LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 27 June, 1985. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY- COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. We are considering Item No. 4.(a)

(1) Child and Family Services, Adm inistrat ion: Salaries ; 5. (a)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairma n, I have asked the Minister whether she would like to make an opening statement. We're starting a new division within her department. MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Minis ter. HON. M� SMITH: Yes, I appreciate the opportunity to hit the highlights in this branch.

Through'84-85, we were involved in the preparation of the new Child and Family Service Act, a culm ination, of course, that was realized when we tabled the act in the Legislature in May of this year. lt's a significant step forward for child and family services with legislation in Manitoba, indeed, in Canada. 1t contains an 11 part decla ratio n of principle, incorporates current legislation which has been clarified and consolidated and contains a num ber of new provisions which will provide for the needs of families today and well into the future.

Every Indian Reserve in Manitoba now has a capacity to provide child and family services. Fifty-eight reserves are served by five child and family service agencies whose head offices are situated within the tribal council jurisdiction, and two reserves provide services by way of bilateral agreements with the Department of Indian and lnuit Affairs. Negotiations have taken place with all reserve-based agencies, in order to establish an off­ reserve child and family service capacity for their band members.

The staff providing off-reserve services will be situated in the newly established Mamawi Wici ltita Centre in Winnipeg. "The centre was established in September of 1984, for the purpose of providing non-statutory services to status and non-status Indian persons, as well as Metis persons living in the City of Winnipeg. The centre's board consists of 12 individuals who were elected by persons declaring themselves to be of aboriginal ancestry.

The Manitoba Foster Parent's Association and the Winnipeg Foster Parent's Association both received funding to hire full-time staff to assist in the impo rtant work of developing provincial foster parents. A key initia tive under way is to develop a curriculum of professional foster parent training courses throughout Manitoba. The Reside nt ial Care Adv isory Co mmit tee has become increasingly active in responding to issues and working with the Child Care Resource Committee of government to resolve outstanding concerns.

A working group comprised of represent atives from the child care field and Child and Family Su pport are currently involv ed in developing program standards. On April 1, 1985, Child and Family Services in Winnipeg came under the di rection of six community based agencies, replacing the former Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg, and substant ially changing the roles of the CAS of Eastern Manitoba, and the services given by the province in Assiniboia /Charleswood.

These agencies were developed to respond to a general lack of com munit y involvement, underdevelopment of family support and preventive services, and an increasingly large number of childr en in care away from their families. Support services to families were restructured to emphasize early support and preventive services over services that relied on placing children in care outside their families. New preventive services were designed to maintain the family unit and include counselling, special day care, homemake rs and parent aides.

Service-specific grants were provided to the new agencies in Winnipeg for outreach, prevention and community development. Specific guidelines were developed and imp lemented in 1984 to ensure that Native childr en in need of alternate care are placed in culturally appropriate settings. The guidelines also require the involvement of Nat ive agencies and organizations in planning for Native children. There have been two other areas in the same division, wife abuse and child day care.

With regard to wife abus e, in 1984, the departme nt was given lead responsibility for co-ordinating services and programs for battered women and their children. As part of the department's response, a respons ibility centre was created through the establishment of a position for a Provincial Co-ordinator of Wife Ab use Programs. Programs in 1984/85 were developed in rural Manitoba through consultation between the department 's regional directors and private organizations interested in services to battered women.

This consultative approach to rural development is the model that a num ber of other provinces are following. As well, the department continued support in Winni peg and Thompson with ongoing support to the Manitoba Committee on Wife Abuse and the Thompson Crisis Shelter respectively. Grants to Wife Abuse Programs in Manitoba by the department for'84-85 totalled $437 ,600.00. In March, there was a multi-media ad campaign against wife abuse. lt employed radio, television, posters and brochures.

The purposes of the campaign were to reduce public tolerance of wife abuse and to inform victims of the availability of services. A Provincial Wife Abuse Workshop was sponsored by the Depart ment at the end of Febru ary. Representatives from the wife abuse groups in the province were invited to an educational workshop. Topics included volunte erism, fund raising , da ta collection and budgeting. 3430

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 Under Child Day Care, a 6 percent increase was approved in 1984/85 for fees, maintenance and start­ up grants for funded day care centres and homes. These monies may be used to pu rchase or upgr ade equipment, assist with program dev elopment and for daily operation. Upgrading grants in the amount of $3,000 for fire and $3,000 for health were made available to funded centres to meet the fire and public health requirements of The Community Child Day Care Standards Act.

These funds were used, in part, to upgrade or purchase new equipment to ensure that children have access to a · wide range of activity centres throughout the day. Child Day Care assumed the responsibility for licensing all child day care centr es and home s throughout the province. For the fir st time, centres providing extended care to meet the needs of shift workers through the provision of evening or 24-hour care were licensed. A record keeper/calendar was distributed through Child Day Care to assist family day care providers in meeting the record keeping requirements of the new legislation.

In co-opera tion with the Canadian Red Cross Society, a safety course for child care workers was developed. A brochure and a series of posters titled Making Safety a Gr owing Concern were di stribute d to centr es th roughout Manitoba. A Child Day Care newsletter was developed for distribution to centres and homes throughout the province. This newsletter is published quarter ly. The Qu alifications Assessment function was established to review qualifications of day care workers to assess at three child care worker levels.

A nine member Qualifications and Review Committee was appointed to advise the Minister on necessary day care staff qualifications and to act as an appeal body for individual day care workers who may disagree with their assigned child care worker level. Man itoba demons tr ated national leadership in proposing to the Federal Government a model Canada Day Care Act which sets quality and accessibility standards for federal funding. An awards dinner was held to celebrate 10 years of day care in Ma nito ba.

This 10 years has seen remarkable growth in day care so that in 1984/85 there are over 13,000 licensed day care spaces - of which 6,000 are provincially funded full-time pre-school; 1,800 provincially-funded school age; and 4,700 part-time pre­ school spaces. Thr ough the Jobs Fund $1.1 million has been allocated to the Child Care Worker Training Program (CCWTP). The program has been designed to assist child care workers, already in the field as of December 31, 1984, in the upgrading of training to meet the requirements outlined under the new Commu nity Child Day Care Standards Act.

Through the program workers are paid their full salaries from the day care while attending classes. Through the Jobs Fund the wages for substitute workers placed in centres are paid. In addition to their salaries, worke rs receive a tr avel allowance and centr es participating in the program receive the cou rse texts. it is estimat ed that nearly 3,000 weeks of employment will be created through the employing of substitute child care workers. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Madam Minister. The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C.

BIRT: Dealing with the administration, could the Minister advise how many salaries are referred to in the $226,400.00? HON. M. SMITH: That figure covers six staff, the same as last year - the ADM, three program analysts, and two secretarial-clerical. MR. C. BIRT: I'll pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm concerned with what the Budget Estimates In this item show, and what they have shown I think in a number of other items.

These Estimates show $243,400 for the year ending March 31, 1985, and show the same number for the year ending March 31, 1986. it would therefore attempt to show to the reader of the Estimates that there has been no increase in the administration costs. If one looks at the Budget Estimates for last year under th is item, Chi ld and Family Services, Administrati on, it shows $143,500 as the amoun t budgeted for this area. The Minister has chosen to show in these Estimates for the year ending March 13, 1985, $243,400, which is an increase of some $100,000 over what was in the Estimates last year.

The figure 243,400 should be 143,500 which was what was in the budget last year. What this means rather than a zero increase in administration, there is actually a 69.3 percent increase in administration; if you go back two years, it's a 126 percent increase in administrat ion. I would ask the Minister why is she trying to mislead the commi ttee? MR. CHAIRMAN: That's an imputation of motive. Madam Minister. HON. M. SMITH: The explanation is the adjustment that's made via the Treasury Board when staff are reassigned or grouped differently.

The adjustment is made because there's no real addition of staff. it's just that they're grouped somewhat differently. A staff year from Vital Statistics, one from Administration and one from Juvenile Corrections was put in this area because the function was more appropriate to the Child and Family Service area. it's a reorganizatio n internally in order to do the work of the department. MR. G. MERCIER: I'm just trying to look back, Mr. Chairman. One was from Vital Statistics? HON. M.

SMITH: Because this area has been involved in a lot of change putting some program analyst capacity and secretarial help in has enabled the department to accomplish the work, but there hasn't been an increase overall. it's been a re-alloc .ation within the department. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'm very concerned about this because it is very misleading. I can recall in any set of Estimates that I dealt with, they never varied from showing what the budget total for the area 3431

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 under consider ation was for the previous year. If there was a tr ansfer into that department or some re organization and it showed an unusually large increase, there was a statement made at the beginning of the Estimat es that accounted for that difference in expenditures. Now, I look back in Vital Statistics for the year ending March 31, 1985, the budget appropriation was 850,000 and you have shown under Vital Statistics in your Estimates this year for the year ending March 31, 1985. 776,900, so there's a difference of some roughly $75,000 decrease in that particular area.

You said that accounted for one person. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Municipal Afffairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the member's question and I think the presentation can be confusing. That's why the reconcilation appears at the beginning of the Estimates for each department which reconciles changes between departments and that was the case when he was a Minister of the Crown as well. Simi larly, although the Honourable Member for St.

Norbert may not recall, the same practice was followed when he. was on the Treasury Bench between '77 and'81 with regard to changes in programs and functions within a specific department and the previous year's Estimates were chan ged to reflect the real ign ment so that members could see any actual changes in program delivery from year to year.

But certain ly, I appreciate that what the member is really looking for is the paper trail of what went down and what went up to produce the same gross total for Community Services in last year's Estimates Book for the year ending March 31st,'85 and in this year's Estimates book for the year ending March 31st, '85.

The gr oss total, su bject to the front page reco ncili at ion, will remain the same, but transfers between branches or sections and functions within lines may have been adjusted and I think the Minister can supply that paper trail, but to suggest that that's in any way misleading the committee is to suggest that his government, which did the same th ing, was misleading, and I'm sure the member wouldn't want to leave that on the record. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I say that it is misleading, certainly to this extent.

I could go along with this if the Minister had given in her remarks some indication of what has happened. What she is doing, fo·r example, in this area, by not saying anything, by changing the figures that were in the Estimates last year without telling the committee, is hiding, for example, what is a gross increase in administr ation costs that have occurred throughout this department, and in this particular

section show an actual increase in administrative costs of 69.3 percent over the previous year; and if you look at it for two years, it's an increase of 126 percent, at the same time that the Minister keeps talking about improving services to people. In fact, services have deteriorated to people, while she embarks upon very signific ant and high incr eases in administration. HON. M. SMITH: This

section is a $68 millio n expenditure without an administrative capacity to analyze the issues to ensure that the expenditur es are indeed in the areas where the high priority need is, that there's accountabili ty, proper planning. There must be some planning cap acity and some evaluat ive capacity or we just simply could not ensure that the budget of the branch was well and truly spent.

There have been quite a lot of changes and planning req uired in this are to ensure that the overall shift to more preventive support services to famil ies could in fact be carried out and carefully monitored, because we've said all along that we wish to, not only put in place a somewhat different system, but we also want to have a capacity to monitor it and see whether our planning is working out as expected and if there are areas where there's some slippage or whatever, where we can move quickly to deal with it.

Proportion ately , tha t type of admin istrativ e expenditure on th at type of bud get item is not disproportionate and I submit it would really be remiss of us not to put a fair bit of central planning and co­ ordination into work of this sort. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, would the Minister confirm th at th ree years ago this admin ist rative structure did not even exist? HON. M.

SMITH: As I pointed out earlier tod ay, one of the problems in social service delivery is that there's been a tendency to have a rather ad hoc reactive type of service where response is given to any group that would sing out for help and there was not adequate ability to see that a coherent program, equitably funded and available across the province was in place, or that there were funding principles and standards that could be sustained over time. I make no apology at all for tr ying to put in pl ace a system th at ha s some compr ehensiveness, that has standards and equitable funding. MR. G.

MERCIER: Will th e Mi nister answer the question? Can she confirm that thr ee years ago this administrative structure and this item did not exist? HON. M. SMITH: I have in front of me the adjusted vote fig ures for'84-85 and'85 -86. The re's been considerable reorganization in this entire department partly because it was operating very much with separate elements th at weren 't properly planne d and co­ ordi nated . it's been our goal to move the whole department to a point where it could, in fact, plan and monitor more effectively.

If, in fact, we have created a planning and monitoring capacity where none existed before to oversee how the public dollar is spent in the effectiveness of program, I would think it's a long overdue change. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Chairman, last year this area of Child and Family Services spent more money in total, 70,279,000, about 2 million more than is shown in this budget. Is she saying th at with a reduction in expenditures of $2 million in this area, you still have to add two or thr ee people and increase administrative costs 69.3 percent? HON. M. SMITH: I'm happy to provide the major detail on the shift.

We had the Juvenile Correct ions in this 3432

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 area last year because we had thought that it would be a better mix with child and family, however, having gone through a review of that alignment, we have decided that it's better to put it back with the Corrections Branch and that, in fact, would account for 6 million out of this appropriation. There was another 500,000 transferred to Manitoba Education as we gradually transferred responsibility for some of the special education programs over to that department. MR. G. MERCIER: So you decrease the responsibility· and incr ease the administr ation, that's what's happened. HON. M.

SMITH: We put capable administration and planning capacity into where there was none before. 1 think that's a simplistic way to evaluate what's going on. MR. G. MERCIER: We'll find out about that. Would the Minister, from now on during her Estimates, undertake to this committee that whenever she has changed the figures from the previous year and in her words reallocated people or moved the people around, would she advise the committee at the beginning of the consideration of that item, so that the committee is not misled by the figures that the Minister is using? HON. M.

SMITH: There is certainly no attempt to mislead, and we'll provide that extra detail as we go along. If I miss any, please remind me and I'll ask the staff to provide the extra detail. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Can the Minister advise what the three program analysts do? HON. M. SMITH: These people have been helping us with initiation of new program thrusts and that calls for initiating, negotiating and analyzing.

We have one who's been working primarily with the Native community in the various program areas; another who's been a general purpose person who's been available to move in where we needed extra work done; we've had another person who's mainly focused on developing the Wife Abuse Programs. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, when the Minister gave her

summary as to what they have been doing in this particular part of her department for the past year, and in looking at what these three new program analysts are doing, I noticed that the Minister did not touch on or make reference to, in either of these aspects, anything dealing with child abuse. I'm wondering if the Minister can advise what program they have in place for child abuse in this province. HON. M. SMITH: We've had a program for about ten years right in the Child and Family Service area. it's been evolving in cooperation with the agency.

So in a sense, because there was a base there, that's where the development work has been going on. Because some of the Native services and the Wife Abuse Programs were relatively new, we needed more analysis at the centre. MR. C. BIRT: What agencies was the department working with in developing these child abuse programs? HON. M. SMITH: The network of child and family service agencies that exist throughout the province and the Child Protection Centre. We've also been working interdepartmentally with Education, the Attorney­ General's Department, Health Department, and the police. MR. C.

BIRT: Is there anyone specifically identified to look after the Child Abuse Program or dealing with certain funds relating to child abuse in this department? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. C. BIRT: Who? HON. M. SMITH: John Chudzik. MR. C. BIRT: How long has Mr. Chudzik been in this position? HON. M. SMITH: Four years. MR. C. BIRT: What is his title? HON. M. SMITH: Co-ordinator of Child Abuse Services. MR. C. BIRT: Is he an ADM or Director - what's his status? HON. M. SMITH: Program Co-ordinator, so he would report to the Director. MR. C. BIRT: What director? HON. M. SMITH: Child Welfare Director.

Pardon me, the Director of Child and Family Support. They changed the title in line with the new act. MR. C. BIRT: Could the Minister advise us just what the status is on this whole area of child abuse? One hears a great deal about it; one hears or sees a series of articles that raise it on an alarming basis, and in fact a series of social workers have advised . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Are we ready to pass (a)? You're talking now I think on (b). MR. C. BIRT: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: No? MR. C. BU:n: I'm advised that it's probably one of the biggest underground social problems that we have today.

I'm wondering if the Minister can just give us sort of a viewpoint from the department's perspective as to the type of problem that we have, and just how big or how small it is. HON. M. SMITH: it's our belief, along with, I guess, other people who have worked in this field, that it's 3433

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 probably been a problem that's been with us for a long time, but it's been underground, because people either weren't aware of it unless they were dir ectly involved, and if they were directly involved there was so many taboos around talki ng about it that often the victims were imprisoned in a - or the family was in an area of silence. I guess, too, because of the evolution of the family and our society, there was a time when what went on in the family was considered completely private, although I wouldn't like to say that all abuse is by a male of a wife and children.

An overwhelming proportion of child abuse is of that sort. For general purposes that's what we're dealing with. There was a longstanding social belief in the right of the male head of the household to control the wife and childr en, that in a sense the community values didn't always recognize if anyone tried to draw attention to the problem.

In fact what we've di scovered , as the enormity of the problem has emerged and we're starting to get more data on it, most of the professionals in the field - and that includes medical people, social workers, psychologists, police - were dealing with the symptoms of child abuse and didn't recognize it. They didn't know how to ask the questions to elicit the responses, so they never really got to the root of the problem.

I guess the department has been dealing with abuse for 10 years , as I said , but their und erstanding or our underst anding of it and our ability to treat it, has also been evolving, and I think quite fairly . it's only been in the last couple of years that the full scope and enormity of the issue has come to light. The response of the government was multi ­ departmental over a year ago. The Departments of Health , Education , the Attorney-General, and our depar tment published guidelines for people working with childr en and families, requiring them to report suspected cases of child abuse.

Up to that point in tim e, many people who suspected it were often afraid to report, because the onus of proof was on them and they felt they might be liable if they had made an incorrect report. So in order to deal with the first round of defence, we put out guidelines that first obliged people to report suspected case s, then protected the m from any personal liabili ty, and tried to set out some of the guidelines, both to protect confidentiality and also to protect the childr en.

That's been an evolving issue and the new act carries stronger legislation and it will be clearer legislation, clearer, stronger regulations to deal with the problem. The public awareness has been one element; the understanding of the pyschological aspects of it; what is it that has led men to behave this way; what has led women and childr en to submit to abus e without speaking up or escaping from it, I think go to the heart of certainly how men and women perceive themselves and their relationsh ips.

So to get to the very heart of it and be preventive, I guess we're trying to build on attitudes of respect and mutual caring and support. rather have hierarchy of control and authority in a family, a more egalitarian family . The next round is to provide the supports in the communi ty, whether it be the teachers, the social workers, the neighbours. to bring them to the point where they feel some obligation to protect children in their neighbourhood and to report.

Then we get into the question of the police and the law; then the emergency treatment care, first line is usually the medical system and the counsellors. and then of course on to the follow-up treatm ent that's required. We had made quite a lot of gain here on the medical emergency crisis service.

The people who have acquired expertise in that area are being used to teach other people in their field to understand and deal with the crisis service and we're using the same approach with the follow-up treatment, for both the child and the abuser and the total family. it's not a kind of problem where we felt we could build up a huge parallel bureaucracy to match or to go alongside our current child and family system.

We felt what we must do is help the people who are working in the system to acquire the insights and the skills, so we've done a lot of training and will continue to do, so that the whole network of people who come in contact with children and families are better able, first to prevent, but then hopefully to deal with the abuse early on and seek out the best treatment. I think we all admit we're at the early stage of understanding how best to handle the situation.

We have had about 700 cases reported this year, which is about the same level as last year for physical abuse, but at least in the reported cases, sexual abuse is still increasing. We're glad that the reporting is going on and that may be all that we're seeing. it's hard to know whether the incidents are increasing, but we've naturally had concerns about pornography and explicit video and so on, that often depicts childr en in sexually abusive situations. So, to be quite honest, we're saying we don't really know all the cause-effect linka ges.

All we know is that we must build the strength of children and their ability to report situations to adults who can help them, and give them some of the tools to protect themselves. At the same time we need to try and see whether the media message that the y are receiving and that young women and men are receiving, is perhaps aggravating the problem rather than reducing it. it's a complex problem and I think it's one we're not going to really feel confident that we have the answers to for some time to come.

But I think there's a concerted effort by all the disciplines and the community at large to take the prob lem seriously and try to deal with it. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister tell the committee whether or not there is an increase in staff to deal with the problem of child abuse? HON. M. SMITH: There are more workers in the field in the whole child and family area. They are receiving better training to deal with this type of problem.

We have more flexible use of resources now so we could put in homemakers or family counsellors or provide day care which is often the first line of protection and re-ed ucation. We have not chosen the path of build ing up a completely parallel system to deal with child abuse alone because. for one thing, I don't think we could find enough resources, and secondly, I think it would be an illusion to think that it's best dealt with in isolation from all the other child and family issues that are out there. We're using, I guess, a multipr onged approach. 3434

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has cited the statistics of which we're all aware about the increasing number of cases of child abuse. What increase in expenditur es has occurred to directly deal with the problem of child abuse? What can she point to in this budget? HON. M. SMITH: I think the detail would show up better under 4.(b).

However, basically what's happened and we get to the detail because we've been phasing out the group homes - we found them less effective - that a lot of the money has been going into the family suppor t · and the preventive services because we're raising the awareness and the skills of all our workers out there. In a sense, you could say that each worker is going to spend somewhat more of their time on these issues and with somewhat better skills, rather than say that we've added 12 people to be specialists in this field. MR. G. MERCIER: We can deal with the detail, I suppose, Mr. Chairman, under 4.( b).

What the Minister is saying, certainly the impr ession she's leaving with me is that the government is not adding anything in the way of any effort to specifically deal with the problem of child abuse. Is she saying that the existing perso nnel are going to have to stop looking after some areas and do a little bit more in the area of child abuse so that what is going to happen, obviously , is that some other areas are going to suffer or else there is no real intention or effort to deal with a very growing and serious problem? HON. M.

SMITH: Again, when we get to the detail, we'll be able to show how money is being reallocated from one area to the other. This system doesn't just build one on top of another like bricks. We have been reducing the expenditure in one area which we found less effective and using that money in other areas, (1) for more staff, (2) to impr ove the skill and the networking so the co-operative impact of all the people in the field, and there have been many educational workshops held this year to increase the skills and insights of the people in the field.

That is a much more efficient and effective way to deal with the problem than to bring in an abuse squad of a dozen people and have them flying around. Once you deal with the initial trauma of abuse, you're into deal ing with the family and the long er-term treatment and the varying needs that families present. Appropr iation 4.(b)(4) has gone up by almo st 2 million and we'll give a list of the initiatives when we get there. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)(1)- the Member for Fort Garr y. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, a concern one has is that the Minister has not dealt with any specific allocation of resources.

One of the big concerns is to understand exactly what the question of abuse is amongst children. lt's a problem that is there. The Minister has said that there has been an ongoing problem for some 10 years, but the concern that I have is that there is no educational program in pl ace to help the commu nity either understand it or come to grips with it. I notice that there is no advertising allo cated anywhere throughout, so this is why I have to ask this question now. There's no mone y allo cated to, it's cal led promotion or other similar things like this.

That disturbs me because in asking in some of the other areas none of this was referred to and it seems to me that if you want the people to understand it, whether they be children, they be adults, they be neighbourhood people who could recognize this, that the Minister should be spending money in public education, whether it be radio, print, television to make sure that people are aware of the problem and what they can do. HON. M. SMITH: The member may recall the Abuse Hurts campaign and the posters; I'll be happy to bring those down to remind them.

We also have 50,000 in this year's budget to carry on with that campaign. The education system has been using the "Feeling Yes, Feeling No" play that has been going around to the schools. lt's a very good way of helping youngsters understand how to protect themselves.

Also a lot of the work that's been done both through Status of Women activities and through educational activities to change male stereotyping and female stereotypi ng, so that males no longer value the mselves and their role in the world by domination of other people and exercise of force, but come to see them selves as people capable of more sensitive and respectful behaviour , at the same time, trying to overcome the female stereotyping that to be submissive is to be an appro priately female person trying to get to a more balanced view of both male and female personali ty.

As a government, it moved on classifying video and so on to try to enable families to be a little more selective in what their children see and read. We've also moved through the law system to be harsher on abusers and to raise the profile of this type of behaviour . lt's a complex problem that's related to deep social and cultural values and also to the extent that family ties and community supports and economic security are weakened, I guess the hypothesis is that you're more likely to get this kind of disturbed behaviour . MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, where would one find a reference to the $50,000 that the Minister just referred to when the ongoing program? HON. M. SMITH: Within the 4.(b), the subcomponents and the reworking of a pamphlet which we've had, development of resource list and fact sheet and so on. MR. C. BIRT: I just wanted to know where I could refer to it. What grouping was this? HON. M. SMITH: 4.(b). MR. C. BIRT: 4.(

b) what? HON. M. SMITH: 4.(b)(2). MR. CHAIRMAN: Other Expenditures, 4.(b)(2). MR. C. BIRT: Is the Minister saying that is the only money that is being allocated to the advertising program on child abuse - $50,000 for the coming year? HON. M. SMITH: We have the basic work done. If I could describe the sort of thing that we're doing you'll 3435

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 see how the money will build on what's been done. There is a pamphlet and it will be reworked. There will be a resource list and a fact sheet developed and updated. They will be more broadly distributed. There'll be a rework ing of five bo ok lets on protocols for professionals that are already in place and out in the field but which will be updat ed and, again, spread more widely. Development of a colouring book for elementary school childr en based on the "Feeling Yes, Feeling No" play, things that help a child recognize an undesirable or dangerous situation.

We expect to have very wide distribution of that. There' ll be revisions to the existing audio-visual materials, expanding the information on the guidelines to conv ey a more compr ehensive view of child abuse. There will be more manuals for use by profes sionals, the police, medical, child care workers, legal, personnel and housing people. 1t will include the legislation and reporting requirements and so on. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, the list of items that the Minister referred to just now, I think, is at best only a tentative first step because if the Minister's figures are correct that there were about 700 cases reported last year, 700 the year before, and if there's a suspicion that that is merely the tip of the iceberg, I question how pamp hlets, booklets - I can appr eci ate the colouring booklet - but how a lot of this can get into the hands of the people, whether they be children or people in the neighbou rhood , what signals to look for, what one should be aware of.

I'm thinking now of more of a rad io-television advertising campaign and they are expensive, I can appreciate, but why, with the shifting of resources, some provision hasn't been made to identify in the public's mind, this type of a problem.

I can appreciate there are several ways of attacking it, but that would make a quick visual impact and probably you'd have to run it for two to three years and you would support it with the type of information that the Minister's referring to; but those, it seems to me, would be the . . . someone would recognize something on the television or hear it on the radio and then they might see a pamphlet that would pick it up and that would add to the knowledge. I'm wondering why the government doesn't put some dollars into what I would call an effective advert ising campaign. HON. M.

SMITH: I find it strange to, one night, be told we are advert ising too much and the next we're not advertising enough. We are doing some advert ising in the family violence area via radio and TV. In this case, we felt the first round of people we had to meet were the professional worker groups out there who deal with the childr en every day. The teachers are the ones who are probably in contact with more of the kids more of the time so we spent a lot of time - and perhaps that's been brought out a bit in the Department of Education Estimates - reaching out to teachers and educating them as to the danger signs.

We've also then dealt with our social workers, with the police, with doctors. Protocols are now developed because they are the people who are more likely to be in a position to be seeing the symptoms but not, in the past, having known the meaning of them. Not all television advertising hits the population you want. When we were dealing with wife abuse, we felt that radio and TV were the best media to reach the woman.

When we're dealing with children we felt that the schools were the better avenue and that's why we've spent, as a government, a lot of time wo rking through the teachers and schools to reach the children in a way that wasn't just terrifying to the children, but was a way where you could alert them to some of the dangers, but do it in a way that didn't make them distrustful or terrified of any adult. it's not necessarily a topic that's best dealt with on a broad brush public media but, as the program evolves, we'll certainly be keeping that in mind.

We've been sharing a lot of information with other jurisdictions across the country and trying to learn from other people's experience. In some cases, we've been out ahead and done the pilot work. In other cases, other provinces have, but I'm very happy to hear the support for communication on this topic because I agree that we have to use any and all means to deal with it. MR. C. BIRT: The Minister won't get any quarrel from me on this type of advertising.

If you want to talk about the allocation of scarce resources into what type of advert ising programs the government undertakes, I'm prepared to do that, but I hardly think it's the appropriate spot to be entering into political debate on the merit s of self-pro motion as opposed to imp rovement of communit y standards and community health. I would just ask the Minister - there seems to be a reluctance to go to a large public impact in selling the story or at least trying to communic ate the story of child abuse.

The Minister tells the reaso ning behind the direction of wife abuse and I don't think the public out there really quite understands the extent and nature of this problem and I think you almost have to hit them between the eyes to make them aware of it. I can appreciate that the method of try ing to deal with this problem is through the schools, the police and the hospitals is an effective one, but I think we have to, like in so many other areas, once you recognize the problem, you have to raise the public conscience level.

I was just wondering, as the Minister makes reference to working with other jurisdictions, is it foreseeable that they will be perhaps using an ad campaign, either on television or on radio where both, say, during the current fiscal year, between now and March 31st of next year? HON. M.

SMITH: it's because this has been an issue that's hit the awareness of the public right across North America that we've had shown in this area a film "Something About Amelia" and there's another one - I can't just recall the name at the moment - which have dramatiz ed the problem very, very effectively and we always get quite a rush of reporting following that so, in a sense, I'm quite agreeing with you that it's a very effective medium. One of the frightening aspects of it though is that people didn't know what to do with it when their child 3436

Thursday, 27 June, 1$85 did report, so the cry came up from all our professional people, (1) help us recognize, and (2) help us figure out how to deal with it, because when you're dealing with children, you're often dealing with a very young and vulnerable mind and a person without the sophistication always to know quite what's happening with them. But I think if you could see the networking and the increasing consciousness that's gone on in the past two years really has been quite extensive.

Just about every in-service training that's gone on for people in all the key disciplines has included major sections on · this. I know that we've had police specialists working with us, medical specialists and social work specialists, so that I guess the increased capacity to deal with it has been very much the heightening of the awareness and the skill of the people in the field.

The Badgley Commission, which did a review right across the country of the question of sexual abuse of children and the law and so on, was of the opinion that Manitoba's program was the most progressive right across the country, at the same time as they recognized that much more needed to be done right across the country. In some cases it was change in the law; and rules of evidence and so on; in others it was social change and support services. Do you recall the posters "Abuse Hurts" that we launched about a year ago, with the little girl with a rather sad look on her face?

We've been using those posters and a lot of pamplets. MR. C. BIRT: Yes, I'm familiar with them and I recognize them for what they were, are, and what they were attempting to do. I wonder though for the vast majority of people, if it just wasn't confused with a series of other children's programs or children's support programs.

The Minister has indicated that for the last two years there's been this great emphasis on trying to put into place a professional reporting or discovery system through teachers, through police, and every1hing else like this. 1t seems strange that if you put all of that into place for the last two years, your statistics would stay about the same, because I don't think 700 reported cases is really the true dimension of the story, and it just seems strange that there's been a concentrated effort or at least there would appear to be a concentrated effort in this area, yet the number of reported cases hasn't gone up.

I'm wondering if there's any explanation for it. Is there still far more intensive training and development work to be done before this advisory community support program, whether it be teachers, medical people or police, is effective? HON. M. SMITH: The overall incidence and reporting of phsycial abuse is levelling off, but we're still seeing an increase in the sexual abuse. To give you some idea of the figures from 1980 to 1984, we're seeing 236 in 19 80; 330 in 1981; 402 in 1982; 578 in 1983; 693 in 19 84.

So we are getting a steady increase and whether there are many other situations where preventive actions we're taking are keeping kids out of harm's way, I guess we don't know. That's part of the problem of keeping slats in social areas, because if something doesn't happen and doesn't get reported, you don't learn that someone was able to avoid a situation because they'd had an educational program. On the other hand, I guess you'd follow an intuitive rule. You know that children tend to be better able to protect themselves if they've had some good attitudinal and sort of specific type of education ahead of time.

The sexual abuse numbers- I'll just give you the run up there: 1980, 51; 19 81, 104; 19 82, 11 3; 19 83, 199; 19 84, 297, so that's still a pretty steep increase. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b )(1) - there are two hands. The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since we are on this particular topic and I suppose that we might as well finish this discussion and maybe we don't have to touch on it later on, at least not spend a great deal of time on it.

I think first of all, where the Minister possibly is receiving some mixed vibrations on the communication end of it in this particular area, is that we possibly feel that communication - and that there is so very little in the budget, first of all, for child abuse - is taking up a good portion of it. That's not meaning to say that people should not be advised and should not be educated in this particular area. But what will we do after the abuse has been reported? This is another area of concern.

I would just like to say that the way we are treating, especially sexual abuse, can be what you would call a little roughshod and so on. I know, for instance, in my particular area that I represent, there have been two suicides where the head of the family shot themselves as a result of the RCMP coming over and they were going to arrest them because of sexual abuse of a child. Now there is no way that we can condone sexual abuse of children; there just isn't.

But there must be a better way than sending down the RCMP to deal with this case, because surely they are not trained in that particular area, and unless we start training the offender in a different way than what we are - because I've been told, I've had fairly long discussions with the RCMP because of the incidents that we've had - and usually the first tendency that the offender has is to commit suicide, because once they are found out they feel pretty bad about this and it's very traumatic experience for them.

I'm just wondering whether the Minister is aware of what is happening out there and what is going to be done about this situation. Surely, we will have to deal with this in a different manner. If we have two such instances in my area, then I imagine that it must be pretty well the same throughout the province. HON. M.

SMITH: You put your finger on a potential problem that if we hype this situation to where we have the whole community up in arms about child abuse, part of the community will say this is dreadful how do we prevent it and treat peop(e so that they come through and the victims no longer are suffering from guilt and all the trauma that they have and that the abusers learn a better way to handle themselves and go on to live reasonable lives, and the other half of the community are likely to come out with citizen posses out to kill the people who are doing this type of thing. 3437

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 We're dealing with a social problem that is very complex, that we all have a share in dealing with. Everyone in a sense has a role to play. We agree that the RCMP are probably not well enough trained. The City Police, on the other hand, have developed a special unit and we've been very pleased with the Winnipeg City Police, very pleased with the co-operation we've been getting from them in the individuals that they've put on to the situation. This is one reason that we've emph asized the need for training of the people who are going to be dealing with this issue. What do you do?

Do you get angry and shame someone and say no, no don't do it? Do you treat it as a crime and put them in jail and we don't know how to treat them there and they come out and do it again, or do we try to develop treatment? We probably need all the se approaches but it's not something that you gear up to rapid ly. We're trying to do it in a very responsible way with all the different groupings involved. This year we have two addi tional child abuse specialist workers in the Children's Aid network in Winnipeg and the whole unit has been deployed to the new agencies.

We're appointing a second co-ordinator for Winnipeg. The ad is in proc ess. There have been ongoing workshops, as I said, throughout the province and I know the re's people in chur ches and com munity groupings and schools and so on who are all interested in becoming more aware and helpful. The Parent Aid Program has been used to support the abusing parent, to try to move in and deal with the very trauma that you're describing. Our special foster parents are being trained in helping abused childr en.

We are opening a new four-bed rural foster home especially for abused adole scents, and we've been working on special training for day care workers so that they could identify child abuse and deal with the first contact. I agree, it's not a problem that we're quickly going to solve. You've put your finger on the problem. I'd be interested in what solution you would see to that very situation.

In the long run, we have to change the community values to the point where this would not be tolerated and where people who have tendencies that way understand that they can't get away with it in secret and that they will be discovered and, hopefully, I guess seek out extra help if that's what they need. lt's not a simple problem that we can elim inate just by putting one or two more specialists on the track of the problem. · I think the right spot is that it's now out of the closet. it's recognized as problem and the community has said we will not tolerate it. it's possible that years ago people would have said maybe the kid asked for it, or it's his family he can do with them what he wants.

I think there has been a shift in community value and that is the most hopeful sign we've got. At the same time, we've got a lot of media messages showing violence and exploitation of women and of children. We've got a society that, in a sense. has got a lot more of both the humane value and the violent values and it's not a dilemma we're easily going to work ourselves through. MR. A. BROWN: I think, Mr. Chairman, that we are going about it in the correct way.

We're using the various facilities in the community in alerting people that parents or whoever accused of child abuse that somewhere along the line they're going to be identified and they're going to be punished. I think that certainly we can step up that program of awareness. I don't think that there is any problem there because this needs to be done and people ought to know that sooner or later they're going to be found out if there is going to be child abuse.

In the case that I was referring to, sexual abuse by a father or a mem ber of the family or whatever, it seems to me that the only people that we could possibly call on would insist on psychiatric treatment possibly before the person was asked to serve a term in jail or whatever. There could be professional counselling of some type. lt seems to me that this would be the only way really that we could treat cases such as that and prevent the type of incide nces that I was referring to. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr.

Chairman, I have a question related somewhere along the same lines, and without dimi nishing the problem in any way that we know is out there, what is the feeling of the department and on the abuse for spanking which many families use as a sort of last resort and still feel this is a proper way to bring up young childr en? What happens when that type of incident is reported? HON. M. SMITH: I think if there were bruises and broken bones and a frightened little kid who seemed to be behaving badly in other settings and doctors could find bru ises and so on, th en it wou ld be considered excessive.

If it's the occasional swat when words seem to be ineffective and temp ers run high and so on and done probably more in love with some exasperation rather than in anger and attempt to harm a child, those would be the di fferences. I don't think the

definitions of physical abuse are so loose that a casual spanking would come under that label. When there's doubt, the courts would decide. MRS. G. HAMMOND: If it was reported at a school level, the child said they'd been hit at a school level and not say reporting on parents particularly, then would there be a team or social worker go into the home. I'm not talki ng about bones broken or anything; I'm talking about family discipline the way it works today. I'm just wondering what happens in these situations with families. HON. M.

SMITH: I think unless there's actual evidence of physical abuse, that if someone were reporting maybe malicious or maybe well-meaning, a teacher would just watch a youngster and if their behaviour seemed to be reasonably normal and no outward signs of trouble, it would just be put down as within the normal range. I think it's where you get a child who lashes out at other children or seems very angry or depressed, withdrawn. That might not be the only explanation, but it would be one clue among several. Usually with physical abuse there has to be actually some sign that a doctor could detect.

The sexual abuse, of course, is a harder thing to get at. because of the ta boos that have been associated 3438

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 with it, and you know the child is not mature enough to even understand what's happening really. Family counselling would be the response rather than an escalation to reported abuse. I think anyone who works with youn gsters has got a pretty wide tolerance level for normal ways of interrelating, but it 's when there's repeated and extreme problems. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I was curious because when you get a program like this going and everyone is conscious and everyone is looking, you know it makes you just wonder if in circumstances that people will get falsely · accused and just happens in th ese circumstances. I really don't want to go on with that, because I'm certainly in favour of the whole program. I was just curious about that. I would like to ask about the wife abuse. Did I understand the Minister to say that there's a program development officer? MR. CHAIRMAN: That will be under (

e) Family Dispute Services. MRS. G. HAMMOND: No, I'm ask ing about the programs. it's not in this area at all then? HON. M. SMITH: (

e) Family Dispute Services. MRS. G. HAMMOND: So you just want to deal with it there? HON. M. SMITH: I'm not too concerned, but it usually makes it easier. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)( 1)- the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: 4.(b)( 1)? MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, 4.(a)( 1). MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to hold up this particular area, but I do owe the Minister an apolo gy. it would appear, after consultation with the Government House Leader, that other governments have follo wed this same practice of changing the item, so I apologize to her to that extent that it has been done before.

At the same time, I think, even though I may even have done it as a Minister ... HON. M. SMITH: I agree. We'll both agree to try provide the information. MR. G.

MERCIER: . . . but certainly not deliberately. 1t would be much better for the comm ittee to make much better consideration of the Estimates if there were explanations, which I understand is done through some depar tments with supp lementar y budg et information that shows the changes that have taken place, because it is, although not deliberate ly, a little misleading when someone looks at the budget to see a change in the figu res when there really has been a change in personnel or manpower or priorities. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HON. M. SMITH: I just want to acknowledge that.

I can appreciate the problem and I think in a department like this where there's been quite a lot of reo rganization that that's probably particularly true. So we'll provide the extra wherever it's appropriate. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: I would like to thank the Minister for that because previous No. 3. Community Social Services has a number of lines deleted or reduced,

whereas this particular section, No. 4, it has been added, so it's a little difficult to try and translate from what happened last year, and even if we go through the Votes and Proceed ings and the Estimates as to what they actually were referring to, because you'v e got a different mix this time. it tends to be a little frustrat ing. HON. M. SMITH: I can give you the reason why that's happened without the detail. The reason has been that we had a lot of grants to different agencies for a variety of things under Community Service before, but no program respo nsibility centre.

What we're trying to do is gr adually put all the grants under a program responsibility area so, in fact, they can compare the type of service, the type of funding, and get a more coordina ted system. That's the reason for it. MR. C. BIRT: 4.(a)- pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)(1)- pass: 4.(a)(2)- pass. 4.(b)

(1) Child and Family Support: Salaries; 4.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures; 4.(b)

(3) Maintenance of Children; 4.(b)

(4) External Agencies - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, the area I'd like to spend some time on is 4.(2), and there's been, it would appear, not quite 100 percent increase in the figure from last year to this year. I'm wondering if we could have a breakdown as to what it is and the amount that's being spent on each particular item, because the Minister referred to the advert ising campaign, I think for the child abuse thing, the $50,000 would be found in here. So if I could at least have a breakdown, I could maybe target there.

While that's being perhaps pulled, could the Minister advise the number of people who were involv ed in the Salaries category. HON. M. SMITH: I have both sets of infor mation. There are 30 people in the Salaries grouping; there were 29 last year - there's one Director; two Deputy Dir ectors; the Agency Support Group has gone from thr ee to four; four in the Resou rce Team, unchanged; 14 in the Administrativ e Support Group; and five term persons.

The Other Expenditur es, the increased are $50,000 for activity related to family violence, communic ation activity; $20,000 allocated for increase in legal fees for warrants resulting from The Yo ung Offenders Act; $165,000 for Phase 11 of the Management Information System, which we said was an essential part of managing the more decentralized del ivery system. We had to have a have a parallel management information system so we could keep track; and $20,000 for funding a Child Care Con ference. 3439

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 MR. C. BIRT: If my arithmetic's correct, that's just the increase over last year. Is that correct? I'm wondering what is the balance of funds being expended? HON. M. SMITH: Office and travel costs for that group. MR. C. BIRT: Some .5 million is being spent, is that what the Minister is saying on office and travel costs? HON. M.

SMITH: Well, it's for the people who are responsible developing the standards of child welfare; evaluation of all these services - seeing that they are provided in accordance with the act; supervison of wards; insuring the development of placement resources for children; maintaining the Central Adoption Registry for the province; and it's the central focal point for the Child Abuse Program. The big ticket items here are $365,000 for the compu ter-related charges on the whole information system, and $173,000 for commun ications. MR. C.

BIRT: Of the $1 73,0 00 worth of commun ications, is that including or excluding the $50,000 that was referred to? HON. M. SMITH: That's inclusive, so the $50,000 has been added to last year's $1 23,000.00. MR. C. BIRT: Could the Minister give a breakdown as to how that $1 73,000 is being spent and the amounts for each? HON. M. SMITH: I don't have the specific detail other than to say it goes for all the forms and pamphlets, foster parent networks, because as you can appreciate, there's quit e an accounting activity - and commun ication, and of course training package that goes on here. MR. C.

BIRT: Is there any money - of the $17 3,000 - being used for radio advertising? HON. M. SMITH: We had the wife abuse program last year, but we aren't planning any specific radio campaign this coming year. MR. C. BIRT: Any monies being expended on television in this forthcoming year? HON. M. SMITH: No. MR. C. BIRT: Any money being spent on print media? I'm thinking now of the newspapers. I'm not thinking here of just ads in the newspaper for recruitment or things like this. I'm talking about newspaper ads to promote programs. HON. M.

SMITH: No, we focus mainly on pamphlets and publicizing the new act and newsletters and that type of thing. There's no big media. MR. C. BIRT: The Minis ter, in giv ing me initia l breakdown of the increase, said there was $1 65,000 for Phase 11 Information Package. I presume that's a comput er-type thing. Is that inclusive of the figure of the $365,000 or is that in addition to $365,000.00? HON. M. SMITH: The $365,000 was the cumulative but the $1 65,000 is new this year within that. MR. C.

BIRT: Can the Minister explain what the information to her Phase 11 Program is, and is it something that's going to go over two, three, four, five years? HON. M. SMITH: We're one year into a three-year process, so there will be this year and one more, and we're putting all the data - we have to keep registries of all the children that are in the child and family system and process the cheques and so on for payment. We have to monitor children regularly too, to see that their permanency planning and all this is being carried out in a timely way.

We have adoption registry, the children in care, the foster home registry and the abuse registry. MR. C. BIRT: Will some or all of this be there on an annual basis or is some of this the phasing in? In other words, it's sort of like a capital expenditure and then will reduce after the three-year program is in place. HON. M. SMITH: The system should function at around $300,000 a year, but the way that will get allocated, it may be charged back to some of the agencies who will access it and so on. If you look at the province­ wide system, that would be the ongoing operating cost. MR. C.

BIRT: With the six new child and family agencies, is it the intention that there would be one of these comput ers or computer terminals in each of their offices, and it would come into a central registry system? Is that the idea? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. C. BIRT: What is being done for the rural areas? Are they being tied into the same system? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister give me a breakdown of the general line of maintenance of children? What are we talking about? HON. M. SMITH: The child and family services are provided by 24 child caring agencies.

This is made up of six regional offices where direct service is given; five Children's Aid Societies; five Child and Family Service Agencies; one Native Child and Family Service Agency; four Native Child and Family Service committees, the Mamawi Wici ltita Centre; the Churchill Health Centre. There are also 47 groups and five child care institutions. MR. C. BIRT: I'm sorry, you said 47 other group homes? HON. M. SMITH: 47 group homes and five child care institutions. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, according to the figures before us, it would appear that maintenance for the 3440

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 children is decreased some, $1.5 million. Could the Minister explain why this sum has gone down? HON. M. SMITH: Sorry, a little correction there - we have four child care Institutions. You asked me why something had gone down and I missed - the residential care? MR. C. BIRT: No, the maintenance of children has gone down approximately $1. 5 million over last year. Why? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, okay. There's been a shift in the service pattern, away from group home care towards more foster care and homemaker service support in the family unit, and that basically accounts for the difference. MR.

C. BIRT: Is all of this saving then because of closure of group homes? Is that what the Minister said, and if so, how many were closed? HON. M. SMITH: I have the numbers of beds that we've had: '83-84, 615 ;'84-85, 52 1 ;'85-86, 427, but I can't give you the precise number of homes that that represents. In some cases it down scaled the numbers in a home. MR. C. BIRT: Is it the anticipation that during this fiscal year, there will be further closures or at least reduction in beds as well? HON. M. SMITH: There will be some, but the basic shift has occurred. MR. C.

BIRT: The number left, are we talking about foster homes or is it a group home that was operated 24 hours a day with management people in it? HON. M. SMITH: Basically, the shift staffed group homes that have closed. MR. C. BIRT: With the closure of the number of beds, where have these children been placed? HON. M. SMITH: Primarily in foster homes. Level 1 care we have reduced to zero because they felt they would all do better in the group homes and there's been some reduction in Levels 2, 3 and 4 as well. Meanwhile, the numbers in the receiving home category have gone up.

That's where the youngsters are first taken In and assessed in terms of need and appropriate placement. MR. C. BIRT: Has the department been able to find sufficient, either foster homes or alternative care type situations to replace the group home situation or are you developing some resistance or an inability to find new foster homes? HON. M. SMITH: To date we're been successful.

We started with a policy of trying to close down for the under 12s and with the over 12 s we were watching the use level by the agencies, in other words, their choice of a group home placement over against something else, so we're just gradually reducing it, if, as and when the agencies are not choosing that placement. We are finding foster homes. We are gradually increasing those rates and there are problems from time to time that occur in that system but, by and large, it's showing a great strength. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, does Mainentenance of Children include the funding to the Child Protection Centre? HON. M. SMITH: it's under 4.(b)

(4) External Agencies. MR. G. MERCIER: Under this area, what is the increase in the grant to - I'm going to have difficulty say it - Mamawi Wici ltita Centre? HON. M. SMITH: Did you ask for the increase or the grant? MR. G. MERCIER: The amount for last year and the amount this year. HON. M. SMITH: We've allocated or earmarked a million, of which a half will be given in a Core grant to the centre and the other half is drawable through the agency's purchasing service. MR. G. MERCIER: How much did they receive last year? HON. M.

SMITH: lt was approximately $200,000 for last year. lt just developed during the year and got itself incorporated and the Native Family Service that we were funding before wound down and then this centre took over what they were doing and acquired funding; but we could get the more precise number later, but it's in the neighbourhood of 200. MR. G. MERCIER: Why has it gone from $200,000 to $1 million? HON. M. SMITH: lt was non-existent; it was the twinkle in nobody's eye a year ago and in the course of the year, the agreement to handle the Native service delivery in this way was worked through.

This is a non-statutory agency. They can't do adoptions and the legal things, but they are able to deal with families who refer themselves there or who require things like family counselling, parent aid, that type of service, so the rate at which - we said that they would be funded at the level of $1 million a year, but last year was just pro­ rated because they only really got incorporated late in the year. MR. G. MERCIER: Is it an int egral part of the reorganization of the Children's Aid Society, along with the six regional . HON. M.

SMITH: lt is not one of the regions; it is a family service group that is available to provide service 3441

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 to Native people, either if they chose or if the agencies wish to use them, and it will have particular close ties with the three agencies where the Native population is greatest, the Core, the central, the North. lt's something like the Family Services Agency of Winnipeg that does homemak er, day care, some special programs, but doesn't do the statutory thing, so it'll have that type of relationship. Any agency can buy service from Family Services and by the same token, people can self refer for services or the other agencies can buy service for it and it will have mainly Native staff.

MR. G. MERCIER: What is the amount allocated for the operation of the six regional offices? HON. M. SMITH: lt's because I have all these CASs of Child and Family Service agencies of the whole province together here, but the Winnipeg ones, CAS of Eastern, 377 - these are the admin grants, and then they also get money for workers on top of that. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I want to know the total cost of operation of the six regional agencies and I want a comparison with the cost of operating the Children's Aid Society. I want to know how much more it's going to be costing. MR.

CHAIRMAN: We'll have the figures shortly. Madam Minister. HON. M. SMITH: I have the administrative grants and the staffing grants for each of the six and if you'll wait a moment we'll have it totalled. About half of the child maintenance amount of 17 million will go to Winnipeg because, on the one hand, we fund the administration and the staff and then, on the other, as the children come into care depending upon the type of care they charge us for the child maintenance. There are two sides to the funding. MR. G. MERCIER: The Minister must have the previous cost of operating the Children's Aid Society? HON. M.

SMITH: The comparative figures are roughly 7.1 million from last year up to 8.9 million this year. The increase that can be attributed to the regionalization are four executive directors 208,000; 4 secretaries 80,000; additional space 109.6; for a total of 397.6; plus a salary guarantee 48.3 totalling 445.9. MR. G. MERCIER: What was that? HON. M. SMITH: Comparable to what's done often in the Civil Service when a transfer is made and a person is overclassified for the new job, they're guaranteed a salary at the previous level for two years and then they revert to the salary level of the job.

We had over 200 people moving around and negotiated as what we thought was a reasonable way of relocating them. There has been additio nal funding granted to the new agencies to support the new thrusts of prevention, outreach and affirmative action. That's in the form of 19 .5 new positions wit h their salaries for 705.5; community outreach 598.3; and training 120,000. MR. G. MERCIER: What's involved in the community outreach of 597,000? HON. M.

SMITH: lt's the work that will be done in the resource centres, family therapy, the preventive family support type of activity that's not directly chargable, like a homemaker or a parent aid. lt's the help given to families as the first line of defence, I guess you'd say. MR. G. MERCIER: There are only 19 more staff plus four executive directors plus secretaries? HON. M. SMITH: That includes the four, I'm sorry. Sorry, it was misleading the way I read it. The four executive directors and four secretaries are eight of the 19.5 new positions.

Then there's 11 .5 that will directly support prevention, outreach and affirmative action. MR. G. MERCIER: lt's just a little unclear, Mr. Chairman. The Min ister said orig inally that there were four executive directors who are going to cost over $200,000 and four secretaries were going to cost 80,000 and then she went on to say that there were 19 staffpersons who were going to cost $705,000.00. Now she's saying the four executive directors and the four secretaries are included in the 19 staff. HON. M. SMITH: lt was misleading the way I read it - if I can clarify.

The additional costs that were due to regionalization are just under 450,000 and the components of that are the four executive directors, four secretaries and some additio nal space. The additional funding that was granted to the new agencies to support prevention, outreach and affirmative action was 11 .5 new positions, not 19 - that was the error - for 705.5; community outreach 598.3; and training 120. The salary amount too includes the 3 percent salary increase for'83-84. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is the Minister now saying that the additional 11 staffpersons over and above the four executive di rectors and secretaries are costing $705,000? HON. M. SMITH: No, of the 705.5 increase in salary, it included a 3 percent across the board for everyone from the 19 83-84 salary increase that didn't get into last years, because of the timing of the agreement. The other, 489, would be the 11 .5 new positions. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said that the offices were going to cost $1 09,000.00. I think she's just talking about four executive directors and secretaries.

What is the cost of the additional space required as a result of this reorganization, total space? HON. M. SMITH: That is the amount that the cost is over what we were paying for space before. That's the incremental cost. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, is there a central coordinating group over and above, or in some way coordinating activities of the six regional organizations. 3442

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 HON. M. SMITH: There's been an implementation working group that's had representation from each area, which will keep functioning as long as it is needed. it's been reviewing the functions which were better done in a coordinated way and determining how they were to carry on.

There is also a coordination through policy and moni toring of policy and standards through the directorate, and of course through the information management, so in a sense there is the legislative control and coordination from the directorate, and then at the local level this implementation working group will complete. As long as there are coordinating functions that haven't been spun off in some way that's satisfactory to all the agencies, it will take some of those functions. MR. G. MERCIER: Who are the directorate that she's referring to? HON. M.

SMITH: That's the group under the Director of Child Welfare, now we're calling the Director of Child and Family Service, so it's the program responsibility centre in the department. MR. G. MERCIER: Is that budgeted for in this area? HON. M. SMITH: That's the 4.(bX 1) that we talked about earlier. MR. G. MERCIER: That's where the Director of Child Welfare is paid. HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: The Director of Child Welfare is primarily responsible for the coordination of the activities of the six regional agencies. HON. M. SMITH: Of the whole provincial system. MR. G.

MERCIER: What has been done to ensure that there is proper coordination and allocation of resources amongst the six regional groupings or agencies? HON. M. SMITH: The basic allocation was on the caseload, and the prevention grants have been based on population and social need indicators. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is there not some central coordination to ensure that cases are dealt with on a priority basis; for example, hypothetically what is there to prevent all of the resources of one area being used to deal with, say, priority 3 and 4 cases - I'm just using that as an example - whilst another region does not have sufficient funding to look after priority 1 and 2 cases? HON. M. SMITH: The child maintenance needs, it's an open-ended fund. In other words, if the need is there, then the agency can charge through for that funding, so there's flexibility there based on the need level.

The other admin and staffing grants are based on previous years' experience, and we have feedback information by which to monitor and make the next year allocations. There are protocols for the procedures to be followed for child abuse and protection and so on. If there's anyone in the field or on the board feels that those protocols aren't being followed, they can appeal to the director and get the situation looked into. So that's our way, both by resource allocation and monit oring and protocols of ensuring minimum standards and adequate distribution of money. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, P.

Adam: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if this is an appropriate time to adjourn. HON. M. SMITH: I'm prepared to carry on, but I'm at the will of the committee. MR. C. BIRT: I'd like to have the committee rise. MR. DEP UTY CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee, come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Education, Item 7. Bureau De L'Education Francaise, (

a) Division Administration,

(1) Salaries - the Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, inasmuch as the Member for Ni akwa has not returned and is not proceeding with his line of questioning, whatever that was, I'll ask the Minister at this time a couple of questions - (I nterjection) - Mr. Chairman, my apologies. The Member for Niakwa wished to continue. Mr. Chairman, before I have the Member for Niakwa continue, I would like though to finish off a couple of questions that were initiated by the Member for Kirk field Park with respect to teacher training.

I'd like to get a little better feel for who is qualified to take the six-week intensive French Language Program I understand was piloted in May to June 1984 at St. Boniface College, under the sponsorship of the Lord Selkirk School Division No. 11 . lt was initiated by the Manitoba Teachers' Society and funded by the participants, their employing school divisions and the bureau de !'education francaise. The bureau defrayed most of the tuitio n costs. I understand that the Department of Education was unable to fund the program this coming year.

My question is though - before I ask the Minister to indicate whether that's a fact that the bureau was unable to fund this, whether that's factual or not - I would ask her who is qualified to take this course? Mr. Chairman, when I graduated from high school, I had taken some - I can't remember - there was five or six years of basic core French and after Grade 12, I think I probably could have made myself orally understood by the Member for Radisson, and maybe even the Member for St. Boniface; and yet with those qualifications, would I be eligible to take this course, if indeed it's still in place? 3443

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Minister. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, the program that he's talking about is the one that I described in the list of teacher training opportunities and activities that was what we called a one-shot deal. lt was funded last year by the Federal Government and it was not renewed. For those school divisions or people who were involved in the program, the only requirement really is that they be either teaching a French program or targeted by their school division to teach a program. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to gain a little bit more than that.

Let's say, I am a teacher, but would I be able to gain from that course, if I brought with me, on entering, nothing more than four or five years of Core French, and that was the old grammar translation type of French? At least, that's what I took some 15 or 18 years ago. Would I have the necessary prerequisites to gain full advantage of what that course had to offer? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, there were different levels in the program, so he would be slotted into the level that was most appropriate for his experience and fluency." MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, summer bursaries were another area, and I'll tell you what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the letter that was sent to the Minister from Judy Bradley on behalf of the St. James-A ssiniboia Teachers' Association. lt was sent to the Minister the end of January, 1985, and all members of the Legislative Assembly received copies of this particular letter. The writer made reference to three specific re­ education programs which the writer felt deserved financial support. We just reviewed one of them.

The second was the area of summer bursaries and I know the Minister has covered that to some degree, but I would ask her, in support of a question that was offered by my colleague, my desk mate, the Member for Arthur, in respect to an individual who had, I understand, applied for one of these bursaries, was accepted, but then told that even though there was an upgrading language course at the University of Brandon, which if she had paid the tuition for it on her own, would have received proper credit toward some qualifications as a teacher, was directed away from that institution and indeed was told she had to take, in support of the bursary, she had to take instruction at one or two locations.

Is that a fact and, secondly, does that program fall under the Summer Bursaries Program and, thirdly, what is the rationale for having only the two institutions that he indicated the other day in question period; namely, the St. Boniface College and the University of Manitoba, as colleges or universities offering that program. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I do have the answer to that. I was kind of holding it and not sure whether to deliver it now, when he wasn't here in Estimates, or give it to him in question period, but I can do both and we can pass it on.

The Federal -Provin cial Agreement for Official Languages in Education states that teacher bursaries are awarded to allow participation in provincially­ approved courses, workshops or sessions related to French language education for the teaching of French as the second official language. The only relevant point I think is that it has to meet the criteria to be established and to be approved as a provincial program, and there are a number of requirements.

Seven hours a day minimum; activities in reading, writing, listening and speaking- listening and speaking are emphasized; and there are a variety of extra-curricular activities. If the Brandon University wishes and is prepared to offer such a program, and by such a program, I mean one that meets the criteria and wouldn't be eligible for funding under the federal-p rovincial agreement, then we would be quite prepared to have the program be offered there and to provide the funds, make the funds available to those teachers willing to participate.

So it's a matter of an accepted program that is funded and if they're willing to offer the same program and under the same criteria as the other two institutions, they would be able to offer it. We would be happy to have that happen and make the funding available to the teachers. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister tell me at this time what the student enrolment has been In the school year we've just completed in the three basic French streams - whether it's the Core area, the Immersion stream, or the Francaise Program? HON. M. HEMPHILL:· Mr.

Chairman, in the Francaise Program we have exactly the same number as we had last year, 5,700 students; French Immersion, we're up which we have been over the last few years, we're up 13, 000; Basic Fr ench is also up 36,000; and Conversational French is down 53,000 - it started four years ago, it was at 72,000. So as I said earlier, without giving the figures, the Francaise Program is remaining very stable and has been for a number of years. The Immersion Program has been increasing each year and continues to do so, as does the Basic French; and Conversational French is going down. MR. C.

MANNESS: I'd just ask the Minister. She said the immersion numbers were up to 13 ,000. From what base did they leave to reach 13,000? HON. M. HEMPHILL: In 19 82-83 it was 7,524; 1983 - 84, 8,968; 19 84-85, 11 ,000; and 19 85-86, 13, 000. MR. C. MANNESS: Can the Minister provide for me a breakdown as to which divisions are offering the course and the numbers therein that are attending immersion. She doesn't have to do it tonight. I'm wondering if she can provide that information for me? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I will. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you.

I would hope that the Minister would give me sort of reply to what I had started off just at 5:30 when we were finished, but I do have some other questions and I just missed on 3444

Thursday , 27 June, 1985 the university program. I don't want to revert back to the university, except that under Minister's Salary I do have some additional things that I want to bring to the Min ister's attention concerning a particular problem that I have. I've mentioned it to the Deputy Min ister and I hope that he has made some reference to you, and that you would be prepared to answer the questions under the university program, but it will be under Mi nister's Salary.

Will the Min ister give me some sort of a reply to what I was talking about, the cost of preparing the Teachers in English Program who are being phased · out because of the upswing of the Immersion Program, and if she could give me some sort of an answer as to what protection those teachers are going to be given, so that they have some sort of a future ahead of them, that we're not just saying thank you, good-bye, thank you for past services? What are we doing to prepare them for the future? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I think that he was referring to the fact that he thought there might be some English teachers with changes in program and curriculum, English teachers who might have difficulty with job security and may be put out to the pasture. He was suggesting that some of them may be rather young. To date, and I ind icated this before when we were having the discussion, I know of no teacher that has been let go because of the langua ge program right now one way or the other.

The whole question of training and retraining is one that we're giving a top priority to in the Department of Education that includes French language training, but not only. There is a requirement for us to give training opportunities to a lot of our teachers in the growing fields and francais programs are one of them. Another would be computer programs where they may not have been trained earlier.

What is important, I think, is that we've got a top priority for training and retraining opportunities for teachers; we're expanding and improving them as much as we can and people should not be put out on the street because of changes in need or skills in programming. A lot of it would be more related, I think, to declining enrolment.

That has been more of a factor than has the French language been a factor to date. 1 suppose what I'm saying is that it is an issue and that we have an obligation to help people get training opportunities and move them into the fields and programs of the future like francais programs and compu ter programs, and we' re working in a co­ operative way. The things that I outlined were department activities.

We also have identif ied all of the profess ional development money in the department in the coming year and that which is out in the field with departments where we're going to sit down and make top priority lists of those su bject and areas which require the most training or where the needs are the greatest, then we'll be collectively developing programs in the divisions doing the retraining dependent upon what their needs are.

In other words, if they've got a very growing French immersion or a very growing computer program and they have training needs to keep their staff, then we will develop training programs for them on those. MR. A. KOVNATS: I didn't want to talk on the computer program, I wanted to concentrate on the French and the French immersion and the francais program. Are these teachers, when they're being retrained, are they on full salary and who pays for their retraining when they go to say St. Boniface College, because the Honourable Mi nister had mentioned that there was a cost factor?

Where does this cost factor come from? Is it out of the teachers' pocket or is it out of the school division that they were employed with originally and is there any additional benefits concerning early retirement from some of the people in English program to allow some of the new people coming into that English program? That's why I' ve suppo rted this early retirement for teachers at 55 because I see where there's some problem of some of the younger teachers coming in. We've got teachers in the English program that we've got to make room for these young teachers coming up. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, I realize that the Member for Niakwa was just raising his question related to French language programs, but I'm saying that it's all a combination, that all of the retraining addresses his concern, which was young teachers who are in a program that is going to be elimina ted and needing training opportunities and it won't just be French language opportun ites that help them get jobs, but retraining in other top priority areas.

The funding comes - I listed a number of programs, the special program with France, with summer bursary programs, with evening education programs, and professional development programs that teachers, or that the school divisions and the department design. So it would be paid for in combination, depending on what kind of a program it is. lt could be the Provincial or the Federal Government; it could be boards; and it could be a combination with some private coming from the teacher's pocket and some coming from the Provincial or Federal Government. MR. A.

KOVNA TS: I don't know how it works out, but what type of provisions are made for people like myself who have finished with the school system, but want to take some advantage of ·whatever there could be through the bureau de !' education francaise? I don't think I qualify, because I'm even more so than a mature student at this point - (Interjection) - a little bit more so, but I think there's got to be something to the department that would help a person like myself to provide a service for the Franco commun ity. What type of advantages do I have so that I can provide a service to the Franco community? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: So glad to see that the Member for Niakwa is one of those who believes in continuing education and lifelong learning. There is some help, a little more help than we appear to be able to give him on the signing program, but there are Adult Education evening courses at four institutions - at the two universities, Brandon Un iversity and St. Boniface College. While you do have to pay some of the costs of taking those courses through Adult Education, there are French Language Adult Education Grants that are put toward the cost of the program 3445

Thuraday, 2:1 June, 1185 that reduce the cost. So there is a contribution there so that the cost is kept at a reasonable level. MR. A. KOVNATS: I had participated in the St. Boniface College. I was taking Mondays and Wednesdays and then, all of a sudden, we've got special meetings on Wednesdays and I'm not able, so I've got to go Tuesdays and Thursdays - this is at St. Boniface College. Then there's committe es now on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so I'm not able to keep it up, but the cost to me was somewhere around $1 20 for a very short period .

I didn't mind it, but there were other people in that course that really couldn't afford it quite as much as I could afford it, even though I would prefer to have got it at no cost. I think that there's got to be something from your department, Madam Mini ster, that would encourage people to jump in; even retir ed people, young people, people who are unemployed. There's got to be some assistance, because I know there was some people who were unemployed. They were mostly women. I think these women are looking for somewhere in the future to protect their own interest and I support them for it.

They're receiving no financial assistance; they've got to reach into their pocket or their purse and pay for this cour se them selves, and I think that there's got to be sonie assistance coming from the Pr ovincial Government through the Department of Education, through the bureau de !'ed ucation francaise. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, the amount of money that we put in, that I mentioned before, through the Adult and Continuing Education Program is about $1 00,000 to help keep the cost and the tuition at - not as low as he would like, but at a reasonable level. That's a fair amount of money for that program.

If you compare the fees for that Adult Education Program, they do compare favourably with other Adult Education Programs, too, so it isn't as if they're being put on at a high cost, they're being run and being subsid ized and they're at about the same level as most other programs that are offered in the same way. MR. A. KOVNATS: The Honourable Minister came up with a figure of $1 00,000.00. Where does this money come from?

Does it come from the taxpayers of the Province of Manitoba or does it come from the Federal Government; because if it comes from the Federal Government the n we're really do ing nothin g to encourage the program and, if it comes from the taxpayers, then I'll just sit down and keep my mouth shut. HON. M. HEMPHILL: What do you do when I say SO percent, Mr. Chairman? Half up. MR. A. KOVNATS: All right. So half of the money comes from the Federal Government.

I know it's all taxpayers' money but I think that if it does come from the Federal Go vernment, then I think that the Provincial Government, through the department, is really not doing their share in supp orting the program. I don't want to be that critical, although I am critical. I think the people who want to take the program deserve more than just a little bit of lip service in saying that we're being good to you and you pay your own way, but we are getting some compensation from the Federal Government and I think that the Provincial Government can do more to encourage these programs in Manitoba. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: We are putting up $50,000.00. it's a little more than lip service, although I recognize the Member for Niakwa would like more. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister, to refresh my memory, tell me the department's support for students that choose one of the three streams of French education? What is the per pupil support? HON. M. HEMPHILL: lt's $1 00 per equ ivalent student for the Core Program and $250 for equ ivalent student for immersion and francais. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has been in negotiation with the St.

Boniface School Division for the last two or three months with respect to the impact that the new Government Support to Education Program has, in the sense that the French grants now become part of the Categorical Grants and, because they're given top priority, the St. Boniface School Division claims that, in effect, they lose a portion of their block grant. Just to read into the record, Mr. Chairman, the letter of May 28th, 1985, di rected to the Minister. lt says: "We acknowledge that under the new Support to Education Program, St. Boniface received increased funding in 1985 over 1984.

However, we still contend that the French categorical grant should be a separate grant from all others. As you state in your letter, we must spend the $682,000 on French langage programs in 1985. Because we are obligated to spend that exact amount in French programs, while our block grant is reduced according ly, we believe that the St. Boniface School Board, regardless of the incr eased funding in 1985, now has to put more money of its own into French programs. We think this is unfair and is not in keeping with the original intentio n of the grant.

In order to maintain funding at previous levels for regular programs, it would now be in the best interests of the school board to limit enrolment in French programs, and thus to lessen our French grant, therefore, making more funds available on the block grant for our English students. A categorical French grant is now set up so that it penalizes regular program students by taking money away from them." Mr. Chairman, that was the main part of a letter that was sent by Joyce Patterson, Chairman of the St. Boniface School Division to the Minister under the date of May 28, 1985.

I understand that there was an original presentation in March, revised in April, 1985, where the St. Boniface School Division attempted to show the Minister how her new policy worked against the provision of French grants within that school division. I would ask the Minister whether or not their claim is corr ect and, if it is, whether or not the department has done anything over the last month? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, there has been some confusion and some misunderstanding about this 3446

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 area, not just related to grants for francais programs, but also for special needs and other categorical programs. I think Dr. Nicholls has been having meetings and discussions with them. First of all, there wasn't any change in their grants this year, but for some reason they believed that the application, the way they understood it, could have an effect in subsequent years on limiting the amount of money they were getting for their special programs, whatever they were.

We have been very quick to communi cate that was not the intention, number 1; and number 2, that we do not believe that is a fact. we· have said that it has no effect on their funding of their programs for either their special needs programs or their francais programs.

I would say that what we're in the process of doing is assuring them that it wasn't the intention of the structure of the new grant, that has not been the conseque nce in this year's funding which they, I think, are quite aware of, and that it's not unusual for people to look down the road and say, well things are okay this year, but we think that if this happens and that happens that this may be the effect of it; and we have assured them that isn't the intention and that will not be the case, so that they will continue to get the grants in this program area that they have been getting and are entitled to.

I suppose our problem is one now of communication and confirmation to all those boards which I think Dr. Nicholls has been attempting to do over the period of the last little while. I'm not sure if there's been special communication to St. Boniface School Division in the last month - there has. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. The Member for Morris. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I didn't hear it. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, two points. Firstly, I do know that within the special needs area that the department was able to allay the fears and concerns of some school division in fairly short order.

My concern here is this letter is dated May 28, so any agreed-upon solution obviously has just happened very recently or it hasn't happened at all with respect to the French grants, particularly as they apply to the divisions such as St. Boniface. I don't know whether the Minister is being too categorical in her statement that, in fact, all of the problems have been ironed out, or whether she's saying that there still is some problem here. A second point, Mr.

Chairman, is that the claim is a little bit different in this case, and I'll read out specifically. 1t says: "The French grant is now inclu ded as one of the categorical grants which is a change from 1984" and that's a given. "In the GSC as categorical grants increased, block gr ants decreased proportionat ely." I think that's the general problem the Minister is attempting to have Dr. Nicholls address. This is the additional bit of information that has the St. Bonif ace School Division concerned, and I quo te: "How ever, 50-60 percent of the money for French grants is obtained from the Federal Government.

Therefore, the Provincial Government is able to route funds intended for bilingualism into general education; 50- 60 percent of our 1985 French grants amounted to $409,000; thus, our general revenue is, in part, being subsidized by funds intended for French and immersion schools." Alternatively the same amounts of money that I just mentioned previously represents a reduction in general revenue.

My question to the Minister: is this argument sound, given the fact that at least 50 percent of the money is accruing from Ottawa and, as goes through the new grant formula, is the Provi ncial Government, in effect, offload ing part of the value of the Ottawa grant and therefore able to decrease its share, the provincial share, to regular programming? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Absolutely not, Mr.

Chairman. lt is requir ed that we provide information to the Federal Government and demonstrate very clearly that all the money that has been given to us for the purpose of providing tho se programs is used for those programs and, as we demonstrate that to the satisfaction of the Federal Government, then it is up to boards to demonst rate to us; in other words, they apply for the money based on the requirement to provide programs and they then must demonstrate to us that the money is being used for the programs designated and not going into a central pot.

We cannot put it into a central pot and div ert it into other programs, nor can they. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister repeat the number of students in the province that are taking Basic French, and I take it that means Core French today? HON. M. HEMPHILL: '84-85 is $23,000.00. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I have before me June, 1984 copy of the Manitoba Teacher. There's an

article by David Skinner, "Basic French - Will lt Work ?" In this

article he claims that projections have been made by somebody that in the year '87-88 there will be some 55,000 Manitoba students who will be enrolled at some stage in the Basic French Program. Mr. Chairman, I ask the Minister is she aware of who may have made this proje ction? Is it a number that's bandied around through the Bureau or d�s it have any significance at all? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, it isn't a figure that's being bandied about. it's a reliable figure - that isn't the word I was looking for, I know it's a reliable figure.

But we survey the boards every year and we survey them in advance so that there can be appropriate planning and we know what the needs are, both for program and for teachers. That figure is an accurate projection based on the information that the department has received from school boards. lt falls, once again, into the point that we were making. As you see that figure go up, I think you will find that the conversa tional French figure will conti nue to go down, if not correspond ingly almo st .correspo nding ly, because people are moving from the one to the other . MR. C. MANNESS: Two other points, Mr. Chairman.

The claim is made that basic French, for instance, my children would take in the Mo rris-MacDonald School Division, is somewhat different than what I may have 3447

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 taken 20 years ago. Twenty years ago it was basically grammar and translat ion. Can the Mini ster tell me what it is today? How has it changed, and will it make the graduate of tod ay, who apply thems elves, will it make them any more proficient and, if so, in what respects? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, there has been some change in the emphasis. The emphasis today is on oral skills, speaking and listening. MR. C. MANNESS: One final question, Mr. Chairman.

No doubt these projections, determined by way of survey, have been used for planning to the best possible purpose of having in place a number of teachers who can provide the proper skills to instruct these number of students. How is the profile changing of the teacher professi on? I read somewhere there will have to be three out of the 12,000 teachers - maybe there are that many right tod ay, I don't know - that will have to have ability within the French language.

Will that target number of 55,0 00, if it is attained, will there be in place, at that time, the proper number of teachers who have the qualifications in the second language to be able to teach tho se students? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we expect so. We must remember that this will not just be an addition, but will be a redistribution within the system that we have, and a lot of the teachers that are teaching in conv ersat ional French will be moving over to teach in the Core French.

Quite a number of them will already be skilled and able to manage the Core French Program without any additiona l training, and some of them will require some slight upgrading or improvements in the way of courses, in order to be able to manage the Core. So it isn't as if there is a major boost on top of the existing program, but a redistribution within that will require some ret raining requir ements. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I have another

article in front of me, it came out of the December 1984 Manitoba Teacher publication, and it was written by Katy Fraser and it was titled, "Learning French, Earlier is not always Better". This particular

article drew an awful lot of reaction, as I recall, in subsequent issues. But, neverthless. it struck some type of note with me, and although I wouldn't agree with everyt hing the Member for Elmwood said within this whole area, it struck me that ma ybe in many cases we're not absolutely sure what we are doing for our young children who we feel should walk this path of trying to learn two languages. I know one can never make categorical statements that will cover all but, nevertheless, Mr.

Chairman, are we certain that In the vast majority of cases that we're doing the right thing for our very young children who are asked to go into immersion. Are all of them, or the vast majority of them, properly prepared to compr ehend and learn in two languages? I know the members opposite had some fun earlier when the Member for Elmwood was speaking, and I remember the Minister of Finance saying, well if one language comes in, another one has to go out, and he seemed to be saying that's what the Member for Elmwood was indicated. I'm not making that statement, Mr.

Chairman, I'm well aware there are people in this world who have tremendous talents, like the Member for Niakwa, who can probably hold many languages within his head , but I don't kno w whether that's commonpla ce or not, Mr. Chairman; and when it comes to oral expression, I dare say it probably is. My greater concern though is when it comes to written expression, are we absolutely certain, is the evidence in that all of our children - I'm not talking about those who are gifted in language comprehension, I'm talking about the vast average - can th ey properly accommodate both languages? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, he's opened the statement on this area by quoting from an

article that did receive a lot of reaction and a lot of criticism from within the profession. lt was very soundly rebutted I think from people in the profession and teachers that are teaching in the classroom "blasted it", I think would be a good description, and didn't agree with it at all. it's based on, not just what's happening in Manitoba, but information we have about provinces that moved into immersion programs much earlier than we did. it's based on studies and surveys and past practice and information from having the programs in place over a fairly long period of time, that we feel quite confident has demons trated that this is a sou nd program, delivered in a reasonable way at a reasonable time.

MR. C. MANNESS: I bring the su bject up, Mr . Chairman, because first of all the

article struck me and, of course, the author Katy Fraser is just one person and that's one person's opinion, although lt says here that Katy Fraser is an early childhood primary consultant at Rockwood School, Winnipeg; she's fluent in French and English, as are her two children, now 18 and 17 years of age who started studying French in Grades 2 and 7, respectiv ely. Well, that's just one person, Mr. Chairman, I fully realize that. But that very short biographical sketch says to me that this person just isn't somebody floundering for an answer to what may be a problem, like myself. So, Mr.

Chairman, I see nothing wrong with asking the question because, if a person like this who obviously feels they have some expertise within the area, makes some strong commenta ry; and yes, I did see the react ion, the cou nter-react ion, but I had no way of judging the backgrounds and the experiences of those people who counter-r eacted this. But I kept this in the back of mind and once the St. Pier re issue became became identified, Mr. Chairman, I took a keener interest in this whole question to see whether, in fact, this might be their concern coming from a different angle.

In fact, were they concerned that their children, who could speak orally two languages quite well, may not, in the minds of the parents at St. Pierre, be able to express thems elves well in English. Of course, many of them told me that was their basic concern, and that they had gone the step furthe r, realizing they'd looked at the situation from a different perspective - and I'm talking, when I say "they", I'm talking about the group who wants the 50/50 program in St. Pierre - they were saying, look, I know that only one-t hird of the people today and, from their view, hopefully in the future - 3448

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 only one-third of the people are going to be able to find jobs with the governments of the land, plus the Crown corporations. And, by simple deduction, that means two-thirds of the people are going to have to enter the corporate or business world. Their claim was that their children, if they didn't have, not only a sound oral expression of the English language, but also a properly written grammatical understanding of the English language, would therefore be at a disadvantage. The argument made an awful lot of sense to me, I might say, Mr.

Chairman, so much so that what happened shortly thereafter really drove the argument home. I have had an opportunity to ask a graduate, a recent graduate of St. Boniface College, as a matter of fact, two, to propose to do a little work for me, to review a report. Mr. Chairman, the person in question who is very very intelligent prepared a report in English that was totally incomprehensible; one could not comprehend it at all. And there's no way one should jump to conclusions on the basis of one person, and I fully recognize that; but I say, Mr.

Chairman, if you're the parent of that one child, or if you're the friend of the parent of that child and you know that's happening, you have a lot of reason to be concerned, an awful lot of reason. Well - (Interjection) - the Member for lnkster says you don't. Of course, he knows, he's a parent. He's a parent; he has many children; he knows all about it, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, that member over there accused me of bigotry. I want it put on the record and, furthermore, I want a withdrawal from that member.

I ask him whether he has the courage to stand up and withdraw it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I have a difficult time withdrawing from the basic attitude that the member has, the way he needles around issues and tries to impute motives and tries to blacken, either programs or initiatives other people have. Perhaps it is a bit strong for me to refer to the member and to call his attitude that of base bigotry.

I have my own opinions, but I shall, because I think it is unparliamentary and it's not a normal parliamentary word, I don't believe. but I shall, for the respect of the member opposite, withdraw the comment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'll let the Minister decide whether or not I was trying to needle around and trying to blacken some programs. My interest is very very sincere. I'm asking for information. Good God, that must be my right or is it not, the Member for lnkster? · MR. R. BANMAN: Every time it doesn't fit into his mould, it's a bigot.

That's the problem we've got in this world. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. C. MANNESS: So, Mr. Chai rman, we 're all politicians and when the group from St. Pierre comes to see the Minister, they also come to see me and they're wanting to offer certain information. What I'm trying to do is trying to get a broader perspective of how to handle that. I don't have tunnel vision like the Member for lnkster. Mr. Chairman, if he wants to enter into the debate, let him get out of his chair and enter into it and be recognized; but at this point in time I don't have to be needled by the mental giant from lnkster. Mr.

Chairman, I ask the Minister, with respect to the program, are we absolutely certain, in the area we're heading, particularly when our young children are being directed into streams by parents believing, quite sincerely, that's their best alternatives; and the question again is, can the vast majority of students handle it such that they'll be fluent in a grammatical and in a written sense in both languages when they graduate from school? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I think there were about three points that were made there.

One related to the early start, and when you started children and were they ready, was that an appropriate time; and that parents were putting them in because the programs were there and they believed it was the appropriate time, what did we know or what did we have that confirmed that. He was also raising the question of So maybe I'll deal with them one at a time.

He raised the question of are they able to have facility in both languages, and I think we did spend a fair amount of time on that, where I said that everything that we know, and not only our tests, but right across the country that have measured, have demonstrated that the kids that are taking immersion programs, when they're tested, do as well in English and, in some cases, better than students who don't take a language and I reminded him that a facility in learning in one language is transferrable. In other words, as you learn language, you become more able to deal with languages of other kinds.

That's one of the factors, so that there may be problems in terms of ability to read and write. There always have been in every education system, but they can't be dropped in the lap of the language programs, they'd be very complex in a wide variety of reasons. But the testing shows that there isn't a correlation. that it can't be identified as the factor for those students who are not managing or not as able in the English language as they should be. Certainly, what happened to that one student, you can't possibly tell what that could be.

There could be a dozen factors related to that one student that means that they can't handle themselves in the English lan_guage, and unless you knew the student's background and history and marks and the case history, we couldn't possibly judge. what it is. In terms of the early learning experience, we have lots of information and knowledge from the experience of teaching that the earlier the better. In fact, when children are very young, they adapt to these programs much better. Most of the Francophones in Manitoba, for instance, have two languages and they don't have 3449

Thursday, 27 June, 1985 any trouble, so you have to look at both sides of that. They don't have any trouble adopting and managing in that arena, and there is lots of information that shows that as they get older the intensity and the interest drops off.

If you've had children who are as old as mine and they've gone through the system, you know that one of the concerns that many parents have, and I think that I remem ber the Memb er for Lakeside raising this question, is that when they get into junior high and high sch ool if the y have any choi ces the n the y sometimes choose to opt out of the programs because, by then, they're interested in so many things and it's hard to get them to stick with a program that is an optional program that may require a fair amount of study and attention, so that there is a definite drop of intensity at the junior high and senior high level.

This has a definite effect on the learning and the retention of the program.

I think, for all those reasons, we know that young children adapt very easily and that anybody who has seen how quickly a young child will pick up language and how much more difficult it is the older you get, and that includes junior high, senior high and then adults, it becomes progressively more difficult for us to adap t, and the fact that us, and all other provinces, have identified this through the years of practice as a sound curriculum, and that their experience doesn 't demonstrate that there is a problem in teaching at this early age, I think, doesn't mean that we wouldn't always look at it, but it's enough to make us feel fairly confident in the system.

I believe that there is an early period, when they're making the transition, where they may have some difficulti es in terms of both, but the experience shows us that if that is the case that when they get along into the third or fourth year that is overcome and, in fact, that they have no problems at all related to the program. There was one other point that he made. He tied in the St. Pie rre-Jolys question and the parents groups with that issue and I don't think that it is related but I'll try and address it in the terms that he suggested.

First of all, you did meet with the 50-50 parents and they were indica ting a concern about the amount of English. I met with both parents and I can tell you that the 50-50 parents are not asking for the withdrawal of the 75-25 program , not at all; they are not even saying that it's not a good program or that it shouldn't be in. They are saying that those parents that want 75-25 should have it, but they believe, for their own reasons, and they list a number of them, that they prefer the 50-50.

All they're asking for is some options for the parent groups, not that automatically the 75-25 is not a good program and has those problems attached to it. I think that probably covers the three main points that he raised. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mini ster of Energy. HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, I'd just like to just partake in the discussion for a couple of minutes. I do so because I'v e, inde ed, had chi ldren in the French Immersion Program. One has been in the program for 10 years and the other has been in the program for seven years and that takes into account Kindergarten.

I certainly don't think one would consider Transcona a Francophone com munity , although there are Francophones within Transcona, but the great vast majority of students' names that I've noticed at the Christmas concerts or other functions of the school are usually German or Slavic names; Gwozdeckis or Krambl e