Manitoba Hansard — 10 May 1973 (Sitting 95, 29th Legislature, 5th Session)

29-5-95

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XX No. 95 8:00 p.m., Thursday, May 10th, 1973. Fifth Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

2603 THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANTTOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, May 10, 1973 SUPPLY - HEALTH AND SOCTAL DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN: (Resolutions 55 and 56 were read and pa.ssed. ) Resolution 57 (a)(1) --passed-- the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Is it (3)(a)? -- oh, Irm sorry, yourre on (2Xa). MR. CHAIRMAN: Resclution 57(a)(l)--the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEM.AN: I wasn't certain of the number, Mr. Chairman.

I did want to ask tl:c Minister, apparently the revenue for 1972 to r73 that was received from the Provincial (ir)vernment which was something like $49 million'compared to 46 million in 1971 to t?2. I u,rndered if the Minister could tell us what he expects to receive from the Federal Govern- rrrt'nt for L973 to 174? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honoural:le Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, the revenue for shared cost from the Government of t'unada through the Canadl Assistanee Plan, there will be $39, 115,000.00. On Vocational lichabilitation of Disabled Persons $850,000 as compared to $779,000 in 1972-173.

General lk,alth Grants $623,000; Ward Maintenance, Treaty Indians, $900,000; Services to Indians- (:hildrents Aid Society, $140,000; Indian and Metis Friendship Centers, $70,000; Vocation ,,l Rehabilitation Treaty Indians, $260, 000; Disabled Perscnsr Allowances, $150,600; Blind l'('rsonst Allowance, $f 03,500; a Canada-Manitoba FRED Agreement, $81,000; Social Allow- .rrce-Treatylndians, $310,000; [herers nothing for National Welfare Grants; there's nothing tirr fhs Pas Special Agreement; there's $12, 000 for Parole Services, for a total of 42.615. 1 rrrillion dollars. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (Resolution 57(a)(1) to (c)(2) was read and passed. ) Resolution 57 r,l)(1)--the Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: What typc of education is this we're providing under this item? -(Interjection)-- This is Education Services. What type of education are we carrying on , ,? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, werre looking at 145.8 thousand dcllars for Salaries; '.5.2 for Other Expenditures.

There is a total expenditure of 245,000; total staff man-years l?; there is a provision of services related to public education and in-service information r i:r Newsletter, film services, consulting services, printed education education material and . shibit production(1) excludes salaries to regular support staff; (2) general operation costs ,,1'the office. Does that give the explanation wanted by the member? MR" CHAIRMT\N: (d)(l)--passed, (2)--passed, (e)(1)--The Honourable Member for | ()rt Rouge, MRS. TnUEM/IN: Mr. Chairman, on this metter of Vital Statistics there were some . omments that I wish to make.

When the Premier made his closing remarks in the budget k.bate he made a statement that I found hard to believe so I set out to ascertain the facts. lhe Premier said cn April 6, 1973, on Page 7494 in Hansard, "Our population by the way, lcpending on whose figures you want to use, DBS say that itrs increased to 990 and some ihousand which is fair enough, it's been increasing to that level.

And the Federal Depart- rrrcnt of National Health and Welfare have accepted our computer hospitalization figures .r'hich are one million and fifteen thousand, perhaps one of these days we should have a cere- rrony to provide perhaps a little token or a gift to the baby that was estimated to be the one rrrillionth Manitoban. " Mr. Chairman, my review of the Annual Report of the department had indicated other- *ise. The Premier had besed his statement on the Manitoba Health Services Commission iigures, of the numbers that were enrolled on the insurance plan during the year, the pre- ,.cding year.

Those figures of courSe included many part yi:ars. A person who had -- I n'onder, Mr. Chairman, if you could ask the Member from Flin Flon to lurn the hockey game ,rlf. As I was saying, the figures included many part years. For instance a person who died ,)n January 3rd would be one individual in that yearrs

summary of the people served and also r baby that might be born on December 3Oth would be part of that yearts statistics. So that lhe Manitoba Health Services Ins'Jrance Commission would be cover.ing a greater number of :reople than actually existed at the end of the year, This figure would have included people l

2604 May 10, 1973 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MRS. TRUEMAN cont'd) .•..• who moved in and out of the province during the year as well. Well by mutual agreement the Federal and the Provincial Governments have used that inflated figure for cost sharing of insured services and this has netted Manitoba something like another $8. 2 million, and nobody can quarrel with that, particularly since it was done with a clear understanding on everyone's part as to what they were buying.

However the Premier in his remarks didn't explain that but misused these figures and he has misled the public in a way which this government likes to do, that is using favorable statistics, and distorting or analyzing them in such a way that it makes the government look good. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health, point of order? MR. TOUPIN: Well you could call it a point of privilege.

Actually the honourable member is making reference to remarks made by my Premier and the remarks made by the Premier were in context with statistics from the Manitoba Health Services Commission that has nothing to dJ with this division. Maybe the honourable member could withhold her comments and make them when we get to the amount asked for by the Manitoba Health Services Commission, because it's two dlfferent bureaus of statistics in a sense. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I thought I had explained that, and I thought that I was als0 explaining that the Premier had misused these figures and had misled the public i::l the process. Because his remarks, and I'll repeat it, that the Federal Departm·ent of National Health and Welfare have accepted our computer hospitalization figures which are one million and fifteen thousand, so perhaps one of these days we sbould have a ceremony to provide perhaps a little token or a gift to the baby that was the one millionth Manitoban. Well it is this latter remark to which I take exception.

And as I said, the government likes to use figures in such a way that it reflects credit to the government, and in my opinion this deceives the public, misleads them. So I did go back to the annual report and I would like to set the record straight, Mr. Chairman. In 1969 from this Annual Report of the Department of Health and Social Development the population stood at 979, OOO. In 1970, one year later, it was up by 2, OOO people to 981, OOO, a net gain of two-tenths of one percent. That was the first year of the NDP reign.

In 1971 we did a little better, the population moved up by 7, OOO to 988, OOO, a gain of seven-tenths of one percent. In 1972, last year, last year's annual report on December 3lst said that the population, DBS figures were 992, OJO, or an increase of 4, OOO or up four tenths of one percent.

Now in April, the Premier seems to expect us to believe that in the first four months of this year the population of Manitoba is up by 23, OJO people; it only went up 2, OOO, 7, OOO, 4, OOO in a whole year previously, but this year he indicates that it rose by something like 23, OOO within the first four months. --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Chairman, in 1972--in 1972 deaths numbered 8, 215, that was a projected figure, 8, 215; births numbered 17, 669. Now that should be a net gain of 9, 454 people, but the actual figure was 4, OOO. So I ask you, Mr. Chairman, what happened to the other 5, OOO.

Do they represent an out-migration from the province? The Minister of Industry and Commerce, I believe, keeps a record of in migration and out-migration, and perhaps he would be able to help stn.ighten out the facts for the Premier. --(Interjection)-- For further substantiation of our province's slow rate of growth, is contained in a graph prepared for the Financial Post survey of markets, showing population growth across Canada for the decade of 1961 to '71--Manitoba is second lowest after Saskatchewan which stands at -7 percent; Manitoba on a 10-year average is 5 percent.

The figures as I came across them were in a brochure prepared by a company called N .. . Development Corp oration Limited, a company that is busy in the housing industry. This Financial Post survey of markets shows a growth rate in British Columbia of 36 percent, Alberta 23 per cent, Ontario 21 percent, Newfoundland 13 percent, the other provinces are 8 and 7 percent and a 10 year average for Manitoba has now gone down to 5 percent. I think that it's obvious from this brochure why this particular company is not going to move into Manitoba to help develop more housing.

I would say that Manitoba is 9th on their list of 10 provinces that it's likely that they would come into to build housing, and I think this to a large extent accounts for the fact that the government has become so greatly involved in providing housing. It's simply Manitoba dJes not have a market for the private industry.

May 10, 1973 2605 S1_1PPLY - HEALTH (MRS. TRUEMAN cont'

d) Well, Mr. Chairman, a further problem arises from the fact that by wiping out the premiums for the medical and hospital insurance, by Manitoba Hospital Services Commission files will not yield a list of all those enrolled; so that in effect the goose that laid the golden egg has been d=stroyed. So, the executive director of MHSC is now talking of compulsory identity cards once again. This he terms the unique identifier card. This I suppose is the answer that they now have to prod11ce in order to get the figures that yielded that extra $8 million.

So as a result we may all have this method of head counting imposed on us after all. Well, Mr. Speaker, the Premier did the political thing, and he's just been too clever by half. To use one of his phrases, this was, jiggery-pokery. His Minister --(Interjection)- his Minister--his Minister is a partner to this misrepresentation by not having correctly informed the Premier and having kept him on the track as to the facts of Manitoba•s popula- tion growth. , So, Mr.

Chairman, I want to take this opi)ortunity to indicate that in my opinion the Premier should not mislead the people by making statements such as he did on this occasion. The facts are q11ite otherwise. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I think that time, and a very short time, may tell who was a.ttempting to deceive who, and who's attempting to confuse apples with oranges, to use the old phrase .. . --(Interjection)-- bananas and pears? Okay. There is a difference --(Interjection)--heure11se difference.

First of all, the honourable member is, asked to deal on Vital Statistics dealing with the Department of Health and Social Development and she's confusing figures that the Premier indicated came from the Manitoba Health Services Commission. So I tried to make that point to her when she started to speak b11t she didn't seem to want to listen. We'll have an opp0rtunity to discuss the statistics that were presented and are ongoing by the Manitoba Health Services Commission. Under this sections, Mr.

Chairman, we deal with vital statistics that pertain to The Marriages Act, Vital Statistics Act and the Change of Name Act. And the honourable member seems to feel bad that because we did hold good statistics at the Health Services Commission that we were able to get approximately $8 million addi .. tional from the Federal Government. I'm pro11d of that. I can inform the hono11rable mem ber that after June lst that we will contin11e to register all Manitobans at the Manitoba Health Services Commission.

And that's not imposing anything on people, it's only common sense for wanting to present to the Federal Government accurate statistics, So I don•t really know, Mr. Chafrman, what the honourable member is quarrelling about. --(Interjection)-- Setting the records straight as far as the figures that she believes to be right and that remains to be seen. Let me relate what is considered here to be a few facts that should be put on the record. Even though it dDesn't really deal with this item, the honourable member brought them up and I think we should pursue it.

The Manitoba Health Services Commission has been negotiating the q11estion of population count of Manitoba versus the insurance persons' count as determined by the registration record of the Manitoba Health Services Commission. And the Member for Lakeside should know that, having had the pleasure of being on the pre vious administration. These negotiations go back to 1968, '68, that was during your admin istration. Unfortunately we were not the government then--(Interjections)--yes, progressive conservative progressive, I d•)n't know.

The Federal Government just recently conceded that the Manitoba Health Services Commission does have a system of registration for accurately estimating the insured pop ulation in the Province of Manitoba, S'J that's you know to us that's quite pleasing. I don't know why we should argue with that. The retroactive adjustment to 1968 results in an additional revenue to the province. And goes back to 1968. We even picked up funds that, you know, that were left aside since --not 1969, not 1970, 1968.

The Manitoba Health Services Commission the system of registration system, not the premium system is the factor that resulted in the Federal Government's accepting the Manitoba Health Services Commission• s insured person count. So I hope that the member will accept this explanation as being accurate not only for the administration of our last four years but going far beyond

2606 May 10, 197 3 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) . . • . . that into the administration of your colleagues who were sitting in these front benches in 1968, '69, beginning of '6 9. MR. CHAIRMAN� ... passed; (e)- -the Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR, BARROW: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. In my speech this afternoon I said the largest abuses of welfare were Crown corporations. What I meant to say was large corporations. And one more point of order, one more point of order, Mr. Chairman. The Member from Fort Rouge said I was lis tening to the hockey game.

This is a tape recorder and I was listen ing to a good speech by David Lewis. MR. CHAIRMAN: (e)(l)- -passed; (e)(2)-- Pa.ssed; (1)(1)- -passed; (t)--the Honourable Member for Fort· Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: I would like to ask the Minister whether be wouldn't consider putting this item under the Manitoba Health Services Insurance Commission at this point. He speaks of a rationalizing of services and surely the Medical Home Care Equip ment item taken in this posi tion is a sort of relic of previous days.

If it was placed under the Manitoba Hospital Insurance Commission there would probably be greater access to the services provided through out the province, I just have a feeling the Minister is not listening to me. Well, all right, Mr. Chairm an, I would ju st like to know why this couldn't be placed under Manitoba Health Services so that the medical home care eq·1ipment can be univers: llly available throughout the province under that service and perhaps some administrative cost could be saved, MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honoura ble Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, the major item in this appropriation deals with the pur chase of home care equip ment and medi cal supplies; other costs cover warehoasing and :>ffice expenditures. Yo'! know, if it was decided d1ring the. year, since the home care program will be administered by the Manitoba Health Services Commis sion, it would ·:>e quite easy for Cabinet to transfer this amount to them, but it was main ly in this appropriation because it applies mostly to those people in need, in financ ial need, this is why it was within the estim ates of my department and not the Health Services Commission.

But if it was intended, since it is going to become an insured service it could be transferred during the year, The comme nt and the recommendation of the Member for Fort Rouge will be taken seriously. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairm an, I prefer that it remain the way it is so that it' s separated so we know how much is going to be spent on the item without asking for it; otherwi se there would have to be a question. --(Interject ion)-- That's right. MR. TOUPIN: The Honou rable Member for Rhineland will equally be taken seriou sly.

If there 's any other comments we'll lis ten to them. But what I did say is that if it was intended by government during the year, during the fisca l year to transfer this amount to the Health ·S ervices Commission, it could be done. MR. CHAffiMAN : (The rem ainder of Resolution 57 was read and passed. ) Resolution 58 (a)(1)- -passed ; (2)--passed; (3)--pa ssed; (4)--passed; (b)(l)--pa ssed ; (c)(l)-- passed ; (2)-- passed; (d)(l)- -passed ; (2)- -passed; ORDER PLEAS E !

ORDER! --(Interjection)- - I'm not laughing . (e)(l)- -passed; (2)--passed; (t)(l)- -passed; (2)--passed; (3) --passed; (g)(l )--passed; (2)--passed ; (h)(1)-- passed; (2)--p assed; (j)(l) --the Honourable Mentber for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairma n, I thinkfrom the Minister's statement that he made at one time and from the bill that we have before us, I take it that the increase in the Family Allowance payments will not change this item one bit, that the allowances will exclude, the social allowance will exclude family allowances so that even if they are increased that the pay ments will still be made on the former basis ? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairm an, the Honourable Member for Rhineland is correct, the regulations do allow now for the passing on of that amount of $20. 00 per month per child to the family in question. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honoura ble Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Ch airman, when could we expect from the Minister some elaboration of his guaranteed annual income program? Would this not be an appropriate time since it presumably is supposed to be an alternative system to the present social allowances ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health.

May 10, 1973 2607 SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairma n, we will deal with that it em under 9(4)( u). MR. CHAIRMAN: (j)(2 ) passed -- MRS, TRUEMAN: Mr. Chairma n, I don't under s tand what the Minister means by (9)(4)(u) . MR. TOUPIN: Mr: Chairma n, on Page 24 . . . MRS, TRUEMAN: I see, it' s - oh, I see (IX) for the whole Depar tment. MR. TOUPIN: (

u) Guaranteed Annual Income Project. MR. CHAIRMAN: Ev erybody happy ? (j)(3)- -The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: I'm sorry I didn't know that you were dealing under (j)(1) with all the different categor ies. I was going to ask the Minister whether ther e's any consideration being given to lowering the age for the aged allowances; what is the age, that limit here, is that the same as the Federal Governm ent's pensioners age ? MR. TOUPIN: 65. MR.

FROESE: Is consideration being given to reducing this to let's say 60, on a stagg ering scale, staggering'rate so that in five years' time it mig ht be down to 60 or . . . MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr. Chairm an, the honourable member I think is aware that I and other members of Cabinet have made represen tations to the Federal Government to have the age lowered to 60 on a gradual basis if need be, and when that is done we will follow suit. MR. FROESE: Well, Mr.

Chairm an, I feel that we could make the cha nge without the Federal Government, bas ing it on the Federal Govern ment' s age limit or restridio ns, what ever they have. Certain ly we can go on our own program . I would suggest that when we have the teachers go on pension at 60, I think we should give consideration to our other people changing t h e limit here to 60 as well. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourabl e Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr.

Chairm an, tha t's something that could be considered as g;overnment policy is discussed, but, you know, we haven 't got the figures here; they're not reflected on the lowering of the age of eligibility. There would be a hefty increase in this appropr iation if we did decide say to go down to 64 or 63 or 60. But that's something that can he discusse d, and hopefully that the Federal Government will, you know, will decide to lower th e age. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Yes, Mr. Chairm an, in this (j)( 1) here we'r e dealing with all the allowances.

The one at the bottom "Other Allowances", that seems to be an awful lot of money. I wonder if the Minister could break it down-- 1, 500, 000. 00. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON : Under this item I intended to have a great deal to say in these estim ates, hut I realize that time is flitting away and I feel that I should be at least parochial with two particular cases, because having mentioned them in speeches earlier in the session, the �linister chose the occasion to say "rubbish" So, Mr.

Chairm an, the first case, and maybe the First Minister would like to weigh this when he goes out into my area, but nevertheless I am quite prepared to tabl e it. This young woman is suf fering with a termin al disease and I have endeavoured over the months to get her some assis tance. She's almost a wheelchair case. Before she was married she was on welfare, unfortunat ely, and having married this disease came upon her and she's now living with her aged par ents who are on old age pension. And it seems, Sir, that months went by and I took up her case and did what I could.

But it was final ized on January 8, 1973, and it says in the letter that was sent to her, said that under the Act, a married couples' income to be elegible under the means test must be under $2, 220. 00. In calculating the income we have to consider earn ings, unemployment insurance benefits and so on. Her husband is now, or was, at last word was on unemployment insu rance getting $70. 00 a week. He earned something in the neighbor hood of $2, 200 last year.

But this woman in spite of every effort she' s made she seems to be tu rned aside, and I 'can' t for the life of me understa nd why the department can' t do some thing for her. I' ve called upon the local office of the welfare to visit with her and they have and they've taken down the detail s. However that letter I quoted from, her last letter in reply to that reads this way, Mr. Chairman; "In reply to your letter I have received, it still stands no different . I need help. Why should I have to involve my husband in this. 9.lre he makes some income, but that' s not H.

If I wasn't disa bled I'd be making some income myself along with

2608 May 10, 1973 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. BILTON cont'd) ..... him and we wouldn't think of you people at all. So please under stand my part. I've been on welfare before I got married, and this disablement I have is permanent not temporary. By this I mean I cannot be healed. Why was I cut off then? I am still suffering, and this being even so, it won't be long, I'll be in a wheelchair or bedridden. " You know, Mr. Chairman, if that good woman was in the hospital the department would be paying $1, OOO a month for her upkeep, and all she's asking for is some subsistance.

I'm prepared to turn these letters over to the Minister, and I would ask him in all sincerity to have it really examined and do something for this poor woman who is not going to be very long upon this earth and we should take this anxiety away from her. The Minister in his earlier remarks in bringing in his estimates spoke rather eloquently and I have nothing but praise for many of the things he's doing, but situations such as this, Mr. Speaker, crop up, people that really are deserving and somehow or other they can't break through the bureaucracy and red tape. Regulations seem to stop them one way or the other.

I've lived under regulations for 20-odd years or more and in my humble opinion they can be bent and bent on occasion to help such a case as this. And again I appeal to the Minister on the floor of this House to do something for this woman and do something fast no matter how he has to bend the regulations, to give her whatever little they can afford to give her. I have another case too. Mr. Speaker, I have a woman in Mafeking, a wheelchair case, and again when I mentioned it earlier in one of my speeches the Minister said rubbish again. --{Interjection)-- Oh yes. Oh yes he did.

However this woman receives a disability pension from the Department of Veterans Affairs and she gets something in the neighborhood of $161 a month and she has a woman that comes into her house each day, a neighbour, and she pays her $40. 00 a month for this service. Of that $40. 00 a month the department pays her $20 a month. But the interesting thing about this, Mr. Chairman, is that when she gets the cost-of-living bonus from Ottawa, maybe $6, 00 as she says in her letter. In fact, I'll read it; "Last Wednes day I had a visit from the social worker from the Department of Veterans Affairs.

He told me that due to the raise in the cost of living they are raising my pension by $6. 00 a month, starting as of January lst. Now I know that as soon as the Welfare Department hears of this, they will deduct $6. 00 from the budget they have set up for me, because that is what they did before. " The Department in many other ways, Mr. Chairman, I'd be less than honest if I didn't say, they've been very good to her in keeping her home in good repair and this sort of thing.

But it seems to me small potatoes that the department would deduct from the $20. 00 they allow her each month that goes towards assistance of a neighbour coming in, it looks to me to be pretty small and absolutely unnecessary. And again I would ask the Minister that somehow or other to look into this case and see that decency will carry the day, because if the Federal Department realized the cost of living is going up, I don't think the province should take advantage of it and deduct what they're giving her month by month. Mr.

Speaker, I have taken a great deal of interest in the retarded children's efforts these past few years and we have a small establishment in Swan River that is doing a tremend: ous job. And on behalf of those people, certainly those that we're caring for, I want to thank the Minister for his effort and his interest and I hope he will continue to do what he is doing and increase upon what he's doing for these unfortunate people. They're doing a grand job in Swan River, Sir, and I ask you to continue to give them your support. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to give an answer to (j)(

l) the 1, 500, OOO Other Allowances. That is composed of a million, two for students assistance, and others, polio victims, etc. , $300, OOO, for a total of a million, five. The honourable member I would argue put my "rubbish " maybe in the wrong context. I may have said rubbish during his contributions to my Estimates but maybe not in the context that he - not in the context of when he was discussing cases that deal with social allowance, where he felt social allowance was warranted.

I plead with the Honourable Member for Swan River to come forward with the two cases that he now mentioned this evening, privately that he give me the names, the addresses, phone numbers so we can check them, and within a week--and the honourable member knows that - that within a week I can give him an answer, give him the reasons why these cases are not given the social allowance that they think they're entitled to.

May 10, 1973 2609 SUPPLY - HEAL TH (MR. TOUPIN cont'.

d) There are so many reasons why, Mr. Chairman, that we cannot go all the way with everyone in the province when need'seems so apparent to a third party sometimes. I'd like to.refer very quickly, because I notice that members are going through my Estimates item by item and in case they do want to pass more this evening, if we take the, you know, the case loads going back say 1971, 1972, 1973, I'm not· going back to '66 up to '72. I'm only taking three years. In 1971, December 1971'the case count was 30, 567. Of that amount there were 79. 3 unemployables.

And we knew that among those considered as unemployed employables that there were some that were unemployable. 1972 - December 1972, total case count 29, 140� Unemployable 86. 1 percent� See the adjustments that were made, cases such as the honour able member is mentioning this evening. March 1973, case count 26, 598; it's went down since. Unemployables, 91. 7 percent of all those case counts, unemployables. There was 0. 9 supplementary income, unemployed unemployables 2. 2 percent. That's at March 1973, 2. 2 percent - 574 cases . Student aid 4. 2 percent, 1, 127. Potential employables VRS - O. 97 - 259 cases.

So we are doing a job, trying to weed out the cases that the honourable member is talking about. And I can assure him that we'll look into the two cases that he forwarded to me this evening. Thank you. MR, CHAIRMAN: (j)( 4) The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS, TRUEMAN: I did want to speak just very briefly on the Mothers' Allowance cases particularly. I realize .we've pr,etty well exhausted this subject of social assistance during the past year with the debate on-the Barber Report and so on.

But-I wanted to make one more appeal to the government to try a little harder to do the right thing by the people who are on mothers' allowances. I suppose there aren't very many people in our society who fall into such tragic circumstances as this group of women. For whatever reason a husband or father moves out leaving the mother to bring up a family by herself .

Then they find themselves cast on public welfare because even though they may get court orders for maintenance, the enforcement procedures are so weak and governments say that they find it so costly to search out the father and make him comply with the court order that it doesn't pay. Well as a result this man can escape his responsibilities, he can simply move out, move down the street, perhaps set up another household in a common-law relationship, eventually he may move on·from there when his responsibilities became too great .

And in fact a man who doesn't face up to his responsibili ties can leave a string of mothers' allowance cases aHd the government simply seems to con done that practice. Something like 42 percent of the cases receiving social assistance, per haps it's even higher than that now, are deserted, separated, divorced or unmarried mothers. I think they deserve to have a better lot. Their allowances are low because they are trapped in their homes by their welfare situation.

They find themselves with nothing for recreation, they lose their social contacts and I just think that it's a pretty miserable situation that the government can't do something more constructive to help these women. I did want to note too, Mr. Chairman, that the aged allowances have dropped almost $8 million this year and I wanted to ask the Minister whether this doesn't account to a large extent for the reduction in his total welfare caseload and costs and whether this is the result of the increased old age pension and guaranteed income supplement program that has been improved just recently.

MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: I wanted to make one or two comments in connection with -- ask a question on municipal assistance. This is down very considerably from last year. Last year we had an allocation of $10� 185, OOO; this is down to $6, 900, OOO. This is a very considerable reduction, and I would like to know from the Minister the reason for this. I'm sure there must be some explanation an�-(Interjection)-- yes. And the other one, I might as well put the question now so that it might speed up things. That is under the Disabled Persons' allowance.

Who is entitled to this type of an allowance and what is the rate being paid? Is there quite a variance between the different cases? On what are the payments based? Are they based on salaries received before they were disabled or what is the basis on which the payments are made for the disabled. MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health.

2610 May 10, 1973 SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. TOUPIN: Well Mr. Chairman, one of the reasons - well I won't comment on the remarks made by the Member for Fort Rouge. I accept her concerns especially for those on Mothers' Allowance and I feel that, you know, I for one feel that more can be done and there will be more done as the honourable member is aware as of the lst of May.

We will be act ually putting a heavier emphasis on those that are wanting to avail themselves of addil;ional services that will be offered through the Department of Health and Social Development especially those on Mothers' Allowance that are wanting to avail themselves of day care facilities and so on, with the new - well the new rates that will be coming effective May lst and with the program of day care facilities that will be available to them based on the ability to pay.

So I feel that this is really a step in the right direction In regards to the reduction, the hefty reduction in the aged's allowance from 13. 3 million to 5. 6 milJion , there's nine million that was transferred from there to the Health Services Commission because of the new nursing home policy becoming effective on the lst of July, 1973. The Member for Rhineland was asking why the great reduction in municipal assistance. Well as the honourable member is quite aware, municipal assistance deals with the unemployed employables only. That is the :responsibility of municipal authorities.

Since they are res ponsible for only the unemployed employables and with the new policy of VIC Unemployment Insurance, they are picking up a larger portion which was their responsibility previously, and job creation, work activity has had a great impact in this

section for the unemployed employables. What has been done by the Department of Health and Social Development not only is applicable to those unemployed unemployables with our department and local govern ment districts but equally to municipalities. We are co-ordinating our efforts in that regard. Of the 5. 6 million dollars, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge was asking, there's $300, OOO for the three month period from April lst to June 30, 1973 which remains in the Estimates. There's $2. 6 million for aged and community or non nursing homes. I hope that answers the questions.

As far as the last question of the Honourable Member for Rhineland, disabled person's allowances, I haven't got an answer for him now. I could take the question as notice and get him an answer. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Chairman . . . MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS, TRUEMAN: The Student Aid group seems to have disappeared in the General Social Allowances category and I wanted to ask the Minister about the - I've noted that the Student Aid enrollment has been dropping. In 1970 there were 3, 170 who received assistance.

In 1971 that had dropped by almost half to 1, 687 and in '72 it was agaia down to 1, 363. And I wondered how the Minister would account for the decreasing number of people who are getting student aid. Does this mean that a ceiling has been applied or have the rules of eligibility changed, or have we simply caught up with the need? MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR, TOUPIN: Well first of all, Mr. Chairman, the question was indirectly asked by the Member for Rhineland and I indicated to him that in (

j) Other· :\llowances of a million, five, there was a million, two for student aid and there is a reduction when you look at the last three years and the beginning of 1973. For 1971 the honourable member made reference to 1, 687 on student aid which was 5. 5 percent; 1972 was 3. 8 percent, 1, 115, OOO, and as of March 31, 1973 there were 1, 127 - 4. 2 percent of the caseload was on student aid. There has been certain changes in regards to CAP and the part that the Federal Govern ment was willing to cost-share with the province in regards to student aid and we're going according to that policy.

The bulk of student aid is picked up by the Department of Colleges and Universities but the policy is to continue, that part for those students that are considered in need through the Department of Health and Social Development. MR. CHAIRMAN: ((j)(5) to (m)(

l) of Resolution 58 were read and passed. ) The Hon ourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS, TRUEMAN: I wonder why Home Care Services is still under (

m) when -- hasn't the major part of it been placed under MHSC? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, there is within this appropriation a million dollars,

May 10, 1973 2611 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ... .. is included in th e 19 73-' 74 to implement our Home Care Program, There is half a million dollars , $500, OOO within the Estimates of the Manitoba Health Services Commission. And agfl.in the comments that I made to the question of the Member for Rhineland is applicable here. That amou.nt could during the year be transferred to the Commission. MR, CHAIRMAN: (n(

l) to r(2) of Resolution 58 were read and passed). The Honour able Member for Rhineland� MR. FROESE: Are we making any heaciway under Venereal Disease, in combatting this problem in Manitoba? I would like to hear from the Minister whether we are doing a proper job or whether thi.s allocation should be increased so that we could get an upper hand in the fight. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR, TOUPIN: Yes, Mr. Chair man, we a.re making headway in the problem of VD.

We have one clinic now and it is the intent to have clinics in all general hospitals to help solve the problem that we have on hand. We are getting very close co-operation on the part of the. ·: medical profession� General Prac 'titioners and so on, to report ca ses and I believe that, you know, that we've went a long ways to deal with the problem.

There's still a lot to be done, but I am very happy to report that the medical profession has really helped the Department of Health and Social Develo pment either directly, because of our pµblic health offices or through our different hospitals in the province , helped alleviate the problem of VD. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: This might be a touchy subject but I think I should ask anyway. When ymng people �o to the doctor for an examination before they get married, are they advised if either party has contracted that disease? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health.

MR, TOUPIN: Oh yes, Mr. ChaJrman , they are , and the case,s are followed. But names are not revealed. MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. TRUEMAN: Again I would like to a,sk the Minister whether if this item , Venereal Disease Control and the previous item , Clinical Services co.uldn't also now he placed under MHSC, the Crown corporation which is supposed to handle all the health pro grams? MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, we could consider that but since th!'l - you know there's very close co-ordina.tion between the Manitoba Health Services Commis,sion and the Department of Health and Social Development. We see no need to do that now. My Deputy Minister is equally Chairman of the Manitoba Health Services Commission. Planning is taking place for both the Department of Health and the Manitoba Health Services Commission, so there's a ready exchange of manpower and statistics pertaining to both the Department and the Commission. But it could be done. MRS, TRUEMAN: . . . on administrative costs keeping it the way it is? MR.

TOUPIN: No I don't believe so, Mr. Chairman. MR, CHAIRMAN: Order please. The hour being 9:00 o'clock, last hour of every day being Private Members' Hour, committee rise and report. I might for the honourable member's information, tell them that as of 9:00 o'clock this evening we have expended 87 hours and 55 minutes in Estimates. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION MR, SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Logan. MR, WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. George that the report of the Committee be received.

MOTION presented and carried.

261 2 May 10 , 19 73 PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SPEAKER: First item on Private Members' Hour this evening is Bill No. 21 Proposed by the Honourable Member for Rupertsland and amended by the Honourable Minister of Education. The Honourable First Minister had 15 minutes left. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, could we have this matter stand. BILL NO, 34 MR, SPEAKER: Very well. Bill No. 34. The Honourable Member for st. Matthews. Bill proposed by the Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WALLY J, JOHANNSON (St. Matthews): Mr. S peaker, I adjourned this on behalf of the Honourable Minister of Highways. MR.

SPEAKER: Minister of Finance. --(Interjection)--Highways, sorry. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker, I am going to be brief. On this particular bill I want to say that I am in no way opposing the bill at all, I think that it's perhaps--the vehicle involved is a good thing and of course we are all, I•m sure, anxious to see any kind of manu facturing taking place in the Province of Manitoba, and give you my assu rance that I'm certainly in favour of that. My only contention is, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that the vehicle of that type j "ust does not fit really under the Snowmobile Act.

And what I would like to see done, if it meets the approval of the Honourable Member for Morris who introduced the bill, that in spite of the - due to the fact that we are going to have a number of amendments coming up very shortly under the Highways Traffic Act, I would ask the honourab!e member if he would agree with me to go along with this assurance, and I am sure that we will be able to fit this particular vehicle under the amendments that we're going to propose under the Highway Traffic Act.

And perhaps when the next session, when we meet the next session again - I hope that we're still back as a government, I'm sure we will - and if I'm still responsible for this particular portfolio, I would also give the assurance to the Members of the House, and particularly the Member for Morris, that we will hope to bring in another bill which would involve>or I shouldn't say involved, but would take in many other vehicles similar to the one that we are dealing with in this particular bill. And perhaps we would be able to call that bill a bill involving all terrain vehicles, or something of that nature.

But in the meantime I would like to, as I said before, I would like to reiterate again, that it's just very difficult to have this particular vehicle under the Snowmobile Act and, as I said also before, that with the new amendments coming in under the Highway Traffic Act, we certainly will be able to give assurance that this particular vehicle will be looked after under those amendments. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I just have a few comments to make on this bill.

As long as the Minister undertakes - makes that undertaking to bring this legislation, but he's telling us that it may be a year from now, and my concern is that he must give a com mitment to the House that it's done during this session.

Because if it's not done now it may put this industry in a serious position because I've had people come to see me, some that have purchased this. machine, and they have friends that want to purchase it and buy the same type of a machine, and they feel if it cannot be pL1t under the same legislation as the snowmobile, under the Snowmobile Act, there may be some difficulty of using this machine. Now the Snowmobile Act, I know is quite restrictive - in some states across the lines that they're able to use the snowmobiles on highways. This is not the case in Manitoba.

They have to be licenced and they can only cross the highway and be used on side roads but not on main highways, so I can see some validity in the Minister telling us that the Highway Traffic Act should be amended. But in the meantime I don't think that he should not amend the hill in case it would put this industry in any jeopardy. So this is the thing that I want to stress to the Minister and to make sure that - gives the commitment to the House that this will take place. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris will be closing debate. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, before the Member for Morris closes debate, I certainly --(Interjection)-- certainly would like to commend the bill to the House, and this

May 10, 1973 2613 BILL NO 34 (MR, FROESE cont'd) .. .. . is rather surprising for a government to reject a bill where they can get money. This is very seldom the case that a government of this type would reject a bill where they were offered money on the plate and to reject it. Normally it's the other way around, and therefore it's quite a surprise to me that the bill is unacceptable to them. I too feel quite strongly that the government should reconsider and give consideration to passing the Act so that this type of machine can be used.

Presently it's very restrictive in its use as long as we will not permit it to come under some act whereby it can be regis tered, and whereby it can be used to a larger extent. And also as has already been said, that we're jeopardizing an industry here in its production, and I feel that certainly we should see to it that where we have industries set up and established and developed that we assist them. and certainly this would be one way of assisting this particular industry without the outlay of funds.

And I sure feel that the Minister who just spoke should reconsider and see to the request to have this bill passed at this time without delaying it for another year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I should like to thank the Minister for his tacit approval of the bill in principle and I, as I understand his remarks his intention is to bring amendments to the Highway Traffic Act in order to accommodate the principle that is involved in this particular piece of legislation.

Well, Sir, when I introduced this bill I consulted with the legal counsel and he presented to me two alternatives. One, amendment to the Highway Traffic Act, and the other one, the amendmant to the Snowmobile Act, and recom mended to me, and I acted on the advice of legal counsel, that by far the better way, the simpler way, would be the passage of an amendment to the Snowmobile Act. Now it was on the strength of that advice that I proceeded with Bill 34.

And I am inclined to agree with him, particularly in the light of the statement that the Minister has now just made, a statement to the effect that an all-terrain vehicle act will be brought into force. Well it would seem to me, Sir, that if that is the case, and I think that that is the desirable objective, then it would be much simpler to pass this piece of legislation, if it's only going to be for a year in any case, so that the vehicle can be accommodated under the Snowmobile Act, it would be much simpler to repeal that particular

section that is incorporated in this bill under the Snowmobile Act, when the all-terrain vehicle act is brought into being. And I think that every way you approach the subject, it seems to me that it's better to pass it this way, if an ATV Act is going to be brought in in any case, and I agree with the Minister regardless of who's in power, I think that such

an act should be brought in to accommodate all of these vehicles. But in the meantime, my concern has been and continues to be that an industry that has located in a rural part of this province, might be jeopardized by the failure of this Legislature to give some consideration to the development of that industry. Jobs are avail able, the market is there. It just so happens, Sir, that the young man who has designed this vehicle and runs the factory is sitting in the gallery tonight. And I think that he will be very pleased if when this bill comes to a vote that it's passed unanimously.

Now when we get into committee, perhaps we can deal further with it there and determine what course of action. But I would hope that it can pass second reading tonight, and in the hope that the Minister will reconsider as to whether or not this is a better way of handling it, since it's only for an interim period in any case, until an A TV act is brought in.

And I want again, to thank the Minister for his co-operation. and his concern over the industry that is located in this province, and in the hope that we can, we can assist him in registering this vehicle so that he can develop the markets that I know are available for it. Thank you very much. MOTION presented and carried.

261 4 May 10 , 19 73 BILL NO. 43 MR. SPEAKER: Public bills, No. 43. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK presented Bill No. 43,

An Act to amend the Manitoba Hydro Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, at the outset, may I indicate that there is an error in the printing which is of a minor nature with respect to the actual subsection that is to be amended. And it would be mY hope that we would follow the normal procedure if the bill is approved of, and I would hope that the government would approve the bill, that at Law Amendments the correction could be.made as it has in other situations where there have been typographical or printing errors ...

And I sort of, there's an indication at least from the House Leader that there is possibility that this Act may be passed. MR. GREEN: I wonder if the honourable member would permit a question at this P.oint? Would the honourable member then agree that just because there's an error in a piece of legislation doesn't necessarily mean it1·s been sloppily drawn without consideration, as I've heard him say so many times when it come from this side of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, with all due respect I think the error was made by the Queen's Printer, and I think that the notice would indicate that in effect the actual typographed form, the form that was typed, included the right subsection. I would then leave it at that, Mr. Speaker. Now let me now deal with the matter, Mr. Speaker, and it's a pretty important one, we're dealing with an area of concern for many people. We face a prospect of a major increase in Hydro rates and I think generally one could say rates are going up for many utilities, Hydro is no exception, but we face it at a time when there is a dispute, Mr.

Speaker, going on in this Legislature, and in the province, as to the nature of the Hydro development taking place, and as to the cost that is to be borne by the people of Manitoba. We are aware of course, Mr. Speaker, that the people of Manitoba are the consumers of Hydro, and in the final analysis are going to be the people who are going to be paying, Mr. Speaker, that are going to be paying for any undue or unnecessary cost over and above what is required for their needs, or for the needs of export and the potential of some savings that could accrue to the people as a result of the ability to export power.

Our Hydro generating power of potential, Mr. Speaker, is one of our natural resources; along with agriculture the use of our water resource is probably our greatest renewable resource. With the approaching crisis that exists in possible fuels, increasing reliance is going to be placed on our Hydro system, and therefore it is important that there be a careful and economic development in this area. Now pricing policy is an important component of Hydro development policy.

The importance of pricing is twofold: pricing policy determines consumption patterns and who will use Hydro power; pricing policy determines the amount of revenue available for future development plans. There are three major categories of power consumers that can easily be identified. First of all there are domestic consumers, both in the urban areas and in the rural areas; secondly, there are industrial arid commercial consumers; and thirdly, there is the potential of export consumers, and price is important to each of these three categories.

Inflation and the high cost of living are a heavy burden for every homeowner and renter in Manitoba. And, Mr. Speaker, I think in view of what has taken place with respect to the whole issue of Hydro there is a need now for a greater degree of protection to be provided against unnecessary Hydro rate increases which only contribute and add to the inflationary pressures for industrial and commercial users of power, and as well as for the domestic consumers, because in terms of industrial and commercial use the rate level can be an important influence. Mr.

Speaker, one of the considerations of the Hydro development, the use of our water resources, was the ability to be able to attract power intensive industry to this province, and it was based on the assumption that reasonable price power would be offered, and with the prospect of substantial increases in costs to be made, Mr. Speaker, it would appear that that possibility for Manitoba will now be extinguished, that the possibility of attracting the major power intensive industries into this province, such as a uranium enrichment plant, is out of question because of the increased costs that are going to occur.

May 10 , 19 73 2615 BILL 43 (MR. SPIVAK cont'

d) Hydro rates can help determine industrial and comme rcial deve lopment patte rns th rough out th is prov ince, and rates also aff ect the price of goods and services produced in Manitoba. Expo rt rates al so influence the level of powe r export and consumption. So, Mr. Speaker, all th e th ree catego ries of consumers are sensitive to price changes, and since Hydro is a public utility, th at means th at th ere are th ree strong reasons why Hydro rates are of great public significance .

Becau se of th e inc reasing sensitivity to price changes in general, and becau se of th e public nature of Manitoba Hydro, we bel ieve, Mr. Speaker, th at an improved procedu re for regulating price changes must be found. The Pr ogressive Conserv ative Pa rty be lieves th at th e key to th is improved procedure lies in submitting all proposed Hydro rate inc reases to th e Pu bl ic Utility Board for examination and approval .

The fact th at Manitoba Hydro is a Crown co rporation, ultimately responsible to th e people, does not in practice guarantee th at its pricing policies will meet Manitoba 's cu rrent or fu ture needs. Ex port pricing is a case in point, and th erefo re Mr. Speaker, th e proposal to have th e Pu bl ic Utility Board regulate Hydro rates, deserves support fo r several reasons. Fi rst, it has at var ious times been supported by both sides of th e House. Second, it would place Manitoba Hydro on th e same foot ing as other utili ties in th is province.

Th irdly, it would open up th e process of Hydro rate-making to a greater degree of public sc rutiny in line with th e philosoph y of open gover nment. And fourthl y, it would protect th e public against export commi tments which contribute to domestic rate inc reases or cr eate th e danger of domestic power sho rtages. Well, Mr. Speaker, th e Honourable Minister of Mines and Natura l Resources shakes his head in some disgust --(Interject ion)-- Now, Mr.

Speaker, for his edificat ion I would like to read to him the presentation on behal f of th e New Democ ratic Pa rty befo re the Pu bl ic Utility Board, when the New Democ ratic Par ty in 19 69, befor e th ey were gover nment, said the fo llowing, and I want th e Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources to listen to th is, and th en after he listens to th is, I want him to see whet her th e policy has changed, when it is chan ged, what convent ion ch anged in th e policy, or is it a fact th at now th at th ey've become gover nment, and now th at they 've dealt with Hydro in such a ridicul ous manner, th at th ey are af raid to leave it to th e pub lic sc rutiny th at th ey wanted befor e. --(Interject ion)-- And I want to quote fr om th e Honourable Minister of Coll eges and Universities' presentation on behal f of th e New Democ ratic Pa rty befo re th e Pu bl ic Util ity Board dealing with the question of Hydro rates, and I want to quote, and I quote in--I can quote the whol e th ing, but I th ink I' ll quote th e relevan t part --(Inte rjection)-- "Now howeve r, Mr.

Speaker"--and I' m quoting th e words of th e Honourable Minister of Co lleges and Unive rsities--"we are faced with a situation wher e th e rates are on th e rise. " Now Mr. Speaker, th is was on April 2nd of 196 9 bef ore th e Pu bl ic Util ity Board, and he said: "I appea r her e, Mr. Speaker, on behal f of th e New Democ ratic Par ty. On th e other hand ... A ME MBE R: Who is th is? MR. SPI VAK: " ... I th ink it is right, Mr.

Speaker, th at any publ ic utility, or any •1ti lity which is gover ned by a board, which is not answerable to th e public sho uld have to jus tif y its inc reases, and as you are probably aware th ere is a resolution bef o re th e Legislature now which will call fo r amendments in th e act wher eby Manitoba Hydro, the same as Manitoba Telephone and othe r utilities, will have to come befor e th e Util ities Board in th e fu ture for any rate inc reases either up or down. " A ME MB ER : Hear hea� ·. MR . SPI VAK: Now , Mr.

Speaker -- (Applause) th e Honourable Minister of Coll eges and Universities, speaking on behal f of th e New Democ ratic Par ty in April of 196 9 -- (Interject ions)- April of 169 --(Inte rject ions)-- Mr. Speaker, th at was th e policy of th e New Democr atic Pa rty in Opposition -- (Interject ions)-- Now, what's th e policy of th e New Democ ratic Pa rty in gover n ment. Well, you're going to have an opportunity, Mr.

Speaker, th e bill is befor e you; if you're consistent in principle you'll pass it -- (Interjectio ns)-- if you do not pass it, -- (Interject ions)- th en you show th e same hypoc risy in th is matte r ... MR. SP EAKER : Order please. MR. SPI VAK: .. . th at you've shown in others. --(Interject ions)-- Mr . Speaker, th e Honourable Minister of Pu bl ic Works can say "rabble rousing", but reall y Mr . Speaker, what

2616 May 10 , 1973 BILL 43 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... we're now demonstrating very clearly, because I'm waiting, I am waiting patiently for this bill to be passed before we go into the election, and so that the consistency will follow logically on the part of the New Democratic Party if their position has not changed.

And I want to quote something more that the Honourable Minister of Colleges and Univer sities expressed on behalf of the New Democratic Party -- (Interjections) -- "So we are con cerned that Hydro seems to have adopted the attitude that when it has to come up with a rate increase" - as it's had to today now - "it is loading the increase on the small user; it is adopting the policy of a business which says that where we have volume users they are prefer., ential customers and will be given a preferential rate, the small users, the homeowners, the ones that Alderman Sparling just.mentioned, are the ones who are paying for the increase.

Hydro may be charging just enough to the large users to break even. I haven't gone into any examination of the cost and I hope the board certainly does, but certainly if the.H ydro is a public utility, if the idea of a public utility is to make available at cost to the people of Manitoba, a basic service, an essential commodity, then it seems to me the question of volume users, or size, should not enter into it . . . A MEMBER: What are we exporting our power for? MR. SPIVAK: ". . . that Hydro should be concerned as a public utility in providing a service to the entire community equitably.

And so we are suggesting that the loading of the higher rates on the small user is unequitable and unfair. " A MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, I am satisfied that if information was furnished the Public utility Board that we would find right now that we are exporting our power at a cost lower than the cost to us, which means that the people in Manitoba are in effect subsidizing the export of our power. -- (Interjections) -- Mr. Speaker, I'm satisfied that that information would in fact be determined by a reasonable examination . . . MR.

ENNS: We do the same thing with pork, we do the same thing with pork in Japan. There's no, there's no ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. SPIVAK: ... and the interesting fact, Mr. Speaker, the interesting fact, Mr. Speaker, is that the Honourable Member from Lakeside talks about an agricultural resource, which we are exporting at below our cost, in which case the people of Manitoba are subsidizing, I am now talking of a water resource, which I suggest the people are also subsidizing. So; Mr.

Speaker, we're faced with a very simple proposal, that we accept the principle that rate increases to be subject to review by the Public Utility Board, that· it should be an independent review, and we do so, Mr. Speaker, not in any abrogation of responsible government . .. A MEMBER: Yes. MR. SPIVAK: Oh, yes . . . SOME MEMBERS: Yes. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Minis ter of Mines and Natural Resources says it's an abrogation of responsible government. Obviously he as a member of the opposition in 169 was against the policy, the declared policy of the New Democratic Party -- (lnterjection)- Now, Mr.

Speaker, what I honestly believe in this particular situation is that the government is not prepared to live up to the kind of principles that they talked about in opposition. A MEMBER: That's right. MR. SPIVAK: Oh yes. Mr. Speaker, the reason I say that is because we will be faced with a phenomenal situation, if a Public Utility Board was given the authority, as I would ask that it be given in this proposal, to in fact examine Hydro costs. Mr.

Speaker, there was an application made, it was not a compulsory application, it was an application made at the request of the government of the day, which was the Conserva tive government, that Hydro proceed to the utility Board for determination. In the final decision given by the board after two public hearings, two sets public hearings, one was in April, the other which took place in December, when the present members became the govern ment, on the government side, the information was supplied and the Public. Utility Board did review of Hydro rates.

They stated that they could not believe that there was not an obligation on their part, both on the basis of the legislation and the request by Hydro, instituted by the government of the day, that it was their responsibility to review fully the Hydro statement, to

May 10 , 1973 2617 BILL 43 (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... understand it and to be able to give some indication of what the rate increases should be. And, Mr. Speaker, it recommended at that time a substantial rate increase. -- (Inter jection) -- Well, it can only recommend, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I have indicated that they recognized, they recognized that it was not a compulsory determination on their part but rather was one for information purpo ses, and they felt there was an obligation on their part to make the review, just as the Public Utility Board does in fact review the gas prices in this province, and just as the utility which is the gas utility must in fact deal with them for prices up and down, and they as sumed at this poin t that there was a responsibility on their part to deal with it in the same way. Now, Mr. Speaker, when the recommendations came down, the government ignored them.

When Mr. Ca ss- Beggs appeared before the committee he basica lly said, we know better in Hydro than the utility Board does on how to judge the rates. Well, Mr. Speaker, must suggest to you that based on Mr. Ca ss -Beggs' performance before the committee, and based on what he is going to cost the people of Manitoba, what he is going to cost the people of Manitoba, Mr. Sp eaker, ... A MEMBER: Where is he now ? MR. SPIVAK: . . . what he is going to cost the people of Manitoba, I don't think that the Hydro Board under him knew better than the Public Utility Board --(I nterjection) -- the Public utility Board's ...

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. SPIVAK: ... determination, Mr. Speaker, of what the rates should be. So, Mr.

Speaker, we have introduced this amendment because we believe that the time has come for the Public utility Board to be given that authority as an obligation, that there in fact should be a check in balance on the Hydro in the way in which it will now apply the increased rates that must occur for the tremendous substantial costs that the consumers and people of Manitoba are going to have to pay for a waste of money, that in words of the First Minister, esse ntially "boggle the imagination" as to the degree of incompetence on the part of the members opposite in handling the use of our water resource. Mr.

Speaker,. we beli eve that if such an adjudication took place we would be in a position to make an assessm ent not only of what this would cost the people--over the past few years have cost the people of Manitoba, but at least we would then be in a position to make some asses sment of how we are going to pay off the fantastic obligations that have been assumed in the billion, seven hundred million-dollar proj ection of cost for the Nelson River project - because it 's going to have to be paid for by somebody, both principle and interest. And we believe, Mr.

Speaker, in suggesting that Manitoba Hydro be obligated now before any rate increase be allowed by any government order, or by any cons ent by government to Hydro of what it can do, before anything takes place, that Manitoba Hydro be obligated to go to the Utility Board, who must direct what the rates would be, that we are in fact applying the prin ciple, the policy, the stated declarations of the New Democratic Party when in opposition. And, Mr. Speaker, if the prese nt government is not prepared to support this bill, they are just a bunch of hypocrites. A MEMBER: That's right. MR.

SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Fin ance. MR. CHE RNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I li stened with interest to the honourable member who introduced this bill. He makes some pretty good arguments, prese nts some position which seems to have some relevance and is certainly deserving of consi deration.

Of course, the Honourable the Leader of the Oppo sition has to fall back on NDP statements, has to fall back on NDP positi ons, even though they may be four or five years old because he is so bankrupt of ideas of hi s own that in between the time that he scurri es around, I suppose, dealing with his constituency organizations, seeing to it what deals they could make with Liberal consti tuency organizations, that in that time that he is so busy with his political aspirations -- (Inter jections)-- dealing with ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I wonder if I may appeal to the honourable members to cut down the interjections or to whisper them, I'm having a very hard time trying to hear the speakers on the floor. The Honourable Minister of Financ e.

2618 May 10, 1973 BILL 43 MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I was just saying-- ! don't want to repeat too much of it--but that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition who is frequently away from the Cham ber on business that no doubt is justified, and no doubt, as I was saying, spends a good deal of time trying to make deals or prevent deals being made in his great effort to play that game of poker. --(Interjection)-- The Honourable Member for Souris-Lansdowne has a loud voice and it ls really loud enough so that he doesn't have to rais.e it for me to understand it.

Nevertheless, the Member for Souris-Lansdowne is concerned about what I'm saying, and all I'm saying and I'm trying to do, is to get to the fact that the Leader of the Opposition he appears so bankrupt in his effort to raise an election is sue that he comes along now quoting NDP policy and no doubt, Mr. Speaker, he's been reading a great deal about what we have said in the past in order to get more and better ideas of how to conduct an effective campaign for his benefit.

And as I say, he is still of course busy, or members of his organization are too busy being involved in this power politics play with the Liberal Party. -'-(Interjection)- To the Member for Souri.s-Lansdowne Mr. Speaker, I must request the Honourable the Member for Swan River to use his mellow and pervasive influence on his colleague from Souris Lansdowne so that he will ... so that he will either stay in the House and listen and be quiet, or leave the House. The trouble, Mr.

Speaker, is that with these introductions, these interruptions, I keep having to come back to my train of thought and in order to find it I have to go back to what I was saying which was, that the Leader of the Opposition must be very busy dealing under the table and over the table with the Leader of the Liberal Party to see how they can cook up the elections to benefit themselves. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Portage. POINT OF PRIVILEGE MR. G. JOHNSTON: On a matter of privilege, I would ask the Minister of Fina nce to retract that statement.

We are making no deals with no one, and I would ask him to retract that statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: If the leaders of the two parties will deny the statements made in the press, which I have read, where they have said that constituency organizations are indeed talking to each other, dealing with each other, making arrangements . MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: The Minister said that two leaders were making were talking deals and I speak for our party, that our leader was not talking deals. -- (Interjections)-- that's what he said. He said the leaders. MR. ENNS: On the same point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside state his point? MR. ENNS: On the same point of privilege,let it be clearly established that the Premier of this province was meeting with certain parties making certain deals. A MEMBER: St. Boniface, St. Boniface. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. A MEMBER: The Premier of this Province on the . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. I wonder if I may appeal to the Honourable Member for Souris-Lansdowne to take his loud voice some place else, please. Thank you. The Honourable Minis ter of Finance. MR. CHERNIAC K: Mr. Speaker, apparently there's ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: .. . point of privilege. The member made a charge. I'm asking him to retract that statement, that the Leader of the Liberal Party was making a deal with the Leader of the Conservative Party. I ask him to retract that. MR.SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that I said, and I believe I was correct in saying, that the leaders of the two parties, or associations of theirs, have been busy making deals. Now if they will deny that they were making deals, and the Member for Portage cer tainly is not aware as to whether or not my conclusion is right, if they will deny that they are

May 10, 19 73 2619 POINT OF PRIVILEGE (MR. CH ERNIAC K cont'd) ..... involved in any discussions, or have been, in any discus sions dealing with dividing up the cons tituencies in some way, then I will certainly reconsider my statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. Order please. ORDER! ORDER ! ORDER ! Will the Honourable Member for Portage sit down pleas e. I would still like to be able to indicate what member will have the floor. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition asked for a point of order. MR. SPIVAK: No, on a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: On a point of privilege, then. MR.

SPIVAK: The challenge has been put to me by the Minister of Fin ance in the man ner that's really not related, and I would put the challenge to him by way of a point of privilege, that if in fact the Pr emier will indicate that he has sat down with the Leader of the Liberal Party and made a deal after the last session as to carving up the province, as reported in the newspaper, then I will be prepared to answer any accusations that the Minister of Fin ance has made, when the First Minister is prepared to stand up and say that he did not meet with the Leader of the Liberal Party. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHE RNIACK: It now appears that the Leader of the Opposition is also accusing the Leader of the Liberal Party of meeting with the Pr emier of this province in order to make deals. So this has been interesting exerci se, Mr. Speaker. Now as I'm saying . MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker ... MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I've come to my feet three times now on a point of privilege. asked the Minister either (

a) to put his evidence on the table, or to retract the statement that the leader of our party was making a deal with the Tory leader. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHE RNIACK: May I ask whether the person making the privilege is also demanding that the Leader of the Opposition retract the statement that he made that his leader of the Liberal Party has been dealing with the Premier. Now he has made that statement - I didn't hear that but, Mr. Speaker, the - thank you.

The important thing is that the Leader of the - the House Leader of the Liberal Party seems to think that it's an adverse thing to say about someone as to making deals. Now I'd just like to know whether, whether the House rules that the suggestion of making deals is one that is reprehensible because if it doesn't apply to the Leader of the Liberal Party, it must apply to candidates of the Liberal Party who are publicly stating that they are making deals. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage. MR. G. JOHNSTON : I rise on a point of privilege, and I ask you to enforce the rules.

A charge was made - I asked the member, the honourable member, to put his evidence on the table or retract the statement. Now, I say this, that if he does not do that, I'm going to stay on my feet and you'll have to have me put out of this House forcibly, because I will not --(I nter je ction) -- I will not put up with that. -- (Interjections) -- That is a smear of the worst order, and I will not put up with it, and if he doesn't withdraw you'll have to put me out of this House, Mr. Speaker. MR. CH ERNIACK: On the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR.

CH ERNIACK: I am really interested. I do have a certain amount of respect for the Legi slature and for the Member for Portage. I want him to clarify for me, so that I can consider his demand, as to what exactly is reprehensible about the statement that I made so I could more fully decide what he's talking about. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable -- (Interjection) -- Order please ! One at a time. You'll all get your opportunity. The Honourable House Leader on the same poin t of order. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on the poin t of privilege that was raised by the Honourable Member for Po rtage la Prairie.

He suggests that there is a rule of the House that if a member says that something is taking place, which by the way is not an insult or an attack or anything of that kind, but that people are talking -- (Interjections) -- Mr. Speaker, things that the most reputable newspapers in our province say should be taking place, that if this is a charge, that the honourable member must withdraw that charge unless he puts some

2620 May 10, 19 73 POINT OF PRIVILEGE (MR. GREEN cont'd) . . . . . papers on the table. Some proof on the table. Mr. Speaker, I know of no rule of the House of Commons which suggests that that is a breach of privilege. I do know, I do know, Mr. Speaker, that the Honourable Member for Portage wants to. be thrown out of this House. He has done it before, he has now threatened the Speaker that.unless he gets his way he will stand there until he is thrown out of the House.

The honourable member has a very difficult time getting his name in the paper ; he now sits in the back benches; he asked for the privilege to be thrown out of the House several years ago. At that time he got some newspaper publicity. Apparently he's been in the background since that time, wants to get thrown out of the House again, Mr. Speaker, and I think he should be accommodated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition on the same matter of privilage. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, with all due respect to you, Sir, I think that what has happened and what is being allowed to happen refl ects seriously on the conduct of the House by you. The Honourable Minister of Finance has ineffectively attempted to get away from dealing with the is sue bef ore us which is an amendment of the. Hydro Act, and in turn, Mr. Speaker, has allowed this House to be used for a purpose whlch everyone understands, but should never have been allowed in the context of the debate on Hydro. And, Mr.

Speaker, with all due respect to you, Sir, and to the Minister of Finance, it is about time that someone take hold of this House and allow us to continue and fini sh the business of the Legislature of this province. We will have plenty of time on the hustings to deal with the insin uations, the accusations, and the smears, and we'll deal with that as effectively as we can. And surely we can at least accommodate ourselves to act like responsible legislators for the remaining period of the session bef ore the election is called. (Applause) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance on the matter of privilege.

MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I'm anxious to speak on the bill that is befo re us. I don't know how much of the time has been eaten up by this discussion but I hope I will have suff icient time, I hope I will have suff icient time to complete my remarks. MR. SPEAKER: Order please ! Order please. Order please. -- (Interjections)-- Order please! Is the House in favour of me adjourning the House for the evening? Order please. ORDER PLEASE !

Would the House kindly direct the Chair whether they would like to adjourn so they could all get together and discuss at the top of their voices whatever they wish to dis cuss. --( Interjection)-- The Chair is amenable to that. The Leader of the Offi cial Opposition just now says someone has to get ahold of the House, but why doesn't he help the Chair by insi sting that people at least close to him adhere to the rules that he's asking me to adjudicate. I would like to ask that of every member in this House. I do not wish to lecture anyone, but you all have to co-operate.

There is no way one individual in the Chair can do anything for this House unless we all collectively wish to raise the decorum of this House. I appeal to everyone of the members in the House and those that are missing should be so informed that this appeal is going out. That we all co-operate and do what is called for as legislators. Now the floor is open to the Minister of Finance. I have not credited the time to him that was taken up in the debate in respect of privilege.

I find no rule that indicates that I have to indicate to the Minister of Finance that he cannot express an opinion and have to prove that opinion, and that is what I understood the Honourable Minister of Finance was doing. He was making a speech and expressing some opinions. Now if we can proceed from there, I shall indicate to the Honourable Minister he has 15 minutes. He only used five minutes up until now. --( Interjection)-- The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I rise on the privileges of the members of this House.

The Minister stood in his place and I clearly heard him to say that - and it was not in his opinion, he made the flat statement, he made the statement, in fact it was a charge, that my leader and the leader of the Cons ervative Party were making a deal. I have denied that, I have denied that and I asked him to retract and he has refused to retract. I have asked him to put his proof on the table. He ignores that question. I have asked you, Sir, to rule on the matter. When a member makes a charge against another member that unless he can prove the charge, he is required to withdraw. And I ask you, Sir, to rule.

Either make his withdraw or make a ruling so I can challenge your ruling. MR. SPEAKER: I will make no ruling but I will indicate that one of the members who was mentioned in that opinion is present. He is not insisting on that I carry out some rule which isn't

May 10, 19 73 2621 POINT OF PRIVILEGE (MR. SPEAKER cont'd) ..... necessa ry and there is no ... Order please. I wish I would have the courtesy from all the honourable members that when I'm trying to explain what is going on they would give me that opportunity. Now as I've said, I cannot adjudicate a rule which has not been broken. One of the parties to that opinion was in the House, he has not insi sted. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie insists I do something on behalf of someone who is not here, who cannot prove that it's not taking place. I shall leave it up to the . . . Order please.

Would all the honourable gentlemen again give me the privilege of getting completed in my remarks before they insist. Now I hope we can get along together and get this debate over with. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order ... MR. SP EAKER: I haven't sat down yet. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I have never, I must say with all due respect, that the conc ept developed that there is an obligation on one party who's mentioned to ri se because another party has ri sen in connection with it, is one that I just can't understand, I can't fathom.

But so the record will be clear, Mr. Speaker, and because I think it's necessa ry, the statement of the Honourable Minister of Finance, which was deliberately contrived, and I suggest, with intent, with resp ect to this particular iss ue, the statement is not a correct one, but so that the statement will be understood fully, so I will explain what I think has been explained in the papers and certainly what has been confirmed by me. We are a democratic organization, not an autoc ratic organization like the New Democratic Party, Mr. Speaker.

The determination and decisions of what the constituency will do will be made by the people at the local level, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please ! MR. SPIVAK: The Mini ster of Municipal Affairs laughs, because the autocrats on the other side do not understand that. Mr. Speaker, nominating meetings are held by the New Democratic Pa rty without notices being called, in basements and in homes where decisions are made of who should be running in which area. That can be proven, Mr. Speaker, without question. -- (Interjection)-- Oh, yes, Mr. Speaker. Our organization operates ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I do believe the honourable gentleman has explained enough. He' s gone probably beyond an explanation to a debate and argument. I hope we can proceed from there. The honourable --( Interjection)-- I don't know, if the Honourable Leader of the Opposition wishes to debate that particular iss ue he has already done so. -- (Interjec tion) -- Order please. Thank you. The Honourable Minister of Finance. -- (Interjection) - The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie state his matter of privilege now. MR. G. JOHNSTON: The Member for Osborne can bray all he damn well wants but I'm not letting this pass.

The Member for St. Johns has made a charge, I've asked him to sub stantiate the charge or withdraw it. And, if he does neither one, Mr. Speaker, I ask you to make a ruling on the matter. And I'm telling you right now, I'm not letting that smear pass, if we stay here till 4:00 in the morning. MR. SP EAKER: Order, please. I would ask, if the honourable member wishes me to adjudicate to also conform to the rules of the House in not threatening the House or any member of the House. If we're going to have rules then we all have to abide by them, we can't just use them for ourselves individually.

I would appeal to the honourable member to be just as care ful when he makes a statement. Now I shall turn to the Honourable Minister of Finance and ask him to give his explana- tion or take his retraction, whichever he wants to do. MR. CHE RNIACK: Mr. Speaker, you mean on the matter of privilege, do you? MR. SPEAKER: On the matter of privilege. MR. CHE RNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I have yet to understand whether members of this House consider the question of making deals in politica l situations in constituenc ies to be reprehensible.

If it is, if it is reprehensible, if it is objectionable, then the fact that I may have wrongly alluded to two people as being involved would be something I would have to with draw. If the action is not reprehensible, if it is not something that is in any way downgrading, then it certainly could not be a smear. And if it is not a smear then all I can do is acc ept the statement of the Leader of the Opposition that he was not involved in any deal. And if the Leader of the Opposition said that he was not involved in any deal I would accept his statement.

2622 May 10, 19 73 POINT OF PRIVILEGE (MR. CH ERNIACK cont'

d) But the Member for Portage la Prairie seems to make it clear in his mind that the fact that deals are being made is something that is so reprehensible that the mere statement that they're being made is something which I would have to withdraw, because it's a smear. Now let me get it, let me understand. Is it a smear to say that deals are being made? Because, Mr. Speaker, I believe the newspapers, that deals are being made. A MEMBER: They are over there. MR. CH ERNIACK: No, between the Liberals - deals between the Liberals and the Conservatives.

Now I really would like to deal with the bill bef ore us. -- (Interjections) -- MR. SPEAKER: I wonder if I may appeal to the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney again. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I rise on a point of order. The point or order is that when you asked the Minister of Finance to clarify, either retract or stand by his statement, he deliber ately twisted his original statement to mean other people.

He did mention, and I stand cor rected, let members correct me if I'm wrong, but he did say that the Leader of the Liberal Party and the Leader of the Cons ervative Party were making a deal, or deals. He did not say until he became in difficulti es over this matter that it was other people. I ask him to retract the statement or else table the evidence that my leader and the other leader were making a deal--not other people. Anybody on the street can meet and talk, not other people, we're talking about his statement.

His original statement was that my leader and the leader of the Cons ervative Party were somehow dealing to do something. Would he deny what I'm paraphrasing is what he said, are you denying that now ? Are you denying it? --(Interjection) -- All right, I ask the member once again, who I have high regard for, but I consider this pretty dirty pool to do what he is doing at this moment, to do what he is doing at this moment, to smear the names of people who go into politics for what they think is right, and then to suggest --(Interjections)-- not by me, but by position in a Party, that they have made a deal. · MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. MR . G. JOHNSTO N: Then when he gets up to explain, he says "Oh no, he didn't mean that. " MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. The honourable member said he had a point of order. I fail to find a point of order. He was still on the matter of privilege. The Honourable Mini ster of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I thought I made it clear that when the Leader of the Opposition said he was not involved in deal making, I acc epted his statement. If the Leader of the Liberal Party would say that, I would accept his statement. But Mr.

Speaker -- (Interjec tions) -- A MEMBER: What about the front benches, how about . . MR. CH ERNIACK: Now somebody else said that about him. Do you want me to withdraw a statement made by the Leader of the Opposition, about the First Minister. Look how ludicrous it becomes, Mr. Chairman. The point that I want to get across is whether or not members opposite who are doing all the yelling, including the Member for Portage la Prairie, considers it reprehensible that deals be made and when it's attributed to two people maybe wrongly, that it is a terrible thing that was done.

If he says so I'll withdraw it. -- (Interjections)-- I made a statement that the two were dealing. Now, now the Leader of the Opposition withdrew, said he didn't. If the Leader of the Liberal Party said he didn't, okay he didn't, but I would only have to withdraw a statement if it is made in terms of a smear as being something repre hensible. If it's repre --(Interjection)-- oh, then I must share with the Member for Portage la Prairie the fact that dealings that take place of that nature are reprehensible. He said from his chair that he.thinks so, I accept it. Now may I go on with the bill, Mr.

Speaker. --( Inter jection)-- MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside have a point of order ? MR. ENNS: Yes, no, on a point of privilege, point of privilege. I don't think that there is anything reprehensible about anybody trying to get rid of this government. MR. SPEAKER: That is not . . . MR. CHE RNIACK: That brings me back right to the bill, right to the bill, Mr. Speaker, because the people in the Cons ervative Party who had the administration of this government for

May 10, 19 73 2623 POINT OF PRIVI LEGE (MR, CHERNIACK cont'd) ..... some number of years are now scrambling to do their best to get back here any way at all, and the Member for Lakeside has made it clear. Any way at all they'll get back. And the Leader for the Opposition (Applause) . . . MR, SPEAKER: Order please. ORDER PLEASE ! I do believe we have cleared up the point of order and the matter of privilege. I would like to indicate to the Honourable Minister that he has 12 minutes. Will he now deal with the bill before us. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I am dealing with this bill as being brought by the Leader of the Opposition who quotes NDP policy . . . MR, SPEAKER: Order please. MR. CHERNIACK: . . and who then, and who then--the Member for Lakeside also wants to be thrown out. MR. SPEAKER: That's right. Order please. Order please. ORDER PLEASE! ORDER PLEASE ! Would the Honourable Member for Lakeside like to take his place outside if he's going to shout. ORDER PLEASE ! ORDER PLEASE ! ORDER PLEASE ! The honourable gentleman sit down. I will have to name the honourable gentleman if he doesn't sit down. Let me indicate- -ORDER PLEASE !

Let me indicate, I am adjourning the House, it is time, because the members just will not go the full limit of the debating; some of them just do not adhere to the rules. I have appealed from the Chair here, not once this evening, for a whole hour I have been appealing and some people just do not co-operate. --( Interjection)-- Order please. That's precisely what my problem is, that everyone thinks they have to shout. I know the House Leader wishes I should go for another two minutes; certainly he's entitled to have the floor. The Honourable House Leader, MR, GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I think that sometimes things done under stress of ex asperation are not good precedence. I don't think that the Speaker should take it upon himself to adjourn the House. We should reflect upon that. The rules say how long the House con tinues or what then should occur. I think that he should let the Minister of Finance complete his remarks till 10 o'clock. MR, SPEAKER: I do not intend to discuss the rules between the House Leader and myself, but I think he's in error. The Honourable Minister of Finance has one more minute to. MR, CHERNIAC K: I have two minutes left. MR, SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK : Mr. Speaker, I have two minutes --(lnterjection)-- MR, SPEAKER: It's been done, it's been handled, it's finished. The Honourable Minister of Finance. Would the Honourable Member for Arthur state his point of order. MR. WATT: My point of order is that the Honourable the Minister of Finance has made the statement a moment ago that this side of the House would do anything to get back on that side of the House. In the face of the fact that it has been the announced policy of the govern ment on that side of the House to conduct a dirty . . . MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please. Order please. The hour of 10 o'clock having arrived, the House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 10:00 a. m. tomorrow morning.

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-5-95
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 5th hansardpdf 95.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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