PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. February 28, 1977

February 28, 1977 Tape 595 PK - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Ron. members will recall that on Friday two points of very closely related were brought up, and I said that I would The points of order related to oral given by the hon. member from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) and by the hon. member from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) with respect to replies from different ministers, in the first case, the Minister of Mines and Energy, in the second case, the hon.

Minister of Justice,the oral notice that they were dissatisfied with the answer and wish to debate the matter on Thursday. In making a decision on this I refer hon. members to the quite specific wording of Standing Order 31 (

g) which I will read: "A member who is not satisfied with the response to an oral question, or who has been told by Mr. Speaker that his question is not urgent or not of public importance, may give notice that he intends to raise the subject-matter of his question on the adjournment of the House.

The notice referred to herein,' whether or not it is given . . - - · ·orally during the Oral Question Period, must be given in writinst to the Speaker not later than 4:30 p.m. of the same day." Now obviously an hon. member's doing what is totally voluntary,which is not required, they cannot,in my opinion, pfejudice their right if in fact they do what is required, and what is required is that by 4;~0 of that day they give written notice.

The giving of oral notice does not put the matter within the purview of a decision for Thursday, and giving oral notice and refusing to give or not giving written notice does not bring it within the purview either.

Because what the Standing Order says "That the notice referred to herein, whether or not it is given orally must be given in writing to the Speaker not later than 4:30 of that day." So certainly the given of oral notice, which is totally gratuitous and has no immediate effect could not, in my opinion, prejudice whatever right an hon. member would have in doing what is required of him if he wishes the 1633

February 28, 1977 Tape 595 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker; matte~ to be under consideration for Thursday. With respect and judging from the argum:ent given, although that was technically the point of order, I think wha.t hen. members were really trying to get at was ---·-- -- -- -·- -·-- 1634

Febraury 28, 1977 Tape no. 596 Page l - mw Mr. Speaker. whether the matter would be permissible for debate at 4:30P.M. Thursday, assuming that what is required to be done, had in fact been done, assuming that. In one of the replies it was not a substantive answer. It was a general response to the effect that the hon. minister did not, in fact, wish to answer it because he thought it might prejudice negotiations, etc. In the other answer there was a specific substantive answer, and the subject, at least, suggests itself, when there is no specific answer, whether that can be debated.

But I think the Standing Order is quite clear on that, because it says, '~y give notice that he intends to raise the subject matter of his question." In other words it is not the answer which is debated. If words mean what logic suggests they mean, what he intends to debate is the subject matter of his question on the adjournment of the House.

So I think from the Standing 0%ders it is quite clear, numbet one, that the giving of oral notice, which is not necessarily a gratuitous act, could not prejudice an hon. member's right to give written notice if in fact he wished to do so, and number two, whether the question was answered substantively or not has nothing· to do with a person's ability to debate the subject matter of the question, because that is somewhat different than the answer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 0 0 0 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker - MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to rise on two matters -+f privilege~- -~ Aiid fir_st_o£~1~ t~~ugh--; Mr. Speaker, if I may, I would \ like to say how pleased we are to see the Minister of Industrial Development in his seat notwithstanding the events of the weekend. We are very pleased to see him back on his feet. AN HON. MEMBER: A hard weekend, boy! MR. SIMMONS: We heard some news, Mr. Speaker , and we are just welcoming him back in the House. That is all. I meant well. But if the welcome is out of order, withdraw - it. 1.635

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 596 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: Do not be so sensitive. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on two matters of privilege, one a matter of personal privilege and the other a matter affecting the privileges of the House. I refer you, Mr. Speaker, to the rough draft of the verbatim report of Friday, February 25, this past Friday. The page I refer to is labelled, tape 578, page 1, and I would like to quote from a statement made by the member for Bay of Islands ~~r!__Woodrow...::.l in which he said ._ that: I, as the member for Bay dt 'Espoir, had called the bon. Premier a liar.

His actual words were: "Called the Premier a liar." That statement by the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrowr Lis completely untrue. At no time did I state that. It is a completely untrue statement unfounded on fact. And it is one of the two reasons why I rise at this time and raise this point of privilege. I will come to the other matter shortly. A check of the verbatim report, Mr. Speaker, for Wednesday, February 2, opening day, will readily confirm that I did not at any time call the Premier a liar, as the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) alleges.

I refer you to page sixty of the verbatim report for Wednesday, February 2. The Premier had said a couple of times during his remarks, first earlier in his statement on page fifty-three he had said, and I quote: "One time if a development association spoke up against the government that would be the end of the funding." He 1.636

February 28, 1977 Tape 597 IB-1 MR. SD~NS: subsequently said the essence of that again in these words. "One time if they were criticized,.as I said, they would be cut off." ' Then there was a brief exchange. The Premier then went on to say in response to me and the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), he said, 11The fact is this is not the time for interrupting the House." When he said 'the time for interrupting' I said, "Or for telling a direct lie." I repeated that. The Premier said, "Pardon?", and I said, "Or for telling direct lies". Mr.

Speaker, I acknowledge that I said as the record will show that I felt the Premier had told the House and the people of Newfoundland a direct ·lie. During the period to which the Premier ref'erred in his statement I had been actively involved in development association activities both as president of the Green Bay Development Association and as a member of the Newfoundland and Labrador Rural Development Council. I therefore, Mr. Speaker, knew first hand that the Premier's statement, that public funding had been cut off if a Development Association spoke up against the government was blat~~~y _ untrue.

He had no foundation,in fact,whatsoever, completely false. 0-· HICK!WI: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman r Burgeo - HR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it - MR. ROWE: A poi~t of privilege has precedence over a point of ~der, Mr'. Speaker. - ---·-- MR. WHITE: The minister should know it. Sit down. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please~ The question now is whether when a point of privilege is being ~made to what extent a point of order can interrupt it. A point of order cannot in fact interrupt a previous point of order and a point of privilege can interrupt a previous point of order.

We would have to do some considerable research to see to what extent a point of order can make an interruption during a point of privilege. A point of 1637

February 28, 1977 Tape 597 IB-2 ¥-R. SPEAKER: privilege does take precedence over everything else before the House. So '!mless bon. members wish to adjourn for a specific ruling on that, then I would suggest the hon. member continue with his point of privilege. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. RICK}l'..AN: Mr. Speaker, I would like a specific ruling on that. :fi1R. SP~.: Order, please! ~ I believe the hon. member wishes to have a '\ We shall therefore adjourn for a few minutes. specific ruling. :1638

February 28, 1977 Tape 598 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Does Mr. Speaker wish to hear argument before he gives his ruling? MR. SPEAKER: Well the first ruling I have to give is whether in fact I can hear argument on the point of order. Now the han. member for __ ~~~~o-~~y d 'Espoir was speaking on a point of privilege when the han. Minister of Justice got up on a point of order. I adjourned to consider whether in fact a point of order may interrupt consideration of a point of _privilege. It is clear in Beauchesne that a point of order may not interrupt another point of order.

It is also certainly the general practice that when a point of privilege is being made it is heard out and any decision that is necessary is then made upon it. However the hon. Minister of Justice,as I understand it,wishes to • know whether in the strict sense as of right he may get up on a point of order. It is not the usual practice which I am required to inform the-- Unusg_ but· it is that strict question, whether the han. gentleman as of -right may now make a point of order during the course of the point of privilege. I refer to May, page 441. I will read the relevant

section and give my

interpretation of it, how I see it has to apply here.

"Although it is the duty of a Speaker to interfer in the first instance for the preservation of order,when in his judgement the occasion demands ~~-: 'interference, it is also the right of any member Who conceives that a breach of order has been committed 1 if a Speaker refrains from interferring either because he does not consider it necessary to do so or because he does not per.aeive - that a breach of order has been c~~tted~to rise in his place interrupting any member who may be speaking and direct the attention of the Chair to the matter provided he does so the moment the alleged breach of order occurs.

When a member speaks to order he must simply direct attention to the point compla!ne .d' of and_ submit it" to the decision of the Speaker." ~~~, .. - ·7 .. : _.:: _ _,. Tflere- being no authority that I am aware of to the contrary, there .. -~ - ,~ . .;.y.,~. ""=~.- .,J' . ,J b~ liO: ·specific rule such as there is on a point of order interrupting • ~t ••• .' -~ b._ • -~ a_: pai'Dt .,of order and sfnce the han. gentleman wishes a decision on his . ~ -- 1639 :.

February 28~ 1977 Tape 598 IB-2 MR.. SPEAKER: specific right to raise the point of order, then I will hear the point of order. SOME RON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! MF,. SPEAKER: The bon. ¥inister of Justice. · Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The point of order that I was ris'ing on was this - and I want to make it very clear it was not to argue 'or infringe upon the bon. gentleman from Burgee-Bay d~E~pof:!'~!; (Mr.

Simmons) right to rise on a point of personal privilege, but rather to draw to the attention of Your H~our the obligation of any bon. member rising on a point of personal privilege to stick precisely to the issue giving cause to that point of privilege.

I was directing Your Honour's attention to the fact that the bon. gentleman had started to embark upon his experience with developmental associations or councils which had nothing to do with the point of privilege upon which the bon. gentleman had risen and was bringing to the attention of the Chair, namely, that one hon. member had alleged that he had called another hon. member a.liar and th~~on. gentleman had read therefrom. That I submit, Mr. Speaker, is the only issue upon Which the point - - of privilege can be based and is bef9re the Chair. MR.. SPEAKEP. : On that point of order.

Certainly the rule as stated by the bon. Minister of Justice is precisely and correctly stated, that in speaking to a point of privilege an hon. member is required to ------ keep his remarks strictl y to the alle ed brea ~g o ~ ~r iv ileg e that he has under consideration. --- The bon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MP_. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps in fairness to t he Minister of Justice the confusion arises over the fact that I am raising two matters of privilege simultaneously and I said that at the beginning of my statement.

One relating to a statement that t he member for Bay of I slands (Mr. Woodrow) had made on Friday and a second 1640

February 28 9 1977 Tape 599 AH-1 MR. SIMMONS: arising out of some information that has come to my knowledge as of Friday, because in checking out some background in relation to his statement, I found some other information which I am coming to and so that in both instances I am raisingth~ _matters - . -- of pri:_vilege !t the -~irst pos~ible opportunity. Now _!!.thstaJ!diil_~ ----- the fact · that one of the matters of privilege is based on an exchange that took place here just about a month ago, on February 2. To refresh memories , Mr.

Speaker, in view of the long interruption just let me say that I have risen on two matters of privilege, on Friday the member for Bay of Islands, as I have indicated from the rough draft of the verbatim report, alleged that I had quote 11 called the Premier a liar, . I have already said that that statement is blatantly untrue and is not founded on fact. I have referred you, _ ~ .....

Spe~ke~ ~ and the House to the verbatim report of Wednesday, February · 2nd which will very readily confirm that I did not say at that time that the Premier- did not call the Premier a liar, as the member for Bay of Islands alleges : ~ I had said at that time and I acknowledge that I had said that he had told a direct lie. I acknowledge, should have chosen other words to observe arliamentary niceties but the ess ence of my remarks on opening day would have been the same, namely that the Premier had made a false statement to the House on opening day. On that particular day, Mr.

Speaker, I was particularly disturbed about the PretD:ter' s deception ?ecause die electro~ ic media - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I believe that I would have to ~ ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw the word deception. \ MR. SIMMBNS" I am quite happy to do that,. I used it in the understanding that I had not alleged a deliberate deception and I have been of the understanding that deception was parliamentary., But it has been ruled before in this House, Mr. Speaker, that deliberate : 1641.

February 28,1977 Tape 599 AH-2 MR.. SIMMONS : deception may not be used, however if deception is also unparliamentary then I shall be very happy to withdraw it. MR. SPEAKER: I would regard the term as unparliamentary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, on that particulan: day the Premiers f alse statement was all the more disturbing to me because he was making it> not only to the House and those in the gallery,but at a time when the electronic media were recording the proceedings for broadcast· purposes. Now, Mr.

Speaker, since the Premier made that statement, I have had an opportunity to check with a number of people who were and/or are in positions in the Department of Rural Development and~r the former Department of Community and Social Development. Two former ministers of the Community and Social DevelopmentDepartment,one Liberal and one P.C.,have told me that there is not a shred of truth in the Premier's statement. In addition two officials of the former department- MR. HICKMAN: _Mr.

Speaker, ,_on a point of ordez:; _ The hon. gentleman is doing precisely what Your ~onour ruled that he is not entitled to do under these rules. The only iss~e before this House is whether or not, No. one. there has been a breacl:~ of personal privilege when the hon. member from Bay of Islands on Friday alleged that the hon. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir on opening day, called the hon., the Premier a liar. The member opposite rose today on a point of personal privil~geand -said. 11 that is not true and my privilege has been offended as u ·a member of this House. I said, quote, 11 the hon.

Premier had told a direct lie" that , Mr. Speaker, is the only issue that the hon. gentleman could conceivably rise on . on the question of personal privilege and I s~bmit that when the hon. gentleman starts to get into a debate as to the accuracy or otherwise of the hon. the -----Premier's statement is not at allr~levant, i~ any way relevant and not admissibie and is certainly most assuredly not a second point of privilege : -If it was it would have had to be raised on opening day 1.642

February 28,1977 Tape 599 AH-3 MR. HICIOf..AN: or the first sitting thereafter. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, as I said and obviously the minister has not heard. MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. member speaking on the Point of Order now? MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I am , Mr. Speaker, as I have said twice and now for the third time, particularly for the benefit of the Minister of ~ustice, I have raised two points of privilege if that is not in order I am prepared to deal with one at a time.

I raise one , a matter of personal privilege, I stated this in my opening statement which I quote to you word for word" I rise on two matters of privilege, one a matter of personal privilege the other a matter affecting the privileges of the House. My references to the Premier's statement, or my statement in response to the Premier's on opening day,is , ~ 1643

February 28, 1977 Tape No. 600 NM- 1 MR. SIMMONS: the_ mat~er affecting the privilege of the House. I have said a few moments ago that as a result of discussions I have had as late as Friday afternoon, Friday evening in checking out the allegation of the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) it came to my attention that the matter I had entered into debate with on opening day was one that could be substantiated by other people and they did it for me as late as Friday night and it is that point that I am raising in reference to the second matter of privilege. Now if it is Mr.

Speaker's wish that I deal with one at a time, if that would be more understandable to the Minister of Justice,if he could follow us a little better, I could do it that way. MR. HICKMAN: I can hear you. I can follow you. I know a breach of the rule when I hear it. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order. There is no doubt that the remarks have to be strictly relevant to the point. I do ~think that all hon. members would be in a better position to ~ judge the bon. member's performance of that obligation i~ in fact, ~e did take one at a time ) MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I shall take first the matter of personal privilege. I have said most of the information so I shall go over it very briefly. One)that the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) had alleged on Friday that I had called the Premier a liar on opening -day. This is blataiJtly untrue. It has no foundation, in verbatim report for February 2nd. What I did do was say that the Premier had told a direct lie. I believe, Mr. Speaker, in view MR. MURPHY: You did not care if he only - MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR:-woon"ROW-=--~ You are wasting the time of the House. 1.644

February 28, 1977 Tape No. 600 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, th~ member !or Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) began wasting the time of the House by making a statement that had no foundation in fact. And therefore, Mr. Speaker, for that reason and because the rules of the House require that a point of privilege be accompanied by an appropriate motion, I would move that the member_for Bay of Islands be instructed to withdraw without qualification his false statement in reference to me, made on Friday, February 25, that I had called the Premier a liar on Feburary 2. I so move. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.

HICKMAN: In response I take Nhat Your Honour has to decide first is whether or not the hon. gentleman has made a prima facie case - MR. SIMMONS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. NM- 2 MR.. S rnMONS : I can appreciate the minister is wanting to be a speaker er something, Mr. Speaker. MR. HICKMAN: Make the point of order. MR. MORGAN: Make the point of order. MR. SntMONS: But the fact is, Mr. Speaker, that·; the rules provide that Mr. Speaker shall determine whether a case has been established -- - - - -- SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. WHITE: Do not let him throw you off. MR.

HICKMAN: Go ahead now. MR. MURPHY: Say it. Come on. MR. HICKMAN: Come on. Come on now. Come on. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, in the interest of expediting I woul d wait for Mr. Speaker's ruling on whether I have established a case and then I would like to debate the motion. As hon. members are aware the procedure with respect ---=-~ ....... - 1645

February 28, 1977 Tape No. 600 NM- 3 MR.

SPEAKER: to a point of privilege, a substantive point of privilege is outlined in May, page 346, and I sha~l. read from it, "As a motion taken at the time for matters of privilege is thereb~- ~i~en precedence over the prearranged programme of public business, the Speaker requires to be satisfied both that priv~leg~ appears to be sufficiently involved to justify him in giving such a precedence or as it is sometimes put, that there is a prima facie case that a breach of privilege has been committed and also that the matter is being raised at the earlies~ opportunity." It goes on on page 347 to state, "It has often been laid down that the Speaker's function in ruling on a claim of breach of privilege is limited to deciding the formal questions of prima facie case and whether it has been raised at the earliest opportunity." So that is what the Chair has to deci~e and depending on that decision there is or is not the substantive question of privilege before the House.

Since the matter is somewhat complex and since it will require me to refer to the actual words said and to consult the verbatim transcripts of those days I would reserve opinion on it. Certai~ly _the ~on. member has not slept on his rights because of that and I will give the decision ~ later because,as I say,IAhave to refer to the verbatim transtript of certain remarks. And indeed I would like to get _the verbatim transcript of the hon. member's remarks , the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d 'Espoir today, in putting forward his arguments ­ so that I have them all before me • ....__ ___ _ - ----- 1646

February 28, 1977 Tape no. _@.!__ _ Page 1 - mw ~· SIMMONS: On a point of order ,Mr. Speaker. I understand ~rom what Mr. Speaker has just said that it is his intention to hold the decision in abeyance and proceed with the regular business of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Well, I certainly am not in a position to give a decision right now. MR.. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, Standing Order (15) provides that whenever any matter of privilege arises, it shall be taken ~ into consideration .immediately. Now, Mr. Speaker, my point of order.

I would submit that the rule does not provide for any intervening period unless the House recesses for Mr. Speaker to do his research. But that rule is very specific that the matter ·--- I have raised must be considered . immediately, not at some future time. MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: - ---- Mr. Speaker, on that point of order, ,._ . The hon. minister. ~n response thereto. The hon. gentleman does not really mean that I am sure. The rule is so clear that it shall be taken into consideration immediately, not dea~ t with immedia~e~y. This is certainly a totally different situation.

Consideration means giving the Chair the right to do what Your Honour has precisely . ruled he intends to do; namely, take it into consideration immediately and deal with it at the earliest possible moment, and at the 'same time indicate to this House, as Your Honour has done, that the hon. gentleman has not slept on his alleged rights. MR..

SPEAKER: Yes, on that point of order, Standing Order (15), "Whenever any matter of privilege arises, it shall be taken into consideration immediately." I think that can only have two specific applications, number one, when the hon. member gets up on a point of privilege to establish or to endeavour to establish that there is --a prima fac~~ - ~ase, and if he has raised it at the earliest opportunity, -----------that he should be. heard immediately.

And I think also when a decision is made, whether there is in fact a breach of privilege, and if it is ~-affirmativelt there is a motion before the 11ous-e, lien- t hat takes precedence •. ' 1.647

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 601 Page 2 - mw Mr. Speaker. However, that is all that it means. The first aspect of it has been _C9'!!J.p1ied with-in hearing the hon. gentleman from Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. (Mr~ Simmons). The second aspect cannot be complied with until there has been a decision on whether the pr ~, . and the raising at the earliest possible opportunity, until those two matters have been decided. So there is no way of taking 1t i~ration - until~ a decision has been ma~e on that. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ~se-on a matter affecting the privileges of the House.

On Wednesday, February 2 the Premier, during his remarks, following the Speech from the Throne -said - and I quote from page fifty-three of the verbatim report for that date - "One time if a development association spoke up ---­against the government that would be the end of the funding." -He subsequentlyLon page sixty of the verbatim report, is recorded --·- as having said a statement of the same essence. "One time if they were criticized, as I said, they would be cut off." Mr.

Speaker, at that time my gut reaction to it based on some knowledge I had with the Green Bay DeveJopment Association and the Newfoundland and --Labrador Rural D~ve!o~ent Council was that the Premier was not I have since had an opportunity, as late as Friday night -past MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR.. SPEAKER: Point of order. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is rising on a ~uestiou of privilege of the whole Bouse or breach of privilege of Whole House that allegedly occurred on February 2, nearly one month ago.

And if there is one very fundamental rule, and that is on any matte_s involving privilege~e it privilege of an hon. member or privilege of the House, the hon. gentleman must bring it to the the attention of the House and raise the question at the earliest opportunity. I waited to hear the first few opening sentences of the - hon._gentleman's remarks, and when he indicated to us, "That his gut feeling on that day was that it was not accurate, ~· _surely _ it ill-behooves- him to come along 1648

February 28~ 1977 Tape no. 601 Page 3- mw Mr. Hickman. thirty days later and say now - as be must - this is the earliest opportunity upon which I can raise it, because I am doing some research. That, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, does not conform to the rules of the Bouse. MR. SPFAKER: The bon. member. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. I do not __\know ~hat the minister's intentions are, whether he wants to chew up the afternoon. I want to raise this very quickly and get on with the business of the afternoon. And, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! r 1649

February 28, 1977 Tape 602 PK - 1 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, - AN RON. MEMBER: Sit down, boy! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I had, as I indicaeed a gut feeling on this .A gut feeling is not enough at times, and I wanted to do some extra research on the matter. I did so_, and as late as Friday night, Mr. Speaker, the information came to me, that there are two people presently employed in the Department of Rural ~evelopment, very senior people, who will and have substantiated the essence of what I said on opening day. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Unless any other hon. gentleman wishes to speak to the point of order raised by the Minister of Justice then I will make ~ a decision on the point of order. The point of order was that the hon. member for Burgee-Bay d~Espoir was not bringing up the matter at his earliest opportunity. Any hon. member wish to submit argument with respect to that point of order?

There being none, and understanding that the hon. member's comments, allegation of breach of privilege related to what was said or transpired on February 2, bearing in mind the lapse of time in the interim,I will rule that the point of order is well-founded and that the hon. gentleman is not bringing the matter up at the earliest opportunity. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 000 AN HON. MEMBER: He is -writilig ~he rule .s for ~ 1 f. MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order. MR.

MURPHY: What do vou l!lean. writin~ t:hP r,l ..... ? ~ HICKMAN: The ruling of Your Honour has been challenged h~. member from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). by the SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I did not hear what the hon. gentleman said, so I will ask him to repeat it. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. Mr. Speaker, - 1650

February 28, 1977 Tape 602 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons : I said nothing for the hearing of - AN HON. MEMBER: You did. MR. SIMMONS: -Mr. Speaker I said something for the hearing of the Minister of Justice. AN HON. MEMBER: You did not. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: And I said you are writing the rules for yourselves. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No you did not. II MR. MORGAN: , ·. He is breaking the rules'; you said. · _ . ___ _ D HON. MEMBER: He did not. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I said, and the transcript I am sure will show, yuu are writing the rules for yourselves, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

SIMMONS: It is another one, Mr. Speaker, if I may speak to my point of privilege, it is another one of the gut reactions I have when I see that for a number of years, last year and the' year before when an~~ber member was trying to raise points of privilege the member from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) we were not allowed to interrupt on points of order. Now the rules have 'been changed, and I object. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ~h! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

On that matter I cannot allow the hon~ gentleman to infer directly or indirectly that the Chair is ~ acting partially, and as I said before that what my obligation is, is to maintain the authority of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: There is a prescribed manner or there are a couple if . the hon. gentleman wishes to take exception with the Chair's ruling. I cannot however allow the last remark to go without withdrawal. The hon. member from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir i~ asked to withdraw the last remark which I consider a reflection on the Chair and on the House.

The hon. member from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, it is not intended to be a reflection on Mr. Speaker at all. 1.651.

February 28, 1977 Tape 602 PK - 3 SOME BON. MEMBERS : Withdraw it! Withdraw it! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. SOME RON~ MEMBERS: Withdraw it! Withdraw it.! MR. SIMMONS: I believe, Mr. Speaker, I am allowed a word of ~~~explanation, if Mr. Speaker misinterpreted what I said. I submit, --~r. Speaker, that what I have said has been misinterpreted by Mr. Speaker, and I would like to say that I had no intention of casting any reflection at all on Mr. Speaker.

If I may be allowed a sentence to put in context what I was saying. last year we were attempting to interrupt points of privilege with points of order the Minister of Justice sat silent, now all of a sudden he is the champion of the point of order. I withdraw any implication that Mr. Speaker had made a wrong ruling or an~~hil!g_ ~f that nature, I did not mean it. I do not intend it. I withdraw itif ~that implication was left. MR. SPEAKER: I think that certainly covers the situation in which . I I intervened. That came up during the course of a point of ord·er being made by the Minister of Justice.

If the hon. gentleman would state it again, please. MR. Hl:CKMAN: . The · point of order, Mr. Speaker, that I made was that the comment by the hon. gentleman from Burgee-Bay d 'Espoir ·(Mr. Simmons) who says "That it was intended for the House and not for the ~air, or for the hon. Minister of Justice, and not for the Chair." I suggest to Your Honour that no hon. gentleman within the confines of this House has the right to make comments or statements for anyone other than for the House and/or the Chair.

And most assuredly the statment made by the bon. gentleman from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir following Your Honour's ruling against him did, in my opinion, cast very serious reflection on the Chair, and it is my opinion, that as members of this Hom:u:• we have an obligation to protect the Chair, and it is in that light that I rise on that point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! r 1652

February 28, 1977 Tape 603 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgee-Bay _d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, to the point of orde~ if it is that, I have already stated without any _q_ul!l:~ficat=f:~~ that I withdrew any implication that the Chair had made an unfair ruling. I have said that very clearly. The record will show that. :!-1y aspersions, !-fr. Speaker, were not either indirect or against the ChairJ they were direct and they were aimed at the Minister of Justice. MF_.

SP.EAKE'F_: I think the hon. gentleman has clarified his remarks with respect to ~y _ applic~tion they may have been assumed to have had towards the Chair or towards the House. That matter should now be regarded as disposed of. On behalf of bon. members I would like to welcome to the gallery today Mr. Gordon Bradley and Mr. Fred Gosling. Mr. Bradley is the mayor, the second gentleman, the deputy mayor of Bonavista and I know that all bon. gentlemen to my right and to my left "t-rill join me in welcoming these gentlemen to the House of Assembly. SmAE RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MF_. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 431 residents over the age of eighteen years of age in the ~community of Isle aux Morts and the electoral district of LaPoile . Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of the House I will just read the prayer of the petition. I might say, Sir, at the outset that the petition was circulated by a newly formed group in the community of Isle aux Morts called the Committee for Community Betterment.

It is a Committee -that-was set up recently to try to bring about some badly needed -- :ilnprovements in the community. And they have become a legal entity, they have become an incorporated body, and their first project is to try and have something done about the fish processing facilities in Isle aux Morts. The Committee is representative of· various aspects of life in the community, union, the Locai Improvments - District educationalists and so on. 1653

February 28, 1977 Tape 603 IB-2 MR. NEARY: Now here · is the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, "Whereas Nelpack Fisheries Limited, Isle aux ~·Iorts, a subsidiary of B.C. Packers, a Weston owned company recent!~ transferred ownership to another Weston owned company, Connors Brothers Limited;and

whereas immediately following the takeover by qp_n~or~_ Brothers twelve permanent employees were laid· ~-ff; and wher eas there has been no statement of policy by either government or company as to what this transfer of ownership within the multi-national Weston Corporation will mean in terms of employment or _E!Jtt~t1<!!!ig--i~e work period at Isle aux Morts ~eyond the ten or twelve ' week herring se~son; in which- t~e -plan~ presently operates; and

whereas the previous company, the Nelpack Fisheries Limited had been given DREE grants · to install equipment, ice making machines and . refrigeration on the assumption that many permanent jobs would be created on a year~round basis; and

whereas the history of th~s plant in Isle aux Morts has been one of exploitaeion of' one of our basic natural resources, the herring fishery, to the extent of practically depleting the herring stocks of£ ~?rco astline; therefore

be it resolved that we -the ~ -undersigned residents · «!_ve~ the age of eighteen years in the community of Isle aux Morts,in the -electoral district of LaPoile, request the appropriate department of government to bring to bear whatever pressure possible to compel! Connors Brothers to process all produce of the sea at their fish plant in ourcommuD.iey thus making . --- ---it a year-round operation employing workers for longer · perJ~~~ throughout _ the year." Now, Mr.

Speaker,as the petition indicates at the present time this modern, up-to-date fish plant in Isle aux Morts only operates during the herring season, about twelve or fourteen weeks out of the year. As a result of this, Mr. Speaker, the whole community is completely demoralized. It is the second largest community in the district of t8Po-i1e:-~ It is not a.- community, Sir, where I got the most support in the last provincial election. As a matter of ,. ~ . . .~ .. ~ community of Isle aux Morts that through the CBC comput~ o:at: and had Jj--:-~ ~:...~: ... lot ~- ,.; -.. • ~~t?_onent re-elected.

I think they voted about ninety ~ ~er ' cent~. against me ., 1.654 . ..

February 28,- 1977 Tape 603 IB-3 MP. NEARY: in the commtmity of Isle aux Morts. But nevertheless, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEi\.KER: Order~ please! I will ask the hen. gentleman now to get to the material allegation of the petition. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am coming to that. I am just merely pointing this out~ Sir, to show the Bouse that there is no discrimination as far as I am concerned. I think the people of Isle aux Morts have a very vali~_case. On either side of the community of -· -- -------- 1655

Februarv 28, 1977 Tape no. 604 Page 1 - mw Mr. Neary. Isle aux MOrts-in Port aux . Basques you have a fish plant that is operating on a year-round basis. In Fox Roost - Margaree -. . ·- - you have Gabe Billard's fish plant that operates on a year-round basis. And down in Burnt Islands you have a fish plant operating on a year-round basis. And down in Rose Blanche, T. J. Hardy's fish. plant operating on a seasonal __ basis, and I hope that that will be rectified in the near future.

They do have a very strong argument, Sir, because at the present time I would say most of the unemployed in that community are forced to leave, to go up to the Great Lakes, to look for employment. There are a lot of young people, there is a very young population in the community of Isle aux Morts, - ·- -·- - .:· - - and there is no employment there other than in the fish plant. There are a few people who commute back and forth to work to CN in Port aux Basques.

And, Sir, in this day and age now when we have the 200 mile limit, when we are talking about increasing our capability of catching the fi~h, and hav~ng ~ it processed in our own fish plants here on the Island of Newfoundland, I would submit to the House, Sir, that there should not be a fish plant on this Island at the present time or in the foreseeable future that is only operating on a seasonal basis. If we are going to catch the fish, Sir, and process it here in Newfoundland then every fish plant should not only be operating one shift,' they should be operating in three shifts at maximum capacity.

The fish is going to be there. Apparently this year, Sir, in my district - and I was down on the weekend, and I just got back. As a matter of fact I went down and met with the committee in Isle aux ~orts wh~~~--- presented me with the petition, and I was in Burnt Islands and in Margaree. And I can tell the House, Sir, that they are having the best fishing season that they have had, I would say, on the Southwest corner of this Province, in twenty-five years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! - 4-- 1656

February 28. 1977 Tape no. 604 Page 2 - mw Mr. NEARY: ? They· have not seen the likes of the --fish, ~ir .!...!__would_ say in twenty.~ _ five years. And the three mid-water trawlers that my friend has experimenting on the Southwest corner of the Province - one went out yesterday evening, left Port aux Basques yesterday evening when I was there, went out and came in today with 100,000 pounds of fish. It is unbelievable, Sir. It is abso~utely fantastic the amount of fish that they are getting on the Southwest corner of this Province.

And here you have a fish plant right in the middle of this,owned by a multi-national company over on the mainland,closed down. And they have in that plant, as the ministers knows, because the minister and I went through the plant, the have stored in that plant the cutting tables and so forth, Sir, for processing ground fish, and that could ~e very ea~iir_ put in place. And I know the minister is most sympathetic.over this matter, because we have talked about it a number of times, and the minister came to Isle aux Mort~ ~th - me.

So, Sir, I would like to support the petition and have it laid upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. I hope, Sir, that the petition will get the support of members on either side of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, we can certainly support this petition . from 431 residents of Isle - au% ~rts as presented by the Community --~ - ~-..... ~--····· Bette~e~t-~ro~~ there.

We are certainly alarmed by the fact thRt twelve employees have been laid off particularly in view of the fact that we are talking about a change of companies,for whatever reason, and public money is involved, vis-a-vis, the DREE grants and so on. I have in the past few weeks brought to the attention of the Minister of Manpower certain employee exchange and layoff in another firm. He was very Quick I might say to take some action in this regard, and I certainly compliment him on that.

And I would hope that he will take a look at this situation as to why the twelve employees of some standing in the community, and in the plant concerned, were laid off. 1657

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 604 Page 3 - mw MR. NOLAN: Is this some corporate move that be~~s looking into? And if so, 1 would certainly suggest to the Minister of Manpower that he take a look at this petition and possibly at the managment and so on to see what happened to the twelve employees and if anything can be done in this regard? So we certainly support the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition as so ably presented by my hon. friend from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), and I support it primarily because whatever happens in Port aux Basques has almost a direct bearing on the Bay of Islands district. In fact many of our men go out to Port aux Basques : to take

part in the fishery, going on 1658

February 28, 1977 Tape No. 605 NM- 1 MR. WOODROW: draggers or whatever the case may be. And seeing that the member was in LaPoile and was given the petition certainly it makes me feel that the people must be very, very serious about it. And the_fa~t that in the plant he speaks about p~9ple who are employed anywhere from ten to twelve weeks, this indeed is pathetic and I hope with the 200 mile limit that this plant, which he is ~e~king about, will be opened twelve months of, the year if possible.

And knowing how interested our present Minister of Fisheries is in the fisheries all over the Province~ how harrl he has been working at it, especially over the past year, that is another reason why I give my full support to this petition. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I feel a special obligation to support this petition. I ac~ompanied the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) this week on a flight back to my district, I think he was getting down to his own district and during the trip I had a chance to learn first hand of his concern for the plight of the fish plant worker~ in Is~e aux MOrts and for_~hat_matter his concern all the fish plant· :workers in the Province. And so I want to heartily support--the-,petition presented on behalf of 431 people from Isle ~ux_Morts. It is significant, Mr. Speaker, that the bon. member in presenting the petition pointed out that this fish plant is owned by a multi-lateral company, a very large - AN RON. MEMBER: Multi-national. MR.

FLIGHT: Multi-national. It would be very interesting to £in4 out-how many other fish plants that that company owns that are operating on a ten to twelve week basis, besides the Isle aux Morts plant. 1659

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 605 NM- 2 MR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Speaker, I suppose that the fish that . _ h~~ b~en _ taken over the years, over the centuries, ins:Lde of what is now our 200 mile · limit would have kept what fish plants- if that fish was processed in this Province it would have kept what fish plants -ar_e--in Newfoundland, and any fish ----- - - plants that are possible to build in _ a~y-~o~tY _ in Newfoundland ' going.

And I -~ul!L.su~"Qect, Sir, that if all the fish that will be taken within the 200 mile limit were processed in Newfoundland in the future, that every fish plant, including the Isle aux Morts one, would not only, as the member says' work ' year-round but will probably work two shifts year-round. And ~. Speak~r_~ J:_e_~ me __ s~ty, I am sure that all hon. members in the House are probably, if not questioning my right are certainly questioning my knowledge of the fishery, . re~resenting the most central of central districts.

But the fact is, s~~ •. t~~~- I would like to tell the House that I have my roots in the fisheries. I grew up in Notre Dame Bay. My father was a fisherman and I feel very close and I feel I understand ~-.. •I' some of the problems of the fisheries. And I think the challenge facing the Minister of Fisheries is to see that the fish - we have the 200 mile limit and the word is that there will be plenty of fish~~--· challenge is to see that those fish are processed -in-- 'N~;£0Uilciland. That is the challenge.

The fish may be the'l'e. ' There is where_the employment for Newfoundlanders · will be, not taking the fish and· shipping it into Boston, but processed in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, I heartily support the petition which was so ably presented by the member from LaPoile. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear ! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I want to add my support to that petition as well, because we have, aware of :this, we have had meetings with the~odllor ' group suggesting 1.660

February 28, 1977 Tap~ 605 NM- 3 Mr. W. Carter: that every possible step will be taken by them to ensure that the plant does operate at a muCh greater capacity than what it is presently operating. The plant, Mr. Speaker, is a privately owned operation, the Weston Company is a privately owned company, the subsidary . C~~r - irothers - ~; I should add, the largest- canning factory in ·--- ·-· · - - - - -~·--·· ------'- Eastern Canada )is a privately owned company as well. But be that as. it may, the company has to apply to the Newfoundland Government for a licence to operate.

Arid I hold the view, and I have far quite sometime,that the issuance of such a licence carries with it some responsibility .. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: Any company in Newfoundland that applies for and receives a licence from the Province to operate a fish processing operation, and t~ harvest that resource,carries with it a great deal of responsibility.. And I can tell the· Rouse now, Mr. Speaker, that every effort will be made by the Bepartment of.

Fisheries and by this government to ensure that the companies- who get these licences are not permitted to use them just for their own personal gain, and at the whims ...

February 28, 1977 Tape 606 IB-1 MR. W. CARTER: - ~t. ~~~ir ~- b ~ lance sheets and chartered accountants, but that they will be operating these plants that are licensed for the benefit of the community and the Province. That is something we are doing. I repeat, we did initiate a meeting with ·connor Brothers. We have asked them to tell us what their plans are to ensure that every possible step is taken by that company to ensure that they do increase their productivity there and maybe diversify where they will be employing many more people on a longer period of time. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Y.r. Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented by the member for LaPoile (~r. Neary). His district and mine are not only adjacent to each other but they are also very dependent on the inshore fishery. We have heard a lot in recent weeks and months about the trawler fishery and as important as it is we should not allow it to overshadow the stability which the inshore fishery can bring to the Southwest Coast and is bringing to the Southwest Coast.

As the member has indicated, the inshore fishermen are having their best year in a long, long time. The fish are there and the willingness is there to catch it and they are catching lots of it. ·Indeed in a number of cases the inshore catch is enough to keep the fish plant going a couple of days a week. A case in point is the Gaultois plant which is not in my district anymore but in that of my colleague for - -Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor).

But the inshore fishery,despite th~ s~iinesB of the boat when compared to the large stern and side trawlers,nevertheless the inshore fishery has a substantial input into the raw material of the fish plants along the Southwest Coast. How much better ·would it be for the petitioners at Isle aux Morts) not on~y the 431 who have signed but the others, if that plant there could operate not only as a herring processing facility but on a year-round basis. As we have said the fish are there, Mr. Speaker, the equipment is there thanks to a DREE grant.

The equipment is there~ j...t __ -___ _ just needs to be installed as the member has indicated. Al-i · that is 1662

February 28, 1977 Tape 606 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: needed, Mr. Speaker, is a couple of trawlers. A lot could be said on that subject if we were in a full- debate but all that needs to be said now, ¥.r. Speaker, is that the people of Isle aux M.orts,like the people of Burgeri and Ramea in my own district and the people of other communities where there are fish plants on the Southwest Coast 1 are being deprived of a full income, a full, a good weekly take-home pay because of the shortage of catch capability, because there are not the trawlers available, there is not the trawler programme available, ~~r.

Speaker, to give to Isle aux Morts and those other communities the catch capability which would make working in those plants a worth-while and a full-time employment opportunity. I am very pleased, ~r. Speaker, to give my full support to the petition. SOME HON • ME¥EERS : Hear, hear: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. ~-~R. LUNDRIGA..~: Mr. Speaker, I have a batch of questions here that I can table, questions that have been asked. I guess I do not want to waste the time of the House in elaborating on the contents of the questions.

Some are relating to the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan), everything from the price of char to the fish caught in suCh-and-such a place, to the losses sustained in the plants in this community and that community, a lot of good, useful information. Another question, Mr. Speaker, which - MR. HICKMAN: . 1i7hat number are you on? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Oh, I am sorry. The question, Mr. Speaker, is number by the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) dated February 8. _,---:- I have another series of questions - Mr. Speaker, there is quite a series of questions here.

I believe the questions might go beyond number 32 I believe. Am I right on this~ Ther~ are six or seven questions. But they are the one question, I guess the one. Is that · how it goes? AN HON. MEMBER: What question number is that? MR. LUNDP..IGAN: Number 32. ------ - 1sc;a (

February 28, 1977 Tape 607 PK - 1 Mr. Lundrigan: No 28, Mr. Speaker, by the member from Eagle River as well.,with ---a considerable amount of information ~egarding the travelling activities of Mr. Michael Martin who was retained by the department this year to do some investigative work regarding the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation,- _ _indic~ting~bas~cally1 the information regarding the transportation costs~ And this will be laid upon the table. That is Question No. 28, the member from Eagle River. Question No. 127 by the member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) regarding - -resettlement.

How many families were resettled in the calendar year 1976? The member will be pleased to know,of course,that the resettle­ ment programme terminated - in terms · of any applications being approved during that calendar year;_.At __ the end of the calendar year the information here indicates the number of families moved, and the cost of the relocatin~ of these families for that particular year. --Questions,, Mr. Speaker, regarding trips made by the minister ------~- . -- outside of St. John's,by the member from Lewisporte (Mr. White),charged up to Industrial Development.

He might want to raise Rural Development too at a later date? MR. WHITE: I will ask another one tomorrow. MR.. LUNDRIGAN : All right, because there is a whole slew of little trips here and there in Rural Development. I only gave him the big expensive one here for the making of a little bit more news. That is Question No. 46. -Answer to Question No--85, the member from LaPoile, regarding contracts oral or written entered into by Viking Helicopters for the Minister of Industrial Development. And the answer is given there, Mr.

Speaker, which is not going to communicate a great deal of information because I am not aware of any contract. Another question, Mr. Speaker, about the tugboats at Marystown, Question No. 94 raised by the member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) February "-- 10, asking for tabling of documentation regarding Marystown contracts, and number two, asking for federal and provincial subsidies? The 1664 -

February 28, 1977 Tape 607 PK - 2 Mr. Lund rig an: answer to number one will not be provided, I do not have any plans to table the contract. Documentation by Marystown Shipyards on the Norwegian Company, on the Export Development Corporation, on the Bank of Montreal. But I do indicate here, Mr. Speaker, that the federal subsidy of roughly $3 million that was provided under the SlAP, the Department of Industry Subsidy Programme of ·13 per cent.For ships in excess of 100 tons, there is no provincial subsidy involved. Mr.

Speaker, again for the member from LaPoile, Question No. 87 regarding Viking Helicopters to the Minister of Rural Development. And the answer is similar or the same as it was before there are no such contracts to my knowledge. The member from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe), Question No. 19, Mr. Speaker. Information regarding a · resource loan bank- 1972 Throne Speech.

I guess I could go into some detail on that and maybe make some elaborate statements, but there was no responsibility that I assume as minister for such a bank and consequently no initiatives have been taken by me as the Minister of Rura~ Development. Question No. 6, Mr. Speaker, asked by the member from Bellevue (Mr. Callan), regarding information as it pertains t,o loans, grants, and community projects in the Department of Rural Development. These are similar questions that· were raised last year regarding rural development.

The question was basically the grants and/or loans which were made to individuals or groups in the calendar year 1976- ., Now what I have done here, Mr. Speaker, is give the loans up-to-date for the calendar year, I cannot give them for the fiscal year because it is not over yet. The incentive grants for small industries, I would like to quote these figures, were seventy-two incentive-grant_:; for $714,000; the rural development loans) up until·, the calendar year 1976)were 114 loans for $1,489,000; conununity ptojects, Mr.

Speaker, these are projects that are funded under a particular programme in the department similar to the fish farm r. 1665 (

February 28, 1977 Tape 607 PK- 3 Mr. Lundrigan: as a community project, I believe that was a pilot project, it is just a different sta,ge of the same thing. What is- the cODIIIltinity project? Greenspo~d smoke house, I guess. There were thirty­ seven such projects for $473,000. The projects are broken d~wn as into the regions; Western, Central, Eastern, and so are the loans and so are the incentive grants. So I would like to make that information available. 1666

February 28,1977 Tape 608 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. CARTER: I want to table, Sir, answers to questions placed on ~ the Order P~per~ One question N~from the hon. member for Trinity-Bay De Verde having to do with the programme of assistance to help inshore fishermen. Another question, No. 51 asked by the bon. member for Fogo, having to do with the fisheries loan board! - . Question No. 83 . pli!!_C:~d on the Order _Paper by the bon. member for LaPoile concerning the Viking Helicopters.,_What contracts have been entered into, awarded to Viking Helicopters.? The answer,, Mr.

Speaker, is,of course>none. And another one, question No. 59)placed on the Order Paper by the member from Trinity-Bay De Verde, asking what the government has done with respect to its commitment in the Throne Speech made in 1972 to embark immediately upon the programme to encourage the establishment, additi~nal a·dvance, re·· processing fish facilities in the provincer Mr. Speaker , the question is rather long and I do not think I shall want to wast .e the time of the House to read it, but it is contained in the answer. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Ron. }f..inister of Social S:ervices. MR.

BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I have a reply to a question asked by the ~bon. I to the question. First of all he asked if ·- Leader of the_Qpposition .on FTiday, I believe •. There are two parts I would undertake to report to the Rouse on the progress of a project being carried out .in Hampdenjand secondly if it were true that the people who are incapacitated for medical reasons, are being forced to work. First of all, I think I should tell the House a little bit about the project.

It entails building 1.6 miles of access road which will be constructed along the shore and a fur~her three miles of roa&·blazed through timber stands . • This will make approximately six million board feet of lumber and over two hundred thousand cords of pulpwood accessible to the loggers of Hampden and surrounding area. 1667

February 28~1977 Tape 608 AH-2 MR. BRETT: The people in that area have been looking for this project for some time, so we feel it is a very, very viable project. It appears now that some .single men from the community, who are not, and I repeat, not recipients of Social Assistance,are attempting to stop the project because they are not being employed. I also understand that they are being encouraged by an individual or some individual8. apparently for partisan reasons from what I can find out.

Now Hampden needed this project probably more than any community on the West Coast because :.= w~e? ·we ~t_arted this - programme there were 99 families in receipt of short-term assistance in that area, so obviously tha area was picked, not for political reasons as you can see, but because they were so many people there in receipt of assistance.

Now all I can tell the House is that if these particular gentlemen contintte to interfere we may not have any alternative but to consider taking the project out of it all together and then I would assume that the peo;le who are kicking up a fuss over there will have to be responsible for tke consequences. There are twentY-four married men with families hired on the job -right now, there are another six families with children who are available, who I hope will be hired.

As for the second part of the question, people being forced to work, this is iudicrous ,stupid, silly , to ask such a question. -.To think that professional,educated men -: wo\iid --go out there and. foTce people who are medically incapicated to go to.work~ well it is just stupid, it is stupid to ask the question ana of course the answer is no • MR. SPEAKER: . Order, order,please! I must draw to the .. hon. ·gentlemen's , attention that rules with respect to answering . ._ _;J~r-------- questions are similar to those answe--r±n-g-questing in t hat y preclude debateF or are supposed to.

Are there any further answers to questions? · The hon. : Ministe:i of Transportation. en a nUmber of occasions the hon. gentleman 1668

February 28,1977 Tape 608 AH-3 MR. MORGAN: frcnn Port au Port ,.who I understand is the official spokesman on transportation matters from the opposition,has asked questiQ!lS with re~ard to,~ that is oral-qUestions -, with regards. to the Auditor ; · - · ·--- .. ·- ·- - · --· --· ·- - - - - . --- -·- ·- · -- --~· - - -- - - - .. ·-- General's Rep~rt _in connection wi.th the collection of abandoned and derelict vehicles around the province and the payment made to the c~any concerned.

When this idea was conceived by government, the funds were allocated in the Department of Transportation and Communications. : __ .Howevej:_ ~hortlv- after that, the supervision and c~tract was signed betweem the company concerned and the Departl!lent of Environment and Provincial Affairs.,· 1669

February 28,1977 Tape 609 Page 1 .omw MR. MORGAN: This matter is being discussed with my colleague, the hon Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment, and I can assure the hon. gentleman for Port au Port(Mr.Hodder),indeed this Rouse of Assembly, that all information pertaining to this matter will be made available to the House of Assembly. We have nothing to hide. MR.NEARY: If you are hauling the cars what role does the Minister~s Department play? MR. MORGAN: You did not a~e question, · he did. - - ' u MR. SPEAKER~, The bon. Minister· of Justice. ~ MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to Question No. 159 on the ---,\( Order Paper of today's date, asked ~]~. Neary) I table herewith. by t~e bon. member for LaPoile MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Provincial Affairs. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, Question No. 118, Order Paper, February 15 asked by the MHA for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) with -reference to~ - To ask the Honourable the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment to lay - - - - - - ·- upOD: the_~~b-~e. of the House the following information: ~nta.t are the mo~thly totals paid to E.P :A. or reimbursed·to workers to and from Labrador?riuce ? I have not the faintest idea.

I do not knqw what department. It used to be Labrador Affairs that looked after that. I do not know who it is now. The Minister of Transportation - would the bon. member kindly redirect that question? Question No. 103: - To ask the Honourable the Minister .... ' of Consumer Affairs and Environment to lay upon the Table of ~he House the following information: What steps have been taken to have the World War II gun emplacement on Bell Island turned into a provincial historic site? 'I have referred this to the Department of Defence. The bon.

Mini$ter of Tourism is in charge, and the question may be redirected to him~ With reference to Question No. 41 asked by the - . bon. member for Lewisporte: - To ask the Honourable the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment to lay upon the Table of the House the following information: The number of out of: St. John's trips taken in the past fiscal year, which were paid for by the provincial Government,

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 609 Page 2 - mw Mr. Murphy. the destination of each, mode of transportation used, and cost of eacn trip taken? I am tabling that because I was Minister of Social Services so I table this. This fiscal year is not over yet so that is up to end of March, 1976. So I will table that answer. These are for the information of the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), too. It is a very substantial answer. MR. SPEAKER: Any further answers to questions? ORAL QUESTIONS : MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Finance. ' Perhaps he would be good enough to bring us up to date, the House, ---- on the. cu~rent -situation insofar as the strike is concerned in the Waterford Hospital~ When we adjourned on Friday it was with the expectation that we may be called together during the weekend, and it ~s for this reason that we left it wide open to meet on the weekend. Perhaps the minister would now bring us up to date on what is the situation as of this moment, assuming that he has some recent word from his officials and so on? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: No, Mr.

Speaker, I have no further information. As the House is aware the officials of Treasury Board and the Hospital Board an~ the De~artment ~f Heal~h are sitting down this afternoon. They were scheduled to start at 2:00 P.M. with the NAPE unit at Waterford in an attempt to iron out the differences that are in there. I have ~d no information from them or communication from them as to what progress, if any, has been made up to now. Hopefully, some has. t cannot honestly say. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Sir, if he would clarify the situation, ~ the controversy that seems to be existing between the minister's department, the member for Mount Pearl (Mr. N. Windsor) and the Mount Pearl Town Council in connection with a grant to the stadium 167i

t February 28, 1977 Tape no. 609 Page 3 - mw Mr. Neary. in Mount Pearl? Would the minister clarify that situation? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. j)JNN. Well, thanks very much. Mr. Speaker, I have been w~ting to clarify this for days, and obviously I cannot listen to every radio station in the mornings as a councillor for Mount Pearl has come on and made several statements. But the fact of the matter is that we have a complete financial statement from the recre~t~on committee and, therefore, do not need one from Mount Pearl. The other part of it ~ 1672

February 28, 1977 Tape 610 PK - 1 Mr. J. Dinn: is that, there are five items outstanding that we want some information from ' the council of Mount Pearl, and cannot seem to get that information. So to the council I would say if they want their budget approved I would appreciate it if they would supply the information as asked for by me in previous correspondence, and it will be all settled then. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. _ MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Would the minister indicate if it is usual, routine procedure to by-pass the council, I understand the council is ,_,.- - . responsible for the Recreation Committee and the stadium, to by-pass ~ tse council and give grants directly to the Recreation Committee { for which the council is responsible, and have to answer to the minister forr Is this usually done or is it unusual? What happened in this case? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. , ~. DINN: Mr. Speaker, there have been no grants made to --/ 'bbe Recreation Comm.itt_~~ in Mount Pearl ,?

All gaants made are made through the council of Mount Pearl. That has been the practice and always will be the practice from the point of view of the Minister of Municpal Affairs and Housing. MR. NEARY: Well a supplementary question then. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR~ NEARY: Why is it then as the minis~er just indicated a few moments ago that the Recreation Committee is answering to the minister and not the Municipal Council in Mount Pearl? Why did the minister adopt that procedure? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, the Recreation Committee obviously does not answe~ to~me, it answers to the Municipal Council. MR. NEARY: But you said,the Financial Report, 'the minister said was coming to him. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I said that I received the Financi'al Report and I am perfectly happy with that F~anc~l Repo.rt. 1673

February 28, 1977 Tape 610 PK- 2 MR. NEARY: Has the Council received it? MR. DINN: I do not know. I have no idea what council did or • did not receive from the Recreation Committee, I would hope they would. MR. NEARY: Well a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: One additional supplementary. MR. NEARY: e Is the minister then aware of any grivance or any d~spute between the Council and the Recreation Committee? Does the Council have the financial report? Are they satisfied with it? Are they satisfied with the fact that public tenders were called in all cases? MR.

DINN: The City Council did not tell me. MR. NEARY: Well the minister is representing the Council here. MR. DOODY: · How many questions to that? MR. NEARY: Well would the minister just tell us what, you know, is the situation regarding the council's relationship- - . MR. MORGAN: Ask the council. MR. NEARY: Go and look after the air space in Newfoundland will you, or for Gander so they will not all lose their jobs out the~e. . --. MR. MORGAN: ______ (~naudible) four questions like you are doing. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Is the hon. gentleman finished his question? MR.

NEARY: Well if it got through, if the minister can ~derstand what I am saying with all the interruptions from the Minister of Transportation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: .As- t understand it, Mr. Speaker, the Council certainly . - . a copy of the Financial Report and statements, they were passed ~\ has on MR=·:........::;S.;:..PEAKER==~: ·to the Clerk of the Council. The hon. member from Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, this question is for the Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment.

As a result of an incident in Central Ne~foundland last Spring, the flooding of the Trans-canada ~ 1674

February 28, 1977 , Tape 610 PK- 3 Mr. Flight: Highway,. _o~!=~- -~i - ~- enquiry, Mr. Speaker, came a fear by very knowledgeable people~There were statements made that because of the high water level in Red Indian Lake there was some fear, and well grounded fear for the ability of Exploits Dam to hold - that the , I people who controlled the dam had no choice but to run that water off because of their fear that the Dam itself might not hold ~ -, -. now my question is, does t:;::h;;::e;,_::m""'i_n_i=-s.::.t:::.e.:..r_h:,:• a::v.:_e~an=· y~b:a:s:.:i::s:_:f:.or ~ -- - ~-- = ---concern in that area?

Is the Department of the Enviornment concerned about the ability of the Exploits to hol~in the event of a high water level in Red Indian Lake7 Because in asking that question I am sure I do not need to - point out that - if there is any fear, if there is a possibility 7 given a fast rise , a high water level, and that Dam were to go, then Badger _is going under water and that is the- basis of the question, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. MR. A. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to be able to answer \~hat off the ~urveys made top, it is a rather complex question.

We have had of the reason for the floods, and there were many factors entered into it, the ice was melting, and this type of thing,_ earlier 'than usual, and there were high floods in the river. But to my knowledge ___ l dq not there _ think is any fear of the Dam breaking or - - ~1~hing · like that, and we had our man fly over, our water expert fly over in a helicopter when the floods were in full height, recently, not -··• r •• - - •- the ~~1.::1..~;- one.. . And I would like really to take notice of the question, possibly, you know, a question like that quite honestly, Mr.

Speaker, is so important, I would like to see it put on paper so that I, you know, it is very difficult for me now to go back after listening· for a minute or so and try to repeat the fears of the member. I would like to see it on paper, bu~ if not I would invite the member to come over and sit down and talk with- our people and let us know the fears , and he can express his fears, and we can have a look at the whole thing, and .if he has got any information that we are not -in po~sessionof ' -we will :-be on~y t oo' h ap~y- to go_" out with him and look at what is happening out :there. r ! 1675

February 28, 1977 'rape no. 611 Page 1 - mw MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: For the record, Mr. Speaker. I want this read into the record of the Rouse that there is no question about my sincerity - · MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman is recognized to ask a supplementary question, and in doing so he may give what information is necessary for the question, but I would not be allowed to permit him to make a statement. MR. FLIGHT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then a supplementary, Sir.

Would the minister undertake to assure the House;-:-&&-sOon as he is in a ~si~Jo~ _tQ _ · - ----- . . have talked with his department's officials- ~ assure the House _a~ --- to exactly what the situation is with the Exploits :. Dam, as to whether or not there is a basis of concern, and to assure the House that _in as f~r __ as his department is concerned, there is no fear , to the towns down river from the Exploits Dam, that that dam could break? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.

MURPHY: I will undertake that, Sir, if the hen. member would Un.dertake to make known to me in writing, and also to my officials, what ·his great concerns are, and any information he has pertaining to the hazard that exists. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Ministe~of Transportation and Cammunication~, and it deals with the freight subs:(dy on fl_ights to islands of the Northeast Coast. I wonder if the minister could tell us when he is going to be in a position to announce the freight s~bsidy, as ! ' understand it is being planned at the moment? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Ur. Speaker, it is a coincidence that the question .i.-;· -~-- asked today, b-ecause it was just today that the subsidization . of the movement of produce, of food . items, to the islands of St. Brendan's, Change Islands and Fogo, and in all possibility Long Island as well, 1.676

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 611 Page 2- mw Mr. Morgan. has been approved through the operations of-; Gander A~~at~o!_l . ~-~-- G_anc:J:er, which we are subsidizing and have been subsidizing since the tirst of January with regards to passenger movement to these same islands. So now as of today we have approved the subsidization of the movement of food items, produce, and that has been made retroactive to February 12 based on the fact that the environmental conditions and ice conditions, ,ln particular, have prevented the - - '-- ferry s~rvices from operating on a regular basis.

So these three islands I mentioned, St. Brendan's Change Islands and Fogo will now ·-- be subsidized ta the amount of seven cents per __ pound. _ The tariff used by the carrier is fourteen cents per pound so we are subsidizing to the tune of seven cents per pound, which will mean that the cost to the customer will be seven cents as well. So we are subsidizing to the tune of fifty per cent of the cost. And in all possibility we will also apply the same subsidy to the community of Long Island as well, which will be a total of four islands included. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell us what goods will be included in that subsidy? Will it be restricted ~to food and clothing or will clothing be included or just foo~? And "- what is going to be the . total . cost to the Province for the year? MR. ·sPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, rather than make an estimate of the cost this year, what I will do is supply the hon. gentleman with the cost over the last co~ple of years with the same subsidy, and I am of the firm impression from the officials in the department that~--=~· .. only produce items, like food items and meats, etc., will be subsidized. I surely hope that they would not be subsidizing cases of beer, etc. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. •, .. · MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. r _______ ,; ---- - -------· -- -- ~ 1.677

February 28, 1977 Mr. Simmons • Tape no. 611 Page 3 - mw I wonder would the minister indicate to the House whether this Province is now officially a partner in the Atlantic Lottery? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: The Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is officially a partner. We are operating under licence from the gove~ent, which is, I think, our legislative authority to do so. We had a bill oefore the House last year which did not go through the House. It slipped off the Order Paper toward the end. If the House so desires we can bring that bill forward again, and re-introduce it and debate it.

But I understand we do have the authority to be a partner of the Atlantic Lottery Corporation though a licence from the Order-4n-Council. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: I wonder would the minister be good enough to ~indicate what the authority is, 1111de:r what legislation the autho r ity is vested? ----MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: Yes, I will have to get that information. I do not have the proper references off the top of my head, but I am sure it will be no difficulty. I will certainly get the information. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER : A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder would the minister indicate who Newfoundland's representatives are? I understand that each province is supposed to have two representatives on the board. I wonder

February 28,1977 Tape 612 AH-1 MR. SIMMONS: is that correct as far as this province is concerned and if so who these representatives are. MR. DOODY: That is no problem, Sir.We have two members on the board . • The Chairman of the board is Mr. Dave Roberts of the Treasury Board, the other member of the board is Mr. Peter Kennedy,also of the Treasury Board.

Both very capable and _competent -~U.~~~~ servants.As a matter of fact, I think it may be appropriate at this time, if I am allowed,to pay tribute to these two gentlemen in operating this part of The Atlantic Lottery in Newfoundland in such a capable and efficient manner as they have. I think it might be fair to them to say that this was and is an opportunity for great political and other abuses and I do not think it has happened. I think they have managed to do it very, very nicely and I think it has worked out very , very well. It has been done by the public service and there has been no political involvement.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: . .. I have two and I can put them to2ether if .T ~~~. Mr. Speaker, they are related. I wonder would the Minister indicate ~whether the provincial treasury has received any returns, any revenue 'from the lottery to date and also would he indicate whether the treasury has to date underwritten any of the costs of the administration, the operation of the lottery. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.

DOODY: No , the answer on both counts is no • W'e have not received any returns to my knowledge as yet ' although we are anticipating some , and with some glee • Our share of the ~osts will be deducted from that payment when it comes through.

The present cost or the administration, the ongoing cost and the formation of the whole thing was underwritten and financed by the Council of Maritime Premiers Organization of which this province is not a part,but we participated in the lottery group and they will bill us for our portion of it when they make their first delication of the profits • • SPEAKER: A supplementary , hon. member for Conception Bay South. f, 1679

February 28,1977 Tape 612 AH-2 MR. NOLAN: To the. Minister of Finance on the same subject. I wonder if he could provide the House with some information ~regarding the percentage breakdownl, __ Of . the on the Atlantic Lotto, how much returns to dollar taken in, the province is .concerned and how much of it would go into operating costs and so on· ?What percentage of the dollar really comes back to the ---------------------------- people. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister. MR.

DOODY: That is difficult once again, but if the House,as I have heard my honourable and learned friend over here say without prejudice, my understanding is that something like 40 per cent is retained by the operators and something like 60 per cent goes out in prizes but I would like to get that straighted out and give it to you in more detail.

The operating expenses and so on, as I say, and all the other detail, if it is so desired, I can get it for you perhaps in the form of a statement or , it maybe more convenient than having all these - And incidentially , tickets are available at all drugstores and other outlets in the province. MR.. SPEAKER: Is any hon. member now rising on a supplementary.? One additional supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Could the minister indicate to the House who is ~~sponsible for the designation of the agents for the distribution of tickets in the province. Would you please? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister. MR.

DOODY: The hiring and designation and the actual, even physical breakdown,was handled by the officials, the board of directors who consist of two public officials from each of the four provinces and the general manager of the corporation, Mr. John Mark Le Faye who was the number two man in the Quebec lottery effort until the Atlantic Lottery managed to snare him. These people associated with a consultant firm called:;;; and I stand to be corrected on this 1680

February 28,1977 Tape 612 AH-3 MR. DOODY: again because I was not expecting this today _ _:- ~~ :f~ __ Ro~s Associates I think, . wer~- the public consulting firms. These people advertised for distributors and agents and so on and the applications all went to Moncton and all the hirings were done and the screenings and the interview were done by these people. And that is how it was done. We had nothing to do with it. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay followed by Fogo, Carbonear and Terra Nova. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister xof Transportation and Commm.unication.

The minister is aware that '· today is the last day I believe for the registration of snowmoblie and all-terraine vehicles in the province and I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not any consideration has been given to an extension for isolated communities. I am thinking in particular of communities like ijarbour Deep in my district which I found out today ,. 90 per cent of the people do not have their licenses back,and they have been told from the Corner Brook office that it may be four or five weeks before they will get them back because of backlogs • So 1681

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 613 Page 1 - mw Mr. Rideout • in isolated instances I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not there will be an extension for those ' coDDilunities. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, today is the last day for the licencing or registration of these typ~s of vehicles, snowmobiles and all-terrain vehicles in the Province. There has been no consideration given to extending that deadline as of today or beyond today based on the fact that in the Fall of last year, 1976, it was announced then that the· -. deadline would be the end of February.

I understand from the motor vehicle registrar that approximately 12,000 vehicles have been registered as of last week, last Friday. We have no definite indication of how many of these vehicles are in the Province based on the fact that it is the first time of lice~cing these vehicles. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Four times that number. MR. MORGAN: That is an educated guess. It is a one time registration of these vehicles.

There has been no consideration given to the deadline for registering, but, however, in cases like the hon. gentleman mentioned in his question, in cases, for example, where they have made application, and they have forwarded their money orders, etc., and they have not received in return their licencing, well that is no fault of the applicant applying ~or the licence. In cases like that consideration might be given. It is something that I will look at tomorrow morning with regards to maybe using some other identification like, for example, a money order -has been used to purchase the plates, etc. or~ decal.

And so consideraticn could be given to that aspect but not to extending the deadline beyond today's date. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, I thank the minister for the consideration that 1682

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 613 Page 2. - mw Mr. Rideout. he is going to give. to_t.his matter.' I wonder, in the form of a supplementary, if the minister would undertake also,once he has considered it,to inform the law e~orcement agencies in those ,-------------------------particular areas? I would only be concerned about the isolated . ~t::eas .l_mean __ i.Lthe_ people in Baie Verte have not got it 1 th~~ _i_s .. . their problem. MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I will take that latter part of the ---\uestion,~~b~-- supplementary under advisement and may be tomorrow indicate to the Assembly ·exactly what steps will be taken by the department with regards to the licencing of those vehicles. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary .. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS : Mr.. S"peaker, on the same. subject.

I wonder would \ the minister indicate 'what is being done .:.J.n those cases where ~he applicant for a snowmobile licence is unable to obtain a . -bill of salet I understand there is quite a large number of people ----in that particular category, people, for example - in my own instance, for example. I have had a machine for eight years, and I would not know where to go look for the bill of sale.

The person who sold me the machine has left the Province, and I am in a position .- and I. juat quote this only as an example, because there are many hundreds in this paaition - I am in a position where i~ is virtually impossib!e, if not completely impossible, to obt~in a bill of sale from the person from whom I purchased the macl\ine. I wonder is there any arrangement made to accommodate persons such as that? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I have not got a copy of the act here with me~ ~t I understand the legislation clearly indicates that a declaration \ or an affidavit indicating the purchase price of that vehicle is. sufficient with regards to licencing the vehicle. \ MR. SPEAKER: .The hon. member for Fogo~ CAPT .. WINSOR: Mr .. Speaker, a ques .tion for Energy. Can the minister inform the House if a decision has, beea reached \\ - · ----.~;,------.~ \--- = --- -· -- -· 1683

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 613 Page 3 - mw Capt. Winsor. by Eastcan following their meetings at Ottawa last year, whether they will carry on drilling again off the Labrador Coast this season? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: I think the hon. member is talking about last week's meeting. CAPT. WINSOR: Yes, yes. MR. PECKFORD: I thought you said last year. CAPT. WINSOR: No, no , last week. MR. PECKFORD: Last week's meeting. No, we do not have any indication of Eastcan's decision.

We understand that they are soon to make· a decision, and we also understand that meetings are underway in gay Paris today and tomorrow, hopefully,relative to that matter. And, therefore, we anticipate hearing very soon as to their plans for thiscoming year ·an&: for the next couple of years. And I can also ilndicate that other meetings ~11 be held between Eastcan and the government in the next few weekS. CAPT. WINS01l: A supplemetary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. CAPT.

WINSOR: Has the minister anything to add to statements alleged ~o have been made by tw~ executives of~ifferent oil compani~s at Halifax during the weekend where they are taking a dim look now at the drilling for oil and gas . off the Labrador Coast? It may not be as flourishing as we once thought. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: There has always been a very cau~ionary_not~ ~¥ - \ 1110st companies in the ; 1684

February 28, 1977 Tape 614 I PK - 1 Mr.

Peck.ford: explorat"iot.T activity off Labrador, and especially in the very deep water off the East Coast. _ I_t_ ~s very difficult to interpret some of the comments that are being made by the oil companies in the last few weeks, primarily because you have to first consider what area they are really talking abou~- _if they throw the whole East Coast into their statement, and say the East Coast of Canada, one can talk about the unsuccessful attemps on drilling on the Grand Banks1, one can talk about the ongoing unsuccessful attempts of drilling off the Scotia Shelf, and one can talk about the very deep water off the Northeast Shelf or off the Labrador Shelf.

But if one talks specifically about the Labrador Coast and the activities of Eastcan .primarily,in the last couple of years, one would have to be very optimistic because the batting average is way above anything else that has occurred in any exploration activity that I am aware of in the world. So, you know, when you have three discoveries, out of six of seven wells that is an awfully good batting average. But if you take the whole thing, the whole East Coast play, if you want, then most companies are very cautious and spend their money very wisely on any exploration activity.

Add ·to that t'he present prognostications by experts who say that there is going to be a surplus of gas, or there already is a · surplus of gas, and that we might not need Mackenize Valley Delta gas until 1980 or 1982 which is a different story than they were telling us six or eight months ago. So it is very difficult to interpret the comments, but if you relate it primarily to the geological structures off the East Coast·-Labrador were you talk about the Bjarni fie~ d of the Gudrid field or the Snorri field or some of the other structures that have been identified then one must be optimistic. SOME RON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WHITE: A supplementary. MR. SPEIDR: A supplementary. ;, 1685

F~bruary 28, 1977 Tape 614 Pk- 2 ~--- JJRITE!. ~Mr. Speaker, my question has to do with the statement by the Federal Minister of Energy, Mr. Gillespie, in the ~ouse of Commons last week, who suggested that $55 million would be spent in Newfoundland if the Newfoundland Government withdrew its regulations and I wonder if this has been communicated to __ L -- the minister? Fifty-five million dollars would be spent in Newfoundland on offshore drilling, if the Newfoundland Government withdrew its regulations, and I am wondering if this has been communicated to the minister by the oil companies? I MR..

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR.. PECKFORD: No that has not been provided to me. I do not know what $55 million Mr. Gillespie is speaking of. If he is talking about Eastcan shutting off all it exploration activity this year, and one assumed that they were going to spent $55 million or $60 million, of that $55 million or $60 million we could expect to get, in dollar _value, 5 per cent of that in the Province. So the way the hon. member worded his question from the information he had, I will have to say the information is erroneous.

What would come to Newfoundland without the regulations, presently proposed, would be about 5 per cent of whatever the total amount the exploration or whatever it was • MR. WHITE: Fifty-five million would be spent. MR. PECKFORD: Eastcan has indicated to me on a number of occasions, especially last Fall, that they were talking about a $40 million to ~ $60 million programme, so you can take whichever end of that you wish. ~ ~ But I think the salient; point is that up to this point in time the amount of activity~financial returns to the Province, was about 5 per cent of their total amount of money that they spent.

MR.. SPEAKER: I have indicated that I would recognize the bon. member from Carbonear (Mr. R: Moores) after the hon. gentleman from Fogo (Capt. Winsor). MR. R. MOORES: A question for the bon. Minister of Municipal ~fai.rs. Mr. Speaker, in November of last year, a construction activity in Carbonear namely, the installation of a water main for the ~ 1686

February 28, 1977 Tape 614 PK- 3 MR. R. Moores: community valuing some $1.1 million was halted due to a bankruptcy suit or a quasi bankruptcy situation. What now is the minister's or the government's intention with regard to the completion of that water main? MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. DINN: The bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Well with regards to the funds that are available for the project now, the funds that we have available, we will, you know, make that available when the discussions between the company - - --'1. t at was out there and the department are finished.

They are not in receivership as I unders~and it. So there is very little we can do, and it is up to the town and the consultant. But the money is available and that is being protected by the town. MR. R. MOORES: MR. SPEAKER: MR. R. MOORES: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Related, Mr. Speaker, but not directly related subsequent to that halting of the construction activity the ministe~ presumably. representing the government,agreed to)out of the public tresury of the Province)pay 1687

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 615 Page 1 - mw Mr. R. Moores. the entire back ~ges owing from the quasi bankruptcy situation to the employees~ For a clarification of the question, Mr. Speaker, I personally contacted all of the major creditors involved in the quasi situation and they agreed to release the wages from the holdback money. Why then did the minister, a Minister of the Crown gamble a further $20,000 plus - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must ask the hon. gentleman to put his question in a factual way, but not in such a way as to imply debate. MR. R. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, for a clarification for the House there is no need or I am not provoking debate. The question is _ \ simply: Why did the minister, why did the government gamble ~$20,000 further of public funds when they could have gotten the wages from the private people, the private enterprises involved -, from the holdback fee? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: ~The $18,000 \ in the bank, The hon. minister. Mr. Speaker, there was absolutely no gamble at all. was paid out, and we have the monies in lieu of bond and it is available to us. When the project goes on, we will just collect the money. It is not a gamble. MR.

SPEAKER: The time is up. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MOtion, the hon. Minister of Finance to introdu~e a bill, "An Act To Amend The Stephenville Linerboard Mill (Agreement) Act, 1972,''" carried. (Bill No. 21) On motion, Bill No. 21 read a fir.st time, ordered second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Forestry to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Land Development Act, 11 carried. (Bill No. 22). On motion, Bill No. 22 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon.

Minister of Finance t~~ introduce a ~ bill, "An Act To Enable \ A Federal Corporation," The Bennett Brewing Company Limited To Become carried. (Bill No. 23). 1688

February 28, 1977 Tape no .. 615 Page 2 - mw On motion, Bill No. 23 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MOtion, the hon. Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Repeal The Canadian Javelin Limited (Acquisition Of Crown Lands) Act, 1970," carried. (Bill No. 24). On motion, Bill No. 24 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Local Government (Elections) ~Act," carried. (Bill No. 26). On motion, Bill No. 26 read a first time, ordered read I a second time on tomorrow. 1.689

,_4 February~1977 Tape 616 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER: Order 1, the adjourned debate on the amendment to the address in reply. The han. member for St. John's South. DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I can perhaps do no better in starting than to emulate my good friend, the hon. member for Bay of Islands.

In offering some congratulations, before I get into the body of my remarks, I would firstly like to offer congratulations to my medical. confrer~ the hon. member for Exploits-· ·n is a little unusual to refer to him in. _thor;e terms, but "the hon. member, as many of you know,has been in medical practice in this province for many years,.As a matter of fact, I think, this summer he ·will have been in practice here for thirty years; . ,_ SC?me:thing Like twenty-seven or twenty-eight of them, in the town of Botwood and in that area,and indeed throughout the province • The han. member has been a bit of a legend in his own time, and certainly has given outstanding service to the population of the province.

SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: The hon. member was not native born, not native born to Newfoundland, that is, but of course he is a Canadian to the same extent that we atl Canadians in that he was here when the province became a province of Canada.

I would hope that whatever changes go on in medical practice in the future, and there are changes going on in the practice of medicine,that there will be the same close contact and the same humanity, the same personal concern shown by those practicing the profession,that the han. member from Exploits has shown to the people of Botwood and the people who came under his care _during ~11_ ~hes~ years.

I would also like to offer some congratulations to my former seat mate, the han. member for Bonavista North who moved the Address in Reply, .Of course we are all aware of the notable feat that he was engaged in, in carrying of his election, I am sure 1690

~4 February )6,1977 Tape 616 AH-2 DR. COLLINS: everyone on both sides of the House offer him the most sincere congratulations in this regard and he was a very worthy mover of the Address in Reply. I also offer congratulations to, and this is the first opp~rtunity I have had to do so in any sort of a public way, to the· Minister for ~!unicipal Affairs and Housing. The new minister occupies a portfolio which is of tremendous concern to the people in my district, indeed to people in districts throughout the St. John's area , and also,of course,throughout all districts in the province.

In particular his ministry is of great concern to us and I will speak on this a little bit later on because of the new moves that are made to reorganize municipal government in the St. John's area. The minister is a very worthy successor to other powerful people who have been in that portfolio and in that regard I mention the hon. John Crosbie and of course the present minister of Mines and Energy. A word of congratulations also, though he is not here, to the hon. member for Ferryland.

He presents us with a fresh face,which never goes amiss, I will not say particularly on the benqhes opposite, a fresh face probably would not go amiss on either side, but certainly it does not ago amiss on the benches opposite. I wish he were here because I would like to compliment .· him on his maiden speech the other day, which I thought was an extremely fine effort. Finally , if I may be permitted t would like to offer a word of congratulations to someone,in whose district I

part l y- resideJ that is the · hon. member for Conception Bay South. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Here, here! 1.691

,._4 February ~1977 Tape , 616 AH-3 DR. COLLINS: He has reached 7 as you know, the dizzy heights of opp~sition House Leader and I would congratulate him on that. I would just like to point out to him that that post is one associated with a high rate of attrition, I think the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde occupied that post, the hon. minister for Fogo occupied tha~ post and I believe, Mr. William Rowe occupied that post ~ ,neither of which are in the post now- MJL ROBERTS : The caliber is rated very high. 1692

February 28, 1977 Tape no. 617 Page 1 - mw Dr. Collins. The calibre is high, but the stay is rather short. Mr. Speaker, I would like to make some comments in regard to my own district. I hope most hen. members will remember that I do represent St. John's South. St. John's South is an area of Newfoundland which has been occupied for very, very many years. It is probably the area of the Island of Newfoundland, the Island part of the Province, that has been occupied longer than any other area with the possible exception of the Placentia area, and perhaps in the immediate Conception Bay area.

The hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) I see is shaking his head there, and he probably means by that that the Eastern

section of the city of St. John's was occupied for a longer period.of time, and that is quite true. But the Western part of the city, which comprises the St. John's South district, was occupied and used by visitors to our Province for very many years. Despite that it is really a new district. During the redistribution the district was altered quite a bit, and it now lies wholly within the urban area of St. John's, and I have the privilege of being the first member to represent the new district of St. John·'s South. However, I would not like to leave the impression that the people in St.

John's South have only, shall we say, urban concerns. The people of St. John's South have many concerns. As an example I might mention that they are very concerned,or at least some portion of my constituents are very concerned 7 regarding the fisheries, and regarding marine works generally. Many peo~le in St. John's South are closely associated with the harbour, and there is an inshore fishery that is based in St. John's South. I would hope that that fishery will increase in the coming years because certainly there is a market in the immediate St. John's area where the inshore fishery can flourish.

There have been many remarks, of course, about the need for water and sewerage in various parts of the Province. It may surprise some members in this House to know that in my district that concern is shared. Not all areas in the district of St. John's South have piped water and sewerage. I am referring, of course, to perhaps one of the more historic parts of the city, and that is the community, if you want to call it that, of Fort Amherst. Fort Amherst reaches far back into 1.693

Febru~ry 28, 1977 Tape no. 617 Page 2 - mw the history of the Province, and certainly of the city of St. John's, and there are approximately thirty to thirty-five families living there. They are a very tightly knit group. They are a very industrious group of people. Yet they have not had the privilege of having water and sewerage. As a matter of fact it was only in relatively recent times that they have had electricity into the area. Now the council, of course, the municipal council of St.

John's is the body that is responsible for this and the -· council certainly do have a problem on their hands because of the topography of the area. But despite that I would like to bring to the attention of my fellow members of the House that the people in the urban areas often do share the concerns and the difficulties of people in the rural areas. The impression may also be about - or at least it has been expressed on occasion that the urban dweller is a very opulent person in comparison to the rural dweller. Well I would like to put that to rest certainly in regard to my own district.

And I would like to quote if I may a few statistics in that regard. I can only quote for the year 1974-1975 because these are the only statistics available from the Department of Social Services' report. But in the district of·St. John's South the number on able-bodied, short-term assistance was the highest fdr the whole forty-one districts •. 1694

February 28, 1977 Tape 618 PK - 1 Dr. Collins: When this report was complied, of course, there were forty-one electoral districts in the Province, _ and __ St. John's South had the dubious record of being at the top of the list in terms of the number of able-bodied on short-term assistance. If we look at the cost, the expenditure for able-bodied short-term social assistance St. John's South district was the second on the list only exceeded by the district of Port au Port. And the number on long- term social assistance St. John's South was sixth in line of the forty- one. ,.

I So I do not think anyone can say that in that part of the urban area anyway _ that the people are over opulent, over- favoured in comparison to the rest of the Province. As well as unemployment and the need for social assistance or other problems in the district of St. John's South, possibly the greatest one is in regard to housing. The district of St. John's South is a very densely populated area. The housing stock is by and large not new, there are new -~ousing areas in the district, but by and large it is not new housing stock.

The housing stock has tended to change hands over the years, and has tended to become occupied or even owned by those less favoured in terms of wealth than previously, and it means that the housing stock has tended to deteroriate in maintenance and in general care and attention .. ~ ~ot· that my coa.stituents are neglectful in that regard, but that their means have not allowed them to keep up their housing stock to the extent that most of them would desire. Another difficulty in the area is the lack of recreational and open space. There is a park in the district of St.

John's South, . - - ... --Victoria Park, but except for that it ,_and -{9- rather a small oark. it is rather an underdeveloped park; in terms of facilities, there is very, very little in the way of recreational facility and open space. And this is in an area, as I mentioned before, which is densely populated and with a high proportion of children in the population. 1695

February 28, 1977 Tape 618 PK- 2 Dr. Collins: In my district also we have a hospital. I will not say it is a district ho~pital, because none of the hospitals in St. John's really are district hospitals, they are hospitals for the City and to some extent they are base hospitals for the Province. But despite that, it is to some extent a district facility, _ ~d I am referring to the Grace General Hospital.

The Grac~ General Hospital is a very old hospital with a very noteworthy record ~It has been administered by the Salvation Army throughout, it has given yomen service throughout the district, and indeed throughout the Province. It was opened in 1923, it was extended in 1967, and.it is in full operation as a general hospital at the present time. Now I mention .this to get to the point that the hospital has tended to fall on hard times in recent years. In terms of capital expenditure, it has been a little bit at the wrong end of the stick.

In terms of· capital equipment expenditure, again it has tended to get rather less,in my view, than is warranted by the amount of work that goes on there, and the amount of responsibility that has to be discharged by the hospital and by its staff. I am gald to say that this point has been forcibly and vigorously brought to the attention of the authorities by the administration, and by the staff of the hospital. And without endeavouring in any way to get more than is their due I think there is some expectation that' some of deficiencies will be made up in the · not too distant future.

The problems,of course, require a solution;, and I am glad to say that there is some prospect --for a solution to the housing one that I mentioned, which is possibly the major one. The NIP programme, the federal NIP programme, the Neighbourhood Improvement Programme will be - i - -·-- - ---- ; 1696

February 28, 1977 Tape 619 IB-1 DR. COLLINS: implemented within a goodly part of the district of St. John's South and because it will be designated as a NIP area there will also be the associated programme, the Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Programme brought in. The latter will allow householders to acquire loans and in some cases grants to refurbish their housing. The NIP funds themselves will allow the whole area to be upgraded in terms of streeting, lighting, sewer arrangements, traffic redirection and so on and so forth. The total federal grants will amount to $1,152,000.

There will also be a federal loan which of course will be the respon~ibility of the municipal authority ultimately to repay. It will amount to $1,700,000. · The municipal council itself will make a contribution of $300,000 and provincial government will also make a contribution of some $200,000. This is a very exciting programme for the area and the studies are going on now which will allow a plan to. be drawn up. There is already a board of citizens in operation who 'wil'l advise the planners as to citizen input.

The district is also looking forward in the not too distant future, I hope, to seeing the removal of much of the CN facility down there. The CN facility is a very necessary facility but fortunately it is being moved out of my district because it really is an eyesore. I think the CN cannot be too severely criticized for the way that the whole area along the Southside Road, the whole ar~a along the West end of Water Street has been allowed to acquire a rather non­ descript, dowdy appearance because of CN yards ·and buildings and facilities. I would hope as the hon.

Minister of Consumer Affairs mentioned that the rather attractive station itself, the building itself will be preserved, . hu~ . that the unsightly yards and the uncultivated banks and the various other rather untidy looking aspects of CN property will be used for other purposes and upgraded in the process. Another area that we look forward to seeing development in - but I am·afraid that I do not see really much prospect at the present time·­ is in development of the harbour. There were developments in the St. John's Harbour a number of years ago when I believe something in the order ·-

February 28, 1977 Tape 619 IB-2 DR. COLLINS: of $26 million was spent. It seemed a lot of money at the time and indeed it was. But in comparison to federal monies spent in areas like Halifax and St. John, our neighbor Atlantic ports, it was really peanuts. And I think the time is long past when the St. John's Harbour, even though it is not a harbour used for intransit traffic in the ordinary sense of the term, it nevertheless is a harbour that has a great future for Northern development.

It has a great future forthe s~rvicing of the new fishing fleets we will see off our coast and it has a great future in the general servicing of shipping on the- transatlantic run:. So I would think that the harbour has certainly the rights to deserve extensive federal redevelopment. I will certainly work towards that. But I am afraid that I cannot at this time see it in early prospects~ Turning now, ~r. Speaker, to the St. John's urban study. My hon. friend for Mount Scio (Dr. Winsor)had spoken on this to a large extent the other day, but I would like to mention a few points that concern me particularly.

As you will all remember this study was initiated in the 1970-1971 area under the former administration but was completed under the present administration. In 1976 last year the regional plan was adopted. The Henley Commission has now come - in with final recommendations in terms of the governance of the area. I ·would hope that we will have 1698

February 28, 1977 Tape No. 620 DR. COLLINS: a greater opportunity to debate this matter later in the session. I would just confine myself to a few remarks. The first one that does concern me is in terms of NM- 1 the ward system that is suggested in the Henley Report. I could not be in greater favour of a ward system for the Municipal Council of St. John's. MR. DOODY: Hear! Rear! DR. COLLINS: This is something that has been in great need for many, many years. I think there is no validity to the argument that this would in any way undermine the interest of councillors on a broad city basis.

I think it would do the opposite. I think it would give them greater context with the city as a whole. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Rear! Hear! DR. COLLINS: The only point that I would differ with in this regards with the commdssioners is that they do recommend two types of councillor, two types of ward councillor and I cannot quite see this working. They look to several councillors, elected on a city-wide basis and others elected on a district basis. This would mean that you would have two levels of councillor and I cannot see how a municipal council would operate efficiently under such an arrangement. AN RON.

MEMBER: Hear! Hear! DR. COLLINS: Having said that I am in favour of one aspect of the Henley Report I would not like to leave the impression that I am in favour of it all and I certainly see the fears of some areas around St. John's, such as Mount Pearl, I am sure my hon. friend from Mount Pearl has put forth his case well and I certainly see· the fears that such places and such communities might have if they looked to some of the neglected areas of the city at the present time, such as my own district.

And these other areas that might be incorporated into a large city, they would certainly have to have a greater guarantee than history would give them as to their continued development if they are to look at an enlarged city of which they would be a part. 1699

February 28, 1977 Tape No. 620 NM- 2 DR. COLLINS: Another area in this regard, that I have concern over, and that is the a~r~g~ent for district governments. It would seem to me that this is going to impose another level of government on the poor citizen. So the citizen might end up with a district ward councillor, then a city-wide municipal councillor presumably 1 if the Henley Commission is followed 1 he would then have ~ist~~ct gover~ents _ a~ the next layer, he would then have somewhere along the way I presume his MRA, and the~ finally he would have the provincial government.

So he would have five layers of government to deal with. And this seems to me an unnecessary way to government and I am sure that there can be other. arran~ents made. I would like to see the MHA and the district·- - council in some way integrated and this would certainly reduce the weight of government and would give the MHA more opportunity to serve the district for whi~h he is elected. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! Excellent. DR. COLLINS: I would like to turn now, Mr. Speaker, to the House of Assembly, some consideration of our Own activities here and I was disappointed that the hon. member for Kilbride (Mr.

Wells) seemed to get such short shift to what I thought was a - it is a very excellent suggestion or a number of suggestions he made. I have them before me here and in brief

summary he wishes to· experiment with shorter speeches. He wishes to experiment with - - - - - -- -- having some of our motions brou~ht forward and dehatP.n with expedition and brought to a vote, and he wishes to have the remarks of members more to the point and less diffuse. All these points seem to me very well taken indeed. They would certainly perhaps reduce our freedom a little bit from what it is at the present time but I think that freedom can very easily degenerate into licence and I am sure that the hon. member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) had no intention to limit freedom to the extent that it would ' muzzle anyone but that he wanted --------- - ------------ ---- ---- 1700

February 28, 1977 Tape 621 IB-1 DR. COLLINS: to make our deliberations more fruitful. I would certainly support him on that. The way we operate here at the present time I think is open to criticism. When petitions are presented sometimes one loses sight of •what the petition is all about in hearing the political points made over them. I think that this is . a disservice to the petitioners when the very legitimate concerns that they bring forward are distorted or misrepresented so as to gain some political advantage. I would like to compliment my friend, the hon. member for Exploits (Dr.

Twomey) on the way he presented his petition and indeed the hon. member for Fogo (Capt. Winsor) a few days ago also presented a petition which I thought was done in an exemplar ~ fashion. The prayer was given, it was supported and supported in such a way that one felt like supporting it. It was not presented in such a way as to lambaste this side of the House or indeed anyone. In our debates here we do many times have specious arguments put forward. And I would have to say that my fellow hockey player, the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr.

White),di~ engage in such specious arguments the other day when he pointed a finger of scorn at the government over Bonavista North)at the ttme of the election,and if there were any public works carried out there. This was supposed to be a matter that was not correct. On the other hand . he immediately then said that he had many federal projects going forward in h~s own area and this then was apparently all right. But if it is all right for one, how can it be all right for the other? What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

This type of specious argument I ·do not think adds really very much to the House. In terms of length of speaking, I think that not only is it dreary to have long speeches - and I hope I do not offend in that regard - but I think even more important is that in this House ¥7e have people with a great deal of expertise on both sides, the people from various walks of life, people who can add a lot to the House, and if these pe~ple are prevented from speaking by other people unduly occupying the time of the House, I think it is most unfortunate.

The press have been taken to task sometimes for not reporting what ------ - - --------------- -----

February 28, 1977 Tape 621 IB-2 DR. COLLINS: goes on in the House. This of course does get back to the quality of debate here. I think if we did have better quality of debate, I think we would find the press paying more attention. I do not think the press is above complaint. I think the press many times tend to sensationalize, they tend to editorialize when they should be giving the facts. They tend to let personal bias get in the way} and this diminishes the quality of their reporting. But the House certainly could help if it would undertake some reform· such as the hen. member for Kilbride (Mr.

Wells) brought forward. If not that precise reform· at least some reform. of the rules with the same objective in mind. Mr. Speaker, if I may make a few comments on health. I feel I should do this and that I have some reason to speak about health as I have been in the health field throughout my adult life, some twenty-five years in practice in the Province. The concerns of health of course are, by and large, two: One, the supply of health services where they are needed. And the second concern is that there should be efficiency in the system. That is proper use and proper economic use of the system.

Now it is not my intention in any way at this t~~ to present a plan for ensuring that supply of services is 1702

February 28, 1977 Tape Ro. 62