April 6,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLII No. 14

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Dicks): Order, please!

On behalf of hon. members I would like to welcome two groups

to the House of Assembly, first of all a group of fourteen Long Island students

from Beaumont, Green Bay, accompanied by their teacher Mr. Lorne Roach, and

secondly a group of twelve Adult Basic Education students from the Bonavista

Campus of Eastern College, accompanied by their instructor Ms. Julia Russell.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of the Environment.

MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I want to take this opportunity

to inform this hon. House of preliminary results of a soil gas survey on

Rutledge Crescent in St. John's. The residents of Rutledge have been

experiencing problems with odours entering their homes from the storm sewer

system since late 1992. Chemical testing of the vapours in the sewer show the

odour to be consistent with gasoline contamination. Groundwater and soil

surveys, however, have to date been unable to pinpoint the source of the

problem.

In a further and continuing effort to identify the source of

the contamination my department contracted CH2M Hill Engineering Limited of

Waterloo, Ontario to do an additional field study of the odour problems. CH2M

Hill is a leading Canadian environmental engineering firm with extensive

experience in hydrogeological investigation and specific experience in

subsurface hydrocarbon contamination.

Between March 27 & 30 CH2M Hill carried out a soil vapour

survey between Rutledge Crescent and the two gas stations in the vicinity - the

Co-op station on Harding Road and the Ultramar station on Logy Bay Road. The

survey involved analyzing for organic vapours immediately above the water table.

Although the final report has not been prepared, CH2M Hill's field staff have

indicated that the survey produced positive results in two independent areas.

One area is between the Co-op gas station and houses on Rutledge crescent and

the other immediately across Logy Bay Road from the pump island of the Ultramar

station.

Mr. Speaker, my department has informed the members of

Rutledge Crescent Residents Committee and the City of St. John's of these

results and assured them that these vapour levels pose no immediate threat. As

these are only preliminary results, further action will depend on the outcome of

the final report which is expected on April 17. Officials of my department will

review that report, which will also be made available to the residents, to

determine what our next course of action should be.

Mr. Speaker, I want to assure this hon. House that the

Department of Environment and the Province is committed to the safety of the

residents and their property and that we will continue to work with them towards

a resolution of this outstanding problem.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First I would like to thank the minister for a copy of his

statement before the House sat. I am sure the people in Rutledge Crescent are

very pleased that there is finally some positive action being taken with respect

to the problems they have had there the past couple of years. I believe

personally that there is further investigation required with respect to the

Works, Services and Transportation depot on Harding Road where there was a fuel

tank removed last year because it was leaking very badly. The people in the area

are depending on this minister to find the problem and to remedy it in the very

near future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to

the Minister for Works, Services and Transportation.

About a year ago now, Mr. Speaker, the federal Minister of

Transport announced that he was going to sort of commercialize a lot of airports

in Canada. Some of the airports mentioned at the time were in our Province, the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. As of late, Mr. Speaker, along with the

other cuts to airports across this Province, especially Wabush, Stephenville and

the town of Deer Lake, there are other cuts announced lately with regards to

firefighting services and so on. Could the minister tell the House if and when

he has made or his other ministers have made any representation to the federal

government as it pertains to what they are doing with airports in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Since the federal airport policy was initiated, officials

from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation have been involved in

all the meetings that have been held by the federal ministers and transport

officials coming into Newfoundland on an ongoing regular basis. We have been

kept apprised of all the meetings. The monitoring position has been in place. I

have spoken to the people in Stephenville, to the people in Deer Lake, to the

people in Gander. I spoke to the people in Labrador City last weekend. Before

that time I have spoken to the federal officials and Minister Young on a number

of occasions about the new airport policy and the impact it will have on all of

the airports in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: The minister is aware of the Transport

Canada decision to withdraw emergency response firefighting from the town of

Wabush. This will result, Mr. Speaker, in reduced emergency response services in

all the other airports and especially at Stephenville and Deer Lake and will

mean reduced safety for emergency response services at the other airports,

especially as it pertains to Stephenville and Deer Lake, will mean reduced

safety for the travellers in those airports - no question, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister now tell the House if he is aware of a

further cut to the airports in Stephenville and Deer Lake whereby the emergency

response procedure that will be followed is this: One fire-fighter, operating

one foam fire truck, at the Deer Lake Airport and the Stephenville Airport?

Could the minister inform the House if he is aware of that, and if he has made

any representation to the Federal Government on that particular concern?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that. The

only service that I am aware of that is being cut is into Labrador West, into

Wabush, where they have informed the local people, the town, that these services

will be eliminated. They have offered the Town of Wabush the equipment at the

airport, and they have offered some training - that is the negotiation up front

- and they haven't accepted the thing.

I have not been informed by the officials, or by Transport

Canada, that service has yet been cut at Deer Lake, or is intended to be cut at

Deer Lake or at Stephenville. I will check it out immediately.

I can say that on April 26 or April 27 there will be a

conference held in Gander of all the players of Atlantic Canada to discuss all

of the cuts that Transport Canada proposes in the airports in Atlantic Canada,

and at that time there will be a position taken on all of the issues. The

emergency fire-fighting services is one, and there are many, many other issues

to be discussed before any final decisions are made.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary.

I say to the minister that in his last comments he said,

`...before any final decisions are made'. The final decisions have been made as

they pertain to the fire-fighting capacity of the airports in this Province, and

a directive has been sent to the airports in Stephenville and Deer Lake, saying

that they were going to have one fire-fighter for operating one truck.

Now, I say to the minister that when he does have his

meetings with Mr. Young and Transport Canada officials, he should make it quite

clear to them that the life of a passenger coming into the Town of Deer Lake,

Wabush or Stephenville is just as important as the life of a passenger in

Moncton, Toronto, Halifax, Vancouver, or anywhere else in this country.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister: Is he

aware that the Assistant Deputy Minister of Transport Canada, a Mr. Victor

Barbeau, has issued, on behalf of Transport Canada, a warning to the employees

associated with any federal departments, especially concerning this particular

subject, that they will be disciplined if they say anything in public about it.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that

warning. Let me say to the hon. member, the lives of people in Newfoundland are

just as valuable as the lives of people anywhere in Canada. Let me say also that

it is a national airport policy, not a provincial airport policy. The decisions

that are made in Newfoundland are no different from the airports all over

Canada, depending on the passenger, the volume that is used at the airports. As

far as emergency services are required, it is the decision that is provided

right across the country. So for the hon. member to get up and say that the

decision made isolated Newfoundland, that the lives of people in Newfoundland

are less important to the people of Transport Canada than lives somewhere else,

is absolutely wrong. So if you are going to make a statement, make the correct

statement. This is a national policy and I can -

MR. TOBIN: Stand up. We are asking you to stand up and

fight for Newfoundland.

MR. EFFORD: I am standing up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, the cost of operating the

airports in Newfoundland and all across Canada is a major problem. The $45

billion deficit to the taxpayers of this country is a major problem. What the

federal Transport Canada minister is saying is that we have to operate these

airports across the country more efficiently. You can't operate it with the debt

that it has carried over the years. The way in which you people operated the

Province for seventeen years and the reason we have to suffer the circumstances

we have, is because of mismanagement. Now that there is some proper management

being put in place, you don't agree with that system either.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister, it may

be a national policy, it may be something that he thinks is applicable to every

airport town across this country, but I would say he had better get his facts

straight. There are fifteen airports with fire-fighting services across Canada

gone, altogether. There are another ten with services reduced to one truck and

one fire-fighter. The town of Deer Lake is an example, with thirty-four flights

a day landing there. The minister had better get his facts straight before he

talks to his federal counterpart, because I'm half afraid of what is going to

happen.

Will the minister make a commitment to the House and to the

people of this Province today that when he does sit down to talk to Mr. Young

and his federal officials, he will not, for the sake of efficiency, jeopardize

and play russian roulette with the lives of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians

landing at any of those airports in this Province? Stand up for Newfoundland and

Labrador and see what is right.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I can tell the hon. member I was

standing up for Newfoundland and Labrador when those people over there were

ruining the Province. I take no back seat to anybody over there. I'm only

assuming the hon. member is correct about cutting back of the fire services at

Deer Lake. I have not received any information from Transport Canada or the Town

of Deer Lake or anybody else. I will check it out - another Evening Telegram

or another news report that is probably put out with the same accuracy as a lot

of the other stuff that is printed. When I receive it from the Town of Deer Lake

or Transport Canada, then I will take a look at it, but I will check it out this

afternoon.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question today

is for the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board dealing with the Workers'

Compensation Review Division. It was instituted on July 1, and from July 1 to

September 12 there was not one postponed case that was charged for, not one. My

question to the minister is this: Who made the decision to double-bill for

postponed cases? Was it the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, was it

the Chief Review Commissioner, or was it himself? Who made that decision, Mr.

Minister?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member can't have it

both ways. He brought some information to the attention of this House. We are

now checking it out and we have a process in place to review all the details. In

the meantime, the member keeps getting up and grandstanding on a very serious

issue. I would suggest he wait until the investigation is complete, and then he

can make his grandstanding statements if he wants to.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, I'm grandstanding for the

injured workers of this Province while this minister is grandstanding for a

former Liberal Cabinet Minister and former buddies of this government, that is

what this is about.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, let me say that I had a very

lengthy chat with a review commissioner last night. He indicated to me that

between July 1 and September 12 there were no postponed cases billed for. But

discussions were ongoing with the department at the time about charging for

postponed cases. So let me ask the former Minister of Employment and Labour

Relations, who was the minister at the time, the period that I just referred to,

is he aware, or was he made aware, by the Workers' Compensation Review Division

or commissioners there, that the issue of charging for postponed cases was an

issue? Was he aware of it? Did he participate in any discussions about it?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture

and Recreation.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. All I can say is that

to my knowledge, from the period of July 1 1994 when the Interim Review

Commissioner was appointed - Mr. Brace, I believe, at that time - up to the

change in Cabinet which happened at the end of August, I had never heard tell of

the issue that the member is raising.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Let me ask the former Minister of

Employment and Labour Relations so I have it straight. At any time between the

period of July 1, when you were the minister, and August 23, did the acting

Chief Review Commissioner or other commissioners, any of them, discuss with you

the possibility of charging for postponements?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: I will find the citation in a second.

AN HON. MEMBER: A cover-up.

MR. ROBERTS: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not a coverup. It is

an attempt to bring to the attention of my friend, the Member for Kilbride the

rules of the House which provide that it is not proper to ask a Member of the

Ministry about a matter that occurred during his tenure of a portfolio. The

appropriate thing is to ask the present minister, and the present minister will

answer for whatever was done or not done, because we are one government, entire,

indivisible, and we approach it on that basis. So my friend, the Member for

Kilbride, I suggest to Your Honour, is out of order in asking a question of the

present Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I don't want to belabour the point because we are taking up

the time of Question Period and, of course, that is the reason for the

Government House Leader's point of order. The point is that the Government House

Leader is trying to cover up the issue here. The former minister, the present

Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation, was on his feet and answered once,

and was prepared to answer again. Why would the Government House Leader want to

muzzle the minister, who was on his feet willing to answer a question, I ask

him?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Is this to the point of order?

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. SPEAKER: There are no speakers on the point of order.

I am aware of a reference to it. I will have to check it,

frankly, and advise the House later. For the time being, perhaps - the question

is on the paper and we will let it go. Does the hon. member have another

question?

MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, I can give you the citation.

MR. SPEAKER: Yes, if you would.

MR. ROBERTS: I am reading from the 6th. Edition of

Beauchesne , page 121, paragraph 410.(16) and it says: "Ministers may be

questioned only in relation to current portfolios." That, I believe, is the

correct citation.

MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry; it's 410 -

MR. ROBERTS: It's 410.(16).

MR. SPEAKER: Subsection 16. I believe there is also

reference on page 126. I prefer to review it and make a proper ruling on the

issue before I allow the question. Is there another question?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. SPEAKER: Okay, the hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In conversation last night with one of the part-time review

commissioners, he indicated to me that between July 1 and September 12 no

postponed decisions were double billed for. The Chief Review Commissioner, Mr.

Gullage, was appointed on September 8, and miraculously, four days later, the

postponements, or double billing practice of postponements, started on September

12. So let me ask the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, in his

investigation, his impartial investigation that he is conducting, will he take

this into account? Will he look between the period of July 1, 1994 and September

12, 1994, to determine that there were postponed cases, and, too, that there was

no double billing for it.

Secondly, will he also determine who made the decision to

double bill for postponed cases, if it was the Chief Review Commissioner, if it

was the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations? Who was it, and will he

report back to this House?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member made some charges

in this House. We are now carrying out an investigation, and the results will

become available as soon as they are available.

Mr. Speaker, I don't know if there was `double billing', as

he calls it. That is the whole point of the exercise, to find out if, in fact,

there was. I don't know if there is double billing. We will examine all aspects

of it.

I really regret that the hon. member will now get up day

after day and grandstand on the backs of the injured workers of this Province.

It is really regrettable that he is taking that approach.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is

for the hon. Minister of Social Services.

I would like to ask the minister: In her attempt to defend

her budget some time ago, she talked about not making Hydro bills payable

anymore by her department. I would like to ask the minister if she could sit

down and reconsider this payment. I ask the minister if paying such bills and

then deducting them from the client's regular payments might be an option, since

this was brought on by a sudden surprise, and arrears that have built up over

the past number of months.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We were never in the habit of paying electrical bills, it was

only arrears, and we found that even doing that was certainly not in the best

interest of the government or the recipients.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the minister if she or her department

have been made aware of other hardship cases, similar to the one that was

brought forward here in debate a couple of days ago by the Member for Burin -

Placentia West? I would like to advise her that I have been talking to at least

one other case in a similar circumstance. I ask the minister if she is planning

on responding with the financial help needed to help families cope in such

circumstances?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have great faith in the ability of my district staff to

deal with the issues as they arise, and I will leave it with them.

MR. TOBIN: You make the policy, not them.

MS. YOUNG: Exactly, and they implement the policy. That

is why I am leaving it to them. Every individual case does not come to the

minister's attention.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, obviously there is a

conflict within the Department of Social Services. The Social Assistance

Division has been mandated by Cabinet to discontinue paying hydro bills for

clients who are in arrears, and due to those circumstances there are many, many

children out there today who are left, I will not say freezing, but with the

type of weather we are experiencing, are left very, very cold in very

uncomfortable conditions within their homes.

On the other hand, Mr. Speaker, the Child Welfare Division

has a mandate to make sure children are not placed in such circumstances and may

have to be removed from such an environment. I would like to ask the minister

what would be the most demanding charge, the cost to put children in foster

homes, or the cost of paying hydro bills? Also, would she consider the emotional

charge that might occur as a result of this, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, the only emotional charge is from

people like the hon. member across the House who is setting fear into the hearts

of people out there. That is what he is doing. He is doing just political

posturing here. To date not one single person has been cut off to my knowledge.

AN HON. MEMBER: There have been two in my district.

MS. YOUNG: Two in your district? The thing about it is

that children are not removed from homes because they have no electricity. What

happened when the power was gone for just about a week in some areas of this

Province? Not one home had their children taken into protection.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS. YOUNG: Let me continue. You asked me a question. Do

you want an answer or not?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford -

Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the

Minister of Education and Training. On February 10 the Board of Regents at the

University announced they had reached an agreement with the City of St. John's

relative to the transfer of the Canada Games Park, including the Aquarena from

the City to the University. I noticed in the news the other day that the deal

has still not been ratified by the government, so I am wondering if the minister

could tell us how much this is going to cost the University, and is the

operational money provided for in the University's budget for this year?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education and

Training.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, as hon. members know before the

University can make a capital acquisition the University has to have permission

from the government of this Province. It is my understanding that the University

and the City have reached a tentative deal. The University has submitted that

deal to my office and we are going to discuss it now as a government in due

course.

I do not want to go into any details beyond that at this time

with the hon. member until I have had an opportunity to discuss it with the

Cabinet. However, I would like the hon. member to tell us whether or not he

recommends we do that? I can tell him that the Student Council at MUN have

recommended that we do it, and some other people have recommended that we do

not, so I would be quite happy if the hon. member would tell us where the

Opposition stands on this issue. It could certainly help government as we deal

with this matter.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Waterford - Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the City of St. John's has an

operating deficit of approximately $900,000 on the operations of this facility.

I ask the minister, does his ministry plan to subsidize the University so that

it can operate the facility without having to transfer these operational costs

onto the students of the University?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education and

Training.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I take that to mean that the

hon. member's party is advising government not to take over the Aquarena so we

will certainly consider that. As I told the hon. member, Mr. Speaker, we are not

prepared to address the details yet. I think some of the details have been made

public. I think the media has announced that the City of St. John's will be

putting a certain amount of money into the University when that is accepted. The

University has said that they will be able to operate that practically at arms

length from the University and hopefully make it operate on an efficient basis

where it will not be losing money but all of these things have to be worked out

and in due course government will decide whether or not to approve the tentative

deal which has been worked out by the University and the City.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Waterford - Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, my position on the transfer is

contained in the Board of Regents minutes of 1984. Maybe the minister could do

some research and find out what it is.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the University has said that

they will be able to operate it with a deficit of about $600,000. I want the

minister to give an assurance that this deficit will not result in an additional

factor or arguments by the University to increase student tuition fees, which

have been increased by 10 per cent per year for each year that this government

has been in office.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education and

Training.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member can be assured

that when government reviews this issue we will take everything into

consideration. We have the CSU who came forward man fashion and said we

recommend you do it. Now the hon. member is over there in his typical flip-flop

attitude and not telling us just what their position is. Do they recommend we do

it or do they recommend we not do it? I would like for the hon. member to get up

and say what he means instead of waiting to see what we are going to do and then

be against it. I would like for him to tell us whether he is against it first or

foremost rather than wait until we make a decision, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question today is

for the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

Mr. Speaker, Works, Services and Transportation is allocating

$15 million for the improvement and construction of our provincial roads for

1995-96. I would like to ask the minister, when can this House and the people of

this Province learn who the successful tenderers for this years roads

construction are and will we learn of it before the Easter break?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: I doubt very much, Mr. Speaker, if we will

learn of it before the Easter break. Government has not yet made a decision on

where the allocations of the $15 million will be made. When the allocations are

made and when the decisions are made, I will be making an announcement. That may

very well be over the Easter break.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Placentia.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Minister that $15

million that has been allocated for this year has raised a lot of concerns, not

only among the road builders and construction people of this Province but the

general travelling public, they are all concerned. The expenditures this year

are way down. I mean when you turn the tide in your government, coming down

through the years - from up over $50 million now down this year to $15 million.

Concerns are being expressed around this Province. Mr. Speaker, I would like to

know what is to be done to utilize this paltry amount of money this year? What

is the cost going to be to small construction companies? Can we expect

unemployment to rise higher? How is the general public going to be jeopardized

in their travelling modes across this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I can tell the hon. member what

the cost is. I will give it to you in the closest dollars that I can. If I had a

very small percentage of the $500-plus million that we have to pay out in

interest for the mismanagement of seventeen years of Tory government I would be

able to build every

section of road in this Province. The problem as to why we

haven't got the $40 million or $50 million and we are reduced to $15 million is

we are trying to pay for the mistakes that you fellows made for seventeen years

while in power.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Placentia.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like the

minister to answer: What would he do if he had the $820 million a year that

Quebec is getting from a tribe he supported that gave away Churchill Falls?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: I would build a lot of roads.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Further along the

lines of questions by my colleague for Placentia to the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation. The minister has been not altogether shy in the

House over the last little while in indicating that he is less than favourable

to PC districts - more commonly known to the minister as Tory districts. I've

got some constituents of mine in the gallery today. Perhaps they would like to

hear from the minister these sorts of comments. Is the District of Green Bay,

formerly the district of Premier Peckford, to be punished again in the upcoming

provincial roads budget? The people in the district have gravel roads in their

section of Green Bay. Believe it or not, there is gravel road in Green Bay. I

would wonder if the minister is going to give that gravel road favourable

consideration this year.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: There is some gravel road in Green Bay, but

very little. Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege of teaching school in Green Bay

when I was just sixteen years old. I have as much respect for the people of

Green Bay as I do for anybody else in the Province. When we make decisions we

will make them on the basis of need, I can assure you. I can take the hon.

member to the great District of Port de Grave where there is a great need to

build roads.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On probably a less

partisan issue. In Green Bay as well there is some Trans-Canada work slated this

year. The minister already announced it some time ago. It is being done on the

Trans-Canada in the western

section of the district, up near the Baie Verte

junction. We have in Green Bay district on the Trans-Canada two major

intersections. The one at Springdale intersection was rebuilt and is relatively

safe. It was rebuilt during the Peckford years. I would ask the minister why

can't the intersection at South Brook, which is far below standard and very

dangerous, be a priority and that be the Trans-Canada work being done in the

Green Bay area this year?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, one of the biggest problems we

have is the number of demands that come in to the department year after year to

do the work that everybody in their particular area consider a high priority.

What we try to do as a department is spend the money on a priority basis. In the

case of the Roads for Rails Agreement, approximately $50 million is spent each

year. We try to prioritize the need.

The second thing we try to do is spread the work across the

Province so that a reasonable amount of construction can be held from one end of

the Province to the other - not doing it all in one place and showing

favouritism. So it is done on a need basis, it is done on the basis of spreading

it across the Province. If I did that particular area which the hon. member is

talking about today, I would have ten or fifteen or twenty-five or thirty other

people from other areas say: Why don't you do mine? We do it on a priority basis

when the money is available, and in due course everything will be done, Mr.

Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Question period has expired.

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I would like to rule on the question raised by the hon. the

Government House Leader, and that related to a question by the Member for

Kilbride of the current Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. It related

to what occurred when he was formerly the Minister of Employment and Labour

Relations. I said I wanted to check the Beauchesne reference, and there

are two there that I think touch on it. One is on page 126 of the 6th Edition.

It is paragraph (ll), and it says that a question may not, among other things -

and this is (ll) - "seek from an ex-Minister information with regard to

transactions during that person's term of office."

The second reference is the more direct one, and that is the

one referred to by the Government House Leader, paragraph 410.(16) found on page

122, which says that, "Ministers may be questioned only in relation to current

portfolios". So it is clear that the member's question was out of order.

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to table the Actuarial Valuation and Cash Flow

Study of the Members of the House of Assembly (Retiring Allowances) Act as at

December 31, 1994, done by William Mercer Limited, and also the Actuarial

Valuation and Cash Flow Study of the Uniformed Services Pension Plan as at

December 31, 1993, also done by William Mercer Limited.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services.

MS. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I hereby table the Financial and Statistical Report for the

Social Assistance Program of the Department of Social Assistance. This report

covers the fiscal year 1993-'94, and is submitted in accordance with

Section 5

of The Social Assistance Act, 1977.

I hereby table the Financial and Statistical Reports for the

Rehabilitation Services

Section of the Division of Family and Rehabilitative

Services of the Department of Social Services. These reports cover the fiscal

years of 1992-'93, and 1993-'94, and are submitted in accordance with

section 5

of

An Act Respecting The Rehabilitation Of Disabled Persons, 1978.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, would you be good enough,

please, to put the House into Committee of the Whole, under Order 2.(a), which

deals with the Estimates that are debated in Committee of the Whole. We began

that debate on Tuesday, and we will carry it on now.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of

the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of the Whole

MR. CHAIRMAN (Barrett): Order, please!

The Estimates of the Executive Council; shall the estimates

of the Executive Council carry?

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, we are certainly not finished

with this yet. There is too much happening in this Province in the last few days

for us to slip it through, or to let the Government House Leader or anyone else

slip it through, in a matter of a few minutes.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) this budget.

MR. TOBIN: - in the budget, what is happening. We are

talking today, and have been talking the last few days, about children going

around cold in this Province

whereas, at the same time, we have been talking

about expense accounts from the Executive Council. We have been talking about

entertainment, about gardeners, about chauffeurs, about limousines; and now for

the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board to think this is going to slip

through without further debate, I think he is forgetting something. I think the

Minister of Finance and Treasury Board is again forgetting something. How can

this government, I ask again, justify an expenditure in excess of $270,000 for

Purchased Services, I believe, in the Protocol budget.

MR. EFFORD: What?

MR. TOBIN: Almost as much money as you have for roads,

Mr. Chairman. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation has a little

over $7-million-worth of provincial road money left to call in this Province. It

is gone - we are looking at the expenditures of - how can government justify the

increase they have, particularly in the Protocol budget when, at the same time,

they are prepared to cut (inaudible). Last year, the actual expenditure in

Purchased Services for Protocol was $72,000. This year, the government is

looking under Purchased Services for $212,700. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is a lot

of meals, that is a lot of shrimp cocktails.

MR. EFFORD: The dining room is closed.

MR. TOBIN: No, it is not closed. I'm not sure that this

Province wouldn't be better off financially if the dining room were still open,

I say to the minister. I'm telling the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation that the Province would be almost as well off, probably better

off, if the dining room were still open. We have the Minister of Finance and

Treasury Board saying the other day that the Purchased Services under Protocol,

a lot of it is used to pay for entertainment. We have had the Minister of ITT

state the other day that the Premier charges entertainment off to his

department.

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

MR. TOBIN: Yes, he did so. He said if the Premier speaks

on behalf of his department and meets with people, then it is charged off to his

department.

MR. DUMARESQUE: That isn't what he said at all.

MR. TOBIN: It is what he said. We will get Hansard. Can

someone get Hansard on that?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, we will have Hansard on this. I

have it here.

AN HON. MEMBER: Give us the page now, `Glenn'.

MR. TOBIN: I will give you the page.

AN HON. MEMBER: Carried.

MR. TOBIN: No, Mr. Chairman, it is not carried. That's

what is happening. The Premier says it is not happening. I will ask the Premier

to tell me when he - and I said the other day and I will say it again, I agree

that the Premier of this Province has to entertain people, has to take people

out to dinner. There are times that the Premier of this Province has to be

chauffeured around the city. You can't go down to the Newfoundland Hotel where

there is no room to park and be expected to walk for half-a-mile to speak. I

agree with all of that. But what I want to ask up front is where are all of the

expenses of your entertainment covered - in what part of the Budget?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: It is all covered in the expenses in my

office. It is all covered in that. The only thing that is charged out to ITT -

for example, about a month ago they asked me to go to Vancouver, Calgary,

Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal to promote the EDGE legislation. I said okay, I

will do it. It took pretty well a week out of my

schedule but I was prepared to

do it, and I did. That all got charged off in the minister's budget. It didn't

get charged in my office's budget at all. That portion of my travel was covered

in the minister's budget. When I went to Boston and New York to do the same

thing it was also covered in the minister's budget. When I went to Japan and

China earlier in the spring, it was also covered in the minister's budget -

anything I do for that promotion. All of the other travel, all of the

entertainment, everything that I have to do, is all covered under my own budget,

under the Premier's Office.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: There is nowhere else that I know of it

could be covered. It is all covered in my budget.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, it is a good thing the Minister

of ITT ran in to remind the Premier of what he said the other day.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, page 403, on Friday. The Premier

said a few moments ago that it was all charged out to him, then he got up and he

was around the world.

MR. FUREY: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman, while the hon. member is giving

his speech, which is an eloquent address to this Assembly, maybe he can tell us

where Premier Peckford covered off his expenses?

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order.

The hon the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, if there was ever an admission

of guilt it is when you cannot defend yourself and you try to throw up a smoke

screen. If there was ever an admission of guilt by that minister, we have just

seen it. We have seen in technicolour how guilty that minister is. For some

reason that minister tends to have a very strong guilt complex. We asked a

question one day a few years ago about a briefcase, who purchased a briefcase

for a certain number of dollars? That was the question, and the guilty person -

AN HON. MEMBER: Is now walking away.

MR. TOBIN: I am talking about the guilt of the Minister

of Industry, Trade and Technology when he just got up. One day in this House we

asked the question, who purchased a briefcase? The one we knew purchased the

briefcase, the guilty one, never looked at the Premier at all, ever though he

was closer to him than the Minister of ITT, but the ITT reached over and said,

`Premier, I purchased the briefcase.' The only one who answered the question was

the Minister of ITT. He is the one with the conscience.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The same as he is today the only one

with a conscience.

AN HON. MEMBER: The only one with a briefcase, too.

MR. TOBIN: Why, did you sell that one?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: He should, too, because he needs something to

make himself look important. He can't do it on his own. Hopefully, the briefcase

worked.

Mr. Chairman, the Premier of this Province just got up and

admitted that he went across the world, went to Asia, went to the Eastern

Seaboard, went out to Western Canada, and charged it all off to the Department

of ITT, and at the end of the day, the people of this Province, from one end of

the Province to the other, are asking, how much travel does the Minister of ITT

do? How expensive is that minister? Well, half of it is not his fault.

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) bankrupt the Province.

MR. TOBIN: You almost bankrupted one department, anyway.

What department was it that used to subsidize stoves?

Yesterday, in The Evening Telegram we saw a story

which I raised in the House the other evening regarding a situation down in

Burin, where children were going to be separated from their parents because they

were cold, because the lights were disconnected. I know the story, I probably

know more about it than the minister, I say to the Minister of ITT. I know the

entire story.

AN HON. MEMBER: Well, what is the story?

MR. TOBIN: It is that the Department of Social Services

have been instructed to cut the electricity, not to subsidize it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TOBIN: I say to the Minister of ITT, I'll ask the

question, not him.

MR. FUREY: Your are not answering my question: Where did

Premier Peckford hide all his expenses?

MR. TOBIN: He didn't have them, Mr. Chairman - he did not

have the expenses. He wasn't `jet rolling' this Province. Every expense Premier

Peckford had was upfront, it wasn't charged off, I would suggest to the

minister. He wasn't all over the place. He wasn't over in Paris one day and

Brazil, Ireland, all over the world and then bumping into ministers on the way

back.

AN HON. MEMBER: Were you with him in China?

MR. TOBIN: No, Mr. Chairman, I wasn't with him China. I

was never with him in China. I must have had the 'flu. I never knew that Premier

Peckford was in China, I say to the minister. I don't know who was with him.

Mr. Chairman, there was a story in the Evening Telegram

yesterday where a mother confirmed to a Telegram reporter that she was

going to have to separate herself from her children if her lights were

disconnected, yet this department would not move. I understand from reading the

paper today that someone offered an additional $250, someone from outside, Mr.

Chairman. Some compassionate person outside said that if government is going to

pluck children out of the homes, they are going to create in this Province, a

very emotional environment for families. Some person out there, out of the good

of his heart, said he would put up the first $250 to help pay the light bill.

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible) tax return.

MR. TOBIN: I would think so. I certainly would rule out

you, and if I had your money I would pay for the works, I say to the minister.

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Well, give it to me, I will bring it down to

her. How a minister - how millionaires, Mr. Chairman, can sit around that

Cabinet table and make policies to cut the lights, to cut the power from people,

and then make a decision that they will remove the children from their families,

that, Mr. Chairman, is unconscionable, let me say. That is unconscionable and

shows the total lack of compassion for the people in charge of these

departments. I don't believe for one minute that the Minister of Social Services

came in and voluntarily gave up to the Cabinet that amount of money. As a matter

of fact, I'd bet my life she didn't, that she fought and tried to get more money

for the department. I can tell you right now, since I raised that the other

evening in debate, that I have gotten calls from other districts in this

Province, from other parts of this Province regarding it. There are some people

sitting in this House now whose district I have received calls from, I say to

members opposite.

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Say it yourself, `Chuck'.

MR. FUREY: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: How we can allow people in this Province -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. TOBIN: By leave.

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member doesn't have leave.

MR. TOBIN: I will be back, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Green Bay.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It was nice to note in Question Period today that my new pew

mate from the Pentecostal Church in Port de Grave has taken a kinder look at

Green Bay. Hopefully, we will see a little pavement come our way if there is any

on the go this year in what might be a relatively limited provincial roads

budget. He was my pew mate last Sunday at the fishermen's service in Port de

Grave. I know he didn't want that to get out in public but I thought I would put

it on the record of the hon. House of Assembly. It may well be now, Mr.

Chairman, that having so indicated, I may have cost my district some pavement.

AN HON. MEMBER: How much did he put in, a nickel?

MR. HEWLETT: I did not observe the minister's generosity

with regard to the collection plate.

Mr. Chairman, more seriously, it was interesting to note that

I think for the first since I've been elected to this Assembly, in about six

years, I got an official admission from the government side of the House that

not all the roads in Green Bay are paved. When I first sought the PC nomination

for Green Bay back in 1989 and first got elected, obviously, as all people

running, you hoped, you believed at the time, that you would end up on the

government side of the House. I can remember doing an interview with one of the

local media in my district at the time I was running for election, and they

asked me what would be one of the biggest challenges that I would face. Working

on the assumption that I would end up on the government side, I indicated that

convincing my colleagues in government that Green Bay still needed public works

expenditures in the way of roadwork, pavement, water and sewer, that sort of

thing, would be a tall order in that the Premier had been the former member for

the district before me.

Needless to say, to my disappointment, I ended up in

Opposition after the election in 1989, and the concern that I had about

convincing my government colleagues about the need for public works expenditures

in Green Bay doubled, tripled, quadrupled, if anything, in dealing with the

Liberal Government. The Liberal Government, I guess,having smarted under Brian

Peckford for a good many years while he was Premier, I think did have a tendency

to hold somewhat of a grudge against my particular district when the time came

to share up monies for roads, water and sewer, that sort of thing.

I've asked a number of ministers over the years as to whether

or not, especially roadwork, would be done in my district. Generally speaking,

the replies have always been flippant, always been negative, and always been to

the effect that you really don't need anything in Green Bay, that, in essence,

your streets are paved with gold.

The first pavement in Green Bay occurred back in the 1960s

when Premier Smallwood was in power. The road from the Trans-Canada into the

town of Springdale and the main street through Springdale was paved I guess when

I was a teenager. For a long time that was the only pavement in the entire Green

Bay district. As the Liberal years waned in the early 1970s, and in that period

when we had two fast elections, when Mr. Smallwood went down and Mr. Moores came

up, there was a desperate shuffle in Green Bay. Premier Smallwood's son, William

Smallwood, was dumped from the Liberal roster as the Liberal candidate. Harold

Starkes from Lewisporte way was trotted out as the Liberal candidate. At that

time, desperation really showed its ugly head in Green Bay because the Liberal

Party of the day, desperately trying to cling on to power, actually gave some

extra pavement to Green Bay other than what had already transpired in Springdale

some years earlier. That was the method by which the town of King's Point got

its pavement. Up until then, I mean, that was the only other pavement in Green

Bay.

When Mr. Peckford got elected and ended up on the government

side under the leadership of Frank Moores, our district started to get some of

the facilities that many of the districts - even rural districts, on the Avalon

Peninsula - had taken for granted, really, since Confederation. When 1972 came,

Green Bay basically entered the 20th Century. We started to get some road work,

we started to get decent water systems, we started to get sewer systems for the

first time ever, with the exception of Springdale, which was a relatively large

town by rural standards, and for the most part had financed its own way, and

installed a water and sewer system a good many years ago by pick and shovel,

basically under its own steam. Up until then, outside of Springdale, with the

exception of a little bit of pavement in King's Point, absolutely nothing had

been done.

Great progress was made during the Peckford years, Mr.

Speaker, but as I said, Mr. Peckford basically had to start from scratch. Very

little had been done. The existing gravel roads all had to be completely

rebuilt, and then started the task of paving them. The number of years he spent

- I believe seventeen years - as MHA for Green Bay, and during that time, even

with ten of those years as Premier, he didn't get a chance to pave all of the

roads in Green Bay; all of the communities did not get water and sewer, and some

communities didn't get various recreation facilities, et cetera, so there was

still much to be done in the District of Green Bay when I first got elected in

As I indicated earlier, I expected trouble if I ended up on

the government side, getting money from the government, and I really found out

what trouble was when I ended up on the Opposition side, trying to get money

from government for the District of Green Bay.

I can only assume that Green Bay was especially singled out,

because in the early years of my first term Premier Wells was making much to-do

about this fairness and balance scheme of his, and a number of my colleagues in

opposition were getting some road and water and sewer work when the annual

budgets for each department were announced, and consistently Green Bay was

underfunded.

We did better in the water and sewer department than we did

in the roads, but in the roads department it has been absolutely pathetic. In

the six years since I have been elected, not one, single, shovel full of

pavement has gone into Green Bay - not one shovel full. We have pavement now

that is fifteen years old and falling apart, and we have gravel roads that have

never seen pavement. All I can get out of the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation are lovely platitudes and assurances when his microphone is

turned on and when there are Green Bay people in the gallery, but once his

microphone is off and the usual banter of the House is ongoing we get the usual

comments about `never in a Tory district', and `especially not in your

district'. I remember the day when Brian Peckford wouldn't give me an artesian

well for Makinsons, and Green Bay will suffer forever and a day because

Makinsons didn't get its artesian well from Brian Peckford.

Mr. Chairman, that is the reality that we are still faced

with, and I am duty bound, as the member, to bring this forward. This is a

Budget debate, and it is often a debate used by MHAs to bring forward concerns

relating to their district, and seeing people from my district in the gallery

today sparked me to ask the minister that question, and to raise it here again.

It is an ongoing subject. There will be new water and sewer monies, albeit very

small I am told, and road monies, very small, allocated again this year, and I

would be remiss if I didn't put forward Green Bay's case again, and the fact

that Green Bay, I think, has been hard done by - especially in the roads

department - since the Wells government came to power, and it is about time that

the Wells government make up for those wrongs and give a rural district a

chance.

Green Bay should not be punished for having elected Brian

Peckford as it's member. Mr. Peckford served ten years as Premier, and for any

district of the Province, I think, it generally is considered to be an honour if

the First Minister of the Province is your member. Unfortunately for Green Bay,

since the First Minister has resigned, that has not proven to be so at all. I

don't remember any district, when we were in power, that we singled out because

former Premier Smallwood had once served in it and therefore that particular

district had to somehow be punished. For some reason, Green Bay has gotten that

end of the stick, and that is not good enough.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I just have a few words here to continue with the debate. I

am trying to do two things at the one time here now. It is bad enough when I am

trying to do one thing at one time.

I just want to carry on the debate that was taken up by my

colleague from Burin - Placentia West, and now my colleague from Green Bay.

Basically today we are debating the Estimates of the Executive Council, and

there is some very interesting information here under the Estimates of the

Executive Council, and a lot of them were alluded to on the last day and again

today.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: There he goes. I didn't think it would

be too long before old turbot jaws himself would be going over there, the man

who supports the Spaniards observing the Spaniards.

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The man who supports the Spaniards

observing the Spanish overfishing. That is what the Member for Eagle River

supports now, but I do not know what that has to do with the Executive Council.

I do not know if the member is speaking up because he expects the provincial

government will be requested to allocate some money out of the Estimates of the

Executive Council for the Spanish overfishing.

Now, that would not surprise me. I say that is the next

recommendation that will come from the provincial government, that they will

offer to pay the Spaniards to observe the Spaniards. I do not know what the

Minister of Fisheries thinks about that. It would be quite interesting to hear

him say something on this topic one of these days. One of those days before all

the turbot are gone it would be interesting to hear the Minister of Fisheries

tell us what he really thinks of this situation. He nods his head but he does

not get up.

Does the minister agree with the Province cost-sharing the

cost of the Spanish observing the Spanish, the British observing the British,

and the Canadians observing the Canadians? Is the Minister of Fisheries

concerned about that, I ask? Is he concerned about it?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Good. I am glad he is. The Member for

Eagle River is not concerned about it.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Why is that?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: You are not concerned about the Spanish

observing the Spanish while you are going through your travel claims over there?

Is the Member for Eagle River looking to see how much money from last year's

Estimates he has there in his travel claims? The most expensive member in the

House of Assembly, the Member for Eagle River.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I will show you my expenses.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: You will not show me your expenses

because I know them on a weekly basis. As a member of the Internal Economy

Commission I asked for a weekly update on the Member for Eagle River. I want to

know what he spends and where he spends it. I want to know where he rents his

cars. I want to know how often he goes to Ottawa. I want the Minister of Finance

to tell me if all those trips to Ottawa by the Member for Eagle River are

included in the Estimates of the Executive Council. I want the Minister of

Finance to answer before we give approval.

He is up in Ottawa every second week, up in the House of

Commons looking down on his buddies, gloating, waving and smiling. It is

unbelievable. He has looked at Bill Rompkey's seat that often now that poor old

Bill Rompkey, when he hears he is going to Ottawa, does not sit in the seat. He

makes sure he is gone somewhere else.

I never saw a person so gleeful and so happy when he sits in

the gallery of the House of Commons as the Member for Eagle River. I could not

believe it when I went up there a couple of years ago and looked across at the

gallery and saw him there. He was lit up like a Christmas tree because he was so

happy to be up there where he wants to be.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Not true.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Imagine how much he enjoys being up

there now since Tobin went to New York with the net, since they arrested the

Estai and have now offered to forego the fine, don't take the bond from them.

They only overfished. They only took the juvenile turbot. They just broke the

legislation. They cost us a couple of million dollars, I suppose, to arrest and

get them in, but we do not want that $500,000 bond. We are going to give that

back to them.

Imagine how happy he is now when he sits in the House of

Commons and looks at his buddy Brian. How much did it cost to get the net down

to New York? I would like to know how much it cost the Province in the Estimates

of the Executive Council for the Premier to get the cabbie or the limousine down

to the dock in New York so that he could be behind Brian Tobin waving so that

the cameras would at least pick him up once?

Me, too, Ray Guy said, me, too. Boutros Boutros-Ghali and

Clyde Clyde, he called him last night, the two of them together. Seriously, how

much of that is from the Premier's office, how much did the Premier spend to get

on the dock in New York?

MR. DUMARESQUE: He should be the first observer on the

Spanish boat, Ray Guy.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Ah, see? You are agreeing with me know.

So it would be rough for Ray Guy to be observer on the Spanish vessels, would

it? Would it be rough? Why would it be rough?

MR. DUMARESQUE: It wouldn't exactly be a picnic for

whoever goes (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Exactly, I say to the Member for Eagle

River.

AN HON. MEMBER: Because they are pirates!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: They are pirates. If they are pirates,

what's the point of putting another pirate on with them to observe them, I ask

the member. What is the point of putting a pirate in charge of observing the

pirates?

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: What a difference an election makes,

what a difference a change of government makes. They can do no wrong up there

now.

MR. DUMARESQUE: What a difference an election makes. More

buffalo on Brunette Island than there are Tories (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Almost. But there is supposed to be one

over there, I say to the member. There is supposed to be one buffalo over there

but no one has found it lately. I was over there for a couple of nights the

summer, I tell the member. I was over there I say to the Member for a couple of

nights this summer, to the come home year reunion over there. Went over for one

night and enjoyed myself that much I stayed two. What a time. The member should

have come over with me.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I wouldn't mind going over.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I go up now to Ottawa to see the

endangered species in the House of Commons.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: You would have seen a lot of endangered

species out there. The buffalo. The Arctic hare is not endangered. Caribou

everywhere.

MR. DUMARESQUE: When are you having the national

convention for the Tory Party?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: They can't get a place big enough, I say

to the Member for Eagle River. There is not a place big enough.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Is it true you are having the same

(inaudible)?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: That was the problem with their

scheduling, not ours. Yes, it is on the same weekend. That doesn't matter.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No. Any time I go to Ottawa I tell you

it is - I was going to say, for more important things than that.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Who are you talking about? What are you

insinuating? That you are friends or something with the candidate's brother?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes. Have you spent time together lately

somewhere? Is that what the minister is trying to tell me? It wasn't paid for

out of the Executive Council Estimates, I hope. Being a member of the Executive

Council. This debate has to be relevant, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I don't know, I say to the minister, if

my salary as House Leader is in the Executive Council Estimates or not. I'm not

sure. All I would say is I don't know if there is going to be any need for them

to be, for me, but for whoever else who succeeds me there will be, of course.

That is if they pay them the same as they are paying me. I don't know where they

are going to find anyone that good.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No I don't know the rules, I say, I

don't them well enough, but I knew today the Government House Leader was right

when he rose, of course. He was right, and I knew that, and I knew the way that

the Speaker was going to rule on that. I had no doubt in my mind, I knew that.

But you couldn't blame the member for asking the questions, because we had

information which implicated the former minister, and he is now confessing to

the Member for Kilbride that indeed he did know about what he asked him. Since

the Government House Leader bullied him and wouldn't let him answer the question

he said: I had to come over and tell you myself the answer, and yes, I did know

about it, yes, I did discuss it with a commissioner.

I don't know again, Mr. Chairman - it is time to be relevant

- if that is where this double billing money is coming from, the Executive

Council estimates.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: By leave?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave!

MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I don't know if that is where the double

billing money comes from for Mr. Gullage - from the Executive Council Estimates.

We can't find out who authorized this. So maybe that is where it is covered up.

If it is in here I would suggest that the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board

authorized it. If it is in these Executive Council Estimates, I say to the

Minister of Finance and Treasury Board who is pretending he is not listening.

Who is pretending he is listening to the Member for St. John's East, which I

know he is not. He wouldn't. But then, there is a bit of a socialist background

there with the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board. He ran as an NDPer one

time, I believe.

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you on leave now?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Sorry?

AN HON. MEMBER: Are you going by leave?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I'm on leave now, yes, I say to my good

friend, my very good friend for Eagle River. I'm up on leave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, he ran for the NDP. Yes.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Yes, if I don't be nice you will

withdraw leave.

Just a couple of question that I want to ask, I don't know -

no one listens to me and this I can't understand. I don't know why everyone is

not listening to me. I am starting to get annoyed. I am soon going to get in the

same way as my colleague from Burin - Placentia West gets, then everyone listens

to him. I was looking in the offshore - Newfoundland Information Service, by the

way, perhaps someone can explain this to me, why is there such an increase in

the amount of money being voted to the Newfoundland Information Service? I say

to the Government House Leader, the Minister of Finance is pretending he is

ignoring me and he is pretending he is listening to the Member for St. John's

East, he is doing neither.

MR. ROBERTS: Actually he has turned off his hearing aid.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I know, that's what worries me.

MR. ROBERTS: He is listening to the (inaudible) speech of

Lynn Verge, a very important speech.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Is there someone who is going to answer

this? Let me say this, Offshore Fund - Administration, the Minister of Finance -

he just goes out, he just walks out.

MR. ROBERTS: Well look behind you, there is nobody here.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I am glad there is no one behind me -

yes, I am glad. I feel more comfortable when there is no one behind me, I say to

the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: I understand the feeling.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: You understand the feeling. You have

been through it many times. You don't feel very secure.

MR. ROBERTS: Oh I feel very secure.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: When they are gone. When they are not

there.

MR. ROBERTS: What do you want to know?

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Two things; 2.3.07, Newfoundland

Information Service, there is an increase there of $118,000 in total. I am just

wondering why that would be? The other one is, 2.3.08, from what was spent last

year, $3,031,000 under total Cabinet Secretariat $3.8 million this year. That is

a fair increase. I am just wondering if perhaps you could explain why the

increase in two of those allocations?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Let me take them one at a time, Mr.

Chairman. I don't have the salary details book in front of me but I would

suspect 2.3.07, the Information Service - the committee will note that last year

we budgeted $391,100 and we actually spent $285,800 and this year we are asking

for permission to spend $388,800. Perhaps we can find out in the next few

minutes but I suggest what happened is we under-recruited last year because we

have vacant positions that have not been filled and we are asking for authority

to spend the money in the event we are able to fill them this year. I don't

think we have created any new positions in the Information Service. My friend

from Grand Bank will recall that when this government took office in '89 there

was a major change made in the way in which public relations and public

information personnel were hired. So I would suggest to him that is the answer.

We are not asking - in fact, we are asking this year for less than we asked for

and were granted last year but it is more than we spent, my hon. friend is quite

correct.

I think he also spoke of the total of Treasury Board

Secretariat, I notice it is about - last year we asked for $10,462,000. Yes,

that was the budget, $10,462,000 - I am on page 23 of the printed estimates.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: We actually spent $13.3 million and this

year we are asking for $10,618,000. So it is an increase of about $150,000 in

all. Now I don't know if that answers his questions or not. We are not asking

for a $3 million increase. In fact, we propose to spend less this year, under

this heading, then we spent last year even though we are asking for a little

more then we asked for last year. Now I can go through it with my friend and

point out the areas where we actually spent more then we budgeted last year. For

example, 2.4.03, there was some discussion in the committee the other day about

this, last year under that subhead we asked for $1.45 million - this is page 19

of the printed estimates - and we actually spent $2,027,000. This year, we are

asking for $449,800; and an explanation was given the other day. That is a large

item in there, the NLCS privatization and the Hydro privatization lawyers and

consultants fees. So overall we are asking, under the Executive Council head,

for considerably less than we actually spent last year. That is, I think, the

answer to the hon. gentleman's question as I have it, but if not, I will yield

and it will be his turn again.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the minister for the explanation. That satisfies me.

It is just that when you notice some of these things you would like to have an

explanation for them.

Just going back to Newfoundland Information Services, the

minister, when he said there have been changes, is certainly correct. I say to

him, it would be quite interesting to do a total cost analysis now on what it

was before and what it is now.

MR. ROBERTS: It is probably still a great deal less.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The minister, of course, keeps saying

that. It is like the Premier keeps bragging about the decrease in cost for the

Premier's office in travel. Then we find out - I really thought, when the

Premier was jogging all over the world, that it was being paid for by the

Premier's Office - we find out now it is being paid out of the Minister of

Industry, Trade and Technology's vote. So when you put it all together, I would

suggest, with the Premier being out of the Province for what was it,

eighty-eight days last year - eighty-eight days or something he was gone - that

must be quite a substantial bill.

I remember being in government with Brian Peckford, when he

used to get knocked for the travelling he did, and how expensive he was, and all

of this stuff. I guess the only thing I have to say is, it seems this government

has been a little better at covering it up somehow, a little better at hiding it

away. We really can't get at what the total figure is. You can't knock him for

that. I can't knock him for doing that, but we would like to see the total

figures on the Premier's travel and entertainment in total, which we can't get.

The public relations team, I ask the Government House Leader,

or whatever you have in place, are they all under Newfoundland Information

Services? That is a different entity altogether, is it?

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) public relations.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, there is a public relations team.

I see some of them around all the time. Some of them I know personally, and I

know they are good people, and friends. I talk to them often and say hello. I

have known them for years before they became attached to this, or even before I

came to where I am. The point is, where are they found in the Estimates? Are

they under Newfoundland Information Services, or are they two separate entities?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: The salaries of the Newfoundland Information

Service public information officers are found in 2.3.07, the head we are talking

of, but there are public information officers attached to specific departments

whose salary is paid out, and it will be found in the - for example -

MR. W. MATTHEWS: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: Okay, there is no - I mean, I am not trying

to hide anything. The person who works with the Minister of Justice and the

President of Treasury Board is Mr. John Downton, who is an extremely capable

person. He works for Newfoundland Information Services, and I assume the amount

we are seeking here includes provision for his salary.

The man named Mr. Carl Cooper works with the Department of

Education and Training, and his salary would be found charged against the

Education Department estimates. If we look up the salary details, we will find

it, and there will be a corresponding item in the Estimates themselves.

I don't know if the Committee wants to go on at any length

about this public information officer, but I would be happy to, if they wish. My

understanding is that we made two changes when we came in, and when I say `we' I

am including or speaking of my predecessors. I wasn't a member of the Ministry

in 1989; I joined a little later, as the Committee recalls. The first was to

start a central pool, and initially, all officers were attached there. There

were eight or nine or ten or eleven, whatever there were. I don't know how many

there were, but that is a matter of record. They were then assigned to work with

departments, but as individual ministers, and at more than one point individual

deputy ministers, realized there was not only a need but a need for more than

they could get, individual officers were attached, and have been attached, to

individual departments. Is my hon. friend... am I making any sense? Okay. So

there is this diverse approach.

The other change we made, I suggest, was even more important.

Previously, I believe, it was the practice to have these officers attached to

individual ministers' offices, and they reported to the minister and were

called, I believe, press secretaries. I don't fault that - that is what was -

but we have taken a very different approach. The officials are attached to the

department and report to the deputy ministers, not to the ministers' offices.

Now, they work with the minister, but they are public servants and they work -

they aren't contractual.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: Carl Cooper reports to the Deputy Minister,

Dr. Len Williams. We have two Dr. Williams as deputies. Dr. Len Williams works

with the minister, of course. A Mr. Downton reports in his Justice position to

Mrs. Spracklin, the Deputy Minister of Justice, but he certainly works with me

if it is a Justice matter, or the Premier, given the situation. For example, Mr.

Downton drafted the very fine Ministerial Statement made here the other day by

my friend, the Member for Gander, in his capacity as the acting Minister of

Justice.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: I don't know if it was long or short. It

said what needed to be said and no more. That was the one on the signing of the

agreement with the Innu people in Davis Inlet.

So that is where they are. The votes appear in two places

depending on the nature of the position. But they are all there.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I

just wonder if the minister could inform the House how many, say, departmental

public relations people are there? Every department doesn't have one, do they?

Would you enlighten the House on how many of them there actually are, in

addition to the others? How many are similar to - and I don't want to keep

mentioning Mr. Cooper's name, but he is the one I know about most. How many

departments have public information officers or whatever they are now?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, every ministry, every

department - and I said ministry, not minister - every ministry has a public

information officer available to it. Some are stationed in the NIS under the

vote we are talking of, others are attached. Let me see if I can - most of my

colleagues are conspicuous by their absence, at this stage, but I know that

Education and Training has a person. `Roger', maybe you can help me. Do you have

a person, a full-time public information officer in Tourism, Culture and

Recreation?

MR. GRIMES: In our department? Yes.

MR. ROBERTS: Finance and Treasury Board does not, Justice

does not, Executive Council does not.

AN HON. MEMBER: Natural Resources has nobody.

MR. ROBERTS: Natural Resources does not.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. ROBERTS: I'm sorry? I don't think Environment does.

Works, Services and Transportation does, and I know my friend, the Member for

Grand Bank would agree that the Department of Works, Services and Transportation

needs all the public information help it can get. I don't think Social Services

does. Municipal and Provincial Affairs, I believe, does.

AN HON. MEMBER: Health doesn't.

MR. ROBERTS: Health does not. Industry, Trade and

Technology does. I don't know if I've covered all the departments, but as my

friend, the Member for Grand Bank can see, they are very - it depends

essentially on the information needs of the department. And I will be candid

with him, we have added one or two in the last year or so because - for example,

originally Mr. Cooper worked with the Department of Justice and with the

Department of Education. And as we moved into the Williams Royal Commission and

all the work that comes from that, the need was identified to have him working

full-time in educational informational matters, so he was moved full-time over

there - that is where his salary would appear now. Mr. Doody was assigned to

work with the Justice portfolio.

I think I've named all of the departments but if I haven't -

I don't think Fisheries, Food and Agriculture has a person. No, they do. Miss

Cheeseman, has been there for some years, Josephine Cheeseman. I think I've

named all the departments but if I haven't the hon. gentleman can prod me and I

will try to recall.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for St. John's East

Extern.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to

take this opportunity to say a few words on the Budget for this year, and a few

other odds and ends that have been ongoing.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I can't hear the hon.

gentleman.

MR. J. BYRNE: I say, listen harder.

MR. ROBERTS: I am listening hard but I still can't hear

him.

MR. J. BYRNE: There must be something wrong with the

system.

MR. ROBERTS: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: There must be something wrong with the

system.

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the hon. gentleman's voice system.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, could very well be.

MR. ROBERTS: Try it a little bit louder, `Jack', you

might say something that's good to hear.

MR. J. BYRNE: I won't say a lot that I want you to hear

anyway, to be honest with you.

Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Committee meetings. This

past week I've attended five of the meetings. The Employment and Labour

Relations Committee meeting, Environment, Works, Services and Transportation.

Some of the ministers are much more apt to answer questions than other

ministers. Take, for example, the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation. Asking him a question on anything with respect to Tory districts

and the only answer you will get from that minister is: You are a Tory district,

not a cent, not a rock - all going in Liberal districts.

The Minister of Environment is taking his job very seriously.

You can ask him some questions and he does his best to answer the questions and

if not, gets you the answers as soon as possible afterwards.

Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology

- I have not attended any of his meetings yet to ask him any questions in

particular to the committees but not long ago in the House I was a bit

disappointed - actually not in the House, there last fall after the EDGE

legislation was announced and at the time I certainly supported the EDGE

legislation. I thought it was good legislation. Shortly after that the minister

was on TV talking about two new companies coming into the Province that would -

basically I think they put it on TV that there would be no provincial monies

going to these two new companies. I think the words were: There will be none,

nil, not one iota of provincial dollars going to these two new companies.

Basically afterwards it was -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, it may not have been none, nil, not

an iota. Maybe not an iota, none, nil or whatever but there was one - I saw it,

I heard it with my own two ears - he said: No money, none, not an iota from the

provincial government. It ended up being $1.6 million, I think it was, for the

two companies, in that general area. Is that right, $1.6 million?

AN HON. MEMBER: That is nothing to him you see.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is nothing. I suppose it is nothing to

the minister but a lot of money to me. I would not mind having it in my bank

account.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Probably so.

Anyway with respect to the EDGE legislation, again it may be

good in the long haul but at this point in time all I have seen happen is that

the companies are replacing jobs basically because this government has had an

abysmal record of destroying jobs in this Province, Mr. Chairman. The EDGE

legislation so far has not nearly replaced one-tenth of the jobs that have been

lost since this government has taken over but maybe in due course it may help

out somewhat within the Province.

The President of Treasury Board loves to get up and talk

about Sprung. Now that is a word that a lot of people don't like to hear, on

this side I would imagine, but the majority of people on this side of the House,

Mr. Chairman, had nothing to do with Sprung. They were not around in the House

of Assembly when Sprung was approved and put forward by the previous

administration but, Mr. Chairman, there was $23 million spent on Sprung, as far

as I know, somewhere in the general area of $23 million but I have to compliment

the previous government, at least -

MR. TOBIN: Stop saying bad words.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know you don't want to hear it but at

least what they did, they created 300 jobs for two years. Now what do we have

here -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, 200 to 300 jobs for two years. Yes,

Mr. Chairman, that is what happened. Now what has this government done since it

came into power? Only cut, cut, cut and take care of their Liberal districts as

the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation so proudly announces all the

time.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, get a better one. That is no problem.

Like yourself, I will get you to write a few for me, how is that? I will get you

to write a few for me.

MR. ROBERTS: It would be better than the one (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, sure they would, no doubt. As long as

the President of Treasury Board believes that, that is fine but then again - and

the President of Treasury Board always loves to bring up the situation with

Sprung and how much money we could -

MR. ROBERTS: Sprung springs to mind.

MR. J. BYRNE: Good, that's not bad. Now I say to the

President of Treasury Board he will be up again this evening at 4:55 p.m. and

before he sits down he will have his opportunity to insult someone else. That is

his forte.

Anyway I would like to bring up the situation with Churchill

Falls. The Minister of Works, Services and Transportation talks about - he has

$15 million this year, $15 million to put into the roads in this Province. We

have the Department of Social Services cut $10 million. We have $10 million

going into the Strategic Economic Plan which is a complete waste of money.

AN HON. MEMBER: What is going on?

MR. J. BYRNE: What is going on? I don't know what is

going on but if we could get back, somehow or other, the $800 million that we

are losing every year, going down the drain or down the river or maybe up the

river to Quebec, $800 million. Do you know what we could do with this in this

Province?

MR. CHAIRMAN: On a point of order, the hon. the Minister

of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, just a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The

hon. member opposite is one of several members opposite who keep referring to

the Churchill Falls deal as if they had nothing to do with it. The people who

sat in the Legislature representing the Progressive Conservative Party of

Newfoundland and Labrador voted for the Churchill Falls deal, every single one

of them. Every single member in the House voted for that deal, so he now sits

with members of the party that supports that arrangement.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It may be a good point but it is not a

point of order.

The hon. the Member for St. John's East Extern.

MR. J. BYRNE: I expected that argument to come forward,

Mr. Chairman, with respect to Churchill Falls when I brought it up, but I say to

that, that the government on that side of the House, the Liberal government at

the time, brought it forward, pushed it, and convinced people, or whatever have

you. The Liberal government of the day had the majority in the House of

Assembly, it would have been carried anyway I say to the Minister of Tourism,

Culture and Recreation.

That is what would have happened anyway and this side of the

House had no bearing on it whatsoever. It is like the government at this point

in time trying to bring Hydro through. If they had the guts to bring it through

the House, only for the backbenchers, the caucus over there, the back caucus put

a stop to it. If they had to bring it through the people on this side would not

have voted in favour of it but over there they would have. They would have been

told to vote for it and they would have voted for it.

Mr. Chairman, there are three caucuses on that side of the

House from my perspective. Of course we have the Cabinet caucus who believe they

are running the show on that side of the House, but they got a lesson in

democracy last fall when the private members' revolt happened and put a stop to

the Hydro deal. They put a stop to the importation of garbage into the Province

when they put the pressure on the Premier because he is the man who makes the

decisions on that side of the House.

He was out of the Province and when he came back the private

members over there, the private members of caucus put the pressure on the

Premier to back off on the importation of garbage into the Province. Also, you

have the fabulous four that I refer to, the Member for Fogo, the Member for

Twillingate, the Member for St. John's Centre, and the Member for Windsor -

Buchans, who all of a sudden, when they were removed from Cabinet, got the

courage to speak up and speak out against the Premier.

There is only one member at this point in time of the

fabulous four who is still continuing to do that, of course, and that is the

Member for Twillingate who I believe yesterday voted in favour of the resolution

put forward by the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes. Some of the people on that

side, Mr. Chairman, had signed the petition from the Member for Twillingate last

fall to form one department for fisheries, but they decided for whatever reason

not to go ahead and support the resolution brought forward by the Member for St.

Mary's - The Capes.

Again, with respect to the Budget brought down this year, a

balanced Budget. If you do not spend any money and only take money in in

revenues and taxes, it is not too much trouble to balance the Budget. We see the

cuts, as I mentioned earlier, in social services, highways, municipal affairs,

and the environment. Every estimate you go through there are cuts, cuts, and

more cuts. Now, the previous Minister of Environment and Lands is sitting here

next to us and at this point in time she agrees there are too many cuts going on

in this government, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder what the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation would do with $30 million if he had it? Basically, that is what

it is going to cost the people of this Province for the Trans City fiasco. We

have four members of Cabinet on a committee who decide to basically give their

buddies a lot of money for no particular purpose, only as a payback, I suppose,

for helping to finance the Premier's salary a few years ago when he took over as

Leader of the Opposition.

There was $30 million, plus $3 million that is now in the

courts. Judge Orsborn has basically awarded $3 million be paid to the contractor

who should have received the contract. Now, this all goes on and on and it is

going to cost the taxpayers of this Province a lot of money in the long haul,

and it is also the buy back. If I understand it correctly the government now is

prepared to pay 60 per cent of the fair market value of the buildings at that

point in time, those three buildings.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. J. BYRNE: By leave, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member has leave, I guess?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I say to the Minister of ITT that if he

would sit back sometime and listen to the people speaking on this side of the

House who speak with all sincerity, he might learn a thing or two about where

the money should be spent in this Province, and not be giving it out to his

buddies.

Basically the government now has agreed, under their new

contract - and this wasn't a part of the contract when it was first awarded -

the hospitals would be bought back after twenty or thirty years, I am not sure

which, for $1, but the government decided that wasn't good enough for their

buddies so they decided to give them 60 per cent of the fair market value at

that point in time, more millions of dollars that the minister -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: For the buy back of the hospitals, the

buildings themselves, after the contract is up, the lease buy back.

Mr. Chairman, the people of this Province will receive

nothing from that buy back only buildings that they have paid for during the

lease.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, I have some nice questions for the

Minister of Environment in due course, let me tell you. I have been taking it

fairly easy on him up this point in time because the Minister of Environment

seems to be a very dedicated minister, more so than some of the other ministers

over there. He takes his job quite seriously. I am half afraid, though, that the

Minister of Environment is going to get ulcers over there from working that

department. You can see, when you ask him questions at the committee meetings,

his face becomes very wrinkled. He is very determined but very concerned, so I

would say to the Minister of Environment that he should not take it so

seriously, and join the majority of the ministers on that side of the House who

don't take their jobs too seriously.

AN HON. MEMBER: Jack, what page are you on?

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 52, copious notes.

AN HON. MEMBER: Not copasetic.

MR. J. BYRNE: Not copasetic, no.

The Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, at the

committee meeting hearing the other night, I asked him a number of questions,

and the minister was very vague, also, in his answers.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Chairman, who has the floor here,

myself or the President of Treasury Board?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Or the Government House Leader, I mean. It

is hard to keep a handle on the Government House Leader. You don't know if he is

acting Premier, or acting Finance Minister, or acting Minister of Justice, or

half Minister of Justice, or whatever, so it is hard to keep a handle on the

Government House Leader.

Back to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. A

few nights ago we were asking the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs

certain questions with respect to his department, and he loves to be very vague.

He is another minister who is very biased when it comes to Liberal districts, I

believe. He is now talking about regional government, and he doesn't like the

word `government' - regional government - he would prefer to have the words

`regional councils'. I believe that possibly regional councils throughout the

Province may be beneficial to the people living in certain towns, in particular

when you come to certain services such as, maybe, waste disposal, water and

sewer, what have you.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: I would say now that the Government House

Leader should go back to sleep. He often pretends that he is sleeping over

there, but he has a keen ear.

MR. ROBERTS: I am staying awake in the hope that the hon.

gentleman will say something worthwhile.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would prefer for you to go to sleep.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. J. BYRNE: The regional council ideas can be very

beneficial to the people living in certain towns within the Province. It would

all depend upon the approach that government takes. Again, the approach the

government took with respect to amalgamation was the heavy hand, do it or it is

going to be done to you. That is something that is still on the agenda. That is

still on the government's agenda, the amalgamation.

AN HON. MEMBER: What? Amalgamation?

MR. J. BYRNE: It is still on the government's agenda, I

would say. What do the Cabinet Ministers talk about when they are sitting around

the Cabinet if the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology doesn't know that

regional government is still on the agenda of this government? You talk to the

Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and it is number one on his list.

That is the be-all and end-all of the Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs. It is the answer to all of his problems. Sit back and talk to him.

Now, I am going to try to give the minister a bit of advice,

although he is not here. Maybe he will pick up this and read it. I remember

giving the former Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs advice, the man

who is in the media a lot these days. What is his name? Eric Gullage, that is

the guy. I remember sitting down and talking to him about amalgamation when I

was Mayor of Logy Bay - Middle Cove - Outer Cove. One morning, 7:30 a.m. this

happened. We had a meeting on a certain matter. He is the one who brought it up.

I gave him some good advice on how to accomplish his goals with respect to

amalgamation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. J. BYRNE: But no, no, listen. He wanted to do what he

wanted to do and use the heavy hand and force it. If he had listened and paid

attention - and I'm not going to give the present Minister of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs the same advice because there is no point, he is too biased.

He is going to do what he is going to do.

If he would not take the same heavy-handed approach with

respect to regional councils, go out and meet with the councils across this

Province, show them the benefits, put it in dollars and cents the exact benefits

that would come to the various municipalities involved in regional councils, and

he may get some co-operation from the towns involved.

As I said, there are benefits with respect to roads, water

and sewer, waste disposal, all these types of concerns, if the towns come

together and possibly cost-share, but it has to be promoted in the right sense.

One of my concerns with respect to regional councils would be how they would be

formed, the representation on the regional councils. Would they be appointed,

will they be elected, and would there be increased costs to the towns?

The towns themselves, will they be required to take certain

services? Will there be certain services forced upon them? Will there be

services available that they can take if they want them, if they require them,

and will they have a choice? These are some of the questions that the Minister

of Municipal and Provincial Affairs should look at. They should only have to pay

for the services that they receive.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. J. BYRNE: I'm going to - well, it is up to you guys.

If someone wants to get up on that side they can get up.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, we don't want to hear - the Member for

Eagle River. I was on that side of the House last night in the Committee

meetings and I got a copy of your estimates. Did you check the copy of your

estimates today? Did you have a look at it?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Leave is withdrawn.

MR. J. BYRNE: You don't have to look at it. Leave is

withdrawn.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Leave is withdrawn, yes.

The hon. the Member for Eagle River.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I wanted to speak to this debate because of the intervention

by the Member for Burin - Placentia West. He was really indignant over there

about the way that the Premier of the Province has been spending his money and

going through the taxpayers' money for the last number of years, but the last

year in particular.

One of the questions that he had, of course, was that the

Premier was taking entertainment and other expenses and charging it off to other

departments. That was the way he says this was being hidden. I was sort of

confused by that because I didn't think anything like that could ever happen any

way, that any entertainment and any stuff like that would be charged to another

department. I guess the best people to ask the questions are some who know some

type of the answers that were there before.

The Member for Burin - Placentia West, of course, would know,

as a parliamentary assistant to the Premier before, how the previous Premier

used to do things. For instance, some time ago, the year after Premier Peckford

spent $51,000 in sixteen days, a year after that he says: Here are some of the

new documents. Billings to Executive Council have been crossed off and Energy

hand-written in the margins on the travel expenses and the entertainment

expenses, and all of that. Where it was supposed to be to the Executive Council,

Executive Council was scratched off, as hard as they could scratch it to get it

off the list, they scratched it off and wrote Energy in there. You see, they

wrote Energy in there, because at the time the Premier was supposed to be also

the Minister of Energy. So we had the hand-written Energy put in there changing

the department to which the services were charged. The cost, of course, air

travel and other things, for thirteen days this time, just a little over

$15,000.

There is no doubt that there was a very clear way of doing

things under the old Tory Administration. There was a clear way of trying to

hide things but, obviously, as we have heard in this House, as we have seen,

frugality is the order of the day. We are spending less now in the Premier's

Office than we have spent for the last ten years. We are spending less now in

the Premier's Office - it is there on the record for all to see - in 1994-'95,

with inflation and everything included, just dollars compared to dollars back

then, we are still spending somewhere around $100-and-some-odd thousand less now

than they were the last day in 1988 when Premier Peckford was in office. Now,

that is the record. It is the truth. They are the exact figures that were there,

and obviously there are things that were cut out.

I know that the Member for Burin - Placentia West would like

to have the Premier's dining room back. I know that is the policy over there,

that they want the executive dining room back, and no wonder they want it back.

Here we have a requisition for supplies and services: Please issue a standing

offer for liquor and beer to be picked up on an as and when required basis for

the private dining room. I guess that was probably a dozen beer, or a

dozen-and-a-half beer, or something like that, I suppose, $20 or $30, I suppose.

If there happened to be somebody come back on a hot day, and he might want a

cold beer or something, they might have half-a-dozen around that they could give

out; but, no, it wasn't anything like that - $20,000, one order.

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. DUMARESQUE: One order, dated April 1 - April Fools

Day, no doubt, in 1989, just before the people woke up and booted them out on

April 20, 1989, there they were, ordering $20,000 worth of booze. Who ordered

it? Obviously, he knows who ordered it.

Here is another one, requisition number 030013. Please issue

a standing offer for the supply of tobacco products.

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. DUMARESQUE: Tobacco products.

AN HON. MEMBER: Tobacco?

MR. DUMARESQUE: Tobacco for the Premier's private dining

room, to be picked up on an as and when required basis. Now, it wasn't tobacco

products, one cigarette, or two cigarettes, or something so that when someone

had a nicotine fit they had to have a cigarette; it wasn't something that was

there on an emergency basis. It wasn't one pack, it wasn't ten packs - $5,000

worth of tobacco products. Make no wonder their vision was blurred. Make no

wonder his mind was blown. Make no wonder that we had a Premier there with the

blown mind.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition House Leader on a

point of order.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

The member is making some wild accusations.

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) former Premier Peckford.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, and he has mentioned Premier

Peckford. Now, the date that is on that, I think, in all fairness, he should at

least be honest and say who was Premier at that time. It was not Peckford, and I

asked the member whose signature is on it for that reason. It could be that

Premier Wells ordered it, you know. He should not blame it on Premier Peckford

because I believe he was gone then.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

There is no point of order.

The hon. the Member for Eagle River.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Obviously, Mr. Chairman, if I was allowed

to table the information I would table it. Certainly, yes, if the people of this

Province could have gotten us in there on April 1, March 1, or February 1,

anytime in the last seventeen years, if they could have gotten us in there they

would have put us in there, they would have wanted us in there, but obviously on

April Fool's Day some Tory fool went and signed for $500,000 worth of tobacco

products, the big cigars. Make no wonder they did not know who the Premier was.

They did not who the leader was. They did not know what time to call the

election. They did not know where they were going. Can you imagine the smoke

that was coming out of that private dining room, Mr. Chairman? There were Cuban

cigars as big as the Mount Pearl cucumbers, I would expect.

Here is another one. Requisition No. 03315 purchased April 1,

again. Please issue a standing offer for the dry cleaning of tablecloths, etc.,

on an as and when required basis. Now, when would you require that all the

tablecloths be cleaned? I suppose if you were really in there, and you were

smoking as much as that, and drinking as much as that, I guess, it would not be

unusual that there might be a little spot of something on the tablecloth, and

maybe you want to have a little bit of cleaning done.

My normal dry cleaning is about $18.00 a week, but here we

have $1000 for the dry cleaning of tablecloths. They must have had tablecloths

draped all around the Cabinet room, all around the dining room, and all around

themselves. They must have had tablecloths everywhere, Mr. Chairman, and here

they have the audacity to come in here and tell the Premier of this Province,

who is spending $100,000 less today than was spent in the Premier's office in

the last days of the Tory government, telling us we should be learning lessons

from them, that we should be following in their footsteps.

Well, I have to tell it, and I do not always speak for

government, but I will tell them today that as far as this government is

concerned we are not going to dry clean any more tablecloths, we are not smoking

any more of those cigars, we are not drinking any more of that booze that was

down in the dining room. You can bawl, shout, and you can scream, but we are not

reopening that dining room for the Premier of the Province. No, we are not going

to have it done, Mr. Chairman. We cannot do it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

Before I recognize the hon. Member for Burin - Placentia West

I would like to announce the questions for the Late Show:

Question number one: I am dissatisfied with the answer

provided by the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, re my question on

Workers' Compensation Review Division, the hon. Member for Kilbride.

Question number two: I am not satisfied with the answer

provided by the Minister of Health, re my question on the Burin Peninsula Health

Care, the member for Baie Verte - White Bay.

Question number three, I am dissatisfied with the answer

provided by the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, re fire fighting

services, re airports, and that is the Member for Humber Valley.

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

When the Member for Eagle River got up to speak I do not know

why he would refuse to tell us who signed the documents that he is referring to.

Either someone signed the documents or it is conceivable that what the minister

is saying here -

AN HON. MEMBER: You could not see what you were signing

with all the smoke.

MR. TOBIN: My belief is that no one signed the documents

and that the documents are probably fabricated. That is my belief, Mr. Chairman.

If somebody signed them, then tell us who signed them, I say to the Member for

Eagle River. If somebody signed the documents tell us who signed them and if

they are not signed by anyone then they are not documents.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I don't know, I don't smoke.

MR. TOBIN: I don't smoke them either, I say to the member

but I can tell you one thing, if what the member is saying is true and the booze

was down in the dining room that he says is down there, I believe it was opened

today before lunch for the member. I believe it was opened today for the member.

Now, Mr. Chairman, someone referred to him the other day as

Mr. Doomer than the rest. I did not know what they were saying. Dumber than the

rest they were saying. No, they said: Mr. Doomer than the rest. It was someone

with an accent, Mr. Chairman, and they referred to him as Mr. Doomer than the

rest and I thought they were saying: dumber than the rest. Mr. Chairman, what

they were trying to say was Dumaresque but they were saying doomer than the rest

and I believe I was right. Mr. Chairman, today -

AN HON. MEMBER: Dumber than the rest, carried.

MR. TOBIN: I must say that both the Member for Conception

Bay South and the Minister of Finance, look really good together.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: A beautiful couple, let's marry them

now.

MR. TOBIN: No, they do. I don't know where the Minister

of Justice is gone but probably we could get him in. I understand he has some

extraordinary powers.

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, I don't know what Mr. Doomer

than the rest is saying but one thing we do know, today in this House -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, and in case he doesn't

know, Peckford won the leadership of this party in 1979. The person we had

organizing for him on the northeast coast of this Province was one, Chris

Decker, who lost every district that he organized and ran three times

provincially after that before he got elected, I say to the Minister of Health.

So you ran as often as you have been elected.

Now today in this House I said to the Premier: I said the

other day it was discovered that you were out spending money from other

departments, not just the Executive Council. No, he said, no, no, no. And I

said: Yes, yes, yes. He said: It all comes from my office. Yes, Mr. Chairman,

and I said: Premier that is not what the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology said the other day when he came in through the door like a

(inaudible). The Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology said: Premier... and

what he whispered to him and the Premier got up and he said: Well now, when I am

invited to do something for another department then it comes out of that

department. For example, I went to China and I went to... Where else did he go,

Hong Kong was it? Now he said: I charged that off to the ITT Budget. Then he

said: I went to Vancouver, Calgary and Montreal and I charged that off to the

ITT Budget. Then he said: I went to the Eastern Seaboard and obviously the ITT

Department paid for that as well. Now, Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is,

and it is quite clear, that the Premier of this Province no longer has his

budget up front in the Premier's office, and I said it the other day and I say

it again, that it is costing more today to keep the Premier in food,

entertainment and all the rest that goes with it, than it cost when the private

dining room was there.

MR. SHELLEY: It is covered up, that's all.

MR. TOBIN: It is covered up in other departments. Two

hundred and twelve thousand dollars, almost a quarter of a million dollars, for

Purchased Services in the Protocol budget.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: What is included in that? Tell them.

MR. TOBIN: What is included in that? Entertainment at the

Premier's home for all his dignitaries, and the ambassadors, and the foreign

people.

MR. DUMARESQUE: Is that (inaudible) when you were over

there?

MR. TOBIN: No, and you be careful now or I will report

you to the SPCA, and the member knows exactly what I am talking about, what he

was going to do if he didn't get into Cabinet.

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: No it is not, Mr. Chairman. The Member for

Trinity North knows what I am talking about, I say to the Member for Eagle

River. If the Member for Fogo were here he would know what I am talking about.

MR. DUMARESQUE: You don't believe that, do you, the

Member for Fogo?

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, that is not very nice, to refer

to another member as `that'.

Mr. Chairman, I would say the Member for Eagle River should

be very quiet with the information that I have, of a threat that he issued, and

I won't say it unless I am forced to.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Who did he issue it against?

MR. TOBIN: Oh, I can't say that.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Premier?

MR. TOBIN: No, but I can tell you it would take the SPCA

to deal with it.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Premier's dog? The Premier's cat?

AN HON. MEMBER: Time is up.

MR. TOBIN: No, it's not half up.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: You be careful.

Mr. Chairman, I can say that the Premier of this Province is

probably the most expensive Premier that we have ever had, if we could only get

at the real cost, if we could only see how much is covered off. He admitted

today trips to Asia, to the Eastern Seaboard, all across the country to

Vancouver, were charged off to ITT.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) do that.

MR. TOBIN: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) do that.

MR. TOBIN: I am not arguing, I say to the minister, that

he shouldn't do it. Stop being as sanctimonious about it as you are, I say to

the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board. Be up front. Never mind going under

the table like you did with Trans City.

I would say the minister doesn't remember half the places the

Premier goes, because he has a lapse of memory occasionally, and I cannot fault

the minister if he can't tell me - in the budget - the other day he said it was

all included in the Premier's Office, and the Minister of ITT said the

difference, but knowing that the minister has had a lapse of memory in the past,

I can only conclude that he had it the other day. I would never accuse him of

misleading this House. I just wrote it off to another memory lapse.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: What?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Then he goes down to the court and tells the

judge he lied in the House. He said: I lied to all of them in the House.

It is a good thing we sort of like the hon. minister. If we

didn't like you, we would have you gone out of here long ago. If it was the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, for example, he would be gone

long ago.

Now, I believe the minister has been misled there. I don't

think he should take too much advice from the Member for Conception Bay South. I

believe she is advising him on what to say.

MR. EFFORD: What are you saying?

MR. TOBIN: What am I saying? I am saying that I wish

there was a Minister of Works, Services and Transportation in this Province who

could go into Cabinet and get more than $15 million for the road work, could go

into Cabinet like I did and come out with $49 million. If we only had another

minister! When I was Minister of Transportation, we got $60 million for

provincial roads in this Province, and look what that minister got - $15

million.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time has elapsed.

MR. TOBIN: By leave, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. member have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Education and Training.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Chairman, I remember, for the few short

years when we were in Opposition over there, we took advantage of every minute

to outline for the people of this Province our vision, what we would do when we

became government. The time that we would do it, when we would take advantage of

that, would be in a money bill, would be in the Budget Speech or whatever, Mr.

Chairman, where we would have the opportunity to have a wide-ranging debate. I

remember when we were over there in Opposition, how we talked about our plan to

put the economic zones in place. We talked about our plan to have a Strategic

Social Plan in place, which we are now working on. We talked about our plans to

make reforms to the health care system and to the education system, which we are

doing, Mr. Chairman. So nobody will be surprised if I have been expecting that

in this Budget Speech the Opposition members would outline their plans if ever

they got in power.

So, Mr. Chairman, I listened with open ears when the

Opposition Finance critic, the Member for Mount Pearl, outlined his plan for the

economy when they get back in power. I was shocked, Mr. Chairman, when I heard

their plan. He said, `Just think about the contribution that the Sprung

Greenhouse made to Newfoundland. Eighty jobs,' he said, `in Mount Pearl.'

Remember that? The sky in Mount Pearl was lit up for miles around and birds were

staying awake all night. Remember that? The birds were laying double. Did you

hear that one? The robins were laying double and then when the young robins came

out, for the first time in the old robin's history, she ended up with six or

eight chicks and she couldn't keep the food to them, Mr. Chairman.

AN HON. MEMBER: So she fed them cucumbers.

MR. DECKER: So when I sat here and listened to the

Opposition put forward their grand design, their plans, did they say they were

going to come up with an economic plan for the Province, Mr. Speaker? No. Did

they say they were going to invest in aquaculture, Mr. Chairman? Did they say

they were going to reform the medical services? No, Mr. Chairman. He said, `We

are going to go and look for Dawn Sprung. We are going to build more

greenhouses.' They haven't been chastened one bit. They have been over there now

in excess of six years and they haven't learned a single thing. All they want to

do is talk about what a contribution Sprung made, and if we are going to get in

power again we are going to build twenty-five greenhouses. The coastline will be

littered with greenhouses and instead of paying off $25 million we will pay off

$100 million, $200 million, a billion dollars, Mr. Chairman, and every cow in

this Province will develop a taste for greenhouses.

Just as an aside, Mr. Chairman, my friend, the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation showed me this cookbook. You know, this

cookbook has cost the Province a tremendous amount of money. This cookbook was

written to get Newfoundlanders to develop a taste for cucumbers. Most of us grew

up in the outports and we didn't know what cucumbers were for god's sake, but

this book was published and it got me eating cucumbers. I developed a taste for

cucumbers and there are hundreds of thousands of fellow Newfoundlanders who have

become addicted to cucumbers. This is what this cookbook did to them, Mr.

Chairman. Now, they are having withdrawal symptoms. Think of the strain that

this is putting on the health care system of the Province. We only look at the

$25 million, we don't look at the hardship that has been put upon people. What

does the Opposition Finance Minister talk about the Tory dream for the future,

the Tory plan for the future? He talks about building more greenhouses, Mr.