r I l PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDL-AND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Velum~ 1 Number 11 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATI~.~ REPORT ·- MONDAY, MARCH 2,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CI.:ARKE

The House met at 3 p.m. ~!r. Speaker in the Chair. HON. J.R.S!·IALL~~9..QD(P_Eemicr): !-tr. S('leaker, I wish to inform the House that I sent the following telegram to iter Gracious !·1ajesty the Queen, at Gander. "As you fly over our Province Your Government and loyal subjects of Newfoundland and Labrador "Wish you Godspeed and a safe journey." (sgd~ J.R. Smallwood. To 'Which Her }fajesty has 'been r;raciously pleased to send me a message :>.n these words: "Thank you very much for your kind messa~e." (sgd) Elizabeth P..

While I am on my feet I should like to exp•ress a word of very cordial welcome to some 75 Grade Vlll students of Bishop Feild. These are made up of two classes and they are in char~e of }!rs Beverly Lee and Hr. ~lead us. I am particularly happy that they are here vi:;ltinr. us in the! people;s House today because: it so happens that I am myself ari old Feildian. ~ spent five years at Bishop Feild as a boarder, and I have a very soft spot ~~ my heart indeed for Bishop Feild.

When the girls come here as they do every ~ar from Littledale Academy I am able to make the ?roud boast that I attended Li~~ledale and that I am a fellow student or a former fellow student of thoSe girls., ':bec.::usc the school I went ·t:o uas co-edJ boys and F:irls, _both of us. I do not think 'We /had have any students here- yet from St. :l-lary's, which used to be on the Southside .. I was a student there a$ well. British Hall is gone, that was an Anglican School opposite the old tobacco fmrtory.

Later it was a branch of Bishop Spencer, but I attended it as a small boy !i think it was the first school I went to, ~ before it \~as a girls ·school Bishop Spencer:, and finally, Centenary. ~o Bishop Feild; Littlev!ale; St. Nary's Southside; : ill-Titish Hall and Centenary. I had the honour of attending,if they did not ha;,e tH1e honour of having me, I had the honour of attending them. I am delij::hted these !iroys are here from Bishop Feild and I want them to feel very very welcome indee~ ~s they sit . and listen to the _proceedings in the People's House.

I -hope indeed:thatr . some of them will form the ambition here today that they too on(.day will sit 'dcnWTn here on the floor rather than in the stranger's galleries; and sit on the proper;:· side of the House and become the Queen's ~linisters and perhaps the Queen's principal!. minister of this Province. It is a good ambition and it is one that can be :r.ehiL1.zed· •. Now' evety day \·te have students visitinr, ',: ws here and I end up my word of Yelcome "

.. . to them ah~ays by throwin~ out, (as the ·n.ewsp.lpers would call it) hurling a challenge to the Leader of the Opposition; but I can not do it today he is not present but no doubt someone will speak for him. A challenr;e to the Leader of the Opposition to get up and repeat what I have said. ~epeat the same warm cordial word -of welcome to these students and to say that he, too, welcomes them here and hopes that they will enjoy their visit.

There are six old Feildians sitting da~ on the floor of the House, I am not the only one, there are five others most of them on this side of the House and a couple I think on the other side and so it shows ~he students of Dishop Feild that that college;that school must have something or there would not be as many old Feildians over here, on the floor of the House, MR.H.V.R.EARLE: Hr.

Speaker, I do not wisfu to usurp the privilege of the Opposition in welcoming these students but as he is ~ay today, I feel perhaps I am the most · appropriate person to do so, because 1 I, likiZ! the Premier, all of my schol"'stic career was sr>ent in Feild. Bishop Feild Ceillege, I spent il -years the 're. My whole education was not so mixed up as the Premf~'s and therefore, possibly I see in a much straighter line because I was not infl1ucnced by a girls school or another type of school. The ethics of Bishop Feild\ College in those days, . andi.I hope they al!e<·tha same today was one of absolute fair play.

It did not matter if we won the game o-t lost the p,ame, how many mornings d"ii•d I go to prayers under the Headmaster and say,well fellows you lost 22 to l yestmrday but you played a good game. And for the whole of 11 years that "We were the:oe we lost, but we still played the-game.­ AN HO~. MD·IBER: Not always! · Not always!! - }fR.EARLE~ \~e always/b~~fi respect to my hom. colleague. MR.SMALLUOOD: The hon. gentlema-n is used t:w losing, that is where he got used -- to· losing. ~.EAFLE: nut, Mr.

Speaker, the Premier memtioned that perhaps some of these boys will have the ambition to enter GOvernment some later date and perhaps become ministers. I filled three portfolios, th~t of EducatioJn~ ~clfare.and finance, and I repeated expressly on many occasions that I have no <rrmbition to ho-ld the ·position o-f'Pr-einier;' · .. ::: Unfortunately I noticed this morning on a r.mdio programme that althour,h I was not runninG I got five votes , as the Leader of: tthis party ldthout my name even in. I wonder if I did thrm-~ my hat in the ring jus:-tt hm-1 many- votes I would get.

Anyhow I do not wish to -..·onder off the subject onlY,;' to extend to these boys a very hearty welcome indeed and hope that they throu:;Jiout::. 1:he· years o,..•hatever the· tempt-ations -of the country are lwill live up to the high - stri:mJards ahf<l]S la-id down and set by Bishop Feild Colle~;e.

: MR.J .C. CROSBIE: }fr. Sp!!aker, I r::ip,ht address a feH t·;ords of welcome to the boys visitin~ this afternoon fro:n Bishop Feild College. fls the Independent Liberal Group In,the House also has an old Feildian among them, naraely, myself. The fact that two of the graduates of Bishop Feild are the llon. the Premier and myself, is bound to show that graduates of the same school do~~ not always agree.

There is oor -was an old school song at Fei)d when I -was there, I think went , Boom chic a boom,boom chic a boom, ~oom chic a boom chic a boom boom boo~ Sis boom bah sis boom bahJFcildians, Feildians 1rah 1rah,rah. We intend to give the Hon. the Premier. a:f~w sis boom bahs as the feasion goes on to show that the old Feildian· 3pirit is still there. I hope you enjoy the "ession.

I think that the !!on. the Premier intends to speak this afternoon and I am sure that you -will find that very interesting and that once you have listened for a while/~e Hon the Premier you -will be able to sit quietly through your classes for the rest of the week at Bishop Feild. MR.SPEAKER: lfuile l•le are on the subject of t~elcoming visitors . to this Chamber may I say and I say this particularly fDfthe benefit of the press in the hope that they will give us some assistance in this. He have been a little embarrassed in recent days by having two groups of students turn 1:q1 on the same day.

One r;roup h:Jd arranged for reservations and had advised the Serp,eant-at -Arms wbo. rnakes these arrangements) had advised him, and had their .day set do•m 1o1hen they could come and visit the House. Another group showed up ~thout having made any arrangements and much to his and our embarrass~ents we ~e~e not in a position to accommodate them.

So if this word could be r,otten out l!:o the public generally) particularly to teachers and school groups and other orgamizations that if they do intend to come and visit the House in the afternoon cr evening will they please get in touch with the Sergeant-at-Arms so there would be ~ conflict and some of them would not have to go a1o1ay disappointed. And I trust as I say again that the press would give this a little bit of publicity s& ~hat it may save embarrassment both for students and for the House in general. '' l!ON~iE!';s ·~JO~ms (Min. of Finance): Mr.

Speaker,; I bep,. leave . to present a pe~i!=· -lon . on, · i , behalf of the people from Clarke's Head, Vic;:tt:,oria Cove, 1-Jinp, 's Point, Rogers Cove; Stoneville and Horwood in the District of F0:;~o, as uell as Port Albert and Boyd's Cove in the District of Lewisporte. The_. _p.ray-<er _of this petition is that a school nurse, a public nurse be provitled for -!;he O=tennial llip,h School situated on ·_ the-· -road between Gander nay on what is called --t:b;e lloruood Road. I l!lay say that this · petition is signed hy each householder in ~;he entl.re area · . I might say as well (c.l ·

·' that in talking to these people concerned in this petition.)it is thought . that possibly if one nurse were provided to serve the Rer.ional Hir,h School at Carmanville and also the one in the Ga:1uer Bay /lr~a. tl!at one nurse could service both schools. I 1:1ay say, Sir, that this matter has been discussed , with my colleague the !Jon. the riinistcr of Ilealt!t and it is l'IY understanding that ;ts j.ust the question of personnel at the moment a.a to when a nurse can be provided. I ask this petition be laid on the Table of the E6use and referred to the departl'lent to which it relate~. ~.ll.COI.Lit!S~ ~!r.

Sneaker it r-ives r.e great pleasure to support the petition .1ust introduced by the '.finister tif !liFll\·Tays, and member for Fose District, I 'wuld certainly hope that with the concentration of pu!'JilS in larr,er schools today that one of the advanta~es to be obtained from this W(•uld be the provision of specialized •• services and certainly of a nurse lookin~ after the health needs of the students can be considered in that class .

Certainly the people of Clarke's He2d and !.Jing 's Point , Victoria Cove, and Rogers Cove, Horwood, Stoneville, Port Albert and Boyd's Cove are deservine of this service and 1 ,.;ould hope that the minister of Health woul~be able to accommocate them. On motion petition received. HO~. H.STARKI!_SO!in. of High1~ays): l!r. Speaker, I \:auld like to support the petition dealing with the tmm of Boys's Cove, Port Albert arc included. I hope everything possible 'Hill be done to exceed to their most reasonable request. MR. STARKES: ~r.

Speaker, I beg leave to table Hotor Regulations,Kno'm as Highway Traffic Fees Reeulations; Highway Traffic Licensin~ and Equipment Regulations, and Vehicle Regulations, made under the Highuay Traffic Act during the past year. MR._g~_LlmOQ.:.. Hr. Speaker, in ansver to Question ~lo. 14 in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, it is too ·lonc to read so I will present thr document itself ~~-~ion_I< o. 123; on today's Order Paper, in the nal'le of the hon. member for St. John's East Extern.

This question has already been ans~~ered, Oues t_ion Xo ,_..!_25: in the n=e of the hon, member · for -Gander, · The answer to this question is that ''e have p,i:ven some advice and encouragement to the corn:nittee and 1 understand that they have received so~:~e financial help from the Government of Canada. Quest~o~_?lo._l_2j..!.. in the name of the hen. mp,mber for Gander, {1) Yes.

(2) This will . be answered in due course.

Question _ ~o . 127, in the name of the hon. the member for Gander.

(1) No.

(2) No al}swer. Question No . 128 in the narne of the Lea der of the Opposition.

(1) Yes, but sometime in the very i ndefi nite future .

(2) There has been no thought th 2 t aU •.CrO\o."n Cor po r a tions or Commission sho •.1ld have ·their off ice s in Confedcrat.i cm Building . ·.

' .. Hon. E. H. ROBfRTS (Ninister of Health):- - I have here, Sir, the answers . to .. three of the Questions standin~ on the Order Paper and addressed to me. The first, Sir, is Question No.47, asked by the hon. member for St John's West, to be found in the Order Paper of February 23. The answer, Sir, is: No, neither I nor any of my officials has or have (I am not sure of the grammatical point~ ferhaps the young gentlemen from Bishop Field can help us, Sir- being an old Collegian myself).

Neither I nor any of my official has told either of these two hospital corporations that they are not free to ne~otiate on financial matters .with their employees without my concurrence. In behalf of the Government, however, I did tell the board of each of these hospitals that the Government were not able to authorize any financial commitment above that which we have already authorized for the corporations for this year - the year in question, Sir, being the fiscal year which ends at the end of this present month. This policy statement, t!r.

Speaker was sent to each board in advance of their individual decisions to agree to the appointment of Conciliation Boards. In one case, Sir, the statement was conveyed in a letter from me and in another it was conveyed in a letter from one of my officials. Mr. Speaker, with respect to Question No.l21, which I believe appears on today's Order Paper, asked by the hon. member for StJohn's West, who seems to be a shadow minister of health - the question, Sir, is in four parts. ' Each of them deals with a matter of government policy. Government policy, Mr.

Speaker, is not and never has been revealed in ans~.rers to questions. Questions seek factual information. In this connection, S_ir, members may wish to r~ fer to the Fourth Edition of Beausechene. 148, Citation 171, (

w) and (b)(v). are the two precise references, Sir, which set forth rulings on this point. The construction of the new hospital facilities }lr. Speaker, or the expansion of present hospital facilities is a matter touching on -major aspects of health .. ·.; services policy. I should add of course, there will be ample opportunity Mr. _ Speaker, during the debate on the Address in Reply when the Estimates of the Department of Health are callad, to go into any length on these questions, any hon. gentlemen may wish. It is sub_1ect to the Rules. Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman wishes to move a reduction in- my salary I will even give him the wording

; ~ •. .. ,.. ... ... March 1., lY/0 Ta11e 1113R Page 2 ' " if he does not have the Resolution. Mr. Sneaker, the answer to Question No. 10n on the Order Paper February 2_7, asked by the hon. member for St. John's \-lest. The answer to Part (1) is No. The answer to Part (2) is No. I should add Sir for the sake of completeness, that a functional ulan for the Medical School Buildings at the University has been completed, and vas received by me some time ago. The answer to Part

(3) Of course Sir, this is a matter of government policy, and will be announced at the approoriate time. Perhaps when the hon. gentleman wishes to debate the question of my salary. I have copies for the Cler~Mr. Speaker, and for the press. l!Otq. STF.PHF.N ~EARY (Hinister without Portfolio): 'Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to the part of Question No. 99 on the Order Paper of Friday, February 27, asked by the hon. member for Bonavista North.

The nuestion was directed originally to the Minister of Public Works, but if the hon. members will recall he redirected a part of the nuestion to me as ~!inister of Social Services and Rehabilitation. Part (4) ' IJh the part that I am answering now. Thirty houses were built as follows: Rigolet 4: Makkovik 4: Postville 4; Hopedale 5; Davis Inlet 3; and Nain 10. The avera~e cost Hr. Speaker, was$7,238 Tenders were called 'for materials only, and the reason tenders were not called for labour Mr.

Speaker, is that in northern Labrador, we have on the staff of the branch in my department of Northern Labrador Services, carpenters who do the vork and drive the nails and all that sort of thing, On Friday's Order Paper also there was a question asked by the hon. member for St. John's East Extern. Obviously the hon. member did not know which minister to ask the question of, so he put "either . or" and ttom my :oart I think the question should he ans'lo'ered by the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housin~. On today's Order Paper Mr. Speaker, ~uestion No. 122 asked by the bon. member for St.

John's lolest. The ansver to Part (1) is No. And the ans"rer to Part (2) is that any decision taken in this matter will be announced in due course. And Part

(3) Any action taken in this matter will he announced in due course. On today's Order Paper also Mr. Speaker, there is the question from the hon. member for Gander. No. 124. I mi~ht sav in connection with the answer to this question Mr. Speaker, that to save the hon. member's ti~e, I all\ .going to distribute with your permi5sion your Honour, copies of a directory of services of the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. And this gives

.• 7v \'. some helpful information and might give the hon. members on the opposite side . of the House an idea of ~hat it is we are doing in this depart~ent. And I would suggest then Mr. Speaker, that in future before asking questions concerning the service or even statistical data, relating to this department - HR. CROSBIE: The han. ~entleman is not answerin~ the question now, he is making a gratuitous insult to members of the House. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman may take it as an insult, but I am only trying to be helpful to him and save time for the House. And I mi~ht say Mr.

Speaker, additional copies are available to members, to the general public and to the press, upon the request of the Deputy Min~ster of Social Services and Rehabilitation. The answer is contained in this booklet Mr. Speaker, but I will give it for benefit•of members of the House. It is up to fifty dollars with the approval of the Regional Administrator or Director, and up to· a hundred dollars with the approval of the Minister. HR. HAROLD COLLINS: Mr. Speaker,tloe answer which the hon.

Minister just supplied us - it means that with the minister's approval, the Department of Welfare ~ill pay up to $100 rent, for welfare recipients in St. John's, but they would only pay up to fifty dollars a month for people in Gander and outside St. John's. Are they second class citizens? MR. NEARY: If I may ~lr. Speaker, I ~ould suggest to the hon. gentleman that if he really wants a comprehensive answer that he put it on the Order Paper, but the observation that he just made was incorrect. HON. HAROLD STARKES {P~nister of Highways): Hr.

Speaker, I -lust tabled an answer to question No. 52 asked by the han. member for Bonavista North. And I have the answer to question No. 90, asked by the hon •. member for St. John's West.

(1) The answer is $6,585,344. {2) The answer is no.

(3) Government policy in this respect will be announced in due course. HO~. E. N. DAl<E (Minister of Municipal Affairs): Mr. !;oeaker, . in an=er to question No. 102 on Friday's Order Paper, February 2~ ;· _-_asked -by the hon. member for St. John's West. The answer to Part (1) .The an=er is no, bu.t the recommendations are now bein~ considered bv the, l~vernment and its decision will be announced in due course. I might add that one of the ma1or recommendations that is related to the land bank concept and land development has been goin~ on

... ,... --.. ~- '., - March 2, 1970 Tape IH38 , Page 4 for some time throughout the Province, and that we have undertaken this ·· recommendation on the broad scale for some time. Part (2) $104,841.26. MR. JONES: Hr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question No. 55 on the Order Paper, February 23, asked by the hon. member for Bonavista North, The amount of refunds of gasoline tax to taxpayers of taxes they have been required to pay on tax exempt gasoline during the financial year 1968-69. The total amount was $4,700,071.17. Part

(2) The names of taxpayers, their place of residence. Hr. Speaker, we are finding it very impractical if not i111possible at . short notice to get together all of these names, as many thousands of claims are involved, Part

(3) The amount of refunds of Social Security Assessment Tax The answer $67,323.00, and the names of the taxpayers and their places of residence -Mr. Speaker, we feel that this is the type of information that is• nottthe · ~ractice of governments to disclose. It is a matter between the taxpayer and the Government, and .it is doubtful whether or not we should disclose the names of the taxpayers involved. The answer to Ouestion 118 on the Order Paper of March 2, asked by the hon. member for Humber East. The Question;~s the Price 'Water Report on the Newfoundland and Labrador I.iquor Commission received ·( by the C~vernment. The answer is yes.

(2) If the answer to (1) is yes; when a will the Report be tabled in the House? ~~. Speaker, I am not in position to answer that

section of the question at the moment. This is an interdepartmental report and I cannot say if or when it will be tabled. Part

(3) How much did the report cost? The answer to that is as of the 28 day of February 1970 - it vas just a few days ago. The total cost was $53,708.54. MR. EARLE: Have any recommendations of that report been implemented so far? MR. JONES: Hr. Speaker, the report is still under review. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, before we proceed to Orders of the Day, I would like to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussin~ a definite matter of urgent public importance. .... j

... . \ . '. March 2, 1970 Tape 139 Page 1 GC MR. J.C.

CROSBIE: I would like to move the adjourn~nt of the House fat: the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance and that matter is 1the present situation in respect to the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission and the condition of the power transmission line from Bay D'Espoir to the Avalon Peninsula and other areas in Newfoundland in view of the major damage that occurred over the weekend in the ice or sleet storm in that area Friday and Saturday ~nd to discuss the reason for the collapse of these transmission towers - what damage has resulted, suffered by the power commission and by uses of electricity and what steps, if any, are or will be taken to prevent any repetition of such a calamity with reference to the transmission power - with referencE; to th~ tra.11smission of electric ? power within this Prov!nce. / I submit, Mr.

Speaker, that this is a mat-ter that is -urg.en _t and that the public and certainly the House should be informed and what the present situation is and what the likelihood is of this occuring again and that the metter should be discussed at this time. I have here the written statement/ the rules requir~for Your Honor to consider. MR. SMALLV.'OOD·r.'Mr. Speaker, the urgency in these cases must be urgency of debate, not urgency of a matter - ·a matter we kno..,.we know is urgent. I hold that it is not urgent that we s~o~lq depate it now.

The matter is in the hands of the Newfoundland Light and Power Company for their part and in the hands of the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission for their part, and the tt~o bodies, one a co=en;~al corn,pany -and tb,e _other, a crown - corporation, are working closely together. They are out in the - field trying to get power restored and cleaning up the mess and deba-ting it now, today, at this moment~ Bcferring all other business of the House, is not necessary.

It is not urgent that there be a deb;]lt:e·;a""q I :1.1il,l point 04t :to _:X our J:lonor- _. :, . something that Your Honor does not neecl _ t~ have pointed out to him and I do it really for the purpose of pointing out to the !louse, that it is urgency of debate, not urgency of the matter :itself - a matter maybe urgent, but that does not mean , it docs not foll01~ tnt it is urgent, that it be debated. It must be urgency of debate not urg~cy o( a matter.

\ '. . t March 2, 1970 )Tape 139 Page 2 GC -. But, there is not point in arguing now that there is an urgency to debate it now. That "Will not help in the least and an}·thing that can be said in the debate on that no"W can be just as easily said in the debate on the address in reply. . ! There is ample opportunity before the House to debate these matters without deferring all other business and just concentrating on that one topic. MR. CROSBIE: I have already, Mr.

Speaker, if I might address myself ,to the . hou·; the ':Preinier' s comments that there has been no statement today as one would normally expect from the Government to the members of this hon. House as to "What the situation is "With respect to this transmission trouble - the_lines from BayD'espoir - that being the case the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Commission reports to the bon. the Premier, one would have thought that there would have been a statement as toW1at the situation is, how long it is · going to take to clear up, what the chances are of a repetition of this. A atand in order of our rules, Mr.

Speaker, makes no\ mention of whether the point is the urgency of debate or not. It says, when made for the purpose of di6cussing a definite~matter of urgent public importance which is what this is, an urgent matter , or a definite matter of urgent public importance. And I think that an explanation is due the House and to the public and should be forthcoming now. MR.

SPEAKER: I think it is entirely unnecessary for me to state what I did in the last sitting of the House, I think in a similar motion I stated - it is an eBtablished precedent, it is the rule that I think is accepted by all Parliament, that urgency of debate is, and I said it two or three days ago, is a question that the Speaker has to consider as to whether the matter, in his opinion, is urgent - an urgently requiring debate. I will say, once again, that I - as I said ·the .day before ye·sterday - .. ... that the matter is urgent.

There is no doubt about that ·, but because I do: . not ·.tlink that a debate on the matter right at this present time is of the urgency that it might be if the addres~int replies were not on the agenda of the House right at the present time, plus the fact, that if anybody 1 required to obtain information about any of these things the Government has., that .is. the kind of question which could be asked on orders of the day .and not even • . ~ 1,1

{. .. !.·- 'I : .·.: ...... ,. March 2, 1970 TApe 139 Page 3 GC put on the order paper. For that reason, I say that I do not think that the debate is urgent enough. The requirements of having an urgent debate on this, at.the present time,·and to dispense of all other·business of the House, does not exist under the present circumstances. MR. B.J. ABBOTT: Mr.

Speaker, before Your Honor sustains with the Orders of the Day, I have been absent from the House a week, with the flu~ I returned to the House to find I have no place to hang my hat or to hang my coat and I was just wondering what the Intenaal Economy Commission is doing in relation to an office for the independent members. I have been in this House fourteen years and I have no place to hang my coat. MR. SPEAKER: The question is directed to l-lhom? Would the hon. :nember please say? To whom is the bon. member's question directed? MR. ABBOTT: The internal - the leader, I presume.

The Interaal Economy : Commission --- MR. SPEAKER: If it has to be directed to the Internal Economy Commission, then the question must go ~n the Order Paper, because obviously, the - as every member knows, the Speaker is the Chairman of the Internal Economy Commission and cannot answer questions to the Chair, but he will be glad to answer questions privily which he is obligated to do when the bon. members ask him the same questions privily, but he would: 'd:treet lt to the Minister of Public Works- or some other minister. MR.

ABBOTT: With your permission, Sir, I direct the question to the Minister of Public Works. MR. G, MYRDEN: Mr. Speaker, before you call Orders of the Day, I think I have a request here of the bon. Minister of Mines and Resources. This, I think, in the eyes of western Newfoundland should be debated. There are great statements coming out of Ottawa these days, of millions of dollars lying up there, according to the pa~~rs . repot:ts over in western Newfoundland and MR. SPEAKER: Is this a question? MR. MYRDEN: Yes, it is a question, Sir.

It is a question to the minister, and I would like to know if the minister has anything further to tell the people of western Newfoundland concern~ng the Gros Morne Park. HR. H.R.V. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, when I spoke on Friday, I was guilty of a discourtesy which I wish to correct. I omitted the usual and time-honoured 6' /~-

" :: -.... ~·l-· ..... _:,· t ' ... , .,, ., .... . . ...... .. . ; .. ·- .. March 2, 1970 Tape 139 Page 4 GC practice of extending my congratulations to the mover and the seconder of. the ~tion to draft a reply. I would hasten to do so now because each of these gentlemen was very fluent, very able in his remarks. As a matter of fact, it causes me to wonder why the traditional practice of having some of the younger members do this job, was replaced by having two of the old stalwarts do the s ame task.

It would rather seem to reflect; .! think, that perhaps it needed to be pointed out that some of the old faithful were so subdued that they could do the job rather than have some of these people over here who are always kicking over the traces,continually growling. There is to be some unity in the camp displayed so they did an excellent job in doing that. It is rather surprising, though, I alwa¥s admired.the secopder's dexterity with words. In fa~t, I envied him.

He is a very learned , -- . ; . gentleman - a very deep reader and a constant reader and I have always ·: 0 : ' j wished his ability to say nothing in such a wonderful number of words. In the case of the mover, of course, this is a rather different case because he - I think the Premier gave us rather a resounding spanking on the subject of people knowing what they are in for when they join Cabinet. If I recall the discussion at the time, it was to the effect that when a Cabinet minister accepts a post, he knows that he can be shifted from one to ~he other.

He must accept that gratefully and even accept his dismissal from Cabinet gracefully. We all know this. This goes without saying.

It is rather foolish actually, because all of us or many of us who have been in Cabinet have moved from post to post without any comment whatsoev~r, vithout any . disagreement and certainly, we felt compelled to obey the dictates of th~ leader and I do not see what relevance/fl~~~bS~~tin the case of the bon. gentleman, it is quite well known that he had quite a lot to say about it when he was left, and I sympathize with him beca.lls~_., he aQ_tl ~ot?er ~e~tlel!la~ now on this side of the House, did in my .opin~on, r':_C':_ive t:ath~~ sc~.rvy .. treatment for two old faithfuls, and I felt very, very much -very sorry for them at the time, and I thought they were quite justified 1n making the remarks that they did, publicly. : -'t~

March 2, 1970 Tape 139 Page 5 GC I think perhaps in the case of the hen. gentleman who moved the motion, that perhaps his reversal of sentiments is more due -to suspicions than. it might be due to something more material than sentiment or emotion. AN HON. MEMBER: His health is improved. MR.

EARLE: When I joined the debate on: Friday, I was talking about the . employment of people on contract and so on within the service who sometimes came in or were brought in at quite high remuneration which generally upset: the standing and the expectations of other members of the public service and _ I pointed out that one of the purposes of this public administration survey , was to remedy that situation.

There had been, from time to time, a number of people brought in who came in at perhaps, unjustified salaries, which were far above those being received by other people who had laboured for . .many, .many years in the_ publi.c ·:, .. service without possibly fair recognition and I am very happy that this situation will be remedied, I hope, by the public administration survey now going on.

Just to recap briefly some of the items which I mentioned in my speech, I brought to task the han. the member for Bay de Verde, happening to pick upon the Koch Shoes as a good example of a small industry and pointed out that each of the fifty odd jobs over there had costed the Province approx- imately $64,000.00 each which I did not think was quite anything to c~ow about. I was also taken to task for the comments which I made on ARDA, FRED, and DREE which were apparently picked up ,over a radio pro_~ram by the hon~ the Minister of Hines, Agriculture and Resourc .es.

My only comment on that at the time, was that expectations had been built up to such a level by announcements on the ARDA, FRED and DREE programs that I hoped and sincerely hoped that the expectations for the DREE p_r.ogr·aJ!! tdl,l live :llP. ~ .the ~ ,, · announcements which have been made abo~t . it. I l .. . ,_ " ' .:.. ··: ~ . ._ .. -. .. • : .J

--I l. :. -- I did speak at some len~th about the salt codfish marketin~ board, and went to the defence of the old time fish merchant. And in bet~quoted on this in the press, there was one important point left out which I should like to have re:::P.died. When I defended these old time merchants, I did make what I think was a very accurate comparsion insofar as the help that they sought and got which was minimum is absolutely ridiculous wascompared to the assistance and help which some of the so-called modern industries wea!etryin~ to bring in here are bein~ offered.

In fact, I think, that the amount being offered to one of these industries~at the moment, and I speak particularly of the Oil Refinery at Come-by- - Chance, or the proposed Oil Refinery, would Ia total the amount of the bill which we will face on that 1 or the assistance which we will give, will in total more than cover all of the assistance to all of the fish merchants in Newfoundland since the day the salt codfish business started.

I did spend some time talking about my district of Fortune Bay, _ particularly emphasising the p,reat need for roads, and I would just like to repeat that today that the crying need for that area, is communications and roads. And I direct my remarks particularly to the Hinister of Hi~hways and hope that the program which was started so many years ago, and\hich ~'ent ahead at such a snails pace, n'~n.­ will at least go ahead at somethinr,~than a snails pace this year.

Because the people of that coast, not only . in my district, but all around the South Coast feel that they have been, and are bein~ very, very 1 se~rely neglected. I did not get around in my speech to mentionin~ the forthcoming economic conference. Possibly the reason I did not do so was the fact, I think all of us are a little bit fed up with conferences and large announcements, they seem to be created more for the publicity which they created than what they accomplish. I recall very vividly of . course th~ famous T.V. Conference where we brought in ~ people from all over the world.

And it was an exciting three days, it was a~·.rather interesting one, but I do not actually rereember anythin~ at all having come out of it. I do not thjnk there were any results that anybody can recall. And · this, Sir, has always been the story about these conferences.

In my opinion, economic conference, economic satisfaction, economics as. such being the life bl~od . of this Province, that probably the better way, if I might sugi!;est to ~o about ·· this sort of thinr. would be to hold regional get to~ethers of small groups of qualified people in different sections of the country first, before calling a conference. :For arp;ument sake in Corner .. llrook, on the \.;'est Coast we have a ··, . beautiful public huilding .over .there, a lar~e part of which particularly the

.t ... '· · • - .. .... \ . . ·' government offices are not used, they are - very elaborate and they are a wonder_ful place in which to see the scenery, but I do not think they arc used an awful lot. And possibly this could be the place to hold sessions of small ~roups of qualified people to first of all get their thinking clear as to what could be done in that particular area. Then you could go to Grand Falls and in the same sort of .situation there in ~he public building, which does not ~~t all that much use, the same sort of situation could be developed.

And if this were done over a period of a couple of months all around the Province, then possibly and then only wonld be the tim~ having correlated all of this thinking and all of this study, you might bring in to St. John's a relatively s~all group of people who had had time to think and diseuS.l! these matters, so it 1~ould not just be a great play ring t:ircus with the band master and everybody getting up at the same time.

I think economics is of such a tremendous importance that the approach to it should be of a more sensible and cauatious nature and with a very, very firm desire of picking the best brains we have available, not just to have a public session where these best brains very often do not get a chance t1.1 speak at. all, or if they do~ · they are not heard and certainly not listened to. Opposition, this is of course the first year that I have been in opposition, some people would like to hope that perhaps I will be here for a long time in opposition, but that remains to be seen.

But, oppositions are only opposinff and never offerin~ any sensible solutions or any sensible alternatives. I know that what I am about to say a great many people will disar,ree me, but in any case, I am going t8 throw out these suggestions, just as an illustration, I thin k over on this side of the House ~re can do more than just oppose. First of all, and this seems to me to be a prime requisite of Newfoundland at the present time, we have a t'Jp heavy machine, I think to begin with the Cabinet of tne Province is outrageously large.

I think ten or twelve men would be just as capable of doing the t.·ork, as are the present ei~hteen. And I would hope that if ever another government comes into being that the Cabinet size would be reduced and that in so doing de~art~ents, reformation of departrnents,and divisions _now would be drawn together for a more efficient workin~ unit.

I can think for instance, the hon. ~linis tcr of C01!1111UI:tity 'and .-Social. · _. , Development ~ave a given learned addre~s the other night, as I told him it was rather en!dite, I hate words like.Fhat is this one they are usin~ all the time now about services'~ which is, infrastructure, ~:r, cannot even remember the word:_ It is that type of word, · ·it is just the sort of thing whicb to me is drawing a ·.

·. .. ~: - - -""~·· • . . cloth over what is a clear subject. But, the very title Community and Social _. Development is in my opinion wrong, because the crying need of this Province should not be stressed with social. It should h~ stressed as Community Development. Actually, our communities arP. not bad places in which to live, m~ny of them are very, very fine places in which to live. The basic problem of these communities is that the people in them have nothing to do. They have no means of earning a livelihood, and this is where I differ with a great many people on the other side of the Rouse.

In these small settlements around the country, ever so small an !ndu,stry would satisfy the people and p,ive them a good means of livelihood. You do not have to have a multi-million dollar ind~stry to support a small town like Belleoram. If you had something in a place like that which was bringing in several hundred thousand dollars in wages, then you would have a very, very happy community indeed in that place, and I can think of many,many more in my district and around the country. And this is where I agree with the idea of Community Development.

But, Social and Community Development is rather apt to put it in the field of socialo~ists, and people vTho are, as we term lonp: _ haired, deep thinkers and dreamers to some degree, who are rather apt to put the emphasis on the social aspect of the thinr. I feel that the economic aspect of the development is by far the most important, but the social aspect 'Will work therr.sel\'es out -once the economic base has been p!l'ovided. I do feel for that reason that this particular department, as a department could be abolished. And it should be brought in under a planning division of the Department of Finance.

Because all of this is going to cost money, ~nd to see that the money is spent properly and ...,ell .. 'Will he the nrime objective in creating somethinr, which will last. Now there is no voint in just dishing out money on perhaps· a scheme that some sociolor.ist dreams of, unless that scheme has a practical end and a practical purpose. And I always felt that when I ~as a }!inis ,ter of Finance· that within the department there could be built up a very, very stron~ division of economists and people who feel with vigor, the people who look into ~hat an expenditure really means and what it will produce.

And this - is the type of person that I think should be lookinr into Col!'llllunity and Social llevelopment. I am not passinp: any 't>ouquets to my hon. friend the member for St. ­ John's West, but I think a man of his type or several men of his type would seem the right type of person to head up this kind of thin~. because he would look at it. in a hard noised, very direct busine~s like !l'anner. And would se.e that:· we p.ot good value for every cent we spent.

The Department of· Labrador Affairs, I am going to make myself even ' ~impossible than some of the Ministers across the other side of the House hy gain~ on as I am. But, the department of Labrador Affairs, while I think is a very ~ great complement to the people of Labrador. And possibly from a political standpoint is very necessary because after all Labrador does feel that it is a neglected part of this Province, and they need to have their identity sho"'ll at every possible chance.

But, I do feel that the Department of Labrador Affairs could well be combined with a greatly stren~thened division of Newfoundland and Labrador Affairs. I would replace the Department of Provincial Affairs, with a Department of Newfoundland Provincial and :tunicipal Affairs drawing in the whole thing into this one department, with separate divisions. Because under all that the development of these areas what needs to be done could be emphasized within divisions without having a necessity of a whole great clumsy depa~tmental setup. You know the law, where once you start sonething, it just keeps adding.

The fellow who wrote the book about it, I read it, it was very amusing. "Parkinson's Law" .. But this is happening all away along the line. And in our state and circumstances, and in our need to conserve our money, we need to condense end draw in all of our activities into better operating, more efficient and more practical control units. _ And I would feel that it is a very necessary step. I ~ not think, I am sure it would not hurt t~e - present employees in government services.

In fact with a combination of this sort of approach and the public administration classification and posts, you would then get the top brains condensed into an all out effort in these various divisions. To pick on another department, my hon. friend,the old feildian_ across the way, the hon. the Ninister of rl!blic Works. I would like to see his department very ~reatly strengthened. That is a very vital and essential department of Government. I would like to see the department ~iven strong divisions of engineering, purchasing and building control.

Now why do I bring purcha&inR into that, because I would abolish the Department of Supply, and bring it in under this one overall department. So that the purchashing which does fall much into the same category as building J. :.. __. . :- . control and so on, its all the business operation could well be conducted-under .. ·-· p l the Department of Public Works. But, even more important than that particular division, is a very, very strong en~incering division because I would venture to bet if you look into what has Leen done throughout this Province in the last tuenty

!larch 2nd. 1970 Tape fl 140 t .I'K- 5 years in the '~ay of public buildinp;s and so on, that thousands upon tens of thousands of dollars could ha~e been saved by proper engineering and study of the structures that were created. It has been a hodge podge of fast building and many, many mistakes have been made. We see them all around us. And this should have been much, much better controlled by a very, very strong engineering division. I think it would be money well spent, if ~e had within that department a very well qualified, well staffed division of engineerinp,.

I then would go back and combine Health and l·!clfare. Because Health and Welfare,in my opinion, do much the same function right throughout the Province. They both operate instutitions,it is not much difference whether you operate a hospital or a lloyles Home, or a childrens home, or a home for handicapped children or something like this. It co~ld all come under the same division, and as the Minister is very fond of pointing out, the Y.inister> of l-'elfare, a lot of their services are not just related to the providing of social assistance, that is an important function of the department.

But, an awful lot of their functions are related to looking after sick and disabled people. And in my opinion, this would better come under Health. And~ can see the joining of these two departments which could be very effective indeed. Now the key of all my remarks on the combinations of departments and cutting down the size of the ministerial staff and so on, would relate to the Department of Finance. We have seen the Auditor General's Department

MR.

EARLE: The Auditor General_ •s repor.t, and some of the rer.tarks in ·. it are . . to say the least very disturbin~- The ~riticism last·year and again this year is most disturbing. 1 noticed in one parar,raph here that the Auditor General himself said that the Treasury Board did not permit him to get the staff which he needed - this 1~as .true. 1 .t~as Chairman of the Treasury Board at the time - there were six other ministers on it with me, and the reason for was that we were told to hold the line that we were trying to keep expenditure down - and we were trying to hold expenditures of Government within range.

Not only his department, but many other departments suffered from shortage of staff and they could not fill posts: vhich were approved·. by the Civil Service Commission we just put ti!cl:t~~·<'s on because 1~e had to cut back somewhere on this growning expenditure. I felt at the time as Hin.li$ .ter of Finance that tl1e most vital department of Government which need\;e;d staff was the Department of Finance, and possible some of these errors w.llrrich had been reported by . the Auditor General would not have occured had ~ had the staff to look after them, and the properly qualified pecple.

The Department of Finance~ like many other departments growing up over the years has a certain amount : <Of dead wood in it which in time will have to be phased out - but in the highliw complicated and complex operation of finance today, you need very exper ·t: ,people in that field. This causes me to ..... say at the moment that 1 am terribll:y distressed and horrified actually that the leading man, and the Deputy Hin:ii:ster who served under me has ten.dered his .. resignation. 1 had nothin& but the: highest regard and respect for him.

I felt he was doing an excellent job. lfor Newfoundland and 1 am sorry to see him go, I think it is going ~o be ver'}' ,, very difficult indeed to get a man of his calibt~ to take up that job, b~ause as I said at the, time he worked under great stress, very trying conditio ,mz; and it is not going to be easy to get a good man to replace him, but it is wery, very essential. It is a great loss to Newfoundland, and 1 do think tha>r:: every effort must be made to get the top best man we possibly can to replac~ ar.

Groom. · In the Department of Finamoe for I think, it Yas · six months before- I left, he had no deputy or assistant' :Deptuy ~linister in charge of revenue - but revenue is the life-blooJ of the Prmvince, if you cannot f;Ct revenue in1 you do not exist. And some of this non~collection of taxes . and so on was v.ery much due to the fact that the persomnel were not there to do it. 1 feel that one of the greatest obligations of (Government is to continue and strengthen (2Lf· .

t the Department of Finance so that lt is :literally the controlling- body of the Covernmunt.

I feel quit;.: sincerely that monies that ~•e will be ~:;iven to spend- from Utta,,ra in till' fnturc, many questions will be asked about then- they 1-rill not just be passed out on a pl<Jtter to be spent on something \.'hich •has no visible enJ - and therefor~ our ccunomfstti and people who control the spending of money and study the best means by which it should be spent are really the most essential people in this Government. l"his is why I stress so particularly the D~partment of Finance as being the backbone of the Government.

There is a suggestion somcvherc along the line that Treasury Board Chairm .. n be not the :Iinister of Fin;:mce, ~.rell I occupied both seats when I was there and I think that he soul <.1 - I think that the :!in is ter of Finance should be Chairman of ti1e Treasury Board because there is nobody sitting in the position of the ~linister of Finance that from day to day and hour to hour almost has more idea of t-rhat is going on by 1-1ay of expenditure. And in Trea~ury ooard decisions arc mauc of course, affecting huge blocks of expenditure in the Province.

So who bettar should there be than the Minister of Finance to chair ti1at Treasury GoarJ. I do not agree with splitting it up - I think it would be a had mov~. Finally of the Department of Finance, if I wer~ Premier, and I ~ never likely to be I ad:nit it - but I would never appoint a man with Premiership ambition,; as :·linister of Finance. llecause, a Hinister of Fina."1ce is with his ot-rn colleagues rather unpopular. lie has to put the screws on.

In the public eye he io; the scruge who keeps the money from being wasted - and he is not the type of person who is going to get tributes or three cheers for what he docs. lie ha~· a !tard job to do, and a very difficult one. If his decisions are influenced at all by political considerations he cannot do his . _ job properly. I feel that the :-Iinister of Finance is in a very, very delicate position - he should be a man with the ability to try and divorce his political ambitions and his political thinking from the absolutely economic necessities which he faces from day to day.

Now again I think in ti1is Province ~ore are not using something which is very, very valuable and could be of even greater valu~ to the Province - in the Nernorlal University. lie are brlnginr. in to that University, some of the most highly qualified scientist:; and other people economists and so on, who would teach over Lhere and hnve a lot of time . for research and so on - and are doing an excellent job I think with the students. But · I · wonder how many .. ; / 7 -t- .,__.,

• • r. ... .:.: .. ;. :. .. !: ! ;: .. ~· times we use them in seeking advice on some times - Government problems which are of a nature that relate to a person of their particular background. For instance, I think that sometime before the trouble in Placentia Bay over the red herring actually got before the scientific people in Ne:::~orial University - I had been tolJ, I do not know hmJ correct it is, but I have been told that they had p~ople over there some of the best in the world to discuss - examine that problem and perhaps to come up with some of the answers.

Well, why did we not use them1 Why did we not call upon them? We are bringing them into the country, and they are here- they are available . and these are the people that should be consulted. I think the university on the folhl\.-ing matters should be a guide arm for the Government. Certainly on educational matters, they are the background and the corner stone you might say of our educational system. Scientific matters, we do not have any Government people of scientific training that can answer some of the questions that these fellOl;s can, and they should most certainly be consulted in this.

Environmental matters which is a study which they arc conducting at some great length over there, I think they should be consulted on that. Certainly on social matters, because they have a very forward social course over there - and this is where soQe of our best social service people receive their training. And cultural matters of course, culture without saying anyt~inG relates closely to a university. In these particular fields, I do not thijilk that 1~e are takin\ advantage of the university personnel that 11e s\ould.

In fact, for my money I do not think ti1at some o( our best qualified people throughout the general public are listened to often enougit - and 1 vould like to see them brought into the picture much more fre1uen tly - much more_ of. ten and ce_rta 'inly paid much more attention to. RON. E.H.ROBERTS (Hinistcr of Health): permit a question? MR. EARLl:: Yes, certainly Hr. Speaker, Hould the hon.gentleman MR.

ROBERTS: I ,..onder·if when the han, gentle~n was Hiniste~ of Public Welfare, whether he consulted socirtl welfare, but I know that I did when I was Hinister of Public Welfare -,but he preceded me in the portfolio - the social welfare people at the university to whom he has just made reference I believe Sir, _ in his remarks Hhich ve have_ .been following with great attentiveness Sir. Yes, ~orne of these people were consulted, of course -they were ... c.zc

. ,. - ·•·~ - · .... -,._ L'. • I • • . c. C C • • •· very closely l1R. ROBERTS: By the minister? liR. EARLE: not by the minister as such. In my day - perhaps the han. gentleman knew more about it than I did - I will leave that to him to decide. }IR. ROBERTS: I consulted uith ~hem, but the hon. member did not MR. EARLE: Perhaps he did consult with many more of these - but I do not know how that got through the Gove~ent actually in solving some of the problems • • Perhaps he was ia successful in bringing it in - I certainly was not. }IR.

ROBERTS: Perhaps I was a better informed ~inister of Public Welfare / Quite likely, I think the han, gentleruart" was probably better }ffi.. EARLE: informed on a lot of things - infact he talks ' as·~if - he must be better informed so I defer to him in that case. He is certainly far better educated and he is probably much better informed, but I think on balance the conduct of the Department of Welfare t~hen I W'as Minister, and the conduct of it when he was minister 'is. not too much to point at, in that perhaps the staff of the department could ansW'er that question better than anybody else.

AnyhoW', I did not mean to be diverted in this particular thing. There is I feel within Government and there has been for some time, a very, very strong desire to depict for our people - and to show our people a grandeur - I mentioned this word before, but an ostentation which sometimes is far above what we can affo~d.

The people, particularly in the smaller places around the country are more interested in their particular little problem and their place, than they are in seeing somethirag grand and glorious develop from a Government - SOU!"Ce, I wilf not refer to W'hat I already spoke about in this connection because it is water under the bridge in these arts and cultural centres and this sort of thing. But there are a lot of · thin~s t<hich do not: run .into_ the many: many millions that these things do.

But little activities of Governr.1.ent and so on, all sorts of frills and ostentations which I am quite sure could be abolished and could save the Province many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars.: Now the word priorities was always a ra'ther-~fr01rned upo.n Yard when I was sitting on the other side, but I still think it- has gre:at significance in · . . __ , this Province and there is no doubt - unybody docs not have to stop to think at · all that the priorities for i~e~o~foundland are quite easy to distin-g4jish in the follo1ving order in my opinion - Industries, small and large is the first priority for- this island whicn interprcteil means Jobs. i~ow,how we go about that, and how we provide it is the only basis_ o.f our disa~reemcnt.

Our disa~;reemcnt is on the free -wide and handsome handout

. ... . ·. •. '" I•' L .. : '·. ' ., . ~ ' .,,,..,. ..... -~ .. • • r ..__ " '-' L--" ... ~ ·• '- • as ag.:lins t the care ful,s tudious approach' to. th<! thing vit.h absolutely essential planning before decisions are reached. Education uitiwut question both vocational and academic must take second priority, because the industrial development of the Province most certainly cannot get very far •~ithout a vast improvement in our educational system.

Thirdly, I place as the t:1ird priority this idea of cot:UUunity development because, l. do not know how much further resettlement will have to go around t:1e Province of :-lcwfoundlnnd, ho11 1'1uc:1 is nec-essary, but I am quite convinced that there is a Lnge part of :Jewfoundland - nnd a large number of settlements in :\ewfoundlnnd tl1at can live - tile peorle of which can live a very enjoyable existence in tilt,ir Ol·m iim!lediatt' an:!a, providing something can be done to develop these cor.lmuniti.c,s. I think we sbould go very, very slowly indeed from here on in encouraging people to leave tlte;'ll.

All of the other needs of Governnent I tldnk to a g.reater or lesser degree will fall under these three headings of priorities which I have outlined. But Hr. Spenker, may I close my address to clay by saying that, in order that any· • priority can amount to anything, the planninG for il u;ust be careful, accurate and unbiased. Thank You. BON. J·.R·,S}!ALL\.'OOD (Premier): i·lr. Speaker, I do not intend to take much time replying to the han. gentleman who just sat dmm. There are one or two points he made in his speech today, and on Friday to t~hich I think an answer ought to be made.

He expressed the opinion here today that the Minister of Finance ought to be the gentleman in charge of the Treasury Board. :Hr, Speaker, although he t~as Ninistcr of Finance for a year or so, a year and a half, he evidently still does not know what has happened - and that is that the Government have taken away from the Uinister of Finance control over the spending of the Government and put it in the hands of the Treasury Board, and that the !-linister of Finance as 11inister of Finance, as a member of the Cabinet that is another matter, but as ninister of Fin-ance.-tle. is just ano.ther member of the Treasury Board.

It is commonly the case throughout the llritish Common"Wealth that the head of ·the Treasury Board is not the Chancellor of the exchequer or the ;-anister of Finance or the Provincial Treasurer or whatever is the title used throughout Canada. i{e are following that practice in l\ewfoundland the British practice, and the Canadian practice at Otta\.13"1 and the 'l!racti.ce generally throughout the British Commonwealth, that the head of the Treasu-ry · c;, .< Board is not the Hinister of Fit.ance. There will be legislat~on ln the present

r,., . : ..:, session to give effect to our decision to.m4ke President of_ the Treasury Board a minister who is not !Hnister of Finance - although the Minister of Finance will of course be a member of t,!l~ ,_ bt::!~!'d• The hon. gentleman does not seem to be aware of that. Now Mr.

Speaker, it does not matter how small or how big, it is the principle, it is the system, it is the technique, it is the methodology of doing it - it is the same here - it will be the same here as generally throughout the British Com1110nwealth, The hen. gentleman in his catalogue of reforms suggests a merger of t'"o of the largest departments of state in this Province - the Department of Health and the Department of Welfare back into one department as indeed it was, they were at one time. The Department of Welfare has 1,100 persons operating in it, and they spend $42 million a year.

The Department of Health has 3,000 persons w-orking in it, and they spend $60 million a year - so that is $102 million spent by those two departments. One third of the entire expenditure of the Newfoundland Government by these tva departments. With over 4,000 persons employed in them, you could merge them, you could merge them, and you 'Would save about one deptuy minister, and you might save ten or t'Welve other officials. MR.. RODERTS: You will not even save a deputy minister MR. SHALWOOD: It is questioRed if you would save a deputy minister.

It is questioned if you would save one rncr::ber of the t\lo staffs of over 4,000 persons. Indeed, i'lr. Speaker, there is an urgent need, a pressing need for more staff not less- more in these two great departments, and .! am afraid that that reform would not accomplish very much. The hen. gentleman wiw just sat dmm told us here in this House that in·connection with the last Jlut!get Speech this document here, of 120 pages­ fools cap - 120 pages of this Budr;et Specch,he is the author of sixtecll 'Words. He wrote sixteen 1.1ords of the Budget Speech. }lr. Speaker, I wonder why he told the House this?

Hon. memhers must have been ~1onderiug why he told the House - that he was in fact himself the author of only sixteen vords . of these thousands of words in the lludget Speech, that he orougi .l t down. _ lie _brought it do~m_ and ve were all witnesses to that - we saw him. we he~rd hi~, bring do'vn the Budget Speech. We cannot help being curious to know wl1y he insi!<ts on telling us that he himself wrote only sixteen •.:ords of the speech. In the first place Hr. Speaker. it 1-1as not supposed to be a personal document. It was not supposed to he a personal testimony.

It was not supposed to be a bit of personal evidence, It was tl~C; ·nudget Speech of this Province and of this Government and he tJas the !!inister · of Finance and he brour;ht it {, <.. C)

":-.:._, - .:. •. ; I' l .:..-. .J down, why then did he tell the !louse that he had written -only sixteen ,words of it? Does he nean to tell us now - does he wa11t us now to believe that these sixteen words were the only words in the nudget Speech that he meant? Did he mean only the sixteen words that he wrote? Did he no.t mean all _the words of the Budget Speech that he brought down himself in person? That the other words that he did not deliver - he delivered without meaning them - those that he did not write himself - that he did not believe them?

Why did he tell us that he was the author of only sixteen words of the Budget Speech? And having delivered the Budget Speech Hr. Speaker, in this House - why did he take credit for the Speech and act as though he had w7itten every word of it - that is how he acted - he acted as though he has in fact written every last word of the Budget Speech. Then in the next case, why does he think it matters - why does he think it matters Hr. Speaker, who wrote the actual t.rords of the Budget Speech in view of the fact that the Budget Speech is the policy and pliilosop:1y of the Government.

And it is very properly brought down by the ~linister of Finance - although of course, in most Provinces across Canada the Xinister of Finance is the Premier, The Premier of the Province holds the portfolio of Finance because, of course, the Budget Speech does express the policy and philosophy of the Government of the Province or of the nation as the case might be. l-IR. UICiO!A.o.'l!: Would the hon. the Premier permit a question? MR. S~IALLWOOD: Yes MR. HICK~t\N: Would he advise the House of the number of Premiers other than the Premier of British Columbia whi is }linister of Finance in Canada. ~m.

CROSBIE: Yes, that would be an interesting one ~m. S}!ALLWOOD: Yes, the Pr~mier of Quebec ~1R. CROSBIE: No he is not }IR. S}!ALUlOOD: \~ell normally he is • usually he is liR. CROSBIE: He is not now MR. S1·lALLI-IuOD: Yes ne is, hes he is, and the Premier of Nova Sea t,ia v~ry .- commonly ~m. CROSniE: He is ~ot now, not now J-IR.S!-!ALLHOOD: It sometimes happens ti1at a Premier in a Canadian Province has someone else.

I did, I \Jas :linister of Finance of this Province for a11hile, but normally my practice has been to invite _ one o:f my - some other colleague of mine to assume the portfolio, and it l>Omcti !.l ~S happens in Canadian Provinces that the Prer.:licr doos tlle sa:nl! thlnr:, that he Invites .some co_lleague to !)old C] C'

.. , . . . .. ' t . ·- -- ... .... ·-- - ·. !!: the office, but whether the Premier holds the office himself or invites a colleague to do it, it is untldnkahlc -quite unthinkable in the Dritish system - under the British constitutional sy3tem - it quite unthinkable that the Hinister of Finance would bring down a lludeet at variance with the sentiments, <tnd the p:1ilosophy :mel the policy of the Premier, the Leader of the adminsitration. Ilecause, the Budget Speech has to be - it h<Js to be there is no choice - it has to be the expression of Governmental policy and Governmental philosophy. HR.

RODJ:RTS: It is equally unthinkable that it does not represent any member of a Government uho docs not. ••••••••• MR. S}!ALWOOD: It is unthin~<tble that the lludgct Speech should be brought down in the House, in the people's P.ouse and not represent the view point of every individual member of the Cabinet. BecausE', any minister of the Crown who would sit in the !louse and hear his colleague bring d01m the Budget Speech with ~~hich he disagreed and had not resi!;ned on it •~ould be a most extraordinarily ~eculiar kind of a minister. Mr.

Speaker, here is the lludget Speech,on page four he says - the minister say "I think it is realistic to say" he said "I think it is realsitic to say that from the educational point of view we are better prepared to face the future than "e ever were in the past." Now he said that "I" On page eleven, again, he says in his Budget Speech "Nr. Speaker, I want to lllake it abundantly clear that this Government do not regard with a complacent spirit the encouraging figures that I have just related." that was " I " the Minister of Finance on p.:1ge eleven. On page twelve, he says "Hr.

Speaker, 1 have been at some consider.:1ble trouble to come to an estimate of the grand total sum of money and so ancl so, and so .:md so." On page fourteen, again, he says "the estimate I have made for the twenty year period is as follows." I have made, the estimate I have made, Page sixteen, he · says "I think it would be reasonable to estimate that about one third of the total was received in the first ten years of Confederation and so on, and so on." On page eighty- one 0 he says this. on page eighty-one, the him. gentleman who · just sat down said "Mr.

Speaker, in my abbreviated review of the past twenty years, giveri at the outset of my remarks today. I showed that we are now incomparably better placed to launch a gre.:1t forward movement in our Province than : we would have considered possible twenty years ago. We are as a people, better educated, better fed, better housed, better clothed. \Je are better informed, more alert minded and more confident than we have ever been. Our transportation system has been ' enormously strengthened, our communications system has been vastly improved, ,- J /

t.. !h.: t . , \', . ' r: .~. : ~_; \ I •, • • our municipal organization is beyond all comparisons stronser and better than it ever vas. We have more and better hospitals than we ever had. We have a dramat .ic new electric power program, a vast development of our mining resources and a large number of very modern fish plants that have been built since the coming of Confederation. All of these things in the aggregate give us, as a Province and as a people an unheard of strength and readiness for the next great forward march.

Then finally on page 119, the han. gentleman said this; He s.aid it, who ever wrote it - he brought it down here in this House. He took responsibility for it. " It is our clear understanding of the final and supretle importance of this problem that brinp,s us to tne central theme of our policy as a government; the thc!Tie that it is economic development that must be our all-absorbing passion in ;~eufoundland. It is economic development that must COIIUIIand the best brains and the most ardent spirits of our Province.

It is economic development and economic development alone that can provide the honest and enduring dollars to pay for true greatness in this Province. True, we can attempt to wiu greatness by paying for it with handouts from the National Capital but there is no enduring future in that • We can turn our oacks on lt but ti1at would not be profitable. · lfe can adopt a policy of timid resolution, of inflexible r~solution, we can go at t~e matter of economic development witi1 implacable courage and determination.

And it is our view in this Governmen't that anything else (anything else but what?) but implacable couragt! and determination, anything else \:ould fall short of accor.tplishing the ~reat purpose ve seek. 'Ihe words then must be "Go fon~ard ~ewfoundl;and!" The second ~~enty years of our union tvi.th Canada becons . with that great challenge; may we have the stoud hearts, lively imagination and inflexible willpot•er to accept the challenge and realize our destiny.

In this challenge lies nothing less than the futur.e. of our young people, the security of our niiddleaged and the cpt:~fort : of our old. l.n our tventy- .. ~ year advance since Confederation the die has been cast - progress or perish." Now he said that, he brought that dotm in this House and not only that but in the debate that followed he defended it and not only that but, Sir;, he was intervic"'"cd on the radio, immediately afterwards. And again and again and again in that radio interview he defended his

..... ~. :. March 2, 1970 Tape no. 142 Page 5 budget; he defended every position he had taken in it. He was interviewed, for example, by Hr. John Carter, a reporter of the "Evening Telegram", who was engaged by the " CBC" for the purpose of interviewing the Minister, the then Hinister of Finance, and again and again (and I have a tape of the interview, by the t~ay, of the radio interview with the bon, gentleman) and again and again in that speech he refers to "my budget" to "my budget. •: ;,I said in my budget," All through his interview it was "my budget." Then the interviewer, }!r. Carter, said to him: "Hr.

Minister, there is a phrase in your speech which says 'Progress or Perish'." And the reporter remarked that the Premier fre­ quently used the term "Develop or Perish" and he asked the hen. gentleman if there were any difference between what the Premier so commonly said -"Develop or Perish" - and what he had said in his. budget speech - "Progress or Perish" - and he said; "No, not really.

It was just the Premier's way of expressing the same thing." And all through the interview, all through the debate in this Rouse, this budget speech which he ~ow tells us he wrote as to sixteen words only of it, he defended it. ~ defended it as his statement of the Government's policy. Now why does ibe come out and tell us, why, why, what c:o:upulsion-was there in him, what Lamentable, what surprising lack of knowledge, of understanding of, of $rasp of the British Constitutional System, under which we operate, lead him to make that statement? To begin with he did say 1!. t. ··r- ~.: =-'--

-: . . •• • C' : .~ · z•·u March 2, 1970 ' T-ape 1114'3 MR. S~U100D: It is a lamentable breach of Cabinet secrecy. A lamentable • breach. Does anybody suppose in this House that the Rudget Speech that is brought down in the Parliament of Canada, has been vritten word for word by the Minister of Finance. Does anybody seriously suppose ~hat? Well then he is entirely wrong if he does.

Does anybody suppose the Rudget Speech is normally)ordinarily1 acr~ss Canada written by the Minister of Finance, or the Premier, or the Provincial Treasurer. or whatever is the title - Does anybody suppose that the Budget Speech brought down by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the United Kingdom is a document that has been written by the Chancellor of the Exchequer? Does not everybody remember the famous anecdote of Lord Randolph Churchill when he was Chancellor of the Exche_ouer - the father of the great Sir Winston Churcnill.

He was reading this -Budget; Speech and it was full of figures with decimal points, twenty-eight point one:~ or seventy-nine point six. And he got fed up with it - and he is famous for the exclaimation he made Mr. Speaker, ''what are these damri dots?" This is ~ Chancellor of the -Exchequer - "what are these damn dots?" Now he was teat:im~ up the author of that Rud12:et Soeech. It does not matter who wr£~es it. 1t does not matter who vrites it. But who writes the Bud~;et S?eech -· ::~::boc!y ever St!!'gested that chartrred accountants wrote Mr. Gordon's speech.

If it '~as suggested that they were brought in to help draft certain infoErwation and out together certain figures, but no one ever suggested that a couple of chartered accountants in Toronto, or chartered accountants from any other part of Canada vere brouRht in to write that s~eech. And nobody knows who wrote the Speech. I would suspect that it w~~ written by maybe. twenty different persons, at least twenty different pe~~ns.

I would suspect that the minister of this, and the minister of that, and ~he minister of the other, each wrote a part of the speech, dealing with som~ particular aspect of the program and the policy and the philosophy of the GeNernment, with which each minister woul4 _ , 1 be most familiar. And I wovld suspec~ ~hat ministers are invited to make contributions to the Budget Speech, as ~hey are invited to make contributions to the Speech from the Throne. But, who does it, who '~rites it, is certainly a Cabinet secret, about vhich every minister has taken an oath '®n the Bible - a sole~ oath on the Bible

.. :. r- ~. U I n' t.._ f.' to maintain secrecy. And if you ca~:-. nick and choose which oaths you will break - if you can pick and choose - you will kiss the llible and take thiR over tha .t, _. and if you have the right to pick and choose which oath you will break, it is a peculiar state of affairs to say ~he very least. The han. 11:entleman across thought very highly of me up to a few weeks ago, very highly. He thou~ht I ~ the man to be Premier.

Here is what he said, in print, in public, in print - "'I feel, the hon •. gentleman said, ·I feel that Premier Smallwood should con~~ue as the leader of the Liberal Party in Newfoundland, and as the head of the G;:overnment, because" - now he. giyes three reasons, and he numbers them - 1,~ ... 3 "should continue as the leader of the liberal Party of Newfoundland and as head of the Government, because (1) his record shows that he has worked and fought incessantly for the advancement and progress of Newfoundland without spatring himself, and never giving in to disappointment and discouragement".

That is one reason why .he thought I should continue as leader and as Premier·..

The second reaSO!\ (2) '"He has abundant health and energy backed by the 2ongest experience as leader of the Government with which to continue t~ 'snearhead our struggle - to lift Newfoundland to even greater achievements'', And his third reason was; (3) "And above all, he strives constantly tao overcome Newfoundland's greatest basic problem - more and more employment ·· for its people, and nlaces that ob1ective ahead of all others.• This is the sentiment of th~ hon. gentleman up to within three or four. say five weeks of the elections of the leader of the Liberal Party, my re-election.

This was his sentiment~ The han. gentleman went up to Fortune Bay with me, and he campaigned with me ~•!hen I went up there as a candidate for the leadership of the Liberal Party. He, accompanied me and he went around with me, and he wrote that pie.ce , and he was; an advocate and a supporter of mine. And suddenly four or five weeks before the election, he suddenly became a supporter of somebody else, and: ·then a few weeks after that he became a Tory. I seem Mr.

Speaker, to be fa.:.t~d, I seem to be fated to experience that sort of thing - I seem to be fated' ~ The hon. the member for Humber East resented bitterly a statement I made out : in Corner Brook at a public meeting, when I said that I had dra~ged him in tw the House of Assembly on my coat-tail

·. March 2, 1970 Tape 8143 Page 3 He resented that. That was not true. It was not true that I had brought him in, lifted him, carried him as a baby into the House of Assembly. That was not true, he resented it. He did not like it at all. He denied it. He denied it - I am misquoting the hon. gentleman? Let us have it ~ correct MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. SMALU:OOD: I am quite cheerfully willing to yield to the hon. gentleman.

The bon. gentleman, I suggest to your honour, if he wishes to ask me a question - he cannot make a speech, but if he t.;ishes to ask me a Question, and if he bas one-third of the brains that he needs to frame this question, he can frame it ·· he can ask me a question, and he can frame it in such a way as to put the answer in my mouth. He is a lawyer - MR. WELLS: I am quite prepared to do that Mr. Soeaker - I t.;ould like to ask the hon. gentleman a question if I may?

Does the hon. the Premier not recall that his statement in fact was; that he dragged me in screaming against my ~il) on one occasion - does he not recall that? And that statement I refuted as being wrong - Does he not recall that I have acknowledged publicly on many occasions - MR. SPEAKER: Order.please! MR. SMALUIOOD: He does not mind, he is going to finish anyhow - he does not care about you Your Honour. MR. WELLS: I was permitted to ask a question Your Honour - MR. SMALU.'OOD: And he ended up by making a speech Mr. Speaker, we are beginning to have particioatory democracy in the Chamber.

The citizens are beginning to join with us, and I do not think it is right. I think it ought to be stopoed right in the bud. ~!SPEAKER (NOEL): Order please! I have exnlained on other occasions that visitors to the galleries are not permitted to take

part in the proceedings, or to make their presence felt bv applause or laughter or movement or in·any other way. MR. SMALLI.)()On: I do that Mr. Speaker, and I did it when other hon. members were speaking. The hoD. member for Humber F.ast told us in his speech in this debate that there was nothing whatever in the Speech from the Throne. Nothing - except the words "Mr. Speaker" and '"members. of the hon. Rouse of Assembly" • . ..;

• • :. .• 1. That was all that was in it. Nothing in it he said, beyond those words that His Honour the Governor uttered "Hr. Sneaker - he bows to me - he bows to the Leader of the Opposition- and hon. members of the House of Assembly." That was all that was in the Hud~et Speech, according to the hon. gentleman. Nothing in it - there was no reference in it to anything of any imoortance such as for example, our engaging an eminent lawyer to put to the test our claim that we own the off-shore oil and mineral r.ight _s.

That is not important - Such as for example, the reference to shell-housin~ and co-operative condominium housing - that is not important -nothing in it, such as the Education Acts, such as the Economic Conference, such as the Labrador Iron Ore Exoansion - such as the introduction of a great net-1' ?urchasi.ng system for the Government. Such as the Legislation to authorize the Government to aopoint an ombudsman - such as le~islation to control house rents - such as the reference to DREE. None of these of importance. The Speech was empty, except for the words ''Mr. Speaker and members of the han.

House of Assemblv." Tha~ was all that was in the S~eech. Mr. Speaker, the hof. gentleman then told us of the millions of gallons of vater that were spilling over the dam in 1\av d'Espoir. He said we do not need power that vill be developed at Bay d'Espoir.

And then again, in spite of that, although there is more po~er tha~ we need hetng develoned already right now at Bay d'Espoir with the water snilling over the d~m, not needed, not Renerating any paver - although there is more ~ower being generated now alrea~ at Bay d'Esnoir -we are soending forty, fifty, sixty millions more to build - or the Power Commission arP., to build a ~reat new Power Plant at Duff's, Seal Cove near Holyrood. What is it for he says? He do not need this never, and yet we are building more at ~eal Cove. We do not need it, we cannot sell it. Who is going to use it?

And what are we gain~ to do with it? These were his statements and his questions. Well I am going to deal with that. As.for the iron ore he says, there is no liklihood of that happening. That; is it - that is it - The Governor in the Sneech from the Throne says - the hon, gentleman said, there is no liklihood of this happening. And he probably also said that it vas no 'liklihood of DREE hapoening either - nrohablv - he does not believe, he has very little belief that there is p.oing. to be a great paner mill at Stephenville. (J?

He has the greatest possible skeotie"iSTQ about that, and as for an oil refinery · '·· : and _a paper mill at Come-by-Chance. ~e just lauehs that out of the Chamber. Yes that is right, he is extremely &oubtful about the paper mill in Stephenville. That is ri~ht. And he also said in h is speech that there is no liklihood of that happening, that is the develop~nt of the iron ore in Labrador. And he also had another statement, he talked about the Government's waste and extravagance, such as stu ~ ents' allovances and mothets' allo~ances. Waste and extravagance.

I noted it wen he said it - I repea l it now, I reoeat his statement -waste and extravaganc~, such as students' allo~ances and mothers' allowances. I repeat it now Mr. Spea~er, to give it more currencv, to give it further currency so that the hon. ~ntleman will never be able to get off the hook. He cannot deny it, it is tm Hansard. He does not deny it, he confirms it again here now. This is what I warn~ - this is what I am lookin!!: for. I am looking for indorsation from him tlimt I am quoting him correctly. These words will come back-. Then again in his speech b! refers to John Shaheen. John Shaheen.

No~ my ham. colleague, the''Minister of Health will deal ~ith the hon . member for Hum~r East, so far as concern the remarks of the hon. member for Humber East wit!i ·, re~ard to John Shaheen and the agreements. Hy hon. friend, the Hinister of Health . ~~ill deal with him, and if the hon. wember for Hu~ber " East does not ~ uit a~~~~ out with his tail between his legs , then he has a ~hicker hide than even I ~hink he has, and I think it is thick enough. • .o-;:..J 0 ... t ·I He will do it. He will do :lit.

The hon. ·gentleman had better just sit humbly and modestly and hear it, ~is hon. gentleman ~ho speaks of Mr. Shaheen, this bon. member for Humber EluBt, who speaks of Mr. Shaheen as a man . . ,.. -..... getting $5,000,000 from the Government ~erived by taxing chocolate bars • . That is right, that is ri!!:htt. He does : :not deny it. John Shaheen got $5,000,000, and where did it come f.irom ? It came from taxing chocolate bars, this $5,000,000. Now this is hi~~ statesmenship. This is profound, it .. _, t:: ......... is deep- it is thoughtful, it is toler;ant, · it is catholic (c).

This is the • •• l. ....... '"' .• real stuff of statesmenship, that John Shaheen got $5,000,000 - · he ~ot it - ; c - ;• he was given $5,000,000, there is no do.wbt to go a big spree- no doubt to .-go on a big drunk. No doubt to entertain ~11 his friends. No doubt just to pocket it and put it to his own personal use. -And what a scandalous thin~ it is, that ""''····· •:·i b t this stupid Government should give John• .. Shaheen $5 -~000,000 •for -his own - peTson~l :.

• • .. '! '. March 2, 1970 Tape Dl43 Page 6 t JW use, havill.g forced -had to go out and tax chocolate b.ars to ~~;et the $.5,000,000. Now this ad~s to the enlightenment of the Ne~foundland ~eople. This really enlightens our people - this makes them understand more clearly. does it not? What the great oil refin,ecy deal is at Come-b'y-chance. Mr. Speaker, let me tell h:J,m something about Bay d'Es~oir, and the power of the Po~er Commission. Here is the situation. I have it here under the heading of Power and Power Commission. The wit is devastating. I am annihilated by that wit. I am burning.

The han. gentleman would be surprised if he knew how m.uch he had taught me. He would be surprised if he only realized, if he had a hint of how much I have learned from him. He would be greatly . surprised, but he would not be happy. Now about this water spill:ln~~: over the dam Mr. Speaker. You see, you have your choice of not building, a~ building the dam - not backing up the water.. A dam is built to back up water. So that when you want to let it down over, it will come down and develop electricity ..., falling water •. _ {, 37

...... --\,.. - You can decide not to builu the dam and you can decide not to hack up the water, and you can decide not to have any falling water there available to you. Until somebody places an order for the poHcr and Hhen he places the order for the power you will be in a position to deliver it--to him t•m and a half ye,-.rs later. No,/ two and a half years later might very vcll be t•1o and a half years late. Too late. Not only later but too late.

Get the order for the power then start building the dam and backing up the vater and getting the fall of water and developing the power, and let the customers ~;ct the power as soon as they uant it, or wait until you p,et the order then start ~i}'\nake the cueitomers •1ait. Now the other course open to you of course is to anticipate the pQ~~er that will be needed. Based on all the estimates that you can get, based on all the data, all the information you can lay your hands on, practical, level-headed. hard-fisted engineers.

George Hobbs, !·!allis Reid and a core of men of 25 or 30 superior men in that Power Commission, who are watching the power developi::tent of this Province and of Canada generally, and are making their careful estimates of what po;~er will'be needed next year, the year after, the year after, the year af after, every year, for the next five, ten, fifteen, twenty years; and planning accordingly. This Government that does no planning. t.Jhen the dam is finished, and the po-;er is available it may •rell be the case · that for a month, or three months or five months you have an excess of po•1er.

The customers may not be quite ready to receive the power. It is better to have the power surplus before your customers need it than to have your customers t~aiting on it and not being able to deliver it, not having it to deliver, surely it .is better business , it is more sensible for the Potrer CoiTUllission to develop the power and have it there waiting for the customers rather than to have the customer there waiting on the power which is not yet ready. Surely, surely that is true. MR.WELLS: If we can afford it.

NR.SHALLHOOD: Now this would mean, that the water might very well spill over the dam for a brief period. The other day Mr. Speaker, serious trouble developed in the pcnverhouse at Deer Lake. ;low, I ac in the Han. centleman 's o1.7ll district·- Humber East. Seriou~ trouble developed in Bowaters great powerhouse at Deer Lake. And they were out 30,000 horsepower, out, did not have it, it was not there for them.· The trouble in their powerhouse was such that 30,000 horsepower that they most desparately needed for the mill and the totm of Corner Brook was not there.

The plant was not producinr, it, they were uown; they were~short, they were out 30,000 horsepower. If the ?ower Commission had not had 30,000 horsepower to spa~e. If

'\"' :.:.! • · •. - r ....... : ... 1 '; • they were not developin?, it, if they had not built the dam or dams, if they had not built the canals, if they had not hacked ur the water, they would not have had that 30,000 horsepower to deliver to llowater~ ~nd the mill would have closed dovn~ the to\>--n would have closed dmm, ,in Corner llrook. But the PO\Jl'r Commission ,..ere there ready and waiting to deliver the power imrn~iately so there was no dislocation~ It is absolutely necessary Hr.

Speaker, for the Power Co=ission to have 20,30 40,000 horsepower in reserve always, always that much in reserve, available for any such emergency that might arise. For example, Hr. Speaker, give you another example, I have_given you one from Deer Lake on the 1-lest Coast, I '~ill p,ive you one now on the East Coast, namely at Duff's, IJe are building a great 400,000 horsepm<er thermal electric plant at Duff's near Seal Cove, near Holyrood. It is costing $40 tlr 50 millions , it 't-Yill be on stream in the late fall ··of this year and in the early summer of next year.

T\vo hundred thousand horsepower this fall, two hundred thousand horsepower next summer. Costing something of the order of approximately (from memory now) something of the order of $50 million. ~ow we have had a great storm, an ice storm, \J(' had:one, the Rouse may remer.:ber a couple of weeks ago around St. John's. I took some movies of it. I took movies 1 I stopped on an overpass coming <:~lon:;; the Trans-C<:~nada J:i?.h~1ay and.underneath that overpass were two thinr.s, first, the tracks of the railway and secane! the transmission. line of the ~lewfoundland Light and ro·,.er Comj>c.uy.

And on tha.t t)::ansmission line there must have been t\.Jer. ty wires nnd a cable uould pal'<s t>nccrncath the overpass. So I stopped the car got out and I took movies and still pictures of the overpass itself, one of the !'10St map:nificcntly hancsotre si~hts I have ever seen in my life' then !Shot the r<:~Us and t shot alor.g the 1.1ires. ~lr.

Speaker the wires would not be uhig as my little fin~er, tht~ wires themselves hut the icc on them was four inches, many nany times the size of the "ire, nm1, hut however the wire held and it did not, may he there 1vas not cr.ough 1;ind ·along with the ice, the t erriblc load of ice on the wire and or. the poles to brino: the thing crashing down. But they did bring th('m crashinp, do•..m, the poles, the tmoers th.:Jt held up the wires and the ~-.·ires,. With the enormous weight of ice they car.~e crashing down .nothing could stand th<:~t strain.

I do nat !mow ~o.·h<:~t uill happen whether there will be a good case against the insurance cornp.:~ny. I do not kno'l.·. l-lhethcr ·there would be a case against the en~inet'rs, the en?,ineerinr. company, that designed it. I do not know whether there ~10uld he ayainst the construction people who installed it I do not know, I do not l:no~o.· but I do know that the enormous w•~lf1ht of the ice and the winds brouF:ht do'm some 25 to 35 towers and miles of wires. 1-lith to.•hat

result, with this result that for n 1~eek in St. John's everything is ~oint; to be rationed , for electricity, But not if the plant nt Duff's were ready because Xr. I Speaker \~hat happens is this, wherever the po~>er is generated, Bay D'Espoir, Rattling Brook, Duff's out here, or anywhere it is feel into the r,rid and the electric! ty runs either \·Iay. It is not like a river that has to run do~mhill. The electricity can·go east or west,north or south or any point of the compass, iust put a wire and the electricity will go in either direction on that wire.

If this plant were running now at Duff's there would be no shortage of power. Because if the pm~er could not come in alon3 the Isthmus of Avalon which is the weak spot of it all,.. you have the sea on both sides of the Isthmus, you have winds blowing both ways, you have salt water spray, you have a bacl situation. If you have the powerhouse operating at Duff's it does not matter, you do not have to bring power in over the Isthmus of Avalon. Mr. Speaker, here is the increase in power constr.:~ption in Canada, for the last three years.

For the Hhole of Canadn in 1967 the increase in consumption of electricity for the whole nation was 6.2 per cent that year over the previous year. Six point two per cent three years ago. And last year, in the same year in New- foundland it increased 9.6 per cent. For all Cnnada ~.2 per cent for Newfoundland 9.6 • For all Canada 1968, 7.3 per cent for all Canada, for Newfoundland 13.9 per cent • Last year 1969, for all Canada consumption of electricity inc ·reased 7. 4 per cent, in Newfoundland 19.2 per cent. Ue led all the provinces of Canada.

We - -had 2~ times the percentage of increase that the Canadian nation had. In the three years consumption of electricity in ~:cwfoundland in three years not counting the present year 'We are in now in th-ree calendar. years ending December 31st. the increase in Newfoundland was 42.7 practically 43 per cent, ~ncrense in the consumption of : . elect rid ty. And then the hon. r,entleman asked what are 'We going to do with all the electric! ty? Ans\ver, . sell it. What are we going to do with it? Ans'Wer,use it. What are we goinp, to do with it? Answer, consume it.

Because the consumption of electricity is increasing faster in this Province than in any other province of Canada. MR.WELLS: The "figures are misleading, thi~ is caused by ERCO primarily. HR. SMALL\WOD~ He will deal with ERCO. :-le will deal with ERCO and 'We lJill deal with the ERCO situation. And we will deal with the phony and the imaginary figures the hon. gentleman keep flinging across •. MR.l-IELLS: They are true. MR. SMALLIWOD: They are untrue. I will give the . facts. They are untrue. They are

.. !. ~ -"' . .. ... .. , .... A • ·~·. 0 not facts, they are misfacts. So l'tuch for pm,er. But I am p,oing to leave the hon. gentleman yet, He m.::~de a speech, Oh thnt mine enemy had "~.•ritten a book or made a speech. A speech that ~as recorded on tape and on paper. Oh that mine enemy, mine ~nerny had made ."1 speech. Anyone Hr. Speaker •:ho has "'alked around his district and knocked on the doors of his district and talked to the peop~e of his district as I did duriup, the election campai)?:n (and he got.that far -.;hen he was interrupted) and Hho do you suppose ~fl!.Spe::ker interrupted him, I did.

I said "How many doors;" And I re!'l;!rnber the statement, "Anyone uho has ~alked around his district and knocked on the doors of his district and talked to the people of his district as I d~d during the election campaien 4nd I interrupted , 'how many doors? 3000 exactly out of 3340 I could not make the other three hundred and forty. And then I interrupted again rudely, anJ I s<:~id: "~hy not?" There were difficulties here in St. John 1 s and I had to come in and help solve,_ · _ J would l.l:!tve 1 iked to have made the other 300, and I proP'lise I ~ill as soon as it can be done.

Anyone who knocked on 3000 doors or any other 3000 doors in this Province and talked to the people knoHs full well the hiuh esteem and respect and adrairation held for the Premier. And uhat it means, Hhcn individuals, ~>•hen citizens of the Province write , to the Premier o.as opposed to any other member or anybody else in this Province. I do not ~rish to get sent irnent:tl <1bout this, but I would like to mention one thing that happened. I saw tears streara dmm the face of an !l5 year old man who talked about the Premier, n>!•~n I k·,ocked on his door at supper time.

And then I interrupted and I said that', in the House too, that is they break do\ln and cry, in a different spirit altogether. And he went on in an entirely different spirit and for an entirely different reason, he was upset, the old gentleman was upset by some remark made by some member of <:~nether party about the !Ion. the Premier. He was so upset, he said, I watched him, I saw it on teleyision, if I had, been clos,e 1/ to him I would have jumped right into his eyes. That is :1bsolutely a fact and the tears tvere stre=ing down his face.

Notv I have no illusions about the fact that I collected all of the votes that I got. I h.::.,;e no daub t about that. I ¥.'0uld like to think that I did. But I must be ho~st, I vould be a fool to,- be otherwi5:e. , No, although those votes ~1ere cast for ete they were not cast fo:r 111e as : a person • I like to think that a fair number might have been but I know they were cast for me because I supported a party that was lead by a man admired and respected and ,_ loved in this Province. And then he denied, then he denied.

' ,._ •• c (. and then he denied, then he denied - then having made that speech in this House here, on de~ember 9, 1966, a couple of years ago or more than that­ having made that speech he then contradicted me when I said that I had dragged him in by the coattails into this House. I dragged him in alright. He said it here in his own speech. }fR, WELLS: I said it six months ago. I have got no elusions. MR. SMALLWOOD: The bon. gentleman can have this consolation. He can have this consolation - he is not alone. He is not the only one over there.

I can look to his left and to his right and I can see men who were dragged in by the coattails, also. I know how they got in here, and I know how they will go out. I know how they will go out. I know how they got in and I know bow they will go out. I know who will run. I know how many of the recent Liberals and the new Tories will run again. I do.

I know how many will run as candidates and I know anough about politics in Newfoundland to know how many hon. gentlemen across the way are going to run again and whetaer they will run as Liberals or Tories and whether they will be elected. 1 do not need to wait for the election. I know, I know. We will have an ·.electorate and the vote will be held and the election will take place and ! ' know, now, what is going to happc:: to !:lOSt of the hon. gentlemen sitting acrbss over there. I tn~ now. Mind you, I am not overlooking the big mass movement.

I am not overlooking t,he big mass movement that is going on,the great popular crusade to put me out and to back the Tories. I ~ not overlooking that. I am not ignoring the crusade. I am not ignoring the fact, for instance that down in Lewisporte, a day or two after two Liberals left the Liberal ·Party and joined the Tory Party, a couple of days after that. I remember that they, too, together with the Leader of the Opposition - that made three - together with Mr . Marshall, that made four, the President of the Tory Association and together with the member for Gander - that made five. . ' - ~~~ON.

MEMBER: I did not go to Lewisporte. MR. SMALLWOOD: Did not go to lewisporte? All right, that made ~our, but there was one otaer. Who was the fifth? Who? ,.

.- '""" J- ':;, ' .~ r. Karch 2, 1970 Tape 145 Page 2 GC Well, I am glad to be corrected, I am happy to know the han. gentleman was not there and he will be happy in a moment. He will be happy to know he was not there. In a moment he will be happy, too, because the five - the three Tories and the two new Tories went down to Lewisporte to launch the crusade.7 the popular movement that was going to sweep across the face of Newfoundland. They had forty-four persons present besides themselves.

Now, that was not for the to~~ of Lewisporte, which is one of Newfoundland's biggest towns, but that was for the entire district of Lewisporte ~ to elect officers and executives of the Tory Association of that great district and there were forty-four persons present. Now, that was good, that was very good. That was not too bad altogether - forty-four persons. • If I ever went to Lewisporte to hold a meeting, and forty-four persons came, I would die. I would die if only forty-four came.

And if I went there just absolutely alone and -- if I did not go there alone with four or five other prominent politicians, but just alone by myself, drop in there at five o'clock and get announced - send some boys around to say, "Joey is here. He is going to hold a meeting". And if only forty-four turr.ed up, I would die. I would say,that is the end of Joey. What an ignominious end! But, that is glorious compared with Burin and compared with Marystown. In Marystown,they held a meeting in Marystown. In Gillams, I had a meeting of about 300 persons. AN HON. MEMBER: You got booed out of the hall. MR.

SMALLWOOD: I did not get booed out of the hall. I went out of the hall and then I came back and I w~s given a glorious reception ~there. I was booed in Lake Melville, in Happy Valley, but 1100 people - sure in 1100 people there must be even thirty or forty who booed me, out of 1100 people, but who won? wbo won? And who won in Humber West. I did. AN HON. MEJo!BER: By the skin of your teeth. .. ... MR. SMALLWOOD: Not by the skin of my teeth. I won. -\: All thirty-four - all forty of the delegates voted for me and against the han. gentleman from ... ~ St. John's West. Now, then, Mr.

Speaker, in ~ Humber~ast, I won with a much better

March 3, 1970 TApe 145 Page 3 Ge majority,±n~HumberWast, than they did in Humber ~st.• t •b 9 HI I · ;; *'bitP ~. And I did not bring in one Tory - not one Tory vas brought in to the meeting at Humber ~"st, and tlo"o-thirds of them at Humber East were Tories, tva-thirds of them were Tories. Mr. Speaker, in Marystown, the great crusade, the great Tory crusade, they are nov up in the south-west coast. The great Tory crusade in Marystovn, was for the afternoon and five persons turned up - one of them a Liberal with his card in his pocket. The other a newsman from a radio station and three others.

The audience was five, so they called off the meeting and they called it again for that night, and again that night, they had five, this great Tory crusade. In Burin, twenty - fifteen - some say twenty and some say fifteen. I am going to call it twenty.· Oh, Mr. Seeaker! Oh, Mr. Speaker, this great Tory crusade that is going Lv sweep across the face of Newfoundland - when we get through with that crusade, you will not have enough of them to pad a crutch - not to pad a crutch.

I will advise His Honor, the Queen's representative,':to dissolve this legislature at my oVnctime of my choosing which is my constitutional right and i have exercised il on si~ u~cas!O~ - ! have c~cr~iscd ~? ~onst!tu!ion~l right, to advise the Governor to dissolve the General Assembly and hold a General Election and on each of the six times, I won. On the sixth time, I won with the biggest majority of all. That is when I brought a number of young gentlemen in by the coattails - by my coattails. They all had to hold on. "Hold on! Do not let go for dear life!

Hold on to my coattails!" And I brought them in here - into this Chamber with the help of a lot of voters. -~- · Well, this is what the hon. gentleman to the hon. gentleman's left, said in this House. He was not fooling himself that he got elected. I got elected. Yes. ~ .. s AN HON. }ffiMBER: He~ only left geographically, not politically. MR. SMALLWOOD: He has not left at all, He will get left. The newcomers are gone. The newcomers, the newcomers - the loyal old crowd will hear you and who is over there?· .Who ia ·he? Who are they? Newcomers. Newcomers. Newcomers came in three years ago.

Newcomers dragged in on someboiy's coattails. '~ tf'

t March 2, 1970 Tap~ 145 Page 4 GC AN HON. MEMBER: This man's been here for fourteen years? MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, not sll:of them. Yes. That hon. gentleman I - look, I will refrain from discussing hL~ at all. I have affection for him. I have a lot of respect for him. I underst .and vhy he is over there where he is and I am sorry. I am sorry, I am sor~~. Kr. Speakec, on opening day, the Leader of the Opposition quoted rather copiously from the report of Lord Amulrte, . who is chairman of the commission, kno~ as the Amulree Commission.

He quoted rather copiously the telling of the pathetic conditions there were im Newfoundland in 1933. Pathetic condit:l .ons - so bad, such hunger, such s t:arvation, such poverty, such disease in Newfoundland, that we were down and ~ut. This people were down and out and on opening day the Leader of the Op~csition qucted passage after passage from the Royal Commission's Report. Then the hon. gentleman, the member· for Humber East, in his speech, took up the theme and continued it.

He ~arried on the speech about the quoting from the Royal Commission's Repo ~ t, Lord Amulree's Report, and talking of the conditions in Nevfoundland in 1933. Hei.t:ing as he did - the Leader of the Opposition - be said, "Now, here is a vein of gold, I must mine this one. I must really'--- MR. MURPHY: I acknovledged it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Oh, yes, he acknowledge& it, and mined it. He acknowledged it and mined it. Yes, I had not said he lhad hidden the fact that he said he quoted from the Amulree Commission. He read out passages from the same report as the report from which the Lead'.er of the Opposition reported.

He read out the passages from the Amulree c:~mmission. Who - is this hint that he did pJa._9io.riziftJ. He did not pl,,3iCLl'.''i:s.e. He said - he told us and he did not naed to tell me because I recogn1ized the words and I am very familiar with that report anyway. Now, Sir, why did the Leader of th~ Opposition on opening day, and the hon. member for Humber Eas~. in his spe < ·-~ch - vhy :did they both read copiously from the Amulree Report? Why did they a!o it? They must have thought there was some point in it.

"nley must have ht.,,d a motive and • reason for doing it, and they soon made it clear what tht·~ir reasoning was. Their reasoning

~ - Karch 2, 1970 Tape 145 Page 5 GC was that we are not close to that again, There would be no .point. 'That is right, That is the point and if the Leade~ of the Opposition were here, he would, I think, also acknowledge that is the point he was trying to make. Exactly, Now, the hon. gentlemen - I do not know if he was born in 1933; I wish I could say that. I would be here for the nExt twenty-five years at least. If I could say that! Hr. Speaker, let us compare 1933 with now. Is that a fair thing to do? I did not introduce it.

It was the Leader of the Opposition and the bon. member for Humber East who introduced the issue into this House. AN HON. MEMBER: The Premier has been doing it for twenty years. HR. SMALLWOOD: No, I did not take 1933. I takestwenty years, twenty-one, nineteen, eighteen, seventeen, sixteen, fifteen, fourteen - I will go back to 1949. I usually compare Newfoundland under the benign influence of 6onfederation compared with Newfoundland before Confederation.

But, now, we will take 1933 because this is the time introduced by these two hon~'meabers of the House, comparing Newfoundland in 1933 with now, with the strong hint, with the very strong hint that we are now, again something like what we were in 1933 - heavy debt, heavy burden of paying the interest on the debt, a lot of unemployment, a lot of relief, and so on and so on. Nov, I have distributed the figures to the press because they are quite important. In 19 Well, if there are any copies left, yes, It will be in Hansard in any case.

In 1933 and 1969. - these are easy to take down, by the way, and l have them in this form: I have 1933 here and 1969 there and over on the left side, I have the topics and then the two columns -'33, '69. Total earnings of the Newfoundland people - that is the G.P.P. - in fact in 1933, it was the G.N.P •• Now we call it the G.P.P. Then it was the Gross National Product, now it is the Gross Provinaial Product. We were a nation theQ. God forgive us! We were a nation.

\ ', . March 2, 1970 Tape 145 !age 6 GC But, the G.P.P. - that is the total earnings of all our people - in 1933, was $35 million - $35,400,000.00 - $35.4 million. $35.5 million - that was the grand total earning of the Newfoundland population in 1933. For - • . . ... '

for our fisheries, that is what they got for their fish and their fish oils, the marine oils, the seal skins, flippers, vegetables, pulp, paper, pulp wood and minerals. The total value of the earnings of the Newfoundland people was $35.5 million. Last year, now come over to the last colu~n under 1969, it was that $35 !.dllian .. plus another $65 million, plus another $100 million, plus a $1 billion.

Now I will give the exact figures, put dovn a dollar sign, then put down the figure "t" and a comma, and the figure "100" and a cotmna again, then three "000" and a comma· .. then three "000'' $1,100,000,000 last year. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is thirty-one times as much as in 1933. I am comparing the earnings of our Newfoundland people in these two years, 1933, 1969. Now in 1933,underneath 1933 over to the left put per capita earnings, that is take the total earnings and bring it down to per head, per capita for every man; woman and child in Newfoundland, it was a $124.00.

If you took the population of Newfoundland in 1933, and divided into $35.5 million, it came to $124.00 for the whole year. That is what Newfoundlanders had on the average $124.00 a year. Last year per capita now, put down"2" under 1969, put dovn "2" co1!11!13,"140" $2,140 for every man, woman and child in the Province. Now that is seventeen times as much per capita, per individual, man, woman, child, as in 1933. Seventeen times as much. Now come back over to the left side, and put down per fa~ily earnings for the year - that is a per capita.

Now take it by families, under 1933, "620" $620.00 a family that is what Nevfoundland lived on in 1933. An average of $620.90 a family. Nov come over to 1969, and it is "10,700" $10,700.00 was the average of the G.P.P. in this Province in 1969. Now, Mr. Speaker, take another figure - we had a debt 1.r. 1939, it was $105,ili.illion something of that order. $106 million, a $105 million around there, we had a population of 280 something thousand. Anyway to pay the interest on the debt we had no sinking fund remember,?in those days, in 1933, we just pa~d the interest, when we could.

It took of the total earnings of the Newfoundland people that year, of all they earned in·the whole Island and Labrador, of all their earnings to pay the interest on the debt took, one-fifth of their earnings, the exact figure is nineteen and a-half percent, 19 and~ percent, 19~,perenct. of all the earnings of our people, just to pay the interest on the debt, one-fifthc of their earnings went to pay the interest on the debt. No sinking fund, not reducing the net, not · paying off any of the principal, just the interest alone. MR. H. COLLINS: I wonder if I could inject here.

I wonder would he inform::the House what is the source of the 1933 fir.ures which he is using?

-. ,. MR. SHALLWOOD: Yes, a variety of sources. Budgets, Department of Finance Estimates, and I am the author of some of them because they appeared in books bctN of mind that haveAwritten in the last twenty-five years. I used to be the leading statistician, God forgive me;of Newfoundland. There was a time when I was the only statistician there was around Newfoundland, who went around compiling these figures. You will get it in my various books. I was always fascinated by it. I always took immense interest in compiling these figures.

Sir William McGregor, the Governor in 1905 was the first man in Newfoundland's History to compile figures showing the value of manufacturers in Newfoundland. I did the same thing in my book, "The New Newfoundland" in 1925, t'l:enty odd years after Sir William HcGregor did it, I was the next to do it. Now, Sir, to pay the interest on the public debt took, what I have just told you, nineteen and a-half percent of all the earnings, and this last year 2.9 just under three ,percent - 2.9 percent, it took of our earnings last year, to pay the interest and the service to clebt.

Now how much of the revenue of the Government that figure I have just given is the total income of the people, but now just take the current account revenue of the Government, in 1933 and in 1969. How much of the current account revenue of the Government was chewed up, was eaten up, was absorbed just to pay the interest on the debt? In 1933, sixty-three percent. Mr. Speaker, can yourNo~~magine bringing down a budget in Newfoundland 1! ........

"~) later this month, can your~. imagine the shock there would be in this House and in this Province, if the budget revealed that out of the entire current account revenue of the Government in the coming year, it would require sixty-three percent of all of that just to pay the interest on the debt,can you imagine Tour Honour the shock and the horror it would be,. and that is what it took in 1933. Of all the current account revenue of the Government that year sixty-thr~e percent of it went just to pay the interest on the debt. Sixty-three percent.

Last year it was fifteen and a-half percent, fifteen and a-half percent of our current account revenue, that is -the year we are now in, the year that ends the end of this month. Fifteen and a-half percent as against sixty-three percent. We are comparing two yeara~ Mr. Speaker, we are comparing 1969 or 70 with 1933. Now, Sir, here is one of the most interesting tables ever produced on the floor of this Chamber. It is not my figures, I had the statisticians and economists in the Department of Finance do it. In 1933, the per capita debt was $352.00.

Every living soul in Newfoundland, we were not a Province then, owed $352.00 public debt, that Yas the per capita, $352.00. The per capita earnings were $124.00 for the year. But, every dollar of the ~eople's earnings that year

had to support $2.84 of debt. No~ in case the hon. gentleman missed the figures just let me repeat them. In 1933, the per capita debt was $352.00. The per capita earnings of the people that year was $124.00, which means that every dollar of the G.P.P. of the peoples earnings had to support $2.84 ofl debt. Now the significance of that table is seen when you apply it to 1969. Apply the same ratio to 1969, and our debt today would have to be $3,100,000,000. MR. COLLINS: We were not as proverty stricken now, as we were then. :HR.

S)".ALL\WOD: Exactly, exactly)no one- ~ut who is the one that raised the question of comparing 1933 with 1969? The hon. gentleman now wants to say away from that comparsion now, because little did he know when he made the comparsion what would turn out. MR. J. C. CROSBIE: What was the per capita at the end of last year? }fR. S~!ALLWOOD: I have not got it here. MR. C. WELLS: Was it more tha~ doubled our interest in two years? MR. SMALLWOOD: Whatever we have done, I will be most delighted to discuss that.

I will be delighted to discuss our present debt, our present per capita debt, our burden of interest payments, and what we have to show for it. I will be delighted to discuss that. 'll;tt the moment, however, I am discussing something that makes the MR. C. WELt:·_ Oh, not really, Mr. Speaker. MR. SMALL\;'OOD: If he has an epidermis as thick as that of an elephant, maybe he is not uncomfortable. Maybe he is not uncomfortable. But, I did not raise this comparsion. Because I would have regarded it has the last word in absurdity to compare today in this Province, to compare the standard of living of our people.

The standard of public services, our schools, our hospitals, our roads, our muaicipalities, the way of people's homes, the clothing they wear, the food they eat, the furnishings in their home, the cars they have, the skidoos they have, all the evidences of living better compare that today with the conditions in 1933. j.)..J Let me tell youAlittle about 1933. I have only told here Mr. Speaker about the debt, and the earnings of the people.

But,if the earnings of the people in Newfoundland came to $620.00 a year for every family in the Island and in Labrador, on the average, some would have twice that, but some would have half .. that. Some would have none. Some would have no income at all. Let me tell_·you that in • that year, Mr. Speaker, the population of Newfoundland was, I believe, speaking from memory 281,000 souls. And the number on dole, and it was dole, it was not social assistance, it was dole, it was a wack'; it was a magpo1y brovn flour.

The numb.er on dole that year was 105,000 out of 281,000. What percentage is one that? Forty percent? Not fifty percent. Not far short of/half the entire population men,women, and children were on the dole, eating the maggoty brown bre.ad. And you know the amO\Ult of the dole? It was six cents a day. It was a $1.80 a month - a $1.80 a month for twelve months - at how much 'l $21.68 a year. $21.60 a year was the dole in 1933. And how dare any man insult ~his Province, insult Confederation, insult the Newfoundland of 1969-70. Insult us all by comparing it with 1933.

When Newfoundland was ra'!llllanted with T.B. it was I tell you , Mr. Speaker, that in 1933 Newfoundland was half rotten with T.B. And half rotten with beriberi. And half rotten with all the malnutrition diseases. ... ·-

Tape no. 147 March 2nd., 1970 Page 1 I do not know, if I have ever told the story in this House, There was a yo~g man here in St. John's. He was crippled, one leg shorter than the other, a bit tall, clever, clever. He use to write doggerel vers~ He would collect a few cents here and the~e to pay a printer to print his verses on a sheet of paper, sat fifteen inches long and four inches wide, a piece of newsprint paper to print his verses. He would go around selling them tor a cent each. That is how he lived. Frank was a clever young fellow. I knew him very well and then 1 came to his home in Tickle Cove.

I was in Keels, and I headed off for Tickle Cove there on the south side of Bonavista Bay, and I walked across the hills, instead of following the road, I took what they told would be a -- excuse me I was in King's Cove. I had been in Keels then King's Cove and from King's Cove, I walked across the hills to Tickle Cove and the first man I ran into, as I came dovn out of the hill, out on the edge of the settlement was this man. He was amazed to see me coming down out of the hill, a stranger. In Tickle Cove, it did not happen very often, the hon. Minister of Fisheries will admit, it happens even l~ss now.

He looked at me with great and undisguised curiosity wondering who on earth I was, where I was coming from and we got talking, and I told h!.:J. I had cc::;e eve:- fro::~ Y.i:~g's Cove. P.e said, "you walked over." ··:r .s&id, "yes." He said, "alone." I said, "yes, · it is only four or five miles." He said, "you must be hungary." I said,''yes, a little." He said, "come over and have a cup of tea." We went over to his house, Hr. Speaker. He lived alone in that House. He was a widower and he was on relief. I never saw paverty like it, and I have seen lots of poverty and I have experienced poverty myself.

I grew up in poverty, N~ han. member in this House ever experienced the poverty that I have in my own life, in my own home, growing up as a boy. No one. Nobody here. I do r.ot care who you are. I do not care where you came from. I do not care what you have gone through. I have seen a lot of poverty, but I never saw any poverty like that. The little house consisted of two rooms·; a kitchen and one other room. I was not in the other room. The kitchen had a table which consisted of a bale box. He·. had a couple of small bale boxes for chairs.

No covering on the floor, had no curtains, no blinds and half the windows ~re out, and they were stuffed up with something, bri~bags or something. Tne stove had three legs and something ., '

Tape no. 147 March 2nd., 1970 Page 2 propped up under it where the fourth leg had been, but I still remember that is ~as an Improved ~uccess stove, with an oven on it, a wood stove, Improved Success. He was on the dole. Now mind you;nothing I say by way of description takes away from the man's kindheartedness. He shared ~+.at he had - a millionaire cannot do more. He put a square cover of a tin