2011 Legislative Session: Fourth Session, 39th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

official report of

Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Thursday, February 16, 2012

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 29, Number

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print)

ISSN 1499-2175 (Online)

CONTENTS

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

Statements

(Standing Order 25B)

Impact of poverty on children and Harlem Children's Zone

J. Kwan

Fort Nelson schools and Rachel's Challenge program for social change

P. Pimm

Forest industry in Fraser-Nicola constituency

H. Lali

The Boulders Climbing Gym in Saanich

M. Stilwell

Forest Service and forest industry conditions

B. Simpson

Tourism development in mountain regions

B. Bennett

Oral Questions

Auditor General report on forest management and status of forest lands

A. Dix

Hon. S. Thomson

N. Macdonald

Forest industry jobs and log export policy

B. Routley

Hon. S. Thomson

C. Trevena

Timber supply and mill operations in Burns Lake area

B. Simpson

Hon. P. Bell

Delays in court proceedings in Chilliwack

K. Corrigan

Hon. S. Bond

Government action on delays in court proceedings

L. Krog

Hon. S. Bond

Freedom-of-information request on prevention of homophobic and transphobic bullying

S. Chandra Herbert

Hon. M. MacDiarmid

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills

Bill 18 — Advanced Education Statutes Amendment Act, 2011

Hon. N. Yamamoto

M. Mungall

R. Sultan

D. Donaldson

J. Thornthwaite

B. Ralston

K. Conroy

H. Bains

R. Fleming

C. James

[ Page 9215 ]

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 16, 2012

The House met at 1:33 p.m.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

S. Simpson: I'm really pleased to have the opportunity to introduce one of my constituents who is here visiting us today. Susinn McFarlen is an actor and a playwright. She's currently starring in a one-woman show at the Belfry Theatre here in Victoria. Susinn plays three different characters in On the Edge , which will have you laughing and thinking about the complicated lives of women in today's world.

Last summer I had the pleasure, along with my wife, to see Susinn's play, which she wrote for the fringe festival, called Since You Left Us . It was a wonderful, hilarious story about life in general. I would hope that the whole House would welcome Susinn here today and wish her the best for a great run at the Belfry here.

K. Krueger: With us in the House this afternoon we have our legislative assistant Robert Scherf, from my pod, and our new assistant legislative assistant Suneil Karod. I'd ask the House to please make them welcome. They're a great help to us.

Hon. H. Bloy: It's a real pleasure to rise in the House today and introduce a group from the Tri-Cities area, A Chance to Choose. I've participated with this group since the beginning — about ten years now — and it gives young students a second chance. I know from meeting this group today and co-hosting a lunch with my colleagues from Coquitlam-Maillardville and Coquitlam–Burke Mountain — it was a real pleasure — that they'll have lots of success.

[1335]

I'd just like to introduce them and read their names in the House: Jennifer Carver, Seka Evans, Trevor Faucher, Troy Grant, Michael Hooper, Dorianna Kallstrom, Kevin Li, Natalie Parfitt, Stephanie Polok, Jesse Ricard, Sarah Villanueva and Dylan Walker. We have some staff that have been here from the very beginning as well. Some of them: Evelyn Humphreys, Bob Lewis, Susannah Kloegman and Aman Tatla. Would the House please make them welcome.

D. Thorne: I would like to join my colleague from the other side of the House in welcoming the staff and students from A Chance to Choose in the Tri-Cities. I, too, have been involved since the very beginning — in fact, before I became an MLA — when I was a city councillor. It's a wonderful program. We always enjoy attending the events put on by A Chance to Choose, and we hope they continue into infinity. I would also like, on behalf of our side, to make them very welcome.

L. Reid: We were joined both yesterday and today by two dear colleagues of mine. Ellen Chambers and I taught together in the Richmond school district many moons ago. Our speech-language clinician, Dianne Milsom, has joined us as well. She and I spent many years in the Richmond school district. Dianne is still in Richmond. Ellen is now at the North Island College in Port Alberni. I'd ask the House to please make them welcome.

Statements

(Standing Order 25B)

IMPACT OF POVERTY ON CHILDREN

AND HARLEM CHILDREN'S ZONE

J. Kwan: A child's potential in school won't be reached if that child's family is struggling with basic needs. If you're a parent that has suddenly lost your job, your child is impacted. If you're a parent that juggles two to three minimum-wage jobs to try and make ends meet, your child is impacted. If you're a parent who can't afford to buy enough healthy food, your child is impacted. If you can't find affordable housing for your family, your child is impacted. If you've escaped homelessness by moving into a home that's infested with cockroaches and bedbugs, your child is impacted.

One common denominator with all of the challenges of these families is poverty. Teachers, community advocates, experts, support workers and families are all asking: how can we work together to end poverty? Many feel that we have the potential to tackle this inequity gap.

In Harlem they have created a Harlem Children's Zone, where they seek to eradicate poverty through education and place-based services. Their expectation for children there is one of success. The Harlem Children's Zone is a 100-square-block area of Manhattan that acts as a network for community groups and programs to ensure that a range of support services are available to children and families literally block by block.

Their originating idea was to address the problems that poor families were facing, from crumbling apartments to children falling behind in school, from violent crime to chronic health problems. Yes, a place-based approach means adequate funding to deliver programs and services. But it's about more than just spending money. It's about working together to coordinate services and make sure that a child's every need is met at the time of need.

Tomorrow members of the Vancouver Elementary School Teachers Association will join with community members, researchers and advocates to discuss ways to work together. Teachers know that these problems need

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to be addressed and that they have a crucial role to play. But like parents, like child care workers and like community groups, they can't do it alone. Let's work together to find ways to ensure that every child has a chance to succeed, even ones that are not our own.

FORT NELSON SCHOOLS AND

RACHEL'S CHALLENGE PROGRAM

FOR SOCIAL CHANGE

P. Pimm: Hon. Speaker, I'd like to tell you a little bit about Rachel's Challenge. I recently had the privilege of visiting elementary and high schools in Fort Nelson, which is one of my northern communities, where they're running an inspirational program for social change called Rachel's Challenge.

Rachel Joy Scott was the first victim of the Columbine High School shootings in 1999. She left behind an amazing legacy in the form of a challenge — to treat each other with kindness and compassion. This challenge has become the foundation for life-changing school programs across North America.

Fort Nelson schools are currently leading the implementation of Rachel's Challenge programs in B.C. and Canada. The five schools in school district 81 and an independent elementary school operated by the Fort Nelson First Nation, Chalo School, have created a Friends of Rachel Club to promote kindness and compassion within their schools and their communities.

[1340]

Last year the Friends of Rachel Club coordinated several activities, including an anti-bullying poster contest, a seniors brunch and tea, and various community educational programs.

During my visit I was delighted to see students performing daily acts of kindness, such as sitting with students who usually sit alone at lunchtime, opening doors for each other and befriending new students. Students also meet weekly goals by writing letters of appreciation to janitors or cafeteria staff or just saying hello to five new people a day.

As the MLA for Peace River North, I feel incredibly proud to represent the interests of my community and my province. I'm especially proud to support initiatives like these in our schools. Fort Nelson schools deserve our recognition and congratulations for their innovative and inspirational Rachel's Challenge program.

FOREST INDUSTRY IN

FRASER-NICOLA CONSTITUENCY

H. Lali: Forestry is the largest employer and is also the lifeblood of Fraser-Nicola, providing well-paying, family-supporting jobs. The history and future of forest communities is forged by the health and sustainability of our forests. When forestry does well, so do my constituents.

Most of my family members, relatives and friends have worked in forestry. I financed my university education by working in Merritt sawmills. On some days, when the wind blows in the direction coming from the local sawmills, I can smell the sweet smell of money — lumber, bark, sawdust and wood chips, that is.

In 1991 there were vibrant forestry operations in most of my communities in Yale-Lillooet. I worked with the jobs protection commissioner and personally intervened to save sawmills. We saved 70 jobs at Lytton Lumber, 124 in the Aspen-Weyerhaeuser deal in Merritt and 240 jobs at J.S. Jones Timber in Boston Bar.

When I left office in 2001, we had eight sawmills, eight reman, or value-added, operations and a couple of dozen small-scale salvage operations. Between '91 and 2001 an additional 300 permanent forestry jobs were created in the riding. We also had 109 forest ministry personnel managing our forests in Fraser-Nicola. Forestry workers had jobs, and communities had stable tax bases.

Unfortunately, since the last 11 years forestry has been devastated by mill closures and massive job losses. Eighty sawmills and pulp mills closed, 40,000 employees out of work in B.C., sawmills in Boston Bar and Lytton closed, Interfor in Hope gone, half of the value-added outfits out of business in Fraser-Nicola and small-scale salvage operators driven out of business due to lack of fibre in the last 11 years.

The forestry service in Fraser-Nicola has been reduced by 67 percent — from 109 down to 36 employees today. In addition, 500 local forestry jobs lost since 2001.

Forestry is the lifeblood of Fraser-Nicola. Forest-dependent communities need a lifeline, not inaction and punitive policies that suck the very lifeblood out of Fraser-Nicola.

THE BOULDERS CLIMBING GYM

IN SAANICH

M. Stilwell: Climbing is one of North America's fastest-growing sports and has been short-listed as a full-medal sport for the 2020 Olympics. Canada's first world-class climbing facility has just opened in B.C. This newly expanded climbing gym also highlights a unique partnership between a volunteer-driven not-for-profit organization and a school district, because this new gym is located in a public secondary school in Central Saanich.

Called the Boulders Climbing Gym, it offers unique programs, from school-based programs to youth climbing teams as well as climbing therapy and adaptive recreation programs. It turns out that climbing is an excellent form of therapy for a range of challenges from autism spectrum disorder to stroke rehabilitation. The facility opens to the public on evenings and weekends to subsidize its community programs.

It also turns out some of Canada's top youth climbers. These climbers were training on a 24-foot wall, then

[ Page 9217 ]

heading to world championships, where they competed on 50- to 60-foot walls. These young athletes were literally being shortchanged, and so the Boulders decided, once again, to expand.

The $3 million facility officially opened in December, thanks to a dedicated volunteer board and funding from federal, provincial and municipal governments, as well as many private donors, including the Peninsula Co-op and the Gwyn Morgan and Patricia Trottier Foundation. The new facility continues to offer all of the successful programs but has added a host of new ones.

[1345]

The Boulders, in partnership with school district 63, started a climbing academy that has attracted students from all over. This facility is a great example of people making the most of our public facilities through unique partnerships between schools and the communities they serve while helping everyone live healthier lives.

FOREST SERVICE AND

FOREST INDUSTRY CONDITIONS

B. Simpson: One hundred years ago the B.C. Forest Service was established. In its first service plan B.C.'s forests are described as one of the few remaining "great bodies of commercial timber left in the world which are not yet materially reduced by destructive lumbering." And a warning is given that jurisdictions which overexploit their forest resources end up putting more money into maintaining what's left of the resource than they gain from continued exploitation.

The Royal Commission on Forestry, which gave rise to the Forest Service, believed that a stand-alone service would protect B.C.'s forests from the politics of the day. The commission noted: "Forest policy that vacillates, not because fresh knowledge of forests has been obtained but simply because changes have taken place in politics, can have no value."

One hundred years ago B.C.'s forests were viewed as an inexhaustible public resource that would remain so under the wise management of a professional forest service designed to protect B.C.'s forests from both wasteful fires and whimsical politicians in order to feed a growing lumber industry.

One hundred years later we're struggling to provide mills with logs, large portions of the province no longer have any lumbering operations, revenue from forestry has dropped below the costs of publicly administering the resource, and the entire Forest Service, at the whim of politicians, has been absorbed into an omnibus ministry.

Professional foresters are now being trained as FrontCounter specialists, whose main objective is to facilitate easier access to B.C.'s natural resources.

As we celebrate its 100th anniversary, it's fair to say that the B.C. Forest Service faces an uncertain future, as uncertain as the future of the forests it was established to steward for generations yet to come.

TOURISM DEVELOPMENT

IN MOUNTAIN REGIONS

B. Bennett: Even when opportunity knocks, a person still has to get up out of his seat and open the door. I got out of my seat last week and travelled to the Rhône-Alpes region of France, and what I learned convinces me that there is an opportunity for jobs and investment in rural B.C. communities through sustainable tourism development in collaboration with the French.

I want to report briefly today on what I learned and how we can apply that learning to B.C. First, their ski runs in the Alps are at higher elevations than ours, which means that they can provide guaranteed good skiing — good snow when people want to ski, even in the summer. In B.C. guaranteed snow at Christmas would be a huge advantage over our competitors in Colorado and Alberta.

The next thing I learned is the extraordinarily close and cooperative relationship between the resorts and surrounding communities. We were told that this was not always the case. But today local people in the Alps are positive about the overall impact of the resort industry on their communities.

The third thing I learned was how extensive the infrastructure is to transport ordinary European families up into the high mountains. You needn't hire a helicopter or be extremely young or fit to access high terrain in the Alps.

I do not propose that we commercialize our mountains in B.C. or try to duplicate what they have in the Alps today, but what's wrong with developing one or two high-mountain, iconic experiences in our province that will give our tourism industry a competitive edge? What's wrong with opening up access for ordinary people to experience the majesty of the alpine?

We have the opportunity to invite into B.C. an investment in sustainable tourism development and to create jobs for families in rural B.C. A window of opportunity has appeared. Let's get out of our seats, go to that window of opportunity and raise the shade.

Oral Questions

AUDITOR GENERAL REPORT

ON FOREST MANAGEMENT

AND STATUS OF FOREST LANDS

A. Dix: It's wonderful to be here today. The really good news today is that I think that a by-election is going to be called soon in Chilliwack.

For several years now workers forestry experts and communities have warned that our forests and forest industry are in jeopardy because of Liberal government policies. Today the province's Auditor General agreed

[ Page 9218 ]

with their assessment. He said in his report that the ministry lacks clearly defined objectives. He says that the ministry's management practices are insufficient.

[1350]

Does the minister accept the Auditor General's conclusion about the performance of his ministry, and what action is he going to take to deal with it?

Hon. S. Thomson: First, I want to acknowledge and thank the Auditor General for the work that he's done. There are recommendations in there that are important for us to consider. There are also recommendations in there that the ministry is and has been working on as part of our overall delivery in meeting the legislative mandate that we have within the ministry. That mandate includes ensuring that we have healthy forests and ensuring that we have a competitive industry in British Columbia.

We have published a round table, extensive work through the round-table process. We're reporting out on the progress of that round table, and we will continue to work with the industry to ensure that we meet those objectives within our ministry of a healthy forest and a competitive industry in British Columbia.

Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental.

A. Dix: The report concludes that the ministry doesn't monitor effectively. It concludes that they haven't invested in the public interest, and it concludes that they have abandoned their public responsibility to manage the resource. In short, it concludes that the ministry is not just failing in the present — 30,000 jobs lost — but it's failing in the future. I think these are, obviously, critical questions.

The minister, in his response to the report, says, "We also continue to examine approaches for management-unit-level planning as a means to establish and/or refine timber objectives and stewardship principles" — in other words, nothing. They're going to think about doing something about it.

It's a pretty serious situation when you don't know the state of the resource and you're the Minister of Forests. Doesn't that require specific action? Doesn't it require a real inventory so the government itself knows what's going on in the forests?

Hon. S. Thomson: Just to be clear what we are doing with respect to reforestation: through Forests for Tomorrow, $236 million since 2005; over 200 million trees planted annually in British Columbia; over $6.1 million being invested currently in inventory work on the ground to ensure that the resources that we have get focused in the highest-priority areas for reforestation. We are making a significant commitment towards reforestation, we're continuing to do the inventory work, and we will continue to focus the resources in those highest-priority areas for reforestation.

Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental.

A. Dix: The ministry talks about a results-based approach, and what this report says is that they don't even know the results. I mean, what kind of policy planning is that? It is, in fact, catastrophic planning. Surely the minister will agree with me, or maybe he doesn't. But surely he'll agree with me that B.C. requires a proper inventory of the resource in order to ensure forest health into the future.

Does the minister agree with that? Does he agree with that recommendation? Will he proceed to develop a real inventory in British Columbia so again, like they have in the past, British Columbia Forests Ministers will know what the inventory of the forest is and know what the state of the forest is?

Hon. S. Thomson: Just to be clear, that inventory work is underway. What we do know: 733,000 of NSR land, not satisfactorily restocked land; 500,000 hectares of that land is the responsibility of the licensees to reforest, and 300,000 hectares, roughly, is our responsibility. The Forests for Tomorrow program is committed to do that. We have committed that that would be completed within two years — to reforest that.

We continue to do the inventory work on the rest of the land base to determine where the reforestation initiatives need to take place. But just to be clear, that work…. There are lots of numbers out there. There are lots of estimates about what those numbers are. We need to continue to do the inventory work so that we are clear what those numbers are and where the high-priority areas are for reforestation.

[1355]

N. Macdonald: You know, there was a time in this province when a Minister of Forests would know the answer, and that time is before the B.C. Liberals took over. Read through the report. The Auditor General could not have been clearer.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

N. Macdonald: The Auditor General could not have been clearer. The ministry doesn't know. The ministry is degrading the forest.

The Auditor General was also clear that the government needs to establish a provincial plan that states its long-term objectives and focuses its resources in order to foster economic stability. Well, you would have thought

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that that's what the ministry was doing. You would have thought that was the job of the Ministry of Forests. And we know that a healthy forest industry needs a healthy forest. What the Auditor General has confirmed again today is that the B.C. Liberals have completely failed to do that. That's what's in that report.

What is going to finally be done by this government? What is it going to take for this government to do the right thing, come up with a plan and treat B.C. forests with the respect that they deserve?

Hon. S. Thomson: I made it clear. We're investing significantly in reforestation initiatives: $236 million since 2005 and 200 million trees planted annually. We continue to work through our seed research station and the seed farm to make sure that we have the species diversity and the types of trees that are available for the industry to ensure that we get maximum productivity in the land base when the reforestation takes place.

As I pointed out, the inventory work continues. We continue to work through to confirm those numbers. That work will continue, and $6.1 million is being invested in inventory work as we move forward with that plan. We will continue to identify and confirm those numbers, and we will continue to put a reforestation plan in place that meets our objectives, meets the objectives of the legislation, ensuring a healthy land base and ensuring a competitive forest industry in British Columbia.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

N. Macdonald: You know, this is the Auditor General who has looked at this, and the Auditor General's conclusion is completely different from what the minister is saying — completely different. This has been a bungled job from the beginning. It's not the first time. This is not new. In my time as critic we have heard this again and again.

In 2009 the Association of B.C. Forest Professionals issued a report critical of the state of forest inventory with recommendations for improvement. Nothing happened after that.

In 2010 the Forests Ministry, in its own self-assessment — this is your ministry — said the inventory for three-quarters of its land base is now 15 to 25 years out of date. That's why the Auditor General says that you don't know what's happening on the land.

More recently, in November 2011, the Forest Practices Board said: "We do not have confidence that the Forests Ministry can adequately describe the current condition of managed forest or track changes in its condition into the future." It said again and again, and every time this is brought to the attention of the government, what happens? The following year — less resources, less capacity.

So the question is: why? Why has the Liberal government refused to address the forest health crisis, when independent experts and even their own ministry officials knew about these very serious problems?

Hon. S. Thomson: The member opposite is wrong in terms of the fact that we're not working on the inventory, that we don't have a plan to work with it. The Forest Practices Board work that's underway will be important, will be very informative to help us work through those plans.

As I said, $6.1 million is being invested in inventory work currently. We're currently working to assess that number. So $236 million in 2005, since the Forests for Tomorrow program, to reforest those high-priority areas.

[1400]

We will continue to work. We understand the objectives of our legislation to ensure that there is a healthy forest base here in British Columbia. We continue to do that work, and we'll continue to make sure that we have a competitive forest industry into the future.

FOREST INDUSTRY JOBS

AND LOG EXPORT POLICY

B. Routley: The issues the Auditor General criticized the government about today relate to the downfall of the forest industry of the future. I want to talk today about the downfall of the forest industry today. Under this government's watch, B.C. has lost 35,000 good-paying, family-supporting forest industry jobs. This government has overlooked and overseen skyrocketing levels of raw log exports. For most of the 1990s less than a million cubic metres of raw logs were exported from B.C.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

B. Routley: Last Friday B.C. Stats released B.C. log export numbers. In 2011, 5.5 million cubic metres of raw logs were shipped offshore to be processed. This government is shipping raw resources to China. They're creating jobs with our logs. How does creating jobs in China fit with the Premier's so-called jobs plan?

Hon. S. Thomson: The member opposite may not have noticed, and maybe he hasn't read about the recession that this industry has come through, the downturn in the U.S. housing market. What we have done is develop a diversified market for this industry. What that has resulted in, in this province….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat for a second.

Continue.

[ Page 9220 ]

Hon. S. Thomson: What that has done…. This province has had a policy that has increased harvest levels; has increased the level of forest exports in British Columbia to $9.95 billion, up from $9.1 billion in 2010 — 7.3 million cubic metres of lumber exports to China. That's a huge increase. That's created the diversity in this province. It's keeping people employed and keeping mills open. That's the equivalent of production from 18 mills in British Columbia. That's 18 mills producing lumber destined for China. That's what is keeping people working in British Columbia. That's what's creating economic activity throughout the province.

C. Trevena: Mr. Speaker, imagine this: stacked logging trucks, nose to tail, from here in Victoria to Thunder Bay, Ontario, at least a five days' drive away. Or picture it this way, Mr. Speaker: from here in Victoria to Campbell River, where we used to have a mill — we don't have a mill anymore — 137 times there and back, logging truck after logging truck loaded. That's the true picture of an export of 5.5 million cubic metres.

It is a resource that has been squandered. It should take 100 years to grow a tree, and what do we do? We harvest them, and we ship them out of our province. We've lost 33 mills on the Island and the coast. China has seen 82 new mills.

I have to ask the minister what job strategy he really is promoting. Is this government so incapable of seeing the true picture of what exporting logs does? To the minister: when are we going to see action so those jobs stay in B.C. for jobs in B.C.?

[1405]

Hon. S. Thomson: The current policy — which has log exports as part of the policy, as part of the equation that ensures harvesting takes place — ensures that people are working in the forests, ensures truckers are working, ensures equipment suppliers are working in the mills, supporting those mills.

Overall, provincially, less than 10 percent of the total lumber harvested is in the form of log exports. That is what is creating economic activity in the province. That is why we've been able to achieve the export numbers that we have that contribute the revenue to the province that funds our critical programs. That's why we've been able to keep mills open — over two dozen mills opened or reopened in British Columbia as a result of the current policies.

We will continue to work with the industry to diversify the markets, continue to build those markets, continue to be one of the leading softwood lumber exporters in the world.

TIMBER SUPPLY AND MILL OPERATIONS

IN BURNS LAKE AREA

B. Simpson: Would the Minister of Natural Resource Operations please inform the House why the chief forester cannot tell the people of Burns Lake if log supply exists to justify rebuilding the Babine Forest Products mill.

Hon. P. Bell: As the member opposite well knows, given the context of the existing environment and the mountain pine beetle challenges and the timber supply falloff that would occur if no action were taken, in fact there may not be enough timber to supply that market. What we're doing right now is very carefully working through all of the options to see what the possibilities are of ensuring that there is enough timber supply for Hampton to rebuild them, and I'm cautiously optimistic.

It is a process that will take a small amount of time — I think another six or seven weeks — but we need to do that work and make sure that when Hampton does make their decision, they make it with all of the best possible information and, hopefully, put those people back to work.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

B. Simpson: The Lakes timber supply area, which feeds Burns Lake, has the most up-to-date timber supply review in the province to reset the annual allowable cut last July — the most up-to-date. The Minister of Natural Resources has, sitting on his desk, the most up-to-date assessment of options in that area for expanding that cut. Yet with the most up-to-date information available, this government can't answer the question of whether logs exist or not for rebuilding that mill.

That is the situation the Auditor General is pointing out. It applies to every timber supply area in the province and in particular in the mountain pine beetle zone. The issue of Burns Lake is the issue for Vanderhoof and Prince George and Quesnel and Williams Lake and all of those communities, and it needs an answer now. For the $800,000 that this government spent on its jobs strategy, we could have reinventoried the forest.

My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. Will he commit today to make sure that in next week's budget the resources are there to reinventory our forests and answer the question of when mills will close and how communities are going to have to adjust to the post–mountain pine beetle world?

Hon. P. Bell: The member opposite is oversimplifying the issue, because he well knows that the timber supply just in the Lakes District would not be adequate to support this mill. I'm sure that the member opposite has looked at the numbers. I know he's very knowledgable in this area.

[ Page 9221 ]

The issue is that we need to look at the broader region, which the member opposite does point to. So in other words, we need to think about the entire region, starting in Smithers, going to Prince George and down through the Cariboo. So the completion of the member's question in terms of suggesting that we need to figure out a fix for the broader region, I think, is quite accurate.

Interjection.

Hon. P. Bell: However, I do hear the critic opposite suggesting that these logs are going to China. He knows that that is dead wrong. There are no logs coming out of this timber supply area or this region that go to China. In fact, the logs out of this province are typically coastal logs, which don't represent the type of quality that this mill needs.

So I hope that the critic opposite stands up and admits that the timber supply that he's trying to pin the hopes of the people of Burns Lake on has no reflection on this at all.

[1410]

DELAYS IN COURT PROCEEDINGS

IN CHILLIWACK

K. Corrigan: Chilliwack has the longest trial delays among B.C.'s provincial courts. On average, there's a 16-month delay to find the next available court date.

On January 30, after a 51-month delay, Judge Wendy Young stayed proceedings in Chilliwack Provincial Court for a drunk-driving case. Worse, in this case the accused was first convicted, then still walked free because of the delay. Judge Young noted that "there has been institutional or systemic delay of approximately 33 months" — almost three years of delay directly attributed by the judge to a system in crisis.

At the very time, the day, that yet another criminal walked free in British Columbia, this time in Chilliwack, the government had sat for almost six months on a scathing audit that said the justice system is in a mess caused by the B.C. Liberal government. To the Attorney General: when is she going to show some leadership and act decisively to fix this intolerable crisis in our justice system?

Hon. S. Bond: As we have said continuously and will continue to say today, any stay is unacceptable. But we actually need to take a look at the broader system. Every year in British Columbia over 100,000 cases go through courts in this province. Stays represent 1/10 of 1 percent. Is that acceptable? No, it's not. But in fact, 99.9 percent of cases in British Columbia come to a conclusion. It's actually time that the members opposite had a constructive dialogue with us about how we can deal with systemic reform in a system badly in need of change.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

K. Corrigan: Well, last year we had 109 stays in this province. We have Internet predators going free; we have drunk drivers going free. That is not acceptable. It's not acceptable to the victims of these crimes.

This government likes to point out the actions the government has taken or is going to take at some point in the future. It talks about things like the hiring of new judges, but as Associate Chief Judge Gill pointed out: "The appointments have had virtually no net impact on the severe shortage of the complement." In other words, the new judges that the government boasts about are, at best, managing to avoid this crisis from getting even worse.

This case took place in Chilliwack. In fact, Chilliwack faces a litany of problems in its courts. Chilliwack — the longest delays in B.C. in child protection hearings. An average of eight months for a child protection hearing. It's intolerable. Chilliwack — the longest delays in family trials. An average of ten months of delays. Chilliwack — the longest delays in adult criminal two-day trials. An average of 16-month delays. Chilliwack — the third-longest delays for settlements and civil trials.

So again, my question is to the Attorney General. No more delays, no more audits, no more studies. When is she going to act decisively to fix this intolerable crisis in our justice system?

Hon. S. Bond: As I've said and will continue to say, any stay is unacceptable. But to the member opposite, let me share an example. Recently, there was a case that took 88 days — 17½ weeks of a judge's time. What were they doing? Discussing the admissibility of wiretap, before the case even started — 88 days. Is that acceptable to the member opposite? Those are the kinds of things that happen in stays all across the province.

[1415]

Let me give another example, a recent case in northern British Columbia: 15 appearances that dealt with document applications, trial preparation, trial appearances and rescheduling — 15 appearances. Do you know something, Mr. Speaker? British Columbians expect more than that from the justice system, and we're going to talk about reform. We're going to add resources when appropriate and when possible.

GOVERNMENT ACTION ON

DELAYS IN COURT PROCEEDINGS

L. Krog: I'm glad that the Attorney General has a profound grasp of the problems in the court system that this government has created in 11 years of administration. I'm pleased she finds no stay acceptable, because the victims of the crimes in those stays didn't find it very acceptable either. But for six months they sat on a report that pointed out these issues.

[ Page 9222 ]

Judge after judge in this province has passed judgment on this government's handling of our legal and justice system and has come to the same conclusion: not enough judges, not enough funding, a government that has no plan, that is in the midst of another review. So if we can't count the trees, perhaps we can count the number of judges, conclude there's a problem and fix it.

I call on the Attorney General today. Can she commit to one solitary action today in this House that's going to stop criminals from walking free?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, in the last two years this government has added 23 judges across the province. Perhaps the members opposite should just for a moment look at the fact — British Columbians should know this too — that every time a judge is added to the system, it adds up to $1.4 million. That includes salaries, administrative staff. It's up to $1.4 million. We've added 23 of those judges.

We've looked at innovation. We've looked at reform. We've looked at the success, for example, of the drug court. The drug court had 196 graduates over ten years with significantly reduced recidivism. Those are the kinds of reforms we need to continue to look at.

We're going to continue to add resources where it's appropriate and when possible. But you know what? It's time that we actually asked and answered some of the questions that have plagued the justice system for decades in British Columbia.

FREEDOM-OF-INFORMATION

REQUEST ON PREVENTION OF

HOMOPHOBIC AND TRANSPHOBIC BULLYING

S. Chandra Herbert: Since 2009 when I joined this House, I've been calling for action to stop bullying against gay, lesbian, bi and trans youth. They face incredible bullying in their schools and incredible dropout rates. I have called for action from this government. The government, for the last 11 years, has been claiming they were acting — through press releases, through reviews — but through doing nothing for the students in our schools.

So when the Premier decided to announce yet again that they were going to do something, I decided to do a freedom-of-information request. I decided: let's find out what the government was actually doing. So I filed a request asking for all briefing notes, records, e-mails back and forth between the Minister of Education and the Premier, because the Premier claimed this would be the top priority for her Education Minister.

And you know what I found? You know how much of a priority this is for the B.C. Liberal government? What I got were four blank pages. That's it — four blank pages to deal with the crisis facing our youth.

So my question to the minister responsible for freedom of information: does she believe that four blank pages in response to "all records" is acceptable? Or is it just that this is how much seriousness the Liberals place towards this issue?

[1420]

Hon. M. MacDiarmid: Certainly, generally speaking for all of us on this side of the House, and I think on that side of the House as well, we take this issue very seriously. As to the specifics of the member opposite's request, freedom-of-information requests are handled by staff according to policy that we have, and the minister is not involved in that in any way.

[End of question period.]

Orders of the Day

Hon. R. Coleman: We will continue this afternoon with second reading of Bill 18, intituled Advanced Education Statutes Amendment Act.

Second Reading of Bills

BILL 18 — ADVANCED EDUCATION

STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2011

Hon. N. Yamamoto: I move that Bill 18, the Advanced Education Statutes Amendment Act, 2011, be now read a second time.

Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister.

Hon. N. Yamamoto: Bill 18 amends a number of statutes.

Amendments to the Architects Act authorize the Architectural Institute of B.C. to engage in dispute resolution like most other professions.

[L. Reid in the chair.]

This will enable the institute to resolve conduct complaints directly and efficiently through a process that is defined within the legislation and through the ability of the institution to create bylaws. This is important because AIBC is a self-regulating professional association, and the legislation needs to reflect its responsibilities as such.

We all know that post-secondary education plays a key role in our province's future. We want to make sure that every British Columbian has the opportunity to succeed and be the very, very best that they can be. Ensuring good jobs that build our economy and support our families is obviously our number one priority.

To help meet that goal, my ministry must ensure that accessible, affordable, high-quality post-secondary education and training opportunities are available. It means that we as a government are obligated to ensure that those

[ Page 9223 ]

who are charged with overseeing our post-secondary institutions are doing so in a manner that is fair and without conflict.

We have an opportunity today to strengthen governance practices within boards of post-secondary institutions by ensuring that board members are united in their commitment to act in the best interests of their institutions and ultimately are held accountable to students, taxpayers and all the citizens of British Columbia.

Amendments to the College and Institute Act, Royal Roads University Act and the University Act will clarify matters pertaining to the appointed and elected members of the boards of our public post-secondary institutions.

Post-secondary boards are unique. Unlike city councils or school boards, faculty members are allowed to sit on an institution's board. This will not change. We support having faculty members providing their voice as board members. By making a change that better empowers our boards, we are strengthening governance.

As a government, we are being proactive with this change because we know that conflicts of interest can happen. Other jurisdictions — Alberta, Manitoba and Ontario, for example — already have legislation that better protects post-secondary institutions from potential conflicts at the board level.

The changes we are introducing will (1) add an overall duty of board members to act in the best interests of the institution; (2) specify the circumstances in which a board member elected by faculty, staff or students would be ineligible to serve; and (3) provide that through a two-thirds vote, our boards will be able to remove an elected individual who is in conflict or for reasons of his or her conduct.

Further changes will be implemented based on consultations that have taken place recently.

Provisions are already in place allowing us to remove an appointed board member, and this change will ensure quality at the board level. This gives the board the power, through a two-thirds resolution, to take steps to remove someone in conflict. Currently that power does not exist. If a person is in conflict and does not step down, the board is powerless. This is why these amendments are necessary.

[1425]

Participating as a member of a board of directors is an important responsibility, and we want to make sure that our legislation reflects the importance of this role.

In addition, an amendment to the College and Institute Act clarifies that board members must elect a chair from amongst the eight board members appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. This amendment will ensure that the chair of each board is a community member. It's important to ensure that our institutions are ultimately governed by people who are not employed by the same institutions and, therefore, objective.

Other changes in this bill will make amendments to the Royal Roads University Act and the University Act to repeal provisions that permit an appointed board member of the board of governors to serve after conclusion of his or her appointment term until the appointment of a successor.

Post-secondary education in B.C. is a partnership between government, our institutions and our students. We must strike a balance that ensures that institutions are able to manage their day-to-day affairs while still safeguarding the rights of all concerned and ensure that students are getting the very best educational opportunities possible. Quite simply, we want to ensure that students have options — what and where they study and the ability to make education and career decisions that make the most sense for them.

That's why it's important for us to understand the educational choices of anyone who accesses post-secondary education in B.C., including private institutions. By keeping track of what students study and where and when they go to school, we can ensure that post-secondary education is meeting the needs for the future.

Right now there's a small but very important segment of post-secondary students whose educational choices are not captured by our regular data-gathering processes. Amendments to the School Act and post-secondary legislation will enable phased expansion of the application of personal education numbers to student records of those attending private institutions. By capturing this information, we can ensure that we have the most complete understanding of B.C.'s post-secondary student body and their choices and needs with regard to post-secondary education. It will give us a more fulsome picture of where students go after graduation.

Supporting education is a fundamental priority for this government. Over the last ten years our post-secondary system has become more accessible, more affordable and more competitive than ever before. By amending post-secondary statutes today, we are further strengthening B.C.'s position for the future and creating an environment that supports a strong economy, healthy communities and good jobs to support our families.

Deputy Speaker: I recognize the member for Nelson-Creston as designated speaker.

M. Mungall: Well, this bill is a very interesting bill. Of course, the vast majority of it is very important legislation that needed to come forward for quite some time, so the members on this side of the House are pleased to see that. Of course, these are the sections pertaining to the personal education numbers that the minister has already discussed, as well as the sections pertaining to the Architects Act. These are important pieces of legislation. We do want to see those go forward, and we are in support of those sections.

However, there is a glaring problem in this bill. That

[ Page 9224 ]

problem is summed up in sections 18 through 20, 49 and 50. So what are those sections? Well, the minister spoke mostly in her introduction of this bill about those sections, so I'll just go through them for the record and for the people who are watching at home.

Section 19 is amending

section 11 in the College and Institute Act.

Section 19 says: "Despite subsections (1) and (2), the Lieutenant Governor in Council may, on a resolution passed by the vote of at least a 2/3 majority of the members of the board, remove from office a member of the board elected under

section 9 (1) (b), (

c) or (d)" — so that's students, staff and faculty — "if the board is satisfied that the person should be removed for cause."

[1430]

Section 20 amends

section 59 of the College and Institute Act by adding the following subsection:

Sections 49 and

Section 49 amends the University Act in the following way: "Despite

section 19, the Lieutenant Governor in Council may, on a resolution passed by the vote of at least a 2/3 majority of the members of the board, remove from office a member of the board elected under

section 19 (1) (c), (

e) or (

f) or (2) (c), (d), (f), (g), (

h) or (

i) if the board is satisfied that the person should be removed for cause."

Section 50, very similar to

section 20 of this bill, says that it will amend the legislation of which I'm speaking in

section 23.

Now, I've read those out for members of this chamber but also for people who are watching or listening at home or in their offices or people who are going to be looking up this transcript later on through Hansard Services and don't have to go looking for Bill 18. They know the sections that we're talking about, word for word, because this will all be recorded in Hansard .

What this

section does is essentially change the relationship of the board of governors who have been appointed — the members who have been appointed — with those who are elected by students, staff and faculty.

Some historical background here. In 1970 universities first had their boards of governors, which…. Actually, in Canada overall it's about a hundred-year tradition, boards of governors. So in 1970, B.C. universities got their boards of governors, and in 1994 colleges and institutes started to have boards of governors as well, to provide governance for public post-secondary institutions.

They decided at those times to include elected representatives from students, staff and faculty on equal footing with appointed members from the government so that they all had similar responsibilities and so that nobody was of a higher class, let's say, or in a higher power position — maybe another way to say it — on the board of governors.

That's the tradition. It has always worked well. There have been very, very few cases where there have been problems, and those problems have been addressed at the board of governors level. Because there haven't been considerable problems, this is not something that has come, as a problem that needs to be addressed by government, from students, staff or faculty or even the administration or the boards of governors of our public post-secondary institutions. So why are we seeing these changes?

As the minister pointed out, what these changes do, as I've been alluding to, is they change the relationship between the board members on our boards of governors in public post-secondary institutions. It gives two-thirds of the board the right to oust any of the elected members.

[1435]

Now, on many boards of governors, two-thirds majority of the board just happen to be Liberal appointees. Those appointees have the ability to remove anyone who has been elected by students, staff or faculty. So the duly elected members of these organizations, these bodies, no longer have the right to sit on a board if a two-thirds majority say no.

It's equivalent to a two-thirds majority of this House attempting to oust any other member. I was elected by the good people of Nelson-Creston. I am responsible to them. I'm also responsible to the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. And there isn't a person in this House who has difficulty meeting that dual responsibility — just like on boards of governors, where we haven't seen a litany of difficulties with people meeting those dual responsibilities.

But here we are, saying that for a board of governors a two-thirds majority, those who are appointed, have the ability to remove those who are elected. We wouldn't consider that for this House. In fact, we would call it purely antidemocratic. Yet the B.C. Liberal government sees this as a perfectly acceptable way to develop governance for our public post-secondary institutions. It's absolutely nonsensical.

This piece of legislation also states that employees of a public post-secondary institution may not sit on the board of governors. That means that faculty and staff associations are no longer able to choose whom they would like from amongst their members. Rather, they can only choose people who have perhaps retired or perhaps are

[ Page 9225 ]

unaffiliated with the institution — despite what the minister was asserting. She was saying that faculty members can still be on the boards, but not if they are an employee of the institution. It makes no sense, and I question if she knows what she is even talking about.

Here we are, faced with a situation where these sections are highly problematic. They are antidemocratic. They contravene the very concept of good governance that we have developed in a longstanding tradition with public post-secondary institutions, but also the very one that we're standing in right now. When you are elected by a specified body, you have a responsibility to that body, and you also have a responsibility to the organization to which you are elected. That dual function has been carried out very well, in the same vein that it has been carried out very well by members of this House.

I'm sure that the people of Nelson-Creston or the people of Vancouver-Kensington or the people of Vancouver-Langara or Prince George–Valemount would all be shocked and absolutely disgusted to find out that by a two-thirds majority vote, their representative could be ousted from this House. It makes no sense, Madam Speaker, no sense at all, that somehow what we would find completely unacceptable for this House…. Yet we are applying it to the boards of governors of public institutions.

[1440]

Now, when we say that this is antidemocratic, I think it's also important to note that this

section is very questionable in terms of its adherence to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In fact,

section 2(

c) of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms specifically states that each resident of this country has the freedom of assembly. Yet this

section is saying that faculty associations and staff associations are not allowed to associate with their representative to the boards of governors because they cannot be an employee and they cannot be associated with their executive boards. So that remains in question.

Another further point on this is that the minister went on at length that this legislation was going to address conflict of interest for board members at public post-secondary institutions. Well, this type of legislation to do that is unprecedented. It has not been done anywhere else, and it is a very odd way to approach this.

It's not just me saying that but the people who live this work day in and day out, who have been in this field for their careers. They say exactly that. In fact, Cindy Oliver, who is the president of the Federation of Post-Secondary Educators, in talking to CHNL in Kamloops when this legislation was first proposed back in November said exactly that — that this legislation is unwarranted, and it's unprecedented across the country. She also said that her organization is going to fight it.

Well, here we are in the Legislature in February, when this bill first came forward in November. The minister has had the opportunity to meet with the Canadian university faculty association as well as the Federation of Post-Secondary Educators. She has had the opportunity to meet with BCGEU, with CUPE.

She has had the opportunity to meet with students. They've all spoken to her about this bill, all telling her their opposition to it and also their complete and utter lack of understanding of how she could put such legislation forward without even consulting them.

Here's an example from the Vancouver Community College Faculty Association. It says that they were recently in Victoria…. Actually, this is a letter to the minister. I'll quote directly from this letter. "I was recently in Victoria and met with you and your deputy as part of the FPSE president's council delegation. A theme woven through all our presentations was that we wish to be authentically included in the discussion of post-secondary issues." Yet they were not consulted.

There was no discussion about these types of amendments that this bill proposes with the faculty associations anywhere in British Columbia before the minister stood up and put the bill forward in the House — no discussion at all.

So no surprise when they say this in their letter to the minister: "We are at a loss as to what problem these provisions are attempting to address. Perhaps with a real conversation or two, they could have been addressed with less confrontation." That's exactly how faculty associations and students and staff associations are feeling about this bill.

They feel that this has just been thrown at them. They feel like it is a slap in the face from this government because this government assumes that they were not acting in the best interest of their institutions when they were on boards of governors. That is what this government assumes, but that is not the reality.

[1445]

This government assumes that the conflict-of-interest rules that presently govern our public post-secondary institutions are not sufficient. This minister basically said that they're looking to have a fair process without conflict on boards of governors, suggesting in her opening remarks that somehow the conflict of interest is happening all the time, that there is no mechanism to resolve conflict of interest on boards. She even said that boards have no ability to remove somebody when they are in conflict of interest.

Let's look at this. Let's look at if that's truly the case. I'm looking at Camosun College's board conduct bylaw. The purpose and rationale of this board conduct bylaw is that members of the board must avoid any conflict of interest. Well, here we go. We're actually going to be talking about a conflict-of-interest bylaw that governs the conduct of boards of governors. "Members of the board must avoid any conflict of interest that might impair or impugn the independence, integrity or impartiality of their board. There must be no apprehension of bias based on what a reasonable person might perceive. Members of the board

[ Page 9226 ]

who are in any doubt must disclose their circumstances and consult with the chair."

Well, Camosun has already thought about what they would do if somebody failed to do just that, here in

section B(2) of their board conduct bylaw, titled "Handling a Breach to the Code of Ethics." "When a breach to the code of ethics has been identified, the board chair will take whatever action he or she believes is appropriate based on the nature and severity of the breach. Such action may include, but is not limited to: warning, reprimand, suspension from the board." There we have it, Madam Speaker. Camosun College has the ability to remove somebody from the board if they do not disclose their conflict of interest.

The minister asserted in this House that these types of things did not exist, but here they are in black and white.

If Camosun College doesn't suit her fancy, maybe let's go to rules of the board of governors at Simon Fraser University. Here, in their rules, they have

section 9. What is it titled? "Conflict of Interest." It defines conflict of interest and goes into detail of how a member of the board must declare their conflict of interest.

It even says when a conflict of interest arises so that there can be no doubt of what it is.

"A conflict of interest arises when a member's other interests may put into question the independence, impartiality and objectiveness that members are obliged to exercise in the performance of their duties. A conflict of interest may be financial or otherwise.

"It is the responsibility of a member to identify a conflict of interest to the chair of the board in writing, or verbally at a board meeting if the conflict arises without notice."

Once a conflict of interest has been declared, "the chair will determine the matters in which a member with a conflict of interest may not participate and may make one or more rulings in a particular case. The chair my seek advice from the governance committee." And of course, they make annual declarations of conflict of interest, as well, at SFU. So here we have it. At SFU they have full rules in which boards of governors must adhere to conflict of interest declarations.

University of Victoria provides another example.

Section 5 of the "Procedures of the Board at University of Victoria" defines "conflict of interest and confidentiality."

[1450]

"The board of governors of the university has a variety of functions to perform under the University Act. The composition of this board is complex, and it is possible that conflict of duty or interest may arise in the case of any member of the board.

"A conflict…arises when a board member exercises an official power or performs an official duty or function and at the same time knows that in the performance of this duty or function or in the exercise of power there is an opportunity to further a private interest. Further, there is an apparent conflict of interest when there is a reasonable perception that the board member's ability to exercise an official power or perform an official duty or function will be or was affected by a private interest."

So boards of governors and all members sitting on boards of governors are well aware of what a conflict of interest is and what they need to do when they are faced with a conflict of interest and the repercussions if they do not take action.

I've read out some of the rules from three institutions. I could go on all afternoon, Madam Speaker, but I'm sure that for your own interest, you'd be happy if I did not do that.

But the point is made. The point is made that this type of legislation, which is antidemocratic, which possibly contravenes the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, is absolutely not necessary.

I hear a few snickers when I say that it possibly contravenes the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Well, I dare say that the members of the B.C. Liberal government are going to find out when it has to go through court, when they have to spend taxpayers' dollars defending this type of legislation — legislation that nobody advocated for, that nobody was consulted for — against a Charter challenge. They are going to spend taxpayers' dollars to do that.

They don't have the money, they say, to put into financial needs–based grants for students to make post-secondary education more affordable and to address student debt load, which, despite the minister's comments in the newspaper, is exactly what students are talking about. They don't have the money to eliminate interest rates.

They don't have the money to increase funding to address structural deficit issues at public post-secondary institutions, deficit issues that have been a result of net zero funding increases — in other words, cutbacks — as post-secondary institutions face increasing costs and yet not parallel increased funding. They are experiencing cutbacks.

No money for that, but apparently we have money to hire some lawyers to defend this type of legislation, which is not needed, which is not wanted, in court. What are they trying to prove? What are they trying to prove? Well, that's exactly what many people have been asking me. They've asked it of the minister, but she hasn't been responding.

Many people find this legislation, as I said earlier, a slap in the face. They find it confrontational. They find it unnecessary, obviously. They don't understand where it's coming from or what this government is all about, other than…. Well, it makes no sense.

We can theorize all day long about why on earth the Liberal minister would put this forward, when clearly there are other more pressing issues in public post-secondary education. Why on earth would she put this forward? We can speculate on that. But instead, let's try and convince her otherwise — that maybe she can do the honourable thing and remove these sections from the legislation, on her own, when we get to third reading of this bill. But since she hasn't been saying that publicly…. She seems to have not been listening to what people are saying about these particular sections of this bill.

Again, reminding her and this House that the vast

[ Page 9227 ]

majority of this bill is great. It is just fine. We've needed to see this legislation come forward. We're glad to see it come forward. Why on earth you would stick these sections in it is beyond us.

[1455]

But I would like to take this opportunity, because the minister has been meeting with people and yet hasn't been hearing what they say. Not only has she been meeting with people, but I know that she has received over a thousand letters on this issue — people in opposition to the sections of this bill. Yet here we are in this House. She had the opportunity between November and now to have rescinded these sections. She could have done that, but she hasn't. So what is she not hearing?

Well, let me take this opportunity now, Madam Speaker, to share with you and this House and the minister what she ought to be hearing if she's picking up any of those thousands of letters that she's heard.

This letter here is from a Camosun College student, Madeline Keller-MacLeod. She writes:

"Bill 18 is an unprecedented attack on democracy, post-secondary stakeholders and the right of students to organize in many ways. Currently, faculty and staff at post-secondary institutions elect representatives to post-secondary boards of governors.

"Bill 18 seeks to undermine staff and faculty representation by taking away their right to elect presidents of those constituencies. This takes away the voice of that person who has already been elected as the best representative of their constituency group. This is a direct attempt to get rid of the voices of the staff and faculty representative, who often have the most experience and knowledge of the issues faced by both their constituency and how those issues affect students.

"That staff, students and faculty would be expected to act only in the best interests of the institution is another attack on democracy. Bill 18 seeks to intimidate student, faculty and staff representatives into no longer feeling safe representing the interests of the constituency which elected them. Bill 18 does not take away the right of stakeholders to democratically elect representatives but instead legislates that constituency representatives may not represent those who elect them.

"Bill 18 again attacks democracy by leaving the decision of who may represent constituency groups not to members of those constituencies but to the individual opinions of members of boards of governors. While a constituency representative could very well believe they are representing both their constituency and the institution, if members of the board of governors disagree, they may vote to recommend to take away the voice of that constituency.

"Even if a constituency representative is representing the best interests of their constituency over the interests of the institution as a physical entity, that is their democratic right. Neither the B.C. government nor the board of governors appointees have the right to undermine the democratic rights of B.C. citizens.

"For example, the members of the Camosun College board of governors voted last year to cut 19 staff and faculty positions. Because it would save the college money, they believed this was in the best interests of the institution. However, from the point of view of a staff, faculty or student, this is neither in the best interests of the constituency nor the institution, as declining numbers of classes and the mounting pressure on teachers to overcrowd their classes ends up driving students to other institutions.

"Classes and programs are being cut every year, literally forcing students to leave Camosun and find another place to finish their educations, and this certainly is not the best interest of the institution. We cannot forget that students, faculty and staff are the stakeholders in regards to post-secondary education. Most importantly, our Minister of Advanced Education should not forget this reality.

"Stakeholder voices need to be heard and respected, our opinions need to be taken seriously, and our concerns need to be addressed. Instead, Bill 18 threatens to take stakeholder voices away and aims to intimidate constituency representatives into accepting the B.C. Liberals' agenda of cutting funding services year after year until post-secondary institutions are no longer able to function.

"As this is the path that we are on, and as stakeholder representatives, not B.C. Liberal appointees, seem to be the ones fighting for the improvement of post-secondary education in B.C., it is apparent that Bill 18 is an attack on those who are willing to fight for the best interests of stakeholders, of institutions and of the health of our society and economy alike.

[1500]

"Bill 18 is an attempt to squash the voices that are willing to stand up for what is right, the voices who are willing to admit that what the minister calls our world-class education system is actually falling apart. If Bill 18 passes legislation, it will be a disaster for B.C. post-secondary education."

That is a student writing that — she's very concerned — right here in Victoria, at Camosun College.

There are many people who are adding their voices to their opposition to Bill 18. Like I said, they have been writing the minister, and yet the minister continues to move this bill forward and ignore the very real concerns that are coming from British Columbians all across this province.

That is why I'm taking this time to share with her those voices, their concerns, so that there is no mistake that their voices are on record.

This letter here is from Brian McGibney. He is a workshop coordinator for the fine arts department at Langara College in Vancouver, British Columbia.

"Dear Madam Premier and Minister:

"I am writing you to express my grave concerns over possible passage of Bill 18, the Advanced Education Statutes Amendment Act, specifically the portion of this proposed legislation that restricts the concurrent associations and activities staff may be involved with while serving as a duly elected staff representative to the Langara College board of governors.

"I have been employed at Langara College as a workshop coordinator, fine arts department, since 1984. In addition to my regular duties within my department, I have served on countless standing and ad hoc committees, including but not limited to occupational health and safety, inaugural member of Langara council, numerous search committees for senior positions, member of the APSES committee, member of the committee to initiate our continuing studies area and the joint labour relations committee.

"In addition, I am a steward and have served as a bargaining committee member and job evaluation rep."

So here we are. We have somebody who knows the ins and outs of bargaining, who knows the ins and outs of a relationship between a board of governors and a faculty association. He is writing with grave concerns for this bill.

He goes on:

"I am an unabashed Langaran."

I am sure it will delight the member for Vancouver-Langara that she has such a devout constituent for Langara College.

"I am both knowledgable and proud of the variety and quality of offerings we provide. I have seen so many student lives enriched and changed through the things we do here, and I could write a book."

[ Page 9228 ]

I hope he does.

"I am also so proud of the things that I have been able to accomplish in my capacity as both a steward and bargaining committee member. In the main, Langara College enjoys a cordial, respectful, progressive and effective labour relations climate, and I am proud for the small part that I have contributed to make that the norm.

"Furthermore, I am well aware and respectful of the notions of conflict of interest and confidentiality. I know which hat I wear and take great pains to keep individual responsibilities discrete.

"Given the above, you can doubtless see why I am concerned. I can only speak for what I know at Langara, and that is simply that people who are passionate about and involved in their institution will tend to get involved through the structures that allow them to do the most good.

"All major colleges in B.C. operate in an organized labour environment. Those that seek to input leadership and guidance to the organization who are not part of the excluded, non-union group will, by functional necessity, be elected or appointed union members.

"I feel quite comfortable in asserting that at Langara the current legislation and its attendant operational bylaws function well. Where there is a perceived conflict or a real conflict, I and my LFA counterpart absent ourselves from the relevant portions of the proceedings.

[1505]

"As was clearly delineated in the original bill, the elected support staff rep is there to represent support staff and the greater interests of the institution and not the association that holds the bargaining certification. I fully understand and strive to adhere to that intention. I can only speculate what incident or incidents are responsible for the current proposed legislative changes, but I wish to bring to your attention what I foresee as a considerable negative, unintended consequence.

"Current board structure at Langara consists of eight appointed members, two student reps and one each of faculty and staff. Appointed board members usually bring in financial, legal, business and other skill sets and ensure that the college is adhering to the GLE and maintaining fiscal prudence.

"Student governors bring the critical student perspective. Unfortunately, given the nature of our offerings, student governors rarely serve more than two years and more frequently less. Elected governors, along with board resource staff, in my opinion are the glue and the bridge that help to get appointed and student governors inside what makes Langara what it is and, in keeping with the strategic plan, where it is going and what it wants to be.

"Again, I assert that to restrict participation of support staff or faculty on the basis of other activities will significantly impact the available cohort of engaged, informed and motivated employee governors and, by extension, diminish the overall effectiveness of boards of governors throughout the post-secondary system. I would humbly suggest that if there are discrete circumstances where the safeguards have not been effective they be dealt with on a singular basis and not be a template to fix what is, in my experience, not broken.

"As my students and colleagues will tell you, I am a solutions-driven person. I understand the need to maintain transparent, accountable governance processes. However, as my dear departed nana said, we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

"Thank for your consideration regarding this matter.

"Brian McGibney."

Madam Speaker, just from this letter alone, you can see how personal this is for people. That they have been serving for many, many years and been actively involved with the institution where they work for many years and to suddenly have this type of legislation…. Well, as Mr. McGibney said, he could only speculate where it's coming from, but it will absolutely have negative consequences.

Many others have written. Here's another person from Langara College. She works in the library. This is Sara Rose, and she writes to the minister:

"Why does Bill 18 ban union activists from sitting as elected representatives on college or university boards of governors? As someone who works at Langara College, I am not aware of any problems on our board of governors resulting from having staff and faculty representatives sit on the board, even when those same people have also been active in the union or staff association.

"There are clear conflict-of-interest guidelines in place for all board members. With so many other challenges facing our colleges and universities, it doesn't make sense to me that you are spending energy worrying about phantom problems that might result from having employees with union experience on our board of governors.

"Can you please explain what the problem is? What is Bill 18 intended to fix? And why is this such a priority for you and your ministry?"

Good questions. Good questions.

Again, we have another person from Langara College. This is Jasna Sedlar, and she writes:

"I work in the post-secondary education sector at Langara College. I am a union member and am passionate about not only my college but very strongly about democracy and human rights and, in a country that is a member of the G8, very much so about post-secondary education for our children and their children and future generations.

"I would be ashamed in front of my children if I didn't try to make B.C. a better place to live, like so many people before me. Don't let B.C. go back in democracy. All voices should be heard and considered for decisions that affect us all. We can't live without everybody else.

"Can you please explain why you and your government think that I am not qualified to be an elected representative on the boards of governors? Bill 18 is discriminating against union activists, against employees and against people. It's also killing democracy in a subtle way."

[1510]

This person is clearly very passionate and very concerned about Bill 18.

She concludes:

"One piece at a time, until we come back where we were centuries ago."

I have another letter here from a B.C. Government Employees Union…. Many of the staff keep our post-secondary institutions humming. They clean the floors. They serve us food at the cafeterias. These are important people to keep our institutions thriving, and they too have been impacted by Bill 18.

This is Liam Odell. He writes:

"Dear Minister:

"I'm a BCGEU member, and I believe that Bill 18 is antidemocratic and discriminatory to ban union activists from serving on college, university and institutes' boards of governors. In fact, this legislation may well contravene our members' constitutional rights to freedom of association.

"B.C.'s conflict-of-interest legislation already contains clear guidelines regarding the conduct of members of public bodies. Union activists are no more in a potential conflict of interest as a regular unionized staff member than those who are both equally affected by board decisions. I am respectfully asking that the B.C. government withdraw Bill 18 and remove the amendments to the College and Institute Act that erode the democratic rights of their

[ Page 9229 ]

employees and students."

This letter comes from Nancy Forhan. She is the president of CUPE Local 2950 at UBC. She also wants to make it known in her letter that she resides in Vancouver East and is a taxpayer as well. This is her letter:

"My name is Nancy Forhan, and I have worked at the University of British Columbia for over 40 years. I am a proud taxpayer, mother, grandmother and community activist. I am also a proud member of the Canadian Union of Public Employees and currently sit as president of Local 2950 at UBC.

"I am writing this to you on Remembrance Day 2011. It's especially important on this day that we reflect on the rights and freedoms our veterans fought and died to protect. One of those freedoms is the freedom of association. If passed, your government's Bill 18 would ban union members from serving on a university board of governors. As egregious, it would actually allow democratically elected members of the board to be removed by the appointed board members.

"This proposed legislation would further prohibit members of unions or associations who serve on their bargaining committees or local executives from also serving on their institution's board of governors. There is no doubt these proposed changes specifically target union representatives and erode the democratic rights of our members."

Indeed, it's hard to come to any other conclusion. I can appreciate what Ms. Forhan is saying, because these types of provisions are just not there for any of the appointees that the Liberals have put on boards of governors.

Ms. Forhan goes on:

"Given the challenges currently facing the post-secondary education sector across B.C., it's disappointing that this is the area you and your ministry have identified as being in dire need of repair. Your Bill 18 discriminates against all working people in British Columbia. It is punitive and vindictive against unionized workers in B.C.

"I would respectfully urge you to direct our province's limited resources into areas that would actually improve the quality of life for public sector workers across British Columbia and the quality of education for our students."

She concludes:

"I would welcome an opportunity to discuss these concerns with you or your ministry in person."

People are very affected by this, and they are very concerned and want the opportunity to tell the minister exactly what they feel and have been willing for months to negotiate with her on how better to address the concerns that she has brought up and decided to use this type of legislation to address.

[1515]

This letter comes from Trina — and I apologize if I am mispronouncing Trina's last name here — Ojo. She is at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey. She writes:

"Dear Minister:

"I have been informed by my union that Bill 18 bans union activists from sitting as elected representatives on college, institute and university boards of governors. I am concerned to hear this, as I believe that they should be allowed to sit on these boards of governors if they are elected to by their peers to do so.

"Will you please explain why this bill is being submitted? I am an employee at Kwantlen Polytechnic University, and I am not aware of any problems that have occurred from electing staff and faculty representatives to our board, as mandated by the College and Institute Act, even when these people may have been active in their union.

"Based on my current understanding of this legislation, I believe it to be antidemocratic and discriminatory to ban union activists from serving on our boards of governors. In fact, the legislation may well contravene our members' constitutional rights to freedom of association.

"I am respectfully asking that the B.C. government withdraw Bill 18."

I have several letters here. I will continue to read many of them, but I'd like to highlight this one in particular because the minister will be very interested in where it comes from. It comes from the Capilano Students Union. Capilano University, as the minister will know, is in her own backyard, and she formerly sat on the board of governors at Capilano University.

This one, this letter here, is from the students union. They write:

"Dear Minister:

"We are writing to you as a student society, speaking on behalf of the members that we represent, to express our concern about specific provisions contained in Bill 18, the Advanced Education Statutes Amendment Act, and to request that your government reconsider its decision to pursue these parts of the act.

"Students in British Columbia are major stakeholders in the post-secondary education system and are responsible for a significant share of systemwide revenues. Appropriately, students are elected to the board of governors of a post-secondary institution by their peers.

"The basis of our concern is that provisions in Bill 18, which was given first reading in the Legislature on November 3, make changes to a board of governors in a way that undermines this representation. These changes are detrimental to the organizational capacity of post-secondary institutions and to the long-term quality of post-secondary education.

"If adopted, sections 19, 34 and 49 of Bill 18 would amend the College and Institution Act and University Act to allow a board of governors regulated under those pieces of legislation to remove from office any elected student, faculty or employee representative on the board.

"Our concerns with these proposed amendments are threefold. First, they are unwarranted and without any reasonable or defensible justification."

That is the determination of the students in the minister's own backyard.

"Secondly, they will undermine the representation of students in post-secondary governance. Thirdly, the act was brought to the Legislature without any evidence of meaningful student consultation.

"It is worth noting that sections 20, 32 and 50 of the act disqualify any employee from holding office who is a voting executive or officer of an association of the university with a potentially competing responsibility from those duties of the board. If the government feels that there is an issue with conflict of interest, it is best pursued through specific conflict-of-interest legislation rather than the current course of action.

"We believe that the removal of an elected board member should not be at the discretion of the board under any circumstance.

Whereas students, faculty and employees are elected by their peers, their removal from office should also be at the sole discretion of their peers. The ability for a board of governors to have only certain classes of its members removed from office would result in a governance structure that has a democratic deficit and moves away from the collegial mode of governance.

"Given that the act proposes to require a board of governors to act in the best interests of

[ Page 9230 ]

the university, it will be more important than ever for students to freely choose their representatives and for those representatives to be able to act in the best interests of the universities without fear of reprisal. We request that the act be amended to delete

part 19, 34 and 49.

[1520]

"Our societies are interested in working collaboratively with the government to address any concern that they have about student participation in university governance. We strongly feel that we can come to an agreement that does not restrict the rights of students while still allowing the proper functioning of the university.

"Sincerely,

"We, the undersigned,

"David Clarkson, executive committee chairperson of Capilano Students Union

"Tara Paterson, chairperson of the University of Victoria Students Society"

So students in the minister's own backyard are expressing their opposition to this piece of legislation.

Students aren't alone. Of course, there are many people. Here we have Karen Ng from…. Well, I'm going to have to apologize because she doesn't list the institution where she's from. Let's say that she's just a general member of the public who is quite concerned about this. She writes:

"Dear Minister:

"Can you please explain why Bill 18 bans union activists from sitting as elected representatives on college, institute and university boards of governors? I am an employee at Douglas College and am not aware" — there we are; it wasn't under her name, but it's in her letter — "of any problems that have occurred from electing staff and faculty representatives to our board, as mandated by the College and Institute Act, even when these people may have been active in their union."

She goes on to say that the legislation may well contravene her and her members' constitutional rights to freedom of association. She also says:

"I am respectfully asking that the B.C. government withdraw Bill 18 and remove the amendments to the College and Institute Act that erode the democratic rights of their employees and students."

I have another letter. This one is from a gentleman named Titus Gregory, and Mr. Gregory writes:

"Dear Minister:

"As a former student member of the SFU board of governors, I am writing in opposition to sections 19, 34 and 49 of Bill 18, the Advanced Education Statutes Amendment Act. These sections provide that the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council may remove any elected member of a college or university board of governors for cause upon a two-thirds resolution of the board of governors of the institution in question.

"For decades provincial legislation has guaranteed to students, faculty and staff a say in the governance of their post-secondary institutions. I am aware of no evidence that this has caused problems. Sections 19, 34 and 49 of Bill 18 are 'solutions' to a nonexistent problem.

"Furthermore, these provisions are unbalanced, in that they provide no mechanism for removing an appointed member of the board of governors. The implication of this is that elected members — students, faculty and staff — are inherently untrustworthy,

whereas appointed members are presumed to be trustworthy. I am aware of no evidence supporting such an offensive proposition.

"In my experience, all members of the board of governors of Simon Fraser University, elected and appointed alike, acted with diligence and sincerity in the discharge of their duties.

"In addition, no definition is given of 'cause.' I am concerned that institutional administrators will seek to enact codes of conduct intending to force members of boards of governors to be excessively deferential to the institutional administration. In order to properly discharge their oversight role, board members must have the freedom to act without fear that their voices may be stifled by institutional administrators.

"Thank you for considering my views on this matter."

Well, I certainly do hope the minister considered these views. It doesn't seem that way, because she's moving forward with this bill — intact, as is — without making necessary changes that would remove what are considered to be very offensive sections to people who have dedicated their careers to public post-secondary education and to the very students who are at those institutions learning so that they can contribute their new skills and their new knowledge to the betterment of B.C.'s economy.

[1525]

The Canadian Association of University Teachers, of course, has also weighed in on this. They write to the minister:

"We are writing on behalf of the 66,000 academic staff represented by the Canadian Association of University Teachers at 124 universities and colleges across Canada to express concern about what we see as antidemocratic provisions in Bill 18.

"We recognize your government's desire to limit potential conflict of interest for elected members of boards of governors of B.C.'s public universities, colleges and institutes, but the provisions of Bill 18 go far beyond what might be necessary to achieve this end.

"Prohibiting leaders of faculty and staff associations from serving on boards of governors and empowering appointed and ex-officio members of boards to remove elected members of boards is a clear violation of democratic principle and practice. Not only are the proposals contrary to longstanding practice in British Columbia universities, colleges and institutes; they are also a reversal of a practice that worked well for many years across Canada.

"For more than 100 years, since the Flavelle royal commission in 1906, Canadian universities have been characterized by collegial governance structures, a recognition of the unique nature of post-secondary educational institutions, whose governance requires the active participation" — I'm going to say that again, just in case the minister wasn't paying attention; requires the active participation — "of the academic staff.

"We cannot imagine the B.C. government would want to exclude from a governance role those in whom the academic staff have shown trust by electing them leaders of their association. Nor can we imagine that your government wants to be seen to be giving the authority to unelected members of the board of governors to oust the elected members.

"We strongly urge you to amend your legislation by removing sections 19, 20, 32, 34, 49 and 50. We also strongly urge you to enter into discussions with our colleagues in the Confederation of University Faculty Associations of B.C. and the Federation of Post-Secondary Educators of B.C. to craft mechanisms that deal constructively with potential conflict of interest and institutional governance, while respecting democratic principles and the unique nature of our post-secondary institutions.

"Yours truly,

"Wayne Peters, president

"James Turk, executive director"

The minister did have meetings with the Canadian university faculty associations here in British Columbia. She did have meetings with the Federation of Post-Secondary Educators, and she did have meetings with student groups about Bill 18.

They wanted to negotiate with the minister, as they told

[ Page 9231 ]

me. They wanted to negotiate with this minister on how they can address any issues that she perceives to be occurring that have motivated her to allow for this type of legislation to come forward, because no one knew there was a problem.

Somebody in the ministry saw a problem and put this type of issue forward. They did not consult any of the people who would be impacted by this issue, which seems just a bad way to go about doing things, but it is the common way the B.C. Liberal government goes about doing things. There's no doubt about that. It's not the right way, but it is, unfortunately, the common way that this government conducts its business.

They didn't consult anybody. They just drafted this up and put it up, through this House, to the shock of everybody in the public post-secondary sector.

As the Canadian Association of University Teachers clearly states in their letter, they were shocked but willing to work with the minister to address her concerns.

[1530]

She has not heard what they were saying in their meetings with her and is moving ahead, clearly unashamed of the type of legislation that is coming forward from her ministry.

Here I have a letter from the Selkirk College Faculty Association. Of course, this is a faculty association near and dear to my heart, with Selkirk College being one of the two colleges in my constituency of Nelson-Creston. Of course, College of the Rockies has a campus in Creston, and Selkirk College has a campus in both Nelson and Kaslo — two campuses in Nelson as a matter of fact — with a very active student body and a very active faculty association as well. The faculty association at Selkirk College writes to the minister, and this is the president of the Selkirk College Faculty Association:

"Dear Minister:

"I am writing on behalf of my local executive as well as my members about our dismay about aspects of Bill 18, particularly the restriction of which members of the faculty may serve on the board of governors. Collegial governance is vital to the proper functioning of any institution, and faculty members have long played a unique and important role in the governance of our college. Removing any current elected faculty members of boards is undemocratic.

"Going forward, it would also restrict the democratic process as it will prevent certain faculty members from running either for the board or for a faculty association executive. Such a step will surely polarize the relationships between administrative and faculty groups at our college and for other colleges and universities across the province. We strongly urge you to consider amending the legislation before it is passed."

So here we hear again from people who have dedicated their entire careers to public post-secondary education feeling unvalued by this piece of legislation and asking the minister to reconsider these sections and to consider amending this legislation before it is passed. Let's hope that we do see that happen during the third reading of this bill.

Of course, when people dedicate their entire lives to a sector — in this case to teaching — and sharing their knowledge and their skills with future generations via the public post-secondary system, they do have an important role to play in the governance of that system. They do have an important voice that needs to be a part of the governance, and that voice does need to be on equal footing with the appointed members from this government.

But this legislation, as all of these people with, I can only imagine, hundreds of years of experience between them…. They say that will change. This legislation will undoubtedly change the relationship between the elected and the appointed members of the board, and it's not a change for the better.

I think the minister thinks this is quite innocuous legislation, but what we were hearing from the thousands of people who have expressed their opposition to this piece of legislation is that this is not an innocuous piece of legislation, that these sections are hugely problematic, and they need to be addressed with seriousness and care. However, despite all these letters, despite all these meetings, the minister clearly is ignoring the very real concerns of a large group of people in this province who have dedicated exceptional amounts of time and energy and a portion of their lives to the betterment of public post-secondary education.

[1535]

Madam Speaker, we've heard many letters. I've warned you that there are well over a thousand, and I know that you must be sitting there wondering if I'm going to plan to read over a thousand letters this afternoon, but I will not do that to you. Not that every single one of those voices is not equally important to the letters that I've already read. But in the interest of time, I think we're getting the gist of what people — whether they are students, faculty, broader associations, staff — are all saying about this legislation and the deep concerns they have about its anti-democratic nature, about its unintended consequences for a problem that just doesn't exist.

I've also canvassed three institutions' conflict-of-interest rules, highlighted that they address exactly what this minister claims to be addressing with this legislation, pointing out that this legislation is not needed, pointing out that it is unnecessary, that it's duplicating things that are already being done. We've heard from many people in these letters who have said they were shocked that they were not consulted but that they would be willing to work with the minister to address any perceived issues she has — but that these sections need to be rescinded. Given the opportunity, the minister has yet to do so.

So let's hope that will change when we get to third reading. If it doesn't change, the government of British Columbia will face a very real cost in having to defend this type of legislation against a legal challenge.

Now, the Federation of Post-Secondary Educators has said publicly that they will support a legal challenge of this bill because they believe that it is anti-democratic

[ Page 9232 ]

and contravenes their rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. BCGEU also agrees. The president of BCGEU, Darryl Walker, is quoted in a press release saying: "If enacted, this legislation would remove our members' constitutional right to freedom of association." He goes on to say: "The government cannot use conflict of interest as an argument either…. Conflict-of-interest legislation already regulates members of public bodies, and union activists are no more in conflict than regular union members who may sit on these boards."

The Federation of Post-Secondary Educators. The acronym is FPSE. Cindy Oliver, the president there, has said: "It is more than just an affront to our democratic rights; it's a full-on attack of our freedom-of-association rights that are spelled out in the Charter. We don't need to have another protracted battle at the Supreme Court to tell the Premier she is wrong, but if that's the only option available, that's where this proposed legislation will take us."

Should the minister refuse to take the opposition to this bill seriously, should she refuse to put her efforts in addressing the problems that exist within the sections of this bill — sections 18, 19, 20, 49 and 50 — she could very well be faced with the decision to be spending taxpayers' dollars on a legal battle.

She repeatedly says — and other members of this government, including the Premier, repeatedly say — that we just don't have the money. On this side of the House we say that we need to put money into financial needs–based grants for students. They say no, that's not possible.

[1540]

We say on this side of the House that we need to address interest rates for students on their student loans. They're facing, on average, a $27,000 debt load after a four-year program. That's a tremendous amount of debt for any young person to start off their life with. We say: "Let's address the interest rates." They say — and the minister was quoted along these lines: "Well, that's just not what students are talking about." Students are talking about the need to address tuition and tuition increases. Last year in a press release coming out of the ministry, students were told to just drink less coffee.

So we don't have the money, apparently, in this province, according to the B.C. Liberal government, to address any of the top-of-mind issues in public post-secondary education, but we do have the money to pay lawyers to defend sections of this legislation for a problem that no one in the sector has identified. This is ridiculous. This is, in fact, the very picture of ridiculousness. To suggest that we don't have the money to address student debt but that we have the money to pay lawyers to defend pieces of legislation that don't address any real problem in this province is ridiculous.

No problem: "We've got the money to deal with this." A real problem: "Sorry, folks, not interested. We don't have any money." I don't think it's a matter of money. I think it's a matter of will.

When I say that it's a matter of will, I think that in fact we've hit the nail on the head of why this piece of legislation exists. I think we've hit the nail on the head. The minister has been quoted in the Victoria Times Colonist in speaking on affordable post-secondary education.

When reporters were asking her what she's going to do about student debt load, in reference to the February 1 Day of Action for student groups across the country and all over British Columbia — I myself was in Kelowna at the University of British Columbia Okanagan campus at a student rally there talking with students about what were their top-of-mind issues around public post-secondary education, and they were, of course, tuition, affordability, debt load, grants — the minister's reply to that and to what students are saying, when she spoke with the Times Colonist , was: "For me, it's not where it's best, I think, to put our efforts."

It's not best to put her efforts into addressing mounting student debt, unaffordability and, along that same vein, deficits at colleges and universities, budgetary problems at colleges and universities, infrastructure deficits at colleges and universities. This is not where she's going to put her efforts. Rather, the minister has decided to put her efforts here on an issue where there was no lobbying, to the best of anyone's knowledge, in the public post-secondary sector, whom I've heard from.

I've talked with many, many people, including the executive director for the B.C. colleges association — their organization, which is called B.C. colleges — including the university administrators. Very much like the minister, I have toured all over this province speaking with students, faculty and administration at our public post-secondary institutions. I've managed to get to 20 schools so far. Many of them have multiple campuses, so I've been able to get to several campuses for one institution as well. None of them say that they were advocating for this type of legislation. So who knows where it was coming from?

[1545]

Before introducing it, this government, the B.C. Liberals, did absolutely no consultation whatsoever with anybody in this sector. Making sure that this type of legislation goes through is where the minister is going to put her efforts, but not addressing the top-of-mind issue for students, and that is student debt and reducing the interest rates on student loans. In my opinion, it's a bizarre choice, and it certainly isn't a choice that I would make.

It's a very bizarre choice that this is where she is putting her efforts and where the B.C. Liberal governments are putting their efforts on this important issue of public post-secondary education, especially at a time when the government has put forward its B.C. jobs plan with very little mention of the important role that public post-secondary plays in developing the skills in our labour force for the jobs of the future.

We know from the B.C. government's own studies that

[ Page 9233 ]

80 percent of jobs by 2017 are going to require some level of post-secondary education. We know that; 80 percent of jobs are going to require some level of post-secondary education. Is our labour force ready to fulfil that right now? It is not. Only 67 percent of our labour force has a post-secondary education — only 67 percent — so there is a discrepancy there.

That means we need to support people getting into post-secondary education so that we can address the jobs that are going to be open because of attrition and because of new jobs coming on line. Two-thirds of those jobs that are going to be opening up by 2017 are because of attrition. We know that's going to happen. Another third is predicted as a result of new jobs coming on line. So we know that we need to have an educated workforce. We know that.

We know that to support people getting into post-secondary education, we need to ensure that it is affordable for all income levels. We know that it needs to be accessible. We know that it needs to be available to students and prospective students, and we know that in this province right now affordability is at a crisis level for many, many families.

We know that we are shouldering students with incredible debt once they graduate, to the point that they are going to have difficulties in participating in the broader B.C. economy. They can't afford to get cars. They can't afford to do other major purchases like buying a home because they have such an incredible student debt load. We need them to make those types of purchases to keep our economy thriving. They can't do that.

The B.C. Liberals are setting up this province for a crisis, for a failure, when it comes to public post-secondary and their funding of it and student debt load. But that is not where the minister is putting her efforts when it comes to legislation and work in this House.

Instead, where she's putting her efforts is into pieces of legislation that have not been lobbied for, that address a problem no one has identified and that have had absolutely no consultation with the people it is affecting. It's a bizarre decision indeed, a very bizarre decision, and no one in the public seems to understand why on earth it's being done. But it's being done nonetheless. The minister is not offering any accountability as to why she's making the decision she is in terms of where she's putting in her efforts.

[1550]

That is a huge disappointment to every single British Columbian, to every single student, to every single person who has dedicated their lives to the education of future generations of British Columbians. It is unfortunate that it is happening. I truly do hope that the minister has heard all of the letters and that other members of this House have heard the words and the voices and the concerns expressed in the letters I read out.

I hope the minister has taken the time to sit down and look at the thousands of letters she has received, to contemplate the points that have been made in the meetings she's had with the Federation of Post-Secondary Educators, with Canadian university faculty associations, with administrators in institutions, as well as the student organizations.

I hope that if she does take that time — I'm sure she will; I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt that she will take that time — she will reflect on these sections and recognize that they are actually problematic and that she is creating a situation that can have long-term negative impacts for the governance of our public post-secondary institutions and that she'll be open to rescinding these sections of Bill 18 during third reading.

With that, I will take my seat and give the floor to another person. Before I do, I just want to make note that this is the longest speech I've ever delivered in this House — an hour and 23 minutes.

Interjection.

M. Mungall: I appreciate the members opposite and their encouragement for me to continue on, and I could. I have many, many letters.

Maybe one for the road. This one is from a faculty member at BCIT — Tracy Willcock. She is also a PhD candidate, so she's a faculty member and a student. She writes:

"Dear Minister:

"I am employed in the post-secondary education sector at BCIT. I'm a BCGEU union member and have chosen to take an active role in my workplace and in my union.

"Can you please explain to me why your government thinks I'm not qualified to sit as an elected staff representative on the board of governors? B.C.'s conflict-of-interest legislation already contains clear guidelines regarding the conduct of members of public bodies. Union activists like myself are no more in a potential conflict of interest as regular unionized staff members, who are both equally affected by board decisions.

"I believe that the legislation is antidemocratic and discriminatory — to ban union activists from serving on our board of governors. In fact, the legislation may well contravene my constitutional right to freedom of association."

She goes on:

"I am respectfully asking that the B.C. government withdraw Bill 18 and remove the amendments to the College and Institute Act that erode the democratic rights of their employees and students."

So that was one for the road — just replying to the encore that I received from members opposite.

With that, I have come to an hour and 25 minutes. In my first term that is the longest speech I've delivered in this House. I have enjoyed every minute of it, and I look forward to hearing the comments raised by my colleagues in this House.

Deputy Speaker: I will advise members that reading letters in their entirety does not fall under Erskine May. The suggestion is: quotation or extract from particular letters.

[ Page 9234 ]

R. Sultan: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me this opportunity to comment on Bill 18, the Advanced Education Statutes Amendment Act, 2011, which received first reading in this House on November 3.

[1555]

Just to summarize the act, it will amend five provincial statutes — the Architects Act, the Royal Roads University Act, the University Act, the College and Institute Act and the School Act. But as the member for Nelson-Creston has pointed out, it really boils down to three topics, two of which are important but perhaps not as contentious as the third.

They are the School Act amendment, which would assign PEN numbers to private post-secondary school students; the Architects Act, which would empower alternative dispute resolution as a means of resolving differences within that important professional association; and finally, the main topic of the debate in this House to date on Bill 18, the issue of the governance of publicly funded institutions of higher learning.

So let me comment on each of them in turn, perhaps in the length that the degree of contention warrants. The School Act, assigning a personal education number or PEN to all post-secondary private school students. Why is this deemed necessary by the government? It sounds somewhat technical, and it is. But I would perceive that with the influx into the private post-secondary sector in British Columbia over the last decade or so, which continues, the issues of who is attending, where they are from, how they are performing and what their plans are for the future are a rather critical demographic, labour and advanced-education planning issue.

I believe that stimulated by the jobs plan, which the Premier talks about frequently and our minister of labour and technology and tourism…. The government's plan is in fact to stimulate further post-secondary foreign student attendance at our shores, as it is indeed one of our excellent specialties. Of course, not all of these students are going to end up in our public universities. Many of them will probably end up in the private post-secondary sector where, frankly, our information as to exactly what's going on, I suspect, is not as great as it should be and certainly inferior to our knowledge of what's happening in the public sector.

So by the simple act of asking each student applying to adopt a number, we begin to have some means of tracking what's happening, and should it allow us to manage both private and public post-secondary education better, I think that measure will.

Turning to the second main feature of this omnibus act, the Architects Act, I will read the synopsis here. Amendments to this act will authorize the Architectural Institute of B.C., otherwise known as AIBC, "to engage in full consensual dispute resolution of professional conduct complaints as alternatives to full inquiries."

[D. Black in the chair.]

Furthermore, these amendments will ensure that agreements reached through consensual dispute resolution can be enforced in the same manner as those ordered by the disciplinary committee of that society.

While the field of architecture is certainly prestigious and important, I think the impact of the principle being enunciated here is worth emphasizing across all the professions. The professions are becoming more complicated, and livelihoods are becoming dependent on ever-higher degrees of advanced education. There's an increasing diversity of credentials being presented by people who want to practise these increasingly complicated professions.

So the management of the professions in this province, as elsewhere around the world, is becoming more complicated. And with issues of competence, a sensitive matter within any profession, contention is bound to arise. "How dare you say I do not know how to design a window on that office building. I'm going to fight that charge." And so they do, because their livelihood is frequently at stake.

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This results in disputes. They can end up in court, and sometimes they do. We have come to understand in recent days in this House the degree to which our courts have been expensive, delayed, staffed with people sometimes with their own agenda. It's a rather expensive and not very efficient alternative for dispute resolution.

Or as I personally experienced in my own profession, executive can seek remedies within the government asking them to, in effect, impose bylaws upon all of their members from Victoria on down — a very top-down solution — and give the executive of these associations the bigger hammer to enforce competence and discipline. At first blush perhaps not a bad idea, if as in my case you're talking about professional engineers.

We're reminded of the importance and, in fact, the lives that are at stake by the recent collapse of some bridge work — the falsework, I think it's called — under the Port Mann bridge, which brings to mind the collapse of the falsework under the ironworkers bridge with the death of a dozen or so ironworkers. I met one of the survivors, as it happens, last week in my riding. That falsework, that engineering better be done properly because in many cases, if it's not done properly, human lives can be sacrificed.

If that is indeed the stake in some of these professions, one need only turn to the health professions. I'm looking at the member for Vancouver-Langara, who is probably one of the most highly trained health professionals we have in British Columbia. What on earth are you doing wasting your time in politics, may I ask?

Government does not have the knowledge and competence to govern her profession. Only her peers can do that. If peers are going to administer peers, arguments, personalities or contention will arise. Are we going to run to the government and sort it out? I don't think so.

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We shouldn't, although it sometimes happens. Are we going to run to the courts? Heaven forbid. It's up to the peer-driven, self-governed organizations themselves, and I think alternative dispute resolution in that context makes a lot of sense.

I could talk about the importance of self-government in our professions as an aside. It would be drawing in extraneous issues, except to say that I think we give insufficient attention to the maintenance of healthy self-government in our self-governing institutions. I have said already that the government itself is incapable of doing so and, frankly, I don't think should even try. So much for the Architects Act and its broader implications.

Let's turn to the portion of this act which is in many ways the most controversial, and we certainly heard — what was it? — an hour and three-quarters of impassioned attack on some of the points made in Bill 18. The four points of particular interest affecting three of the acts involved in the college and university area are: one, the amendments will clarify matters pertaining to members of the boards acting in the best interest of the institution. Imposed upon them is the obligation to act in the best interest of the institution —

section 17.

Second point — the chair being elected. The stricture being imposed here…. I can understand why elected members drawn from faculty and students really think this is quite detestable — that this provision would prevent the possibility of an elected board member serving as chair of the institution. But those of us who have served on various boards in other contexts see the merit.

If we're going to have a board of directors at all, I think the purpose in

part is to keep an eye on what's going on at the operating level. So to have the chair drawn from the operating level is sort of undermining the whole purpose of having a board in the first place. That is a restriction that would be imposed under

section 18.

Third important principle is the power to remove members. This has really got the dander up of many members of college and university boards, and I can understand that. Mechanisms under

section 19 will be put into place to allow for the removal of an elected member from the board for reasons of his or her conduct or conflict of interest if a two-thirds majority of the board resolves to have the elected member removed.

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Now, elsewhere the legislation refers…. In

section 49 — if the board is satisfied that the person should be removed for cause. For cause — an important qualifier. What is cause? Well, I think common law and other regulations have unravelled the meaning of that word, and obviously this particular statute doesn't attempt to redefine what is well tested in law already.

But it isn't as though we don't like the colour of your hair or your s