Manitoba Hansard — 12 May 1994 (Sitting 26, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-26

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

- Fifth Sess ion • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published uruler the 11uthorlty of The Honourable Denis C. Roc11n Spellker Vol. XLm No. 26 • 1:30 p.m., Thursday, May 12, 1994 ISSN 0542-5492

NAME ASHI'ON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIFDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Tll11, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. Fn.. MON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoUtic:al Atftliation CONSTITUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil GllLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli HELWER, Edward R. HICKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LAnn.JN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, MaJCel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK, Nonna MceltAJE,James,Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St.

Johns Elmwood Morris BUITOW s Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage la Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kirkfield Puk Fli.nFlon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY. NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

- 1571 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursda y, May 12, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS RO�NE PROCEEDINGS TABUNG OF REPORTS Bon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege to table the Annual Report 1992:-93 for the Manitoba Crop Insurance COJporation. Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with the adm inistration of The Workers Compensation Act): Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure for me today to table the Annual Report 1993 of the Workers Compensation Board of Manitoba, as well as the 1994 Five Year Operating Plan of the Workers Compensation Board. Bon.

Donald Orchard (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board 42nd Annual Report for the year ended March 31 , 1993. Intr oduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us this afternoon from the Maple Leaf School seven ty-six Grade 5 students under the direction of Mrs. Strachan, Mrs. Fo rsyth and Mrs. Metcalfe. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mis. Mitchelson).

Also, from the Grant Park High School, we have ten Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Richard Dooley. This school is located in the con st ituency of the honourable member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Royal Bank Data Centre Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Sp eaker, I think all members of this Chamber appreciate the fact that Manitoba is very well placed in Canada and North America to attract data service jobs, high-tech jobs and telecomm unica tion jobs.

We have a skilled workforce, we have a tremendous location in terms of time zones and we have the capacity to be a centre of excellence. Mr. Speaker, Manitoba was competing with a number of other provinces dealing with a data centre for the Royal B ank, a national banking centre. Unfortunately, Ro yal Bank has announced that the 500 jobs and some $20 million of investment is going to go to the province of New Brunswick. I would like to ask the Premier: Why did the Royal Bank choose New Brunswick over Manitoba? Bon. Gary Fllinon (Premier): Mr.

Speake r, I welcome the member opposite's question and his interest in ensuring that Manitoba gets all of the job opportunities that it is capable of getting here, particularly in areas such as the telephone call centre and telecommunications operations of various large cotporations. I spoke yesterday, immediately after learning of the decision, to the chairman and CEO of the bank, Mr. Taylor, and asked him to provide us with information on the basis of their decision. Mr. Taylor did not give me any direct comparative data to be able to justify it.

He repeated many times about how Manitoba's prese ntati on wa s an excellent one and Manit oba is very highly competitive in this field, but he did not have any final information on which we could evaluate just where it was that Mani toba's proposal wa s lacking.

1572 LEGISLATIVE ASSBMBL Y OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 We are concerned of course that the decision may well have been made based on subsidies for jobs. I know that we have in recent times been succe ssful against competition with New Brunswick, for instance, in attracting the CP call centre, as well as the Unitel call centre. One that we did lose, which was the one that went to Purolator, was based on some very large input by the New Brunswick government, I believe close to $15,000 per job. The average we are told that New Brunswick puts out for jobs is some $10,000. That is not an area in which we like to deal. So we are trying to find more infounation about it •

(1335) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, in reviewing the material, I am aware that New Brunswick has bid quite extensively for jobs in the past, but in reviewing this proposal it app ears to us that there was no direct subsidy, although we cannot determine whether there was an indirect subsidy in that they have promised engineering and other technical assistance from the telephone company and the Province of New Brunswick. Mr. Speaker, were there comparable proposals?

Was Manitoba offering comparable support s through the Manitoba Telephone System or other agencies or expertise in our gov ernm ent to attract the Royal Bank that was deficient compared to the New Brunswick bid? I know the government is bidding for both telemarketing and data service jobs. It is very crucial to our future. Were there any comparable offers indirectly through telecommunication companies and other engineering expertise that was offered in New Brunsw ick that wa s not offered here in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Filmon: We are led to believe, Mr.

Speaker, that our proposal was at least comparable in all the areas that the bank was looking for. We are trying to find more information to try and find any substantive differences or the basis on which the final decision ntight have been tipped. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speak er, I wish the government well in this endeavour. Int erprovincial Trade Competition Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : We have been very concerned that bidding has gone on, and we certainly cannot see any direct subsidy in this proposal from what we have seen at this point On the larger issue, Mr.

Speaker, there are a number of other proposals before a number of other private companies dealing with a number of ot her provinces, and it appe ars to us that Saskatchewan bid for jobs with the Sears project, and that was the NDP, that Manitoba's bid was for jobs with the OWE plant, which we have been critical of, and New Brunswick is of course with the Purolator operation and has also bid quite extensively and expensively for jobs in this related industry.

Are the Trade ministers in Canada and the Trade minister of Manitoba and the F'II'st Ministers, as part of their dealings with so-called free trade wi thin this countr y, going to come to an agreement, an agreement across Canada, that taxpayers' money will not be used to bid one province against another, so that we can have a level playing field based on our expertise, on our great location, on our skilled workforce and other competitive factors in our economy, rather than on subsidies, both either direct or indirect to private companies? Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): As the member knows, our gove rnment bas been very, very strongly working towards the remo val of interp rovincial trade barriers. Back about four years ago, we put on the table an issue which we added to the issues that are involved in interprovincial trade barrier removal, and that is what we call destructive competition for investment. We call destructive competition for investment utilizing taxpayers' dollars to create an unlevel playing field.

We are very much attempting to ensure that that becomes part of future agreements in Canada towards removal of interprovincial trade barriers, that we also have in it a restriction of utilizing taxpayers' dollars to create an unlevel playing field -

- May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1573 in an effort to attract investment and jobs in the province. We are veey much in agree ment with the Leader of the Opp osition that there should be a code of practice that is developed and that is what we are worldng towards now. •

(1340) Youth Court Backlogs Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, I have a new question. A citizen phoned us today and we have been getting a number of calls from the public about the whole issue of court delays. This is an issue that we have raised in this Chamber before, particularly in the youth court and in courts dealing with sexual abuse and child abuse. I want to ask specifically about young people. We have repeatedly asked the Minister of Justice about the issue of backlogs in the court. Our Justice critic has raised this day after day. Today, on an ope n-line show, Mr.

Speaker, the qu estion was put to the Child Advocate of Manitoba about the issue of juvenile offenders and the delay in the court backlog: What about the court backlog? The Qlild Advocate says, I do not believe the court system is worldng. I think part of the problem is there is not any justice for children offenders under the Young Offenders Act It is not swift for one thing. Children are waiting six months, up to a year.

They are being delayed, constant delay in sentencing children and the Child Advocate of Manitoba goes on to say, I think this really does little to impress children, that he has to wait for something so long in terms of something in the wrong that is not legal. They are remanded and remanded. I would ask the Premier (Mr.

Film on), in light of the fact that his Minister of Justice has repea tedly said there are no problems in this backlog, whom are we to believe, the Minister of Justice who says there are no prob lems in backlogs in the youth system or the Child Advocate who is saying clearly today, there are major problems in the Young Offenders Act here in Manitoba? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr.

Speaker, I am veey interested that the Leader of the New Dem ocratic Party raises the issue of prob lems with the Young Offenders Act, because his party does not seem to think that there is any problem with the Young Offenders Act In fact, they have never once put their position forward. They have never once offered support to this governme nt. We have recognized difficulties with the Young Offe nders Act. I have taken that position to Ottawa It is the strongest position across Canada.

The New Democ ratic Party refe rs to the Young Offenders Act, but they do not have the courage to put their position on the table. Mr. Doer: Well, no wonder people in this province are saying they cannot get any justice from the Minister of Justice in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Spea ker, the minister did not answer the ques tion. She did not answer the question two weeks ago. She did not answer the question three weeks ago. She could not answer the question four weeks ago. I would like to put it to the Premier, who presumably the Minister of Justice answers to.

Whom should we believe, the independent Child Advocate who is saying there are ma jor problems with the delay in the youth court of Manitoba, or the Minister of Justice who tells us that eveeyt hing is okay and we should not worey about it at all in the province of Manitoba? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Spe aker, again, the Leader of the New De mocratic Pa rty referred quite specifically to the Young Offenders Act. I want to make a point of saying that we look forward to their position being declared. We still have not heard it. However, in the matter of the youth court, Mr.

Speaker, again, I have to say that the critic and now his Leader continually cast negative state ments. They should know that we have managed to bring down any backlog in the youth court. We are booking for cases where young peo ple are in custody into June-that is next month-and that there is booking now reduced from seven months down to five months for those in noncustody.

1574 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 Perhaps the Lea der of the New Democratic PartY does not understand the due process of law, the requirements to take a case before the courts, the requirements for pre-sentence reports and, in some cases, psychiatric assessments. There is a due process of law. The people of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, want to make sure that we are working diligently where there is a backlog, that the due process of law is being handled, that there is an ef fec tive management of the case . •

(1345) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, of course the minister knows full well that the five-month statistic that she is quoting is from when a court date is set, not from the time in which a charge is laid in the province of Manitoba. That is why we have so many other people except the Minister of Justice saying there is a major pr oblem in the backlog of the youth court. Justice delayed for young people is justice denied. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon): Why does he not take some of the money, the $500,000 they are sp ending on promoting themselves in lottery ads, and take some of that money and put it to young offenders in the young offenders court so that we can deal with the backlog in this province and deal with youth offenders in a timely way, rather than delays that we see now in the young offenders court? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, again, I will remind the Leader of the New Democratic Party about the due process of law, about the requirement of the three-th at there needs to be also the presentation by the Crown, there needs to be work by judges, there also needs to be work by the defence bar or people who are acting on behalf of the person who is accused. Let me give every assurance now that we are working diligently with the chief judge of Manitoba and with the justices of the Court of Queen's Bench, as well, that we will deal with any issues of court backlog.

We are working with that, through that, very carefully and very diligently. The people of Manitoba are concerned that cases are handled eff ectively, that there is a proper handling of the case that respects the due process of law, and that the guilty are punished, Mr. Spe aker, and that where the member has any question about the laws which then cover those courts, he should make himself clear, particular ly in the area of the Young Offenders Act. Lord Selkirk School Division Funding Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Oppositi on) : Mr. Speaker, my question, in fact, is for the Minister of Education.

He is not getting many chances these days and I want to help him out I know he is eager. An Honourable Member: He is already up. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I know the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchanl) is a little pent up these days, too, so I will try-they should let him out more often. Ironically, Mr. Speaker, we have learned that last week the Lord Selkirk School Division sent out 55 layoff notices. That was as a direct result of a $2.6 million cut to their funding and represents approximately 10 percent of their workforce, including 25 teachers and 22.5 support staff .

Now, that $2.6 mill ion cut ironically is awfully close to the $2.5 million that the government is prepared to put at risk for Mr. Blue Taylor. My question to the Minister of Education: Why do they not just take the money and use it to keep the people who are there, who are working, who have been doing their jobs and educating children? Why do they not just keep that money and those jobs in that community right now, jobs we know are already there? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Liberal Party draws a long bow as between Blue Taylor and the Lord Se lkirk School Division. TI:ris is an issue that was raised by a member of the NDP sever al weeks ago, dealing with public school funding. Again, I point out for the member, if be wants to try and leave the impress ion that money bas flowed by way of economic development supp ort to a company, it has not. He is well aware of that.

- - May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1575 But, Mr. Speaker, the issue is funding overall . The Lord Selkirk SChool Division has in the past done reasonably well under the existing formula that is in place. This year, though, it has fe lt some pain with respect to the impact of reassessm ent and how that flows through the funding model. Mr. Speaker, we are well aware of some of the decisions that that school division has made; indeed, they are not a lot different from many the other school divisions have had to wrestle with over the course of the last two or three yeaiS.

I have had representation from members of the community and indeed from the board, and I am hoping of course that next year will be providing a result that is more acceptable to that division. •

(1350) Mr. Edwards: Well, Mr. Speaker, 55 people are outofwork. My question further for the minister: Not even the proponents agree that there is any chance of getting the 600-- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, my question for the Minister of Education: Part of the agreement with Mr. Taylor is that that company will put back $2 million eveomally into the education system in that lo cal area. We are giving that compa ny, encumbering through loan and prepared to put at risk, $2.5 million. It is a paper shuffle.

My question for the minister: Instead of cutting these jobs now in education in Selkirk, why does this government not just leave that money there and tell Mr. Taylor that it will be used to train those worker s if they ev er ma ter ia lize in that community? Why are we doing this shuffle via Mr. Taylor and not just leavi ng the money in the community now with people who are working, te aching children right now in Selkirk? Mr. Maoness: Mr. Speaker, I know the member could care less about the creation of wealth, of course, from which the support comes for all of our social services.

It starts somewhere and it starts of course-I am talking about the money that is directed into education to help starts with the creation of wealth. So

whereas the Liberal Party does not seem to understand that or care less, our party does. To the extent that this proponent can live up to all of the conditions agreed to, then maybe there may be a loan. But the member tries to make it state that indeed it is a transfer of money. If he knew anything about the accounting in this province, it does not worlc that way. We set up an allowance. If the money is lent out, we set up an allowance which is far short of the two-point-some million dol lars in this case .

The member does not understand accounting, the member does not understand the books of this province and the member does not understand finance and business generally . Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, this from a minister who brought in six deficit budgets, promising a balanced budget every time-19 years in a row. Now, Mr. Spea ker, until this gove rnment realizes that education is the key to the creation of wealth, we will be on the same road we have been on. Education is the key to wealth in this province . Until they realize that, they are going to be lost in the wilde rness .

My final question for this minister: Tonight in Lockport those teachers are meeting to discuss these cuts. They are meeting to discuss the impact on education in their communities. Will the minister or his representative or someone else be attending to listen to the people in those communities who are doing the teaching and understand the effect this is going to have on their cbildreo and the effect this is going to have on their fumres, including their economic fumres? Mr. Maoness: Mr.

Speaker, yes, I did bring down six budgets and there were six deficits, and the members opposite voted against every one of them because the deficits were not high enough. They wanted more taxes. They voted against every one of them. From where are these members coming? They make no sense. There is no logic behind their questions. These people are at sea. [interjection] I have to indicate that I think we are going to have to put a committee together afterwa rds to decide how

1576 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 we spell that word to help Hansard out That is a new one to me. The knowledge of the meet ing being held tonight was presented by the Leader of the Liberal Party. I met with a number of associations and school divisions over the course of the last number of months, trying to go through the basic rationale used with respect to some of the funding decisions that have been made, but throughout it all many divisions have been impacted through reassessment.

The policy which was sup ported by the Liberals when this government brought it in was widely supported, totally supp orted, by all the members of this House because they saw the rationale that you should tax wealth. But wealth moves from location to location over a period of time. That has impact, obviously, on certain school divisions. •

(1355) Youth Crime Prevention Programs Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker, after a summit on youth gangs and youth crime held by this go vernment five mo nths ago, involving 500 people and 700 recommendations produced, and after a nine-point plan being announced by this Minister of Justice three months ago, I understand that the minister will shortly be anno uncing a phone line on gangs. I am sure Manitobans will rest safely tonight. I ask the Minister of Justice, what meaningful action has she taken to rid Winnipeg of illegal gang activity? Bon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Again, we certainly would look for the support of members opposite as we deal with the very serious issues of youth gang and youth crime and violence in Manitoba. We did take very seriously the issues raised by Manitobans at the summit, and we welcomed the participation of Manitobans at that summit and took their views very seriously.

As a result of their participation, yes, we did announce that we would be putting in place a youth gang line which would be useful for young people who are involved in gang activity and who wanted to find some ways- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mrs. Vodrey: The members opposite, Mr. Speaker, do not think that this is a serious problem . They do not think it is a serious problem because they continue to avoid listening to the answers. Mr. Mackintosh : I ask the minis ter to indeed take Manitobans ser iously and the summit recommendations seriously. Where is the phone line? Mrs.

Vodrey: I think it is very important that all the members of this House take very seriously the issues of youth crime and violence. That is why I ask those members of both the Liberal Party and the NDP to make it clear where they stand on the Young Offenders Act. Where do they stand on the fram ewor k that deals with youth crime and violence? In terms of the youth gang line, yes, I do intend to make an announcement very shortly on the operationalization of the youth gang line . I also look fo rward to making other announceme nts. We are moving very, very quickly in the area of youth crime and violence .

We have also made ourselves clear. We are moving to rigorous confinement in our institutions, moving towards the youth gang line, and we have made ourselves clear on the Young Offenders Act. I have received now over 8,000 petitions to strengthen the Young Offenders Act. I have beard nothing from members opp osite . Surveillance Strategy Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns) : As part of the nine-point plan, the minister also announced increased police surve illance of gang members. My question to the minister is: What new survei llance strategies are now in place?

Can she explain to me why the Winni peg Police advise me they have not re ceived a single cent from this government for that pro ject? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : The member would like to have me reveal in this House today exactly what -

- May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1577 the surveillance methods are. Would that not be helpful to all the gang members and youth crime in Manitob a, that the member would have me reveal it today in this House? What a fool ish question that fo llows on a whole range of other fo olish questions raised by that member. Mr. Speaker, let me just mention the youth gang line again which the member seems to think is of no use. The concept originated in NDP British Columbia. Workforce 2000 Northern Blower Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training) : Mr.

Speaker, I took a question yesterday from the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) as notice . It was to do with Northern Blo wer Inc. The member asked a series of questions. I would like to inform the members of the House the training plans approved for Northern Blower co ntribute to the skill development of 50 Manitobans employed by this firm. The curriculum requested by the member for Wolseley is not available. A training plan is on file, but, again, that too is confid ential information at this time.

I wish to clarify for the House that approved training costs are those upon which a company 's payroll tax refund will be calculated, not the actual tax refund itself. Final ly, it is our view that the provincial support represents only about 15 percent of the company 's total training costs . •

(1400) Victims Assistance Fund Status Report Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellingt on) : Mr. Speaker, since 1991-92 the government has decreased grants from the Victims Assistance Fund by 41 percent. Last year the government changed legislation to allow these funds to be diverted to general Justice dep artmental programming rather than used for communit y-based services , pro jects and research grants as was the intention of the original legislation.

The last annual report from the Victims Assistance Fund is from 1991-92, even though legislation requires that it be tabled in the House within 15 days of the sitting of the Legislature. I would like to ask the Minister of Justice how much is currently in the Victims Assistance Fund, what services or programs were funded in 1992-93 or is this also- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Bon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : During the Estimates of the Department of Justice, we will be able to cover in detail what is available within the Victims Assistance Fund. I can tell the member that we certainly see the whole Victims Assistance line of the budget to be a very important one. I can tell the member, and in Estimates I will be able to elaborate , that over 55,0 00 Manitobans have been assisted by the services provided through that Victims Assistance line. I do expect to be able to table the ann ual report very shortly in this House . Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, given that the minister, in a March 11 meeting with the Wmnipeg service providers group, stated that she did not know the status of the Victims Assistance Fund, does she now know what is happening with the external agencies ' grants requests ? Some of those agencies have waited over two years to hear about their request fo rms. When will these agencie s fin ally hear about their reques ts? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Spe aker, I am pleased the member makes my point that I do meet very carefully and as often as requested with groups across this province who ask for inf ormation and who want the opp ortunity to make sure that I understand their issues. As the member know s, March 11 was be fore the budget There fore, I was not able to reveal at that time exactly what was in the Victims Assist ance line. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, what guarantee do the victims of crimes in the province of Manitoba and the external agencies that historically have

1578 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 provided services to those victims have that the Victims Assistance Fund actually will provide services and programming to victims and to external agencies, rather than being used as a legislative change last year allowed for internal Justice departm ent programming such as the deputy minis ter's salary? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, again I will not even comment on the accusation that the member has made regarding something which she assumes and accuses occurred. We are able to speak in Estimates.

However, I can tell her, and she will see in the budget, that there most certainly is a line for Victims . Assistan ce. I can tell her that Victims Assistance does assist certain progr amming, programming such as Women's Advocacy, and the member will know that in terms of Women 's Advocacy we have expanded that to Brandon, Thompson and The Pas which is an increase in service. I will remind her that from the programs within the Department of Justice over 55, 000 Manitobans have been assisted as well as those assisted by outside agencies . Abitibi-Price-Pine Falls Environmental Licensing Mr.

Eric Robinson (Rupertsl and) : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister resp onsible for Native Affairs. As the minister knows, the fe deral government granted a two-year extension to the environm ental licence fo r the Pine Falls mill As well, the minister may know that the mill wo rkers of the Abitibi-Price mill will be voting on a deal in six days from now, May 18.

Given that the meeting of the engineers and company officials with the band to review the environmental licence proposed changes takes place on the 16th of this month, I believe, is the minister prepared to ask that the deadline be extended so that no wolkers and the First Nations community of Sagkeeng will have an opportunity to review the afreement? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minist er responsible for Native Affairs): Mr. Spea ker, I can tell the honourable member that I had a meeting with the council and acting chie f of the Sagkeeng First Nation.

I believe it was on Saturday, March 19, in which we discussed a number of issues. That was not one that they particularly requested. That is a matter that the federal Minister of En vironment will have to determine in his process to ensure that there is an adequate opportunity for all involved to participate. Mr. Robinson: The First Nation of Sagkeeng has waited over 60 years for this plan to be improved. Surely the proponents can wait a few days for the band to review the plans. My question is for the Minister responsible for Native Affairs.

Is he prepared to support a short delay to give the First Nation community time to review the improvements? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, certainly one appreciates the interest of all people who live down river of the Pine Falls Generating Station and the need to improve water quality. That is why, in fact, this administration has supported the mill buy out with a $30-milli on note. I know the Liberal Party does not support that in princip le, those types of loans, but that is one of the reasons why we are there, to ensure there is a sufficient upgrade to improve the water quali ty.

At this particular time , I appreciate that the member is the local member for the Sagkeeng Frrst Nation. He raises this issue. It is one I would suggest that that representation be made to the fe deral Department of Environment and to the local member of Parliament who have some control. We, as a provi nce, have no control on that particular process . Mr. Robinson : Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the First Min ister (Mr.

Filmon), will the First Minister ovenule his minister and contact the First Nations community of Sag keeng and also Abitibi-Price to ensure and request an extension of the takeover deadl ine so that all the shareholders have equal treatment? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated to the member, I did have a meeting following the spill incident with the particular council , and that was not a particular issue that they raised with me. There is ample opportunity for the Sagkeeng First - '

- - May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1579 Nation to express that position to the fe deral minister. Their environmental licensing with the fed eral government is for them as proponents and those of the various communities to be involved in that process. It is not one in which I as local MLA or minister have been involved, nor do I think it app ropriate that they do. I would suggest that those comments be made to the fe deral Minister of Environment. Community Policing Govenunent Support Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples) : Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice.

We are all deep ly saddened by the tragedy that occurre d in the north end, where a 15-year-old was killed. I worked for two years as a community police officer in the housing complex where the tragic eve nt occurred. I know and consider many of the parents and children my friends. I also know that parents in this housing complex are now fe arful and extremely concerned about the safety of their families.

Will the minister, as the chief law enf orcement officer for the province, set up a meeting with the chief of police for the Oty of Winnipeg and take a lead role in the process of reorganization that is going on with the police service to ensure that community-based police are adequate and families in that community are protected? Bo n. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr.

Spea ker, let me begin by saying any remarlcs that I make are not to be considered in any way close to a case under investigation by the police, and that any remarlcs that I make should not in any way be attributed to the police investigation. My rem arks are to be considered in general only, and in terms of in general only, my remarks are that certainly we really are ve ry supp orti ve of police and communities working together, and communities being able to express to our police officers what their issues and what their priorities are .

Cer tainly , for the RCMP , we do have a mec hanism , that is a police force and a police service, and which I deal with very directly. In terms of the Oty of Wmnipeg, I am always happy to work with the chief of police and also with the city councill ors, who directly employ the Oty of Winnipe g Police, to look at working with neighbo urhoods, working with Manitobans to make it the most efficient and helpful for them. •

(1410) Mr. Kowalski: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary ques tion to the Mini ster of Justice: Because I worked as a community officer in the north end, I am well aware of the unfortunate fact that the number of community-based police was reduced due to a lack of reso urces . I ask the minister, is she prepared to confirm her government 's supp ort for communit y-based policing by backing up those words with adequate res ources from the province? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, as the member knows, the province provides a block grant to the Oty of Winnipeg and that grant is then determined by them how they will use that grant and, based on their own system, how they wish to have their police service operate. So I think that be also needs to look at working with the city councillor and with the Oty of Winnipeg so that be can also make his points to the Oty of Winnipeg about bow that grant is utilized. Mr.

Kowalski: Will the Justice minister do as her predecessor did with a very successful ALERT program, where the province did put in resources to aid the Winnipeg police force in its pro gram, do the similar thing targeting youth crime and gangs and put in the res ources to aid the police to do the job they would like to do? Mrs. V odrey: Mr. Speaker, of course the work of policing is very important.

I meet regularly, and am always careful to make sure that the needs of police and the need s of ci tize ns are being considered, but as we deal with the issues of youth crime and violence that the member has raised, I ask him again, where do you stand on the law that covers the Young Offenders Act? -because he has never once made himself clear.

1580 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, Beauchesne's is very clear. Otation 41 7: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." This minister has repeatedly abused Question Period, Mr. Speaker, by trying to engage in debate. We are prepared as opposition members to debate this minister any time, any place, on her record- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member did not have a point of order.

The honourable minister had just finished responding to the question. Lockport, Manitoba Tourism Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, given the confusion and opp os ition of the Liberal Leader to jobs coming to Selkiik, I will table a letter sent to me by the ma yor of Selk irk supporting and end orsing the SHI proj ect . [interjection] Shameful, exactly. My questions are to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

As the minister will recall, last year, due to the bungled closure of the Lockport bridge, Lockport tourism and business were substantiall y down, in some cases as much as 60 percent for some businesses. Given the problems of tourism in that particular area, would the minister be prepared to review the matched funding arrangements for Lockport business? Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism) : Mr.

Spe aker, this government has been working extremely hard, as it relates to the development of the tourism industry and the advertising promotion that we carry on with as well, to attract jobs to the province of Ma nitoba so that it can in fact increase the economy to increase the support for the social safety nets that we all expect. I will look into the issue which the member has raised without making a commitment at this time but will look into the proposition which he has laid before us. Mr. Dewar: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister agree to meet with the Lockport marketing COtpOration in the very near future so that tourism promotion of Lockport, Lower Fort Garry and Selkiik can be assisted as soon as possible? Mr. Downey : Mr. Speaker, I indicated that what I was prepared to do was to take a look at the issue which the member has laid before us without making any commitment until after that time. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Que st ion s has expired. NONPO�CA L STATEMENTS Manitoba Day Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable First Minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Bon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I invite all members of the House to join with me today in celebrating Manitoba's 124th birthday. The Province of Manitoba was created on May 12, 1870, when Royal Assent was given to the Manitoba Act, and the actual proclamation was made on July 15 of the same year. The passage of that act recogni zed the important role of the western prairies in building Canada. From that moment, Manitoba has been a partner in the creation of one of the largest and greatest nations in the world.

In 1970 , Manit ob a's centennial year, this Legis la ture offici ally designated May 12 as Manitoba Day. It is a time to reflect on who we are, where we have come from, what we have achieved and perhaps, most importantly, how we wish to shape the future of Manitoba. We are a rich and diverse multicultural society with many cultur es, heritages, languages and customs , but we are all proud to be Manitobans . The sense of pride is fo unded on an understanding of our past and optimism for our future.

Our history has been an exciting tale of discovery and adventure, of growth and prosperi ty, of endurance and perseverance, of people and events. All these factors have contributed to the

- May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1581 continuing saga of Manitoba's development and evolution. By commemorating our past, we can look forward to the future with exc itement. The ann ouncement made earlier today epitomizes this feeling. By replacing the existing monument of our founding father Louis Riel with a new statue, we are not only recognizing our diverse heritage but, most importantly, we are celeb rating our future. We are also recognizing the 175th anniversary of the oldest education institution in western Canada by giving the existing monument to the Coll�ge de Saint Boniface.

Manitoba's future is one of unlimited potential. We are building on our st rengths in multiculturalism, natural resou rces and human skills to create a role for Manitoba. in the global marketplace of the 21st Century. The world of tomorrow will belong to those who understand themselves and their potential. For Manitobans, Manitoba Day is an appropriate time to look back with pride and renew our commitment to our dreams and aspirations for the years to come. I ask all membeiS of this House to join with me in recognizing and celebrating May 12 as Manitoba Day in our great province. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for W olseley have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolsele y): I am pleased to be able to respond today on behalf of the opposition to the message of Manitoba Day. This is the one day of the year that Manitobans have chosen, at least in the last decade, to celebrate their sense of a provincial community and their shared past. This year, in particular, we celebrate two anniveiSaries, the be ginning of our 125th year of the creation of the province and 1919, the 75th anniversary of the General Strike in Winnipeg.

The juxtaposition of these two commemorations demonstrates that history and heritage has many voices. The decision, the choice of celebrating the 125th anniversary this coming year, reflects the official voice of the past. It argues that the important milestone s in Manitoba's past have been those of legislation and incorporation into the growing Canadian nation. It is the voice of the dominant majority culture which sees our past as the story of the spread of a particular world view that they have chosen to call civilization.

It gains its strength and charts its successes in the material growth of agriculture, indu stry and the building of towns and vill ages, and it reaches its current articulation in the pre sentation of Manitoba as an industrious multicultural and tolerant society. This is the story we teach in school. It is the story given to those who tour the Legislature. It is the story recorded in the majority of the monuments of our province, and it is the story written and recorded as one of victory.

But there are other voi ces, other histories and other wa ys of commemorating our common experience in this land, and there is a people's history to be told on Manitoba Day. It is the story of those who wish to reclaim the memories that go unrecorded by the dominant culture. In Manitoba, this means teaching our children that the 16th, 17th and 18th Centuries of our province were not primarily the story of fur trade empire and exploration, but of a widespread and changing aboriginal world at whose margins these few newcomeiS from Scotland and France plied their trade.

It is a story which sees the 1870s not as the triumph of the new Canadian nation, but as the disposs ess ion of Manitoba's Metis . The pride in the growth of Winnipeg as a com merci al cen tre must be tempered by a recognition of the implications of a General Strike of 1919 which sought to limit the power capital and which led over the next generation to create a consensus for the creation of our social democratic state.

The people's story is a story of work, of labour, whether on the trap line, on the railway, in the hospitals or in the 40 percent of the GDP which has been unrecorded and unpaid and perfonned largely by women in the household. On this Manitoba Day, in the official opposition we are proud to remember the part played in our shared past by hunt ers, fishermen, farmers, domestic workers, industrial labo urers, public servants, teachers, nurses, parents, husbands,

1582 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 wives and children whose voices collectively, in Cree· or Cambodian, are those of Manitoba. •

(1420) Mr. Speaker: Does the bonomable Leader of the second opposition party have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to join with the honourable Premier as well as the member'for Wolseley, speaking on behalf of the oppo sition party, on behalf of the Liberal Party, the second opp osition party, in commemorating and acknowledging the 124tb anniversary of the Province of Manitoba.

I join comm ents with the member for Wolseley in recognizing that, of course, the history of this province and this land and its people began many centuries before May 12, 1870, when we officially joined Canada in a forum as the province of Manitoba. I think it is important on this date to remember that tradition and those people and the many centu ries that they were on this land long before certainly my family, my forefathers and that of the dominant culture today arrived here.

I want to also recognize that it was those people who we lcomed the rest of the people in this province who came here, showed them bow to live in a very hostile, very difficult environment, taught them the ways of their culture and their people and so a culture evolved. Mr. Speaker, as we go down the road together with the First Nations and the non-First Nations communities in this province I think it is important to remember today, perhaps more than any other time, that we may not be exactly on the same road, but we must strive to be travelling in the same direction.

I think today is an important day as we see many changes with the First Nation s community to remember our obligation to them and to remember that we must live together in peace and in a tolerant society as we both try to progress for ourselves, our families and our community. The people who came to this province came seeking peace and freedom, and they have bad that with some exceptions. They have had that and built a tolerant soc iety which has provided opportunity for their children over the decades. Mr.

Speaker, while I think that we live in a society in which we often see contlict-and this House . bears out that contlict as the diverse society tries to wo rk out common decisions and a common future-it is an important day to look around the world at all the nations that have struggled and are fighting and are involved in anned conflict trying to achieve what we have bad and what we have got Let us remember on this day that we have a very, very wonderful society here in this country that bas been built, and in this province, and we are the envy of the world.

I want to, of course, wish all Manitobans, all members of this House, congratulations on the anniversary of our province and its birthday. Thank you. Int erna tional CFIDSIME Awareness Day Mr. Speaker: The hon oura ble member for Radisson, do es she have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson) : Mr. Speaker, I am rising to commemorate this day, May 12, as a day to recogn ize chronic fatigue and immune dysfunction syndr ome and myalgic encephalo myelitis. It is a mouthful, and it is also causing a lot of problems throughout our province for a number of residents. Mr.

Spe ake r, the City of Win nipeg bas designated this the first day ever for Winnipeg to recognize this increasingly common illness, but there are a number of cities in Canada and the United States that have been recognizing this day for quite some time, and there is a march on Ottawa today. I was going to read the proclamation signed by the mayor of the City of Winni peg . WHEREA S the Ni ghtin gal e Re se arch Foundation Manitoba

Chapter was formed in 1993 to provide support, education and information about the nature and impact of myalgic encepbalo myelitis, chronic fatigue and immune dysfunction syndrome and related disorders; and -

- May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1583

WHEREAS the local

chapter of the national nonprofit Nightingaie Research Foundation holds monthly meetings for self -help and the exchange of inf onnation; and

WHEREAS the fo undation has chosen May 12, 1994, as a special day devoted to increasing public knowledge , aw are ness and understanding of ME and CFIDS in the hope of obtaining more funding, research and trea bll ent for this disease. It is then sig ned by Mayor Thompson proclaiming this day International CFIDS/ME Awareness Day. Mr. Speaker, I just want to say as well, that the World Health Organization has also recognized this illness and this day at the international level, but there are many areas throughout our country , and in deed in Manitoba, that are not recognizing this illness .

I have had the chance to work with three members of my constituency who are stricken with this illness and I just found today , with the

article in the paper, that there is a third boy who also lives in my constituency who is ill with this illnes s. The symptoms are varied. They seriously affect the ability for people to earn a livelihood. They provide incredible stress on families, and there is an incredible stigma attached with this illn ess, partially because it is not recognized. In conclusion, I wo uld just like to giv e recog nition to the Nightingale Rese arch Foundation Manitoba

Chapter for all the hard work that they have done. I wish them continued success. Thank you. National Nurses Day Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Crescentwood have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwo od): Mr. Speaker, it is quite appropriate , I bel ieve, that on May 12, as we celebrate the birth of our province , that we also celebrate a group of what used to be mo stly women, who are now men and women, who hav e helped to build this province . This group of prof essionals are nurses. It is National Nurses Week, and today is National Nurses Day.

Certainly , all of us in our lives know of n urses , whether we have bad an opportunity to have them take care of us, whether we know them as frien ds, whether we know them as neighbours. Nurses are very much an intricate part of our lives and are . very important persons in Manitoba and certainly a cross this country of Canada and internationally as well. Many of us, of course , when we think of nurse s will rem ember Florence Nightingale who was certainly called the lady with the lamp. She was a British nurse who worked under appalling conditions during the Crimean War.

She later went on to fo und the Nighting ale School at St. Thom as' Hospital in London. She had an interesting quote in one of her writings on notes on nursing. In those days, Mr. Speaker, of course all nurses were ladies of the lamp. There were no men. She said that no man, not even a doctor, ever gives any other definition of what a nurse should be than this--d evoted and obedient. This definition would do just as well for a courtier. It might even do for a horse. It would not do for a policeman. So, Mr.

Speaker, Florence Nightingale in those days was sa ying that nurses are more than individuals who are obedient and devoted. Certainly , this is a profession and it certainly has grown into a profession where I would say the key word is service to the pe ople . Nurses are there to serve the people whom they work for whether they are public health nurses out in rural and northern communiti es, whether the y are nurses who work in intensive care in some of our larger institutions, whether they are practical nurses who work in our personal care homes. Certainly , nurses are very much an intricate part of our society.

Nurses are also very much important in Third World countries and on the international scene where many of our nurses take on the idea of . service and go to Third World countries to see if they can provide a better quality of life to the citizens in those countri es.

1584 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 I am sure that all members of the Legislature today will join me in recognizing the valuable contri butions over the centmies of the prof ession of nursing. We wish them well as a prof ess ion, and we certainly are very much pleased that they are there, that they will continue to grow. We wish them well , and we hope, in fact, that we can give them the same respect and offer them as legislators what they have given to us as a comm uni ty. Thank you. •

(1430) ORDERS OF THE DAY Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Ind ustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Dow ney), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendea

u) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of HealdL COMMITrEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Ch airperson (Marcel Laurendeau) : This afternoon the

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will continue consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last sat, it bad considered item 2.(bX1) on page 38 of the Estimates book. 2.{

b) Education Ref orm

(1) Sala ries and Employee Benefits $505,400. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin) : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I just bad a couple of cleanup ques tions her e on some issues that were outstanding. 1be other evening the minister said that be would be glad to attempt an answer regarding which private schools were allowed to an exemption on the compulsory teaching of the independent living skills course that bas been made compulsory for the vast ma jority of sc hoo ls in the provi nce. He said when be got to the School Programs area, be would attempt to answ er that. I wonder if be would want to do that now . Bon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have to correct the record. I started to make reference that I thought that some schools were giving flexibility in that they did not have to off er it this year but had to offer it by 1996. Specific to the question, the one independent school that is not offering it in '93-94, the present ye ar that we are in, is St. John 's-Ravenscourt. Mr. Plohman: The minister had mentioned that Glenlawn had, without permissi on, not offered it for , I believe , this curre nt year as a public school. That is what the minister bad said.

Now be is saying that there is only one independent school that has been allowed to vary, with permissi on. Is that correct? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I did not say Glenlawn Collegiate had not offered it. What I said was, they had not offered it as its own course. They bad integrated it, without permission I gather, but they bad integrated it into other curricula. Mr. Plohman: What the minister said, and I quote : I would have to think it would all have to be taught. One example for sure in the public school system-and Glenlawn Collegiate did it, but they did it without permission.

Per mission bas to be granted for it to occur anywhere, independent or public school syst em. So nowhere did the minister say the other day that they bad integrated it. He just said they did not, be talked in a generic sense about them not getting permission, and I think be bas clarified today that they did not get permission to integrate it into other subjects. For this year, are we talking about continuously , or is this just for a on e-year period? Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I think I also made a reference to another point to Glenlawn where I may have been more expans ive , I do not know.

By the time we found out what bad -

- May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1585 happe ned in that situation, we were well into the school year, at least it was too late to change . Yet the department and myself were certainly not willing to grant a blanket exemption across all divisions, given that there has been work over several years and a lot of p ressure with respect to this particular issue . Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, just to clarify then, is Glenlawn Collegiate asking for penn ission to integrate this into otller courses for the '94-95 year, and have any other schools in the public school system or any school divisions asked for the same pennissi on7 Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chaiipe rson, it is my understanding that fo nnally Glenlawn bas not filed a request for '94-95, but three high schools within the River Bast School Division have put forward proposals for '94-95 that would be similar to what existed at Glenlawn in '93-94. Mr.

Plohman: And the minister is saying, that is it as far as be knows in the whole province of Mani toba as far as the public school system . Mr. Mann ess: As far as we know , Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, but, as I think I have alluded to previously, sometimes the department is the last to know through no fault of their own. An awful lot of bureaucracy all the way through the system , and some school divisions interpret guidelines in a certain way and move accordingly. I imagine this bas happe ned before in other areas of new subject matter and probably will happen again. Mr.

Plohman: Can the minister indicate whether any decision has been made on these three for '94-957 Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it has not been brought to my attention in a fon nal matter. As a matter of fac t, some of this infonnation I present now is new to me, but beyond that I am also, of course, reminding myself that with the whole Ed Reform side I have to try and make decisions consistent also with what I sense might be the new approach through the broader context. There are other factors at play here. Mr.

Plohman: I thank the minister for that, and is he saying also that there is only one independent school that has asked for pennission, or is there none at the present time, for '94-95, with St. John 's-Ravenscourt being the one only for '93-947 •

(1440) Mr. Mann ess: Yes, Mr. Deputy Olairperson, that is the only school. We have been in contact with the Manitoba Federation of Independent Schools , and, I guess, indicated very strongly that we expect all of their community, all of their membership to implement according to the plan. They indicated that will happen across all of the membership. Mr. Plohman: Across all of their membership. All those schools that are members of the Manitoba Federation of Independent Schools . In add ition, I wanted to clean up one other area we had.

A number of questions have been asked about these specialists and consultan ts, but I was looking through-and I had received a call from MAPAL, the heritage language organizati on, the Manitoba Association for the Promotion of Ancestral Langua ges, who sa id that they understand that there have been some changes in the consul tants ' roles there.

I was looking through the document that bas been circulated, Program Dev elopmen t and Support Services Re organization to Be come School Programs Division, by the min ister's department, and under provincial specialists there is a Rupert Barensteiner listed as a Gennan consultant now. It seemed rather odd to have one person in charge of German and yet seemingly no one in charge of phys ed, which is something right across the province in every school. Then there is Tony Tavares, langu a ges, antiracist.

So I just wondered about the position here that there would be one person for one particular group, albeit one of the larger ones in the province, but certainly Ukrai nian-! do not know if I see a Ukrainian consultant here. Just what is happe ning here with regard to these consultants ? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, Rupert Ba re nsteiner is an intere sting per son. He is a citizen of Gennany and is here with the ple asure of the German government, which is paying his sal ary and accommo dations . We in the department, I guess, are providing some office and

1586 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 suppli es. This is not anything new. He has been here, I understand, for three or four years. I tell you who is making the greatest use of him and where he is finding his work most fascinating, because I have spoken with him: it is within the Hutterite colonies. There is some of the traditional, the very traditional, and German is still the language. As a matter of fact, he told me that the Gennan language around the world is almost the purest with the Hutterites in Manitoba. So anyway there is some very interesting background there.

He has been here three or four years. His salary is being picked up by the Gennan government. It is an outreach on their part to the Gennan-speaking people in our province, and whether or not there is any affinity between that fact and the Gennan base in Shilo, I do not know, but it is a fine gesture on the Gennan governm ent's part. Mr. Plohman: Okay, that explains why there is a separate Gennan consultant, but what about the other heritage languages. Where would we find them included? Mr. Manness : Under Tony Tavar es, who is responsible for language instruction, which includes heritage languages. Mr.

Plohman: That would include all heritage languages? There is no one else that is going to be doing some part of that Is that correct? Mr. Manness : That is right. Mr. Plohman: Just to follow on the questions that were asked last day. Looking at these charts, these organization charts, where would I find the phys ed consultant as a vacancy, or does it no longer exist in any of the charts? Regional teams or whatever, I have looked through, I cannot see a phys ed consultant there, and I do not see an industrial arts consultant either. Mr.

Mannes s: Basically, there has not been a position; I know the field's sense is that I have one and that I should be filling it. But that staf f position, basically, the focus of that has been changed over the course of the last year. I believe that half of that position has been directed into race relations-n o, the violence prevention consultant -and for the activities that used to be maintained in that staff position, we have now asked Joyce Martin, who is in the development unit She will continue to be the contact through this transition with respect to physical education matters . Mr.

Plohman: What is the rationale for having some of these consultants as provincial specialists in other sections of the department, rather than this one unit? You find these consultants throughout now, the regional teams in implementation and in program development. Mr. Manne ss: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it depends where you want to start on the pyramid. Where do you want to call at the top? We have decided now through the reorganization to call it program development. That takes priority over, therefore, the grouping of specialists in one area.

So if Program Development is the top, and then you were going to break it out into implementation and support services and you are going to do it on a regional context, that takes priority over the old re-organization. Now, if you want to give the grouping of specialists the priority, then it would have to be higher up on the pyramid. Mr. Plohman : But in some areas, you have your consultants in the specialists area, and in others, they are in the Program Development area.

Is that a reflection of where the work has to be done, in Program Development as opposed to where it is believed that we basically have a good program developed, and now it is a matter of continuing to work with schools and teachers in delivering it? Mr. Manness : Well, it is a reflection of a flatter organization, where you are going to have to have these specialists, obviously , in the reduced number of areas, and it is a recognition that in development and in implementation and in student support ser vices, you have to have specialists in all of these areas. Mr.

Plohman: I am just wondering if we do indeed have specialists in all those areas. When we look through here, we just do not see some of those titles. That is what I mean. For example, the Voca tional Education and Appre nticeship, Marshall Draper, is that also now including industrial arts , or is there a separate industrial arts position yet to be filled? -

- - May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1587 Mr. Mann ess: Certainly, that is a fourth area, Vocational Ed and Apprenticeship Training. That is an important area, and there will be obviously specialists that will be located there, but generally, I guess the term "specialists ," I do not know whether it is a generic term or whether or not within education it has specific meaning, to my way of looking at the world, there are reasons for having specialists across the horizontal plain of focus. Mr. Plohman: The minister missed my question.

I asked him if industrial arts was included in Vocational Ed under the same specialist or same consultant Obviously, it is a different philosophy , a different type of education and yet was done separately previously with Gene Happychuk, I understand, the industrial arts consultant. That name no longer appe ars, nor does that position appear, and I just asked the minister if that responsibility has been rolled in with Vocational and Apprenticeship . •

(1450) Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will try and do a better job of answering. Vocational Education and Apprenticeship is now part of, falls within the provincial specialists area, and Mr. Draper is listed under that tide. Mr. Plohman: The minister did not do a better job of answ ering. I have that here. I know he is under the provincial. I asked about industrial arts. I do not know if the minister is aware that he has had separate consultants there. Industrial arts is quite diff erent than Vocational Education. Industrial arts is a general education available to all studen ts.

They do not have to specialize in the same way that vo cational education has traditionally been. Indust rial arts is a general nature and is an education, a field of study, for students who are enrolled in academic or any of the other streams in high schools. They can take this as an option. Mr. Mann ess: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, it is all included within that single line, but I guess the import of that is, as the recognition is we move to ed refonn, this will become more public over the while that we are going to want to focus more on, particula rly in the latter senior years, more on app renticeship and vocational education as per the old industrial arts connotation. (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Deputy Chailperson, in the Chair) Mr. Plohman: That can be somewhat alarming, I think. If the minister-he talked about high school particular ly, so I will accept that.

What about. junior high industrial arts, which is a major part of exposing younger people to all forms of technical and industrial education at an earlier age, so that they can use that knowledge to detennine perhaps where they would like to go on further and specialize in those areas . It serves a very valuable role in introducing all of these areas, whether it be in home economics or industrial arts, the broad range of industrial arts fields of study, and emerging ones, like computers and so on. Is the minister sa ying that that is something he is considering eliminating from the junior high curriculum?

If he is not, where are they going to get their support, if they indeed need support? Or does the minister feel they do not? Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, no, the introducto:ry aspects are certainly valuable and necessary, but I think we will want to rethink how it is we do that I am not saying that anything will change, but a lot of the introductions that I see, as I travel throughout the land , are concerning me a little bit I do not see where, in all cases, a full effort is being put in by some of our students to leam what is available.

There is certainly a role for it-a significant role, a very important role-but I want to make sure that it is meaningful to the students as it is to the member for Dauphin and what I would like to see it be. Mr. Plohman: I think, though, that if the minister is already eliminating-and maybe he will say, this is a question of pr iorities-but I think we have to admit-and he said that technical education, in this case, industrial arts as a preparatory kind of study to vocational and appre nticeship training and so on is important, is a priority actually.

It is an area that we have to address in the future, more than we have in the past Then is it not putting the cart before the horse in tenns of removing the supports here and sayin g: Well, I have already

1588 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 made a judgment that maybe it is going to have to play a lesser role when, in fact, the minister is not convinced of that yet? He is con vinced that there maybe needs to be some change , but is that a reason why the industrial arts consultant should have been removed? I am just looking at it in terms of priorities here . Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we should not read into the fact that that consultant being no longer here says that the department places any lower priority on it.

These are decisions to be made, although I can tell you, this is a very important area. Introduction has to happen at this age , but I think that, when we are looking at the whole program of instruction within our high schools, we should do an evaluation to determine the effectiveness of the industrial arts program as we have known it now basic ally for 20 years. It is time. Mr. Plohman: You said high schools . Mr. Manness: I meant junior high-I am sorry; for the record, I meant junior high. It is time to do that evaluation.

Although we have not started on it, I see the importance of introducing our junior high, middle, whatever we want to call it, the middle -year students, to the concept of something other than academic study for the sake of academic knowle dge . We have got to evaluate how we have done it over the last 20 years and whether or not those changes should be considered. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would suggest the minister has taken a rather · peculiar way to go about it by sending the message that he is going to evaluate and, in so doing, eliminate the person that would be most involved in that proces s-the position at least, whether be is satisf ied with the person or not, I am not commenting on that. He may have been a very good person. However, I think the minister is not sending out very cle ar signals on this, and I wonder how he intends to communicate this matter to the ed uc ation community. He certai nly has not communicated it anywhere that I know of at this point.

Mr. MaDness: Certainly that has to be an aspect of the communication that is out in the field now. I mean, we just started into the reorganization big time not quite a month ago. I would think that, as our staff are out there telling all as to the change s, organizationally, this question will be asked, and a clear response will be presented. Failing that, I am hoping my comments on the record today are clear. Mr.

Plohman: For the minister, I think this staff will have a very great diff iculty convincing education community with that person in that position no longer there, that somehow it is still a high priority and that it is just a matter of a review taking place, and while that review is taking place, we will not have a consultant in the area. It just does not make a lot of sense, and I would have diffi culty if I were a staffpers on trying to convey that message. Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I think they will look at these charts that are here, look at the positions and draw their own conclusions as to prioritie s.

Mr. Manne ss: The member talk ed about Mr. Happychuk. He now woJks for the Public Schools Finance Board on industrial arts facilitie s, and now Mr. Draper is free to plan and wodt with field on curri culum. That is what we have done here. We have tried to make them greater specialists in their own rights, and so Marshall Draper is going to assume part of the responsibility. Yet we have a need in the Public Schools Fmance Board capital side to look at what we have out there as far as plant with respect to faci lities , and so there is some order, considerable order to the changes announced. Mr.

Plohman: We ll, just to close on this matter, may I indicate to the minister that Mr. Happychuk was an industrial arts specialist, that Marshall Draper is a vocational special ist, and that is quite diff erent. You have now got a vocational specialist partially in charge of industrial arts, so some might not see that as making that much sense. A question to the minister regarding the issue of protocols for special needs , delivery of services for special needs students in the schoo ls. It is a major area, one that has been discussed at Estimates over the last number of years, one that really has not -

- - May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1589 been addressed in tenns of any concrete action in the field; it has been more that there were deputi es' committees and other committees looking at this. We went through this last year, and during the Estimates. •

(1500) I have a letter here which I would be prepared to table that Mr. Carlyle has written on April 21 to Health and Safety representative of the Canadian Union of Public Employees about this issue, because they have been concerned about it. It seems to indicate , and I will quote from it: For your inf ormation, the interdepartmental committee re views existin g service mandates and jurisdictions on an ongoing basis to identify areas where increased service co-ordination is both possible and desirable.

The committee prepares this material for consideration by the ministers responsible for the human service sector. I am not in a position, therefore , to release reports publicly which are prepared as background infonnation to assist ministers in setting future policy directions. I would be pleased to forward a status report, however, once the gover nment decides deliberations are co mplete . That was on April 21. So can the minister bring us up to date on the status of-as I said to the minister, if be would like, certainly they can have a copy of this-1 quoted from the letter-if they so wish; anyone can have it.

But I wonder if the minister could indicate what reports have been prepared, are completed for ministers, and when we can expect a polic y statement on this. Is this something that the minister is placing any priority in? It is something that is identified in all education circles as critical for the effic ient delivery of services to special needs students in our schoo ls. Teachers are very of ten being asked to administer medica tion, and a lot of rather complicated medical procedures, and they are not trained to do it.

They are having to deal with students who have severe disruptive tendencies in many cases, and there need to be resources put into this from other prof essions , other departments, I think, to have it done efficiently in the schoo ls.

Now, maybe the minister does not agree with that; be is shaking his bead Let us see if be does and whether be is inclined to put this on the back burners again as his predecessors have done, or whether be intends to bring it fo rward and address it in a similar way that the protocols have been developed in other provinces such as British Columbia, which I am sure be is familiar with. Mr. Manness: Well, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I know this has been a long-standing issue , and I know many in the community and education community are waiting for a response from- The Acting Deputy Ch airperson (Mr.

Sveinson) : Order, pl ease. It just happe ned that this came up about this last letter here. You did say, I will table the letter. Mr. Plohman: I said I am prepared to table it if it is asked fo r. The Acting Deput y Chairperson (Mr. Sveinson) : Order. That is not what was said. Point of Order Mr. Plohman: On a point of order, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. We have just interru pted the minister in his response because you , as Chairperson, have said I said I was going to table it. It is a small diffe rence between what I did say and what you think you heard me say.

What I did say is that I am prepared to table this letter if it is desired by anyone-that copies can be made available. I did not say I was tabling it. I said I am prepared to table it if l am requested to do so. That is the standard way it is dealt with. The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. Sveinson) : Order. You have made it clear what you said now. • •• Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Mr . Acting Deputy Chairperson, I would appreciate in fact a copy of the letter. Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we do not need a copy because we sent it out.

This issue is a vexing issue in many respects, but very important, as we try and decide how to deal

1590 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 with a problem that is real and that many sense that government by decree or edict bas the magic solution and/or the resources to put into place a solution. We are still internally , within government, reviewing, and the member uses the word "struggling," and be is maybe not too far from the truth.

But we know that there are critical situations with respect to em otional and behavioral dis ordered children and yet trying to come forward with a multisystem case-management system-1 do not know what tenn you put to it- including all of the pla yeiS, is not proving to be very easy . We do have a blueprint. We do have a fonn . Certainly , I will not release it at this time, because it is not government policy at this time, but we are continuing to struggle with this issue. Mr. Plobman: Can the minister indicate whether this will be released as part of his education refonn blueprint then? Mr.

Mann ess: No, I do not think it will be, but it could very well-there could be a rele ase, I am hoping , more or less at the same time. But as far as an integral part of the ref orm, no. Mr. Plobman: Is the minister saying then that we will have a definitive position or a statement of policy as curre nt as anything that is possible then of the government of day when that is released? Mr. Mann ess: I am not promising that Certainly, though, that is an ob jective of mine. I mean, it really is. I have indicated I was hoping to have this released by early, early s umm er, but that is a goal. I cann ot promise that.

Mr. Plobman: Is the diffi culty greater with regard to the various hierarchies of control and the un willin gness of the bureaucracy to give up the control, or is it more with resources with money that the minister is struggling with here? Mr. Mann ess: We ll, it is a bigger issue than that. I mean obviously resources are a significant part to it, but is it not time to maybe evaluate the whole process of inclusion? I mean it is time to do that too, so it is a bigger picture. Mr.

Plobman: So the minister is saying he is also dealing with the desirabi lity of the whole process of mainstreaming students, physically and mentally disabl ed-cball enged is, I believe, more app ropriate-fltudents into the regular classrooms . That question is being dealt with as well. That seems fundamental then to education refonn as well. I am rather curious about that, since the minister said it would not be part and parcel of his ed uca tion blueprint. It woul d be rather fundamental to that it would seem. Mr.

Manness: Well, there is no doubt, I mean, if we bring in a major new reform, there will be some ramifications that may change the way we look at things and the way we have accepted the status quo. Of course, then that leads to other considerations as we move up that road, but the most important is the whole discussion on the role of the school and the relati onship to other government departments. So if you start at that beginning point, you would then have to take all of your thinking down that path.

So I guess what be is saying is, in part, be is right; be would say, well, then you have to have this all thought out with respect to refonn. Obviously we are going to have to think around it. Whe ther or not a specific recommendation or action flows as a result of it is too soon to say. Mr. Plobman: So this ties in then with the special needs review that the minister was ref erencing in answer to questions yesterday, and this whole area of review of special needs services, the principle of mainstreaming, perhaps , even as part of that review-we ll, of inclusion of the students in the regular cl assro oms.

Mainstreaming refers to high sc hool tenninology as well as in the elementary school when you bring students into the regular cl assro oms. I know that very often those words are thrown around and maybe in a confusing way, but I am using it in the sense that disa bled, physically and ment ally challenged children are not separated out the way mo dern practice bas been, but included as much as po ssible , tha t bei ng main streaming into the regular clas sro om. So is that principle, just to clarify then, one that is being reconsidered by the minister as part of this review? -

- - May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1591 • (15 10) Mr. Manness: We ll, Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the left band has to know what the right hand is doing. I mean that is a given, and the special nee ds study obviously will atte mpt to do that There is no doubt in my mind that mainstreaming and reaching out to a large cross

section of handic apped is well accepted and a high idea l to be able to provide , and we want to continue to do that. But the question is, and I think it is time to question. I mean do we include absolutely everybody? Was this the original objective ? Are we in keeping with the original objective or have we gone beyond it, aod if we have, what are the impacts? These questions have to be asked. They are not easy to ask. They are not always the most gentle areas that one would like to find themselves, but the reality is they have to be asked.

So rather than just building in another add- on, another calling on a bunch of resources and say, well , throw some more money at it, it will fix it, I think it is time to be bold aod brave aod to step back aod look at the larger issue, and that is what we are attempting to do. (Mr. Deputy Chairpers on in the Chair) Mr. Plohman: Yes, well, the minister is quite right in terms of reviewing policies aod practices that are in place. They should be questioned and reviewed as to whether they are ef fe ctive and efficient aod are meeting the needs from time to time. That is obvious that that should happen.

I guess I am working from the assumption that this is a good policy. It may be when dealing with all of the problems out there and with all of the students ' needs out there, the minister may come to the conclusion that he cann ot afford to do it, to meet all of those needs , aod so it is a question then of which one is the most efficient, which model.

I believe that by centralizing those services in the schools, especially in areas where they really need it, where there is a large number of students , that it is the most eff ective way to go, that the public health nurses have to be in the schools, and the other services, social services have to be-- the professionals have to be in the schools in contact with those children aod free teachers up to teach. It should not cost more overall , I would not think, because those specialists are there. It is just a question of how accessible they are to the students .

They have to deal with these children after in the other parts of their lives, but they do not have to deal with them in their school lives, and it does not make sense that they stop at the door of the school . Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is part of our problem because, for instance, in the rural areas, I am led to believe that Health is of the view that public health nurses are not trained.

This is the point, I mean, if public health has to divert their resources that are not working in the field during the day into the public school, then obviously the work in the field is not being done , and so obviously then we are calling on a significant increase in resources because no person that I know of can be in two places at one time. Mr. Plohman: The fact is though that it may be the most efficient way to deal with these children instead of dealing with them after school hours when they are at home and in a crisis situation.

It is kind of the ongoing supp ort that may be nee ded, aod, of course, there are other tasks now that teachers are having to do in the schools. It is a question of whether it is efficient use of, you know, teacher time, so it does distract considerably from their ability to meet the educational needs of those students aod others. The question is, is that fair to everyone else in the cl assroo m? The minister might come at it from the point and say, well, maybe we should just change the system aod consider whether those kids should be in that classroom in the first place.

That should be considered, but I am saying working from the premise- I am not trying to put words in the minister's mouth nor a position in this for him to take-but given that they are in the classroom , then is it not best to have other specialists providing the services that they are trained to do and leave teac hers free to teach? Mr. Man ness: The member makes a strong point, and I do not disagree with anything he said.

1592 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 Mr. Plobman: Ye s, Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, a couple of questions maybe about the Winnipeg 1 questions that were asked yesterday about a $10 .2 million categorical grant that is made available for special needs students and 60 percent, 59 percent of it going to Winnipeg 1 to meet the additional nee ds in recognition of the greater numbers. It was asked yesterday. I just want to ask the minister, be made his argument very forc efully to the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) that, in fa ct, this recognizes the need and addresses the need .

Will be recognize as well that with the considerably more numbers there-and be just bas to ask his staff for the proportion of special needs students in Wmnipe g 1 versus the rest of the province-that perhaps those res ources are just scratching the surface in terms of the total needs and that therefore there is a considerably greater burden on the Winnip eg 1 School Division to meet the needs of these children, but well beyond what most other school divisions have to do. Well, I am asking whether the minister agrees with that. Mr.

Mann ess: Well , I do agree with that, and that is why the categorical funding is in place and so much of it goes to Winnipeg School Division No. 1. I do agree. Mr. Plohman: Is the minister aware, for example , that $400,000 was spent by Winni peg 1 for physiotherapy for special nee ds students, which is totally paid for by the school division? Is that something that the minister sees as a responsibility of the school division to fund versus coming from the province as opposed to a school division? Mr. Mann ess: Well , Mr.

Deputy Chairpers on, I mean, app ropriate , who should do what and when and all that when it comes to interrelationships between levels of government, that is always a tough call. All I know is it ends up in the same pot, and local decision makers deci de where the highest priority is. That is the basis of local deci sions. I mean, I can think the City of Winnipeg in my view, it is my view, may be too actively involved in social programming, but they have been given a right to levy taxes and to make certain decis ions; they do so.

A school division, if it decides that there is not enough support there and decides that on its own it wants to tax its citizens to provide that suppo rt, that is its free choice to do so. I do not know bow we change that system . But on the same band, when they decide to do it and say, well, we are doing it, but really it is the senior levels of gov ernm ents ' responsibility, I can tell you, you can argue until the cows come home and you are not going to be able to reach the conclusion on that one. I mean, things sort of move along, and then they jump.

By that I mean I look at the contribution made to special needs over a period of time . They sort of move along on a constant con tinuum , and then som ething causes it to spike upward in support. These last fe w years, sometimes it is a downward provision of support because of the reality of fu nding today. I cannot draw any conclusions out of those that come to me and say, bey, we are doing this, but it really should be your responsibility. I mean, we do that as a provincial gover nm ent. We say that to the fe deral government.

You know, here we are doing this, but you are omoading there, and really, it is not our responsibili ty. I mean, you can waste away all the time of the day arguing and debating these points . • (15 20) Mr. Plobman: Yes, well, the minister has to recognize, I would imagine, that socioeconomic conditi ons, poverty, bas a great deal of impact on the ability of students to learn.

It presents a great myriad of problems that maybe would not be found in other school divisions, so when we are talking about things like nutrition programs and so on, these are almost fundamental fo r these children in getting to the schools. So the minister cannot just tum his back on them either and say, well, they are being off ered by the school division, and we do not have the resources to do it.

It is kind of like ignoring the problems and letting someone else look after them, and that is why I asked the question about the degree of need in the Winn ipeg 1 School Division, even though the minister is leaving the impr ession that, yes, there is more going in there proportionally to that - -

- May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1593 school division. The fact is, though, that the need, I think, bas been proven to be much, much greater, and growing when we are dealing with poverty , and the minister just bas to look at the growing welfare rolls, the increase of 200 or 300 percent in the last number of years, to know that in fact this is a growing problem . I want to move on to another area just briefly.

The minister bas stated that be is moving, be is inclined, I guess, to accept that there is less reliance or should be less reliance on a single textbook and that there should be more variety in materials available for courses. It kind of would indicate to me that maybe the minister is- Point of Order Mr. Mann ess: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, a point of order. I did not pass judgment one way or the other. What I said was it was reality. That is what exists today. Less reliance on a single textbook indicates that is what we have in place today. We do not have that in place today.

It is not a point of Older, but I bad to clear the record because the words were not quite properly put down by the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plotman). Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable minister did not have a point of order. It was just a dispute over the fa cts. ••• Mr. Plohman: I want to thank the minister for facilitating my question. He bad written a letter in April '94 to the Teac hers' Society, school trustees, included in the resource-based learning and education model that was sent out.

In it be said that resource-based learning is an educational model which, by design, actively involves studen ts, teachers and teacher -librarians in the meaningful use of a wide range of appropriate print, nonprint, and human resources. This goes on to say students mastering indej>endent learning skills is a means to handle their present day information needs .

It seems to indicate, since it was signed by the minister, that in fact be does recognize the value or the advisability of moving away from a single textbook to a wide range of materials as contained in the resource-based learning model, or did be just not really endorse it-be just sent it out for reaction-because from reading this letter, I would assume the minister endorses this app roach. I am kind of interested to know now whether, in fact, be does or does not, especially since his clarification of a moment ago. Mr.

Manness : Well , I remember, when I signed that letter, I read it once and I read it twice and I read it several times, and would you not know it, the member for Dauphin bad to ask me a question on this. I understand the rationale, in all walks of life, of having various resources at your disposal and bow important that is, but I still am of the belief that somet hing bas to be primal. Now, as I said yestenlay in my remarlcs, this is becoming kind of a troubling issue with me because I am trying to decide which way to go on it. In my view, there should be a provincial text.

Now the question is, should everybody follow it religiously? We ll, I am not as troubled by that as long as everybody religiously worlcs toward the learning ass ociated with the basic concepts that are in our provincial text, and the vast majority of them have not, not all of them, of course, but virtually all. So I guess that is my general view that I bring to the office. I know it would take us some time to get there .

Notwithstanding what the member thinks or what I think, bow are we going to do it in the global context outside of Manitoba, because as I have said many times, many pla ces, I think we are past the days when Manitoba can have a Manitoba cuniculum. You cannot have that anymore . I think we are going to have a regional cuniculum. Let us play that in theory. Let us say Saskatchewan bas its 20 resources. Manitoba bas 20 different ones. Alberta bas 30 different ones and B.C. bas 60 different ones. What we are sayi ng, then, is basically, to give full effect to my letter if somebody wanted to take the

interpretation out of it that some might, well, we can have a curriculum based on 150 resource texts . You know I am using the argument to the extreme, but the reality is where does that leave

1594 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 us? So then you are going to see the constant pressing down to something of greater common ality. I guess in a math context the concepts have to be similar throughout, but once you start to move into some of the other courses of study, and you start to allow room for inter pretation around concepts, then it becomes a little bit troubling.

So I do not know whether I have addre ssed the member 's question or I have left him more confused than I am myself, but I am saying I understand why there have to be various resources and why we should not fixate everything on one. I can tell you that at the end of the day, something is going to have to be held out that is higher than the rest Mr. Plohman: I think teachers in the school divisions and people involved in education take this pretty seriously when the minister sends this out It is not just, here is some resource materials.

This is an education model that he was endorsing and sending out to the education community, a res ource -based learning education model It would seem he was endorsing it, not that it was just a minor perhaps deviation or diversion from his task to move towards greater uniformity. I think, though, that it does fit in with what I was saying yesterday.

Perhaps the minister will be helped by this, or petbaps he will not be, but it is really the bench marks and sta ndards that are established that are the important fe atures here for curriculum, not necessarily the recipe book to get there, that there are maybe several paths to get students to attain because everyone learns differently at differe nt rates and so on. So would the minister say, then, that perhaps by marrying those two ideas, in fact this could fit in quite nicely with that proposition? Mr. Manness: I do not think we are too far apart on this.

I mean, I honestly believe that as we give more-l will not use the word "juris diction" -influ ence to local schools to decide programming outside the core sub ject are a particularly, and even with maybe influencing also the core sub ject area, that they will want to reflect on the material used Some may very well want, within their school communities, notwithstanding the educat or's des ire , to try to influence collaboratively a decision that moves in some settings to a more rigid system of textural, if there is such a word, leadership.

In other divisions and/or schools they may want to leave that school commun ity completely flexible to accept the pureness of the res ource -based freedom . But you are right. Ultimately the great arbiter between those two approache s, if we allow the greater flexibility as far as the commun ity deciding, will be the standards themselves and the evaluation methods put in place. • (1 530) Mr.

Plobman: Well, perhaps inadvertently the minister has moved himself down the path to greater fle xibility than he desired, but I am pleased, actually, that he may have done this with petbaps some degree of question and doubt when he signed the letter. I think that it actually is a positive development, and I hope that he does not rej ect that move in the future. Mr.

Manness: I will not. as long as the education community does not rej ect my desire to have a main text, not the compulsory use of it but to have a main provincial text, because I am pretty sure I am going to have to develop one in concert with the other province s, as long as we do not rej ect each other. Mr. Plohman: Well, that is an interesting statement by the minister in terms of the text.

I thought that what he might want to be developing with the western provinces is a common core curriculum with the outcome for each level clearly outlined, but, again, the way to get to there left with some flexibility for each of the provinces and indeed each of the school division's schoo ls, and this is what seems to indicate resource -based learning moves toward. As long as you have those outcomes and the standards and bench marks outlined, why do you need the recipe book?

Why do you need that textbook that the minister now says he is going to probably have to develop and he is going to want endorsation for, if indeed he is going to continue to support this kind of thing, which is a broader base -

- - May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1595 of research materials available to supplement the curriculum? · Mr. Manness: Bec ause I believe it is the government 's responsibility to make sure that exists. I am not saying, and I am not at this point advocating that everybody, that anybody has to use it, but there has to be a point of ref erence. That point of ref erence, in my belief, in my view, is that the government has to have a main text. I am not advocating, again, for the record, that it has to be used; I me an that is the thinking. Mr.

Plobman: I think the minister would have a lot of people confused in those two statements then in tenns of saying he wants to have the main text, but he is not advocating it has to be used, and then he has said that bench marks and standards are the key. He has agreed with that proposition. The question is then, what force in fact will this main text book really have? I think the minister has now waffled over it. If you are going to have a main text, but you are not going to require it, then, again, the main text is just another one of the ref erence materials, but the standards are the key. Mr.

Manne ss: The standards are the key . The main text, for those who want to use it, that will be their referenc e-- for those who want to use it. For those who do not, they will not use it. They will use other so urces , other refe rences, other reference material. The standards are the key. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, we will wait and see how that falls out in the minister's blueprints, expected hopefully in the next month and a half, by the e nd of June. We will hold the minister to that. A couple of quest ions yet on Dista nce Education.

I have a meeting to go to at four, just in the building here, with MAST representati ves. I am hoping that eithe r the Liberal critic will want to take the last hour, or else I will have to get my other critic to deal with some of the other issu es. I wanted to ask the minister, just in regard to that meeting that we are having, MAST has come forward clearly endorsing the distance education task force report. They have mentioned a couple of major areas that they would like to see government action on.

We discussed the initiative in Distance Education just yesterday, the $750,000 for pilot proje cts and so on, but we really did not deal with the task force report at all. I am wondering whether the minister could tell us as to the progress made . It seemed to me maybe he was suggesting that perhaps it is outdated already , because things move along so quickly. There was some reference.

Is the minister implementing or intending to implement, and I draw his attention specifically to the establishment of the provinc ial council, with representatives from regional consortia, like where is that at, and from the department and other users of the system and so on, the MTS? That was a major, central recommendation and it would seem to me would be fundamental in perhaps even deciding which pilots should be funded, and the minister talked about making de cisions on that. So has that happ ened? Mr.

Manness: We have Treasury Board clearance to begin to build that council, and yet we are going to have to do it carefully , bearing in mind some of the other comments I m ade yesterday, worldng towards the greater integrated model. When the task force wrote, of course, its report and made reference by way of that recommendation, it was thinking, the writers, I know, were thinking almost purely of education. A year hence-! mean, we have as a government policy-education is obviously important, if not the most important, but there are other factors that had to be taken into account.

So we are struggling to see how it is we give a council on educa tion total advisory capacity dealing with education, and yet hoping and wanting that it would also consider the greater requirements of the community. So that is what we are struggling with, and yet we certainly have agreed to the council. We see where it has an incredibly important role, and we will bring it into being in one fashion or anothe r. Now, as far as my ref erence to the report changing, I was not talking about the concept of clustering and/or worlcing together and sharing services. That, in itself, is still very important and

1596 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 would be the mainstay behind the new distance education thrust. What I was talking about more so was the techno logy and how that is changing, and there are certainly two diff erent areas to consider. Mr. Plohman: I do not think the recommendations from the task force were based on one technology. The microwave adv ances would certainly fit in with this, I would think, as weD as fiber optic cable, but they did ta1k about integrating in the community.

Everything seems to be based on that, the importance of the need for focus on commun ity commitment to lifelong learning; not just the public education system, the importance of co-ordinating activities at the local level, libraries and so on. So it seems that was always intende d, to recognize that this was going to be broader certainly than just the public education system and post-seco ndary institutions. So it seems to be reflected to a certain extent in here, and I think that that is what that council was supposed to do. It was supposed to deal with the education aspects of it.

Now, is the minister saying that he is struggling as to whether the government as a whole should set up some type of mec han ism, a council to co-ordinate all these needs, as opp osed to one that co-or dinates education needs, and then have a separate , maybe , arm that would deal with the other issues? Mr. Manness: 1be member is correct.

Certainly, when this was written a year ago, we knew conceptually that there would be other services, but not until we got int o-- for instance, let us use an example, the Depa rtment of Health, and re alized that on its own, it is also alm ost dupli cating, not dup licating, but it is putti ng into place systems using techno logy.

Nobody that would have written that report would have known, because we did not know until several months ago that there is tremendous potential and that, indeed, if you do not take that into account at the beginning you put at risk the ability to support not only the education syst em, but a health app lication and anything else, so you had better do your thinking properly at the beginning. That is what we are trying to do. Mr. Plohman: 1be integrated approach seems to be included in the regional consortia. That seems already to be built into the recommendations , not just for education.

The point is that the provincial council is supposed to have representatives from that, as regions, so it already could reflect that integrated app roach. and it is just a question now whether it should be broader at the provincial level to include all of those other departments as named, with representatives named by government or through agencies of some kind to add to the expertise in rounding out the nature of the council. Is that the way the minister sees it going, or is the council idea perhaps in jeopardy? Mr.

Manness: WeD, no, that is the way it has to go, but the question is, is it a council that is focu sing on education first and then integrating in everything else, or is it a council, a broader council that is looking from an umbrella standpoint of which education is a very important goal. That is our-I will not call it a dilemma, but that is where we are . •

(1540) Mr. Plohman: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, they also suggested that the Telephone System be strongly enco uraged to es ta blish a branch dealing specifically with telecommunication services for educa tional use. Has that been done? Has the minister been in contact with his colleague responsible for the Telephone System? In fac t, do they have the kind of expertise that is required and needed to carry out their role in the delivery of and the developmen t of the elect ronic highway, distance education being a part of it? Mr. Manness: Well, who am I going to be in trouble with most if I answer that question?

I mean my sense is that Manitoba Telephone System, there are a couple of individuals within the organization who understand fully well where this approach is going . Now, the question is whether they are senior people or not. I think there has been a realization at senior levels over the course of just the last fe w months how important an emer ging are a this is to the well-being not only of the Telephone System, but as importa ntly to rural Manitoba. -

- May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1597 Certainly they will be part of any dialogue as we by to work towards a better integrated model. Mr. Plohman: Would the minister see them as being the primary player when dealing with fibre optic technology and the cable companies being the primary player when dealing with the digital microwave or would that be oversimplifying it? Mr. Manness: That is oversimplified.

I mean, I guess the question the member really is asking is should they maintain a monopoly or restricted monopoly-[interjection] No, I am putting words in his mouth, I acknowledge that-and/or whether the competitive model be allowed to have a greater influence in a lot of these decisions . You know, we are struggling with that element too right now. Mr. Plohman: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have no further questions at this particular point in time. I will pass it to someone else and come back to a couple of points my colleague has on native educat ion, but not a great deal more in this particular branch.

We want to move to the bureau as soon as possible , but, as I said, I will have to leave for a while . If it is necessary to deal with those other issues now, we can. Mr. Lamoureux: I wanted to pick up on the meeting that I bad with the Manitoba School Library Association, actually, where there was a great deal of concern with respect to the resource based learning model that the minister bad in fact issued out. Generall y spea king, I had thought that it was received quite positively in terms of what they believe is the direction that the Minister of Education was wanting to see us move towards.

In the discussions that I had, I thought they had put it quite well, and it is going to lead to a series of questions that I would like to ask the minister . They talked in terms of the differences of a schoo l library compared to a school library program. It is a significant difference . I wanted to read in terms of how they worded it. A school library is a collection of books organized and catalogued, able to circulate with minimal loss and confusion. A qualified technician or qualified cledc would give you a school library.

A school library program, on the other band, matches the material resource of a school library to the curriculum design of classroom activities, the teachers ' style s, the teachers , the learning styles of the students and the information skills of both. Only a qualified teach er-l ibrarian can give students and teachers a school library program. As the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) has · pointed out, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I believe that there are a number of people from within that whole area, and particul arly the School Library Association, have received this report in a very positive way.

We would like to believe that the minister is not trying to build up expectations that he is not going to be able to deliver later on. There ware a specific number of questions that they bad asked me or concerns that they bad expressed to me. I want to see if we can get some of those questions answered. One of the major ones was, if we are going to be moving into this area, how will the educators, if you like, be trained in the future to be able to facilitate having library programs? Mr.

Manness: We have a school library specialist who has been worldng in the department for two years and will continue to do so to by and share the knowledge that we have at the department with those practitioners in the field. Mr. Lamoureux: On the organizational chart where would the school library specialist fit in? Mr. Manness: She is in the provincial specialists area in the Program Implementation Branch of the division. Mr. Lamoureux: Could the minister indicate in terms of what specifically her role is in terms of trying to provide pro gramming, training seminars? Maybe the minister could comment on that. Mr.

Manness: As the member indicates, he has answered his own question. Her role is to lead training seminars and prof essional development sessions and, of course, to be there as a consultant as individual problems arise or questions need to be answered He has answ ered his own que s tion . · · Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate , in terms of the number of training pr ograms, is this

1598 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 1994 something that we are looking at the expansion ofl Is there a role , for example, for the University of Manitoba to play as part of the curriculum for teachers ed? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, pl anning for next year is happening at this particular time. So there are not any definitive plans at this point in cast, but we are worlcing on those plans. As far as using valued experience or views from outside of the depart ment, whether they come from the university or elsewhere , certainly we are welcome to accept all offers of support. Mr.

Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate in terms of what sort of planning they are putting into worlcs for the upcoming year and how that would vary from the previous year? Do we see, for example, additional resources towards seminars, in particular, in rural Manitoba? • (15 50) Mr. Manness: We will develop a plan. We will take it out to the regions. We will let them react to it If they deem that it is in keep ing with what they feel the local clientele wants, then they will be acce pted. If there are some changes required, we will change those.

If it requires some additional resources, that can happe n, but that will have to come out of their allocation. If that is dee med as the highest priority within their alloca tion, then there will be more resources directed. Mr. Lamoureux: I wonder if the minister can indicate whether or not be sees, in the future, the need to have some sort of a certification for librarian-teachers in our schools . Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson , this is quite an issue. This does not begin or end with a specia list as a librarian and the certification showing that.

That is the question, but certainly the answer does not end there, because there is no end of individuals today who want specialization under the certification process. It is not only in education, I might add Why do you think this government of the day referred to the Law Reform Commission -how it is the professions come to grips with the expandi ng proliferation of powers that they want within subdisciplines, want by way of legislation.

So the member asks very direct questions specifically dealing with librarians, and I know be would like me to be able to give him a very direct answer, but from the government point of view , it expands and explodes to something much greater. Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate in terms of what is there curre ntly at universities to facilitate librarians expanding their skills? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Olairperson, there are courses on being a librarian. The member asks , well, are there enough of these courses offered during formal training as one proceeds through the Faculty of Education?

We are asking those questions ourselves right now. Certainly, the teacher training initiatives committee that bas been put into place and is working closely with the Faculty of Education is trying to delve in greater depth into this whole issue. Mr. Lamoureux: The minister made reference to the teachers training committee. Is there , in fact, a librarian on that particular committee? Mr. Manness: Yes, there is. She happe ns to be a staff member of the department at this point, but she is a qualified librarian, so I would say yes. Mr.

Lamoureux: Given the importance of educational reform in the incorporation of a library program , if you like, which is no doubt an important and integral part to distance education, I am wondering if the minister fee ls that there is a need to have some form of enhanced curriculum development at the faculty over at the University of Manitoba in order to keep up with the technol ogies . Mr. Manness: A very important role, extremely important. You know, the question is, is that more important than developing curriculum in math, science and language arts?

I mean, this is an issue of priorities , very important in itself. The location of where that expertise should be placed is maybe in question but very important, but I say no more important than developing curriculum in the core subject areas. Mr. Lamoureux: The minister, throughout the Estimates, refers to the core curriculum area Does be include technology as pa rt of the core curriculum?

- - May 12, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1599 Mr. Manness: That is a very key element to es sential learning, unquestionab ly, but is the member then saying that be envisages that only in a course, or is be more inclined to envisage it like I tend to do, across many courses ? It is part of our activity, and I would have to think rather than just focusing on it in its own course area, that maybe it should be integrated in other learning.

I mean nothing impressed me more when I was in River Bast high school and saw the relationship between fr an�ais and computer science, and here there were two teachers who were putting their course wolk together and fully integrated. I would have to say that is more important in my view than maybe just trying to foc us it as a "you either take it or you don't, make your decision now." Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that is all the questions I have on Education Ref onn. I am quite prepared to go into Assessment and Evalu ation. I know the member for Dauphin (Mr.

Plobman) is back, unless you have some more questions for Education Ref onn. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 2.{b)(

l) Salaries and Employee Benefits $505,400-- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1,7 44,600-p ass. (

c) Assessment and Evaluation (1 ) Salaries and Employee Benefits $675,900. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, under the ob jectiv es, it indicates that the department is to analyze school and student data to detennine if standards are in fact being met. My question is, in te nns of, how is this data infonnation compiled and what data is collected and bow? Mr. Man ness: Three ways, Mr. Deputy Cbaitperson.

The member would know that the department bas been doing assessments on curriculum for a number of years, over the course of the last two years, three years, provincial exams with report back to local divisions and, thirdly, a provincial report with respect to the results associa ted with those provincial exams. Mr. Lamoureux: I am not necessarily referring to provincial exams . In my reading of it, I take it that there is data or infonnation that is collected from the local schools. This is the inf onnation I am referring to, that school divisions might have in place for their local e xams , that sort of thing.

Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not know whether the member bas spent the time in some of the curriculum assessmen t results. I r

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-26
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 26.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5cd644b46b2a062bf43950c1664236f9821f06cd

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