Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 1975 SPEAKER : THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 5

March 4, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Tape 124 IB-1 We have in the galleries today two delegations from the District of Bonavista South. From the Town of Bonavista, the mayor, Mr. Gordon Bradley, the deputy mayor, Mr. Fred Gosling 1with councillors Frank Sweetland and Maxwell Way and the town manager,Mr. Calvin Rose; and from the Town of King's Cove, the mayor, Mr. Thomas Hancock. On behalf of all the honourable members, I certainly welcome you gentlemen to the galleries today. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: HON. J.C. CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Xr.

Speaker, I met this morning with seventeen representatives of the inshore or seasonal plants that operate in the fishery on the northeast coast at their request so they could discuss with me the problems that they see arising in the inshore fishery this year. Of course, there are many problems that may arise. Among the representatives were Mr. Alec Moores, Mr. Fred Earle, Mr. Bud O'Brien, Mr.~urice Quinlan, Mr. Arthur O'Brien, Mr. Ed Janes and others.

I would like to reaffirm in public what I told them privately, that is 1 that the Government of Newfoundland 1and certainly the present Government of Newfoundland 1 has no intention of permitting the disappearance or the weakening of the inshore fishery of this province, and that the inshore fishery which includes the fishermen, the plant workers and the processors and marketers of fish-their problems are recognized by the government, that the government is prepared to assist.

Of course when we know what programmes are to be introduced by the Government of Canada when the various studies now under way are concluded for the medium and long term, that this province is certainly prepared to do its part, and that in connection with the inshore fishery will take whatever steps are necessary to continue its viability. 399

11arch 4, 1975 Tape no. 125 Page 1 - mw I am not of the opinion that seems to be held by some, who are a distance from the province, that the inshore fishery of Newfoundland can ever be allowed to die, or that it should be allowed to die. Apart from economic implications altogether, the social reasons are overwhelming. We cannot see that happen on the whole northeast coast of our province. I, therefore, assure them that they will be having the support of this government in the coming season, and that we recognize the value of the inshore fishery, and we will see that it is not abandoned.

There are some interesting statistics which I might just give the House, which they gave me this morning, that there are twenty-three seasonal plants on the northeast coast, with 5,200 employees at the peak of their season. Their gross plant payroll last year was $8,700,000. I am rounding out the numbers. The gross U.I.C. benefits, as a result of the plant workers employment, is $6,200,000. They dealt with 5,800 fishermen. Gross payments to the fishermen, by these seasonal plants,were $10,600,000. They calculate the U.I.C. benefits to the fishermen, as a result, $7,400,000.

Their total fish purchases were 108,000,000 pounds this year, down considerably. The total trap fish purchases were 27,000,000 pounds, and some of the rest of the information is about their expenses. I have just reaffirmed publicly, Mr. Speaker, what they have been told privately,that this government are pledged to ensure the successful continuation of the inshore fishery of this pro~ince, including the seasonal plants along the northeast coast.

Whatever additional must be done to see that they are protected, and that their efforts are successful, once we know what the assistance plans are of the Government of Canada, will be done by this government. The Government of Canada have the prime jurisdiction, because they have jurisdiction in fisheries. They also have, of course, the great financial resources. This province has no intention of allowing the elimination, or the death of the inshore fishery of the province. 400

March 4, 197§ Tape no. 125 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Fogo. CAPT. E. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of this side of the House, we certainly welcome the statement by the Hon. Minister of Fisheries confirming that it is the intention of the government to see to it that everything possible is done to encourage and assist our inshor~ fishery. One point in the minister's semarks puzzles me at this particular time. Yesterday, or the day before, the honourable minister made a statement that many of the small plants along the north- east coast will have to be phased out.

Is the minister stating now that it is the intention of his government that this will not be so? Mr. Speaker, the inshore fishery cannot operate, and the people of the coID111unities where that inshore fishery is operated cannot gain the best benefits from the inshore fishery unless we have some kind of plant. It may not necessarily be a fresh fish processing plant or - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: I hate to interrupt the honourable member, but he is making more of a speech than replying to the statement made by the honourable minister. fi:APT. WINSOR: Mr.

Speakef, I am sorry if I twisted a little beyond what I had intended to say. However, these are matters which concern the inshore fishermen, and these are the matters, I think, which the minister should clarify. 401

March 4, 1975 Taoe 126 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MB. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, just on the point of explanation that the honourable gentleman asked about) I certainly did not say in this House - Is this in order, ~r. Speaker? 11.ffi.. NEARY: '-!ft. CROSRIF.: Yes. An exnlanation has been asked for. I certainly never said that there Pere a number of plants that would have to be phased out. I believe the honourable gentleman introduced a petition from Aspen Cove that: they wanted a fish plant in Aspen Cove. I simply said that - Al'l _HO_N_._!fF.",!BER:_ From Musgrave Harbour. ~-'R.

CROSBIE: from f~usgrave Harbour - that it is not possible to have a fish plant in every community. This government have not said that there is any need for any of the inshore plants in the northeast coast to phase out. Although there are those 1 particularly in federal service 1 who think this is the case but my statement is the policy of the government that we are not going to see the inshore fishery vanish. "ITT.. St'EAKER: Are there any other ministerial statements? The Hon. !•finister of Justice . t!ON. T. A. HICKMA,.'l (mNISTER OF JUSTICE) : Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce the appointment of Hr.

J!alcolm S']uires as Superintendent of ••.}I. Penitentiary. Superintendent Squires is a native of St. T'hillins. !le has had a very distinguished career at the Penitentiary service of this nrovince. Following graduation from Memorial University College as a teacher in training,• he taught for six years then joined the Ne•,foun<lland Constabulary and subsequently served in the Newfoundland P.an~er Force.

Superintendent Squires joined the Penitentiary service on November 26, 1944 and was nromoted through the different ranks and offices of the service culminatin~ in his a~pointment as an Assistant Superintendent of JT.M.Penitentiary in t-1ay 1%7. Ile has completed the necessary staff training nrop.rammes. Superintendent S(1uires is a !'\ember of the Atlantic Provinces Correctional and Criminologv Association and the Canadian Associations. 402

March 4, 1975 Tape 126 (Afternoon) Pk - 2 I am also pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. Alex Yetman as Assistant Superintendent of H. M. Penitentiary. Assistant Superintendent Yetman is a native of St. John's and a graduate of the three year public administration course at Memorial. He joined the staff of the Penitentiary in 1962 and served in various capacities including that of Classification Officer. He,too, is a member of the Board of Directors of the various Canadian and Atlantic Province Criminology and Corrections Associations.

These promotions and appointments were made by the Lieutenant­ Governor-in-Council on the recommendation of the Director of Adult Corrections, Mr. John Fagan who formerly served as Superintendent of Her Majesty's Penitentiary. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the members in Her Majesty's Opposition, we want to congratulate both Superintendent Squires and Mr. Alex Yetman on their promotions, Mr. Squires promoted to the Superintendent of Her Majesty's Penitentiary and Mr . Yetman, Assistant Superintendent.

While I am on my feet, Sir, I also want to express our congratulations to Superintendent Fagan who was recently appointed, I think, it was Director of Correctionals in the province to make it possible for Mr. Squires to be promoted. I do hope, Sir, that Mr. Squires and Mr. Yetman have every success in their new jobs. I know that Mr. Squires has a very difficult role to play , Sir, to follow in the footsteps of Superintendent Fagan who did such a tremendous job at Her Majesty's Penitentiary.

So on behalf of the members of the Opposition we want to congratulate both of these very fine Newfoundlanders, Sir, who have now been appointed to very responsible positions. MR. SPEAKER: Are there another other ministerial statements? The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. 403

"arch 4, 1975 Tape 126 (Afternoon) PK - 3 110~ .. . J .•. C. Cl\OSJHF. (Mll'{ISTBP. Oi' l'I SitERIES): ~!r . Speaker, 1 !<ould like to renort to the ~:ouJSe that tomorro-w the Memher for St . llarbe :-lort h and myself are going to Plum Point . AN TION. 'IBMllCR: !'ear! Hear ! '!R . -~_R_OS!IIE: We are only goin~ to stay for one day - AN HON. }ff''RY.l> : "h ! MP..

CROS!\IF.: - at the invitati on of the SL J!a1:be Coast lle1:ring Fishermens' Association to diScU$s with them a bl'.ief that they have nreoared for the Co•rerm'!ent of Canad:i and the Cove"Clllllent of Newfoundland, a nd, I t.hinl<, the Extension Service at Memorial assisted ti em on this as to -what should he done in the herring fishery on t he Coa5 t of !-t . Barbe North and Lahrador Sout h . t,•e will also be accompanied by tr. Aiden ~•alonev from the C:anadian Salt Fish Corporation .

NIL NEARY: Governm ent aircraft? ~ - CROSBlf.: Oh,detinitely y,overnment aircraft. \.le hope to land at Port au Choix and then ~o on that magnificent highway from thete to "lum l'oi nt . AN HON. M'El!RER: Inaudible . ~-:. _CROSBIE: The honourahle f!:enleman 1o1ould love to have his hands in either one of them . and an official of the nepartment of Fisheries also . t would also like to say at t his time that it has not been formally announced that thi s itovernment a·re ~•ell a~1are of t he problems in t he herrinR fishery alon~ t he St . Rar he Coast and in Labrador Sout h .

And as a result of our awareness we have invited the Canadian Salt Fish Corooratio n to participa t e Ln the herrin g fishery in the St . Rarbe Coas t and in Labrador Sout h next vear . In the area from Port 404

March 3, 1975. Tape 127 ,,.,T ' •. J .. - Saunders to St. Lunaire 1 from Port Saunders at the top of St. Barbe South, I guess it is, to St. Lunaire which is in White Bay North) along that coast and along the eouthcoast of Labrador from L I Anse-au-Clsi · to Red Bay inclusive, I think ircluding Black Tickle. The purpose of this is not that they be given a monopolYi but that they are invited to operate up there. We are going to enter into an agreement with the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation for them to operate up there for at least three years.

The government agrees to cover them for any losses, if they are incurred 1 up to $50,000 a year. Now, as honourable gentlemen may know, the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation has participated in the herring fishery or the herring business along Coastal Quebec,with the invitation of the Quebec Government>for two years under a similar arrangement. They will,therefore, be in the business in that area, will supply barrels and other material to the fishermen. They hope to buy a lot of the herring themselves and process it at certain central points themselves.

Now, for this programme to be successful, it is necessary for certain community stages to be upgraded and improved. We are hoping that the Federal Government would assist us with this. It is proposed that the connnunity stages at Anchor Point, Green Island Cove, Black Duck Cove, Sandy Cove and Savage Cove be utilized originally this yea~ and that they be upgraded this year. We feel it is necessary to erect the community stage at Bartletts Harbour. Whether or not that will be erected this year, I cannot tell you. In addition, it is planned to try to lease private facilities at St. Lunaire, so that St.

Lunaire would also be included. In addition, the facilities from L'Anse-au-Clair to Red Bay should be upgraded, We are proposing to the Federal Government through DREE, we are making a submission to DREE, hopefully encouraging on a herring, on a food herring development programme, whereb1,hopefully they will assist us in these various upgradings and put in a chill holding facility, most likely at St. Barbe. 40S

March 4, 1975 . Tape 127 RH - 2 Now, this is not all committed yet. This is what we hope to do and we are proposing to DREE. He are also proposing to the Federal Govt­ ment that certain community stages,which they still have responsibility for, that they will assist us in this upgrading programme. But in any event, the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation has been invited in to the area. We have agreed to cover their losses up to $50,000 a year. They had a loss in Quebec in the first year but not after that.

They would pay the fishermen a certain price at the beginning of the season and then if their results warranted,as they do in the salt fish business, they would make a further payment at the end of the season or even during the season if the results turn out to be good. Now, the main problem in the herring fishery along those two coasts has been - AN HONOURABLE HEHBER: Inaudible . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, Sir, the minister, Sir, is debating, not making a ministerial statement in accordance with the standing rules of this House, Sir.

If we are going to have a full fledged debate, ~(r. Speaker, then let us have it. I would submit that the minister is out of order and that Your Honour rule the r:dnister out of orcler as such, Sir. MR . srEAKER: The honourable 11inister of Education . HON. G. OTTENTTF.Dl"'!'I.: Your Honour, I would think that the minister was making a ministerial statement with respect to the government's policy on the fishery and certainly honourable members on the other side are interested in the fishery.

One aspect of the fishery is the herring fishery, and the ?!inister of Fisheries was explaining in a manner quite in order the government's policy with respect to the development and encouragement of the herring fishery. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: On a point of order, !Ar. S'[>eaker. I just simply hope that we will be given the same latitude when we reply to the ministerial statement . 406

March 4, 1975. Tape 127 RH - 3 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! The Chair has heard enough debate re this matter at the present time. It feels that the honourable Minister of Fisheries was quite in order in making a ministerial statement and shall judge whether other persons are relevant when the need arises. 407

!,{arch 4, 1975 Tape No. 128 NH - 1 MR. CROSBIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is quite obvious the honourable gentlemen do not want the fishery discussed in the House. To conclude my statement of government policy in the herring fishery, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. CROSBIE: The main problem in the herring fishery along these two coasts have been the loss of product due to deterioration of the product. A lot of the pack last year,that was packed by individual fishermen,spoiled.

It did not meet the fish rating regulations or was rejected when it got to market 1 and we expect that with the participation of the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation that problem should be avoided and there should be a much better ahance for a successful season this year under these arrange111ents. The details, of course, will be gone over tomorrow with these fishermen in St. Barbe North and we hope to get some useful ideas from them also. MR . SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, if I may reply to the Minister of Fisheries, I am looking forward with great anticipation to travelling to my District of St. Barbe North tomorrow with him. MR. SIMMONS: Watch him Fred. MR. ROWE: I compliment the minister for implementing a recommendation that we have been advocating for the past three years as a result of communications with the fishermen on the St. Barbe Coast 1 and that fishing business. This is very badly needed, Sir.

It is a recommendation that has come directly from the fishermen themselves~and I am glad to see that the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation now will be involved in the herring fishery and I think this will solve a tremendous 408

March 4, 1975 Tape No, 128 NM - 2 number of problems provided that care is taken that some of the private owners of herring sheds and some of the buyers are protected to a certain degree, Sir. I would like to point that aspect of it out. With respect to the :iJ1lprovements of the community stages, Sir, the minister suggested that there were four or five connnunity stages that are going to be upgraded, There are many more other community stages in the District of St.

Barbe North, Sir, that need to be upgraded and I would like for the minister to either clarify now1 or during the question period, where exactly community stages fall with respect to jurisdiction. As we know some of them have been built by the federal government, some by LIP projects and some of them built by the provincial government.

However there is extreme confusion as to who is responsible for community stages with respect to the building of new ones 1 and the renovations and improving of existing community stages\whether they were built by the federal government, LIP projects or winter works projects or by the provincial government 1 and I hope that we will not see in the months ahead a fight between the provincial government and the federal government over who is going to be responsible for paying for these improvements.

I hope it does not become a political football, Sir, and that the1e will be qtrl.et, calm negotiations going on between the Minister of Fisheries and the federal government in order to get the necessary funds to improve these community stages, I welcome as well the holding facility suggested foF th~ _St. Barbe area. But, Sir, I might point out that there are a total of fourteen recommendations made by the Herring Fishermen's Association for the St. Barbe Coast and three have been dealt with here.

This, Sir, is to my mind one of the best briefs that was ever developed by the fishermen of Newfoundland there on the St. Barbe Coast, an excellent brief, excellent recommendations right from the 409

March 4, 1975 Tape No. 128 NM - 3 fishermen themselves and unless all or most of these recolll!Denda.tions are implemented, Sir, I can sincerely say that not only the herring fisheries, but the fisheries in general is doomed to failure on the St. Sarbe Coast. So I do welcome the minister's announcement with re_specc co the implementation of some of these recommendations and I hope that he will see fit to recommend the other ten or eleven recommendations contained in that particular brief . PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance . BON. H. R. V. EARLE, Minister of Finance: Mr.

Speake r , I ask leave to present t'lol'o petitions, both from the settlement of Rencontre East in Fortune Bay and each petition signed by 112 residents. The first petition requests that the doctor stationed on the west side of Fortune Bay make at least three calls monthly at the settlement of Rencontre East and that a community nurse be stationed in the comnunity. 410

March 4, 1975 Tape 129 The second petition requests that the coastal service from Port aux Basques, the CNR boat, make at least three weekly calls at Rencontre East. I should explain, Mr. Speaker, that this settlement of IB-1 Rencontre East,consisting of a population of just under 300,is the last settlement in the District of Fortune Bay which can no longer be reached by road. It has no other means of communication except by sea or by air. The service to that

section of the bay is somewhat less than would be desirable. I feel that the CN service does its utmost to look after the needs of the people on the coast, but this particular settlement is sometimes bypassed because of weather conditions and other conditions beyond the control of the captains. As far as the medical services in that community are concerned, I agree with the residents that one call monthly is not sufficient, particularly as it is such a dangerous location to get in and out of that the doctor very often cannot stay overnight.

He has to come late and leave early and then it gives him very few hours in the settlement. So, I have no hesitation in supporting these two petitions and ask that they be laid on the table of the House and sent to the departments to which they relate. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues I certainly take pleasure in rising to support the prayer of the petition as presented by the honourable the Minister of Finance.

The two issues which constitute the prayer of these petitions certainly are issues which are of concern to people generally along the South Coast, including in particular my own District of Hermitage. The matter of medical services is one that is a continuing problem. Some effort has been made to improve the situation. I am thinking of the itinerant services of doctors to places like Roncontre and places in my own District of McCallum and Francois. I must compliment the Minister of Health for taking some initiatives here as a result of representations made to him by various parties.

I am sure as a result of his own awareness of the 411

March 4, 1975 Tape 129 IB-2 need, some initiatives have been taken and the situation has improved somewhat. As is evidenced by the petition presented by the Minister of Finance, there is certainly a lot of room for improvement there. The problems are many, and perhaps this is not the time to discuss them.

I do want to go on record on behalf of my colleagues as supporting the prayer of the petition concerning medical services and at the same time to take the opportunity to appeal once again to the Minister of Health to undertake a further review of the services as they relate to the more isolated communities along the south coast with a view to ensuring more regular services, more regular visits by the doctors. I have to take exception to the minister's remarks about coastal boat services.

I do not at all disagree with his remarks about the ~eed for good services, but I certainly cannot share his feeling that CN is doing an adequate job there. Indeed, it is my view, Mr. Speaker, that a very inadequate job is being done and I believe the time has come for members representative of the south coast and for the government to make representation to CM. Indeed,I myself have made representation to the Canadian Transport Commission on this subject. I think it is a deplorable service we are getting on the south coast.

I do hope that this petition will help bring to the attention of the right authorities the need to have this service upgraded. We on this side, Mr. Speaker, take pleasure in supporting the prayer of the petitions presented. HON. DR. A.T. ROWE (MINISTER OF HEALTH): I am supporting the petition for the improved medical services for Roncontre East. I would like to state that we have an arrangement now whereby a helicopter takes a doctor from Harbour Breton or Mose Ambrose or from St. Alban's on a regular basis to places like Francois, McCallum and Roncontre East.

I receive weekly the list of the clinics that are held by the travelling doctors. Over the last several months, as you can appreciate, the number of clinics has been cut because of the severe winter conditions. 412

r. March 4, 1975 Tape 129 We are now developing a programme whereby we are going to place a fourth doctor in the area whose job will be to relieve at four specific clinics to these outlying areas. This, I hope, will improve the service tremendously. 413 IB-:

March 4, 1975 Tape no. 130 Page 1 - mw _MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. HON. E. M. ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposit i on): Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf ~ti the people of the community of Conche, in my constituency of White Bay North. While I have not counted the number of names on the petition, it has been signed, I would think, by about 250, or 300 people, which is everyadult citizen of the community,aid the list of signatures include that of the parish priest, and the members of the council, and just about every citizen of that community.

The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is succinctly stated in the typed form of the petition, and perhaps, if I could read it, it would state the natter under petition. "WHEREAS we,the people of Conche, in the frovince of Newfoundland, in the Dominion of Canada, ~ive thanks to Her Majesty's various governments, have within our community social services which include excellent medical services, a good school and educational system, electrical power, acceptable television reception, long distance and local telephone exchanges, and a read which connects with the Trans Canada Highway; AND

WHEREAS the food and housing situations are up to standard for this area1 AND

WHEREAS the Conche Harbour, and surrouding areas are among the most scenically attractive on the northeast coast of Newfoundland and have the potential for development as a tourist resort by offering such seasonal attractions as deepmsea fishing, lake fishing, hunting, ice skating, ski-dooing and all, as well as a pollution free atmosphere, and a comfortable, and invigorating climate; AND

WHEREAS we, as a community, wish to have a first rate standard of living; AND

WHEREAS the well-being of our community is dependent upon the general health of its citizens; 414

March 4, 1975 Tape no. 130 Page 2 - mw AND

WHEREAS the drinking water in this community falls to a dangerously low level in winter, and all the wells have been examined by a public health inspector, and found polluted, eave one;

BE IT RESOLVED that we, the citizens of Conche, draw up a petition to Her Majesty's Government of Newfoundland, with a prayer that it work in providing this community of Conche with a water and sewer system. '· We, the undersigned, citizens of the community of Conche, in the Province of Newfoundland, in the Dominion of Canada, humbly pray that Her Majesty's Government of Newfoundlaad, hear our resolution, and take out to have a water and sewer system installed in this communtty of Conche. We pray for Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth, II, for all her ndnisters and legislators.

As Her Majesty's humble servants, it is our Eo1mden duty that we shall forever pray, signed in the year of Our Lord, 1974." It arrived, of course, before this session began. Mr. Speaker, in presenting this petition, I support it without any reservation or hesitation. Not only is it one of the few petitions I have heard presented in precisely the appropriate and correct form, as laid down in Beauchesne and in the authorities, but much more importantly, it is a petition which has to it the overwhelming merit of an unanswerable argument that these people must have water and sewer systems.

Now I know that there are many communities in Newfoundland that lack this amenity, and I have heard the Minister of Municipal Affairs talk of a plan involving $200 million or $100 million dollars, which, as I underatand it, is the estimated cost of providing water and sewer facilities 415

March 4, 1975 Tape no. 130 Page 3 - mw I understand that Uncle Ottawa is going to provide Clarenville, Grand Falls, here in St. John's - the minister may not know about this - will provide substantial assistance with the water and sewer systems, or the water systems, or whatever is involved in these communities. That leaves the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador free of that burden, and free to concentrate on providing water and sewer facilities to the smaller communities in our province. I can think of nothing, Mr.

Speaker, which should have a greater claim upon the resources, the financial resources of this province, than the subject matter of this petition. In presenting it to the House, I support it without any reservation, without any equivocation, and I do so in the hope that work will start this summer. When we get the magic budget, whenever it comes, I hope there will be money in it for Conche. Nothing would give me more pleasure. MR. SPB.IKER: The Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. B. PECKFORD· (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Mr.

Speaker, first of all, let me say, that I rise to support the petition so well phrased, and so ably presented by the Hon. Leader of the Opposition. I am quite aware of the problems Conche is experiencing, having visited that community on many occasions in the early 1960's and the late 19SO's, at a time in our history when it was seen fit not to provide any of that coastline with any of the basic amenities of life, at a time when it was ignored completely by the then administration.

It gives me great pleasure to support it now, and to indicate to the Leader of the Opposition, and to the rest of his colleagues on the other side of the House, that this petition,and the prayer of the petition will be given sympathetic consideration by the Department of Municipal Affairs in the compilation of its capital works budget this year, not only in Conche, of course, on that French shore, but in other places along that shore, like Croque, and the other smaller places, up the Fishot Islands.

We are quite aware of the problems that they experience, and you can take it from me that we will do everything possible to see that the people of Conche have these basic necessities. 416

March 4, 1975 Tape no. 130 Page 4 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Hermitage, MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speak.er, I have pleasure to present another petition on behalf of some of my constituents. This petition is from a number of people at Gaultois, 279 people have signed the petition.

The prayer of the petition is once again the need for a ferry service between Gaultois and Hermitage, and also to include the community of McCallum, The petition sets forth pretty clearly the need, and the feelings of the people at Gaultois, and so I shall read the wording, We, the undersigned, residents of Gaultois, petition for a ferry service between Gaultois, Hermitage, and Mccallum. Premier Moores made a firm coumitment to the people of Gaultois at the time of the Hermitage by-election that a ferry service would be provided by the summer of 1974.

There is no doubt that a desperate need exists for such a ferry service. This ferry would serve not only as an access to the provincJs road system, but also provide better medical services1t1, mail services, etc. At present Gaultois receives mail at regular intervals, or whenever weather permits. The doctor,who usually visits once a week, has been unable to visit Gaultois recently due to ice conditions. At present, he has to depend solely on the local draggers for transportation. Transportation to and from Hermitage depends mostly on the few privately oWBed boats at Gaultois.

This, too, is a risk for both passengers and boat owners as these small boats are ill-equipped for any type of passenger service. The present ice conditions prevent them from sailing. We feel that to this date this matter has been overlook3d, and we ask that it be given your immediate attention. As I said, Mr. Speaker, the petition is signed by literally every adult member of the Gaultois community, a total of 279 persons. In addition it has the support and the sanction of the town council at Gaultois. I have here a letter signed by the mayor, Mayor John R. Ingram, and by all six of the councillors.

The letter gives 417

Marc h ll, 1975 Tape no. 130 ?age 5 - mw some additional background which, I think, is pertinent to the prayer of the petition. In part, Mr. Speaker, the letter frDIIL Mr. Ingram and his ·councillors reads: We are sure that there is no need to stress the point that there is a dire need for such a service. At present we are without bank services, mail services, medical services, and transportation to and from Hermitage. Some of the proble111$ we have listed are on the petition, and they.say to me, as the member, we trust that you can point out the remaining problems.

The residents of this community are concerned with the negligence which the government have displayed in this situation. We feel that if air transportation can be provided to people of other communities around the province to compensate for the loss of their ferry services, then some solution can be found for us. If Premier Moores is a man of his word, then it is high time he took a good, hard look at our situation, and made the ferry a reality instead of a prol!lise. 418

1".arch 4, 1975 Tape 131 (Afternoon) PK - l Mr. Speaker, Mr. Ingram in his l~tter and the petitioners in their petition have set forth the matter pretty well. I have already spoken on this matter earlier in the session - a couple of days ago. I certainly heartily endorse the petition. I say that the need even here is understated. I believe the Premier and his colleagues are quite familiar with the need, having made a firm commitment on the point. I can only hope now, Mr.

Speaker, that the Premier or the Minister of Transportation will see fit to respond to the petition, which they did not choose to do last week when we presented a similar petition from the people of McCallum about the same subject. But I would hope and I would invite either the Premier or the minister or both to stand in the House and assure the House and the people of Gaultois and McCallum that they wjll indeed keep their commitment, albeit a year late,but keep their aommitment during the forthcoming season to the people of Gaultois and the people of Mccallum.

It is my great pleasure to support wholeheartedly the petition and request that it be placed on the table of the House for referral to the appropriate department. MR . SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. HON. J. G. ROUSSEAY (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATIONS): First of all, Mr. Speaker, if I may1 the question of air transport, of course, that could be a commerical operation over ~hich this department would have no jurisdiction. Of course, in the event of an emergency or a crisis down there. we would 1of course,provide any assistance we could on an emergency basis.

But respecting air transp~rt, it would purelv be a private enterprise that would lie in the hands of one of our three, I would guess, third-level carriers to institute proceedings with the Canadian Transport Commission to have such a service inaugurated. In respect to the petition it will certainly be given sympathetic consideration by the department. We have just received the one from the other place involved, a couple of days back. We will give it serious consideration, and as I said to the honourable member when 419

March 4, 1975 Tape 131 (Afternoon) PK - 2 he nosed the question tome, it is under consideration. As soon as we have a reply we will indicate to him just what our position is. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES ~- SPF.AKER: The Hon. Minister of Justice. "IR. T. HICKMAN: I table under the provisions of

Section 178.22 of the Criminal Code of Canada the first report covering the period July 1, 1974 to December 31, 1Q74. (That should confuse everybody). MR. SPEAKET:.: The Hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment): HON. G. DAWE: (MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT): I would like to table The Fvironmental Overview Study done on the Lower Churchill Power Project. AN HON. MEM"IIER: ~- DAWE: MR. ROBERTS: Do we get a copy of it, Mr. Speaker? One. We have one over here. They are in limited supply so we do not have a copy for everybody because it is a very limited edition. AN HON. 1'ID-IBER: 11R.

DAWE: AN HON. MB-IBER: NR. DAWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SPRAKER: ------- Inaudible. Pardon? Inaudible. It is tabled. Order. please! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN The Hon. Minister of Health. DR. A. ROVE (MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer the oral question asked in the House recently on the question of silicosis in Buchans. There have been a total of eleven cases documented at Buchans over the past nine years, since 1966. These cases have had a history Of oeoole ;•orking underground for periods exceeding twenty years.

The total number of miners at risk or exposed averages over 400 yearly. 1'1,o people of the eleven cases reported since 1966 are receiving one hundred per cent disability compensation and are retired. Two peoole who were receiving thirty-five and forty per cent 420

March 4, 1975 Tape 131 (Afternoon) PK - 3 disability,and since are now deceased,and their widows are receiving pension awards. One person was withdrawn from the mines and given another job and is receiving seventy-five per cent of a differential in wages. Six people are considered to have a minor degree of silicosis without any disability and they are not qualified for compensation, It would appear that most of these cases developed a lung pathology due to over~exposure to dust in the early years of mining when the silica content was higher than at present.

The Department of Mines and Energy states that the level of dust in the ~ines at the present time is low, with the silica content as low as one per cent,which I am informed does not indicate any serious health hazard. However, as a result of the Dyer Report, the Department of Mines and Energy is in the process of doing an expensive study of the dust in the mines, In addition, arrangements are being made to have pulmonary function tests performed on all miners, in addition to the regular x-ray examinations, one each year. There is no evidence to support any allegation of silicosis in the general population.

AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. DR. ROWE: You asked about Buchans. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other answers to questions for which notice has been given? ORAL QUESTIONS: MR, SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for St. Barbe North, MR. F, B, ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Fisheries, and it follows the ministerial statement that he just made. I was wondering if the minister could clarify, without taking a few slaps at Ottawa, if he could clarify just under whose jurisdiction community stages fall in this province?

Is it not a fact that community stages have fallen under the jurisdiction of the provincial government, whether or not they were built by the federal government or winter works projects or any other projects, or by the provincial government itself, because there appears to be 421

March 4, 1975 Tape 131 (Afternoon) PK - 4 some confusion there, and I think it needs to be clarified, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I tried to explain this situation the other day but I am glad to attempt to do it again. The position is, "Mr. Speaker, that the majority of the community stages now around this province were built by the Government of Canada. I believe the ones they built were built before 1967, for the most part.

Since that time there have been some built by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, and some renovated and improved by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. But certainly in the last several years the federal government have not had anything to do with community stages. In 1967 an agreement was prepared and signed by the honourable Aiden Maloney who was the then Minister of Fisheries of Fewfoundland, prepared in Ottawa and all agreed, then sent back to Ottawa for signature by the ~'inister of Fisheries of Canada.

That agreement orovided that Newfoundland would take over all the community stages, provided that the federal government agreed to pay seventy-five per cent of the cost of any major repairs, and nrovided that the community stages were nut in nroner shaoe as they were taken over 1 but that thereafter the federal government - ordinary repairs and so on the province would meet,and the upkeep and maintenance and so on - but any major repair~ would he met seventy-five ner cent federal and twenty-five percent nrovincial. Now for some reason that agreeMent was never executed by Ottawa.

Presumably the Treasury Board or somebody up there had some objection to it. It waR never "entered into. Therefore the sjtuat:lon since J.0 Fi7 with respect to co111I11unity stares has heen quite clouded. Now the Government of Newfoundland have had to Rpend money on what are in effect federal staf):es in some areas, either to renovate them hecause thev are becoming useless or they are in such had shane that someone had to spend some money on them. '3o v7 e have spent some l'IOney on stages built originally by the federal government in some areas.

The provincial government have builf some cornrnunitv stages in some areas, and those clearly we are 422

March 4, 1975 Tape 131 (Afternoon) PK - 5 responsible for. We have ack.nowledp:ed that and we have maintained them to see that they are in proper shape. The area of concern are the ones originally built by the federal government on ~,hich there is no argeement. Now about one year agn or two years ago, there was a study done by the federal and provincial governments together by ·several federal officials who visted every commurity stage in the province. They examined the shape they were in, how they were operated - was it by a local committee or a coummunity council 1 or who were they leased to or rented to.

A report was then done in an attempt to straighten out this whole situation. We do not want to accent all those community stages from the Government of Canada without first they are put in the proper shape so that they can he used, and secondly, hopefully so they will agree to assume seventy-five per cent of the major repairs as it becomes necessary in those facilities. A month ago I wrote the - within the last month, let us say in the last three or four weeks-I wrote the Minister of Fisheries, Mr.

LeBlanc a letter outlining this whole situation, enclosing copies of all or relevant correspondence, the suggested agreement of 1967 and the report that was done in 1973, asking him to use his best efforts to see if we can clear this situation up and get an agreement that is satisfactory to both governments so that the community stage situation would be settled, and money si,ent on upgrading all the ones that are here 1and doing some new ones in the areas where they are badly needed. Now I have had acknowledgement of that letter from him. I have also sent copies to Mr.

Jamieson, and presumably some time within the next few weeks as time permits we might be able to make some progress and resolve it, 423

March 4, 1975 Tape No. 132 NM - 1 so a great deal of them are federal. A smaller number are clearly provincial. Then you get in a confused area where the province has had to spend money on a federal facility because they will not spend it1or a LIP group got a grant and they decided to do work on a community stage and so on. So that generally describes the situation. Now I am making strenuous efforts to have it all regularized and get some agreement within the next couple of months and I am sure Mr. LeBlanc will want to do the same. :!-ffi.. ROWE: Supplementary, Mr.

Speaker; therefore the announcement that the Minister of Fisheries made with respect to the four or five community stages and the renovations thereof for St. Barbe North is contingent upon this agreement being signed with the federal government 1and the issue is still clouded; is that correct? MR. CROSBIE: Yes. I have pointed out where the community stages are that should be upgraded, and one area where it should have a community stage is Bartlett's Harbour. There are other facilities on the Coast of Labrador. This issue really needs to be settled before all that work is done.

So we are hopeful that this will be settled. But apart from settling the whole general issue, we will be asking the federal government to assist us in those particular areas in any event,and apart from the Department of Fisheries we are also making a submission to DREE on a food herring programme for the province which would include monies to cover that area, Labrador South, St. Barbe North and a chill holding facility and so on is part of this herring programme. So these things are all being put forward and are necessary if this is to be a success. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy; in view of the fact that a number of my constituents, Sir, are wondering about the progress of the Daniel's Harbour mine site,and any work associated with it once it poes into production, could the minister indicate whether it is still on schedule,to go into production ;in the month of April. Secondly.whether tenders have been called for the 424

March 4, 1975 Tape No. 132 NM - 2 trucking of the ore from Daniel's Harbour to Hawkes Bay,and if so when were these tenders called and have they been awarded and to whom were they awarded or whether any agreements have been entered into for the trucking of the ore from Daniel's Harbour to Hawkes Bay? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, on the first point, I do not have any up-to-date information.

The latest information I had was that this mine was proceeding on very good terms to completion and that it should be in operation by April but that was approximately a month ago,the last information I had on that point. I will check for the honourable member and give him whatever additional information we can get. On the second point, I want to point out that of course government would not be involved in obtaining contracts, bringing about contracts,for the trucking of ore from the Daniel's Harbour mine. This is private enterprise and the company would be involved in making their own trucking contracts.

I have no information on whether or not tenders will be called by the company, That will be up to the company. I am not aware of any contracts having been awarded, Mr. Speaker, at this time and I will try and get information on this point from the company officials as well for the honourable member. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I was going to ask the minister if he would undertake to find out from the companies involved whether 1 number one 1any agreements had been entered into up to this point, and whether or not they intend to call tenders themselves . for the trucking of the ore. MR. BARRY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I will undertake to check with the company but I should point out that the company will be under no obligation to answer. There is a limit as to how far you can go into 425

March 4, 1975 Tape NO. 132 NM - 3 the internal operations of any corporation and we will not insist upon the company revealing its policy with respect to the awarding of this contract anymore than any other contract. We do,of course 1expec.t them to make available to residents of the province any business opportunities that arise in the operation of the mine. They are aware of this and we will definitely check with them 1but as I say they are under no obligation to throw open the internal workings of their corporation for us, anymore than any other private enterprise in the province is. MR.

NEARY: Supplementary question, would the minister indicate if his department or the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations have received any complaints ·from the people in the area about the hiring practices and procedures of the mine operators in Daniel's Harbour? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have not received a single complaint. I am not aware of any other department. ~. SPEAKER: Tre honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. ~1AYNAAD: Mr.

Speaker, I have not from the departmental point of view or as the ~.H.A. for the area - I have not received any complaints as to the hiring practices in the Daniel's Harbour area. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, supplementary, is the Minister of Manpower aware that Mr. Marshall, M.P., is making quite a fuss about this in Ottawa, the hiring practices of this company in Daniel's Harbour, with reference to local people in the area? MR. MAYNARD: I have not seen any statements by Mr. Marshall but 1 was talking to him about two or three days av.o, Mr.

Speaker, and we discussed the Daniel's Harbour thing,and he did not mention it to me. To the best of my knowledge the employees of Daniel's Harbour are being hired through the Canada Manpower Centre, Corner Brook. My department has become involved in the training programme, on the job training programme, trying to set it up with the company,but any of the constituents who have asked me to refer them to the mining 426

March 4, 1975 Tape No. 132 NM - 4 operation for a job, I found that those constituents have been given every coaaideration and I have not heard of any trouble so far. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the - MR. NEARY: Shot down again by the Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: Are you finished? MR. NEARY: No, I was not finished, MR. SIMMONS: Do you want to proceed with that one? MR, NEARY: No. Go ahead. Carry on. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Rural Development. Oh, the Minister of Rural Development is not here.

Anybody know whether he is still a member of the House? I never can seem to catch him to ask him a question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: He leaves before the question period starts. I have a question, Mr.

Speaker, for the Minister of Transportation, In view of the rather serious situation which now exists because of the fact that the Harbour Breton Road has been closed since yesterday, a number of thousands of people depending on that road in Fortune Bay and on the Connaigre Peninsula, I understand that one of the problems is the lack of equipment to do the job, I am wondering if the minister would bring us up-to-date on the situation and indicate what his department has done to get additional equjpment into the area? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.

ROUSSEAU: I do not have the details but I can assure you that the road is not open and I have not been told exactly what the situation is, but whatever can be done is being done and any additional equipment that is necessary will be hired to get the road open as soon as possible. Of course we have to understand 427

March 4, 1975 Tape No. 132 that at this time in the year now we are going to have some problem with the roads, with the thaw out and so on and so forth. We will try and get the thing passable as soon as possible. I can say that without even having to check with the officials of the department. NM - 5 MR. SIMM.ONS: Supplementary, I have been talking to some of the minister's officials in the area and I know there is a need for additional equipment. Would the minister undertake to determine whether the equipme~t can be moved in there and report either to me privately or to the House1 MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, I will.

I will check and give the member it by tomorrow. MR. SIMMONS; Thank you. I have a further question for the Minister of Transportation on another subject. In responding to the petition concerning the ferry the minister made references to air seTVices, Would the minister indicate whether government would agree to subsidize an air service to Gaultois at such times when it is not possible to get from Hermitage to Gaultois because of weather or ice conditions? MR. ROUSSEAU: That is an anticipatory question.

I do not know, first of all whether a commercial operator - how is that for a word? - whether a commercial operator would be granted that licence indeed by the CTC. And if it then was granted - one of the third level carriers) for example,made application and it was granted - that would have to then ~n under the policy that we have in respect to subsidies of third level carriers. And if it came within the umbrella of that subsidy something would be done, If it did not, no. But the problem is of course and the _ first thin~ that is r,oing to happen is an application made for that service.

One of the first things that the third level carrier, any carrier will do in applying for a route under the CTC, will suggest that it is economically viable. If he does not suggest that it is economically viable then of course we woul rl point that out to the CTC ourselves, And we would not want an 428

March 4, 1975 Tape NO . 133 NN - 6 air carrier to go in and apply for a route no matter where it is and say it is economically viable and as soon as the route was granted to turn around and ask for a subs idy f or it . MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, now lam not talking about a regularly scheduled air service, l am talking about an emergency servi ce, Mr. Speaker . Perhaps I could rephrase the question.

In the event that an emergency service could be established throu~h a cotmnercial carrier, would the minister indicate whether government would subsidi .ze that on an emergency basis when ice conditions would prevent transportation between Hermitage and Gaultois over the water. MR. SPEAKER: The question raised is a hypothetical one by the honour able member and as such is out of order. MR, SIMMONS: Tell that to the people in Gaul to is . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island. 429

~arch 4, 1975. Tape 133 RH - 1 MR. NEARY: I would like to direct a question, Sir, to the Minister of Social Services. Would the minister care to indicate to the House why his department found it necessary, Sir, to withdraw financial assistance from the United Church Children's Home, thus forcing the Children's Home to close. HR. SPEAICE"R: The honourable !1inister of Social Services. HON. A . MURPHY : l·'r. Speaker, if I may. This subject has been a matter of great discussion for a number of weeks and months.

Unfortunately, I hear, and I have not been able to establish yet, that one of the radio stations had the gall,against the lnw1to interview some children in that home who are wards of our Director of Child Welfare. t-!R. ROBERTS: It was on CBC this morning. MR. MURPHY: I beg your pardon? MR. ROBERTS: It was CBC. I heard it. l!R. MURPHY: Was it? Someone phoned r.te on it. HR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. MURPHY: Well, whether it is the enc or any station, they are not permitte<l to break the law, whatever, what advertising. That is my honourable friends - you know.

But I did issue a statement, Sir, and I just - perhaps in answer to the question, I will read it into the record of the TTouse now. "By joint agreement between the Department of Social Services and the Board of the United Church Children's !Tome on Hamilton Avenue, that hoMe will close officially on !•arch 31, 197 5. Permanent placement plans have already been made for these children presently in the home and the children have been informed individually of the plans for them. The present United Church Children's Home evolved from a combined orphanage and receivin g home.

Receiving homes are i n tended for the temporary care of children while permanent plans are then being made. 11 The Department of Social Services no longer has need of an institution the size of the U nited Church Children's Home for the temporary care of chil dren. Other arrangements are nou available to the department. The 430

March 4, 1975. Tape 133 RH - 2 department is greatly indebted to the United Church Children's Home for the service rendered during the many years in which the church and the department have been in partnership in the field of child care. We are glad that this partnership will continue in the future as the United Church embarks upon a new and broader spectrum of social services within II the City of St. John's. They have opened now a group home on Patrick Street. I think something like eight of the nineteen children will be going there.

The great majority of children will be returning to their own homes with relatives, so on and so forth. There will be two that will be placed for adoption. So that is to the satisfaction of my Department of Child Welfare. We think it is far better for children to be restored either to their own homes or to relatives and to have them adopted instead of being in foster homes. So, Mr. Speaker, that is the answer to the question. I think that should clue the thing up now unless someone else wants to go up and inter­ view these children-six, seven, eight and nine years old - and ask them all about the whole series.

MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Would the minister care to indicate to the House on the basis of that report, who made the report? Was there somebody commissioned to do a study of the United Church Home? If so, would the minister be prepared to table the report in the House? What was the decision based on? Was it a written report, oral report? What kind of report did the minister get that led him to the conclusion that he should close this home? MR. MURPHY: Not the Department of Highways, Sir. I take my advice from the Department of Child Welfare, the Director down there, Mr.

Simms, who I think has done a tremendous job. I can only trust to my senior officials who are professional people, Sir, and if I cannot accept their advice-perhaps the honourable Member for Bell Island would himself and perhaps Justice Mifflin may like to do an enquiry on this home if he would like to - but basically that is the only source of advice. If there are 431

Harch 4, 1975 . Tape 133 RH - 3 any other measures that should be taken)anrl perhaps he could contact the United Church Home which is a private institution under Reverend B.B. Snow and ask them)because they only look after the children for us. It is not a government home. We only place children there, Sir, and pay them for the service. So it is a private home operated by the United Church and possibly for further information Reverend B.B. Snow may be contacted. "!R. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question: 1/ould the minister care to clarify whether a grant that was made of $10,000 from the Federal Department of National Health and Welfare, I think it was, whether that $10,000 was to operate United Church Children's Home or was it granted to a group of individuals or an individual to do some research in connection with the Home? Is the minister aware of that grant of $10,000? MR. MURPHY: Well, - MR. NEARY: Perhaps the minister might want to take it under advisement. MR.

MURPHY: I believe this was put into the Home for the purchase of the group home on Patrick Street which was formally the Home for Retarded Children. I am not quite sure on the thing now, but I will get it if the member wants to table the question. I will certainly get it answered. There is nothing to hide on it. :-!R. NEARY : !tr. Speaker, a supplementary, and this will be my final nuestion on this, Sir. Can the minister indicate to the House whether or not a brewery nearby that home is seeking to expand and looking for parking space and this was the prime reason for closing that home?

Does the minister care to confirm or deny that statement? lffi. HURPHY: I bef( your rardon! Your mean that the United Church 1Reverend B .B. Snow1 yielded to have these children put out so that he could rent to a brewery - It is not my home, I say. It is a private home operated by the United Church - is that what the member indicates? ?·'R. NEARY: ~lo, it is the minister who yielded to pressure. ! 'R. !1\JR.PHY: The minister has nothinp . whatever to do with that any more than he has to do with Mount Cashel or he had to do with Belvedere or any pl.ace else.

It is a private home and I would like to have that question 432

March 4, 1975. Tape 133 RH - 4 put on the record, that the Member for Bell Island has insinuated, Sir - MR, NEARY: The minister withdrew the grant. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MURPHY: That the United Church Orphanage are putting these children on the streets so that they can get money from a brewery. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: The minister withdrew the grant. MB.. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Give them back their grant and they will continue to operate . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. It is the minister who is yielding to pressure, not the United Church Home, MR.

NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. MURPHY: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, if I could ask a question of the - Inaudible. Order, please! MR. ROBERTS : - Of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. The Newfoundland Air Transit Limited at Corner Brook have made application to the minister under the policy - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: If the Minister of Social Services is finished, may I proceed, Sir.

The Newfoundland Air Transit Limited at Corner Brook,or Pasadena)have made application to the minister under the policy for a subsidy to enable them to provide an air service between Deer Lake, Harbour Deep, St. Julien's and Flowers Cove. I wonder if the minister has as yet arrived at a decision as to whether or not that subsidy will be granted, that application will be granted? If so, what is the decision, please? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and COIIDllunications. HON. J.G. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, yes, we have received that request.

It has been considered by the department and is now put before government. A decision has been made. I am unable to communicate it at this time. But 433

lfarch 4, 1975. Tape 133 PJJ - 5 as soon as a decision is made by government, I will certainly do so. }!R. ROBERTS: A supplementary: I understood the minister to say that a decision has not been made, that his department has considered the matter and has referred it to, presumably, the Treasury Board. MR. ROUSSEAl': There is an expenditure of funds involved. MR. ROBERTS: Well, obviously, there is an expenditure. So, it is hefore Treasury Board? Is that - I understand that is where it is in the governmental mill. !-!R. ROUSSEAU: Right, yes. MR.

ROBERTS: Could the minister undertake to try to get an answer as quickly as possible because the winter is going and if we clo not get a decision quicr--1.y, there will not be any need for a winter air service. What we will need is a summer air service then. MR. ROUSSEAC: We had an original request from a number of air lines lines and we asked for further substantiation from 1'lewfoundland and Labrador Air Transport because, as I suggested originally a few minutes ago, when air lines apply for these services they suggest that they are economically viable.

In order for them to prove that it is not we have to look at their books and we have to have substantiation. We are dealing with the taxpayers money. He asked for further substantiatign ancl that has been the cause of the delay. He now have the substantiation and hopefully within a week or two at the most, we should have an answer, probably before. !!R. SPEAKER: The honourable Nember for Twillin8ate. HR. ll.W.C. GILLETTE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the honourable the Minister of Fisheries.

It has to do with the several marine complexes presently under construction, but I am particularly interested in the one at nurre11 1naturally. I am wonderinf, if the minister can tell the House what his department plans to do after they are completed as far as t he management is concerned? Who will manage them? 'IJL SPEAKER: The honourable l1inister of Fisheries. ----- '•m. CROSBIE: Hell, Mr. Speaker, t he plan is that once the marine service centres are complf>ted, they will be managed by the Department of Fisheries, under the supervision of the Department of Fisheries and they will have to 434

March 4, 1975 . Tape 133 RH - 6 hire necessary people to do that. I do not know how many are required at each place, but there will be some type of person, responsible person, to look after the , generally in the area and I do not know how many others are required. But they will be operated directly by the Department of Fisheries. :MIL GILLETTE: Mr. Speaker, in ot her words, the personnel will be local personnel . They will not be - MR. CROSBIE: If they are the ones who are best suited when they appl y . There will be advertisements for the j ob. MR. GILLETTE: MR . CROSBIE: It will not he a St.

John's company, in other words. The Department of Fisheries sends out ads everywhere. They do not even tell rne where they are sending them. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Inaudible . Order, please! MR.. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, most likely it would be local people. I mean) that is what we prefer because they already have their homes there and they are living in the area, But I would imagine that)and this has not been gone into in any detail, but the senior overall person, there will have to be advertisements, but otherwise 435 •·

March 4, 1975 Tape 134 certainly the personnel will be local. It may be that for the person who is in general charge we may have to put it through the Public Service Commission. MR . S1'EAKER: Order, please! The Chair recognizes the honourable member for St. Barbe North. If the honourable member for Twillingate has a supplementary question - HR. F. ROWE : If it is a supplementary, I yield, Mr. Speaker . MR. GILLETT: A supplemen.tary, yes. I would like a clarification. Will it or will it not be a St. John's based firm managing the complexes even though they do hire local persons for personnel? MR.

CROSBIE: Oh, I see what you are getting at. Oh, you better have an eagle eye on this one. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: That great digger. Hr. Speaker, while these centers are being completed, there will be project managers or project management, something or other - I cannot remember their exact name - they are supervising the construction and completing them, and they are going to manage them for us during this year and then turn them over to us, but IB-1 any personnel they hire .,and so on., have to be hired for the deparbnent. They will be hiring for the department, not hiring themselves.

They are going to supervise these things generally during this period while we get them all into operation but the personnel to be hired are to be hired for the province. We will have to approve the personnel . They will be employees of the department, not of theirs. I will expect that they all will he local people, except we may have to advertise the senior position. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education.

I wonder if the minister could indicate to the honourable House what prognss is being made for the Offshore Manpower Needs Conference that was promised in the 1973 speech. They were going to have a conference in the spring of 1973 and to continue on with other regular conferences thereafter. I wonder 436

March 4, 1975 Tape 134 IB-2 if the minister could give some indication of the progress being made with respect to that. HON. G. OTTENHEIMER (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): is very favourable. Mr. Speaker, progress MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the honourable member for Hermitage and that concludes the thirty minutes for the question period. MR. SIMMONS: Mr, Speaker, a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture as soon as I can get his ear.

I wonder if he would indicate to the House whether or not he has had an opportunity to check into the question which I raised two or three days ago and if he would be prepared to give an answer now. HON. E. MAYNARD (MINISTER OF FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE): Mr. Speaker, I had overlooked doing it before. I have checked with my officials concerning permits for cutting wood in the Bay D' Espoir area. There have been some sections of wood set aside for the Ralland Forest Products which we anticipate will be coming on stream at the large mill sometime this spring providing a fair amount of work.

There has been an undertaking given to other people in the area, that we will look after their needs as well, MR. SIMMONS: This undertaking to provide alternate limits, has this been communicated to the sawmillers in the area or not? MR. MAYNARD: It is my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that it has been communicated to the Development Association and also to the individuals concerned. We have also gone so far as to tell the people that in the event that some assistance might be needed in terms of assisting in the construction of access roads and so on, we will also help them there. MR.

SPEAKER: I will permit the honourable member one other supplementary, then that will be the end of the question period. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. I wonder would the minister undertake to check whether or not this information has been relayed to the saWMiller-: and the other people who have been cutting wood for the sawmills because there is a fair amount of confusion, Mr. Speaker, and it would appear 437

March 4, 1975 TApe 134 IB-3 to me that they do not have this information or this understanding very clearly. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Order 3 is the second reading of a Bill, "An Act Respecting The Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro-Electric Corporation." I think the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications adjourned the debate last day. MR. ROUSSEAU: I had a few words to say last night, Mr. Speaker, about five minutes, I believe. I would like to say a few more things today if I may. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HR . ROUSSEAU: Thank you .

I have the approval of the honourable Minister of Justice promising me he will not tell me to shut up for forty minutes. The bill itself,of course,is one that is quite important. I will leave the discussion of the actual contents of that bill to those who are more knowledgeful of the details of it. I am sure the honourable the Minister of Mines and Energy will reply to the questions concerning the bill and the Minister of Fisheries when they have the opportunity to talk on this debate and the Minister of Mines and Energy has an opportunity to clue up.

The thing that is of concern to me is the Lower Churchill development. I think I would like to address myself for a few moments on that particular aspect of the bill. I think we have agreed already that the Lower Churchill question would be Okay to discuss under the aegis of this bill. Last night I mentioned the question of the benefits that would accrue from the development of the Lower Churchill.

I have mentioned it in the House on a number of occasions prior to this, and I would like to mention it again, if I may, so that it will be once again put on record, first of all that any benefits that accrue as a result of the development of the Lower Churchill should accrue first to Labrador, then to the island part of the province and then to elsewhere in the country or outside the country - it does not much matter once we have our full potential use 438

March 4,1975 Tape 134 here in Labrador and here on the island part of the province. I suggested also that any arrangements that are made to sell power outside the province,should such be decided, that it should be done on a short term basis and not on a long term basis as has been done on the Upper Churchill.

One would also hope that Labrador would benefit from spin-off industry as a IB-4 result of the availability of power almost at its source in Eastern Labrador or Western Labrador or Central Labrador, that the power that would be available to them would create industry there that the government would use its best efforts to persuade any prospective companies that would like to settle in the province to try the lay of the land in Labrador, and power available there, one would hope that the arguments for such an area's development would be much easier to sell.

So, that being the case, I would like to talk for a moment, if I may, on employment. One of the most frustrating things for someboi.y who has lived in Labrador for twelve years is to try and explain to the people on the island part of the province the frustration that people in Labrador feel. I am going to mention two, if I may; the Labrador Liner Board Mill and the oil refinery at Come By Chance. I am talking here, Mr. Speaker, on employment. I want to give a few examples just how we do feel.

There are a number of people in Labrador-not from Labrador 1 they are from the island part of the province - who, if you ask them where home is, their home is in Arnolds Cove or in Corner Brook or in St. Barbe or what have you. A lot of them are not from Labrador. In Western Labrador I am speaking about now, not in the remaining part of Labrador. A lot of them would like to have the opportunity to come back to their island home and work.

I can say that there were a nUD1ber of occasions when people from Labrador had applications in to be interviewed for jobs at the Labrador Linerboard mill and were not even granted interviews; people who were tradesme~,who must have been needed at the Labrador Linerboard site since everybody is of one accord in the fact that we do not have an 439

March 4, 1975 Tape 134 IB-5 abundance of tradesmen in this province. Okay, it was accepted, not liked but accepted. Then of course at the Come By Chance develo pment the oil refinery, the same thing happened . I tried for a year and a half to get three people, three tradesmen hired and I did not even r,et an acknowledgement letter for them, to get a job at Come By Chance Refinery. Again, it is local. They are going to hire local people first . Okay, the people in Labrador, in Labrador West especially' had to accept that.

The same happened out at the Labrador Linerboard KU 1 operation to local Bay St .Geot:Re area people, or peop le who were from there ~and had moved away. Good, Sir, we accepted that. Now, the questi~n comes of employment on the Lower Churchill. There can be no doubt in my mind, as a matter of principle, as I said previously tn the House, that the first opportunity for employment should go to the people in the area of Labrador , especially 440

March 4, 1975 Tape no. 135 Page 1 - mw in those jobs, which are classified as labour, non-sKilled. Now there are a lot of people in Labrador who are unskilled, and these labourers could very well be put to work on the Lower Churchill, with some priority or some preference. Now when we hear the term "the rape of Labrador''coming as a result of the Lower Churchill, this is the type of thing we are talking about. If the jobs at the Lower Churchill are not beneficial to the people of Labrador, then that iswhat they mean by Labrador being raped as a result of the development of it.

I can say 1 gentlemen 1 in this House of Assembly that the people of Labrador will not accept not being given some preference or priority in respect to jobs created as a result of the Lower Churchill. Now, if they are not qualified, they do not expect to have the trade jobs. If they are qualifieci, they expect, at least, equal footing. In the labour field, we think, they should be given a preference.

Now one looks at the figures for the Lower Churchill­ we are talking about the Lower Churchill, but we went two or three times around, four tillles around; we went to Wabush, we went to I.O.C. the expansion of I.O.C. in the Upper Churchill- and the most difficult feat that a man could try and perform in his life is trying to get some statistics on the number of Newfoundlanders versus non-Newfoundlanders at any of these sites. I am still not satisfied that I received accurate figures from the Upper Churchill. I am not satisfied, nor will anybody convince me that the figures I received are correct.

At one point the peak "'­ was eighty-three per cent Newfoundlanders. I do not know whether they were referring to the total work force, or just to the manual labour V on the site. There are a number of ways. As Disraeli once 'said, "There are lies, damn lies and statistics." One can easily be confused by statistics. I would like to, unequivocally, state that I think that Newfoundlanders and Labradorians should be given the first opportunity 441

March 4, 1975 Tape no. 135 Page 2 - 111W to work on the Lower Churchill, and especially in the jobs that are non-skilled,that the opportunity should be open with a priority and a preference first to the people of Labrador, that is their area, the same as the people in Labrador lived in the Bay St.Geor~e area for the Labrador Linerboard Mill,and for the Come By Chance area for the second oil refinery.

Furthermore, it would be my wish that government would have a representative on the site so that any charges of discrimination, or any charges of a lack of job opportunities, or any charges of discrimination in respect to our own provincial people's employment, would be looked into right away.

There is no question in my mind that this would alleviate a lot of the troubles :md stresses and strains that accompany the Upper Churchill development and other developments around the province, not so much here on the island part, we have had some influx from the mainland, but especially up in the western part of Labrador. I would think that such an individual would be necessary to allay the ·fears of people up there to have somebody to whom they could make representations in respect to job opportunities that are not being given to Newfoundlanders. I feel very strongly about that.

I think it is about the only way that the situation can be met in such a way that the problems that existed in other similar projects would not develop. For example, during the final construction phase of the Come By Chance refinery I think there were a few outbreaks of labour problems there, but during the time I took over as Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, the Hon.

Premier indicated that we should have somebody on site at Come By Chance and I think as a result of the appointment of an individual down there on site that many of the problems that could have arisen did not arise because there was somebody down there to meet the problems immediately when they developed. I think this certainly bears consideration by the minister responsible. I am sure he will give it every consideration. 4.41? "Tl..

March 4, 1975 Tape no. 135 Page 3 - mw Of course, also the question of supplies and materials, where possible, should come from the province. I know it is difficult. There is a short shipping season up north, six to eight months of water-free ports on the eastern coast of Labrador, I can indicate first hand the problems there are of getting supplies from the island part of the province, or from the rest of Labrador, to that area.

I think,where possible, there should certainly be preference given to those companies which are operating within our own province, and that any preference that is normally given to companies which operate in our own province, in any bids and tender calls, should also be extended to the companies in this situation. The question of the tunnel, of course, I heartily endorse.

I would think that it would .. be rather difficult to build a tuunel, and then have to think in five, or six, or ten years time, that we should have a tunnel for vehicular traffic, be it a train, or be it merely a tunnel that vehicles would be able to negotiate themselves, and that the cost would then become prohibitive.

I would like to be convinced that a tunnel to provide transportation across for vehicular traffic is not an economically viable situation, I certainly would like to see one, or I would like to see the plan in for it, and .hopefully, if we could not have a tunnel at this point in time, at least to have the apparatus that will be built, built in such a way that at some point in the very near future, before the costs spiral, that such a situation could be brought to fruition. There was mention of the Trans-Labrador Highway, by the way. Of course, we are working on that.

There has been some suggestion that it is either one or the other, I do not know, I read from the federal people that probably the development of the Lower Churchill will enhance the possibility of the completion of the Trans-Labrador Highway. Certainly, we intend to push forth. We now have the report in, and we have sent a copy,with our problems, to the Government of Quebec, and they have sent us a copy of theirs, and we have both written Mr. Marchand, the Minister of Transport, in an effort to meet wich 443

March 4, 1975 Tape no. 135 Page 4 - mw him at the officials level to discuss this question. We certainly intend to push this. The question of environment is a very important one, I think. I would have to say, for my part, that I am sure that the question will be dealt with by this government, and that there will not be a complete hell on earth made in that area, that whatever is done to complete the project. will be rectified from an environment point of view. I know my colleague, the Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment, will see to that.

The only question that I would like to talk about, if I may for a moment on the bill, and I read this again as the layman reads it, is the question of the injunctions and so on and so forth, in respect to actions against the company, are such that it reads, "only after the power is on stream." Now I may be wrong. I would hope that one of the honourable and most learned members of the House might enlighten us on this. My understanding, from a layman's point of view in reading the bill, would be that it refers to that only after the power has been put on stream.

These are just a few of the points that 1 wanted to raise in respect to it. I have stood up in the House, and I say it again, and I say it here, that the people of Labrador, and the people of the island part of the province, are not going to accept loss of jobs to non-Newfoundlanders on the Lower Churchill. They are not going to do it. I am certainly going to support them in their efforts not to do it, as I know this government will do. That is a point that the people should not ask in the future. It is set. It is government's policy. Newfoundlanders, where they are qualified, will be hired first.

Where there is no qualification necessary, there is no question, there is no need to see one labourer from the Province of Quebec, or any other province of Canada on the Lower Churchill site, not one labourer. Now there may be, and we do not want to shut the doors, of course, either, to tradesmen where we do not have enough in this province - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). 444

March 4, 1975 Tape no . 135 Page 5 - mw MR. ROUSSEAU': Well , I think the burden of proof must lie wit h the company to show that they cannot hi.re in this province.

One thin g , since some day we will have a chance co talk about Canada Manpower, and their contribution to Labrador, which I would like to some time, in the future debate in the House - there is no question in my mind that not one labourer, not one unskilled tradesman - we have built tbe Upper Churchill, we have the people here on cbe island, and I have phone calls daily from people who have been on the Upper Churchill just waiting to try and secure employment on the Lower Churchill, ready to go back.

A lot of them are not skilled tradesmen, but they know a development of this nature - I am certain to have something to offer in the development of that project. With regard co employment, supplies, and materials, certainly Newfoundland should be first, the same as within the country, of course. When we are talking about international, it should be Canada first. I stand for that. Th.is government stands for that.

In speaking to this bill, I wanted to make those poi.nts evident again . 1 had ·a difference of opinion at one point - I am sorry my friend from Labrador North is not here today - on t.he ques tion of where the power should go. I think he was all for sending it down to Quebec . 445

March 4, 1975 Tape 136 But I think that any province who receives that will - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. IB-1 MR. ROUSSEAU: No , I am not being political. I think at one point in time he did mention that. hot under the collar. We talked here one night. I remember getting AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Any surplus. MR . ROUSSEAU: Oh, any surplus, okay. With any surplus, we agree on that then 1if it is surplus. But Labrador first and the island and then the rest of Canada or whoever may need it, any surplus power would be done but it would be done on a short term basis.

So, I thank you for giving me the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to probably not talk to the bill itself, but I think the points that we mentioned are important, and certainly I would like to get them on as a matter of record as to my personal feelings on this topic. Thank you. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I too would like to have a few words on this bill.

As I understand it, this is a bill that would allow this Hydro Corporation which is to be created to be a successor to the Power Connnission and also, if I am correct, the sort of parent corporation to CFLCo and any other public corporation that is dealing with power in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. So that I think it would be appropriate in the course of my remarks, Mr. Speaker, to probably deal generally, as I notice other speakers have done, with the concept of the Lower Churchill. Then, of course, I would like to make specific references to some parts of the bill itself.

Now, I think anyone in Newfoundland, any thoughtful person, any person concerned with the welfare of this province, would hope and pray and wish very strongly that this province can get the Lower Churchill, the Gull Island site developed. I do not think there is any question about that. I do not think anybody can knock that concept, particularly in the climate of the last year or two when we have been hit with the concept,which we should have realized a long time ago and did not, that the world's energy resources are not 446

March 4, 1975 Tape 136 IB-2 inexhaustible, that the old resources particularly are not inexhaustible artd are going to get more and more and more expensive, I suspect, during our lifetimes, that the sources of energy, such as coal I though much more plentiful,are going to get, nonetheless, more expensive because it is going to cost more to get people to extract it. So that everywhere we look anything that is going to be available to us as a civilized people for fuel is going to be more expensive even when it is available.

I am afraid looking ahead to the next fifty or sixty years, perhaps beyond the lifetime of most of us, these fuels are not going to be available. Therefore something like electricity 1which we can generate not by the use of other fuels such as coal or oil, but by the use of water power, anything like this is, in my view, a top priority and has to be developed. If we look at the Lower Churchill we must say to oarselves, this resource must be developed. It is a pity that it could not have been developed before. A start has been made with the Upper Churchill. It must now be developed.

If it is not going to be developed now in our time, it is going to have to be developed by people in the future because no way can we face the next fifty years and say to ourselves, that particular source of energy is going to lie untapped.

Now, having said that on the principle of developing the Lower Churchill there are a few questions 1of course~that I would ask of the minister with regard to the actual practical mechanics of doing so because, of course, these things are more in the particular knowledge of members of the government, members of the executive council 1and1 of courselparticularly the minister himself, than they would be in the day to day knowledge of private members such as I. I had the opportunity of looking at volume one last night of the

summary of the Teshmont and H. Zinder Associates Incorporated Study. I cannot say for a moment that I have digested it, but certain things emerge. As I say, they leave me with one or two questions which I would address to the minister and which 1 no doubt~he will deal with later on in his remarks. On the question of the technical feasibility of developing 447

March 4, 1975 Tape 136 IB-3 Gull Island, I gather from this study there does not seem to be any doubt at all. It is technically feasible and possible. Of course, it is going to cost money to do it, but we know that.

I gather from the study that it is going to cost - when they did the study 1 which I believe was in the late fall of 1973 and the early winter of 1974, in round figures I think it was going to cost something like $500 million or close to that to do the development of the Gull Island site itself,and then the transmission facilities, I think, were going to cost slightly more, if I am not mistaken, about the same 1or slightly more. The whole thing, I think, when they did their study, as I read it, was going to cost $1 billion, one hundred odd million.

Now, that study, I believe was finished in the winter or early spring of 1974. I believe that the figures that they came up with were predicated on a start being made mid-1974- the letting of contracts as I recall in it somewhere a graph, and a series of times beginning with the letting of preliminary contracts mid-1974 - and let right through the following twelve or fourteen months until the middle of 1975 when I think the final contract would be let. The figure then would be something of the order of $1,200,000,000, some $150 million or $200 million. Now, obviously these contracts have not yet been let.

I do not know but I should imagine common sense would tell us that it has something to do with the financing of a project of this magnitude. Now, I think that when you come to the question of financing this one does not have to be an expert to kriow that the whole Western World is in a monetary crisis. The crisis did not start here in Newfoundland. It has not reached its maximum here in Newfoundland. It is affecting the whole Western World, every country in the We.stern World 1and it goes beyond the Western World for all I know. What has emerged - I think the seeds of this were there all the time, Mr. Speaker.

I think the seeds that were there have been enlarged upon and brought into sharp focus by the oil crisis. There is no question about the problem and what it has meant, and particularly the oil crisis has brought this to the fore, is that, as somebody put it, 448

March 4, 1975 Tape 136 somebody that I read, you have a vast river of dollars flowing out of the countries of the Western World into the oil rich countries of the Middle East. Now, this is an undeniable fact. The price of a barrel of oil has increased, I do not know, what? Four or five fold? Whatever it is, it varies from Venezuela to Kuwait to where have you.

The fact is that this tremendous increase has meantloil being what it is to our economy, a vast river of dollars flowing IB-4 into the Middle East and to other countries such as Venezuela, perhaps, who knows, to Alberta for that matter, but that is what has happened.

Now, when I ask myself, as a layman, unfamiliar with all these things, how are we going to finance the Lower Churchill, I am bound to say to myself,with all that money going out of regular investment sources, with all that money going into the Middle East, it obviously has to be more difficult to finance any major project in the Western World, not only Newfoundland but elsewhere in Canada, in the United States, in England, in Italy, in all of these countries 1 because money which would otherwise be available for long term projects in the Western World is obviously going into the Middle East.

Now, that is not to say that a project like the Lower Churchill> if it is economically sound and viable, cannot be financed. I think and I hope that it can be financed. I am sure it can be. The only thing I would say is it is going to be more difficult to finance it and it is going to take longer to arrange the appropriate financing.

I suspect that this is part of the reason that the, not the deadlines but the suggested times in the Zinder and Teshmont Study could not be met because it is more difficult to finance this project than anybody in Newfoundland 1 or elsewhere for that matter) thought perhaps two years ago. Now, of course, I think also when thinking about this we have to consider whether or not there is a possibility of getting money elsewhere than the usual and conventional sources which are available for funding large projects.

Now, I think it is interesting to note that this study says that the best way and the most economical 449

March 4, 1975 Tape 136 IB-5 way for the thing to be financed would be for it to be financed by the federal government . 450

March 4, 1975 Tape No. 137 NM - 1 I doubt very much if the federal government is going to finance ane hundred per cent of this project. It is going to help with the financing of part of it 1 as was announced last week, but I suspect also that the cost of doing this project Pas significantly increased since the Teshmont Zinder Report so that it would not surprise me now if it is $1.3 billion, $1.4 billion or even $1.5 billion that it will cost if this has to be done sometime in the future from now and obviously - AN HON. MEMBER: The Premier said $1.6 billion. MR.

WELLS: $1.6 billion, well there · you are. $1.5 billion, it is a guess. It is a guesstimate on anybody's part,but it has to be something of this order and it is obvious with the amount of aid that has been promised by the federal government, that the federal government is certainly a long way from getting involved in one hundred per cent financing. That means that other sources are going to have to be considered in conjunction with what the federal government will provide.

Now I think it is also interesting to note in that report that they say flatly and categorically that a project of this scope and magnitude is beyond the resources of the Province ~f Newfoundland to finance, and common sense would also tell us that that is correct. This province with half a million people surely cannot of itself get into the financing of something that is going to cost $1.5 billion. So obviously, Mr.

Speaker, it is going to turn partially on federal financing, partially perhaps, guarantees in financing arranged by the Province of Newfoundland through the Crown Corporations or this Hydro Corporation and CFLCojand partly money from private sources. Now it is interesting to speculate as to whether or not money might be available from the Middle East where this river of dollars is flowing as a result of oil. In fact I think I heard the Premier say that this is something that has to be examined. Whether 451

March 4, 1975 Tape NO. 137 NM - 2 there is much hope there,_ of course, we have no way of knowing at this stage. I have been told or read that the Middle Eastern countries and principalities that have all this money are very loath and very reluctant to lend it for anything other than the short term.

In fact,I am told that Saudi Arabia,for instance 1 1ending money to England, will do it on a three year basis only and that this is putting England very much in a crisis state because these Middle Eastern countries are no fools and they say to themselves, "Well, the rate of inflation in the Western Countries is advancing anywhere from a low of eleven or twelve per cent in Canada and the United States to something of the order of fifteen, twenty, twenty-five per cent in Great Britian and Italy. Therefore, if we lend money on long term, what are we going to get back at the end of twenty or twenty-five years?

We are going to get back worthless dollars." This is what they are afraid of, and they are also afraid) of courseithat the increasing rate of inflation makes their interest payments almost useless too, because what is the good of a rate of ten or twelve or fourteen per cent interest if inflation is eating twelve per cent of it. That is the very best in the western world at the moment, ten or twelve. What is the good of fifteen if you are going to lose ten or twelve right off the top, And then look into the long term, what is the good of the money that you lent coming back to you anyway.

I was reading a financial letter the other day, Mr. Speaker, and I thought it was quite fascinating 1and they said 1 and stated categorically,that the Canadian dollar - well let us take the American dollar 1 that was lowest, the American dollar since 1970 has dropped twenty-five per cent in purchasing power. The Canadian dollar twenty-five point five per cent, the British pound thirty- two per cent. I think these are fantastic figures when you think of them and then you consider yourself in the Middle East or anywhere else thinking to lend money on long term, are you going to do it because of 452

March 4, 1975 Tape No. 137 NM - 3 what is going to be at the end of it1 Where is this going to stop? Are we ever going to get back to a sensible, straight· forward, non-inflationary financial order and I do not know, Mr. Speaker. Nobody knows.

So that all I say is that we are going to, much as though we hope and pray that this project can be started, we have to bear in mind that the world in which we live and the financial and economic considerations facing this western world, and it may well be that we will not get this started maybe for two, three or four years, maybe we will not get it started until world financial conditions settle down and I would think that we would be foolish and hiding our heads in the sand if we think that we are going to wave a magic wand and it is going to start this year or next. We may have to be realistic.

We may have to recognize and be caught up in forces which are beyond our control, particularly financial and monetary forces which are beyond our control. So that it may not come as soon as we would hope and wish. Now there is another factor - AN HON, MEMBER: Would you hazard a guess? MR. WELLS: I could not hazard a guess as an ordinary layman living in Newfoundland. I could not because it is beyond the control of this province. It is in the hands - AN HON. MEMBER: It is federal . MR.

WELLS: Of course it is, Beyond the control, I suspect 1 of Canada unless Canada is going to finance it one hundred per cent,because you are looking at private lenders of money, situated in various parts of the western world, who are going to have to make up their minds on interest rate and the term of the money that they are going to lend. MR. NEARY: It is beyond that government. MR. WELLS: It is ~eyond and it would be beyond there if you sat there or anybody else. These are things - MR. NEARY: They said that about the Upper Churchill. MR.

WELLS: And that was beyond the control of the Government of Newfoundland also. These are things which we have to bear in mind 453

March 4, 1975 Tape No. 137 NM - 4 in considering this matter. The other thing,of course,that strikes me, and I would like the minister to deal with it as I am sure he will when he closes the debate, the other thing is to what extent are we going to have to have major customers, major industrial customers, signed up. 1 as it were, in some form of contract, before financing can be arranged. MR. NEARY: Mind if I give the legal terms1 MR. WELLS: Well, thank you very much and I am sure the honourable member will enlighten me in the law anytime at all. My seventeen years go for nothing.

If the honourable member will enlighten me, well very good. Very good. Very good. MR. NEARY: Make me an honourary member of the Bar. MR. WELLS: I think we will have to do that and then you will be quiet during my speeches. I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. The point I am getting at, Mr.

Speaker, you know we are going to have to bear in mind that investors are goi~g to look at what we are offering in terms of security,and will investors be satisfied simply with the projections of the Province of Newfoundland, that a certain amount of power will be used domestically within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, according to normal load growth, because there would come a time, vast though this project is, there would come a time when the normal load growth in the Province of Newfoundland would use the whole thing.

But are the people who are going to invest the money going to be satisfied with that or are they going to look and say, "No, we want the XYZ Company making aluminum or making something else, large chunks of power or perhaps some sold to Hydro-Quebec, whether it be short term or long term or what." They are going to want, I suspect, to know that kind of information before laying out the money. This is something I would like to hear the minister, and I am sure he will, deal with in some detail. Because if in order to finance the project we are going to have 454

March 4, 1975 Tape No. 137 NM - 5 to sign up>saylfor eighty or ninety per cent of the power to go into major projects, then we are going to have to be very careful, we might even have to think again. It might even cause a delay. Certainly there are going to have to be some major projects which will take a substantial chunkJbut obviously if the thing can be designed in such a way that a large chunk of power will also be available, maybe not on stream all the same day, but available for the future, for the normal projected load growth in Newfoundland, then that is absolutely important.

That is something that I am sure the government will be looking at and something that it ought to look at to preserve this energy, this power, for us and our children, Maybe it will not be our children because perhaps to take the whole of it we are only looking at fifteen or twenty years, so phenominal has been the increase in the use of power in the Province of Newfoundland. So these are things that I am sure the minister will deal with and I am sure the government will look at. MR. NEARY: Do you not have any caucus meetings over there? Does the minister know what is going on? MR.

WELLS: The member makes his speeches and he hopes that the member for Bell Island is elucidated, entert~ined, that his education is improved and that he goes out of the House this afternoon a better man, more well rounded, more able to face the demands that his constituents make upon him. There you are. MR. NEARY: Is there any communication at all. MR. WELLS: Of course there is 1 all kinds of communication. But some of these, Mr. Speaker, rhetorical questions for the elucidation of the Member for Bell Island and he should thank me, he should thank me for contributing to his general knowledge. MR.

NEARY: Be sincere. Be sincere. 455

!"arch 4, 1Q75 MR. WELLS: Tape 138 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Now T think 1having made these remarks on the general principle of this ~uestion of the development of the Lower Churchill, I would like to talk about the principle of the bill itself.

Now1 as I say 1 the Power Commission did or was the organ, the agency which did this sort of work, the sort of work that this corporation is going to do 1up until now, and the very guts of this is set out in Section (4) Subsection (1) - No, I am sorry, Section (5) the objects - the objects of the corporation are to develop the use of power on an economic and efficient hasis, and in particular but without limitation of the generality of the foregoing to engage in the nrovince and elsewhere the development, generation, production etc. etc. etc. of power. Now nohody could have any complaint with that.

It is a perfectly straightforward legitimate object for a publicly formed, public in the sense of being done by the legislature,corporation which will be in charge of the generation and distribution of power in Newfoundland~ ,mb.iect of course to the legislature, to the government and the legislature ultimately. I make that noint because I am going to come hack to it aften,ards in my remarks. So this is the object of it. Most of the clauses of it are housekeening clauses ·. They are clauses designed to let the corporation go about its duties, and I have no ciuarrel with them.

I would refer to certain specific clauses which have already nrovoked some comment in the debate which has gone on up to this point. I nronose to refer to,and I think I have no doubt others will refer to also. Clause (6) refers to M.H.A. 's being able to be appointed to the Power Corporatjon. Now I myself would like to see that removed, and I gather from remarks made yesterday by various ministers who have spoken t hnt this will he none~and this ought to be done. There is no need, ~fr. Speaker, I think, for members of the House of Assembly to he members of such n cornoration. on here, '·!r. Sneaker. AN J-101\/.

MWIBER: Inaudible. 456 I beliP.ve we have a debate going

March 4, 1975 Tape 138 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR~ WELLS: Aw, I see! The honourable member, of course, is still at it. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, this, I think, should go for very good reasons. Nobody has been perhaps too clear on the reasons but I think they should be examined into. They should go because it is desirable that we have as many members of this House as possible as private members able to express themselves without having any fetter on them,without having any salary coming from another source, that he is appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. This is what is important here.

For instance, las a private member can come in here and I can use my own thoughts on these subject~, and I can speak on them. But supposing I were a member of the Power Corporation, and supposing I were being paid in addition to my member's salary, $10,000- $15,000 a year for being a member of this Hydro Corporation,then l might think twice. There is where the danger lies. Not that it is going to bankrupt the province of Newfoundland to give two or three members an extra $10,000. That is not. the point.

The real point is that when you interfer, when you give members salaries from the public purse in addition to their salaries as members. I am not talking about cabinet now,which is a separate thing. But when you go into the backbenches and you start giving members salaries for this sort of work - what does it really do? It puts the private member more greatly under the control of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council or the Executive Council.

This is where it would be wrong, because it would inhibit the freedom of the private member to stand up and speak on matters which affect the people who elected him and the people at large of this province. That is the significance, l think, !!r. Speaker, of taking that

section out. Of course, I understand it is going to be taken out. I hope it is going to be taken out. l hope it will be discussed in committee and taken out. l think it would do good rather than harm for it to be so dealt with. Now there are one or two other things that have been dealt with - 457

"arch 4, 1975 Tape 138 (Afte r noon) PK - 3 Inaudible. AN !ION. ~BER: ~ WET.Ls_:_ I am in a Rood mood this afternoon . What was :hat coi,,;11ent? We will hear the honourable member. AN IION. 'fF'.lo!RER: I said, all members cannot take it .•.• 'IR. -~l,S: !\~l l!O'I;. t'f.!lp,E!l.: •IJL \,'F.Ll.S: Cannot take it , eh'. Inaudible . Cannot take it. Well as lonB as t he member can move back in his ow-n seat, and interje c t i f he must from his own seat, and as lon~ as he can taye i t, which I arn sure he can . I suppose he can. A}l .. r.0:1. MEMBF:R: v:it. WELLS: ~~ HON . KF'fBER: Inaudible . Wait ! Wait! Wait!

Just wait '. Inaudible . MR._~)!.:,LLS: You see the process of learninR is nev er perhaps as exci ting as the honourabl e member miRht think. A painstaking nr ocess . NotJ t he othe -r

section I would like to daal with , Mr. Speake r, is this - Inaudible . :~~- •~TI.T,S · Well! Leital action. the prerogativ e writs referred co in Section (24) . AN _no:-.. "lr:~mER : ~ -. _l·:E_!.l,S: honourable netiher . Inaudi ble . I belie ve , ~r. Speake r , I must be Retting to the AN HON. _'!f.l-lBER: Inaudible . ""l . 1-rr:t1.s: Oh, no l the Premi er is happy and cheerful. There is somet;inR P.ettinR to t he honourable memher. He is getti ng (id Re ty in his seat this afte rnoon, Mr. Speaker . Howeve-r! ~ection (24) talks about cert ain ler,al action s barred .

The i'on . '.e.ide-r of the Onl'Osition had a fai r hit of corranent to say :thout chis. The im)'lress:on I ~ot from the 1-,ay he interpreted chis

section was, "That neonle could lose the:lr r igh ts by action of the court, hv ;,rohibi t ions in this statute" t ·hich meant that action could not be taken l-y t he courts apainst peoole whose rights may be 458

March 4, 1975 Tape 1J8 ~Afternoon) PK - 4 trod on. To put it simply, hy reason of power development. Now I do not interpret it that way. What is referred to here are injunctions, mandamus, prohibition or other restraining process or proceeding of any nature. Now these. 1as Your Honour well knows, are the orerogative writs. They are not your ordinary actions. Another

section later on in the bill provides that "You can sue this corporation if you want to." And you are ' at l)erfect liberty to sue it and have your rip,hts adjudicated in the court. But what it restrains you from doing that is if some person hinders the suoply of power. Now if, for instance, an earth dam is being constructed in the early stages of construction of the Gull Island site down in Labrador or up in Labrador, and somebody brought an injunction saying, "You are trepassing on my land" or something like that, with your earth dam. To me~as I interpret it,that iE not hindering the supply of power.

If you want to be fanciful about it, if you want to push it to extreme degrees you may be delaying the project b" a day or a week three or four years hence when it is supposed to be finished. But you are not delaying the supply of power. I interpret that in its narrow sense as the direct delaying of the supply of power, just as if this afternoon I put some sort of injunction on bhe Newfoundland Light and Power prohibiting them from fixing a transformer on a pole in my yard. That would be hindering the supply of power 1 as I see it in this section.

We are talking here about prerogative writs, and the most usual,of course, is an injunction wh1ch prohibits or stops the thing. I do not think tl ·ere is any application here that need distrub or worry anybody. I think that if power is being supplied there are cases,and this is probably one of them, when the overall good to the community at large sometimes has to override individual rights. So that if I had some beef with the corporation, and they have a transformer in my yard and that transformer is out, and they have to put that transformer back in operation, in order to supply oower to 459

'far ch 4, 197 5 Tape 138 (Afternoon) PK - 5 my learned friend for Bell Island who lives down the road, then he and the other people living down the road, I think, have a right to receive that electricity and let my rights be adjudicated in court and let my remedy be in damages 1if that is the way it has to he. I think this is a sensible application of the principle. I thin k the learned and Hon. Leader of the Opposition is unnecessarily worried by this section. I do not think it is going to cause the hardship to any member of the community that he feels, Rights can he taken into court.

They can be adjudicated by the court. The prerogative writs li.ke mandalllllls or injuni;.tion can apply during the construction process but in the actual supply of power,as I interpret it , there would be a curb on the prerogative writs. I think that is necessary just as I should not, I submit, be able to go and get an injunction in St. John's this afternoon because of something to do with my property that would put the Member for Bell Island without hear and light tonight, because they could not supply power to him. I think that is the principle we are looking at.

I hope that my few remarks on this made it clear. MR. NEARY: --- ---- Does the member have any water over there? He is not too well. MR. WELLS: The member is in perfect health. I have not touched this glass. I would offer the member thi s glass, I have not yet drank from it. !MR. NEARY: - - --- 'n>" WELLS: "!R, NEARY: :,rn_. \IY.LLS: Inaudible. No? All right! Inaudible. He needs something more. He is gone now, Mr. Speaker. He is good. Too bad! 460

March 4, 1975 Tape 139 IB-1 The other thing that I would like to refer to when talking about the principle of this bill - this has given me a fair bit of concern, Mr. Speaker. I read the bill through a couple of times since it has been tabled in the House, thought about it. Of course, this did not apply to this Teshmont thing. As I have been thinking. either walking around or shaving, cogitating on this bill, there are a few sections and a certain principle in it that give me some worry, some concern. These are the sections beginning at

section twenty-six and running through to

section thirty-two, thirty-three. Basically this is the area of the bill that deals with loans and guarantees. It starts off, "Subject to the prior approval of the Lieutenant-Governor~in-Council, the Corporation may· (

a) borrow money for any of its purposes, including, without limiting the generality of the foregoing, the installation and maintenance of any system for the development, generation, production, transmission, distribution, delivery, supply, sale or use of power. In other words, as I interpret these sections lumped together, the Lieutenant--Governor~in-Council and the Minister of Finance is referred to elsewhere in this - this act in

section twenty­ eight says, "Notwithstanding The Financial Administration Act, 1973." It gives the power to the corporation with the approval of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, the right to borrow money. Now, when we are thinking in terms of borrowing for this corporation, as I tmderstand the set up of this corporation, we are talking now about the right of this corporation 1 if necessary,and I am sure it will be necessary because this is the parent corporation as it were, to borrow one way or another the billion or billion-and-a-half dollars that may be necessary for the development of the Lower Churchill.

So that as I interpret this, there is no limitation on here in terms of the size of the amount that can be borrowed. In other words, if this corporation finds it necessary it may have to borrow a billion dollars or a billion-and~a-half dollars or who knows, two 461

March 4 , 1975 Tape 139 billion dollars or cumulatively if you are looking ahead fifteen years. ,perhaps it might have to borrow $3 billion or $4 billion dollars. As this act is presently drafted it would have to IB-2 have the approval of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council to do this and in certain other cases, the approval of the Minister of Finance. Now, this, Mr. Speaker, is the principle here that gives me some concern.

My thinking for a long time is that when large amounts of money are borrowed, when large amounts of money are expended, when large amounts of money are guaranteed, that the principle, that the authority for doing this should not be the authority of the crown as represented by the ministers because that is what really the executive council is. It is the crown represented by ministers, by a Premier or chief minister and ministers,

whereas the House of Assembly, we here in this House of Assembly are the representatives of the people. So that, when major financial matters come to the fore as here, when large amounts of money have to be borrowed or guaranteed or raised, then I think that the responsibility for passing on it should be the direct responsibility of the House of Assembly, of the members who are in it, of the people who are responsible directly with nobody between them, to the people of this province.

Now, I have held that belief, I suppose, since I studied political science in university, since I studied in law school and had occasion to think about these matters and constitutional law, since I thought and worked for the Conservative Party over a great many years, since I campaigned for the Conservative Party and was elected and since I have served as a member of this House of Assembly, I have believed that in major financial matters the responsibility is here where it is public, where when you stand up and speak you take it on the chin, you have the public of this province watching you, you have the public and the press assessing your words.

This, in other words, is where accountability is. The other place of accountability is the polls, but we are the people who have to face the accountability here in this 462

March 4, 1975 Tape 139 IB-3 House and the accountability at the polls when we go to them, whoever of us go back to them again or the new people who seek to be elected. So, therefore, Mr. Speaker, it is fundamental in my own thinking that the responsibility should be here. If a billion . .and-a-half dollars have to be borrowed or $2 billion or whatever it is - I am not afraid of the figure, not shrinking from the figure for this province to develop that facility in Labrador, not for one moment, but it is here that the responsibility lies.

It is not in cabinet which is an organization representing the crown, It is the executive. True these people in the cabinet are elected but that is nQt the point. They are responsible to the House once removed. The point is that we, the members of the House, are responsible directly to the public. When you are talking about the kind of money that may be borrowed and expended by the authority of this act, then, Mr.

Speaker, it appears to me - this is a fundamental conviction on my part - that the place where this corporation should come for its authority to do this,either in specific amounts or up to certain amounts 1or after it has borrowed, to seek ratification before it can actually get the cash. However you want to cut the cake or look at it, this, to me, is the place of accountability.

Now, having said that, I would ask the government to change this so that this corporation does not have to go to the Lieutenant-Governor•in..Council and the Minister of Finance for the authority to do this, but rather to come back to the House. I think that in saying this I am on good, solid, constitutional principle. I am certainly, I think, on the principles of the party of which I am proud to be a member. I would ask the government to consider this, to discuss it. I would like to hear ministers in their remarks to the House analyse the question and deal with it.

I would like to hear other private members in their remarks to the House analyse and discuss the question because I feel it is here that the accountability and the responsibility should be, because it is we as members who have the direct accountability straight to the people who put us here