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September 9, 2015

PUBLIC

ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE

The

Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Bennett):

Good morning.

This is

a meeting or, more appropriately put, a hearing of the Public Accounts

Committee. The Public Accounts

Committee today is going to be reviewing the findings of the Auditor General

related to the Department of Transportation and Works, and this is dealing with

the Humber Valley Paving contract report that the Auditor General did that was

called by former Premier Marshall.

For

viewers, my name is Jim Bennett; I am the Chair.

My Committee members are the Vice-Chair, Mr. Hunter, and with him other

members: Mr. Parsons, Mr. Peach, Mr. Cross, Mr. Osborne, and Mr. Murphy.

We have with us the Auditor General and his staff.

We have a number of individuals who are here as witness or support people

today, and I will call on them to identify themselves momentarily.

The

format that we follow with these hearings is that

individuals who have not been sworn and who are to give evidence are sworn,

although people who appear before us regularly and who have appeared during this

session of the House of Assembly in the last just under four years, if they are

already sworn, they do not need to be re-sworn.

So, there is nothing unusual about that.

They are deemed to have remained sworn.

The

questioning that we pursue is members go in rotation with approximately ten

minutes each. They ask whatever

questions they feel the need to ask and then it rotates to another member and

another member and another member.

We typically take a break after all members have asked questions, which puts us

around mid-morning, around 10:30 or so, then we will break midday for lunch.

If we go into the afternoon, if that is necessary we never know for

certain if it is or not then we will have a mid-afternoon break.

Usually

we also provide an opportunity for the Auditor General just to give some

background and explanation, not just to jump in and then people will not know

why you are asking all of these questions.

So, background can be useful for anybody who may come upon us and wonder

what we are doing here today.

When

individuals speak, particularly witnesses, it is important to say who you are

it is being recorded so the people who are preparing a transcript from Hansard

know who is making what statements.

Otherwise, they will have to go back and try to figure out who said what.

It is more helpful for them if you identify yourself in answering any

questions.

I think

I will go to the Clerk, if anybody needs to be sworn, or have all witnesses

already been sworn?

Our

Clerk is Ms Murphy.

Swearing of Witnesses

Mr.

John Casey

Ms Lori

Anne Companion

Mr.

Gary Gosse

Mr.

Todd Stanley

Denise Woodrow

Mr.

Brad Power

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms Murphy.

I will

ask Mr. Paddon if he would like to give us some background, him or his Auditor

who actually conducted the audit, whatever his preference is.

MR. PADDON:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to

introduce, Sandra Russell is the Deputy Auditor General.

She has appeared before this Committee on numerous occasions.

John Casey was the Audit Senior involved in the conduct of this review.

Just by

way of background, we were asked on May 8, 2014 by the Lieutenant Governor in

Council to inquire and report into any and all aspects of a contract between the

Department of Transportation and Works and Humber Valley Paving Limited, related

to Project Number 1-12 PHP. The any

and all, obviously, is a fairly broad mandate, so we, over the course of our

planning, put some parameters around that and I will talk about that in a

second.

Just

for a bit of context, Project Number 1-12 is related to a contract for paving

and related work on seventy-six kilometres of the Trans-Labrador Highway and ran

basically between Happy Valley-Goose Bay and Churchill Falls.

Part of our planning process, we tried to put some scope around the any

and all aspects of the contract. So

in our judgement, we thought that five objectives would satisfy the Lieutenant

Governor in Council's objective of our review.

The

five objectives that, in our wisdom, we settled on were: one, to determine

whether the original tender and contract award were conducted in accordance with

the provisions of the Public Tender Act; two, whether progress payments made

were properly supported; three, whether any change orders or other adjustments

to the contract were appropriately documented and authorized.

Those three were more around the administrative process of the contract.

The

fourth objective was to determine whether the decision to mutually agree to

cancel the contract related to Project 1-12 was appropriately evaluated and

authorized; and our last objective was to determine whether there was any

evidence of undue influence in the evaluation or timing of the decision to

cancel the contract related to Project 1-12.

As part

of normal auditing standards, we would review these objectives with the person

that engaged us or the organization in this case, the Lieutenant Governor in

Council. We reviewed those

objectives with the Premier, more just to ensure they were complete as opposed

to negotiate the objectives at the end.

They were the objectives that in our professional judgement were

appropriate to the engagement.

We did

reach some conclusions against those five objectives, and I will just talk

briefly about those for the context of the hearing.

In terms of Objective 1, which was the contract being let in accordance

with the provisions of the Public Tender Act, we did find that the contract was

awarded in accordance with those provisions.

So we did not find any issues in terms of the contract award.

terms of progress payments made in connection with the contract, we did find

that they were properly supported and paid only for work completed under the

contract. There was an issue

related to payments being made on a biweekly basis that were not consistent with

the contract terms. We had some

findings around that and some recommendations.

terms of Objective 3, Change orders and other adjustments were appropriately

documented and authorized. Really,

they were minimal in this case anyway.

Objective 4, which was the process around the decision to mutually terminate the

contract; we did determine that there was not appropriate documentation in terms

of the decision to mutually agree to terminate the contract.

Our

conclusion also says that, The urgency to conclude an agreement on March 13,

2014 resulted in an evaluation that, with the benefit of more time, may have

more fully considered all options available to the Department.

We also

indicated that, Additional time may have allowed (the Department) to consider

other factors during the evaluation of the decision to cancel the contract

related ... around the decision to cancel the contract however, we cannot

determine whether more time would have resulted in a different decision.

Even

though they may have had more time to evaluate other options, they still may

have reached the same conclusion.

We really could not determine whether another outcome would have been better or

worse.

The

decision by the Minister of Transportation and Works was within the scope of his

authority and the decision was properly authorized.

terms of Objective 5, which is the issue around undue influence, we determined,

There is no documentary evidence of undue influence in the decision to mutually

terminate the contract related to Project 1-12.

have not able to satisfy ourselves why two Ministers, within hour,

independently contacted the Deputy Minister of Transportation and Works to

enquire about the status of HVP on the morning of March 13, 2014.

have not able to satisfy ourselves why the process to come to an arrangement

with HVP to terminate the contract had to be concluded the day before

nominations closed for the leadership of the Progressive Conservative Party of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

Those

were our conclusions related to our objectives.

We did have a number of findings as we went through, and those findings

totalled about thirty-three not about thirty-three, there were thirty-three

findings. At the end of the report

we did make a number of recommendations, five in total, around processes with

the Department of Transportation and Works.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Paddon.

Before

we beginning questioning it is customary, at least in this Committee, to offer

the department an opportunity, if they wish, to make some sort of an opening

statement by way of background. It

could be who you are or it could be detailed, it could be short, it could be

long, or you do not need to do one if you do not want to.

So I

will call on the department person, the deputy minister, I believe, is Ms

Companion.

MS COMPANION:

Good morning.

I would

like to introduce my colleagues: Gary Gosse, Assistant Deputy Minister of

Transportation; Todd Stanley, Assistant Deputy Minister of Justice and Public

Safety; Paul Smith, Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Transportation,

Corporate Services; Denise Woodrow, Legal Counsel for the Department of

Transportation through the Department of Justice and Public Safety; and, Brad

Power, our Communications Manager.

I am

Lori Anne Companion. I am the

Deputy Minister of Transportation and Works.

Thank

you for the opportunity to appear before the Public Accounts Committee to

discuss the Auditor General's report and review of Humber Valley Paving Limited.

The department welcomes the findings and the recommendations of the

Auditor General. We view them as

valuable insights into how we can better carry out our work.

I am pleased to advise the Public Accounts Committee that all five

recommendations contained in the report have been acted upon as follows.

November, 2014, the Clerk of the Executive Council provided a protocol for

informing the Premier and ministers of significant developments and issues

within departments in the event that they are asked to address such developments

in a public forum. In addition, the

Clerk of the Executive Council met with deputy ministers to reiterate the

importance of ensuring the conveyance of sensitive information through our

normal protocols and processes, which are through briefing notes, information

notes, and decision notes. That is

how we make decisions in government.

Briefing notes and decision notes are fundamental decision-making tools for the

public service. I have ensured

these tools are used for decision making and information exchange in the

Department of Transportation and Works.

response to the remaining four recommendations of the Auditor General, on August

21, 2015, I distributed four new policies to all department senior management

staff for immediate implementation.

These were then discussed at our senior management meeting in May.

We do regular and periodic reviews to ensure implementation is followed.

response to the Auditor General's recommendation with regard to tender closing

dates, we have implemented a policy which ensures that each tender close is

reviewed to determine whether we need to stagger the tender closing dates based

on a particular circumstance, or we need to bundle them, as we have to do in

some situations. Each individual

one is reviewed and assessed from that perspective.

developed and have implemented a policy for the adherence to payment terms of

contracts which requires contract payments on a monthly basis, except in

exceptional circumstances, which would be outlined in the contract under special

payment terms.

Management of contract and agreement records policy; through our document

control processes and our TRIM administrations, we have a strong policy which

requires that appropriate documentation be in place to support all key decisions

on contracts, especially when they are significant changes to the contract or

contractual relationship between government and the contractor or consultant.

Finally, for the department's communications protocol, and specifically for the

cancellation of awarded contracts, it provides a clear process and steps

required for public communication upon cancellation of a project and a contract.

I provided a copy of these protocols to the Public Accounts Committee and

the correspondence the minister provided in late June.

The

department remains committed to continued adherence to these policies.

We follow up with our staff regularly and we monitor in this regard on an

ongoing basis. We are confident

that the measures we have put in place will sufficiently address the Auditor

General's findings and recommendations.

We will

be pleased now to accept any questions from the Committee.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms Companion.

I will

go to the members.

Mr.

Osborne, if you would like to begin and approximately ten minutes.

MR. OSBORNE:

Does Mr. Hunter want to

CHAIR:

Oh, I am sorry.

I think maybe Mr. Parsons was going to open for government.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Good morning, everybody.

I would

like to welcome you here this morning to our second hearing this week of Public

Accounts. On behalf of the members

over here on this side, I hope we do not be too hard on you.

I just

want to welcome you all here this morning, and we will have questions, and like

the Chair said, it will be ten minutes at a time from each one of us asking

questions. We may go past this

afternoon, or we may continue whenever.

Anyway,

I just wanted to welcome you all here this morning.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Parsons.

Mr.

Osborne, if you would like to begin.

MR. OSBORNE:

Thank you.

wanted to start, first of all, by welcoming everybody today.

I thank you for appearing before the Public Accounts Committee.

I would

like to ask Ms Companion, the witnesses from the Department of Transportation

and Works were chosen by you to attend here today.

Is that correct?

MS COMPANION:

Yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Did you

also choose the witnesses from the Department of Justice and Public Safety?

MS COMPANION:

Yes.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay, thank you.

Why did

the two ministers within a half an hour independently contact the Deputy

Minister of Transportation and Works to inquire about the status of Humber

Valley Paving on the morning of March 13, 2014?

MS COMPANION:

I will speak to that.

I am unaware of why they would have, except what is noted in the Auditor

General's report, Mr. Osborne. The

Auditor General noted from the communication from the deputy minister of the day

that both ministers contacted regarding Humber Valley Paving and wondering if

there was some concern with their contract.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

The

Auditor General's office was not able to satisfy themselves as to why the

process to come to an arrangement had to be concluded on the same day, March 13,

2014, the day before the nominations closed for the leadership of the PC Party.

Can you tell me the answer why did this have to be done so quickly on the

day before the PC leadership?

MS COMPANION:

I will ask Gary to speak to

that. He was around at that time.

MR. GOSSE:

It is my understanding that

in the conversation our deputy at the time had with Minister McGrath that

morning was that he wanted that matter concluded that day.

Why it had to be concluded that day, I guess only Minister McGrath at the

time could answer that.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay, thank you.

MR. GOSSE:

The direction was to do it

that day.

MR. OSBORNE:

The contract was cancelled

for more than a month before it was made public.

The AG said that there was a lack of transparency.

Who made the decision not to make public the fact that the contract had

been cancelled?

MR. GOSSE:

I can only assume that the

decision was made between the communications people and the minister's office.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay, thank you.

There

was no documentation prepared to support the decision to terminate the contract

between Humber Valley Paving and the department.

Did the minister fully evaluate all of the ramifications of the

cancellation of that contract?

MR. GOSSE:

We discussed the options at

the time. There was no

documentation because of the time frame.

The people who were involved in that file were very familiar with

contracts being the deputy at the time, myself, who has been dealing with

contracts for over thirty years, and our solicitor at the time who is also very

well versed in contractual law.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

So did the minister himself evaluate all of the ramifications of

cancelling it?

MR. GOSSE:

We discussed the options

available to us with the minister.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

A key

criterion of the minister, as communicated by the minister, was to ensure that

the outcome was not injurious to Humber Valley Paving.

Was this the sole decision of the former minister, or did the deputy

agree with this criteria as well?

MR. GOSSE:

I cannot speak for the

deputy at the time. It was a

consideration, I can say that.

It is

important to know that when this occurred there was no indication that Humber

Valley Paving had any issues other than on this one project.

They had 300 employees. They

were, as far as we knew at that time, a viable competitive company and did good

work for us. There was no desire, I

do not believe, on anybody's part to do something that we thought would injure

the company and put somebody out of business and put 300 people out of work.

At the

time there was no indication that there was an issue with the company itself

other than on this one project. It

was a project-specific issue.

MR. OSBORNE:

The former Minister McGrath

had contacted Deputy Minister Meade and called him to meet outside the Cabinet

room on two occasions within about an hour-and-a-half of each other on that

morning. What explanation did the

former Minister McGrath give to the deputy outside the Cabinet room?

MR. GOSSE:

I cannot answer that.

I was not there.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

What

explanation or what response did the former Deputy Minister Meade give to the

minister outside the Cabinet room?

MR. GOSSE:

Again, I was not there; I do

not know exactly what was said. All

I could say is what was in the Auditor General's report.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Deputy

Minister Meade was instructed by the minister not to inform the Premier's Office

or Cabinet Secretariat. Was this

instruction made to ensure that there was nothing in writing?

MR. GOSSE:

Again, I cannot answer that.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

What

was the nature of the conversation that the Minister of Advanced Education and

Skills had with Deputy Minister Brent Meade?

MR. GOSSE:

Again, I can only repeat

what was in the Auditor General's report.

I was not there for that conversation.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

What

was the advice given by Deputy Minister Brent Meade to Minister O'Brien?

MR. GOSSE:

It would be hearsay on my

part. From the Auditor General's

report I believe the conversation had to do with we are aware of the situation

and the conversation ended.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

Again, I was not there.

MR. OSBORNE:

Do you know what the

response was by Minister O'Brien to Deputy Minister Meade?

MR. GOSSE:

I believe that was when the

phone call ended and there was no further contact from Minister O'Brien at the

time. That is my understanding.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Mr.

Chair, it is quite obvious this morning, the Auditor General had sixteen

witnesses present or that he had interviewed.

Only two of those witnesses are here today.

It is quite obvious to me that without those other witnesses here and I

wish to continue today, I think there are important questions and I think we

will continue to probe.

It is

quite obvious to me, Mr. Chair, that without all of those witnesses here, we are

going to hear a lot of hearsay. We

are going to hear I cannot speak to that.

Only former Minister McGrath can speak to that.

Only former Deputy Minister Meade can speak to that.

It is very unfortunate.

I will

ask Ms Companion: Why was David Jones, for example, not called to be a witness

here today?

MS COMPANION:

Mr. Jones has left the

employ of the public service. He

now works with a private company.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Well

Mr. Ross Reid had left as former chief of staff to the Office of the Premier,

but was still called as a witness by the Auditor General.

I will ask why Julia Mullaley was not called as a witness today.

MS COMPANION:

Mr. Osborne, the reason we

chose who is here today is in response to the Auditor General's report.

My role, I had acted when I became Deputy Minister of Transportation and

Works in January. It was my

responsibility to ensure that we acted upon the recommendations of the Auditor

General and I can certainly speak to those and what I did and what we did.

Gary

was here at the time. I felt that

Gary was a relevant and a very important part of our group.

From our legal perspective, Todd is the ADM to whom David reported at

that time. Denise is our new legal

counsel. Paul Smith is our director

Paul is our ADM who is responsible for policy who was responsible for working

with me to implement those changes in policy.

Brad is our communications person.

That was the logic and the decisions for why we chose who was here today.

MR. OSBORNE:

So far I have not gotten a

lot of answers and we are only ten minutes into this hearing today.

I do not believe the proper witnesses were called.

That is very disappointing.

I do not believe that the witnesses here can answer for former Minister McGrath,

or former Minister O'Brien, or former Deputy Minister Meade, or other public

servants who are still employed with the public service.

Mr.

Chair, I move that the persons listed in Table 1 on page 13 of the Auditor

General's report of September 2014, a Review of Humber Valley Paving Ltd.

Project Number 1-12PHP, be invited to attend a hearing of the Public Accounts

Committee which will deal with this matter as soon as can be arranged by the

Clerk of the Public Accounts Committee.

That is

seconded by my colleague, the Member for St. John's East, George Murphy.

CHAIR:

Mr. Osborne, I do not have

any difficulty with such a motion, maybe at the end of the day, maybe late in

the day. At this point we have

assembled a whole array of individuals.

By we, I mean the Committee and the taxpayers, and if we

MR. OSBORNE:

If I could intervene for

just a moment, Mr. Chair I am wishing to continue with this today.

This motion that I am putting forward is to call an additional hearing of

the Public Accounts Committee as soon as can be arranged by the Clerk.

I do wish to continue today.

I believe that there are some questions that can be answered today, but

obviously within the first ten minutes we can see that not all answers that we

need will be answered today, the witnesses clearly are not here.

So I do

not want to adjourn this particular hearing.

I am passing a motion now that I believe is in order, I believe can be

passed at any time during this hearing, to have an additional hearing of the

Public Accounts Committee.

CHAIR:

I think we have done that

before, but your motion right now I would look at that more of a notice of an

intent to have a motion.

Previously, this Committee has done sixteen or so, counting yesterday, and on

one occasion we had to have somebody back, and that was the forestry

diversification. That was in the

case of the Roddickton pellet plant.

When we

got late into the day and we realized we did not have enough evidence then we

continued it at a later date. We

may need to do that. Your motion at

that point, it can be put before the Committee and voted on, but I do not think

that really it is fair and necessary to Committee members to have to entertain a

motion this early. If you want to

call it a notice of motion for later in the day, fine, that makes absolute sense

to me, and our rules are relatively flexible.

One

item that Mr. Gosse mentioned is that he said if I said it, it would only be

hearsay. Well, that is fine, we can

hear hearsay, but how we deal with it and what weight we give to it may be of

little consequence; but if everybody tends to say the same thing that someone

else said, then it is probably what happened.

If there is a conflict, then that is another issue, but for our purposes

I think we should continue with the examination to the next member.

Mr.

Osborne, later in the day, before we arise, certainly if you want to have your

motion and if you have it in writing, that would clarify exactly who is saying

what and what is being voted on.

There may need to be amendments made.

I think we will treat it in the ordinary course as we would in the House

if it was any other committee, or Committee of the Whole for that matter.

I would

like to move on to a government member for questioning.

Mr. Parsons has indicated that he would like to lead off.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, good morning.

Just to

follow up with what Mr. Osborne just was asking some questions there that

time. Was the department aware of

the financial situation of Humber Valley Paving at the time?

MR. GOSSE:

No, when this issue became well, when it became an issue to us it was a

project specific issue. There was

no indication that Humber Valley Paving was in any sort of financial trouble.

fact, just weeks before this occurred, a senior person at Humber Valley Paving

had called me to ask me when the next tenders were being called.

So there was an expression of on their part at that time, they were

still interested in bidding on more work.

There was no indication there was any financial difficulty or any issues,

other than on the one project in question.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Had you known they were in

financial trouble, would it have made any difference on your decision?

MR. GOSSE:

It would have certainly been something different to consider.

I guess had we known the situation they were truly in, then harming the

company would not have been a consideration because the harm was already done.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I want to go to the point

where the project itself was underway at that time.

I think there were four different projects on the go for Humber Valley

Paving?

MR. GOSSE:

They had four active projects on the Trans-Labrador at that time, plus others on

the Island.

MR. K. PARSONS:

On the Island, okay.

Circumstances with Humber Valley Paving, they have been doing business with the

department for how many years?

MR. GOSSE:

I am going to say seven or eight years.

They had quite a history with us.

They were around a while.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes.

Did the

department have any issues with Humber Valley Paving before any of this?

MR. GOSSE:

No.

MR. K. PARSONS:

None whatsoever?

MR. GOSSE:

No, they generally did quality work.

They were a very co-operative contractor.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Circumstances around the forest fires; I read in the Auditor General's report

there were twenty-five they said approximately twenty-five tankers of liquid

asphalt, and that had to come from Quebec, I believe.

MR. GOSSE:

The liquid asphalt was being trucked in from Quebec.

That is correct.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Liquid

asphalt, because I do not know, how does it work?

It said something about cooling and stuff like this?

MR. GOSSE:

It has to be kept hot to be

pumpable out of the truck. Once it

cools off it becomes, basically, a solid and you cannot get it out of the trucks

anymore. It is heated, put in

tankers, and transported to the asphalt plant where it is unloaded into other

tanks and heated again.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Heated up again, okay.

The

forest fires during that period of time, what was the time frame?

How long did it delay the project itself?

MR. GOSSE:

There were numerous times

where Humber Valley Paving had to evacuate camps.

They had to take people off the road because the fires were so close.

It happened basically between the middle to the third week in June up

until about the middle of July in that summer.

MR. K. PARSONS:

What would be the cost of

liquid asphalt say for I do not know, there are twenty-five tanker loads,

approximately. What would be the

cost?

MR. GOSSE:

I would not know what Humber

Valley Paving paid for the liquid.

I know we pay about $1,000 a ton for liquid down there.

There would be thirty-two to thirty-five tons on a tanker.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So you are looking at about

$800,000.

MR. GOSSE:

It is about $35,000 a load,

and there were twenty-five loads that were turned back.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Also, during the time when

all this was happening the workers were away from the project.

So the project

MR. GOSSE:

Workers were taken off the

road. They were actually evacuated

from camps. These were isolated

projects, so they had construction camps that they worked from and stayed in,

ate in, slept in.

There

were times when they had to actually move their staff back to I believe they

went to Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

They had to take them out of the camps because the fires were so close.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

So with the four projects on the go at the one time, was this the only

area that was affected or were all four of them affected?

MR. GOSSE:

There were varying degrees

on all projects, but other projects were in different stages of completion.

So the other three projects actually did get completed.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

This was the one that was

the last to be started and of course the biggest impact because of the stage of

the work.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So 61 per cent of the

project was completed, right?

MR. GOSSE:

Approximately, yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Approximately 61 per cent.

The total cost to Humber Valley Paving was paid to Humber Valley Paving.

Was that for completion of the work they had done?

Was there any additional money given to them?

MR. GOSSE:

The $11 million in round

numbers that was paid to Humber Valley Paving was for work they had actually

completed. It was documented, as

verified by the Auditor General in his report.

MR. K. PARSONS:

The Auditor General

recognized that the and I know you spoke about it earlier, Deputy Minister,

about the biweekly payments. It was

kind of a disadvantage to anyone who was doing the tender.

If they all had to know the money was coming forth that they would what

was the reason for the biweekly payments?

MR. GOSSE:

The biweekly payments were

intended originally just to cover the liquid asphalt.

It was an arrangement that was made after the tender closed.

So it did not give anybody an unfair advantage from where I sit.

The asphalt suppliers were demanding payment for their liquid asphalt

which is a very costly item on a biweekly basis.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Was that an overlook where everything was paid biweekly?

Is that normal?

MR. GOSSE:

It grew into biweekly

payments for everything. When I

became aware of that I stopped it.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, all right.

The

mechanics' lien; I heard the minister the other night, actually, talking about

it on the Open Line show. The

mechanics' lien is 10 per cent of the total cost of what you pay.

When you pay off so many bills you pay 10 per cent, and that is held for

a mechanics' lien, is that correct?

MR. GOSSE:

For every payment that is

made, every progress payment that is paid on a contract and the normal cycle

is once a month. For every payment

that is made, 10 per cent of what is completed is held back and parked into what

is called the holdback account. So

money is actually taken out of the project and set aside in a separate account

in the contractor's name. That is

the mechanics' lien holdback, and 10 per cent is what is in the act.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Can you give us an update on where we are with the mechanics' lien?

Because I know there was a big concern with a lot of small companies that

were owed money. Where we are, who

is paid, and who is not paid, and if there are small companies that are still

owed money?

MR. STANLEY:

The 10 per cent holdback

account that the Province had for contract 1-12 had in it at the relevant

times the amount was $1.180 million basically.

The Province received a number of contacts from various people claiming

they were owed money by Humber Valley Paving.

Those creditors were advised that there is nothing the Province could do

in respect of the holdback funds.

The

holdback funds were to be held both under the mechanics' lien legislation and

under our contract with Humber Valley Paving.

The holdback funds were held for work performed and liens claimed in

respect of contract 1-12.

Everyone who called the Department of Transportation and Works and Gary can

speak to this were advised that they should go get legal advice and pursue

their debts against Humber Valley Paving.

Government was not in a position to be basically arbiter of their debt

claims against Humber Valley Paving or to pay them out of the holdback funds.

Government knew of and received claims against the mechanics' lien fund, the

holdback account. Over time, we

determined that there was a claim from CRA, Revenue Canada.

There was also a claim that Humber Valley Paving owed money to the

Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Commission.

We also

received a claim, starting in January of this year and I think this was

disclosed in the answers provided to the Committee; I think in response to

Question 5 of the written response.

We received a demand from HSBC, as the bank for Humber Valley Paving, demanding

the return and payment to HSBC of all monies held by government for Humber

Valley Paving, as secured creditor, and they provided evidence for the security

and there is no issue around that.

So, to

additionally complicate matters, in April there was a decision out of the

Newfoundland and Labrador Court of Appeal called Brook Construction which

confirmed or found something that was a bit of a surprise to TW, that the

Mechanics' Lien Act does not apply or bind government.

Therefore, amounts that we hold back for 10 per cent that are held in

anticipation of a mechanics' lien, the Brook Construction case found they cannot

be liened in our hands.

What

ended up is a situation where there is no longer a Mechanics' Lien Act in place

over this money, and HSBC had a secured creditor claim to the funds.

On the thirtieth of June, the Province actually made an arrangement with

HSBC and the funds that we had in the holdback account were paid out to HSBC on

certain conditions.

The

first condition was that we actually paid the CRA demand on that money, and I

have actually some paper I will distribute here.

The CRA demand was approximately $75,000.

So that was paid, because that ranked ahead of HSBC.

There was a holdback of $55,000 that we did not pay because of an

outstanding mechanics' lien claim that had been started by Mercer Consulting,

which I will talk about in a second.

The

remaining money was paid over to the solicitors for HSBC.

They undertook to provide and did provide a clearance for the workers'

compensation. They paid

approximately $23,000 to workers' compensation.

They also provided payment and this was part of the arrangement that

government negotiated with HSBC to twenty-five unsecured creditors of Humber

Valley Paving that Humber Valley Paving had confirmed with HSBC were actually

unsecured creditors who were owed money in respect of Project 1-12.

So the total amount of those payments that HSBC undertook to make to

those twenty-five creditors was approximately $95,000.

HSBC has confirmed to us that twenty-four of the twenty-five have been

paid. They had trouble finding one

of the individuals for an amount around $11,000.

After

those unsecured creditors were paid off as part of that arrangement, the

remaining funds went to HSBC that also has a demand in place against government

for any additional monies which we may have owing to Humber Valley Paving in the

future.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Right now is there anybody

else who is left owing money, any small contractors or anything knowing left

owing money now on this?

MR. STANLEY:

Well, we do not know if

there are people who may or may not be pursuing legal action against Humber

Valley Paving in respect of one particular contract or any contracts or services

they may have provided to Humber Valley Paving.

We are

aware that there are people who started legal proceedings, but none of them

progressed to the point where they had the power to effect or had a right to the

funds that were in government's hands.

We never received anything to that extent at all.

Even if they had, it would be a question of whether that would trump the

rights of HSBC as Humber Valley Paving's secure creditor to those funds.

Government had no grounds. Once the

Mechanics' Lien Act was deemed not to apply to government and we only had one

mechanics' lien that was received, upon Humber Valley Paving providing us with a

statutory declaration that their creditors in respect of Project 1-12 would be

paid off, government had no grounds to hold onto or withhold the remaining

funds.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Mr. Murphy, please.

MR. MURPHY:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Chair.

Good

morning to the respective witnesses who came to give us evidence today.

Thank you very much to the Auditor General and his team for the report

that they have, for the work that they have done, and for also agreeing to be

here today. I would say that you

have done a fine job when it comes to the report here today that we are dealing

with under the scope of the broad scope that you were given to do.

We have

here today a minister who resigned before he was fired, but we still have a

great degree of uncertainty around the questions that were asked.

I think that is one of the reasons why we are here today too, is to get

clarification on some of these questions.

I will be very interested as regards to some of the recommendations that

you did come out with, some questions around that.

I want

to come over back to I guess I will call it the political decision or the

decision, I should say. I will drop

the political. How the minister

actually arrived at the decision that there would be a mutual agreement to shut

down the contract. Just the

evidence that I am hearing now and just the supposition of what is happening and

what I have been finding out over recent days, I have to ask the department how

the department came to the decision that it would not make any adjustments for

Humber Valley Paving due to the conditions that happened around the contracts

and the difficulties that they were having in fulfilling some of the

requirements of the contract.

For

example, when I see the case where there was upwards of five weeks that were

lost in doing the work, and Humber Valley Paving is going ahead and looking to

government for recouping some of these costs; costs that were outside of their

control. I wonder why, for example,

the department would not agree to the basis of some of these claims.

I wonder if somebody can answer that first.

MR. GOSSE:

There was no formal claim

made by Humber Valley Paving for the losses due to the fires.

There was a conversation held between me and Gene Coleman, February of

that year, about the claim. I told

him he could make the claim if he like; I could not see how it would be

supported. There was nothing that

we did that caused any damages to the company.

I think that is the right position to take in the beginning.

That

view was shared by the deputy at the time, it was shared by our solicitor at the

time, and it was shared by Minister McGrath.

Again, based on what the Chair said a little while ago about hearsay, it

is my understanding that Gene Coleman actually met with Minister McGrath at the

time in the Goose Bay airport and made the same pitch to Minister McGrath that

he made to me. They were looking

for a figure of $2 million.

course my initial response was: Gene, we are not responsible for that, but feel

free to make your claim in writing.

Formalize it and send it in. We

will look at it, but I do not see that we are responsible for it.

There was no formal claim made against that project.

MR. MURPHY:

In this particular case,

from what you are saying then, even though there was a conversation that

happened between Mr. Eugene Coleman and Mr. McGrath at

MR. GOSSE:

Correct.

It is my understanding that they met at the airport in Goose Bay, yes.

MR. MURPHY:

It is an unusual case.

MR. GOSSE:

It was not a prearranged

meeting. It was a meeting as

Minister McGrath said, Mr. Coleman just happened to show up at the airport and

caught me getting on a plane.

MR. MURPHY:

It seems unusual, but

anyway, any place at all for a meeting.

Has there been any reasoning from Humber Valley Paving why they did not

submit a claim?

MR. GOSSE:

No.

MR. MURPHY:

No reasoning at all?

MR. GOSSE:

No.

MR. MURPHY:

We have not heard anything

and of course well they are not there today so I guess

MR. GOSSE:

No, they did not follow

through with that formal claim. The

next contacts, basically, on that were around March 13 when we were told to call

Mr. Coleman to see what was up with Humber Valley Paving.

That followed from the initial meeting with Minister McGrath and Deputy

Minister Meade outside the Cabinet room.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay.

Mr. McGrath and Mr. Meade are not here today, so they obviously cannot

answer to the questions here. That

would obviously be one cornerstone as regards to why they ended up making the

other decision that they did then.

MR. GOSSE:

Potentially.

MR. MURPHY:

That both would mutually

agree to terminate the contract.

MR. GOSSE:

With any construction

project there is a claim process.

MR. MURPHY:

Right.

MR. GOSSE:

You cannot just agree to do

something without proper documentation.

MR. MURPHY:

No, right.

MR. GOSSE:

So they did not even follow

you cannot even agree to paying it based on a conversation.

It needs to be documented.

MR. MURPHY:

Yes, exactly.

In this particular case, though, it just seems unusual that they would

not have made a claim. I think that

given the nature of the forest fires there, it was probably something

understandable. If they went to

argue their case, I believe it probably would have been supported.

Just

looking at it myself, if this is the case where forest fires knocked them out of

commission for five weeks, that they would not have been able to get any kind of

an extraordinary sum like possibly that is brought down here on page 42, the $2

million that you are talking about, in order to carry over and have the

completion of the project. I find

that a bit odd that they did not submit a claim, number one.

The

claims around the heated tankers and the liquid asphalt, I wanted to get into a

conversation about that. It says

here, There were approximately 25 loads of liquid asphalt which, either were

too cool to use, or which could not pass through areas of forest fires and had

to return to Quebec.

I can

understand here that if it was forest fires that made the rigs turnaround, it is

totally understandable again, but my degree of understanding, liquid asphalt

basically at what temperature. I

have heard different numbers.

MR. GOSSE:

I cannot give you a number

as to where it cannot come out of the tanker anymore, Mr. Murphy.

MR. MURPHY:

Yes, okay.

MR. GOSSE:

You cannot, obviously, leave

it in a tanker for a week and expect to get it out.

MR. MURPHY:

No, and

MR. GOSSE:

It would depend on outside

temperatures, a whole series of things.

MR. MURPHY:

Yes, my understanding from

the industry, for example, just from the loading point to the drop-off point, if

you consider it being about a 1,450 kilometre trip, you would probably lose

about seventy degrees in temperature over the trip.

They lose about five degrees Fahrenheit every hour.

It is about seventy degrees Fahrenheit; I should make that clarification

too.

MR. GOSSE:

Yes, that would depend on

the size of the truck and the volume of liquid that was in the truck.

MR. MURPHY:

Did Humber Valley Paving

have the ability to reheat the product once it got on site?

MR. GOSSE:

Once it was out of the truck

and into their plant they could reheat it.

MR. MURPHY:

So they had the ability

there.

MR. GOSSE:

The issue would be heating

it in the truck. I do not think

they had the ability to be able to heat it in the tanker itself to be able to

pump it off.

MR. MURPHY:

Right.

MR. GOSSE:

There are no heaters in the

tankers.

MR. MURPHY:

Yes, some of the companies I

have talked to have the ability to maintain the heat in the tankers and

everything.

MR. GOSSE:

Some, yes.

MR. MURPHY:

What equipment they use, I

do not know. Just according to the

loss of temperature, what I found in my study of this issue was roughly about 5

degrees Fahrenheit per hour, assuming that some of these tankers were held off

site because of forest fires. Do we

know delivery times and everything?

Has the department looked at the delivery times when the tankers would have been

dropped off, the timeline of the actual construction as it was ongoing?

MR. GOSSE:

We do not record when tankers arrive on site, no.

MR. MURPHY:

No, that would obviously be

up to Humber Valley Paving

MR. GOSSE:

Yes.

MR. MURPHY:

then they would not have

to disclose that to the department.

MR. GOSSE:

Yes, it is an arrangement between Humber Valley Paving and the supplier and

their trucker, if there were three different entities involved.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay, all right.

Thanks for that, I appreciate that.

What we

are looking at here now, there was obviously an added cost to the execution of

project 1-12 according to the Auditor General's report.

It says, Labour, transportation and accommodation costs were still being

incurred Okay, and obviously

because of the fires and pulling out crews and everything, getting them out of

danger. I can totally understand

that.

A camp

was evacuated due to its proximity to the fires which also added to HVP's cost

of executing the Project. There were

also extra costs due to the return of liquid asphalt.

Like I

said, I beg the question at the same time like I said, the former minister is

not here, and I wish he was. I am

trying to find out if this was obviously one of the cornerstones that were

considered in his decision. It

appears to me right now that it is, without him being here.

MR. GOSSE:

The delays were legitimate. I mean,

there is no question. We cannot

argue that they were not delayed.

Our contracts generally put us responsible for delays that are caused by us.

Acts of nature or anything else outside of our ability to control, we are

not responsible for.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

That is what prompted my first response to Gene Coleman.

We understand you are delayed.

We understand there was a cost, I understand there was a cost, but we are

not responsible, and that had to be my first response.

MR. MURPHY:

Right.

MR. GOSSE:

That was without having the benefit of seeing anything in writing that shows how

they got to where they were.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay, all right.

MR. GOSSE:

And $2 million just seemed to be such a convenient number to throw out that

MR. MURPHY:

Yes.

MR. GOSSE:

You need to see documented evidence to show where the delays were and how we

would have been responsible for those delays.

MR. MURPHY:

Yes.

Okay, all right.

I will

come back to the start of the report.

I just wanted to get that matter clarified first.

CHAIR:

Mr. Murphy, we will go to a government member.

MR. MURPHY:

Time?

There you go, okay.

MR. HUNTER:

Yes, I would like to go back

and forth a little bit so that

CHAIR:

Oh, for sure.

If government members want to divide up into ten, or twelve, or fifteen

minutes the important thing I think, is to get the questions asked and make

sure no one is left behind on asking questions.

MR. HUNTER:

Okay.

I do have a question pertaining to the options available to the

department. When it was brought to

your attention that Humber Valley wanted out of the contract, wouldn't you

automatically set some priority, some options, whether it be to increase the

amount of the contract to Humber Valley or to evaluate the situation on site

pertaining to liquid asphalt? Were

there options discussed immediately?

MR. GOSSE:

The options that were

discussed were options on a way forward when Humber Valley did not want to

continue when we were informed that Humber Valley Paving did not want to

continue with the contract. We did

not look at other options as far as paying them extra well, I guess that is

not really true either. It was all

considered.

We did

not discuss options with Humber Valley Paving.

We discussed options internally ourselves with how we proceed from this

point. Do you call a bond?

Do you cancel a contract?

MR. HUNTER:

So it is a common practice,

in a case like this, to automatically arrange a meeting with the contractor,

engineers, and the department people to get them together automatically ASAP to

discuss some options? If they were

asking for something verbally without putting it in writing

MR. GOSSE:

It is difficult to say what

would be the norm because it is very seldom that we cancel a contract or are

faced with the option of, or the decision of cancelling a contract.

In that regard, we are kind of all working our way through things because

it is not a normal occurrence.

In the

normal handling of claims, that is second nature to us and we work through

those. Had they followed through

with the claim that we discussed a little while ago, for the $2 million for

delays, we would have worked through that in a well-documented and processed

manner. It is a very rare

occurrence that we cancel a contract.

MR. HUNTER:

Wouldn't it start out with a

meeting first with all the stakeholders and say here is our plan ?

MR. GOSSE:

In this particular case

there was instruction to do it that day.

It did not allow time or opportunity to get people together and have

meetings to discuss options, other than the people who were involved, being the

deputy, myself, our solicitor, and the minister.

MR. HUNTER:

What would happen in the

past in a case where a contractor could not fulfill the contract in the time

frame and needed an extension and extra funding to continue?

It does not have to be a forest fire.

I know

in the fall of the year there are usually lots of cases and circumstances where

the weather plays a big factor. You

can only lay asphalt, I think, at seven degrees or higher.

MR. GOSSE:

That is correct.

MR. HUNTER:

There are lots of days when

they are on site and the temperatures drop below two degrees down to zero

degrees and liquid asphalt is on site, all the men are on site.

What do they do in the case in the past what was the norm scenario of a

job if you have a week of really cold weather in September, we will say?

Do the contractors come back and negotiate?

Or do you meet with the contractors and say here is what we will do for

you.

MR. GOSSE:

The normal process in that

exact scenario you described there, Mr. Hunter, would be for us to formally, in

writing, give them extensions to their completion dates.

If we have identified a completion date of the end of September, it would

not be uncommon for us to tell them in writing that, yes, we will extend your

completion date to the middle of October; or sometimes, in some occasions, even

into the next season if we know that it cannot be done and cannot get a quality

job going. We never discuss

increases in prices or payments to cover off extra costs because they have not

been able to complete on time.

MR. HUNTER:

Did Humber Valley Paving

notify in writing that it could not deliver that liquid asphalt to the site of

their plant; or it is just a phone call made saying that we cannot, we have to

turn back?

MR. GOSSE:

I do not know that I ever

saw in writing that there were twenty-five loads of liquid asphalt sent back.

They did ask for extensions during completion dates which we did give

them.

MR. HUNTER:

So if they got an extension,

they would have still had to send the asphalt back?

MR. GOSSE:

Yes.

The extensions that we gave them went into the following year, which is

when they eventually terminated the contract or asked for the contract to be

terminated. They were originally

supposed to finish the contract the fall before.

Because

of the fires, it was justifiable and reasonable to give them an extension to go

into the next season. We knew they

were delayed by four to five weeks, so it was a reasonable decision at that time

to extend their completion date into the following year, which we did.

We did it in writing, but they did not come back to work.

MR. HUNTER:

Were there any red flags

that came up, that you knew, that they were not going to fulfill the contract

pertaining to their financial position?

MR. GOSSE:

No.

As I said there earlier, it was only a couple of weeks before that Eugene

Coleman called me personally and asked me when the next tenders were coming out.

So indications to us at that time were, well, business as usual for them.

There was no indication, other than the conversation in February, that

said that it cost them $2 million because of the fires.

MR. HUNTER:

It seems awfully strange

there was a major restructuring or financial problem to arise that quickly.

MR. GOSSE:

It occurred within days of

the cancellation of this contract.

That is when we became aware of it.

MR. HUNTER:

George was talking about the

liquid asphalt. Being around

construction, I know that asphalt plants, in my past career, I have seen cases

where the liquid asphalt was on site at colder temperatures and there was a

mechanism that some of the contractors had to heat the asphalt to get it out.

I am not sure if Humber Valley could answer that question.

I mean, were they asked that question?

Can you deal with this problem if you had to move the liquid asphalt to

the site in a week's time or whatever?

MR. GOSSE:

No, that was a business decision they made to either send the liquid asphalt

back or that was their decision to make.

Some contractors do have the ability to be able to heat most of them

would have the ability to heat the asphalt if it is unloaded into their asphalt

plants.

MR. HUNTER:

Yes.

MR. GOSSE:

Some would have the ability to be able to heat it in tankers, not all.

MR. HUNTER:

In some cases in government

contracts the progress payments would be based on some of the materials landed

on site and not installed. Would

that have been a case for liquid asphalt if they said liquid asphalt is on site

and it is, say, 5 per cent of the job, so they send in a progress payment for 5

per cent?

MR. GOSSE:

We do not normally pay for liquid asphalt until it is incorporated (inaudible).

MR. HUNTER:

That is just pertaining to

liquid asphalt?

MR. GOSSE:

Yes.

MR. HUNTER:

So what about crushed stone and class A and class B and all that stuff?

MR. GOSSE:

Yes, if there is materials crushed and stockpiled and we have control of it,

then we will pay for that, in part, before it is put on the road.

MR. HUNTER:

It does not include liquid

asphalt?

MR. GOSSE:

It does not include liquid asphalt, no.

MR. HUNTER:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

We require all crushed materials to be done up front.

So we know that there is a cost to them to doing that.

Typically what we would pay, if the material is all crushed and in a

stockpile and just left to be put on the road, we would pay two-thirds of

whatever their contract price was and that is documented right on the progress

payments as to what is being paid for.

MR. HUNTER:

So were they immediately

stopped on the site, on the job itself, immediately stopped and not to do

anything further on the site? In

cases that I have seen done, once the company said they are not going to fulfill

a contract and wanted out of the contract, then a stop was put to everything.

MR. GOSSE:

We would not have stopped them there, that was their decision, and the right

decision for safety reasons to stop because of the fires.

It was not us that stopped them from doing work.

MR. HUNTER:

Well that is, Mr. Chair, a

couple of questions I had I would like to come back to a few more later on.

CHAIR:

Oh, for sure, you can ask on

another round.

MR. HUNTER:

Yes.

CHAIR:

We are about eight minutes

in if you want to go back to another member, if a government member wants to ask

a few more questions. I do not want

you to be cut short on time.

MR. PEACH:

I just want to follow up on

what you are saying there with regard to the contractor.

The request came in from the contractor himself, was it, to cancel the

project? It was not the government

just cancelled it; the request came in from the contractor?

MR. GOSSE:

Absolutely, yes.

There was a discussion that was held early on the morning of March 13.

MR. PEACH:

After the forest fires and

all the losses that they gained.

MR. GOSSE:

The forest fires were the

previous season.

MR. PEACH:

Yes.

I was listening to the questions and the answers and I was saying to

myself that if you were a good business person and you were accruing all these

losses with regard to the forest fire, the twenty-five loads of liquid asphalt

that had to be sent back and all the people out of work and evacuating the camps

and everything, on the company side it would not be uncommon for somebody to say

well, look, we are losing a lot of money here.

Are we going to continue or are we going to make a decision to request

it?

I was

just wondering then if the government, based on the claims that they were

looking at putting in you said that there was nothing in writing, but there

were some claims that had been discussed by Eugene Coleman of somewhere around

$2 million. It is a lot of money.

It does not sound like a lot of money, but it is a lot of money.

MR. GOSSE:

It is a lot of money

MR. PEACH:

I am just wondering when the

request came in if that was one of the main factors for the government to make a

decision to cancel the project.

MR. GOSSE:

No, it was not.

The $2 million, as I said, Mr. Peach, was never formally put there.

Although when we agreed to cancel the contract, we made it very clear in

our letter that one of the reasons or one of the conditions was that they drop

any claims that they see they may have had against us for that.

The

other thing that was in that letter, of course, was that they would be

responsible for any warranty work on the work they had completed.

Had we known they were in financial difficulty and the company probably

would not be around, then that was a moot clause.

It was fully our understanding that they were still a viable company.

There was no indication that there was a financial issue whatsoever,

other than on one project-specific issue.

MR. PEACH:

So then the decision to

cancel the project, that was just a decision of the minister, I guess, in his

authority and the department, based on a request from the company.

MR. GOSSE:

Correct.

MR. PEACH:

There were no other

circumstances around it, was there?

MR. GOSSE:

No.

MR. PEACH:

Okay, thanks.

I will

come back to some I have a few more questions here, but I will come back to it

later.

CHAIR:

I am going to go back to Mr.

Osborne.

MR. PEACH:

I do not want to take up

more of my time.

MR. OSBORNE:

Thank you.

I am

going to try to tailor my questions as much as I can to avoid that question is

better asked of another witness, because we know the other witnesses are not

here. I will say this is the second

day in a row we have had a hearing that the proper witnesses were not here.

Yesterday, member after member after member displayed their

disappointment that Memorial University did not show up.

I want

to say again on record that the proper witnesses were not called here today.

We obviously cannot ask all of the questions today, so again, I will try

to tailor my questions around the fact that we have only got certain witnesses

here today.

The

lack of transparency in the communication of this decision to terminate the

contract, why was there no communication for well over a month after the

termination of this contract and the time the general public became aware?

MS COMPANION:

I will answer that question, Mr. Osborne.

The

decision to enter the contract was the decision of the minister's, and the

decision to cancel the contract was a decision of the minister.

It was well within his right and authority to do so.

At the time, there was no communication plan put in place to announce the

cancellation of the contract for Humber Valley Paving.

I am

not sure if previous to that there had been communication on any contracts that

had been cancelled. What I can say

is that, from here on in, if there are any contracts that are cancelled there

will be a very robust communications plan in place.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Was

part of the reason for not communicating the decision to terminate the contract

to the general public made to protect Humber Valley Paving?

MS COMPANION:

I believe I will answer what I know.

There was no information flowed to the centre or to the Premier's office,

so the decision was made by the department to cancel the contract and there was

a view that no further communication would have been necessary at that point.

MR. OSBORNE:

So the people of Labrador

who relied on this road and the expectation of the commitment to have this road

done, there was no need to communicate to the people of Labrador that the

contract was cancelled?

MS COMPANION:

The work was being rebundled right Gary?

MR. GOSSE:

Correct.

MS COMPANION:

Do you want to speak to that?

MR. GOSSE:

As far as completing the contract on the road was concerned, I mean that was

fully our goal, and we just about met our goal we were eleven kilometres short

at the end of the season from having that work finished.

That work has since been finished, so the road between Western Labrador

and Central Labrador now is fully paved.

The

commitment to the people in Labrador, to me it does not matter how we got that

work completed, whether it was Humber Valley Paving or whether it was another

contractor that did it. The

commitment was the commitment to have the road paved, and that was met.

MR. OSBORNE:

So there were suppliers and

subcontractors to Humber Valley Paving.

Would they not have benefitted from the understanding that this contract

was cancelled?

MR. GOSSE:

I do not believe so.

The reason why I say that is because whether it is a mechanics' lien or a

claim against the Labour and Materials Bond, there were time frames associated

with those there were statutes of time where they had the ability to be able

to make a claim, and those time frames had all expired by the time the contract

was cancelled. Whether the contract

was cancelled or Humber Valley just decided to carry on and not pay them, I

believe and it is probably a question that Todd can answer better that they

had already missed the opportunity to make a claim in any case.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

Bonds clearly say from the

time they supply a labour or a good, they have 120 days to claim.

That had passed. There is

thirty days to file a mechanics' lien in the act and that had passed.

There were no liens filed when the contract was terminated.

We did check at the Registry of Deeds, there were no liens filed.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay, so legally they may

not have benefitted by being able to file a mechanics' lien.

Ethically, morally, perhaps they would have benefitted by knowing that

if they were thinking they were going to return to work to do work for Humber

Valley, or continuing to supply to Humber Valley, perhaps by knowing that this

contract was cancelled they would have been given a heads up.

This

was not communicated to anybody, not members of the House, not the general

public, not the people of Labrador, not the people who were doing business with

Humber Valley Paving. Why was it

not communicated?

MS COMPANION:

Absolutely.

There is a need to communicate major decisions of that nature, Mr.

Osborne. We fully understand that,

as was highlighted in the Auditor General's report in one of the recommendations

and findings in his report.

It was

not communicated and it was not communicated to anybody, not to the public, not

internally up and down. It just was

not communicated. That obviously

was an issue highlighted by the AG which we take very seriously.

It is very serious.

MR. OSBORNE:

It was a major oversight.

MS COMPANION:

Right.

MR. OSBORNE:

This was a company that the

former head, about to become the head of the Province, the head of government,

was involved with. Obviously it is

a very sensitive issue.

MS COMPANION:

Very sensitive.

MR. OSBORNE:

Obviously very sensitive and

no communication to anybody. That

to me is unexplainable. Who made

the decision? Was it the minister

who made that decision?

MS COMPANION:

I am going to tell you what

I think. I do not think that there

was a conscious decision to not communicate that.

I think it was an oversight.

He was in his authority to be able to sign the contract and close the contract,

and there is no documentation, nothing to show that there was a conscious

decision not to communicate that information; but, as you and the Auditor

General have indicated, that definitely is an oversight.

MR. OSBORNE:

I mean, that leads me to

another question. There is a lack

of documentation both the day the decision was made, and in the Auditor

General's report the decision from the very start of the day to the time the

contract was cancelled was seven-and-a-half hours.

In fact, it was less than four hours from the time the minister made

first contact with the deputy minister and the decision was made to cancel the

contract. So there was a lack of

documentation that day, but what surprises me is there was a lack of

documentation the day after, the week after, the month after on such a very

sensitive issue.

MS COMPANION:

Right.

MR. OSBORNE:

There was no documentation.

MS COMPANION:

No.

MR. OSBORNE:

There was no documentation

at all. Why was there no

documentation following we can explain away that the decision was made in

haste and it was a very quick decision and the minister had said that he wanted

that decision concluded that day, there was an urgency, and we can surmise it is

because the former head of that company now about to become the head of the

Province was involved and that the deadline for the PC nomination was the

following day.

That

might be the explanation for the day the decision was made.

Is that also the explanation for the day after, the week after, the month

after that there was no documentation the sensitivity around the issue?

MS COMPANION:

There were two pieces of documentation that are in the files, and I think they

were attached to the Public Accounts letter.

One was a briefing note that went to Cabinet Secretariat and to the

Premier's Office. It was in late

April or early May I can find the date and another piece was an email

outlining the circumstance of the decision from David Jones, the lawyer on the

file at that time. Those were the

two pieces of correspondence that were prepared after that decision had been

made.

MR. OSBORNE:

One of those was almost a

month-and-a-half later, and the other one was almost two months after the fact,

though.

MS COMPANION:

Right.

MR. OSBORNE:

Ordinarily, after a major

decision like this, the ordinary route, the normal route in a department is to

have briefing notes done to outline the pros and cons to have a briefing note,

to have other documentation, to do a proper assessment of the decision, and to

do a communications plan. Anybody

who has served in a department knows that those are normal procedures, and none

of those were done.

Did the

minister make the decision that there would be no communication?

Was it Deputy Minister Meade who made the decision that there be no

documentation? Who made that

decision?

MS COMPANION:

How we do business as the

public service those are our tools for decision making; our information notes,

if we are going to exchange information about a decision that has been made so

that everyone is aware and in the loop.

The other is a decision note which outlines all of our alternatives,

assesses our pros and cons, and makes some recommendations and weighs the

recommendations weighs the alternatives.

The

decision being made on that day, that work was not completed, the

decision-making note or process.

After the decision had been made it was to the point that there was information

sharing and that information note was prepared.

That is the note I would have attached that was prepared and sent to the

centre. The whole decision-making

process of the analysis and alternatives is a process we use prior to a decision

being made, right.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

The earliest documentation after this was more than a month and a half

later. That is certainly not normal

within a department or certainly not normal for public servants.

It is not normal for the bureaucrats.

Is that correct?

MS COMPANION:

Right.

We function and we use information and briefing notes.

They are our tools, definitely.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Mr. Osborne, if you are not

finished that line of questioning I will let you continue with that.

If it is something new you want to go to, I would prefer to go to a

government member and then take our morning break.

MR. OSBORNE:

No, that is fine.

We can carry on.

CHAIR:

Okay.

I think

Mr. Cross does not have questions yet.

Mr.

Peach was already asking before. Go

ahead, please.

MR. PEACH:

I just have a couple of

questions. As the day goes on I am

sure some of the questions we have noted are going to be duplicate questions

from some of the other members that have already been asked before.

So, I just have a couple of questions of understanding.

When

the gentleman there was speaking about the mechanics' lien he mentioned about

the claims to the Canada Revenue Agency, and also to Workplace Health, Safety

and Compensation Commission. Did I

understand correctly that there were claims put in to those people?

MR. STANLEY:

If it helps, I actually have a handout with some of the numbers on it that might

it is just that I am not sure (inaudible).

MR. PEACH:

I am referring to statutory

claims, right.

MR. STANLEY:

Yes, there were two statutory claims of which the department was aware.

There was a claim received from CRA there was a claim demand that the

Department of Finance received a garnishment order or an interception order from

CRA for any amounts payable to Humber Valley Paving.

That claim demand was in the amount of $75,477.

We were

also aware that there was an amount payable to the Workplace Health, Safety and

Compensation Commission of $23,300-and something.

The numbers are on the document you are getting there now.

So,

yes, those two had been received.

The way the law works is they would trump secured creditors or anybody else.

In particular, CRA gets paid ahead of anybody else.

MR. PEACH:

Okay.

Can you give me some information on those claims?

What were they for?

MR. STANLEY:

Well, no, that we would not know.

MR. PEACH:

How did they arrive at it as

a claim?

MR. STANLEY:

The CRA claim, I am aware of the amount, but I am not actually sure what it

would be for. CRA claims like that

can be for a couple of things.

Failures to remit, withholding tax payments, or employee deductions on salary,

that sort of thing, or HST remissions.

There are a number of ways a CRA claim can arise.

I do not know the details of that one.

I am not sure that CRA would disclose that to us.

MR. PEACH:

Yes, or it could be not

paying in enough Canada Pension, and things like that, right?

MR. STANLEY:

Yes. Canada Pension would be the

employee deductions yes, if they have not submitted that.

The

workers' compensation amount that was outstanding, which was around $23,000,

would be a lien for unpaid employer premiums on workers' compensation.

MR. PEACH:

Okay, thanks.

Another

question I had is on page 32, Findings 8 and 9 of the AG and maybe this is a

question for the AG, I am not sure.

It was noted that HVP would have had knowledge of the bi-weekly payment

practice from previous contracts with the Department.

I am just wondering, is that previous contracts from Humber Valley Paving

or are we talking about previous contracts from other contractors?

MR. PADDON:

It was my understanding, from the discussions we had and the interviews at the

time, contracts that Humber Valley previously had with the department, there was

the arrangement for biweekly payments related to liquid asphalt.

At some point they did, as Mr. Gosse had stated, morph into biweekly

payments for the full contract, not just liquid asphalt.

I guess

our concern was that potentially if Humber Valley Paving knew that this

arrangement for biweekly payments was in place, based on previous contracts,

that when they bid new contracts they may have built that knowledge in and it

might affect their pricing. If you

had a contract where the gap in prices was very narrow, it has the potential, or

had the potential to affect the price on bids.

In this

particular case it likely did not because it was a large enough gap that this

probably would not have affected it.

It is more of a principle thing than anything else that makes sure that

who is bidding on the contract is aware of all the nuances around payments under

contracts. That was the point we

were trying to make.

MR. PEACH:

Yes.

That was the next question that I had.

So you pretty much clarified it there where you had stated that it may

have a competitive bidding advantage over other contractors.

MR. PADDON:

It may have, but not likely in this case, but more from a broad principle basis,

just to ensure that there is a level playing field.

MR. PEACH:

Okay.

Just a

question on the sixty kilometres of highway.

What is the status on that now?

Is that completed now or is it something ongoing, or is it retendered?

What is happening with it?

MR. GOSSE:

That sixty kilometres was retendered and it has now been finished.

It was finished in July of this year.

The last eleven kilometres was done this summer.

MR. PEACH:

Okay.

I have

some more questions here, but I will come back to them later, Mr. Chair.

If Eli wants to ask a few

CHAIR:

Okay.

Mr.

Cross, did you want to use up a little bit of the time Mr. Peach would have had?

MR. CROSS:

Yes, okay, we can move

ahead.

Obviously, we might have been a little more organized if we all got together and

planned our questions as such, but geography of where we reside does not give us

that all the time. Some of the

things are jumping back and forth, and things that I had, that I was

identifying, Mr. Peach just hit on.

I was

looking at some of the findings and comments that were there and I do not know

if I could ask the Auditor General.

As we are looking through, some of the findings that are here Finding 6 on

page 31 has to do with the mechanics' lien.

It says: There was a lack of transparency in the communication of the

decision to terminate the contract.

This had the potential to impact the ability of sub-contractors and suppliers to

file a claim under that mechanics' lien.

The

whole issue of the lack of transparency how does that play here; what would

lead you to make that comment?

MR. PADDON:

I guess our concern was if

there is a time frame for any supplier or any sub-contractor to make a claim for

any reason, if they are unaware that the contract is being cancelled then they

are unaware that the clock may have started ticking.

Now, I accept the comment that was made earlier by one of the witnesses

I just cannot remember that in this particular case it may not have made any

difference because the clock may have started ticking the summer before; but,

conceivably, you could have a circumstance where the contract is cancelled

fairly soon after the goods or services are delivered and if there is no

awareness that the contract is cancelled, then they may not have the ability to

launch any legal avenues that are available to them.

That

was really the point we were trying to make here is to make sure that everybody

is aware what is happening with a particular contract so any legal avenues they

may have available to them are not diminished or compromised.

MR. CROSS:

Okay.

Connected to that then because I was looking to a couple of the next findings

or previous finding that says no claims had been filed in the period subsequent

to this in the progress payments to Humber Valley, at this point I think 62

per cent of the original work was complete.

So it would only be in that portion of work there would be claims

against, or would there be claims further to the amount of work that was left to

be completed because Humber Valley may have entered into a contract with someone

to do some of the future work for them but at this point they cancelled the

contract I not know; I am sort of puzzled, and I do not know who I am asking

this to

MR. PADDON:

Well, for us, Finding 5, at

the point in time when we did our report, it was really just a statement of

fact. The circumstances around how

companies may, in fact, get to the point of filing a mechanics' lien claim was

not really the issue; it was the fact that there were none at that time.

There were indications that people were looking at claims, but I do not

think there were any formal claims under the Mechanics' Lien Act.

MR. CROSS:

Okay.

I think

I will pick up a little later on. I

just wanted to conclude some of time that Mr. Peach had with a couple of these,

but I will reorganize to come back.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Cross.

The

Clerk advises that there is coffee in the Speaker's Boardroom which is straight

out through here. I think yesterday

there was some confusion about where we ought to have gone or could have gone.

We will break and come back probably around 10:50 p.m. or 10:55 p.m., and

we will resume with Mr. Murphy.

Recess

CHAIR:

Thank you.

We are

resuming, and we will continue with Mr. Murphy.

MR. MURPHY:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Chair.

It is

good to be back and to get a few questions answered.

I will start off on a couple of questions around the communications end

of things before I come back to the conclusions, and a couple of questions for

the Auditor General and anybody else who can answer them.

I want

to ask when it comes to the handling of this affair, when it comes to the

communications end of things; obviously we have an issue now that the minister

has decided that the issue is done.

He has come to a decision there is going to be a mutual agreement, obviously,

and this now has to be communicated.

To whom would he have sent that message to at that particular time, that

there was going to be a mutual agreement?

Because obviously a lot of people here had to go to work, number one.

Were

there lawyers who were going to be drawing up some form of a mutual contract?

Number two, I guess there would probably have to be notification to the

Premier's Office. Communications

people would be involved. Who were

the communications people who would have been involved here in this process?

MS COMPANION:

In the normal course of process, once a decision is made, prior to we would

prepare a decision note. We would

outline the pros and cons, alternatives, make some recommendations.

Once a decision is made then we would engage our communications people.

They would develop some key messages.

If a decision was significant that we needed to send an information note

to inform the Premier and the Clerk of the Executive Council prior to any

communications happening, then we would do that.

If it

was of a regular course of business, which the departments have authority to

make decisions, then we would develop a communications activity and we would

inform the central communications branch, and the Premier's Office would be

informed.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay.

Was there a communications person at that particular time who would have

been there with the minister Mr. McGrath at the time, and again, I am

sorry he is not here to answer the question.

Would he have, under normal processes, communicated this message to a

communications person so that it would be gone out to the various we will call

it target audiences in this

particular case people who would have had to be informed of it?

MR. GOSSE:

Normally, if a decision of

the magnitude of this one was made, there would be a series of people involved.

You would have the minister, you would have the deputy, you would have

the assistant deputy, most likely, who was responsible for that area in this

case it would have been me potentially the assistant deputy for Strategic and

Corporate Services, and a communications person.

They

would be involved in the initial stages of discussion and figuring out the path

forward. That is when the

communications person would be certainly aware that messages need to be

developed, and who is going to do the necessary steps to make sure that others

were informed who needed to be informed.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay.

Who was at that particular meeting at that particular time?

Once the minister made his decision, who was there at that meeting?

MR. GOSSE:

Once the decision was made,

I believe it was only the minister and the deputy.

The direction from the minister was to terminate the contract, get it

done that day. Besides the deputy,

after that it was essentially myself and the solicitor for the department.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay.

The deputy minister at the time would have been?

MR. GOSSE:

Brent Meade.

MR. MURPHY:

Brent Meade, and he is not

here to answer any questions either.

I would be curious too, if he would have communicated that sort of

message to a communications person so that they would be able to undertake some

responsibilities of informing the various people concerned.

Again, we do not know what happened in the dissemination of the message

and whether it would have gotten up to the Premier's Office.

Who was the communications person at the time there?

MR. GOSSE:

I do not remember if it was

Scott Barfoot or Carol Ann

MR. MURPHY:

Can we find out?

MR. GOSSE:

I can, yes.

MR. MURPHY:

I think it is kind of an

important piece of information here in order to find out the actual chain of

events. Who was the communications

person say in the Premier's Office who would have had the responsibility of

picking up that message too from the communications person at Transportation and

Works?

MS CAMPANION:

We will find out those two

individuals for you.

MR. MURPHY:

Yes.

Can we have that possibly for this afternoon, if we go into an afternoon

session, but as soon as possible anyway?

I think it is kind of important.

We have

a case here where we do not know if the message was communicated between the

Premier's Office and through a communications person, or would this message

possibly have been conveyed from Mr. Meade, for example, to the Premier's Office

directly after the

MS CAMPANION:

I will speak to that. No, that is not

the way we would normally do business.

The communication to the Premier's Office is through the Clerk of the

Executive Council

MR. MURPHY:

Right.

MS COMPANION:

and any communication from

the deputy minister would have been through the Clerk.

On this occasion that we are speaking of today, no communication went to

the Clerk.

MR. MURPHY:

No communication went to the

Clerk at all?

MS COMPANION:

No.

MR. MURPHY:

Would you view that as a

failure in communications that that message did not get through?

MS COMPANION:

Right.

That was identified as an omission.

The Clerk followed up on that quickly after the Auditor General's report

and met with deputy ministers to remind them of the importance of decision

notes, information notes of major decisions that would affect the Premier's

Office, or affect government in general, or the public in general and identify

the protocol to ensure that that happened.

MR. MURPHY:

That protocol is in place now?

MS COMPANION:

Right.

It is.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay.

Thanks for that.

I will

leave that for now, but see if you can come up with the names of the

communications people who were involved.

I might have further questioning on that later on this afternoon.

MS COMPANION:

We will.

MR. MURPHY:

I want to come back to the

conclusions now and ask a few questions around that.

Under Objective 2, on page 2 of the report, under progress payments, they

were not made in accordance with the terms of the contract for Project 1-12 and

lacked consistency and transparency.

I have just a couple of more questions around that, if I could.

They

are reviewed as unfair because the payments, for example, were made every two

weeks it was seen to be giving Humber Valley Paving an unfair advantage.

In your search, did you find any other times where the bimonthly payments

were made to any other companies in any other circumstance, or did you just look

at Humber Valley Paving and find that one example there?

Obviously there might have been others you ran into.

MR. PADDON:

Of course, our focus was on

Humber Valley Paving and this particular contract itself, and sort of some

tangent issues around that. We did

not see any other evidence of bimonthly payments.

There

were two issues that we raised here.

One was that the contract itself called for monthly payments.

This was inconsistent with the contract.

So that was one issue.

Whether that was a major issue, that is a question of judgment I suppose, but

the fact remains that it was not part of the original contract.

The

other issue was the one I had spoken about before the break, which was it has

the potential if somebody is aware that there is sort of an understanding

around bimonthly payments that other people are not aware, it could affect your

bids and it has the potential to impact sort of your relative position in the

bidding process. Our only point was

if your contract has monthly payments specified in it, well then that is what it

should be so everybody knows what the lay of the land is.

MR. MURPHY:

There does not seem to be

anything as regards wrongdoing done here.

It did not give anybody else (inaudible)

MR. PADDON:

Based on the discussions we

had, particularly with Mr. Gosse in this regard, the rationale for the bimonthly

payments was really to provide some measure of relief, if you wanted to call it,

just because the significance of the liquid asphalt as a cost and just to

facilitate some cash flow I guess.

It was probably done for the right reason, but at the end of the day it was

still inconsistent with the contract terms.

MR. MURPHY:

So I guess the question is

for Mr. Gosse: Any other tenders that were out there that were being addressed

by government, did other companies to get that advantage of the bimonthly

payments because of liquid asphalt costs?

MR. GOSSE:

No, there were not, but

there were no other companies in similar situations where they had massive

paving projects where there were millions of dollars of payments made each month

to them.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

There have been instances in

the past where you have made what we call an interim progress payment in the

middle of a month for a certain circumstance that happened in a project.

For example, a contractor pours a bridge deck, which is a big cost on a

bridge project, shortly after progress payments progress payments are normally

made at the twentieth of the month.

So if a contractor poured a bridge deck, for example, on the twenty-fifth it

would not be unheard of to pay for that bridge deck before the twentieth of the

next month.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

Because it is a substantial

outlay and most contractors have to pay their bills ten, fourteen days it

depends on the contractors and what arrangements they have with their suppliers.

MR. MURPHY:

I can understand with

asphalt because it was particularly costly in 2012-2013 up until

MR. GOSSE:

It is still costly.

MR. MURPHY:

Yes, it still is

MR. GOSSE:

Regardless of the price of

oil, asphalt did not come down.

MR. MURPHY:

Well it came down a little

bit, but we will get into that some other time.

Yes, I

can understand that. So it has been

done under

MR. GOSSE:

Certain

MR. MURPHY:

certain conditions where

there was a high amount of asphalt that was needed for a project or liquid

asphalt I should say, the binder.

It has been done for other cases like that.

MR. GOSSE:

Yes.

MR. MURPHY:

Okay.

So we are not seeing anything exceptional here

MR. GOSSE:

No.

MR. MURPHY:

but it was granted well,

it is still sixty kilometres of road and you are talking twenty-five loads.

It is an immense cost; I can understand that.

Thanks

for the clarification on that by the way.

CHAIR:

Mr. Murphy, before we go, if

you would hold that thought, I would like to go to a government member now

(inaudible) eleven minutes or so.

MR. MURPHY:

I am finished that section.

Thanks.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Thank you very much, Mr.

Chair.

Let me

state first, before we go forward that I, too, would like to see more witnesses

here this morning. I am not sure

who we could have had available or not here this morning, but some of the

questions are being asked and there are answers that cannot be given.

So I, too, would like to be able to see if we had more people here to

answer the questions.

As a

member of the Public Accounts for the last seven years, most of our meetings

that we have done were a review of the Auditor General's report and the

recommendations of the Auditor General and what he has put forward to make

changes that should be made. That

is what we normally review under these hearings.

I commend the deputy minister for your opening statement of all the

recommendations that the Auditor General; you addressed every one of them.

That is usually what we do at most of these hearings, but again, there

are some questions that need to be answered and we need appropriate people to

answer those questions.

I want

to go back to the contract a little bit and the tender I know that on July 11,

Humber Valley Paving made a request for an extension of the contract.

At that time, what was the discussion?

Was it we were losing 'megadollars', was any of that involved; or was it

just look, we cannot do this, it is impossible because of the five weeks we have

lost; or how was the discussion at that time with Humber Valley Paving?

MR. GOSSE:

Not a lot of discussion, actually, other than the delays that were the result of

the fires because July 11, if I recall correctly, there were still fires

burning. It was not only in

Labrador; it was in Quebec as well.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Quebec, yes.

MR. GOSSE:

Of course, there is only one route, and the fires in Quebec actually stopped

some of the trucks as well.

So the

only issue no discussion of extra costs at that time other than challenges

they would have in getting the project finished, and a request to extend the

completion date into the following year.

We responded to that, I believe, sometime mid to late August and approved

the extension although we had verbally agreed to it before that time.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Contracts that are done on

the Trans-Labrador Highway, obviously the distances are huge; you are looking at

hundreds and hundreds of kilometres out to be able to do this

section and that

section. With looking at the

Labrador climate in the wintertime and I know just from experience down at the

Torbay Bypass Road, which I tormented you a lot about, there was a plant set up.

It had to be all set up and it was a big operation just to bring all that

in and put it there, and then there was a major concern that they wanted to get

it out of there before the winter months came.

there a major cost to the actual set up of these plants and stuff like that?

So, my question is around if you do a project such as on the

Trans-Labrador Highway and it is in such a remote area, hundreds of kilometres

away from everything, obviously a plant has to be set up, all this stuff has to

be set up, and I do not know if they decided to leave it there during the winter

or do they take it out what is the cost of something like that?

MR. GOSSE:

They would not have

demobilized their asphalt plants for the winter.

They would have winterized it and left it in place for the following

year.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

Normally to set up one of

those plants it is, ballpark, about a week to set it up, so it is a week's

labour plus the equipment used to set it up.

It is a substantial cost to setting up an asphalt plant.

On an eighty kilometre paving project, they would either have two plants

or they would move it once. They

would not try to haul it is cheaper to move the plant than haul asphalt.

MR. K. PARSONS:

So they have a lot of these

mobile plants now that they can move in and out, is that the way it works?

MR. GOSSE:

They have mobile plants

well, they are mobile, but it takes a week to set it up.

It would probably be on seven or eight tractor trailer loads of material.

It is a big set-up.

The

same would go then for their crushing operations as well; that is another

set-up.

MR. K. PARSONS:

A question for the Auditor

General: When you said in the report about the two tenders coming out and

closing on the one day, did you look at the other bidders?

Were all the other bidders bidding on both projects or was it just the

one?

MR. PADDON:

We did not look at the other

bidders.

MR. K. PARSONS:

There were five other

bidders, I believe.

MR. PADDON:

Yes, but whether they bid on

both I could not tell you right at the moment.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

Granted, it is not considered a bundle.

It would not be considered a bundle, but a lot of times when you look at

people bidding if they get two the price of the bid on the first one, if you

can bid low enough on that and low enough to get two of them, it would be really

good for the company.

I do

not know if Mr. Gosse can answer that question or not because it was interesting

to see the difference between the bid that Humber Valley received and the second

bid was almost $5 million. I was

wondering, was that a factor? Would

that be a reason why you open two of them on the one day or put them out the

same time for basically the same area?

MR. GOSSE:

There are pros and cons to

closing big projects on the same day versus opposite days.

In this particular case here we actually had a request from a contractor,

not Humber Valley Paving, to close both on the same day because they were keenly

interested in if they had to mobilize to Labrador it had to be worth their

while, so they wanted to have a real good run at both projects.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

There are times, as you

said, Mr. Parsons, that if you close projects on opposite days and a losing

contractor on the first day really wants work then he sharpens his pencil good

for the second day and lowers his prices.

It can work both ways, if it is in an isolated area like Labrador and

some will need to make it worthwhile to go there and it also gives them the

opportunity of combining, for want of a better term, their mobilization cost.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

If they get both projects, they only have to move the gear up there once,

basically.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Once, yes.

MR. GOSSE:

So they will see economies on that that would be reflected in their bids in an

effort to get the work.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes.

Do you know if all the bidders bid on both (inaudible)?

MR. GOSSE:

I can get that list. I do not have

them right here.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes, okay, because when I

look at the bids, the first bid is $21,582,000, and if you look at the fifth

bidder, the number five person, they were at $45 million.

When I looked at this I said, wow, there is a huge range in the

difference. Even from first to

second, it was $5 million on a $20 million project.

That seemed to be very, very high to me.

Is there a difference in why the bids are so different?

I am just asking the question, because

MR. GOSSE:

Yes. I can only surmise as to how

it got there, but Humber Valley Paving was already mobilized in Labrador.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, so they had

MR. GOSSE:

They had other projects that they were working on.

So that would give them a competitive advantage because they already have

their gear there.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay, yes.

Auditor

General, your assumption was that two of them should not be opened or done on

the one day. What is your

rationale?

MR. PADDON:

I guess really our suggestion was that the department should consider whether it

is appropriate to have them done on the same day, particularly in a circumstance

where you have large contracts. I

recall during the interview with Mr. Gosse he had indicated that by and large

these projects in Labrador were some of the largest paving projects that the

department had let, just by their very nature, and the location.

I guess

the concern was that because of the size of the individual projects, if you have

one contractor who is successful on both but may stretch their capacity to deal

with both, you may end up running into problems just as an administrator, as

government, in terms of dealing with a contractor then who may have stretched

themselves a little too far.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. PADDON:

That was the point we were trying to make.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes, okay.

The point which Mr. Gosse is making, that sometimes if they think they

can get both of them then the bids will come down a little lower than the way it

is. So maybe that is the way the

bids work.

I just

want to get back to a little bit about Minister McGrath at the time and his

decision to, what I call rush the decision.

Your experience of thirty years will probably tell you you are after

dealing with a lot of politicians over the years and the importance of getting

projects done on time. The options

that were available to the department, whether it be cancelled or a third party

come in and take over the contract or whatever, what do you see to be a better

option or is there no better option, or do you look at everything?

Because sometimes when it goes back to retendering, and I know this

through personal experience, that when a bid comes in too high and it goes back,

it could be delayed for a year or two years.

What we

have done this year, even in my district two years ago the bid was way too

high. This year I bundled with a

neighbouring and the bid came in.

There were more bidders and stuff like that.

I just want to know what your experience is of how this process what do

you think of the process?

MR. GOSSE:

I have kind of lost track of

your question.

MR. K. PARSONS:

My question basically is by

bundling, by taking this tender and saying, okay, the best way to get this

completed on time would be ?

MR. GOSSE:

The best way of getting this

completed on time and of getting the best price for getting the work completed

was doing exactly what we did, including it with other work, because this was an

isolated

section in the middle of Labrador.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Say, for example, to go back

and do sixty kilometres obviously, when contracts come out they look at the

amount of work that is there, and 61 per cent of this work was already done.

Would it be difficult to get someone to go in and do that at the same

similar price that you were looking at?

MR. GOSSE:

In my opinion, it would be impossible to get someone to do it at the same price.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

The best way of completing

it was doing it as we did it and putting it with a much bigger piece of work

because now it is of interest to a contractor to get that bigger piece of work.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

Included with this one,

besides the sixty kilometres, was another eighty kilometres of full paving

heading down the southern part of the TLH from Goose Bay South, and there was

work in Goose Bay as well.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes, I was just using my own

personal experience. That is what I

was explaining. You know that

sometimes when you bundle it seems like you get more bidders, better price, and

stuff like that.

CHAIR:

Mr. Osborne.

MR. OSBORNE:

Thank you.

Just on

that note before I move on to where I was going to go with the questioning.

Mr.

Gosse, you had indicated that the best approach was for the department to do

exactly what the department had done.

I just want to ask the Auditor General, because I know in your review of

the possible options, one of the options was to pay the claims that Humber

Valley Paving had made against government.

Mr.

Gosse, what is the status of the claims that Humber Valley Paving had made

against government? Have any of

those been paid?

MR. GOSSE:

On Project 1-12 or overall?

MR. OSBORNE:

Overall.

MR. GOSSE:

There are still two

outstanding claims that we thought we had agreements on, and they are

legitimate. They were for extra

work. There was a differing in

opinion of what the true extra cost was to the contractor.

We settle claims, legitimate claims all the time, and it is not uncommon

to deny a claim that we feel is not legitimate.

Then contractors of course have the option of taking us to court, and

some will do that. We will take on

those battles when it is right to do so.

In this

case here, there were claims totalling on two projects, from 2010 that had just

finished that year they were started in 2011 and finished in 2013 claims

totaling roughly, in round numbers, $600,000.

We had reached an agreement and we did our documentation, our analysis

and documented everything. We had

our consultant who was looking after the work document it.

We made offers on both of those of about, one was $94,000-and-change and

one was $95,000-and-change. Humber

Valley Paving had originally accepted those and then their board of directors

withdrew the acceptance.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

So on

the other claims that you say were legitimate, I believe and the Auditor

General can correct me if I am wrong, but when I read the report there was no

analysis or no consultation with Humber Valley Paving as to whether the

legitimate claims, if they had been paid, whether that would have been enough to

convince Humber Valley Paving to go back into Labrador.

Is that correct Mr. Paddon?

MR. PADDON:

Yes, that was the point we

made. Well, the complete point was in the fullness of time had it been available

to conduct the analysis that may be something the department could have explored

with Humber Valley.

acknowledge that Humber Valley was looking for more money to go back to

Labrador. In order to pay more

money there would have to be some legitimate reason for the department to do

that if a contract was in place. If

there were legitimate claims that were being I guess considered, that may have

been an option to go down that road, but given the amount of time that was

available that was not something that was done.

MR. OSBORNE:

If that option had been

explored, Mr. Gosse, with Humber Valley Paving, and we understand that it was

not through the findings of the Auditor General's report, but there were

legitimate claims.

MR. GOSSE:

There were two legitimate

claims that we had made offers on that were accepted by Humber Valley Paving.

Right around this time or prior to that, one of them was accepted prior

to this that were subsequently rejected by the board of directors for Humber

Valley Paving. We had made offers

on those two claims that were legitimate.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Why

were they rejected? Were they

looking for additional money?

MR. GOSSE:

I cannot answer that honestly, I cannot answer that.

They had originally accepted them and it was all documented as to where

the justification for those claims.

I mean, we knew there was extra done.

We knew there was something owed to Humber Valley Paving.

MR. OSBORNE:

So, if you were able to

reach an agreement with them on that, in the fullness of time, if that option

were explored, was there a possibility that the work could have been done

cheaper than it was done when it was retendered if Humber Valley Paving had gone

back to Labrador to do the work?

Because that was one of the options Humber Valley had presented to the

department there were two. One

was that they get out of the contract; two was that they receive additional or

some compensation and they would go back and complete the contract.

Is that correct?

MR. GOSSE:

Partly just let me clarify. The

extra payment they were looking for to go back to Labrador referred back to the

$2 million we talked about earlier this morning.

Those two claims were on different projects and had nothing to do with

1-12.

The

extra money they were looking for was the $2 million.

To me, it is a number they picked out of the air and said this is what we

need, this is what our losses are, and that is what we want to be paid for.

So there was no formal claim made for the $2 million.

On the

two legitimate ones the offers that we made on the two claims that we made

offers on were what we could rationalize as being the legitimate extra costs.

I do not know that we ever would have agreed to go beyond that on those

two claims. From the information we

had and from the analysis that we did and the analysis that our consultant did,

that was the maximum that we would go to on those two claims.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

The

Auditor General, on page 43, they found that there was no evaluation or

discussion with HVP as to the amount of additional resources it may have taken

to allow them to return. Claims

related to Project 139-10 and 140-10 were being negotiated.

There was evaluation whether a settlement of these claims would have been

sufficient to allow HVP to return to Labrador.

So, is

the Auditor General correct in that, or are you correct in what you are saying

there?

MR. GOSSE:

I think it is a combination of both.

I do not think either one of us is wrong.

We could not evaluate, nor would we try to tie two or three different

contracts together it is difficult to do that.

I do not know if you can do it, from a legal perspective.

We deal with it contract by contract by contract.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. PADDON:

(Inaudible).

MR. OSBORNE:

Sorry, go ahead.

MR. PADDON:

I think that sort of goes to the point that we were trying to make.

There is certainly uncertainty surrounding this, as Mr. Gosse is saying.

Because of the shortness of the time, there was no attempt to consider

whether that was a viable option. I

think this is really the issue that we are trying to get at: Because everything

was compressed into that seven-and-a-half or four-hour time frame, you do not

really get to explore an option that, at the end of the day, may not have been a

realistic option, but at least you could have fully considered it and say no.

MR. OSBORNE:

I mean, the reality is

Humber Valley themselves did put forward two options to the department: either

out of the contract, or negotiate an additional settlement.

We would have known the answer to that question in the fullness of time

if the department had, in fact, negotiated with Humber Valley and we do not

know whether or not that would have been a less expensive option than

retendering as a bundled contract because that negotiation did not take place.

Is that correct?

MR. GOSSE:

In the fullness of time, we

would have had time to consider any claim that they made for the delays and

back to the $2 million again, there was no justification to increasing the

offers on the previous two settlement offers based on the information we had.

To me, it would be improper to pay them for something that they did not

do or did not deserve on two other contracts to have them come back to work on a

third one.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

When

you provided evidence to the Auditor General, did you make these comments at

that time?

MR. GOSSE:

I do not recall.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay, because there is a bit

of a contradiction.

MR. GOSSE:

We did talk about the claims

on 139 and 140, no question.

Whether we tied the two of those together with 1-12, I do not recall that

conversation. That does not mean it

did not happen.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

I do not recall reading anything about what you just said in the

findings.

MR. GOSSE:

There was no analysis done

between the two claims that were made and we could legitimize in relation to

1-12.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

The claim on 1-12 that was

not settled was the one that was never formalized, notionally put forward by

Humber Valley Paving to be $2 million.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

I am

going to come back to this issue because I do have several more questions on

this particular issue. Brad Power

is now the Communications director for Transportation and Works.

You were not in the department at the time of this?

MR. POWER:

I was not, no.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

To the

Auditor General, did you interview the Communications director at that

particular time?

MR. PADDON:

No, we did not.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

Just

for the record, Mr. Chair, if we do have an additional meeting, based on my

motion earlier, I think the Communications director at that time should perhaps

be called as well.

CHAIR:

Do we know that person's

name?

MR. MURPHY:

I think they are looking for

that now.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay.

MS COMPANION:

The Director of Communications at the time was Scott Barfoot, and he currently

works with the Communications Branch with the Executive Council.

We were

also asked to find the person in the Communications Branch who this

communication would have gone to, and it would have been Milly Brown.

MR. OSBORNE:

Okay, thank you.

CHAIR:

Mr. Osborne, we should go to

a government member now.

MR. OSBORNE:

My time is up already?

CHAIR:

It is up

MR. MURPHY:

Time flies when you are

having fun, Tom.

CHAIR:

Unless you continue with the

same line of questioning, but I thought you arrived at a conclusion.

MR. OSBORNE:

Well, no, I am going to come

back to that. We are going to be

here for a week, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Well, no, Mr. Osborne, you

are the last person that I can favour with time, being with same party.

government member, please.

MR. HUNTER:

Yes, I have a question.

I will get back on the liquid asphalt, because it seems to be a lot of

input by the AG there. On page 32

of the AG's report: The Assistant Deputy Minister, Transportation branch

originally approved bi-weekly progress payments related only to the liquid

asphalt payments for Labrador projects.

Was

that asphalt already used or was it tracked so that we know that it was gone to

the particular job that it was supposed to go to, or just the company decided to

store it or use it wherever they want to use it?

How was it tracked?

MR. GOSSE:

We pay for liquid as it goes into the asphalt and it is incorporated into the

work. So that would have been done

biweekly instead of monthly, per the normal.

So, only what was incorporated into the work in that two-week period was

paid for, not what was delivered.

MR. HUNTER:

So there was an inspector on

site that said yes, this two loads of asphalt was used on this site and that is

what

MR. GOSSE: We

have inspectors on site every (inaudible)

MR. HUNTER: So

what you paid for is what was used?

MR. GOSSE:

What was paid for is what was used.

MR. HUNTER:

If it was not used at that

particular time, were there still payments made for liquid asphalt?

MR. GOSSE:

No. They were only paid for what

was used in that two-week period.

MR. HUNTER:

In the next year when they

had to send back the twenty-five loads, there was no consideration given to any

payments of liquid asphalt

MR. GOSSE:

Absolutely not.

MR. HUNTER:

because it was not used.

MR. GOSSE:

Correct.

MR. HUNTER:

So before that, it was paid

but was it strange, or is this unusual for an assistant deputy minister to

sign off on those kinds of payments, or is that the norm?

MR. GOSSE:

I do not think so. It is a

contractual issue that I felt I had the authority to do.

MR. HUNTER:

Okay, that was one question

that I had there that was still bothering me.

Going back earlier with the options and I know some of the questions

were already asked here, but it still seems unusual that right at the beginning

when it was known that the contract wanted to be cancelled there was not an ASAP

meeting to discuss the options.

In your

point of view, at the time, there was no other way that this project could

proceed with Humber Valley Paving because they wanted out; or did you just give

up on trying to discuss an option with Humber Valley Paving; or was it you want

out, we will give you out?

MR. GOSSE:

The indication at the time

was that Humber Valley Paving, on that day, was not going back to do any more

work, and that the direction from the minister was to terminate the contract.

MR. PEACH:

Mr. Chair, I can use up the

rest of the time, for sure.

CHAIR:

Mr. Peach.

MR. PEACH:

First of all, Mr. Chair, I

have to say that this is the second day now that we have been in sections where

we do not have the witnesses across the way to ask the questions, so I am

struggling to get questions that I want to ask as to what I would have asked if

other people were here.

I just

have a couple of questions on staggering tender dates.

Staggering the tender dates, would that cause a monetary cost to the

department, like closing dates?

MR. GOSSE:

It can work either way.

As I said earlier, in some cases, staggering your closing date will cause

a contractor that was unsuccessful up to that point to perhaps do a better

price. In some cases, closing them

on the same day will allow a contractor to avail of combining or thinking he can

combine some of his mobilization costs and reduce his costs that way.

It can work either way.

There are pros and cons to both.

MR. PEACH:

I just want to touch a bit

on the bonds. Earlier you mentioned

that the contractor did show on site when it reopened.

Default called bonds, was there any claims under the default bonds do you

know? They requested to have the

contract cancelled. Once the

contract was cancelled if they never showed up on site, then there could be a

claim put in, if I understand it correctly.

Maybe

we should ask the AG to give us some insight on the bonds, how it works, because

I am not 100 per cent sure. I was a

mayor for ten years, but we always had bonded clerks and things like that.

I do not know if it worked in the same way or not so I wondered because

it mentions three different kinds of bonds there.

MR. PADDON:

I would suggest that Mr. Gosse is probably better positioned to talk about the

bonds.

MR. PEACH:

Well, Mr. Gosse either or.

CHAIR:

Maybe even legal counsel

probably would be quite familiar with the bonding process.

MR. PEACH:

Yes, well, I do not know who

the question could be directed at, but I just

MR. GOSSE:

There are essentially two bonds, not three.

MR. PEACH:

Okay.

MR. GOSSE:

One is a Performance Bond, and that is, for all intents and purposes, an

insurance policy for, in this case, government to make sure work gets done.

The other one is a labour and materials bond, and that protects suppliers

to the project.

The way

a Performance Bond works both bonds are valued at 50 per cent of the original

contract cost. So in this case,

about $9.5 million each. The

Performance Bond, if you call the bond, the Performance Bond will cover

additional costs to get the work done that was in the original contract.

It will not cover extra costs or extra work.

It will not cover extra quantities.

It does not cover anything that has already been paid for.

The labour and materials is again, in this case, about $9.5 million, 50

per cent of the original contract cost.

That will cover anything, payments due to suppliers, or providers of

labour that the contractor does not pay.

Both of

those have a limitations period identified in the bond.

For the labour and materials, from the time that the goods were provided,

or the materials were provided, or the time that the labour was provided, those

service providers or labour providers have 120 days to make a claim.

In the

case that we are talking about here, the termination date of the contract was

not the governing date; it was the date that work was last done.

It is incumbent, I think, upon the suppliers, both of materials and

labour, to be aware of what their responsibilities are when they are doing work.

By the

time that this contract had been terminated by the department and Humber Valley

Paving, the 120-day time period had expired.

So, anybody making a claim under the labour and materials bond had no

recourse anyway. On the Performance

Bond, it only protected government, and by mutually agreeing to the termination

it basically voided anything that we would have had to claim under the

Performance Bond anyway.

I do

not know if Todd can expand anymore on that, or add more insight; but, from the

contract point of view, that is how I see it.

MR. PEACH:

That leads me up to the next

question there under Finding 21 on page 49.

It says, The Department did not pursue the option of calling the

Performance Bond because this risked Project 1-12 not being completed in 2014

and would have negatively impacted HVP.

How?

MR. GOSSE:

By calling the Performance

Bond, we would basically be putting Humber Valley Paving in default.

As I said earlier, up until this point in time it was our view and our

opinion, and based on the knowledge we had, Humber Valley Paving was still a

viable, functioning company. We did

not want to put them out of business for reasons of competition and for reasons

of putting 300 people out of work.

Calling the bond would have made it very difficult for them to get bonding in

the future; hence, it effectively would have likely put them out of business.

The

other thing to remember here, had we called a bond fourteen months ago we

called a bond on another project.

To this date, we do not have an answer from the bonding company.

Had we waited to call the bond, work would not have been done last year.

It would not be finished now.

We would still be waiting on the bonding company to do an analysis and

likely come back at the end of the day and deny it anyway.

In the

one instance where we called a bond, we have carried on and completed work

ourselves because it was essential that we do so.

It was on a bridge repair so it had to be done, but fourteen months later

we still do not have an answer from the bonding company as to whether they are

going to accept the claim or not.

We have

had experience with bonding companies.

We knew where we were headed.

Had we called a bond on thi