Manitoba Hansard — 13 June 1972 (Sitting 114, 29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-114

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XIX No. 114 2:30p.m., Tuesday, June 13th, 1972. Fourth Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Affiliation ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Manitoba ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin Place, Winnipeg 12 BIRTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Manitoba BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 BRANDON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 2228 Princess Ave., Brandon, Man. BURROWS Hon. Ben Hanuschak N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 CHARLESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg 20 CHURCHILL Gordon Wilbert Beard lnd. 148 Riverside Drive, Thompson, Man.

CRESCENTWOOD Cy Gonick N.D.P. 1 · 174 Nassau Street, Winnipeg 13 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 EMERSON Gabriel Girard P.C. 25 Lomond Blvd., St. Boniface 6 FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow N.D.P. Cranberry Portage, Manitoba FORT GARRY L. R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg 9 FORT ROUGE Mrs. lnez Trueman P.c. 179 Oxford St., Winnipeg 9 GIMLI John C. Gottfried N.D.P. 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli Man. GLADSTONE James Robert Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Manitoba INKSTER Sidney Green, Q.C. N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox N.D.P. 244 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Manitoba LA VERENDRYE Leonard A. Barkman Lib. Box 130, Steinbach, Man. LOGAN William Jenkins N.D.P. 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg 3 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Manitoba MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Box 185, Morris, Man. OSBORNE lan Turnbull N.D.P. 284 Wildwood Park, Winnipeg 19 PEMBINA George Henderson P.C.

Manitou, Manitoba POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski N.D.P. 361 Burrows Ave., Winnipeg 4 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. Room 248, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 RADISSON Harry Shafransky N.D.P. 4 Maplehurst Rd., St. Boniface 6 RH IN ELAND Jacob M. Froese Soc. Cr. ·· Box 40, Winkler, Manitoba RI EL Donald W. Craik P.C. 2 River Lane, Winnipeg 8 RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, Q.C. P.C. 250 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. lnglis, Manitoba ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Manitoba ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 RUPERTSLAND Jean Allard N.D.P. 602- 245 Provencher Ave., St.Boniface 6 ST. BONIFACE Hon. L ;urent L. Desjardins N.D.P. 357 Des Meurons St., St. Boniface 6 ST. GEORGE William Uruski N.D.P. Box 580, Arborg, Manitoba ST. JAMES Hon. A.H. Mackling, Q.C. N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ST. JOHNS Hon. Saul Cherniack, Q.C. N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson N.D.P. 23- 500 Burnell St., Winnipeg 10 ST. VITAL D. J. Walding N.D.P .. 31 Lochinvar Ave., St. Boniface 6 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam N.D.P. Ste. Rose du Lac, Manitoba SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley N.D.P.

Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 SOURIS-KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Manitoba SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 STURGEON CREEK Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg 12 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Manitoba THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde N.D.P. 228 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 THOMPSON Joseph P. Borowski N.D.P. La Salle, Manitoba. TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley N.D.P. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Manitoba WELLINGTON Philip M.

Petursson N.D.P. 6B1 Banning St., Winnipeg 10 WINNIPEG CENTRE J. R. (Bud) Boyce N.D.P. 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg 3 WOLSELEY

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, June 13, 1972 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 2917 MR; SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 14 students of Grade 9 standing of the St. John's High School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Sanders. This school is located in the Constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster. We also have 8 students of Grade 9 standing of the Sansome Junior High School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Siemens.

This school is located in the Constituency of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. There are 21 students of Grade 11 standing of the Amaranth Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Whiteway. This school is located in the Constituency of the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. And we have 65 students of Grade 12 standing of the Butterworth School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Rae, Mr. Braemer and Mrs. Lord. This school is located in the Constituency of the Honourable Member for Logan. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you here today. MR.

SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. REPORTS BY STANDING COMMITTEES MR. JAMES WALDING (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the second report of the Standing Committee on Private Bills. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Private Bills begs leave to present the follow- ing as their second report: Your Committee has considered Bills: (No. 31) -A n Act for the Relief of Ross Meroslaw Kozak and Arlene Kozak. (No. 33) -An Act to amend

An Act to Incorporate Co-operative Credit Society of Manitoba Limited. (No. 36) -An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate the United Way of Greater Winnipeg. And has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your Committee has also considered Bill (No. 60) -An Act to incorporate Transcona Country Club, and has agreed to report the same with amendment. Your Committee also recommends that the time for receiving petitions for Private Bills be extended to the 21st day of July, 1972, and that the time for presenting Private Bills to the House be extended to the 28th day of July, 1972. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements. The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli that the time for receiving petitions for Private Bills be extended to the 21st day of July, 1972; and that the time for presenting Private Bills to the House be extended to the 28th day of July, 1972.

MR, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR, SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements; Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, it is my desire to make a ministerial statement dealing with the unemployment situation in the Province of Manitoba. I have copies for you, Sir, the Leader of the Opposition and I have another two or three copies, Mr. Speaker, that I will table. If any honourable member happens to be interested, then I'm sure that they will be available to them. Mr.

Speaker, members of the Assembly, I am pleased to announce that for the second

2918 June 13, 1972 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• month in a row Manitoba has the lowest unemployment rate in Canada, In May 1972 Manitoba had an actual unemployment rate of 3. 2 percent, almost half of the national average of 6. 2 percent. In May 1972, regretfully, there were still 13,000 Manitobans unemployed, This is a reduction of 5, 000 over the month previous, namely April 1972, a reduction of 3,000 over the same month in 1971. Manitoba's labour force increased by 14,000 in May 1972 over April of 1972, and was 11,000 higher than May of a year ago. This means, Mr.

Speaker, that 19,000 more people were employed in Manitoba in May than were employed in April of 1972 and 14,000 more people were employed in May 1972 than in May 1971. Mr. Speaker, this is an indication that despite prophecy of doom and gloom Manitoba's labour force is increasing at a far more rapid pace than the national average and I am sure that honourable members will now agree that the policies of this government have a direct influence on the forward thrust in the field of employment in Manitoba.

Contrary to assertions by some political parties, there is no evidence that a "mass exodus" of Manitobans is helping to hold down our unemployment rate. Within the past two weeks Statistics Canada released provincial population estimates for April 1972 which showed that Manitoba's population increased by 2,000 in the three months from January 1st, 1972. Both the large growth and employment shown by the Labour Force Survey and the population estimates by Statistics Canada point to an economy much healthier than is the Canadian norm. This is not to say that unemployment is as low as it should be.

It is still far too high. This government intends to do whatever it can within its capability to further reduce the incidence of unemployment in Manitoba, and I think all Manitobans should be proud of the effort of this New Democratic Government in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, in responding to the Honourable the Minister of Labour's statement let me hastily assure the Honourable Minister as well as his colleagues that we along with himself and members of his government most assuredly share the good news of the employment situation with him.

We agree, of course, as he indicated in his closing remarks that as long as there are unemployed there is still work to be done. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that we look forward to in the immediate future that at least another unemployed in this Chamber will soon be employed back in the ranks of the Cabinet, and that will further reduce the ranks of the unemployed. As I would also have to say that certainly for the past little while those who have an aversion for politics are surely all em ployed in the constituenc y of Wolseley at this particular time.

Whether or not that had an influence in the figures just mentioned, that may be somewhat facetious.

All in all, certainly I was - I want to just reiterate the position of our party, the position of the Opposition that we are very pleased to hear the figures as stated, We have some indi cation in those figures that the private sector, despite some of the obstacles placed in its way, are indeed fulfilling their responsibility in providing employment opportunities and jobs in this province and we look forward t� seeing even the figure of unemployed that still exists in the province to be lowered still more in the future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H.

JORGENSON (Morris): I am getting somewhat alarmed at the tendency that seems to be permeating the government at this time to use this particular opportunity, rather than to announce policy, which is the purpose of this particular item on the Order Paper - Ministerial Statements. They are intended to provide the government with an opportunity to give the House statements of policy, course of direction, or information dealing with govern ment policy and there's an opportunity to respond to that.

The Minister of Labour is choosing this opportunity simply to trumpet something that can be done on an occasion that is more suitable such as on his estimates or during the consideration of a Bill or something like that. I am not going to take objection to the statement at this time but I think that we want to be careful that the purpose of this particular occasion is to announce statements of government policy and I could hear nothing in the way of a statement of government policy on the statement that was made by the Minister at this time. MR.

SPEAKER: On the point of order, I would suggest the honourable member can very well raise that matter when the Rules Committee meets. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order raised by my honourable friend, the Member for Morris -- and I can understand why he would rise on a point of order at such good news for Manitoba, notwithstanding the Wolseley by-election -- but if my honourable

June 13, 1972 2919 (MR.

PAULLEY cont'd) •.••• friend had been listening, he would have detected in the announcement that I made, reference to the policy of this government, and we suggest that be cause of the policy and the policies of this government, Manitobans are proud to be able to say from coast to coast that we do have the smallest ratio of unemployment in all of Canada, I want to say insofar as the point of order of the Honourable Member for Morris --(lnterjection)- l'm speaking on a point of order so just sit down on your fanny for a little while, You didn't like my announcement either, and it may be because of some relative I don •t know.

But, Mr. Speaker, I have had on a number of occasions, to announce in this House that there were increases in the number of unemployed in Manitoba and I did not hesitate to inform the House, Mr. Speaker, on those occasions and they were received with glee by the Opposition.

The boot is on the other foot today and the Opposition do not like it if they are only being honest, So I say on the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Morris, as he is so often ill-informed on the rules of procedure and the contents of ministerial statements in this House, we are happy with the reduction if my honourable friend is not. MR . SPEAKER: As I indicated, the point of order -- order, please. Order! As I indi cated, the point of order can very well be discussed in the rules committee. Ministerial Statements; Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Oral questions.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTION PERIO D MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q .C. (Leader of the Opposition)(River Height s): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health and Social Development. I wonder whether he can indicate to the House whether instructions have been given from his department to the Minister of Public Works for the renovations of the old Grace Hospital? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health)(Springfield) : Mr.

Speaker, there is a very close working relationship between the Department of Health and Social Development and the Department of Public Works pertaining to the facilities just recently acquired, the old Grace Hospital site, and other facilities that are to be constructed by government servic es. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, if the Attorney-General can contain himsel f-I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of Public Works. I wonder if he can indicate to the House whether he's received any instructions for the renovation of the old Grace Hospital from the Department of Health and Social Development. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HON. RUSSELL DOERN (Minister of Public Works)(Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, we have in fact made some renovations to the old Grace and we are now in close contact with the Depart ment for the development of the rest of the program. MR. SPIV AK: A supplementary question. I wonder if the Minister of Public Works can in -dicate whether any preliminary plans and specificat ions are nOw being draftedby his dEJ_partment? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (Minister of Finance) (St, J ohns): Mr.

Speaker, in connection with these last series of questions, I am not sure whether the Honourable Leader of the Opposition was also in his general question asking questions in relation to some 17, I be lieve it is, houses that were acquired along with the old Grace Hospital, on the disposition of them, In that respect I can make a statement if indeed that is included in the Honourable Leader's question, MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

The Honourable Member for Morris, MR, JORGENSON: I should like to direct my question to the Attorney-General and ask him if he is going to be able to table the report of the Human Rights Commission dealing with an investigation into, I believe it was McGavin Toastmasters last winter as well as Canada Packers, and I believe there was one other I don't recall at the present time. I wonder if the Minister could advise the House whether there would be a tabling or if there is such a report from the Human Rights Commission, MR , SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General, MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable member will refer to the Act, he will know that the reports are made to the Minister and there's no provision for tabling of those reports in the House and they're not expected to be tabled in the House, MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . JORGENSON: I wonder if the Minister now would respond to the request I made to

2920 June 13, 1972 (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) ....• make those reports available- if they will be made avail able to the members of the House upon request. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the reports pursuant to the provisions in the Act are made to the Minister responsible to reporting to the House for the Act. They are confidential to the Minister upon which the Minister makes a decision, They are not to be tabled in the House, MR. JORGENSON: I wonder , Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister wo uld undertake to make a statement to the House dealing with the investigations that were carried on by the Human Rights Commission into those companies that I mentioned, If he objects to tabling the report perhaps he'll make a statement. MR, SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Minister will make such dispositions of those reports as he deems advisable. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable,Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honour able Minister of Labour.

My question is for the Honourable Minister of Labour. Could he in form the House what percentage of the labour force in Manitoba is female? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Well I don•t know, in answer to my honourable friend from Fort Rouge whether he wou ld even digest the facts if they were availed to him. Approximately, and I' m sorry I can•t give the figure precisely to my honourable friend, but I wo uld say that approximately 36. 4 percent of the labour force are women and 76.1 percent are males. --(Interject ion)-- You know, Mr.

Speaker, you know for the first time that he's been in this House, the Leader of the Opposition has even indicated he has some intelligence because he was able to add 36.4 and 76. 1 to come over 100 percent and these are the statistics of Statistics Canada of the average - and if my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition and his cohorts had remained silent until I had been able to explain -- this is the average over the 12-month period and it does vary from time to time. Again, Mr.

Speaker, at long last I have come to the conclusion that there is a spark of intelligence in the Leader of the Opposition's mind. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, MRS. TRUEMAN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister then inform us what percentage of the currently unemployed who are seeking employment are female? MR. PAULLEY: No, Mr.

Speaker, I'm sorry I haven't that precise information before me but I can indicate that there is a grow ing number of females who are interested in getting into the labour force in the Province of Manitoba and we are accommodating them to the best of our ability. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, a few days ago the Member for Morris put a question to me on wh ether or not the Manitoba Egg Producers Marketing Board had any undue influence or otherwise on the Ogilvie Company who he alleged was wi thdrawing from contracts arranged with a number of producers in the egg business.

I had a call from the company headquartered in Montreal to the effect that they were wondering in wh ose imagination, or in whose mind such an imaginative approach was conceived because they were not aware of any such undertakings and I would hope that the Member for Morris wh en he puts a question puts an honest question to me from this point on. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR, JORGENSON: My question was a perfectly straightforward one. I will not rise on a point of order or a question of privilege notwithstanding the imputations in the Minister's statement.

I simply asked the Minister if the government had any intention of phasing out those contracts that are currently in existence between certain egg producers in this province and the Ogilvie-Labatt Company. Now either the answer is yes or no and the Minister only himself can answer that question because he knows what the government policies are. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: The Member for Morris alleged that the company was indeed phasing out contracts and that somehow had something to do with the operations of the Manitoba Govern ment and the Board.

June 13, 1972 2921 MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. I do not think we desire a debate at this time on which is which. The question has been answered, the honourable member gave a . . . Order! The honourable member gave a clarification on a matter of privilege as to what his question was. I think we can leave it at that. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Is the government's intention to phase out contracts that currently exist between Ogilvie-Labatts and certain egg producers in this province before their normal expiry date ? MR. USKIW: No, Mr.

Speaker, but I want to indicate to the Member for Morris, I want to indicate to the Member for Morris that the Board has the powers to phase out contracts, or that is not to allow a renewal of a contract or extension of a contract in that the Board and the Government of Manitoba does not wish to allocate market quotas - large market quotas - to huge feed companies. In other words, we want to bring production back to the producers them selves and phase out the integration that has taken place over the last number of years. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. JOSE PH P. BOROWSKI (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minis ter of Labour in view of the statement he made in answer to the Member for Fort Rouge giving the number of females ... MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. Would the honourable member place his question. MR. BOROWSKI: I'm getting to it, Mr. Speaker. The number of females unemployed, I'm wondering if the Minister is within his rights and in fact whether he's not breaking the law by stating the number of females as he forbids employers to advertise male or female ... MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please.

I will indicate once more that during the question period the purpose of the question period is to obtain information and not to supply it to the House, and to be brief and terse. I cannot make any exceptions for any member in that regard. I wish the Honourable Member for Thompson would co-operate. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOR OWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I 'm not going to argue with you. I have a question to ask, I would hope you give me the courtesy of asking it. It may not be as short as you would like it but I can't help that. It requires me longer than some experts in this House.

I have another question for the Minister of Finance. Last week or two weeks ago the City of Winnipeg announced they were going to raise the bus fares for the old age pensioners. I'm wondering if the Minister of Finance could indicate whether he's made a grant to the City to prevent an increase of bus fares to the old age pensioners? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't quite agree with the premise that the City announced that it was going to increase.

There was a recommendation from the Board of Commissioners of the City to the City Council that they do increase transit fares. I discussed that with the official committee of the City, at which time I satisfied myself that there was no intention of increasing fares and consistent with that the government - and I informed the City to that effect - that the government was making a grant of $250, 000 to the City on the under standing that the City had already decided not to increase fares. On that basis there was an increase grant of a quarter of a million dollars. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson.

MR. BOROWSKI: A question for the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister of Health would consider making a monthly report in this Legislature giving us the welfare force in Winnipeg in the same glowing terms that the Minister of Labour gives the unemployment figures? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . TOUPIN: Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all this is a question that can't be decided by this government. This House does not sit 12 months a year and it would be kind of difficult to make a report each month.

There are, as you know, in the report submitted by the Depart ment of Health and Social Development a breakdown of the welfare rolls, those on social allowance, on a month to month basis. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: lV'r. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour. I wonder whether he can confirm to the House that within the last eight months, at one period, the report for the labour force indicated a higher labour force for Manitoba than 402, 000?

2922 June 13, 1972 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I did acknowledge some capabilities of my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition. I indicate that the labour force has increased for May over April of 14, 000; I did indicate that the labour force in Manitoba of May of 1972 over 1971 was a ratio of 11, 000 to 14, 000. Of course it's -- and I have been doing this constantly to this House while it's been in session. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I' m afraid the Minister of Labour misunderstood the question.

I wonder whether he could confirm to this House that Manitoba's labour force within the last eight months has been higher than 402,000? MR . PAULLEY: Manitoba's labour force grew to 402,000 in May; a seasonal rise of 14,000 over April and an 11, 000 increase over May 197 1. The number of employed rose by 19, 000 to 308. 000 in May, or 14, 000 higher than last year. Now I don't know if my honourable friend can conceive that the difference is 12 months and not eight months that he referred to. MR . SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, I'll try and frame the question another way.

Approximately six months ago I believe, and I'd like him to confirm this, he announced in this House ... MR . SPEAKER: Order, please.

Section D, Citation 171: "A question written or oral must not repeat in substance the question already answered or to which an answer has been refused." I think the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has tried on two occasions to elicit the answer. This is the third one. It's against the procedural rules. The Honourable Minis ter of Labour on the point? MR . PAULLEY: Yes, if you will permit me, Sir, --(Interjection)-- I beg your pardon?. -- (Interjection)-- I want to answer my honourable friend, Mr. Speaker.

Statistics are some times a little confusing and my honourable friend, if I understood him, to ask whether or not the 402, 000 was the highest number that we've had in the Province of Manitoba in the last eight months and I am pleased to be able to say that it is the highest in the whole of the 100 years - 102 years - of the existence of the Province of Manitoba. And if my honourable friend, Mr. Speaker, would like to listen to some precise figures I have them here now in front of me. That in 1958- 324, 000; in-- this is a 12 month average incidentally. In 1959- 325; 60- 334; 61- 341. MR .

SPEAKER: Order, please. I wonder if the Honourable Minister would table the document then everyone would can have it. MR . PAULLEY: Well, Mr. Speaker ... I would say .. . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please. I do believe the rules apply to answers as well as to questions and I think we should during the question period be short and brief. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Acting Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management.

I wo nder if he could tell the House if in his co�versations with Pan Arctic Oils regarding the prospect of a gas pipeline from the Arctic through Manitoba to eastern Canada, has he been able to deter mine if that pipeline corridor would include a road through from the northern border of Manitoba to the exit point of the pipeline? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Inchlstry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have not been able to determine that.

For one thing the matter is very preliminary and some of the concerns of the honourable members are rather premature in my opinion. Mr. Speaker, I can advise all honourable members that we have been in touch with the company and I believe the President will be here in a matter of two or three, four weeks perhaps. We have considerable information on the possible routes that are being considered and we have a number of people looking into the matter. But I simply state that some of the concerns of the honourable gentlemen are perhaps a bit premature. While I' m on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, as the Acting Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management I was asked a question a few days ago by the Honourable Member from Churchill on the policy with respect to commercial fishing licences for Lake Winnipeg. The question being, are they limited in number to that which was in force when the lake was closed for mercury pollution - those were his words. I can advise the honourable member that the number of fishing licenses being made available to fishermen, for this summer at least, on Lake Winnipeg is the same number that was made available in 68 or 69 prior to the

June 13, 1972 2923 (MR. EVANS cont'd) .. .. . lake closure. But I would stress it is for this summer and at the present time we are reviewing the policy with regard to the issuance of licences. A supplementary question was asked by the honourable member as to whether these licences might be made transferable and I can advise him that this matte r is also under review. As Minister of Industry I was as ked a question by the Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie whether any machinery at the James Bertram plant at The Pas had been sold and I' m advise d that the answer is negative. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. In respect to these discussions with Pan Arctic Oils and the Minister's reply regarding the roadway, could he tell the House if in fact the matter of the roadway has been discussed at all up to this point in the discussions? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Acting Mines and Resources. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I can only inform the honourable member and other mem bers of the House that various aspects of the entire program have been examined and obviously the question of roads.

I cannot say that I've dwelt on this matter myself but that is beside the point. I can tell you, as I said a moment ago, that several officials of the Department of Industry and Commerce as well as one or two in Resources have been quite concerned about the possible routes taken and all the implications involved, including the environmental questions. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. A supplementary? The Honourable Member for Brandon West. Sorry. MR . McGILL: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Is the Minister's Department co-operating in the aerial reconnaissance of the route at this time? MR . EVANS:Mr. Speaker,! don't know if he's talking - are you talking about the Depart ment ofindustry - oh you 're talking about the Department of Mines and Resources .I don't know to what degree we have responsibility to do work for private enterprise per se. I can look into that matter.

I think the implication is that we should co -operate in this particular matter, co -operation is always appreciated but! don't know to what degree we have a responsibility in this particular matter .But I'll look into it and see if I can provide you with more precise information, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR . J. R. (BUD) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): A question to the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker. Earlier the Minister indicated that a decision had been made relative to the houses acquired with the old Grace Hospital. I wonder if he would care to announce that policy to the House.

MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR , CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, there are some 17, 000 square feet of vacant land immediately north of the old Grace Hospital which in some parts includes the basement of a former building. It is the proposal that one-half of that 17, 000 square feet be used for additional parking facilities and the other half be turned into a recreation and r·est area for people who are inmates of the building itself.

However, there are also some, 17 I believe is the correct number, of homes including two vacant lots to the south of that building and I have already writt en to the City of Winnipeg offering some 12,000 square feet of land and the buildings on it, which consist of the southwest corner of the land taken, offering it to the city on the understanding that the city would con ver this 12, 00 square feet to recreational pur poses for the use of the co mmunity. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle- Russell): Thank you, Mr. Spea..l;:er.

My question is to the Honourable Acting Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Earlier he indicated that the same number of fishing licences would prevail this year as in 68 and 69. Could he indi cate to the House the percentage of reduction in quota for total fish on the lake in this coming year as compared to 68 and 69? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I don't have any detailed information on this at my finger- tips. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister

2924 June 13, 1972 (MR. SHAFRANSKY cont'd) ..... of Public Works. In view of the hot air that is emanating from members in the Opposition I just wondered when ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. I would sincerely request the honour able member to rephrase his question. The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Could the Minister of Public Works indicate to the House when he is planning to proceed to install proper air conditioning in the Legislative Building? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. OOERN: Mr.

Speaker, that's a question of policy but I would hope that something could be done in the next few years. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Is the government giving any consideration to the extension of Medicare coverage to include drugs and medicine for senior citizens during this session? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, while discussing the Estimates of the Department of Health and Social Development I did make reference to a policy that is the policy of this government to cover some elderly persons in this province so far as drugs and medical needs of these senior citizens, those that are in need, not necessarily on welfare, but those that are on the guaranteed annual income supplement, and I made reference to a figure of approximately 65, 000 in the Province of Manitoba. I hope to have a chance to give more details on this policy a little later on during the discussion of the estimates. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DA VID R. BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, my question would be to the Honour able Minister of Highways. While I realize the Riding Mountain National Park is Federal jurisdiction I wonder if he can inform the House if he is aware of a survey presently under way to reroute or construct a new road, a portion of No. 10 Highway through Riding Mountain National Park? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways): Mr.

Speaker, as the honourable member mentioned, it's naturally Federal jurisdiction and of course whatever the Federal authorities decide to do, whether they want to divert the road or construct a new one is entirely under their jurisdiction, and of course doesn't apply to the Department of Highways of Manitoba. MR. BLAKE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I was wondering if he was aware of the survey, if he can inform the House if this survey was going on or not? MR. BURTNIAK: Mr.

Speaker, I was aware that there was some work being done in the Clear Lake area long before I became the Minister of Highways-- as a matter of fact in the Department of Tourism I knew �f some surveys that were taking place. I wasn't quite sure whether it was for roads or whatever it would be but I knew there were certain surveys taking place. Mr. Speaker, while I' m on my feet, a week or so ago the Honourable Member for Assiniboia wanted to know in regard to Teleset locations in Manitoba, whether any work for Teleset will be done by local electrical contractors. In that respect I might say, Mr.

Speaker, that in the location of Be lair, Manitoba the total Manitoba work content on this job will amount to about $31, 000, or something like 3. 6 percent of the total job to be done by the Manitoba content, and at the Churchill site the content of the job being done by Manitoba companies will be about $18 ,616, or approximately 9. 3 percent of the job cost. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. JEAN ALLARD (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Resources.

Could he tell the House what happens to the fishing licences on Lake Winnipeg of those fishermen who are not fishing this year who were in 68/69, who have retired, who have died or something of that nature, and whether any other individuals would be able to get those licences?· MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EV ANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, this question hinges on a question asked earlier and a reply which I gave and I tried to make clear, but perhaps I omitted a

part in my reply, but I tried to make clear the licences are given to those people who held licences in 68/69 prior to. the closing of Lake Winnipeg for reasons of mercury pollution. These are not transferable

June 13, 1972 292 5 MR . EVANS cont'd) ... .. even to a son or a relative. Therefore because of attrition there will be a smaller amount of licences made available this summer for the summer fishing season than was the case in 68 or 69. So therefore the number of licences are therefor smaller than they were in 68 and 69. That number is smaller. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR . GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): To the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

In respect to the Pan Arctic pipeline coming through the Winnipeg area could the Minister advise what would be the potential market for gas pipeline in the Winnipeg area should it be able to service Metropolitan Winnipeg. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, that is a very broad question and it's very difficult to give a simple answer. As you lmow, the City of Winnipeg is serviced by a local utility which obtains its gas through the Trans-Canada Gas Pipeline System and if the Pan Arctic line should happen to come down through this

section of the province it's very difficult to say to what extent the local utility would be purchasing from that source as opposed to the existing source. We would be speculating of course but it would be very difficult -- it would be a very difficult matter to determine. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR . L. R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Honourable Minister of Labour.

In the employment totals that he offered a few moments ago I wonder if he could advise the House what percentage is made up by students on government-funded make-work programs for the summer? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: No, Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry I cannot give this information to my honourable friend because the statistics that I gave to the House this afternoon are compiled in Ottawa under the Statistics Bureau of the Government of Canada and they don't have that breakdown. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR . BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Resources. I wonder if the government is considering investing some money in this Pan Arctic Oil Company that's drilling off the Churchill coast through their newly set up mining exploration company -- Mineral Resources Corporation? MR , SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I have to give the usual answer which is that it's a question of policy and any policy decision will be announced in a matter of course. · MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the First Minister and ask him if he has had any response as yet from authorities in South Dakota to his offer of assistance in their current troubles? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, a message was left there with the Governor's office and I believe with the Director of their equivalent of Emergency Measures, a message in the nature of a standing offer to stand by to see if there was any way in which we might be able to be of assistance if we could obtain specification.

Thus far to my knowledge there has not been any direct response and the matter rests there for the time being. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. ORDERS OF THE DAY- SPEED-UP MOTION MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I intend to propose a resolution for the consideration of the House.

I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works, THAT for the remainder of the session, the House have leave to sit in the forenoon from 10:00 a. m. to 12:30 p. m.; in the afternoon from 2:30p.m. to 5:30p.m.; in the evening from 8:00p.m. and each sitting be considered a separate sitting, and have leave so to sit from Monday·to Saturday, both days inclusive, and the Rules with respect to the 10 :00 o'clock p. m. adjournment be suspended, and that government business take precedence over all other business of the House.

2926 June 13, 1972 l\1R. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? --(Interjection)- Is the Honourable Member for Morris trying to debate? The Honourable Minister of Labour. :M:R. PAULLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to explain --(Interjection)-- Pardon? My honourable friend, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Sour is- Killarney points out that while I was seated in --(Interjection)-- No that was at about 4:00 o'clock in the morning when the Honourable the previous Attorney-General, one Sterling Lyon, insisted on proceeding with the first reading of bills and I objected .. .

A MEMBER: That's history. :M:R. PAULLEY: That's history, that's correct, and I objected at that time. But I just want for the clarification of all new members of the House, the occasion on which I placed a red toque on· my head, and of course the Honourable Member for Churchill states quite properly that that was history. He was a supporter of the Conservative Government at that particular time and condoned that attitude of the then Attorney-General. However, Mr. Speaker, this is a resolution that is not unusual at this stage in the deliber ations of the House.

I frankly confess, for the benefit of my honourable friend the Member for Souris-K illarney, that I objected to any undue pressure by the government under this resolution to enact legislation. I did on one or two occasions while the Leader of the New Democratic Party at that particular time introduced an amendment or two to change the hours of sittings and I was overruled of course by the then Conservative majority in the House.

But when a discussion had taken place even I who objected at that particular time realized that the government had a responsibility and in the final analysis agreed with the general consensus, the general opinion of the government of the day, that a motion of this nature should at the appropriate time be complied with. --(Interjection)-- You'll do the same, Harry? Fine. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is a slight change in the hours of sitting proposed in the reso lution that I have just read in respect of the morning sitting. The morning sittings previously were called for 9:30 in the morning.

I suggest that 10:00 o'clock should meet the convenience of the members of the Assembly. I realize, for instance, Mr. Speaker, my friend the Member for Lakeside journeys between his domicile and here and I don't want him to have to get up any earlier under the new rules, or suggested rule, than he does at the present time, for instance, on Friday mornings, namely, 10:00 o'clock. I also want to say, Mr. Speaker, that it is no intention of the government to bring this rule into effect immediately.

The reason that I introduced it today was to give due notice to all of the members of the Assembly, as has been done in the past, that after the date or the timing of the estimates that there is the probability -- not possibility but probability -- of the suspension of the rules being brought into effect.

I give my undertaking as House Leader that we will not deviate from the previous practices of the Conservative administration insofar as the timing; but I do want to give the assurance as far as I personally can give that assurance, I have no intention of duplicating the inci�ent referred to by the Honourable Member from Souris- Killarney of introducing bills at 3 o'clock in the morning. I agree with him that our minds really can only absorb as much as our posteriors can absorb as we are sitting in our seats. I do want to suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that I am sincere in the introduction of this resolution, that I have no intention or the government has no intention of imposing upon members of the Assembly any undue penalties insofar as hours of sitting are concerned. One of the purposes of course of this resolution, and this type of resolution is that it will permit us as government, as members of this Assembly to go into committee, to come out of committee, to have separate sittings in the House in order to expedite the business of the House. And while I am speaking on the introduction of this resolution, Mr.

Speaker, I want to reaffirm an undertaking that I gave to those people who appeared before the Industrial Relations Committee, back in November, that there will be no endeavour on our part to speedily dispose of any consideration of the Act which will form part of the new labour code for the Province of Manitoba. I gave that undertaking now and I want to reaffirm that as soon as possible we will reveal to the House and to interested parties the contents of the labour code. I regret very much that I have not been able as Minister of Labour to compile these amendments as quickly as I had hoped to. Mr.

Speaker, I accept the responsibility that some of the fault may be mine but then it is a huge undertaking. I want to assure all and sundry there will be no endeavour to speedily consider the points that will come under consideration in those bills, and I think this is equally true of other matters of great importance. It can well be that we will sit on a few occasions after the present adjournment hour of

June 13 , 1972 2927 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ..... 10 o'clock in the evening but I am sure that honourable mem bers will realize that as of June 13th, that if we can expedite the business of the House within reason it is to the benefit of all of the people of Manitoba as well as to the members of this Assembly. So I recommend this resolution, Mr.

Speaker, to members of the Assembly, I ask them to accept it in the spirit in which I am presenting it, not in an atmosphere of imposition on the members of the House but in a realization that this has been historic in the 18 years or more that I have been a member of this Assembly and I as the present House Leader give my assurance I do not intend to abuse the contents of the resolution even though at times I may be accused of so doing. I recommend the resolution to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister's dulcet tones are in marked contrast to the arm swinging, blustering approach that he was using just a little bit earlier. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR. JORGENSON: During an earlier consideration of a matter that was before this House. Anytime the Minister adopts that kind of tone I always get a little bit suspicious of what his motives are. Sir, let me make it very clear at the outset , that in principle we have no objection what soever to the speed-up motion coming into force.

It's generally recognized as a means of getting through the business of the House when there are a few matters left to be dealt with and on that basis there can be no objection to the application of the speed-up motion. But, Sir, when the speed-up motion is intent to bring about legislation by attrition, then that's another matter. Sir, that is the attitude in which this government is approaching the speed-up motion.

For weeks on end, Sir, there were 19 bills standing on the Order Paper in the name of the government, 19 of them -- not one of them given first reading, not one of them given a first reading by the Minister, an introduction by the Minister, so we could have an opportunity to examine and peruse the statements of the Ministers to determine what was intended by the . introduction of that legislation. The Minister of Labour came over here on several occasions and asked what bills we were prepared to let go. I gave him a list of bills that we were prepared to advance to com mittee at the earliest opportunity.

He hasn't even called them yet and I don't know what he wants in the way of co-operation from members on this side of the House in order to expedite the business of the House. If those bills had been called, given first reading by the Ministers, given an explanation as to their intent , an opportunity for the opposition to examine them, that in my opinion, Sir, would have been the expediting of the business of this House. Many of those bills at this moment could have then proceeded on to law amendments and could have been already dealt with in law amendments.

I can't say that the same consideratio n would have been given to all those bills , because there are some of them that are contentious and that's to be expected and that's to be expected. MR. SPEAKER: Order. MR. JORGENSON: There's no possibility that even the Minister in his wildest moments can expect that any opposition party is going to agree with everything that he proposes.

There wi ll naturally be objections to certain facets and certain aspects of certain pieces of legislation, but the purpose of debate is to bring out weaknesses in legislation so that the public have an opportunity of hearing both sides of a story. And, Sir, the method by which this government is proceeding with their legislative program and now attempting by attrition to ram the whole bundle down the throats of the opposition in the last stages of the legislations, Sir , is a process that is unheard of. The Minister knows it.

If there is a possibility that legislation can be brought forward, dealt with, sent to the proper committees, given a proper hearing and then returned to this House for fi.llal approval , it has the effect of giving some substance to the democratic process. But, Sir, they don't want the criticisms of their legislation being brought forward except in a very short period of time during the speed-up motion. They don't want the public to know that there may be weak nesses in that legislation. The Minister himself apologizes for not bringing forward his Labour Code. That could be a very contentious issue.

Does he mean to tell me that he wants to deal with that during a speed-up? Well it appears so because it isn't even on the Order Paper. It isn't even on the Order Paper, Sir, -- and all the insults and gratuitous remarks of the Minister is not going to make one iota of difference. If he thinks that he's going to intimidate anybody on this side of the House by ingratuitous remarks he better think again.

2928 June 13, 1972 (MR . JOR GENSON cont'

d) I' m sim ply saying , Sir , the govern men t's Legi sl ative program has been a fiasco from day one. They br ought forward legis lation that is unpopular with the people of this country and they know it, they refuse to bring it forward, refuse to have it dealt \vith at the proper time. They want it all condensed into a short period of time so that proper disse mination of opposition to that legislation, the both sides of the story with regard to their legislative progr am cannot be heard by the people of this country - there is no way that it can be done when it's done under attrition.

That has been the one feature of this government in bringing forward their legislative prog ram; ev erything must be done under those circu mstance s. They know that there is no way that the public are going to be able to get the kind of information that they should get, the kind of advance notice in preparation for appearance before Law Amendments. And I daresay that honourable friends opposite are not very anxious to have anybody appear before Law Amend ments, they have indicated that on more than one occasion . Perhaps that's the reason for this techn ique of dealing with leg islation.

Sir, it's been a fiasco right from the very start. The Minister has given his personal as surance that no undue pre ssures are going to be applied in dealing with the legis lation that is going to be brought forward during the pressure cooker period, and I'd like to take the Minister 's word. As a matte r of fact, I'd be happy to take the Minister 's word that he per sonally would not like to do that.

But what can you expect when you'r e dealing with -- he doesn't ev en know how many bills they' ve got yet to come; the lines of com munic ation are so bad that there 's no way one Minister knows what the other one is doing. As a matte r of fact, there 's ev en confusion in the minds of one Minister as to what direction he is to go , he tries to move in both directions at the sa me time.

No way, no way can the House Leader conduct the business of this House in the proper fashion unle ss he has the co-operation of his Ministers; and obviously this House Lea der does not have the co-operation of the Ca binet that sits behind him. If there is a pos sibility that we can expedite business of this House , Sir, under normal circ ums tanc es, to insure that which is most important in the legis lativ e proc ess, that is; that the public be getting informed, instead of the method that honour able gentle men opposite are choosing.

Bill 55 has not passed yet , Sir , and yet they are alre ady spending thousands of dollars in advert ising the program that has not received the approval of this House. That, Sir, is con tra ry, co ntrary to the spirit of parliament or to the Legis lature. It's presum ptuous to assum e that before a bill is even given second re ading in this Chamber they are going to spend thousanlb of dollars advertisin g a program, and the Minister of Finance who sits in front of me should know bette r than that. Thousands of dollars being used in advertis ing already before the Bill has ev en rece ived seco nd reading.

Sir , that is supreme arrogance in my opinion, but pompous arro gance , that' s right , the Attorney- General described it accurate ly.

Sir , the legislativ e progr am of this governm ent has been characterized by confusion right from the start, but as I indicaifd earlier , we have no objection to the speed-up motion being passed, we have no objecti on to it taking effect; what we object to is the manner in which the legislative program has been dealt with up to this point, because we feel that most of the legis lation that is currently on the Order Paper , on the Order Paper , Sir, could have already been dealt with , could have gone through the Law Amendments Comm ittee and been back in the House for final approv al, had it not been for the bu mbling attitude of the govern ment who seem to be incapable of bri nging forward ev en the simplest legis lative program and present ation to the House .

MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urabl e Member for Inkst er. MR. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Inkste r): Mr.

Speaker , there were numerous parts of my honourable friend's rem arks which I am sure that he made for the purpose of making points other than dealing with the motion before the House , which I think is legiti mate parliamentary debate , and I' m really not going to comment on. them, except to indicate that he started off by sa ying , and I bel ieve he closed by saying that the Oppos ition really doesn't have any objection to the type of motion that is now being proposed by the Minister of Labou r, and I am sure that the other matters that he raised will be raised from time to time and will have to be debated and I re ally don't intend to deal with them because they are not quite germane to the motion.

I know, Mr . Speaker , that it is traditional in this House for the governm ent side to move a motion which changes the hours of debate and it is also the tradition for members of the Opposit ion to rise in righteous indignation and prote st to that motion and I'v e always had the feeling that despite the indignation and the protestation -- we ll you know, the honourable member

June 13 , 1972 2929 (MR" GREEN cont'd) ... .. didn't rea lly protest to the motion and that's the kind of point that I' m trying to make , but everything he spoke and the tone that he used, was a protest, Mr. Speaker , which reminds me of a story that is told of a meeting between the big three -- the honourable member may know the story. It had to do with Clmrchill and Stalin. Stalin was protesting very much about the British not opening up a second front and he had some very crude rem arks to say about the English.

As a matter of fact at one point he said to Churchill that the British should try fighting for a change and if they do so they will find that it's not so bad. And Churchill of course , rightfully offended by what was said, pounded his fist on the table and spoke of the courage of the English soldier and about the tradition which the English soldier had become known for for fighting , Churchill was very angry and he pounded his fist and he shouted and screamed and then Stalin said to the interpreter , "Please don't interpret anything that he has said, I don't understand a word of it , but I admire his spirit.

" I think that with regard to the speech that the honourable member has made , that although he was not indeed protesting to the motion that has been put, that his spirit was in tend ed to convey some indignation on the part of the Opposition to points which I don' t believe really were raised as against the motion to change the rules.

And I think we should bring that back into perspe ctive , that what is presented here is a motion to change the rules; to change the rules to permit more hours of debate and I want to try to assure the honourable member, as I tried in the pas t, to assure him that I don't feel that the debate should in any way suffer by virtue of us working longer hours. Mr.

Speaker , if you will go through the records of this legislative session, that is , I'm including from the first sitting on, and look at the debate pre vious to the rules being changed and the debate after the rules being changed , I would venture to say that the debate and the nature of the debate, the depth of the debate, the speeches that were made were better after the motion was brought than before the motion was brought. I am not on that account , Mr.

Speaker , I' m not on that account suggesting that the rules be that way all along as if to say_ that there is a cause and effect re lationship in this connection. All I' m saying is that I haven't found a single member -- that includes members of the opposition, who I believe are fulfilling· their responsibilitie s, members on this side of the House who I believe are fulfilling their responsibilities -- I haven't found them willing to in any way inhibit their style , inhibit their speeche s or make any allowances for the fact that they are working long hours which only indi cates to me , Mr.

Speaker , that the members of the House are strong- willed people , that they are going to perform their responsibi lity no matter how difficult it is for them to perform their responsibility; and indeed , Mr. Speaker , that they will overcome obstacies and even come out better when they are put stronger to the task. So that for a portion of the legis lative se ssi on the hours are changed. Mr.

Speaker , I want to put that into perspective , because one would think that something is happening in Manitoba that is very unusual , that after three or four months of legislative sitting that they go into a longer hour process and during that process something unusual occurs. That's not the situation at all , Mr. Speaker . As a matter of fact the legislative sittings in Manitoba are almost unique as I understand them across this country. Would it surprise you, Mr.

Speaker , to know that in Saskatchewan where there is a real polariza tion betwee� govern ments and opposition, that they sit for less than 60 days every year. That even in the period of the Thatche r administration and now in the period of the Blakney administration , that they manage to sit for less than 60 sitting days; and they have never gone beyond 60 sitting days and they accomplish their whole legislative program. I' m not saying that they are better than us.

As a matter of fact I happen to like the Legislature and I happen to like the debates that take place and I happen to like it even when it's repetitive , because I don't think it's ever exactly repetitive and I think that the process itself is a good one. But for someone to suggest that the process that take s place here is in some way an inhibition or an infringement or a curtailing of debate is not to recognize what takes place in other jurisdictions. The fact is that in British Columbia they have sat continuously, Mr.

Speaker, and they still don't have the type of legislative sitting that we have in the Province of Man itoba. I think it used to be the rules of parli ament in Ottawa that there was no cl osing hour at the end of the evening , that they closed whenever they felt like it, and that they often sat for a long long time. And if one would read debates from the Mot her of Par liaments that one of the things that they used to do was to sit continuously, that without ever adjourning the House the debate continued. I'm not suggesting that that should happen, and I' m not suggesting, Mr. Speaker , that that would be an

2930 June 13 , 1972 (MR. GREEN cont'd) .. ... improvement over what we are doing.

All I am suggesting is that this motion as I see it, and as I have always seen it, and members will know that I have studiously avoided calli ng it a speed- up motion because I don't think it is a speed-up motion , I haven't seen it speed things up a great deal, all that it is is a motion whereby we undertake for our own benefit - and I know that it's for the benefit of the members of the Opposition also - that we try to put more work into one day in the hope that by doing that what would normally have taken two months to accomplish because we are sitting twice as long will take one month to ac complish.

Not that there will be any less debate , not that there will be any curtailment, not that the debate will be less vigorous but that we will put that much work into a shorter space of time. It ·rather reminds me of my father. My father was one of the most physically strong men that I have ever met and he was a coal dealer, he delivered coal; and the way of delivering coal was to put 10 0 pounds of coal into a sack so that there were 20 sacks to a ton. I can remember, Mr.

Speaker , that we were scaling out one day and my father had 10 sacks of coal on the back of the truck and we came to the scaler and he said , "You've got a half a ton". He P!lt the sca le at half a ton and it was heavy. Then he said , "Well you weigh heavy, Mr. Green. " My Dad said , "Try a ton ," and he tried a ton and we were right on. He says , ''You've got 10 sacks to the ton. " So my Dad said , "Well , I don't like to carry twice as many sacks so I put 200 pounds in everyone of them. " And all we are saying is -- and I take this , Mr. Speaker , I take this to be the general will of the House.

I know that it is the custom , it is the style, it is the tradition, and I hope , and I'm trying to remember correctly, that I never ever protested on the speed-up motion because I was prepared to work, and I remember the Honourable Member for Morris during the first session got up and voted with the government side on this particular motion saying that that's the kind of work that we intend to do. So his objection, his objection relates to the style in which we have proceeded. Mr.

Speaker , I'm not going to deal with that objection, perhaps the House Leader will at the time when it comes for him to close debate because he would be the essential person to deal with those questions. That what is being objected to is some style , that we have proceeded , although the Member for Morris in making that objection as I repeat, I like his spir it , it attempted to build up to an objection to the motion when it really wasn't.

I assume that the opposition will deal with that style at various times when various bills are brought up and try to make their point that the Legis lature has not proceeded in a way which the Honour able Member for Morris thinks it should have proceeded and he is certainly legitimate in making that point. But the essential point that he makes , and I think that the one that we should all be accepting and not be making a tempest out of a teapot of , is that what we are doing is almost, Mr.

Speaker , -I hesitate to use the word - but almost by concurrence we are adopting a procedure which everybody feels will enable us to work longer , just as hard , at the same pay, without comprising our re,sponsibili ty to our electorate on either side of the House and maybe get more work done with the result that we may have a little longer time left over at the end. I'm glad , Mr . Speaker , that that's acceptable to the Member for Morris and I there fore take it that there will not be a great deal of difficulty this year in dealing with this motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry.

MR, SHER MAN: Mr. Speaker , there is no chance whatsoever that we can win a debate on this resolution , not the sl ightest chance , and I sometimes wonder why my colleagues and I insinuate ourselves into debates of this kind because we know we're bea ten before we start. We know there 's no logic and no future into getting into the debate and maybe the reason we do it is because it feels so good after we stop. I appreciated the remarks of my honourable friend the Member for Inkster, the future Minis ter in the administration , but I want to say this , Mr.

Speaker , that notwithstanding the principles to which his father adhered, and notwithstanding the kind of techniques that his father b�ought to his labours , there is a possibi lity that some day the seams on one of those sacks might have split and the coal might have spilled out on the street and then what would it have profited the honourable member 's father or anybody else in the business to be loading 200 pounds of coal into a sack that should really only hold lOO or 150 . I must take exception in a minor way , Mr.

Speaker , to the offer extended by my colleague and Hous� Leader , the Honourable Member for Morris , when he said that we on this side had no objection - I think that was the term he used, no objection to the speed-up motion. I certainly have objection to the speed-up motion , Mr. Speaker , I haven't caucused

June 13 , 1972 293 1 (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ..... the question with my House Leader and I know what he was saying was that there are ways of speeding-up the bus iness of the House , limiting perhaps members like myself from lengthy debate in order to expedite the business of the people and the bus iness of the province , but I wouldn't want his statement that we have no objection to the speed-up motion to sit on the record in that particular form and in that particula r context without being explained in part from my perspective .

Because I believe that we get inferior cons ideration of legislation, we get inferior government , we get inferior opposition and we give inferior service to the people of Manitoba when the minds and the energies and the intellect, such as they are , of all members ·in this Chamber are strained and sapped to the wearying point. And they are strained and sapped to the wearying point when we go into lengthy, tedious se ssions of debate under speed-up. It' s happened before and notwithstanding all the good intentions of the Minister of Labour it will happen again , Mr. Speaker .

There is no question in my mind that regardle ss of the prophecy and the promise of the Minister of Labour in intro ducing his resolution this afternoon to the effect that there is no intention or no inclination on his part or the government's part to abuse the privilege extended under the speed-up motion, no question in my mind that when the heat is on, when the crunch comes, when we're down to the nitty-gritty on specific questions of legislation, when we're down to the eyeball to eyeball confrontation between government and opposition at 10 o'cl ock at night , and at 11 O'c lock at night , and at 10 o'c lock on Saturday morning - and perhaps as my colleague suggests at 2 o'clock in the morning - we will sit and we will stay here and the privilege of speed-up will be exploited, will be extended and will be abused, despite the highest intentions of the Minister of Labour and anybody el se in the House to avoid that kind of practice.

I don't believe you get good government and you get good oppos ition under those conditions , Mr. Speaker . We've heard the song about consideration and an intention to treat the motion responsibly before , like the old song of the 1940s used to say , "It Seems to Me I've Heard that Song Before". And we have heard it before. We heard it in 1970 and we heard it in 197 1, and if memory serves me we heard it in 19 69, and we're hear ing it again in 197 2.

When the crunch is here and when the heat of debate reache s the kind of cresc endo that it does after you're three and a half or four months into a session, with the kind of philosophical diff erences that exist in this province between government and opposition , there is no way that the best intentions of the Minister or anybody else can avoid the speed-up pri vileges from being abused. The Honourable Member from Inkster has talked about his approach to the concept of government business.

He and others have mentioned that in various other Legis latures· in Canada there is never the kind of difficulty, the kind of argument that we seem to have in our Chamber here over speed-up provisions. But I would just remind the Member for Inkster and other s of that line of thinking that we probably are in a unique parli amentary positi on in this Legis lature in comparison to that existing in others. I was in-the Legis lature in Edmonton - the Alberta Legislature - two weeks ago for a day and, Mr.

Speaker, there is - I hes itate to judge that Legislature on the basis of one afternoon sitting - but I did spend some time with the Pr.emier and the Ministers in that administration and I talked to them about the kinds of things that were happening and going on, and there is no comparison to the cli mate , to the philoso phical situation in that Chamber and this one. Here we have legitim ate and welcome conflict and con frontation of ideas. The Member for Inkster and I do not agree on the directions in which this province should be moving in general terms.

Certainly that applies right across the benches on both sides of the House . But you don't find that situation in Alberta. --(Interjection)-- Well perhaps you find it in Saskatche wan, you certainly don't find that situation in Alberta. You may find it in intent in Ontario but it doesn't articu late itself in Ontar io because the opposition there has been in some disarray since the last provincial elec tion and it may take another sess ion or two for them to define the ir positions and stake out their role in the House in the effective man ner to which their comrades and colleagues in Manitoba would aspire.

But here in Manitoba we have direct ideological, philosophical conflict, and it' s not an unhealthy thing, and in my opinion it's a heal thy thing. And the people of Manitoba are well served by it when people in this House on both sides of questions can bring fresh minds and fresh energies to the legislation in debate. That doesn't happen at 10 o'cl ock or 11 o'cl ock at night after five or six days in midsummer heat , and it certainly doesn't happen at 2 o'cl ock in the morning. So I repeat what I've said in previous debates on this iss ue.

Last year or the year before I stated my objections to the con cept and the principle of the speed-up motion. I would like to com mend the Minister for having changed the hour of start or proposed a

2932 June 13 , 1972 (MR. SHER MAN cont'd .) . . . . . change in the hour of start to 10 o'c lock in the morning rather than 9: 30, that' s an improvement. I think that extra half hour is going to be he lpful in terms of maintaining the energies of members in the House , but I think the Saturday sitting is a handicap and a drawback to good governm ent and good opposition in the Province of Manitoba. I think six days a week in here for 12 to 14 hours a day in midsummer heat does no service , does no service either to the government supporters or the opposition supporters.

The Minister of Labour started the afternoon on a high note of propaganda , Mr. Speaker , when he made his Ministerial Statement having to do with the employment situation and he's kept a cons istent posture all afternoon. He wound up on a similarly high note of propaganda in introducing this resolution when he said, we won't abuse it , there'l l be no attempt to take ad vantage·of it or exploit it , we 're not going to be irre sponsible in our approach to it. Well that's sugar-coating. Never mind the sugar-c oating , we 'll take the pill.

We expect it to be tough, we expect to lose the debate, we expect to go into 12 and 14 hour sittings, but let's have it straight. That's the way it's going to be and I'm opposed to it. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERN IACK: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry has talked about the way we intend to wo rk, all of us. Of course he says we have no choice , it' s going to be voted in , and of course the reason he has no choice is that it would appear that either his Party is supporting the resolution or there's a split in the Party and that of course is their pro blem.

The Member for Morris talked about the fact that their caucus would like an opportunity to see what is expected to come up in debate so they can caucus on it and form a position, and obviously they have not had an opportunity to caucus together on this question and therefore they find themselves in some disagreement . Which, Mr.

Speaker , seems to happen on this side on occasion and seems to support the suggestion that with our Party as it is on this side , we don't really need an opposition and we' re not really getting an official opposition to the extent that we are able to debate in the House issues that affect people on both sides and both sides have points of view that may differ . So that I can well understand the Member for Fort Garry and the Member for Morris having a disagreement on how to vote on this issue , but no doubt it will be resolved and we will proceed.

The main rea son I wish to make some comments was the question raised by the Member from Morris in re lation to Bill 55 where he talked on a bill that has not yet been passed and is being advertised. I thought I should clarify for him and for members of the House just what has happened.

The principles enunciated in Bill 55 - and we 'll be hearing from the Member for Fort Garry very soon I hope on this very question - the principles were enunciated and debated at great length during the Budget Speech; they have come up, they' ve been called in the House on seven different occasions; there have been some 12 speakers - I think in my counting I in cluded the Member for Fort Garry who will be speaking today so that by the end of the day - (Interjection)-- Oh, apparently he's not speaking today. So again this will be delayed a little longer , but it has been in the public eye substantially.

The advertising that has appeared and will be appear ing is in relation to the tax bills that were received yesterday I guess by half of the people of Manitoba; and those tax bills carry within them legislation or the effect of legislation which was passed by this Legislature at the last session , and I think that it is very important and justified that people are acquainted with the nature of the structure of the tax bill , to point out the manner in which they are receiv ing a long-awaited tax credit on their bills based on a reduction in education tax, and , so that they understand - that is those who are tenants - the manner in which they will be able to get their share.

Therefore there has to be notice to landlords that this $5 0. 00 received by them is in deed the effect of the legislation passed last year , is indeed a reduction in education tax re lated to the provincial contribution - that's over and above anything else - and that the landlord has to know that and has to know that he must pass that benefit to his tenant , and that tenant has to know how he can claim it and receiv e it. So that that advertising is not only justified, it's im portant to carry out the full intent of the manner in which the government has reduced the impact of education tax on real property.

Now because of the debate that took place during the Budget, all the Budget speeches, be cause of the seven different occasions and the approximate ly.12 speakers that have debated Bill 55 in the House already, it is important I believe for the people who are recei ving tax bills to know the manner in which this other matter is proposed to work so that they will not confuse

June 13 , 1972 2933 (MR . CHER NIACK cont'd. ) . . the two. I think that honourable mem bers should support the idea that there be clear explanation to people who are listening and reading the media to understand the distinction between the two very important educational real property tax reduc tions.

Therefore I say that we were justified in doing it; the bill has been debated at great length, the people are entitled to know the distinction between the two and the effect of the two , only so that they can understand what was passed last year and the impact on their reduction in tax and what is expected for the 72 taxes in the income tax returns so that they will not �onfuse the two. But this Bill 55 has not been passed; it has certainly been debated; I had hoped it would be passed ... MR. SPEAK ER: Order , plea se. Ord er , please.

I do realize that the relevancy to the explanation of Bill 55 is es sential but I do believe the Honourable Minister could proceed with the debate on the resolution as well. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speak er , I was only conc luding my remarks by regretting the fact that apparently Bill 55 cannot pass today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. SHERMAN: Would the Minister permit one question related to the remarks he made on the resolution ? Would the Minister predict that if everybody on this side of the House voted against this speed-up res olution that the resolution would be defeated? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , I am proud to predict that for years hence the govern ment , which is a New Democratic Party Government, will be able to carry on the business of the people of the province in a manner which will sati sfy the people of the province. --(Inter jection)-- Well then the direct answer is: my prediction is that there will be sufficient support to the Honourable Minister of Labour to pass this resolution. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Assi niboia, debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR. PAULLEY: Would you kindly call Bil l No. 55, Mr. Speaker. GOVER NMENT BILLS MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Could I have this matter stand, Mr. Speaker ? MR. SPEAKER: Agreed ? The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Well , Mr.

Speaker , I have no objection to it standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. It could well be that there may be other members who are desirous of speaking to this most important bill which has been criticized because of its manner of introduction into this House. I wonder if anyone el se wishes to speak? MR. SHER MAN: That's accepta ble . MR. PAULLEY: Apparently no one wishes to speak at this time , Mr. Speak er .

I wonder if you would call Bil l No. 63 on page 3, a bill standing in the name - the adjournment in the name of the Honourable the Member for Fort Garry dealing with Workmen's Compensation. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Labour. The Honour- able Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker , could I have this matter stand ? MR. SPEA KER: Agreed? The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker , it seems my honourable friend has no inclination apparent ly at this time to process the business of Manitoba.

I wonder if anybody else wishes to speak on Workmen' s Compensation that is so vital to Manitobans . MR. SHERMAN: If anyone el se wants to speak that' s all right ... MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Radis son. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speak er , someone will speak on some bill. I now call Bill No. 57 , standing in the name of the Minister of Labour . MR. PAULLEY presented Bill No. 57 , The Apprenticeship and Tradesm en' s Qualifications Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion.

2934 June 13 , 1972 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker , I don't know whether really an explanation is necessa ry. This bill has been printed and distributed to members of the Hause for some considerable per iod of time and I'm sure that honourable members in the House have had ample opportunity of considering the bill. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, the following information will be of inte rest to members of the House.

This Act combines the present Apprenticeship Act and the Tradesmen's Qualifications Act, both of which will be repealed on the coming into force of this legisl ation. The Appren ticeship Act originally enacted in 1944 establishes a framework for organized apprenticeship tra ining programs in the Province of Manitoba by persons that might achieve certification in a number ·of designated trades. The Tradesmen's Qualifications Act originally was enacted in 1961 and it provides for a formal way of ce rti fying tradesmen who have gained experienc e in their trades other than by way of apprenticeship.

Since both of the existing Acts deal with certificatio n, the legislation would be simplified by combining them as some other provinces in this country have done. More would be achieved by this legislation however than merely a combination and simplification of the two Acts. The new legislation does away with the provision in the old Acts which have become outdated, and more importantly it incorporates new provisions which would allow for flexibil ity in the admin istration and development of apprenticeship training and certification programs in the province. The highli ghts of this proposed bill , Mr.

Speaker , are as follows: that under the com bined Act it woo.ld be possible to have regulations for each trade or closely allied group of trades dealing with the certificat ion of tradesmen , whether they obtain their training and ex perience under formal apprenticeship programs or gained their experience in the trade as help ers , or have training and experienc e from other jurisdictions including those from lands other than here in Canada.

Prior to this , certification of tradesmen other than apprentices has been done under the existing Tradesmen's Qualification Act by separate examination boards but not in all trades in whjch apprenticeship training has been offered.

Under the Act which I am now proposing regulations based on recommendations of trade advisory committees and the Pro vincial and Tradesmen's Qualification Board wauld set out the requirements for certification in each of the designated trades and the Department , that is of course the Department of Labour , would administer them by conducting examinations, checking qualifications and experience, whatever is required. Like the existing Tradesmen's Qualification Act, the new Act has a provision which would enable compulsory certification of trades by Order- in-Council.

In such circumstances persons entering the trade would be required to take apprentic eship training; persons .who have been working in the trade at the time compulsory certification is established for a period of time ex ceeding the length of apprentic eship for the trade would be issued a temporary permit to con tinue working in the trade for a year. During that year the person would be required to obtain a certificate of qualification in 'the trade in order to continue working thereafter and regulations woo.ld establish the requirements to meet such certificati on. I think, Mr.

Speaker , this is most necessary partic ularly in the field say of elec tricians who have to have certain qualifications in order to perform work which may adversely affect people by wrong installa tions, etc. in the electrical industry. I only use that , Mr. Speaker , as an illus tration because I' m sure honour able members will agree with me that even in the , say in the bricklayer or carpenter trades, that in order to protect the public we should make sure that people are qualified in order to per form the work that is required of them.

Apprenticeship under the new Act would only be com pulsory in trades where certification of tradesmen has been declared compulsory as just des cribed. In other words , apprenticeship would be voluntary. This would mark a departure from the existing Apprentice ship Act which makes apprentices hip compulsory for persons between 16 and 21 years of age working in any apprenticeship trade. Under the proposed Act, Mr. Speaker, the Minister would be empowered to designate any trade or occupation for apprentice ship for certification. Under the existing Act only certain trades actually listed in a

Schedule of the Act may be designated for apprentice training. Any such

schedule is of cour se inherently restrictive and prone to become outdated as new trades come into existence which are appropriate for apprenticeship and certification. The new Act would give the Apprenticeship Board the right to hear appeals from any person affected by any decis ion or order of the Director of Apprenticeship. Appeal rights in the existing Apprenticeship Act are limited to a refusal on the part of the Director to regist er , terminate or transfer an apprenticeship agreement.

June 13 , 1972 2935 (MR . PAULLEY cont'd. ) Mr. Speaker, provision has been made in the new Act establishing the right of an appren tice to take

part in a legal strike without prejudicing his standing as an apprentice . This is not contained within the present Act. The new Act makes provision for recognizing certificates issued under the previous Acts and for the recognition of apprenticeship existing prior to the coming into force of this Act. The main characteristics and principles of apprenticeship train ing and the certification of tradesmen are retained under the new Act.

The Provincial Appren ticeship Board would continue its advisory and decision-ma king role within the framework of the legislation but its responsibilities would be extended to cover matters relating to tradesmen's qualifications as well. Simi larly, trade advisory commi ttees would continue their work in con nection with investigating and making recomm endation on apprenticeship and certification matters for the various particular trades. Both the Board and the Co mmittee would be representative of employers and employees as they are at the present time.

Provision is also made for repre sentation on the board from the Department of Colleges and Univers ity Affairs and for other persons considered suitable for appointment. Under the existing Acts regulations deal with entrance qualifications , the nature of training to be given, apprentice wage rates, examination requirements and related matters. These would continue to be governed by regnlations under the new Act.

The new Act is primarily intended to simplify, update and improve the existing legislation and should allow better services and programs to be provided to the public in the apprentice ship and certification fields. I want to go further, Mr. Speaker, at this time , if I may, that it is intended under the regulations of this Act to permit the governmen t or the Minister of Finance to make a provision for the payment to apprentices of an allow ance for the period of time in which they are taking courses for apprentice ship training.

This provision has been requested by the representative administration boards over a long period of time without avail. Previous administrations in this province have rejected requests for a contribution to be made for allowances to apprentices while they were taking their courses. I believe that as of the present moment , we are one of two provinces in Canada that does not make provision for allowances for board and room for appren tices undergoing training programs, and it is our in tention, and members , Mr.

Speaker may recall that during the consideration of the Estim ates of the Department of Labour , there was a financial provision contained within the estim ates to assist in covering board and room allowances for apprentices. I might say, Mr. Speaker , that I am pleased that the Federal Government has under con sid eration at the present time , a piece of legislation that would provide for board and room allowances to apprentices under our apprentice training schemes in Manitob a, and of course , the other jurisdictions as we ll.

Previously it was a requirement that only those who had been in and then out of the labour movement for a period of three years that there would be any con tribution by the federal authority. Howev er , it does appear at the present time , and I repeat, I am pleased to note that the federal administration have proposed a bill for the consideration of the House of Co mmons that will extend the allowance s to the apprentices under our provincial scheme as we ll, and it may we ll be that upon the enactment of that legislation it will not be the requirement of using provincial funds for this purpose. Howev er , Mr.

Speaker, one never knows in this game of politics and legislative procedure as to when or if a bill may pass. It is needless then for me to say that if this Assembly agrees to this proposed legislation notwith standing whether or not the federal legislation is passed, for the first time in the history of Manitoba apprentices in training will be allowed some allow ance s during their period where it is a requirement for them to attend the likes of the Red River Comm unity College or other col leges as we ll, and Mr.

Speaker , I recomm end this legislation as a forward advance in the Pro vince of Manitoba in respect of apprentice training. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the Honourable Members to the gallery where we have 65 students, Grade 5 standing of the Hazel Kellington School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Rim mer , and Mrs. Murray. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. On behalf of all the honourable members I welc ome you here today. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS.

TRUE MAN: Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Member from Morris that the debate be adjourned.

2936 June 13 , 1972 MR. SPE AKER presented the mo tion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. PAULLEY presented Bill No. 68

an Act to amend the Vacations with Pay Act for second reading. MR. SPEAKER pre sented the motion. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker , this is a Bil l which will make provision for the payment of three weeks vacation with pay to every emp loyee in the Province of Manitoba, under the act, after five years' of employment. My honourable friend from Thompson asks me whether it will include MLA' s. There are many who consider that MLA's are on vacation at all times. I don't agree with that propos ition but I do want to say to my honourable friend the Member for Thompson that there is no provis ion in this Act for MLA' s.

He will have to negotiate for the m. When I speak on the question of negotiations , Mr. Speaker , it is intere sting to note that there are varying provis ions in negotiated agreements at pre sent in effect in the Pro vince of Manitoba in respect of Vacations with Pay after five years of employment. Some collect ive agreements suggest three weeks' vacation with pay after ten years of employment , some others seven, six and eight years. This is the type of legisla tion that we feel particularly would be of advantage to persons who are not covered by collective agreements.

I, as Minister of Labour suggest that it is unfortunate that so many in the Province of Manitoba are not covered by col lectiv e agreements and in many instances have not taken advantage of our legislation to enter into col lective agreements. I realize that there are some who will say thqt the government of the day is legisla ting beyond colle ctive agreements. I'm prepared to accept those objections. I also agree that many in the Pro vince of Manitoba will say it's fine that you're bringing in this legislation today but after all you have been in government for three years.

My honourable friend from Assiniboia I suggest, Mr. Speaker, will be one of those and I don't fault him for it. I do n't fault him for it , except that I would say that the government of his political affinity had an opportunity for 22 years previously to bring in simi lar legislation and they did not.

I also suggest that maybe the labour critic of the Conservative party , whoever he or she may be, will also say likewise and - it looks to me as though they are absent as well - will say well you should have done likewise and we are so disappointed that the provision of the Act brings into effect the provision for three weeks ' vac ation with pay on the 1st of January 197 3. And I suggest to the labour critic or critics of the Conser vative party that they may have a valid point. My honourable friend the Member for Thompso n says why the delay till the 1st of January 1973 ? - which is a very valid question.

The only answer that I can give my honourable friend is that here we are halfway through the summer , many people have had their vacations , no for mal notice has been given and after all , we have waited for 102 years in Manitoba to have this progress ive legis lation , I guess there should not be any general objections to waiting another six months before it becomes fully effective. So , Mr. Speaker , here again, here again in my capacity as Minister of Labour I do re commend changes in our labour legis lation which will be beneficial to the people who work in the Province of Manitoba.

I recommend it to the House , I'm prepared to accept the criticism s from members in the House - on all sides for the delay in the enactment , but I want to indicate , once again , in the labour legisla tion that we have proposed in this House , that this will be bene ficial and will provide to the worker of Manitoba, provisions that hitherto were not part and parcel of our legisla tion. I am sure that in the final analysis at least I shouldn't say, Mr.

Speaker, that I am sure - but I trust that in the final analysis this legislation will be given the unanimous approval of all members of the House and that the bill will be forwarded to the Industrial Relations Co mmittee for its cons ideration. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charles wood): I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Me mber from Minnedosa that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder, Mr.

Speaker , if you would kindly call Bill No. 58,

an Act to amend the Water Supply Board Act in the name of the Honourable Member for Birtle .. MR. J. R. FERGUSON (Gladstone): Could we have it stand ?

June 13 , 1972 2937 MR . PAULLEY: In the absence of the Honourable Member the matter will stand unle ss some other member of the House wishes to become involved in the debate , I leave it open. Mr. Speak er, will you excuse the delay, I'm trying to look at the Order Paper and seeing what members are present in order to progress the legisla tion of the Province of Manitoba. MR . SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR .

JOR GENSON: If the House Leader would extend the courtesy to the opposition of te lling them what bills he proposes to call perhaps I could make arrangements to have people here \\ho intend to speak on them. That's a courtesy that I think could be extended the oppo sit ion to expedite the business of the Hruse. MR . PAULLEY: I point out to my honourable friend , I accept his admonition but would he not agree that one of the principles of being a member of this Assembly is to be in attendance in the service of the Assem bly. Mr. Speaker , would you kindly call Bill No. 54 ? MR .

SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW presented Bill No. 54

an Act to amend The Farm Machinery and Equipment Act for sec ond reading. MR . SPEAKER pre sented the motion. MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the members opposite will recall that this particula r Act was brought into being last year and they will probably observe that not all sections of that Act were proclaimed and the reason being Mr.

Speaker , that we have had a great deal of discuss ion and cons ideration of some of those sections , discussi ons with the ind ustry to determine whether there wasn't a more appropriate approach to the problem in particular , the problem of warranty provisions with respect to the sale of new farm equipment. The Farm Machinery Board which was established under that Act also had lengthy debate on the methodology and provisions that might be contained in this regard and recom mend that we not proclaim the warranty

section of the Act passed last year but rather that we amend the Act so that we would stay within a certain calendar period as opposed to hours of use warranty , syste m. Under the Act in which the sect ions were not proclaimed there is a provision for 1, 000 hours of warranty with respect to the purchase of a tractor or a combine , and the changes here will allow that the warranty provisions will be three years and one year for all other equip ment. So that in es sence is a major change within this bill. There are other small changes that are mostly of a technical nature , Mr.

Speaker , resulting from experience and deliberation of the Farm Machinery Board over the last year, and I would think that I shouldn't touch on those technical points but that that should be left to the committee to more appropriately discuss those points. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris that debate be adjourned. MR . SPEA KER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker , I beg to mo ve, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to cons ider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR . SPEAKER pre sented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. . . . continued on next page

2938 June 13, 1972 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 16 -- passed. Resolution 16 in the amount of $2 , 720, 100 the Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: The Minister hasn't answered all the questions we asked yesterday on that resolution. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I thought I did. If there is a point that I didn• t cover I would hope that the Member for Thompson would relate it at this point. MR. BOROWSia: The two questions I asked, Mr. Speaker, were regarding an in centive -- Farm Loan Incentive Program which doubled from 300 to 600 thousand. Did he have any idea· where it's going to stop.

In other words has he got something in his budget where it will go up to a certain maximum and after that the government will not put up any more money, or is it an open-ended program that could run into millions of dollars in a matter of five years? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I did indeed deal with that problem yesterday although the Member for Thompson may have not caught it.

The incentive progra:in is of course a matter of policy and it can be turned on or turned off at a moment's notice depending on the wi shes and the expertise that advise the government in this regard. It is our belief that it is a good program for this particular period in time, having regard for the need to further provide opportunities for people to shift away from the straight grain production business.

It' s evident, and members opposite would appreciate that as well as the Member for Thompson, that we want to get away from an industry that is largely dependent on foreign grain sales, and hopefully this is one mechanism through which that might be achieved. It's a matter of trying to increase the livestock industry in Manitoba. The grants of course are made only for the purchase of breed ing stock and therefore for the development of a larger livestock base on which to build the industry.

So it's a matter of policy and it is quite conceivable that it could be cut off complete ly a year from now but the wisdom of the government of the day will have to make that decision as we go along. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Resolutions 16 and 17 were read and passed) Resolution 18 (a)--p assed; (b)--p assed ... The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. PETER ADAM (Ste. Rose): I would like to ask the Minister with regards to the ARDA Program, is there going to be any aid for towns in respect to waterworks through the ARDA Program in a situation where the town is part rural and

part village or town? MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Cl>..airman, the Government of Manitoba has just introduced a meas ure to assist towns and communities in the installation of sewer and water services, and the answer to the Member for Ste. ,Rose is that that is not possible within the ARDA Agreement. MR. CHAffiMAN: (Resolutions 18 and 19 were read and passed) Resolution 20 in the amount of $779, 800 ... The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J, WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr.

Chairman, I see a word here that I don't recognize as part of the agricultural terminology, maybe the Minister can explain the Northern Manpower Corps. Is this an army of ag. reps or . . . MR. CHAffiMAN: Order, please. We're on 20 . MR. McKENZIE: Oh I'm sorry. MR. CHAmMAN: (Resolution 20 was read and passed) Resolution 21 ... The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder would the Honourable Minister explain 21. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Government of Manitoba some time ago decided that one of its main thrusts and objectives would be to encourage the greater develop ment of our northern communities and indeed the potential for job opportunity for our northern citizens and because of that decision of course it was necessary to set up some instrument, some instrument to carry out the policy.

That instrument of course is a directorate composed of five departments which has launched a program to maximize the involvement and oppor tunities for our northern residents and in particular our native people which involves the train ing programs, it involves the commuter programs. In other words we are involved in com muting people from isolated communities to where jobs can be found, we' re involved in train ing of those people for specific jobs - for Churchill Forest Industries if you like, for Inco at

June 13, 1972 2939 (M R. USKIW cont• d) ..... Thompson for various other companie s, for Sherritt-Gordon, and so on. So that it's a whole range of programs designed primarily to upgrade the oppor tunities and the involvement for our northern citizens. Now the Member for Roblin wanted to know why that' s contained in my Estimates and the explanation for that is that the deputy, the Assist ant Deputy Minister of my department has long been involved in adjustment program development, and it's a matter of using his talents to accommodate a new thrust in northern Manitoba.

It's sort of a secondment, he is responsi ble to the Planning and Priorities Secretariat and the Cabinet Committee of Planning and · Priorities, and of course his work is reported through me within the Estimates of the Depart ment of Agriculture. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 21 in the amount of $69 1, 600 -- passed .•. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOR OWSKI: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could explain a little more, in more detail the workings of this expenditure since Manpower is obviously a federal res ponsibility. Is Ottawa sharing, cost sharing ?

What type of arrangement have we, and is it a two-year agreement, or a five-year, and what is the projection, the lifespan projection of this program ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, the cost- shared program would be contained in the item that was just approved and that would be The Pas Special Area Agreement, and I• m not sure of the breakdown of the cost sharing but the Northern Manpower Corps is really a provincial thrust where we involve other departments and the private sector in trying to locate people of northern residence within the job opportunity limits of northern development. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 21 -- passed ... The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR.

BOROWSKI: First of all I think we al! in the House agree that the Provincial Government should make a real effort to get a lot of these peoples from remote communities to areas where the jobs are, whether it' s CFI or Inco or Ruttan Lake. Nevertheless, Mr. Chairman, it is the responsibility of the Federal Government and that being the case, I wonder if the Minister is billing, either billing directly Ottaw a for the cost, or do they have a separate agreement assigned to cover the cost of this program ? MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the normal responsibility for arranging federal cost-sh aring agreements of course does not lie with my department as far as this area is concerned but I'm sure there have been discussions, and will likely continue to be. What we are doing here is filling a vacuum, an area of involvement which has to date been neglected by the Government of Canada and we feel that someone has to assume some responsibility in role to more fully bring about or maximize the participation of our native people and the residents of northern Manitoba into the area of industry and development of the northern region.

So I don't apologize for the fact that we are spending provincial dollars. It is a socially desirable objective. The fact that it should really be a program under the Government of Canada is one I don't think I can dispute but I think someone has to do something, and we are doing it, Mr. Chairman. MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. BEARD: To follow up on this then, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to ask the Minister whether there is any monies involved in this particular amount in respect to training, to the training of people; or secondly, is there any amount involved in the transportation, the trans portation of the people back and forward to jobs ? If so, is there any amount of this money that is reclaim able from the people that are working? In other words if there' s an expenditure of this amount, is there any that the government does recover from the people in Manpower ? I would wonder too whether they are involved directly in the Manpower Program that is now being undertaken in Churchill.

I understand it' s a northern manpower project in housebuilding. If so, I would like to say something about it but I just wondered whether they are directly in volved in that particular program at Churchill on the housing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR, JAMES H, BILTON (Swan River) : Mr. Chairman, I'm sure no one in the House would object to the objectives as indicated by the Honourable Minister but it looks to me like a little over half a million dollars, and from his explanation I didn' t hear him mention agriculture

2940 June 13, 1972 (MR. BILTON cont•d) .•... at all and I wonder if he is meaning by his remarks, or will he add to his remarks that agriculture is primarily indicated in this amount of money, that is the ins truction and the finding of people that are interested in going into agriculture. And if so, does this include those people at Mafaking and all the area around there where there is a cer tain amount of agriculture, where there should be a thrust and assis tance toward encouraging the endeavours in agriculture and certainly for young people?

Is some of this money intended for that purpose rather than for industry? If it's for industry in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, it shouldn't be under Agriculture but under the department to which it belongs. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairma n, I didn' t get the first question put by the Member for Churchill but I will respond to the other question put and perhaps he can rise again and indicate what the first one was.

After the first trip under our Commuter Program we do charge any prospective employee or trainee, whatever the term is, $25. 00 per trip, but the first trip is free of charge. The Indian Affairs Department picks up the $25. 00 fee on the first trip with respect to the Indian people. Now the Member for Swan River wants to know whether it includes an agricultural area. The program includes all of the area under the Northern Affairs Department. MR. CHAffiMAN: (Resolution 21 was read and passed) That completes the Depart ment of Agriculture. Book. MR. PAU�LEY: The Executive Council, Mr.

Chairman, on Page 3 of the Estimates MR. CHAffiMAN: (Resolutions 6 and 7 were read and pass ed) That concludes the Department of Executive Council. MR. BILTON: Did you call 7? MR. CHAffiMAN: Yes. MR. BILTON: Seven, that would be (a) (1 ). I notice that's up $300, 000. 00. Is there any particular reason for this or could we have an explanation. I'm talking under the Executive Council. --(Interjection)-- 3 (a) (1 ) - salaries, up $300, 000 for the Management . . . - (Interjection)-- Is it? No, I'm wrong. I'm away out. Never mind. MR.

CHAffiMAN: Resolution 72 (a) (1) -- we have completed up to (b) (1 ). (b) (2)- passed; (c ) (I )--passed •.. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR.

GRAHAM: Dealing with the item (c) (1 ) or Item No. (c) - Safety Programs can the Minister indicate to me whether he will accept a recommendation put forward by the Trucking Ass ociation of Manitoba whereby they have requested an additional levy through the Workmen's Compensation Board to provide a safety driving progam where they will train truck drivers and educate them in the safety program which is so necess ary in this province, and indeed across Canada, to try our best to eliminate road accidents, road accid ents which, Sir, in my opinion are particular ly �angerous to those driving in pass enger automobiles when they become involved with the larger trucks which are quite prevalent on our highways today.

Could the Minister indicate whether he will support and indeed advocate a program such as the Trucking Ass ociation has put forward ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. BURTNIAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that the honourable member will agree that insofar as the trucking indus try is concerned the truckers really are pretty safety conscious and I think that in our safety programs as far as other people are concerned, these are being carried out quite extensive ly and have been proven quite successf ul.

However as far as the truckers are concerned I am aware of the point that the honourable member makes inso far as providing some sort of a program for the truck drivers . No doubt this is something that ought to be considered and will be done no doubt in due course. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 72. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman, could the Minister indicate to me whether he has conveyed that messa ge to the Truckers Ass ociation ? MR, BURTNIAK: Mr.

Speaker, this is only in the talking stages and we've had rep res entation from the Trucking Asso ciation on many different problems , and we• ve had an opportunity to discuss these problems, but so far to the best of my knowledge I have not given that indication to them in so many words . But we have met on a number of occasi ons on this matter, and other matters as well, and I think they know the feeling of the government insofar as this particular item is concerned. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose.

June 13, 197 2 2941 MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister under this item whether there are any programs in schools for the safety use of bicycles to the students ? This would be apart from the Student-Driver Training Program. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, as far as the bicycle program is concerned I would like to at this time inform the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose that we are very much aware of the bicycle problem that is now upon us in Manitoba, and in Canada as a whole.

We are told that this year there will be another increase of something like 25 percent in bicycle manufactur ing, and particularly what our department is concerned about is not just bikes as such, but we're concerned about the 10-speed bikes which can travel at fairly high speeds. And we have now set up a committee that is going to start to work on some sort of a safety program. It will begin in August and we hope that they will complete their study by January 1, and that they will come forth with some recommendations to the department insofar as safety programs for bicycles are concerned.

Now no doubt we may have to look into the situation whereby we may have to look at some bicycle paths, and I think that the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose would also agree that in some cases as far as bicycles are concerned the way that they are being operated now, the greatest danger is some of the bicycles that have these handlebars away down, that the people who are using them they can' t really see what is ahead of them and they're out on the highways and on busy streets.

And also in some other cases some of our teen-agers are using perhaps the wrong kind of bicycles because of the fact that they may be a little too big, or too high, for those that actually use them and naturally what happens if they have to come to a stop, if their feet can't reach the ground, you know, naturally what' s going to happen he's going to have a tumble.

All these things are of course of concern to us, and we know also that other countries have experienced this kind of a problem and we're looking to them for some advice to see how they managed to overcome the problem that is upon us now insofar as the tremendous increase in the number of bicycles. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Would this include power bikes too, I mean motorcycles. MR. BURTNIAK: Yes, we have a problem there too which has been in existence here for quite some time. We're looking at that too but this particular committee that I referred to, Mr.

Chairman, will apply only to bicycles and not necessa rily motorbikes. But we have been meeting, as a matter of fact just about a week ago, we had a meeting in my office with the Chief of City Police and the RCMP, and other interested people, dealing with such things as motorcycles. MR, CHAIRMAN: Resolution 72 (c) (1). The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (P embina) : Mr. Chairman, I was wondering whether this was the rig ht place or not but I wanted to speak on speed limits within certain areas .

Possi bly it could be further down but I didn' t want to miss the opportunity to speak on speed limit s be cause I feel that there's many of the highways in the country that should have higher speed limits. You don't hardly talk to anybody that

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-114
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 114.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5d3d9ae8a63c8136cab895c18ab44c3a821332d5

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