British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, April 29, 2004

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British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

5th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Thursday, April 29, 2004 Afternoon Sitting Volume 24, Number 8 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 5TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations ...............................................................................................................Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Deputy Premier and Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................ Hon. Christy Clark Minister of State for Early Childhood Development...................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................................................................ Hon.

Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries..................................................................................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations..................................................................................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services ................................................................................................ Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of State for Women's and Seniors' Services................................................................................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Education ............................................................................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Energy and Mines...............................................................................................................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining...................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Finance.........................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests................................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Michael de Jong Minister of State for Forestry Operations.................................................................................................................................. Hon. Roger Harris Minister of Health Services.........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health and Addiction Services ....................................................................................................Hon.

Susan Brice Minister of Human Resources........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of Management Services ............................................................................................................................................. Hon. Joyce Murray Minister of Provincial Revenue.................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Rick Thorpe Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...................................................................................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour......................................................................................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Small Business and Economic Development ...............................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Sustainable Resource Management ....................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Resort Development............................................................................................................................... Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection ............................................................................................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition .......................................................................................................................................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole..............................................................................................................................................

Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ........................................................................................................................................... E. George MacMinn Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk ...............................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hans ard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet.

Party Standings: Liberal 74; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 3 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L)............................................................... Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) ..................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L)....................................................................................North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ..............................................................................East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................... Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)..........................................

Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L) ........................................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Brenzinger, Elayne (Ind. L)...........................................................Surrey-Whalley Brice, Hon. Susan (L)...................................................................... Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L) ................................................. Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) ..............................................

Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Gulzar S. (L).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Hon. Ida (L) ......................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ...................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Clark, Hon.

Christy (L) ....................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ................................................................................Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon. Gary (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon.

Kevin (L) ............................................................ Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Greg (L) ............................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)..............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon. Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Hon.

Roger (L) ................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L) ........................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)................................................................... Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) .....................................................................................

Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L).............................................................. Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L) ................................................................ Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L).................................................................... Chilliwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ............................................................. Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) .................................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L).........................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................. Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ............................................................ Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) ..............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ..................................................................................... Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L).............................................................

New Westminster Nebbeling, Ted (L)..................................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L) ...................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .......................................................

Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L).....................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Orr, Sheila (L) .............................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)......................................................................... Chilliwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ...........................................................

Richmond-Steveston Reid, Judith (L)....................................................................... Nanaimo-Parksville Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).......................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L) ..............................................

West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Lynn (L).................................................................................... Langley Stewart, Ken (L)........................................................ Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L)........................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L)..................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)..................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L)...................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).......................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Katherine (L).............................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)..............................................................................Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)..............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ........................................................................

Gillian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds.............................................................................. Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North..................................................................................... John Wilson Cariboo South........................................................................................Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ................................................................................ Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ........................................................................... Hon.

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke .....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville............................................................... Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .........................................................Hon. Graham P.

Bruce Delta North.............................................................................................Reni Masi Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .....................................................................................Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin .................................................................... Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon.

Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson.......................................................... Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .................................................................John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ...................................................................Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley........................................................................................... Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca.......................................................................

Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows............................................................... Ken Stewart Nanaimo .............................................................................................Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville..............................................................................Judith Reid Nelson-Creston......................................................................... Blair F.

Suffredine New Westminster .................................................................... Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast .......................................................................................... Bill Belsey North Island.......................................................................................... Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale .................................................... Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour ..............................................................

Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head.................................................................Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon ..............................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain......................................................Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood ...........................................................Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast............................................................Harold Long Prince George North .........................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .................................................................

Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre ...................................................................Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ...................................................................Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South............................................................................. Hon. Susan Brice Shuswap ................................................................................

Hon. George Abbott Skeena .......................................................................................Hon. Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ..................................................................................Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge............................................................ Gulzar S.

Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ........................................................................ Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock.......................................................................... Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview..................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Vancouver-Fraserview .....................................................................

Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings......................................................................... Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington .................................................................... Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway............................................................................ Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara...................................................................... Val J. Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ...............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.....................................................................................Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary ......................................................Hon. Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi............................................................

Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .....................................................................................Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Thursday, April 29, 2004 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 10681 Tributes ....................................................................................................................... ............................................................ 10681 Rudolph Sieg R. Hawes Kerrie Sieg and Herman Cheung R.

Hawes Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 10681 Crime Prevention Awards A. Hamilton Lyme disease B. Kerr Youth Week K. Manhas Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 10683 Retroactivity clause in legislation on health support workers J. MacPhail Hon. C. Hansen Hon. G. Bruce Arbitration option in legislation on health support workers R.

Hawes Hon. G. Bruce Financial assistance for post-secondary students S. Orr Hon. S. Bond High-speed Internet access in Kootenays W. McMahon Hon. J. Murray Impact of legislation on health support workers J. Kwan Hon. C.

Hansen Tabling Documents.............................................................................................................. .................................................. 10686 Workers Compensation Board, annual report, 2003 Workers Compensation Board, service plan, 2005-06 Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 10686 Estimates: Ministry of Advanced Education (continued) J. Kwan Hon. S.

Bond Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 10705 Estimates: Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management Hon. G. Abbott J. MacPhail Hon. S. Santori K. Manhas

10681 THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 The House met at 2:04 p.m. Prayers. [1405] Introductions by Members Hon. R. Harris: It's actually not that often we have someone from Skeena coming down to visit. I can't seem to find her at the moment, but up in the gallery we have a very good friend of mine. She happens to work in the district forest office up in Terrace. She's down here in Victoria just basking, I think, in the lovely weather and enjoying herself and having a great holiday. Would the House please welcome Heimke Haldane. J. Kwan: Visiting us today is Warren Kline.

Warren is a fourth-year engineering student at the University of Victoria, and today is the second-to-last day of his co-op program with the Legislative Assembly, com- puter services branch. In addition to taking on a full load as a student, Warren is also a dedicated foster parent to two teenage boys, and he and his wife are expecting their first baby this October. Would the House please welcome Warren to this Legislature. Hon. C. Clark: On behalf of the Prem ier, I am de- lighted to be able to welcome to the chamber today a group from Queen Mary Elementary School in Van- couver.

There are 76 grade 5 students here to observe our proceedings. They are jo ined by their dedicated teachers, Ms. King, Ms. Dixon and Mr. Carpenter. I hope the House will make them welcome. Hon. G. Plant: I am delighted to have the opportu- nity today to welcome to the precincts and the gallery two constituents of the Minister of Health Services. They're actually connections and friends of my family: Marjorie and Reid Mitchell. Marjorie will be well known to many west-side Vancouver people for her work in the real estate busi ness.

Reid is, along with my father, a member of the UBC Thunderbird Hall of Fame for the 1948 UBC Thunderbird basketball team and was an Olympian. He was a member of the 1948 Canadian Olympic basketball team and went to London to play on behalf of Canada. In addition to all those other many good things, Marjorie and Reid Mitchell are the parents of my ministerial assistant and longtime assis- tant, Joan Dick. For all of those reasons, I'm very glad to see them here today. I hope members of the House will welcome them to the proceedings. A. Hamilton: Visiting us today are four of my con- stituents.

They are Ron Boyce; his father, Murray Boyce; his mother, Tracy Bryant; and his grandmother, Jeanette Bryant. Would the House please make them all very welcome. Tributes RUDOLPH SIEG R. Hawes: Two nights ago Rudolph Sieg passed away in Kelowna. He's the father of my constituency assistant Wilson Sieg and the grandfather of Kerrie Sieg, who works in the Prem ier's office. I would ask that the House send condolences to both Kerrie and Wilson. KERRIE SIEG AND HERMAN CHEUNG R. Hawes: I would also like to note that Kerrie will be leaving. I think today may be her last day working for us here.

She will be leaving with Herman Cheung for Ottawa to take up a position with the Conservative Party there. Herman, of course, is our computer wiz- ard. I'd like to also ask the House — all of us — to wish them best of luck in their new positions in Ottawa. Mr. Speaker: So ordered. Introductions by Members J. Bray: O n b e h a l f o f t h e M i n i s t e r o f W a t e r , L a n d and Air Protection, it's my pleasure to introduce four hard-working staff members from that ministry who are down visiting Victoria for the weekend and have chosen to take in question period today.

These staff members are Patricia Mars h, Diana Gallacher, Lisa Paquin and Kelsey Selbee, and I'd ask the House to please make these hard-working public servants very welcome. [1410] B. Kerr: I'm going to be making a statement to the House in a few minutes. I'd just like to introduce the two people that introduced me to this topic. Pat Cooley is a Lyme disease awareness and support group for Vancouver Island, and Lee Haines is a biochemist spe- cializing in vector-borne diseases. Would the House make them feel very welcome. M.

Hunter: It always surprises me that people would leave Nanaimo on a beautiful day like today to come to Victoria, but two people in the gallery did. I had the pleasure of having lunch with them today. They are Wendy Smitka and Gord Halkett. Would the House please make them welcome. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) CRIME PREVENTION AWARDS A. Hamilton: Every year the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General hosts an awards ceremony to recognize individuals and organizations across the province who have made outstanding contributions in the field of crime preventi on and community safety.

10682 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 Selected for their commitment, perseverance, innova- tion and contribution by representatives of the safe communities working group, these award winners are exemplary members of our community and should be congratulated by all. I was quite proud to learn that one of my young constituents had been nominated for one of these awards. He was later given a youth leadership award along with only one other young person in B.C.

Ron Boyce, who I introduced earlier, at 13 years old is a fine example of how young people can make a difference in our community working side by side with adults to encourage community safety. Over the past summer Ron volunteered with the Rock Solid Foundation to help develop and promote methods of dealing with violence and intimidation among youth. With the help of people like Ron, this organization has already communicated with over 500,000 young people in the greater Victoria area. Ron has also been an active and eager participant in phase 2 of the Trackside Art Gallery project.

This pro- ject is one that I find particularly interesting. He has helped with other Rock Solid volunteers to transform a dangerous urban corridor into a safe, clean and beauti- ful community space that all residents can be proud of. Every year new works of art are unveiled, painted by local young artists, sponsored by local businesses and organizations. The track site art project is now a posi- tive place for gathering to associate with positive community togetherness instead of drugs and violence, as in the past.

In keeping with this focus on community involve- ment projects, Ron has the admirable career goal of one day becoming a community police officer. This is a path I can, from experience, assure him will be both rewarding and beneficial throughout his life. I congratulate Ron on his success, and I urge him to continue playing an active role in the community. I urge all young British Columbians to get involved and discover the rich rewards that come with volunteerism.

I would also like to congratulate all recipients of the Community Safety and Crime Prevention Awards who have worked hard to make a difference in the commu- nity. You are leaders of a much larger movement to improve the health of our neighbourhoods, and I commend you on all your efforts. LYME DISEASE B. Kerr: When I first moved to the Island, we took our son's dog, a beautiful malamute husky, for a romp in the woods. When we arrived home, I was shocked to see a number of black marks on Kimo. Upon inspection I discovered they were deer ticks.

Upon further inves- tigation I found that althou gh ticks do carry a number of pathogens, my area of Vancouver Island carries the most dangerous pathogen, called Lyme disease. Lyme disease has only been recognized since 1975. Left untreated, late-stage Lyme disease is a debilitating arthritic and neurological il lness that may mimic many of 200 other diseases such as MS, ALS, chronic fatigue syndrome, reactive arthritis, Lupus or Crohn's disease. Vancouver Island supports the right combination of environmental factors to facilitate the proliferation of ticks.

Tick season begins in spring and goes through to the end of June. Studies have shown that up to 6 percent of ticks will carry this debilitating pathogen. Because of the type of testing currently us ed in B.C., many patients are not being diagnosed with Lyme disease. Conse- quently, the treatment is not always appropriate for the circumstance. This begs the question: what percentage of chroni- cally ill patients of Vancouver Island actually have un- diagnosed tick-borne infections?

With recognition and treatment, many chronically ill patients who actually have Lyme disease could be brought to better health and lessen the burden on ou r social and health care systems. Some tips that should be followed at this time of year are: always wear a hat when you're in the woods, particularly when you're looking for your golf balls and, if possible, wear a hat with neck protection. If you have a tick…. Interjection. [1415] B. Kerr: My colleague from Maple Ridge says he never goes in the woods.

If you have a tick, send the tick to the Centre for Disease Control, and they can determine if it has Lyme disease. If you are experiencing symptoms after being infected with a tick, see your doctor, but be sure you have your blood test before taking any antibiotics. The test for Lyme disease is based on antibodies in the body, and taking antibiotics will undermine the value of the tests. In essence, we must recognize on the Island the prevalence of Lyme disease and recognize the latest and most appropriate testing techniques.

My under- standing is that with a prop er diagnosis, health care dollars can be saved and patients' suffering reduced. Thank you very much for allowing me the opportunity to bring forward this rather esoteric but nonetheless important risk that we experience on Vancouver Is- land. YOUTH WEEK K. Manhas: Yesterday I had the wonderful oppor- tunity to speak to a group of kids from across the lower mainland, including kids from the Coquitlam area.

It was a gathering of the Student Street Squad in Burnaby along with Barb Stegemann, Coquitlam's director of tourism, who talked about challenges she overcame in her life and gave an inspiring talk on visualization. It was an awesome start to what's in store in the week ahead. Next week marks International Youth Week, May 1 to 7. Youth Week is an international celebration of the efforts, energies and positive contributions that youth

THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10683 put into their communities all year round. It's an op- portunity for people around the world to learn about and from young people. To kick off B.C.'s Youth Week, I'll be joining local youth in my neighbourhood where they'll disperse around the city to dispense random acts of kindness. Leigh Square will be the stage for the youth festival in Poco, while Teen Idol, a showcase of youth talent, will take the stage. I'll be watching precariously from the cage filled with water where I'll be the dunk-tank target.

Carly Travers and the Youth Matters! group — an initiative I started last year to build assets, empower youth and build relations amongst teens and the rest of the community — will be hosting Bring in the Noise, Bring in the Peace, a battle of the bands on the main stage, and a run-up version to the bigger Rock City Coquitlam concert. The kids will be involved with planning through Youth Matters! On Sunday there will be a scavenger hunt at the request and inspiration of a local reporter and events throughout the rest of the week.

Youth Week is a great opportunity for everyone, no matter their age, to get up, have fun and connect to youth in the community. Young people will inspire you, teach you about yourself, introduce you to all kinds of different things — music, poetry, art, movies, sports and things that you may have never found on your own. Adults are welcome, too, at Youth Week events. You know, it only takes one adult that shows inter- est and faith in a young person to help that young per- son succeed, and I'm sure we can all remember those few who helped us and shaped our lives.

This Youth Week, be that change for a young person you would otherwise not have met. Come out and celebrate at events around the province . Events can be found in your local community newspaper or by logging on to bcyouthweek.com. Mr. Speaker: That concludes members' statements. Oral Questions RETROACTIVITY CLAUSE IN LEGISLATION ON HEALTH SUPPORT WORKERS J. MacPhail: Earlier today the member for Peace River South said that had he understood the implica- tions of the retroactivity clause in the legislation rammed through the Legislature yesterday, he might have rethought his support for the bill.

A few minutes later, the Health minister insisted there was no retroac- tive compensation takeback to April 1. It would be nice if the members of government had read and under- stood their own legislation before casting their vote. To the Health minister. He has probably had a chance to read the bill he rammed through last night. Will he now stand up and tell health care workers how this retroactive stripping of wages will work? Will health care workers be required to cut a cheque to the government, or will this minister require them to work for free until they've paid off the debt to the company store? Hon. C.

Hansen: The member is misquoting me. I never said in any interview this morning that there was no retroactive component to this bill. What is impor- tant is that there are options for the workers, and that is set out clearly in the bill. They can go the route of the arbitrator that gives them more flexibility around the mix of wages and benefits, and once the workers un- derstand the details of this, I think they will realize the fairness of the approach we've taken. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has another question. J. MacPhail: Unbelievable.

I don't know what's worse — the vicious attacks on working families and patient care in Bill 37 or the fact that the members of this government caucus and apparently the Minister of H e a l t h h a d n o i d e a w h a t t h e y w e r e v o t i n g f o r b u t stood in blind obedience to the Premier and made this law. [1420] There is no option about retroactivity. No matter what this government does to these workers, their wages and compensation are retroactive to April 1 — a minimum of one month full retroactivity.

We understand the government caucus received a briefing today on Bill 37 — a bit late, but at least they finally got one. Now that the Minister of Health and the member for Peace River South have been briefed on the bill they voted for already, can the Minister of Health explain to this Ho use how he can possibly jus- tify forcing health care providers to pay back the wages they've received for work they've performed in good faith throughout the month of April? Hon. G. Bruce: The contract expired at the end of March of this year.

The unfortunate thing is that we had been able to fashion an agreement between the parties during the course of last year. It was called the tentative framework agreement. Had the parties at that time accepted and understood what it was all about… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G. Bruce: …they would have — and had the leadership of the union gone and tried hard, vigorously to sell this deal — found a situation… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G.

Bruce: …where much of the anxiety that had been displayed during this past while would have been mitigated, and you would have had peace in the labour field right now. Quite frankly, we canvassed

10684 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 this for hours last night, and you're continuing along a path that is spewing misinformation. J. MacPhail: What misinformation? The bill has a retroactive clause on wages and compensation. There is no misinformation. It's here in writing. Working people who have given their time throughout the month of April to care for the patients are going to have to cut a cheque or work for free. That's the truth. Over and over again the Premier told health care workers they had nothing to worry about. He said he v a l u e d t h e m .

H e s a i d h e w o u l d n ' t r i p u p t h e i r c o n - tracts. Now he's cut their wages, taken their jobs away, and they're either going to ha ve to work for free or cut a cheque to this government for the wage reduction for the month of April. Laura Ferguson has worked as a health care worker for 17 years as a pre-admissions clerk. She's a single mom. She has two children. She's trying to pay for her daughter to go to college. Her son requires special medical care. With this legislation she's worried that she's going to lose her job as well as have to take a huge pay cut for the time she's already put in.

Why did the Premier not tell the truth to Ms. Ferguson when he said she had nothing to worry about? Hon. G. Bruce: I think it's very important at this point that people understand there is an election that the members of the union can take by asking me to appoint an arbitrator. J. MacPhail: What has that got to do with my ques- tion? You can still contract out the jobs regardless. Did you read your legislation? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G. Bruce: What's important about this is in respect to the reduction of wages, if an arbitrator is put into position.… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Minister, we'll continue when we have order, and we'll add the time on at the end of question period. Would you like to start again, please. Hon. G. Bruce: What's important to understand is that there's an election the members can take — the union. They can ask within the next 14 days…. This concerns me greatly. While there are different things taking place, they don't take the action that's necessary. What will happen with an arbitrator being asked…. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G.

Bruce: With an arbitrator put in place, they then can take the entire package of both wages and benefits…. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. [1425] Hon. G. Bruce: The reduction required in respect to the dollars and cents would be greatly mitigated. In fact, if a person had eigh t weeks or seven weeks and decided through the contract and the negotiation — the arbitration process — that they wished to reduce that by a week, then the amount that would actually have to be reduced in real dollars to income would be much smaller.

So it's very, very important that the person you were speaking about understands that their union has to make a decision here. My concern is that during the last go-round with the tentative framework agree- ment, the union didn't unde rstand the full component, and they've put themselves in a difficult position. I do not want to see that happen again. ARBITRATION OPTION IN LEGISLATION ON HEALTH SUPPORT WORKERS R. Hawes: I've already had a couple of phone calls, and I want to ask the Minister of Skills Development and Labour about Bill 37.

My question is on that topic as well, and it covers some of what I think he was just trying to answer. But I coul dn't hear the answer, so I don't think the constituents who are asking me ques- tions could hear it either. If the members of the opposi- tion could try to be a little bit polite… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. R. Hawes: …and understand the world isn't revolv- ing around them…. There are workers in this province who want to hear these answ ers. My question, then, to the Minister of Skills Development and Labour would be… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. R.

Hawes: …around the arbitration option. The w o r k e r s t h a t h a v e c a l l e d m e w a n t t o k n o w : e x a c t l y what is their option here with respect to the arbitrator, and what does that mean to their paycheques? De- pending on which way they choose to go, what is the impact here? If my constituents could be allowed to hear the answer. If you could ask them to just…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please.

THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10685 Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Will the Leader of the Opposition please come to order. Hon. G. Bruce: That's very important — that under the legislation, it is written that at this point the reduc- tion of wages is 11 percent off direct wages. If the un- ion asks me to appoint an arbitrator within the next 14 days, that arbitrator then can, with the parties, work through whether some of that reduction comes out of benefits such as vacation time and things like that.

Per- haps if they had five or six weeks' holidays, they might decide they want to give up a week's holiday, and then that reduction against wages would be substantially less. Also, there's a difference in the total sum. Instead of an 11 percent reduction, which is as the bill is written right now, it would be a 10 percent reduction, and it would have the ability to be over both salaries and benefits. It's very important that union members of the HEU understand that component, because it represents to them a very substantive amount of money. FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE FOR POST-SECONDARY STUDENTS S.

Orr: My question is actually to the Minister of Advanced Education. In a riding like Victoria-Hillside, I have many young people with financial challenges, so getting a post-secondary ed ucation is often dependent on the availability of government scholarship or bur- sary money. I have received a lot of phone calls and letters from students who are worried about the elimi- nation of the B.C. student grant program. Will the min- ister please explain how my constituents on low in- comes are going to be able to access post-secondary education without this source of funding? Hon. S.

Bond: On budget day this year we did an- nounce that we were converting the grant program in the province. What we did was create a loan program instead so that…. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Madam Minister, we'll c o n t i n u e w h e n w e h a v e o r d e r i n t h e c h a m b e r . P l e a s e continue. Hon. S. Bond: We converted the grant program to a loan program. Students, particularly those most in need, will continue to have access to the number of dollars; they simply will be in the form of a loan rather than a grant.

At the same time, we announced the fact that we are working to redesign the program and will be working on a program that will look at a number of options, including remission and course completion grants. We're doing consultation at the moment, and we'll hopefully be able to announce that in the near future. [1430] Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, if the members of the opposition will conform to the rules of the House…. They know very well that they will be able to ask a question in this House. If no t, then I assume they don't wish to. HIGH-SPEED INTERNET ACCESS IN KOOTENAYS W.

McMahon: My question is to the Minister of Management Services. High-speed broadband digital Internet access will be delivered to 11 regional Kootenay centres through a province-facilitated agreement between the Co lumbia Mountain Open Network and Telus. We have a huge need and a desire for this service. A number of communities will now be able to access high-speed Internet for the first time, thanks to this partnership. To the minister: what impact will this have eco- nomically and educationally for my constituents, and when can we expect high-speed broadband access to be delivered to those 11 regional centres?

Hon. J. Murray: This was a huge announcement for 11 communities in the East Kootenays. Revelstoke, Invermere and Golden are th ree that are in the mem- ber's riding. They will have the high-speed Internet access by either the end of October or the end of No- vember of this year. All 11 will receive those connec- tions this year. This is one of the biggest things I've heard in terms of good news in those communities, and why is that? It's because parents who would like to stay at home with their young children and continue to work from home will be able to.

It's because we will be able to have a level playing field where people in remote communities will have the same opportunities that I enjoy in New Westminster and others enjoy in urban centres to access high-speed Internet and be able… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Would the Leader of the Opposition please try to get herself under control. Please continue. Hon. J. Murray: …to take courses, to be able to use teleconferencing opportunities to be able to manage their own health care by accessing high-speed Internet.

So all of those kinds of opportunities that we are beginning to take for granted but we actually really need for our qual- ity of life will be available in those communities too. IMPACT OF LEGISLATION ON HEALTH SUPPORT WORKERS J. Kwan: You know, Mr. Speaker, what is important for this government to understand is that the Premier

10686 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 made a commitment to not rip up collective agree- ments, and then the Premier ripped up collective agreements. Marianna Juras works as a housekeeper in a Victo- ria hospital. She's an immigrant from Croatia and has been working as a health care worker since she came to British Columbia. She has a mortgage and a son in grade 12 who wants to become a respiratory therapist. Her last day of work is on September 17. She doesn't know how she will pay her bills as a result of Bill 37. Again to the minister: wh y did the Premier tell Ms.

Juras that he valued her work? Why did the Premier tell her that she had nothing to worry about when he knew that isn't true? Hon. C. Hansen: I think when the members want to see the root cause of the challenges that we're facing, they should actually go look in the mirror. During the 1990s when the NDP were in office, we saw the sweet- heart deals that were signed between the Premier's office and the Hospital Employees Union, which took money out of patient care and diverted it instead into making the support staff in this province so much higher paid — 20 to 40 percent higher than any other province.

What we are doing is bringing those costs into line, because we have to put patien ts first. We have to make sure that we get costs in line with what other jurisdic- tions are facing, and that is exactly what we are ac- complishing through this legislation. [End of question period.] [1435] Tabling Documents Hon. G. Bruce: I have the honour to present the 2003 annual report and the 2005-06 service plan for the Workers Compensation Board. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: In Committee A, I call Committee of Supply for the consideration of the estimates of the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management.

In this chamber, I call Committee of Supply. For the informa- tion of members, it will be the estimates of the Ministry of Advanced Education. Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:38 p.m. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ADVANCED EDUCATION (continued) On vote 9: ministry operations, $1,898,849,000 (con- tinued). J. Kwan: Tuesday morning, when we last discussed the ministry's estimates, we were on the issues around the cancellation of the student grant programs by this provincial government.

The minister says that there is a remission program, loan remissions, and post-degree grant programs being looked into by the government. Notwithstanding, a student reporter tried to access the minister after the information was out through the budget. The minister didn't return phone calls in spite of repeated attempts by the student reporter to get hold of the minister.

Of course, the government's communi- cations person said that there is no plan for the existing grant program to be replaced. [1440] Now, the government says they are going through a process of consultation, and through the estimates, the minister admitted that the consultation took place after the

article of March 11 — the Martlet

article where the issues were raised with respect to the plans for the loan remission and completion grant programs. The minister says they ar e in the process of compil- ing the information. I'm asking the minister whether or not she would release the information that she's re- ceived through the consultation on the cancellation of the grant program for students. I seek leave to make some introductions. Leave granted. Introductions by Members J. Kwan: There are three guests sitting in the gallery today. I would like to introduce to the House Beni Lo- pez.

Beni is originally from the Philippines but came to Canada 23 years ago, where he has since raised five children. Beni has been a bu ilding service attendant at the Victoria General Hospital for 17 of those 23 years, and like so many of his co-workers in the HEU, Beni has received a pink slip. Beni is a father of five, strug- gling to make ends meet, and someone very concerned over his future. Also here today is Laura Ferguson…. The Chair: Member, there's a time limitation on the amount you can say about people in introductions. I just ask you to limit that, please. J. Kwan: Thank you, Mr.

Chair, and I will certainly follow the traditions of the House with respect to in- troductions. Also here today is Laura Ferguson. Laura has been an HEU pre-admission clerk for 17 years. She's also a single mom with two children at home, one of whom has ADHD. Laura came down to the Legislature last night to watch the debate but was not allowed into the building. I'm glad to see that she's made it here today. My third guest is Valerie Flowers. Valerie is a housekeeper at the VGH, where she has worked for the last 14 years. Valerie is fi rst nations, a mom of three children.

She, too, is facing difficult changes in the days ahead.

THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10687 Beni, Laura and Valerie came down to the House to watch today's proceedings. I would like the House to welcome these three special guests. Debate Continued Hon. S. Bond: Firstly, I want to go back and correct the record. I think the impression's been left that I did not contact the student report er. I did. I certainly take responsibility for the fact that there was a series of communications between staff and e-mail before that interview took place. However, I did do the inte rview on April 1, and in the

article that was subs equently printed by the Mart- let, which was not quoted by the member opposite, I said very clearly that we are consulting our stake- holders, including students, to make sure we create a program that works for them. So, in fact, I did speak to the student reporter. To further clarify, after the first

article in the Martlet appeared, my communications director contacted the student reporter immediately to point out that the comments in the

article were not direct quotes of hers and did not reflect the complete discussion that took place. For the record and to clarify that, it's important to me that that does take place, and I do take responsi- bility for the gap in terms of the time that the calls were m a d e t o m e . I t w a s f o l l o w e d u p , a n d a r e p o r t w a s done. It's interesting. It was a lengthy interview, and I think I'm quoted in about th ree sentences of that inter- view.

More important to me than that, let's go back to the budget and fiscal plan announcement that was made, because there seems to be so me skepticism on the part of the member opposite that we're actually doing the work to create the program. That's unfair to students in this province.

The Finance mi nister said: "The Ministry o f A d v a n c e d E d u c a t i o n w i l l b e w o r k i n g t o a d j u s t i t s programs to assist those students most in need and determine how best to harmonize its student aid pro- grams, and they will also be considering options, in- cluding completion grants and loan remissions." Budget day was in February of this year. That commitment was made publicly. We continue to work on that, and we will soon be receiving the information. J. Kwan: I'll tell you what is unfair. It's what this government is doing to workers in British Columbia.

What is unfair is what this government is doing to stu- dents in British Columbia. The government is cancel- ling student grant programs, and then they claim that there is better access. [1445] You know, the minister claims that she did return the call to the student on April 1, and yes, she did. Sub- sequently, on April 8 the ar ticle was printed. But you know what? The first contact for the article, when the student tried to get hold of this minister, was on March 11.

"After 17 phone calls, 12 e-mails, four faxes, three assistants and two offices, the minister still had not gotten back to me to comment on the promised student loan remission and post-degree grant programs." That's a direct quote from the

article itself. Gee, I wonder: if Keith Baldrey is trying to get a hold of the minister, would he actually have to go through 17 phone calls, 12 e-mails, four faxes, three assistants and two offices to get access to the minister? No. This government in fact actually brings forward legislation just so they can make it on the 6 o'clock news, like they did yesterday with Bill 37. Talk about access and fairness. Then, you know what? The minister says the com- munications director was not quoted properly. Well, the

article writes this, and it 's not a direct quote from the communications director. The point is this. I actu- ally trust the reporting of the student rather than the word of this government, because the student has ac- tually put this information forward, and I trust this information to be factual.

It reads, from the article: "I was referred to" — it actually names the minister's name — "the minister's communications director, Karen McDonald, the same assistant who told me she could not officially comment two weeks earlier, when I se nt her a list of questions about the promised programs , and who refused to re- turn numerous calls and e-mails." A list of questions were sent to the minister. Good grief. Even then, after 17 phone calls, 12 e-mails, four faxes, three assistants and two offices, the reporter was not able to make con- tact until April 1. The

article goes on to say that what McDonald did know, however, was that no solid plans for the student loan remission and post-degree grant programs were in the works. According to McDonald, B.C. student loan remission and post-degree grant programs will not be in place this year, and no details on who will be consulted in the making of the programs have been set. I trust the information that has been put forward by the student any day, compared to members' — and particularly government members' — information. Hon. R. Thorpe: Honour. Remember honour. J. Kwan: Exactly.

Maybe the government members should remember the word "honour" to see what it means. Maybe they should put it on their foreheads so that every morning when they wake up and look at themselves in the mirror, th ey may actually reflect on what they did the day before — like yesterday — and see whether or not the word still shines on their fore- heads. The Chair: Let's confine…. Member, take your seat, please. I just want to remind the member that we are deal- ing with the Ministry of Advanced Education. I'd like to keep her remarks and her questions confined to that ministry, please. J. Kwan: The April 8 Martlet

article reads: "Students shouldn't hold their breath awaiting the grant replace- ment program promised by the B.C. Liberals in their

10688 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 February 17 budget announcement, according to the Advanced Education minister ." Again, it names the minister. "The minister assures students a grant re- placement program is in th e works, but implementa- tion is still far off. 'My staff is looking at the other grant programs across the country to see what works. I can't say for sure when the program will be in place.'" That's a direct quote from the minister.

Then the minister goes on to say: "'We're consulting our stakeholders, includ- ing students, to make sure we create a program that works for them.'" How's it going? The government knew in February that they were going to cancel a critically needed pro- gram for students, and then they cancelled the program. Then it was almost as if they had forgotten they prom- ised a degree completion program or a grant remission program. It's almost as though they had forgotten until people got on to the minister's case and this govern- ment's case.

Then all of a sudden they remembered they had better go and do some consultation. [1450] To date: February, the announcement came out — program gone; April, the end of April — April 29 today — no information on when the program will be out. The minister claims that th ey're working on consulting across the country with respect to this new loan remis- sion program and completion grant program. When exactly will this program be in place? Hon. S. Bond: I've answered that question several times, but I'm happy to do it again.

I just want to make one comment about how dis- appointing it is that when we're working hard to put a program in place that I am absolutely certain the member opposite would be supportive of when we're trying to assist students, we're casting doubts about a process…. In fact, I should also clarify the record. I said yes- terday that I didn't have the dates in terms of the be- ginning of the consultation. The letter to stakeholders to be consulted went out…. We believe the date was March 16. So those meetings have been underway since just a month after the budget was delivered in this province.

Since that time we've met with a significant number of groups, which we think is a great idea. Be- fore we design the new program, we thought we should actually talk to people about that. My goal is to have my staff…. I have said to them: " I w a n t y o u t o b e i n c l u s i v e a n d t h o r o u g h . " I a l s o b e - lieve that…. You know what? Other people in other parts of this country do things well as well. So I've asked them to look at models across the country. I've asked them to talk to people within this province, and that work is underway.

I've said more than once that my goal is to have a program in place by the end of the school year, the academic year 2004-05, so there is no gap in the provi- sion of service. J. Kwan: You just don't know what version of the minister's story to take, because in the Hansard of Tuesday, April 27, the minister says: "We are working hard, and to clarify the member's concerns, the consul- tation did take place in Apri l. From that perspective, the point is that the Finance minister made that com- mitment on budget day." So they cancelled the pro- gram in February.

They di d the consultation, as the minister said she did, in April. That was as of Tuesday morning. So now the story changes. It's sort of like many of the stories of this govern- ment. They keep on changing. You kind of have to have an Energizer Bunny to follow the minister to see where things are going, because at every turn on issues it changes. And here we are — yet another change. But you know what? We'll just leave that for a moment. What's really important is this. The minister claims that she cares about students. She is so caring about students that she thought: "Okay, here's a bright idea — budget day.

Oh, let's go and announce that we're going to cancel a grant program for students. Then let's do that cancellation withou t any consultation with the students who will be impacted by the cancellation of the program. But because we care so much, we're going to consult with them to see what program should be in place afterwards." Well, if you really did care, one might have actually put the consultation in place before this government cancelled the program.

If th ere are genuine intentions from the government to put a better program in place, well then, do the consultation before you cancel the program and have a replacement ready to go before you cancel the program. No, not so. Not this government. Why? Because their intentions, in my belief, are not in the best inter- ests of students. That is a laugh. What this government cares about and what this minister cares about is the bottom line. What they care about is their own ideol- ogy. They don't care about access to education for stu- dents.

They don't care about low-income people who are trying to get better access to programs. That's why they cancelled the student grant program. The minister says: "Okay, we're consulting now." I suppose it's better late than never. If they had done it right, they wouldn't have cancelled the grant program to begin with. They would have done consultations to see if there was a way to enhance the program with students and others impacted by it and those who have knowledge in the field — would have done that and then had a program ready to go.

But no, not so. [1455] Now, what is the minister's rationale for creating a new loan remissions and completion grant program? What caused the minister to think that is better, by cancelling the grant program that existed prior to budget day? Hon. S. Bond: Just in terms of the comments about my changing stories, I went back yesterday to clarify the information for the member opposite so I could be as accurate as possible in the House today. It has noth- ing to do with changing a story. In fact, consultation has continued throughout the month of April. The let-

THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10689 ters of invitation — the actual date I was given — were sent to the stakeholders on March 16. I didn't have that at my fingertips yesterday, so I was happy to provide that information to you. Consultation did continue throughout the month of April. As a matter of fact, it hasn't finished yet. We're still working on that. In terms of the rationale, first of all, virtually no other province in the country has an upfront grant program any longer. One of the things we looked at was the practice across the country.

Second, the other i s s u e w a s t h a t w e w a n t e d t o b e a b l e t o s e n d a s m a n y dollars as possible to the institutions to help benefit the 300,000 students across the system. So what it enabled u s t o d o i s w h i l e w e m a k e t h e s h i f t t o t h e r e m i s s i o n s and completion grant program, we were able to restore funding and, in fact, add ad ditional dollars to institu- tions across the province. What we've seen as a result of that is exactly what we knew would happen.

We wanted to make sure we could mitigate some of the tuition increases that impact every student in this provin ce. That's precisely what happened. We have, as a matter of fact, Vancouver Community College — an institution the member op- posite is well aware of — having a zero percent tuition increase. So all of the stud ents benefited from those additional dollars. There was a series of reason s for doing it. It's always a balancing issue. It was not an easy decision to make, and I made that clear yesterday in my comments.

But the good news is that this is a government that is actu- ally adding 25,000 seats to the post-secondary education system by the year 2009-10, probably the most signifi- cant addition in terms of a ccess for students in decades in this province. So to suggest that we don't care…. We made a difficult decision. We 're trying to balance very difficult circumstances, but we intend to put together a loan completion or a remissi on program that will meet the needs of those students most in need. J. Kwan: It's unbelievable when you hear the minis- ter's answer.

She says: "Oh, we looked across the coun- try, and virtually no other province is providing a grant program." Well, then le t's just adopt the practice of racing to the bottom and taking away grant pro- grams for students, why don't we? That's what this government has done. If you apply that logic to another area, like retroac- tive wage rollbacks, maybe the government will find that virtually no other province is doing that. Why are they doing that now — leading the charge?

Where things are good for students and good for communi- ties, you'd think that this government would lead the charge to support communities. Absolutely not. Where it is damaging for communities and students, the gov- ernment wants to lead the charge on that to make sure they're on the bottom of the list. They are leading the charge exactly. That's what this government is doing. [1500] To hear the minister's answer is just baffling when she claims that she supports and wants to be there for students, that she cares very much about students. I tell you.

Then the minister says: "Well, you know, we made these tough decisions, and we had to make these tough decisions, and we didn't like them, but we had to make them anyway." The minister knew full well what the government was doing when they lifted the tuition fee freeze. When the government lifted that, they knew exactly what was going to happen, and, yes, tuition fees skyrocketed. For example, B.C. university tuition increased by some 70 percent. College tuition increased by some 150 percent. In fact, increases are still taking place in some of the universities and colleges in British Columbia this fiscal year.

As I said, I will get into the tuition fee issue in full detail in these estimates. The claim and suggestion that the government took this $80 million grant program away from students who are in need so they co uld mitigate tuition fee in- creases…. The government could have mitigated tui- tion fee increases by funding post-secondary education adequately. The government also took this $80 million grant program away to give to academic institutions for the spaces the government announced in the throne speech.

The Finance minister actually said that a large portion of the $80-million-a-year grant program will be given to academic institutions to increase capacity and mitigate tuition fees. So we know from the minister's own words that students are carrying additional bur- dens for these new spaces. Government, as we established earlier in the esti- mates debate, is not funding the increase in spaces adequately, so institutions will have to look elsewhere. Part of that would be from the grant programs this government took away.

I would like to canvass the minister if she has some specific numbers about how much this government would put into these remission and completion grant programs. Hon. S. Bond: F i r s t o f a l l , I j u s t w a n t t o … . A g a i n , the member opposite heard something I didn't say. The member opposite implied we were cancelling grants because nobody else had grants. The key words are "upfront grants." We're moving the program to the back end of a student's career, just as every other prov- ince in the country does. So to imply they don't have grant programs is incredibly….

Well, that's just inaccu- rate, and it's not what I said. Having said that, we don't have a number. That's because I've asked the staff to find as much money as possible to be able to put back into the loan remission or grant program, and it will depend on the model. We're looking at a variety of models. We might look at incentive grants. We may look at those grants for stu- dents most in need. It also depends on our interest rates. We also have to look at our bad-debt experience in terms of how we balance all of those things. [1505] [K.

Stewart in the chair.] As frustrating as it might seem to the member op- posite, we're actually trying to do a thorough job of

10690 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 figuring out a model that works well for students, find- ing the maximum number of dollars we can come up with. The good news is a program will be in place. It will reflect the needs of students, and it will also look at what's best in terms of what's happening in Canada right now. That's actually prudent management, as we sort out how to do this as best we possibly can. L. Mayencourt: I seek leave to make an introduc- tion. Leave granted. Introductions by Members L. Mayencourt: There are 132 young people that have just come into the gallery.

They are in grades 2 through 7. They're from Bayview Community School in Vancouver–Point Grey. They've come here with a big song in their hearts. They were in the rotunda just a little while ago, and they performed magnificently. Everybody that walked by was just thrilled by their appearance here. They're accompanied by 26 of their parents, too numerous to name. But I do want to rec- ognize in particular their choir director, Gail Hause, and the school coordinator, Brenda Devine. Would the House make these children very welcome. Debate Continued J.

Kwan: Prudent management — that this gov- ernment, this minister, ca res about students…. Well, there's the caring, and th ere's prudent management. The government cancelled a loan program that works for students before they di d any consultation with stu- dents, before they have a replacement program in place for students and before they even figured out how much money they would set aside for this program. There is caring. There is prudent management.

It's al- most as though the caring is overflowing off the side of the minister's desk — that it fell off into the wastebas- ket — until someone said: "Wai t a minute. We did say that we were going to look into a remissions program and a completion grant program. Better pick that up off the side of the desk and carve a little space for it." If the minister was genuine in her assertion that she cares about students and th is was a priority within government, then a minimum budget would have been set aside for the grant program. In fact, I would ven- ture to go as far as to say more than that.

The govern- ment would have had a replacement program in place and would have done the consultation before the grant program was eliminated, if the intent really was to look for a way to improve the program and ensure it pro- vides maximum support for students. No. That isn't what the government did, so one would have to ob- serve that the government's priority in helping stu- dents in greatest need is on the bottom of the list of things to do. The minister says she has told her staff to find as much money as possible. I have been a minister before.

With budgets in ministries, usually on budget day you are given X amount of money. It goes into whichever program. Generally speaking, you know how much money you have got and what programs it goes to. There aren't a lot of slush dollars lying around. One can only assume, given that there's no line item for this remission program, that there's nothing dedicated to- wards it in terms of dollars set aside for the program.

One has to wonder about the government's assertion that they actually care about students. [1510] If the minister says they'll try and find as much money as possible, can one assume that it will be at least $80 million — at least the same amount of money that the government took away — for the grant pro- gram? Hon. S. Bond: If I might digress for a moment, I have the pleasure of having an office very close — ac- tually, on the second floor of the rotunda — and I want to say to you that my assistant deputy minister and I were out there and that you did an absolutely wonder- ful job.

We all came out and listened, and you made part of our lunch hour much happier today. On behalf of my staff and I, who were getting ready, we just want to say thank you. You did an absolutely tremendous j o b , a n d i t w a s a d e l i g h t t o h a v e y o u h e r e i n t h e p r e - cinct today. Thank you for that. In terms of the amount, as I said earlier, I don't have the amount of money that we would be using, but we did make a conscious decision to redistribute some of those funds to institutions to try to bring benefit to the 300,000-plus students that are in the system.

Cur- rently, 5 percent of students benefit from the pool of dollars that were allocated to that program. We're try- ing to balance very difficult needs here. We're trying to create a loan program or a remission program that will meet the needs of students. We're trying to find as much money as possible to do that, and we're also sending more money to institutions to try to help stu- dents across the sector. J. Kwan: I, too, want to pause for a moment to wel- come the students.

You know, with them bringing a song to the Legislature from their hearts, all I can think about is Raffi's notion of a song that he wrote for the UN. To quote just a couple of phrases from the song, it's: "All you really need is a song in your heart, food in your belly and love in your family." When I look at ch ildren, I believe that really is the essence of children — the essence of what we need to provide to children so that they have opportunities to flourish and grow. Of course, educators in our com- munity do that day in and day out, and I want to thank them, as well, for the good work they do every day.

To the students: welcome to the Legislature. For the student grant program, the minister says they don't have a figure set down. The minister wouldn't commit that it would be at least $80 million, and I think that tells you something. Th e minister claims they are trying to redistribute. She calls it redistribution of the

THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10691 funds, and they use all kinds of fancy terms. At the end of the day, it comes down to this. The grant program is now gone, and there's no replacement program to date. We don't know when a replacement program would be available, and we don't even know how much money would be set aside for this replacement program. Prudent management? No. Caring for students and access to post-secondary education, particularly for students who are low-income? No. I would say not, given the actions of the government.

The minister says she is going around checking with other provinces to see what programs they have in place. What sorts of remission programs is the government looking at? What jurisdictions have th ey looked into, and what have they found? [1515] Hon. S. Bond: Well, not only have we looked at provinces, but we've actually looked at countries. We've looked at Australia, Denmark, France, Germany, New Zealand, Norway, Swed en, the United Kingdom, the United States and the Republic of Ireland. We found there are some very radical programs, actually, and some that probably won't work for us.

Also, we have looked at programs in Alberta, the Yukon and the Northwest Territories. We actually even looked at Nunavut to see what kinds of programs were in place. We mean business. We want to do a good job at looking at how we take these dollars and best apply them. The staff is doing an incredible job of the re- search work that they're doing, in combination with consultation with as many stakeholder groups as we can fit. We're still doing meetings, as a matter of fact, so we're trying to be as comprehensive as possible as we look at other models in existence. J.

Kwan: Oh, I have no doubt that the staff and the minister are very competent and doing an excellent job. They only do what the politic al masters tell them they have to do — absolutely. But you know what? They might have actually begun that excellent, competent work prior to the programs being cut if that was the wish of the political masters. But no, that is not the wish of the political masters. They wanted to cancel the program. Afterwards, they say: "Okay, go and look out there and see what's available.

We don't actually have a budget yet or a time line, but hey, go ahead and do that work." I have never doubted the public service in the good work they do provide to po liticians, no matter what stripe. I don't challenge that at all. What I am challeng- ing is this government's intentions and this minister's intentions from the start, wh en she claims that she ac- tually had something in pl ace and in mind and that they are working very hard and are very caring about students. Then what they do is actually go and cancel the program that is critical to students.

They don't have a replacement ready to go and haven't even begun the consultation prior to cancelling the program. There are some what I call credibility gaps going on here, Mr. Chair, with the minister's words. So the minister says she has gone out there, and ministry staff has looked at all kinds of jurisdictions in terms of what exists. What exactly did they find? Hon. S. Bond: As I indicated yesterday, incredible amounts of work are being done. You saw my assistant deputy minister haul out just two of the books. We have lots of information. I have not received the report back yet.

But we did learn one thing, in terms of the principle that we're looking at. Upfront grants, which is the program we are moving away from, are not used in most jurisdictions anymore. Th e reason is that there is little or no budget certainty when you deal with a grant program in that way, because it is dependent on things like how…. We have debt costs, we have interest rates, and there are a number of factors. The answer is that I have not received the report on my desk; my staff continues to do the research.

As the member opposite and I would agree, we have an in- credible staff in my ministry and in many of the other ones. They're continuing to do their job, and I antici- pate receiving their report in the near future. J. Kwan: Well, isn't that interesting? The minister says that they are eliminat ing…. They've made a deci- sion to eliminate upfront gr ants for students in the post-secondary education sector because she says that virtually no other jurisdiction is doing that. [1520] I wonder if the minister consulted with students to see what they think abou t grants.

Would upfront grants be better than remissi on grants, as an example, or completion grants, as an example — and what stu- dents had to say before the minister cut the upfront grants, $80 million worth of grants to students? Hon. S. Bond: As I've said a number of times, mak- ing a decision like this is based on a complex set of circumstances that we're trying to balance. The biggest issue I hear about is access. Students want to get a seat in post-secondary education. Another significant con- cern is the grade point aver age.

Actually, we believe that if you work hard in British Columbia and get a B, you should get a seat in a post-secondary institution. That's the goal we're working towards. Yes, it took a complex balancing of looking at those circumstances and looking at the issues related to the grant program. I think the most important part from our perspective is that we continue to meet the needs of those students most in need. I want to say that institutions also are partners with us in this.

There are instit utions in this province — and I have statements from three of them — that have poli- cies where students, if they qualify to get into the insti- tution academically — the University of British Co- lumbia is a perfect example — will not be turned away because of financial need. We're balancing a complex set of demands, but the biggest concern we have is getting students into seats and making sure that by the year 2009-10, we add 25,000 more seats to the system to make sure that

10692 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 young people like the ones sitting in the gallery today get a chance to get into an institution. That's important. J. Kwan: Yes, I don't deny that making seats avail- able for students — like today, who are visiting the gallery — so they have access to them would be impor- tant. Absolutely. Spaces are absolutely critical. What this government is doing is off-loading an- other form of access in order to gain capacity access by way of spaces.

Yes, capacity is important, but the gov- ernment is jeopardizing access for low-income students by taking grants away. Th ere are students who would not be able to access post-secondary education. Why? Because tuition fees simply are out of reach for them. They're simply out of reach and not a consideration for them to even contemplate going into post-secondary education, because they cannot afford it. Access needs to be looked at from different perspectives. It is about providing access in a variety of senses. One is about availability of space. The second is about affordability.

Both of those aspects are equally important. You do not, as this government has done, choose one over the other. What this government has done with this budget is off-load affordability access — for- gone affordability access — because the government took money away from grants to put into the creation of spaces. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. It kind of reminds me, as I look at the young chil- dren around the Legislature today, of what this gov- ernment has done in the education sector.

They took $3 million away from students in Vancouver for the Community LINK program — which supports hot lunch programs and counselling, the involvement of parents and support staff in the school system — to give to other students in other communities. The gov- ernment says there's a need in these other communi- ties. I don't dispute that there's a need in other com- munities, but you do not take from one needy commu- nity to give to another.

If they really valued education and equal access and quality education for all, what the government would have tried to do is provide and support those programs where there is a need. [1525] Here we have, in the advanced education sector, the government taking exactly the same approach as they have done in the education K-to-12 sector — rob Peter to pay Paul. Then they say that they needed to do it be- cause we needed to create space, and in the process, to heck with students who actu ally need grants and who actually need to address the issue of affordability.

The minister says she has a variety of programs that they're looking into. She has not yet received a report on this. The minister says across the province…. They've looked at Alberta and even Nunavut, she said. Has she looked at Ontario? Hon. S. Bond: In a word, yes. I haven't; my staff has. I want to go back to a fundamental disagreement we're going to — I'm assuming — continue to have over the next number of months. You simply can't choose one or the other. Putti ng students and allowing them the opportunity to get into a post-secondary insti- tution is a complex issue.

Access is incredibly impor- tant, and making sure that low-income students that come from low-income families find spaces is abso- lutely critical. You have to put together a strategy. We have a strategy in place to add 25,000 seats to the post- secondary education system. How did we do that? We looked around the province and said: "Where are the areas where the need is grow ing the fastest? Let's put seats there." You know what? If we can allow students a seat closer to where they live, something happens as a result of that. They save money.

As a matter of fact, studies would show us that on average, you can save $6,000 a year as a student if you are able to get a seat closer to where you live. So it is not as simple as choos- ing one over the other. I'm not prepared to go and say to students: "We choose this path." No, we're going to look at a strategy; we're going to consider all of the options that we can find. We have put together a strategic investment plan to add seats that are unprecedented in this province in more than decades.

So, in fact, we're working on ex- actly the concerns the member opposite has, but it is not as simple as choosing one or the other. J. Kwan: That's precisely my point. It shouldn't be chosen one over the other, and that's exactly what the government has done. The government chose to forgo grants for students. Therefore, in this budget year they eliminated the grants progra m for students. Then they took that money and put it elsewhere in the post- secondary education system. Most notably, the minis- ter claims that they put it into decreasing tuition fee increases and to space capacity building.

The government made a choice when they tabled the budget to eliminate the grants program. My point is that the government shouldn't choose one form of access over another, for affordability access is equally important as access in spaces for students. That's ex- actly my point, and that's exactly what the minister doesn't get. If the minister does understand that you shouldn't choose one form of access over the other, then the government would not have cancelled the grants program for students before they had a re- placement program in place. The government made a decision.

Just like when the government came to office, they made a decision before they even looked at the books that they would give tax cuts. In fact, the la rgest tax cuts were to big corporations and the highest-income earners of British Columbia — some $2 billion worth of tax cuts. [1530] The government made a decision. Yes, being gov- ernment is about priorities, and it is about making choices. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that you didn't make a choice when in fact you made a choice.

You can't say that you value students in terms of access on the issue around affordability when you actually just cut programs and grant programs to sup- port students.

THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10693 The minister says she has looked at the Ontario model. Now, there are differences. Based on the infor- mation that the minister has received to date on these different models, there are different kinds of remission programs. For example, the federal loan remission model, the federal program, is based on a primary in- come table which is set, in my view, at absurd levels. For example, if you have a $30,000 loan and you make, let's say, about $35,000 a year…. On that basis, under the federal government program, you don't qualify for loan remission.

You maybe qualify for some interest relief and the like, but you don't qualify for the loan remission program. You pretty well have to be destitute to qualify. The federal program really is in name only. It doesn't really work for students. When the federal gov- ernment announced their program, they promised to help some 12,000 students. It turns out only about 1,000 students were able to access that program. So the pro- gram is not effective. Now, the reason why I want to bring this up is that I want the minister to know that some remission pro- grams don't work.

Would the minister agree, in that instance, that the federal loan remission program is one that actually doesn't work for students? It certainly doesn't work very well for students. Hon. S. Bond: F i r s t o f a l l , I w a n t t o j u s t m a k e t h e point that — and I'm going to continue to clarify the language — we are not forgoing a grant program. We are redesigning the grant program. The member oppo- site can continue to call it forgoing; that's not accurate. We are re-creating and redesigning, and part of the design….

The member opposite has also been a minister, and you don't snap your fingers and overnight have a new loan program. We're actually doing due diligence. I appreciate the member opposite's comment about that particular loan program. I don't know the details of it. My staff is working, and they have a stack of models about that high. We are going to look through them. I'm sure there are some that are successful, some that would better meet the culture that we have in Brit- ish Columbia. But in fact, it takes time. We want to get it right. That work is being done as we speak.

Also, I want to just remind the member opposite that this ministry's budget has been protected for the entire term of this government. In fact, we have re- ceived $105 million that will be added over the next three years, and we actually increased funding $15 million to institutional operating grants in 2004 and 2005. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] J. Kwan: In the 2002 and 2003 budget years, the government actually froze the post-secondary educa- tion budget. In fact, in the mi dst of all of that, with in- creased pressures once again, institutions….

That's why the institutions have to increase tuition fees at a rate that is unbelievable — unmatched by any other province in terms of increased tuition fee rates. The minister says that they're doing their due dili- gence and that they're only converting this program. Well, maybe it is a different approach from different governments and a different approach for different ministers. [1535] In my instance as a former minister, if I valued a pro- gram, I wanted to see the benefits of a particular program continue.

If I thought there might be another way of de- livering the program that would actually yield better benefits for, in this instance, students — let's just use that as an example — I would have gone to do the work to see how you could bring forward a program that would have benefited students more than the existing one and would have had that ready to go before the old program was converted away — conversion, as the minister calls it. In reality, the grant program is gone. It doesn't exist in this budget year. Students can't get access to grant programs because there is no such program.

The minis- ter says: "Well, maybe at the end of the school year they might have something." Well, that's not going to help the students. It's not going to help the students who need that program now. How is that helpful? Notwithstanding that, the government doesn't know how much money they have set aside for the grant pro- gram, and they don't know when they will necessarily bring this program in place. The minister says she doesn't know about the federal program, doesn't have very much information on it.

Well, according to students who I've been in contact with, they tell me the federal program doesn't work because the threshold for access to the loan program is simply impossible, generally, or very difficult to meet. You pretty well have to be desti- tute in order to access that program. Therefore, even though the federal government goes around claiming that it wants to target 12,000 students, only about 1,000 students actually qualified for the program. How many students is this minister trying to target with this new loan remission or completion grant pro- gram? Hon. S. Bond: Again, there will be no gap.

Students this year got the grant. We are continuing to pay grants this year. We will have another grant program in place by the next school year. So that means we didn't dis- continue. We are redesigning, and that will continue. In terms of the number of students, we don't have a specific number because as we look at the model, we have one principle: to support those students most in need. I haven't targeted a number of students. Depending upon whether you do completion grants, whether you…. There is a variety of models, as I have explained.

The model will change in terms of the number of students, but the most important principle is that we will support those students most in need. J. Kwan: How many people now have access to the grant program that is being converted away? Hon. S. Bond: Last year 23,378 students qualified for the B.C. grant program. Of those, 15,989 were at-

10694 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 tending a public post-secondary institution. But ac- cording to our head count numbers, both full- and part-time, you should know that there were 300,000 students in the public post-secondary system last year. Of those, 117,000 would have been full-time students, so in effect, discontinuing the student grant program will affect 5 percent of the total student population attending public institutions. [1540] J. Kwan: Yes, it impacted 23,378 students who ac- cess the grant program. That's how many people would be impacted.

The grant program that was in place — how much was the average grant? Hon. S. Bond: We will get that number for the member opposite as quickly as we can. It's here in this large stack of papers, so we're working to find the exact number. I don't want to have to come back and clarify once again. J. Kwan: Okay. While the minister looks for the answer, maybe she can also find the information — aside from the average — on what the maximum is and what the minimum is. Maybe she has that information already. Hon. S. Bond: The average grant was $3,200.

We will continue to work to find the minimum and maxi- mum, but that will hopefully move us forward — $3,200. J. Kwan: Is it anticipated that this new program that would replace the old program — or the old pro- gram that's been converted away — will, in the mini- mum, provide the same kind of support to the students that qualified for the old program? Hon. S. Bond: Not necessarily. It depends, again, on the model. It also looks at the package of benefits we're providing to students, which includes institu- tions closer to home, more seat availability.

We're look- ing at a total plan as we look at how to provide oppor- tunities for students, so no, it's not necessarily the same average. J. Kwan: Does the minister expect that the average will be higher or lower? Hon. S. Bond: It could be either. J. Kwan: Does the minister expect there will be more students who could access this grant, or fewer? Hon. S. Bond: Once again, we haven't determined that. As we look at models, we can look at completion grants. We can look at a number of models that ad- dress student needs.

As I said earlier, the main prin- ciple we will apply is looking at those students most in need. [1545] J. Kwan: Just by way of comparison, the Okanagan University College's tuition jumped from $1,170 to $1,650 in the year 2003 — a 65 percent increase in 2002. If we just use that as an example in terms of tuition fees that students are faced with, a $3,200 grant provides for less than three years of tuition for a student. If you ac- tually look at programming — degree-granting, as one example — you're usually looking at a four-year pro- gram, so the $3,200 is anything but excessive.

Other tuition fees are actually higher, depending on what university or what institution you take it from, and there's a bit of a range. Anyway, just using that as a benchmark, if you will, as a base for measurement, if the government says it will somehow enhance the programs for students in terms of a grant program with a loan remission pro- gram or a completion-grant program, then let's use the numbers of the existing program as a benchmark to see whether or not whatever this new program is that the minister comes out with really is better at the end of the day. We'll use that as a base for measurement.

We'll use that as a base to measure the targets in terms of how many students and how much support students would be able to access. I would say that the stats that the minister had provided should be used as a minimum baseline for measurement. I was hoping, of course, that the minister would confirm that the federal program, which really has not been very helpful for students, is one that the govern- ment would not adopt as a model. Now, the minister says she doesn't know very much about the federal program.

But is it safe to say that for such programs, with a history where with a target of 12,000 students, only 1,000 students, approximately, reached and were able to access the program…? Is it safe to say that such a program has not been successful in supporting stu- dents? Hon. S. Bond: I have said countless times that I'm going to look at the models that are available. I'm going to look at what's best for students in the province. Most particularly, in the grant program that we redesign, we will look at those students most in need.

I also need to go back, and perhaps the member opposite would like to adjust her chart in terms of Okanagan University College. As of a few months ago we made an incredible announcement about UBC, the Okanagan and Okanagan Co llege. We're creating two institutions there so we can increase access for stu- dents. Because we did that, in fact, Okanagan College, which will look at university transfer programs and maintain and enhance regional programming, is actu- ally reducing its college-level tuition fees by $1,000 for every full-time student.

That's what I'm talking about when you balance needs and put together a strategic plan. We're not simply going to rely on a grant program to help students. We're going to do a good job of that too, but by adding new seat s and creating two institu-

THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10695 tions, students in the inte rior of the province, in college-level courses, will receive a reduction in their tuition fees of $1,000. J. Kwan: I'll get into the tuition fee issue, as I said in the estimates. The minister n eed not worry about it. I'll actually get into the Okanagan University College uni- versity issue as well, so the minister need not worry about it. [1550] It is interesting to note th e minister's answers so far, though, on the federal government program.

Even though the minister may not have all of the details around it, based on the information she has received to date, the minister can double-check this to make sure the information is correct. If a target of 12,000 students is to be targeted in terms of providing grant programs, remission programs, to students under the federal pro- gram and only approximately 1,000 access them, I think it's safe to say that the program is not successful. And the government won't even commit to that. I actually start to worry about what the government is planning in terms of this new program.

Maybe they're going to pull a federal Liberal approach to remission programs — put forward a program and then set the threshold in such a way th at pretty well nobody can qualify for it, so it is underutilized and the government can say: "Great. We have a program in place, but there is no need for it." Maybe that will be the line. I will reserve my judgment until I see the provincial government's new program and see what that looks like, although so far the answers I have canvassed from the minister have not been comforting, to say the very least. I have a last question for the minister in this area.

The provincial grant program that the minister is in the process of converting and phasing out — were there any unspent dollars within that grant program? And if so, how much? Hon. S. Bond: It is a demand-driven program. The dollars were not left on the table. As a matter of fact, at the end of the fiscal year we had $1.6 million left in the entire ministry after we did the work we did. I want to just answer one of the questions so we can take this one off the list. The minimum grant is $100, and the maximum grant is $5,720. J.

Kwan: Sorry, did the minister say there were no dollars left in the provincial grant budget at the end of the fiscal year? Hon. S. Bond: It is demand-driven. We spent what we forecast, and dollars that are available after that are redistributed to the institutions. It is forecast, it is demand-driven, and the rest is sent to institutions or other purposes. J. Kwan: Demand-driven and forecasted in terms of the amount. What was the forecast? Hon. S. Bond: The forecast was $75 million. J. Kwan: So $75 million in grants was provided to support students. Was the full forecasted amount spent? Hon. S.

Bond: There was $75 million spent on B.C. grants, and the member needs to be aware that those are unaudited numbers. [1555] J. Kwan: How many applications were turned away, if any? Hon. S. Bond: No one actually applies for a grant. They apply for student fina ncial assistance, and typi- cally they get a combination of grant and loan. J. Kwan: How many of them were turned away? Hon. S. Bond: No one who met the criteria was turned down. In fact, we had 95,000 applications, and we had 77,000 students that actually were served in the province. I'm sorry.

I want to make sure we get the terminology correct — 77,163 applications that met the criteria. J. Kwan: That's for the last fiscal year. Earlier the minister gave a figure of 23,378 people that actually got the grant. Now it's 77,163? I'm sorry. I'm confused about those numbers. Hon. S. Bond: Students don't apply for grants; they apply for student financial assistance. They typically get a combination of loan and grant. The number of students that met the criteria for a grant was 23,000. The total package of students who got assistance was the larger number. J.

Kwan: For the purposes of this discussion, we're talking about the grants. The number of people who actually got the grants is 23,378. The 77,163 included students who actually got a loan. That's a different ket- tle of fish in terms of loans versus grants. The minister says that nobody who qualified for the provincial grant was turned away. What is the qualification? Hon. S. Bond: In terms of the crit eria…. First of all, I just want to go back over this territory one more time, because the member opposite sounded puzzled. Maybe it was my explanation. No one applies for a grant.

They don't say: "I need a grant." What they say is: "I need some help with student financial assistance." The good news is that the ministry has done a fan- tastic job of modernizing how students apply. I do want to mention this, because I want to give my staff a plug. They've done a fabulous job. You can actually apply on line now. It's got an incredibly quick turn- around period, so students aren't waiting. They actu- ally just do all of their information on line. In terms of criteria, they're based on the assessed need of students. That incl udes a number of things.

The easiest way to check that is to go to the website

10696 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 and have a look at that. It includes income; it includes assets. There is a basic principle in student financial assistance, not just in British Columbia but globally, that student financial assistance does not replace family support. That is part of the assumption that is made when an assessment is done, so family income is also part of the consideration. [1600] Student applications look at a number of factors, but again they apply for student financial assistance as a package.

I think we also have to add the context that this isn't the only way students get assistance. Institutions around this province do an extraordinary job of pro- viding dollars from institutions to supplement student incomes through bursaries in a number of areas. Gov- ernment assistance is one piece of the package. J. Kwan: Yes, bursaries are also available, but usually they're very small in amount. They are a few hundred dollars — $500 and such. The dollar amount is very lit- tle, although it does help — make no mistake about that — in terms of a continuum of support.

Student financial assistance, for all intents and purposes, is grant pro- grams for students. I should also say that it is true…. In fact, all the students I know who got the grant program also got a loan program. The grant program in and of itself is not sufficient to pay for all the expenses associ- ated with the education costs and living costs as well. So yes, it has therefore always been a combination, and that certainly was the case when I was going to university. Things haven't changed that much, with the exception that tuition fees are a lot higher than what they used to be when I was in school.

I don't know whether or not the grant program, in terms of the criteria for qualification, has changed since my time. Fair enough. I will grab that information from the website. Then we'll use that by way of a benchmark to measure against this new program to see what the government is doing and whether or not the govern- ment is actually enhancing the program or going in the other direction. Am I right to assume that of the $75,000 the minis- ter said is available for grant programs…? Does that include the loan portion as well, or is it just the grant portion or student assistance portion? Hon. S.

Bond: I'm assuming the member opposite means $75 million. If that's the number, then that num- ber is grant dollars. J. Kwan: Yes, my apologies. I mean $75 million. I think it is the lack of sleep I've suffered. It's a good thing I haven't seen stars yet — not just yet. I do mean $75 million. So that's the grant portion. Now, could the minister explain to me…? In the reference in the throne speech, the Minister of Finance actually talked about an $80-million-a-year grant pro- gram, not $75 million. Where does the discrepancy come from? Maybe there's another $5 million some- where else in some other program. Hon.

S. Bond: We're still waiting for audited num- bers. The fact of the matter is that that was a February number. We are more accurate now than we were at that point in time in terms of that number. The number is $75 million. [1605] J. Kwan: The Minister of Finance's number is wrong then — the $80 million. Okay. How much is the loan portion of the program? Hon. S. Bond: I want to make sure we clarify. We have said all along that we forecast numbers in student financial assistance, both gr ant and loan side. It is demand-driven. There are interest issues.

So the Minis- ter of Finance number was a conservative forecast. We are months past that now. We are able to look at fiscal year-end and give you the $75 million number. I want to make sure that we're aware of this. The forecast that we have for 2003-04 numbers in terms of lending is $139 million. J. Kwan: Then the $139 million for the loan pro- gram…. With 75,000 students accessing a combination of loan and financial assistance and 23,000 accessing financial assistance, is it fair to say that about 52,000 students qualify for the loan program? I think I put that wrong.

I think I heard the minister say that 75,000 students qualify for both the loan and financial assistance programs, approximately 23,000 qualify for the financial assistance program, and all of them also qualify for the loan program at the same time. So then about 53,000 on ly qualified for the loan program. In addition to that, 23,000 qualified for the loan and financial assistan ce. Therefore, those who access the loan program — one could say it's a total of 75,000. Am I following the numbers correctly? I think that's the gist of what the minister said. [1610] Hon. S. Bond: The simple way to do this….

It is complicated; the member opposite has that right. Okay. Nobody who got a grant didn't also get a loan. You're absolutely correct. The 23,000-p lus, whatever they are, got a grant and a loan. The balance, however, would have gotten loans, but there are also other…. Because it's integrated with the Canada Millennium Scholarship and other pots of money, it's not as simple as saying: take that number, subtract the 23,000 and make a set of assumptions. We don't have the complicated data pieces here that can say this many just got a loan, and this many….

The one thing that we can give you definitively is that no one who got a grant also did not get a loan. The balance of them got loans and no grants, but there are some other pots of opportunities for them. It's very complicated. We don't have that data with us. J. Kwan: The $139 million loan — are those the provincial loan dollars? Does that include federal loan dollars?

THURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10697 Hon. S. Bond: It is. It's B.C. student dollars. J. Kwan: The millennium grant from the federal government side, which I do believe the minister, the provincial government administers…. Could the minis- ter give me the details on that millennium grant pro- gram funded by the federal government? How much is it? How many dollars are going into it? How many students got access to it — qualification for students for the program — and how much, in terms of low and maximum dollars and the average, was granted to stu- dents? Hon. S.

Bond: The dollars attached to the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation are $37 million. It's a non-repayable bursary. They are offered inde- pendently of B.C. grants. One of the key things, when we talk about one of the things we're doing in rede- signing the grant program, is that we're working very closely with the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation. We want to make sure that the program we put in place is complementary to the program that exists. It's $37 million. It is a non-repayable bursary called the Canada Millennium Scholarship Founda- tion. J.

Kwan: How many students accessed that money? [1615] Hon. S. Bond: Ag ain, I want to be carefu l t hat we note this. It is a projection. The number is 12,333 that we're projecting. We need to remember that the com- plexity of it is this. Some students will get B.C. student grant plus the Canada Mill ennium Scholarship. Some will get just this. Some will get a combination of both. Again, it's based on needs assessment. You can't simply say it's 23,000 plus 12,000, because some students may actually get both grants. J.

Kwan: The 75,000 student number, though — does that include all three cate gories then, or is it just the two categories? Hon. S. Bond: The 23,000 are the ones that we can say get a B.C. grant. Some of those will, in addition to that, get the Canada Millennium Scholarship, but the base number…. Interjection. The Chair: Member, through the Chair, please. J. Kwan: Sorry, Mr. Chair. The minister said the 23,000 got the provincial grant financial assistance for sure. I don't know if I heard the minister say that some of those 23,000 also got the millennium grant. Did I hear the minister say that?

Then, with the rest of the 75,000 who got the loan programs…. I shouldn't say 75,000; 53,000 or so got the loan programs. Did any of the students who got the loan programs also get the millennium grant? Hon. S. Bond: Yes, and that's the complexity when you start trying to figure how out many of them just got loans because, actually, some of them can get a loan plus a Canada Millennium Scholarship. Or they can get a loan plus a B.C. student…. Or they can get a loan plus both, or they can just get both grants. It's very complex.

From my perspective, it's a good thing no matter how complex it is, because it's just ad- ditional dollars to provide help to students in the prov- ince. J. Kwan: The grand total number of 75,000 — that includes all three programs. Hon. S. Bond: Again, as students apply for student financial assistance, the total number of successful ap- plications — a n d w e w a n t t o m a k e s u r e w e g e t t h e terminology correct — was the 77,000 that we gave you. J. Kwan: The Millennium Scholarship — what was the maximum/minimum? Hon. S. Bond: The minimum is $1,500; $4,500 is the maximum. J. Kwan: Thank you very much.

I should have fin- ished my sentence, but the minister knew what I meant when I said: what is the minimum/maximum? I meant dollars that students got. The qualification for the Millennium Scholarship grant — could the minister please provide me with that information? There were some issues I received in my constituency from people who weren't qualified. I'm sorry; I actually don't have that information with me. If the minister provides me with the information about the qualification, I'd like to ask the minister some ques- tions around that. Hon. S.

Bond: Canadian Mille nnium Scholarship funding is based on the need of students enrolled in undergraduate programs who have assessed financial needs of more than $125 per week of study. The first thing is that per week, they have more than that need. They have successfully completed 60 percent or more of a course load in the previous semester or over an eight-month period in the past ten years and have completed at least eight months or 34 weeks of post- secondary study. That's hard to write down, so we'll be happy to send that over to you so you have…. Sorry — to the member. [1620] J.

Kwan: Who set the criteria for this grant pro- gram? Hon. S. Bond: It's determined in cooperation be- tween the B.C. government and the Canada Millen- nium Foundation. They actually work to tailor the pro- grams to have the two be as complementary as possi-

10698 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T HURSDAY, APRIL 29, 2004 ble. They work together to try to design a program that helps our two programs be integrated. J. Kwan: The millennium scholarship program — is the minister expecting that it will continue next year? Hon. S. Bond: The answer to that question is yes. In fact, as part of the work that we're doing in the due diligence in re-creating our grant program, we've met with Norman Riddell, who is the executive director of the Canada Millennium Foundation. We are hopeful, actually. We think this would be great progress, to look at the possibility of a jointly funded single program. That would be much less

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	h0429pm-08
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	h0429pm 08
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5d45e29cc3205e6cf3e9d86f0aaaa879414e99b6

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