LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Monday, 2 March, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPL V SUPPL V - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, J. Wally McKenzie (Robl in): Are we ready to pr oce ed? (Agreed) Resolution 89, 2.(g)

(1) Salaries, $171 ,200.00. The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to explor e with the Mini ster the qu estion of manda tory retirement and ask him whether he has developed a policy on the supr emacy as between The Human Rights Act and The Civil Service Act. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Mi nister. HON. KEN MacMA STER (Thompson ): Mr. Chairman, I explained previously, and I'll go through it once more.

We are right in the midst now - in fact , letters are out to a large numb er of organizations in Manitoba, both labour-oriented and management-oriented - asking for their opinions, their justification for whatever position they may take on the age 65 manda tory question. I think it is a pretty major situation facing society as a whole and I intend to seek opinions, justifications, clarifications, and what have you, from as many organizations that I can gather it from in the Province of Manitoba. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I can understand the reluctance of the Min ister to arrive at a policy when he wants to consult with other groups on what is really, I agree with him, a major issue. But currently we have The Human Rights Act and we have The Civil Service Act and I believe a court has already ruled - I am under the im pression the Mi niter will correct me, I am sure - that a court has alr eady said that The Civil Service Act has supremacy over The Human Rights Act. He confirms that I am right.

Tha t being the case, and as suming that the Mi nister gives this subject the amount of study which he will determine it needs, it may take another year - it could take two years - to get that kind of a study. Meanwhile, is the Government going to, in this interim period, let it rest that The Civil Service Act is supreme over The Huma n Rights Act

whereas in other areas of emplo yment, the converse appears to be true? I am rea lly not yet deb ating the principl e of manda tory retirement, I want to discuss the aspect of what appears to me to be a contradictory position based on the fact that there is legislation in place in connection with civil servants which doesn't apply to others. So I am asking the Mi nister what temporary approach he is developing, or the government is developing, until it arrives at a position on the overall question of mandatory retirement. MR. MacMASTER: Mr . Chairman, I think I have gathered, from the Member for St.

Johns, that it is a very immense problem that we are facing and things will, in my opinion, stay as is until we have a good cross-section of opinion from various interested groups in the Province of Manitoba. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, that means to me that civil servants who are at the retirement age now or in the next few months, will be placed in quite a di fferent position than appears to be the case of those people whose employment is not determined by legislation, and that seems to me to be very unfair.

What I am suggesting is that there ought to be one approach of a temporary nature until a policy is developed by this current government or by the suc ceed ing government or by the Federal Government, or whatever, but until that is done, as I understand it, civil servants who reach retirement age are placed in quite a different position from other employed groups. I am suggesting that it is unfair and I want to know if the Min ister thinks that it is fair to continue that for a year or two, whatever time it takes to develop a policy. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, there have been instances where people have reached the age of 65 within the Civil Service and their term has been mutually agreed upon to be extended. That situation, plus the present situation that is in plac e in Manitoba, is the one that I am prepared to go with until we have resolved this situation to the best of our ability. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I think that the Mini ster is begging the question, and even unfairly. What he is saying is that there is precedence for cases where people in the Civil Service reach retirement age and by mutual agreement, their term was extended.

That really puts the power in the hands of the emplo yer and not in the hands of the emp loyee, and that makes it even more unfair to consider that where the employer wants to keep an employee, civil servant, then that civil servant gets tremendous preference over the neighbouring civil servant who is not given that opportunity. it seems to me that the suggestion he is making is unfair. Furthermore, as I understand it, when there have been extensions beyond retir ement age, those extensions converted the Civil Service status into a contract and the pension was payable immediately on the date of retirement.

If I am wrong about the fact, I wish to be corrected on it. MR. MacMASTER: I think the member is basically correct. MR. CHERNIACK: Then, in effect, the point made by the Min ister is not quite correct in that it is a new hiring; there is no prohibition on a retiring person from getting another job.

In effect, what happens in this case, is that a civil servant reaches retirement age, retires, starts getting a pension, and then the government hires him on a contract, so that the government could do that, hiring a person who is retired from any other field of endeavour, ind ustry or commerce, and it is the same situation. 1211

Monday, 2 March, 1981 But what I am saying, the unfair consideration as I see it, is that civil servants are treated differently by the government because there is legislation to give the. employer that kind of power. I suggest that as long as we have The Human Rights Legislation on the Statute Book, that the government should see to it that there's the same kind of treatment given to people who come under The Civil Service Act as who come under any other form of emplo yer-employee relationship. (Interjection)- I understand.

I stated an opinion, the Min ister doesn't want to enter into debate on that opinion, obviously, that's why he remained silent, which means that he is not prepared to dis cuss the pros and cons but says what is shall continue to be until he, or he and his colleagues are ready to make a policy decision. The fact that I say it's unfair is just my opinion and one that he may or may not share. He hasn't dis agreed with me, which means that he is not prepared to state an opinion on whether or not it's fair, and that's his prerogative.

Well, then, I would like to know whether he is prepared to tell us just what are the problems from the standpoint of the emplo yer, which he is in this case, in the Civil Service case, in sofar as this problem of pensions?

I understand the problem that is raised by other members of the bargaining unit, or in the case of the civil servants of the emplo yee group, where they say, "Well, continuing a person's occupation or employment beyond retirement age imp edes my progress and therefore I cannot succeed to senior jobs because the incumbent has not moved out." I understand that and I know the conflict which takes pla ce in the minds of some people in the organ ized labour field, some who want to see movement out and others who want the right to stay in.

I would like the Mi nister to explain, what is the problem as far as the calculation Cif pension is concerned, or the actuarial problem which he has suggested is a problem in the speech he made, which I referred to on a previous occasion when I dis cussed this? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, would the Min ister ... MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mem bers of the Commit tee, I only recognize those who raise their hands, if you'l l allo w me that pr ivi lege. The Ho nourable Me mber for Churchill has alr eady indica ted he wants to speak. MR.

JAY COWAN: On a point of order, 1 assumed that I would be put on the list after the Member for St. Johns had completed his question. What I had indi cated was that I wanted to be next on the list. UnfortuliiHely, even if that were the case, I am going to have to leave for a meeting and therefore would have to relinqui sh the floor at any rate to the Member for St. Johns. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: As your Chairman, I only have one prerogative; if someone raises his finger, then I recognize him. MR. tOINAN: My ap olog ies for any misunderstanding . . . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR.

CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had the impr essi on, or tiie expe ctation or hope, anticipation, that the Mini ster, who is now discussing something, was going to deal with the question I asked relating to the actuarial problem, and if he is, I wonder if you will give him the opportunity to be recognized. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (2)(g) - pass - the Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Min ister a dir ect question. Is he planning to respond to my enquiry about the actuarial problems that he has posed? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mini ster. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, what I do not intend to do is get into a debate on the particular issue. That's the first point. There are a large number of factors which must be taken into consideration when we are talking about age 65. You have a lot of agreements in place; whether they are legal, ethical, or whatever, there are a good number of agreements that are in place that make reference to age 65. You have the CPP, which hooks in at age 65; you have the Old Age Security which comes into being at age 65; there are a good number of private pension plans that come into effect at age 65.

To reiterate what I said before, there are a wide variety of opinions out there within the Province of Manitoba, and I sus pect across our coun try, rela tin g to mand atory retirement at age 65 or the reverse. I have said, and I repeat once more, that I intend, and a gdod number of letters have gone - I intend to send out more - seeking opinions, thoughts and justifica ti ons for various major organizations' vieWpoints on this issue in the Province of Manitoba.

I don't care whether anybody claims that that is stretching democracy too far and I don't particularly concern myself whether members of the Opposition, or of my owh party, or anybody else, wants to say that I am waffling on it. I am not ashamed of the fact that I am seeking public opinion on this issue; I am not ashamed of the fact that I do not have a position at this particular moment, and that's where the case rests. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable the Mi nister is being very defensive about a position, which I have not attacked.

I have recognized that he is not prepared to discuss the major issue tiecause he is taking couns el wh erever he thinks it's necessary, and I have not criticized his approach to the democratic process or his desire to consult with others. I suggest that he is being overly sensitive because 1 asked him a specific question unrelated to the major issue, and that was an attempt to obtain from him clarification of his statement suggesting that there is a pension problem involved, or an actuarial problem, and I wanted to know just what is that kind of a problem? I am not asking him to state an opinion on the overall.

I can understand very well that at age 65, the CPP comes into place, whether a 1212

Monday, 2 March, 1981 person is employed, not employed, whether the person conti nues emp loyment with the same emp loyer, acq uir es another emp loyer, that takes place, so that whether or not it is there, is not a factor on the question of the principle of mandatory retirement. What I do want the Mi nister to tell us is, in view of the fact that he is res ponsible for this policy development, to tell us what is the problem he is referring to, what is the nature of the problem relating to the pension? I am not asking for an opinion. I want to know what is the problem? MR. MacMASTER: I don't know, Mr.

Chairman, whether I was being defensive or offensive; there is sometimes a di fference and I apologize for neither one, I am just being myself. I have been advised that there are some difficulties and I don't know the technicalities of them because I am not an actuary in any way, shape or form, but I have been ma de aware that there are some difficulties when people have geared a particular age, when they are calcu lating it at 65.

There is a possibility that they now may be asked to consider 67, 68, 70, 75, and I guess really what the problem is that the system in our country has been geared, rightly or wrongly, to age 65. Federal programs, Provincial programs, assistance to what we call senior citizens, after 65, certain things will happen; yyu get this and you get that and you don't get this and you're deprived of that, but you're entitled to other things.

So I think the memb er would find that mathematically there may be some chal lenges - di fficulties, challenges - whichever word you want to use, associated with not having a fixed age. And I'm not saying whether that's imp ossible; I doubt if it is. Th ere are very few things that are really im possible, but I think we'll find that it's going to, from what little information I'v e had, that is it going to create some difficulties. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I want to suggest to the Mini ster, that there are two di fferent matters that are bei ng rais ed. One is the right of an emp loyee to work beyond the retirement age, which is 65 as he declares it; the other is whether or not he starts receiving the pension at age 65. Now I don't see any problem in an actuarial sense, if that emplo yee starts to get his pension on attaining the age 65, but continues to work.

And I don't see that that has an actuarial problem, that that is an actuarial problem in sofar as whether or not he continues to work, because there are occasions in various agreements, where a person may not get his pension if he tries to retire before 65, even though he may have put in a satisfactory number of years. And what I'm talking about here is mandator y retir emen t, not voluntar y, and on the basis of mandatory retirement, I can see no problem, if the pension situation is set aside and not changed in any way.

In other words, a person is entitled to a pension on reaching age 65, but then the principle under the Human Rights Legislation of whether or not he has the right to continue to work if he or she has the ability to continue to perform, lies in place. So that I'm suggesting to the Min ister that it's not a valid problem to pose as to whether or not there's an actuarial reca pitula tion or recal culation that's required, and that the true problem is whether or not a person employed, who is capable of continuing to work, shall be forced to quit bE!cause of that magic number 65.

And that's why I was asking the Min ister if he sees that as a problem and he tells us now that he is told that there's a problem, but I'm assuming that there's nothing before him or nothing that he can put before us, so that we could help discuss this matter at a stage before a decision is made, so we can try to ourselves, arrive at an opinion or help persuade others to do so. So again, I'm asking the Mini ster if I'm wrong in suggesting that the pension could lie in place and become available at age 65, without regard to whether or not the employee has a right to continue emplo yment beyond that age.

Is that not correct? MR. MacMASTER: Well, the employee can in fact, continue to work and draw his pension if he so chooses. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Ch airman, of course, the point I was making is mand atory. He may have the opportunity to do so, but surely the way it is now, especially under The Civil Service Act, he can also be forced to quit work, arbitrarily and without having to prove cause.

And my suggestion is, that if the policy is arrived at, that the Human Rights legislation is valid, proper, and should give the employee the right to continue work, the right to continue, to demand to continue work, if he proves himself capable, that right can be given to him without affecting the pension calculation if he also commences to take his pension at that time. I am wondering if the Mi nister understands that when he said he can continue to work, whether he agrees with me that he can providing his employer permits him to at thi s stage, and that is the di fference. it's a one-sided uni lateral decision.

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Member for lnkster . . . The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, may I just cede the floor to the Member for lnkster by expressing my disappointment that the Mi nister has not responded to my dir ect question on that. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr . Chairman, I wa sn't int ending to in terrupt the qu estioning, but the Member for St. Johns has indi cated that he is having a problem and really can't pursue it if the Mini ster won't respond.

I wish to make some observations on this subject and I regret that it comes under the Pensions rather than under the di scussion that took place generally, but the fact is that it could be with relevance di scussed under Pensions and therefore I would like to do so. Wha t I consider, Mr. Chairman, to be most fortunate is that we are able to di scuss this matter 1213

Monday, 2 March, 1981 as legisiators and having the opportunity of doing something about it. My own particular opinion will come forward fairly soon, but what we are doing has some relationship, Mr. Chairman, and I know that some will criticize me that I say everything has relationship to an entrenched Bill of Rig hts, but nevertheless just to show you how far an entrenched Bill of Rights can effect legisl ators, this is one of the areas, which, Mr.

Chairman, if the Human Rights Commi ttee were entrenched, and required some complic ated amending formula, we in this Legislature could not really be discussing it and therefore I am suggesting that I am very happy that we are able to discuss it, because we have a Human Rights Act which says that there shall be no discrimination on the basis of age. I can tell you, Mr.

Chairman, that I don't think many, and I can't really be dogmatic about it because some may have raised the question, I don't think that many of us, and that includes all of us when you pass this legislation, really thought that it would affect an employer and an emplo yee coming to an arrangement between themselves that there will be retirement at age 65; that, when we di cussed that "right," we did not realize that it could come in conflict with another "right" the right to freedom of contract and to free collective bargai ning. That's not terrible because nobody foresees everything.

What would be terrible is if we enacted it with no power of changing it; didn't realize it and then found that it had an entirely di fferent conclusion and we were powerless because of an abdication of legisla tive authority to do anything about it. The Mini ster at the present time can still do something about it for a very good reason, and the Member for St. Johns impli ed it. He said, as long as the Human Rights legislation is still on the books, then the policy that has followed or is required to be followed in private ind ustry should be followed by the government.

But the government, if it saw fit, or a majority of the Legislature if it saw fit and did not have a whip on it, could say yes, the courts have made that decision, that we who are the lawmakers think that the freedom of contract, and many other considerations which effect people at the age of 65 is so important that we are going to, as a matter of policy, change that law. I gather that's what the Min ister said.

He didn't say he's going to change it, he said that he is going to solicit opinions from various groups to find out whether or not it should be changed, and I don't want to trespass on the time of the honourable members. I don't what he said as to how he is going to deal with it in the Civil Service. I do know, Mr. Chairman, that despite all of the good things that could be said about a person being permitted to work beyond 65, there are also some problems; one of the major problems being that people within the system do not have some idea as to when their promotions take place up the ladder.

A far more serious problem, Mr. Chairman, is how you treat the aged people, because after 65 a person may have an entirely di fferent viewpoint as to his own qualifications than his emplo yer has, and right now that is for the most part, and I say for the most part because exceptions are made and possibly too often rriade, everybody knows that at 65 they retire and get �. fairly decent pension, both from the CPP and from the Civil Se rvce. When a person is confronted with his feeling about himself that he can still work and finds that in conflict with others, I can foresee, Mr.

Chairman, and I pose this as a problem, numerous arbitrations as to whether a person is still competent to carry on his function and evidence given as to senility and other things which would be far more damagin g to the person who has gone beyond 65 than is a well-kno wn compul sory retirement age. There are various side s to the humanity of this question. Mr. Chairman, it used to be the case that judges did not have a retirement age. They are now retired by legislation - and I am stating what I believe, I may be wrong - at age 75. People are nodding their heads - 75. Mr.

Chairman, let us presume that the Canadian Charter of Rights, and it doesn't but let us presume it contained a provision that there will be no discrimina tion on account of age. Let us assume at age 75, some judge challenged that legislation as being contrary to the entrenched Bill of Rights, and let us assume that the courts made not a peculiar decision, but a decision comple tely consistent with the decision that has already been made by Mr. Justice Hamilton. I gather it's gone to the Court of Appeal; confirmed by the Court of Appeal; it's now going to the Supr eme Court of Canada.

Let us presume that the court made a similar decision. Then the Federal Government Statute which legislates this horrendous cruel-to-the-aged provision that a judge shall retire at the age of 75, was struck down by the judges as being ultra vires of the Constitution, non­ Constitutional. Then in order for judges to be retired at 75 you would have to have a Constitutional amendment agreed to by the provinces, agreed to by the Federal Government, agreed to by the Senate, saying that you can retire people at 75. Mr.

Chairman, I happen to think that there is great validity to giving emp loyers and employees the right to enter into a collective agreement providing for a compu lsory retirement provision. I happen to think that also that is a matter of public policy, not a matter of essential rights, but a matter of policy, because various rights are involved. I am glad that the Mi nister is at least saying that he is going to find out and that he doesn't know the answer yet and that he is going to do something.

I may feel more positive about the question, but that doesn't make me right and the Min ister wrong. lt probably makes me think I'm right, but at least the Mini ster is able to bring in legislation saying that Human Rights Act is going tb be amended to conform with the will of the public. That would not be available to us, and I think we should all be cognizant of, it wou ld not be available to us if it was part of an entrenched Bill of Rights, or entrenched so-called Human Rights. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to ask the Min ister a couple of questions and it deals with the topic that we are on here this evening. Has there been any study by the Pension Comm ission of the effect of non-manda tory retirement, and where certain pension plans have a maximum contributing factor, based usuall y on years, times a factor of 2 or some other factor that they come up with. I am speaking from some experience with this, because I know on the pension plan that I belonged to on the railway, it's 35 years 1214

Monday, 2 March, 1981 times a factor of 2, which giv es you 70 units. After that time, no further contribution is made to the pension plan. In other words, you have a paid-up pension plan. It is possible now, since apprentices start at an average age of about 17 or 18 years of age serving a five-year apprenticeship; even if they start at the age of 20, they would at age 55 have the req uired numb er of units.

That means, and there is an option that if you wish to retire at age 60, there is no reduction except the base that you are working on, but if there was non-man datory retirement, which at the present time is a condition of employment when you are hired, I belie ve both by the CNR and the CPR, that if you are under the age of 40, you must be a member of the pension plan, and you must retire at age 65; that's a condition of employment. That's, I imagine, is what the Minister is speaking of.

But supposing we had a person that at age 55 is completely paid up in a pension plan, he works beyond the age of 65, which means that for ten years there have been no contributions on behalf of that emplo yee; he works another five or ten years; what effect would that have on the actuarial value of the pension plan as it is dealing with new emp loyees coming into the plan? I would respectf ully submit to the Min ister that there is some weak ening of the actuarial viability of the plan if there is no mandatory age of retirement. The only way around that is perhaps in the method that is used here for legislators.

I belie ve it is 23 times whatever the magic figure is for Mem bers of the Leg islativ e Assem bly in contri bution to the pension plan that they have. But regardless if the stay here over the 23 tim es whatever the magic factoring numb er is, they sti ll contribute to the pension plan. But what I want to know is, has the Commission do ne any actuarial studie s ·on what effect, by allowing people to work beyond the age of 65, where they may no longer contribute to pension plans, effect the actuarial viability of their pension plan? If they haven 't, is the Mini ster anticipating such a study? MR.

MacMASTER: No we haven't done that precise type of study and I'll take the suggestion under advisement. MR. JENKINS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I realize that this is a very thorny question and I don't expect the Min ister to have the answers and I don't expect the Pension Commission to have the answers.

We have been operat ing for many years on the premise that the age of retirement will be 65 and 1 don't disagree with that and I'm, maybe on the horns of a dilemma and maybe even be hoisted on the old petard here some way or other, but I do feel a certain amount of sympathy for those who wish to work beyond the age of 65. But I don't want to see that happen, if it's going to be at the expense of those emp loyees, because those emplo yees who want to retire at the age 65 or wish to retire at age 60, it is my humble opinion, I think it is going to hurt pension pla ns.

I may be wrong , but tha t's my opinion, that it will hurt pension plans in the long run. And I think this afternoon, when we were having our discussion, Mr. Chairman, the Mini ster and 1 agreed that one of the pension plans that we were talking about this afternoon is in trouble; I think we both agreed on that. And I certainly would not want to see the existing private pension plans that are in place and some people have been constributing for many years, to be placed in jeopardy, where they have an inability to maintain what they have promised to the employee over a period of years.

If allo wing people to work · beyond the age of mandatory retirement affects the pension plans that we have in place in this country of ours, then I say that we have to, we have to sit down. Not only this Minis ter and this Pension Commission, but all groups that are supplying penions here, or in the pension plan busine ss in this country, because otherwise we're going to get ourselves into one devil of a jackpot, whereby people, who have contributed in good faith for many years, may find that when they come to retire, that the money is not there that they thought would be there.

And that I think would be a very sad dis service. And I'm glad to see that the Min ister is thinki ng of looking into what effects, if we do take these mandatory age retirements off, what effects it would have. And I think perhaps, a good plan to study would maybe be the Pension Plan that we have for the emplo yees of the government; you have a good case to look at.

And I realize the Minister's position and I hope I'm not misquoting him, but as far as what I'v e - I think, my un derstand ing is that the Min ister says that the decision that has been made, do es not affect members of th e MGE A or th ose un der the government pension plan. But we're not just talking about that pension plan; we're talking of all the pension plans and we're trying to sell a pension plan. The Min ister is very actively trying to sell pensions as a means for people to retire with dignity and to have a decent life when they no longer wish to work.

I know in my father's case, when he retired, I said that when we had the opening Min ister's remarks, it would have been the greatest thing in the world for him to have been able to work at some thing else, but because he reached the age of 65 . . . but 1 think he was very upset; I think it shortened his years.

But I think also and I know that the department is doing it and various emplo yers and empl oyee groups are setting up plans of pre-ret irement plan ning. 1 think this is something that we have to do and we have to do far more then we are doing, so I would say to the Min ister that he has a thorny problem. 1 understand his problem; I sympathize with him. And it's not an easy answer; it's not a yes and no answer, and if that sounds li ke I'm tr ying to butter the Min ister up, I can assure you, I'm not.

Because 1 realize that this is not just simply a case of allowing someone to work after the age of ma nd atory retirement, because I think there are many many ramifications to that thing and I hope that a sufficient study will be made, not only by this government in this province, but all of the governments in the ten provinces and the Federal Government. And I think it's something that we have to come to grips with in the very near future, before this thin g gets out of hand. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 89 2 (1) - pass - the Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR.

PETER FOX: Yes, I just have a couple of questions of the Mini ster before we pass this. 1215

Monday, 2 March, 1981 In respect to di sclosu res, were there any delinquen cies or late filings? MR. MacMASTER: None, Mr. Speaker. MR. FOX: What about funding? Was there any late funding in respect to any of the plans? MR. MacMASTER: One had a de ficiency, Mr. Chairman, and it was straightened out. MR. FOX: Another question on funding. In respect to the 12 0 da ys, which is four months of the employer filing his contributions - has there been any research do ne as to whe ther it's really necessary.

I know it's 60 days for the employee's contributions we put in; it's double the amount of time for the emp loyers and it's certainly in these days of high interest rates, there's a lot of money gained

whereas it could be gained on the side of the employees pension plan. Ha s there been any research into whether that should be changed and shortened? MR. MacMASTER: I am advised, Mr. Chairman, that some plans are on a deferred profit program situation where the calculations are made in 12 0-day periods. MR. FOX: Well finally then, that's for those plans that have that special clause built in, but in other areas where it's just a straight contribution by both sides, one side gains the advantage - well, actually, it's the same money, but one side still has twice as much time in which to make its payments.

Has there been any research to see whether that shouldn't be im proved? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we can tell the member that we'll look at it, but I've been told that there are some di fficulties in the admin istration of trying to make it any shorter. I'll try and get a more precise answer to that question for the member. MR. FOX: Thank you. Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Resolution 89.(2)(g)(l) - pass; (g)

(2) Other Exp enditur e $58, 700 - the Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Could the Min ister give us a brief explanation of the increases. is there inflationary cost built in or is there anything extra than what there was there last year? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Ho nour able Mini ster. MR.

MacMASTER: There are two major increases, there is a $10,000 incr ease in adver tising and exhibits, that's for seminars and programs that we'll be putting on throughout the Province, and the other is $10,000 in crease, in fact. more than $1 1, 000 increase, we call it Other Miscella neous, and that's to get initially that Volun teer Emp loyee Pension Program going throughout the Province. it's going to cost us some money and we put in a figure of $10,000 to $11,000. (Interjection)- Yes. it is. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (g)(2) pass; Reso lution 89 - pass, Resolved that there be granted to her Ma jesty a sum not exce eding $5,696,200 for Labour and Manpo wer pass; Resolution 90, Manpo wer Division (

a) Research, (

I) Salaries $432,900 - pass. The Honourable Min ister. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the Research Branch is respon sible for conducting studies and pro viding in forma tion in support of effective planning, management and policies in the Labour and Manp ower areas. The main objectives of the Branch are: (

I) To identify current and future Manpo wer needs in Manitoba to assist programs supporting economic growth and human resource development policies.

(2) To assess the effectiveness and impa ct of Manpower programs operating in Manitoba.

(3) To provide information and analysis required for planning, development and funding of Manpo wer programs.

(4) To analyze the impact of Federal and Provincial Labour and Manpower policies.

(5) To develop in formation on labour relations clima te in Manitoba.

(6) To provide research and technical assistance to the Department and other organizations.

During the past year the Research Branch has impr oved and expanded its activities in a number of high priority areas including: Analysis of Labour Ma rket trends and Ma np ower requ ir ements in Manitoba and the identification of skill shortages and training needs; development of in formation to supp ort career couns elling in the planning of provincial training programs; measurement of labour ma rket outcomes of training and educational programs; monitoring the performance and funding patterns of Federal Provincial Manpo wer Programs; development of management information systems for departmental programs and pro visi ons of other research and technical assistance.

Staffing for the previous year was 15 staff man years. We are requesting 16.26 for 198 1- 82, an increase of 1.2 staff. The additional staff man years will provide consultative and technical assistance for employers in planning and developing Man power resources. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have a stack of research programs,an analysis that we've done, and I'd like to read them off, some of the development brochures and pamph lets and booklets that we developed this year.

One is Comparative Analysis of Labour Market Outcomes of Gradua tes and Non-G raduates from Manitoba Commun ity Colleges; Quarterly Report on Occupational Skill Sh ortages in Manitoba; Manitoba Labour Ma rket In formation Bulletin; The Occupational Outlook for Mani toba; Labour Organizations in Manitoba in 1980; Major Provisions and Negotiated Working Conditions in Ma nitoba; Collective Bargaining Agreements in effect January 1st, 1980; Apprenticeship Training Follow-up Su rvey of 1978 -79 Apprentices; Thompson Career Resource Centre Needs Assessment; The Handbook on Labour Ma rket Experienc es of Community College Gradua tes; 1978 Statistics Canada National Graduate Su rvey of 1976 Univ ersity and College Gradua tes, Comparison of Manitoba National Results; and the 19 78 Statistics Canada National Gradua te Su rvey of 19 76 Un iversity and College Graduates, Executive

Summary of Manitoba Results; and the Manitoba Collective Agreement Explorations in 19 81. 1216

Monday, 2 March, 1981 In addition to tha t Mr. Chairman, before the Session is through and the fiscal year is wrapped up and we have things finalized, we'll have available the Private Sector Youth Emplo yment Report; Summer Education Program Report; New Careers Outcome Sur vey ; Community Col leges Labour Ma rket Outcome Sur vey; and we'll have one on the Women's Bureau Survey, of women ages 45 to 46. So we have five more coming in addition to the ones we've tabled this even ing. MR.

JE NKINS: wish to thank the Mini ster for making these documents available, and I'll see that my colleague, the Member for Churchill, gets them. I don't know whether the Min ister wants me to spend a lot of late nights here but, -(In terject ion)- or if he wants a report back in the near future but if he does I can assure him it won't be in the near future. MR. MacMASTER: My staff has spent a lot of late nights and long hours putting them together, but it's part of the Research Department's job.

We said a couple of years ago that we we're going to do it; we said we were prepared to table a variety of reports as time went by, and we've tabled a few of them tonight and we've assured you of five more to come. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Minister again for the tabling of these documents and I wish I would have had them a little earlier, perhaps I could of maybe asked some more intelligent questions, but I'm just going to have try to work from the way I see the research going on, and I do have some questions that I do wish to ask.

The one question that I wish - and I just didn' t quite get what the Mini ster was referring to when he stated the in crease in the 1.6 staff man years in the Research Department, what this one person is going to do? I'm sorry I missed that. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, we have felt that part of the defective system in place our country is the fact that ind ustries, not all of them, but certainly some of them have not done enough forward planning for Manpower needs, consequently the Departments of Labour and Manpower right across Canada have had a lot of difficulty trying to put together the kind of programs that we need.

We've been working very clos e with unio ns and with indus try and one of the SMYs in this particular case will be working with ind ustry trying to set up systems with them and assist them in projecting the type of Manpower needs that we're going to have down the road. It's very difficult, as history has dic tated in our country, for us to keep encouraging young people to take a variety of trades when we don't really know systematically down the road and with any authority just what the needs of our province, our region, or our countr y will be.

So we have decided - we have added several people during the cou rse of the year to the Ap prentice ship Division, working with the apprenticeship people and the trades, and now we think we need one person to work with indus try, to try and get a system in place where they can start project ing their needs and then the right hand can work with the left hand and we can start encouraging young people to get into some of the tr ades, professions, jobs, whatever you will, that we will be forecasting with some authority. We will know that the needs will be there and the young people will have jobs when they graduate.

MR. JENKINS: I thank the Min ister for that further explanation. I think it is a worthwhile project that the department is embarking upon. This research that we have here is for the whole Manpower Division? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, the whole thing, Mr. Chairman. MR. JENKINS: I supposethe Labour Division as well as the Manpower Division; it does the total research for the department. One of the reports that the Minister hoped to table is the report from the Women's Bureau dealing with the Apprenticeship Program; I belie ve that is one of the ones that he ... no? MR. MacMASTER: No, Mr. Chairman, that wasn't one of them.

MR. JENKINS: Maybe the Min ister misunder stood me, Mr. Chairman. Is that one of the ones he is going to be tabling or is it one of those that he is going to working on? MR. MacMASTER: No, Mr. Chairman, I don't think we'll have a report on that this year. We have just got our feet wet, so to speak. We have got into the program; we have 12 or 13 women in a program; we are adding to that virtually daily.

I think it will take a year, at least, before we can gi ve you a good assess ment of the problems we had, how we corrected them, where we're at, how well we are doing, and how the program is being expanded to fit the needs. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Mini ster, aside from all this research which is going to give us a thrust in a certain direction, whether the Min ister or his staff, can ind icate the new areas that we have already developed since last year? Have we looked at any new training, and what courses have been developed?

I know that they have to be in conj unction, sometimes, with the Federal Government as wel l, whether they have brought in new courses? Secondly, I would like to know whether the reverse has taken place and some of the old and regular trades, whether we have cut back in some of those areas because of the research that has come out of his department. Are we buying new kinds of courses and are we buying less of some of the regulars? Can he give us an update? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, without trying to be picky, I wonder if the Member for Kildonan could rais e that precise qu estion un der the Trai ning Apprenticeship area and I can then tell him how we have been work ing with Education, Economic Dev elopment, Industry and Labour, to develop new curricu lums for various trades, how we have upgr aded the Trades Com mi ttees, the di fferent 1217

Monday, 2 March, 1981 trades t!l?t we have established since we were sitting and talking about my Estimates last year, the Critical Trades, Women in Trades, some new apprenticeship programs. I would prefer we go into all that under the Training and the Apprentice ship area, if the member would agree to that. MR. FO�: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have no objection to that.

The only reason I asked it here, I thought pos sibly the Mini ster would gi ve us general information as to whether that was taking place or not, because once we get into the specifics of training, we may go through all the areas and not realize that there are a couple of new ones or that some have been eliminated. That's why I thought maybe the Min ister would gi ve us a general im pressjon as to whether something new has taken place. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Min ister, I know I have missed a lot of this and if this has been covered before, I am sure the Mi nister will not hesitate to tell me about it, because that's what I hear all the time. However, I would like to ask some questions about the press release of February 20, 19 81. lt is headed, "Apprenticeship Training is Given High Ratings." lt is not only about apprenticeship, however. The

section headed, Occupational Outlook, it refers to favorable job opportunities expected in 19 81. I wonder what the follow-up is on this? Does the Min ister work with the Min ister of Education in trying to inform high school students where the jobs are likely to be in the coming year, or two, or three, at the time that they are likely to be selecting the trades or professions that they will enter? I know that for some time there have been opportunities, for instance, in tool and die making; we had some discussion on that last year.

There seems to be a perennial need for accounting and busi ness admi ni stration and mana gerial professionals, Mr. Chairman, and I wonder, how this is followed up. I appreciate the fact that this is published but what happens to it afterward? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we do send a copy to every counsellor in the school system in the Province of Mani toba.

We are working with the Depar tment of Educa tion, the Department of Economic Dev elopment, the trade labour movement in Manitoba, indu stry, man ufacturers' association, Chamber of Commerce, and we have established career resource centres across the province to help fill the needs and to inform our young people, not only our young people but midd le-aged people who wish to have a change in their career path in life, and the third group that it really helps are those women who are contemplating getting back into the work force; so we do those kinds of things.

To the Member for Kildonan, to his question, in general, some of the things - you can't just say research does it without taking training and apprenticeship but we, again, in working with unions, management, the Education Department, Economic Develop ment, we have established several things that we are pretty pleased with. We now have a mould and pattern workers trade in Manitoba designated, and we have a tool and die maker. We have the Women in Trades Program, which is now going reasonably successful and, as I say, being added to every day.

We have the Critical Trades Program and, by the way, with the Critical Trades Program, never mind the nons ense of per capita, us being one million or whatever, we have more in actual num bers involved in our Critical Trades Program in Manitoba than in any other province in Canada.

That's bar none, and we have only been at it 14 or 15 years and it speaks very highly and I should say at this point, and I can't let it go by, it speaks highly of not only the method of operation of our Manpower top people and all people associated with it, but we have something unique in Manitoba and I said it several times and I'll say it again, that our Man power Division people in Manitoba have the best rapport with the Federal civil servants in the same field in Manitoba than in any other jurisdiction.

I was at a national conf erence where other jurisdictions commented on that, and that's part of the reason that we are having some of the successes. I don't suppose it was always that way but it is working reasonably well today. The Critical Trades Program is a fine example. Other jurisdictions have it and it just isn't working. Never mind whether I like Mr. Axworthy or not, that doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. Our staff, with the Federal people, are working very well.

We have the Upgrading Tradesmen's Cou rse for construction workers during the course of winter, something I say, not with a heck of a lot of pride because I think I should have had it in place last year, but we just did n't quite get it last year. This year we have got it and I am pleased that we have got it; I think that it's just tremendous. There is only one other jurisdiction in Canada that has that and that's the Province of Ontario. So to say to the Member for Kildonan that it is all research, it's difficult to say.

The research people are the ones . that sort of pull it all together and pull the bits and pieces together, but there is a tremendous amount of co-operation taking place in the Province of Manitoba that all of us aren't aware of and that's why I took this moment or two to tell you that an awful lot of people are working very very hard to get some of these things going. We are the only province in Canada with a Women in Trades Program. So we are pretty pleased with some of the progress we have made. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: Yes, Mr. Chair.

I would like to say congratulations on your attitude. I was getting a little flak here from one of your coll eagues and I suggested that he could take a lesson from the Mini ster, Mr. Chair, in the matter of co-operating, in his attitude, I should say, towards working in co­ operative ventures. Perhaps I should especially congratulate the civil servants who are able to do it. I agree with you that whether or not you like the Min ister concerned, really shouldn't be the criterion on how well one provincial department co-operates with the Federal department. So I think that it is a very mature attitude.

I wanted to ask about the Women in Trades project, Mr. Chair. Another press release, February 1218

Monday, 2 March, 1981 20, said that the initial project gave extra support and preparation for about a dozen women interested in careers in skille d trade s and assisted their emp loyers through wage subsidization. This is in a co-operative venture, I gather, with the Feds. How is that progressing? Are those women going on to unsubsid ized emplo yment or is it too soon? I take it that the idea is for them to become qual ified so that they will no longer need that subsid ization, which could then be transferred onto other women in trades. Is that the way it is working? MR. MacMASTER: I wonder, Mr.

Chairman, just again, I don't think I have been too picky going through these thi ngs, but the Training and Apprenticeship division deals precisely with every program. I really ask the member if she wouldn't mind leaving it until that stage, because if I go through it here, then another member has the right to go through one of the others, and go through one of the others, and eventually we will go through all appr enticeship and all training, and then when we get to Apprenticeship and Training, we would go all through it again.

I don't mind spending as much time as possible, but I would like to somehow keep it within the divisions if I possibly could. MS. WESTBURY: Well, all right, but I may be held up in the other commit tee at that time and then I'll miss it all, so that's my problem. I have to hit when I can get here. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(a) - pass - the Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: I, too, want to commend the Min ister in his remarks with respect to the areas that he has developed. As I said, we can get into development of the different training programs when we get down to the Training section.

There is just one other area that I would like to touch on, and that is to ask the Mini ster, in all this training that is taking place under Research, can he ind icate, and I think he mentioned it earlier in our di scussions in the committee, the correlation shift that exists between The Workp lace Safety and Health Act, and the various training programs? He did ind icate that there was a special emphasis in the upgrading of the construction trades. Now, is the same thing taking place in all the other training programs? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, we specifically set aside time in the upg rad ing course for construction workers this winter and earmarked it specifically for Workp lace Safety. The Member for Kildonan, I think, is aware that two or two-and-a-half years ago, it wasn't worth any governments time, really, to talk to the construction indus try, either management or labour, about trying to get them to co-operatively look at anything. Again, we were blessed with the help of some exceptionally good people who worked with that industry and got them together.

They were negotiating, I guess you might call it, a little more rationally than they did before. Lo and behold, after we got through the contract and the contract was signed, the initia tive came from them, sa ying, "Look, let's start talking about workpla ce safety; it certainly isn't the same as a foundry or a mine or anything, but we are interested and can you help us?" We said, you bet, and we have assigned people to work with them.

From that, of course, has flowed the co-operation of the indus try, the co-operation of the tradesmen, again with the Federal co-operation and ourselves to get the upgrading course going, and now that the indu stry tradesmen and industrialists are interested in workpla ce safety, it was through their initia tive as much as our own - it would be nice for me to say, sure I did, and my people did - that's nice stuff, but I think we should be a little more honest and give credit where it really li es, and it li es with that indu stry. They have come a long way in the last two years.

They had di fficulty talking to each other at one time, and that's only two-and-a-half years ago, and now they have got a contract. They are talking about a variety of other good things, and workplace safety is one of them. The Women in Trades Program, yes, workpla ce safety is part of their training and certainly there are segments of it within the apprenticeship. I was just talking to some apprentices over the weekend in Thompson and there are references made, both on the job and off the job, to workplace safety. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Min ister for the in formation.

Let me ask him further, in respect to the Women in Trades, are there special gui delin es suggested or laid down in respect to the workplace safety training as relating to li fting, carryi ng, toting, and things of this kind? Are any of those kinds of guidelin es being looked at in respect to males as well, because I think with the technology that we have, we still find that there are areas sometimes where people are having to do the kinds of things which are deleterious to their health.

I am just wondering whether the training program includes that as well, whether there has been any research towards that development? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Cha irman, the normal workpla ce safety emphasis as put on apprenticeship applies also to the Women in Trades program too. MR. FOX: I just have one other area to ask of the Min ister. Sinc e the Man power di vision in clude s immi gration but it no longer is designa ted as such, can the Mi nister ind icat to us on the committee, what kind of commun ications there are and what kind of development there is in respect to immigr ation under this department? MR.

MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, on Page 86 (c), Im migr ation and Settlement Services, it's a new branch. Could the member raise his questions on that at that particular time please? On page 86, Immi gration and Settlement Services (c), is a division onto itself. Thank you. MR. DEPUTY CHAI RMAN: 3.(a) - pass - The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chair person.

Last year in the House it was indica ted that the government was undertaking research in respect to the Manitoba Health Commission, Health Service Comm ission statistic s on population migr atio n, because there seemed to be di screpancy between 1219

Monday, 2 March, 1981 those statistics and the statistics that were being put forward by Statistics Canada. I'd ask the Mini ster if that research was undertaken by this particular department? MR. MacMASTER: No that's under Immi gration and Settlement Servic es in conjunction with the Department of Health, but we'll deal with our portion of it on page 86, (

c) Imm igration and Settlement Services. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(a) - pass - the Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Just pursuant to that, just so I'm clear on exactly where that report went, part of it was done by the Department of Health itself and those figu res were interrelated with the figures which came out of the Min ister's Division of Immi gration - Is that correct? - Or Immig ration Section?

A couple of years ago, at least I believe it was a couple of years ago, when the Women's Bureau lost their research officer, or the research officer position was changed into a di fferent position, the Mi nister indic ated that the Research Branch itself, would be undertaking much of the research that had been done by that individual within the Women's Bureau. My question to the Mini ster is if he can specify what activities this department has done or this division, this branch has done on behalf of the Women's Bureau to take up the slack that was created by the lose of a researcher. MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, they do a variety of things as requested by the Wom en's Bureau, but the Member for Churchill was absent when I outlined the reports that we would be filing at a later date, and one of them is the Women's Bureau Su rvey of Women aged 45 to 65. They gathered the information and we put it together within Research and within the next few weeks there's four or five other reports that I have already named on Hansard, that we'll be filing. MR. COWAN: I think it's im portant to note that the Memb er for Fort Rouge said that nobody had inquired of her as to the research that was being done. MR.

MacMASTER: We thought you were younger. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(a) - pass; 3.

(2) Other Expenditures - $99,300 - the Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Again basically all we'd ask for is a rundown, it can be in written form that's given to us at a later time, if the Mi nister so desir es to do it in that way. MR. MacMASTER: No, it's all right, I'll get it, he knows I'll get it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (2) - pass; Federal­ Provincial Training Agreements: Salaries - $9 1 ,000 - the Honourable Mini ster. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, the responsibilities and objectives of the branch arise from Provincial obligations under the current Adult Occupational Training Agreement - April 1/ 78 to March 31/ 81. Extended for one year to March 31s t, 19 80 to and thereafter to be renewed. Ma jor responsi biliti es:

(1) To assist with assessments of Manpo wer Development and Training Programs and any changes introduced to them;

(2) To co-ordina te the development and implementation of the annually-planned purchase by Employment and Immi gration Canada of Adult Occupational Trai ning Servic es for Ma ni toba;

(3) To provide provincial . . . secretarial services for the Canada­ Manitoba Manpower Needs Committee. Major objective:

(1) To ensure that the terms of the AL T Agreement and the mandate of the M and C are carried out:

(2) To ensure that adult training services provided und er the AL T Agreement are dir ected to meet jointly identified priority manpo wer needs and training requirements of the province;

(3) To utilize efficiently Provincial and Federal training resources. Last year we had three SMYs. This year we need and require three SMYs. No change. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (b)(1) - pass; (b)

(2) Other Expensitur es - $8,000 - pass - the Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes the same requirement. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Agreed. (Agreed) (

b) pass; Immi gration and Settlement Services (c)

(1) Salaries - $1 68,300 - the Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: Yes, Mr. Chair ... MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Oh,l 'm sorry, the Honourable Mini ster. MS. WESTBURY: I'm sorry. MR. MacMASTER: Can I make the opening statement? The Immigr ation and Settlement Branch was formally established within the Department of Labour and Man power on April 1s t, 19 80 to enable the Provincial Government to respond to issues related to immigraton, demography and cit izenship. During 19 80-81, professional staff with expertise in these areas were hired by the branch. The specific objectives of the branch are:

(1) To provide, in conjunction with other departments, anal ysis of issues conc erning immigr ation , cit izen ship and demography;

(2) To ensure that orientation, language and citizenship materials are developed and co­ ordina ted;

(3) To participate in the development of a migration data collection system and ensure that ongoing population data analysis is carried out;

(4) To review and assess a del ivery of Federal, Provincial and voluntary sector settlement services available in Manitoba. The activitie s of the branch in volve Federal­ Provi ncia l consultation on the matters of immigr ation, citizenship and demography and the dev elopment of a co-ord ina ted app roach to settlement services. Major thrusts in 19 80-81 were the design and deliv ery of a questionnair e to assess the integration of lndochi nese refugees, a preparation of settlement inf ormation for immi grants, and a grant to the International Centre for the teaching of English as a 1220

Monday, 2 March, 1981 second language and life skills to immigr ant childr en in day-care at the centre. Branch professi onals through cont act with provincial departments as well as with the officials in the Feder al-Mun icipal Governments deal with a wide range of imm igration issue s which touch on Manitoba's economic and social demographic objectives and programs. In 19 80-8 1 fiscal year, the branch participated in planning for the 19 80-81 levels of immigr ation and has prepared content material for a Manito ba­ Canada Imm igration Agreement. Last year there were 6.23 staff man years.

We are requesting seven staff man years for 19 81- 82, an in crease of .26. The additional half SMY is for clerical support person. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Again I'd like to ask the Min ister how this is integrated with the other training areas for one; and secondly, I think I spoke to the Min ister in respect to some immigrant people being involved through care services, could he also in form the committee what the relationship is there and then how it functions? MR. MacMASTER: Could you repeat that last part? MR.

FOX: It's in respect to people who are immigr ants and I find that some of them are working through Care Services, in assisting the elderly. I would imagine th ey're work ing thr ough the Department of Health, what the correla tionship is there. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Health Care situation - I have talked to the Mini ster of Health and he's getting some material together for me. I assure the member that I'll get that to him. The agencies he's talking about that are out there, who supply care and utilize people, that's what the member was asking ... MR. FOX: Mr.

Chairman, that leads to a further question, and I don't know whether the Mini ster has the answer or whether he will get it when he gets the other information. Which department handles the immigration, the Manpower Division or the Health Department, or is it requested and what is the route that it takes place? Would he get that information as well if he hasn't got it now? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, approxima tely two years ago the Fed eral Governmen t passed legislation wtJere they said in fact that they would consult with provincial governments as it related to immi gration levels.

That was the first in our country's history. What had normally taken place was that the Federal Go vernment decided th ere would be 200,000, 300,000, 400,000 whatever the case might be. That's been dropping off, that numb er, fairly substan tially in the last few years. Two years ago th ey did consult. We can be critic al of the consultative process. It was more of, at that stage, this is the numb er we would like this year, and we didn' t really have much of a chance to consult.

I have been in touch with the Federal Mini ster, not overly critical, but saying that somehow we must find time to do a little more consulting on what the levels for our country are going to be, if in fact that word is to really have some meaning. I appreciate that, and I just can't remember the months that it was, but he wasn't in office very long before it was upon him that a number had to be established and in fairness, I suppose, he never had time to really get the consulta tive mechanism in place. We have voiced our objection; it's been duly noted.

I suspect, hopefully, that next year there will be meaningful consultation take place. Who does it take place with? Not the Department of Health per se, it takes pla ce with my division, Manp ower, Imm igration and Settlement Services. They are the people that work with myself to prepare a position that we would then take to Ottawa, which would be representative of Manitoba's position.

We are presently in the mids t of opening up dis cussions with the Federal Government to try and get a provi ncial immig ration agreement with the Federal Government, specifying a little more clearly some of the grey areas - now who's resp onsibility is this and who's respo nsibility is that, and how the costs are shared , and where one's resp onsi bili ty leads to another, and more clearly define Manitoba's position as it stands within the country. There are, and I am guessi ng, two or three other provinces that do have agreements in place, and a couple of others are contemplating it.

We have taken what we think is the best out of the agreements that are in place now; added some ideas of our own, and we are now going to the negotiating committee with the Federal Government to see if we can't come up with an immigr ation agreement, Federal-Prov incial. Once that's in place and negotiated it will become public knowledge. The members opposite will have a copy of what the then agreement is, and you will be able to relate precis ely to how immi gration is handled, conducted, services provided, who pays, how they pay, when they're on and when they're off, and who's respons ib ility is what.

We think that should be more clearly outlined than it is today. MR. FOX: I thank the Min ister for that information. Withou t trying to get into too many specifics, I wonder if the Minis ter can inform us whether there are special categories that are being looked at in respect to im migr ati on, that is, special sciences, special trades qualifications and so on, and whether that's proportional to othe r no n-spe cific tr ades groups. I hope the Minis ter under stands what I am saying.

I would like to know whether you are asking for, when you are getting the immigr ation quotas, that there be a certain numb er of particular trades, because we are short of those in Manitoba, and how does that to compare to domestics and others and farm labour, too? MR. MacMASTER: Part of what the member has said is exactly what we are looking at. By and large it's been a pretty loose sort of an arrangement over the years. If you went back three years ago, it was more than loose, it was totally decided in Ottawa by the Federal Government.

Then a consultation method was im plemented, hasn't been followed up all that well; we suspect that it will be in the future. In addition to this, we as a province, want to get an imm igration agreement with the Federal Government 1221

Monday, 2 March, 1981 signed. We have traditionally taken approximately 5 percent of the national total. There's been no real relationship to whether it was strictly humanitarian, whether it was trades, whether it was from a specific country, whether it was professions or entrepreneurs, or any of that type of thing.

We haven't, and I don't want to di sclose our complete negotiating position, I don't think the member would want me to, but we think that as a province we should, when we are talking about the Federal Government, we will be talking about di fferent categories and classifications and circu mstances under which we think we should get a share, if 5 percent was the overall, or 6 or 7, a share of what is coming into Canada in the way of people and the quali fications that they have. Up till now that hasn't been spelled out in any way, shape, or form.

We have basically taken 5 percent with no strings attached, or no real planning or dir ection. We think we should be a little more specific. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to refer to a question that I asked last year under this section. The Mini ster was very frank with me at that time, with us, with the comm ittee, at that time.

I was referring to the deplorable conditions under which, it's reported to us, that some women imm igrants wor k, espe cially, perhaps, refugees, people who come in here in a condition of some fear, and if I may just take a couple of excerpts from the Min ister's answer to my question of last year and I said he was frank. He was frank in saying that he couldn't be qu ite frank.

But he said that, "Our department and the federal authorities are aware of some situations which neither the Provincial Government nor the Federal Government feel to be satisfactory; we are looking into that presently today and I'm really not at liberty, etc." Then he goes on, "the precise answer is by and large generally, the refugees and imm igrants in Manitoba are working under reasonable conditions, are living reasonable cond itions, but we are in fact aware of some conditions that we are not satisfied with." Is the Minister in a position to elaborate on that at the moment or to tell me that those conditions have impro ved or no longer exist?

MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I am not sure if the member used the word that she wanted to use when she said fear, that some imm igrants are living in some type of fear. I would hope . . . MS. WESTBURY: May I explain what I meant? MR. MacMASTER: Certainly. MS. WESTBURY: I meant that they come here from an atmosphere of fear, and so because of the conditions from which they have escaped in many cases, they are fearful of authority and perhaps fearful of reporting unsatisfactory conditions; nothing about the conditions here. MR.

MacMASTER: I'm glad we had the explanation because I thought the member was suggesting that there were some refugees living in Manitoba under a cloud of fear and I wouldn't want that to be the case. If it was, I would certainly want to hear about it. We are not aware of im migr ants or refugees working in deplorable conditions or we would be wanting to know about that too. We have some concern and it's not as large a concern as our two sister provinces to the east, Ontario and Quebec, who have apparently some major problems in the do mestic field .

We don't think we have ma jor problems but we are presently working with the Federal Government to tighten up the methods that people are hired, and the methodology in which they are hired, the procedures in which they are hired for domestics. We have been looking at that pretty thoroughly for the last few months. We hope to have an arrangement, or a contract, or an agreement, or one or the other, in pl ace with the Federal Government as it applies to domestics, before very long. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR.

COWAN: I recall seeing in one of the reports or one of the press releases, the announcement that the government was provi din g immigr ants to the country with brochures on working conditions and their rights under the law in di fferent languages, and I would ask the Minis ter if he could upda te us as to the current status of that program, what success or failure he belie ves that program is having, and if there is any consi deration of expan ding that particular program. MR. MacMASTER: Mr .

Chairman, I hope the release didn' t say that we were giving them out yet I think, and I'm hoping again, that the release said that we are developing in various languages, the very precise type of brochure that the member is talking about it. MR.

COWAN: I am going from memory and I don't have the release before me, so it is entirely possible that it said that they were in a developmental stage and not completed as of yet I'm glad the Mini ster corrected the record, but I would ask him to provide us with some detail ed in formation as to that program, how they are going di stribute those brochures, what languages will in fact be addr essed by the brochures, how they are going to monitor that program as to its effectiveness.

Tho se sorts of questions are important to a better understanding of this program which can be a very productive and essen tial part of welcoming immig rants to the province. MR. MacMASTER: The Guide Book, as we'r e calling it, Mr. Chairman, will deal with housing, transportat ion, employment, health care, social services, recreat ion. Coping with wi nter, for an example, is a very key point lt will be written in appropria tely plain English; it will then be translated In to several major langua ges and di stributed to newcomers on arrival. MR.

COWAN: Could the Minis ter be more specific as to which languages are anticipa ted to be included in the brochure? MR. MacMASTER: I will take that as notice and try and get a general list of the languages. By and large, 1222

Monday, 2 March, 1981 we have an idea, from working with the Federal people, of the countries which we're dealing with and it do esn't take us too long to put together a translation of the particular countries that we're clealing with. Obviously the Vietnamese thing came upon us in a surge and that could have been appropria tely handled if that book would have been in place at that time. MR. COWAN: lt is my unders tanding that the Minister will get back to us with a specific list of languages.

As well, we'd ask him when he expects that project will be completed, or maybe I can reph rase the que stion, because the pr oject is probably an ongoing project as new langua ges become necessary, new translations become necessary. When can we expect a booklet to come out and how often we will we expect upda tes of those booklets? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we want to have the basic book in English comple ted to the best of our ability for the initial copy by early summer. I clon't know whether that would be June or July, but in there some place.

Then from there we will work on the translations and it will be periodically reviewed and peopl e will make sugg estions as to other contents that should be incorpora ted in the future, after they've viewed the original one and those suggestions will be gratefully received. MR.

COWAN: We're talking more about migr ation now than immigr ation, but I'd ask the Min ister if he's given any consideration to translating those booklets into Cree syllabics and into the Saulteaux language for older residents from reserve communities who are coming into the city seeking employment, who may be more familiar with those languages then they are with English, and that would provide them with a booklet in their own language that explains the very basic rights. I don't think you'd have to include the

section on coping with winter, however, as far as social services, as far as labour rights and obligations, as far as those other areas, I ima gine it could be a very beneficial booklet. Since the Min ister has it already transla ted into English and into, when he says common langua ge, that means I anticipa te very easily understandable language, it would not be that much more di fficult to translate it into syllabics. I would hope that the Mi nister would take that into consideration, and perhaps give us his opinion on the advisability of that. MR.

MacMASTER: I don't see any problem with that; that would have been one of our considerations in the first place, and the internal of the second is external. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (c)(1) - the Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes there's some other questions that I think should be addr essed under this particular section, and one of them is in respect to where imm igration flows are going, into what areas of work.

Is the Mi nis ter, eit her this department or the Research Department, number one, trying to get an overall view of what's happening; and number two, trying to keep an ongoing project onstream to determine changes and to determine exactly what those flows are, not at entry, but throughout a person's movement throughout the provincial labour force? MR.

MacMASTER: In occupational sectors: the Managerial Adminis tration approximately 3.9 percent; Natural Sciences, English and Math - 4.4 percent; Social sciences - .2 percent; Religion - 1 percent; Teaching and related - .9 percent; Medicine and Health - 4.8 perc ent; Artistic Liter ary and Perfo rming Arts .4 percent; Sp orts and Recreation - .6 percent; Clerical - .2 percent; Sales .6 percent; Service - 1.5 percent; Farming - 1. 8 percent; Processing .4 percent; Machining - 3.6 percent; Product fabricating - 73.7 percent; Cons truction - 1 percent; Other crafts and equipm ent operation - 1 percent. MR.

COWAN: When an immigr ant comes into the country, does the dep artment attempt to make personal contact in any way, or ensure that that indi vidual is provided with personal contact from another dep artment of the gov ernment, as a welcome wagon is too simpl istic a term, but it's on that concept of trying to provide that individual with information as to access to services and access to information? MR.

MacMASTER: Basically, and by and large, now without saying that we don't, that is the responsibili ty of the Federal Government, but more and more we're working with the Federal Government getting more of this information, but by and large that's the Federal Government's responsibility. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the Ho nourable Member for Fort Rouge touched on an area which brought something to mind and I'd like to ask the Mini ster whether there is any research in respect to imm igrants and the labour force to see if there is some exploitation takin g place, because generally many of them get hired by their own people and since they don't have knowledge of the Engli sh langua ge, then sometimes that takes pl ace, and although it may be mini mul, nevertheless it may be present.

What I'd like to ask the Mini ster is whether his dep artment do es any research into the correlationship between employers who are violating the Labour Act in any way and the fact that they have immigrant labour? MR. MacMASTER: We have had the odd instance. I suggest to the Member for Kildonan that people will be exploited as long as there is people. There are those on the one side who are the exploiters and there's others through wha tever makeup and characteristic God made them, are more susceptible to being exploited. I don't think that it's a large problem with the immigr ant people.

We have had the odd situation that we've investigated very thoroughly. I suppose we don't investigate it any more strenuously then we do others, but to be candid I suspect that our staff feels 122 3

Monday, 2 March, 1981 a little more emotional about it, just for the very reasons that the mem ber has said, that here is somebody who do esn't un derstand the English language and we find them being exploited, and you may be a little more aggressive in your investigating the situation. But yes, we hear, not many times, but on occasion, of a situation where a person is not being treated appropr iately and we inv estiga te that very aggressively. MR. FOX: wonder if the Mini ster can ind icate whether there is any amount of imm igration done that is sponsored by emp loyers.

Can he give us some kind of information on that? MR. MacMASTER: No t in the spon sorsh ip terminol8gy such as the Mennonite Chur ch sponsors imm igrants and refugees, not sponsorships. MR. FOX: I wonder if the Mini ster could explain, if he doesn't say sponsorship what does he mean? MR.

MacMASTER: Emp loyers do ma ke, on occasion, needs known to Canada, to the Canadian Imm igrati on people, of which the Cana d ian Immi gration people, if I can believe what they do and I suspect that it's correct to say that they search locally, provincially, nationally and if they can't fill the bill, then they'll be prepared to go overseas to see if they can fill that position for that employer. MR. FOX: The reason I ask, because at one time I recall Needle Trades Indus try had some difficulty recruiting Canadians, and so therefore they went abroad.

I do know that there are a number of small industries, some of them close to my constituency and some of them just beyond, where there are quite a few im migrants invo lved in small local industries. Also I'm aware that some of these industries have been before the Labour Department in respect to some of their pr actises and that's why I ju st wondered whether the research at all ind icated that occasionally this would happen.

I think the Mini ster explained that possibly his staff may have a bit of a keen eye, but nevertheless I think that what should be done is there should be correlationship between one branch of the Labour Department as compared to another, so that if there's a pattern emerges, then we would want to have a hard look at whether we should immi grate people and allow some of these indus trie s to receive these kind of emplo yees. Especially considering that at the present time, we have a lot of unemployed Manitobans as well, and they could be utilized if there were only going to get a fair shake. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, tha t's, if I didn't mention it when I was talking about the Manitoba­ Canada Agree ment, that would be pa rt of the concerns that we'd be expressing and negotiating with the Federal Government. In Manitoba, an emplo yer may apply to the Federal Government dir ectly without any dis cussion with the Provincial Government if they want nine people, no discussion whatsoever.

Now that may or may not be bad, but you may find a major in dustry who is getting riine and nine and nine and nine, and we think, now it's may be for good reason, it may be imp ossible, but we think that we should be made aware of future Ma nitobans who are coming to Manitoba and what ind ustry is requiring them. it ties in with a lot of reasons and I won't waste half an hour giving you a speech on it, but I feel pretty strong about the fact H an ind ustry needs those people, we should be made aware of that so we can then go to them and say okay, that's fine, but what training programs have you got in place for people here in our country?

MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Well on that same subject and the Mini ster is as aware as I am, that there have been a nu mber of concerns exp ressed by the mi ning ind ustry in Northern Manitoba about the availability of skilled tradespeople, and that they have to go overseas, pri marily to England, to recruit skil led tradespeople for job vacancies that exist in Northern Manitoba.

I'd ask the Mini ster if his department is researching that specific problem and if it has come up with an analysis of how we can better deal with those vacancies and fill them by apprenticeship training programs and by bringing skilled people up from Winnipeg. MR. MacMASTER: Part of our biggest push in critical trades is scattered throughout the province and once we get into the appr entic eship, the Member for Churchill will find that a lot of those critic al trade skills are in the nor th.

We are advocating the use of that program very strongly, the use of the appr enticeship system, and again I say to the member that once we're fortunate enough to get a Manitoba-Federal Agreement in pla ce, I think we'll have a little better hand on the handle. We know the handle is there now, but we can't quite get a hand on it. it's not super frustrating but it is a little frustrating to know that two or three key people are being brought in, in all kinds of indu stries, and we just aren't always aware of it until after the fact, and they don't have to deal with us by legislation. MR.

COWAN: When would we expect, or when should we expect that agreement to be reached? MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr. Chairman, we've got several agreements that are being negotiated with the Federal Government now. I can't tell you. I honestly can't tell you. If I was to say this summer, I think that's realistic. The Federal Government is busy negotiating a whole bunch of things, right across our country; some major, some medium-major. We think this is im portant, but maybe the negotiating horses with the Federal Government are gearing their energie s for other sets of negotiations.

I'd like to think that our proposals are reasonable. I don't think I've ever gone to the table with a set of proposals that were unreasonable. I've had people on either side of the table not necessarily agree with everything I put on the table, and I'm sure the Federal Government may not agree with everything I present here, but we think our propo sals are reasonable and we are fairly optimi stic that we're going to be successful in negotiating a reasonable agreement. I can't give you a date. 1224

Monday, 2 March, 1981 MR. COWAN: In the meanwhile, then, what effort is the department pursuing in regard to developing those skills that are lacking and are currently being provided for through immigration, through training in the north, through development of human resources that already exist in the north? MR. MacMASTER: Again, I just don't have the numb ers in front of me, but I will have in Apprenticeship and Training, the kinds of trades that are being developed.

This Critical Trades thing has really taken off and I think the member will probably be pleased with the numbers, because if we wanted to be as pessimistic as we could, we might take all the numbers, as I say, in Critical Trades tonight, and say every one of them would have been brought from someplace else, you know, if we wanted to take that far a spectrum. Now, I am not sure if that is exactly correct, but you could summarize that that might have been the case.

So I think tha t the Member for Chur chill and others will be pleased when we start giving out the numbers in Critical Trades and the fact that there are a large number of them in Northern Manitoba. MR. COWAN: Perhaps that di scussion is better suited to when we do talk about the Apprenticeship division and the Mi nister has his staff with them who will be able to provide us with the specific details. But as the Min ister is aware, it is an area of grave concern.

Is the problem here one - and the Min ister says that it is one of not being able to get the proper kind of information - is the problem that the employers are not providing the Mi nister or the government with that information or that the Federal Government iself is withholding that informatio? Because it would app ear to me that somebody would have that information available to them and the problem is one of linka ges and means of communi cation, rather than ones of mischievious intent. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, I find myself probably in a uniq ue position here in Manitoba, where no other Mini ster in - I don't think there is another Mini ster of the Crown on a provincial level in Canada that's in a position I am, where I am the Minister of Labour, dealing with all that that is, the Min ister of Manpower, dealing with all the variety and types of training programs we have dis cussed, and I am also the Mini ster respons i ble for Immi gration in the province. lt is like driving a tractor - you have got all the gears, really, in front of you, and we think that this year we are starting to put some of that together, between the research in indus try and labour, and Cr itical Trades, and appr entice ship pr ograms, and career resource counselling.

I think, if you wanted to look at the whole Man power division, you would start to see a pretty favourable pattern start to take place. But it has taken a couple of years, and we can say that's too long, but some pretty good things are starting to happen and we think that we can work them all to the advantage of Manitobans in the development of the human resource and in the development of history. MR. COWAN: We certainly wish the Mi nister luck in this and when it's a matter of negotiating with the Federal Government, it sometimes is a matter of luck as it is of logic and perseverance.

The next area is one that we di scussed last year and I am somewhat hesitant to put it on the table as it did cause quite a bit of acrimonious debate in the last set of Estimates but I think it is one issue that we should addr ess and hopefully we will do so without that sort of antagonistic debate. lt was not all from one party or another last time; it seemed to be rather free-flowing. That's the item involving the immigr ation of Mexican workers to work on the farms in Manitoba. The question that has to be asked of the Min ister is how many permits have been issued this year, if any? MR.

MacMASTER: There is a joint request from the workers group and the industry itself for 41 farm workers this year. MR. COWAN: Could the Min ister explain what workers group he is talking about, in specific? MR. MacMASTER: I am trying to find the title of it I think it is the Vegetable Workers' 1\ssociation, and it is located in Portage. They have a group. I have met with one of them and I can't for the life of me recall his name, but it is a Vegetable Workers' Association. They have a group of mostly Indian and Metis people that are working through that part of our province. MR.

COWAN: lt was they, along with the Growers Associat ion, who made that request. That would compare how, to the number that was requested last year? MR. MacMASTER: Thir ty-three last year. MR. COWAN: There were 33 last year. I seem to recall a figure of 20 or 24; was that the year before? MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR. COWAN: There seems to be an increase, then, in the number of permits which are issued under the provisions of the Act. I would ask the Mini ster for some comment as to why that increase is taking place. MR.

MacMASTER: The ratio that has been established is four local workers for one foreign worker in the fields. That ratio has been established and accept ed, so I don't know whether the mathematics bears out the logic, but if there were 33 last year and it was four times that local people, then of course there are more, there are four times 41 this year that are employed.

Part of it, I suppose, is that the indu stry itself is further developing and I think you will find that more in the farming community are getting in volv ed in this whole movement as obviously, more people are involved and they are finding it is working out to be beneficial to the local people and to the farming community. MR. COWAN: I hope it is not unfair to ask the Min ister for a comment on that 4 to 1 ratio, if he believes that is an appr opriate way to deal with the situation or if he sees that it is a temporary measure and that there should be other ways developed. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, I suppose the role of a Mini ster responsible for Manpower is to 1225

Monday, 2 March, 1981 in volve as many people as possi ble in as many ind ustri es as possi ble. Obviously mo re of the agricultural community from the indus trial side, and I don't know if farmers want to be called industrialists, but they are certainly ind ustrious. I don't know whether they want to fall into that category, but more of the indu stry are getting themselves involved and the farm workers group seems to be satisfied that there are more of their people becoming involved in the work. Maybe they think that it's good training for them and it is developing and involving more local people.

I suspect some of those thoughts and some of that rationale is going into the makeup of more people being involved. You see, last year if there were four times 33, that's 132 local people, this year it's four times 41, which is 16 4. So certainly there are a few more people coming from abroad, but the ratio, there are substantially more local people being involved. The ultima te, I guess, is some da y, somewhere, there will be really no need for that. MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairman, I have to apologize; I was di stracted for one moment and I mi ssed just the last sentence of the Min ister's remarks. MR.

MacMASTER: I said I suppo se, some day, somewhere, there will be enough of our own local people in volved that they thems elves will be spreading out and doing more training themselves. MR. COWAN: The problem in the debate that was presented last year was one that the farmers were unable to get enough local help to fill the needs. We see, if the formula is correct, that last year they were able to employ approximately 13 2 local workers and this year they were able to employ 16 4 local workers, which is 32 more local workers.

If those workers were available all along, what was the necessity of bringing in farm workers from Mexico to do that work? MR. MacMASTER: Without being an expert in the business, it may be that you would find, and I think you may find this, that the people they are bringing in are in fact experts in that field and they are bringing along apprenticeshi p-type people, where if you have one expert on the job, then that expert calls for several people who may not be as expert at the particular job.

That's the same as a work crew; if you have a first class mechanic, then there can be a lot of people working with that mechanic and the major job can take place, but if you take the first class mechanic away who has the comp lete expertise in the entire art of doing the job that he is doing, then the others may not be able to fill the bill. Now I am suspecting that's part of it, when they worked out the ratio, and it is agreed to by all parties. MR. COWAN: So then the farm workers who are being brought in from Mexico are being brought in in a supervisory capacity? MR.

MacMASTER: No, I wouldn't say a supervisory capacity, but I suspect that they are experts in that particular field. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (c)(1) - pass - the Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: The Min ister ind icates that he is not an expert in the area and I certainly am a less expert in the area than the Min ister, and have been asking the questions in the most exploratory way without trying to place a value judgment on the system.

But I would ask the Min ister if he is satisfied that the system is in fact working, that this 4 to 1 ratio is appropriate, that the immi gration is necessary in order to provide expertise in the field, and that we are locked into that 4 to 1 system until such a time as that expertise is developed locally. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Churchill agrees with me that neither one of us are experts and that is something we certainly agree on.

But I suspect that those who are in the industry are experts, and those that are working there and the Farm Workers' Association, those two bodies seem to think that this is a very equitable system and an equitable ratio and I am quite prepared to go on with that. MR. COWAN: Tha t brings the Farm Work ers' Association into the picture once again. The Mi nister says that he has had a meeting one time with them, although the details of that meeting escape him at the moment. I would ask him how this Farm Workers' Association was organized and how it has been chosen to be representative of the workers in the area?

Wha t author ity does it bring to its position? MR. MacMASTER: I can only suspect that it is a group of people who have been involved in that ind ustry over the course of the years and they have put themselves together an organization called an Ass ociation and that's the mann er in which, I suppose, unitedly they thought they could do a better job. MR. COWAN: Do they operate in the same way as say then, the Teachers' Association or any other professional association? Is that the concept behind this group?

I am not saying that it has to have officers and reps; I am just saying, is that the conceptual arrangement of the Farm Workers' Association? MR. MacMASTER: I suggest that it is, keeping in mind that it is very seasonal work. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (c)(1) - pass - the Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: On Page 58 of your Annual Report, through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Min ister, you state that Manitoba has indic ated through the year 1981 that it is prepared to accept 5 to 7 percent of the national total of $130,000 to $1 40,000.00, which would give us a basic level of . . . MR.

MacMASTER: Not dollars; people. MR. JENKINS: I understand, people. MR. MacMASTER: You said $13 0,000.00. MR. JENKINS: I'm sorry, I meant 130,000 people. This

section here, does it specify to the Federal Government in what fields that it wishes to receive, and I realize from what the Min ister has answered before that they don't really have the opportunity of 1226

Monday, 2 March, 1981 saying.

Then in other words, we are just putting forth a figure and we might get a whole bunch of people in one category that there really is perhaps no need for in this province, perhaps the work that would be required for these people would not be here and 1 know that the Mi nister is very anxious to come to an agreement with the Federal Government in this respect and I think it makes a lot of sense because if it hadn't been looking at the figures here in the past two years, the imm igration to the Pr ovince of Mani toba, if it hadn't been for the refugees that were brought into the province in the years 1979 and 1980, we wouldn't have achieved the figures of 4.4 and 5.5 respectively for the years 1979 and 1980 of the national total, and I don't know what job skills that the people had who were in the refugee catagory into the Province of Mani toba, but the department makes no reques t whats oever.

Th ey don't even in a consultative n<�turP Are not -(I nterjection)- "'S the Minis ter says, "not at the present time because there is no agreeme nt," but does not the department make some suggestions itself even if there is no agreement? If there was an acute shortage, well, 1 think one of the questions that was raised by the Member for Churchill, in the north where there is a shortage of -(I nterjection)- the industries here in Man itoba then make no request except in the . . . MR.

MacMASTER: As I outlined, up to nine people, ind ustrie s can deal di rectly with the Federal Government and that involves a fair number of people, by and large, the ones we've been dealing with traditionally sinc e tim e ever was, was humanitarian reasons and that's why we want an agreement so we can talk to the Federal Government about entrepreneurs, trades people, skilled people, professional people, along with the humanita rian reasons that our countr y takes refugees and imm igrants. MR.

JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that information, that then makes to my estimation a lot of sense to get an agreement even though notwithstand ing

an Act passed in 1978 and the proclamation of The Federal Immigration Act that the Federal Government would work with the provinces but it seems like it's just on a proclamation basis and I certainly hope that the Mini ster will be able to in the near future, but given the process of Federal­ Provincial negotiations, it makes one wonder.

In the Table 1, we see this group of, and except for the two groups, are imm ig ration int o the province, there's been a slight decrease in the Family Cla ss, the Assisted Relativ e but except for Independent and the Refugees and Designated, there is where the only increases were. Could the Mini ster tell me what is meant by Ind ependent? Are these people who immi grate to Canada, pick Manitoba as a place where they wish to settle, and are not under any federal or provincial assistance whatsoever or even ind ustry-wide? MR. MacMASTER: These are people, Mr. Chairman with job offers MR.

JENKINS: These are people with job offers. I thank the Mi nister for that information then. We are dealing with people who make their arrangements inde pendently coming to Man itoba and the figure had dropped from I think about 35 to about 12.6 and I just can't find the spot where I saw it. Perhaps the Minister could enlighten us on what seems to be the problem of people immigrating to Ma ni toba as a choice who are not under any assistance programs or anything who qualify under the skills and the other nature that is required under The Immig ration Act, the point system.

Why does Man itoba seem to be such a poor choice? Why do we seem to be on a declining line? I just can't find the

section that I was reading at the time. MR. MacMAS TER: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, on a national level, immigration through the nationa l mechanism has decreased dramatically in the last few years now, I can't tell you what the future plans of the present Federal Mi nister is for this forthcoming year, but there is substantially more in the mid­ Seventies coming into our country than there is now in all categories. MR.

JENKINS: In the Immi gration Offices that are maintai ned by the Federal Government overseas, does the province participate in any way in supplying information of job opportunities here in Canada for potential imm igrants to the country or is there any co-operation? I know there's very little consultation at the pr esent time but there may be job opportunities that are available in Manitoba that perhaps maybe Federal authorities are not aware of. I know, I was overseas one time and I had the opportunity to attend an immigration briefing of the potential im migrants and I must say, Mr.

Chairman, that some of the information that was being fed to potential im migrants was of very dubious nature, it almost was to the point that this was the land of great opportunity where the streets were paved with gold and you pic k up gold nuggets practicall y anywhere, which in many cases gives people a false im pression, and I just wondered if the province has any input whatsoever in pointing out some of the very great features that we have in our own province; you know, it's things like that, and if that is part of the consultation that is going on or hopefully, part of the consultation or sealing of an agreement with the Federal Government in that respect.

MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, a great deal of consultation takes place but we do not precisely have any input into what the Federal Government does in their foreign posts, but they are aware of course of some of the shortages that are in place of Mani toba because as an example we do have the Critical Trades Agreement, so they are aware of the areas that we do have shortages and they are aware of the successes and the people coming through the system trying to fill some of those critical trades. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Min ister for that information.

I can remember, I can recall this one gentleman that a number of years ago immig rated to this country with a fairly large family and I forget what the basic minimum wage was at that time but translated into the funds from the country he was coming from, it seemed like a fair wage, but when the poor chap got here and had to work under those wages and finding the cost of living being as such, he was in a very bad predicament. He unfortunately came as an unassisted immigrant but he had spent 1227

Monday, 2 March, 1981 practically all his money to come here and he was very di sappointed because the information that he had received was such a nature to leave him with the im pression that the wage that he could expect to receive for what work he performed would be much better than where he came from, and I think that is something that when the Mini ster is negotiating with the Federal Government that should be pointed out to them, that we have to as well as telling them working conditions, wages, we also have to tie it to the cost of living, so that people are not fooled when they . do come to this country, as the example that I'm giving the Mini ster and I would hope that would be part of the considera tion.

MR. MacMASTER: Well it certainly is Mr. Chairman, and it' s part of the rat ionale for wan ting an agree ment with the Federal Go vernmen t. The member talks about people being told of the streets lined with gold, reminds me of the story of the young fellow in Toronto whose father told him to go to Calgary where the streets were lined with gold, and he went to Calgary with one of his friends and they're walking down the street and he pointed out to his friend the 20-dollar bill laying on the sidewalk, and his friend said, well aren't you going to pick it up?

And he said, hell no, I don't want to go to work the first day I'm here. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, that's a good story. I particularly have no more questions that I wish to ask at this time. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (c)(1) - pass - the Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: I just have one question following on the earlier discussion to the Mini ster and that's in respect to the Farm Workers' Associa tion.

I really don't expect the Min ister to be able to provide an answer this evening, but I would like to present the question to him so that perhaps at our next sitting, he could come back with an answer, and that's in respect to where it gain s its authority to make decisions on behalf of the farm workers.

I just checke d through the Labour Organ iza tions in Manitoba book and didn't see any listing of it which I would assume because it includes associations and unions it would be in if it was a recogn ized asso ciation by the Department of Labour and Ma npower, at least the Research Branch of the Department of Labour and Man power, so I would just point that out to the Mini ster and ask him if he could come back with more detail on that particular organization, perhaps at our next sitting or during the Mi nister's Salary. MR.

MacMASTER: I'll get that and I assure him I'll deal with it under the Mi nister's Salary for sure. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Me mber for Kildonan. MR.

FOX: Just before we pass this, I would like to say that I am pleased that the Min ister is going to negotiate in respect to immigr ation and from our discussion that we've had, I would hope that some of the information we have passed on to him will be taken into consideration as well and I really wanted to make certain that we were going to be looking at Manitoba's needs not just as it was in the past, that we would have a hodgepodge of immigrants and take our quota.

I am delighted to hear that this is the thrust the Mini ster has in mind and I certainly hope that we will hear that announcement as soon as the negotiations have been concluded, because I realize that you cannot indic ate your position in advance. Nevertheless, it is of interest to us that the Mini ster is going to move in this direction.

The only other area that I would like to ind icate to him is that I did have a concern and I expressed it, and I would hope that his department would be looking a little closer at some of the employers that have been asking for employees, because being an immigr ant myself many many years ago, over 50 I must say now, I am aware that when you have a language barrier, it is very easy to be coerced and intimida ted until one finds one's legs, so to speak.

Ma ny people unintentionally are intimida ted but nevertheless, as the Min ister has ind icated, there are people who will exploit and those who will become exploited , sometimes because they want to and other times because they really don't know any better and aren't informed. I certainly hope that the Mini ster will look into that particular area. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I should also like to say, if we pass this area here, we are entering a much larger area, Training and Dev elopment, which will take some time. Possibly the Mini ster can consider the committee rising at this conjuncture. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are you assuring me that we will pass Immi gration and Sett lement Services, (c)(1) and (2). MR. FOX: That is what I am saying. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: (c)(1) - pass; (c)(2) - pass. MR. COWAN: Again, Mr. Chairperson, just on (c)(2), the Other Expenditur es by list. MR. MacMASTER: We' ll bring the la st few tomorrow afternoon, and it's the understanding of the committee that we will not sit tomorrow night or Wednesday. We are sitting tomorrow afternoon. Committee rise. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Commit tee rise. SUPPL V -CULTURAL AFFAIRS AND HISTORICAL RESOURCES MR.

CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): The Comm ittee will come to order. I would di rect the honourable members' attention to Page 37 of the Main Estimates, Department of Cultural Affairs and Hi storical Resources, Resolution No. 45, Item Clause 1. (b} Departmental Admin istration,

(1) Salaries pass. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Chairman, before the dinner hour, I asked the Mini ster some questions and I wondered if she could comment. 1228

Monday, 2 March, 1981 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mini ster. HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): I belie ve tfie Member for Elmwood is referring to why we doh' i have more functions in the summer, with particular reference to the festival that I belie ve was being contemplated by one Mr. Brock. He was in my office and we had a meeting. It was really too late when he came in to be able to set anyth ing up for this summer. He has a very good proposal and the department is very interested in what he has to offer.

We are planning to meet with him early in the fall so tha t we will be able to make plans ready and available for next summer. I would like to tell the member that we have a Festival Manitoba that is going to be running for 14 days straight this summer. That's the first time ever that there has been one run that length of time. It is starting July 13 th. It is going to be feat uring the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the Contemporary Dancers, the Symphony Orchestra, Chamber Orchestra, Jazz, Theatre in the Park, Folk Art shows, and others. So that will be a new inno vation for Winnip eg and Manitoba. MR.

CHA IRMAN: (1) pass. The Honour able Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr. Chairman, I don't have very many opening remarks, but I've listened with int erest to what has taken place so far. I would like first of all to acknowledge the fact that the Min ister has been working very hard and dil igently to save the Symphony and I think she has the backing of most Winnip egers in her endeavour there. I am sure that things are progressing and it is appreciated.

I hope that some way can be found to make the other cultural organizations as successful -· and this was referred to earlier by the Member for Elmwood - as successful as the Royal Winnip eg Ballet has been in balancing its budget, and the imaginat ive Day at the Races, I think, was the secret for the ballet. That imagina tive approach to fund-raising is some thing that would be very nice if it could snowball and absorb all the other cultural groups, but I am not able to come up with another program such as Day at the Races and I don't think very many other people can either.

It just seems to req uir e a particu lar type of talent which I don't possess to think of such inno vative ideas. I wonder if the Minister would tell us whether the position of Assistant Deputy Mi nister of Cultur al Affairs has been filled? It was, I think, Mary Elizabeth Bayer's position. I understand that has recently been advert ised. I am disappointed that it hasn't been filled before this time, and when can we expect an announcement to the effect that that position has been filled, if in fact it has not been filled, please? MRS. PRICE: The position has been bulle tined and advertised nationally.

There has been great inter est shown in it. There's been a very large number of applicants, and I'm sure that as soon as it gets down to the short list and the final decision, it shouldn't be too long. MS. WESTBURY: Thank you. In June 19 80, the Min ister annou nced establishment of a ten-member working group to advise Ministers on Heritage policy for the Manitoba Government. Will we be receiving a report from that group? Do they report only to the Mini ster? When can we expect to hear some of their recommendations, please? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Chairman, the report has been completed.

They are putting it into the proper form and it will be given to me very shortly. MS. WESTBURY: Will it be tabled in the House? MRS. PRICE: It will be available for public perusal. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. WESTBURY: I'm sorry, I keep forgetting to wait for you to say that. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a woman's prerogative. MS. WESTBURY: I thought it was all of our prerogative, Mr. Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman - particularly, yes, it is. MS.

WESTBURY: Would th e Mini ster tell us whether she is going to accep i the recommendations of the report to the Manitoba Arts Council on space and capital requirements of the arts in Manitoba? I'm sure they've been dis cussed in the department. Is the Mi nister pr oposi ng to recommend th ose recommendations to Cabinet, or what is going to be the fate of that ddcument, please? MRS.

PRICE: The document, while I've received a copy of it, the Arts Council is studying it at this moment and as soon as they have completed what i hey feel is their recommenda tion, they are going to be having a meeting with me, and that will be shortly. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) pass; (2) pass; (

b) pass. (

c) Planning and Devel opment, ( 1) pass; (2) pass; (

c) pass. (

d) Finance and Admi nistration, (1) pass, (2) pass; (

d) pass. (

e) Translation Ser vic es, (1) pass - the Honourable Memb er for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I belie ve tha t the Federally-inspired program to translate Manitoba's Statutes are in this sect ion. Is that correct? Is this the allocation or appropriation for the translation of Hansard and all of that? There's some $600,000 set aside here. As I recall newspaper accounts of the past week or so, Manitoba was not meeting the requirements of translation, there were problems in finding enough capable and competent translators and there appears to be a very slow attack on the particular problem.

I am wondering again whether I'm co rrect in speaking in thi s particular appropriation - right. Apparently it's going to take some five to ten years to catch up on the basic material that is required so I am wondering just what the govern ment's appr oach here is. I read one screaming newspaper headline recently, saying that because of a challenge on some other matter the lawyer was arguing that we were in violation of the spirit and intent of the Supreme Court ruling and so on, so could the Min ister give us an update on how she is doing here? 1229

Monday, 2 March, 1981 My first question to her in that regard is, how much Federal money is recoverable out of this $600,000 amount? The second question is really how are ·We doing in terms of obtaining qualified staff to tackle this enormous problem? MRS. PRICE: lt isn't that we are not prepared or want to get on with the business of translating, it's a very difficult task hiring anybody. There were some 34 applicants that applied. There were 16, I think, that said they would come for interviews, and out of them . only one passed, so it's going to be a slow procedure. There are no Federal funds recoverable. MR.

DOERN: I would ask the Min ister if any direct appl ication has been ma de to the Federal Government to pay for this service, because in my opinion, this should be fully recoverable from the Federal Government; I'd like to know whether any approaches have been made to the Secretary of State, whom I think is responsibile for bilingualism and biculturalism, if that's the right person, whether any di rect approach has been made; first of all for funds and possibly to assist in the provision of qual ified translators. MRS.

PRICE: We have a very close liaison with the Federal Government, however they are not going to give us any funds, but they are loaning us a senior Federal translator and he's been seconded from the Federal Government and he is arriving to give our under-staffed department some help. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, have there been some intense efforts made - in the Province of Quebec, one would assume logically that there must be a fair number of people in Quebec who might be qualified for such a job and I know that there have been attempts made, I think, at the Univ ersity of New Brunswick or something, to ship some of the work out - but have there been particular approaches made to provincial governments or segments of the country where it is well-known that people are fluent in the two official languages? MRS. PRICE: Our department has made an extensive advertising campaign in all the provinces.

We have a li aison with the Un iversity of New Brunswick. We have advertised in Quebec. I would like to tell the Member for Elmwood that since you brought the subject up tonight I have already had a volunteer. The Deputy Speaker is wondering if he could get a job translating English to French. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, without trying to reflect on you, I don't know whether you would measure up here. There are ma ny areas wher e you would measure up, but I don't know whether you could write your own ticket in this field. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Vital. MR. D.

JAMES WALDING: I wonder if the Minister would be good enough to give us a breakdown of the Other Expenditures under this heading. MRS. PRICE: We have provision for 15 regular SM Ys, including the Director, ni ne translators, a reviser, and four supp ort staff. We have a net increase of $9,000, due to general salary increases and incr ements. The other is ju st things like equi pm ent expense. The translation fees are $22 1 ,000.00. That is for the free-lance translators that we had earlier that came in from Quebec. We had three, and we had one who came in from Quebec to help us when this first came into being.

MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I was asking of the Mini ster whether she could give us a breakdown of the $284,600 that she is asking approval for to spend in the forthcoming financial year. The only figure that was given to me was some $221 ,000, which she said was spent. I assume that was an amount that was spent in the present year, unless I misu nderstood the remarks, in which case perhaps she would clarify it for me. MRS. PRICE: The fees come to $22 1 ,000; travel, $30,000; subsistence, $11 ,000.00. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, do I understand the Min ister is saying that there is some $220,000 to be paid in fees for translation? MRS. PRICE: Yes, we have people working on contract in Ottawa, Toronto and in New Brunswick, and that's for the fees to pay them under contract.

We have $2,000 for stationery and printing; $6,000 for postage, telephone and telegraph; $2,000 for computer; computer equipment, $1 ,000; computer word processing, $1 ,000; advertising and exhibits, $2 ,000; pub lications, $4,000; travelling, $3,000; miscellaneous, $30.00 that I mentioned earlier; and the $11, 000 for subs istence and it come s to $284,600.00. MR. WAL DING: Mr. Chairman, I wa sn't too interested in the rather minor amounts, it's just the amount of fees for over $200,000 that makes up the bulk of this appropriation.

I wonder if the Min ister could give us the corresponding figure for the 19 80- 81 year and perhaps tell us a little more about these contracts with people in Toronto, Montreal and New Brunswick. MRS. PRICE: The corresponding figure for 19 80-81 was $263,500.00. MR. WALDING: I understand from that figure, Mr. Chairman, that the government is cutting down on the amount of translation that it's doing? Are we di scussing under this particular head ing, the translation of Manitoba's Statutes into French? MRS. PRICE: The 19 80-81 was $202, 10 0, and this year it,s $22 1 ,000.00. MR.

WALDING : I thank the Mini ster for that clarification. The previous figure she gave me was $263,000, which would appear to be a decrease this year, but if the figure is actually $