YOL.3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 22, 1978 NO. 12

:·~arcn 22.,197o Tapo= No. 31Jl Ali-1 Tne ilouse w.et at 3: .AJ P .;•l. Hr. Speaker in tne Cnair. HR. SPt:AKZR: Order, please! Han. members I ~ sure woulJ like me to mention some visitors in the public galleries: Boyd Noel~Hayor of St. Anthony,accompanied by Councillor Las Patey an~ Wes Boyles, J:own ~·1anager 1 are in the galleries. Also from St. Regis, Fox liarbour, Placentia Bay,fifty-two students in grade Vll ana Vlll accompanied by t.1eir teachers,Hrs.dary King, Hr. Terry Tobin and ;.lr. lJes Linei1an are witn us today. un behalf of all non. members I give tnem a most sincere greeting. Hear, hear!

STATEMENTS 3Y 1-lllHSTERS Hr. Speaker, toaay we learn the sad news of tile passing of a former memoer of this legislature in the person of Colonel Jos U1 Driscoll wno died tnis morning at the DVA Pavillion • in St. Jo~•'s after what I understand has been a very lengthy illness. Colonel O'Driscoll has been an outstanding Newfoundland citizen, a great patriot, served in both World Wars, highly decorated for service to his King and country and subsenquently served the people of tnis Province as a representative for Bell Island. I believe he was tne immediate predecessor of the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Hr.

Cleary) as a representative for tnat district. In any event he did represent Bell Island and Colonel O'Driscoll was a man who earned a lot of friends and deserved most assuredly the respect of all Newfoundlanders • His contribution to this House is :mown to those who were fortunate enough to sit with him during that period and I know that han. gentlemen will wish to join with me in extendiug to the family of the late Colonel J.P. O'Driscoll our sincerest sympathy and 999 . i ~-

darcn 2..2,197o Tape .io. 3Gl d.i<.. iiiClQ.!AJ.'I: conaolences in tneir very sad loss ana a very saa loss indeed as well to tb.e people of i·lewfoundland ~ill.. SPEAKER: Hoa. memcer for LaPoile. i'lR. NEARY: l1r. Speaker, I would like on behalf of tne Opposition of the House to join with the government side in expressing deepest sympathy to the family of the late Colonel Jos 0 1 Driscoll. Personally I knew Colonel U'uriscoll very well• I think he was first elected to this legislature in 1956 as the member for rlell Island, t;1e member uf tile House of Assembly for Bell Island.

I mi[ht adcl, Sir, tnat in tnat campaign I did a little work for Colouel 0 1 Driscoll. lie bad also served before going overseas in the s:econd World War as Commanding Officer in charge of the Newfoundland i·lilitia that was stationea on Bell Island during the second World War.

As the Government House Learier indicateu, Colonel O'uriscoll was an outstanding Newfounalander, had an excellent war record serving in two World Wars and then serving his country later as a illember of the House of Assembly. he always had the interest of Hew-founcilauci. at heart and so, Sir, we join today with the other members on the opposite side of the House in extending our deepest sympathy and condolences to the family of the late Colonel Jos O'Driscoll. S OtJE liON • •·iEliBERS : Hear, hear! tlR. SPEAKER: Further Statements by Ministers. dR. HICJ:G'Iiu'i: i1r.

Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the progress being m.at.le oc. tile consolidation anC: t.1e revision of tlle statutes. The Statutes and Subordinate Legislation Act passed by I tne ilouse of Assembly last session established the office of the Legislative Counsel. Lnaer

Section .21 of ti1at act,one of the auties of .:.1e office is to prepare a revision and consolidation of the public general laws of the Province unuer the supervision of the ~iinister of Justice. Under

Section 6 of that act, LJOO

::arch 22, 1978 T:'Je 362 D'l - 1 ~ 1 ~. HICK~'I\N: I may notify the House of Assembly of the proqress beinq made on this task.

Section six also orovides for the appointr.1ent of a special committee on la.., revision - Take it as read, ~,; ll vou? ~ 1 P. HICK'1M: Thic:: ic:: mnc::t, ir:rortant. ' :'.11{. NEAKY: There goes t/"'3 ilscar 11 inner a']ain. -cf the House of Assembly to review the work of the office on the consolidation and revision of the statutes.

At the conclusion of my state- ner:t today I ·.1i 11 mo ve, :"i th the concurence of the han. the Leader of the nooosition, t~e anooint~ent of such, a committee. ~lo':J ~~r. ~neak~r, in the state- ment there is contained the different.thinss th~t the Legislative Counsel ;•1ust do in performing the job,l·lhich I will table so it can be contained in minutes and seen by all hon. membe~s. and I will then continue.

T~ese po~ers contemplate a revision of the statutes rather than a ~ere consolidation,and the difference is very imoortant, !n revision, the revisors re-1~ri te provisions in accordance with the authority qiven to do so, _In a consolidation, re9ealed provisions are replaced and new orovisions are in- ~erted and little else is done. T~is has been the oractice in the cast in this Province, In ot1er ~rovinces and in Canada, more extensive re-writing of the statutes has been undertaken upon general revisions than in ~ewfoundland.

But to under- take a re-writing requires the participation and the under- standing of the purnose of revision by the legislators. It is absolutely necessarv. tH:. HICK!IAN: This is why it is very imoortant. I am beina harassed, M~. Soearer Q h' 0h! 1001 I . I . ~

"arch 22, 1:'73 ilR.. HICK~lA'I: of the Chair. SO~E HON. MEMBERS: !'R. HICK~l.l\~1: Taae 3152 ~·.1 - 2 - and I seek the protection Oh. Oh! This is why it is very impor- tant that members of the House of ~ssembly supervise this task on this and future occasions.

In usinn the aut~oritv to revise the statutes,t~e office cf the Legislative Counsel ~ust bear in ~ird t~at it does not have the oower to c~anne the law;rather its duty is to arrange the statutes and modi­ fy the arrangement in lan9uage of the existin9 law in orC~r that it may be more accessible to the public and to the legal profession an~ more clearly expresses is t~e intent of the le!'islat"ion. (inil.udible) ' 1 u c h c r i t i cis n has C:l e en d i ~ e c ted at the style and lannuage of statute law in general.

The re­ vision and cons~idation of our statutes should reflect con­ tinued improvement in the arrangement, style, and language of the ':e• .. :found 1 and Statutes i r. order to 111ake this cri ti ci sm less applicable to our statutes. SIWE HON. ~~EtlBERS: Hear, Hear! :·:R. HICK'!M: This will be of interest tc 1on . ~entlemen. Significant progress has been nade to date in the task of revisina and consolidating t~e statutes. St:~'E HJ'!. :T'3EP.S: ~·~. :1ICK''t,;J: Hear, Hear! ~ workina consoliiation has ~e~n completed of all cur oublic general statutes and is heing k e p t u p .to d a t e .

T h e o ff i c e o f t h e L e q i s l a t i v e Co u n s e 1 has prepared a number of draft revisions for the consideration of the Special Committee and has formalized its approach to the task of revising the statutes. Specialized information pro­ cessin0 eouipment has been ordered to exoedite the revision · 1G02

~ 1 arch 22, 1!?78 Tape 362 D' ' - 3 !·1R. HICK1·1AN: and 11ill be olaced in thf office in Yay. This equipment will allow for quick revision of work as it is being prepared. r1R. IE.I\R Y: ~ ill we have autographed copies? :H~. HICK~'ll. N : It will also be used in the sessional legislative ~ork of the office and in the registry of requlations also under the authority of the office. This eaui~~ent can also be readilv made comoatible with computerized systems for the storage of legal information presently beina utilized by a number of governments in Canada.

Hear, hear~ In conjunction with the revision a~d consolidation, the office has orenared and revised the Tacle of Public Statutes and the Tahle of Local, Personal , an~ Private Acts, The crossreference to other acts has been identified and included in the consolidation files of the revision. Work is presently being done on a proposed new

Interpretation Act to come into force with the ·new revision Atl HON. ·~ HlBER: Hear, Hear! r1R. HICKtii\N: This will help simplify the lanq- u~se of our Public Statutes. The aim of the office is to crepare a revision and crnsolidation for 10an. I am alad it is an aim. 'iR. H ICK~1A~·! : F o 11 o~Ji n g that da te th e revision could be continously consolidated in a loose leaf form from year to year. Th~ result should ~e t~e Public Statutes of Newfoundland that are readily available in an up-to-date form.

It is also the hope of the office to provide eventually an uo-to-date subject index of the statutes on an annual basis as modelled on the recently completed index of the 1970 stat- utes. 1.003 , I .

c[arch 22, 1973 Tape 363 EC - 1 MR. HIC!.0L<\.l'l: This project was carried out by the Canadian LaH" Information Council as a pilot project. Nr. Speaker, I move that the following han. members be appointed as a special committee to be known as the Special Committee on Law Revision to examine and approve the drafts of consolidated and revised statutes. Under

Section 6 of the Governing Act, I, as 'linister of Justice, am ex officio Chairman of the Committee. I recommend the appointment of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition - SOI!E RON. l!E''BERS: Hear, hear! HR.. HICKl!A.l'l: - the hon. the member for the Straits of Belle Isle (~!r. 'l.oberts) - Hear, hear! ~!R. HIC"!C:~~T: - the hon. the member for St. John's East ('!r. l'arshall) - SOME RON. ~'E!'BERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Another law society. HR. mCKNAN: - and the han. the member for - AN RON. HEHBER: LaPoile. PRE~HER ~IOORI:S: Kilbride. MR. HICKMAN: Kilbride (Hr. \-!ells). S0~1E l-ION. HE!!BERS: Hear, hear!

PRmiEP. HOORES: An unbiased group. :~.F. X. P.OHE: A short comment, Sir, on that earth- shaking statement. 1•1hat can I say? For the first time in my parliamentary career I am at a loss for words, '[r. Speaker. Let me say this though, Sir, that I am glad that the government has finally made amends for the Budget it brought down last Friday. They have the people back on their side again, ~!r. Speaker, as a result of this particular statement.

Sir, I hesitate to say anything more for fear that I may arouse the people of Newfoundland and Labrador into a state of excitement over the prospects announced in this statement by the Hinister of Finance; therefore, Sir, I see it my clear duty to take mv seat forthwith. SO~ffi HO~~. EE'·rBERS: Oh, oh! 1004

!!arch 22, 19 78 Tape 363 EC - 2 HR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) It is moved and seconded as stated. Is it the pleasure of the Rouse to adopt the motion? Those in favour 'Aye', contrary '~ay', carried. Ron. members would, I am sure, like me to draw their attention to the fact that in our galleries we also have the Mayor of ~arystmm, Dr. Morrissey, accompanied by !:1:-To of his councillors, Councillor Tobin and Councillor Farrell, and also by the Town !!anager, :1r. Corcoran. Hon. members. SOHE HON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! NOTICES OF ~fOTION HR. HICKMAN: vr.

Speaker, with the unanimous consent of the House, I would like to move that the House adopt the following amendments to the Standing Orders of the House of Assembly, said amendments to be enforced provisionally for the remainder of this session of the House. Hr. Speaker, :it is lengthy. Han. gentlemen opposite have it. It sets forth the sittings of the Rouse and unless hon. gentlemen wish me to read it, it could be tabled.

For the information of the press it sets forth the times of sittings of the House immediately following the Easter recess, !{onday, 2:00 P.H. to 6:00 P.~. and 3:00 P.~•. to 11:00 P.E.; Tuesday, 2:00 P.H. to 6:00P.M. and 8:00 P.!-1. to 11:00 P.M.; Wednesday, 3:00 P.!!. to 6:00 P.H.; Thursday, 2:00P.M. to 6:00P.M. and 8:00 P.'{. to 11:00 P.M. and FriC.ay, 10:00 A.¥.. to 1:')1) 1'.~'. And tl-ten the hours allocated in estimates to the subject matter is inclu~ed t~erein. And I move, seconded by the hon. the member for LaPoile~the adoption of the rules. . I 1005

:larch 22, 1978 Tape No. 364 mr -1 NR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLii~

S) Does the han. minister have the leave of the House to present the motion? Carried. The motion entails a change in the Standing Orders so that a standing vote will be required. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Those in favour signify by standing in their place. The han.

Premier, the han. l·linister of Education, the han. the Minister of Tourism, the han. the }Iinister of Health, the han. the :1inister of Social Se·.cvices, the han. the :-tinister of Hines and Energy, the han. the Uinister of Justice, the han. the Minister of Transportation and Communications, the han. the l·linister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the han. the Hinister of Fisheries, the han. the :-!inister of Industrial Development, Mr. Harshall, Hr. Young, Dr. Twomey, Hr. \-lells, ~fr. Goudie, 1-!r. ;nndsor, llr. Cross, Hr. Patterson, llr. \-loodrow, !!r. Power, the han. Leader of the Opposition, :'Irs.

Hacisaac, Ur. Strachan, l1r. Neary, Hr. Simmons, Hr. lfuite, Mr. Lush, Dr. Kitchen, Hr. Flight, Xr. Canning, Captain Inns or, Hr. Nolan, Hr. Rideout, Mr. McNeil, Mr. Jack Winsor. MR. SPEAKER: Would those against signify by rising .I in their place. I declare the motion carried by greater than a two thirds majority. A further notice of motion. HR. NEARY: Imagine all of us agreeing on something. SO! IE HON. l·IEHBERS : Oh, oh! ORAL QUESTIONS :' >.ro .• S"":'\.~'0". (DR. COLLINS): The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. 1-l.N. ROWE: A question, Sir, directed to the han. the Premier as the Leader of the Government.

In view, Sir, of the furor and discontent caused by the announcement in the Budget recently I .. that students will now have to borrow $700 before qualifying for the provincial government's tuition programme at the university, have the government now decided to do away with the announced $700 probramme and revert back to the programme which was in effect tuOG

::arch 22, 1978 Tape ~o. 364 ~[- 2 :JR. W.N. ROHE: last year, Hr. Speaker~ MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS); The han. the Premier. PRE!1IER MOORES; Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say that first of all it was with great reluctance that the $700 limit was put on the students be·fore they borro~~ed from the Canada Student Loan plan, but however it has to be explained and I think pointed out, and I think quite accurately, that this plan now is the same as all the other Atlantic Provinces and this Province unfortunataly, as much as we would like to have, cannot have a programme more genercus than our fellow Atlantic Provinces, and we think it is a realistic approach to it.

As I say, it is not one that we wanted to do but it is one that we really had no choice but - when ~ge are going to bring things into line we brought this into line as well as other things we have in this particular Budget. HR. :v .N. RO\VE: ~JR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. A supplementary. XR. W.N. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, would not the Premier agree that it is the very reason that this Province is less well off and the people in it less well off than the other Provinces in Atlantic Canada and indeed Canada as a whole that requires substantially more government assistance to people who are trying to obtain the educations and skills represented by a university education? Would the Premier not agree with that statement of philosophy, Sir? }JR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER }!QORES: Hr. Speaker, yes,I would partially agree with that.

The situation 1 whether it is vocational school, technical school, ,qhether it is a university education, it is critical that our young people get the full benefit of an education, but as we are educating people to take

part in the life of which I think there is going to be tremendous opportunity, and I think most members of this House think there is going to be tremendous opportunity in this Province, the fact that in time they will have to pay back l.G07 • t

~la rch 22, 197 8 Tape ~o. 364 PREliiER HOORES: student loans, I suggest, Sir, in the society we live in, as unfortunate as it is, that the reality and the responsiblity of paying back what one borrows is not unique to any one class in our society . I 1G08

March 22, 19711 Tape 365 Pk- 1 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile, MR. NEARY: In view of the fact:: my question is for the Premier -in view of the fact that there is such a violent, vicious protest coming from the students, and in view of the fact that the University itself, the Board of Regents and the head, the President of the University,are complaining and bellyaching about the fact that they did not get enough to carry on their regular programmes at the University, does the Premier not now agree after all of these years of asking him in this han.

House, does the Premier not now agree that it is about time to set up a fact-finding committee to take a look at our post-secondary education system in this Province, to see if we are getting good value for our money, if we are headed in the right direction, and just take a look at the whole post-secondary education system,period, and bring out the facts? Is it not time that we did that? Should we not do it immediately? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, I am inclined to agree once again with the han. member that we do look at our post-secondary education regarding the emphasis that should be on technical and vocational and post-secondary education. ,Also I am delighted to hear the member defending so vociferously the University and its budget, and demanding that it be increased. The fact is, Sir, that I think whether it is the University or one of the government departments or what have you, I think there has been over the years fat, for the want of a better expression, built into them.

I think we have to look at exactly what the quality of education is. I think that whilst what the han. member suggested,a fact-finding group to analyze what it is is important , and I do think it is important. I also think it is very critical that pressures be put on the organizations that have this fairly substantial budget to also look at themselves, and it has to be by pressure that this happens. And I think the University in this case is a good case in point. 1G09

March 22, 1978 Tape 365 PK - 2 MR'. NOLAN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A supplementary, the member for Conception Bay South, followed by further supplementaries. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact - a question for the Premier- in view of the fact that any number of teachers and parents have now met asking and calling for resignation of the Minister of Education, and more are to meet~we understand, has the Premier received such resignation from the present Minister of Education? Has he discussed it with him?

Or is he go'ing to take that man out of the Portfolio forthwith? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, I mean the gentleman is in the wrong caucus. AN HON. MEMBER: Psychiatric stuff,is it? PREMIER MOORES: No,it is crazy. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would just like for the benefit of the han. the Premier to say that I am not defending the University's -. budget, On the contrary - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

NEARY: they are getting a 4 per cent increase, and with the dwindling enrollment at the University they should be able to give themselves generous increases over there again this year. MR. W. ROWE: It is the students we are concerned about. MR. NEARY: It is the students we are concerned about, Mr. Speaker. And there is where the violent protests are coming from, the students, and it is building up and it is going to get progressively worse. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier, if the Premier thinks that is fair for these students to commit themselves, to put themselves in debt, and AN HON.

MEMBER: In hock. 1Li0

March 22, 1978 Tape 365 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: In hock. - then come out of the University with no guarantee of a job. Can the Premier guarantee these students who are forced to borrow $700 that when they come out of University they will be able to find employment? MR. W. ROWE : In his 40,000 jobs. PREMIER MOORES: First of all, Mr. Speaker, · I think that the University in its programmes, and the borrowinp nrogramme for the people to go to university,are very much intertwined.

I think the calibre of the education, and the ability to take advantage of that education, and the cost of doing that because obviously both go together, and the hon. member cannot divorce the students from the University programme itself. As far as the guarantee of employment after anyone graduates from the University, Mr. Speaker, I can no more do that than I can guarantee employment for the hon. member or myself after we leave politics. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): I was going to recognize the hon. member for Terra Nova, unless it is a supplementary. MR. NEARY: No. MR. SPEAKER (DR.

COLLINS): The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Premier; I would like a brief

preamble to this question.

I am gravely concerned about the recent separtist talk that has been associated with this Province, and in view of the fact that Ottawa will contribute $580 million to this Province's expenditures this year, as compared to $560 million by the Province, and in view of the fact that the Premier of the Province recently stated that he was contemplating setting up a committee to look into the cost of staying into Confederation versus the cost of staying out of Confederation, I i ' • f. wonder if the Premier can tell this House whether this committee ~. ., has been established and whether there are any findings to report to the Hause?

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : First of all, Mr. Speaker, I would like to debate 1{;1.1.

March 22, 1978 Tape 365 PK - 4 Premier Moores: the $580 million and the $560 million figure, but that is at a different time. And the thing I think that - you know, what we talked about at that time, I think whether we talk about Newfoundland or whether we talk about Quebec or whether we talk about the West in Canada, lG12 ' . .

!!area 22,197o Tape No. 3b6 AH-1 PREMIER NOORES: I tnink there is a lot of independence amongst every region of Canada and I do not think that is a bad thing. And wnat I said is as a region of Canada ratner than having to come under an umbrella policy by Ottawa,irrespective of what field that was being dictated that that umbellar policy happened, but rather ~at we looked upon Newfoundland as what we were contributing to Canada as a Province that deserved a better deal from Canada.

There was no committee to talk about separation in going our own way; it was talking about getting a group of people to identify exactly what it is we are contributing to Canada because a lot of Canadians do not realize that we are supplying forty per cent of the energy to Quebec.

A lot of Canadians do not realize that we are supplying the vast amount of the 200 mile linit and the Continental Shelf whir.h today is Canada's, ;~ow what I was saying was that Newfoundland should get in a position where the rest of the people of Canada know exactly what we are contributing and not be looked upon as a people who accept handouts and are tne butt of Newiie jokes. SOME HON. ;1&\ffiERS: Hear, hear! NR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Terra Nova. ~lR.

LUSH: IIi view of the recent statement by Robert Coates , President of the National PC Party,to the effect that if any ?rovince were to leave Confederation he would not be at all ' .r surprised to see Newfoundland to be the first to leave, in view of ti-lis statement ca;.<. the Premier tell the House whether or not it is tne policy of the PC Party nationally or provincially or toget11er to promote separtist activities in Canada or at the provincial level ? PREHU.K HOOP..ES: ~oc.

Speaker, it is certainly not the policy of this government or this party in Newfoundland to promote separatism, far from it,but it is the policy of this government to make sure toat Newfoundland comes first in our own Province and certainly I •' witnin Canada. HR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. lG1.3

Haren 22,1978 Tape No. 366 Ah-2 HR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) One furtuer supplementary and then I will go on to tne han. Iilember for LaPoile. MR. LUSH: In view, }~. Speaker, of the seriousness of these remarks,has tne Premier made any public statement disassociating himself from the remarks made by Mr. Coates7 SOME HO.N. }.IEi'1tiERS: l:iear, hear! PRE~UER mORES: "tt.

Speaker, I could disassociate myself with tuat re~~~ark very easily and I am only too glad to do so 1 but I would also I suppose in other deals have to disassociate myself with the Leader of the Opposition,i1r, Joe Clarke's remark t~at the offshore oil and gas would be automatically Newfoundland's and I like that part of it. The fact is, Sir, that as far as this Province is concernea we are not advocatin~ separatism aud I do not think the PC Party of Cana<ia is, I think what !·~.

Coates said when he came here and when he saw what was i1appening in Newfoundland ancl weut back,was that ti1ere was some independent people in &ewfoundland and not just people who are supplicants of a party ln Ottawa and did what they were told. MR. LUSH: Hr. Speaker, a final suppleuentary. '11R.SPEAKER(Dr.Collins) Order, please! I nave indicated tne han. member for LaPcile. The further supplementary to the original questioner can be raised at a later stage, <1R. NEAKY: For the Premier, Sir. Could the han. the Premier tell the House if ~~.

Groom, who resigned as President of ~ewfoundland Hydro yesterday,will receive a pension from the Province, if he will be rewarded with a pension before he departE for his position overseas? PREHIER HOI,KES: I i1ave no idea, Mr. Speaker, but I certainly would doubt it. But I will find out, I will glauly pass on the information as soon as I find out. HR. NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. dR. SPEAKER: (Dr, Collins) A supplementary by the original questioner. l1R.NEARY: Could the bon. Premier tell us when the House can get the information on whether Mr.

Groom is entitled or in actual fact will receive a pension? iC14 -I I I. ' 0 t I· ' .,

Haren ZZ,l978 Tape No, 366 AH-3 l' REHIEl{ HOORES: Y~s,I can say that literally wichin two days after we reopen I can give ti~t information, after the Easter break, Mr. Groom will be leaving at the end of ~une and certainly that information will be made available very quickly. MR.W.ROWE: A supplementary, Sir, MR. SPEAKER: (Dr, COLLL.'iS: the Opposition, t1R. W. ROWE: A supplementary by the non. Leader of Sir, on the same subject,can the Premier indicate whether he has yet received a letter of re~ignation from Mr. Groom? And, Sir, I have another short supplementary when the Premier answers.

PREMIER MOORES: I said yesterday, Sir, no1 I took the gentleman at his word. MR. SDlMONS: So did Grand Falls, HR. SPEAKER: (Dr, Collins) MR.W.ROWE: Hon. Leader of the Opposition. A lot of people have taken the Premier at his word, Sir, who have lived to regret it. PRE~IIER HOORES: It is not my word, it is Mr. Groom's. HR.W.ROWE: Weli,maybe his word is good, Sir, my further and final supplementary on tile subject, Sir, is what steps has tile Preillier now taken to stop the political interference into the affairs of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro referred to by Mr.

Groom today in an interview in which he gave every inciication that this was at least one of the ma1or reasons responsible for his resignation as Chief .C:Xecutive Officer.of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro? 1G15

March 22, 1978 Tape No. 367 NM- 1 PREMIER MOORES : I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that in that context he ask the hon. member for St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen) what happened at the PUB hearings. MR. W.N. ROWE: That was not political interference. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir. UR. W.N. ROWE: No answer. MR. SIMM)NS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Premier. I want to refer him to the very serious situation that was outlined in The Daily News this morning, the very serious situation which has developed in the Bay d'Espoir area.

I have already discussed with the Minister of Mines and Energy privately concerning his proposed visit to Bay d'Espoir and he has assured me he will be down there within the next few days. But to the larger question and the one I wanted addressed to the Premier, in view of the situation which has now developed there and which is the result of a number of long standing grievances, part of which go back to the false hopes raised by the report of the Research and Productivity Council, _a report commissioned by this government I MR, nnonY: aoth of which go back to electioneering. MR.

SIMMONS: Not the report, "the report goes back to the Hermitage by-election, Mr. Speaker. The grievances which were brought on in part by the fairly hi~h-handed fashipn in which Hydro is operating in the area, the question I have for the Premier is what steps his government intend to take to rectify those very legitimate grievances and in particular to help create some job opportunities in Bay d'Espoir? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. the Premier, PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Mines and Energy can answer part of that question better than I can. I wculd like to answer the

preamble that led up to it that in - it was 1965, Sir, that the people of Bay d'Espoir were led down the garden path, as far as the promise of what was going to happen once the hydro development - SOME RON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 1\.16

March 22, 1977 Tape No, 367 NM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: Former administration. PRDHER MOORES: No, one minute - once the hydro development had taken place and equally, Sir, I think it is fair to say that I think that government and I think this government have tried since to bring major indust~, and it has to be major industry if you are going to utilize the power development that is there. The alternative obviously is the Rural Development Programme that hopefully can get the people employed in rural development opportunities that are in that particular area.

It is not an easy place because the fishery is not close at hand. The forestry is being developed. There are other industries that can be helped but, Sir, no major industry is obviously there. But I would like to point out one other thing that the han. member mentioned and that is when we talk about the story in The Daily News this morning, as far as Bay d1 Espoir is concerned, this is not something that I guess is in direct answer to the question but as the editor of the News is a policy chairman with the Opposition, and that is fine, getting back to the

article iteelf, I found it absolutely irresponsible that The Daily News this morning would have said that there is sabotage being planned, that there are terrorist activities being planned, that individuals draw lots out of a hat, Unless they can prove that sort of allegation, Sir, I say not only is The Daily News being irresponsible, but I am saying they are ind.ling a position that may not necessarily be conducive,to say the least, to good journalism. MR. SIHMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, certainly the points that the Premier has just raised latterlv are good points for debate and if I had the PREMIER MOORES : - The Daily News. MR. SIMmNS: Yes, well I will get away from The Daily News. I remind the Premier that the President of CBC is not one of our policy chairmen, notwithstanding SOHE HON, ME}ffiERS: Oh, Oh! 1C17 I.; ~

March 22, 1978 Tape No. 367 NM- 3 MR. SIMNONS: -notwithstanding, Mr. Speaker, CBC carried the same report with the same kind of detail that the Premier just referred to in its late night news last night and again this morning. AN HON. MEMBER: That is riFht. MR. SIMMONS: And the CBC management is not yet our policy chairman although we are working on them. We are working on them, Mr. Speaker. MR. W.N. ROWE: That is what everyone wants to be. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary, certainly - when we are all ready. It is a bit of an oversimplification to dig back to 1965.

I would like to get into that one,too,Jut the kind of aggravation, the kind of frustration that is now being manifested in Bay d'Espoir is not something that has been seething for twelve or thirteen years, and the Premier knows the difference. These people cannot be dismissed with some eloquence in this H~use. The fact of the matter is that they have a good number of very legitimate and recent reasons for their frustrations. And the Premier makes reference to rural development. Well I have been trying for a couple of years to get a Cabinet Minister inta the are4.

We could not get either one in last Fall for the Development Conference on Rural Development. The Premier has dismissed the idea of the fishery and my question really is this, is he at variance now with hi s Minister of Fisheries who has been giving some encouragement to the development of the fishery in the area,and with the Fisheries College which is now presently sponsoring two instructional programmes in the fishing industry in the Bay d'Espoir area? And I say to him that he may not think the fishery has a future in Bay d'Espoir, but a lot of people in Bay d'Espoir do think so. Mll. ·w . .

CARTERi He did not say that. MR. SIMMONS: We will see the tapes. We will see the tapes. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ I should point out to the hon. member that there should be little if no

preamble, and the question put. The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. :il18 I f. - t I I r I • r

March 22, 1978 Tape 368 PK - 1 Mr. Sillllllons: Mr. Speaker, I am attempting without too much success to get some answers from the Premier on what his real concerns are for Bay d'Espoir, what he intends to do as a government, as the leader for government, to help create some job' opyortunities in the area. His comments about large industry leaves me cold because this is a government that is against large industry. So what is he going to do in terms of small industry in the area? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. member would appreciate an answer in response to his earlier question, some of the points mentioned in his supplementary question as it relates to the briefs that the Concerned Citizens Committee of Bay d'Espoir presented to myself and the Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Hydro would be glad to do it if that is in order.

As the hon. member knows, and I guess most people . in the Province know,the concerned citizens of Bay d'Espoir through a committee presented a fairly lengthly petition carrying about fifteen to seventeen major points that were of concern to them · relative to Newfoundland Hydro's presence in the Bay d'Espoir area. After receiving that petition,Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro did an analysis of it, I myself personally did an analysis of it, and I have received Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro's reaction to the various points.

I have consulted my colleagues in Cabinet about the responses that Newfoundland Hydro see are the ones that should be given to the people of Bay d'Espoir 1 and I have assessed then government's position as well through my colleagues in Cabinet. Last night at 6:17, at 6:24 and at 6:43 I tried to contract one Ur. Patrick Hilc .ox, who I understand from this morning at about 8:40 is now the Chairman of the Concerned Citizens Committee. The number that he left me yesterday while the House was in session, while I was up answering a question, was a number that I responded to last evening.

There was no answer at that number, and after calling on those three separate times lC19 . ~:. . ~ I

March 22, 1978 Tape 368 PK - 2 Mr. Peckfor~ I then proceeded to call Mr. John Tremblett at about 7:12 yesterday evening, and was successfully in talking to Mr. Tremblett on the phone and asked him to convey to Mr. Wilcox that I was unable to contract him at the number that he left with my secretary yesterday afternoon. Mr.

Wilcox oroceeded this morning to send me a telegram in which he said that there. would be a meeting next week, March 28, in Bay d'Espoir at which time if there was no response from government he intended,on behalf of the Committee, I assume, to put a number of questions before the individuals there. One, for example, was whether or not they would pay their hydro bills, and another whether they would switch off the power at Bay d'Espoir from the rest of the Province:- I responded to Mr.

Wilcox's telegram of this morning indicating to him that I would try before this day was out to set up a time at which I could,as well as representatives of Newfoundland Hydro,travel to Bay d'Espoir to respond to the brief presented by the people a month ago, that the reason I had not done it to date, in the last several days, in response to telephone calls from people in Bay d'Espoir, Mr. Tremblett being one of them, was that the House of Assembly was open, and that I had a responsibility to be here to answer questions not only from the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons), but from other members relative to Newfoundland Hydro ,- Mr. Groom's resignation, for example - relative to oil and gas, and other major issues that are presently before me in my Portfolio; that I would try to get back to Mr. Wilcox before the day was out to give him such a time at which we would meet and address ourselves to the points that the Concerned Citizens Committee gave us a month ago. That is where the matter lies right now. I still intend to try to meet that commitment that I gave Mr. Wilcox in the telegram.

These responses to the points involve industrial development in Bay d'Espoir, involve all of the major concerns, and 1.C20 I ' '

~la r ch 22, 1978 Tape 368 l'K - 3 Mr. Peckford: even minor concerns that the people had at the time. It is through this vehicle that I wish to respond to the Committee, and will do so in due course, and try to give Mr. Wilcox, and through him,the people of Bay d'Espoir a definitive answer when I can meet with them and go through the whole sixteen or seventeen points that they brought up in the brief. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): One further supplementary, then I feel I should go on to other members . MR. SDIMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The name is Wilcott; he not only is the Chairman, but was from the very beginning of this exercise, the demonstratiou and so on. Mr. Tremblett you were dealing w1th 1 but he was appointed by Mr. Wilcott's Committee to speak for the Committee at that time. And the telegram was sent not this morning, but 4:01 yesterday afternoon. MR. PECKFORD: I cannot help it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: No, no, just for the record. MR. PECKFORD: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: The minister said Mr. Wilcott sent a telegram this morning. For the record he sent it at 4:01 yesterday afternoon. Mr.

Speaker, now I thank the Minister of Mines and Energy for his answer , and I was aware of most of what he had said, but it is good for the House to have the information, anc I am looking forward to the meeting which h.e has committed himself to having in Bay d'Espoir. I f f 1(;21

March 22, 1978, Tape 369, Page 1 -- apb MR . SIMMONS: was assuming, but perhaps wrongly so, that the nature of the dialogue that the minister would have with the people in Bay d'Espoir would relate to his own portfolio, but he has now indicated that he might address himself to the larger question on behalf of the.government. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, I want to get back to a supplementary to the Premier. I put to him a couple of times today the question of what in particular the government intend to do to help create job opportunities which in effect, Mr.

Speaker, are quite separate from the frustrations over Hydro which the minister is talking about. What does the government intend to do to create job opportunities in the Bay d'Espoir area? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : First of all, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that this innuendo a few moments ago that I said the fishery could not work in Bay d'Espoir was wrong. I did not say that at all.

I said it was a diffi .cul t place to prosecute the fishery from because,as even the hon. member knows, it is a large indraft of water and to get to the fishing ground is not as easy as it would be from Hermitage or Harbour Breton or any of the places on the outside. So whilst it is a possibility, it is not the ideal location for prosecuting the fishery. It is a way of earning a living if there is no other opportunity there.

The only thing, Sir, government can do for the people in Bay d'Espoir or any other district of this Province is to take the resources, whether it is lumber or fishing or whether it is tourism or whatever the case may be lC22 ! j . I

March 22, 1978, Tape 369, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: and try to maximize those resources that are there, encourage people to do those things in the areas in which they live that they can do well and encourage them in every way possible. Other than that, Sir, we cannot invent things to happen in a place where it is.not likely for them to happen. We saw a lot of that in the past; that is not going to be our policy, Sir, for the future. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova followed by the han. member for St. John's West and the han. member for Windsor - Buchans,if time perrni ts • MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, again a question to the Premier in reference to the line of thought that I was questioning the Premier on earlier. It is in refe£ence to the last sentence of the Budget Speech,"Vive la Terre Neuve Libre!", and in view of the fact that this sentence was patterened after a sentence that was used by General De Gaulle in Quebec in the 1960's, I think, and in view of the uproar that that caused in Canada, I am just wondering whether the Premier can clearly define and clearly explain the reference in this context in the Budget. Monsieur Le President! Cette phrase - Qu'est ce que c'est veut dire?

Nous desirous une reponse. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES : I am delighted that we have established the member's ability to speak rrench and General De Gaulle's senility, which all carne up in that same question 1 I understand, Sir. MR. W.N.ROWE: (Inaudible) status, PREMIER MOORES: The Minister of .Finance's ll23

March 22, 1978, Tape 369, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER MOORES: senility? Okay, we will not go into that. Quite seriously, Sir - MR. HICKMAN: Why not? Why not? PREMIER MOORES: The Minister of Fin~nce has just told me, Sir, for the sake of this House, that he is not. Now, Mr. Speaker, MR. HICKMAN: Voulez-vous promenade avec moi ce soir? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES : No, no. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, this is a serious question.

PREMIER MOORES: Yes, and the answer to the question 1 obviously, is that it was meant as it was said, in the spirit of being within Confederation in economic terms, that Newfoundland be free in its economic potential to develop those things which we have around us for the benefit of our own people and allow us to contribute to Canada rather than always having our resources taken to Ottawa and having to go with cap in hand to get them back. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon.mernber for St. John's West. DR. KITCHEN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is addressed to the Premier and it concerns a different topic. I understand that the SPCA in Newfoundland has serious financial difficulties and it is in an era of expansion. It has been subsisting to some extent on Young , . . t Canada Works Grants, and recently has approached the ~ government, particularly the Premier, for some money to enable it to continue its most it24

><arch 22, 19 7R Tape 370 F.C - 1 T)R. KITCHEN: valued work in the care of unwanted and injured animals. Hy question to the Premier is can he tell the House whether there will be any grant this year to the SPr.A for the care of unwanted and injured animals? ~'lL SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) The hon. the Premier. P!l.BUER ~!CORES : ~r. Speaker, I - A.'< HON. ~'EXBER: (Inaudible) PREl~IER HOORES: It depends how far the subject material goes. But the answer is that I am not familiar with the policy right now on how far He hope to support the SPCA.

Personally, I can say very sincerely I think it is not only a worthwhile organization, I think they are doing something that is very beneficial to this Province and to any other c>art of our society. I particularly ~Jould like, seeing that this question was on that subject, to thank publicly the Humane Society Executive Director in Ontario, ~r. Tom Hughes - MR. NEAP.Y: Hear, hear! I.

PREMIER 1100RES : - for having come and supported I • I ~lewfoundland in its position on the seal hunt - and I do not mean to go off the hon. member's question here at all, but that was a gesture that I suppose some time in the Rouse I would like the opportunity to explain why Tom Hughes has done it. But to get back to the hon. member's question, Sir, certainly I will get the information, gladly pass it on and personally I can say that the function and the responsibility these people have is something that is a very needed ingredient in our society. ~'R.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans followed by the hon. member for Stephenville. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier again. It appeared to me, Sir, that in answering a question from the hen. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir with regard to the Bay d'Espoir , -r hydro development, the Premier seemed to have inferred at least to me 1C25 • I '

March 22, 197B Tape 37() EC - 2 MR. FLIGHT: that one of the problems in Bay d'Espoir today as a result of the approach by Hydro in 1965 or the approach by the government of the day, the reason the local population may not be benefitting from that development was due in no small part to the approach the government took 1 and Hy~ro took or the old ~lel~foundland Power Commission took.

So if that indeed is contributing to the problem in Bay d'Espoir today, then my question to the Premier is what is he proposing to do to ~ke sure the same set of circumstances does not happen with regards to the Hinds Lake power development as it relates to the Huchans situation and the ability of the Central Newfoundland area, the Buchans area to take advantage of both the construction and any future benefits of that project1 ''R . ~TEARY: Hear, hear! PP.EMIER }<00RES: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, certainly I can say right now that we have never made a statement to the effect that the people of Buchans or the people of Howley or anywhere else will be the ~eneficiary of a major industry because Hinds Lake is being built. Over and above that I think what happened in Bay d'Espoir, and I t~ink it is a natural thing to have said at the time and probably well meant,was that with the construction of the hydro project there, any enerp,y intensive industry would logically locate as near that facility as possible.

And iror-ically enough, if there is ever an alUMinum reduction plant,as an exarnple,that comes to the Island part of our Province, it is logical t hat it would once again locate in that area because they have bac k -up electricity in case of failure. So there are certain things that would dictate that industry could possibly be attracted to the site of a major power development such as Bay d'Espoir. And I think, Sir, the previous administration, by the way, and I know this one did, was try to encourage people who could utilize that access to that particular facility in that particular location.

But in the case of Buchans/Howley/Deer La!<e area, as far as 1{;26 l j ;

r: clarch 22. 19 78 Tape 370 l'C - 3 PRBUER '100RES : Hinds Lake is concerned, Sir, I will say right now that this government will go on the record as saying that that is a project ~;rhich will take people for construction. It will put power in the grid. It ~•ill not establish an energy intensive industry in that particular area. First of all it is not big enough,and secondly that is the sort of false promise that can only lead people up the garden path. SOliE TION. ~!EMBERS: Oh, oh! Hit. FLIGHT: A supplementary, ~!r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) The han. member for Stephenville. HR.

FLIGHT: I asked for a supplementary, Hr. Speaker. }!R. SPEA!('~''R : The han. member for t.Jindsor - 3uchans, a supplementary. "lr.

Speaker, I am not aware that anyone in ~ewfoundl~nd has demanded of the Premier, of the administration industry in that area, But to be specific I will ask the Premier what .I; or of Hydro that the Hinds Lake development would one day fuel a major he is doing to guarantee the people of the Buchans area,who are located I' r:. eight miles away from that major project, some economic spinoff from that project, the $100 million project that will take the next three years, the three years in which we will see Buchans phasin~ out as a mining operation with nowhere to go except welfare? PPElfiETt ~!OO?J\S: Hr.

Speaker, very simply, as I said the other day, it is the wish of this administration that the people of :luchans be given an opportunity 1vherever possible to lvork on that project, but t~ere are also union problems here that the me~er is only too well alvare of, and that in the end analysis are union people working it out amongst themselves.

And, you know, other than that -what this government would like to do to get the skilled people from Buchans to do that job, we have been on record for saying it, we will try to do it, but in the end analysis it has to be union co-operation, and anything we can do to further that we will as well, Sir. 1&27

March 22, 1978, Tape 371, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker I should like to rise on a point of privilege of the House, Sir. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : A point of privilege has been raised. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, so far this session, Sir, forty-six questions have been put on the Order Paper of which I have asked forty-three, I think, of the Minister of Health. So far, Mr.

Speaker, we have not gotten any answers and I believe that is a breach of the privileges of this House, Sir, and I would like for the Minister of Health to indicate to the House when we are going to get answers to the questions that we have put on the Order Paper so far. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : First of all I do not think it is a point of privilege.

But the fact is, Sir, that we talk about abuses of the privileges of this House; the hon.member spoke for five days in the Throne Speech debate and that would mean in the run of a year if we had the same rights for every member of this House there is not enough days in the year for every other member,who has equal rights,to get the same opportunity to participa~e in debates in this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Collins): Order, please! I do not t hink there is a point of privilege to which the Chair has to give attention at this point. 1028

March 22, 1978, Tape 371, Page 2 -- apb ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : This being Private Members Day the House is debating Motion 7 and the debate was adjourned by the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. The hon •. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, we were last Wednesday in the process of considering a resolution that was put on the Order Paper by the Leader of the Opposition dealing with the whole question of Labrador development not only as it related to Gull Island or Muskrat, but as it related to development in general in Labrador, as it related to the mineral resources in Labrador, as it related to tansportation that could enhance economic development and, of course, the ongoing power developments of Labrador. I think I was saying last day, Mr.

Speaker, that we must identify first of all just what there is in Labrador so that the whole concept as mentioned by the member for St, John's West (Dr.Kitchen) last week is fully considered, is fully aired·so that we are talking about some major transportation facilities both in terms of roads - the Trans-Labrador Highway - in terms of railways 1 and then fit into that transportation network which is vital, as well as Port Labrador and water transportation, all the potential resources that we have.

And they are not even potential, they are far further along than the normal definition of potential would lead us to believe. We are talking about uranium, as I mentioned last week, we are talking about iron ore, an expansion of iron ore once the steel industry of the world gets over its present slump, and we are talking about power developments of massive, really, magnitude, 1029 . ~ ! f -l t

March 22, 1978, Tape 371, Page 3 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: the Gull Island at 1600 or 1800 megawatts, Muskrat at 600, the five rivers at 2000 to 3000 megawatts, and other rivers which lie totally in Labrador. Now there was some suggestion, Mr. Speaker, by some speaker .s that this administration had done very little to plan this whole concept of developing resources in Labrador for the benefit of the people in Labrador and for the benefit of people in the Province generally.

The allegation was implied or made directly that this administration had done very little to try to stop the trend that was started decades ago in just extracting raw resources from Labrador to be used somewhere else, either on the Island or1 more particularly and more disasterously,to be used somewhere else in Canada or the United States.

For example, witness the present situation as it relates to iron ore to some degree"and, of course, as it relates to the Upper Churchill contract where we are giving away water at ridiculously low prices over a long, long term and losing therefore $4 million to $5 million a year as it relates to how much Quebec is making off our power right now, off the 4900 megawatts, but more particularly and more realistically $700 million or $800 million a year if you look at replacement costs today, if you look at power today, for example,the Hinds Lake project coming in at around 30 mils.- so · you are talking 30 mil power today even in a hydro site like Hinds Lake or Cat Arm or Upper Salmon or the rest of the on-Island hydro sites that are possible in the future.

Anywhere in the world today outside of a nondeveloped Northern Brazil or a couple of other more underdeveloped areas of the world you are talking about power at very, very high costs. Now, Mr. Speaker, I should like to read into the record what this administration 1030

March 22, 1978, Tape 371, Page 4 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: has been doing as it relates to what the hon. member for St. John's West said;and accused us of not doing our part, 1031

~!arch 22, 1978 Tape l<o. 372 NI-l - 1 HR.. PECKFORD: and he emphasized the word'planning? Ye have been accused, Hr. Speaker, for many years, over on this side of the House, since we came into power, that we are doing too much planning and not enough action, that it was not well enough planned. It was very interesting to hear from the member for St.

John's West when he talked about that you got to have forward looking planning, that you have got to do the lead time activities, which are planning 1in order to really bring on stream something that is meaningful and will do something great for residents of a given jurisdiction. Well, Mr. Speaker, the present administration has long realized that a year-round port in Labrador as the Eastern terminus of a Trans-Labrador railway could play a key role in the economic future of Labrador and indeed the whole Province.

Our basic concept has been as follows: (one) the development of a major movement of iron ore eastway to the Labrador Coast by an electrically powered railway, thus creating the economic base for the complimentary movement of other mineral and forest products, consumer goods, passengers and motor vehicles; (Two).

Port Labrador,whose site cannot be firmly fixed without further detailed study,would be a major export point for mineral and timber products as well as the Labrador terminus of a year-round cargo, passenger and motor vehicle ferry to the Island; (Three) As an interim measare, ways would be found to extend the shipping season into the Goose Bay area for general cargo, passengers and motor vehicles, linking into Western Labrador by road.

Not only would this mean a better service for the people of Goose Bay and \~estern Labrador, but it will giv~ us priceless, practical shipping experience which could be the key to convincing an investor that a year-round shipping . I I season would be possible, provided additional investment were made in more powerful ships and ice breaking support. MR.. NEARY: Where did you get a copy of our policy? 1()32

~· !arch 22, 1978 Tape No. 372 ~m- 2 l1R. PECKFORD: Such a development, Hr. Speaker, would be of immense benefit to the Province. It would mean the end of isolation along the Goose Bay, Churchill Falls, Labrador City, Wabush route. It would mean that the natural resources of Labrador could be processed in Labrador using its abundant water power and it would mean that the two parts of the Province would be physically lUlited. However, Mr. Speaker, the barriers to such a development are vast and may be political as well as technical and economic.

Quebec presently has a great strangle hold on the mineral developments of Western Labrador as on Churchill Falls. As we all know, the fact that our iron ore presently goes through Sept Iles means that the vast amo\Ult of the economic spinoff of our iron ore deposits go to Quebec. Quebec will oppose the Trans-Labrador Railway with all its might and power. }!r. Speaker, why was Sept Iles chosen as opposed to a port in Coastal Labrador? The conventional wisdom is that Sept Iles is an ice-free port, However, nothing could be further from the truth.

Our preliminary analysis shows that at least with today's ice-breaking capability, year-round ship~ing from a carefully selected port in Coastal Labrador could be no more difficult and costly. than from Sept Iles, depending on the market one wishes to supply. Shipping through Sept Iles makes a lot of sense if the dominant market for our iron ore continues to be the steel mills of Central Canada and the US }!idwest, a =rket supplied through the seaway, the St. Lawrence Seaway.

Any move to develop Port Labrador to serve that market would be flowing against the tide of economics, not with it, and in the eyes of the investor who would have to put up several hundred millions of dollars to construct it, not justified economicalLy. If on the other hand we can develop export markets for oar iron ore in Europe,then Port Labr~dor would holrl 1033 i ,, ~· ,, I l f r::

~larch 22, 1978 Tape :.to. 372 :m - 3 HR. ?ECKFO!'J): a distinct advantage in steaming t~ over Sept lles, par ticular ly in Winter whee heavy ice in the Straits of Belle Isle forces ore carriers from Sept Iles to go Sout h, through the Cabot Strait and around the Island. Mar kets on the Eastern Seaboard of the United St ates might also be att ract ive . In such eases Por t Labrador would be s~imming with the tide of economics and not against it .

It is for this reason , that in all its discussions with potential investors, this government has eY.pressed its firm desire to tie the development of the Julienne Lake iron ore cieposits, or any other future iron ore developments, with the Trans -Labrador Highway and Port Labrador concept. wnile the iron ore market is not the best at present, a ne~ round of expansio~ is a relatively fcv years away and Labracor iro~ ore is 1n t~e running. . t I 1{·34

Haren 22,1976 Tape :-1o. 373 AH-1 HR. PECKFORD: In the meautime,a great deal of planning and study will be needed, The key factor in tnis study is ice, ice in Lake Helville, ice in Groswater Bay and the Labrador pack ice itself. I am sure that everyone knows that this Province is making great strides in building up its expertise in icebreaking and in ice studies generally. This is a major area of commitment for toe Province.

The Province's marine searcn agency, NORDC01 nas built up world known expertise in this area and has acquired commercial ice research contracts as far away as tne Beaufort Sea and the Canadian Higu Arctic. As a matter of fact,NORDCO rignt now is doing a fair amount of work in the higll Arctic now, in the Beaufort Sea at present for Dome Petroleum, Hemorial's C-CORE an ocean engineering group,are similarly at the forefront in this field. At the highly prestigious Fourth International Conference on Ports and Harbours ~nder Arctic Conditions held nere in St.

Jonn's last September,a significant number of papers siven were by persons from tne three institutions mentioned above, Two in fact addressed the very problem I am speaking about today, the development of Port Labrador. MR. NEARY; (Inaudible) has more i n formation . HR. PECKFORD: Consider, ~~. Speaker, the following list of fiela studies - would the han, member for Hr. Speaker, could I have silence while I am trying to speak? l1R. SPEAKER: The bon, minister has indicated that he •Jould like to be heard in silence and I ask toe han. member to my right will ne please ooserve the rules of toe House.

Order, please! oiR. NEARY: (Inaudible) what he is reading - .fP... PECt.:FORD: You poor man. You are "'ore to be pitied tnan blamed. You poor fellow. Ignorance is bliss, tnere is not question about that. Jean Jacques Rousseau said that many, many vears a2o. HK. SPEAKER: Order, olease! 0TrlPr, please! I indicated that the hon. minister wanted to 1C35 .t l ,,

;.larch 2.2.,1978 Tape No. 373 AH-2. MR. SPEAI<ER: be heard in silence and I ask the hon. :nember to respect the order of the Chair. HR. PECKFORD: i1r. Speaker, I was just trying to metion some of the field studies and work of direct relevance to Port Labrador tnat have already been undertaken recently in the Province. There has ueen., No. (1), done by the ocean engineering group at Memorial, they have conciucted extensive onsite studies of Lake ~ielville over a number of ice seasons with the Province's financial support. unlike the accusations made oy the hon. member for St.

John's West (Dr.Kitchen) that very little was done with financial support from the Province,&ld the hon. member for St. John's West(Dr.Kitchen), coming from t:O.e University, should be aware of this. ;Jo.

(2) Last Winter on the encouragement of my department NORUCO spent a significant a1:1ount of in-house research l!loney of further investigations of ice conditions in the critical Kigolet narrows and Western Groswater Bay area, research relating solely to Port Labrador. No.(3), the port Labrador concept was one of the main reasons benind the joint NORDCO, C-CORE ship in the ice project of 1977 in which the M. V. Artie Explorer was chartered to penetrate the Labrador pack and drift with it. This enabled the researchers on board to study pack ice and oceanographic conditions and to ground proof certain airborne experiments conducted simultaneously by a unit of the University of ~lichi~an.

(4) Even more exotic but equally useful research on the Labrador pack is beine, conducted by C-CORE using remote sensing satellites transmitting through the Shoe Cove tracking station.

(5) The Province is pusninb hard to get tne ::ational Kesearch Council's new icebreaking test facility established in St. John's ratner than in Uttawa as was the original proposal put forward uy Ottawa a nUlllber of monti1s ago. As anybody remembers the First :!inister 1 s Conference , one of tile points ma.ie by the PrelUier at that conference in talking about regional economic disparity was the fact that here was an instance of bureaucratic decision making in Ottawa which ran against the tide 1036 'I I ..

Harch 22,1978 Tape .'la. 37 3 AH-3 MR, PECKFO~n: of proper regional development in the provinces and that if Ottawa and the Prime ~linister was really serious he would try to get a handle on his bureaucracy who had iuitially determiued that this great tank for determiniug icebreakiug facilities aud so on was going 1<:37 .. - ~ I L '~ '~ I r. I,

March 22, 1978 Tape 374 PK - 1 Mr. Peckford: to go in Ottawa, the great seaport of Ottawa was suddenly going to be given another chunk of change to develop research facilities when it could be done much better at Memorial or somewhre in Newfoundland. And now of course as a result of the Premier's insistence on this at The First Ministers Conference, the federal government are reassessing this whole area, and we are lobbying very strongly today, in the last number of weeks to ensure that that kind of a research facility comes to Newfoundland.

Number six, NORDCO and C-SORE have been deeply involved in the development of the M.V. Arctic, a 28,000 ton vessel due for completion in the Fall of this year which will be the world's first ice-breaking cargo vessel. It is hoped that during the Winter and Spring of 1979 the M.V. Arctic will make a number of experimental runs into Lake Melville. Seven, the Province's new petroleum regulations provide that the oil companies conduct petroleum related research and development in the Province, Certain of this work, particularly on the Labrador pack,will no doubt be of direct relevance to Port Labrador.

I could go on, Mr. Speaker, for the list of activities which have a direct and indirect bearing on Port Labrador is almost endless. The critical thing is that we are well on our way to having the capability for year-round shipping in Port Labrador, into a port in Labrador if you will. In view of all of this I find it highly ironic to say the least, Mr. Speaker, to hear the Opposition state that this government and that Memorial,one of the top ice research centers in the world,is doing nothing on Port Labrador.

Indeed,while I cannot speak for Memorial I would think that the dedicated individuals involved must find such remarks highly insulting, to say the least, particularly when three of their colleagues recently narrowly escaped death in a helicopter crash while investigating an ice 1038 I . I t

March 22, 1978 Tape 374 PK - 2 MR. PECKFORD: problem directly relating to the Port Labrador concept, and when two of them still lie in hospital together with the helicopter pilot, but I am happy to state he is well and on the mend. AN. HON. MEMBER: That is almost - MR. PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, neither this government nor Memorial has been resting on our oars on Port Labrador. However we are dealing with a mammoth undertaking with unparalled ramifications for this Province. To turn IUnston Churchill's well known description of Churchill Falls around,Port Labrador is a grand anti-imperialistic concept. For,Mr.

Speaker, the actions of Quebec re Labrador are nothing short of imperialism, economic and political, and the Trans-Labrador Railway and Port Labrador will help free us from that kind of situation. But, Mr. Speaker, I fear we will again have to fight our own battle. The Opposition talks of the great support the Liberal Government in Ottawa gives this concept. And it is in the - DR. KITCHEN: (Inaudible). MR. PECKFORD: Just let the han. member for St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen) hold on to his seat just for one second. I have less faith in the federal government's willingness to set us free from Quebec's grasp. Mr.

Speaker, the next logical step is a massive,comprehensive study of the technical, economic social and environmental aspects of the Trans-Labrador Railway and the Port Labrador concept. That study will be expensive, particularly the ice research. However,armed with the results of such a study I am confident that we will be able to go to the investment community and prove it can be done, and that it makes economic sense. Then our talks with industrialists on the shipping of Julienne Lake iron ore and other minerals through Port Labrador, now met with an understandable skepticism,will take on a new light. But, Mr.

Speaker,in spite of the clear justification for such a 1039 • r ' . t ,..

March 22, 1978 Tape 374 PK - 3 MR. PECKFORD: study 9 0ttawa has refused our request for funding. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us not forget, let us not forget that in that resolution put on the paper by the Leader of the Opposition, he mentions in one of the Whereases, he brings in the Liberal Party, I thought he did, i . t •· 1C40

'larch 22, 1978 Taoe 375 ou - 1 i1R. PECKFQRD: some party. Yes.'' llhereas the Labrador portion of our Province contains vast hydro - electric resources together with an imme~se-treasure house of other natural resources;and

whereas at a recent _~ation­ al Convention of the Liberal Party from which the Federal Government of Canada is now formed, there •;~as unanimous sup~ort for a resolution ores en ted by the rlewfoundl and and Labrador _delegation." ~lriqht : 1r.

Speak~r. let us hear what the federal government, the great Liberal Federal Government which was willing to endorse that kind of a resolution by the ~ewfoundland Delegation to its political convention in Otta~a,did, let us see what they did: Thev re- jected fundina for this overall concept which I am sure, at least in nrinciple all oarties,not only the rarties represent­ ed in this House,all parties in i'e•,~foundland a~ree with.

On September 22, 1976 my depart- ment submitted what we felt was an adequately documented proposal to DREE for joint DREE-Province funding of a major two vear study of all aspects of the Trans-Labrador 1ailwav, Port Labrador concept. The funding ~ould h~ve come under the Province's planning subsidary agreement with DREE under which there was and remains a significant amount of unspent money.

Our Port Labrador orooosal did not meet with a favorable or ouick resnonse from JREE, Thiscoolness ~as considered ~v ~Y Cabinet colleagues on January 21, 1977 and it w~s ~ecided t~at in soite of DREE's reluctance the Province sr.ould in the 1·1ords of ti-Je Cabinet directive" press vigorousl_\i"for funding for the study. On February 17, 1977 my decart~ent, with the assistance of ~ordco,submitted a new,comprehensive eighty-five oaqe oroposal to QREE for a three p"ase $1.7 million project extending over two years with the cost to be shared 90 - 10 as agreed under the plannina subsidary agree­ ment.

Had DREE given its auick approval,phase one would have 1041.

r~arch 22, 1978 Taoe 375 f'1! I - 2 ~~ R • P E C K F (1 R 0 : been tied into the conoli- mentary rlordco- C-CORE- University of rlichigan researc', orogram last sprinq, a program which itself cost S500,0(18. But, ~r. Speaker, t~at glorious opportunity was lost. an "arch 1 , 19 77 the oro o o s a 1 "'as turned down b v f1 PEE on the unbelievably shallow qround that aooroval of such a study could not come before an overall studv of Labradoriltrans- portation problems was completed, whenever that nioht be. !!.t: HON. ~·E~'BER: That is reasonable. fiR. PECKFORD: Yes, some reasonable that is! Thus, !·l r.

Speaker, unless there is a radical chanqe of heart, 0 t t a"' a i s not o o i no to q i v e u s - as one "' o u 1 d t hi n k the" :1 o u 1 d given the resolution on the Order Pacer today bu the Leader of the Oppositron - is not qoin~ to qive us - i'dl IHHJ. '1Ei113ER: Try them aa"ain. t'r'!. PECKFORD: No d o u b t we ,., i 1 1 . D o n o t ,., o r r v , we will. He have a good proposal. Do not trv to weasel out of it. 11r. Speaker, one can tell already the resoonse n01~. If the Liberal Opposition was responsible on the other side nov!, ''r.

Speaker, they 1•1oul d get behind this kind of prooosa 1 that we have put t1dce befor .e Ottavta- r.J h, Q h! !lR. PECKFORD: Now they will weasle wo~d and the y ~ill not let me finish my speech now, I suooose . M! WHL ~~E~·'BER: ')rder, order! ~1R. PECKFOf:D: nh no, ~1r ~ Speaker, t·Je ~.;ilo~ · f noiJ . We can see the hon. member now for St.

John's West,there he is now over there in his crrner, there is the qreat bureau­ crat, the great theoretician f~om the university, one of the greatest Deputy ~inister's that this House will ever pruduce, Vo .~ere is our great philospher king over there who,,is qoinq to look over at me now in all his academic buffoonery and tell me that because we have put two qood croposals before 0ttawa, there is something wronq on our side, Sr'~'E HON. ·~ P18 E~ S: Oh, 0 h! 1042 'f.

~arch 22, 1978 Taoe 375 ::·• - 3 ' lR . PECKFORD: f"'h, no \ Thus, 'lr. Speaker, unless there i s a radical change of hea r t f"'ttawa is not oo ino to ~ ive us the great assistan ce that the Opposition would have us beli eve that thev are ~oin2 to 2~ve us . I per so nallv do not unde r - stand ~ hv rtta wa woul~ take su ch a position . O'R . KITCfffN: (T"' " Utl i " l'

l) vour oroposal. " ?. ?EC:<F0°1) : I kno~ ther2 ~ere serio r fe~eral officials highly ~ uali fie d i n the port deve loo~e nt fie l d who wer e very su ppor tive we know this, of the conceot,and yet t he whole conceot was dismissed - (in audi ble} - as ~ein n sreculative . That is why tl>e ·.·1ho1e 'l ro ~osa l •t~ as rn je cted . Remember now., ''r. •:-:!:a!:er, tii s was under . ! 1043 ; ' i j . l . I ~ I f -!

Harch 22, 1978 Tape 376 EC - 1 MR. PECKFORD: a planning subsidiary agreement, not under a transportation subsidiary agreement, not under an industrial development subsidiary agreement, not under a fisheries subsidiary agreement, but under a planning agreement - that is lvhat the planning money is for, is to conduct these kinds of studies. In any event, ~lr. Speaker, this concept is too important to let stand. ~ve will find a way to conduct the necessary studies and we v7ill use the development of our mineral resources to bring the Trans-Labrador Railway and Port Labrador into existence.

It will mean an end to the isolation of the people of Goose Bay and Hestern Labrador and an end of the isolation of the people of the Island and Labrador from each other to the mutual benefit of both. It will mean that the resources of Labrador will be able to be processed right in Labrador. Finally, it will mean that Quebec will no longer be able to dictate to us who receives the benefits from such a development in our own Province. Mr.

Speaker, we will find the way to build the Trans-Labrador Railway and Port Labrador, and when we do our victory will be all the sweeter because we will have done it all by ourselves. And, Hr. Speaker, that puts it on the record pretty clearly. ~~ny of the people in the federal government agree wholeheartedly with us. Two different proposals for the very plan that the hon. member for St. John's West (Dr.

Kitchen) wants, the very kind of plan and concept that the Leader of the Opposition wants from his resolution, the very kind of plan that the Liberal Party in Otta1•a, the government in Ottawa, ostensibly Hants from the kind of support they gave to the Ne;.rfoundland resolution at the T,iberal convention. Now I say, ~lr. STJeaker, the ball is in Otta>.ra' s court.

Let them accept the proposal put forward by the government for the very kind of thing that the Liberal Party is now advocating as the best way to build Labrador, because we agree wholeheartedly that we have taken the initiative two years ago to do exactly that and will continue to take the initiative. And if it means that we have to do it on our own it will only mean that the planning process will be lU44

Narch 22, 1978 Tape 376 EC - 2 l1R.

PECKFORD : delayed, but we ~vill find the money if it comes out of the Provincial Treasury to go ahead with this very valuable planning experience so that when, as I have already said, we have to talk to investment people, when we have to talk to potential industrialists, when we have to talk to people who 1vant to expand iron ore, ~vho r.vant to get into uranium development, who want to get into other transportation things in Labrador, they .vill have the tdnd of facts and figures, the kind of developmental plan already in place that the Opposition talks so meekly about but which this administration has taken action on.

Thank you very much, Hr. Speaker. }~. SPE&~R: (nr. Collins) The hon. member for Eagle River (vr. Strachan) SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~1R. STRACllA."J: I hope the minister will be tablinp, his speech or the extracts he was reading from. Hr. Speaker, I rise with some humility after listening to that. AN HON. HEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. STRACP.AN: Ah you shut up or I will get you later on. Hr. Speaker, I live in Labrador in 1978 in a community with no vegetables and a community with travelling and transportation means ~dth which we risk our lives every day.

Are we going to listen to what Jeremiah Sillitt,the chief elder in Nain calls, this wind, absolute wind. It reminds me of when I was young a statement in ~cBeth, the quotation which states, "Out, out brief candle. Life is but a walking shadow" - like the minister - " a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Because we are living in a Labrador of 1978, not a Labrador of dreams, of nonsense.

We are living in a Labrador in which the inroads have not been made by this Province, in which we lean not towards the Island part of the Province but towards another part, Quebec, because they are making inroads, not in a political sense, but they are doing the the 1045 - ~ -tl

:•arch 22. 1978 Tape 376 IB-3 things that this ?ro~ince will not do ; t~at is, they are makin~ inroarls in the economic sense. Let us get chis straight; it was chis government and this administration last year which dealt 1~ith Seven Islands, which !>ought its food in Seven Islands, Quebec , passed it up the railway to Schefferville, contacted a Quebec air company to fly vegetables to newfoundland nnd Labrado r governmen t stores on the Labrador Coast to supply the Lab~ador people - this government! Ancl we listen to this l~ind of 1dnd ahout what they nre going to do to the Labrador people . 1046 ( . ~ t ( l .. I i

Harch 22, 1978 Tape No. 377 J}! - l HR. STRACHAN: .We cannot get a subsidy for a Twln Otter service for the safest, fastest method of travel. He stay in Labrador and sit and wait nine days, ten days, twelve days, twenty-one days in order to try and get to a meeting or get somewhere. The transportation problems. are today and we cannot get a mere $125,?00 subsidy to provide safe travel. We risk our lives all the time andtn fact the helicopter accident he was talking about 1 I almost was in that helicopter and I do not like listening to that kind of nonsense. l'lr.

Speaker, the attitude, if the minister Yill travel in winter and it will freeze his butt off, the attitude is abominable. Quebec is making inroads. We are already getting subsidized service from Air Gava and Laurentian Airways. Quebec is already prepared to provide subsidized travel into Northern Labrador and we cannot even get a subsidy witnin this province. lie are not interested. Fine, we need plans, wonderful plans,but the people in Labrador are also looking for a certain quality of life. They are also looking for some benefits.

They are also trying to look towards the province because that is where they want to be and that is where they are going to be. But at the same time the links are all going Hestwards. Quebec is now already starting to make moves into Labrador City and Wabush,not in a political sense 1 but I will guarantee you in three or four years time there will be more Quebec workers in Labrador City and Wabush. The link when the roads go through to Ferment and \vest to ~lontreal will be towards the West and not towards the Island part of this province. It makes economic sense for us to buy in Nontreal and not in St.

John's. &il tlON. HE:-!BER: (Inaudible). HR. STRACi!AN: Listen to the fahoo from St. John's wno sits in a comfo~table house 1 centrally heated,with water and sewage. ~y wife, Sir, my wife right now carries water and empties the buckets. Do any of the other members'wives in this House do that? Empties the buckets, puts shoeshoes on to fetch water and this Yahoo from St. John's sits and talks about Labrador. Why do you not just shut up and learn a lesson or come 1047 ..

}larch 22, 1978 Tape No. 377 JH - 2 MR. STRACHAN: down with us and we will take you out. SOME HON. liDffiERS: Hear! Hear! MRS. MCISAAC: Yes, for you it is. MR. DIUN: I am not from Aberdeen. I am from St. John's. MR. J. HODDER: That is the longest speech he has ever made in the House,that one he just made. HR. S TRACHA.."' : It is this typical kind of ignorance that makes the people of Labrador wonder whether they should turn towards St. John's or turn elsewhere or be on their own. What a heap of nonsense, a heap of total nonsensel Mr.

Speaker, having said that we will try and get back to the resolution which is in front of us. I am in total agreement. I think the minister delivered a wonderful speech enunciating a policy lJhich had been enunciated here and talked about for years and years. In fact Port Labrador was first discussed in Labrador in the late 1960's,the whole concept,at that time.

I am no great lover of the previous administration, the administration before this one; in fact I was never politically oriented in Labrador towards any side 1 I had no political stripe whatsoever,3ut it was in Labrador that they started discussing that and it was Mr. Smallwood who started off the discussions toward the concept of a Port Labrador and towards trying to utilize some of the resources within Labrador. MR. NEARY: As a matter of fact,he looked at a place called Old Port Bay one time and it happens to be in the Quebec Province, Old Port Bay. HR.

STRACHAN: Our argument is basically that do we agree that we have to look elsewhere. We have to look somewhere else because it is obvious that a Port Labrador will not make sense in . an economic sense if all it is is a transportation process for passing people. It must have something, a financial bas~, an economic base on , which it can carry on. It does obviously then mean that the markets must point Eastward and not Westwards. There is no argument in that. l-Ie have discussed that many, many times and we realize that full well.

We do disagree that the iron ore should not be taken from Labrador and moved Eastwards , Our concept and our idea and what we are proposing 1(;48

March 22, 1978 Tape No. 378 RT-1 MR. STRACHAN: was to put a blueprint together for Labrador in which it was metal products, steel, which moved out of Labrador, not iron ore, to the eastern markets, but the finished product as much as possible within Labrador, not raw iron ore moving anywhere. To move iron ore eastwards is no better than moving iron ore westwards. There is no development whatsoever involved in that.

And our argument is to develop within Labrador with the power we have, to develop within Labrador these kind of products which would put us on a market and also give secondary industries in Labrador which would open us up and free us from our economic colonialism to Quebec, because we are economically colonial to Quebec in all senses of the word.

So, what we are asking then is an overall development scheme be made for all kinds of products, applying to all kinds of things in Labrador so that the finished product, as much as possible, will go out of Labrador and whether it is a Port Labrador or some other concept that is used, let it be so. But we are talking ultimately of a finished product.

I understand full well, and I should say that the five-year plan, the blueprint, and the Budget Speech was wonderful, a great deal of mention of Churchill Falls power, but I saw no mention whatsoever, no mention whatsoever of any development, five-year development of Labrador, no mention apart from the ~egaining of Churchill Falls power. In other words, Labrador was not involved, not part of it. No five-year plan for Labrador. MR. PECKFORD: There was no five-year plan for Green Bay, it was for the whole Province, including Labrador. MR.

STRACHAN: We are talking about a very large area of the Province in which there are a great deal of resources available. MR. PECKFORD: Nobody wants to send our minerals out of the Island (inaudible) 1049

March 22, 1978 Tape No. 378 RT-2 MR. STRACHAN: All being developed! At the moment what Labrador sees is right at the moment they are getting none of the benefits but they are be:!.ng told all the time the potential is there, "You have the potential". Well, people get fed up with potential because you cannot live on potential. MR. NEARY: You cannot put that in the oven for Sunday dinner. MR. STRACHAN: If you do not have vegetables, how can you have potential? AN HON. MEMBER: It is better to develop them than to give them away. MR. STRACHAN: Nobody is arguing that. What we are talking about is potential.

It is all potential.

So people see it as - it amazes me, too, when I hear about it, that we are going to develop and make a whole atmosphere of free enterprise, an atmosphere for investment in Labrador and you wonder if the atmosphere of investment and free enterprise, and people can come in and develop Labrador, and - this is the Administration who talks about the atmosphere of free enterprise or investment in Labrador, and this was the Administration which, in an economic sense, put the gun to Brinco, who took over Brinco at a cost of $160,000,000, who turned around and told us the other day, and I accept the Premier's response as a very serious response, that Gull Island cannot develop so we might as well tell Goose Bay and Happy Valley that you cannot be developed until a market is found for the power.

So we tell Happy Valley/Goose Bay people that we cannot develop Gull Island until a market is there, and yet $110,000,000 ~~as spent in 1975, already poured into development for which there was no market because if there is no market now, where was the market in 19757 People see this as money upon money upon money for which there is no development. There is no plan. It is political expediency. Our basic arguments are very simple arguments. Our basic arguments are pie in the sky, and we realize full well we have had enough of them and great pies in the sky all down the road. We realize 1050

March 22, 19 78 Tape No. 378 RT-3 MR. STRACHAN_: full well ~hat we do not want a Brinex operation ..ml.ess there are certain controls, ..ml.ess there are obvioua controls lDJpos.ed on that, and sure, we would like to stop developments if the.se develop111~ts mean wiping O'llt a people or wiping out a land. AN HON. MEMBER: Rear, hear! MR. PECKFORD: We should not b.ave bought back our water rights from Brine~, eh1 MR. STRACHAN: Just hold on. Our arguments are b~ically - MR. FLIGHT: What bene.fits have accrued to power c_o~~~panies? Row are we better ·off for it? MR.

STRACHAN: It makes it ftllllly, you know, that they buy back the water rights and then they proceed to ;sue themselves, to take thems -elves to court. ~l'IR· PECICFO!ID: Can you give me a better alternative? . MR. STRACHAN : lluy it back and sue you,rselve$? Was it necessary to buy it back and them to sue your,selves? . 1&51 ,,- 'I f

March 22, 1978 Tape 379 PK - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. STRACHAN: There is an animal,I should remind the Minister of Mines and Energy in Labrador, in the Arctic, called an ookpic, it is an Arctic owl, and the Arctic owl struts on the ice, and it is always looking around it. And you will never shoot that animal in the morning nor at night nor at dusk, but you can shoot him in bright broad daylight because he cannot see.

And I say to the minister that sometimes he reminds me of an Arctic owl, an ookpic, because sometime he will get it in bright broad daylight, and the way down is just as rough as the way up, and sometimes rougher. AN HON. MEMBER: The Minister of Municipal Affairs is a twit. SOME RON. MEMBEPS: Twirp. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, we have no argument basically in the concepts and we support the-resolution. We put together this motion. But what we are arguing is that we are arguing the realities of life.

And the realities of life are that the people in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, and the Central Labrador area have taken a terrible, terrible punishment in the last two years. Gull Island closing down immediately after the election, a major exodus; Labrador Linerboard closing down, another major exodus; the Carson sinking,through no fault of this government, the only one which was through no fault of this government. AN RON. MEMBER: The only thin~ is they cannot take credit for. MR. STRACHAN: And the people who are left now,hanging up in the air, businesses going to the wall, people wondering what is going to happen.

The people of the coast can see wonderful plans of Port Labrador, and wonderful ice studies- and we have no argument, that has to go ahead- but . they are wondering when they are going to get $125,000 to give them Twin Engine service so they can hop aboard a plane instead of freezing, and sitting in sleeping bags on a plane for three hours or four hours waiting and trying to get to -I 1u52

March 22, 1978 Tape 379 PK - 2 Mr. Strachan: get to Goose Bay. MR. NEARY: Well if we can get Dr. Bruneau to stop towing icebergs around for one year we will enough to put the Twin Otter on. MR. STRACHAN: What we are arguing about is putting together a comprehensive plan which will bring benefits "to the people. The people there are fed up watching some of the things occurring and we asked in this Hous~ for instance, in our fisheries and the Hamilton Banks, we have discussed here that in our resolution, we have discussed here that we should develop within Labrador the fisheries. It never has been developed.

Very little money has ever been put into it. There are no stages, there are no wharves, there are no fish plants. And what we are arguing about is try and develop that fishery, move in and develop that fishery, do not just leave it alone and start developing a Nordsee plan in which we are going to use vessels from elsewhere to catch the fish on the Hamilton Banks off Labrador with no benefit whatsoever to Labrador. In fact, it is the very opposite; we are catching fish which we should not be catching, by rights we should not be catching. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) all the way anyway. MR. FLIGHT: Oh look!

He understands the fisheries. MR. NEARY: The expert. MR. FLIGHT: He is an expert on the fisheries. MR. NEARY: Are you an expert on everything or what? MR. STRACHAN: The basic spawning grounds of the whole Northeast fishery is the Hamilton Banks. To prosecute that fishery is criminal, itis absolutely criminal. It should not be allowed. Similarly 1 I say, that we should not be drilling on the Hamilton Banks. And these are things that ~f we cannot do anything in the development sense, at least we can stop or prevent. We all witnessed the blow-out in the North Sea.

That was a very easy one to put out, although it took weeks,because it was above sea level. What would happen if we allowed drilling, which we do now on the Hamilton Banks, 1&53 I. I· .t ! '· I

March 22, 1978 Tape 379 PK- 3 Mr. Strachan: and there was a blow out at 1,000 feet~ We all witnessed the f act that the submarines cann ot even ho down and inspect The Carson, let alone go try and plug something on the seabed which is covered for eigbt months of tne year, and we wipe out a fishery, because there is no other way of doing it then lett.ing it blow and blow forever,and the life of some of these is fi.fteen years, twenty years. MR. N'".o.ARY: Like the Minister of ~lunicipal Affair s, bl ow and blow fo reve .r. MR. STR.4.CHAN: What we are ·worried about is that we do want development.

We are seen sometimes as being anti-development, but the kind of development we do not want is developm .ent whici:L will wipe us out totally. AN BON . HE.MBE.R: Blow it out! MR. NEARY: There are a few blow- outs over on the other side. MR . STRACHAN: Be also .. struts and frets his hour upon the stage." Mr . Speaker. I think chat what the minister bas said here is wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. He has outlined some of the ice studie ·s t .hat hav e been done. I think when I used to see scientific papers or technical papers there was a word ; . 1C54

Harch 22, 1978 Tape 380 IB-1 l·'R. STRACHAN: for a 9erson who took someone else's scientific work and published it. I think a minister ~.;ith all the resources of his department and the resources of NORDCO and the resources of the University does well to stand up and read exactly what they have been doing and give technical details of their ice studies. That is wonderful. He have no argume!lt ~dth that. He do not ~dsh to argue that. But ve are wondering however just ~-1hat is going to happen to us. \Oe are wondering what is going to happen in the next few years, the next five years.

By the time ~'e get around to all the things he is talking about, the pie in the sky things, there may be nothing left. We may have looked elsewhere or we may have been forced to look elsewhere in an economic sense. I believe in ties with the Isl~~d. There have to be stron~ ties •dth the Island in transportation; that does not occur at the moment. And we ~re looking to the Fest and not to the South to link up to this Province. And that has been done in a most insidious way. 1~ke no mistake about it, people are flying in. In fact it is funny that Quebec now· passes the Department of Tourism.

The Quebec Department of Tourism has a pamphlet which it circulates in the rest of Canada and the United States calling people to come and visit the Quebec Alps and the Quebec Alps are the Torngat Mountains located just off of my home, within this Province, totally within this Province,but they are now the Quebec Alps and Quebec is now promoting it and putting a great deal of money into the development of the Quebec Alps, the Torngat :-fountains of this Province. Insidious, Sir, insidious! And we sit back and nothing comes from here.

If we stand up and talk about Labrador I am talking about separatism, I am talking about wild schemes. ~~at I am talking about is sense. It is occurring now in 1978 and has been occurring and unless something is done the ties will be towards that way, because we are being pushed that way. If the people of Happy Valley-Goose Bay have the choice of a road right through to Labrador City and on to Hontreal, then that is the way they will go. And so lG55 . l I

March 22, 19 78 Tape 380 IB-2 l1R • STRACHA!!: it is no matter what you do in five or seven years time. There is no use putting up a barrier and saying, you cannot go that way, you are part of this Province, you cannot go that way. If it is there and economically it is better to deal there, then that is the way we will go. Aircraft landed this Winter on the ice in Rain bringing vegetables, fruits, the finest kind of fruit, the finest kinds of vegetables, the first we had seen since Christmas.

The first week of February, the first vegetables, the first fresh eggs that we had seen since Christmas landed and there it was on the ice in Nain,flown in by a Quebec company, airline company, bought in Quebec. I said it before and I still have a little slice of bread here on my desk, that it cost us sixty-four cents to buy a loaf of bread in Labrador and Goose Bay and to get it from Goase Bay to Nain it cost us ninety-two cents to transport it. From Goose Bay to Nain it cost us six cents a slice just to transport it, more than the cost of the bread. AN HON. liD1BER: How much? 1-IR..

STRAC!lh'l': Six cents a slice for the bread, ninety-two cents a loaf just for transportation costs alone on top of sixty-four cents to buy the bread in Goose Bay. Now those are the realities of life. -~ That is what people are arguing about. That is what they are talking about. That is what they are concerned about. So it is fine to have beautiful, finest kind of ideas but we have got to make a determined attempt to stop the flow before it is far too late to stop the flow. The han. member there from St. John's West (Dr.

Kitchen) in putting together this resolution to go to the policy convention, he discussed with many of us in Labrador much of the points mentioned here. Many of them have been discussed for many, 1056 l •

March 22, 1978 Tape 380 IB-3 MR. STRACHAN: many years. It is a policy because policy is the way forward. We do not see that you need a policy to give safe travel to the Labrador Coast. Surely that is not a policy. Surely it is a necessity. It is a social service that should be done. It is not a policy. I-re should not have to draft a policy paper for that .. lGS?

Haren 22,1978 Tape No. 3ol AH-1 MR. STRACHAN: Social Services should be done, that is not a policy. We should not have to draft a policy paper to give us a subsidy in order to be able to operate safely. In fact in many cases it is amazing than there are no more deaths in Labrador in flying. MR. NEARY: MR. STRACHAN: Only due to the skill of the pilots, Absvlutely. The pilots who I knu11 well and have flown with for year, and years and years, tremendous skill, the best in Canada - and recognized.

In fact Ian Massey of Goose i1as more hours in a single-engine plane, in an Otter,than anybody else in the world, bush pilot, except for one in Australia. People like that have flown ho~rs and hours, 14,000~ 15,000 hours flying in :Jush planes in which everything is a skilled judgement made by him.

These people, and we see that two years ago,for instance 7 they were getting nailed to the wall by the media, nailed to the wall by a number of groups wno do not understand flying by visual flying rules,VF~ 0 &ut what you are is relying on the s~ill of t.1e pilo~;there are no control towers, there are no wamings, t11ere are nothing, it is totally by his skill. And the amazing thing is that out of the number of landings they make in terrible conditions,•in white-of conditions, in the Fall of the year when there is ice, in the Spring of the year when there is no open water.

By the time you leave Goose Bay and three hours later when it is time to land in a community,the tide may have gone out and there is no opening anymore and you ~ave no gas left to ~et back. These people wno have kept us going, our life line who have kept us going,are asking not for a policy, t.1ey are asking now for a certain amount of social services to bring us up to some kind of level, and that is what we are arguing.

The administration opposite say that they have done this and they have don~ a great deal of planning, and a great deal of programme has gone into a policy of theirs for Labrador and the development of Labrador. They are the ones who in the last seven years have been in the position to do something to benefit us on the Labrador coast and we see very little benefits 1058 I I I - I

~iarch 22,1978 Tape No, 381 AH-2 HR.. STRACHAJ.1: So we cannot see any little benefits in the last seven years in the social seuse. Andin tne service sense,are you going to ask the people on the coast to believe they are going to see anything more in this policy statement! They regard it as wind, total, absolute wind; it comes and it goes,wuich is the normal ~wer you get from it. And I say that not in a nasty sense.

In 1971 when that administration took over I was strongly in favour of that administration, of some of the things that they were saying and in s~ of tne things ti.at they were doing; I had no political stripe at that time. In fact I never even voted in the elections, In fact one of the elections I did not even know the results nf until four rl~vs later because we had no 'communication, none whatsoever.

We got the communication, thanks to Newfoundland Telephone, Tuey did a marvelous job, an excellent job, a tremendous amount of money spent, the only ones in Labrador w11o spent the money and have upgraded the services. Otherwise as far as the rest are concerned they are as backward now as they were in the 1960's and the 1950's. So what we are asking is develop the policies you waut,~ut also let us see some of tha things happen there. Do not write it off as a small population,write it off as strange people who live strange ways,because they are not. They also need vegetable and eggs.

It makes us mad ~o~etimes to hear some of the statements, makes is utterly mad, no wonder most people from Labrador who come into St. Jehu's are glad to get back anu say we will stay out of it. They are disgusted, poisoned, fed up, talk about all kinds of different things. All they are do~g is talking about ranges of ideas because tney are so frustrated. So, i•lr. Speaker, we support in our presentation here, in tne resolution which was presented- it is a resolution,it is a policy, a definite policy, that tied together in Labrador a lot of the resources. . j I, 1059

l·larch 22, 1978 Tape No. 382 Jll - 1 MR. STRACHAN: And with that it seems within this House and I will not take up the House's time to go over it, with that there seems to be a great deal of accord that that needs to be done.

But in order to be done there should be some things done which will renew the people's faith that they do live in this province, to give them the ordinary ways of life, the ordinary standard v;ay of living and not to write them off or pass it off because they are out of sight,and if you are out of sight you are out of mind. !·!any times you argue that we are petty when every time we bring up the fact that it is Newfoundland and Labrador that it is a very clumsy way of saying things. It should be Newfoundland. This Newfoundland and Labrador is clumsy.

The argument is basically that where there is carelessness of speech there is also carelessness of mind and that where you want to drop it when you speak about it you also want to drop it when you think about it. And that is people's basic argument that they want to be reminded,and that is why there is such fervour, emotional fervour when you wipe it off the licenses and you wipe it off the birth certificates and so on. Their argument is basically that they think they have been forgotten.

It is not because of a separation sense or a feeling they want to go separate ways;it is a feeling that very little is being done. Their argument is basically that there is a rape of the resources of the area. Their argument is that much of the mineral wealth of this province is in Labrador, now in this year is in Labrador much of the mineral wealth. I do not know what the percentage is in iron ore,but iron ore in Labrador for instance produces a very high percentage of the mineral wealth of this province. I li'ould venture seventy per cent or something in that region. MR. NEARY: That is ri2:ht. NR.

STRACHAN: Yes, it is extremely high, extremely high. And also we have talked~and it is redundent to say, that we have talked about utilizing the iron ore resource, is it possible for smelting operations there? If we have excess electricity can it be done? If we need 1G<i0

Harch 22, 1978 Tape No. 382 JM - 2 MR. STRACHA.'I: coke then coke would be the only thing we would have to bring in. If we need three materials for smelting, if we need iron ore, electricity and coke then the only thing we need to bring in is coke for the smelting process. Is it possible? I am not going to get involved in a technical discussion whether it is or not,but these are the kind of things we are looking at. Can it be developed? Can we have steel mill plants' producing bars of steel? Can that be done? Can the electricity be used and developed in concert with the uranium?

If so, is it a safe industry to have? And I would be the first to agree that if it is not a safe industry we do not want it. I never was a great lover of resources which were foreign to us. I never was a great lover of oil refineries,which are totally foreign to a province like this. And similarily in Labrador and in a country like that maybe we do not want a further process in the development of uranium if it is going to mean disasterous affects on their environment. .

But what 1•e are talking about here is trying to put together a blueprint, a plan, an attack, something that will give people hope in the future but also give them some of the basic social services.And I do not say water and sewage to every little village or every little community,but give them sooe basic services. I do not regard fresh eggs or a loaf of bread or fresh carrots as being luxuries. I will not get into the kind of things that occur in the operation of the store and things like that because these are all small details. These are things that are mechanical failures within the system.

But what we are asking for then are two things- let us develop, let us plan, let us put it all together;but also at the same time in order that 1•e do not turn the people off, that in order that we do not allow them to face \Vest instead of South to this Island, in order that we stop the inroad$ being made by Quebec.

It astonished me that two months ago a very good friend of mine who has become the wildlife officer in Nain,and he therefore goes checking people in Nain, hunters who are in the barren lands,and we have them in Nain who live in snow houses~ who hunt caribou and trap fox and trap wolves,and they are in for five 1061

:·!arch 22, 1978 Tape :.o. 382 ni - 3 ~IR. STRACI!AN: days and ouc fo r cw~ and back in for another six or seven days depending on the weather and out for two or three and they love it, that is their life . And the wildlife officers duty is co check them as they come in from !-lain after being in a snow house for five days t o see if t hey have their paper license on the111 which allows them to carry a ~un and allow them to kill caribou . It is like asking a fisherman to so aro und in his oilskins with his license. i. 1062

-"' Harch 22, 19 78 Tape 383 HR . STRACHAN: Heanwhile Quebec flies into Labrador. People fly in from Quebec into Labrador and kill caribou wholesale and we cannot put a helicopter on the border and catch people like that. But we can IB-1 send a man into the community to check to see whether a hunter who has been beating his backside off for a •veek has got a piece of paper on him. ~rn.. NEARY: Do you mean to tell me they cross the border from Quebec into Newfoundland, kill our caribou and bring them back to Quebec? HR. STR}.CRAJ.\1: !IR. NEARY: Yes. The herd is a herd which knows no border.

Is the Hinister of Justice (!Ir. Hickman) listening to this? Just repeat for the benefit of the llinister of Justice (}~r. Hickman). HR. STRACF . .Ac\1 : About six weeks ago there was put a 1ri.ldlife officer in,,;hici1 is a very serious point of contention. In fact, the man almost got killed. But we tried to straighten the situation out. But he is now in Nain and he is sent by the government and this is how they feel about it. No wonder they feel bad about it. People go West, stay in snow houses and shoot caribou, hunt caribou, bring them back, go long distances, travel 160 miles.

One hundred and sixty miles is nothing. I did that in one day in January on a skidoo in low temperatures. So these people do it and that is nothing. They hunt their caribou and witness aircraft flying in from Quebec, from Schefferville, landing in this Province, killing caribou and flying back out with them,and the whole situation of flying permits in Quebec, the whole situation on the caribou herd has gone berserk. So our argument is this - ~IR. HICKl!AN: Is this because of the lack of wildlife officers? MR. STRACHAN: No.

Hhat we are arguing is that the ordinary people see the lri.ldlife officer as a government representative all of the sudden dumped into the community and his job is to stop people who do not have this little piece of paper which says he can hunt 1063

March 22, 1978 Tape 383 IB-2 HR.. STRACHAN : four caribou because he has got four members in his family,or he can hunt eight caribou because he has got eight members in his family, check his gun to see if it is loaded. Our guns are always loaded. We ahrays have shells in the breech, not in the chamber but 1ve always have shells in the breech, otherwise we would never kill a ''10lf. But it is an offense and we can be fined and have been fined. But in the meantime Quebec can come in and kill caribou, fly in illegally and have been doing it for years.

Furthermore this Province, another example of the same things that the people say, is that this Province has an embargo, we cannot hunt polar bear as much as we see them. And that is respected. Yet Quebec hunters- Inuit people, be it as it may, they are still from the Province of Quebec - can go over to Cape Chidley and come down the Labrador Coast during the Summer and obtain polar bear in Labrador to bring back to Quebec to sell at prices in excess of $2,000 to $3,000. Now this is their idea, their argument, this constant erosion - L Is the polar bear not controlled by the Federal j. Licensing Authority? MR.

STRACHAN: No, the polar bear in this Province is controlled by this House. MR. HICKHAN: Are you sure? !'ill.. STRACHAN: The law has been passed, I believe, in this House in 1970 - ~!R. HICKNAN: I am not sure. I thought the feds had such right. :!R. STRAC!JA:{: 1969-1970. But our argument is basically this, regardless of the details of it, that it is being done and done and done and that is why people feel that the Province has turned their back on them, that it cares little about them.

So what I am trying to point out here is a two pronged attack, that we need a development plan for Labrador, a big development plan with a future and our hopes and our aims and the thing 1G64

.!ar ch 22 19 78 Tape 383 IB-3 to keep people buoyed that they think there is something or know there is something down the road. :·Jhether it is 1982 or 1985 is immaterial, but that is the hope for living there. At the same time you cannot ask people to have faith in those kinds of plans if they have at the same time to suffer many of the lack of services which they are presently suffering which can only turn them off, from where they think the government and the administration is going. I support this motion. som: RON • HEMEER.S: !lear, heat"! • "R .

SPEA..TU.R: The han. lllembe-r f o-r Kil:.rid e (Hr . l,'e.lls) , HR . ~-1ELLS : Mr. Speaker, I would say at the outset that I support this motion. I think it is an excelle.nt motion and I have no hesitati.on about it. But before starting off my remarks I would say that by no means do I consider myself qualified to talk about any aspects of life in Labrador. I listened to the debate here ~ in this House as I have for the past few years. When I visit Labrador I love the country. There is no more exciting place in this ~rovince than Labrador and that applies to Labrador City, certainly to the Goose Bay area.

When you fly over it and you see the vastness of the country - the coast I am not 1C65 k -S

:• a rch 22 , E78 Ta;Je 334 11'":. :!ELLS: farliliar l·tith-! 'Jould be the first to say,but it is a r.~arvelous area. MR. STRACHAN: You should make time to come and visit us. • • P. • :·1 E L L S : Yes , I ~~ i 1 1 , no ~ u e s t i o n a b o u t it. It is to my mind a ~arvelous, marvelous part of this Province and yet everybody who lives in this Province and every~ody who sits in this House knows sonethino a~out the problems ~ecause we have heard them so well outlined and described.

But what I ~ant to talk about,and want to talk about it because in a sense I suppose what 1·•ant to do is ensure that the :;tovernnent considers the thoughts which I would like to enunciate this afternoon on power development~because cower development is a major cart of this resolution.! do not me~n there is any doubt about that. ~ow we will just look at for a moment and it says that " This han. House urges the Provincial Govern­ ment to commence immediate negotiations etc. with the Federal Government: (

a) Developing Labrador's hydro resources primarily as a source of power for the industrial development of the Province, particularly Labrador, and f 0 r the Province's domestic and commerical use" with snrnlm; po~er made available to other ~rovinces etc . And there is where we come, I think,~o the thing that of this resolution and ~articularly what consider the nub v1ant to talk about nnd that is the hydro - electric develop ment in Lahra­ dor.

Now before dealing with that specifically I would like to go back a little distance and I would like to consider the relationship between the Province of Newfoundland 1 and the Dominion of Newfoundland before Confederation~with the Province of Quebec. And our 1C66 -I •'

'1arch 22, 1978 Taoe 384 D' .' - 2 t1R. HELLS: rows and our troubles ~ith the Province of Quebec did not start ·dth the Small- wood administration and did not start with the Moores administration; they started many, many years before, i!r.

Speaker, and if •tJe do not want to iook any further back th!ln the report and the judgement of the Privv Council on the boundary auestion,we can see that right there and then. back then, there was a major row in which Quebec wanted this part of what was then the ::Jominion of l>lei·Jfoundl and, And we are very fortunate in Newfoundland,and the Province of Newfoundland and Labra­ dor • .. ;auld not be the Province of nel"lfoundland and Labra- dor if we had not won that oarticular case.

Rut the reason I mentioned it is to illustrate somethinQ that we have to face up to,that f)uebec Pants Labrador,.-s~e ~1anted Labrador fifty years ago and forty years ago, and she 'Hnts it today just as much - AN HON. ~~Et1BER: Right. ti R. ~-IE L L S : -and I think that ~uehec will use everything t~at it can or she can in order to try to get her hands on Labrador,both formally as a territory if she can manage it,but informally but effectively none the less as a storehouse of •·Jealth if she can t)et it.

There is no doubt in my mind a~out that and I think we have to ~e very, very careful. '! o ··-· 1 e t l1 s cons i de r the p o s i t i on of the Province of 0uebec and position of the Province of n e \·! f o u n d 1 an d o n ,: e v e 1 o p men t o f t h e L 01·1 e r C h u r c h i 1 1 . Yo u know,one thing I must say I think detracts from the debate in this House is trying to ascribe blame for things that \~ent on in the past. Hhat happened, happened, But what we have to ~o,and we have the duty to the ~ecole who put us here, 1C'67 ' ~ '

:·arch 22, 1978 D'l - 3 '~R. 1!ELLS: is to trv to evolve a ,.,,a:; in the future that is not going to let mistakes happen. Anybody knows that ~1hen you are dealing l~i t h matters at the time you do not see all the facts, how can you? ~~ OVJ can !,·Je 1 oak into the future? Eyesig~t is 2') - "" <-' as we all know,but we have aot to trv to be as wise as ~:o•·1 let us 1 oak at t!le :level on- ~ent of Gull Island in the Lower Churchill.

T~ere are several ootions,as I see it,open to this Province, We cah develop that,always assuming we get financing,and the oo~er can go west. ~ow I,for one member of this House and one citizen of t~is Province,"'ould be bitterly disappointed to see that haopen,because if it ~oes west all we are qoinq to get i s cas il b a c k for the sa 1 e of the p o ~~ e r . ;: o 1·: cas h i s f i n e and God knows we need it in this Province for social services for more development for everything that a ~rovince of Canada needs cash for,and we need it I suppose as badly as the worst.

But more important to me is to see that power go into Labra- dor itself,what can be used there or for what can be attract­ ed there,but also brought down into the Island part of the Province to tie the Province together with very sound econom- i c a 1 1 i n k.

And that i s why i t i s so i m nor tan t to me the Po \•! e r should be develoned in Labra~or and that the Lower Churchill be developed and brought down here and the develooment in the Province,and that I think is a good thina about this n~rticu­ lar resolution;it says " for the industrial develoonent of the Province:• for the \•Jhole, the one entity,and that can be both the Island part, Newfoundland,and the part of the Prov- ince which is Labrador". 1068 . :

Harch 22,1978 Tape No. 385 AH-1 MR. WELLS: you see,if we go the Western route just look what can happen~ At the moment uow our power is sold at the bus bar into the province of Quebec,rhey have it and people say, various people in frustration,I suppose,as much as anything else say we should turn tile switch 0 And maybe we should,and maybe it will come to that, And I tell you, Mr. Speaker, if Quebec becomes a foreign country and breaks up this Dominion of Canada and gets out of it,I think I would be one of the first up tnere to turn taat switch.

But let us assume ti1at Quebec stays; what nappens if we t;et a corridor or whatever or if we make an arrangement to t;o West with tnat power? We will always be utterly and completely in the hands of Quebec because it is Quebec then that can turn the switch if she did not like something that Newfoundland did. If Quebec,for instance, if ~e nad a corridor through Quebec~wbo is to say if ~uebec left Confederation that that corridor would remain open for our power Who is to say it, ~k. Speaker? Could Quebec suddenly turn to us, as I think it could, and say "Well we are a foreign country now. We want a new deal.

We are going to exact so much money off you for t::.e use of this corridor. 11 Jr "We are going to deny you the corridor. We are going to t\:irn the switch." What would we do then? I feel, Mr. Speaker, if we go West with any kind of an arrangement or contract or corridor with the province of Quebec we are then in Quebec's hands. It would be no good then to try and renegotiate anything with Quebec because Quebec would have another hold over us and tl~t would be the Western corridor for our power from the Lower Churchill; I think we would be caught.

Now I am sure that tne Federal Government would do its best to help us, If tt.e Federal Government was instrumental in helping ~s get a corridor ti~y would do their best to make sure that it stayed open, I do not think the~e is any doubt about that, because I think that we in the Federal Government have common cause 1069 . I :

~larch 22,1978 Tape l~a, 385 AH-2 .iR. WELLS: in some respect with the province of Quebec. But the paint is,and we nave got to recognize it, the government and the province of Quebec,and their governments not only uow but in the past fifty years or longer as far as I know,nave been very good negotiators, very tough negotiators, very hard negotiators and propelled by a remarkable self-interest. I do not blame them for that,but we in this Province have to be just as self interestea if we are going to stand up to them and if we are going to make sure that we get the benefit.

So I my view that should be the last option that we go for, the option of selling the power Westward through Quebec. Now let us look at the option of bringing the power down through Newfoundland. If my figures are correct,and I can only speak in very rough figures that I have heard spoken in tnis House of Assembly to develop Gull Island, and maybe this is the figure of a couple of years ago,I uo not know, but to develop Gull itself would take about $1 billion.

I understand that to aevelop the transmission line and tunnel down to Newfoundland would take again about $1 billion,so we are talking about $2 billion there, Now, Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that that kind of money cannot be raised on world markets without a major user of that power. In other words it has got to be an industry, whatever it is I do not know but whatever there cannot be the development of tl~t power based on domestic usage in Newfoundland