VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, MAY 31, 1982 NO. 12

May 31, 1982 The House met at 3:00 r.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Tape No. 677 SD - 1 Order, please! Before we begin proceedings I would like to welcome to the galleries today a small delegation from the Lewisporte Town Council, the Mayor 1 Glenn Snow,and the Town Engineer , Charlie Hodder-so capably represented in this House by the member for Lewisporte (Mr. Russell). SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. President of the Council . Mr. Speaker, I have a statement relating to the offshore negotiations.

Hon. members will be aware that during the week of May 10 members of our offshore negotiating team travelled to Western Canada to explain Newfoundland's proposal for settlement to interested groups in Alberta and British Columbia. During that visit they met with representatives of companies and groups who hold exploration permits in our offshore arca 1as well as with representatives of industry groups who have expressed interest in acquiring such permits.

Meetings were also held with editorial writers of major daily newspapers in Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver 1 and with officials of the provincial governments in both provinces. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report that this initiative for the government has been very successful. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear . MR. MARSHALL: In every meeting our representatives received a very positive response for our having taken the time to discuss Newfoundland's proposal frankly and openly 1 and for our willingness to be subjected to questioning on it. And I 143L,

May 31, 1982 Tape No . 677 SD - 2 MR . MARSHALL : glad to be able to report that our proposal was accepted as a very reasonable and work able solution of the offshore issue. While individual companies are not inclined to take sides publicly on the issue for obvious reasons , privately cur official s received strong expressions of support .

By way of illustration I would like to quote for the hon . members from a document passed to our officials by one group,and the quotation is as follows: "The Government of Ne\.rfoundland 's position to establish a partnership with the federal government to mana9e offshore resources" - page 2, para9raph A - "that both government s enact adequate legislation and that the joint management agency \¥ark within a set of regulations agreed upon by the t\¥0 governments is considered to be a positive response by the Government of Newfoundland that :.s identical to our concern to avoid overlapping jurisdiction and duplication of leqislation".

All industry groups strongly endorse the single agency approach to 1435

l May 31, 1982 Tape No. 678 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: resource management, which we proposed, our recognition of the need to provide a fair return to industry for their investments and our proposal to use a joint board to provide an open management regime where the rules of the game are clearly established and the opportunities for discretionary action are rendered to a minimum. The meetings with government officials were equally successful and served to reinfor0e the already strong support which we have had from the governments of Alberta and British Columbia.

Our purpose in meeting the editorial writers was to provide an explanation of our position and the details of the proposal made to the federal government during negotiations. I am pleased to report that our officials encountered a surprising knowledge of Newfoundland generally and an appreciation of our situation. Our proposal itself was considered fair and reasonable and one group was of the opinion that ours was a very generous proposition. All in all this visitation by our officials met our objectives.

The intiatives will be continued this week in the Province of Ontario with meetings with groups in Toronto and Ottawa. More meetings will be scheduled in other parts of Canada. Government views, Mr. Speaker, it vitally important that all Canadians be given an opportunity of being able to assess our proposal.

When they have been afforded this opportunity we feel that they will support the reasonableness of our stand and hopefully assist in arresting the present federal government's policy towards this Province in the matter of offshore resources,which policy can only be described as oppressive, hostile and manifestly unjust. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: 1 Lf 3 6

May 31, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. NEARY: Tape No. 678 NM - 2 The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, first of all I would like to straighten out the members of the House on the opening remarks made by the hon. gentleman, that this is a Ministerial Statement on offshore negotiations. That, Mr. Speaker, is not correct. There are no negotiations. There is a battle, there is a war going on.

It may be a Ministeral Statement, a co~unique to update members of the House on the state of the war, just like you hear communiques about the war in the Falklands, but it is certainly not a Ministerial Statement on offshore negotiations. There are no negotiations. AN HON. MEMBER: Speech. You making a Speech. MR. NEARY: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: Speech, Speech. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like for the minister to tell the House how long these visits, how long this travel by ministers and by officials is going to last? And how much it is going to cost the taxpayers of this Province? And what good will it do? Mr.

Speaker, the only sensible way to get this matter resolved is for the provincial government to withdraw their case before the Newfoundland Appeals Court - MR. BARRETT : Give it all away. MR. NEARY: MR. BARRETT: MR. NEARY: now, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: - and have the federal government­ Give it away. hold on Oh, oh~ Order, please~ And have the federal government withdraw their case before the Supreme Court and get back to the bargaining table. 11d7

May 31,198:l Tape No. 679 ah-1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.NEARY: That is the only sensible way to resolve this matter. These companies and these governments and these politicians in other parts of Canada could not care less, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact 1 the word that is coming through from the Mainland and the United States is that they ><ish that the provincial government and the federal government would resolve their differences so that they can get on with the development. That is the word that we are gettinq, Mr. Speaker. And all these trips , they do not mean a thing, Mr. Speaker.

All it is doing is making our politicians and our senior officials the best travelled people in the world. And I would like to know how long more this silly nonsense is going to keep up and how much it is going to cost the taxpayer? Mr. Speaker, while we support the government,and while the Liberal position is that we own the offshore,and we supported the resolution, it does not necessarily follow that we approve of every detail of all the methods that are used by this administration to continue the war. And I can only repeat again, Mr.

Speaker, what I have said so often; the only sensible way to settle this is through negotiation and if the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall), if they do not trust him to carry out negotiations, to outmanoeuvre, outfox, the federal people, then let them send somebody else who can do it, to get the best deal they can for Newfoundland. So, Mr. Speaker, I hope that this waste of taxpayers' money is not going to continue indefinitely , Mr. Speaker. MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Before I recognize the hon. 1438

May 31,1982 Tape No . 679 ah-2 MR .SPEAKER (Russell) : President of the Council, I would like to welcome to the gallery as well today the mayor of Rushoon, ~~ - Frank Murphy . SOHE HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR . SPEAKER: The hon . President of the Council . MR . MARSHALL: Mr . Speaker, I have another statement which I hope will elicit anothc:r positive response from the Opposition. SOME HON. MEI-1BERS : llear, hear! MR.MARSHALL: Mr . Speaker, this one relates to petroleum exploration in Western Newfoundland . SOME HON . Z.1EMBERS : !lear, hear ! PREMIER PECKFORD : MR .MARSHALL: On land . On land . On land .

Mr . Spea ker , I wish to brinrr to the attention of the hon . member s of this House that I have today designated certain areas in Western Newfoundland as provisionally open for petroleum exploration . These areas are :;Jtu\111 on the accompan"i ng map that is appended thereto , Mr . Speaker , a part or the map of Newfoundland that the hon . gentlemen there opposite would not recognize, in the ge neral vicinity of the community of St . George's, Deer Lake an0 Parson 's Pond , some 500 ,000 acres, 202,350 hectares 1 td 9

May 31, 1982 Tape 680 EC ~ 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: We will get them. MR. MARSHALL: - and they are involved in the designation both on the offshore and near shore areas of Western Newfoundland. Earlier this year, a call for nominations of Crown lands was made with nominations closing on February 15th of this year. Lands nominated in this call were subjected to a review process by various departments of the provincial and federal governments. Now, you will note the federal government, Mr. Speaker, that is in conformity with our co-operation with the federal government - PREMIER PECKFORD: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: - and what I mean by that is the Department of Fisheries and Oceans with respect to salmon streams 1 and Department of Environment and all of these things. We do not hesitate at any time to co-operate with the federal government, hut it is a one-way street, Mr. Speaker. Anyway, these were reviewed by these various departments of government to select the lands to be designated and to assure that no obvious impediments existed on these lands with regard to environmental protection, social impact, town planning, etc.

In addition, consulta- tion has taken place between officials of the Petroleum Directorate and interested parties and community groups on the West Coast to ensure that the designation process was taking place in an atmosphere of mutual understanding. Mr. Speaker, now that these lands have been designated, officials of the Petroleum Directorate will be visiting communities within the designated areas to provide information to the residents ·1 4 4 n

Hay 31, 1982 Tape 680 EC - 2 HR . MARSHALL : and to receive their comments . This public process is designed to lead to a final determination by the government of the acreage to be offered for petroleum permits . Following the public process described above , I will be calling for bids on the finally designated lands on the basis of work commitments . Successful bearers \!ill i:>c (JrantP.d an ex!lloratory permit for three years . The permit grants the company a non­ exclusive right to continue reconnaissance surveys for petroleum and the exclusive right to drill for petroleum in the permit area . Mr .

Speaker , this designation of lands in Western Newfoundland is being Gautted today in accordance with the requirements of the petroleum and natural gas re<;Ulations and it represents, Mr . Speaker, an effort by this government to attempt to see that the fullest amount of effective exploration on the West Coast of this Province has 1114 ·1

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 681 MJ - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: been done and in connection with this I would like to express the appreciation to the members for areas affected, particularly the member for St. Barbe (Mr. E. Osmond), the members for Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) and St. George's (Mr. R. Dawe), and the member for Humber Valley and the Deer Lake area, the Ministr>r of flc<~lth (Mr. W. House) for their assistance in bringing this about. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! Tbe hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, the hon. the Premier, I hope he took note of the end of the statement made by the Minister of Enerqy (Mr. w. Marshall), which smacked of a political partisanship that the hon. gentleman does not approve of. SOME !TON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY : He does not approve of that sort of thing when the federal government wants to open a fish plant, · in St. Anthony. Mr. Speaker, I do hope that the areas that arc desi~nated, that there will be success in findinq oil or gas, either onshore or offshore,in the Western part of this Province.

Since the announcement was made last yea~,the people in the area have been asking questions as to when permits would be issued and companies would actually start exploration and drilling for oil and gas,both onshore and offshore,in the Western part of this Province. I have had a number of requests from my own district, esp~cially Port aux Basques, Mr. Speaker, where the people feel that the port of Port aux Basques is ideally located and has all the facilities for a service base~ for a base to service any offshore drillin~ that may take place. PREMIER PECKFORD: And onshore.too. MR.

NEARY: And onshore· And I hope that the 1 L14 2

Nay 31, 1982 Tape No . 681 MJ - 2 MR . S. NEARY : administration will take a good hard look at Port aux Basques. MR. W. MA .RSHALL : No n rn ~ l~m . HR . NEARY : t\nd •.,rhil P. the hon . gentleman says, 'No problem', I hope, Nr . Speaker, that that rules out the last part of that statement made by the - PREMIER PECKFORD : It includes the last cart . 14R . NEARY : It includes it. Non-patisan . So , Mr . Speaker, it is a very interestinq development and we hope on this side of the House that there will be some success in discovcrlnq oil and qas in the Western part of this Province . Because up to no w, Mr .

Speaker , the people in Western Newfoundlan~,on the Southwest coast,in Central Newfoundland they do not know there is gas or oil around NewfoULdland . I believe there is only one or two people in ~lestern Newfoundland workinq on the oil rigs . SOME HON • ~tEMBERS : Oh , oh ! MR . NEARY : Th ey uo not kn ow anythin q about oil, Mr . Speaker . 14~3

May 31, 1982 Tape 682 PK - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! till .: _ _?PE~_K§~ _ _(ll~.S.:>~I 1 l _: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Am I getting to him, Mr. Speaker, or what? MR. WARREN: Yes. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: I realize the hon. gentleman is only operating on half cylinder today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR. MARSHALL: In Ministerial Statements, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is debating and ent~ring in matters that are not relevant to the statement that was made and certainly he is entering into the realm of debate. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! The procedure is,as I understand it, amember of the Opposition replying to a Ministerial Statement has approximately half the time the minister has. I must admit the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is tending to drag out his comments that probably could be debated at some other time in this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Well I do not have anything else to say about it anyway. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Before I recognize the hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.

Power) ,there is another delegation I would like to welcome to the gallery, a delegation from the Town Council of Bishop's Falls with Maror Saunders, Town Manager Mr. Hancock, and Councillor Mr. Balsam . . ,,-14 4

May 31, 1982 Tape 682 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): galleries today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Forestry , Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: I welcome you to the Hear, hear! The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I would like to update the hon. House on the forest fire situation in the Province and the organizational facilities which my department has in place for fire protection. All my colleagues a~e aware that a rash of forest fires have occurred in recent weeks. To date some thirty-nine fires have been reported ranging in size from less ~han an acre to approximately 250 acres.

It is mormal to have some fires early in the season, particularly before the new green ground cover has been established. This year, however, the number of fires have been abundantly large. All of my colleagues are also aware of the devastating damage to our forest which has been caused by the spruce budworm and the potential wood supply problems which we face with respecting to the existing forest industry in this Province. The last of the forest through the budworm has had two major implications from a forest fire perspective.

First, we cannot afford to lose any further large areas of forest through fires or any other causes. We have no flexibility left with respect to wood supply for the forest industries. Therefore it is critical that losses from forest fires be minimized. Second,the budworm has left large areas of the Province covered by 11+ 4 s

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 683 SD - l MR. POWER: dead or dying trees. These large areas of dead, dried timber present a tremendous fire hazzard and require a higher than normal degree of vigilance to ensure that fires are not started. It is therefore imperative that all people of the Province fully understand and appreciate the need to exercise extreme caution and care with fires in the forest. I would also take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to update this hon. House on my department's organization for fire protection. The Province is divided into four areas , East, Central, West and Labrador for this purpose.

In the Eastern region there are eight forest fire st~tions and they Arc located at Paddy's Pond, Salmonicr, Whitbourne, Victoria, Cape Broyle, Clarenville, Southern Bay and Winterland. In addtion ,one helicopter and one Canso water bomber are stationed at St. John's Airport to supplement ground crews. Central Newfoundland is serviced by eight fire depots. These provide services from Gambo, Gander, Lewisporte, Bishop's Falls, Milltown, Millertown, Springdale and Baie Verte.

Three Canso water bombers and two helicopters are based in Gander for this use, for use in this area,or as a back up for the Eastern and Western regions. In Western Newfoundland there are six fire stations. They are strategically located at St. George's, Pynn's Brook, Sops Arm, Woody Point, Port Saunders and Roddickton. One Canso and two helicopters are stationed in Deer Lake to serve the region. In Labrador,the department operates three fire suppression units. They are located at Wabush, Cartwright and Goose Bay.

Support is provided by one Canso water bomber, two helicopters and a float equipped Otter aircraft based in Goose Bay , and an additional water bomber can be moved from Gander to Labrador as required. ·1 L1 4 6

May 31 , 1982 'l'ape No . 683 so - 2 MR . POWER : Fire control centres are loc ated at Goose Bay, Corner Brook , Gunder and St . John 's,~nd the central fire equip~ent bank is located in Gander so that in the event of an emergency situation additional pumps and hose s, etc . can be moved quickly throughout the Province . Fire weath er forecast , fire starting indexes, movement of aircraft between re gion s and general co- ordination is provided by the control centre in St . John 's . ~tr . Spea ker, I am confident that the personnel of my department will cope ,.,ith any forest fire situation that may occur .

However, thE:! best fire protection is still fire prevention . I appeal to the public •J /~ 4 7

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 684 NM- 1 MR. POWER: to exercise care and good common sense while travelling in or near the forest. One careless match or one smouldering campfire can turn the forest into a raging inferno, and it is certainly everyone's responsibility to prevent forest fires. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. TULK: Thank you. Hear, hear~ Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I was not even going to reply to the Ministerial Statement just given by the minister. The self evident worth of passing out this information is apparent to everybody.

I thank him for the information and the concern that he is showing and I agree with him that prevention is the best protection. I would also like to congratulate him,and that is that he has finally come to realize and put in print something that we have been saying perhaps for two years, that we do have a serious wood supply problem in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: We put those questions to the minister and he just went around them. So I am glad to see that today, Mr. Speaker, he is finally realizing that indeed we do have a serious wood supply problem in Newfoundland and Labrador. MR.

CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: services. MR. HICKEY: Well said. The hon. Minister of Social Mr. Speaker, I take great pleasure in announcing to this hon. House that today marks the first day of Foster Parent Week in Newfoundland and Labrador. The week of May 31st. to June 6th. has been proclaimed by the "] 4 4 8

May 31, 1982 Tape No . 684 NM - 2 MR. HICKEY: hon. the Premier as a week in which we recognize those who are committed to helping foster children enjoy the benefits of a loving family environment. Their ongoing dedication in the role of foster parents, those wbo have so willingly opened their homes and hearts,rightfully deserve this week of recognition and appreciation . All citizens are urged to volunteer their talents and energies to support this vital role of foster parents to enable foster children to become mature, responsible and productive adults .

As Minister of Social Services I am most pleased to participate in this notable week in saying a sincere thank you to our foster parents, The slogan for this week is'Caring Is Sharing,' a phrase most appropriate to these very special people who continue to manifest the meaning of that phrase with care and commitment . Mr. Speaker, I have some buttons here and I would ask my colleagues on both sides of the House if they would be so kind as to display those buttons and show their support for such a worthy cause and to such a wonderful group of citizens . 1449

May 31, 1982 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Torngat Mountains . MR. WARREN: Tape 685 EC - 1 Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I am surprised that the minister did not see fit to give me a copy of his release. However, Mr. Speaker, I have to go on record as saying I think it is a good move on the part of this government to recognize those parents in Newfoundland and Labrador whom every one of us should be patting on the back moreso than just one week in a year. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that the foster parents in this Province not only shoull . ,,._ _, recognized from today until Priday, I think they should be recognized at all times, because those are people who have done much to take young children into their homes and look after those young children and give them a home that they otherwise would not have. And, Mr. Speaker, I think that it is not the buttons that we need today but for government to give those parents more money in order to keep those children fully clothed and fully fed. So, Mr.

Speaker, instead of the minister paying out money for buttons, I think each foster home in this Province should be given an extra incentive in finances to maintain the system that they are providing for these kids. MR. SPEAKER: Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the member for the Mr. Speaker, thequestion I have is for the Premier, and one which I have no doubt he has ant5r5 _~ated. He has received a telegram or a telex, whatever it is called, from the Town Council of St. Anthony 'II+ 5 [1

May 31, 1982 Tape 685 EC - 2 MR . ROBERTS : asking him whether the government are prepared to issue a licence to what I understand is to be a new fish company or new company set up to lease the plant at St . Anthony . I am wondering i£ he has made an answer to that and,if so, what is the answer? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I responded to the telegram from St . Anthony,around 2:00 or ~:30 this afternoon I think it was -I am not sure of the exact time but it was sometime this afternoon - in which I indicated to the council in St . Anthony , the people of St .

Anthony that we are waiting for. an answer from the federal government as it relates to our counter­ proposal, whi~h is to allow Fishery Products to continue to operate th~ plant in St . Anthony, and that the money that the federal government is going to supp ly through the Fisheries Prices Support Board to this new federal company be 1 I.J 5 ·1

May 31,1982 Tape No. 686 ah-l PREMIER PECKFORD: provided directly to Fishery Products and that we have not received a response to our counter proposal,and as soon as we do we will get back to St. Anthony and the people of St. Anthony. I also indicated in that telegram that I found it a bit unusual that suddenly St. Anthony would be bailed out when they were not willing to do the same thing for Great Harbour Deep Seafoods Limited,which is in the hon. member's district, and Flowers Cove, Sandy Cove which is in the hon. member's district.

We would like to see a more comprehensive approach by the federal government in its approach to helping fish companies around this Province. So we are still waiting for the counter-proposal to be responded to by the federal government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell): of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for the Strait The Premier is mistaken if he thinks Great Harbour Deep is in my district.

I wish it was, it is a grand communitv,hut it is in Rri~ Verte­ White Bay., And, of course in listina f;andy Cove, the Sandy Cove plant,as he ought to know,is operation~!. The prob~ems there have nothing to do with mane~ He might pay somP. concern to Anchor Point and Flowers Cove, both of whicll '1ave been told are not operating this year,and that is another company altogether. Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is whether the Premier has any indication from Fishery Products Limited that theyare prepared to operate the plant at St. Anthony if subsidized,and if so when he got that indication?

MR.SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I regret that Great Harbour Deep - I made a mistake there; geographically it is in ·1 4 52

May 31,1982 Tape No . 686 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD : the other district . MR. NEARY : J am sure you know where Newfoundland is . SOME HON .HEMBERS : Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD : We all found out where Newfou ndland was on April 6th . SOME HON . MEMBERS : !lear, hear! PREMIER PF.CKFORD : The Opposition found out where it was too. If they would like to go back to the electorate again, we will go back again and do it all over again. ~1R . NEARY : SOME liON . MEr1BERS : PREtUER PECKFORD : Yes, let us have another round . Oh , oh ! But who wants to lose a little bit of Opposition , Mr .

Speaker . llm .;evcr, J do believ e that the community of Sandy Cove is in the hon .member's district. SOJilE HON . HEMBERS : Oh,oh ! MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please ! PREHIER PECKFORD : Is the community of Sandy Cove in the ~on .member 's district? MR . ROBERTS: Yes , Sandy Cove is, Yes .

PRE t-1IER [)ECKPORD: Yes , T think iL received a $200,000 guarantee from this Province,which the federal government '"ould not supply , and which now sees another community in tha1: same constituency gettiny special treatment from the federal government . 1\le have no indication at all that the Fishery Prod~cts would not be prepared,as other companies have b~en,to actively manage the plant in St . Anthony if the proper financing was made available as is now being made available to - who would not operate a plant in Newfoundland , Mr . Speaker , if they were going to be bankrolled by the federal government? MR .

ROBERTS : Mr . Speaker . f-IR . SPE/\KER: The hon . member for the Strait o[ l3cllc Isle . 1453

May 31,1982 Tape No. 686 ah-3 MR. ROBER'I'S : Mr. Speaker, the Premier in his usual smart alec way has declined to answer the question straightforwardly ,but he has answered it~ obviously there is no such proposal. Can the Premier now tell us, Sir, whether he or 1 Lf 5 i+

May 31, 1982 Tape 687 PK - 1 MR.ROBERTS: his colleague,the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. ~organ), to his knowledge, has approached or ever had approached Fishery Products to offer them the same subsidies for St. Anthony,or the same type of subsidies for St. Anthony,that they offerred for Fishery Products at Harbour Breton? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the situation is simply this,that the bon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) can describe my actions as Smart Alecky all he likes.

For my perspective the people being Smart Alecky here is the federal government SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: - who has been asked through the ~ask Force to get involved in supporting the fi~hjnr industry of Newfoundland, and who have refused - M:R. ROBERTS: and have, PREMIER PECKFORD: - a number of proposals which can be extremely viable and are now prepared to go into St. Anthony on a six month basis. What we want from the federal governmen~, unlike the bon. member for the Strait of Belie Isle and the Minister for National Revenue (Mr.

Rompkey), the member for Grand Falls-White Bay-Labrador, we are not interested in St. Anthony from June to December 1982', we are interested in the people of St. Anthony beyond December 1982. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: We want something permanent in St. Anthony. And we are going to stand up for the people of St. Anthony, Mr. Speaker, in spite of the provincial member, in spite of the federal member,to try to get something more permanent for ·1 Lf 5 S

May 31, 1981 Tape 687 PK - 2 P IU·:M r E H P J·:C K I•'OIW: lhe pco~le of that area. We are willing to and have entertained proposals. The problem in St. Anthony is far more complex than Harbour Breton and some of the other areas. But we want to continue to entertain proposals which are not going to keep St. Anthony alive for six months with no guarantee of anything beyond that. We want to look at that whole complex situation of accessing more fish and to get into St. Anthony in a way in which we can see some viability there in the future. A six month Band-Aid treatment is not good enough for the people of St.

Anthony, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speake~. or a new question - MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: - whatever pleases Your Honour. The Premier has described it as a Band-Aid treatment. It is of course a Band-Aid treatment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: t Nhen the patient is dying of hemorrhage you treat the hemorrhage and then you worry about the cancer,as we have done at St. Anthony. But, you know, we will let the people of St. Anthony judge this.

They are perfectly capable of judging. We will let them judge for themselves and we will let them see the Premier for what he truly is,because he has been revealed on this or he has revealed himself on this as being something that I never believed any Premier of Newfoundlanct would ever be. ·1 '-• 56

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 688 NM - 1 MR. TULK: A petulant child. MR. ROBERTS: My question, Mr. Speaker, is simply this, Would the Premier be good enough to tell the House what, if any, permanent solutions he or his colleagues have put forward for the problems of St. Anthony in the four or five months since we were notified by Fishery Products? And I will tell him the answer ; the answer is not one. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: a supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: destroy they first make mad. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Premier. Thank you very much, Hear, hear!

Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Opposition, Those whom the gods would Mr. Speaker, only a week or so ago the bon. gentleman was shouting and bawling in this House about the Kirby Task Force getting involved in St. Anthony. The bon. gentleman indicated to the House that they refused to get involved and so forth, and this was the big problem,that st. Anthony was not going to operate this year.

Now would the bon. gentleman tell the House if this is the first time, the first occasion when the Kirby Task Force became involved in the fish plant operations in communities where the fish plants were closing down or had closed down? Is this the first time the Kirby Task Force has been involved? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: The proposals put before, Mr. Speaker, the Kirby Task Force, which they have dispensed with and said they are not interested in the short term, we understand what is going on with the Kirby Task Force, Mr. Speaker. 1457

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 688 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Let us not have these sort of coy little questions coming from members of the Opposition now as if they do not know the difference. We know. We do not mind saying so that members of the t.ask force have told us. I mean the whole question of St. Anthony is a lot of plants. We have put $20 million forward from our coffers, and we ar~ least able to do it, to keep plants going in the Province this year and hopefully the fish will come in and they will be viable next year and the year after.

The long and short of this was that the Kirby Task Force was interferred with. There is political interference. Mr. Kirby and his people want to get on with trying to deal with the structural problems of the fishery of Newfoundland, inshore, offshore, and so on. But they are being prevented from doing so because there is some political interference, because the hon. member for the Straits of Bell Isle (Mr. Roberts), and his colleague, Mr. Rompkey, are trying to bail themselves out of a short term problem. While we say to the people of St. Anthony - MR. ROBERTS: That is not true.

PREMIER PECKFORD: - while we say to the people of st. Anthony, hemorrhage notwithstanding, is that we have a real serious problem in St. Anthony, now let us deal with it head on. Let us not hide our heads in the sand, Mr. Speaker, let us deal with it head on. The people of St. Anthony have to work next year and the next year, and they have got to work in the fishery for the most part, so now let us sit down and try to work out accessing sufficient fish to get the plant in St. Anthony working at a fairly high level. They might not be able to employ 700 or 800 people, but if you can get a fish plant in St.

Anthony employing 300 or 400 people permanently MR. ROBERTS: That is the idea. ·14 5 H

May 31, 1982 Tape No . 688 NM - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD : - then I think you have go t a solution to the problem . But you need fish ,and the only people who can decide upon how much fish St. Anthony is going to get aee guess who, Mr . Speaker? MR . ROBERTS : The problem of St . Anthony is not fish , it is fish quality. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : A supplementary, the hon . Leader of the Opposition . MR. NEARY: ~tr . Speaker, would the hon . gentleman not agree that there is not a ~rovlnce in Canada that would not give their right arm to have the federal government 'll,5 9

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 689 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: become involved in an industry,or a fish plant,that is defunct, it is on the brink of bankruptcy,and bail it out? And is it not true that if the federal government did not come to the rescue of the St. Anthony fish plant, Fishery Products, that the plant would not open this year, that the provincial government had no plans or no proposals on the table to get this fish plant open this year? MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): PREMIER PECKFORD: None at all. Not one. The hon. the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, you know, that has been the Liberal philosophy for a long while in this Province, that is why they are over there and we are over here, Mr. S?eaker. SOME RON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear. PREMIER PECKFORD : We are not interested in short term, band aid solutions; we want something permanent for St. Anthony as we do for a lot of places in this Province. And if we are supposed to get on our hands and knees when somebody bails us out for six months ,well,that is not the philosophy that this government goes along with, Mr. Speaker. We are not interested in it, we are not interested in it at all.

Now if the federal government wants to rome along with a proposal, a decent,reasonable proposal to deal on a long term basis with not only St. Anthony but the rest of the problems we have in the fishery in Newfoundland 1 well 1 we are prepared to listen to it. Now, Mr. Speaker, the situation today is simply this 1 is that we want to see the people of St. Anthony go to work as well in the fish plant in St. Anthony 1but we have to protect the people of St. Anthony and the people of this Province and to ensure that this is more than just short term.

We have gone back, number one, to the federal qovernment and said to them, 'Look, federal government, you know, this might be initiative, you have got 1 L1 6 [l

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 689 so - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: to do something quick and all the rest of it 1and the Task Force is not really mandated to do this. We belive that the private sector still has the chief role to play in the delivery of fish processing facilities in the Province. We would rather continue to see the private sector being the vehicle. Now if government from time to time, provincial or federal, has to underpin financially some of those operations that is the way to do it , but allow the prjvate sector to actually be the vehicle.' That is number one and that is a very important considerati on.

I do not know if hon. members are concerned or not but I am, I do not want to see a Fish-Can suddenly in Newfoundland. We have a Petro-Canada now tr yinq to take over th e oil industry, we might soon have an Indo-Can trying to take over Canadian industry,and we are going to have a Fish-Can take over the fishery. Well I do not think, as one Canadian, that I want to see the fishing industry being dominated by a federal company or a federal Crown corporation. That is number one,and that is a big point. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. PREMIER PECKFORD: Number two, Mr.

Speaker, we have gone back to the federal government and indicated our concern on that philosophical point 1 if one wants to con sider it that ,and said to them, 'Okay, you have now admitted that you should have some say or at least have some influence financially into difficulties that fish processors ar e having in the Province. Thank God you finally decided that you are going to get involved. We have been involved to the tune of $20 million now for three or four months when you said you wer0 not goin g to get involved. Okay 1 so you are in~ You made a mistake, you came to the party "ll16 ·1

May 31, 1982 Tape 690 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: late, better late than never. But we still would ask you to reconsider establishing a federal company called St. Anthony Fisheries Company Limited 1 or something 1which is going to get money from the fisheries - What a convoluted way of trying to solve a problem for a fish processing plant in Newfoundland! - going to provide money from the Treasury Board of Canada through the Fisheries Prices Support Board to St.

Anthony Fisheries, which is a federal company, and it is going to be managed by somebody seconded from the Canadian Saltfish Corporation, and here we have already in ~lace in St. Anthony : 'ishery Products Limited ,;;10 ,1ave been there and know the problems and all the rest of it, know how to manage the fish business. So we have gone back to them with a counter-proposal. So we have to wait to see now what the federal government are going to say about our counter-proposal. We want to see everybody in St.

Anthony working,but we do not want them working for six months and then off for twelve and back for two and then off for eighteen; we want to see them working permanently. And we want the federal government to focus in on the real problems that the St. Anthony plant has and the company has there, and let us deal with them and try to resolve them so we have a permanent solution to this problem, and not this kind of quick bail-out that a Task Force that was not set up even to look at it is now trying to do. lf.R. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Leader of the Opposition. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. the ~R. ROBERTS: You have not done a thing towards a long term solution. Not a thing! SOl~ HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman indicate if the Kirby Task Force was involved in Grand Bank? 14G2

May 31, 1982 Tape 690 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Indeed, that is the reason that Grand Bank was re-opened, the only reason it was opened? The Kirby Task Force was involved in Gaul tois, the only reason that plant is open. So it is not the first time the Kirby Task Force or the federal govern­ ment became involved - MR. ROBERTS: There is only one reason this government did not bail out St. Anthony too, only one reason. MR. NEARY: Right on! Mr. Speaker, would the hon. gentleman please tell the House -and I ask this question, Mr.

Speaker, in all sincerity -what long-term proposals, what proposals have been made to either Fishery Products or to the Government of Canada by this administration for a long-term or permanent solution to the Fishery Products plant at St. Anthony? Mr. Speaker, also I would like to ask the hon. gentleman to tell us what evidence -he mentioned earlier that there was political interference. He was told, he said, the hon. the Premier was told by somebody on the Task Force that there was political interference with regard to the St. Anthony plant.

I think the hon. gentleman should either apologize for making that rash statement, off-the-cuff statement that he is so used to making1or put his money where his mouth is and lay the cards on the table and elaborate on that question. But I am more interested in whether or not this administration have made any long-term proposals to either Fishery Products or to the Government of Canada as a solution to the permanent problems at St. Anthony. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we have indicated in meetings with the federal government that you need more 1 l.f 6 3

May 31, 1982 Tape 690 EC - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: fish in St. Anthony, that is number one, anti WC' do not have any say over how much fish comes into St. Anthony. Under the Terms of Union that matter is a matter for the federal government. We wish we had some say in it. We have been 1 4 b 4

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 691 MJ - l PREMIER PECKFORD: arguing for the last several years that there should be joint management in the fishery like we are arquing for on the offshore oil and gas. We do not have it, perhaps some day we will. But there is a problem of fish supply in St. Anthony. There may also need to be some rationalization to the numbers of people that can be there to have a viable• operation.Y0u cannot iust allow iust volu~e! and volumes to corr.e in without any limit to the number of people who are going to be working. There could be some arguement on that.

So, we had looked at accessing additional turbot and other species of fish in the St. Anthony fish plant to make it a viable operatio~. That is one of the things that we proposed to the federal government that has to be done to try to rationalize the St. Anthony situation. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, in response to the Leader of the Opposition's, inside the House Mr. S. Neary),question as it relates to where did I get my information about political interference, I do not intend to tell the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. The Leader of the Opposition is one of the individuals in this House, Mr.

Speaker, who is most expert on using sources which he will not disclose and now he got a little bit of his own medicine. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.E. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : of Belle Isle . MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear ! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Strait If my collca<;uc would allow , another question,since we are enabling the Premier to expose himself to the electorate on this situation at St. Anthony. I wonder if he would care to tell us -he mentioned the turbot proposal, ,which th• .) truth is cwmc from the /\ssistwnt Deputy Minister of Fisheries in this administration, Mr.

Andrews, a very fine and hel?ful public servant - would the Premier care to tell ·11 .. 6 5

May 31, 1982 Tape ~O - 691 M.J - 2 MR . E. ROBERTS: the Ilouse ,,,hat response there was made to that(

a) by the Government of Canada and(

b) by Fishery Products? MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr . Speaker , if the hon . the member for Strait of Belle Isle (Mr . Roberts) '"an ·ts that kind of detailed ,,specific ans1ver that was given at that time, I will be glad to provide it for him at another time. All I am indicating to the member for the Strait of Belle Isle , to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. s. lleary) and to this hon . House is that the nrohlems of St . Anthony are not qoi ng to qo away '"itb a little Band-Aid like the federal government are trying to do to try to bail out the hon . member .

And there is no political reason '"hY we are .kicking up a fuss on St . Anthony . SOME HON . t·1EMBERS : Oh , oh ! PREMIER PECKFORD: We have already helped fish plants in many Liberal districts i n the Province a.nd would do it in St . Anthony just as quick , just as quick because it has special - MR . ROBERTS: St . Anthony 's the only plant you did not do it 1"itb . 'PRE~IIER PECKFORD: No, it is not the only one . There is three or four . You are 111ronq _ Vnu RrP wrnng . There are three o:r four that \.:re turned do1"n. MR . ROBERTS: .'l'urbot. Fishery products. SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR .

SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR . SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Where else? Where else did you turn down the Oh, oh! Order , pl ease ! ~lr . Speaker . Oh, oh! Order, plea se! I am aettino under the skin of the ·1 4 66

May 311 1982 Tape No. 691 MJ' -3 PREMIER PECKFORD: memhpr of the Strait of Belle Isle (~. E. Roberts), I think that is tt,·the normally absent member for the Strait of Belle Isle - SOME BON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: -\V'ho come to the House now when his district is in trouble. Ho, ho, ho to the member for t.he Strait of Belle Isle. HP. has been found ou~ on this one, Mr. Speaker. MR. E. ROBERTS: That from the most expensive Premier in the country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear 1 hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh 1 now the dirt, now the dirt. Now, Mr. Speaker, now we see the dirt.

You notice that, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) !?RE~IIER PECKFORD: Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, first of all it had to do \oJith St. l\nthony fish plant, then :it had to do with the business of it being a Liberal riding and \"e did not support any other fish plants in Liberal ridings,and ·We answered that. Now \"hat is he on now, Mr. Speaker ? He \,.rants to personally attack me now for being the most expensive Premier in Canada. Well, I 11-+ & 7

May 31,1982 Tape No. 692 ah-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: will tell you right now, shame on the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts), shame that he does not attend the llousc of Assembly more often. He is too busy downtown, Mr. Speaker, to defend his constituents. He is away most of the time,and when something comes up on the Strait of Belle Isle then he turns up. Oh,I tell the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) , that is too bad, Mr. Speaker. But I will tell the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts) or the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) or any of the members opposite that we want a permanent solution to St. Anthony and that only can be done when both governments attend meetings, not one level of government. SOME IION.MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.ROBERTS: A supplementary for the Premier . Of course he is annoying me.Whenever he tells me the untruths that he is has been telling here in the House today that does annoy me. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

ROBERTS: And they may say, "Oh", and they may say "Ah", but the record, of course, will speak for itself. Now I would say to the Premier is he aware­ he refused to answer the question so I will have to put it another way -is he aware that the turbot proposal was (

a) approved by the Government of Canada and,secondly, turned down by Fishery Products ? And if he is aware of that - if he is not it does not matter -and the second question grows out of it in any event, could he tell the House what other permanent solutions he has put forward ? "14 68

May 31 ,1982 Tape No . 692 ah -2 MR .ROBERTS : Fn~ all the words in rhetoric about St . Anthony ,wher e apparently the policy of his administration is at best, Mr . Spea~er, to doom it to be a short -term seasonal plant with significantly less employment than it now has, that is what the Premi er has been say.ing throughout this speech., c:n 111 o hA teJ 1 us what other proposals if any he has put forward for all the plethora of'words and balderdash he has giv en us here this afternoon? MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr .

Speaker, let me deal with- first of all,the hon . the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Hr .Roberts) has made a very serious accusation and that is that I have been saying thin gs which are untrue . SOME BON .1-iEMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORD : Hea .r, hear ! N0 \11, I gues!i' one of those things which I have been saying is untrue 14 a8

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 693 so - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: is that we have not helped fish plants in Liberal ridings, I would take it from the way the hon. the member for the Straits of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) spoke SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. PREMIER PECKFORD: Now we have helped the fish plant in Salvage~ I do not think that is in one of the districts on this side of the House, I think that is the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), that is in a Liberal riding, Mr. Speaker. we have helped it. So that is not untrue.

We have helped the Lake Group by $5 million equity long before the federal government,which embarrassed the federal government before Christmas, to come in and help the Lake Group. That is why the federal government came in and helped the Lake Group because we had them embarrassed . And Main Brook happens to be one of the areas in which they are involved that is in a Liberal riding,and at the time we helped them 1 Grand Bank and Marystown-or Grand Bank was also a Liberal riding at the time we helped them. SOME !ION. MEMBERS: l!ear, hear. PREMIER PECKFORD: Look what we did, Mr. Speaker.

That is why, of course, now Grand Bank is on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, no question about that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. PREMIER PECKFORD: How about Burnt Island, Mr. Speaker? Is Burnt Island - I think it is in the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary), inside the House, district, Burnt Island. AN HON. MEMBER: Inhouse. PREMIER PECKFORD: The inhouse Leader as opposed to the - and anyway, Mr. Speaker, and then we have Sandy Cove - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SIMMS: Watch your image now. PREMIER PECKFORD: - which is in a Liberal riding, and then we have Chance Cove,which is in a Liberal riding.

So, Mr. Speaker, to say that I am standing up here in this 1470

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 693 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: hon. House giving untruths, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) better put up or shut up because I am not going to allow him to accuse me of saying untruths when I ca~ prove him wrong,when he is in the House, and even when he is not in the House we will get the information to him. Now, Mr. Speaker, the situation on St. Anthony is this: As the hon. member knows 1 and as I know ,the situatio~ in St. Anthony is a difficult one to solve for a permanent,viable operation. Now that is number one.

As I have said all along in this Question Period, it is a very difficult one and is not <loing to bo solvcJ, Mr. Spc~kcr, if the federal government through the Task Force suddenly sits down with the operator in that community without the provincial government - MR. ROBERTS : PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. ROBERTS: PREMIER PECKFORD: door, Mr. Speaker - MR. ROBERTS: PREMIER PECKFORD: Did the Province not know about it? - without the provincial - Did the government not know about it? We found out through the back 'rhe Province knew about it. Oh, no I You cannot get off the hook on that one, Mr. Speaker.

A meeting was held by the federal government with Fishery Products Limited, we were not invited to that meeting. MR. ROBERTS: The deputy minister of Fisheries was there . PREMIER PECKFORD: qe was there to early meetings but the final meeting 1 he was not there when the decision- MR. ROBERTS: I was not there either. PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, I see. You are a minister too, are you? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh . 1 4 7 i

May 31 , 1982 Tape No . 693 SD - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: You are a minister too? Because you are not there somebody from the Government of Newfoundland has not got to be there ,is that it? You do not speak for Netvfoundland . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Right on . Right on . PREMIER PECKFORD : so, Mr. Speaker, if the Task Force is going to deal with the problems of St. Anthony, the federal government are , they have to deal through the provincial government . MR . ROBERTS : PREMIER PECKFORD: MR . ROBERTS · No,they do not . Yes , they do . It is the Government of canada as much as anything .

We are part of Canada , are we not? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please ! SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh . PRE MIER PECKFORD: Yes , the federal government and the provincial government - SOME HON. MEM BER S: Hear, hear I PREMIER PECKFORD: - the federal government and the provincial government .Anrl it will not be done otherwise , Mr . Speaker. we will stand up and be counted that we have a say in the fishery too . 147/

May 31, 1982 Tape 694 PK - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: Why is the Town Council of St. Anthony wiring us today? MR. ROBERTS: Because the Premier threatened to stop federal assistance. PREMIER PECKFORD: Because we hav , a processor's licencG! SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: Because we have a processor's licence, Mr. Speaker, which we are not going to issue unless and until we can see some way to see that St. Anthony remains viable beyond December 1982. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: Now we are getting there. Now the bile is coming out of the Premier, Sir. Now we are seeing it. Would the Premier confirm t~ the House,because he was speakinq in the heat of emotior, MR. TULK: As he usually does. MR. ROBERTS: - and I ~ant him to bring the light of reason to bear on it for once, would he confirm to the House the policy of his administration was that which he just enunicated, which,I believe I quote him correctly, was "We will not issue a processor's licencf' to St. Anthony until we are convinced that a permanent solution is in place"? Now I may have misquoted him. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! AN HON. MEMBER: You did. MR. ROBERTS: I did. ~·:ho says, I did? Who says, I did? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ROBERTS: Now I believe that I quoted him correctly. I may have misquoted him. It is sometimes 1ll 7 3

May 31 , 1982 Tape 694 PK - 2 MR . ROBERTS : very hard to follow the Premier, because I can only understand English . I cannot understand the Premier at times . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! MR. ROBERTS: Mr . Speaker, it is no good his giving you the goggle-eyed look . Mr .Speaker , would he confirm - SOME HON . !>\EMBERS: MR. BARRETT: MR . ROBERTS : Oh , oh ! Show ing your oQrr ignorance . The hon . gentleman for St . John 's west (Mr . Barrett) has greased his way into be a parliamentary secretary . I \.,.ish him well in greasing his \.,.ay all the way in . SOME liON . 11EMBERS: Oh , oh ! MR .

SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : MR ROBERTS : MR . SPEAKER : l-1 R. ROBERTS : Order , please! Order , please! t-1r. Speaker . Order , please ! Mr. Speaker , if the hon . gentleman opposite would not interrupt me, I would finish my question , if I may . MR . SPE1\Kim : I feel that the hon . member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr . Roberts) in the heat of the moment may have used a phrase which may be a little unparliamentary and attributes motives to the hon. member for St . John 's West . MR. ROBERTS : If I have said something unparliam- en tary of course I wi thdra \.,.. MR. NEARY : That is true . He greased his way . HR .

ROBERTS : Is 'greased ' ! was that the offending word? 1\N HON . MEMBER : It does not matter if it was. MR. ROBERTS : I kno~1 the speaker do es not have to ans\ver . But, I mean , are we going to be co ndem ne d - 1 4 i L;

May 31 , 1982 SOME RON . MF.MRF.RS : MR . ROBERTS : offence is? SOME RON . MEMBERS : MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. ROBERTS : is unparliamentary. MR . SPEAKER : Tape 694 Pk - 3 oh, oh! How do I know what my Oh, oh! Order, please ! The Speaker can tell us what Order, please: I would ask the hon . member for the Strait of Belle Isle to get on with his question . MR . ROBERTS : l\11 rl<Jht , Mr. Spcnker . We are not to kno w n ow wh at we are condemned for . !4R . BARRETT : you know . MR.

ROBERTS : (Inaudible f any longer , I will withdraw h~~tever I have been condemned for, All I want to know is what any peasanb down in the Magistrate's Court gets to know , why I have been condemned before I am Taken out and shot . Now would the Premier confirm this was the question, tote . Speaker, before the hon . gentleman {or St . ,To hn ' '> ··•es t (Mr. Barrett) slithered his way into the discretion !1ere - would the hon . Premier nlease confirm ,.,hether his statement is the policy or not? ~IR. BARRETT : MR . ROBERTS : MR . SPEAKER : PREMIEFLEZCKFORD : (Inaudible) . Hy name taq . The hon . l'ro mier . Mr .

Speaker , when dece nt question s are asked,decent answers will be given . MR . BAIRD : Right on . MR . ROBERTS : there will be decent questions . MR . SPEAKER : MR . ROBERTS : guilcy of . 1/~ 7 5 When we have a decent Premier Order, please ! Any indecency the Premier is

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 695 NM - 1 MR. SPE~KER (Russell): The hon. member for Bellevue. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh ~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I think I have about thirty seconds. I wanted to ask the Minister of Health (Mr. House), Mr. Speaker, relating to last week's budget, I wanted to ask the Minister of Health a question regarding the future of the cottage hospital at Markland. Could the minister inform the House how many jobs will be lost in the transition from the status of a cottage hospital to a clinic at Markland, how many jobs will be lost?

And will alternate employment be found for these people? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the announcement was made that the cottage hospital at Markland would be phased down 1 I think in September 1as an in-patient facility. The facility right now has only about forty per cent occupancy and that is basically for reasons that should be treated in chronic care rather than in an ar.nt:e care hospital.

There are fifty-five people working there and as far as I can gather about forty will be out of a job, but we are working right now on a process, of course the regular process, with the collective bargaining process, and the redundancy clause in government policy and trying to ease whatever pain will come out of that. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the minister then will the clinic that we are talking about, this out-patient clinic, will that be a new facility or will the cottage hospital at Markland be renovated to produce the out-patient clinic, or will it be a new structure? MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The hon. Minister of Health. He does not know. 1 l1 7 6

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 695 NM - 2 MR. HOUSE: Mr . Speaker, the tentative plans - incidentally , ~tr . Speaker, we want to bear in mind, the members should bear in mind, and the public in that area, that this has been ~alked about for a long period of time . One of the first meetings I had in 1979 MR . N£ARY: That is not what you told the committee during the election. MR . HOUSE: - in 1979 we met with the committee, as a matter of fact the same committee chairman I think is there no\v , on two occasions with myself and a nu.mber of times with officials, pointing out that our objective was to phase down ~1e hospital to a clinic status, and the 1477

May 31, 1982 Tape 696 EC - 1 MR. HOUSE: objective was to construct a new clinic something similar to the kind that \ve have on some of the Labrador Coast and, of course, in Flower's Cove, that nature. That is the objective. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, the minister has just finished saying that this decision has been ongoing for awhile.

The members of the Markland Cottage Hospital Improvement Committee informed me that last Spring, on April 6th, as a matter of fact, four days before a by­ election in that area, the Premier told the committee out there that his government is opposed to closing or downgrading cottage hospitals, including the Markland hospital, and the Premier also gave a commitment at that time to that committee that his officials would research and introduce proposals regarding a new outpatient clinic in addition to maintaining the cottage hospital at Markland.

Let me ask the minister,then, is the minister suggesting that the Hospital Improvement Committee at Markland are telling lies to me or is the Premier telling lies? PREMIER PECKFORD: to that question . MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: r~r. Speaker, I .,.Jill respond The hon. the Premier. In meeting that I held with the hospital people at that time, I indicated to them that there would not be both a hostel and a clinic at Markland but that we were going to phase down the hostel and replace it over time with a new clinic. There was not to be both a separate building called 11f 7 8

May 31, 1982 Tape 696 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: a clinic and an ongoing cottage hostel. So I think the hon. member has his facts sort of muddled. The situation that we debated at length with the people from Markland and the area was that over time the cottage hospital would be phased out, that it was quite unreasonable to expect that over any length of time you could continue to have a clinic operating in .1/.f 7 9

'"' May 31, 1982, Tape 697, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: that old building and that a new clinic would have to be built to have the kind of medical facilities there that were still needed, but that the hospital would be phased down and a new building for a clinic would be built. That is what I told the people at the hospital at Markland at the time, that is what they understood.

And I have had meetings with them since that time, and discussions with them since that time, and there was never any indication that there would be both, but that the hospital as it now existed would be phased down, that that building may be unsuitable for a clinic ongoing for any length of time, and that a new building would have to be built for a clinic for the people of that area. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): One final supplementary and the time will have elapsed for the Question Period. The bon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I just referred to a meeting that was held with the Premier last April 6th. Now, on March 30th. of this year, six days before the provincial election, the Premier attended a public meeting in Norman's Cove, and following that public meeting the Premier met with the Improvement Committee again, the Hospital Improvement Committee, and the Premier told the Committee at that time - the Premier stated emphatically that the outpatients clinic will be constructed during this term of his office, his administration.

He further stated that the clinic would be constructed adjoining the Markland Hospital - adjoining, in addition to. ']/.f 8 [l

May 31, 1982, Tape 697, Page 2 -- apb MR. CALLAN: So is the Premier saying then that the Committee are telling lies? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I can answer that. I do not remember meeting formally with the Committee.

There might have been a few members of the Committee present at that rally, but the situation was simply that I indicated to the people there that it was the government's intention if we were re-elected that the cottage hospital would be phased down, there would be no longer a cottage hospital there, and a new building next to where - and that is where they want it, by the way, that is where the people wanted it. They wanted the new building to be next to where the old building is now - and that it would be a clinic.

Now, I do not know how the hon. member interprets adjoining, but it was clear to everybody that the cottage hospital was to be downgraded or phased out and there would be a new building built which would be the building for the clinic at Markland,to serve that area. That is clearly understood by everybody out there and it is only the hon. member who is confused, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Natural Products Marketing Act, 1973". 1 4 a ·1

May 31, 1982, Tape 697, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: MR . SPEAKER(Russell)~ PREtHER PECKFORD : Mr . Speaker. The hon. the Premier . Mr. Speaker, I give no ·tice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Provide For The Appointment Of Parliamentary Secretaries To Ministers Of The <.:rown" . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear' ANS\VERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD : Yes , Mr. Speaker, a questions asked by the hon . the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) , to ask the 148 ?

May 31, 1 98 2, Tap e 698 , Page 1 -- apb PRE MIER PEC RFORD : Minister of Gove rnm ental Affa irs to lay upon the Table of the House the fo:lo wing information : The number of appointments made in 1979, '80 and '81 covering executive assistants , parliamentary assistants and public relations specialists. Answer : None . Second question from the member for Eagle River : To ask the hon . the Minister for Governmental Affairs to lay upon the Table of the Ho us e the following information : The cost of ren ovations to the mi nister's office in 1979 , '8 0, '81. AnS1fler: None . I table those answers , Mr . Speaker .

MS . VERGE : Mr . Spea ker . MR . SPEAKER(Rus sell) : The hon . the Minister of Education . MS . Vr:RGE : ----- - This is in reply to question No . 52, Order Paper dated May 13 , a question of the hon . the member for Terra Nova (Mr . Lu sh) asking the cost of renovations to the minister's of£ices in the fiscal year 1979, '80 and '81. The reply is that there ~"ere nc · such renovations and the cost was none . ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion , the following bills we re read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow : A bill, "1\n 1\ct To /\mend The Department Of Labour And Manpower Act" . (Bill No . 20) .

A bill, "An 1\ct To hmend The Livestock (Coir.munity Sales) Act". (Bill No. 30) . 148 3

May 31, 1982, Tape 698, Page 2 -- apb A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Fur Farms 1\ct" . (Bill No. 31) . A bill , "An Act To Amend The Development Areas(Lands) Act" . (Bill No . 11) . A bill, "1\n Act To Amend The Newfoundland Geographical Names Board Act, 1974" . (Bill No. 12) . A bill, "An Act To Amend The Deferred Pensions Act" . (Bill No. 33) . A bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Finance Act". (Bill No . 9) . 1484

May 31 , 1982, rape 699, Page 1 -- apb On motion , the following bills were rea~ a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorr~w: A bill, "An Act To ./\mend The Wild Life Act" . (Bill No . 4). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Grand Falls Hospital (Management) Act, 1961" . (Bill No . 13) . A bill, "An Act To Amend The Cancer And Research Foundation Act, 1971" . (Bill No . 6) . A bill, "An Act TO Amend The Prov incial Court Act, 1974 ". (Bill No . 19) . A bill, "An Act To ./\mend The Law Scoiety Act , 1977" . (Bill No . 41) . A bill, "An Act To Remove Anomalie s And Errors In The Statute Law" . (Bill No .38) .

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Jury Act" . (Bill No . 34) . A bill , "1\n 1\ct To Amend The Parliamentary CollUDissioner(Ombudsman) 1\ct ". (Bill No . 39) . A bill , "An Act TO Amend The Automobile In surance Act And The Highway Traffic Act To Increase The Minimum Liability Under Motor Vehicle Liability Policies ". (Bill No . 40) . A bill, "An Act 'l'o ./\mend The Registration Of Deeds Act ". (Bill No . 32) . A bill, "1\n 1\ct To Amend The Contributory Negligence Act , The Married Women 's Property Act And The Automobile Insurance Act ". (Bill No . 17) . The Conveyancing Act" .

A bill, "An Act To Amend (Bill No . 16) . . ,4 8 5

May 31 , 1982, Tape 700, Page 1 -- apb On motion , the following bills ,.,ere read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomor row: A bill, "An Act To Amend The Prisons Act ". (Bill No. 14) . A bill , "

An Act To Amend The Unit:ed Church Of Canada Act" . (Bill No . 3) . A bill , "An Act To Ame nd The Urban And Rural Planning Act" . (Bill No . 42) . A bill , "An Act To Amend The St. John 's Assessment Act". {Bill No. 24). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Municipalities Act" . (Bill No. 25). A bill, "An Act To Repeal The St . John 's Memorial Stadium Act, 1974" . (Bill No.35) . A bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of Corner Broo k Act ". (Bill No . 23 ). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Gan der Development C0rporation Ac t, 1975" (Bill No . 5) . A bill, "An Act To Amend The Bay St .

George Comm uni ty College Act ". (Bill No. B). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Education Act" . (Bi ll No. 37). A bill , "An Act To Amend The The l-1emorial University (Pensions) Act" . (Bill No .7) . A bill , "An Act To Amend The Mineral Act, 1976 ". (Bill No . 22). 1t, as

May 31 , 1982, Tape 701, Page l -- apb On motion, the following bills were read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow : A bill, "An Act To Amend The

Schedule To The Government - British Newfoundland Corporation Limited - N.M .Rothschild & Sons (Confirmation Of Agreement) Act, 1953". (Bill No. 21). A bill, "An Act Respecting Certain Powers Of Appoi.,tment" . (Bill No. 29) . A bill, "An 1\ct To Amend Certain Acts Re sp ecting Government Departments To Provide The Fower For Ministers To Enter Into Agreements Subject To Specified Terms And Conditions" . (Bill No. 28) . A bill, "An Act To Amend The Conflict Of Interest Act, 1973" . (Bill No . 15) . A bill, "An Act To Amend The Status Of Worr.en Advisory Council Act" . (Bill No. 27) .

A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Newfoundland Fisheries Development Authority Act". (Bill No . 10) . 1\ bi 11, "An Act To Amend The Day Care And Homemaker Services 1\ct, 1975" . (Bill No .36) . A bill, "A n Act To Amend The Livestoc k (He alth) Act". (Bill No. 26). A bill, "An Act To 1\mend The Automobile Insurance Act". (Bill No . 44). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Unified Family Court Act". (Bill No . 43). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Industrial Devclopn~cnt i\cL". (Uill No. J 8) . "14 8 7

' May 31, 1982 Tape No. 702 NM - 1 On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Ways and Means to consider the raising of supply granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Before I recognize the han. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), who is going to speak, I would like to welcome to the galleries the Mayor of Triton, Mr. Wilbur Windsor, and Councillor Mr. Wilson Fudge, from the Premier's district. I welcome you to the galleries today. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ The han. member for Port au Port. Hear, hear~ MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to lead off on the Budget Speech. Mr. Speaker, the budget is cleverly done but a deceptive budget. The full impact of this budget will not be felt by Newfoundlanders until some months have passed. It does not stimulate the economy. The stimulative measures in the budget have mostly been announced during the election campaign and most of the stimulation is through the Federal/Provincial Highways Agreement and the Forestry Agreement,cleverly included in the budget,as if this government were doing something on their own. Mr.

Speaker, as a preliminary comment I would say that the budget is not fair, it is not a fair budget to Newfoundlanders in that it hits the low income earners worst. Because outside of the two per cent personal income tax, which is a fair tax I suppose in that it hits the lower income earners of the Province in a lessor way than those who earn high incomes, the budget follows the line which this administration has been following for the past two or three budgets, and that is that it raises fees. Now in the Premier's first election in 1979 he promised that there would be no raise in taxes. Mr.

Speaker, there is a thin line between raising fees in every conceivable way from taxes, but the 1488

May 31, 1982 Tape 703 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: point about why I say that this budget is unfair to the low-income earners in this Province is because a fee hurts those who can least afford to pay for it moreso than those who can pay for it, and the raising of fees for every conceivable thing in the Province over the past few years penalizes people with small incomes in exactly the same way as it hits the millionnaire. Mr. Speaker, it is time for this government to realize that they cannot sneak away from their responsibilities by raising every type of licence. I do not know, Mr.

Speaker, if there is a licence in this Province that has not been raised over the past three years. Mr. Speaker, I want to say something about the budget,or what happened prior to the budget being brought down. I want for a minute to put something straight. We in the Opposition have been accused of projecting substantial tax hikes in the budget. And even though the - and I congratulate the Evening Telegram on its coverage of the budget. It was much clearer - I think it was in Friday's Telegram than certainly was the Budget Speech itself. But, Mr.

Speaker, the editorial said, "The most noticeable first reacticn to the provincial budget brought down in the House of Assembly yesterday by Finance Minister Dr. John Collins was one of surprise, even slight shock, at least it should be for the Opposition Party. Their spokesman and some in other fields had been ominously projecting s~bstantial tax hikes mainly because of the Province's difficult economic circumstances." 1489

May 31, 1982 Tape 703 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that I, myself, who am the spokesman for financial affairs, and a new one, I might add, for this party, and my colleagues,have in no way -we have actually, Mr. Speaker, predicted this budget. And, Mr. Speaker, I am on record as saying jn the public media on a number of l· 11t 9 n

May 31,1982 Tape No. 704 ah-1 MR. HODDER: occasions in the public media that I thought that the type of Budget that would come down this time would be one with little spending, little to stimulate the economy but I did not predict all the horror stories that we were hearing. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: But, Mr.

Speaker, I refer to another editoria~ that was previously in the Evening !_E,!J,-_e_gram. which said; The Budget is coming down next week amid apprenension and reoorts that ar.e more than rumours - so r-.he ~vening Telegram itself were predicting a hard Budqet -'that some taxes may be increased,partic~larly the eleven per cent sales tax, still the highest in Canada: MR. NEARY: He said it 1'ms qoing to be a hard Budget. I was only quoting him. MR.HODDER: So, Mr.

Speaker, I could not let that pass because in our deliberations in caucus every member of this side accurately predicted what the Premier would do in this Budget. MR.NEARY: Right on. lle was trying to psyche people out. MR. HODDER: And, Mr. Speaker, what really happened,and the reason I referred to those editorials was because I have no doubt in my mind that the wild rumours that were eminating from the Civil Service and coming from the Confederation Building were deliberate attempts by the government, Mr. Speaker, deliberate attempts by the government - MR. NEARY: To psyche people out.

MR.HODDER: - to psyche people out, to let them feel t~e worst before the Budget came down. And the only reason, Mr. Speaker, that this Budget was 1491

May 31,1982 Tape No . 704 ah-2 MR . HODDER: even halfway accepted by the media, by the people in the Province -although I saw a poll which showed that by far the majority of the people who were polled by the CBC said that they did not like the Budget - but Mr . Speaker , people were built up for a bad Budget,and maybe it is a shrewd move on the part of this governme nt, bu t. this is not a good Budget , Mr . Speaker . MR .NEARY : Thirty -five to one \¥ere against it . MR . TOBIN : (Inaudible) esc , the Poll MR. NEARY: \~hy what have you got against the CBC? What have you got against them? '1R.

TOBIN : Not hina aaai nst them . NR .N:EARY : lvell , okay , leave them alone . MR.HODDER : Mr . Speaker - MR . NEARY : You fellows would not agree in your caucus and let them come in and televise the daily sessions of the House . MR . HODDER : -Mr . Speaker , \vhat we have here is a Budget with little spending and very little stimulative effect . But I know of no one here who said that we would have increases on sales tax or a tax on clothing . The major effect of this nudget , Mr .

Speaker , is to hurt the fishermen , farmers , the poor , the middle income earners , civil servants , vocational students , the children, the sick and the dying , drivers - 1£, 9 2

May 31, 1982 Tape 705 PK - 1 MR . NEARY : Right on. MR . HODDER : - waiters , those who work in the forest industry, gardeners , those who are trying to supplement their incomes by growing a few vegetables and tourists. That is just to name a few, Mr . Speaker. MR . TULK : They talk about developing natural resources. ~1R . HODDER: Anu overall this budqct does not provid~ money for many badly needed problems in this Province . MR . NEARY: nut lots of jails. We are going to have lots of jails in Newfoundland . MR . HODDER: Overall, Mr.

Speaker, the budget does not provide money for many badly needed programmes in this Province . MR . NEARY : ~. HODDER : Close hospitals and built jails. And wher e there 1s some lip service whe=e we have problems,there has not been enough but just Band -7\id treatment. The tourism budget has been cut in a number of significant places. New road building in unincorporated areas is at a minimum . There are no new initiatives to help the fishery - to help our trou~led fishery,! might add . There is no major development thrust . There are no ne~1 initiatives to help small business .

If you go through the budget carefully you realize that the in£lation rate this year , I think, it is 10 .5 to 11 per cent . Services have been cut to a minimum in the budget. And the implied waqe restraints will not work in light. of our own action s. So , Mr. Spt•<Jkcr, pcrh.1ps we should look in detail at some of the parts of this budget which was brought down in this !louse on Thursday . 149 1

May 31, 1982 Tape 705 PK - 2 M.R . HODDER: I-!r . Speaker, one that strikes me as being one of a number of blows to Newfoundlanders and blows to the ordinary people of .this Province, the increased tuition fees which were anhounced for vocational schools. Now,Mr .

Speaker , any member for this assembly who represents a rural area,and particularly any member of this House, and there are a lot of members on both sides of this House who represent high unemployment areas of this Province, where people ace either on unemployment insurance or on the verge of social assistance, any member that represents districts such as that will realize,particularly if the standards of education are low- and they are, Mr. Speaker; a study done not ·too long ago said that Newfoundlanders had the highest rate of illiteracy in 11d4

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 706 so - l MR. HODDER: Canada-will realize that the increased tuition fees to vocational students which the Budget - the Budget has a funny language, Mr. Speaker, because the Budget only tells half of the story. There is an attempt to be deceptive even in the language of the Budget. MR. NEARY: Funny and false. MR. HODDER: They are raising the tuition fees by $100 for a semester. They do not mention that there are normally two semesters in a lot of the colleges in the Province, so it is a $200 raise,not a $100 raise.

And they have done away with the $100 a month fee paid to provincial students. Andwhen we look at a usual nine month term for many of those courses that is $900 that has been taken away. Then on the other hand they have said that students at those colleges can get up to $2,000 to $2,500 in student loans. Mr. Speaker, I want to talk about that for a little while because there was a federal Task Force that went throughout the Province some time ago and I saw some of the submissions.

I put a submission to that Task Force myself, I was there when a number of submissions were placed in the Corner Brook and Stephenville­ West Coast area,and I have had access to some of the - and they are all up for public consumption - to some of the briefs that were put in in other parts of the Province. And one of the things, Mr. Speaker, that that Task Force found when they went through the Province was that there was a trememdous pressure,and it came up right across the Province, to increase that $100 fee which had not been changed for twelve years.

When I first taught at what was then known as the Adult Centre,which is now the Bay St. George Community College,in Stephenville in 1968 , students were getting $100 at that particular time, provincial students, Manpower students get another amount. But what has happened, Mr. Speaker, is that students are now being told they have to pay an extra 11~ 9 5

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 706 SD - 2 MR. HODDER: $1,100 in order to attend those courses 1 but they CQn get student loans. I want to talk about that for a while because, you know, Mr. Speaker, one of the problems with our vocational schools, and I have said this in the House on many occasions- there are many aspects I want to talk about today but this is the one that sort of ·1 4 9 6

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 707 MJ - 1 MR. J. HODDER: struck me the most-but there are many courses which we are teaching in our vocational schools at the present time, particularly with the type of economy we have in this Province today and the type of economy we have across Canada,for which once the oerson does those courses there are no jobs afterwards,or there are very few jobs.

So that anvbody that goes into a travel counselling course, and I know one has heen run on the West coast of the Province where they have had a qreat success rate and had a successful course, anv student going into fine arts or into cower engineering or into carnentry with the construction trade down, they ~rc goinq in to upgrade themselves,but they are looking and they know that there is a verv good chance when they qet out that there will not be work for them. Also, Mr.

Speaker, students who are encouraged peoole, adults,not students, adults - who are encouraged to go into various schools across the Province, the vocational tvpe schools where there is upgradinq,very often thev have a low level of education and in that year. they have one vear in order to trv and qet to a position where they can then qet into a course in vocatjonal schools.so sometimes people go in at grade seven and thev make it to grade ten or grade eleven,and then they can do a course that will allow them into the vocational schools. ~hese are peoole, Mr.

Speaker, who would be horrified and will be horrified to know that they have to go out and borrow a couple of thousand dollars to trv and uoqrade themselves. It is the psychologv, Mr. Speaker, and it is a osvcholoqv that will mean decreased seats in the vocational schools of this Province and it will mean decreased seats in the Bav St. Georqe Colleqe. MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: It will mean decresed enrollment 11~ 9 7

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 707 MJ - 2 MR. J. HODDER: next year. Now, Mr. Speaker, if we are goinq to try and bring this Province to a point where we are able to get jobs, ']IdS

Hay 31, 1982 Tape No. 70S NM - l MR. HODDER: where we are able to get jobs, where we have a hi·:rhly skilled work force and are going to be able to get jobs across this country, and across this Province, I think, Mr. Speaker, that it is despicable and deplorable that the government would take action to make it more difficult­ and it will make it more difficult, Mr. Speaker- for students to get into vocational schools. I know, Mr.

Speaker, many, many students who ~re in vocational schools now who come from families, who have been encouraged to go to vocational schools and where they have to travel and stay in residence, where that $100 a month, even though inadequate, was the only reason why they went in. It was the way,Mr. Speaker. And,Mr. Speaker, we are very short of skilled trades in this Province, and this has been a blow to the heart of vocational education. MR. NEARY: Right on~ They are completely insensitive to the needs of the young people of this Province. MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, I would like for a moment as well to talk about - Mr.

Speaker, another point that I would like to talk about at this moment, and I suppose it was one of the things in the budget where we went after the tourists, and while most Newfoundlanders will breathe a sigh of relief that their moose licence did not increase, the big game licence fees were boosted; Canadian non-residents,which was $250 for moose and $400 for caribou - or was $150 rather for moose and $300 for caribou has been boosted $250 for a moose licence and $400 for a caribou, and other non-residents the fee was boosted, from what I do not know but to $350 for moose and $500 for caribou. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the more I look at this budget the more I wonder what we are trying to do. You know, one of the main attractions of the central part of this Province, and particularly on the west Coast of this Province, there are many people who gain their livelihood both in the transportation business, those who fly small planes, 11+ 9 9

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 708 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: those outfitters who provide accommodations for outside tourists, now I do not believe, Mr . Speaker, we shou~d allow outsiders ,but if they are coming irt at prices like this what we are doing is we are discouraging these peopl~from whom the west Coast for years and years and years have made a good dollar in the Fall , where hotels, motels have been booked on the west Coast of this Province and in the Central part of this Province . t-tl< . '•'lJLK : MR. HODDER: The Premier is going to replace them .

And the outfitters have made a good dollar because usually when these residents come in they do spend money. They spend money more than mo st tourists . ~IR. STAGG : Are you sure it is goinq to discouraqe them? ·1 5 G 11

May 31, 1982 Tape 709 EC -1 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member feels that by increasing these fees it Hill not disco.urage them, with the economy as it is now and with business i.n a total hold back, when the economy of the whole country is in a state of collapse and the economy of the Province is in a 1-10rse state of collapse that we will encourage people by raising non-resident fees, then I think the hon. member should have another think about that. Mr.

Speaker, we were not giving it a1vay in the beginning, and 1 think if the hon. member ,.,ill check with outfitters across this Province, and check with the hotel and motel association and various other interested people in this Province, he will find that his comments are frivolous and ill thought out. MR. TULK: \'ihat a minister! What a minister! MR. NEARY: Are they giving away everything on the Harmon Corporation or what? Is that lvhat you are talking about? I hear they have a great give-away programme going out there. MR. STAGG: Do you t'lant to get it away? MR.

NEARY: Giving it away to themselves for trip.s around the lvorld. l\lR. UODDER: Mr. Speaker, another point in this budget -I am just hitting the high points now -is the children's - MR. STAGG: Your leader is hitting the low ones. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, if the parliamentary s<.:crcL fr·nrn SLeph~nvilll.' l:oulil rP!lll-din l1illl:;l•lf, I lv<Hrld get on with my speech. 1 5 ~ 1

May 31, 1982 Tape 709 EC - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the children's dental programme has been cut from two treatments to one treatment, '.::1.e Hinister of Finance (Dr. Collins) said, on the basis of expert advice which his department had received. Mr. Speaker, the fact is that this Province has less dentists per capita - MR. STAGG: MR. HODDER: MR. CALLAN: MR. HODDER: Fewer. - fewer - And more cavities. - fewer dentists per capita than any other Province in Canada. And, Mr.

Speaker, I am told - I do not know where the minister's advice carne from--but I have been told by reputable dentists in this Province that this is not so. And what we have done here, Mr. Speaker, is we have robbed the children in order to balance the budget - MR. NEARY: and the dying. MR. HODDER: That is right, and the sick -Mr. Speaker, with a Province with less dentists per capita than any other Province in Canada. This, Mr.

Speaker, I have been told by dentists 1 is a bad move and I think that that probably typifies the thinking of this government more than anything else that we witnessed in the Budget Speech. Of course, Mr. Speaker, we could always talk about the hospital beds,where ward fees have gone from $3 to $5. I wonder who that hurts, Mr. Speaker. Who does that hurt? Does that hurt the rnillionnaire? The maximum fee for a stay in a hospital has gone from $45 to $75. Who does that hurt? "15 0?

May 31 , 1982 MR . NEARY : MR. TULK : MR . HODDER: Tape 710 Shame. What? The maximum fee PK - 1 for the period of time you are in used to be $45. It has now qone to $75. MR . TULK : fees for rooms? MR . HODDER: type of room you are in. MR . NEARY : MR . HODDER : What is the difference in \vell it depends on what $50 .00 . If you are in a cheaper room your maximum - but if you are in a more expensive room you would have less days before you got to the maximum . l-1R . TULK~ Oh ! MR . HODDER : Where they are sem~- priv ate rooms, there are many people who go into hospitals, Mr .

Speaker, who need semi-private rooms . ?-1R. NEARY: That is right . MR . HODDER: They have gone from $12 to $20 , and private rooms to ~ 30 per day from $18 per day . MR. TULK : Take it off th~ poor . MR . HODDER : Mr . Spe ak er, that to me ,.1R . TULh: Hit the poor and the sick . That is the Tory philosophy . MR . NEARY : Criminal . MR . HODDER : when L made my openir.g remarks/when I started the b\ldget speech,is where thi s government has to stop. You cannot raise fees without hurting the low income people i~ this Province . And everybody one time or another will find themselves in a hospital .

And aqain we are not doing it on a graduated scale . M.r. Speaker , there was $70 million for transportation projects . This was the major ., 50 3

.L· May 31, 1982 Tape 710 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: stimulative part of this budget. Now this $70 million for transportation projects, Mr. Speaker, is probably the most used piece of information I have ever seen in my life. MR. TULK: And they probably will not use it anyway. MR. HODDER: First of all, Mr. Speaker, the government fought with the federal government for years on the transportation agreement. This was the famous agreement, Mr. Speaker, which the two parties could not get together to sign. Then, Mr.

Speaker, during the election campaign,the Premier came out with-or prior to the election campaign,the Premier came out with his stimulation of the economy. He was going to get everything going again, But lo and behold, Mr. Speaker, when he had his press conference the money that he announced , 75 per cent of t!"1e money came from Ottawa. So he was using Ottawa money - MR. TULK: 1he great pretender. MR. HODDER: - prior to an election campaign to get things g6ing. He was going to tender early. Then, Mr. Speaker, after hearing all of that again for the second time MR. NEARY: Pretender. MR.

TULK: Good old PP, Pretender Peckford. MR. HODDER: - we found that lo and behold in the budget the major stimulative effect of the budget-ann I heard Dr. May on television from the University saying it was a stimulative budget. And, you know, he mentioned the money for transportation projects. Mr. Speaker, 1504

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 711 MJ -l MR. J. HODDER: it may have been stimulative but it certainly had nothing to do with this go·vernment. That particular ~70 million has stimulated the economy over and over aqain-And this is the third time we have been told that this $70 million is goinq to stimulate the economy. MR. S. NEARY: t-1R. TULR: The Throne Speech and the election. \ve will sec ho1-r much stimulation is there next fall ~~hen· the unemployment rate is about 2 5 per cent. MR. HODDER: forestry projects. MR. '!'ULK: We also see, Hr. Speaker, the ~he member for Twillingat~ (Mrs. I.

Reid) will turn down her Canada Works Programs next year. MR. HODDER: $14 million, Mr. Speaker, for forestry projects. This is another part of this stimulative budqet . This is supposed to be forest access roads, silviculture. Mr. Speaker, again, the DREE agreement on forestry which was signed last year, which has all been announced and reannounced again to make this government look qood, that they have a budget that stimulates the economy. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. TTILK: They will probably spend it next year. MR_.._____N_EAR¥_: Shame. MR. HODDER: And, Mr.

Speaker, in adOition to all that the government received an additional $115 million from Ottawa this year. MR. NEARY: ---In what kind of projects? I-1R. IIODDBR: ----·----Mr. Speakor, the public debt is ot 15[;5

May 31 , 1982 Tape No . 711 l>IJ - 2 MR. J. HODDF.R: $3 .3 billion , up from a billion dollars in 1972,and that is something that we should reflect on soberly, Mr . Speaker . I think it is something like $6,00~ is it, per Newfoudlander ? MR . S. NEARY: That is right. $6,000 for every man, woman and child in the Province . MR. IIODDER : Mr . Speaker . MR . NEARY: And how much are they going to drive the debt up this year for every man , woman and child? s~nn million that is $5,000 . MR.

HODDER: Now most people I think in the Province predicted that there would be raises in the liquor prices and on the cigarette tax. These are favorite whipping dogs and I suppose we as a society,no more than other Province in Canada ,but we could all •a ys ,and it is best to give up smokinq and we can all of us ,across the Province the per capita consumption of alcohol certainly does nothing for the productivity of the Province . Mr . Speaker , on that matter I would like ask just a couple of questions . And perhaps when one of the hon . members on the other side answers or speaks again to this budget . 1S i.i6

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 712 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: that they will perhaps give me some facts. At what point do we get diminishing returns from increases? Because it happens year after year after year on beer and liquor And at what point, Mr. Speaker, and the government might take this at he~rt: I am told that in Prince Edward Island that they have come to a point with the price of liquor where there has been an outbreak of not smuggling, Mr. Speaker, I am talking about alcohol - they are making moonshine up there,I am told-or at least an

article I saw in one of the Atlantic Canada magazinesonce said. So I think, Mr. Speaker, that this House has to be cognizant of that. But that is not the most important point, Mr. Speaker. Cigarettes have now reached - and I can tell this House that it is true - that cigarettes have now reached the price in this Province whereby it is very, very profitable to bring cigarettes in from other Provi~ces. And, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask again, and perhaps I will get a reply to this,or we on this side of the House will get a reply to this , but what moves has this government taken to stop cigarette smuqgling into the Province ? With this new hike, Mr. Speaker, I am not against the hike, I smoke myself and I wish I did not and I am hoping that this further increase will lead me to get back to my non-smoking self as I was several months ago. But, Mr. Speaker, there is a great deal of cigarette smuggling coming into this Province both on a personal basis for people who travel outside the Province and through businesses.

And it is very hard to detect, Mr. Speaker. And I think that what we have to adcress ourselves to is, you know, when you push it too far,then you better make sure that there are controls to stop the smuggling 1and if there are no controls 1 then the further we push it the less revenues we will receive. Now that is a warning to the government. 15u7

z May 31 , 1982 Tape No . 712 so - 2 MR . HODDER : Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but,while saying a fe w wor ds,to talk about the Social Services payments . 'l'hey were effective J\pril 1st . It has been said here in the aouse be fore but I \~ould be of the feeling from some of the news reports that emanated from the Budget that perhaps Social Assistance recipient s across this Province may feel that they have a rurther 10 per cent increase because , Mr . Speaker, this particular increa ·se, the regular and special foster homes rates which were 1 5 i_. 8

May 31, 1982 Tape 713 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: increased 10 per cent, social assistance rates and mortgage allowance rates increased 10 per cent. These particular increases, if ever you could use the words 'election bait', were election bait. Now, Mr. Speaker, social assistance recipients in this Province need the 10 per cent, they need more than the 10 per cent. Mr. Speaker, they have been dropping behind over and over again.

Now, there are many people on social assistance in this Province who through various circumstances can supplement their income, but there are people, widows and particularly the handicapped, and there are a lot of people on social assistance because they are handicapped, people who have worked all their lives and then because of the types of skills they had, had a heart attack or found themselves in unfortunate circumstances and had to go on social assistance. And, Mr. Speaker, there is no sadder sight than a person who was always used to paying his own way. But, Mr.

Speaker, the cost of living has been increasing faster than social assistance payments have been paid, so this 10 per cent is not a goodie, Mr. Speaker, this 10 per cent was a must. And I think if you talk to any ot tne social workers across this Province they will say that the people on social assistance need more. When you walk into a house, Mr.

Speaker, and the gentleman there has a heart condition and a problem with his kidney and one cannot be operated on because of the other, and he is sitting there and cannot even get his own wood or waJk outside the house,and he has a couple of children in high school, and he takes out his pencil 1 5 [.1 ~

M;;~y H , 1982 'l'upe No. 713 EC - 2 MR . HODDER: and he says , ' This is what I have, ' you start to realize, Mr . speaker, just what kind of financial circumstances a person can find him ­ self in . I still say, Mr . Speaker, there should be two rates for social assistance, for those people who are disabled and for those people who are able to catch a few fish or grow something in their gardens . MR. STAGG: And what about the widO\oJS? MR. HODDER: And the widows, Mr . Speaker. I think I told the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey) of a case this year where a widow had been in such a poor home that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing had bui1t he r a new one but put an oil furnace in there . Mr . Speaker, she could not fill the tank with her monthly payment . ·1 51 n

May 31, 1982 Tape 714 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: And that is the sort of problems that we find people on social assistance in. But what happened, Mr. Speaker, in the past election? These payments have been made. These payments have been in the hands of social assistant recipients for some time because during the election, Mr. Speaker, a little blue slip carne out which said, 'You have now'just prior to the election,'you have now had your social assistance payments raised by 10 per cent. It was not the first time it happened, Mr. Speaker, it happened in the 1979 election as well. It may have happened in the 1975 election.

And, Mr. Speaker, I say that this is an insult to the intelligence of the people and it smacks of the worst political patronage that one could imagine. Because, Mr. Speaker, if you do have social assistance recipients in this Province and they are in need, and there are some in need and ~here are some that are not, but there are many in need, if you have social assistance recipients my goodness let us have enough respect for them that we give them their raises in the same manner that we would give any other public servant a raise when a particular time comes around. MR. NEARY: Right on.

Not while there is an election on. MR. HODDER: I am glad to see, Mr. Speaker, in this budget,as well,that increases for pensioners drawing benefits under the Public Service Pension Plan is up 10 per cent. Mr. Speaker, that 10 per cent does not mean an awful lot for an awful lot of people. Mr. Speaker , I know of one gentleman who taught for 30 years, perhaps some hon. members in this House know of whom I speak, he taught for 30 years but he stopped teaching somewhere in the early sixties. And, Mr. Speaker, his teachers pension was thirty years of teach- ing along with MR. NEARY: '62 to be exact. MR. HODDER: What?

MR. NEA1<Y: '62. 1 5 ·1 1

'I May 31, 1982 Tape No. 714 RA - 2 MR. HODDER : 1962 . His teachers ' pension,for teachi ng for thirty years along the South Coast of this Province as a dedicated person .is somewhere around $250 .00 per month. Now , Mr . Speaker , that is the wonderful NTA, who really have been loo kin g after their pensioners . And , Mr . Speaker, that 10 per cent increase is not going to mean very much . A 10 per cent increase will mean an awful lot for certain brackets in the public service,but a 10 per cent increase in situations like that.I think, Mr. Speaker, it is nothing .

It wi ll mean nothing , and I think that system - and I condem the NTA for the way that they have treated some of the reti red teachers who . have spent 1 51 2

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 715 IB-1 MR. HODDER: years and years and years in the public service in this Provincei lay r.eaders/burj~C the dead, walked from community to community in the days when the Province had no roads, and now, Mr. Speaker, they are living on a paltry sum of $250 to $300 a month-And' they were educated people in their time, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when we see a 10 per cent increase for people such as this, then I think, Mr. Speaker, that we should stop and think that there are some anomalies in the way that we have been treating some of our retired people who built this Province, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, the new hospital beds, of course -here we go again, the languaqe of the budget which is ~!ways deceptive,I understand. And l say this, Mr. Speaker, is a good thing but not far enough by any means. But we see that St. Patrick's Mercy Home we did not find out how many beds were actually increased,but they are increased to 200. So one would not know if it were five bedsr it could have been 195. ~ou know, the budget sort of always gives the best side. MR. NEARY: Fuzzy. MR. HODDER: Fuzzy, a fuzzy budget, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, thirty-five extra beds in Carbonear, ten in Springfield, six in Grand Bank, fifty in licenced boarding homes throughout the Province, and twenty-five beds in homes for ex-psychiatric care. Now, Mr. Speaker, one of the problems -and I commend the government on this. The only thinq I will warn the government about is that it is not going to go 'nearly far enough. Because I will tell you what is happening in the Province's hospitals.

Any member of this House can go to the nearest hospital,wherever, in their district. or to the hospitals in their districts,and they will find that a great number of the patients in those hospitals should not be in the hospitals but there is nowhere to put them. '1 5 i 3

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 714 RA - 2 MR. HODDER : 1962. His teachers' pension,for teaching for thirty years along the South Coast of this Province as a dedicated pcrson ,is somewhere around $250 .00 per month . Now, Mr . Speaker, that is the 1o1onderful NTA 1 who really have been looking after their pensioners . And, r-tr . Speaker, that 10 per cent increase is not going to mean very much. 1\ 10 per cent increase will mean an awful lot for certain brackets in the public service,but a 10 per cent increase in situations like that. I think, Mr. Speaker , it is nothing .

It will mean nothing, and I think that system - and I condem the NTA for the way that they have treated some of the retired teachers who have spent 1 51 2

May 31, 1982 Tape No. 715 IB-1 MR. HODDER: years and years and years in the public service in this Province; lay readers1burl~C the dead, walked from community to community in the days when the Province had no roads, and now, Mr. Speaker, they are living on a paltry sum of $250 to $300 a month.And' they were educated people in their time, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when we see a 10 per cent increase for people such as this, then I think, Mr. Speaker, that we should stop and think that there are some anomalies in the way that we have been treating some of our retired people who built this Province, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the new hospital beds, of course -here we go again, the lan~ruage of the budget which is always deceptive,I understand. Artd l say this, Mr. Speaker, is ~ good thing but not far enough by any means. But we see that St. Patrick's Mercy !lome we did not find out how many beds were actually increased1but they are increased to 200. So one would not know if it were five bedsr it could have been 195. ~ou know, the budget sort of always gives the best side. MR. NEARY: Fuzzy. MR. HODDER: Fuzzy, a fuzzy budget, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, thirty-five extra beds in Carbonear, ten in Springfield, six in Grand nank, fifty in licenced boarding homes throughout the Province, and,, t~enty-five beds in homes for ex-psychiatric care. Now, Mr. Speaker, one of the problems -and I commend the government on this. The only thinq I will warn the government about is that it is not going to go nearly far enough. Because I will tell you what is happening in the Province's hospitals.

Any member of this !louse can go to the r-earest hospital,wherever, in their district, or to the hospitals in their districts,and they will find that a great n~mber of the patients in those hospitals should not be in the rospitals but there is nowhere to put them. '1 5 'j :J

_ _l fllay n, 1982 Tape No . 715 IB-2 t1R. HODDER : As well,in every district in this Province you have people who are living with their families who should no longer be there. I have had a number of cases myselC,and I know other members have had the same number of cases . A hospital bed, I am told, is $200 a day or more . That is what it costs . And we have people in those hospital beds who should be in homes . A.nd, Mr .

Speaker , even thoug h this loo ks very, very generous , and I am glad that the government has recognized that something must be done about this problem because the government is losing revenues, they are losing revenues because they have p~tients who should be treated in other ways and who do not really need hopsital ~ccommodations and the type of accommodations the hospital requires,who should be in specialized facilities . 'l'hesc patients are costing the taxpayers of this Province millions and millions of dollars every year . And I am told that this is not unique to any one hospital, that it is a ·1 5 i i.

May 31, 1982 Tape 716 PS - 1 MR. HODDER: problem, and I am sure that the member for Exploits (Dr. T•omey) would quite agree, that this is a problem which is right throughout this Province, from St. John's to Port aux Basques, and from St. Anthony down to Stephenville - MR. NEARY: Right onl MR. HODDER: - and I am sure on the coast of Labrador. or in the Labrador area. we are paying millions of dollars a year for people in hospitals because there is no where else to put them. And while I say, Mr. Speaker, good for the government, they have done this, Mr. Speaker, it is certainly not enough yet.

And I will warn the government of something else, too, those licensed boarding homes. Get on the ball, and make sure that they are properly inspected and that when a person has applied for a licensed boarding home - and I know of a case of this happening in the province, where a person has applied for a licensed boarding home, reneuovated the home, spent a great deal of funds, and then, Mr.

Speaker, even though, you had cases in th~ hospitals that should not have been there, people who could have been living in that particular home he has not received anybody yet. 'I have spent the money, I made an outlay of $10,000 for this home, you asked me to do it, and now there is no one coming.' And yet, you talk to the social workers at the hospitals, you talk to the social workers in the area, and you find that there are people who should be in that particular home. Now, I do not know what is happening, Mr.

Speaker, but someone in the Department of Health - and the minister is not here - has to get their act together on this, MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: ex-psychiatric care: Right on! Mr. Speaker, the 25 beds and homes for One of the saddest things I suppose, 15 'I 5

May 31, 1982 Tape 716 PS - 2 MR. I!OOOF.R: that I have witne sse d, is a family - -.--·- ·- where - and I knew the gentlemen, he had a brain hemmoraqe and became violent and that sort of thing. I have written letters to everywhere in the world. Jle had to come back - and 1 spoke to the psychiatrist at the Western Memorial Hospital, he came back to his home and was such a threat to his family that the children left, they stayed away from home, they would qo to neighbours nomes, they would do anything rather than stay there.

Yet, Mr. speaker, after repeated letters and phone calls, and solicitation on my pa rt , they have not been able to qet that person in a proper place, where he can he properly looked after. Mr. Speaker , 25 beds will not even start to tou ch the problem. Mr. Speaker, I will give you this -or will give the minister of Finance (Or. Collins) this, it is a start, but a very small start. Mr. speaker, I will speak for a moment about the salary freeze on senior public servants. Mr. Speaker, it is very easy for the government to put .. 'IS i 6

May 31, 198 2 Tape No. 717 MLeP - l MR. J. HODDER a 5 per cent salary freeze on senior civil servants. I am sure senior civil servants have the wherewithal! and they have- I do not know if they tave more expenses ,they have more priviliges than most members of the public service- Theycertainly have more priviliges, expense accounts etc. than do . the support workers in the various parts of government. MR. S. NEARY Look at Cabot Martin's iob there now and see how much he is going to be affected. MR. HODDER But. Mr.

Speaker, if this 5 per cent freeze is meant to try and limit those groups in the public service who have been falling behind the cost of living, then I think Mr. Speaker, that we are in For a long hot year . Not a lonq hot SummPr, Mr. Speaker, but I predict that this will be a very, very, very troublesome time ahead. MR. NEARY Right on. MR. HODDER Because,Mr. Speaker,you cannot expect those who have very, very high salaries and have been getting very very high increases- oerhans thev are not as well off ns they were before the inflationary spiral started, but most of them are •1s prr'ttv well cff, Mr.

Speaker, and they certainly have a lot of disposable income. And,Mr. Speaker, if we start to try those quidc11nes or anything close to them on the support staff, the maintenance workers, the liquor store workers, the police, the firemen,the wardens nno all the other people that are part of our public service, then, Mr. Speaker, I feel that perhaps this Province might be disrupted for sometime to come. Gove:::nment must, government must with those people, be fair and compassionate. No longer, Mr.

Speaker, can we see the sight that we saw over here at the College of Trades and Technology last year, no longer can we see these people being ·15 I 7

May 31, l9 82 Tape No. 717 MLeP - 2 MR. l!ODDER denied a reasonable income. Mr. Speaker, this must be done with compassion. We, of all people here in this !louse of Assembly, should certainly understand '1 5 if!

May 31, 1982 Tape 718 TM- 1 MR. HODDER: that these people need money as well. Perhaps the hallmark of this budget is what the government has done to the fishermen and the farmers - MR. NEARY: Right on! MR . HODDER : - in this P~ovince. Maybe that is what I should have started with Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: Horrible, horrible! MR. HODDER: - the fishermen and the farmers. This a negative, Mr. Speaker. I saw nothing in this budget to be to be positive about. Even th8 goodies, Mr. Speaker, were either recteral money, rcderal money or it was I;JOt enough, or it was money that had already been committed before.

I will get to the school boarlds later, but , Mr. Speaker, the increase in tax for the fishermen and farmers is a blow to the primary and the most important producers that we have in this Province. Now I know that our farming industry is small, but I would say, Mr. Speaker, that the farmers in the minister's district from St. Georges (Mr. Dawc), which is a big farming district, and the farmers in the Humber Valley and the farmers on the Avalon Peninsula are not too happy with this government today. Because, Mr. Speaker, the economy of this Province has crucified the fishermen and the farmers.

It has crucified them. And any member in this House of Assembly, and there are a few of us,too, who have fishermen in their districts, or who have farmers in their districts, and I have one, one farmer - a lot of part-time farmers, Mr. Speaker, but one full-time farmer and his family, and I know, Mr. Speaker, the type of struggle that family goes through. And Mr. Speaker - PREMIER PECKFORD: What kind of farming is there in your district? MR. HODDER: In my district? PREMIER PECKFORD: I want to know what

section of farming you are talking about. "15 "i ~

May 31, 1982 Tape 718 TM - 2 MR . NEARY: Agricultural . MR. 1101>1)(-:H: Aqricultural, vc~cLa bl0s, dairy farming, sheep, cows, you name it. Romaine, Charlie Romaine- ?-lR . TULK: What kind of farm do you want? MR · HODDER : - f'nll -time farmer , keeps his family w1~ no other income than what h~ ~cts from the soil . ~1R . NEARY: They do not know any- thing about that,boy , t.hey do not understand that . MR. HODDER: Mr . Speaker, MR . NF.l\RY : There are no farmers down in th e Codroy .

MIL IIODOP.R~ 'l'h<'r<::> ;1re many rnrmers in my district but most of them cannot make enough ot a living from their farmi ng to be able to pursue it full - time and they hav e to hav e part-time jobs elsewh ere . But, Mr . Speaker , this budget ,if it should have done anything, it should have encouraged people to get into sh eep farming , it should have cncouraqed people to qro w more vegetables, it should have encouraged people to take out loans to do things . And what has it done,Mr . Speaker? It has made it more difficult . MR . NEARY : That is right. MR. HODDER: Mr .

Speaker , a fisherman , a small -b oat fisherman - \·:e :~ave :<:mall -b oat fishermen . all across this prov inr." - a small ·boat fisherman who is now having his wa ges gar nish eed by the ~epartment of Natio nal Revenue , who is suffering from the rising cost of gas prices , and ,M r. Speaker , you do not realizP hon. members I am sure 1because ·1 5 2ll

May Jl, 1982 Tape 719 JC - 1 MR HODDER : I do not see very many fishermen over on the other side of the House, and hon . members - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! MR . HODDER : Salmon fisherman, yes, and trout fishermen no doubt . Pleasure, sports fishermen, that is what is over on that side of the !louse , Mr . Speaker . And Mr. Speaker , - t-1R . STAGG: !low much fishing have you done? MR . HODDER : I will tell the hon . member how much fishing I have done . Every single Summer I go out in the boats in my district , and I go out to the trap fishery and I go out jigging - AN . HON . Mlli~ER : !lear , hear ! MR .

HODDER : - ~nd if there is anybody in ths House who knows about the fishery on my part of the coast , it is me . SOME HON . MEMBERS : llear , hear! MR . HODDER : Because I make a point every single summer , to get out with the fishermen . And I jig, Mr . Speaker , just like the Premier . But I go out and I haul the cod traps too , Mr . Speaker, just like the premier . •rhe only thing, t-1r . Speaker , I am not paid as much as the Premier . SOME HON . MEMBERS : t-1R . NEARY: in Florida . Oh, oh! No, and you do not do your fishing MR . HODDER : Mr . Speaker, I have fished out of Blue Beach .

I have been on longliners . MR . TULK : Your tan is different ! MR . NEARY : The only place the Premier fishes is ,.tiami Beach or St . Petersburg . MR . HODDER : - I have been out on a scallop boat, Mr . Speaker . ~-Je have scallops , some of the best scallops in Ne\"foundland, o'Jer on the \-lest coast . I invite hon . members over sometime for a feed of scallops . 15 21

May 31, 1982 Tape 719 JC - 2 MR. HODDER: And the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) can guarantee it, I put off a good meal around scallop season. MR. NEARY: I would love it. MR. HODDER: Perhaps, if hon. members would like to come over and see a district that is surrounded by unemployment, f·ishermen who do not have harbours and can not get out to pursue the fishery that we have, scallop, lobster, Mr. Speaker, MR. TULK: I am coming out tomorrow, is that too soon? MR, HOD ·DER: Too soon, Mr. Speaker, too soon. ~IR. TULK: Plenty of resources, but yet unemployment.

MR, MARSHALL: we are beginning to get the feeling - MR . HODDER : He did not know that the hon. member for Port au Port was a bit of a fisherman. well, not only the Premier, Mr. Speaker, goes out jigging cod, Mr. Speaker, not only the Premier. I doubt, Mr. Sp~aker, if the Premier ever shcuke~ a scallop. MR. STAGG: The hon. member is a washout as a fisherman. MR. HODDER: He may be a washout a~ a fisherman, but, Mr. Speaker, he su