Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY -SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Ses5ion VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY,.MAY 26, 1976 Number 71 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

May 26, 1976 The House met at 3:00P.M. }!r. Speaker · in the Chair. Tape 2935 IB-1 STATEt-IENTS BY mNISTERS: !'ffi. SPEAKER: The bon. ~'inister of Tourism. ~'ll. HICKEY: }lr. Speaker, this time I would like to make a statement on the situation which arose over the past weekend in one of our provincial parks. As bon. members are aware the parks opened for public use on Saturday, ~~y 15. The past weekend which included the May 24th holiday is by tradition the first big weekend for families to get out into the parks to enjoy the natural attractions of our Province.

Unfortunately in recent years it has also been a time when a segment of the more rowdy or Jess law-abiding element of our society choose to make some parks their playground and to make life miserable for. those who have come to parks for the purposes for wh:lch they were intended. Over the May 24th weekend a situation developed at Gushue's Pond Park which I am advised by my officials is the worst incident of disturbance and lawlessness that has yet been experienced in any park in the Province.

The problems were created by a group of young people in the twenty-five and under age group whose activities made life miserable for other park users. The situation became such that the n~~ were called in and charges are now pending against some ten people including offenses such as underaged drinking, impaired driving, dangerous driving and possession of drugs. A trailer was broken into and some one hundred dollars stolen from a lady'R purse. The rear window was broken in a police car by a rock.

I will not go into any further detail on those incidents at this time except to say that those responsible will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Mr. Speaker, I will at this time however assure the law-abiding people of this Province that this kind of activity :In provincial parks will not ~e tolerated. We have in this Province a park system that is second to none in the country. In my term as minister in this department I have 8763

~ ' ay 26, 1976 Tape 2935 IB-2 MR. HICKEY: heard nothing but praise for the way in which the parks are operated and maintained. Our parks serve as one of the few opportunities which many families have to get into the countryside and enjoy the natural beauties of our Province. Nr. Speaker, we do not in tend to allow this enjoyment of parks to be spoiled by the activities of a few lawless individuals who have no respect for the property or rights of others.

As mentioned earlier,those responsible for the incidents which occurred at Gushue's Pond over the past weekend will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the la~·. Also, }lr. Speaker, I now serve notice that under the powers given me under the Park Act that anyone convicted of any offense relating to rowdyism or distarbance while in a provincial park will be harred from the use of all parks in the Province for the remainder of this year. Parks are a place for people to relax and enjoy the beauties of our Province. We do not want to have to make them 'police states'.

All across Canada,however,there haa been an increase in the use of parks by the rowdy and lawless element. It has now been demonstrated that the trend is spreading into this Province. Unfortunately,the main problem is with a small number of individuals in the under twenty-five age group. I trust, Hr. Speaker, this statement today vr:!ll serve notice to all that any disturbance in parks will be dealt w:tth :tn the severest manner. Let this be a warn:tng to those who consider parks as an area where anything goes that we do not intend to tolerate disturbances :In the parks.

Any activities in parks which interfer with the property and rights of others will be dealt with as the law allows. In this regard I would like at this time to express our appreciation for the co­ operation we have received from the P.CMP and in particular the:tr efforts in dealing with the situation at Gushue's Pond. I hope by this statefient I have not conveyed the impression that all parks are areas of disturbance. ~r. Speaker, nothing could 8764

1fay 26, 1976 l"l'. HICKEY: Tape 2935 ... ~ IB-3 be further from the truth. The majority of parks never experience rowdyism> problems and users are law-abiding citizens who come to use parks for the purpose for which they were intended. It is a plensure for the park staff to serve such people. But in some parks close to the larger centers the rowdy element has become more l evident over the past several years and we intend to use every means at our disposal to eliminate this activity from parks to they can be enjoyed to the fullest extent by the people of the Province. SOME HON. !"EMBERS : Hear, hear! J-!R..

SPEAJ<ER: The hon. member for Trinity-R;>y l'e 17erde. MP .• ROWE: }'r. Speaker, we on this si.de welcome indeed the statement made by the minister regarding future action he will be taking and the RCMP will be taking with respect to the breaking of the law in our provincial parks. Our provincial parks, Si.r, are something which we should be extremely proud of and I think we have some of the best provinc:l al parks :In Eastern C'anada, indeed i.n Canada.

Unfortunately, Sir, every time there is a long weekend or some sort of a holiday, the one thing that we tend to hear over the radio and on television and in the pr:l.nted media is the rowdyism, the underaged drinking, the impaired driving, the uses of drugs and presence of drugs. We hear about this on the radio coming from our provincial parks and it leaves the impression that our provincial parks are nothing but a dri.nking and drug scene. I am afraic it would scare off some of our more law-abiding citizens in this Province.

I think it :1 R very timely that the minister should make this statement today right at the hegi.nning of the Summer season and ensure the responR:IhJe citizens of our Province that our parks will he a safe place and a clean place and an e.njoyable place in wh:lch to stBy anv dRy dur:!nz the week.,especially o~ the holidays, Sir. Unfortunately there :Is only a small rn:lno~ty that make it bad and uncomfortable for the majority of our citizens. But we do welcome the minister's statement and I hope that it 1>ill go a long ways in 8765

~l a y 26, 1 'l76 Tape 2935 IB-4 NB. JlD}lE_:_ ~!lowing our peoplelor letting our people know that our ~rovincial parks are indeed a safe 'and enjoyable place to stay during the Summer and that prompt action ~rlll he taken. I arn particularly please~ over the fact that any people who are caught and convicted presumably and found quilty and convicted will be barred from any provincial park in this Province. I think that will go a long ways to solving the problem. So, Sir, we welcome the announcement tndeed. SOME RON • ~lE?-lBEP.S : Hear, hear! PPESENTING PETITIONS: ~. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Mount Pearl. ~T..

N. WINDSOR: ~r. ~peaker, I beg leave on behalf of the bon. the Premier to present two petitions relating~o the same topic. The first petition is signed by 119 voters. It reads as follows and I read it literally, ·~e the voters and fishermen of Great Harbour Deep·do hereby urge that our federal and provincial governments take immediate action to put the fish plant at Bide Arm under Reid Products Limited into operation. We do think regardless of who buy the fish it is right to keep every industry we now have and try to improve them more where we can sell every species of fish.

We do ever pray that our democratic rights will be kept alive and the prayer of our petition will be granted." The second one, Yr. Speaker, "We the voters and fishermen of Roddickton do hereby request that the fish plant of Bide Arm be put into operation immediately for this coming season as we are ever on the increase of more fishermen and labourers and we are coming to the plac.e that sometimes there is an overflow of fish 'lffiich cannot be handled,especially of herring and mackeral.

We the people of this town are sincerely asking your co-operation for we do think there is room for both plants to be improved and more jobs created for our unemployed people., Hoping that you will be very sympathetic towards our problem, we would rather see work and employment than we would see welfare. By yo~r help we can improve it and your government. Hoping that 8766

Hay 26, 19711 Tape 2936 PK - 1 Mr. ~ · Hi nds or: the prayer of our petition will be granted:' That is signed by 271 voters. }fr. Speaker, I ask that these petitiop.s be laid on the table of the House. and referred to the departments to which they relate. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. }'JR. S. A. NEARY: 11r. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the two petitions presented on behalf of the Premier on behalf of the residents of Roddickton and Bide Arm.

About ten days ago, Sir, I had a call from Pastor Reid asking me if I will support any move from the area to get the fish plant open and to get his -I believe ft is his-little shipbuilding industry he had going there. I was only in Bide Arm I think once in my life.! went there with the Leader of the Opposition. I was tremendously impressed with the operation that I saw there, Sir. And I do not know why, Mr. Speaker, people scoff at Pastor Reid. AN HON. MEMBER: llear, hear! ~R~NEARY: I think he is to be congratulated, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: and we need more Booth Reids in Newfoundland, Sir - SOME IJON. MF:MBERS: Hear, hear! I!R. NEARY: ----- - not just to scoff at the gentleman because, not only did he do a magnificent job of resettling these people, but also put in water and sewerage and they are living in fine homes there; but what they need is an industry, and they are near the good fishing ground s there, so they need to get this fish plant opened.

And I think I read in the paper,or Pastor Reid told me in one of the many discussions that I have had with him,that what held up the whole operati on there was the fact that he could not get the money to pay the customs duty or something on a piece of equipment that was supposed to be brought into Bide Arm, and I am not sure if it was auctioned off or sent back to the manufacturers. But I think it was a shame. And then, Sir, also it was virtually impossible for the gentleman to get the co-operation of the Government of Canada, of DREE to get his fish plant off the .ground.

I do not know if there was a strenuous 8767

~~ ay 26 , 19711 Tape 2936 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: effort made on behalf of Pastor Reid and the people in Bide Arm to persuade the Government of Canada of the importance of this industry, but certainly DREE apparently scoffed at it too and everybody who I talked to seemed to make a joke out of it. But it is no joke, Sir. It means a living for several hundred Newfoundlanders. And I hope that the prayer of the petition just presented by the member from Hount Pearl (Mr. N. Windsor) of both petitions, Sir, the prayer will be answered in the next few months. NR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. ------ HR • J . R.

SI!ALLI-.OOD : 11r. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition and I congratulate the hon. member for Mount Pearl for having moved, I suppose as Parliamentary Assistant to the Premier. I am sorry that the Premier did not introduce this Resolution himself. And I certainly agree thoroughly with what has been said by the bon. member for LaPoile (Nr. Neary). Pastor Booth Reid is one of the most remarkable men in this Province. SOHE HON. MF.MBF.llS: Hear, hear! :.m. SHALLWOOn: And I say that in the most complimentary way, he has heen the butt of some witticisms and even of some sarcasm and even of some attack.

But Newfoundland could do with more Booth Reids. Newfoundland lvould he a lot better off if she had ten or a dozen or fifty or a hundred Booth Reids, that is to say, men in their own locality enjoying the loyalty of the people of that locality and using their strength and their energy to get things done for that locality, that is what Booth Reid has done. Now if at times he has p,one a little overboard he is not the first to go a little overboard- r<JL_NEARY: And he toill not be the last . MR. SHALUroon: - and he will not be the last to go a little overboard.

But far better a man tvho goes a little overboard than does not go anywhere, that does nothing, just loafs his life away and lives comfortahly,as Pastor Booth Reid could so well do. He could have lived comfortably 1dthout a worry in the world if he had been that kind of man, hut he is not that kind of Newfoundlander. I am not 8768

Hay 26, 1976 Tape 2936 PK - 3 Hr. Smallwood : in touch with the situation; the last I heard of the matter Pastor Booth Reid came to see me as the Premier of the Province for help and he got it, He ,;r.as assisted greatly in that by the present Leader of the Opposition,who was then the member for that constituency, and he gave strong support to Pastor Reid.

Now there were times when Pastor Reid would rather grate on our nerves, because he never- he ts something like the present member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. ''oodrow) 0 The present member for the Bay of Islands never gave us a moments rest 0 He wanted to get things done and he did them and just sent us the bill.

Well now,Pastor Booth Reid did much the same thing, and Newfoundland is all the better for having had that turbulent priest- ~·1ho was it said, would anyone rid him of this turbulent priest1-There were moments when I wondered who would rid me of that turbulent priest from the Bay of Islands and that other turbulent priest from Bide Arm. But Newfoundland could do with more men like th'a.t and not fewer. I support the prayer of the peti~ion, I am not sure what it is they are aski.ng for, but whatever it is Booth Reid wants it is not for himself. It is for the people of that fine community in Whtte RRy. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. ~IR. 'l'. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the prayer of the petition as presented'. by the member from Mount Pearl (Mr. l'lindsor). I thought it might be interesting to note that the member presented the petition and did it very wel~, but I do not recall him saying whether he supported the prayer of the petition or not. Anyway,bc that as it may,there have been a number of words said about the situation at Bide Arm here this afternoon and nobody is more m;rare of it than I am or than the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development.

I am glad he is npw in the House and he might have a word to say on the petition before it passes. MR. SHALLWOOD: The member might add, e Minister of Canada, the Hinister of DREE, the whole Canadian capital. 8769

11ay 26, 1976 Tape 2936 PK - 4 That is right. But anyway, Sir, there are a number of prohlems related to the proposed operation at Bide Arm, Mr. <ieorge Lee of the Extension Department of Hemorial University headed up a consultative committee to look into all of the aspects of the situation at Bide Arm and that committee has been working now for the past number of years. And it is only a few days ago I received the proposals that the comreittee finally came up with. I am sure the minister is AN BON. ·lm-ffiP.R : l~R . RIDEOUT: I thinl· . it is a couple of years the CoiT!llittee has been in·pror;ress.

I received the report of that Committee only a few days ago and I believe the !1inister of Industrial and Rural Development also has a C01JY of that report. I do believe that something will happen at Dicle Am in tne very near future, and I am certainly pushing for that whether it will be related to the fishery or not my guess is as p;ood as anybody else's. There have been a rumber of problems there in the r>ast. Certainly something needs to be done to provide jobs ann industry for that area; and in that spirit and in that light I certainly support the prayer of the petition. SOME l!ON.

J'iE}lBERS: Hear, hear! -· - i·!R. SPEAKER : ----- The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. PON. J. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has very adequately and responsibly summed up the situation. I have a fi~ responsibility to r,et some activity in the area. We are negotiating actively with "lr. Lee and his conmittee, and I hope that some concrete will result heneficial to the community. And his remarks were completely on the tar?,;et. I<Jl • SPEAKER: The hon. T.eader of the Opposition. 'IR . ROBERTS : ------ J1r.

Speaker, there are a number of capacities in which I should say a Herd in support of this petition, one of them is as th member who for nine or ten years had the privilege of representing the people who live in the communities represented in this petition, the people of Harhour Deep, I do not think it is called Great Harbour Deep 8770

May 21',, 1976 Tafle ~o. 293£> PK - 5 Mr. Robert~: any lonRer, ~t has not been for ten or twelv~ year~ ~o called, and the neoflle in Roddickton and the neoole in Bide Arm and Enp.lee. And also, of <:ourse, as the ~tentleman from TwillinRnte (Mr. !:mallwood) ment toned. a!4 well he rd~ht, as 11 m~mhrr t<hn has from time to time h11d occasion to be involved in transactions involvinr. Past~r Booth Rrid, certainlv a v~:ry uni.,ue man, and in manv wavs a man of the sort of sniri t we must h~e if we are t o Ret rural development and Ret development of this Province.

Mr . ~n~aker, I supoort the fletition of course, but T think I should add a note that nerhaos is relevant . I have heard recently from Hr. Reid and from other neonle in the B~de Arm - PnRlee area , and of course I have heen in close touch with my friend and collenRue the member for Baie Vrrte -White Bav (Mr. ~deout) who now renresents these communities. T am not sure that Pastor Reid i~ overlv invol.ved in this matter anv lonRer, and I say that because the r,entlem110 from ~fount Pearl (Hr. N. Windsor) in present1.nr. the net1tinn 1n hehalf of the Premier did not meetton Pa~tor Reid sorcifically.

Now T know that Pastor Reid took un the petition, because he called me as he does 'lUite freouently, a man who hns ll"arned the nowcr of the teleflhone and learned how to use it as an rffecttvr meAns of communication. HR. NF.ARV: lle told me there is 110' way he is thinking about giving un hi.s life's 1\arn:lnRS· 877 1 •·

ray 26, 1976 Tape 2937 IB-1 ~<n. JlOJlERTS : H~ll I appreciate that very much, Yr. Speaker. But I understand also that 1:d thin lli cle fTI". itself there has been a change in the structure of that community, the corpor<~.te structure of the enterprise. I have not seen the report to which the gentleman from Baie Verte-White Bay (l'r. Rideout) and the ''in-tster pf 1lural l)evelopment referred, but my understanrl5.np: is that ~'r. T'eicl is no longer directly involvec in the m<~.tter. That is not important. Tfuat is important is that the plant be made operational.

I was very glad to hear the ~inister of T'ural Development tell us that he is approaching it in a very positive and very straiphtforwarn manner and I think that is the right way to approach :1 t . He has for some time. ""1'. FIDEOUT: }IT'. P.OBF.T'T S: vy fr:l end from Baie ''erte-1\lhite Bay (}'r. P:l.cleout) just interrupted me to say that the minister has done this for some time, 11ncl I a.m not surprised but I at!' pleased. It in no way takes away from Pastor T'eid 's undoubted abilities and untloubted drive and energy.

I could l'eep the House for hours, }'r. fpeaker, ta) king of f'.-stor T'eiil who is a un~_ que man ancl a man of increrl:l.ble drive and energy and persistence and vision and ability and doggedness <tncl very Jl'Rny other very 1~orthwhile qualities. But, Yr. Speaker, the important thine is that the plant i.n Ride An!' he made operational. I would think it would have to be completed and it would have to be - MR. J)(lODY: Pe >-ras a great fan of l'r. Jamieson. !IJ' . !'OJlfl"TC:: He l'IBY very well be a great fan of Yr.

Jamieson. 1 <lo knm;.· that he ,,•as a great supporter and as far as I know is of a political party with which ~'r. Jamieson is not tmconnected. Bic1e ftrm in one election, Yr. Speaker, T can recall went 114 for one cro>rcl and zero for the other cro'-•d. The hon. gentlemen can fill in the name of tre han. crowc1 on each of the figures as they wish. The election before that, Sir, had ~one 112 to two and over the interven1ng period the people of Bide ~rm had found out in sort of 8772

~'<ty 2f>. 1976 :rape 2937 1"' . P013F.l'Tf:: an innueRt fori!' who the tHO people Here and ,Jo and behold! thP ile!"ocr<lt:lc proce5s ~mrked and tv-hen the results were counted the Ill-2 next time H Has 114 for one group or for one candidate and zero for the other c11n~irlate. }'r. Speaker, while pay:lng tribute to J'fr. Reid and deservedly so - ~IP,. DOODY: L~st raJl there was a change. }IT' • Tl0l\El'TS : Yes I think there were twelve or fourteen for the Tor:les - AN HON. }fJ\1-'IlF:T"I: I:l even. HP. ROBERTS: FJeven for the Tories and about 150 for the T.1berals 11'1St Fall.

There has been a p,reat switch to the Tory P<~rty, "r. Speaker, do~~ there. ~m SH!l''ONS: f:ounds 1 ike Alec Hickman. Yl'. RORFT'TS: It sounded, I am reminded, a little l:lke the Pinister of Justice's famous campaign in ~eal Cove in the Hermitage by-election when the Yinister of Justice managed to raise the Tory vote there, Sir, from thirty to nine and lower the Liberal vote from 112-was it? -to 342, I think, because of the l':lnister of Just1.ce 's effective speech on behalf of the the then Tory candidate,Yr. Bert J'feac1e.

If he had only stayed another day! liT'. ~T~'ONS: 10:1. rrmr:t>TS: But a little more seriously, ~·r. Speaker, the people of llic1e Arm and the area make a very worth"l<7hile request. There are very fe''' e!"ploytl'ent opportun:lt:les in the area. There :Is a potential :f.n the F:l de Arm sftuat ion. It is a potent:! aJ which should be developed to the fuliest and "'e on this side, Sir, and personallv vr:fth a heart and a half I would support any efforts to realize that potential.

I commend the minister and 1 urge h:f.m to proceec1 vdth all speed and I can assure him, Sir, that based on my dealings over the years with Pastor Jle:ICI. and ~'ith his other assoc.:l.ates in the area that the minister will literally Ret no peace nor rest until he ~eets the just and Jeg:ltimate aspirations of the people of that area. That is as it 8773

"av 26, 1976 should he and T ccTn!l'end it to the mtnister and 1 hope ~re t~ill h~.ve an early and si'.tisfactory conclusion of the ent5_rF! b.cidE' .nt, Sir. S0W. H0N. }"E'·'BEPS: Hear, h10ar! H!'. SPEI\KF.l1 : The hon. rnemher for Placen t 1 ?. . • '-'P. PATTEPSON: !-'r. Speaker, I wish to present q pctit!nn from eir,hty-one residents cf Fair Haven, Placentia Bay. The prayer of the petition reads, "This is a ,:>etj.ton in the intere~ts of t~.e people of Fair Haven.

This year as well as j_r; the? p11st y-o:~~s nor:- resident owners cf horses and cattle h2ve been b>:i.r:ginP. ~beit' anirncls to Fair H'!.ven ancl tt~rninf, them 1coc;e tc '"Oa!!l. ar:::<_m:l tha r.o'l"l'!ll.'nity for the Summer. This ltas been the cauRe of much to::-11'ent to the residents of the community a~': '"e::.l as s disgrace t0 the co=•Jnity itself.

"[,Te, the u.ndersignec1 want <>n end put to this pre.ctice. l,!e want e.J 1 ".nimaJ s in the community <::ha.t are the ~roperty of non- resident owners to b~ taken out of th~ comrnun:l.ty as scor'. c.s pnssible ?_r.d some steps taken to ensur~ tl)a~ suC'h a prectic·~ noes not reoccl\~ in the future. !,)e t;.-ust that action will be take'J. i!ll'J1ec:l !!tely on rE'ceipt of this petition." I requP.,:;t that this petition 1:-•, tablerl and referred to the nepartment concernen. }'l'. SPJ\AKET': The hon. me"\her for Trinity-Say De Verne. >•r.

SI'eaker, T wouJci like to support the petition prese!:l .ten hy the member for Plncent:!a (f-Ir. Patterson). The reason I am suppcrting it is not .iust because of the particular community that W".S meEtit)necl by the member hut this appears to be a problem in many comr.unities throughout the Province of Ne!••found1and and Labrador. I do not know vrhat the s:ltuation 1 s in Lahranor but certainly on the Island part of ou.,.

Province this is a very bir; problem, roaminp. cattle through t.l!€' various coJTlll'unities, walking through peop) e ' s vegetabJ e gnrcl~n..<; and front yarfls and what hnve you. tlow, ~'ir, I have wri.ttem or made a numbe.: of representations to both Y:lnil'ters of Forestry and Agr!cu3ture in conn~c~ion with try:'-ng to gain sol!"" asc:istance for ve.rious communities in crd~r tn enclose roa!'l:lng cows a.nd horses. In cnce instance the ::eply c8Fle back. that 8 ...... , I t 't

l'ay 26, 1971i Tape 2937 IB--4 !'11 .• RC1HE: ------ there was - I was w·riting on behalf of the community of Peart's r.ontent - anc\ it ~Jas suggested that there was a community pasture a .<; Victoria. I cannot remember the name of it now - Swansea. It was recommended that the people who had cattle in the Trinity South area could easily bring them across to Victoria in the l'wailsea community pnsture. But at the bottom of the letter, Sir, it was distinctly pointed out that no horses were allowed in that community pasture.

That is the main problem, roaming horses as well as co•rs throughout the various communities. I think it would be a good iC!ea, S:l.r, :If the Department of Forestry and Agriculture undertook to look into the possib:l .lity of not establishing the connnunity pastures in the sense that we have them now but just simply enclosures. There are a great nu~her of open areas in many of these communities.

If there was some sort of a fenoe put around these areas we could enclose the roaming cattle that are wandering through the various commun i.ties and destroying properties and are an extreme traffic hazar~ because most of the communities that we are talking about are not on the Trans--canada High~~ay but on main highways or truck roads. For that reason, Sir, I think there ~s a great need for building something other than what we now call a community pasture but a cattle enclosure for both horses and cows.

Now J do not know how compatible horses and cows are,but presumably if they can exist and co-exist on the streets of Heart's Content they can co-exist in some enclosure in the various communities, Sir. So it gives me a great deal of pleasure to support the petition and J hope that the ~linister of Forestry anc\ Agriculture could react to :It and probably give some indication of some other concept for the enclosinp: of such cattle. ~IT'. 'ROBF''TS: Well said, Sir. The hon. member for Bellevue. }'R • C'liLLAN: 1!r.

Speaker, it is not my intention to do any horsing around or anything but I ~mul d like to take the opportunity to have a few words to say in support of that petition. Myself and the hen. 8775

tay 26, 1976 Tape 2937 IB-5 ' <t! . I' .ALL&'\: member fp r l\ay ne \1er<le (Hr. Tlot~

e) who just sat: doW'!l \.-ere out: in the district of Pcellevue and also out in the district, part of the c\istr:lct of TrinHy-Bay T'e Verde a couple of weeks ai:o ancl we dropped into n home therP, had a cup of coffee on our way ho~ ~and a f.entleman had a phone call that his horse had just been ~illed by a car t or at least knocke~ down, a horse that he h~d for his daughter as a riding horse. It seeMed awfully strange to me that anybody wbo thought: anythin~ about the anima) would have it on the loose . But I think this is just one of many cases where there was no place really to keep the animal renned up.

While I am on the tC'Iric of horses and anill'.als I believe that it P.<'es deeper than that just roaminG horses .

I know in our Ow'Tl community we have the same problem . t~cler the existinr. legislation of ll'unicipa l 1tiPs it 1~ould cost a great neal of money to h:lre soJ~~eb ocly to , number one, Fence some kind of an impoundment to keep these animals which are on the loo.se somet:l11'es from other coJI!ll\unities , it would cost a l ot of money, of course,to feerl them and to keep an eye on them for that matter because I know in my own community when l was chai~an of th~ municipal government there a few years ago, 8776

May 2b,1976 Tape no. 2938 Page 1 - mw Mr. Callan. we did have a system whereby we caught the roaming horses and impounded them. But then we would pay somebody a nominal fee for doing so, usually bi~ boys. And those same big boys, when it got dark, vould go and let the horses out again so that they would get some money again tomorrow to put them back in. So there is a problem. While I am on this same topic,I think, you know, the dog problem we have in the Province is just as bad. Again I am talking from personal experience, you know, within municipalities.

You know the old saying that certain communities have gone to the dogs is quite literally true in many, many instances, in many, msny communities. So, Mr. Speaker, I think we need some kind of impoundment, community pastures or something for these roaming horses and cattle. ·And also, as I have said, I think we need some legislation to look after the problem as well, and especially to look after the problems that pertain to other animals such as, well dogs in particular. So I support the prayer of that petition, and hope that the government sees the light. MR. SPEAKER: MR.

ROUSSEAU: The hon. minister for Forestry and A2ricultura. Mr. Speaker, just a couple of words on the petition. I have received a number of representations fwom hon. members in respect to the keeping of horses on regional pastures. We have an amount in this year's budget, some $441,000 for maintenance, and $300,000 for capital expenditures on regional pastures. Regional pastures are intended, Mr.

Speaker, to assist the agricultural entrepreneur for greater production of milk and the growth of other livestock, But certainly it is not the ineention of the programme as it now exists to keep horses for people who may be using them for any number of purposes, mostly which may be recreational. And we have a certain amount of feed available on the pastures , an• in the opinion of the department of the government at this time the pastures will be put to better use in respect to livestock, be they sheep or cattle. But we will certainly take a look at it. It is a matter again of how many units we 8777

May 26, 1976 Tape no. 2938 Page 2 Mr. Rousseau; can put on a pasture, whether or not - I never said,by the way, nor would I want it to have been heard that horses and cattle will not get along together. I do not think that reason was ever Riven. That is not a fact. The fact is that a pasture can only accommodate so many animals, and our first responsibilitv, in our opinion, is to the agricultural people in respect to livestock and not in respect to horses.

Also I might mention by the way, and I brought it up the other day, and there was some sort of a sudlP permeating the House when I introduced the act respecting dogs which is now on the Order Paper, Order 21, Bill No. 7, which I think is of extreme. importance, and I am very happv to see that the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) agrees with me that this is very important act in respect to the livestock production in the Province. Many of the communities do not have the power to enforce dog regulations.

We would hope by this act to be able to do that and hopefully it will be passed in this session of the House. Then we will be in a better position to control dogs in the areas. So we will certainly take a look at the request from my colleague and friend from the area of Placentia (Mr. Patterson) and also from the other people who made the same sort of request from the department. But, as I say, it is a matter of economics. It is a matter of space. It is a matter of availability.

And our first responsibility has to be to the bona fide and true farmer who is using the cow or sheep or any other livestock for production purposes in respect to an agricultural endeavour. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. HR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition to the House on behalf of some fifty residents of the Healey's Pond road area in Conception Harbour who are asking that the road be upgraded 8778

May 26, 1976 Tape no. 2738 Page 3 - mw Hr. Doody~ and perhaps paved during the coming season. They point out very correctly that the ball park, and the playground and the recreation area is on that road, that there is a gravel pit in there, whtch certainly increases the dust hazard, and they note the various amounts of vork that have been done in the area during the past few years, and the other parts of Conception Harbour, Kitchuses, and Bacon Cove, and they ask that the same consideration b.e given to them. UR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARX: MR. DOODY: Gallows Cove.

That is in Harbour Main, not Conception Harbour. I thought you were talking about the whole area, No, no, just the town of Conception Harbour which includes Kitchuses and Bacon Cove and Silver Springs. You know the place. You were up around there. AnywRy, Sir, I certainly support the petition and I would heartily recommend it to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition as presented by the hon. member for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr. Doody).

I am quite sure that he has the same problem as anybody else with second-class roads in many areas, and quite a number of people using them. Apparently there are quite a number of recreational areas involved, and I think it certainly should be looked at. I, therefore, have much pleasure in supporting the petition. NOTICES OF MOTION: l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation Act" (Bill No . 72): and a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation Act," (~! .!:!_ N~ . 67). 8779

Hay 26, 1976 Tape no. 2938 Page 4 - mw HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Justice. MR. HICKHAN: Hr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Strengthen Security Measures In Respect To Private Property." (Bill No. 66) ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR \VHICR NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. ~1R. HAYNAlUl: Mr. Speaker, Question No. 362 on the Order Paper of sometime ago that was asked by the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood), I find that it is almost impossible to get an answer for it, but l will give some information on it.

The question was: "How many recommendations were made to the government in each of the financial years 1970-1975 by the Newfoundland Federation of Labour and how many of these have been accepted and acted upon by the government?'' The only records we have, of course, are the briefs that have been presented to the government aver the years by the federation, and out of these it is shown that a total of 218 recommendations were submitted to the government, many of them which were repetitions year after year, but many which were related to departments other than the Department of Labour, as it was,or the Department of l~npower and Industrial Relations: And there is no possible way that we can determine exactly what recommendations have been implemented or acted upon by other departments without a great deal of research and a great deal of time.

It would have to be a question that would be aimed to all departments as opposed to just the one. I am sure the hon. member is aware when the federation presents a brief, presents a recommendation, they present it to the Cabinet, and , of course, the recommendations are not the responsibility of any one department. It is the responsibility of any relevant department that may be mentioned in the brief at that time. It would take a great deal of research and more time than we have to find out which ones have been implemented.

But I suggest that quite a number of them have, especially in relation to labour legislation, as many at least as we can possibly implement , and there will be more implemented in the ~uture. But th~ number itself is a total of 218 that we have been able to find so far in the briefs that have been submitted. 8780

May 26, 1976 Tape No. 2938 Page 5 - lilY MR. SMALLWOOD: Is that number a net numher• Is the same recommendation was made over several years, it is still only counted as one? MR. MAYNARD: MR. SPF.AKF.R: MR. HOUSF.: Yes. The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, the 8781

... , ., t•'7'- Tone ~o . 2!>39 ··• . i!f\!"'T: rr-tout"st V~" $t<'t'o.l :lv from the hon . .,eMhl'r for l<'"tin:'. ~>rorr,,"T,,. or t'u' :-.cner:ll educational development N'' - 1 ''n<: til's is , (or the benefit of t he !'ousc , :1 CPI":11erci:tl r•rOflr<llnMC o~ inLern ;,t iona: stnt11s a~(! <>e rent the tests yoarly fror: ,, fil'"l" i'l t"~" :·nl:ed States , antl the principle is t h:'lt a lot l'.: ucation 1n:t L11e ra ~ u:-E' of tl,el r ~~orl<. has r,ivet'l tile!ll a very r."n·' E'rluc.1tion ,:~ n < ' as <1 ri'Sult t'lis test is given nn<= if they rench a cer tJlif' l<'vei t'I"Y \lill obt:~ in a grade elov<>.n diplom a ,.r :1 -:ra<'e ten , hnt·Jever l!i.~h t ' •ey score on t he rro~ramme . :"n J ~"r there wen• 1,7" pP<>ple who wrote tl-ls test lltt.l ~'ll flf them rcco~ved a gr:~de eleven equival cnc:,•, :m<! r'i·: not qu :~Hfy .1t :~1 J .

J\ml t he pt!onJP tnk'lng pt\rt in t hat rnn~ecl in :\1'.<'~ (rnn nineteen years to fift y-five vean; of 3&"· T'1ls l~in.l of 3 •'ln 1onn t h:u: t:u·y c<'t is acccrted by universiU<'I: pa i'L:1 of till' n,.ovhc:- , <'OI'''OCi:llly fo r thosc- pe(lp)Ci' of coarsE' •• t t' t''"ol· rn r r .ir. 1 !. . !'!ut 1 H!Cnust.' t''1Ct."~ are certain pockets of the Province where it seems are not being reached and we a~:e puttinJl, 8782

Tape-. No. 2930 rr'f - 2 'ffi. Sl'EfiKT'R: Ttc hon. "inister of ><unicipal flffairs ani! }lousing. ''R. T>F.Cr.Fmm: -..,. Sr>eaker, I 1<rould like to table the answers to 'luestions mnnhc>r f-17, askecl l'Y the han. member for Le1.risportc (''r. F. 1fuitc). 1'511, ~skcc1 hy the han. member for C::1.rhone::~r (l'lr. R. ~loores), l'i5], asked by the han. meml:Jer for r:arhonc>.:'lr ('.fr. 11. '!oores) ani! I table these answers. l'rn. S'PEAKER: 'rhc hon. ~linister of Justice. MJl. HI Cl~AN: I would like to give, Mr. Speaker, the ons1ver to question number l'i'l, asked by the han. the member for T1vi llin~ate ('·!r.

C:malhmod), on the Order Paper of November 21·, 1975, directed to the han. Premier, is that this intention has been largely implemented by the enactment of the t1m acts relating to the operation of the Ne1vfoundland Liquor Commission and the Liquor Licensing Board and appeals from 1.rhich at"e :"llo~<rec1 to t 11c Supreme C:ourt of 'lewfoundland. ~1R. C:ROSlliE: near! Hear! Hear! Hear! MR.

HICKMAN: The ans~rer to 117, ar,ain by the han. zentleman from T•ri] linr,ate (Mr. <;maJ.lwooil) is that there are nn additional ch.~r~es levLC'cl outside of the contract, a cony of .1-1hich contr::tct nns ti\hlecl J,y me sol'le months ago in response to and in ans1ver to question nunbcr l:J'l, and I table the ans~.;rers to question n~ ~n~ ~uestion 57~.

H~. rl"]"Al(l'T': T'H• 'ton. ''inister of Tndustr:f.~l ltn<1 Rural T)evelopment. r:u<'st:ton ntll"lJcr "11', nsJ,..,r1 hy thP ron. mcml,<>r fnr T"al'oil.e ('!r. ~10ary) '!',_ic'' T "!-><'licv<"' '·'!l.S nr~>nar<'n for me lnst 'lnve"\1-er and I thour,ht T h:1rl 1.t taJ-.J f'd. So my apologies if it was not tabled, if it tnhJ eel then I a"l rloinr: it for the secon•l time. '1T.M~'.': T d•l not rr>c0llcct t!1nt one. About the "l'T:f and infrastructure agreements. "· "Pr:tr·:l'!': The l1on. 1'1nister of :Mines .:mel. F.nerr:v. 8783.

. . ,.. .... ... ---• • •• l 'c "'<""t'c•·: r.:ll"l' ,cr 123 of the Order Paper dated ('':- . lb:11Jwoo <'~ . The question asked for the average rate ~ .. ~··e rer)n I 1"f'"1 7" an.: t'•<' cstiJ •nted rate :' nf cn:>~>U:'I~ t:!or. in the period 1976 1990. The answer "ls nrior to 1967, the load t '•• J <'llf l r•n• !' :":: i onnl :wcr.:lA'' of .ius t ove r scvc11 nc-r ccl-:1 t . Th" , .... ,. '"" r:-tr• ... r ~ ¥1',·t>, in tntaJ cnnsumpttnn or e1cctri.c:tl <'n<"t"'!)' ~ r ice:> c>f elec tricity :!.n rl:r "rovinc" ,r "ubli c lltil it!"s :m •l !~; nv:~i.lnh lc for ax::u'linnt1nr .

Tn other ,.,,,...,l<:sioncrl' ,_ c "nl•li.c- t'ti 1 i t '!c-~ l·,.ers t f'l\fk of increases in -,.c:>i 1 '"1rlcC's 11ml if t!-:e hosl . gcntlc-~son tJ~nts to cont:~ct the ~-;'·"-! hy :he- lion . mcrn!•cr for 7'H1 tltngatc ('•r . C:tMll\loocl) , The ouestion '· ,,..,. it :~.'1:; he<'!' or :1~ '·,;opn !":ire<' \ts incc-otf.on7 ...,,,. 'll"!!wcr io;

'!ny 21', l 971' Tape No. 2F'39 'ffi. CROSf.IF.: "n thP. Order Paper of Novemhcr ~~~th., 1!175, Qu{!stion number 1111 , a1>l~ed hy t~e hon. member for 'J'wil l tngate (Mr.. Smnlbmorl) , a stl\tel'lent nsl:ec' for the rntC'.s charr;ed by Nev7foundland and Labrador T'ower Corporation anrl/or Commission for electricity sold to Newfoundland Li~ht and Power Company Limited in each of the financial years 1!?7'l-1 °75. The ansvrer is that from April 1st., 1%9 to October 31st., 197:'.

"•ith respect to the first ~,251'),001) J~j] mJatt hours per months at four mils per li:ilowatt hour, with nl l the excess at six mils per kilowatt hour; from November lat., 1972 to '1ar.ch 31st., 1':175 six mils per kilowatt hour for all energy; From AnrU 1st., 1"75 to December 31st., 1975,9.7 mils per kilowatt hnur. for n]l enC'rr:v. On the flrdE'r l'aner of November :!l,th., 1075, question nuT" her llf0, asked '>y the hon. member for 1\rillinp,ate (~r. Smalhmod).

The question is for a st~tement showinp for each financial year from 1971'1 to 1°75 the rate charged to the consnmln~ public for. electricity hy Nev7fonnd] anr.l J,ight and Power Company I.imiterl, or any ot'l-ter t>lectric;o] or other utility company. The RnRHPr i R t'l-tt~t information re)~,.rdin<' rates ch;orpPrl to the const~inp: ,...nhl 1 c for e] ectricity 1->y Newfounnlanrl T,ight ;mn "Power r.onmany I.1miten or :mv othpr el.t>ctr1.cA1 or other utilitv company 11> on·file with the Hoard of Commissioners of Public Utilities and is availahle for cxamin::ttion thP.re. MR.

NEARY: Is tht" minister going to table this? NP. . CR.OSllif.: Yes. ·m I : \,. NEARY: Hhy are you going to table it? 'lR. CRClSTIIF.: necause this is important information T ,.;rant to p,lve hon. gentlemen of the House, who might not otherwise have a ch.'lnce to get the information. 'IR. NI'..ARY: It \dll he in Hansard. '!P.. CROSBIE: Hill Hansard have it? All right then I will speed it up. I also have the answer, ~1r. Speal~er, to question number 75~, on the Order J'aper of ~'ay 3rd., asked by the hon. member for 8785

7npe 'lo . "fi111 ··:· c:,..n~::r~: '!T ·\~~y: You 1 1tiV~ co r,i.ve the ans1.•er to th~t. 'I" ('"1'';!\J' ' : ,lo )IOU ~•nnt me to Tc:l..! this on::-? Ml\ . ~:EARY: \ ~ ... ,t :is it? " ll . c:nr!:ntr: ""1is is ahout cost Ol'r corcl of tranSf'OTtir~ wood from C:oose C:w , the l.incr1.>o<:.n1 " ill in !i tenhl'nv1.11~ . '"tt,....,i~!' nnd -;ti'\' N~orin:- only .:lTP. requiret! fo r the purpose I> f : tnr.\/Ct' j nr t '11' :thovc 'liii'Stion , Answer · t!le COst per core\ tn tr:t:'ISfl i'ITl ·, •nn~ fro•' l'oosl' r.:~y co t!H'!

Lincr!l oar •' )'iJ.l in "". r.r0snrr::~" · "'' · 'T''1i.s •:i ll 1'1' tnhlcd ,.;n t he 1-Jo!'. :;ontJem nn ·: 111 <:r-t t'lc con:: ,. ~ 1. ~. "'he .,., t·v.,jr: ... C"St C''>J .!:'• · •:ood rcevclinr. and handl ir..r, In 1975-76 loadi n~ - ""'"' n,. . .. Loading costs went down that year . The l·l'c"lll"" r.'11'" ~I'· more efficient hanAJ C'rs or nushl'rR of >mo •. r·•cvclln" m<' ll::n•'1inr "1.'ol . !melT t~ill tat.le thl' :tnst•Pr 8786

rlay 2(, , 197fi ~1R. S PEAK!\R : ?·'R. F. Rm.TE : Tape 2940 PK - 1 OP-AL QUESTIONS The hon. member for Trinity Bay de Verde . ~ 1r. Speaker, a question for the llinister of Justice, Sir, and instead of asking a series of supplementaries I think I will just put the various questions to him on the same subject now because 1 think he is going to have to undertake to get the answer. Is the ~inister aware of the fact that at least in the Trinity South area, Winterton and New Harbour and Cavendish, Hopeall and these areas that there is some confusion over who owns the. old ~ewfoundland railway ] and in the area.

They do not know whetlier it is gone to the CN or whether it is gone back to the Crown or what have you? So could the minister undertake to find out what the status of that old Newfoundland railroad land is now in the particular area. And is he aware of the fact that some people feel that there is an on-r,oinp court case concerning the disposition of that particular land? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~!inister of Justice. HON. T. ALEX lliCKM.A,'l: ll'fr. Speaker, I am not aware of any of the facts relating to this alleged problem. If there fs a matter before our courts it would presumably he a civil action.

MK.ROWE: But we do not know. It is a rumour. !>.!R. IUCK'1AN: That is a matter over which my rlepart~ent has no jurisdiction nor do they have any knowledge thereof. · But I will make inquiries to see if we have any records in the Department of Justice indicatinr, the ownership to the right-of-way to the old Trinity Bay, the Hearts Content branch. MR. ROHE: Yes, it i s not Reid railway, the old Newfoundland Railway. MR. HICKMAN:_ The Newfo·~ndland Railway. And t~e qcestion~as I understand it, ~fr.

Speaker, is whether the title vested in the Canadian National Railways under the provisions of the Terms of Union between Newfoundland and Canada, ron I right on? ~m. ROWE: And whether you can buy back from CN or whether - MR. HICKMAN: Hell that Hould be a matter of policy, Mr. Speaker, for the CN, I do not know what their policy is with respect to the 8787

Tave Z940 PK - 2 "R • 111 CKHII '7 : ------- rl1!'<nosit1on or sa]r of vroperty, but we will work assiduously and clll i~<'ntly to f:fnc1 th<' an~n•er . .:::_r._. __ r<~yr.: !I surrlementary. :_~P~V,l'R: A supplementary. "!'. ROHE: ----- Hell, Mr. Speaker, in view of the answer.- I was not !Wing to ask ,, supplementary - but would the minister think it 1-muld desirable tha·t the CN land, if CN owns it,that it be revC'rtC'd hac!< to the Crown here in Newfoundland. Would not that be " cles:frable situation ratlter t11an having CN hold it as a piece of The han. ~finister of Justice. t'r.

Speaker, that Hill requlre even further research . Tfw CJllC'St1on thrr<:> 1vould he Fhether or not the Crmm in the right nf "'c~<foundland has the right to exprop;-iate land from the CroHn in the rirht of Canada, and/or held by the CN which is a Crown corporntion. And Hithout heing presumptions I would suggest that 1'e have not the right to do it, and it would only come to pass as :1 rC'!'<nlt of peaceful persuasion.

And may I draw to the attention of the hon. gentleman that the member of Parliament for that area is '' m<Jn of considPrahle influence in Ottal>!a, ancl J am sure that if he hrour.ht 1 t to t1w nttention of the llinister of Transport be would innuire of the Cnr.f!cUa.n National Railway as to 1;hether,as a matter of ro1!cy, they arc prepare.-! to sell land along the abandonecl rir,ht- of-lvay of TrinHy South which they acquired,presumably for nothing, at the tiMe of the union of Ne,~foundland and Canadn. ~ill. ROWE: ------- I have another supplementary for the Minister of Jm;ttce. "R. SPF.!IKER: A supplementary.

The hon. member for Twillingate. 'IR. J. R. ~.~f/\LLhTOOD: J~r. Speaker, can the Attorney General tell 11s 11hcther or not she>rtly aftcr,a yeRr or two years,the coming of C.onff'<1Prat ton, the Government of Canada were supplied by the C.nvernmcnt of Newfouncll.n.nc\ with a list of the properties of one kind ;md ;qnother, passecl over by Newfoundland to the Government of Canada 8788

Tape 291,0 PK - 3 'lr . Sl'lallwood: consistinr, ~f buildings ~nd other kinds of property, was that not done? And wouJd not a copy of that be in the files? ~a would not consultntion of those files show whether the land in question was passed ove r with the railway to the Government of Canada, in view of the fact that there was no railway there when this was done, thnt the railway had di sappeare d , that the rails had been taken up nnd there was no railway years and years before the coming of Confeder11tion.

In other words , would not the records of the properties possed over, transferred, the title to which was transferred to the Government of Canada, which was required to be done, would not th~se rec<'rds show whether the title to that land 1•as in fac-t passed over to the Government of Canada , not to the CNR, nothins wns passed over by Newfoundland to the ~,as the minister will agree , it was passed over to the Government of Canada which then in turn entrusted the operation of the railway to a company owned by the Crown namely the Canadian 'ational ~ail way Company. 8789 ,.

Hay 26, 1976 Tape no. 2941 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot quite remember now where the hon. gentleman for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) started, but if there was a conveyance - and there probably was - from the C~vernment of Newfoundland to the Government of Canada of land required by the Government of Canada for federal public work services, then a record of that would either be in the Department of Justice, but if it was in 1950 or 1951 it would be very difficult and time consuming to locate these records.

On the other hand,I would assume that the Government of Canada,in the event of a conveyance; .': would have registered same in the Registry of Deeds for Newfoundland. What the relationship is between the CNR, which is a crown corporation, and the r~vernment of Canada I do not know, and what they did with that land,if they indeed acquired it, because as the railway had been abandoned prior to 1949, which it was, it is quite conceivable that CN had no interest in it a·t all, and maybe it was not a part of the

schedule setting forth the properties that were conveyed by the Government of Newfoundland to the Government of Canada, But it is in the - what is the area? - Greens Harbour area, and I will see what information we have and will furnish it to the hnn. gentleman from Trinitv - Bay cle Verde (Mr. Rowe). Mil. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPaile. - --- Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Hinister of Justice in connection with the Ombudsman.

Apart from the special report that the Ombudsman has made to the House of Assembly in connection with access to the records at the Waterford Hospital, could the minister tell the House what other action the government has taken to expand the terms of reference of the Ombudsman,to amend the Provincial Ombudsman Act to give the Ombudsman more jurisdiction over municipalities, boards, crown corporations and so on? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Justice. HR. HICKMAN: -·---- Mr. Speaker, that is a matter of government policy. The report that was submitted to this han.

House by the parliamentary commissioner, as he is obliged to do in that he is a servant of this House and not of government, raised- the supplementary report - raised a 8790

May 26, 1976 Tape no. 2941 Page 2 - mw 11r • Hickman . Question of the right of access to records of the Waterford Hospital in view of the recent decision of Mr. Justice Noel of the Supreme Court of N~wfoundlan~. I have asked officials in my department to direct their attention to the question as to whether legislation is required in this instance or whether it can be done by regulation. Insofar as the second part of the question from the han. gentleman fro LaPoile (Mr •.

Nearv) is concerned, that is a matter of government policy, and I am not in a position to articulate government policy~th respect to any legislation, and that most assuredly would require legislation,in my opinilan 1 and what the government's p~licy is with respect to legislation which may come before the House in the future. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr.

Speaker, As the chief law officer for the Crown, for the Province, would the minister indicate to the House if this decision of the Supreme Court will restrict the Ombudsman in anyway, shape or form in gaining access to records of other boards and other crown corporations~ · Will the Ombudsman find himself now in a bind and be hamstrung in getting records? Or has the minister asked for any information on this particular matter? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICK!.<1AN; Mr. Speaker, I am speaking from recollection nww, and that is all dangerous.

But my recollection is that the Waterford Hospital Board was created pursuant to the provisions of

an act which was passed in this legislature around 1970 or 1971 governing hospital boards generally. There was a s~parate act for the General Hospital Corporat~on two years before that,but I believe that was repealed. I am not c~rtain of that. Anyway it is a matter of public record. If there are several other boards governed by the same act 8791

May 26, 1976 Tape no. 2942 Page 1 - mw Hr. Hickman: thea the same restriction - hospital boards,that is - then t.he same restriction would prevail with respect to these boards as well. But that will only be answered after I get an opinion as to what procedure, if any, is required. ~nd if it is decided by this House - and that could make, I suspect, for some agonizing debate as to where you pass the line of absolute confidentiality which is so essential in hospitals similar to that of the Waterford Hospital, and allow people to have access to it.

It is not a situation where, in my opinion, you can simply say, this should be done without any further consideration. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: Is this a supplementary? MR. NEARY: No, I am dissatisfied with the minister's answer, Mr. Speaker, and I wish to debate the matter tomorrow afternoon during the Late Show. MR. SPEAKF.R: !1R. FLIGHT: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. lfr. Speaker, this question is to the Minister of Tourism. He referred to the Provincial Parks in his ministerial state~ent.

I have noted over the weekend that there are a lot of Provincial Parks open, but there are a lot of Provincial Parks that are not open. W11at are the criteria? You know, why are some parks not open and there appears to be no effort to open the parks? You know, were all the parks to have been opened on one date or is the location of the park a consideration? Would the minister please clarify the situation? MR. SPEAKER: ~m. HICKEY: The hon. Uinister of Tourism. Hr.

Speaker, there is no difference in our policy with regards to parks this year as compared to any other year with the exception of the conditions of the particular park. And the same policy applies as has applied for many years and that is based on the conditions in a park, it is determined whether or not it will be opened on May 15. Usually that is the date that parks open in the Province. 8792

May 26, 1976 Tape no. 2942 Page 2 - mw Mr. Hickey. We have been able to open most parks in the Province this year on that date. However, some are not open. And the information that I have is that conditions in those parks prevented them from being opened on May 15. However, I am also advised, when I questioned as to the date the remaining parks would be open, I was told not later than the last of May or the first of June. So I assime that those parks that are not opened are closed at the moment for the obvious reasons, road conditions, reparis being made to roads, flooding, etc. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. ~llt. STRACHAN : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for my friend, the hon. Minister of Tourism. Could the minister tell us whether his department carries advertising in national journals and national magazines promoting the tourist industry of this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~Unister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, a number of magazines. MR. STRACHAN: ----- A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

STRACHAN: Could the minister then explain to us why the May 17 edition of Macleans carries advertising specifically for this Island Province and specifically for this Island people ann with no mention of Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.,Minister of Tourism. MR. lUCKEY: Mr. Speaker, whenever I get a question from my hon. friend, I hesitate because usually there is a supplementary question coming afterwards. I have - and I commend him for that having sat over on that side for five years - I have no explanation for my hon. friend. I must say that I am surprised, indeed amazed, to hear his comment.

I certainly can advise him that I will attend to it forthwith and find out why. Because certainly it is not in keeping with the policy of my department to promote the Island as opposed to the Provdmce. 8793

tlay 26, 1976 Tape no. 2942 Page 3 - mw ~~r. Hickey. No>! we do not place as much emphasis on certain parts of the Province, and certainly that is not confined to the Labrador area. I can think of a number of areas in the Province simply because accommodations are not yet available. The tourist industry ;onrl the ••hole :~reR of Tourism is not developed to the extent that we want it to be before we go out and promote it. 879't

]'!fly 26, 1976 Tape 2943 IB-1 J 'P • HI CKI'.Y : But I can assure my hon. friend and the people of Labrador that there :Is no del:l.herate attempt to exclude Labrador. In fact we certainly J ook upon it and acknowledge that it is nne of the areas, and probably the most attractive area wit)J. the greatest potential in the entire Province. I'P. STPACHJ\N: A further supplementary, Yr. Speaker. I aro not qnite sure,but the minister is stating then that :If this :Is correct and he looks into :It he ~•:!1.1 change this policy of ac1vert:lsinr;. }!J'. SPEAKE)': }'P. HICKEY: The hon. }'inister of Tourism.

I certainly will, }rr. Speaker. As I indicated I am surprised that the hon. member raises this point and I urn unaware of it. If I find out that indeed this has been done-I am not aware of any such pol:lcy. In fact many, many times ~•e have discussed Labrador i.n my department ~v:l th officials. They are very clear on what government's pol:fcy is. Government's pol:! cy is that ~'c acknowledge fully the potential of Labrador and that we in no way want to exclude or :f.ndeed play clown the great potential that .:Is there.

Now we do not go out,as I indicated,and do a first-rate _1oh of promoting .it because we think it voulcl be certainly not of gooc1 t:fnlinr; to rlo so because of the lack of facili.t:fes at the moment. l"P.. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the f1ppositi.on. "'!'. "RI')Bf:PTS: '-'r. f:peaker, I have a further question for. the l'in:lster of Tourism. The t:le v.'hich he iR wearing, is 1t an official t:le? I'R. LllNDRTGi\N: I asked for one myself. 1m rmw.nrs: Tt is a love] y t:l.e. I think every member should - is it an official tie? It is one that is given out by the Province, am I correct? ~-- HICKEY: No, no. I'P.

TIOBERTS : Hell,may I ask from where the tie comes first of all. T have a reason for it. }'P . Rlr.KEY : 1m. noonY: l'r. Speal<er, I - Are these soup stains? 8795

l'ay 26, 1976 IB-2 '!I": • T1I (1(E.Y: This is just not my day for questions. I have to say that,first of all,it is an official tie, yes. It bears the crest but they are not given out. ~~ • ROBERTS : Now I ,.7111 ask a supplementary question. Could the r.rf.ni>'ter tell us what is WT:I.tten on the tie? They are on sale,are they not? ~~- NflLAN: ~IT'. IIICKF.Y: I have noted this with interest too, Yr. Speaker~and thfs is one of the reasons wby I picked up a sample of it. I notice :1 t :1 s 1 Ne<o'foundland~ But then again this is not an official tie.

The Leader of the Opposition - "" 'PORV'TS : 1n: • JJTr..JQ'Y : The min:! ster just said :l.t was an official tie. It :Is not, }fr. Speaker, an official t:le pnt out by th :1 s r:overnl!'ent or on behalf of this Province. It i>' on sale down town, is it not? }'1l. NflLAN: 1'R. HICKEY: The tie is on sale at Bowring Brothers and the cost is $7.50 each and they come in shades of blue, green and brown and I accept no responsib1Jity for them other than the fact that I like the colour ancl T like the material and I will see to it if it is possible that :It is change<! to 'Ne,·rfoundland and Labrador~ ~·r..

ROBFPTS: He aitm:!.re the minister's taste. ~'r. Speaker, a further supplementary.

In admiring the m:ln:lster's taste and in welcoming his news,may I ask him whether the p:overnment - T. 'Mean I accept the fact the tie is a co!TI!Tlercial venture, not one that js :Inspired hy he and his officials - woulrl the min1ster telJ us "~ether the manufar.tures of this t:!e~or Bowring Brothers T, 1mitr-it as th.e vendors of :1 t, have been 1 icensecl 1->v the Province to us<' our prov:!.ncfa1 crest hecause of course that crest, fir, the ropvripht to that crest is veste~ in the government of this Province. ,., • JTTC:KF.Y: A very appropriate question, Hr. Speaker. I can Rive a very definitive answer.

The answer is no. I was rnaite aware of t~e fact that the tie was on sale and quite sincerely and quite honesty it wss one of the reasons that I askeit that one of them be pid·erl up. T a!'l nssurecl that no permission has been )!rantecl. T 8796

'ny 26, 1976 Tnpe 2943 T!l-) 'T . mr 'Ir: : know e>f , in f<tC't, no instance w:t>.ere permission hal' been granted to a nu~ber e>f f~rms. But ·this ~atter ·le are aclclressinr, out"e ves to at the moment to deterndne .1nst Yhst the sit11ation is and what mighr h ~ don to plAce some ~inr of control on this kind of thfnp.. }~ . rnRJ::PT ~: l e own i now. He own the copyr:l r;ht to the crest. 1'. ~PF:AI<Er. : The hon. me.mher for LsPoile . 'r.

Speaker, I w ould like to a sk the ~fin:tster of Health if 1t j s c.orrect that there is a sm;pl us of nursing assistants in this Province at the pre!lent time. and 1-1hat the min:lster is doing about this situation? 1' . SPEMF.P: The hon. lin:i.ster of Health. II . mtLINS: l'fr. Speaker~ there have been a number of nursW.g assistants graduated by the College of Trade .s and Technology and from some of the hospitals across the Province. The best information which J have been able to get would indicate that possibly too many have been trainecl in terliS of the jobs avl);ila:ble this year.

I do not know what the reasons for that are 1 possibly because of the salaries offered ., some of th·ose young women are holding onto the jobs longer than they normally would. There could be other reasons of course also. But at any rate it is something. which we have referred to the newly establiShed manpot~er coiiiDiitte .e and hopefully we will be able to f;l.nd out what the reasons are and what action we should. take in future years. 797 . ...

l'K - l :.~·-1'.!'~ A Slll'lll'1mentary . 2. _J_l~ ~!oul rl thP minister tell us •..:herE< the cuts in tho ~"''uc tion ln thr nuoucr of classes wi.ll tal-.e place, whether it will h,. i.n the C'oller.c of Trades or ir o~her hospitals in 'evfoundland? \'!her~> Pill the reduction in th<' num\.ler of students in the classes tal ·e fll;"tce? ~lo ul<! the minister give us that inform;t tion at this tire? Tle hon . ~'inister of tcnlth . .. ., II . COLLirS: - 'lo, vr. Speake r, 1 certaioly c3.nnot provide t!tnt information at this tine .

TI1ere has been SOI".C consultation wj th the ~'•'rnrtment of r.t!ucati on s;oc only <leAlinr, with the numbers •..:!tich should 1" tr~rn.-rl hu t nl!lo 1d,t!t rcspl:!ct to the curriculum. I will certainly r~k,. notlc,. of thl' 'llll:'!<tion and sec if 1 can fin<l out for ~he hon . ~!P . ST'r.AKI:P: A suprlC'r>entary . Vf! ._E.r.ARY: Would the ministe r indicate t o the House if there is :1 ni'N! nou or a sttrplus of lah technicians and x-r::~y technicians in t'•" Province? !-'herr <In I.'P stan<l on thesl' two classi ficrtions? l'r. cprJWJ'P : The hon . ' 1 i.ni~ter of l!ealt!1 . --.. ----- · "r. l.

C:OLLUlf.: ·--- ----- ::o. ~lot to my lmowledge, ••r . Spe,ak er, l>uc 1 rdll crrtntnly cake no ti.cc of it . t am faMilia r with thc> nursin~ aide !!Huntic>n . But with rer,.utl to the other profcss!ons 11hich the hon. r••·"'l·•·r rPfc>rs to I :.un nc>t ;:t\I:'I T P of auy shorta[le or any surplus . Tl ,. he>n. 1'1Cr.lber for Burgeo-Bay (I' Fspoir fol"lnwec! hv the hon. mt•mbcr r or llc] levu('. ~·r . f.rc:lkl:' r, T havt: a ctuestion for the l'lnistcr e>f TrHiuHtri.al n,.v,•lopment . It is a question ~thich T. askerl on the " ' i: . of April, aml on the Jrd . of ••ay .

J ltonder if he hns had the •'l'l'<' rtimj tv to pe-t the an~wcn: . It relates to the l;~nd free?.e in the ''·:l'' ru) ls :ll"f':l . • Ill . SPF'J\KFR: -·---·- -- 'l'hc hon. >ti.n:lste r of Industrial nrt! r.urnl ncvclorment. .!:_'l]'. .J . l,lf!ol' li'!ICAN: Jlr . Sp<>:tker, the Fede r al C.overnment have no 8798

}'ay 2f>, 1971i Tape 2944 PK - 2 ~~-·-- Lundrigan: impediment to the federal project planned at the moment which involves the depot or the facilities for launching or dispatchi.ng ships relatiug to control and the like. 1m. SI~0N~: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. "R. SPEAKF.R: A supplementary. I!R . SUllfONS: I wonder woula the minister indicate- he referred to thv. project beinr; undertaken by the Federal Government - I wonder would the m:ln:lster ind:l.cate what involvement his department has had or is having with the planning for this centre announced some time ago hy the Federal r.overnment? MR.

SPEAKF.R: ------ The hon. ~lin is ter of Indus trial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGM : Hr. Speaker, unfortunately pretty near no :Involvement. At my request the officals of the department contacted the Director General of the Department of the Environment for the Province , the Federal Departntent here in the Province, and indicated our willingness, desire and hoped intentions of becoming involved, at least in the planning. l"e Here advised that, but I guess we \~ere not told that we should not be involved, but we have not been involved,let us put it that way.

Fe felt that we should have been involved at least to the point of having the d:lscussions with us because we might have had some input of some nature or another that might have been relevant. Also in our own determination as a Province to develop marine rf'lated industries and to pursue a policy alonr, these lines we hope tlwt we will be compatible with thf' federal drift and the federal intC'ntion. They have chosen a site. They have made some fairly firm plans,I understand, and of course we have to support that and we are quite happy to do so.

In respect to the land freeze ,I indicate<1 that our intention is not to make it difficult in any sense of the word or to place any impediment in the t~ay of the Federal Government to have a project of the nature rl0scribed by the Federal Government to be impeded. At the same time we felt that there should have been some consultation. 1 cot1ld r,o on ll.nd make a comment but it would not perhaps serve any 8739

'fape 29~4 PK- 3 .:.!.!:· tumlrinlltl: prc-:~c purpose other th:1n to just cause a little dissen sion or exacerbate what is t he situation that should not he . ' IR , ..:'>!'!!ION~ : ::!_. _ _.<;f'f.i\KrR: A supplemen tary. ''r . Srea~ er, would t he ninis t er indicnte whet!lcr hIs c1cpartl1!ent nr f.nclced t he Province is involved in any planninp ncti.vily th at m1 Jt!tt lNtd to alteT!'ate hnrl>our and ports facilities , :>ltcrn<1tc:> to St . .Tnlu, 's, :my activity that would lead to the develop- rwnt in the t:ly !iuJls a rea of these alternate harl:our and port fncil i.tic>s to I"Upfllement the St .

Joltn' s operation? Could you restate it? . Yes , lct ree restate it . Is the Province or the I'll ni~; c er' s department in partic ula r engaged in any on··~oing pl anninp activity that \loo!d see!t to provide alternate port facilities ac ll:~y llnll s • When T Si\y ' alternate ' 1 mean alternate co the f acUities ·rr . ur.mnrr.AN: /\t nay Bulls? 'l't . ~l'f'IONS : ----- Yes ,at Ray tulls , which would he supplcMent:lry to rx1~tinr f:~cilitic>s here tn St . John ' s . 'IT'. Sl'r.Al"FR : -------- T'lc hon . 'liniste r of Indu s trial and Rural Development . 11R.

LUNDRTCAN: r•r. :':peakcr , tn the Particular field relating to the di-:r:,1tr.h of sh1.ps, the monl toring of activity relatinr to offshore r:ot r<"l Vt'~~els and mat ter s of surveillance of that nature we arc not lnvolw•d ours I' lvc~ in lookinr at any other sites of anything rcl nting til ch:•t , c•wt !« totnlly n fede r al responsibility. But we a r e involved It tl\<:cu~sion~ Pit h seve r~l conpanies that relate to marine industries vi lc-h 8800

Nay 26, 1976 Tape no. 2945 Page 1 - mw Mr. Lundrigan. will require port facilities, and if in the event that we cannot conclude any agreements then, of course - I could not make any comment on them at the moment, because it is very preliminary work that we are doing. We have had meetings with a number of companies that have activities relating to marine offshore activities of various variety of types. We are also, of course, as the member is aware from public comments, heavily involved in doing a detailed programme for potential for offshore platform construction in the Province.

There is approximately $500,000 allocated by Industrial Development and two private companies and the federal government that will get us involved in preparing all of the various elements that are required to enable us to avail of concern platform construction. For the information of members of the House,this is a major type of activity which has been refined to a considerable extent by the Norwegians. It is a major construction activity that at some point if it is ever :· brought to fruition 'WOuld result in $200 million outlays by private industry for the construction of one such facility.

And that requires an unusual combination of geographic and other kinds of factors to enable that to able to be progress with. We are in the final stages at least. When I say final, this present year we will be able to identify all of the elements, and hopefully accommodate all of the ilements and to be able to say to the industries of the world that Newfoundland is a location primarily suited for that type of construction. With this in mind, of course, quite a number of harbours and sites are being considered, several at least as having potential. And I might add that these involve several parts of the Province.

NR. SPEAKER: l'tRS. MCISAAC: The hon. member for St. George's, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister without Portfolio. With respect to a question asked yesterday by the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), since the justification given for the 8801

May 26, 1976 Tape no. 2945 Page 2 - mw Hrs. Hc lsaac . approval of the stadium at Ferryland apparently has nothing to do witll the upcoming by-election. Does that same justification . I apply to St. George's which also has an outstanding commitment for a stadium for that area? SOME RON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS; Well, of course, the hon. member is quite right, Mr. Speaker. It has nothing to do with the by-election, because the commitment was made in August of last year in writing, and you know we have a copy of the letter.

Could the bon. member tell me when the commitment was made for St. George's? MRS . HCISAAC: It has gone on now for quite some time, but I think it was July of last year when the commitment was made. HR. ROBERTS: Alec Dunphy, just before the election. MR. WELLS: Commitments of this sort will be honoured. The question is that obviously financial problems have made deferral necessary in some cases, but I presume the~e is ongoing work and planning On that Rtadium exactly the same as there is On the Ferryland stadium,I would think so. At least I have no information to the contrary. MR .

SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans . HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the acting Minister of Public Works and Services could tell us if a replacement has been found yet for Scrivener ~rojects Newfoundland Limited in connection with the Health Science Complex? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. acting Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. ROUSSEAU; I feel like the prover~ial yo-yo. Last week I was not and this week I am. No, not to my knowledge yet. It is still under consideration by government, as to what our reaction is to the receiver's suggestion to gove~nment.

MR. NEARY: Would you repeat that again? 8802

May 26, 1976 Tape no. 2945 Page 3 - mw MR. ROUSSEAU: m1at government's reaction is to the receiver's suggestion to government as to which way to go in respect to the contract on the Health Science Complex. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Would the minister then indicate who is overseeing the project at the moment? Is it the same people that were there before? Is the minister's own engineers? Who is overseeing the project now? HR.

ROUSSEAU: I presume the minister is ultimately responsible, but I would assume the engineering staff are still on it as well as the receiver. The receiver is also responsible now since the contract has not been sold nor has the company been sold. In other words,the receiver has taken over, and in effect is running the project and is responsible for it until such time as government makes a decision in respect to who goes in there to replace Scrivener. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr.)peaker.

How long does the minister think that the project can continue that way~ Can it go on indefinitly with the present engineers on the site? Or is it necessary at all to award"a contract? Can the minister's own engineers carry on and finish this project? MR. ROUSSEAU: No, it cannot go on indefinitely. I can only say now that it is getting very, very active consideration by government, ~nd it cannot go on, you know, indefinitely under this situation. Certainly a decision has to be arrived at.

I have said on a number of occasions, and I will say it again, that although we have two of the very finest of engineers that I have been associated with in government or anywhere else, Mr. Bursey, the assistant deputy minister and Mr. Brophy, the chief construction engineer, who are carrying the responsibility from an engineering point of view in respect to capital projects in this Province, funded by government of - what? - $200 million, 8803

l!ay 26, 197n Tape no. 2945 Page 4 - mw ~lr . Rousseau . there is only so much that a man can stretch himself over that nmount of project. HR. NF.ARY: ---- Yes, but you have engineers on the site. There are engineers on the site. Mr. Purdy is still there, and Hr. Thomas is still there. ~fR. ROUSSEAU : Yes, Mr. Thomas is there, but Mr. Purdy is there on a consulting basis. HR. NEARY: But why - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: The thirty minutes have transpired. 8804

·~ .. T:lllC 'lo . :'.f!l;r 'I" - l nr:nERS or. TITF. !'<\" : C'l~;ders of the n11y • nay lOP nror.<'<''l to t' <' atl1ournecl clehate on I"Ot ion 11 , tu11c-urn<Y! "Y tl1c hon . T.<>ader of t 1le ~'pposition . '"'. r.n~ .. ~Tf: 'T'hant· you, ' !:' . Speaker. I di-:1 otliourn the tlnho t n la!lt ¥1eclne!ldav anti 1 IJould hope that t his is th<' <'nd of the rlel-nte on thi:; motion .

By my count, which may not be complet e :tl thou~h T think it is . 1 t hink it is occuratc 1 T t!link thi.s is the wcHth cloy in •·lhic!) t his motion has hezn dahatc-d hy the llou&e or t-eforc the !louse and by my count a~;>'\in twenty- nin<' of tho fort y-e1.r,h t 1u~mhers of thi s House ' onvc sro!·en on i.t . T thinl~. <;f r, i t has rrobably hecn tbe nost useful clchate t·.'C have had in this session . It has been a far l'nnginr cll'ratc , one 1~hich h:~n covl'red , I SUI>J'Osc,in a way every aspect of !',ovcrnMent .1ctivi t y .

And n:tny of the minis ters have spok<>n, some have even '•N'n posit1 .v.- ann helpf ul anr' th<' private l'lcmbers who h_ave .spoken T r.t1ink 1•ithout exce-ption !lave arldcd to the kno~·ledse of the liOUSe .:tnd hopel'nl.l~ to t:\c ni.SCl\S~ions Of t:H~ '!OUSC. T (lo not prnr>ose to he very lo~, ~i r , ir clos1.n;! t•lc ..... .. '!'F..'\I>V: 'IT' • ~'"'""f."'':' T \~;l.lJ n()t "-t:> nearly n.; ,<':t~ M' r:hc ne"'h<\r for That ..,n·· h(' :t !flllttcr "f opirion. ~ftP.r, ' I-. S"C'.1!~er, the- .,,r.

"<'r.tl"'"~" 's SJ>ceches rettin<' rte of the CalllOus :"-:: • • lolm ·non ·:; ro•11n,..nt ahout thC' ..loll; . ..,. NF.A":V: Wt-11 if I h~:~d a ::::non: on "!(' J .t''.l' you "fi . ~tlP'n'P.Te· - it1)0Ut titc t!OP, who stood on hill !lind lt';"~ ~ t':r 1"'.1!J not thnt 11C ·li.tl it fi(l !wily l•ut th:>t IC -'.io H nt al~ . .~nr1 o ( t ' tf' '1on . r.<'-tlem;m ' s spreche:; f.:lll lnto t!l~t r.at""Ory . ' 'T:. "Tr'\f'\" : nh:>t ahnut you,. t)l '1l spcC'chcs, li!•f' t'v:• renr rnr1 e>: 8805 1·rnder rr::.n:: .:l horse . ~· ,.

l ' •in' .s T !t:lt<• h tn . T pity him !' ut T hAve no hate- fe-r hil" . Tnclccd ; C'\' ~ ;, 't.~VC' -;oM" :<vr:;-at"'y ff'r h ~II'. '"" lffiAI!Y: ''1' . i"~<:rn - ~: - y~1cal snobbery. •·r. Sp!':~l ·l'r: . the mo!:t usefuJ wny T t'linl- i.r. whi.ch •::tr. rroc<'l!l! is to vi.C'"' "O'~~'' nf the rcmar l·s uhich hnvl' hecn m:vlr l•v :ncnhpr" ln this delMt c .

T 11:1Vl' n(lt rend all of the> Tiansar ,ls, ~~-l l' l' t l T ~n not sur e t'tnt ill of t~e r:msards arc yet available, but T h:w<> TN1tl those t•11icl, Are :w."!iJ '.lh1 e .:nd 1 thin!: tltott 11 '' ricf rC'vir~· of the points ~r arlC' hy hon . ~entlt>.men 1.-ill sho•JI the tyre nf ·'rh.ate, thC' vc-ry nsc-~"•tl cl<>l•.1tc which t thin!; has t al:en pl«CP OTI t"is "lotfcm. ThC' initial r e s!"onsl' carne from the r,C'ntle."'':m fron "=r:md Pnlls (' lr . Lnn<lri!'nn) . the> 'finister of Purnl llevelopment, the ''in (:<ltl'r of Tnnust:rf.al llcvelopmcnt ,when he SJ'nlrr .1 thi nk ir.

Has t'tr .,rrr:C' c':ty 1.n fac t thnt T novl'd t:le motion. 'lovemhcr 21;, <'Inc! w'len I;C' s:(lt off !lis :tttr.1'1]'t to bl' n tleh ater and got on t o tal!dn~ a llltl<' hir .,•,nu t ,.;on<' (If h fs f<'r:ts J thoup.ht hi' rnd~ some sense. Tn' ll'ecl T ~1 .11'1 rnd tl' tn!:cn 1·tl t:l r,omc of llts sup,rcsttons.

Jlp t nlked "1'-n~tt hluch<-rrv h.1rvest1nr. and he talked ahout fi:o;h fnrminr .1nrl 'H' t:tll:c- d nlto•Jt c:tplin procc.>s!lin~; he t<>ll:<-il ahout thP "E'lcon rnrr"'r"R " h<'rl' • n t!1e !"t. ,to.,n's ~re.1 lv!lich is c!C'veloninp this " ""' ldNl nr unll,..rwntt"r C<"nncctor, :> n<?w step for"':l't'd in tcdano1or. :t . l'c nut thPsr. forth os same exrunpl('s of thl.' typP of pr n·lc-ct 11hlr 11 1/C' c,.,n r~"1rrv out :In t~is 'J'rovincr..

T thud: thl>t he ! 1; vl'cy mucls i n :-oint :t•· ' :.11 T nC'ed say nhout it is t"tS!.t t hoN• vcr'} muc~ th:tt rlurinP il11'1 tenure of office , he h11'1 hE'er. tbCTP n<>•·• F,..r si:'( Clr l'f "Tlt or nine monthll , I hnpe thnt we rvill s e e n number of t 11r"P rrojcct:c: come to l:ru1.~icn . l'lu(' o f t'1 "n ,r.hf' hlu cltcrr-• rllmt , the hluehe rry harvcstinR :;c't«'ll'C' w11i.c!> is i.n tl,e c . .,p;lhlf' hands of his colleAgue, the ' 'ini!ltcr 8806

Tape No. 2<;'/,r; N1't - 3 ·~. 1l0J1E1;'.TS: of ForeRtry anc'l Ap:ri.culture,I t'lin' : hns com!' :11 ong very ••ell already. !mrl if He can succecrl in <>Voic1ing !,urn~.n~ d01m llrynnts Cove,nr •·•as :1 t TTpp<-r Islanrl r:ove •~here the fire nearly - the blueherry hurninr; f:tre got out nf hnnd one nay two or three ,.ree1:s ar.o, I would think there is a verJ r;reat potential for hlueherry farminp, and if - '~. ~nTTS~T\.~.1': Tt f:hould not have gotten out of hand. 'IP.. P.O!UlP.TS: The HiniRter of 'Forestry and Agriculture f'nys it shou1d not have ~otten out of hand. I quite agree. ~m.

RQtTS~l'./llT: Jle •~as told not to burn after noon. I \las not mvare that the contractor ·- was it? -was told not to hurn brush in the afternoon 1.rhen the heat of the day had come upon it. He ignor0rl that.

I hope hP 1Ji] 1 be SE'nt the bill ~or the firE'firhti.ng 1->ecause the puhlic chest of th:!.s T'ro\•ince has ~,~rl to fiml several t'lom;:md dollars to fight that fire and if it '~:H; cnusccl hy the negl.:l.r;ence of the contractor,and nerlip;ence ,.,,rt1cularly iP ignorinr, n c1irect instruction from the Ilenart:Jrtent of "'or~>.stry and Azriculture,then he should certainly he !'lade to pnv a nort1 on or all of the cost of firhtin~ t 11nt firC'.

I 810 sure ,.,e •~oulc'l ;>rohably have a sounc:' case in J m~, hut vhether '·'e · h:1.ve 11 cas€' i.n }aw or not "e c:ertainly hav<" one in po] i.cy. llut in any ev<?.nt, ~ir. Speaker, the :!mnnrtant thinr, io, that thC' fi.rC' d:!rl not destroy an:• homes or nny cornmunit:les nnrl thP r>nun11y i_mport:l.nt th:!ng r:rowinp; out nf 1t i.s that '·7" .Jn havf' 1\ future i.n blueberry farming. We have a very good future and I hope it is the sort of thing which we 1.ril1 see developed.

If we can get the select connnittee which this motion requE'sts I woulc' think thP-r< are many more types of project and the only t;linr; alone thC'sc lines, the only thing I need say to the minister i.s to implore of him to remember that he does not necessarily have in his 01m nrinLl or ill his department or in the minds of his colleagues access to all of the suggestions which could be made.and indeed one of the prime reasons which could be made in support of this request for a select conunittee is that suggestions such as he put forward 8807

Tanr ' io . :'~lf. ·:., . l'l'lllf."T<;: wnul<i cc-1'\e fron nany people througho u t this rrovince . t hn•' :1 mnn in my off:fcP tollay , a constituent of m:fnc uho w:u1ts t o cl('vt'loo n ncnl lo!' .ind ustr y in the narc eay arcn of rr• dist r ict , the llare n,.y just s out h of St . Ant:hony~an<l there arc <:nn:;ic!eral ·lc> lle<ls of scillons the re anci they :\ave been in ::'•<' f':lll t harvcstrti n~t l this man is intereste cl . He is more an entteprene uT c:1.111 a fisherma n hut he is int erasted i n seeing if they c.:~n be " eve~oned further.

f) o~m Ln fort uno .Bay, ln t he :1arbour Breton area, m11gnificent !:(::>11 ops arc tal l'n . 1 t:n :1ot aw.::trc of them be i:l~ \lid ely availnhlc for sole co:noerci:tlly . J do not !:now whether they can sup port n l n r r.c scale comncrci:>l opcro tlo n but I am sure t her r is a not <'nr!.:ll there t ita t can br clcvc-'oped . It i s han! to f ind a r:: rt nf L:t ls '~'rovlncc , '!r . SpC'okcr , .,,\,ere there 11re not eX:un f!l·~s nr thl~ sort .

The- hon . r.~r-tl crum f rom F.:tp,lc Piver (•tr . ~tra c'ta n) '-'' ' "' " 111' spot ·<' l:t~t: \:etlne~day, I"S I recall it , ln t hf.s deh:tt c LnJ k<•J of s >~ lrnn , of smol:et! s:tlmo :l and of Hhnt: tlr .

C:J en NeHmnn of t'•e Cabot <;enCoods flrr is rl oin ~ here today t o develop that Jlilrticul:t r 1'art of t !1e ind us t ry . :'.ncl t'lc ' tnn. ~en tl er.~an !:rom Tuillinp;a t <' {'lr . ~r.ta l l t•r.o-t) -::!it\ nrttl rlnht 1y ':<' , t!l ~ t fn~ years people have h!1'er. sayinr. why r;1n '~ <' not hnvl! a smo'<N! 'lalmo n 1n<!ustry in :11is "rov ! nce . ~·hv l"t:!' : so tmch or t:tc s:>lr.on uhirh is cau~ht by our fis h<'.n>ten In ottr •1at~rs n:tl\ sol<l hy t~ l ~- fo r what ? $1.00, $1.05 , or $1.10 :1 nour-d ·f s wi1at t'•ey arc> 7et tin~ no11 - why must t!'lat salmon be sold r o rnr.lnncl or to 'icw York ru1u in ' let~ Yorlr 1 t 1-ecooes Jox , to r.o ·< 1 !1 rt,,. lm: anrl ' • :'l~<'t!l ; :utt! i n <:nr,land ani! in <:CI'tlaro it i!l I':"'<'"Nl ,.,,1 If VNI ;-.o Into '' r e-sta urant in Lo.ndon or an)"•hcrc in f.np,l:- ncl , :":'ld T 110 not l•nm· <·h:tt t he nr iccs arc now,but f i ve or six years ::~o ror n nnnncJ yo u cou h 1 r,c t C' nou~h . a pound used t o h e i n those t' :tv'> nh<'ur <:~. '>0, lt ts cnnsJ •lnrnbJ y 1!'-o;s now . $15 a course. 8808

Tape No . 2946 ~iell I ~as goinr, to say , fot a pounrl s tet11.ng, :u: OJ'IJ'n:>etl to t1 pound nvoir dUl>ois, fot n J'Ount' sterling y<>u <:<>ulcl get enoug'1 snoked saJr.on to cover an ordin;1ry rlinnc r J'l]atter , and .tt was sliced s o thinly that you could have rc."'d tl-te onlcr p:tp~r throur,h it. ' !asters, absolutely masters in slicinr, Sl'lOkcd salmon so t!tinly. Hell that shows the sort of value that r,oes lnto it . The lul'lJ'I fish roc is another one. The herrine , almost all of our he rri n!J ~oes i nto herring meal plants and yet we coulcl rroducc surely a butterfly fillet in !-le 1~ fo undland . 8809

Tape 2947 IB-1 Indeed }'r. Ne'!.'l'lan is now producing some. There are any number of potentials. There is not a pJace in this Island, Sir, not a place on the I,ahrador part of this Province where there are not suggestions of this sort l>hich could be brought forward and <dth relatively little cash and with perhaps a great deal of help on the technical side they could be made into workable enterprises. They may not be large.

They may only he one job or two jobs or five jobs or ten jobs, but I think we aU ar,ree, f::l.r, that in the day and age :In which <ve live that is the sort of economic and inPustrial and rural development which we need in this Province. It is desirable economically. It is des:l.rable even more of that fro~ the po:lnt of view of our life style and of the kind of Province '"e l>ish to ~ake. So I "''ouJ d say to the "inister of Industria) and !'ural ne-velopment that J very much appreci .ated his contribution to the dehate.

Once he got off his self assigned effort to try to be a hatchet man, once he got off that and got on to talking about his clepartment and some of his ideas I think he did very well incleed. I think h:ls sugr,estions were very good ones. lo7hether they are original or not :Is hesicle the point. They were excellent suggestions. They have been made many t:lmes by ~any people and I hope the minister can arrange to bring the17' into being, can arrange to make the sugp,est:lons :Into reality.

T would say to him fnrther,to repeat that there is not a commun:l.ty in. this Island or on the Labrador where similar ideas cannot he put forward. Tf there was n0 other argument in favour of setting up this s~1ect committee than the one which the gentleman for Grand falls (~r. Lundr:lgan) put forward,then, Sir, that in itself should he enough to carry the c:lav. The rentleman for TPill:lngate ("t"r. Smallwood) then spoke, S:lr, and he was entertaining, interestinr,. He spoke at some length.

As I read h:ls speech he spoke at sol'te Jength on the h:l.story of this type of thfng and pave us a very useful review of the types of things, 8810

~1ay 26, 1976 Tape 2947 !11-2 ~"". RO'BF.~TS : types of cmrun1ss:lonf; and boards which we have had. He had a Mm view,as has been put to me 7of the way in which a comrilittee would operate. I am not sure I followed his line of argument because he then went on to say he preferred to see the committee bring in the best brains available to get their ideas. '•Jell, that is precisely the things that the commit tee would do. It could send for experts.

It could send for the government's officials and the government's advisors and above all it could let the orcinary people of Newfatmdland and Labrador come in and appear before it and say What they thought. The hon. gentleman went on and he said that he did not think a select committee would be the ~est way to find the answers needed. He talked of royal commissions. But I am not sure, Sir, that we have not come to the point in this Province where royal commissions of this type or for this purpose have ceased to be useful..

We have had any number of large royal commissions including the ~ost useful of all, I suppose, the Pushie ~oyal Commission report, a report which, by the way,is now out of print and very much regretably so. There is an immense amount of information in that. It stood up very well under the test of t:l.me.

If hon. gentleman, Sir, want to read only one document,and I so advise my newer colleagues who want to read only one document,to get some understanding of the public policy of this Province and of the problems 'He face and of the possible solutions., then that one document in my view should be the report of that particular royal commission headed by }'r. Gordon Pus hie and including tt~elve or fifteen or fourteen prominent Newfoundlanders. Indeed the Premier himself was one and there were a number of others even more eminent. It is a very useful document.

It became unfortunately the subject of politically controversy at the time. It became embroiled in political arguments. I suppose that is the fate of royal commissions or royal commission reports. It is unfortunate 8811

!'ay 211, 1976 Tape 2947 IB-3 ''1' . f!OBERTS : hecrmse in the heat and the dust of battle the very real value of that commission was overlooked. Ilut ln any event J think ~·e have come to the point where •re do not need more royal commissjons. lfuat we neecl now is an opportunity for the ordinary people of this Province to say '~hat they think and then vrhat we need now is a government that is prepared to act. The next speaker ~-JRS my friend, the then member for Fxploits (Pr.

Steven trulrooney) Hhose career in the House has been interrupted hrief] y,who I hope •r:lll he with us again if ever the government summon the c0urar,e to enable them to make it possible for the people of the nfstrfct of Exploits and of Bonavista North and of Ferryland and Ferryland district to voice their wishes in the matter of who should he their member in the House. I am sure that r•r. Yulrooney will be back here again. }<r. YuJrooney made an excellent speech.

He talked of some of the ways we should proceed and brought to the debate the vie"t<'POint of a very youne man, "«•eJl educated, a teacher and a very good teacher. I thought "«•hat he had to say "''as very much in point. Then l-.re had }'r. rharles Power,who was then the member for Ferry land and "'ho is in a position similar to that of t'r. Pulrooney, thi1t is that h1s career has he en interrupted. In Yr. t'ul rooney' s case 1 believe it was temporary. tn Mr. Power's case it will he pPnnanent. 1·-Thether the Tory Party make it pemanent in the interests of ~·r.

Thomas noyJ e or Hhether the voters of Ferry land make it permanent it wiJl he equally permanent. But in any event Yr. Power 1>1ent off on R hit of a kick of his own. He announced that he would vote artd.nst the resolution and the reason is that the ba1'1is of regolut:l.on is to find out what Newfoundland needs to develop. Fie >tent on to say tl1at if 1my member noes not know what needs to he rl!'vPloped in his OHn t't:lstr:lct he should not be sl.tting in the llouse. l·'r. Speal·pr, T find that offensive.

I ito not think a.ny mel'lher could •wer cl ni"' th;1t the fifty-one men :md women vho frol'l tll'le to ti!'le sit i.n thjs ll ouse represent the <;isclo!T' of this Province. 8812

~'ay 26, 1976 Tape 294 7 IB-4 }11'!. liOBF.RTS: Each of us has been elected to speak and to bring our minds and our tra1ning and our experience to bear on the problems of this Province. Rut anybocly who would claim that all wisdom resiCies withjn the walls of this !louse, S1r, is either on an egomaniaca] trip of incred1ble proportions or is COT!lpletely and utterly out of touch with what is happen1np. Tn the case of ~fr. Charles Power I would perfer. to believe the ]atter is the explanation. His suggestion js a very had one. He Clid however go on to talk about something which should be clone.

He taJke<1 about the crown land system needing improvement, T.IP projects 1110re inclined towards provincial needs, consolidat1on of fish market1ng efforts, <1eveloping facilitie~ to cater to tourist ~ollars; all of them good ideas, all of them ideas that have been well rehearsed before, a]l of them ideas on which the government have taken no action. I wish the government would take Some action on this. The fact they have not is one of the reasons why I have advocated this particular select committee be set up. vle then had the gentleman for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) making one of his typical contributions.

I have had it precised and taking out the guff I have had two or three minutes worth of substance out of it. He did say,as I understand it,that what is needed is a select commHtee to study the future - no!- what is not needed is a select committee but rather. what is needed is a plan of action. He and I Sir, are all fours on that point. That j_s the basic point which I made '~hen I moved the motion originally. Then we went on and I think this is a quotation. He believed that my intentions were honourable and positive in placing the resolution on the Order Paper,and I thank him for that.

He suggests~ however 9 that sending the select committee out around the Province would give every crackpot a chance to get whatever he has on his mind into print. I f:f_nd that approprfate, Sir, coming from the gentleman for LaPoile (l'r. Neary), that he would take that v:!_ewpoint 8~13

:t-'ay 26, 19 76 Tape 2947 IB-5 n• • !lOBJr.rrs : and J would sugp,est simply that if the shoe fHs, Sir, he should not hesitate to wear it. We then had the ~·inister of Mines and Energy who gave us h:!.s gloom and doom speech, h:! s original gloom and doom speech.

Anybody who reads that speech, ~fr, Speaker, or anybody who heard it made here in the House,cannot but be ta~en by the fact that the V!n:!ster of ~·ines and r:nergy has just about given up on the future of th:!s Province, just ahout thrmvn down the c1esire - no, I am sure he has the cesire - thrown do~~ the belief that the government of th:!s Province are able to prapple with the probl~ms of the Province. Tt is a cry of clespair from start to finish.

It :!s the cry of a man who is o!d beyond his ye~rs, weary beyond h:!s years, a man who reRlly cannot see any way out of the morass :!n which he considers himself and his colleagues to be. It was not the cry of a man or a ~roup of men, a government, feeling they have some answers, feeling that they have so!Te solutions, feeling that they have some proposals to put forward. It was a desperately bad speech. I was surprised that tl>e gentleman for St. John's West (wr. Crosbie) ma~e it.

I was surprised at the time,but having l1earc! hi~ s1nce I have come to the conclusion that he meant every word of it,and that he is a man, Sir, TIDO has given up the fight and that he :!s jnst now,I venture it is fair to say, looking around for. a safe berth ;n,·ay from the turmoil of the politics of th:!s rrovince and what used to be called in the old days a safe berth for the lolinter. Then we had an excellent speech by my friend fro!!' Burp,eo­ llay n'ERpoir (l-'lr.

Sil!ll'lons), an absolutely excellent speech :!.n Hhich he thought there should he a committee and thought that the min:! ster' s r:loom and <'loom speech was a counsel of despair and should be rejected· and gave his reasons for. rejectinr it. He gave his reasons for sayinp: that the people of this Province shonld he consulted, an excellent "peed• inileed. 8814

~'ny 26, 1976 Tape 2947 IB-6 'Ill. 110BRRTS: He then got to the }'inister of Justice, who stated hf!'lself firmly in support of the princip]e that we shouln not ask the people of the Province what they think about the future prospects of this Province. If ever, 8815

May 26, 1976 Tape no. 2948 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts. Sir, there was a more revealing statement of ,a Tory administration than that, I do not know what it could be. There is no possible way, Si·r, that in one sentence you could more succinctly summarize what the Tory party stands for and what they stand against. It is "'orth comparing nim to what its own leader said in the 1971 election when the cry around the Province was, "We are not going to do things for us, we are going to do things for you.

You tell us what you want, and we will do it." But how they have changed, and how the ~Unister of Justice, a man ·hitherto known in his own words for his adherence to principle~has put it aside.

We then had a speech by the gentleman from Lewisporte, a very positive speech naming a great number of areas where actions should be taken, crown lands, the need for greater departmental co-ordination, a broader role for the Department of Rural Development, the need for some action in crop marketing, the need for positive proposals in the tourist industry, He mentioned the need to develop the seal meat resource., another of the fisheries resources that can be developed in this Province, and above all going on record as saying that the select committee should listen to what the ordinary people of this Province has to say about what can be done for our future. l~e then came, Mr.

Speaker, to the speech of the member of St. John's East (Mr. Marshall),who made his usual speech and was listened to with the usual interest, and well-spent it was. He felt that a select committee was not the answer, but that we should spend our time as a House on that. Well,I vrould agree with him, and if there were any realistic hope of the government directing the attention of the House to these matters then I would endorse his suggestion.

The problem is, and he above all should know it because he had the responsibility of the House or leading the House for two or three years, he above all else, Sir, should know that the government of which he was a part have no intention whatsoever of having such a discussion. Indeed.,their whole record since they became a government has been 8816

Hay 26, 1976 Tape no. 2948 Page 2 - mw Hr. Roberts. -- ·- - to avoid discussing these fundamental issues. That may be one of the reasons whv the hon. gentleman now sits where he does on the fringe of the Tory party. There was a lot in what he said, a lot in his speech, Sir, that ±s well worth consideration by anybody interested in this Province. I do not agree with all of it by ariy means, but I think that a lot of his points were well made. He was verv eloquent again on the Gull Island project, and very eloquent on the need to look to the Scandinavian Countries.

The only problem was, Sir, he was not specific and he was again even more eloquent on the fact the biggest contribution that the government could make was the contribution that they were going to exercise leadershin, and I find it interesting, Sir, that the hon. gentleman still sits in support of that government. I am not suggesting that he join us. We have standards, Sir, and he would not want to join us, and I assure him that we would not want him. But there are independents. There are cross benches in this House, and he and the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) would be seat mates if not soul mates. And, Mr.

Speaker, I am surprised the hon. gentleman for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), after his speech in this motion, his speech in other motions in this House, can still sit, and as he did last night, vote in support of this administration. He says one thing, Sir, but his votes tend to be different, and I am surprised at him. I figured that he would be man enough to act upon what he knows to be right.

And I expect that before this session is over - I am not calling for a coalition, Sir, Indeed the hon. gentleman and I would make an unlikely coalition . - ~ut I expect, Sir, that before this session is over or before it is too long gone, if not before it is over, the hon. gentleman will act in accord with his words. We had a first-class speech from the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture who told us about his department. I could only hope that he is in that department long enough to allow its ideas to come 8817

Hay 26, 1976 Tape no. 2948 Page 3 - mw Mr. Rober t s. into fact. We have had a succession of ministers in that department mos.t of whom have been disasters, particularly the gentleman for Gander (Mr. Collins) who, in a political sense, is a disaster in every department he goes into it. It comes down around his e11r. But the Uinister of Forestry and Agriculture ,is just the opposite. He brings lustre to every position he takes. He brings his mind to bear on it. He comes to grips with the political and policy problems. He works out solutions. All I ask is that he be given time enough to make them come into effect.

Again, Sir, I hasten to say I am not having a coalition.The hon. gentleman, I would not suggest to him that he front up the coalition that I have in mind. MR. ROUSSEAU: lffi.. ROBERTS: Everybody's choice. Well he is everybody's choice, I would think so, Sir, and the word is that he is not unwilling to accept the laurel if it is proffered to him. But, Mr. Speaker, I said the word is that the l~inister of Forestry and Agriculture is not unwilling to accept the laurel if it is proffered to him. l1R. ROUSSEAU: Keep up the good work. MR. ROBERTS: I will y~eld if the hon. gentleman wishes to say a word.

Stand up~ If the hon. gentleman wishes to say something, stand up, and I will yield for the hon. gentleman any time. He may be my coalition leader the way things are going. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman made an excellent speech as he often does.When he stays off partisan politics, he is usually very good, and his heart is not in partisan politics. His heart really is in a different place altogether, A magnificent speech then from the young member for Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr. Rideout).

I had thought that I might read it again, because it is a brilliant exposition of political philosophy, but all I will say is that I suggest every member of the House read it, an excellent speech. 8818

May 26, 1976 Tape no. 2948 Page 4 - mw Mr. Roberts. We then came to the Minister of Municipal ~ffairs. The usual stuff we had from him, not even school-boy debating. He is not a patch on his predecessor, Mr. Leo Barry, who was formerly a member, and the original school-boy debater. The present Minister of Municipal Affairs tries hard, but his speech just was not up to scratch. My friend from Port au Port (Mr. Hod4er) made a magnificent speech. My friend from Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Canning)_ made a magnificent speech.

We had a very interesting speech from the Minister of Tourism, thefirst time, I believe, that we lmve had a speech from him on his department. It was very intereating,particularly given the fact that the last two years, Sir, we have not been allowed to debate the estimates of that department, which means, Sir, that it has been more than three years now since the Department of Tourism was examined in any way by any public body. There are a number of other speakers, Mr. Speaker. I do not need to say anything about the speech of the absent Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. Where is 'Ank~ by the way?

Is he on holiday? MR. STRACHAN: He is gone to Scotland. MR. ROBERTS: He is gone to Scotland. What is he doing in Scotland? Is it a holiday? But is he gone on a holiday or are we paying the shot? MR. STRACHAN: He is gone on a holiday. MR. ROBERTS: He is gone on a holiday. Well in that case he deserves a holiday, and I am very glad he is gone on a holiday, because it is a holiday for all of us. But he made a speech, Sir - MR. CROSBIE: It is well-deserved. MR. ROBER'llS: I have no doubt it is well-deserved.

And as I said when the han. minister, Sir, went to Bechuanaland I did not begrudge him in the least sending him there, but I did get unpappy at the thought that we had to pay to bring him back. If he is on a holiday, at least it will be at his own expense and not ours. 8819

May 26, 1976 Tape no. 2948 Page 5 - mw Mr. Roberts. We heard from the member for Mount Pearl (Mr. N. Windsor), the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow). We had a dreary whine ~rom the Minister of Fisheties whose only- pmlicy is to be against the Government of Canada. He seems to have no positive ideas. Every expression and exposition he makes is one against Ottawa, but he has no suggestions of his own, and when we get some action from the Federal Department of Fisheries or from the federal government on fisheries matters his one complaint ' is that he is not consulted. Well I reject that.

I do not know whether he is consulted or not, and I do not really care. It is his problem. What concerns me is that the minister does not seem to put forward any real programme for dealing with the fisheries, a pro~ramme which would be partially within the legislative and financial responsibility of this Province, a programme which would be in the large part the legislative and financial responsibility of the Government of Canada. We are seeing no thinking on fisheries in this House, Mr. Speaker, no thinking at all.

All we are seeing, as I have said, is whining by the Minister of Fisheries on almost every conceivable subject. We also had excellent speeches from the gentleman from Fogo (Capt. Winsor) , the gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. Wm. Uc:Neil), the gentleman from Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe), the gentleman from Fortune- Hermitage (Mr.J.Winsor), the gentleman from Windsor- Buchans (Mr. Flight), the gentleman from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), all of whom made speeches that I thought were simply superb. It shows why each of them was elected to the House, and why each of them will be re-elected for many times to come. Mr.

Speaker, there was a common theme in the speeches, or rather there were two common themes, one on this side, one on the other side. On this side of the House, Sir, every speaker, as my notes show it, said that he would support the motion. Some may have done so grudgingly, some may have done so gladly, some may have done so for one reason, some for another reason. On the other side no speaker 8S20

lay 26, 1976 Tap e no. 2948 Pa ge 6- mw _!lr. Roberts. said he would support it. Some said nothing. Most others did say that they would vote against it, obviously a caucus decision, and fair enough. But, Mr. 'SpP.aker, tinder lying the refusal of the miniatry to accept this resolution is the fact that the ministry have not come to grips with the problem of worki~ out a plan for the development of this Province. Some of the ministers said something of their plans, and I have mentioned, , 8821 ,.

~fay 26, 197ti Tape 2949 IB-1 H]:!,. l'OllFPTS ; 1 think, everyone who did. Even taking into account the excellent speech of the l':lnister of Forestry and A!;!riculture and the one or two other excellent speeches including the excel lent portions of the speech made by the }!in:lster of In.-1ustrial Development, it all comes to very lHtJe. It is very thin gruel. The fact remains that this government, Sir, have once again shown that they have no idea of how to deal with the problems of this Province, no idea of how to solve those problems and furthermore not even a concern to try to get those problems solved.

He have sat here now for five years, Sir. The government have brought in pious platitude after pious plattitude. All we have seen is grov1ing unemployment, an increasing debt and a group of men who are more and more in less and less control of what is happening. If ever, Sir, there was a need for a select committee it is now. The government >dll not take up their responsibilities. I say to them that since tl,ey v!il) not take up their responsibil ites let the House of Assembly take it up.

If the government will not do their joh, then let tt1em set up a select committee so that that cmmlittee can do the joh~because i.f the job :Is not done it is the fault of the government. But it is not the government who suffer. It is the people of this Province who suffer, suffer as they are 'idth ever increasing taxes. Every single tax we have had has been increased dur:!nr. the Tory times, every single tax, some of them more than once anc more yet to come,I venture. Services are being cut back.

Un- employment is r.rowing and we have a group of ministers, Sir, who are c:lithE'rinr,, who are more and ro.ore giving the impression of a group of men who do not know how to make this Province •mrk, who do not know 'mere this Province should r;o and how to Tllake it get there. That is 1•hy I hrought :In this resolution. There is no sound or sensible rea~on for rejecting it. It is sad. It will be re.1ectec!. The p;overnment have caucused, they will not accept it. So h<' it. Rut it is sad, Sir, hecause it is the people of this Province 8822

}'ay 26, 1976 Tape 2949 IB-2 ~"P.. ROBEY.rS: who will be the losers. Hhere do we go from here, Sir? lve have had the p;loom and doom speech of the ~'inister of Mines and Energy representing his considered judgement after five years as one of the leading ministers of the Crown, a speech of despair, a counsel of C!el'lpair. He have had the views of the member for T~·ril,J :!.ngate (l~r. Smallwoorl) on the bankruptcy'las he sees it,of the Province. ~1e have !,ad the abject poverty of the Order Paper. As of today, Sir, there are fifty-one or fifty-two pieces of lepislation before the House.

The most important of them are a fJag and a lottery. That shows what this govermroent 's priorities are. Oh sure,there are Jots of pieces of legislation there but you have a look at them. Look at the printed bills as they are circulated to us and time after time there is nothi.ng of any substance. There is nothing on this Order Paper, nothing in the government's plans to show any idea of how to develop this Province or where to create jobs. We have not seen it in the budget. t,lhat .did o.re see in the budget?

In fisheries we saw a cut back, fifty per cent less this year or the expenditures this year to be only one half of what they were last year jn the fisheries. Hhat do we see on the Order Paper? A flap; and a lotter y ! l ' arvellous things! 0h they will really put 25,000 prople to '-'Ork! '!'hey will develop our resources, A flap: and a Jottery ano a group of men who in all conscience believe that these are the priority problems of th:l.s Province. The rest of the nrder ~aper, Sir, nothing, absolutely nothing. Act after act, bill after h:fll, the merest sort of housekeeping. I mean, 1 have nothing agai .nst

an act to recognize Queen's counsels and to provide for their precedence. I do not doubt that is very important. But what has it got to do with the real problems of this Province. "An Act To Amend The Local Governments Elections Act " , sure it is great. Lo~ver the voting age to eighteen. But that should not be the only priority of this government. "An Act For The Avo :I cl<~nce ()f TTncert _a inty Concern:l .np; Certain Judperoents Issued Out Of The Supreme ('ourt of ~! ewfoundland", neces!<ary, I have no doubt because 8823

~ 'ay 26, 1976 Tape 2949 IB-3 _2~. RO~ERTS_;_ apparently there :Is some uncertai.nty about certain judgements of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland. But hardly, Sir, the sort of thing that shoulo require the priority attention of the government. Yet the ~'inister of Justice must have twenty-five pieces of legislation stancling in his name on that Order Paper today. He must have twenty-five. I have not counted them up, but I will 11ay that is the most important one.

That is the most important one, to Jay at rest what apparently are some doubts about certain judge~ents issuing out of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland. So the government, Sir, do not know l-rhere we are roing. They have no plans. They have no ambitionf', no a:l.ms. They do not even have hopes any more,and lo7e put the inot:lon on the Order Paper in the hope, Sir, that they would accept it and say, all rifht,we might not have all the answers. We will admit that. Let us set up a committee and let it sit throughout the Province durin~ the next three or four months and let us see what people bring forward.

If they br:l.ng forward a good idea, we will adopt it. If they do not, what have we lost? A few thousand dollars in travel expenses, less than some of the ministers spend in twelve month!' going hither and yon on 1!\atters of no import, less than you ~>pend on helicopters on hunt:lng parties and partr:l.dge shooting expeditions. I would sRy to the ~!inister of Transportation and Col'1111unicat :l.ons, except he is not here, that he might be well advised to look at how the government helicopters are being used.

Jt is not a major point but it 1s an irritating one to many citizens of this Prov:l.nce judg:lng by the numbers of telephone calls I get about it of private citizens who are seen getting out of government helicopters pa:ld for out of publ:lc funds that are used on hunting expeditions ano fishing expeditions and partridge shooting expeditions and the like. But that is all this government are concerned with, Sir. No indication of coming to p.rips with the real problem. The 882ft

~'ay 26, 1976 '!'ape 2949 IB-4 l'R. 1'0BERTS: unemployment figures ['O up and np and up. The Covenunent of Canada, Sir, are going to take the couple of hundred million dolJars that will allegedly be saved by these Unemployment Insurance Act changes and use the!'! for job creation programmes. l·~ell we need job creation programmes in this Province. Rave the government of this Province put forward any suggestio~s to Ottawa? I do not know. But if so they have done it secretly and covertly and quietly. That is not like them. I do not th:l.nk they have put forward any programmes. They have no plans.

They have no prosrammes. AlJ they had was a plan last Summer to try to get back into office. To do that, Sir, we had a budget brought in - well,I have got to be careful because it is not parliamentary what I think of that budget - we had a budget brought in and anotber one brought in this Fall after the election. He had promises of stadiums and hospitals and roads and anyth:lng else anybo~y could think of unt:ll the day after the election. That is all this government had plans for and now they have nothing.

The ~·:Jn:ister of Recreation is going to have to go around this Summer say:lng as he did to the lady from St. George's a few moments ago, ''We had to defer that." I will bet there is a stadium in Ferryland this year. l•le wi] 1 see about priority. Hhy? Because there is r.oinp to be a by-election in Ferryland and they wiJ] try to buy R few votes with a stadium. \~ell I say that the people of Herm:ltage gave the answer to that. Take whatever you can get. You are entitled to it and you pay for it and laugh at them.

I say now to the gentle.man for Kilbride (}!r, Wells) that whether he Ukes it or not - and I do not think he would be party to this sort of scurvy treatment - there will he a stadium built in Ferryland, this 1.n a year when we cannot Jreep hospital beds open, this in a year when we cannot keep the highways in necent driving order. But we wj_ll have a stadiUIT! in Ferry land and nowhere else this Summer 1 and all the talk of surveys and commitments be damned. 8825

Hay 26, 1 '176 Tape 2949 IB-5 ~OBEP:l_s_: The col'lli!Iitments ¥!ere l"acle before the election, of course they were,and so was the one in St. Geo~ge 's and the one in PJ acentia to which the han. gentleman for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) speaks,and a number of other similar projects just liYe - what \vas it? - the great leap forw<>rd in sports. T.Je were going to have three or four million dollars a year and that was announced before the election. After the election, Sir, it got the royal order of the boot. But we wtll have the sta<' .ium in Ferry land this year, and I Helcome it and I wish we wouJ d get one in St.

George's and one in Bellevue. If I thought the government would call by-elections I '"ould say to my colleague frol" St. r.eorge 's O~rs. "cisaac), "Resign.'· And she will come flying back in. It would surely be a great vote if the government had the courage to call it and we would get a stadium there and much else besides. }'r. Speaker, the government, Sir, have no plan, no programme and that is what is Jacking. It is the government's job to develop that plan and oevelop that programme, to present it here to this House, to present it to the people of this Province. That is the essence of leadership.

It is not our job to develop it. l·Te do not have access to the government's 5,000 or 10,000 civil servants Rncl experts. ITc Cia not 11ave accesR to the m:fnisters, the deputy m:!n:f.sters and aJl the advisors. It is not our job to develop it. It is not the job of the hon. gentleman for Twillingate U'r. Smallwood) to c1evelop it or the job of the gentleman for LaPoile (~r. Neary) to develop it. It is the joh of the government, only their job~and I would say it :!s their only job. They have not done it, Sir. They have the expertise available to them. They have hacl the time.

How many plans and plans and more pJans have there been,and priorities and plannings and restructurings, ;~11 of thel'l avoiding the evil Clay. The evil day come~ closer, Sir, the evil day when they will have to admit to the people of Ne\••foundland that they have failed completely. They came into office with high !lopes and I hel ieve those hopes v1ere genuinely held. 8826

~~ay 211, 19711 Tape 2950 PK - 1 '1r. Roberts: Hr. Speaker, their four or five years in office brought disillusion­ ment upon disillusionment, and now, Sir, the disillusionment is sprendinr, in the Cabinet itself, minister after minister, the hearts r,oing out of them, feeling that the job cannot be done, that \.;re are not able to do it. Nmv he may say that nobody else is able to do it as tvell. That, Sir, is a matter for the electorate of this Province to decide,not for any group of men or women. Hr.

Speaker, our job in this House is to consider and to debate and to suggest,and this '"e do and this we have done and this H<' ••i] 1 do. This motion vras put forward in an effort to fill the void. The p.overnment have not put forward a programme.. You can read all of the Throne Speeches, Sir, and we are getting the same empty, trite phrases now that we had five. years ago.

I can go through them, and I have, and tak.e them and wind up having the same phrases crop up, Rnrl I could name all of the broken promises- the great drug plan 1ve were r,oinp. to have,we were told,in 1970; the great dental care plan; all the new hospitals that were going to be built along the "Northwest Coast; the grent fishery ·gear insurance plan;the great trawler plan; the Dutch auctions we used to heRr so much about; the further processing of fish.

I could go on and on in every single field of ?,overnment and list the plans which do not exist, the promises wllich have l1een broken, the pious hopes vhich have not materialized. ~~r. Speaker, if the government have brought forth their plan and tJ,eir rrop.ramme and their policy there would have been no need for this motion, hut they have not, Sir. They have failerl completely anrl utterly. i\nc.l no•,, Sir, they dre hiding. They will not fac~ tbe e]ectorat~. That is why He hav~ not got our three by-elections, straight political cowardice.

TI1ose three districts, Sir, were not voj ded, not ma<1e vacant by any action of any memb~r, not as if a member hnd resip.;ncd or a member had died. No, Sir, they were all vacated h<'cause the Supreme Court of this Province, acting under the terms of the law passed by this Legislature,found that the results of the 8827

'lay 26, 1976 Tape 2950 PK - 2 Hr. Roherts: election that there - the result of the election was that there was no member elected according to the law. And so the people in these three districts have no member. The election was null and void. And in each case there are two judges of our Supreme Court sittin~ as an election court so certified to Your Honour in writing, and no~; those people have no Member. And until the government give them the right to cl~ct their member they will not have anybodv to speak for them or to vork for them or to fight for them.

It is only political cowardlice and every single member of the Cabinet is guilty of that, Sir. The fact today that we have three out of fifty-one seat!' empty in this l'ouse equivalent to fifteen in the House of C0111l11ons, fifteen in the House of Co1llll1ons,there lvould be a revolution. There are two empty in the House of Co