Manitoba Hansard — 31 July 2002 (Sitting 74, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-74

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 74 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, July 31, 2002

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. , MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson J(j)donan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East J(jrkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

4077 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, July 31, 2002 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Transcona -Springfield School Division Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield) : I beg to present the petition of Anna Frolick, Chris Schmidt, Kurt Berger and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) to reverse the decision to split the Transcona-Springfield School Division and allow it to remain as whole or to consider immediately convening the Board of Reference to decide the matter.

Trans-Canada Highway-Twinning (Virden) Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to present on behalf of the Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire). Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Ed Paull, Irene Paull, Bev Ogilvie and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr.

Ashton) to consider making the completion of the twinning of the Trans-Canada Highway between Virden and the Saskatchewan border an immediate fiscal priority for his Government and to consider taking whatever steps are necessary to ensure the work begins in the 2002 construction year. The Winnipeg Real Estate Board Incorporation Act Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lome Weiss, J. McCullough, Agatha Wren and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba pass

an act amending The Winnipeg Real Estate Board Incorporation Act. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Transcon a-Springfield School Division Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honou rable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth THAT on November 8, 2001, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Caldwell) announced a split in the Transcona-Springfield School Division but despite repeated requests has been unable to identify any benefits of this decision to the students and taxpayers of said school division; and THAT this decision was not preceded by adequate public consultation as outlined m

section 7 of The Public Schools Act; and THAT this decision would result in significant hardships for the students in both Transcona and Springfield that would affect the quality of their education; and THAT the proposal by the Minister of Education on February 12, 2002, neither alleviates nor remedies these hardships; and THAT this decision results in an increased financial burden on the taxpayers of both the

4078 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 Transcona-Springfield School Division and the province of Manitoba; and THAT on March 13, 2002, the number of resident electors required by The Public Schools Act requested the Minister of Education to convene a Board of Reference to decide the matter. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly request the Minister of Education to reverse the decision to split the Transcona Springfield School Division and allow it to remain as a whole or to consider immediately convening the Board of Reference to decide the matter.

Trans-Canada Highway-Twinning (Virden) Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, I am asking leave for reading and receiving of a petition on behalf of the Member for Arthur Virden (Mr. Maguire). Mr. Speaker: Is it agreed? [Agreed] The honourable Member for Southdale, I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

These are the reasons for this petition: Over the years, the Trans-Canada Highway between Virden and the Saskatchewan border has been the site of numerous accidents, a number of which have involved fatalities. The safety of the motoring public on the Trans Canada Highway between Virden and the Saskatchewan border would be improved if the twinning of the highway were to be completed. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr.

Ashton) consider making the completion of the twinning of the Trans-Canada Highway between Virden and the Saskatchewan border an immediate fiscal priority for his Government; To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services consider taking whatever steps are necessary to ensure that work toward the completion of the twinning of the Trans-Canada Highway between Virden and the Saskatchewan border begins in the 2002 construction year. TABLING OF REPORTS * (13:35) Mr.

Speaker: I am pleased to table the report on the Operations of the Office of the Auditor General for the year ended March 31, 2002, in accordance with

section 28 of The Auditor General Act. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 303-The Salvation Army William and Catherine Booth College Inco rporation Amendment Act Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), that leave be given to introduce Bill 303, The Salvation Army William and Catherine Booth College Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi constituant en corporation le College William et Catherine Booth de l'Armee du Salut, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Martindale: The purpose of this amendment bill is to include a new

section setting out the college's purposes and objectives. It clarifies the college's ability to affiliate with other colleges and universities and removes the distinction between certain degrees the college may grant. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Gaming Control Commission Meetings-Soaring Eagle Accounting Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, for several weeks now we have been asking the

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4079 minister responsible for the gaming commission and the Minister responsible for Manitoba Lotteries questions as they relate to the Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission and the Manitoba Gaming Commission. I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Gaming, who last week twice said in the House that the Manitoba Gaming Control Commission and the Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission have met. Since July 12, the Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission is David Doer and Soaring Eagle.

I would like to ask the minister whether in fact David Doer was a part of the meetings that were held between the Manitoba Gaming Control Commission and Dakota Tipi. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I would have thought that the member would have apologized on behalf of his caucus for some of the most irresponsible allegations I have seen on a very sensitive issue- Mr. Speaker: Order. I need the co-operation of all honourable members.

I need to be able to hear the questions and I need to be able to hear the answers, so I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. Mr. Ashton: In addition to the rather spurious comments in terms of who Mr. Doer is related to, which is not relevant whatsoever, Mr.

Speaker, given the fact he was engaged by the Dakota Tipi First Nation and by the federal government, what I find most incredible, and I think this is something the member opposite should put on the record, is in fact that Soaring Eagle has been providing accounting manage ment services, has been working on behalf of Dakota Tipi in terms of meeting the requirements we made for more information in terms of their financial reports. It is not as it was stated in the PC press release yesterday, acting as auditors.

I wish members opposite would stick to the facts, because the Gaming Commission follows standard accounting practice. In effect, any information, according to the format used by the Gaming Commission, will have to be signed off by the requisite financial expertise. They will not be signed off by Soaring Eagle. They are providing an accounting service. They will be signed off by a CA as a standard accounting practice. I wish the members would put that on the record. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, that is not the question I asked the minister.

I asked the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Gaming Control Commission, who last week, as a matter of fact, said that Soaring Eagle would do an independent audit and he would accept that. It is in the record. * (13:40) I want to ask this minister when he was made aware that David Doer and Grant Hayton signed an agreement with Dakota Tipi to become the gaming commission there and to receive 15 percent of all VLT revenues. Mr. Ashton: Once again, Mr. Speaker, the member should read Hansard because the issue, in terms of the independent audit, was raised by the member.

My comment, it is in Hansard, was with a requisite professional expertise it would be recognized. Indeed, if the member knows anything about the process, and I wonder if maybe the PCs are using leftover Enron accounting manuals, I tell you the proper process has been followed in this particular case. Meetings have taken place because Soaring Eagle is representing the Gaming Commission, has been providing the information we required back in January. We make no apologies for that.

Any information that is provided in terms of an audit will be subject to the same requirements that any audit is: independent, verified, using the proper professional expertise. We make no apologies for requiring that in this particular case. Dakota Tipi First Nation Soaring Eagle Agreement Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I want to ask this Minister responsible for Gaming what action he is prepared to take today, when yesterday in the House he said it was inappropriate for the Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission to have signed an agreement with an individual who is going to receive 15 percent

4080 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 of VL T revenues. What action is this minister going to take as Minister responsible for the Gaming Control Commission to ensure we are not on a slippery slope where private individuals are coming into this province to manage gaming and casino facilities? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): As the Minister for Gaming has already made clear and I will make clear again, any arrangement between Soaring Eagle and Dakota Tipi does not involve the Province of Manitoba.

However, I do want to assure the member opposite, Mr. Speaker, that the agreement by which Soaring Eagle would receive 15 percent of VL T revenue is in violation of the VLT siteholder agreement, and consequently the First Nation has been informed that the VLTs turned off on July 17 will not be turned on again until the First Nation is in compliance and is not in contravention of the agreement. Dakota Tipi First Nation Soaring Eagle Agreement Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that David Doer and Soaring Eagle have been hired by Dakota Tipi to manage the facilities.

They have been hired by the band to do the audits. If the audits are in compliance, David Doer and Soaring Eagle get 15 percent of VLT revenue and the Minister of Gaming is on record that he will accept these audits as independent. Does the minister not view this as a conflict of interest when a person doing the supposedly independent audit will gain financially depending on the results of that audit? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would like to remind all honourable members when the Speaker stands all members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence. I ask the full co operation of all honourable members. Mr. Ashton: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Once again, I am surprised at this member, whom I have a lot of respect for on a personal basis, but after yesterday in which he made the same accusations in what I consider one of the lowest levels you can stoop to in terms of, even the language, you talk about disgusting. He obviously does not understand the siteholder agreement is with Manitoba Lotteries.

The machines are shut down. Soaring Eagle is not making any money off that 15 percent. Action has been taken by Lotteries to deal with that matter. In fact, Soaring Eagle's involvement in terms of the Gaming Commission, which has nothing to do with the operation of the VLTs or the siteholder agreement, under the gaming agreement, Mr. Speaker, involves information for the years '01 and now for the current year '02. It is the result of the Gaming Commission and this Government saying back in January of this year that the information provided by Dakota Tipi was inadequate. * (13:45) So, Mr.

Speaker, there is no connection here. I would suggest the member get some lessons on what is a conflict of interest. If he wants a briefing on the two agreements which are in place, the gaming agreement which they signed in 1994, my office is open this afternoon. It is open any hour of the day. Perhaps the members would care to get their facts straight before asking these kinds of questions. Mr. Reimer: Mr. Speaker, I have to give credit to the minister. He is a great wordsmith, an

interpretation of the way he wants to interpret the situation, but the minister will have to rely on the report that is furnished by this Soaring Eagle and David Doer. That has been indicated. The minister has said they are waiting for this report. My question to the minister then Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order.

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4081 Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you please remind the honourable member that a supplementary question requires no

preamble? Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity just to remind all honourable members Beauchesne 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I was sure I was just about to hear the question from the honourable member. *** Mr. Reimer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question to the minister. He has admitted that he is relying on the audit that is coming forth. I want to ask the minister then: Does he not perceive there is a conflict there when the person that is supplying the audit is doing the audit in a sense to protect their interests in retaining 15 percent of every dollar that is dropped in that machine?

I only ask whether he feels that is an independent audit that he must rely on to make a decision for the continuation of gaming on the reserve. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, once again the member talks about Soaring Eagle being the auditors. I suggest again that we perhaps arrange a discussion. Some Honour able Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Ashton: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would suggest the member opposite check any annual report. It could be a community group, it could be a Crown corporation. He will see a format that is used by the Gaming Commission.

This is standard accounting practice, an auditor's report signed by a CA with the requisite professional expertise. That is the exact term I used in this House. In fact there is a CA that has been put in place to provide exactly that verification of the books. * (13:50) That is how it works for community groups, that is how it works for government and that is how it will work with this particular Gaming Commission. They will have to have the requisite professional expertise and that will be the signature of the auditor, the auditor's report, the CA, not Soaring Eagle.

They are doing the accounting work; they are not the auditor of record. The record will state before it is accepted that it is verified by a CA. The member opposite should know that. Mr. Reimer: My question then to the minister is: On the top of the letterhead Soaring Eagle Accounting Limited, is that not then an accounting firm they are dealing with? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I would perhaps suggest the member opposite take some time to not only review standard accounting practice but also the different professions within accounting, because in this case the auditing will be done by a CA.

I believe that Soaring Eagle are CMAs. This is standard accounting practice; this is not something the Gaming Commission invented. I do not know what kind of accounting practice the member opposite uses but the bottom line is the situation here is no different than in any other case. I will explain it again. Soaring Eagle has been hired by Dakota Tipi to provide accounting services. The auditing, the verification of that, will be done by a CA who will provide independent verification of the veracity of the books. That is the same for every organization in Manitoba.

Dakota Tipi First Nation Soaring Eagle Agreement Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): On July 12 of this year an illegal agreement was signed by David Doer and the Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission, an agreement this minister has already indicated was inappropriate, illegal, against the law. Mr. Speaker, what action has been taken to terminate that agreement, and is it terminated back to July 12, retroactive to the date it was signed, given that it is illegal?

4082 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Apparently on July 12 an agreement was signed between Soaring Eagle and Dakota Tipi, an agreement that has absolutely nothing to do with the Province of Manitoba. However, this agreement, as I have said already today, an agreement under which Soaring Eagle would receive 15 percent of VLT revenue, is in violation of the VLT siteholder agreement.

Consequently, the VLTs which were shut down on the 22nd will remain shut down until such time as Dakota Tipi is no longer in contravention of the agreement. An Honourable Member: You said the 17th. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for River East. Ms. McGifford: Let me correct myself, it was on the 17th-[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. I had recognized the honourable Member for River East with her supplementary question because the honourable minister had sat down. Mrs. Mitchelson : Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. This has everything to do with provincial law.

My question is: Because this was an illegal agreement, signed on July 12, and David Doer had access to 15 percent of the video lottery terminal money, will this minister ensure that illegal agreement is terminated back to July 12 so that David Doer does not benefit by one penny from that illegal agreement? Ms. McGifford: Just to clear the record, apparently the agreement was signed on the 12th. It was on the 17th that VLTs ceased to operate on Dakota Tipi and it was on the 22nd that Lotteries officially shut them down.

Just so we have that straight. * (13:55) I have no control over an agreement between Dakota Tipi and Soaring Eagle. However, I can assure the member-Mr. Speaker, I would really appreciate if you would call the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen) to order. I am trying to answer a question. All I can hear is him mumbling on. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Soaring Eagle, I can tell the members opposite, has not received any payment from Dakota Tipi VL T revenues. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Since this issue has everytliing to do with accountability and accountability on behalf of the Government by a minister who is responsible for Lotteries in the province of Manitoba, will she guarantee there will not be a penny that flows to David Doer, not only as a result of the illegal agreement that was signed but as a result of any other activity on Dakota Tipi? Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, I have already shown accountability, as has the Manitoba Lotteries Commission by shutting down the VLTs on the 22nd. The same question has been asked four or five different ways.

I can also tell the member, as I just told her in my last answer, we can tell her that no VLT revenues have gone to Soaring Eagle. Dakota Tipi First Nation Soaring Eagle Agreement Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, we asked a number of times last week for the Doer government to end the VL T siteholder agreement with Dakota Tipi because they were not in compliance. The Doer government refused to act until the Bingo Palace was barricaded and staff could not enter.

Was the reason the minister refused to end the siteholder agreement last week because every extra day Dakota Tipi's Bingo Palace and the VL Ts stayed open it was money in David Doer's pocket? Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Advanced Education.

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4083 An Honourable Member: That is the most disgusting, sleaze politics, absolute sleaze. Joy "Sleaze" Smith, Len "Sultan of Sleaze" Derkach. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind all honourable members that we have visitors in the gallery and we also have the viewing public. If members wish to have conversations there is lots of room in the loges. You can go out in the hallway, go into your offices. There is lots of time for conversations. If you wish to have conversations, there is nothing wrong with open communications.

If you wish to have a conversation please do that, because decorum is very, very important to the viewing public and to all ofus. Also, during a question or an answer I have been asked to make rulings. How can you expect me to make a ruling if I cannot hear the question or the answer? So I ask the full co-operation of all honourable members, please. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): I am really shocked at the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) who allows his members to drag people's names through the gutter.

I think it is shameful. * (14:00) Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw the attention of the Member for Fort Garry to 1 Corinthians 13:13, now we have faith, hope and charity, and the greatest of these is charity. She should be ashamed of herself. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I just want to point out one of the Ten Commandments is: "Thou shalt not lie. " However- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, this is truly a regrettable situation. We cannot hear questions of substance.

On a point of order, the Member for Fort Garry clearly is out of order, using an unparliamentary word and reflected on an honourable member by using the word "lie" attributed to her. Would you please ask her to withdraw that comment and apologize? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader) : The minister was the first to quote from Scripture. I do believe if you open the Bible that is one of the Ten Comma ndments: "Thou shalt not lie," so I c�nnot believe we could rule the member out of order. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Government House Leader, at this time I would like to ask all members, it is getting a little loud in here. I would ask all members to kind of pick and choose their words carefully. What I heard the member state was more in general terms, from what I heard. I did not see it as being directed at one individual member. It was more in general terms. So I would rule at this time that the honourable Government House Leader does not have a point of order, but I would like to take this opportunity just to remind all honourable members that we have the public in the galleries.

We have the viewing public on television. I would ask all members just to pick and choose their words a little carefully. * * * Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, why did the Doer government allow those VLTs to stay open for 10 days when they knew the Premier's (Mr. Doer) brother signed an inappropriate agreement that saw him pocket 15 percent of every dollar spent in the Bingo Palace?

4084 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, the last two questions show just how little regard members have for really getting to the root of any of the issues here. They make a statement, an assumption that this Government knew. I want to put on the record the agreement was made between Dakota Tipi and Soaring Eagle. By the way, it is not illegal. It is in violation of the siteholder agreement. I think members should use the correct terminology.

Quite frankly, I said this on the record yesterday, it first came to our attention when it was tabled in this House. I do not know how members opposite came in contact with this but we have acted on it. For the member to get up and say we knew for 10 days. We did not know. We were not party to the agreement. Now we have found out about it. We have taken action, as we have with every issue that has been raised with Dakota Tipi ever since we came into government. Mrs. Smith: Mr.

Speaker, does the minister expect Manitobans to believe that no one, including the Premier, did not know that the Premier's own brother was getting 15 percent off the top? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, I would expect, in the year 2002, that we would get from this member some respect for trying to get to the bottom of what happened. For her to make an allegation that the Premier somehow knew about this I can say is a violation of everything this House is all about. This House is about asking questions. It is about making statements that you have some knowledge of fact.

It is not about starting a series of questions aimed at only one thing, a desperate attempt to impugn people, to smear reputations and to get away from the fact that when this Government has found out about any violation we have acted. Two and a half years ago Dakota Tipi was in non-compliance on major issues. We have acted every time an issue of concern has been raised and will continue to act. Gaming Control Commission Meetings-Soaring Eagle Accounting Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would like to remind members once again, if they wish to have a conversation, they can please use the loge, go in the hallway, go in their offices. There are lots of spaces to have a conversation. Decorum in this House is very, very important. I ask the co operation of all honourable members once again, please. Mr. Derkach : Well, Mr. Speaker, it is true that two years ago Dakota Tipi Gaming Commission was not in compliance with the gaming agreement, but it is also true that two years ago the Premier's (Mr. Doer) brother did not have a contract with Dakota Tipi to receive 15 percent of all revenues.

I want to ask the minister responsible for the gaming commission: Did, in fact, the Gaming Commission meet with David Doer in the meetings that were referred to by this minister in the House? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, I put on the record that the Gaming Commission has been in constant contact; first, with Dakota Tipi because Soaring Eagle was not contracted immediately by Dakota Tipi.

When we, in January, raised inadequacies of the financial statements, I put that on the record, and meetings have taken place with Dakota Tipi and with Soaring Eagle. Mr. Doer is a principal of Soaring Eagle. That has never been any secret in this House. Once again, I say to members opposite they either do not know or choose not to know the contractual arrangement. I want to put on the record again that it was Dakota Tipi and the federal government that hired Soaring Eagle. The provincial government has never had a contractual arrangement, has never hired Soaring Eagle, period.

Dakota Tipi First Nation Soaring Eagle Agreement Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I do not want to put words in the minister's mouth so I am going to ask him one more time. Since the commission, as he has confirmed in the House, did meet with Soaring Eagle, I am going to ask him whether he, as minister, was

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4085 aware that Soaring Eagle was indeed now the gaming commission responsible for VLTs at Dakota Tipi since July 12? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Mr. Speaker, if the member chose to examine the '94 agreement, and I have a copy of it, and the siteholder agreement-ironically he has tabled a copy himself in the House-l think he has chosen to not either read or understand.

As Gaming Minister, under the agreement they signed in 1994, our responsibility is in terms of licensing and having an agreement with the Gaming Commission. The issue he raised last week, which was a legitimate issue in terms of the 15 percent related to the siteholder agreement with Lotteries, the Gaming Commission is not a party to that. In fact, the first I became aware of that was here in the House, because the Gaming Commission, again, is not a party to the siteholder agreement. It is the same case, not just in Dakota Tipi but throughout the province.

So if the member is going to raise a legitimate concern about the 15 percent, I would ask he do that and not get into deliberate confusion about the framework that his government put in place in 1994 in Dakota Tipi. Gaming Agreement-Termination Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, has the minister now invoked the

section of the gaming agreement which says that he has 90 days to terminate the gaming agreement with Dakota Tipi, since in fact he is now aware that David Doer is in possession of a contract which in the laws of Manitoba and under the gaming act is illegal in this province? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Once again, we saw yesterday they cheapened the term "conflict of interest." We see today them cheapen the term "illegal" because it is in contravention with the siteholder agreement, which is a contractual agreement. It is in violation of that agreement.

To use the phrase "illegal," I think, is irresponsible of the member opposite and does not get to the bottom of this. * (14:10) I can indicate on the gaming side, Mr. Speaker, because last week this same member asked us to terminate the gaming agreement, the gaming agreement they signed required a 90-day notice provision. I have asked for legal advice in terms of if we have other options, recognizing that Lotteries has already acted in terms of the VLTs. They acted last week. Those VLTs remain closed, shut down at Dakota Tipi. Flooding Protection Infr astructure Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, today the Premier (Mr. Doer) is in Halifax as part of the premiers' meetings. His goal, I gather, is to enlist the support of other premiers for projects which are critical to Manitoba. While the Premier has indicated he is concerned about changes to disaster assistance when there is a flood or after there is a flood, I am quite surprised he is not pushing for funding support for infrastructure for disaster mitigation and flood prevention for Winnipeg. My question is to the Deputy Premier (Ms. Friesen).

Why is the Premier not seeking support from other premiers for a national initiative to support infrastructure for disaster prevention? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I want to put on the record this Government has taken a lead role in dealing with disaster initiatives across the country. In fact, most recently we received a commitment from the new minister, John McCallum.

I think it was a very productive approach from his part to have a national meeting of ministers of disaster assistance, something that has not happened and I thought should have happened following 9-11 with many of the ramifications for 9-11 in terms of disaster issues. Our Premier right now is currently leading the provinces in demanding that there be no erosion of DF AA. One of the items we put on the agenda with the federal government consistently is that we need to maintain the integrity of DFAA, but also we need to do what we have done in the past, continue to do, to have

4086 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 mitigation in place for that kind of infrastructure, the main one of which is the floodway. I wish the member opposite would support that and support the parties in this province in trying to get that most significant mitigation put in place. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I am a strong supporter for flood protection for Winnipeg. That is why I asked this question. My question is to the Deputy Premier, who is responsible for infrastructure programs.

I wonder if it is not on the Premier's list because the Premier believes that the support for the floodway or whatever other infrastructure is needed for protecting Winnipeg can be obtained through the joint federal-provincial strategic infrastructure program, which is underway at the moment. Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate if the member is now saying he supports the floodway, because I sat on the committee earlier. I must have missed something. I am pleased to see the change of mind.

I want to stress that indeed the provincial government has prioritized the floodway in terms of the strategic infrastructure program as it is developed. That remains our most significant priority in terms of that, but that does not exclude any other kind of arrangement and does not exclude other kinds of mitigation measures. One of the things we are going to be looking for in the experience of the most recent disaster in the southeast is ways in which we can prevent some of the damage that occurred in the future.

You cannot stop the weather event, but we know from past experience by sitting down and developing a mitigation strategy you can make a difference. Our Government is committed to both approaches. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, why has there not been an all-party task force meeting on the protection of Winnipeg and the Red River Valley for months and months if this is such an urgent issue? Why is the Premier (Mr. Doer) not bringing this up in Halifax? Does he believe he can get the funding without even bringing it up? Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, I think the member opposite may have missed that we have a premiers' meeting and that the real issue is going to come down to the Prime Minister, whoever that may be. I will not get into that. It comes down to a commitment by the federal government. So the issue here is whether or not we have raised it. We have. We called together an all-party task force, but our Premier has consistently said to the federal government a floodway is a top priority for this province. I am glad the Liberal leader is finally on board. I hope he will stay with us in fighting for federal action on this.

North American Indigenous Games Corporate Sponsorship Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Over the past three days at Tee Voc School at the lacrosse fields where I have been acting as a volunteer for the North American Indigenous Games, I noticed a number of corporate logos indicating that the business community is actively involved in the games. Could the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism (Mr. Lemieux) give some indication to the House of the level of support the business community is providing in support of the North American Indigenous Games? Hon.

Ron Lemieux (Minister responsible for Sport): I thank the member for the question. As we all know in Manitoba, we are extremely proud of our volunteers who day in, day out, I would venture to say, are the greatest volunteers anywhere in Canada and anywhere in the world. We also have a corporate community that gets behind many, many events, as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) will know from the Pan Am Games. The corporate community steps up in Manitoba. There are many of them, not only the government of Canada and Manitoba and the City of Winnipeg, but there are many, Mr.

Speaker, such as the Free Press, APTN, Manitoba Hydro, Red River community college, Mohegan Sun, Sheraton Winnipeg, Myers Weinberg, Y ouCanDoThat.com and many, many other corporations that are supporting this tremendously successful event. So I would ask all members in this House, any opportunity you get and any time Manitobans get an opportunity to thank the corporate citizens of this community for supporting an event, that they do so.

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4087 Hydra House Review Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): My question is to the Minister of Family Services. About 15 months ago he received a report from a senior civil servant in his department regarding Hydra House. I wonder if, in light of recent allegations, he is still satisfied that report was complete. Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr.

Speaker, our job in regard to providing care for extremely challenging and challenged people is to make sure the quality of care is there, to receive the same kind of financial accountability from chartered accountants signing off financial statements, as we were talking about some time earlier in Question Period. We are satisfied that the quality of service from Hydra House, the financial accountability that we receive is adequate. I know he is referring to the investigative reporter, so called, that put a series together for CBC.

The same allegations were raised more than a year ago and dismissed by all other media as basically a dispute between a former employee and his employers, this dispute being played out, at least attempting to be played out, through the media. We have made all of the normal and some quite extraordinary checks into this issue. We are satisfied that is what we are seeing as quality service, adequate ac countability and a dispute between a former employee and his boss. Mr. Cummings: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am not prone to being sucked down a rabbit hole either, but I am concerned that the minister does not believe there is any further review needed or desired, in his opinion, around Hydra House and the questions that are being raised. Is he not prepared to review this with the Auditor General? Mr. Sale: The Auditor General, I believe, has already met with one of the complainants, well, the only complainant, Mr. Small. The Auditor General, of course, is free to make his own decision as to whether any further audit is required. When we did our investigation, we met with the company's auditor.

We received adequate explanations for the allegations that Mr. Small had made. * (14:20) I would suggest that many of the allegations, really, are matters for Revenue Canada, and if Revenue Canada of course chooses to audit this company they have every right to do so and to insist on answers to any questions they might have about whether or not there has been appropriate income tax accounting for the use of funds in the company. That of course is a federal matter. We are concerned about the quality of service to vulnerable Manitobans.

Hydra House has a reputation in this community for working with extremely, and I underline "extremely," difficult and often violent people. They do a very good job of caring for people, which other agencies have actually refused to provide plans for. So we value their service. We think their accountability is adequate. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member's time has expired. Also, the time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Military Homecoming Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the constituents of Tuxedo and the PC caucus, I rise today to draw attention to a memorable and wonderful event. Yesterday, 140 soldiers of Winnipeg's Second Battalion PPCLI and 40 soldiers of the CFB Shilo-based First Regiment Royal Canadian Horse Artillery returned home to their waiting families and friends after serving our country in Afghanistan. These soldiers returned home last night after serving six months in the campaign that helped fight global terrorism and bring down the ruling Taliban government.

These soldiers risked life and limb for their country and once again fought for democracy around the world. We are extremely proud of their commitment and dedication to fighting for the very freedoms we should never take for granted. They continued the fight for freedom and democracy, the fight our parents, grandparents and great-grandparents have fought f{)r hundreds of years on behalf of our great country, Canada.

4088 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 I would also like to take this opportunity today to remember four great Canadian soldiers we lost in April during the training exercise in Afghanistan. Pte. Richard Green, Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, Sgt. Marc Leger and Pte. Nathan Smith were all killed on that day in April. Our thoughts, prayers and grateful, heartfelt thanks go out to the soldiers and their families. We thank them for defending our way of life.

Among the 180 soldiers who returned home yesterday at least three of the soldiers returned home to greet new sons and daughters that their wives had given birth to while they were in Afghanistan. In fact, one story from a Winnipeg family is that Corporal Alonzo Hampton met his 11-day-old son for the first time. Last night he got to hold his newborn son for the first time. As someone who has recently had a child of my own, I understand from personal experience the overwhelming joy that accompanies bringing a new life into the world.

I want to congratulate all the family members who have been united with their loved ones for the first time since the birth of their children. It felt great to drive through my constituency of Tuxedo and see all of the yellow ribbons and signs painted with "Welcome home daddy," "Thank you all," and happy families awaiting the arrival of a son or daughter, husband or wife, mother or father, home from Afghanistan. Mr. Speaker, these men and women can only be known as one thing, heroes. They are the heroes of a new world, a new time, a new war.

On behalf of the constituents of Tuxedo and the PC caucus, I would like to congratulate and thank these wonderful people for being our heroes and for making us proud. Welcome home, soldiers. We salute you. Golden Boy Project Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to update the House on the progress of the Golden Boy project. Yesterday, July 29, the Golden Boy was moved to The Forks. The Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Ashton) and Bill Norrie, the former mayor and chair of The Forks-North Portage Board, began his unveiling.

Over the next two or three days his travel case will be removed and a protective glass case will be built around him to allow the final stage to proceed. Beginning Tuesday, Michael Kramer will oversee the application of gold on this provincial symbol. This final process will take three to five days. Once the gold has been applied, he will be on display until the end of September. This project continues to move forward on time and on budget. I would also like to update all members about the Golden Boy merchandising efforts.

This part of the project is going well with the final items, golf shirts, historic books, et cetera, arriving next week. These items will complete the adult shirts, pins, kids' shirts, postcards, et cetera, on site. Manitobans have supported the idea of financially contributing to this historic project by purchasing souvenirs and these mementos.

I would like to thank the Government staff as well as The Forks Market, Dillon Consulting, Alpha Masonry, Litz Crane, Bristol Aerospace, ISIS Canada, Bayco Industries, Pritchard Machine, Manitoba Museum and The Winnipeg Foundation who have contributed to this historic project. I would also like all Manitobans to feel comfortable coming and seeing this historic monument up close. It is a great location because there are two levels of viewing so people can see it. It is going to be at a great location because The Forks is a tourist site.

It is a site where there are multiple venues to see it and it is a great project. I invite all people to go down to The Forks and see this project from now until the end of September. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Little Saskatchewan Conservation District Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, in a very informal way I would like to simply stand in the House today and recognize the opening of a new office for the Little Saskatchewan Conservation District, which took place yesterday in Oak River. The conservation districts of Manitoba have made great strides in the past number of years in

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4089 looking after our environment and ensuring that conservation projects across this province are looked after by a group who understand, if you like, the quality of life in the rural part of our province and understand the issues that confront them as far as conservation, sustainability and economic development. I was pleased that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen) was out at the opening yesterday. Indeed she participated in the Manitoba Conservation Districts As sociation tour.

I want to congratulate her for starting three new conservation districts in the province since she has come into government. With these few words, I simply want to congratulate the Manitoba Conservation Districts Association and the Little Sas katchewan Conservation District for the work that they have done on behalf of many residents in this province. Legislative Interns Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, as the NDP caucus representative on the Legislative Internship Administrative Com mittee, it is my pleasure to recognize and thank all of the legislative interns.

It is appropriate that I do so today, on July 31, since this is the last day of work for this year's six legislative interns. The interns have provided both caucuses with invaluable help for the past 11 months. They now get to spend the month of August completing a research paper which will even tually be catalogued and available in the Legislative Reading Room. I want to take a moment to thank the 2001- 2002 interns. Working in our caucus were John Crookshanks, Greg Kristalovich and Ciara Shattuck. I also salute the interns who worked with the Opposition caucus: Allison Abra, Matthew Enns and Julie Goertzen.

I am sure they served their caucus well. Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the interns for all their hard work. Manitoba's Internship Programm e is one of the best in Canada. I am sure that this year's group has learned a lot about the legislative process. I hope their experience will serve them well in their future careers. I want to add that this month of August is going to be very hard without our interns around to help us. An example of that is that this is the 75th member's statement that John Crookshanks wrote, and now we are on our own. We are going to have to do some of our own research and writing. Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of all of us I wish to thank the interns and to wish them much success in their futures and hope that we see them again. Flooding Protection Infr astructure Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I would like to put on the record two items. First, I would compliment the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) for the program for first episode psychosis. This is a step forward and one that I have called for for some time.

The second point that I would like to make is the importance of presenting at all forums, including the premiers' forum, the importance of infrastructure for flood protection for Winnipeg. We will need to be spending over the next several years several hundreds of millions of dollars-$800 million is often a figure that is mentioned, but it may be somewhat less or somewhat more, depending on the end result-on flood protection for the city of Winnipeg. We have an all-party task force which has met twice but has not met in quite a long time.

So this seems to have dropped in priority on the Government side, but it is very important that this is brought forward at the premiers' con ference, because when we are dealing with a major initiative like this it is important to get the support of other premiers for a very important Manitoba initiative. I would suggest that other premiers have disaster prevention or mitigation initiatives that they would like to have on the table.

I would suspect that there would be some significant support from other premiers for this sort of initiative to make sure that we are working hard all across Canada, particularly in Manitoba of course, to prevent future disasters.

4090 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is leave to waive private members' hour today? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to waive private members' hour for today? {Agreed} Mr. Mackintosh: Would you please canvass the House to see if there is agreement to vary the sitting hours of the House for next week, so that in addition to regular hours the House will also sit on Tuesday and Wednesday mornings from 10 a.m. to 12 noon? * (14:30) Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement of the House to sit next week, Tuesday and Wednesday mornings from 10 to 12? Is there agreement? [Agreed} Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, first, would you please call report stage of the bills in the order they appear on page 2, with the exception of 19? REPORT STAGE Bill 22-The Public Schools Amendment Act (Francophone School Division Governance Structure) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms.

Friesen), that Bill 22, The Public Schools Amendment Act (Francophone School Division Governance Structure); Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques (structure de gestion de Ia division scolaire de langue francaise ), as amended and reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Bill 32-The Fatality Inquir ies Amendment Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that Bill 32, The Fatality Inquiries Amendment Act, as amended and reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, be concurred m. Motion agreed to. Bill 33-The Private Vocational Institutions Act Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that Bill 3 3, The Private Vocational Institutions Act, as reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Bill 34-The Charter Compliance Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that Bill 34, The Charter Compliance Act,

Loi sur }'observation de la Charte, as reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Some Honourable Members: No. Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour of adopting the motion, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to the motion, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): On division, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: On division.

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4091 Bill 43-The Polar Bear Protection Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Ms. Friesen), that Bill 43, The Polar Bear Protection Act, as reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. * * * Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you please call debate on second readings of bills in the order they appear on page 3, but excluding numbers 12 and 27. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 2-The Security Management (Various Acts Amended) Act Mr.

Speaker: Resume debate on second reading of Bill 2, The Security Management (Various Acts Amended) Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for St. Norbert. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we have had numerous meet ings over Bill 2 now, and I do believe that the Government will be bringing forward some amendments at committee stage. So we are pre pared to see this bill move to committee. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? {Agreed] Bill 17-The Cooperatives Amendment Act Mr.

Speaker: Bill 17, The Cooperatives Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner). Is it the pleasure of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Steinbach? Some Honou rable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? {Agreed] Bill 20-The Adult Learning Centres Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 20, The Adult Learning Cen tres Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshamm er). Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak to Bill 20, The Adult Learning Centres Act. This bill has been brought forward as a result of the Auditor's report into the operation of learning centres in the province. Certainly, the Auditor was correct in indicating that there should be some structure around learning cen tres. I would say that the bill indicates that there needs to be a definition of the roles and goals of the adult learning centres. There are issues around the ownership of assets, the funding sur pluses and the responsibility for deficit, which need to be dealt with.

This act, in fact, assists in that matter. There is also the issue of the adult learning centres and the school divisions that they are partnered with, where we have had a policy vacuum in the past. There are issues around performance measures, as far as the adult learning centres are concerned, and the need for accountability and reporting. When the adult learning centres came into being and were growing, they were treated very much like the public school system. One of the issues with the public school system is that enrolment is always measured on the September 30 date.

For the public school system, that tends to work reasonably well, although one could find certain problems with that if one were to be critical of the public school system and the way they account for students. However, that did not serve the Government and the province well when it came to adult learning centres because this is a completely different atmosphere with a completely different set of students who are accessing these adult learning centres, and to be forced to report enrolment on September 30 led to some prac tices which were the basis for many of the

4092 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 problems which adult learning centres found as they developed and grew. The Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) has on a number of occasions spoken about the adult learning centres and this policy vacuum that existed. I daresay he became aware of this in the fall of 1999 with the report done for the Gov ernment by Deloitte & Touche, and the minister had an opportunity to act much sooner on this issue.

There were other actions that the minister could have taken in the fall of 1999 when the adult learning centres were highlighted in the Deloitte report showing this growth of the num ber of students and the way that they were funded. I think that the minister and the Govern ment deserve a fair amount of this credit for not acting sooner because the problems were pointed out in the Deloitte report at that time and could have been dealt with much sooner.

Legislation could have been brought in in the fall of 1999 or the spring of the year 2000. * (14:40) The minister did comnusswn what was called the Ferris report. This was a hand-picked consultant by the Government to look at the adult learning centres, and I suspect the Govern ment wanted a different result from the Ferris report than what they got. Certainly, the Ferris report pointed out that there were issues around policy and policy development which the Gov ernment should attend to.

Again, this was point ed out to the Government in the fall of 1999 and the early winter of the year 2000 when this hand picked consultant visited, looked at and studied the adult learning centres in the province. Now, the other part of the report, other than the fact that there was a policy vacuum there, the Ferris report had many positive things to say about the adult learning centres.

The Ferris report pointed out to the Government that much of what was happening in adult learning centres was quite different than the public school system and gave the adult learning centres and the school divisions involved credit for the job that they were doing. It pointed out that the public school system dealt with students who were in their latter teenage years and had to be operated much differently.

The adult learning centres were working because they recognized that they were dealing with adults, and they were treating them as adults and providing to some degree some flexi bility, so that adult learners, who had really a number of hard knocks in their life, had dropped out of school. Some of them had started families early. Many of them were economically dis advantaged, and the adult learning centres were in many ways kind of a lifesaver for them to get further education and training and further skills development which would get them into the workforce.

So the Ferris report, I think, was very instructive to the Government, and I am sur prised that they gave the Ferris report no publi city at all, because I do not think they wanted to hear that there were positive things happening in the adult learning centres. The information about the governance of adult learning centres was truly highlighted in the Ferris report, and I do believe that the Minister of Education (Mr.

Caldwell), who has been so critical of Morris Macdonald School Division and others who were in the adult learning business, could have put in place policies immediately to deal with the adult learning centres. They could have become more actively involved in the short comings that were pointed out in the Ferris report and were later pointed out by the prov incial auditor when he tabled his report in the spring of 2001.

So I think the Government deserves a cer tain amount of blame for what happened with the adult learning centres throughout the year 2000 and going into 2001, because they full well were apprised of the issues and they did not take the remedial action that was necessary to make those changes.

In fact, and I have an editorial from the Winnipeg Free Press from April 15 of the year 2002 called "Sharing the blame," and it certainly indicates in the editorial that Morris Macdonald had made some mistakes along the way in terms of their interest and their involve ment in millions of dollars of compensation from the provincial government. But it also points out that the Minister of Education was not helpful and did not accept any of the blame for the development of adult learning centres. Many of these difficulties happened under his watch.

Yes, there was a policy vacuum there, but the respon sibility should have been shared by this Govern ment, by this minister, and, of course, we have questioned the competence and credibility of this

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4093 minister over this issue and other issues, because when he was so eager to hamm er Morris Macdonald School Division, on the other hand, for very different reasons, he was giving a sweetheart deal to Agassiz School Division. The Auditor's report, and it is referred to in this editorial as a broad estimate and we dealt with this in committee on Monday, pointed out that somewhere between $2.4 million and $4 million was given to school divisions because of overstated enrolment, and this is a broad esti mate.

The Auditor explained that to the com mittee on Monday of this week, but the minister and the Government have never said anything about the department's role. It is not believable in my mind that officials in the Department of Education were not fully aware of what was happening in the adult learning centres and no one from the Department of Education, in terms of the deputy minister or the minister, has stepped forward to take some of that responsi bility. Instead, Mr. Speaker, they have been busy deflecting the attention on this issue to Morris Macdonald School Division.

I say to them that, while they found a scapegoat here, they should have stepped up to the plate and taken some of the responsibility for what happened at that time. They made no effort in 1999, and the year 2000, the early part of 2001, to work with their part ners in adult education to find some of the solutions. And there were solutions. When the Deloitte report pointed out, in the fall of 1999, that there was an overexpenditure in the adult education line, there was knowledge at that time that there was an issue here. I would say to members of the Government, the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selinger) and others that there were options at that time that they could have taken to remedy the situation, yet they let it grow and get worse as time went on. Getting back to this bill, yes, it does comply with what the provincial auditor had in mind when he gave his report. It does provide that framework, that government structure for adult learning centres, and, to that degree, this is a positive step. We would like to have this go to committee. I know there is great interest within the province on this particular issue.

There is great interest in the school division of Morris- Macdonald who, as the Free Press editorial has said, have been used as a scapegoat in this issue. They are not blameless. They certainly were part of some of the problems that developed, but the minister and the department need to step up to the plate and indicate that they knew some of these issues in 1999, certainly in the year 2000, and they did nothing about it. So this act is one that there will be a number of presenters, and we look forward to those presentations at com mittee. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is second reading of Bill 20, The Adult Learning Centres Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 21- The Partnership Amendment and Business Names Registration Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Second reading, Bill 21, The Partnership Amendment and Business Names Registration Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan). Is it the pleasure of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Carman? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr.

Speaker: Any speakers? Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] * (14:50) Bill 23-The Pesticides and Fertilizers Control Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 23, The Pesticides and Ferti lizers Control Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourabie Member for Arthur Virden (Mr. Maguire), who has five minutes remaining. Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Arthur-Virden?

4094 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No. It has been denied. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I rise just to put a few words on the record. This Pesticides and Fertilizers Control Amendment Act would provide for licences for certain circumstances where there are individuals who will be putting hog waste and other manure products on agri cultural fields.

I have talked to a number of indi viduals in the industry, and it is my under standing that the large hog operators, in general, Pierre Paul Fielfar [phonetic}, for example, support this sort of licensing because they want to make sure that individuals who are putting manure are licensed and can be held accountable and responsible. I think that this is a reasonable development. It provides security and certainty for individuals in this industry, the large operators, clearly, in a recent example just west of Winnipeg.

There are quite a significant number of acres on one field which are growing virtually nothing, because the hog waste was not applied appropriately. We want to make sure that farmers are protected from hog waste being applied inappropriately and also that people who are operating in this industry, where they are hiring people, that there is adequate protection. Mr.

Speaker, I think that there are, however, some areas of this legislation where there are concerns, that we need to make sure that people's homes and businesses are not invaded without appropriate search warrants, that where there are circumstances of small operators and small farmers, they do not have to be subject to the potential problems when they are putting waste from a small hog operation onto their own fields or onto neighbours' fields.

I think it is important that as this bill proceeds through consideration at the committee stage and later on, that we make sure that this legislation is given a careful look, so that there are not problems in the industry as a result of this being passed in an accelerated fashion, yet at the same time we have adequate protection for individuals who work in the industry to make sure that things are done in an excellent and environmentally sound way. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. Mr.

Speaker: The question before the House is Bill 23, The Pesticides and Fertilizers Control Amendment Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 24-The Securities Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 24, The Securities Amend ment Act, standing in the name of the honour able Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen). Is there leave for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Fort Whyte? No? It has been denied. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed} Bi1131 -The Medical Amendment (Physician Profiles and Miscellaneous Amendments) Act Mr.

Speaker: Bill 31, The Medical Amendment (Physician Profiles and Miscellaneous Amend ments) Act, standing in the name of the honour able Member for Charleswood. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Bill 31 has come about because of Justice Murray Sinclair's inquest report on the pediatric cardiac deaths at Health Sciences Centre, and Paul Thomas has recommended that physician pro files be made accessible to patients. This particular bill, Mr.

Speaker, is enabling legislation and, as such, does not give much detail or description in terms of what sort of information about physicians is going to be made available in their profile. It is particularly not clear at this time whether physicians' success rates and mortality rates will be included in the profiles. There is a working group with representatives from the College of Physicians and Surgeons, the Mani toba Medical Association and Manitoba Health who will be determining the content of the profiles and the venues through which they will be available.

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4095 The minister has indicated a little bit about what might be in the profiles, and he indicated that a physician's education, employment history and specialty might be some of the aspects in that profile, and any disciplinary decisions are also to be included. But the bill does not indicate any process through which experience of the hospital and/or surgical team will be made available.

The minister has been unable to indi cate precisely when the profiles will be available to the public and, when pressed about the cost of the particular project, said it would be in the millions of dollars. The Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) has also made a statement, and I would quote his statement: I think it could be safely said, if all the measures we have put in place to this point had been put in place, it is highly unlikely we would have found ourselves in the position we did in the early 1990s. Mr.

Speaker, physician profiles will be use ful to some degree, but I think the minister is presenting them as something more than what they really are. The baby deaths could have been prevented if the system did not fail, if Doctor Odim's references had been checked, if nurses had been listened to, if anesthetists had been listened to, if new doctors were monitored more closely. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair I had a very long conversation the other day with one of the nurses involved in the baby death inquest.

She said, well, it is a small step to build ing accountability and transparency in the sys tem. She did not feel that physicians' profiles would have done much to prevent the baby deaths. Doctors reporting errors by other doctors is what needs to happen. Doctors listening to nur ses is what needs to happen. Respect for skills of professionals one works with needs to happen. Formal performance appraisals, perhaps, for physicians would help where remedial action plans could be developed afterwards to deal with the weak areas of some body's performance.

What we have heard so far is that the profile could include information about a doctor's education, certification, recognition of achieve ments, convictions under relevant legislation, a description of disciplinary actions and medical malpractice judgments, but will these profiles show how often, for instance, a surgeon has done a particular procedure? Will it address suc cess rates, mortality rates? Will it address how a hospital's program compares to those elsewhere? Nowhere in it does it mention the employment history of the physician.

So one of the most significant elements of a physician profile, which is where that person has worked and what he has done within that practice, would not be available at all. I think that is one of the more significant points that have been left out. It also will not have any indication, it does not appear, of any surgical clinic affiliations or {)ther hospital affiliations a doctor might have. Basi cally, Mr. Deputy Speaker, patients put their lives in the palm of the hand of a physician, so I do not think it is too much to ask for some of these qualifications.

One thing that is of particular concern to me and it was a phone call I had not long ago related to one of the doctors that had been involved with the pediatric deaths. That is the local cardiologist here who was the person that had been referring these patients to Doctor Odim, and, in fact, was an integral part of the whole process. This physician, following the inquest, has moved to the United States. * (15:00) I have been told that the site where he is now working in the United States has physician profiles. Do you know what, Mr. Deputy Speaker?

Seven years of his Winnipeg experi ence is missing on that profile. I think that says a lot about physician profiles. If you can eliminate seven years of your experience and, in this case, it was seven years of experience that certainly would have acknowledged some of the problems that this physician had here, was basically left out, deliberately, of that physician profile. If a doctor can say, well, I had a bad experience for seven years and so I do not want that infor mation on the profile, it is eliminated. So, then, what good are physician profiles?

This particular person, who was on the Web site and had noticed that this cardiologist, seven

4096 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 years in Winnipeg, was not even on the profile, phoned down to where this physician worked in the United States and said, you know, what is happening here? This almost seems to be a lie by omission where this doctor has not put forward those seven years, which were absolutely cru cial.

If we are saying that physician profiles are going to help us to address the challenges of people being able to determine a doctor's experi ence and a doctor by omitting this information therefore misleads about his experience, then physician profiles will have absolutely no validi ty whatsoever. I stand back and I look at physician profiles and I ask the question: How would having that information on a Web site have prevented this from happening?

There were so many other gaps in the system, so many failures in the system that if the systemic problems had been addressed we would not have been in the position of having the problems. While I think the physician profiles in and of themselves will have some merit, I certainly question the degree of merit, because the minis ter is certainly making them out to be something that is going to be highly significant in pre venting medical errors. Mr.

Speaker in the Chair While I agree that there is certainly some merit to having more accountability in the sys tem, more transparency in the system, it cer tainly is not the be-ali and end-all and certainly may not in any way prevent some deaths. I think you need to really address the sys temic changes in the system which truly would have prevented those baby deaths, but also we have to look at the whole issue of medical errors. I look forward to more opportunity here as we move through discussion on this particular bill. I look forward to more discussion about looking at outcome analysis.

I look forward to more discussion on medical errors. I think we have to find ways to put more teeth into this particular bill, because right now with the bill the way it is and until the regulations come out on it, we really do not have much of an idea as to what will be included in those profiles. Those profiles could be very sparse, as many of them in the United States are, and therefore they will really be quite useless. If we want to make sure that they have some meaning to them, they are definitely going to have more teeth put into them. As this is only enabling legislation, Mr.

Speaker, we are going to have to wait until the regulations come forward. So I certainly look forward to what com ments will arise out of committee on this. I do hope that we can have a good debate and dis cussion on it, but there is much work yet to be done in this whole area if we want to prevent future baby deaths or any other deaths. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to comment on Bill 31, The Med ical Amendment Act. I am in general support of this legislation, but I do have some issues and some questions that I would like to raise.

First, I think it is important to recognize that in putting forward the physician profiles, as is being proposed here, that what is in those profiles is critically important. I think it is also important that there be some method of ensuring that what is present is accurate and complete. I think that, when we look at physician profiles and the results of physician practice, the out comes as well as the incomes, that we should learn from what has been done in a number of jurisdictions. I would include Ontario as an exam ple.

Though the Government has suggested that this is the first attempt to provide physician profiles in Canada, in fact, in Ontario, they have been reporting standardized mortality rates for cardiac surgery for a number of years. These are the results of physician practice. Although in On tario they may at this point be reported by hospital, in many other jurisdictions these are reported by individual surgeons, in New York state, for example.

This reporting of standardized mortality rates has been done in Ontario and has proved in a variety of jurisdictions to have a beneficial effect on outcomes to decrease mortality rates, to

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4097 improve quality of surgery, to change patterns of practice so that the overall quality of care that is provided is indeed increased. I believe that this is really the goal that we have here, that citizens of Manitoba want the sort of information that will give them a chance easily and quickly to determine whether this is the kind of physician or surgeon that they would like to have treating them. The information needs to be presented in as standardized and as simple and as useful a way as it possibly can be.

That is one of the reasons I suspect that Ontario and a number of other jurisdictions have moved to present standardized cardiac mortality rates, because in fact it has been proved and shown to be useful in decreas ing mortality rates and ef fectively allowing hospitals as well as citizens to be on top of the circumstances in their jurisdiction and to make informed decisions about which surgeon or which hospital they would prefer to go to because of what is available publicly on the out comes of medical practice.

So I would suggest that it is quite important when we consider legislation and the regulations which come from this that the goal here is to measure outputs in a simple, standardized way that will make a difference in terms of the quali ty of care and the practice and ensure that citizens in this province are informed as to the quality of care that is being delivered and be able to make informed decisions as to which cardiac surgeon, for example, they might want to be their surgeon.

I think, as we have seen in recent discussion of surgeons in Manitoba and the recent Krindle report on the handling of a particular surgeon, that the assessment of physician performance and the measures that are used to evaluate the work of physicians and surgeons are issues which need to be addressed carefully and with due consideration.

It is no longer good enough, I would say, that we rely on anecdotal opinions from indi viduals and that we in fact move to a circum stance where there is a clearer mechanism for assessing. * (15:10) I was quite surprised, for example, in the report of Justice Krindle, that there was not really a satisfactory resolution to the funda mental issue of whether the surgeon, Doctor Del Rizzo, was a good surgeon or not. There were certainly a number of complaints, but I think one has to be careful in terms of judging the com plaints and evaluating the whole performance of a surgeon.

Clearly, the problem here was not the job that Justice Krindle did. She was a very credible individual with a lot of integrity and addressed the question that she was given, the process, in a careful manner, as one might, from a legal perspective, was that process that was undertaken adequate. Well, I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that the problem was the way that the Government approached this, and the Government and the arm of the Government, the WRHA, set up a process which looked not at the question was Doctor Del Rizzo a competent and excellent surgeon, but looked, rather, at some peripheral issues of process and that, in trying to look just at the issue of process, the Government has missed the fundamental question.

It is too bad that this Government tried to manipulate the results in this kind of political manipulation fashion because, when you do that, just as the Government did when it moved by stealth to spray people in Wolseley without proper notice at 3 in the morning, what you do is you undermine the whole system. You undermine the approach that we would like in this province, which is based on credible evaluation based on evidence.

I looked in the Krindle report, for example, to see whether there was numbers there for the mortality rates for the surgical procedures that were conducted by Doctor Del Rizzo and how these surgical procedures' mortality rates com pared to other surgeons and to other juris dictions, whether it be Ontario or New York or other places around the world, but that was not there. There was no objective assessment of how good a surgeon this is, that Doctor Del Rizzo is or was in fact now. It was curious that, when asked point blank by Charles Adler on CJOB, Dr. Brian Postl, of

4098 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 the WRHA, had to admit that for, at least some procedures, WRHA believes that Doctor Del Rizzo was a very good surgeon. Well, that is kind of interesting because it would have been important to have the ability to have an objective assessment. That really is the goal here when we are looking at physician profiles, to treat people, health care providers and citizens fairly and not try to manipulate things so that things are hidden or camouflaged or the way the Government would like to see them instead of what people, citizens should be able to get access to.

One of the areas, for example, that I had expected to see in the Krindle report was infor mation or reports from the patients themselves. Surely, in a health care system, what we are trying to do is to do the best for patients. We are trying to improve the quality of care. As people like Janice Gross Stein have argued in The Cult of Efficiency, we need to look evaluate and respond to input from patients, from people who are using the health care system, because their input is fundamentally important. It is a measure of how well the system is working.

People who use the system and receive care should not be forgotten in an evaluation. We do not know at this point precisely what the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) is going to put on these physician reports, but clearly one of the things that is needed in an objective evalu ation of physicians like that of Doctor Del Rizzo is some measured input from patients. We do not know in the case of Doctor Del Rizzo, for example, to what extent this was even sought. It is not clear from the Krindle report. There are too many questions which are unanswered.

It is too bad because it was an opportunity to bring closure to this issue, to have people in Manitoba know whether or not Doctor Del Rizzo was a good surgeon. Clearly, the debate that echoed on CJOB and the discussion that has been in the media around this issue shows that it is still continuing, that there are many who are concerned that the way physicians are assessed is not done in an objec tive fashion as it might be. I suggest so long as that continues, we are going to have problems because one needs to have objective evaluation.

I was surprised in the Krindle report that there was no mention of evaluation of Doctor Del Rizzo's contribution in the area of research. Research is the forward edge of where things are going in a medical surgical fashion, and it is my understanding that Doctor Del Rizzo has been involved in quite advanced research at the St. Boniface Research Centre, and indeed in con versations with Dr. John Foerster, I understand that he is quite well regarded.

Surely, if you are going to evaluate the performance of a physician like Doctor Del Rizzo, it should be done in an objective fashion and it should be done in a comprehensive fashion so that one knows what are the objective patient outcomes, so that one knows what do patient� think about this physician. Was he a good doctor? Did he respond well to their concerns? We should know if this is a physician who was able to make contributions in research or not These are kind of standard ways of evaluating physicians in work, partly in aca demic centre for a long, long time.

What we do not know in terms of the physician profiles is whether these aspects are going to be included in any fashion. Surely, it is a major shortcoming of, you know, what was in the Krindle report. I do not blame Justice Krindle; what I blame is the Gov ernment. The Government blew this. They made terrible errors in judgment in trying to manip ulate results. One of the other standardized ways of assessing physicians who work in academic centre is their contributions in the area of edu cation. We have no idea whether Doctor Del Rizzo was or was not a good teacher.

That is part of what he was doing, what his job was. I understand from second-hand that he was, from time to time, called in by surgeons because they valued his expertise. * (15 :20) The circumstance here was that surgeons sometimes went to Doctor Del Rizzo because they valued his expertise. Yet we have no infor mation that balances the information that is there. We have no real assessment of both sides. We have no standardized assessment of his con tributions to education. It is my understanding that Doctor Del Rizzo was even given an award.

I understand that it may have been by the Premier for his contributions. What a sorry state

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4099 of affairs when we cannot have in the physician profiles, the positive, the good things recorded about what physicians have done as well as the problems. Clearly, what we want to create in Manitoba is an environment where we stress and support a positive environment for health care providers, where we acknowledge the positive things that people are able to do as physicians and as surgeons. In order to do this, we need to provide standardized approaches. In this respect, this legislation is doing the right thing, but the issue here is in the deta ils.

Are we going to get outcome approaches like standardized mortality rates? Are we going to get standardized assess ments of individuals on an objective basis, on the reports from patients, on their performance in education and research, as well as on their surgical or other procedures? Mr. Speaker, increasingly, when we are looking at the performance of physicians, they are working as part of a team, not just a local team but a cross-Canada network or team or an international team. It may be physicians and sur geons from the United States and Canada or sometimes even broader.

In the case of Doctor Del Rizzo, there was a North America-wide database for cardiac surgery. Surgeons work together to improve out comes, to have standardized reporting so that people would be able to compare. These are the sorts of measures that are so important to have and to continue. It is troubling that there are rumours that this database is not being kept up as well as it might, and certainly from requests for access to information, the time to get that infor mation, the difficulties in getting it, it is certainly consistent with the fact that the database has not been maintained.

I would certainly feel that this general direction is the right direction, but it is tremendously important that we not only get the direction right but that we implement it. I have seen many times in government where there may be good intentions, but they have gone awry in the execution.

Clearly, this is an area where we need to work carefully to gether to make sure that the health care providers are treated in a way that is fair, that we are able to put and show positive things that people have done, that we are able to provide the outcome results, so that we can, in fact, know and, indeed, celebrate the outstanding, positive achievements that many health care providers in this province have been able to achieve. I think that in many areas we would find that the standards that are produced in this province are equivalent to anywhere in North America and indeed anywhere in the world.

But it is this sort of comparison between here and elsewhere that is so important in being able to show that. Sometimes we know these results from research studies, research networks, databases which are built and work together with other centres.

Clearly, this is an area where we need to make sure that, as we move on this bill and report outcomes and the features and the information about individuals' positions in this province, that we are, in fact, able to provide for people, citizens, patients, the kinds of information that will be useful, will allow people to make good decisions to improve the quality of health care. One of our goals is to empower individuals to be able to look after their health care better.

In being able to make choices among physicians based on good information, we will, in fact, not only improve individual care, but we will improve the overall care because this will become a part of the way that citizens in this province work and work to improve the quality of health. So I support this bill and this legislation in a general fashion as a step forward. I think it is quite important how it is implemented, that, in fact, it is done in a fair way and that it is done in a way that will highlight the positive contri butions in physicians, not just the negative aspect.

As we move and look at other health care providers, perhaps in the future, we want to make sure that what we do here with physician profiles sets us on the right course instead of being an expensive operation which does not achieve what our real objectives are. Those real objectives are to have something which is simple and useful and looks at outcomes and per formance and not just people's past history. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

410 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is Bill 31, The Medical Amendment (Physician Profiles and Miscellaneous Amendments) Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bi1136-The Drinking Water Safety Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 36, The Drinking Water Safe ty Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Gimli? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No. It has been denied. Mr.

Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I would only indicate that there are some aspects to this bill that we would like to pursue further at committee and recommend that this bill go to committee. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is Bill 36, The Drinking Water Safety Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] House Business Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) on House business. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On House business, Mr.

Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is leave to move to third reading of Bill 33, The Private Vocational Institutions Act? Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to go to third reading of Bill 33? [Agreed] THIRD READINGS Bill 33-The Private Vocational Institutions Act. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms. McGifford) that Bill 33, The Private Vocational Institutions Act, be now read for a third time and passed. Motion presented. Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Speaker, I will be very brief just with a few com ments on the record about this bill. Essentially, this bill is a response to some problems that have occurred as a result of the private vocational schools going bankrupt and leaving students without their tuition being reimbursed or having the opportunity to complete their courses. In principle, we are very supportive of pro tecting our students and ensuring that they receive a quality education in our province, but there are, however, just a few concerns that we do have with the bill that I would like to just make mention of today.

In light of our dynamic and changing econo my, the people of Manitoba are responding with demands for strong educational programs. Mani tobans wish to be current in their education and kept abreast of technology and skills demands. The Minister of Advanced Education has said that her Government assists students in their quest for further education, but she has in fact in some ways, Mr. Speaker, done the opposite. I would like to just say that the elimination of the Manitoba learning tax credit is, in fact, taking, on average, about $322 out of the pockets of post-secondary students in our province.

I guess when things like this happen I question the commitment that this Government has to the students of our province. Essentially, because this bill will require up to 1 percent of tuition fees to go towards a fund that will be set up to ensure that students can continue their education in the private vocational school area, I think one thing that is clear is that likely tuition fees will go up as a result of that. So I think it needs to be stated that tuition fees

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 4101 are likely to go up in the private vocational schools as a result of the setting up of this fund. * (15: 30) Bill 33 outlines legislation regarding the operation of private vocational schools. Voca tional schools are a vital part of the education system of Manitoba. They offer a large variety of educational programs, from hairstyling to massage therapy to computer technicians. Voca tional schools can be a viable alternative to university and community college programs.

I would endeavour to see that Bill 33 respects the right of the students and protects them as they pursue a career. I think that that is prudent. But I would also like to see that Bill 33 ideally respects the vocational institution itself as a valuable and respected education source in our provmce. Mr. Speaker, just to talk again just a little bit about some of the issues that we have a concern with, first of all the fact that tuition fees are likely to go up as a result of this, up to 1 percent of tuition fees going into a fund that will be managed, as I understand, by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger).

That leads me to another issue that I have some concerns with. In com mittee we introduced an amendment to the bill that would state that if the funds are not used over the next number of years for the purposes of the tuition fees as it is set out for in the bill, the question is what happens with the fund. As I understand, it says in the bill that it would only be used for these purposes, but that does not prevent anyone on the government side of this House to essentially introduce a bill that would eff ectively allow them to be able to raid this fund.

Given the fact that the Minister of Finance will be responsible for the management of this fund, I believe that, considering his track record with Manitoba Hydro, it would be prudent that this Government should have at least given consideration to our amendment that would allow more public consultation in the event of this Government seeing it incumbent upon themselves to raid this fund for the purposes of supporting their spending habits and their spending problems. I think that was a concern of ours and is a concern of ours.

I believe that, if the Government did not have anything to hide, they should have supported this amendment. They chose not to, at the committee stage. I would ask: Why would they not support it, and what would they have to hide? I do not see why they would not support it, unless there is something to hide. Just to let you know, there is an average of $7,000 in tuition fees, and there are currently 4393 students that attend vocational schools in Manitoba, in 2001. If 1 percent of all the tuition revenues are going into this fund, that equals just over $300,000 a year that will be going toward this fund. Mr.

Speaker, what happens if the fund is never touched? It leaves it open for this Gov ernment to essentially have the ability to go in and raid it. I just wanted to put that on the record, that we, on this side of the House, are not in support of this Government raiding funds, like the Minister of Finance and his Government has done with Manitoba Hydro. I believe that our job is to ensure that they not have the opportunity to do that and we prevent them from being able to raid these funds to support their spending problems. Having said that, that is all I have to say to this bill today, Mr. Speaker.

We are very sup portive of the students in our province, and we want to ensure that they are able to continue on with the educational opportunities that are of fered them through our private vocational schools in our province. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is third reading-[interjection} Order. The House is not ready for the question. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): I would like to stand the bill.

I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Charleswood, that this bill remain standing and debate adjourned. Motion Agreed to.

410 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you please call debate on second readings of bills as they appear on pages 4 and 5, with the exception of 39, 41, 49. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bi1137-The Non-Smokers Health Protection Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Resumed debate on second reading, Bill 37, The Non-Smokers Health Pro tection Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Charleswood. Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Charleswood? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: No?

It has been denied. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 38-The Public Health Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 38, The Public Health Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for St. Norbert. Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for St. Norbert? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: No? It has been denied. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I just want to put a few comments on the record in regard to this bill.

The goal of the bill is to reduce the supply of sniff to addicts, but there are certainly aspects of this bill that I am quite troubled with. I would like to put some of those concerns on record now, and I look forward to further comment on it once it reaches committee. But this bill, as it appears right now, appears to be an attack on business. It also has many aspects of concern to it, and, as I indicated, I would like to indicate what those are. This bill gives police and public health officials excessive power, and it can lead to a potential for abuse.

It gives justices of the peace arbitrary reach in doing their job. Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Non-Potable Alcohol and Inhalant Abuse Committee esti mates that there are more than 1400 everyday substances available for purchase that could be used as inhalants. So this certainly af fects a lot of businesses out there, as many of them sell all of these substances. Even in the Winnipeg Free Press they labeled an editorial that this law was dangerous. In fact, they indicated that it was a reach by this Government for desperate and offensive meas ures.

They certainly took a great deal of offence to this particular bill, and, certainly, those con cerns need to be heard. This bill appears to target vendors, such as retail outlets and gas bars , where vendors are forced to determine if there is reasonable basis to refuse to sell somebody a product. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, we know there is already legislation on the books where people 18 and under are already affected by such measures. What this bill does now is it extends the age limit, and there is no age limit as to who can be targeted, if you like, as people who might be affected by the bill.

In fact, the bill, in itself, does absolutely, really, nothing to offer anything to addicts who are struggling with a sniffing problem. Certainly, we do not dispute that when it comes to address ing the challenges of people addicted to sniff, we recommend any kind of measures as long as they are certainly measures that have some direct benefit to addicts and do not unfairly target any body in trying to address the situation. * {15 :40) What this does which seems to be the usual way for the NDP doing business is when you find an intractable problem, then do something that affects business and attack the business

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 410 3 world. That seems to be coming through in this particular legislation without offering anything to the addicts. It allows agents to enter premises and seize items when they have reasonable grounds to believe they are going to be sold for sniff, and, Mr. Speaker, this can be done without a warrant. It is up to these agents, whether it is police or public health inspectors, to determine what rea sonable grounds are. That is so wide open to

interpretation that you really have to wonder about people's rights. If substances are seized, the matter then goes before a justice of the peace for resolution. Well, Mr. Speaker, this ends up being nothing more than a kangaroo court. A justice of the peace gets to uphold the seizure of these items. The justice is not bound by the rules of law respecting evidence applicable to judicial pro ceedings, which means that this turns out to be nothing more than a kangaroo court. Police are forced to rely and should be relying on more than hearsay evidence in building a case for prosecution.

Then, when you take this forward before a justice of the peace for resolution, the bill really allows the trampling of due process. The bill could end up seeing retailers defending themselves against cases that included anonymous resident complaints about sniffers regularly leaving a store with brown paper bags. This is certainly wide open to a lot of inter pretation, and certainly an arbitrary reach by the justices.

Upon a finding by a justice of the peace that a retailer's goods ought to be seized, the Province can then yank the vendor's sales tax certificate or licence, which means he or she cannot sell good or services. The very, very alarming part about that is that the order of the justice of the peace, even though it has been somewhat of a kangaroo court hearing, the order of that justice of the peace is final and is not subject to any appeal. Well, certainly, due process, Mr. Speaker, appears to be trampled in all of this.

Shutting down somebody's business is attack on their livelihood and that ought to require stronger pro tection against abuse than what this act affords. This bill gets rid of due process which is a fundamental right. I think that is probably what led the Free Press in their editorial to label it a dangerous bill. Certainly, this bill does not appear that it will really do anything effectively for somebody who is struggling with trying to deal with sol vent abuse. In fact, it looks like an easy way out to try to make it look like a government is doing something, and it really is nothing more than a smoke screen.

In the process it is trampling due process. It certainly is, by doing that, af fecting rights of individuals. I think it will be important, Mr. Speaker, to hear from people at committee. In fact, the Manitoba Metis Federation president, David Chartrand, believes that Aboriginals and Metis people are going to be unfairly targeted by retailers who are afraid of, as he puts it, being nailed in this situation. I think he is right when he says, I am leery of putting pressure on retailers to be judge and jury. That is in fact what is going to happen.

People are going to go into a store, they are going to want to buy something and it is up to the vendor to make the determination if this adult or this person of a certain culture might be sniffing. I think Mr. Chartrand has certainly made some solid argument in here that people might be unfairly targeted. Certainly it is putting a lot of pressure on a vendor to have to be judge and jury. In fact, Mr. Chartrand has told us a story where he knows of one Metis man who was turned away at a Winnipeg drug store when he tried to buy cleaning supplies for his wife to use as cleaning supplies. Mr.

Chartrand says he was tom to shreds. Here was a grown man, he was crying and embarrassed. However, Mr. Chartrand says that much of the new bill is positive and there are aspects of it that perhaps have merit, particularly including going after people who buy solvents in bulk only to repackage them and sell them to addicts again. Definitely, the aspects of the bill dealing with that certainly do have merit. But there are a number of other aspects of the bill that really need to be addressed in more detail and we look forward to doing that at committee. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

410 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is Bill 38, The Public Health Amendment Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 40-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 40, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No?

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Biii 42-The Off-Road Vehicles Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 42, The Off-Road Vehicles Amendment Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie? Some Honourable Members : No. Mr. Speaker: No? Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed} Bill 45-The Budget Implementation and Tax Statutes Amendment Act, 2002 Mr.

Speaker: Bill 45 , The Budget Imple mentation and Tax Statutes Amendment Act, 2002, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner). Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Steinbach? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No? Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 46-The Elections Finances Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 46, The Elections Finances Amendment Act, standing in the name of the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Murray).

Is 'it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition? Some Honourable Members : No. Mr. Speaker: No? Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 48-The Legal Profession Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 48, The Legal Profession Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith). Is it the pleasure of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Fort Garry? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No?

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed} Bill 50-The Resource Tourism Operators Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 50, The Resource Tourism Operators Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner). Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Steinbach? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No? Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed]

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 410 5 Bill 51-The Statutes Correction and Minor Amendments Act, 2002 Mr. Speaker: Bill 51, The Statutes Correction and Minor Amendments Act, 2002, standing in the name of the honourable Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau). Is it the pleasure of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for St. Norbert? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No? Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] * (15 :50) Bill 53-The Common-Law Partners' Property and Related Amendments Act Mr.

Speaker: Bill 53, The Common-Law Part ners' Property and Related Amendments Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith). Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Fort Garry? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No? Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed} Bill 54-The Legislative Assembly and Executive Council Conflict of Interest Amendment (Conflict of Interest Commissioner) Act Mr.

Speaker: Bill 54, The Legislative Assem bly and Executive Council Conflict of Interest Amendment (Conflict of Interest Commissioner) Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith). Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Fort Garry? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No? Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed} House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on a matter of House business, it is that time of year for Interim Supply procedure, and I tum that over to the Finance Minister to move the appropriate motion. Mr. Speaker: We will now move to Interim Supply procedure. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), that the House resolve into Committee of Supply. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Interim Supply Mr. Chairperson (Conrad Santos): The Com mittee of Supply will come to order, please.

We have before us for our consideration two resolutions respecting the Interim Supply bill. The first resolution reads as follows: RESOLVED that a sum not exceeding $3,30 7,376,300, being 50 percent of the total amount to be voted as set forth in Part A Opera ting Expenditures of the Estimates, be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 2003. Does the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) have any comment? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): No comment. Mr. Chairperson: Does the opposition Finance critic, the honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr.

Penner), have any comments? Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): In addressing this need for finances, we are, of course, very concerned that the money is properly and wisely

410 6 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 31, 2002 invested and that it is well managed and that the taxpayers of Manitoba will be appreciative of the efforts of this House. Theref ore, I think it is incumbent upon us to review some of the com mitments and previous commitments of the Gov ernment and the advice that has been given to the Government and to examine the ultimate question. That is whether or not we are dealing with a balanced budget.

In so doing, I ask leave to ask some questions in regard to this request for funds to the Government. * (16 :00) My first question of the honourable minister is the issue of the effect on Manitoba of the federal accounting error. The error is described in the budget book as a federal-provincial tax collection agreement error where there was a transfer of funds made to Manitoba over the years relating to the method of taxation of mutu al funds.

We unknowingly received, and I do not know how that could happen, some large amount of money, probably in the area of $400 million at one point between '93 and '99, which were the mutual fund trust capital gains tax refunds. At some point it was indicated that the Budget could not be dealt with in a timely fashion this spring because of the error and the uncertainties around the error.

We disagreed with that discussion because we felt that the uncertainties could be named as an asterisk item in the Budget and that it would indicate that the uncertainties of the federal transfer would be dealt with with certain options. In other words, there were things that we could do or could not do depending on how the transfer was handled. I understand that the minister has made several trips to Ottawa, although, in the time that has elapsed, we also know that there has been a change in the federal Minister of Finance.

The previous Minister of Finance apparently was giving some confidence that the issue would be dealt with in a reasonable fashion. At this time, we have a Minister of Finance who probably does not have that same commitment. So we are back into the area of more uncertainty. I think the people of Manitoba would like to know where they stand on the federal transfer error, the accounting error. We actually do not believe that it is necessary to pay this back because historically that was not the way things were done.

We also believe that the withdrawal of $600-million worth of transfer payments in '94-95, which cre ated a problem with Manitoba's Budget, $600 million on Manitoba alone, was reason enough that the federal government should, after having withdrawn that money from our Budget, that was money from Manitoba taxpayers which they withheld to balance the federal budget, we be lieve that was an unfair withholding of money. We were surprised that the Doer government almost seemed interested in willing to pay back this error money.

We think it should have been demanded as an equalization payment for previ ous problems that were created by the federal transfers not being granted. So the question I would have of the Minister of Finance is: Where do we stand in Manitoba today in dealing with this federal accounting error? Mr. Selinger: I thank the member from Stein bach for that question. I have been in communi cation with the new minister of federal finance, Mr. John Manley. As recently as last week, we have discussed his plan to resolve this matter. I was in contact with him previous to that, right after his appointment.

On both occasions, he told me that he was going to pay attention to this issue. On the last discussion we had by telephone, he indicated to me that he has now been well briefed on the issue and understands it and gave me some comfort. He gave me no details, but he gave me some comfort that he thought the solu tion they were pursuing would be one that would not harm the interests of Manitoba in terms of its financial stability, that he had further consul tations to do at the federal level before he could give me details.

But he did assure me that he would, as soon as he nailed down some further support from senior officials in the federal government, be back to me about the details of what he was proposing and would give me a chance to react to it before he made any public announcements.

July 31, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 410 7 We have been in contact. I have received assurances from the new federal Minister of Finance that he is working on a solution that will not be negative for the province of Manitoba. I await further communication with him on the details of what that might be. Mr. Jim Penner: One of the things we noticed in the last day or so is that The Consumer Protection Amendment Act, Bill 12, will be left probably to die on the Order Paper. This is an example of hastily prepared legislation, which, I think, is costly to deal with.

It is costly to deal with in the House because now we have to go back to the drawing board. This has also been the case in several amendments, bills that had to be amended, like Bill 2. We are finding that not enough thought and research are going into the preparation of bills and even in the planning for the Budget. We noticed that a fair amount of funds are being removed from Manitoba Hydro, which Manitoba Hydro has to borrow to replace. We are wondering with whom did the honourable minister consult before he balanced last year's budget with taking money out of last year's Hydro revenue. · Mr.

Selinger: As I have indicated previously, last year was a year that was extremely chal lenging in the world, in terms of stability, both political and fiscal financial stability, in both the private and the public sector. The last budget before this one, we had predicted a slowdown in the economy from growth in the high 3% range to the low 2% range, about 2.4 percent.

Then we had the tragic events of September 11 in New York City, which had a pretty dramatic and negative impact on revenues for governments all over the world, particularly in North America, but also had a destabilizing impact on financial markets and stock markets, et cetera. What we started to see happening was a slowdown in certain types of revenues to the provincial government, particularly corporate in come tax revenues. They dried up very quickly by 60 percent. This year's '02-03 Budget had a dramatic reduction in corporate revenues of 60 percent versus the last year.

So we had to find a sensible approach to both managing costs and growth in expenditures and, at the same time, stabilizing the finances of the provincial govern ment. Our consultations on how to do that in clude

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-74
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 74.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5d8709269c083b0aaa188563b5762169d78dc306

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