Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 9B (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-9b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed Motion of the Hon ourable Memb er for The Pas, the Honourable Memb er for Pembina has 26 minutes remaining. The Honourable Memb er for Pembina. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. I would like to take this opportu nity to inform you that I have been designa ted as the spokesman for the Official Opposi tion on this matter, Mr. Speaker MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I wonder if the Min ister would excuse me a moment while I deliberate with the Deputy Clerk of the House. HON.

ROLAND PENNER, Attorney-General (Fort Rouge): Mr . Speaker, before you make your ruling, you presumably would probably have drawn to your attention, Rule 33( 2), and I would ask that you make your ruling on the basis of that Ru le. The member having risen and spoken as an ordinary member with out prior notice to you, as one designa ted in the capacity he now claims for himself, can't switch horses in mid-stream and I would ask that you rule that he complete his remarks as he began them, that is as an ordinary member of the Ho use. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Virden on the same point. MR.

HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): On a point of order, Mr . Speaker, I think it's very unfair to this Assembly for the Government Hous e Leader to order you to make a ruling on such-and-such a rule. That is the preroga tive of the Speaker to make his rulings according to the Ru les of this Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Ho use Leader. MR. PENNER: I ask that you make your ruling having drawn your atte ntion to that Rule. It will never be my role as it has been the role of some members opposite, to try to order the Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: I thank the two members who have spoken to the Point of Order and I would draw the Honour able Member for Pembina's attention to Rule 33(2)(

a) which has been quoted which does requir e that prior notice of the designa tion be gi ven to the Speaker in advance of a member speaking on behalf of the leader of a party. The fact that the Member for Pembina started speaking this afternoon at approxi mately 5:15, it would be my ruling that the member did not give the prior notice required by our rules. The member then is restricted to 40 minutes, and he has 26 minutes remaining. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I apolog ize for not giving you that prior notice. Mr .

Speaker, as I wound off at 5:30, I was indicating 234 the first and foremost failure that the First Min ister will deem on Manit obans as a result of the Throne Speech, and that being that my government is committed to protecting the family farm, into the rural values which help shape this province. Now I noted a singu lar lack of reaction from the newly elected members in the backbench, and, Mr .

Spea ker, I find that most encou rag ing because that means to me that the newly elected members in the backbench of the Govern ment indeed are the objective ladies and gentlemen that we expect them to be, that they have not had their minds made up by the members of the frontbench, on the Treas ury Bench, on the matter of reverti ng MACC back to state owner ship rather than long-term mortgages. But, Mr . Speaker, the trend is still very alarm ing. We see the Min ister of Natural Resources discontinuing Crown land sales.

We see illusions by the Min ister of Agricult ure that, indeed, he will go to that state farm program and I want to ask, on behalf of rural Manit o bans, the members of the backbench of the govern ment to stand up to your Treasury Bench and not allow that to happen. You people have the future of the family farm in your hands, and if you entrust it to some of your Treasury Bench members, you will have failed the family farm owners and future gener ations of fam ily farms in the Province of Manit oba.

So the weight is heavy indeed upon your shoulders, faced with the kind of bent and trends that have been demons trated in the term of office of some of your Treasury Bench Memb ers from 19 69 to 19 77. And, Mr . Speaker, I offer another challenge to the members in the backbench of the new governme nt. During the election campaign I had opportunity to be on the Peter Warren show with the Min ister of Finance. No w in that particular discus sion the Min ister of Finance and myself had, we were speaking as spokesmen for our respective parties; that was confirmed in advance of that phone-in pro gr am.

And during that program the now Minis ter of Finance distinctly said that his government, his party, had no intention, Mr . Speaker, of bringing in succes sion duties and gi ft taxes in the taxation reg ime of Manit oba. That, Mr . Speaker, was a commitment that the Memb er for Rossmere made on behalf of the ND Party during the election campaign. No w, Mr. Speaker, here is the second challenge to the members of the opposition backbench.

Their Treasury Bench will - and there has already been some wavering by the Min ister of Finance about suc cession duties and gi ft taxes - bring those in within the next four years in an effort to gl ean revenues from the fa mily farms of Man itoba, and I want you, ladies and gentlemen in the backbench who have numbers control over your Treasury Bench you can rule them down any time you want and never forget it - remember the line that "my government is committed to protecting the family farm." Do not let your Min ister of Finance bring in succession duties and gift taxes, because if you do there are four members that are particularly vulnerable in rural Manit oba.

One is the MLA for Gimli, the other is the MLA for The Pas, the MLA for Dauphin and the MLA for Springfield. I almost forgot about the young fellow over there - -

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 (I nterjection) - - and I think the Premier has probably forgotten about him too. But, Mr. Speaker, those four members have the honour and the distinction of being in this House as a result of defeati ng Conservative candidates.

I ask them, now that they are so euphor iously applauding my last stat ement, when your Min ister of Finance contemplates bringing in succession duties and gi ft yaxes, go out and talk to your farm population that I don't t hink helped to elect you, but ask them what they think about succession duties and gi ft taxes and how they will preserve the family farm when they are reinstated, and gentlemen and ladies, if you have the constitutional fortitude you will resist any effort by your Min ister of Finance to bring in succession duties and gi ft taxes. The Mem ber for St.

Rose, the Mem ber for Lac du Bonne t and the Mem ber for the Interlake have already been through that reg ime. They imposed them, they kept them and they were destroying the family farms because they didn't care; they have nothing to lose. But you four gentlemen do have a lot to lose if you allow your govern ment to bring in success ion duties and gift taxes. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Mem ber for Turtle Mountain had a very interesti ng ph ilosophical treat ment of socialism tonight and we got into some of the things which, and I just want to once again put on the record that Mr.

Pawley, the then Premier, said in the January, 1982 Winn ipeg Maga zine

article that "I consider myself a socialist." Now socialists don't believe in the right to own property, and, Mr. Speaker, the reaction you see is, oh golly, and great distain and everything , but, Mr. Speaker, the proof is in the pudding in Ottawa. The New Democratic Party in Ottawa, com bined with the other socialist party in Ottawa, the Liberals, defeated an amendment which would have entrenched in The Ch arter of Rig hts, the right to own property. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Would the members gi ve the honourable member who is speak ing the courtesy of the audience. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, the N.P.

Party in Ottawa combined to defeat the right to own property as an entrenched right in The Ca nadian Constitu tion. They were following their socialists beliefs. Now I can understand some hesitation in the backbench. If you don't consider yourself to be a socialist, then fine, admit it. There is nothing the matter with disguising New Democratic beliefs with socialism and saying, ''I'm a New Democrat but I'm not a Socialist." You'll probably have more Manit obans appreciate you by not saying you're a socialist than saying you are. But, Mr.

Speaker, we have got a government that1 is going to go to state ownership of farm land, and you know, ladies and gentlemen, we could agree with that if you could demonstrate one socialist country in the world where the state owns the land that is capable of feed ing themselves. Can Poland do it? Can USSR do it? So before your Minis ter of Agriculture takes MA CC into the State Farm Progr am, do a little research and oppose that move by your Min ister of Agricu lture, and oppose the move by your Min ister of Na tural Resour ces to discontinue Crown land sales.

State ownersh ip of land has not worked in the countries where it is the 235 land resource ownership policy and it won't work in Canada, and it won't work in Man itoba. So if you want to be true to your constituents who elected you do not fall for the socialist jargonism from your frontbench on state ownership of land, don't fall for that. Do not, gentlemen! and ladies, fall for that.

Now, we have another very very interesting docu ment here where the Leader of the Opposition at the time , the Leader of the Manit oba New Dem ocratic Party in his election campai gn, indicated that ManOil and Manit oba Hydro were going to provide revenue to ensure no Man itobans lose their house.

Well, one thing that he said in the back was, "That's a promise we can guarantee." What so far, the now Premier of the province has guaran teed to Man itobans is that ManOil will drain $20 million away from interest rate relief to provide protection to farms, homeowners and businesses in dang er of losing their homes and busi nesses because of high interest rates. It is a promise that we can keep on this side of the House, that ManO il will take those necessary dollars away from the businesses, the farms and the homeowners who need them for interest rate relief and plough them into a socialist ideology. And, Mr.

Speaker, that's fine and dandy if you have lots of money in the Province of Man itoba; that's a wonderful thing to do if you want to waste some money; but we have got very real needs, you have made very real commitments to the people of Man itoba and you will break them to put money into ManO il, $20 million that could save Manit obans from losing their homes, their farms and their businesses. So, Mr. Speaker, we know that's a promise we can keep on this side of the House that they, in fact, will deprive needy businesses, needy farmowners and needy homeowners of interest rate relief.

And whilst I'm on the subject of ManOil I would highly recom mend to anybody who would care to read a recent

article about a gentleman by the name of Joel Bell. Joel Bell is a very interesting character who has helped to formulate Federal Government policy in such weig hty matters as energy and the formation of the Crown Corporat ion, PetroCan, and here's the problem with Crown Corporat ions; Crown Corpora tions soon can get out of control, particularly if they're designed with a socialist bent and I'll just draw one example of that, that being a comparison between the Saskatchewan Govemment Insura nce Company and the Manit oba Government Insurance Company.

Ours under four years of Cons ervat ive administra tion provided better coverage, provided greater benef its, at a lower cost, employing fewer people; because, in Manit oba, we didn't use the Crown Corporation, the Insurance Corporat ion, as an eternal retirement place for party hacks, which they have done in Saskatche wan and they Mlle twice as many employees, they have higher rates, lower benefits and a bigger deficit. That's the danger of Crown Corpora tions and, Mr.

Speaker, we will watch the Man itoba Public Insura nce Corporation under the next four years that this govern ment is in place, and I will guarantee you that it will become an eternal retirement home for some of their party hacks because they're soon going to fill this building up, Mr. Speaker, and there's not going to be enough room in this building and in the Premier's office. So, they will move to Man itoba Public Insu rance Corporation and it's beyond the scrutiny of this

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 Legislature so we can effectively criticize them for doing so. Now they're going to set up another Crown Corpo rati on, namely ManOi l, to do the same thing, Mr. Speaker; and do you know what happened to ManOil under the terms and conditions of the Federal Liberal Government in Ottawa? Well, they made an excellent deal. They bought Petrofina shares which were trad ing at approximately $65 per share for $120; and you know what Mr. Joel Bell says about that?

He says, that's cheap by commercial standards, almost double the price, out of the scruti ny of Parliament, and that is what the Federal Conservative Party is figh ting against right now and not being supported by the socialist party in Ottawa. They are willing to let Petro Canada's omnibus energy bills go through to allow the Federal Government to run away with public ex penditures, and that will happen in Man itoba. And, Mr. Speaker, the important thing about the Petrofina share pur chase is that the former Chairman, Mr.

Morris Stro ng, who was retired as the Petro Canada Chairman at the time of that share purchase received a finder's fee. Now bear in mind, Mr. Speaker, the finder's fee was paid to him for paying almost double the market value for the shares that he arranged purchased for by PetroCa nada. And you know what his finder's fee was? 945,000 Ca nadian taxpayers' dollars. That's the kind of pork-barrel that ManOil will turn into, I guaran tee you, it'll be out of the scrutiny of this Cham ber and that govern ment will use it as a plum for the socialist hangerson that they've got collecting around this building.

Tha t is the danger and I want each and eve ryone of you to read this

article and then make your own mind up about ManOil and the kind of freewheel ing spending that it will get into. So, Mr. Speaker, the other thing that happens in this great little

article of election promises by the Leader of the Opposition at the time and now the First Min ister of the Province, there is one very true thing on about page four, it shows a picture of a man and I assume that this man must work for the Crown Corpora tion ManOil , because he has ManOil on his hardhat and you know what he is doing, Mr. Speaker. He's got his arms crossed and he's doing nothing, which I believe happens to most of the employees in ManOil. They will be a bloated bureaucracy doing nothing at the expense of the taxpaye rs of Manit oba. There is also, Mr.

Speaker, one other very truthful thing in this rather dubious group of election prom ises and quite unusual state ments which are not going to stand the scrutiny of the public over the next four years. On about page six, Mr. Speake r, I draw your attention to a picture, an artist's conception of a Mani toba Hydro dam I assume on the Nelson River.

There is one true thing with the picture of a Manit oba Hydro dam and I want each and everyone of you to see it, and that is that the water is running over the floodgates and not through the gene rators because there is over capacity in the hydro system, compliments of the Schreyer admin istration from 1969-77. They overbuilt the system by 1200 megawatts, and today we have the great news from the Minis ter of Energy and Mi nes that he blew another deal and Ontario is no longer going to be buying surplus power from Ma nitoba. So, Mr.

Speaker, that caricature of a Manitoba Hydro dam is absolutely truthful in that election campaign. It is one 236 of the few things that is true about it, the water is going over the floodgates and not through the gene rators. That brings me to the last point that I want to make to the Ho nourable First Minis ter. He promised us in this document of election promises immediate orderly development of our hydroelectric resources. That, two years ago, Mr. Speake r, meant that we should have started building Limestone that they cancelled in 1977. But now that they are govern ment, Mr.

Speake r, and it's so nice and easy when in Opposition, to critic ize and make foolhardy statements, it is now their role, Mr. Speake r, to live up to the election promises. It is now their job and the First Min ister's responsibility, Mr. Speaker, to carry out that promise of immediate orderly development of our hydroelectric resource. And, Mr. Speake r, the first promise that they will fail to keep and it will lie heavily on the First Min ister's shoulders, is his breaking of the promise to farmers in Ma nitoba of preservation of the family farm. He will break that one in the matter of a year.

He has already broken the promise on inters! rate relief Mi ckey Mo use program over two years for three categories, which will not help anybody who really needs help. He will break the next one on immediate, orderly devel opment of hydroelectric resources in Man itoba. And, Mr. Speaker, it's quite correct that he breaks that promise; it's better that he admit today to Manit obans that he told them a less than truthful statement in his election campai gning, that he maybe misled them a little bit. He should be man enoug h, Mr.

Speake r, the Mem ber for Selkirk, to get up and tell the people of Manitoba that he misled them in that regard. Because, Mr. Speaker, as I have said today his Min ister of Energy and Mi nes is not going to be able to renew a surplus power sale to Ontario, so that the capacity is now going to be still there and still there and excess capacit y costing Man itobans. Mr. Speaker, that is one promise that we won't mind the Mem ber for Selkirk not keeping. But, Mr. Speaker, I want to close with a small matter of point to the First Min ister of the Province of Manit oba.

When you go out to the people of Man itoba and you have built up their expectati ons that there is going to be renewed jobs, that Manit oba is going to prosper under an N.D . Party Government, a year-and-a-half from now, Mr. Speaker, I want the First Minis ter to be man enoug h to stand up and say, "I cannot deliver the election promises that I made." Be man enough to tell the people of Man itoba that you've failed, because, Mr.

Speaker, the First Min ister will have a greater chance of electoral success some three years from now if he tells the people that he failed, that he took bad advice from the Min ister of Energy and Mi nes, that he misled the people in the election. It would be better that he tell them that well in advance so that they might gi ve him a second chnace. But, Mr.

Speaker, I know the Memb er for Selkirk much better than that; he will not be honest with the people of Manitoba; he wasn't honest as Leader of the Opposi tion, he consistently misled the people of Man itoba with such things as the Glenella Cream ery in his litera ture and those kinds of state ments. And so, Mr. Speaker, we don't expect him to come clean with Manit obans a year from now when his programs are dashed upon the rocks of, good heavens - expecta tions - that he has raised amo ngst Manit obans. -

(Int erjection) I hope a little of it falls next sumer - (I nterject ion) - I need, Mr. Speaker, to call upon the assistance of the Mini ster of Na tural Resources. I have a water problem. How ever, Mr. Speake r. we have a great deal of con fidence on this side of the House that the Min ister of Na tural Resources will, indeed, develop a water con servation policy for all of Manit oba. Mr. Speaker, to finish off on the First Min ister who is now hiding his head, and I wonder is he intending to speak tonight.

He seemed to miss his opportunity last nigh t and I wondered if he intended to speak tonight because if he doesn't members on this side of the House will take up the space, if he so desires. Mr. Speaker, the people of Mani toba have expectations from this First Min ister. We are expecting him, on this side of the house, to carry out his promise of preserva tion of the family farm. We want him to continue through the Man itoba Agri cultural Credit Corporat ion to provide long-term loans to farm families in Ma nit oba.

We even will support him when he brings in a renewed, realistic interest rate relief program for homeowners, farmers, and small businesses. We can not support the program that he is putting before Man itobans now which is not what they expected. So, Mr. Speaker, it will weigh heavier and heavier upon the shoulders of the Member for Selkirk, the failures in the frontbench and the personal failure that he will go through over the next year-and-a-half in trying to live up to the expecta tions that he raised amongst the Man itoba electorate. He will fail, and he will fail miserably, Mr.

Speaker, and unfortunately we, on this side of the House, are going to help him fail by pointing out at every opportunity that we have availa ble, Mr. Speaker, the expecta tions he raised, and when he breaks his promises and doesn't deliver for Manit obans the jobs, the interest rate relief, the rent control, the new opportunities for Man itobans, we will remind him of every single failure, and we will tell Ma nitobans that the Premier is a failure and that he misled them during the election. It will weigh exceed ingly heavy on his shoulders. And Mr.

Speaker, from past experience we are wondering on this side of the House whether the Mem ber for Selkirk can stand that kind of pressure. We will find out, and we will also find out, Mr. Speaker, whether the Mi ster Ni ce Guy approach will work in his relat ions with the Federal Government, the new federalism he talks about. We will watch with a great deal of interest, Mr. Speaker, because one other Premier in Canada tried the Mi ster Ni ce Guy route with the present Prime Min ister. He is the Premier from New Brunswick.

He even supported that Constitution that every thinking member of parli ament opposed, including members from the Quebec Liberal caucus. He supported it with the expectat ion that co-operative federalism was going to work and bring renewed benefits to the Province of New Brunswick. That renewed federalism that the First Min ister so expects to bring a better financial arran gement and working arrangement with Ottawa will also fail, and, Mr.

Speaker, that will weigh heavily on the First Min ister's shoulders as well, because he has also raised expectat ions of Manit obans of a better co-operative arrangement with the Federal Govern ment. He will fail in that regard also, Mr. Speaker, and we will take, as Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition 9 March, 1982 237 ought to do, the responsibility of telling Man itobans of each and every failure of the Mem ber for Selkirk and the Premier of this province. I thank you, Mr. Speaker. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY, Premier (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, first I wish to congr atulate you as you com mence your important responsibility, and to join with the Leader of the Opposition in offering to you, best wishes. The decorum in this Chamb er symbolizes for many Man itobans the quality of the political climate in our province. I know that your faithful service to this Assembly since 1971 has prepared you well for the task that now confronts you, and I know that you will act evenhandedly and insure that the Rules of Proce dure are indeed applied in order to preserve that deco rum in this Cham ber.

In addition, your reputation for careful attention to the needs of your constituents in St. Vital will now even be a more sign ificant model for others in this Cham ber. Mr. Speaker, this is an opportunity as well for me to congratulate the Lieutenant-G overnor. She is proving herself to be distinguished and a popular representa tive of the monarchy. Her capable, her gracious and her enthusiastic execution of her duties is a source of pride to all Man itobans.

This is also an opportunity for me to compliment the Leader of the Opposition for the part that he played in an effective and orderly transfer of power after the recent election. As I and others on this side of the House know, election defeat is a bitter shock, even when that election defeat is expected. The Leader of the Opposition acted promptly and with dign ity to make sure that the public's mandate was respected. Finally, let me congratulate the 24 members who are new to this Leg islature. Among them is one that was here in earlier years and whose return is most wel come, the Ho nourable Memb er for St.

James. The Honourable Mem ber for Rupertsland is also particu larly welcome as the first Treaty Indian ever elected to this Legislature. Others have already mentioned in their speech the election of seven women in this Cham ber. Mr. Speaker, Manitoba has moved from among the last of the list to the first of the list insofar as terms of proportion of women in the Leg islature. Almost a third of the newly elected members in this C.hamber are women. Yes, I think the Hon ourable Mem ber for Gladstone was correct when she said the other day that 7 out of 57 members is not a particularly great record.

Let us both, both major Parties, ensure that the next time even more women are elected to this Cham ber, and who knows? Some day in the future a majority in this Cham ber, indeed a majority with in the Treasury Bench, may very well be women. I have listened carefully, Mr. Speaker, to the inaugu ral speeches of the newly elected members on this side. It has confirmed my delight with the tremendous depth of talent, enthusiasm and dedication that the newly elected members are obviously going to dem ostrate in their responsibilities and duties to the peo ple of the Province of Mani toba.

With each month more Manit obans will indeed, I am sure, be impressed with that kind of intelligent and thoug htful representa tion that they will be receiving. These men are doing the work in a hig hly uniformly, top-rank quality and they also reflect so well the cultural mosaic of Mani -

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 toba. In our province it's important for members of various ethnic groups, and people from many back grounds, to be able to look at the gove rnment side of the Legisl ature and say, "yes, there is one that, indeed, is there that shares my experience and my back ground." The vast majority of Manit obans can say that today, Mr. Speaker, and I am proud of that. The Mover and the Seconde r of the Addr ess are newly elected ML A's who exemplify the fine qualities of their col leagues.

They most certai nly deserve the compli ments received for beginnin g the debate on a high level, and I join with others in congratulating the Mem bers for The Pas and for Burrows. Mr. Speake r, I do not intend to spend much time discussi ng the comments that have been made by the members of the Opposition. I have listened to their comments, but I see not much point in responding to the comments because the voters of the Province of Manitoba demonstrate very well what they felt of their past performance. Mr.

Speake r, turning my attention to the Throne Speech I can't avoid remembering a comment that I made on April 15 th of last year during the Budget Debate. I said then, Mr. Speaker, that it would require a great deal of energy and effort, a fresh approach, and new ideas to form a new gove rnment.

I said, and perhaps I can even quote myself that, "We are going to have difficulty because there has been such a great deal of damage that has been done in the last three and-a-half years to the economy of this province." Manitobans knew that was true on Novem ber 17 th, they made their judgm ent and today we are in that difficult situati on of which I spoke on April 15 th of last year.

A new Ca binet took office to find that many individuals and organ izations wanted to talk to the newly appoi nted Min isters, that the spending esti mates had been waiting for many weeks for ministerial review and that the economic forecasts were very gloomy. The recession and the disruption caused by narrow-minded, restr ictive, right- wing administration in the Un ited States, indeed, was making matters much worse not only in Canada but particularly, as well, in Manitoba. It is as important for me to be frank and candid about the economic situation today in Manit oba as it was last April 15 th.

Manit oba is in the midst of fairly difficult times. We are facing the prospect of more hard ti mes, and our economy has been seriously wea kened by the program of acute, protracted restra ints for the past four years. High in terest rates are driving up prices, slowing down investment; in other words, making us pay more for less. It would have been easy for a new government with an election yet four years away to say that the cupboard was bare, the spending must be cut, and the promises will have to wait. Mr.

Speaker, if we took that path it would have been a massive betrayal of the people of the Province of Man itoba. Mr. Speake r, during the election campaign I spoke with hundreds of Man itobans about the province and its direction, and one that I recall particularly was an 88-year-old woman in Brandon who felt angry and helpless about an enormous rent increase. She expected the province to help her, protect her, from mercenary and unjustified rent increase. My col leagues and I met with farmers who had worked long 238 and hard, Mr. Speaker, in order to build up their lives tock herds.

They were losing money on every animal that was being shipped to the market and expected something more than sympathy from the province. We visited day care centres where devoted staff and parents were figh ting with great difficulty, indeed a losing battle, with very limited budgets in order to deal with a gr owing demand for their services. Mr. Speaker, they wanted to be recogn ized for their important ser vice to young children and to be supported to the fullest effort that was possible.

I remember a small businessman in Ben ito who was preparing to close his shop and leave Manitoba, the combination of high interest rates, a declining provincial economy, the neglect of small towns, had made it impossible for him to support his family here. Mr. Speaker, We spoke with Northerners who wanted nothing more than the oppor tunity to have productive jobs in their community. Reasonable enoug h they looked to a Provincial Government to break the welfare cycle rather than encourage the welfare cycle.

Mem bers of our Caucus spoke with dozens of Manitobans whose families had been broken up when one spouse had to leave, move, in order to get a job. I talked with young people who wondered if there would be any future for them in Man itoba. They were despondent about the prospect of following others away from this province, the prov ince they were born in, raised in, and they loved so very, very much. Mr. Speaker, we did not promise these Man itobans a miracle or some overnight cure; however, we did set forth our commitments to programs that respond to needs.

We expressed our basic confidence in Mani toba, and our desire to demonstrate that confidence through specific programs. It seemed to many people that in the last four years the self-confidence of our province had been shattered, shattered by a govern ment that itself lacked confidence in Man itoba. Mr. Speaker, it is now time to start moving forward aga in.

I agree with the Leader of the Opposition when he stated that it was part of the man date of this govern ment to provide good govern ment but every member on this side of the House realizes that fundamental to the principle of good govern ment is honesty with the public. I do not pretend to know the exact details for implementation of every NOP commitment. However, this Throne Speech said loudly and clearly that our gove rnment intends to keep faith with Manit obans. The sta ndard that we set is, indeed, a promise made is a promise kept. Some may very well say, Mr.

Speake r, that it is naive or, indeed, dangerous to believe ones own promise. I say to them that our election program was a carefully prepared series of measures to start the work of economic reconstruction in our province and to mai ntain the quality of life and public services that Man itobans expect. It was a moderate program and it formed the basis for the Throne Speech.

The Opposition has a duty to question and to criticize, but I serve notice today upon the Mem bers of the Opposi tion that their argument s will have little weight agai nst measures to which the Ne w Democratic Party com mitted itself during the past election campaig n. In these first few months, the Government has begun to implement its mandate by applying several principles which are apparent in the Throne Speech: 1. We will try to limit the damage done by recession

and high interest rates so Man itobans can stop losing ground; 2. We are ta king the first steps towards activating the public sector of the economy so our mixed econ omy can commence to work agai n; 3. We will use the province's limited fiscal capacity to maintain humane social services that Man itobans expect and are willing to pay for; 4. We will resu me the process of review and reform in all areas of public interest to rejoin the mainstream effort to achieve better government in Canada; 5. We intend to be a voice of moderation and of common sense in federal-provincial relations.

The terrible economic erosion which had an early start in Man itoba is still very, very much with us. One incident which made that very clear was Shell Cana da's decision to delay their new Brandon Refinery because of high interest rates. Ban kruptcies continue to exceed all previous records. The unprecedented loss of population is being confirmed by the 19 81 census. In this debate, I've heard arguments to the effect that we are not doing enough.

Yes, I've heard those arguments to the effect that interest rates should not be lowered, and arguments based on the assumption that the province should do nothing to deal with the economic crisis that is undermining so many businesses and individuals and farms within our entire economy. Our policy on this has been made very, very clear. There are a lim ited number of measures that a prov ince can undertake and its means are limited; but within those limitations, there is an obligation for the Government of Man itoba to do all that it can in order to help the people of the province survive these ti mes.

That is why we promised and we have delivered the Man itoba Interest Rate Relief Program. It will direct funds to those in the greatest danger of being swept away by high interest rates and help them keep their home, their farm, their small business until better times. In the absence of much needed federal action to help the beef industry, we'll be introducing the best support program that is possible within Man itoba's fiscal limitations.

This has been a priority and it will be announced, let me assure honourable members across the way, in much less time than the year of hesitation tha t preceded the previous govern ment's announce ment of a hog support progra m. A failure to act would run the risk of permanent damage to an important part of the rural economy. Protect ion of rural economy during the long cost price freeze is also govern ment's major concern when it comes to the Crow rate. Agri culture is the backbone of our economy, for Winnipeg as well as centres like Neepawa and Beausejour.

But all Mani tobans will suffer if net farm incomes decline even more and many small farmers are forced out of agri culture alto gether. I have great faith in the ability of Mani toba farmers to make up their own minds on the Crow, as long as they have all the facts before them. Therefore, the Min ister of Hi g hways and Transportation will soon be tabling research into the Crow-rate change, most of it which was done, indeed, for the previous adminis tration. Our goal will be to foster full, open discussion that get these facts to the farmers of the Province.

These and other rural initiatives will be undertaken 9 March, 1982 239 because this government supports the hard-working, independent family farmers who built this province. They are the foundation of our rural communit ies and our rural towns and they are among those most threa tened by high interest rates and high energy costs and by continuing recession. We will act to limit the dam age and to gi ve those who need it most, some room to breathe.

The same ration ale lies behind rent control; the freezing or the limited increase of provincial user fees; increased incomes for those at the very bottom of the economic ladder, and more support for Senior Citi zens. It is always those who are least able to support themselves that seem to be imposed with the greatest burden during difficult economic times. So, we have faced our obligation to help them and to do whatever is possible to avoid increasi ng the burden for Man ito bans.

A sign ificant program of provincial construction and hig hway construction reflects the view that this would be one of the worst possible times to deepen the recession for Man itoba by cutting back. And you can be sure, Mr. Speaker, that the reaso ns for these actions are much more than sympathy for the little guy. I do not think that Man itoba can afford to tie its hands behind its back and let its people and its economy suffer more reverses than those in wealt hier provinces. This province, however, is less able to take advan tage of the prosperity today than, indeed, was the case back in 19 77.

A decline in the number of healthy busi nesses, the number of skilled workers and in purchas ing power have hurt our ability to recover. The provin cial action to support and protect Man itobans may be less than we would like, but it is a whole lot better than nothing at all. The spirit which we recently saw in St. Pierre and in Riv erton, that spirit. that sound economic judgment have shaped the first principle wh ich this govern ment is applying to its work. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, we have changed the provincial policy in interest rates. No longer does this government echo the thoughts of Me ssrs.

Trudeau and MacEachan on fis cal and monetary policy. We will leave those argu ments to the Member for Turtle Mount ain. This govern ment stands for a policy of lower inter est rates and a strong and independent Ca nadian economy. The price of some possible ex change rate losses would be well worth paying for, in the relief that lower interest rates would provide to Man itobans. Surely it is past time for Canada to show by its actions, that the economic madness practised in Wash ington has few friends here in Ma nitoba.

The man and the woman on the street can see, and have said, that high interest rates just don't make sense. Let's hope that the Federal Government will soon agree. Me asures to limit the damage done by recession and high interest rates are entirely defensive, Mr. Speaker. Part of our mandate was the pledge to go forward and to activate the public sector. Sadly, after four years of failure, my honourable friends opposite still seem to think that an economic program consists entirely of pleas for private investment followed by desperate, last minute concessions in order to subsid ize private ventures.

We are committed, Mr. Speaker, to a different, to a more pragmatic path. The Man itoba Oil and Gas Corpor ation will be

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 created so that the people of Man itoba can partici pate directly in the development of petroleum products. There will be a sign ificant investment in the Manit oba Minerals Resources Limited and the Department of Crown Investments will permit greater co-ordination administrat ion of investment by Crown corporat ions. These are but the first steps. They reflect our under standing of why Mani toba has a mixed economy, and how that economy can be best strengthe ned.

Provin cial Governments of every stripe have increased the scope of the public sector in Canada, and in Man itoba, because very often activity of direct benefit to a prov ince such as ours must be led by the public sector. Size and location mean that Man itoba will never be a sign ificant centre of international capital. We are just not likely to rival New York or Zurich or even Toronto. The only people who can be relied upon to place Manit oba's interests first are Manit obans themselves, and that is why it is so crucial to maintain an active public sector.

Should the Texan investors in Calgary Oil Co mpany that is ex ploring in Man itoba decide to try their luck in Austr alia instead? Manoi I will stay in Man itoba and perhaps, ex pand. At the rate of return from coal-fired power plants in Arizona is two points more than a hydro plant in the Nelson River, Mani toba Hy dro will not shift its new invest ment to Arizona.

As members opposite know, if no private company is willing to do the leg work for modernization of the Man For fac ility, the Crown corporation itself can, and will, prepare plans for a feasible, joint venture, and it will work for suitable, private partners. Indeed, the level of economic activity which the public sector ensures, is an attract ion for private investment. Pri vate money is attracted by a bustling economy, and Man itoba has enjoyed a bustling economy only when its government believed in the province enough to invest in the province.

I can very forcibly assure all honourable members that this government does believe in Man itoba, and this govern ment intends to invest in Man itoba. Our goals will be to strengthen the structure of the economy by making investments that best meet the Mani toba situation. The Man itoba Public Insurance Corpora tion, Man itoba Hydro, The Mani toba Tele phone System, Ma ckenzie Seed , other Crown corpo rations provide much of the foundation of our econ omy. Public money spent on these corporations was invested and put to productive use.

The same is true in other provinces where Social Cred it, where Conserva tive, and the Parti Quebecois have invested in Crown Corpor ations. They want to ensure effective public participation in directing their economies. They saw no reason for the people of their province to rely solely on taxes, behind during the past four years for revenue from resources and from other key indus tries. It is a tragedy, Mr. Speaker, that Mani toba, with a well developed, mixed economy, fell behind during the past four years, the proportion of public invest ment in Canada.

The planning and the commitment to resume that investment, particularly in the resource sector, exists, Mr. Speaker, within this govern ment. The foundations for productive Crown ownership are being prepared. At the same time, Mr. Speake r, this govern ment realizes that public and private investment are complimentary and not contradictory. It is important for us to be aware of the views and 240 concerns of the business community. My ministers and I are meeting with large businesses and business organi zations on a regular basis, so that we can better understand each other and can build upon our com mon road.

The fixation of members opposite is such tha t they will look constantly at the public sector, but let them look also at decisions like ending the public monopoly on extension phones announced but yes terday by the Min ister of Co mmunity Services. Inter est rate relief, Main Street Manit oba, our programs designed specifically for small businesses, since those businesses provide a majority of the jobs in Man itoba. It is very regret table, Mr.

Speaker, that the propor tion of employees in small businesses have declined so sharply between the years 1976 and the year 1981 in Manit oba during the bulk of the time of the adminis trat ion of the previous govern ment. Many small busi nesses will benefit from the revitalized Critical Home Repair Progr am. It is clearly one of our policies that the Man itoba business community needs be consi dered in planning large or small projects. And when it comes to developing the economy of Ma nitoba, the only realistic alternative is one that we have welcomed - to regard the business community as a partner.

Our third principle is maintaining a decent and humane system of social services. It costs money, but a decline in these services is a cost also. If the quality of life and sta ndard of living in Man itoba fall far below those of our neigh bouring provinces, young people will leave in larger numbers. Man itoba will lose the potential it still possesses to quickly resume eco nomic growth at or near the national level in the future. I sense little desire in Mani toba for much ex pansion of social services.

In the long term, this gove rnment must look at prev entive health so that Manit obans' good health is main tained without very large cost increases. In the short term , we must pay to maintain a health system devoted mainly to curing. There is also room for inno vation in education and in community services. But this year the govern ment had some short-term deci sions to make. Man itobans have said time and time agai n that they support a high standard of public ser vices. They also know that in present circumstances we must borrow at high interest rates or increase taxes to maintain those standards.

This govern ment is pledged to preserving the cultural and the educational and the health and other systems that add up to a good quality of life. Some small but very modest improvements will be made and a new emphasis is already apparent, Mr. Speaker. Native people, new Ca nadians and others who have been left on the sideli nes are going to receive particular attention. Training that leads to a job will be emphasized because it is both a social service and vitally important to the economy. We want it to become evident through these services that in Man itoba everyone is viewed as an important member of society.

We want this to remain a province where people like to live, to raise a family and to work. Mani toba is a province where young people want to live and that must continue to be the case, indeed, main ta ining humane social services and underl ining this gove rnment's commitment to economic and social justice are steps towards a Man itoba in which young people can again be attracted.

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 Time alone will tell if we can reach the goal of ensur ing that the best quality of life, indeed, can be achieve in Mani toba bar none. This government is not in the business of promising blue skies ahead. The long term ability to maintain and improve public service depends upon the health of the economy and we rec ognize that quite well. Because we have no intention or desire to raise taxes to an uncompetitive level. and the outgoing govern ment has pushed the deficit level very, very close to intolerable levels and, indeed, Mr.

Speake r, let us ask ourselves what alternative is being heard from those who can already be heard talk ing about fat in govern ment. You know after three months we hear those that are talk ing about fat in gove rnment and reckless spending. If there is much fat in govern ment, Mr. Speaker, after the torture of acute protrac tive restraint under the previous administration, I hope that the formers Minis ters across the way will show us that fat.

If severe restra int is the road to a balanced Budget, why was the previous government unable to break even despite major increases that have taken place during the past four years in federal support? They couldn't break even. The Ho nourable Memb er for Ink ster described it so very well the other evening, the constantly rising share of revenues received by the Province of Man itoba from the Federal Government and yet, Mr. Speake r, the previous admin istration couldn't break even. Mr. Speaker, we never pretended that we could break even, but the former administra tion did pretend that they could break even.

That's why they were judged accordingly. Indeed, if the neo-conservative solutions lead to low deficits as they migh t have us believe, what are we to make, Mr. Speaker, of the enormous deficit predicted for the Un ited States of America under President Rea gan? What are we to make of that? What is the expla nation, Mr. Speaker, for Mrs. Thatcher's severe fiscal difficulties? Surely it is clear to say that any objective observer that the path that was taken in Mani toba from 1977 to 1981 just did not work. We on this side do not pretend to be magic ians.

We claim, unli ke some in the previous administration, no particular ability to produce a boom in Mani toba. Like others we too, will be watching during the next 18 months to see our programs start to effect the provin cial economy, to see how Manit obans do by compari son with other provinces. These are new times that demand a practical approa ch. Experience will be our guide and the direction will be forward rather than back towards policies that were advocated in days long gon e by. How ever, at this point, public service cutbacks are not on our agenda and, I hope - and I say hope, Mr.

Speaker - they never need be. The fourth principle which I mentioned, a resumed process of review and reform is evident through out the Throne Speech and I am sure it was evident to the new members across the way that are, indeed, in this Cham ber for the first time because they are here with a fresh perspective and with a frankness and I am sure they observed, indeed, that process of reform. The govern ment of any province is acting like a dinosaur, if it thi nks its laws and its programs do not need ongo ing review and reform.

Areas of provincial activity which are the leading edge of social progress have been neglected too much in recent years. 241 Multi culturalis m, the Mem ber for Ellice dealt with that very well the other day. Workplace health and safety, efforts to minimize the slaug hter that is taking place in the workplace because of inadequate atten tion to the need for improved workplace safety and health laws and regulat ions in the province.

Labour relations and reform therein, Native land claims and fam ily law in order to ensure the removal of inequities that, indeed, should have been removed years ago in respect to our Family Law. Freedom of information and, Mr. Speaker, how long has it been now, three, four years? The Mem ber for Transcona can recall, I am sure, so well when a bill was I believe, Mr.

Speaker, passed una nimously in this Cham ber in respect to freedom of information, the Ho nourable Memb er for Sturgeon Creek's resolu tion. -( Interjection) - Well, then there was one dis senter; then by 56 members in this Cham ber, freedom of information. We are going to proceed with that needed reform, Mr. Speaker. Pension reforms, so long overdue. We will under take the necessary reforms. Ch ild care standards, and much has been said during the Throne Speech Debate in that regard, and the situation of beginning farmers in Man itoba.

These areas and more will once again be evolving and changing with attitudes and with conditions. In program after program much of the government's efforts will be devoted to making up for lost time . Ma ny of the reforms we will undertake, yes, Mr. Speaker, I admit will cost very little and will be very modest by way of expenditure but they do require political willpower and imagi nation. Mr.

Speaker, I can look around me and at my back bench and I am satisfied that there I see the imagi na tion and the willpower and the commitment to ensure that these necessary reforms are carried through in the next four years. Fifth, Mr. Speaker, by practising moderation in Federal-Provincial affairs, Mani toba can truly be the Keystone Province once again. We have been called the Daug hter of Confederation, the middle Province, the centre Province. These names happen to reflect the traditional and widely supported approach of Man itoba in the Federal-Prov incial forum.

Like most Mani tobans, our govern ment has little taste for federal politicians who score some easy points by bashing provincial politicians; equally, provincial rig hts advo cates who charge out to bash Ottawa. The Canadian people know very well, Mr. Speake r, tha t they are represented by two levels of senior gove rnment and that the federal voters are identical to the same voters that vote in provincial elect ions.

They have much more interest in sensible, in desirable and in responsible government programs than in the end less game of power politics that we have seen so much of in the past while in eleven capitals. We see co-operative federalism as the best choice for Canada. We intend to urge that choice upon other governments instead of lowering Man itoba to the level of those who are spoiling for a light. That certai nly does not mean that we endorse every federal policy. In fact, Mr.

Speake r, if you note on two basic issues this gove rnment has stood more solidly in the interests of Manit obans than indeed the previous administration that was always battling with Ottawa and I refer to the weak position by the previous administration with

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 respect to its position, in respect to interest rates, indeed its support of Trudeau, federal, monetary pol icy. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, I refer to the betrayal that took place by the previous administration insofar as the Crow rate was concerned, not standing up for thrightly for the farmers of this province in respect to the Federal Government. So, Mr. Speaker, let it not be said that this is a government that is not prepared to do battle; that we are prepared to do battle when we are confronted with issues that of concern to the ordi nary man and woman of Man itoba. Mr.

Speaker, what we do recognize is the increasing reliance of Manit oba Government upon Ottawa for its revenues, and again that was so well illustrated by the Memb er for ln kster the other evening, not to mention the gr owing federal share of health and education costs. Manit obans generally realize that Ottawa was picking up much more of the tab during the period of restraint and economic decline and that was pointed out on many occasions during the past several years in this Chamber. Ma nitobans also realize, Mr.

Speake r, the difficulties that they are confronted with when Ottawa withdraws and cuts back in respect to fiscal transfer of payments to the provinces. Mr. Speaker, if I could make a note aside here, it is rather ironic and I pointed it out to the Prime Min ister, that as we are in the process - and we support indeed the provision in the Cha rter of Rig hts in this respect provision that Ch arter of Rig hts that public services ought to be provided at a comparable level from one area of Canada to the next at comparable tax rates, we supported the enshrining of that provision in the Constitution.

But it is rather ironic, Mr. Speaker, that the very Prime Mi nister that defostered that provision is now undertaking efforts to undercut the very basis of that important provision in the Constitution to the effect, Mr. Speaker, and I regret this very much, that as mat ters stand now we are confronted with cutbacks that per capita in Man itoba exceed that of any other per capita cutback of any other province in Canada . Mr.

Speaker, let me make it very very clear at this stage, we do not intend to go to war with Ottawa and if it turns out that Ottawa is going to war with the provin ces, we will make our case very very clear and very very forcibly for co-operative federalism and we'll take that case to the people of Manit oba and to other Can adians , because I can assure all honourable members that the Canadian people are sick to death of people who would rather scrap over jurisdiction than get on with the job that they were elected to do. We are committed to co-operative federalism because any other course just does not work.

The dollars and the cents in federal transfers are impor tant; but even more important is unity and cohesion that Canada presently so desperately needs and that must indeed be a concern to each and every member of this Chamber. Mr. Speaker, I think it is appropriate for a new govern ment to be mindful of the heritage of this pro vince, and reflecting upon that heritage is also appropriate in the International Year of the Elderly.

We are reminded of the settlement of the prairies by its centennial celebrati ons in many rural towns and cit ies, municipalities this year; the City of Brandon, the 242 Town of Selkirk and other centres, including Virden, Gladstone, Killarney, Morden. Mr. Speaker, I note that not all these centres are hotbeds of the New Demo cratic Party, as well. The important Indian and Metis tradition is honoured by the vast majority of Man itobans today. Indeed, it is a source of strength for Native people and for the entire province.

The Manit oba spirit of co-operation in the face of difficulty is indeed a great attri bute of our people. The dedication, the hard work of the early pioneers has been matched by those who chose Canada and Man itoba during the last few decades. Et hnic and cultural diversity is accepted as a valuable part of friendly Man itoba. My political party has a proud her itage in this province. It provided leaders of national stature, such as J.S. Woodsworth. And with the crea tion of the Independent Labour Party established in Man itoba political tradition and philosophy which today, Mr.

Spea ker, enjoys wide-spread public sup port. And, Mr. Speaker, other political philosophies are as well an important part of the heritage of this province. That heritage is rich and unique. It can be and, Mr. Spea ker, is a genuine source of inspiration for all Man itobans. The many distingu ished and uni que accomplishments of past generations are a source of hope and trust in future accomplishments. Mr. Speake r, we are a new govern ment which has commenced to take a very difficult and exc iting road.

We're gui ded by the principles which are evident in the Throne Speech, and by our desire to keep faith with Man itobans. We intend to provide good govern ment and to so encourage excellence and initiative within the Civil Service so that, indeed, Mr. Speaker, this will come to be recogn ized through out Canada as indeed the best government within Canada . Certainly, Manit obans deserve nothing less. This is a province that enjoys the potential of a great future. The econ omy is well balanced - its agricul ture, its manufactur ing base, its mining. Indeed, Mr.

Speaker, it is the equa l if not superior, of other provinces. And the men and women of Man itoba are indeed great people. One sees in this Leg islature on both sides, one whose an cestors came here many centuries ago, and those whose forbears pioneered and, indeed, those that are new Canadia ns. There's a dedication, there's a rich diversity, a diversity of cultures and experiences that can result in greater and greater creativity and responsi ble representation. We are in an age of lowered expectati on, true enough.

All the same, my colleague s and I have ai med high and I do not apolog ize that we have aimed high, Mr. Speaker, because we share the desire of Manit obans for this province to slowly start moving forward again, to invite men and women from all parts of this province to work with us, to share with us the commitments and the dedication to again work ahead and forward with us in the years that lie ahead. Si nce, Mr.

Speaker, it is only by working together and shari ng together and co-operati ng together in the Man itoba spirit, the spirit that this province is so well recognized for, that this province indeed can achieve the many great things in the years that lie ahead of us. And I'm so pleased, Mr. Speaker, that on this side we have members that indeed, are not cynics, members indeed, that are not pessimists, members that indeed,

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 are not negative, but members that have hope, expec tati on, trust and confidence in the future of this pro vince. Mr. Speaker , it is that drive, it is that determina tion, it is that commitment to the development of economic and social strategy, it is that desire for openness in government, it is that commitment to the improved partici pation of men and women through out the length and breadth of this province, whether it be from the north, whether it be from the south, the west or the east, whether it be from whatever back gr ound, Mr.

Speaker, that will contribute to this being a stronger and stronger province in the years that lie ahead. Mr . Speaker, this has been for me a very, very impor tant occasion in this, the Throne Speech to mark the beginning of a new era in Man itoba politics, and to share with members across the way and members on this side, those hopes and those expectat ions and those plans that we have for a better Mani toba. It is with that, Mr.

Speaker, and in meeting those chal lenges that lie ahead, and I know that there will be difficult times and I know, indeed, that there will be ti mes when we will err; I know there will be times when we wi II appear to have been less than wise and I expect that, Mr . Speaker, but we will admit on those occa sions, Mr. Speaker, beacause we will not, indeed, be oblivious to the concerns and the needs of our fellow citizens in this province. Mr . Speaker, I commend this Throne Speech to all Mem bers of this Chamb er and call upon all Mem bers of this Chamb er to support this Throne Speech. I may be naive, Mr.

Speaker, but I believe that there are, indeed, some members across the way that have a burn in their hearts to join with us in supporting this Throne Speech, because, I know, Mr . Speaker, that they look forward with us and share with us and share with us the desire of four years of achievement in Mani toba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. In accor dance with our Rule 35(4), I am interrupting the debate to put the question on the Main Motion.

The question before the House, moved by the Ho n ourable Memb er for The Pas, is for an Address to Her Honour the Lieutena nt-Governor in answer to Her Speech at the Opening of the Sess ion. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MESSAGE MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Finance. HON. VICTOR SCHROEDER, Minister of Finance (Rossmere): Thank you, Mr . Speaker, I have two messages from the Honour able the Admin istrator of the Government of the Province of Mani toba. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able the Adminis trator of the Government of the Province of Man itoba, trans mits to the Legi slative Assembly of Man itoba, Esti mates of sums req uired for the services of the Prov ince for the fiscal year ending the 31 st of Ma rch 19 83, and recommends these Estima tes to the Legis lative Assembly. The Honourable the Administrator of the Govern ment of the Province of Man itoba, transm its to the Legisla tive Asse mbly of Mani toba, Estimates of sums required for the service of the Province for Capital 243 Exp enditures, and recommends these Esti mates to the Legislative Ass embly.

The Honourable Min ister of Finance. MR.SCHROEDER: I move, seconded by the Honour able Attorney-General that the said messages together with the Estimates accompanying the same be referred to the Committee of Supply. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, while copies of the Esti mate are being distributed, I would ask leave of the House to make a brief statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister. MR.

SCHROEDER: At the opening of this Session, the Speech from the Throne emphasized that our new government's Esti mates will reflect a clear commit ment to an active and responsible role by the public sector, not only in alleviating current hardships and injustices, but also in contributing as much as possi ble to improving the qual ity of life and equali ty of opportunity for all Man itobans. Mr . Speaker , we on this side of the Ho use see govern ment as a positive instrument for prog ress and reform, and we firmly believe that the majority of Man itobans share that view.

Through their gove rnment, the people of Ma nitoba have developed, and in some cases, have pioneered in establishing a range of qual ity public services in which our province can take gr eat pride. Unf ortunately, in recent years the qual ity of some of those essential services has deteriorated or has been threatened, while needed improvements have been deferred or simply rejected outright. Too often, arbitrary and excessive restraint policies have created costs far in excess of any short-term savings, while erratic year-to-year funding levels played havoc with orderly program planning and delivering.

Our new govern ments' expenditure plan for the fiscal year beginning April 1, 19 82 represents a start toward reversing that trend, toward rebuilding those services which have been damaged, and toward restori ng a governmental structure which is sensitive and respon sive to the needs of the citizens of Man itoba. It signals a reaffirmation of the important role we believe the public sector can and must play in stimulating eco nomic activity and encourag ing new development, increased employment and better incomes through out Mani toba.

At the same time, we must emphasize that these Esti mates are in many respects transitional in nature, reflecting much of the basic organ izational structure we inherited from our prede cessors as well as the priorities and programs which the former government regarded as appropriate. In a number of cases we ag ree with those priorities and support the programs which are consistent with them.

In others, we have made improvements and refinement where possible, recog nizing that we may well wish to propose much more far-reac hing ch anges in future years, after we have had adeq uate time for a thorough review of all ex isting programs. This year there simply wasn't time for an in-depth analysis of every department's activi ties; in fact, a major portion of the Estimtes review had

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 to be compressed just into a little over a month, less than a quar ter of the time usually allocated to the process. But these Estima tes can be described as transitional for another obvious reason as well. They were completed at a time of major budgetary uncer tainty arising out of the fiscal arrangements negotia tions. Faced with the th reat of a severe cutback in transfer payments by the Federal Government, we simply could not consider major undertakings involv ing new long-term obligations.

It is recogn ized that Man itoba may be the province which is hardest hit by the federal cutbacks even with the addition of special tem porary adjustme nts in the first few years of the new arrangeme nts. We believe the federal cutbacks are totally un justified, as the members opposite have pointed out and as we have, they may serve to reduce federal expenditure gr owth and, thus the federal deficit, but in so doing they simply add to the pressures on provincial and local governments, without any net benefit to the taxpayers. While the cutbacks are not acceptable, they were by no means a surprise.

There is little doubt that the actions of some Provincial Governments, including the former governme nt in this province, played a part and were probably a sign ificant factor in setting the stage for the cuts we face. In calling incessantly for a large-scale reduction in the federal deficit and reduced federal intrusions, so-called, in various provincial program fields the members opposite helped provide a rationale for the cutback legislation which appears soon to be introduced in parliame nt. Mr .

Speaker, we have made it clear that we believe the Federal Govern ment, through its spending power, must play a key role in ensuring that all provinces have the financial capacity to provide their citizens with a high standard of public services. In fact, the equal iza tion provision in the constitutional resolution gi ves it that responsibility, and we are quite prepared to see to it that Ottawa gets full and proper credit for the expenditures it undertakes for tha t purpose.

For our part, we have emphasized our commitment to ass ign adeq uate provincial resources to ensure the mainte nance and improvement of key programs which are jointly funded, such as those in the fields of health, social services and post-secondary education. Of course, federal transfer payments were not the only area of uncertainty affecting the preparation of the Es tima tes.

Along with all other gove rnments across the country, we also continue to face uncer tainties with respect to both revenue growth and expenditure obligations, as a result of the national economic situa tion; continuing high interest rates and less than favourable prospects for the Canadian economy in the short term. And even where some of that uncerta inty has been removed, in the case of energy prices for example, we must meet major increases in costs, particularly in such departments as Hi g hways and Trans portat ion and Govern ment Services. Mr.

Speaker, the main Estimates for the 19 82-83 fiscal year total $2, 783,713,900.00. For those who are most concerned about percentages, I can advise that this total represents an increase of about 14 .4 percent over the most recent forecast of expenditu res in the 19 81 -82 fiscal year. That is the revised forecast included in the third quarter financial state ment issued 244 a few weeks ago. The percentage on an Estimates-to Esti mates or print-over-pri nt basis is 16 .9 percent.

To place these percentages in context, I should note that total exp enditures in the current fiscal year, ending Ma rch 31 are now forecast to increase by about 18 .2 percent over the total in 19 80-81 . Of course, tha t was an election year. This is up slig htly from the 17 .4- percent increase forecast by the members opposite in the second qu arter financial state ment they issued just as they left office. The actual increase was 11. 2 percent in the previous year, that is, between '79-80 and 19 80-81; while the year before that, between '78 and '79 and '79-80, the percentage was 13 .9.

As usual, members will be provided with deta iled explanations of the individual departments' Esti mates in Commi t tee of Sup ply. I will simply touch on the highligh ts now. Improved Health Care Services will account for nearly half or about 18 8.1 million out of the 402.7 million increase between the total voted author ity for '81 -82 and the proposed Estimate for '82-83. This represents a gr owth rate for Health of about 26 per cent on a print-over-print basis, although the percen tage is smal ler, about 19 percent when 19 81 '-82 Spe cial Warrants are added to that base.

It should be noted, of course, that a significant portion of the increase relates to cost factors which are largely beyond provincial control. At over $900 million, the expen ditures of the Department of Health, including the Mani toba Health Services Commission, now account for al most one-third of total provincial expenditu res. For Education, the increase for '82-83 is approxi mately $65 million or 13 percent, bringing the total to almost 570 million.

This total includes provision for all of the improvements in public-school financing announced by the Mini ster of Education last week and today, with the exception of the $2 million special gr ant to be provided to Winnipeg School Division No. 1. In addition, ther e is an approximate 15 .7-percent increase in funding for the university's Grants Com mission, which will include an amount to make possi ble the freeze in tuition fees announced in the Speech from the Throne.

A $26-million or 12 -percent increase in expendi tures by the Department of Com munity Services and Co rrections will provide for the improved levels of Social Assistance which took effect at the beginning of the calendar year, along with a number of improve ments in So cial Services. The departmental expendi ture total will be about $250 million.

The re-esta blishment of the Depar tment of Ur ban Affairs will require an increase in expenditure author ity of about $13 million or 31 percent, partly to finance a 16 .5-percent increase in gr ants to the City of Win nipeg which, as has already been announced, will help the Cit y freeze transit fares for the coming year. The Ur ban Affairs Estimates also include 8.3 million out of a 10 .3-million total authorization to cover pro jected exp enditures in the coming year under the Core Area Agr eement with the Government of Can ada and the City of Winnipeg.

For the Department of Economic Development and Tourism, the requested increase is about 8 percent or approxi mately $2 million, bringing the departmental total to just over $24 million. Additional funding for

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 that department and for others which deliver various economic development programs under agreements with the former Federal Depar tment of Regional Eco nomic Expansion is also provided under the Canada Man itoba Enabling Vote. This year, the Enab ling Vote at 11. 4 million is somewha t lower than it was in '81 -82, primarily reflecting the uncertainties which continued to surround the negotiation of a new Nor thern Devel opment Agr eement. Overall funding for Northern Affairs Environment and Workplace Safety and He alth is set at about 35.5 million.

This total includes a reduction in the request for funding for programming under the Northern Development Agr eement. The total req uest for the Nor thern Agr eement for '82-83 in the Nor thern Affairs Vote and the Enabling Vote is 22.3 million, compared to a total of 28.3 million in '81 -82 Es timates. For Agr iculture, the overall increase will also be about 8 percent or $3 million, partly reflecting the reduction of over $2 million in the requir ement for the Income Insurance Fund. Without that adjustment, the basic gr owth rate for the rest of the Department of Agr iculture is about 14 percent.

The total expen di tures of the department are forecast to be in excess of 42 million. In addition, I should note that the Government will be req uesting Capital Authority, by way of Capital Estima tes. I will also be tabling tonight for $26 million for the Manit oba Agricultur al Credit Corporation. As Mini ster as Labour and Man power, I note that expenditures for that department are forecast to increase by around $2 million, or 12 percent, to about $17 million.

The expenditu res of the Depar tment of Hig hways and Transportation are forecast to increase by about 15 percent, or $25 million, to just under $200 million. The new Mi nistry of Cr own Investments is being provided with an initial authority of just over half a million dollars. Finally, I would draw members attention to a new appropriation of $10 million for Emergenc y Interest Rate Relief.

That amount represents our current esti mate of the portion of the costs expected to be incurred in 19 82-83 for the grant portions of the Spe cial Interest Rate Assistance Programs for home owners, farmers and small business people which have already been annou nced. This total is by no means a ceiling and can be supplemented with addi tional authority later in the year, if need be. The Capital Estima tes I will table later provide for a further $9 million for Emergenc y Interest Rate Relie f. Following are some other gener al points which I believe will be of interest to members.

The statutory provision for public debt charges in 1982-83 is esti mated at around $12 7 million, up about $32 million, or 34 percent from the previous year. At the same time, the cost of the Hydr o Rate Stabilization Progr am is substantially lower than last year; some $6.8 million compared to an estimate of $35.8 million in 19 81 -82. Those amounts are statutory as well. Last year provision was made in individual depart mental estimates for an already ag reed to ge neral salary increase for provincial em ployees.

This year, pending the outcome of negotiations with the MGE A, we have returned to the usual practise of providing an contingenc y allowance, in this case of $10 million, in a 245 separate appropriation for gener al salary increases. The number of staff positions or person years pro vided for in the Esti mates is just under $1 7,600, an increase of about 3 percent or 450 from the currently authorized total establishment. In total, approximately $251 million, or 9 percent of the expenditure total, is for the Acqu isition and Construction of Physical Assets; that is, in simple terms, for Capital Expe nditures.

This total is based on the same definition used under the previous administration. When they were in office the members opposite occasionally emphasized, and we agreed , that ex pen ditures which produced tangible assets of lasting value should be looked upon somewhat differently from ordinary operating or current exp enditures, especially in connection with any evaluation of how they are financed. While continuing to use the com bined current and capital presentation for the esti mates, we believe there should be a clearer distinction between the two categories of expenditures.

Before concluding my remarks on the Est imates, I wish to commend my colleag ues on the Treasury Board , and particularly, the Attorney-General who has served most ably and conscientiously as our Chairman, and the many hard hours of work in prepa ration of these Es timates. Thank you very much. On behalf of all of the members of Treasury Board I want to thank our other Cabine t colleag ues as well for their assistance and unfai ling co-operation in this shortened Esti mates Review period.

In addition I would like to express the appreciation of the entire Cabi net to the great many staff involved in the Esti mates process. Their advice and support have been extre mely helpful and are reflected through out the Esti mates now before the Ho use. Mr . Speaker, I look forward to further discussion of the Es tima tes in Committee of Supply. I would also ask leave, Mr . Speaker, to make a brief statement introducing the Capital Estimates this even ing; I have copies as well. Mr .

Speaker, these Esti mates only make provision for urgent Capital Author ity requir ements beginning April 1s t of the new fiscal year. The normal omnibus Capital Esti mates will be tabled later in the Session. These req uirements are needed im mediately to provide for the loan portion of the Emergenc y Interest Rate Relie f Program, whil e the balance is requir ed to supplement inadequa te provisions aut horized in the 19 81- 82 Loan Act.

Loan guar antee authority of $5 million is being requested at this time for the Hog Income Insurance Program to provide support for the loan portion of the program anno unced by the previous ad ministr ation. As members opposite are already aware, this Auth ority should have been aut horized during the past fiscal year. In addition, $26 million is required by the Mani toba Agricultur e Credit Corporation in order for them to continue to provide loans to the farm community. Without this immediate authorization of Capital Authority the Man itoba Agriculture Corporation would be unable to continue to provide loans.

These Esti mates also provide $2.8 million required to maintain the province's interest in the Trout Lake Min e which is being developed near Flin Flon. Before closing I would like to restate that this is the first of two sets of Capital Esti mates to be presented to the Leg islature. Due to the urgent nature of these

Tuesday, 9 March, 1982 requirements it is important that they be approved prior to April 1 st. 19 82. Mr. Speaker . I move. seconded by the Honour able Attorney-General, that this Hous e will. at its next sit ting. resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Su pply to be Granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Turtle Mo untai n. MR. RANSON: Mr. Speaker. I move. seconded by the Member for Lakeside that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. MR.

SCHROEDER: I move. seconded by the Honour able Attorney-General that this Hous e will, at its next sitting. resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Ways and Means of raising of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Mr . Speaker . I move. seconded by the Honourable Memb er for Arthur that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Hous e Leader wish to indicate to the Hous e what the Hous e's work will be for the remainder of the week? MR. PENNER: Yes.

Mr . Speaker. Tomorrow I will be making an announcement in terms of the Division into the Comm ittee of Supply to be in the House and Committee outside of the Ho use. that will be the Esti mates being discussed in the respective split commit tees; and I will be introducing for Second Read ing two or three of the Bills that are on the Order Paper for tomorrow. I don't expect that they will take very long in introduction. MR. RANSOM: Mr . Speaker, I wonder if the Govern ment Ho use Leader migh t be able to indicate now which departments will be first up for review. MR.

PENN ER: I am doing it a little bit by memory. I have previously conferred with the Honourable House Leader for the Opposition. In the Com mittee outside of the Ho use we will be starting with Natu ral Res our ces and the Commit tee in the Ho use will be starting with the Com munity Services and Corrections. At least that gi ves us an id ea. We will be distributing to the Memb ers of the Ho use and announcing in the Ho use tomorrow the successive Estimates to be received and considered. Mr. Speaker.

I move that we now adjourn. seconded by the Honourable Mi nister of Labour. 246 MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use adjourned and sta nds adjou rned until 2:0 0 p.m. tomorrow (Wednesday)

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-9b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 9b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5db86f19f1632ec3550ca26f02c92ca0557657a2

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