VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY GNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, MARCH 3, 1980 ::.w. 2

:·larch 3, 1980 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in che Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 24 ow - 1 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, in last year's budget, this government announced its intention to abolish th~ Special Action Group. I would now like to inform this hen. House that the Action Group has been disbanded and all its affairs wound up. Mr. Robert Cole, who had headed up the group, will have his employment with government terminated on March 15th. of 1980. Government has reached an agreement with Mr.

Cole on the remaining period of time set out in his contract. The settlement is equivalent to fifteen months' sa~ary, an amourrt of $65,000. This contrasts with approximately $500,000 the Province would have had to pay if the contract had run its course. This amount is in line with settlements normally made with senior employees in the private sector. Mr. Cole's separation from govern­ ment is as a direct result of the abolition of the Action Group.

He performed his duties with the Action Group well and conscientiously, and his separation from government is not be construed as a reflection on his abilities or his performance. I hereby tazle this. '!o!R. SPEAKER: The hen. member for the Straits of Belle Isle. :•!R. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, let me first of all say that we on this side welcome the Premier's statement that nine months after the announcement of the Action Group was to be 70

:-larch 3, 1980 Tape :-:o. 24 ow - 2 HR. :; • ?.03ERTS: abolished, the governMent have taken the action to abolish it. We have always felt ,anc I think it has been made abundantly clear by people on this side of the ~ouse , that the Action Group really served no purpose at all and i~ is a significant step forward in the administration of ~h~ affairs of the government of this ?rovi~ce that it no longer is with us. Eavinq said that,! would like to say that that is no reflection on Mr. Co le. I .:ind ~o trouble at all in associating us on this side of the House wi:h :be ?remier's words about Hr. Cole.

I suspect that. these were the result of an agreement between government lawyers on one hand and whoever was acting for Mr . Cole on the other hand ,but we haven~ complaint. ! thin~ Mr. Cole did the very best he could with an i~possible job. I would like to go on to say that ! think the government' have made a very bad settlement. They may or may ~ot have made ic upon legal advice,but if they did chey had bad legal advice .because chat contracc, Sir 1 was never valid for more tha n one year. .::;e!:'e is a scat~te o: this House which says , ~= - S?eaker- ~ ~d oe:ore my lear~ed friend for St. John's East (~r .

M a~~ ~alll ae ~ s up 1 ! a~ ~oc debating it all! simpl y making a few comlllents 71

~larch 3, 1980 Tape No. 25 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS : there is a statute of this House, Sir,

an act of this ?rovince,which says that no contract for more than twe~ve months is valid unless it is ratified by the Legislature. That contract was never ratified by the Legislature and therefore the government, in my view, or in our view, have acted injudiciously, to use that word, injudiciously in agreeing to give Mr. Cole fifteen months' salary. I think his legal rights, Sir, were that he was entitled to nothing,and I think his moral case was that he was entitled to nothing because, Sir, that contract could lawfully never have been signed and ought never to have been signed.

It never came before this House of Assembly and now we have got the case where the government have wasted $65,000. Having said that, Sir, t;bere will be an opportunity to debate the matter, we shall debate it, but I do want to say that I think the government have acted very unwisely if not unlawfully. MR. SPEAKER (Si.nuns) : The hen. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENBEIMER: Mr. Speaker, with leave of the House I would like to propose motions of congratulations and best wishes with respect to certain gentlemen, one who has retired from, and another two who have received appointments to the judiciary.

As hen. members know, since we last met Chief Justice R.S. Furlong, after having served many years as Chief Justice of Newfoundland has retired,and I am sure hen. members would all wish the House to express to him through you, Mr. Speaker, our appreciation for his many years of service and best wishes for a happy and lengthy retirement.

Also, since the House last met, o.f course , Chief Justice Mifflin has been appointed Chief Justice of Newfoundland from his previous position as Chief Justice of the Trial Division,and also chief Justice Hickman has been appointed in charge of the Trial Division of the Supreme court of Newfoundland and I feel reasonably 72

:.larch 3, 1980 Tape No. 25 NM- 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: confident that the House would wish,also through you, Mr. Speaker, to communicate to these hon. gentlemen the congratulations and best wishes of the House of Assembly. SOME S:ON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Sillllnsl : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROB:ERI'S: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to associate ' us on this side of the House with the remarks made by the learned Minister of Justice. The service of the hon.

Robert Furlong as Chief Justice of this Province, and latterly as Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal in addition to being Chief Justice of the Province, speaks for itself, Sir, and it needs no embellishment trom me. I know that all of us in the Rouse, and I am sure I reflect the llar of this Province, Sir, wish the learned former Chief Justice a long and a happy retirement. Chief Justice Hickman's elevation, Sir, was a welcomed one from many aspects, but as I think mY friend 73

!'iarco 3,1980 Tap e ~o . 26 AR-1 ~!;l.. ~03t:.!<.?S: :ro m La?oile (:u. ~eary) sa id, the Chief Justi ce of the Trial Division showed a superb sense of t:imi:1.g . Sis distingui shed career in one phase of public life came to an,end at ju st the right time.

The window was open and he was translated into anoth er place where I kn ow be will serve with •qreat di stinction and will add con sid erabl e ustre both co t:he 3ar of this Provi:1.ce and to th e Bench of this Province and •,;il~ continu e a care er that: has ::e en marked with d~ st inct:ion in a :lumber of ways. r am sure we all wish him well in his ne w career. ! think, Sir, he holds out a shining example to all of us who still - 01..11; . !ll'£ ARY: before him. :1R. ROBERTS ~orni:1.~, i:1. fac:, but: I - ~R . NEARY: !-!R .

R03ERTS I hope none of us ever appe ar well ,! ap peared before h~m this Acti:lg as solicitor . I was acting as a solic~t:or. 1: ~Y frie nd from LaPoile (Mr. Nea ry1 appears it may be in a different: capac ity 1 unless he hdS re ce ntly been admitted t:o the Bar. But: ! do want ~o say, Sir, and I k~ow I speak for all the members of t:~e 3ouse who are at least according to th e rules learned that the former Minister of Justice , now the Chie!

Justice of t:he Trial oiwision 1 is a shi~ing example, Si~, for all of us who labour at the Bar ~nd I hope he goes to prepaxe a place for at: le ast some of us, S.l.r , We wish ~im well in that . MR. JAMIESON: They will look after you, 'Bill', when the time comes. MR. SPEAKER: (Sim ms ) Does the hon . minister wis h t:o speak on the motion? Is it ~he pleasure of t:he ~ouse to adopt ~he said rno~ion? Thos i:1. Eavour "Aye•, ~ontrary "3ay• , ca::-':'ii!ci. 74

- :·larch 3,1980 Tape !'lo. 26 AE! - 2 )!:!.. S?EJI. KER: The hon. Ministe~ of Fisheries. MR.MORGaN: ~r. Speaker, today I am pleased to inform the House of Assembly that a pa~tial re-oxsanization oE the oeparcment of Fisheries has now taken place of che senior management of the departme:!t;, as . ..,.ell as the ann 'ouncement today of two senior appointments to the provincial Fisheries Loan Board.

The re-or~anization in che deparcments resulted in the creation of a posicion for an Assistant Deputy M~n~ster who will take over che responsibility of administering the Divisions of ?rogram ?lannins and Review and Field Services and Administration . These divisions formerly rep .orted directly to che Deputy ~inister. The creation o= this new position will enable the Deputy Minister to concentrate bis efforts more and co-ordinate that of o~ber senior s~af~ in rlevelop i~g overall policies aAd strategies to meet pr~vincial :isheries objectives . Mr .

Speaker, the last re - organization o= che oepartmeot of Pisheries occured bac :, seven years ago and tha ~.rog.rams and acclv1.cies of the Department of 2isheries ~ince that cime have grearly expanded . The sta£: of che Departmenc has increased ~rom 4 7, as it was seven yea.rs ago, to now 130 and the budget has 1.ncreased =rom sa million, back in 1972, to now approximately ~40 million annually. I am pleased ~o announce the appointmenc of ti.r . R. A. (:<ay) Andrews, 38 yea.rs of age, formerly of Pore de ~rave, ~o t~e new position of Assistant De!,)uty :Hnister of ?lann~ng and Adminiscr acion . Mr.

Andrews holds a Bachelor 75

Y!arch 3,1980 Tape No. 26 AH-3 i!R. :10RGAN: of Science degree irorn Mernori~l University, and has a~proxirnately eighteen years 76 -

March 3, 1980 Tape 27 EC - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: experience in the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans in a number of technical and managerial capacities. His most recent post was the central area manager responsible for the central part of the Island and 1110st of Labrador. I indeed welcome Mr. Andrews to the Department of Fisheries and I am sure that his experience and his expertise will go a long way in better preparing the department to meet the challenges of the 1980s.

The creation of this new position of third A.D.M. brings the number of assistant deputy ministers now to three, the others being Mr. !ierb Goudie, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Fishe~ Services responsible for the divisions of Engineering and Facilities and Incentives and Assistance, and also Mr. Leslie Dean, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister of Fishery Development responsible for the divisions of Fishing Operations, Fisheries Technology as well as Market and Product Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Order, please! MR. J. l'IJRGA::: Mr.

Speaker, over the last while ~~e Fisheries Loan Board has been acting on an interim basis ,or carrying out work on an interim basis to the major review being carried out by government with regard to the act~vities and ~~e operations of ~~e :i:.oan Board. That review will be completed within te.'l days and I am pleased to announce today the appointment of a new permanent Chairman and a new Comptroller for ~~e Fisheries Loan Board. The new Chairman, I am pleased to announce, is Mr. Frederick G. Pike, a Registered Industrial Accountant, and he has been now appointed C.'lairman of the Loan Soard. Mr.

Pike, a native Newfcundlancier, nas considerable experience in the fishing industry. In fact, he served in a number of capacities with Fishery Products for as long as seventeen years. He has worked for the provincial Department of Finance and his previous position before taking the appointment of C.'lairman of the 77

- March 3, 1980 Tape 21 EC - 2 MR. J . 110aGA N ; Loa.Il Board was that of District Manager of Revenue canada. Mr. Pike is married to the fo%lller Eileen Mercer and ~~ey have one son. With the importance of the Fisheries Loan Board to the orderly development of the fishing industry, it was essential in my view as a minister, and as a view of the government, that we attract a senior executive who has a broad range of management and financial systeiiiS experience. I am quite confident, Mr.

Speaker, that the new Chairman brings with him the experience and the background to guide the Fisheries Loan Board in the challenging days ahead. The other appointment, Mr. Speaker, to the Loan Board as wel .l, is the appointment today I announce of the position of Comptroller of the Loan Board. I am pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. Sidney C. Blundon. Mr. Blundon, who is a Chartered Accountant, brings a wide range of financial, budgetary, management and government experience to the Loan Board, having been employed for the past three years as a Senior Budget Officer with the Provincial Treasury Board.

Prior to this, he w~rked for a nuriler of years with the Auditor General 's Department. Mr. Blundon is also married. He is thirty years of age and he is mar;ded to the former Shelley Willar. They have three children. During the past few weeks, Mr. Speaker, the Loan Board, in an interim way, has been carrying 78

~La~;;:: 3;o l/ SC Tape ~:o. 28 so - 1 :-iF:. .J. ::oRe...~.) ! : on the programme annoW1ced by t.'l.e ?remier las': fall whereby t.l)e loans would be arr<\U1gec for t.~e buildi~g of t~e~ty new boats,rangi~g in a forty - five - sixty-five fooc range, and r.o date eleven of t.'lese loans have J:>een approved and contncts a~<'<lrciec anc the remaining boats will ha;re ao>plicar.ior.s ap:;>rovec and ccnt.::"ac-::s awarcec over the r:exr nwti:le:: cf ~ays. ."-lso, over the pasc six wee.'c:s t.'le Loan 3oa::C. is s~il~ bei:1.g a.ct.ive 1 d.esp:it.e the complains from ce:-c.ain sectors that t:le ~oan Board is no longer active, it is active ·r~ herei' y over r.he pasc sLc l(ee!cs a to~ o: si:<ty-se:.ren new .!.cans .,ere approveci , si~ty-seve. n ne~' loans frJ it!l '="'""ent.y- t;wo ct these !or ne '" and used vessels anc forty-five, ~lr.

S~aker, :-~e.,. loa...,s Eo= ~~e ac~~isiticn cf :-~ew engines and o~'ler :ishing equi~ment requi.red by t-:,e .:isher:r.en. '!.'he tot.a.l value o.: t::.-::se !oans, ;:z ~ Spe.a..l.c.e-=, ·ilaS almost 52 :nillior:.s in :ac~ Sl.9 :nil .!.ion Eo::r ~-:,e ~as:. si.x ~·eek s.

An<:i as I me.:tcionee, t..~e !.oar. 3oe.::-d ·,.,ill ::.e car:-yi.n.g on its acti ~Jities i.:t an i::te::-:.:\ ""'~ay !!nt.il t.'1e o11er;:;. l~ re11ie;.: is coa:plete, whic:-. will i::e a??roximatel y ::en days ===-om now 1 ~C. c..~en, of course, t..~e:re ·.-.till be ne~ poi..!.c-; guiCe!..ines anC. c::'ite~ia set C.owr, by O::te do:!~rt::.er..t w.!.:.., regaz C.S to ::...~e fat.ur~ opera.tior~s o i t:.ha 1:. :=oar<!~ aue !. am convinced with a new Chairman ~o~ ~ei~g pu~ i~ place and a new Compt r olle r t:la-c r.he Loan aoa:o ·.nn ·::e :U:le ro !lanCJ.e tl":e chalbnges of the future :.n t~e :fis!leries i~ o~= Pro,;i~ce.

SCt1E EO!! . !"'~"!E:E?..S: :,::R. S?::.:UCZR: (Simms) Strai ~ of .Sell.a Is~e . :).?... E. R03Ea<:"~ : T~an..tt you, :tr. Spe.U .. er. :fear~ hear4 T~e ~on. me~e= :or ~e 1'!r . Speake r, t!u s seems ::o be r::..'le ea of t.:1e L1c~ ~itte = ,rut in t~e abse~ce c: ~Y :~i enC fr~~ ':"::inity - 3ay ::ie Verde Utr. ~1. ?.owe) 1 •.,ho no::r.a!ly s ;:::ealts :fo:: SOD"..e fi~he::"ies J',a:tte=s,pe:-::.aps ! ccc.lC. sat :l ·h~r~ c.r t·~:o. 79

::a :ch ~, 1 ~so Tape ::o . 23 SD - :Z ::R. ;: . ::<QBZ?.l'S: Let C\e begin by saj'inc; ·<~e ·.;elcc ·t:!e the ::e"'s, ·.·e '"elcor.e it :or two reasons. :i rs t of all, •:e ha~ been wai ting a lon g , long ~~ and so have the fis he ~n of t!'!is ?rovi..-.ce !'or some reso lu1:.io 'n of the apparently hard to credit ~s s ~~a t existed ,and ~ope!ully no lon ger e~ists ,at the ?'isl:eries Loa.-. 3oard . Anc!. the a??ointn:enc of t."'e ::ew C."lairman, !!r . ?ike, and ~::e new Con:p t.roller , :-u-.

Bluncon , is certainly a step in -:.'le right direction. vre '"i sh them well •<~ith thei r ·,;ork anc we !'tope that in t..lle days to come they will evic!.ence, as : al!l su= t.'ley ca.~ and I oelieve they will , t..'le cor:!'ic!.cnce t.::at has ~ .... ?lacec!. in c.'lem ~y ::.'le clr:ister and by his colleague s. The appointmen t of ~\ r. Jlndre•,.,s as an ADX in tbe Fisheries Jepa=~ent ~s also we lco~ed.

As !ar as ! aJ: conce:-::ec! the record of ::.'le :ishe:ie s ~e?a:t=.e:~t t.'lese la st !'e t.; years shews t.~t i!' •<~e :1eec! any t."'i..'l g we need sor.e pl annbg ir. there . ':'he ?'is heries De!;ar.:m.en t of t!'tis Province r.as not fulfilled it mandat e.

I wo~d hope with a new mi nis t~r . de te r.ninec to ~~e !'lis ~ark in ~he ?Olitical •~rl:, t!'!at N~ will see a favourable "ark oace. ! w~sh we could go on to debate ~h e :is~eries Loan Soa=c ~ecause I sus?ec~ , Si r, :~4t ·nile :1 t~e t.'lrough is f::1own about t!'!at. it ·.o~ill ::e ~k!! :he l<cqean Stables an<! it. will :a.!(e !:ercules co clea.-. it: ou t, : eo not k.-.ow •.rhet.. 'H! r :·:r. ?:.!-::e ar.c! '!r. Slcn.cor: 80

:!arch 3, l9R:l Tape No. 29 EL - l :;R.. E. P.GE'!':F.""S: arP. Rerclllean or not, b•.1t I :::an assure them that their task is Herculean. I would hope in this session of t.'l.e !:ouse we will have from the zr.inister somet.'":ing which •.Ye have not had so far, and that is a candid and a complete explanation of just what went on at the Loan Foard and what the governirent has done about it. I am quite prepared to believe that nobody in the present adr.-inistration knew '"hat •:as happening. '!'hey r.1ay or may not have been neqligent. I do not think it was. '!'hey had a right to believe that things '"ere okay.

But nobody knew 'o'hat '"as happening and ! am prepared to accept, if we are shown this to ;1e the case, t.'lat when things came to t.'leir attention t.'le? took t.'":e steps to straighten it out. aut I do say, Sir, that everything PNe on t~is side know, and my friends from 3onavista :·:art.'": (Hr. L. Stirling), LaPoile (!1r.

S. ~leary) and sore otl",ers have a ~reat deal of info~ation on this, that the situation at t.'l.e Loan Soard could only be co~~ared to the Allgean Stables and the great wess which resulted - t!le ~-l.!gean Stables, r recall, -:.;e~-= se,reral thousand horses t.'lat had not heen ;:leane-: up after for ~any, :r.any years, and that is just: the kine of situation t."lat I understand :~!:'a ?ike 1 t::.e ne~.of cr,airr.ian I and his assist~nt I ;.!r • 3li.!ndon, ~\'ill have to clean up. lve in the House , Sir, - ~1R~ S .

I·iEA~-Y: ]L"ld now they are ~a.t:i~-~- out on the fishermen, and repossessing ~~ei~ boats . :-:P. :::. ROE EFTS : Yss, -the fishett.en are bcari:'!g tlle brunt of it. There are seven hundred fisherire:l. expecting loar.s anc :.ee!l leC. to belie·Je t~:.ey had a good chance !:o get ~~~u. 2.~d onl:; 2'J are teing apr: roved. ':'he fi~he!:men have not tee!l i'lell treateC~ .:nd. I t..'1ink it is i~cur.t'::·ent "..lpcn the go<ri·E!rr.r.tent,as I .said,to give ~s a candi.-: a.."ld a complete ~xplar.ation.

Ther ,··" ·.1en t.-..•e have see:! that ,·.,·e • . ...,·ill Lie .i.:-.. a position to kno\\' ·.,het.::.e~ the ~.:overnr..ent ~as taken the a~p!:'opr-ia~e steps or r.ot. It is a subj:ct, :tr. Speak~r, of · .. :~ic~! a r;r8a:: 3eal. ~c='= ~-.- i~l 81

:-larch 3, 1980 Tape No. 29 EL - 2 M3.. :: . ~09E: R TS: be· .heard in this session of the House and ±t is well it is so. SOME HON . MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Chairman, may I di .rect tny question to the hon. the Premier since it encompasses a number of different departme ·nts. He will not be surprised when I say to ·him that it is about Come by Chance.

Is the Premier in a position to give us an unqualified assurance that regardless of what develops that the come by Chance refinery will ~ot be either dismantled or tnoved away altogether or sold as scrap? MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) P~EMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, we are working as diligently and as hard we can, the Minister of Finance and other minist~rs in the government right now, to ensure that that kind of theory does not come into practice, that in fact, the Come by Chance refinery is not sold as scrap.

We are moving ahead on a number of frorits right now and are. into negotiations with a number of people on the Come by Chance oil refinery and it is the policy of this government to see that that refinery is put back into operation as soon as is possible. MR. D. JA-MIESON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 82

:-!a rch 3, 1980 Ta?e :>:o. 30 ow - 1 ~!::t . S?::.!.KE?.: (SI!H!

S) A sup pl ementar tf:e hon. eader of th e Oppo si~ion. :1R. D. JAMIESON: I thank the hon. the Premier :or his answe:-.

My ques~ion was prompted by reports and I ~auld like to ask him now whether it is indeed now a :act that t~e :irst mortagees,or their agents or a com­ bination o= thew have in fact com e co the governm e~t 'l"ith a clear -cut indication coat · they themselves are in fact ~ now getti~g close co the ?Oint at least whe re they ._._auld be prepared t_o dismantle - that: is, on the one hand I make the distinction between dismantling for sale ~or re -erection somewhere else 1 or simpl y selling tt for scrap in the matter that: I outline d? :-!.R . 5.?EAKE3.: ~he hon. t~e ?=~mie: . PRE!! IE!!. ?::C:<FORD: xr.

Speaker , w~ ~ave had neqotiacions, talks with ECGD and the Receiver, and gverybody else inv olve C in the refinery over c~e last ~eek or two weeks as ~c relates to its fu tur e, and there is a fair amount of concern b•inq expressed by ZCGD, They have been i ~volve e in mothballing the re=ioery for ~u~ce some time now, and of course , they have cer tain pressures on them in 2~glanc chat we do not nere or c~e agency :or the Sritisa Government does erom ics masters, the ?O~i:ic~ans and the Government of England.

Ther~fore~ they are ex?ressinq concern to us abouc the :ucure of ~he Come ~y Cha nce reeiner~ as it is now, and trying to get it re-openec. .>.nd those talks are cont~nu~og, there has nothing been :i nali zed as it relates to them remo ving any interest t:bat they ha ve , there has nothing been finalized wi th the~ as it relates co the~ noc continuing co mothball . The matter is still beir.g ~~scuss ed *ith the Receiver ourselves, ~CGO and ever1boC.y else cue there has been concern ex?ressed by ~CGD in the ongo inq 83

:·larch 3, 1980 Tape No. 30 D~l - 2 P:> .E:!!ER PECKFORD: mothballing cost of the refinery. They have expressed those concerns to us and we aae now talking to them about those concerns. MR. D. JAMIESON: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. :~R. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: I thank the hon. Premier again. This is strictly for information purposes.

Does ECGD or the first mortagee or whatever combination is in the primary position here, do they have the right to go ahead and make a decision with regard to the demolition of that refine~y withou~ the concurrence of the Govern­ ment of Newfoundland? :·lR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Prem~er . PREMIER PECKFORD: I have to defer to one of my colleagues present as to the legalities of the question. I do not know if the Minister of Finance (Or. collins) or the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) would like to respond to that in detail. I will bow to - MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Mr . Speaker, the present situation is that before the security Cdn be realized in any way,the consent of the court has to be obtained to the realization of the security. There is ongoing litigation before the cou~ts now with respect to it. And in the view of most pepple the scrapping of the refinery, wnich would :.e the very ~3.st step that this governnent would envisage would ever be allowed to be taken, but the scrapping of that refinery wou1d 1in fact, be a realization of the security. 84

Harch 3, 198 0 Tape No. 30 Dl~ - 1 11 R. ~lARS HALL : So in answer to the han. Leader of the Opposition's question, before this was done,apart from whatever position the government will take wi~h respect to it per se 1 and I can undertake to the House that the government will take a very strong position with respect to it 1 that certainly there would have to be the 85

~!arch 3, 1980 Tape No. 31 NM - 1 1-!R. :1ARSH_l>,LL : consent of the court as well,because this would, as I say, involve a realization of the security. MR. JA..111IESON: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : A final supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Perhaps I might direct it to the Minister of Finance, if I may. Is it possible for us, or would it be possible for him to prepare a definitive statement for the House within the next few days giving the situation as it exists at the present time.

I do not wish to take the time now to recall the number of different times that we have had indications that there were going to be resolutions of it. Now this has led to,again,an enormous amount of confusion. Would it be possible and can the minister give a date at which it might be possible for him to at least let us know what the state of play is,and perhaps at that time also include some reference to the various reports we have heard that there may be a rela~onship between the maintenance of this facility and the offshore oil and gas developments? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, the Corne By Chance refinery situation is clearly one of great interest to many people in the Province and we have taken pains to inform, mainly through the media because these matters break quickly, mainly through the media we have taken great pains to inform all those interested and we are thinking primarily here of the people in the Corne By Chance area. It is an ongoing situation. There are changes. I am sure the hon.

Leader of the Opposition understands that the oil business generally is in a state of great volatility now and this particular matter is perhaps one of the more volatile in that situation. So there are changes almost daily. If one made a statement at any definitive moment in time it might well have to 86

:-~arc:: 3, 1980 Tape ~o. 31 NM - 2 OR . .J. COW. INS : be amenC::ed with i:'l twent:y -four hou rs e'ltm All I can say to che hon . metr.be :- is chat '"e will concinue t:he undertaking >~e gave some time a ~o and that: i:S that when illatters of il!l.port.ance in regard to ':be ref ir:ery :;no uld be mad e known we will make the!!\ known.

I do have tc make this caveat that ~Jice of ten t~e re are things g oL~g on whic h the individuals concerned in ~sh to have confidentiality ~ reserve~ .t;il such time as somet.'ling very definite comes co pass , and ::.he receivor ·~·ho ceals •Nicll th ese honours chat and we feel ;:hat :.~e should ::all in behind the receivor in the regard . 11R. SPEAKE.~ (Simms ) MR. NEArt'! : The hon . member for LaPoile. Mr .

Spea~er, we have heard so much about: ap,poinc:nent:s today .from t:he government: bench es, I ·~"O nder if the hon. tbe Pr~ier would care to tell the House o= the circumst:ances surr oun ding c!'l.e firi:<g or t:he resignation of :-~r. l~illi am E. :ea.=. Deputy :-tinis~er vf <i:lance and Co m?tro ller of ::!'le !'-reasury? HR . SPE:JU<ER: •Th e hon. the P~emier . P~USR PEC:<FOR!l : Mr.

Speaker, all the i:1fo= a .:ion conce:r:~im;; the r~ siqnation of ~I. ~ear!l has been made ?llblic. a!ld ther e is no more I can add than has ~a~ made. the ~i s:: er of ri:1ance can ~espond to ~'le ~on. m e ~ber's ques~ion as ~ell . 87

Haren 3, 1980 Tape 32 EC - 1 PREHIER PEC!(.FOP.D: :1r. Fearn has resigned as dep1.:.ty minister just a few weeks ago and we have now advertised for some o~~er person to fill that role, and that is where it is. Mr. Fearn resigned, as far as I know, for personal reasons and that is where the situation is. There is just no other information, Mr. Speaker. I do not know if the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) has an~~~ing more to add or not. MR. ~E.ZU<Y : MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. (Simms) A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, t.~e hon. the member MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the han. gentleman care to indicate to the House whe~~er Mr. Fearn resigned or was fired? If he resigned, did he resign under duress after a row wi~~ the Premier in his office on ~~e Eighth .Floor? And if so, would the hon. ga~tleman - I think he owes it to the people of this Province to tell the true story because this particular individual occupied one of the highest, one of t.~e most senior positions in government, Deputy l1inister and Comptroller of the Treasury,and just did not resign out of a clear blue sky. Would the ho~. gentleman care to tell the people?

The han. gentleman campaigned in the election that he was goin·g to bring honesty to government, that he was going to give the people - MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. !o!ARSHAL.L: MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. !'.R. W. MARSHALL: Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, a point of order.

A point of order, the non. the President The hon. gentleman is out of order primarily because he is impugning the honesty of a member of the House but also his whole auestion - not his whole question,but the latter part of his question is out of order in ~~at it contains certain imputations, the imputation being ~,at the whole story is not being told. I would submit, Your Honour, that it is perfectly appropriate during ~uestion Period to ask questions to elicit information from any member of ti>e ministry but it is not within the rules 88

Maz-ch 3, 1980 Tape 32 EC - 2 MR. W. MA..'<SHALL: of this House or any other Eouse for a question to contain imputations to the effect that somebody is :10t telling the true story or not giving out the true story. MR. E. ilOBERTS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Si11U11S) To the point of order, the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ilOBERTS : If I might, Mr. Speaker, I find it peculiar that a aember of the government would object to a member on this side reminding the government of their collllllitment to honesty and total disclosure.

I do not think the coiiiiiiBnts preparatory or supplementary to the question asked by my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) were in any way out of order. He was not impugning anyone's motives. And as for the gratuitous COIIII!Ient for which we are suitably grateful t.l·1at we are allowed to ask questions to elicit information, I would say ~ the minister and my learned friend that we will ask ~~e questions and we do that very well. If they on the o~~er side were one half as good at giving information as we are at asking questions we would not have this kind of thing. MR. JAMIESON: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. E. ROBERTS : I think the Premier should be allowed to answer the question. Many of us suspect we have not had the full story about Mr. Fearn and we intend to keep after it. MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the pain~ of order, I 'o'Ould rule there is no point of order, there is clearly a difference of opinion., rhe hon. member has asked the question if the hen. the Premier wishes to respond. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot answer and give all ~~e information on every question totally to the satisfaction of every single member of this House every time I get on my feet to give information, because,obviously, some people might believe and other people might not believe. I can only leave it to hen. gentlemen of the House on bo~~ sides ~~a to the media to re~ort 89

~!arch 3,1980 'l'ape No. 33 .\H - 1 P:u::UER P!:CK!'ORO: the facts as they are given and then allow individuals to c~icicize anc to attack what I have said ano to make certain allegations about what they th~nk I have not said and I should have said. All I can inform the hon. member, be asked the quest~on whether ar. :earn resigned or whether he was fired, and I have answered the question that ~r. :earn resigned and th at th ere is no more to it than chat. :f the hon . :~~ember for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) wants to allege that there is more to it than chat 1 the bon. member is qu~te in his rights so to do .

I nave answered the question for the hon. member . There is noch~ng hidden . There is no dishonesty on my pare in giv~ng the information . I can only gi'le all the information chat :have~ ~~at is tha~ ~r . ?earn has res~qneo ~n~ h} is ~o lcnqer the jeputy ~inister, one of the sen~or poses of gove rn men t. We now bave an As sist ant Deputy ~inister !illing in as Deputy Minister. We have gone out to ads to attrac-:. other competent people to apply for that JO b. There is no more chan cbat co ic.

If che hon. member knows someching more than I do,! would ask ~im co please provide ~he inf~rmacion for me so chat I can check ic ouc . 3ut ~r . rear n has :es~;ned a~d ~hac ~s all there is to ic. I cannoc be more t~an honest:. I can only give all the i nformac~on ! have a nc c ha c 1 s i c . !'!R. NC:AR'f: A supplement:ary. MR . S?E.\KER: (Simms) .>. final supplementary. The non. member for La?oile. ~R. NEARY: NOUld the hon . gentleman, Sir, indicace co the House if he and ~r.

Pe arn had any very s er ~ous disagreements or discussions or ~= ~r. :'e ar!'l' s res<.gn "acion was suggeseed by the hoo. gentleman because of his han dllng o: the negotiations wit~ the ?irst Arabian Co r porat~on co take over the oil refinery ac Co~e By Chance? !s this what 90

!-larch 3,1980 MR. NEARY: Mr. Fearn? Tape No. 33 AH-2 led up to the resignation of And would the hon. gentleman also - I would like to make it a double-~arrelled question seeing Your Honour said it was my last- I ask the han. gentleman what settlement the government will make with Mr. Fearn? Will they make a similar settlement as they made in the Cole case? HR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS ) PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first part of the question is ~o, it had nothing to do with his handling or anybody else'snandling of the Come By Chance situation.

The severance pay and whatever else was due Mr. Fearn as a senior civil servant, as ±s given to all senior civil servants, was applied and we can provide the hon. member with that information over the next number of days. No, it had nothing to do with Come By Chance and,two, obviously with a senior post like this, a man like Mr. Fearn, we did provide him with the normal severance pay allocations which are provided to all people who leave ~he service and who had such senior jobs as Mr. Fearn held. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries dealing with the Fisheries Loan Board. Can the minister tell us how many applications are still in the possession of the Fisheries Loan Board for which fishermen have not been given a satisfactory answer to these applications that were on file prior to the two boards being appointed? 91

:-tarch 3, 1980 Tape No. 34 DW - l MR. SPEA.K~R: (SIMMS) MR. J. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I am not clear on ~he question with regard to the two boards bei~~ appointed,but I am assuming he means the appointment today of two members of the board.

But the situation of the Loan Board is that in the Fall of 1979 the go•ernment had to issue additional funds to that board to keep it operating and the total allocation this tinancial year up until the end of Mardh will be $24 million, $24 million additional dollars to that board and that is in comparison to in 1978 1 last yea~ a total ~f $8 million. So there w·as three times as much money went into the loan in this present fiscal year than in any other previous year.

The total number of applications on file when I took over the department in checking into the Loan Board was around - I can get the. exact for t-he ·hon. gentle~an - but it was around 700. Nor many of these applications were not qualified applications, the applications had to be screen~d and the applicant~screened accordingly and it came down to between I thin ·k it was around 250 or 275 q·ualified applications. And many of these applications are being processed under the interim finaneing which was put in last Fall in October,up until now. M·R. S. NEARY : ~I R.

J. ~!ORGnN : How many votes were there? 1 me~tioned in my today's statement a total of twenty-two boats in the last six or seven weeks vere approved for loans in eithe~ as•d boats or new boats, in most cases used boats where thev changed ownership. So: the board i·S still active and obviously quite active dqring this preser.t fiscal year by spending $24 million of the taxpayers ~oney. 92

March 3 , 1980 Tape No. 34 ow - 2 MR . L. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS} A supplementary, the hen. member for aonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) still has not ans~ered the question. But to be specific as a supplementary question,all of us have requests from fishermen who have had their boats financed through the Fisheries Loan Board and now have need for new engines to go in these boats, the old engines are not working. He knows very specifically about one that he agreed to intercede on his behalf.

That application has been here since early Spring, he is about to start fishing in his longliner, he is now behind in hi~ pay- ments, and the Fisheries Loan aoard has told him that they will not finance his engine. Now how does the Minister of Fisheries pEcpose to handle the a~~lications of fishermen in that kind of situation? Their banker, the Fisheries Loan Board,have financed the boat, they cannot go fishing, what is the minister's '?OSition? )!.R. NEA!l."!: lie is too busy repossessing boats. MR. S?EAKER: The hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR . J. ~!ORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I will answer the question in detail because the hon. gentleman brought up an individual case. But I will say, first of all, Mr. speaker, while I am the Minister of Fisheries I am not goinq to interfere in the operations of the lean board. Never~ Never! SOME'HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. MO)<,GAN: I am not going to interfere on any individual loans being made or any applicants. The criteria is set down for the board to operate on it. And in one cas~ a few days ago,representations came from a certain member and a certain area,and one case from the 93

~arch 3, 1980 Tape ~~o. 34 ow - 3 :~R. 3. :-tORGAN: 9onavisca North area aski~~ ~e to interfere and I said, ·~o. I am ~oc going co interfere , The criteria is set down: And if that hon. gentleman wants to i~cerfere himself I still think it is wrong because the criteria is set down. In this case, the man has been ir. arrears for ~wo or three years ~n ~is payaents, there has no payments ~eing made. I can give the hon. gentleman details outside the House if that is necessary. 9ut this o~e individual case, I am not going co interfere; in fact 1 in any other case in the future.

The situation is there is inceri~ :inancing arranged right now up until the end of ~arch, our new fiscal year,and the board is dealing with the ap~lic~cions on a hardship ~asis.

Any cases where an applicant meets the criteria, meets the guieel~nes and there is hardship involvee ,where there is a boat with no eng2ne, ?or example, or a boat wit h no ~is~~g gear or equipment on the boat, these applications will ~et pr1oricy unde r the interim financing period u;. ~ n ti l ~ ~~ end of ~4ar:::h. aut aga1~ t want to repeat ! am not going to get involved in intercepti~g any applications on oehal! of any applicant while I am ~inister of Fisheries. HR. :l. JAMIES ON: ~IR. S?E:.>..KZR: ~eacer o~ t~e Opposition. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . A supplementar1, the hon. 94

:.:arch 3, l~ SO Tar:;e No. 35 so - 1 ~!.R. D. JJ\..'IIESON: Mr. Speaker, I would not have asked for a supplementary but I do think the han. minister would want to set the record straig:-t.t wit.!J. regard to his us .e of the word 'interference! If I heard him correctly-and if I did not, my apoloc;r!" he did not feel t.'lat-I believe he said, "Mel!'.bers ought to interfere".

Well,surely, without becoming argUII".entative, he did not mean that it was inappropriate for members on either side of the House to make representations to the Fisheries Loan Board or to any other government body on behalf of their constituents, I just 1-rant to make that point. Is that his understanding of it? HR. SPEA.'<ER: (Sin!ms) ~!R • J. ~ORG!-.N : ~he hon. ~~r~ster of Fisheries. :1r.

Speaker, to clarify it 1 u~~ing representation and writing to the Loan Soard Chair.nan or to l!"yself, t.IJ.e Minister responsible for the Board, is one thing ,=ut asking the Il'inister to interfere to make s=e that t.'le applicant gets special preference over and aJ:ove the guidelines under which the Board operates, that is totally wrong. And that is what I am saying making representation is one t..'linq but asking a minister to interfere and to override the guidelines and criteria is a separate t.!J.ing altogether. sc:!E !!ml. :!E ;1BE:<.s: 1{R. L. STIRLING: Spea.l.:.e= . :-o!R.

S?~~..?CEP. ~ hen. member for Bonavista North. MR. L • . STIRLING: near, he a:~ A final supplementarj, ~r. A final supplementarj, the Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The minister has touched on something ~hich indicates t.!J.at we are going from one situation to the extreme opposite and agair. the fishermen are going to get hurt. Is it true that the Fisheries Loan Board, either on t.~eir own or taking directions from the minister, are now taking the position t.~at any fishermen who are in arrears, ev~n though ~,ey may have been let go in arrears 95 .,! >< >- > ;:,.

c·!arch 3, 1980 Tape No. 35 SD - 2 :·IR • L. STIRLI::G: wi~h the blessing of the Fisheries Loan Board, are they now taking a position that any fishermen in arrears have no other choice but to have their boats repossessed and they have taken that position? c•lR. S. ~TEARY: SmlE HON. :·!EHBERS : :1R. SP2AKE R: (Si=s) ~1R. J. :~ORGA.'l: And put them up for sale. Right on~ Order, please~ The hon. :1inister of Fisheries. :·!r. Speaker, I am rather surprised at these kinds of comments coming from responsible individuals.

Surely, if we are going to spend the taxpayers' dollars, we are not going to be making loans left and right to every fisherman or farmer or anybody else in any ind ustrY and not make arrangements to have these payments paid back to goverr~ent. Sure we can not keep har.C.ing out the taxpayers' dollars and say, "E:ere, keep en taking ~ney but do not ?aY it back ... , Surely we are not s;cing to do ~~at. And all I said, :he individual case referred to by ~~e ~o~. gentleman, if it be one individual case, ~as that one of the major reasons why ~~e loan could not be approved was because of the financial criteria.

In this case, the man was in arrears for ~'le last number of years and no payr.ents made on his boat. That is one of the reasons, a very obvious reason '""hY it could net be approved. :-l!L E. R0°E?.TS : go after them for ~~e balance? :-!R. G. NA.'<.REN: :·!R. S • ~TEARY : :!R. SPEAKER: •fuen you take the boat do you A supplementary. ~1r . Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. r::emi::er for Torngat mountains, unless he wishes to yield to the hon. member for LaPoile for a supplementarj. ~1R . G. WAR.."lE~l : I yield. :t.'<.. 3 . !1E.~RY : Do I undeq;tand the rr.inister cor ~ ec t ly, Si r?

Is the I:!.inis te r saying t..'J.at the go ver nm er.t ra..""'l an ~uef= i ci en t ~ is heri~s Lo an Soard, a sloppy op era tio n , did no t col!.e ct ~:teir !::i!..l s anC . are nc~ ' taJ-: ing i~ ou t on ~ .e fishermen, p u ~ ti ng the bo ots to the fisherr..en, r.ot giving t!L err e. c~la:-1ce, 96

::"rch J, 1::- ao Ta pe ~~ o . 35 SD - 3 ~1R. S • ~lEARY : creating hardship because they are de!!landing all their money in arrears or the bo.at will be 90ssessed and an ad put in the newSpaper? Is that what I understand the minister is sayinc;:? If it is, Sir, then that is aompletely irresponsible. 'l'he fishe:rmen should be given a chance. ~L~ .• SP!:AKER: (Simms) Order, please! Order, please! 'l'he hon. member has asked his question. ~he non. Minister of Fisheries. ~!R. J.

MORGAN: Mr. ·:Speaker, there was no question asked about repossession. 'l'h .e question was asked about approving a loan, getting a loan application processed. There was no question asked to me today about a repossession. The question of repossession i.s a straightfon~ard policy; it has always been the policy of the Loan SOard and ,.·ill be in t.l-te future 1 that like any other system of paYllle:t:.ts or payments not being :na.de on th:e loan, action has to be taken. And the question was asked ine by the qentleman from Bona vista North (Mr. L.

Stirling) about an application that was not processed and he was asking me ... ny it was not p:mcessed. And I told him that it was not processed because of arrears in the acccunt. I did not mention any repossession. MP., SPEAKER: The han. ~mber for Torngat Mountains. MR. G. W~t: Hr. Speaker, my question is addressed to the Minister of Rural, Aqricllltural and NortheD'l Devel _opment (l·ir. J. Goudie).

It is my understanding t.fJ.at there are areas on the Isla11d portion of the Province that are designated as agricultural land and at t.l-te present time many people in Happy Valley - Goose 3ay are interested in prosecuting t.fJ.e f.a=ing industry and there have been good reports sayin <;: t."!at 97

March 3, 1980 T.;pe No. 36 NM- 1 :4R. !iTA.'q..J:U:N: there is land there sui table for farming 1 but however there is no land allotted. Does the minister in the foreseeable future, probably a few ITIO:nths down the road, see some land in Labrador allotted for agricultural purposes? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : 1-!R. GOIJOIE: The hon. Minister of Rural Development. Mr. Speaker, as most members of the hon. House are aware, we are into the third year now of a programme where soil analysis and other studies are taking place to determine the best agricultural land.in the Province and that includes Labrador.

As a matter of fact we have recently, within the last year, appointed a person to serve out of the Happy Valley - Goose l3ay office to deal with agricultural matters in Labrador. That programme is ongoing, the studies are ongoing,and Labrador will be included in that. To this point in time there has not been a

section of land in Labrador designated as agricultural,but as the bon. member is also aware I think there are two people in the HaJ?PY Valley - Goose Bay area now who­ have been producing - as a matter of fact, if I could point out, one of the two people involved in agriculture last year made his fir.st commercial sale of potatoes which went into stores on the coast of Labrador. So there is some effort going ahead and in terms of ass·istance programmes, they are open to pretty well anyone in the Province.

One of the criteria is that a producer must be selling at least$2,000 worth of product a year in order to qualify for certain programmes. so we are looking at designation in · Labrador, we just have not gotten to that point in the five year programme yet. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. 98

l'.arch 3, 1980 Ta;>e No . 36 N!~ - 2 HR. l•IARREN: ~lr .

S;>eaker, if this programme does come into place in the foreseeable future - anc as most of us are aware chat the shipping seasc:m into Labrador is •·ery short , we only have probably a ~~ee or four monc.h shipping season - and c.he farmers are pr eparing c.he land which is already thawed out, all the snow and ice is gone on the land but t.he shipping lanes are stLl :rozen up and there is no way of getting fertilizer, limestone, c.he other ingr edients nec essary for farming into the area, would the ' gove!:'nment undert:ake to have supplies sc.ored i:'i Happy Va l l ey- Goose Ba y in the E'ali of the year :or the followir.q Spring •,;hen a farmer can avail of the fertJ.lizer, lime!':tone, etc . , ac. a most reasonable price? c1R.

SPEA.~P. ( Simms ) : MR.. GOUDIE: The hon . Minister of Rural Oevelcpmenc. . Mr . Speaker, as a part of che ~oncerns relating to agriculture in Labrador, that obviously i£: a ''e r y lar~e concern. the storage of :ertilizer, of seed potacoes. of lime and so on . Bec aus e agricul~ure, in c.q_~s o~ volume, i s on a very small scale in :nost ?Srts of tabraeor yet , we ar~ aderessing ourselves t:o tbac. parc.icular ;:>r obl~m .

One of t:he complicat:ions comin g ! :1. •,;hen addressing t:hac concern is that. governmenc. 1 generally speaking 1 is not: normally in the retail business , so there is a difficul~y to be ove.rcome .

We are addressin~ ourselves to that: and we will hope to have somet:hlng in place for chis coming season and : would also want co reassure the hon. mel".ber for Torngat ( ~.r. warren) that as he nas concern for his pare. of Labrador, I also hav.e an equal concern :or other parts and for all parts of Labrador, a~ the diEficul~y chat: we have a=e being addressed right now by t:he people in che agricultural division. :.!R. St>=:A&ER: The hon. member :or '!'erra ~ova . MR. LUSH: !1!'. 3peaker, r want to direct: a quest: ion co t:he ~tinist:er of ~lunicipa~ Affairs, and it: is L; re.:.at:ion to the 99

:.1a::c!l 3, : 9S O ':'ape No. lo !o/:1 - 3 :-1.~. :..usr:: :-tunicipalJ.c.:.es Ace thac ~s passeC :.n t!-!is ::ouse Lot the l.ss:: session and the question is r am 'Oror.dering i£ the mi!t.iste:: can inform the House as to how municipalitie s will be a!fected in this present fiscal year with respect to meeLL,s ce_-ta i~ provisions of the act and I specif~ for ~~ample,::~t in orde :: to get f~,ds :or the i~sta!lation of •Nater and sewer that a mun~cipality must have a property ca x in place. so I am just wonde ring now that will affect municipalities ... he::e ::he ::e is no :;:>roperty ta x in place for ':his pa..-t:icular fiscal year . ~I ill these councils be discriminated against and get: no funC.ing for wate:: ~,c sewer installation? 100

!-larch 3 , 19 80 Tape 37 EC - l MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: 'nle situation as ~t relates to c.he Municipalities Act is that there are a number of provisions in it which will have to be phased in over a period of time.

An act that has the implications of that particular piece of legislation oould not possibly be brough~ in per se. one hundred percent as of a particular date. There are a number of provisions that will have to be phased in and this will obviously be one of them, the main factor being that we cannot assess all the properties co get property tax in place. It will probably take up to five years to do assessments on all the municipalities that will be required,under this act,to bring in property tax. So that will have to be phased in over a period of time.

As it relates to any requests for ~~is year, it will depend on the particular municipality as to whether or not we are in a position to .do the assessment to get property tax in place, as to whether or not we will be prepared to provide funding without it. So there will have to be some discretion used for ~~i~ year. Again, . we will also have to consider the financial situation in the mmlici?ality. If we felt it was imperative that we had such a resolution, then we may well ask for it. MR. SPEAKER: There is time for a final supplementary. The hon. the member for Terra Nova. M...J<..

LUSH: Is the minister saying then that there are municipalities that will not qualify ~~is year for funding because ~~ey do nat have a property tax in place? The minister did allude to the fact ~~at ~':tere could be differences, but certainly there must be some uniformity of procedure somewhere along the line. MR. FLIGHT: A new assessment dane. MR. SP::AKER: The han. the Hinistar of Municipal Affairs and <:lousing. HR. N. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, the act is quite specific, but ail I am saying is that we intend to use a grea~ deal of discretion, particularly for this year and the beginning of this phase-in period, in 1 0 1

March 3, 1980 Tape 37 EC - 2 :1R. N. loii..111DSOR: applying it. We may well say to a municipality that we would like a resolution that at a period in time you will be prepared to implement a property tax. Without that,we are not prepared to recommend funding simply because of the financial position of that municipality. If they are in serious financial problems right now it would be irresponsible of us to allow that municipality to incur further debt without taking ~~e steps as provided under the act. MR. LUSH: :1R. SPEAKER: (Simms) Yes. Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired.

I am sure all hon. members would like to welcome to the galleries today two gentlemen representing ~~e Port Blandford to Jamestown and Winter Brook Rural Development Association, Mr. ~art Hall, the President, and Mr. R. C. Day, the Co-ordinator. SmlE HON . MEJ-IBERS : Hear, hear! PRESENTL'IG REPORTS BY STANDL'<G AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.· Speaker, on behalf, if I may say so, of all members of the hen.

House, I would like to table the report of the Committee on Renumeration to Members of the House of Assembly and point out that ~,ere has been consensus on a number of recommendations that arise therefrom, one dealing with the sessional allowances that members will receive. It is presently at $13,446 and all members of ~~e House concur wi~, the new sessional allowance to go from ~13,446 to $19,000, and for there to be some upward escalation in the amount of money paid under Travel Allowances and ~,e per diem rate going from S46 tc S55 a day and for there to be twelve round trips from St.

John's to a central point in the member's district. These are the recommendations contained in the report which have found favour with hen. members. There are o~,er recommendations here which we take under advisement as members and over the next number of weeks and months, further talks with members on ~~is side and with members on the o~,er side will see whether in fact ~~ere is consensus on o~,er recommendations. During the Estimates and Budget time 1 0 2

March J, 1980 Tape 37 EC - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: appropriate provision for the escalation on the sessional allowance and on the travel allowances will be incorporated thereto, at which time hon. members can have some oppo~unity to speak further on it. On behalf of all hon. members, I table the report here in t."le House now and outline on a separate sheet those areas on which there has been agreement and on which there will be escalations. Thank you. 0 0 0 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms.) The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. MRS. li. NEWHOOK: I wish to table Real EState Licencing Regulations - 1979 in accordance with

Section 48 (2) of the Real Estate Trading Act. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for La.Poile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker,

WHEREAS it is obvious the Government of Newfoundland have failed to prepare a master plan for the orderly development of a collll!lercial offshore oil discovery; and

WHEREAS the impact of such a discovery could 1 0 3

~!arch 3, 1980 Tape No. 38 EL-l MR. S. NEARY: be devastating to the environment, the fishery and the social and economic life of our people unless the provincial government is prepared to go beyond merely regulating off­ shore resources. Therefore,

be it resolved that a select committee of the House of Assembly be appointed immediately to examine into all aspects of off-shore developments and prepare recommendations as to how Newfoundland should proceed with these activities, And be it further resolved that in view of the great urgency of this question, the comm- ittee be directed to submit and initial report during this session of the House! and be it further resolved that the committee have power to sit in and out of sessions, to send for papers and other documents and, generally, to exercise the powers which may be conferred on commissioners under the ~ublic Enquiries Act,

Chapter 314, Revised Statutes of Newfoundland 1970. ANSWERS TC QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTECE HAS BEEN GIVEN ~.' SPEAKER(SIMMSL PREM!ER PECKFORD: The han. the Premier. Even though there have been no quest- ions, I guess, given yet and technically speaking one cannot therefore provide an answer to which a question has not been yet proposed, I ask leave of the House to just table the expenses incurred in the renovations at Mt, Scio house and the level of maintenance, dollar-wise, that is provided thereto as a result of questions asked in the hen. House in the last session and I hereby tatle it. ~;R.

NEARY PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) ~. T. LUSH: I have a question arout it do~n on ITY desk. Tear it up. I am ahead of you. PRESENTING PETITIONS The hen. the Member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of approximately eleven hundred residents of the city of St. John's. The petition, Mr. Speaker- ~. E. ROBERTS: The Dorothy Wyatt (inaudible) . MR. T. LUSH: - was initiated by a group known to all of us as MOCHA, a group of concerned citizens who organized themselves 1 0 4

~.arch 3, 1980 Tape :-Jo. 33 EL - 2 HR. T. LUSH: in recent months in a large part~due to difficulties in communicating with L~e City Council and getting in- formation relating to the public affairs of the city of St. John's. Thus, the group set themselves up as monitors of council activities. The position , Mr. Speaker, was motivated and initiated for two main, salient reasons.

One, for the very real apparent deterioration relat- ing to council services in two important areas, the first of which was the council's decision to eliminate the water and sewerage maintenance and re?air services which had been done previously for a nominal fee and which now, of course, has to be passed aver to private contractors whc are obligated to charge excessive and exorbitant fees,especially to the average home-owner of St. John's. I understand it is because of the concern expressed by residents of St.

John's that this position has been somewhat modified but still considerably higher than what the rate pre- viously was. The second factor, ~r. Speaker, was again related to the cruel decision by the council to cut back on snow clearing of streets and sidewalks which has resulted in tremendous in- convenience to the people of St. John's, resulted in accidents and injur- ies that we have all heard about recently, indeed making the city very unsafe for pedestrians and drivers alike. The second reason, Mr.

Speaker, for presenting the petition in this fashion today,and which explains why I am presenting the petition because the group did not have any intention of presenting the petition through the House of Assembly" indeed they wanted to present it in a different fashion anu,as I have said,cecause of the difficulty of this,getting sufficien~ hearing or given the opportunities to voice their concerns wit~ one, the city of St.

John's itself, the difficulty of meeting with any officials, and second- ly, and the reason that I find most aggravating was their difficulty in getting a meeting with the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor) .• NOw whether the rn~nister denied thern the meeting or whether ~t was 1 0 5

March 3, 1980 Tape No. 38 EL - 3 ~IR. T. LUSH: because of his

schedule is something the minister c:an answer today when he rises to speak to the particular petition, but the point of ~~e matter is, Sir, ;that this particular group has been denied the right,the privilege, the democratic: priv­ elege of voicing their concerns with any officials of the City Council 1 0 6

)larch 3,1980 lB. LUS~ : Tape No. 39 Ai:l-1 and ~he provincial government. The whol~ matte r, Mr. Speaker, o! cutbacks in vital public services to the reside~ts of St. John's is :urther aggravated by the fact ~hat according to the City of St. John's Act, ~he city must have a oala~ced ~udget and all evidence points to a budget with a planned surplus. In view of these factor~. 3r . Speaker, in view of the cutback in vital public services and in view oi the difficulties by this particular group and by residents of St.

John's of opening up some harmonious and compatible lines of communication to advance their grievances and to get their grievances redresse~ the prayer of this petition, Mr. Speaker, is that•we,the u~dersigned,hereby petition the Lieutenant -Governor in Council to appoint a commission of three persons to investigate the finances and administrat~on of the ::i:::y o: St. John's.' And it is given its legal au~:tority, Mr. Speaker, under sect1on 320 of the City of St. John's Act which provides :hat any tenrate payers of the e±ty o: St.

John's may petition the Lieu~enant - Governor in Council to a ~~ oint a commiss1on of three persons to investigate the cicy • s ~i nances and adminis;:ra;:i.on Mr. Speaker, ! ask to have the pe~ition placed upon the table of the House and referred to the appr -opri ate department. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Af:airs and ~ousinq. MR. WHIOSOR: The hon . M1nister of Mun~cipal Mr. Speaker, I feel obligated ~o res pond very briefly,part~cularly to the allega;:~on that this group were unable to gee a meeting wi;:h myself. Admittedly, we did not have a meeting.

The request was made ~o ~y office the day before I lef: town , sometime during ;:hac morning; I was commitced fully that day and left t?wn early the next morning and a:r~ved back eleven o'clock lase n~ghc. So !l: has been lmposs~ble for me during the last week or two 1 0 7

Harch 3,1980 Tape NO. 39 AH -2 ~19. . N!NDSOR: to meet with them • I think I did instruct mY staff, mY secretary, to advise the group that I was unavailable on that particular day and was going out of town and would be only to happy to meet with them as soon as I returned. In the meantime,there areJhowever, some nine or ten members of the House of Assembly sitting on this side of the House representing the city of St. John's anQ. surrounding area and I am sure any one of those would have been only too happy to receive the petition. Nevertheless, I receive the petition attd will certainly take it under advisement.

MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Another petition. The hon. member for St. Barbe. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, before we finish ~ith that petition I would like to have a word on it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR . NSA . .R':!: Mr. Speaker, I was extremely in~eres~~d in th~ prayer of che peci~ion c~ac was presented by my hon. colleague, the member for Terra No11a Olr. Lush) . I chink it was a 11ery timely petition in view of the fact, Sir, chac che screets and the sidewalk s in ~he c1cy o~ St. John's and the services. generally speaking , were never as bad as they are at che present time.

I canno~ say that I blame ~his group for becoming very concerned abouc the way cne affairs of the ei~y of st . Joh~'s are ~eing managed. One day the City Council say they have no money to clear che sidewalks, chey have no money to clear the s~reets.Tbey make a decision that they are goi~q co charge for digging up sewer lines,and then the ne~t day they reverse themselves . And after telling us ~hey have no money 1 all of a sudden they come up with 5200,000 to carry on wich snow c1ea=ing. ~ow this is absolucely rid~culous, Mr. Speaker, and I do not know 1f che c~re is in ~hac ?etition or not. Maybe che c~U:e 108

:•larch 3,1980 Tape No. 3 9 AH-3 MR. NEARY: might be in the next election. But I believe the time is rapidly approaching when City Hall should be cleaned out. They need a little house cleaning dowr. there, Mr. Speaker. Gut her out. That is the only way t.o resolve that problem. 1 0 9

March 3, 1980, Tape 40, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: They have mismanaged the affairs of this city now long enough. They are acting in such a ridiculous manner that it is time to clean house. I must say that I think it is very timely, this petition. I do hope 1that the message will go out, whether it goes out through the minister or not, that the message will go out to the people, the elected representatives of the people of St.

John's down in City Hall, that generally speaking the people of this Province are disgruntled and dissatisfied with the way they are behaving and the work they have been doing in the last year or so. The policies that they have set down there, Sir, have set the City of St. John's back ten or fifteen or twenty years. I hope the answer is in the prayer of that petition, but maybe the only way to cure it is to do a little house cleaning down at City Hall the first opportunity the people get to get in'to the polling booths again. MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): As we are still at Presenting Peitions.

I am sorry, there is only one member allowed to speak to a petition aside from the member presenting. We have already had that on that particular petition. The han. the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett). MR. BENNETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: By leave, Sir. By leave. By leave? Mr. Speaker, if the han. gentleman from St. John's Centre (Dr. McNicholas) wishes to speak to this petiticn presented by ~y friend from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), we, for our part, are prepared to give him leave, Sir. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. By leave? By leave. 11 0

March 3, 1980, Tape 40, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns}: St. John's Centre. DR. MCNICHOLAS: The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I find it extraordinary that this group - I have never heard of them - should go to the han. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) when they could come to any member for St. John's Centre. I have been very critical of the city council in some aspects in the past and I would have been only too pleased to look into that matter. I am just wondering why they purposely went outside the members from St. John's itself. I am quite sure it was not felt that we would not look after their interests.

We would have been only too pleased. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. Barl':>e. MR. BENNETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 356 voters of Plum Point, Brig Bay, Blue Cove and the Burnt Cove area. The prayer of the petition is as follows: "We,the citizens of Blue Cove, Plum Point, Brig Bay and Burnt Cove, require better snow clearing. In our area we have one loader. This loader has been broken down all Winter with no hope of repair. Therefore, ~~e grader which clears the main highway must now also clear our area. This is done after it clears the main roads.

This area is getting very poor service. We the undersigned demand better service. We request that an operational loader be placed in our area immediately." Mr. Speaker, I would like to lend strong support to this petition. While we have seen upgrading of our roads, and an increase in the volume of traffic, it seems to me that we have seen a deterioration 1 1 1

March 3, 1980, Tape 40, Page 3 -- apb MR. BENNETT: of the s.ervices that must be upgraded instead of downgraded. As this petition states,'we have broken-down equipment'. This seems to be the case in many areas, not only in the Plum Point area. Ten years ago, Mr. Speaker, when a storm was brewing, graders were alerted and graders rolled out on the highoads to make sure the people got through. Today, Mr. Speaker, the reverse seems to be true.

Co ·nsequently, the main roads become clogged with snow and as a result graders have to place emphasis on main roads and not get into the smaller 1 outlying communities on the byroads. It seems to me there should be more effort placed on snow clearing. A few nights ago, on the No~thern Peninsula, people stayed in their cars all night. This to me is an indication - with the present policy- that disaster lurks"when people are not safe to go over the highways at any hour, especially when emergencies do arise from time to time. Mr.

Speaker, in supporting this petition I ask that this petition be placed upon the table of the House of Assembly and directed to the department to which it relates. Thank you. 11 2

Ma.t'ch 3, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: (Simuls) Strait of Belle Isie. MR. E. ROBERTS : Tape U EC - 1 ~e hon. the member for the Mr. Speaker 1 if there is any member on the other side who wishes to speak, I would certainly - :r will oot give up my right to speak but :r would be quite prepared to stand back and let b.im or her, as the case may be, have a tuzn first if that is the wish of somebody over there. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) regret­ fully is not here. Mr friend from Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt) wishes to speak. If :r could speak after him, Sir, I would like to support the petition. MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER: Bay South. MR. J. BUTT: The member for Evergreen Village. The hon. the member for Conception Mr. Speaker, I ~ verl privileged now to stand here in this House to speak on behalf of the people of Conception Bay South - MR. NEARY: MR. J. SUTT: MR. NEARY: And Evergreen Village especially - and Eve~reen Village especially. - who have been calling me up night after night to have their road cleared. MR. BUTT: 18 t.'1 . SOME liON • ~MSERS : MR . ROBE .RTS : MR. J. BU'l"1' : in due tiJile , believe me. '- who gave me a vote of confidence on June Oh, oh! Try Ma.t'ch 3rd. We will take care of Evergreen Village Mr.

Speaker, :r was very fortunate to have an excellent campaign crew through those many volunteers who gave unselfishly of their time. I am truly grateful.. Their dedication and superb efforts played an important role in my victory. AN 30 N • ME MBER : MR. J. BUT"l': SOME !iON . ~lE.''IBSRS: What? This is the Address in Reply 1 is it not? Oh, on: 11 3

l1arch 3, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. J. BUTT: MR. SPEAKER: Tape 41 EC - 2 Order, please! I am very sorry. Order, please! We are speaking to tile petition presented by the hon. the member for St. Barbe (Mr. T. Bennett). You do not want to speak to that petition? MR. J. BUTT: I am very sorry. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E • ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I could only suggest that perhaps my friend from Conception Bay South (Mr. J. Butt), some of those volunteers,oould go to work in the Highways Department and clear the snow, because I would like to support the petition.

My friend from St. Barbe (Mr. T. Bennett) has spoken eloquently and effectively. Some of these petitioners are my constitutents and that is why my friend asked me to say a word to the people in Blue Cove and the contiguous and adjacent community of Pond Cove who find themselves in exactly the same position as do the people in Plum Point, Brig Bay and the col!llllunities in which live the people signatory to this petition. Sir, ·I simply want to say that it is unfortunate that the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) is not here today.

I have - I will not say 'never' - but I have very seldom, in the years I have been in this House, had more complaints than I have received the last four, five, six days about the quality and the quantity of the snow clearing services available to the people in my district. illow t!1e people in Blue Cove have over the last several months been in touch with me on a number of occasions because, of course, as my friend from St.

Ba..>"be South said, the large machine in the area has been out of service for at least three or four months now and repeated requests to ~~e Department of Transportation and Communications produced polite responses but no action. But over the last three or four days - I suspect 11 4

March 3' 1980 Tape 41 i::C - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS : it is a combination of two things, the weather has not co-operated with the department, but secondly, Sir, the men and the equipment that have been made available by the government to meet these needs have just been stretched almost to the breaking point and we are now seeing repeated failures of equipment; we are seeing men who are tired almost beyond endurance. The minister has now come and perhaps he could speak on it because we are fast getting to a very serious situation.

I would not say it is a crisis situation, but ~~e road to Cook's Harbour has been closed time and time again, c~ildren have lost a great amount of time at school, the equipment is being stretched beyond its working capacity and the men, I fear, are being stretched close to the point where they have reached ~~e limit of what ~~ey or any human can do. So I would say to the minister that we do have a serious situation developing now in Northern Newfoundland and in Sou~~ern Labrador. The minister - I did not see him, ~ut .

I gather .he was on television one day last wee.lt and said that he did no1: think things were so serious in Northern l'!ewfoundland, but he realized t.l1.ey were serious in the Southern Labrador portion of ~'le Province. .'\.ll that I can say is I must have had ~~irty telephone calls from constituents of mine who said they would like the minister to come to have a first hand look and they would come to him except that they could not get out their front driveways because of the snow. Now the severe weather is not anybody's fault.

The minister is not to blame for ~~at, but, Sir, he is responsillle for the efforts being made to cope with it. In supporting tnis petition, I would say - and I think my friend from St. Barbe (Mr. T.:Sennet"t:) would agree as \170uld my friend from Eagle River (Mr. E. Hiscock) - 11 5

)!arch 3, 1980 Tape NO. ~2 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: that we do need extra assistance, we need extra machines, we need extra men, to be made available in Northern Newfoundland and South .ern Labrador. The service that is now being made available is not tolerable, it is not acceptab~e and it has got to be improved. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Unless the hon. Leader of the opposition (Mr. Jamieson) has another petition to present. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: No. No. Motion 1. Motion, the hon.

Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Protection of Personal Privacy,• carried. (Bill No. 1) MR. ROBERTS: If I might suggest by agreement, there are eleven motions 1i! the government intend to call them then sobeit, bgt perhaps ;e couid do all eleven firs ·t readings by consent and have them done because then we could begi~ the Address in Reply,which I understand is their main order of business this day. MR. SPEAKER: SOME 50N . MEMBE.RS: !<!R . ROBERTS: MR. ~!A.~a'U.L: MR. 'd . ROWE: Is it agreed? Agreed. You can take them all as read if you wish. Maybe we can read them all.

We need.to read them into the record. On mot ion the following bills read a firs~ t:ime, ordered read a sec ond time on tomorrow . "1m Acl: Respecting The ?rotec1:ion of ?ersolllll Privacy ." (No. ll "l'>n Act Respecting Elections, COnt::::overted !:lecti.ons And Elect:ions Financin'<. ' 1 ~lo . 17) "An Act: Res!,J eci nq The ?:-eedom of rn..:ormation ." (Mo. 21 ) "~ Act To Amend The Ruman Righ>:s C.::de ." ('lo. l'?) 11 6

~l ar ch 3, 1980 Tape No. 42 GH-2 "An Act To Provide For Natural Areas In The Province To Be Set Aside For The Benefit, Education And Enjoyment Of Present And Future Generations In The Province." (No. 12) "An Act RP.specting The Establishment Of A Newfoundland And Labrador Arts Council." (No. 16) "An Act To Establish A Youth Advisory Council Of Newfoundland And Labrador." (No. 20) "An Act To Provide For An Advisory Council On The Status of Women." (No. 15) ".An .'l.ct To Protect The Environment Of The Province By Providing For Environmental Assessment." (No. 13) ~. SPEAKER: (Simms) "An Act Respecting Denturists.

" (No. 14) "An Act Respecting Dispensing Opticians." (No. 18) Order 1, Address and Reply. The han. the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. ~!EMBERS : ~- JANIESON: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, in beginning my remarks today let me hasten to correct an omission in the remarks that I made last Thursday when I failed in one of the traditional courtesies to extend ----· my compliments to the mover and seconder of this motion.

Both gentlemen did a very worthy job, and while we on this side may not have as much enthusiasm for the government's actions and records, nevertheles~ we commend the way in which they spoke and particularly the manner in which they made reference to the needs of their particular districts.

I think one of tpe real advantages of the Speech from the Throne debate or the debate on the Address in Reply, which is probably the more correct way of saying it, is that it does give members the chance, among other things, to be able to highlight perhaps what, in many instances, is the main reason for their being here, namely, to represent and to speak for a particular group of citizens who have sent them here as their elected representatives. So, I do compliment them even though neither of the gentlemen, unfortunately, is in the House at the present time. 11 7

:-la:-c!l 3, 1980 Tape No . 42 ::;H -3 ~!R. ROSERTS: Well, t:he member for Harbo ur ~fain (Mr . Doyle ) is here , he is just not in his seat. la . JAMIESON: Oh, I a1:1 sorry, he is not in his own seat. <orgive me, ! did not see him there. Mr. Speaker, ! have now had ehe oppor1: uni ty over ehe weekend to re-examine the Speech from the Throne and to go over ie in considerable detail and couple it ·W1t:h the commenes made by ~he ?remier L~ the brief session that foll owed the forma~ proceedings on Thursday .

Having done so, I can say to ::he !louse now that I real~y see no necessity or, indeed, no reason for changing :ny assessment: of the Speech from t:he Thro ne in that, to summarize, t:here is very litt:le new meat on a very old pile of bo nes in the sense that virtually everyl;hl:lg chat: -.ras said in one way or another can be discovered in var!ous Speeches from the Throne daeing back, indeed, to Wednesd .ay, March 1 of 1972. I do not: propose to belabour the House •..Jith long excerpts from those speec!'les.

I feel, however, that it is sig nificane and, I think, necessary for the laying of the kind of case thae I ~~t: co make for me to recall for hon. :nembers just exactly what thl.s government has been saying ever sinoe the first Throne Speech back on the first: of Ma .rch in 1972. 11 8

~!arch 3, 1980 Tape No. 43 D~l - 1 MR. D.

JAMIESON: Le.t me , for example,quote from that particular speech and see how relevant it is to what was said on Th~rsday by His Honour in words p.ut in his mouth, of course, as is always the case, by the government:· In 1971 this government said, •My government is primarily concerned with visualizing the kind of Newfoundland that is possible now and in the years ahead." It went on to say, "Reaching these goals requires looking ahead because what Newfoundlanders will be in,say 1 ten years will be determined by the quality of the decisions mad~ today and in the next few years".

Now that wa~ eight years ago, eight of those ten years have past and yet, Mr. Speaker, as we have seen,there certainly has not been any significant improvement. Quite the contrary: If one is looking at the measuring sticks that one can properly and legitimately employ, the rate Qf unemploymemt is substantially higher, the cost of living is infinitely higher and the public debt has so<;~.red beyond anything that anyone could ba ve contem.p lated bac.k in those days.

Btit let me again quote to demonstrate that there has been at the very least a consistency in this government's statement of its good intentions 1 as I referred to them on Thursday 1 and its failure to follow through on those intentions. For example, how many. lines were written and how much was reported over these past few days as if it were some brilliant burst of new insight that had come from the benches opposite about the upgrading of our raw materials in Newfoundland, as if this was something brand new which this government had deci¢1.ed upon and which was indeed quite creative and imaginative. 119

lt arc h 3, 1980 Tape No. 43 HR . D. JAHI£SON : Here is what they said in 1972 • "My govern,ment will immediately embark on a pro­ gramme to encourage the establishment of additional advanced re~processin~ facilities for fish within this P~ovince.

My government feels that there will be a great many new jobs created by the further processing of our fish products." 1972, You can paraphrase it i~ the Speech from the Throne of 1980, virtually the same thi:1g, the same pious hope, the Sa.l!le failure, I suggest by and large over those past seven or eight DW - 2 years to really turn things around in terms of upgrading our raw material.

I will have something to say in a moment as to why I think that these honest - and I am not saying that they were deliberately kind of misleading objectives but I think I can explain some of the reasons ~hy there has been such a consistent failure ·over all of this time. I wish there was time this afternoon for me to gc into a whole ser.ies of these quotes.I am only in 1972 yet.

But I will just quote one more point which says, "My government is very strong in its unqualified belief", and listen to this, "that the natural resources of this Province and the benefits to be derived therefrom are the birthright of my ~eople.

It is with such natural resources that our whole future rests." In other words,once again we see from the very outset an assertion of ownership of natural resources,and if I were to read the total quote you would see that I am talking both about onshore and offshore resources, Back in 1972 the same kinds of things were being said and yet no results of any great significance have occurred in the interim. 1 2 0

Marc h 3, 198 0 '!'a p e No . 43 DW - 3 l-!R. P. JAMIESON: Let me move o~ briefly to the second session- there were t•o 1you may recall 1in 1972. In this one,which was just a month or so later, the government said, "It is my government's responsibility to ensure that our social and economic setting is indeed the proper environ­ ment within which well planned development r~oqrammes can launch cur Province Lntc unprecede .ated prosperity for cur people•. I ask you to look ~t last Thursday's Speech from t~e Throne and you will find a virtually identical paragraph in that one as well.

So what we see is a whole sezias thrbugh- out of undoubtedly commendable goals and objectives and an almost absolute failure to make good en any of those com .mitt­ ments. move on to 1973. Very briefly, once again,I will Listen to this in 1973, "My government has underway an extensive resource development programme and this programme will be accelerated during the coming year so 1 21

:"1.a rc. h 3, 1990 Tap e No. 44 s: - 1 :·!~ . :! . J~UE SO~l: that resource development can, as quickly as possible, make the maximum contribution to the economy of O\U' Province and the well-being of our peop .1e~ 1 That, again, is very similar to what was said in the Speech the other day. And if that is not close enough,here is a quote ~~at almost one could say is left standing in print so that whenever ~'lis government brings out a Throne Speech all they have to do is trot out the paragraphs.

"This year will be the year o£ action and forward development of our natural resources together with further concentration and expansion of our rural development programme,. ·· So that that, ~.

Speaker was back on January 31st, 1973. ~ow, there are others here and for those who may wish to have ~~eir memor~es revived, I will be more than happy to provide for you the results of what was for me very painful research, I can assure you, in which I plowed through all of the previous Speeches from the Throne to see just how consistent, at least, t.'J.e government has been with regard to promising great things on the one hand and c-:eliver.ing virtually nothing of what it promised on the 'other.

That is the story, those are the facts of the case as indeed is =upported and borne out by every one of th .ose Throne Speeches . Now, Mr. Speaker, let me move more up to date and talk about something in the Throne Speech which, I must confess, I found extremely difficult to understand. Apart from all of the other th.i.ngs that I have already referred tc, there is talk in the Throne Speech of a White Paper on Fisheries as' if there was, in some way or other, a total confusion about fisheries. Well, Mr .

Speaker, if that is so, if that is the case, then this government must accept the responsibility for it because here we have it ~ Fish is the Future. When was it brought in- 1978, 1979? 1-IR. S. NEARY : In 1978, distributed to every household in Newfoundland by Saga Communications. 122

March 3, 1980 Tape No. 44 SD - 2 MR. D. JAl1IESON: Distributed to evert household in Newfoundland and let me illustrate what it says over a smiling portrait of the late departed, in terms of this House, Mr. ~lalter Carter, this document says t..'lis, "I hope I may be pardoned or at least understood if I express my personal pride, delight and excitement," - excitement! - "over the development programme for the fishing industry." And t..'len he goes on to say 1 "I am proud not only of the wo:dt accomplishment but also of the personnel responsible for it", and so on. 1\nd look at this, Mr.

Speaker, out of the mouths of those who cr;eated it,11 The complete regional development strategy is a one thousand pac;e report contained in six volumes. The co111pilers called it ~etting A Course and this title was not only appropriate but prophetic!' Mr. Speaker, prophetic! SOME HON. ME!1BERS : Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: Poe~ prophets ~IS • D. JAMIESON: The only thing I can say is that the¥ either lost tr..e chart or the compas:; was =ompletely out of whack - MR. S. NEARY: They misspelled a word. MR. D. J.ll.MIESOri: - and there may l:e a misspelled •NOrd in there as well.

But in any event, my point is that here less than two years ago we had a thousand page docUir.ent toiled do'-!n to a very s~>ecific kind of strategy for Fisheries and if that is not a "White Pa~?Er" or t.'le et;<uivalent of a ~Jr..it.e Paper 1 indeed it goes beyond a ~1hi te Paper because it purports to be, at least, the representations and the result of a whole series of meetings with a whole series of people on a whole series of subjects and it co<rers them all. So, 1-!r.

Speaker, to now talk about a White Paper on Fisheries strikes me as being the JllOSt inexplicable of all of the comrnittments, if that is the correct •.rorrl for it, in the Throne Speech. Now, if that 'i>-ere not enough, I refer hon. rnel!'.bers to the Budget for 1979. Again, 1 2 3

>!arc.~ 3, 1980 Tape ~o. 44 SD - 3 ~1R. D, J;o.MIESON: not so far hac!:: t..'lat many people wi~l have forgotten it,although~you know,governments are mercifully spared because people have short memories, including, in fact, on many occasions, people in. this House. But here in the Budget of 1978 presented by hon. T. Alec EUckrnan, who I presume it is not offensive to his new dignity to mention, on Friday, March 17th, St. Patrick's Day, a beautiful day to do it, he comes out with, "The Budget Supl'lement is designed to show the way ahead for the ~~ewfoundland ec::or-nmv over the next five to ten years:' And, Mr.

Speaker, there are hundre~s upon hundreds of pages which spell out in very precise form the strategy for a variety of key and particularly resource industries. Now here you ·have a blueprint for five to t.en years, Fish is t..'J.e Future in terms of a 1 2 4

~larch 3, 1980 Tape No. 45 EL - 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: comprehensive statement and all of the quotes that I have given from various and previous Speeches from the Throne,and then if you look at this year's Speech from the Throne it is as if none of this has happened It is as if there had been a veil drawn and indeed we were,in a sense, starting off from scratch 1 because that is what the government appears to be doing. Now, Mr.

Speaker, since my time is limited and I hope that I can complete my remarks within the norFally allottedtime here this afternoon, I want to say that it is not through any lack of enthusiasm for the bills that were in the Throne Speech that I will not make any direct teference to them. I think ~st of them are quite effective and probably will be very useful, ~I. Speaker, and we will get, undoubtedly, to debating those in a very short time.

I do, however, now want to talk about . the emphasis which ~~e Speech from the Throne and various other state­ ments by memb~rs opposite have touched upon recently with regard to resource development, because the centrepiece, clearly, of what has been said not only here but also in terms of speeches and various interviews which ministers have given,have all been on resou~ces.

And ~ay I say without being in any sense confrontational here myself, and without in any way wanting to be argumentative in what I am saying, that I believe that the people of this province along with me and along with members on this side-and I get the feeling in many organizations and in ~ny groups with whom I meet, I get the feeling that the concern that I am expressing is the same one which Newfoundlanders have 1 and that is that throughout this speech, intentionally or otherwise, there is a general theme of confrontation.

Wherever one looks in terms of key categories or key sectors of the Newfoundland economy, there is a thrust which suggests that we are embarking upon a period in which we are going 1 2 5

March 3, 1980 Tape no. 45 EL -2 MR. D. JAMIESON: to be, in a sense, ~eflecting,or the government and perhaps the Premier is going to be posing as or present­ ing himself as the toughest man on the block type of thing.

Now, if you look at the issues, and I am doing this without passing judgement on the merits of the issues themselves, if you look at oil and gas, there is clearly,and has been for some time, a confrontational atmosphere, and by the way not only with the government of Canada, whether it be Liberal or Tory, but also as we are seeing increasingly, there has been and is going to be 3till greater confrontation with industry,not to mention confrontation with various labor groups and particularly with people in the fishing industry who have very deep-seated concerns.

So that is one area in which confrontation seems to be the keynote of what we are likely to see in the immediate future.

Then if you go on to the fishery, well nothing, nothing could be more demonstrative of this confrontation­ al approach than when the Premier of the province has to rise in his place in this House and say that a gove~ent of his own persuasion in ottawa had acted against the interests of Newfoundland in the most fundamental way possible, That was not us saying that, that was not Tories saying it about Liberals or Grits saying it about Tories: t~ was the Premier of this province talking about the then government of Canada.

And so that front as well as on many more I have no doubt that all of the negotiating skills and the diplomacy of the new Minister of Fisheries are going to be needed if we are not going to have a continuing series of confrontations. On hydro, we have heard also clearly - and again, remember I said I am not passing judgement on the issue~ 1 I hope I will get to that in a moment.

I am merely pointing out what is ahead of us- whether it be right or whether it be wrong, we have already the argument with the province of Quebec to which not only has reference been made by the Premier but also by the Minister of Mines and Energy; we have thro ·/'oole issue, I suppose,of the Lo,,·o~ Churchill and just what implications for confrontation there are there I have no idea, but ce~tainly it is another region, another sector,in which we are going to 1 2 6

:-larch 3, 1980 Tape No. 45 RA-3 MR. D. JA!HESON : be at daggers drawn with someone for a very considerable time to come. I will not touch upon others that certainly 1 2 7

March 3, 1980, Tape 46, Page 1 -- apb MR. JAMIESON: could be used as examples because, again, I want to use my time as well as I possibly can 1 and I will not go into the specifics of these because my colleagues will be doing that during the Throne Speech debate.

Now having said that I was setting aside, a moment ago, the merits or otherwise of these particular sources of potential confrontation, let me go on to say that having reread the Throne Speech, having looked at this voluminous supply of items here in which various commitments of one kind or another have been made, that one would be hard pressed, very hard pressed to say that we could disagree in principle with any of the goals or the objectives that have oeen out­ lined. There may be a nuance hereandthere, but it is fundamentally the objective of getting a better deal on the Upper Churchill.

That is a perfectly defensible objective. The objective of getting a better·return for our hydro in terms of various industrial users in Newfoundland, that is a perfectly defensible objective. The emphasis on getting a maximum return to Newfoundland from its resources; again, a very commendable objective and we find no fault. I personally commend anyone who says,'This is the direction in which I wish to go'. But since they have been saying most of it since 1972, since they have been saying it for eight years, then surely it is legitimate to ask, 'Why has not more happened?' Why has it not happened?

Was John Crosbie just bluffing when he said that the power was going to be on from the Lower Churchill in 1969? Was he bluffing? That is to attribute the basest of motives. I suspect he was not. Were the various authors of these documents that I have quoted, were they all saying, 'This is a con job,deliberate?' Again, I do not attribute those kinds of motives. I believe that people by an large, whoever 1 2 8

March 3, 1980, Tape 46, Page 2 -- apb MR. JAMIESON: was there, whoever was on this side, were genuine in saying, 'We have to settle this Upper Churchill.' Or, 'we have to get more out of ERCO'. But I think in trying to to analyse why there has been so much talk and so little really significant action, you have to come down to the fact, Mr. Speaker, that sabre rattling by itself is not enough. Now I know that there are times when you have to rattle sabres, there are many occasions when I am perfectly happy to do it myself, but sabre rattling by itself soon reveals itself for what it is, an empty gesture.

And if you have a problem of the nature that I have been outlining, it seems to me there are only three ways in which human beings, short of war, have been able to resolve their problems; either legislative competence - in the first instance there are certain things in which this House is sovereign. Presumably there are limitations, but we will not bother to get into the subtleties of that in terms of the use of certain parts of the British North America Act and the like, but fundamentally there are things which this House can do.

If the government wishes to legislate in some of these problem areas they can do it . That is one way. The second way, if in fact its actions are circumscribed by its limited authority, is by having a good legal case, by putting together the best possible legal case. And I am not going to venture into the quicksands of arguing on Upper Chruchill and the like what is a good legal case, I will leave that for my learned friends in this House, but if you have a good legal case you can proceed in that way. That is the second way. 129

March 3, 1980, Tape 46, Page 3 -- apb MR. JAMIESON: The third, and so far as I am concerned I know of po others, the only other way in which you can proceed is oy way of mutual agreement through negotiation. Now if there is any other way to go on any major area of confrontation, I do not know what it is. Otherwise, unless you analyze these three and decide which of them you are going to use, then all you will have will oe the sabre rattling. And you know tho .se nine or ten Speeches fro~ the Throne have mo~e sabres in them than were carried by the troops at Balaklava. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Elea r, hear : MR.

JAMIE .SON: There has been a series of sabre rattling from beginning to end. So I want to go now then, and I want to say as a

preamble to this that when I talk about offshore oil and gas I am doing so in absolutely a questioning manner. I am doing 'it to the maximum extent that any human can in terms of an open mind, but against the principle 130

March 3, 1980 Tape No. 47 DW - l MR. D. JAMIESON: which I reflected in my comments the other day and which the Premier supported of saying in effect that we want to maximize the benefits for this Province. Now it is such a big subject that it is very hard, first of all, to know where to start,and once having started it is very hard to know whether you would actually be able to conclude i~ not in one hour, but in a dozen hours. And that is why, Mr. Speaker, I want to ~ appeal very strongly and in totally non-partisan fashion to the members opposite to support the motion of my hon. friend for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) toda~ or some version thereof - we are not splitting hairs over words - but a standing committee to examine all aspects of oil and gas. And I want to tell the House in, as I said, I hope in a non-controversisal way why I think that is necessary. First of all, I would like to begin with a quote which is a particular favourite of mine and which I commend to the Premier,because any man who carries the heavy burdens of office always has to bear it in mind..

And that is," The essense of tyranny is the denial of complexity." For any of us, and I do not exclude members on this side,to tell the public of this Province or to tell Canadians or indeed to tell anyone that something is simple when it is not is tyrannical in the extreme. We are on the edge,it seems to me,and once again I make no exclusions of falling into the trap of conveying to the people of Newfoundland that there is some simple, uncomplicated 1 rapid solution to this whole terribly complicated issue.

If we have this committee - and incidentally I said the other day and I repeat now that if r.here are certain aspects of it which should be 1 31

:1a::ch 3, 198 0 ?4pe No . 47 DW - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: considered in camera then we would not have any objection to that. Now let us look at what has come to be called,and I am baffled quite frankly by the use of these words, 'ownership, control, jurisdiction', all being used interchangeably and all meaning, I suggest, sub~tantially different things. MR. S. NEARY: And 'management' tossed in. MR. D. JAMIESON: And 'management' may be tossed in as a fourth word,but all being used interchangeably in that way.

So I emphasize that I am not quite sure-and I know the Premier said the other day th .a t, really I guess he said in a sense that we really should be sure but I am not sure, and I have searched and read through every conceiveable piece of literature that has been prepared on this subject, I am not sure what it is that is being sought. ·But, if I may, just to, pose, in a sense, a number of questions because of - you might even call it 'igno~anc~' and I will buy that. I am not prepared to represent myself as having all of the answers on this subject.

But it does seem to me that there are two ends to the spectrum if one is talking about offshore. One end, the far end, if you like 1 on the federal side is that it is wholly owned by the fed~ral government, that it is wholly developed by the federal government 1and for all practical purposes 1 except wher~ they wish to do so or where they may be some kind of overlap, miniature, a Small overlap,the whole thing becomes a federal proposition. That is one end of the spectrum.

The other end would be the exact opposite, that the whol' thing would be owned, the jurisdic­ tion, ~he management - co u~e my friend for Lapoile's (Mr. Neary) phrase - the whole thing would be in provincial hands. Those are the two ends. 132

March 3, 1980 Tape No. 47 DW - 3 :-tR. D. JAMIESON: Now everyone without exception has rejected both of those, everyone has. So that there- fore, it seems to me that we have to ask ourselves is against that principle of maximizing benefits, against the principle of ensuring that we in Newfoundland have the paramountcy ,I believe is the word I used the other day, in terms of determining the social impact and all of the rest of it 1 where do we go from here? Now the Premier has been fond - and I do not fault him as a leader or a public figure for trying to reduce this complex issue to a simple phrase 133

March 3 , 19 80 Tape 48 MB - l MR. 0. JAMIESON : but it is again a phrase that tends to border on deception without really meaning to and that is to say­ and the Prime Minister of Canada was a little bit more circUIItSpect in his words-- to say as the Premier did the other day that it is the same as the trees, that we want the same kind of approach, the same treatment with regard to undersea resources as if they were trees on land.

Now it is a beautiful oversimplification because anybody who wants to believe it can do so and say,'Yes, that makes sense: But the analogy is faulty because, as the Hon. the Premier knows and I am sure the Minister of Mines and Energy knows, there are distinctions,there are differences, and if there is time I will be glad to go into some of them.

But let us set those aside, let us assume for purposes of this debate that it is the same thing 1 that if you are standing with your two feet on the ground in a stand of timber owned by the Government of Newfoundland, by the people of Newfoundland, on the West Coast of this Province, it is not a shred different than if you are in a dory on the Grand Banks,or better still that we have a drilling platform on the Grand Banks. Let us say for all practical purposes that is the situation .

It still does not mean either total management ,or jurisdiction, or control, because even with regard to the timber, even with regard to the mines, even wit.l1 regard to every• . one of the land based resources that this Province has and to which nobody denies them access and right and ownership, there is still an important Federal presence, and,therefore, we have to think in te:r1115 of what kind of a co-operative arrangement there is going to be.

Because, for instance, apart from everything else and without again venturing too deeply into the legalities of it in the sense of not being a lawyer, the fact of the · matter is,of course,that the trade and commerce power,by no words that I have been able to find uttered by anyone 1 is likely to be relinquished by any Federal Government and I do not care what particular stripe it is.

The trade and commerce power is a very, very comprehensive one apart from everything else, I suggest, unless I am wrong , and I am posing these as questions, I emphasize, because I believe that they are ~~e sorts of things we should be addressing in a 134

March 3, 1980 Tape 48 MB - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: Select Committee. Insofar as the trade and COI!IIIIerce power is concerned even if there was,I repeat,the same kind of ownership on the offshore as there is on land,it is sti~ not possible for the Government of Newfoundland or for this Legislature to do anything other than to bring that resource, whatever it is, ashore in Newfoundland. It cannot on its own move it either to another province , and most certainly it cannot more it overseas to the United States or anywhere else, :t"hat is fundamental, that is a fact of the matter.

Consequently, therefore, even if we accept the analogy of the same on land as under the water, the truth is that there is a very strong and a very real , and a very large federal presence. Now, I would like incidentally, since the furor over the federal election has disappeared, and I purposely,by the way, did not raise any of these issues during that time because I genuinely believe that this issue is so important for Newfoundland that we cannot play politics with it and I do net want to play politics with it.

And I went 1 l assure you all, and IllY colleagues want, to do everything we can to make sure that we benefit to the maximum degree -possible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. D. JAMIESON : But if you look at the Prime Minister Clark version and the Premier of Newfoundland' s version of the exchange of notes,you will find some very very significant differences which I suspect came even more to the fore in the private discussion they had during his visit to Newfoundland to which we were not privy.

But,you know,what has not been said, so far as I know up to now, is that there are immensely significant differences between the Premier of Newfoundland's letter to the then Prime Minister of Canada, and I guess he will be for the next fifteen minutes or so - MR. ROBERTS: MR. D. JAMIESON: written and the ' ~o. he is out noW. - immense differences between the letter 1 3 5

!•lar ch 3, 19 60 Tape No. 49 IB-l MR. JAMI ESON: reply which was returned. Let m·e just quote a couple to sh ·ow you. The Premier said, "Newfoundland should own the mineral resources of its Continental margin in the same manner as if those minerals were located in the onshore portion of th~ Province and should have the same legislative competence with respect thereto.• And then in brackets''(insofar as it is consistent with international iaw) :• That is the Premier's version.

The Prime Minister of Canada's version, considerably longer, says this, "The Province of Newfoundland should own the mineral xesources of the Continental margin off its coast insofar as Canada is entitled to exercise sovereign rights over these resources in accordance with international law." A pretty big significant difference.

That is number one. ·"S -uch ownership should be"- and here again inserted twice in the same par~graph but not in the Premier of Newfoundland'~ version -"should be to the extent possible of the same nature as if these resources were located within the ·boundaries of the Province.' ·'" The legislative jurisdicti .on of the Province should, to the extent possible, be the s·ame as for those resources within the boundaries of the Province.• Now clearly, even a layman like me can see that there is a massive difference.

So therefore since, as I said, the dust has now settled, ~hat is to the eternal credit, it seems to me, of the majority of the people of Newfoundland is that they never bought the one line that was put to them with regard to, we as Liberals were going to take it all away and the Tories were going to give it all up to us. That surely is the case. SOM E HON. MEMB ERS: :·tiL J A..' 'II E SON : Hear, hea r! Now J cou ld quoce oth er chang es buc I will lea ve it to one final one, the fo urth 136

~!arch 3, 198 0 Tape No. 49 IB-2 M ?. . JAMIESON: paragraph, very significant again. The Premier's letter to Prime Minister Clark,"Confirmntion of newfoundland's ownership of offshore minerals will be effected by the signing of an agreement between the two governments and the subsequent confirmation of that agreement by appropriate legislative action.• Full stop right there. that went to Prime Minister Clark. · That was the letter Mr.

Clark came back, "The above principles will be further confirmed and implemented by the signing of an agreement between the Government of Canada and the <lovernment of Newfoundland and by appropriate legislative actio~'- and where is the full stop? It is not there. change.• Because it goes on to say, •and constitutional Oh, the Minister of Mines and Energy shrugs as if to say, that is a mere incidental, we just happened to write that in.

It has been, I repeat, it has been really quite confusing for the public of this Province to have to believe that there was in fact agreement when I could go an to quote at least another dozen examples where the two versions depart trem•ndausly from one another. But, Mr. Speaker, let me go on to something that is even ·mare serious, it seems t;o me. Now, for all of the years that this offshore issue has been in E~ont of us, one of ~he most important things which advocates from Newfoundland- and,incidentally,no one should doubt the fact that I was and still am an advocate from Newfou .ndland - SOME BON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. JAMIES ON: - for all of those years and all of that time what was the fun dam ental principle underlying our case ? No w the re were othe rs. I will nat say this was 137

March 3, 1980 Tape No. 49 IB-2 i'lR . JAMIESON~ ~he single point, but the fundamental principle was that the Newfoundland situation was differe nt. Now that was a very key and important point. For the la wyers present and ~or those with a special interest 1you may reca~l that the reason was that having come in in 19 49 when the doctrine of the Continental Shelf had been established,we brought the ~be l£ in with us, therefore,ipso facto, if that is the legal expression, it was a part of Newfou ndland and the mere fact that it was not made direct refe rence to did not count. Now that was the case .

During this period, Mr. Speaker, we bad a situation where the courts ruled against British Columbia. They ruled against British Columbia . We had a situation in which the three Maritime ?rovinces concluded that they were better off to make a deal with Ottawa rather ·than to go through the convoluted kind of constitutional route because the weakness of their case was pretty clear in their lllinds. Now Newfoundland was in a di=fe re nt position and th e Newfoundland government, that gov er nment over there, did the right thing,in my opin ion, 138

:.:arc h 3, 19SO Tape No. 50 SD - l :·1R . !:l . J il~-!IE S ON : back six o·r seven years ago when it tried to begin the process of putting together a Newfoundland unique case for presentation to the Supreme Court of Canada. V.'bat did l~r. Clark do? No reference,remember,to any of this in t.'le Premier's letter to Mr. Clark, none of this. Mr.

Clark, however , in his response said, "~lewfotmdland feelings on offshore have flowed from its history" • No quarrel wit.l-J that, I just explained vlhy, But he said, "i!.t the same, however, I wish to confirm that the Government of Canada is prepared to see these principles applied to the resolution of the offshore issue with all provinces concerned".

He then went on to say, "All Premiers are interested and will in due time have to deal with it in col)stitutional discussion", Now, that has never been made public in the sense that the media have taken it fully and put it out and demonstrated to t;he people what was saicl.. We have got, 1 Clark says yes to Newfoundland: that is what we got. Now, you come to the next paragraph. 'It will be necessary at some stage;• Mr. Speaker, II for representative of adjoining provinces to get together with federal representatives to detennine mineral resource de limitation" and so on.

Then he goes on to say, "Proposals for constitutional change will, of course, need to be considered at an appropriate time", and I want to emphasi~e t."lese wrds and they are underlined;lby all gove=ments together in the context of the continuing comm ittee of ministers on the Constitution." Nrn. !ir. Speaker, clearly and without doubt what has harpened, or what would have happened, let me put it that way, and what may nm; very well happen, I do not know, is t."lat t.~e best case for provincial ownership or control or jurisdiction, the best case under this is lumped in with the worst because 1 3 9

:·!a::ch 3, 1980 Tape No. SO so - 2 liR. ::>. JJI~IISS ON : BC has alrea~y lost, three provinces have signed. Newfoundland was in that unique position, but if this technique was employed it would mean not only would we have to wait around for all ten to get together,but I p;resume that without the constitutional kind of an amendment, and perhaps my learned colleagues here present here will have something to say about this at the appropriate tL~e. without that, }~.Speaker, 'ATe can not get anywhere and there would have been no agreement.

It really has been, I repeat, a most spurious kind of arg1lll!ent and what I want to see is a select Committee not to argue with whether the &!le.mbers opposite have a different approach or any~~ing of that sort 1but I would like-and not just in answer to a question in t.loJ.e House which is truncated and which leaves more queries than it answers - but to have to cpportuni ty 1 and I will give a personal committment to any minister or any official who comes before us that it will not be any kind of a stupid witch hunt, it will not be anything of that kind, it will be a thorough reasoned assessment and asking about some of these issues. basic 1decent,honest questions Now, what is the situation?

I have to ask it when I know people like Dr. Eugene Forsey, an intimate ,personal friend of mine, a Newfoundlander, when I know high r~~ing representatives of the Harvard School which I belive the hen.

Minister of 1·1ines and Resources knows something about, and some others 1 I have to be impressed when, during my years in External Affairs, international lawyer after international lawyer, in terms of the two hundred oile limit when it was being discussed, made the case tc me repeatedly that the Newfoundland arg~~nt was a strong one and made the case to me tha ·t we had nothing to lose by at the very least finding out,~ecause, and I am not he!"e now again arguing, I am quoting to ¥OU what learnec, 140

~!arch 3, l9SO ':"ape ~io. SO so - 3 :·:..~ . ::>. .J.~_'f!ESC~: ir.t .ernationall1 lea..TJled oeople ~ave saic to me,that !! you lose even on a refer:ed reference you still have the political solution to fall back on , you still have the ~ego~tec settle~~nt to fall bacY. on.

It may take longer, it C'.ay be a :nore comple:< one,but it is the only ~'line; t::tac in ':."le long r-.u: is goi:.g to se'ttle t.'l.e issue cnce and for all. t-:ow, I emphasize that I say to her.. meml::ers opposice,and particularly to those who 3Ie invol·;ed, t!la t it seems to 04! t.'lat we ought to have t.ie ::i.c;ht: to ';now · .. ny af ter spending - . .,hat waz it 1 tile hon. me.."1ber for La.Poile (Mr.

Neary) $60?000, SSO,OOO? ~:.!' . • S • ::EARY : No, half a million, almost S600,000. :~ .R. 0 . .r....: ·!ESOI'i: I was thinking ~erhaps about: ?a~ents to only one ?erson but in any event we.have spent an enol:'l!'iOus C!J!!Ount of money - . .,hatevnr it is - prepati:1c; th.is case , ! :<now it was a lot . So why , why then, is it abanconec? Cn t..'le basis of wila;; was, I believe, in t.::le t'linds of ll'L'1Y , many people, non -partisa11s , a fault/ kind of mechanisrr. 1:!1ich was l::eing ?ropcsed . ilnc incidently, let :ne Sa/ it may have l::een wit..'l the bes::: o: in ten:::ions.

I arn not going to arg\!e that whatever. I al:l not go~ng to say ':.~at the re was an1~ing frauc3len~ or ~hony about it, I am si~ply saying ~at: = t.~lnk like a great many other t.~inqs done by the government which tocay is out of office in O~ta wa, t.~ey jest simply did not think ~~~ough , 141

~larch 3, 1960 Tape No. 51 RA-1 MR. D. JAMIESON: what it was that they were saying and what they were doing and it was only after the commitment was made that they began to discover where the holes were in it and that is when the fur began to fly between them and hen. members opposite. Now, I have said so mush on this subject,but let me just pose a couple of other questions.

As I read the regulations 1 and as I read the guidelines and procedures issued, I pre­ sume, yes, 1978 on the petroleum regulations,and I have waded through them at great length~ the question that is uppermost in my mind is let us say as we must begin from the proposition,and I gather from what has been said by the Premier and others it looks good, that we have a commercial find and that sometime within the next four to six months, someone is going to come and say 1 "Mr. Premier or Mr. Minister of Mines'' or perhaps they will even have a conclave of all the l!linisters.we got it".

Now, at that point,as I understand it,you transfer from being a permitee on an exploratory basis to be a lessee. It is at that stage 1 as I understand it 1 that that happens. I am not sure precisely the technique but you must go that route. Now, MR. NEARY: MR. OON .JAMIE~ MR. NEARY: MR. D. Jk~IESON: You have to make an application You make an application. - before you go into production. That is right 1 be€ore you go into production; that is what I mean.

Now then, we know that it is hundreds of millions of dollars 1 perhaps billions of dollars if you listen to many of the industry spokesmen from whom we have heard. What is it ? and I really ask the question in the most sincere way I know how, What is it that is going ta insure that those people will be prepared to spend that money? Is it going to be

an act of parli~~t? Let us say that the current government said·, " No, quarrel.ile will go with this". I question very much,and,incidentally, I do not just question on the basis of my own assumptions, I question on the basis of things that have been said to me by the industry and by some key spokesmen in tr.e industry, I question very much if that is going to be enough. I think that they 1 4 2

}'.arch 3, 1980 Tape No. 51 RA-2 MR. D. JAMI .f:SON: will know as every decent. and every ordinary person knows who has even rudimentary knowledge about parliamentary procedures ., that what parliament can do it can undo, unless it goes beyond into the constitutional route or there is some other kind of mechanism in place. And so consequently I believe it important that this standing committee sit down and say 1 '" Look here, now, here is Mr. Hibernia and here is Mr. }C~bil and here is that oil and we want to get going, " Now, what is the arrangereent?

We know by the Throne Speech itself which says the constitutional process is prolonged, we know that, we did not have to have the Throne Speech to tell us 1but we did. Consequently therefore, Mr. Minister of Energy Mines and Resources 1 Mr. Premier anyone who wishes to say so, what is it, because I suggest that that is the point at which the crunch is going to come, that is the point. And I can assure you that it would not have been enough to say to Mr. Hibernia, " well,I have this letter from Mr. Clark," anymore than it is going to be enough to say " I have that letter from Mr.

Trudeau 1or from whoever the new Minister of Energy may be" .They are going to say quite literally~:i:t is not worth the paper it is written on~ Now, something else that has never been said publicly to the best of my knowledge but which ought to be said is,of course, that despite all of this talk of recent times Mr. Speaker, what has gone on off the coast of Newfoundland, What has gone on in the Beaufort Sea has not been because of these regulations-they had a

part in it and I commend those regulations they are good regulations. It has gone on because of two things: One was the exchange of letters between the then Minister of Mines and Energy of Newfoundland,who is now the Premier,and the then Minister of Energy Mines and Resources which have made for what might be described as a modus operandi for handling these matters. There is such and exchange of letters and there is no good reason,to the best of my knowledge,why they should not be made public. I am not asking now,but I am saying that a standing committee could lock at.

The second was the depletion allowance, the super depletion allowance. If it had not been for the five cent dollars and the fact as we all know that under that super depletion 1whether it was good bad or indifferent 1 and there were those including the for.mer }C~nister of Finance 1 Mr. Crosbie,who were prepared to cut it, 1 4 3

Ma!!'ch 3, 1980 Tape No. 51 RA-3 MR. D. l1.AMIESON: by the way, prepared to cut it, that super depleeion resulted in what was COlDDIOnly referred to as five cent dollars and in fact you could dig a dry hole and it you could probably turn out to make a dollar on it even though it produced nothing whatever. So while these regulations are very good 1 and while I have no quarrel,.

I repeat, with most of them- I want to ask a lot of questions about them. but the truth of the matter is that we have seen this activity for those reasons as well as 1 and one has to give credit where credit is due1that I think that the government of Newfoundland has done extremely well in terms of its consultation process and the like up to now • I sense , however, that we are getting awfully close; perhaps the Premier was eluding to it among other things the other day when he talked about the day not being to far off when the crunch is going to come and I suspect that it may well come 144

March 3, 1980 Ta