PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House cf Ass~~bly For the Period: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. February 9~ 1977

February 9 , 1977 The House met at 3:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in The Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape No. 142 PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of fifteen fishermen, these are inshore fishermen who live in the town of Chance Cove in Trinity Bay. The prayer of this petition, ~r. Speaker, is along NM- 1 the following lines.

"We the undersigned,members of the Newfoundland Fish, Food and Allied Workers are seeking legislation in this session of the House of Assembly, giving compensation benefits for fishermen equal to other workers, perhaps equal to offshore fishermen~ 1 They go on to say, "that lve feel that we are one of the main primary producers in this Province," and that thev have been discriminated against lon~ enough. As I said, Mr.

Speaker, this petition is signed by fifteen inshore fishermen who live in the tm-m of Chance Cove, Trinity Bay, The Minister of Fisheries is not here at the ~resent moment, but a meeting lvas scheduled to be held in the Hhitbourne area to - one of these regional meetings - to get questions from fishermen from the various communities in the Trinity Bay area. And I have no doubt that when that meeting is held, the meeting was cancelled or postponed because of a storm a couple of weeks ago ,when the ~-tlnister of Fisheries plans to reschedule this meeting I am not aware of yet.

However, I am sure that when this meeting is held that these same fishermen will be there with questions,of course,pertaining to Workmen's Comnensation to inshore fishermen~among other things. I assume that that meeting will be cornin~ up in the Hhithourne area in the verv near future and I dare sav an announcement will be forthcornin~ by the Minister of Transportation t.to

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 142 NM- 2 MR. CALlAN: and Communications regarding that matter. He ~de the ~nnouncement ~I think,regarding the latest one at Bonavista. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition and ask that it be referred to the denartment to whicl: it relates. MR. SPEAKER : The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented by the member for Bellevue on behalf of fifteen of his constituents in Chance Cove.

I might noint out, Sir, in supporting the petition that one of the great oroblems -incidentally, for the benefit of members, there is already a plan which includes the inshore fishery, the longliner fishermen and so forth. But one of the big problems, Sir, one of the big headaches that Workmen's Compensation have in a number of enouiries that I have made in the last year or so with the Workmen's Compensation Board,is that the inshore fishermen will not participate in the plan. They will not pay their contributions. And it is rather unfortunate because I am aHare, Mr.

Speaker, of one or two accidents that nrrnT"~rl. One in my own district, down in Margaree,where the longliner peoolP. did not pay the Workmen's Compensation, although I understand from my enquiries I made to the Board that they were still entitled to benefits, that one of the men had his arm torn off in a winch.Andeven that, Sir, w·as not cnough.,I do not think, to make the skinners and the cremnen conscious of the fact that this was a very, very important service that they had and they were not rc:tllv taking advantage of it.

I do not know if it applies to the tvpe of fishermen my han. friend is talking about, the thirtv. thirty-five foot hoats or not. T believe it does. -ePrhal'S tho ministf'r can te11 us. nut T hr.1ieve the 4 1 1.

February 9, 1976 Tape 143 IB-1 NR. NEARY: amendments that were made to the Wor~~eds Compensation Act a couple of years ago include all inshore fishe~en. But the trouble is, Sir, the problem is that they are not taking advantage of the privilege that has been given them under the Workme~s Compensation Act. Nevertheless having said that, r~r. Speaker, I support the petition. I think that every worker should be covered by workmens _compensation. I do not kno"to! how you can overcoJTle the problems of collecting the contributions from the skipperJllen and from the crew members of the boat.

But it is a big problem, Sir, and I discussed it a couple of times with the Workmen~ Compensation people and they tell me that they are only collecting a very, very small, a minute, a very, very small percentage of the contributions that they should be collecting from the inshore fishermen. So, Sir, it gives me great ple~sure to support the petition. I hope something can be rvorkec'l out to improve the programme. :MP.. SPEA.T<ET' : Are there any further petitions? PFESENTTI~G REPOnTS BY STANDING A."'D SPECIJ.L Cm'J'!TTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~finister of Justice. MR. HICIQAJ\N: ~r.

Speaker, I table the following regulations: The Legal Aid Regulations;Private Investigators and Security Guards. No. 27. Re2ulations. 1974:

Summary Jurisdi~tion (Traffic Ticker) Regulations as amended; the The Securities Regulations and the Notor Carrier Regulations, 1976. MF .• SPEAKEr: Before procee~ing to the next routine order, the Leader of the Opposition posed the point a couple of days ago with respect to the t~blinp. of material ~~en it is required by the Statutes that it he tabled, whether in fact it would be necessary for an hon. minister to make ;~ ve>rhal presentntjon in doing so. As I understand lt~it Hou]d not be necessary. The requirement of tabling could he fulfillecl h.y rjving the material to one of the officers of the House.

Of course thf'n hon. members would not automatjcally knm·! what had been tabled. Thev would not necessarily I 1 'l ·t

February 9, 1977 Tape 143 IB-2 MF • SPEAKE'P: automatically know because there would be no verbal reference to it. MR. ROBERTS: ~"P... SPEAKER: It could be distributed. Yes .,it could be distributed. Now there are a number of things tabled "t-rhich are not necessarily distributed unless sot!'ebody wants thelJl, unless somebody ·requests them. MR.. ROBERTS : Mr.

Speaker, could a list be perhaps placed in each day's Ransar~ saying the following - vre v•ill come to it ~.yj_ th ansvrers in due course - the follmving orders have been deposited with the Clerk of the House, and a member then could - I arn not even sure 'lil'e need to distrj_bute it because with these regulations now, in due course the Pages 'tdll bring them around and most of them will end up on the floor. It is a waste of photostat paper at a dime a sheet.

It is a waste of that. l\'ould it not be better really to deposit them with three or four copies,and if any member wants them - maybe one could go to each group and then if any member wants them he could send a note to the Clerk and the Clerk could arrange to send them. MR. SPEAKER: It could be done that way and certainly lists 'tvould appear in Hansard of 'tvhat had been tabled. MR. NOLAN: ~. ROBERTS: HP. SPF..AKER: ~'ay I ask, ~r. Speaker, if copies go to the press? Yes ,of course.

Yes. 't-fR .• NOLAN: But I mean if 'tve are not going to distribute them to each member of the House, I still think they should definitely, everything, go to the press. }'P . • SPEAKEP: Fverything is certainly available to the press. I believe at times things are distributed, you knm,•, by laws and that which could well be the press may not Hant,but once they are tabled, it is certainly public. It is certainly av;~ilable. The bon. ~inister of Finance. Hould that inclucc mnterial such ns Spcdnl Harrants and other statutnrv i tcms? I mP:m, ~·hf're clo vou dr:lw the ] ine nnd

February 9, 1977 Tape 143 MR. DOODY: who has the c'liscretion to decide? I mean,some of these tl~. ings are obviously of great interest and importance to the House. · _!W. NOLA.~: Surely doc~ents of the Itouse of Assembly should be available to the press. IB-3 MR. DOODY: I am not talking about the press. I am passing these things to you rather than officially tabling them and bringing them to the attention of the Rouse.

February 9, 1977 Tape no. 144 Page 1 - mw Mr. Speaker. Evervthing when it is labled is availahle to the oress. }!R. DOODY: I am sorry, Sir. I do not think I am making myself clear. I ~.:as thinking about the tabling of Special warrants. Can that be done by passing it to a member of the House, or should it be done formally tvithin the House? I mean these are valid points. MR. ROBERTS: The Speaker says it can be done. MR. SPEAKER: It could technically be done and fulfill the requirement of being tabled without a verbal reference. It could I technically be done that way.

Therefore, the option would appear to depend upon the person tabling it. MR. DOODY: Oh, I am sorry. TI1en I could pass the Auditor General's Report, the Public Accounts, Special Warrants and all these into the Clerk of the House, and there would be no form of - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - MR. DOODY: It is okay with me. I am not complaining. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously there is a dissension over this matter, Sir, and the only way to straighten it out, in my opinion, is to set up a Committee of the House, and go over it.

No, you can do it in a matter of two or three days. Go over all the things that have to be tabled, and throw out the trash, and everything else then after that has to be tabled. That is the only sensible way to do it. Otherwise, Sir, we are going to have cover·ups. We are going to have the government sneaking things into the House. MR. MURPHY: Assassination. MR. NEARY: No, no, Sir. No, this is true. We just had an example of it from the Minister of Finance. HR. HURPFY: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~

February 9, 1977 Tape no. 144 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that either we stick to the tradition, Sir, of announcing the things that are going to be laid on the table of the House or we draw up a new list of things to be tabled and throw out the trash. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! The point as it now is is that there is no rule which would preclude a minister fulfilling the requirement to table if in fact he tabled without a verbal reference.

Andthe further suggestion that the identification of anything tabled should appear in Hansard is certainly a valid one, and should be done. ORAL QUESTIONS: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. }IR.. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, my question is one which grows out of the Auditor General's Report, specially at this pciut, page 87, paragraph 15 which is headed, "No authority to enter into an agreement." And I think the first question - I have a number of supplementaries here - should be directed perhaps to the Minister of Tourism.

Could the minister tell the House, Sir, what action has been taken to discipline the official, who is not named or identified, · the senior official who saw fit to sign a contract for $6,000 without, apparently, according to the Auditor General, any approval for the entering into that contract having been given by either the Lieutenant-Governor in Council or by the minister? }1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, I have not taken any disciplinary action, because I am not exactly aware of just what the situation is. I have asked my officials for an explanation.

When I get that I willr detennine just \oJhat the situation is, and if any action is necessary. HR. ROBERTS: A suppl ementary.

February 9, 1977 Tape no. 144 Page 3 - mw NR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Is the minister accordingly indicating by his answer that the first he was aware of this situation was yesterday or the day before,or whenever it was that he first became aware of the Auditor General's Report upon the Public Accounts of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HICKEY: As regards to the amount in question, I think where the Auditor General says,"$2,000 was paid for the engaging of a person to do some· speci&l writing," that is my first knowledge of that particular situation.

I can say, Mr. Speaker, that the matter of entering into contracts has been a subject for discussion in my department on a number of occasions. And there are certain situations which preclude contracts for certain services. When I get the information I will be glail to make a more clear statement as to what those areas are. And I can say, however, that it is of concern to my officials.

They have expressed concern to me on a number .of occasions~ . that real~v it is a technicality within the act, and in fact there is a ·request, I think, at the moment to have the act amended to ~uthorize certain officials and certainly myself to enter into contracts for limited amounts without the authorization bf the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. MR. ROBERTS.: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. !. 1 ,., t I

Behruary 9,1977 Tape 145 AH-1 ~tR. ROBf.RTS : I shall not get into debate because I am not allowed, but the ~!inister reprettahlv failed to answer my question. May I ask then accordingly what-he did not tell us T...rhen he became mvare of the situation,whether it was vesterday or earlier-may I ask then t,vhat steps he has taken to ensure that this does not happen again, a situation where a senior official, by the minister's mm admisslon unlawfully, improperly enters into agrce: ·,:.ents, contracts under which half of $2nno ~•as paid out? The hon. minister. HR. HICKEY: i\pproximately a month and a half ago, Hr.

Speaker, the matter came to my attention in relation to the Auditor General's preliminary or draft comments '1-!hich mny or may not be included in the report. And my officials hrought the matter to my attention, again, as I said, this having been a number of occasions as regards to this problem. I became a>..rare t~en that on certain occasions th:!.~ kind of situation had been done or this ~ind of agreement had been entered into. ~at necessarily a contract, Hr. Speaker, but authorization to provide a particular form of service llithout necessarily a fullfledged contract, and or >vithout- UR.

ROBERTS: It does not have to be in writing. h'R. J-1ICKE~r: Yes, and/ or Hithout necessarily approval of myself or my colleagues. for my staff at that particular time this situation was not to be continued, and that we would have to look at the whole area to see if it could be sorted 9ut. If it meant amendinf, tha Act I '·JOuld have to tal:e that to my collea1!ues and obtain approval. This has not been done up to nm.;r. And the best I can say at this po~_nt is that there is a request, I am nuite sure, to the Justice Department asking for advise and a decision on this matter. W~. . SPF~KfP- : ,'1 supplementary.

HR. ROBfRTS: ~~r. Spea]rer, the Auditor General does not sav, so I must ash. the rd nis tcr, \uts .:mything done bv the individual \Hi t<"r concerned in return for tll0. :~2f)('i!) lvldch w:JS fl<lid to him, ilnd part of thilt -or r,ro\-ling out of th:1t, \vas more, if something in fact ~.;as done, Has more than $:!Min paid .1ftc>r thr C'nr\ of this fiscal year?

February 9,1977 MR. SPEAKER: 'ffi.. HICKEY: Tape 145 AH-2 The hon. minister. ~!r. Speaker, I certain! y do not want to say anything which is anything other than absolutely accurate. And as I said, I toTill certainly give a commitment to provide absolute details when I get the information. I can say however that the division involved is the Historic Resources Division,and I have no reason in the world to have any lack of confidence in the director there or the senior staff.

I am quite sure,and I will go out on a limh,as I said, although I do not have the detail, it am quite prerared to go out on a limb and say that certainly work has been done. I am absolutely sure that none of those people ~vould engage the services of a writer for the sake of doing so. HR. ROBERTS: HR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: One final supplementary. One final supplementary. Mr. Soeaker, the minister assures us that the Director of Historic Resources, whom I assume is the man who entered into this, the official \vho entered into this contract, would not enter into it speciously,and I accept that.

Could the minister tell us \vhy any offical, be it the director ar anybody else enters into a contract improperly and unlawfully contrary to legislative authority, Sir ? }ffi.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HICKEY: Hr.

Sreaker, I susoose this is not the time to enter into a debate, but . my hon. friend yesterday, you know,chided me for issuing a memorandum to my staff advising them of what the chain of command was that they \vere to report to, ''hat officials they were to report to.,and only after going throup;h the proper\and following the 1'roper chain of comm;md "t<Tould they anrronch me with norm<tl and ordinary decisions. That same memorandum , Hr.

Speaker, 'vas found to be necessarv,and brour,ht about hy the fact,this kind of situation for the simple reason that my department is not a old department. 1t is a reJ:-ttiv("'lv ne'v one . I -.muld sup:p:cst prohnhlv one of the lt t !l

February 9,19 77 Tape 145 AH-3 HR. HICKEY: newer ones in the administration. And a number of the l>eople , at least one, possibly t~-"O divisions, for the most

part carried on the business of promoting the province on their own, with very little direction from the minister or for that matter deputv mini~~er ~20

February 9, 1977 Tape 146 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir followed by the hon. gentlemen from LaPoile and Terra Nova. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the 1-Iinister of Public Works anc~ Services. I refer to the Auditor General's report page 111. I have a request relating to the first paragraph there, where the Auditor General reports on the mysterious company B having received work orders totalling 6 43 work orders. I t.;ran t to ask a question specifically about the 496 work orders with a total value of $779,056.

I am wondering first of all if the minister could indicate to the House what this particular project was? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public \-larks. MR. ROUSSEAU: I am very sure that my hon. friend and colleague from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir is not indicating that the minister misled the House yesterday when the minister in answer to a question from the bon. Leader of the Opposition suggested that when these things are in my hands,the whole part of the report~or statement will be made. Now one might ask, why did he not make it before?

The Auditor General writes the department prior to the compilation of the report, and the department writes back and we really do not know what is in the report until tole receive it. We do not know what he has changed because we give legitimate answers for it. So in effect what finally came out in the Auditor General's report yesterday, whatever was included or not included from the first draft that we were asked for comments on, I was not aware of.

There are a number of situations which occur in the Auditor General's report in respect to the Department of Public Works, and I would suggest respectfully to the Leader of the Opposition yesterday and to the member from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) that I would make a statement on all items contained with the departmental back-up for each of the sur,gestions made by the Auditor General. !. ') t t .... .

February 9, 1977 Tape 146 PK - 2 MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I can appreciate the minister's position except that this is a matter which is something that goes back eighteen months or so, and it is three-quarters of a million dollars. Certainly the minister must know what the project was,or is he indicating he does not know at this point? MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. ROUSSEAU: All the minister knows is that anything in the Auditor General's report is suggested for, the term I use is for the information of the House.

There is no suggestion there by the Auditor General, at least I do not read it as anyting being illegal, and anything worthy of comment at this time. MR. ROBERTS: He certainly makes some suggestions here. MR. ROUSSEAU: Well, you know, the Auditor General suggests many things, but very often, more often than not they are not suggestions of illegalities.

But I will say again to the member,and I will say to him with any other supplementary questions that when I am in a position to answer quite the few items that were:raised in respect to the Department of Public Works~! will do so in a full and complete statement because the time is not available in an answer to a question. MR. Slill10NS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. :MR. SIMHONS: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I give notice that I am dissatisfied with the minister's anslvers to this point ,and I would like 'to debate the matter with him on the late show tomorrmv. I have one further supplementary.

Can the minister indicate in reference to the project involving the three-quarters of a million dollars without tenders being called, can he indicate whether,to his knowledge or co.n he undertake to find out if he does not kno~v at the moment whether, there were any special circumstances, any emergency or other circumstances Hllich would Harraut the expenditure of three- quarters of a million dollars against the Public Tendering Act without I. ') ') J ... ....,

February 9, 1977 Tape 146 PK- 3 Mr. Simmons: calling any tenders? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works. MR. ROUSSEAU: I am not aware of any. But I will undertake again to find out, and in my statement as to the items contained in respect to the department ,in the Auditor General's report , that will, of course, be abundantly covered in my statement. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman did indicate that that ''"as his last supplementary. MR. SI:mfONS: Okay. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment, Sir. Would the minister tell the House when he expects to make the announcement of his appointment of a Commission of Enquiry to look into or to investigate the automobile insurance industry in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MR. MURPHY: Hr.

Speaker, I would like to be able to establish a date~but I have an awful lot of material gathered together and we hope as soon as possible, and there are other things cooking,that we are not quite ready to announce, but we are working very closely with other departments on it, and we hope as soon as we possibly can, Sir. That is the best I can do at the present moment. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A supple8entary question. A supplementary. /. ') ') t ...... '

February 9, 1977, Tape 147, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: . Would the minister tell the House if as a result of compulsory automobile insurance a number of insurance companies have pulled out of Newfoundland? If so, could the minister indicate roughly how many have left the Province as a result of the introduction of compulsory insurance? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MR. MURPHY: To my knowledge I do not think any have pulled out of Newfoundland.

The suggestion was made that there would be,but to my knowledge - perhaps other members might be able to ansl.rer the question, someone said, "Oh yes" - but to my knowledge,no. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, ~1r. Speaker. A supplementary. Would the minister inform the House if his department has been approached by the taximen in this Province to have their own co-operative insurance company established? If so, would the minister indicate what progress has been made along these lines? MR. SPEAKER: and the Environment. MR.

MURPHY: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs I have not been approached by the taximen, Sir, to form their own co-operative insurance,but I was approached by the taximen to whom I have suggested that they might form their own group. I think on three occasions at least I mentioned that to Mr. - the President of the Taximen's Association- MR. NEARY: Ern Antle. MR. MURPHY: - Ern Antle, and I supplied all the material that we could give them, Sir. But up to this date there has been nothing definite as to just what they are doing. I suggested they would form themselves into an association, not only in St.

John's but all across the Province~and have a long

February 9, 1977, Tape 147, Page 2 -- apb MR. MURPHY: hard look at what is happening. I have met with them, I think the last time was sometime in December. I have heard nothing since so I presume that things have been straightened out somewhat to their satisfaction. MR. SPEAKER: One more supplementary. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, would the minister tell the House if the delay in appointing the commission of enquiry is because the minister and his officials are working on the terms of reference of the commission of enquiry,or is it because they cannot find the right people to do the enquiry? What is causing the delay?

The minister promised this almost a year ago, What is causing the delay now? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and The Environment. MR. 1-ruRPHY: There is no delay as such, Sir. The fact is,as I said, as soon as all the facts were assembled we were ready to move and we would appoint this commission of enquiry. We are not just ready yet and we are not looking for the suitable people, we are not looking for anything, it is just a matter, Sir, of when we move we hope to move in the right direction. Before jumping in and finding out how deep the water is, we will test it first. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations and again it relates to the Auditor General's Report. In paragraph 45 under the heading of ''Unsatisfactory Administrative Controls',' the consulting contract in it bas to do with a consulting firm that was to work with the Buchans Task Force on a contract price of $20,000. I wonder if the minister can inform the House as to why the Jowcst bidder di.d not get the contract in this particular case? !. ') ,~ t ..... l \

February 9, 1977, Tape 147, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Industrial Relations. MR. ROUSSEAU: The bon. the Minister of Manpower and Mr. Speaker, I am going to say what I feel. Yesterday I was in the House of Assembly, it was passed out, I did not know it was passed out. I sat in the House of Assembly last night, we came to caucus this morning - very interested in the affairs of the Province - at 8:00 a.m •• we got out of caucus at 12:30 p.m., I a~ back in the House now and I have not even read the items in the Auditor General's Report, which does not mean that I do not think they are of severe importance. MR.

NEARY: Take it under advisement. MR. ROUSSEAU: I will take it under advisement. And to keep peppering me with questions - when the good time comes in my list of priorities,or in what the Premier decides is my list of priorities as a minister, I will study the Report of the Auditor General. SOME HON. MENBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. ROUSSEAU: But it will take some time to do that. I am not in position now and I - !-ffi. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Under the Question and Answer Period fairly strict rules are applied with respect to questioning, one of them being that only such information as is necessary to understand the question may be included; and the same rules apply to ans1;.rers as well • Industrial Realtions. MR. ROUSSEAU: The bon. the Minister of Manpower and 'Hr. Speaker, all I can say is, when I get the opportunity, and I mean that, I ~.rill look at each one of them and I will give replies where repltes are necessitated. I knm,;r that is a serious charge. I have not hcen dmm in the department for a day or a day and-a-half. As soon as we can get

February 9, 1977, Tape 147, Page 4 -- apb MR. ROUSSEAU: on them we will and we will ~ive satisfactory answers either for Questions for which Notice has been Given or if the member would like to pose the question again, or I will give it in a Ministerial Statement, either way. But we are certainly prepared to give the information as soon as I have the opportunity to compile it. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

LUSH: I realize what the minister has said, but there is a question that is much more important,and he can certainly take it under advisement, And this relates to the fact that the agreement of the contract was !or $20,000 and according to the Auditor General's Report the company in question submitted a bill for $37,000, which was $17,000 in excess of the agreed price. So I wonder if the minister can explain the special circumstances that resulted in almost the doubling of this particular contract? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

February 9, 1977 Tape 148 IB-1 ,m. ROUSSEAU: I certainly \d] 1 investigate it. A1 J I lrnow is that I am sure there is no intent of any malici .ousness on the part of the departmental offida]s involve~. I can assure the hon. member ~vho pose~ the question,and hon. members in this House, that the Buchans Task Force :Report l.Yc:ts one of great importance to this government. And if sornethin~ happened a] onr, the way to increase the cost it T,oTaS certainly a justifiable cost which I al"! sure that I will fully be able to explain as soon as I have the information available to me. :HR. LUSH: A supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: I will allo" 7 the orip,inal 11uestioner one further supplementary. MR. LUSH: Again the AucHtor General's report suggests that the ..:.....;_;;_...;:::,;:;__ _ _ __; original -price submitted by this, or bHl submitted by this company was $55,000 and they ap,r.eec to pay si!Tlply $37,000. I am wondering­ you knov7,this ag<1in is rtlnost nonbJe the pr1ce - and I am just wondering in vieP of tha t Phether the hon. minister l·:ould al!1o be wHling to i(1entify that particular coPsulttng fim? ~. SPEPJ<En : The hon. ~ r ini.ster of 'Porestry anc Agriculture. MR.

ROUSSEAP: I am certainly preparec 1 to give the hon. member from Terra ~T ova (Yr. I.ush) all the facts related to that i teTTI in the Auditor General's report as soon C:lS I have a chance to compile it. I am sure that when I clo so that the hon. member ~d11 jump ldth glee in his seat Hith the happiness of the cotr.pleteness of my answer. The hon. IT!emher for Hindsor-Buchans. }"l?_. SPEAKEr : ~~. FLIGHT: "r. Spe:~J, er, a cmestion f0r the ~'inister of 'r.onrism.

Could the minister ic1E>nt5~v for the House the names of the nine distinguished ·rc,' f0tm d l;mrlers ~ ,· 'f'o recei ver complimentar; ' 1 icenf;es last yP~r? ne alree1ry ~- noF one 0r t'''"· }'T'. SPE.i\.KEr: 'rhc h0n. "in .ister of T0urist". MR. HICKEY: of H;mpo\,TPr ;1Tld Tnt1u~tri ;11 11 " } ::1 :: ; n 11 s , T h;1\'(' not hnc-1 tlte opportunity to r,et the clct;"li1crl infnrl'· :Jt inn nn t[l (' iter's t·rldch the .1\uclj tor r.C'neral covered :in T€'];1ti0n t ,, r""V ,1cpnrtmt~ nt. T c:1n offer 0nc expJ;mation 'to!i th

February 9, 1977 Tare 14R IB-2 ~.fR. HII':KEY: regards to 1 icenses under the hec:tclinr; or using the word 'cornpJ imentary' for the bulk of the numbers that he refers to. And that is in relation to the explanation I gave J <1st yea.r at ~..rhich t:irne I saic1-ancl Hansard "'ill bear it out- that I acknowle~~ed the Auditor General's comments. I was prepared to look at the situation and correct it if possible, explain that those J icenses ~.Jere r,iven out by way of reward for the forwarding of statistical data.

I pointecl out then that if there was another method to be usPn ~.rhich ~.rou1d realize the same effect of having this infonnation forw~rc'!ecl by inclivi~ual hunters then ~.re would. I indicated at that tiJTI.e that the same situation that he referred to last year would ~ppear in this year's report because it hac1 in fact already been c1one. This is the situation this year.

I can say for the benefit of han. meMbers if the~r recall during the last session I announcec1 the chanf>,e,and the change being that no further complimentClry licenses of this tvpe ~,·oulcl 't-e issued~ that instead the penal svsteJTI wou]c1 be appliec1 rather than the reward system,being that anyone who faile~ to supply the c1epartment ~.rith the necessary information as renuirec1 under the act 117C'ttld be penalized by being prohibitec1 froT", ~: c J . dinr a license for one year. ~- FLIGHT: ·" suppleTI' .ent<'lry, l 1T.

Spec>.ker. ~·'auld the han. minister tell the House that in the process of issuinf.: complimentary licenses, the ones that the minister does not agree Fith hei.ng issued, i.s it also the practice of the department to issue tags with those licenses2 And if not, why not? MR. SPEAKER~ '"'· HirKEY: The hon. Hjnister of TourisT'l. vr.

SpP;~ker, T thin!·: the '-'on1 'complimentary' is probably ll'isuse of a tmrt~ here~ he cause I C.o not think really that Hord shoulil 11e usE'(l in the strict sense of those hundrec1- o(lc1 1 icenses that T have referrc~ to. ror.p1 iTI'ent11ry 1 i ccnsf' [15 ~·!f' nnc1crstanc1 1 t in my c1epl'1rtrnf'nt i'rf' ] icenscs ddclt an• issnf'c1 to di.f;:-inguished people in the s~nse thnt - ~.fP. T'ORF.T'TS: Dis t inr:u ished vis i tnr s.

February 9, 1977 Tnpe lld~ IB-3 JW._HICKF.Y: Distinguished people not distinguished visitors, distinguished peopl e . 'r . Speaker, I. have r-ave r ecl this Il1.:ttter last year and, yon kOO\· ~ , !ton. :?,entleT!'Icn etr e really 'barki ng up the ~rrong tree if they thi, k t hey art? nT'l t o sol"''ething here ,bec aus e for the simple reason Fe ver y often "'hen ~··e get stuck with the rules nf this House, r.o ry prer.e <lent. Now is it s uch a ereat sin if this department has followed a precedent wpi ch j s as o1d as t ime in "mich the Preynier of the Provjnce ~ such as the fo rmer Premier of the Province, the Lif'utenant-Covemor ot the Pr ovinc e ' ,, 0 ' t .\

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 149 NM- 1 MR. HICKEY: ah.;ays and forever since the beginning of hunting were given a complimentary licence. MR. ROBERTS: l•7ere tags issued? MR. HICKEY: Hith no tags. MR. ROBERTS: That is not the truth. MR. SMALLWOOD: Hhere is mine? Send it (:)Ver. MR. HICKEY: There was an election, Hr. Speaker, and that changed that situation. MR. FLIGHT: A suflplementary. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will permit one further supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: - to the Premier. MR.

FLIGHT: ~·7ould the Minister of Tourism explain to the House or indicate to the House the basis or the purpose for the issuing of 114 complimentary salmon licences in Newfoundland last year. ~rR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, you know,again if I cannot ~uoply the absolute details today .,I ~"ill supply them at another time. The salmon licences are not issued in the same form or in the same sense that big game licences are issued • Such as the Gander Cabin, if an industrialst comes into the Province, if distinguished visitors come to the Province and they go to that fishing cabin licences are issued.

Surely the Auditor General does not quarrel with the fact that if such a distinguisheci visitor comes in and you issue a salmon licence to him you are not going to charge him for it. Now,you know,~vhat we are talking about here is a difference of opinion and I have discussed this with the Auditor General.

I aporeciatP his connner.ts Really all he is talking about here is a difference in a svstem, a technical point in as much as the Auditor General feels that the revenue or the Jack of rcvC'nue for those 1 icences shm" up, and there is not necessarily to his mind or in keeping with the Financial Ad!'1inistr:1tinn .-\ct a satisf:1ct0ry explanation. Jle su~~csts another lvav around it is for an :l!'lotmt of monPy to annear in one> of the suhhearls of my rstlmatrs tn cover thnse liccncrs. Now we are goinr, to looT: rtt tlint·. Bl:tr-:mt d isn· imin:tt iPn. HR. J!IC.KEY: Thc•re ls no Jiscrlmin;ltlon.

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 149 NM- 2 }fR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The bon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A auestion to the hon. the Premier. Has the Premier anything to add to the statements by the Minister of Finance yesterdav concerning orders at Labrador Linerboard Limited and to the effect that the mill might not reopen on February 14th? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I would ask the !-1inister of Finance to reply to that, Mr.

Speaker; but just to repeat what was clear to me and I certainly would hope to everyone els~ is that the management of the mill is in the hands of the group we have set up, Mr. Sweeney acting as the manager on site. These will be the people making the decisions as to what does and what does not happen at the mill. As I understood it the reply was yesterday that we would assume that if there were orders there that the mill would open, and if there ~-1ere not they would not. But that is an opinion as opposed to a directive for or a.gainst the mill. MR. ROBERTS: The government were not directing the issue. }fR.

HODDER: A supplementary. Am I to understand then that the Minister of Finance did not know that there l-las a 5, 000 ton order and that Hr. Sweeney had announced that the mill would re-open on February 14th? m. DOODY: ~~at I said, Sir,I think, and Hansard will verify it or othen, rise ,is that if there are sufficient orders on hand then the mill will re-open. If there are not sufficient orders on hand then the mill cannot re-open and the implication there of course was that it was a manar,ement decision. The management decision had alreaclv heen announced. I \..ras stating the obvious.

Perhaps I oversimplified it. I should have been more specific that th::J.t mi11 i.n ~tl'phcnvJllf' can only 0rwr.<t~ f0r as lon?, :1s it ' ') ') ~t ,) ~-'

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 149 NM-3 MR. DOODY: can sell the material. Now we want to keep it operating to eternity i.f He can,and certainly the people in management control out there,you know,are sharing that conviction and will do everything they can to do so. The markets have never been in ~vorse shape. The European market is absolutely desperate. The Americans are dumping in there at prices that are absolutely unbelievable. The mill has a li11lited amount of orders out there nmv, certainly not enough to keep it in operation for a very, very long period of time.

Hopefully they will get more orders. l1hat I was attemntin~ to do was to tell the people in the Province, through this House, that it is a precarious position and it is a position that is dependent on the market place. It is not something that ~·fr. Sweeney has not said and I am sure it was not a contradiction of ~v~1at he had already said. I simnly verified it and the situation is as it was then, Sir. The mill will re-open. That amount of orders is in place. How long it will re-open remains entirely in the hands of the market place and Hr. Sweeney and his people are doing the best they can in that regard. MR.

HODDER: A supp]ementary. !. ') ') t .l ')

February 9, 1977 Tape 150 A supplementary. I w:f.ll allow one supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: ¥R. HODDER: Is the ~inister of Finance atvare that when he makes IB-1 uninformed statements to the House and to the media. that it causes great insecurity in Bay St. George1 NR. ROBEPTS: It certaf.nly does. SOME RON. f-"E1·IDEP~: Fear, hear! ~. SPEAKE'P.: The hon. 1-'inister of Finance. MR. TlOODY: !'1r. Speaker, first of all I would like to get a clarification on that point. It was not a misinformed answer. The answer tvas entirely accurate.

It was entirely true and it was entirely as the condition no"T relates to the mill in Stephenville. How that was interpreted by the people in Stephenville or by those who reported the anstver is certainly beyond my control. I have no more control over the marketplace for linerboard products than I have over the method of reporting tvhat I say in this House nor in the

interpretation of the cowments in the House. If the hon. member feels that I was Misinformed then so be it. There is very little I can Clo about that. I could simply answer the question to the best of F.Y ab:flity. Hmv they interpret it is entirely up to the intellect or the capacity of those people tvho have listened to the answers. SQl.ffi RON. ~lli!'REPS : Hear, hear! MR. SPF..AKE'P: TJe have time for only one further question. The han. member for Fogo. CAPT. HINSO'R: Thank you. I have a question for the han. Yinister of Fisheries, again arising out of the Auditor General's report.

Can the minister pive the House ;m explanation why two employees of his department use rentec cars putUng 20,000 rrdles on one at the cost of $3,900 and ;mother puttinr 15,000 Miles at a cost of three thousand, one hundred and some-odd dollars insteacl of usinr- the car pool? ~'!>. SPf},T~F.r: The hon. ":inistcr of f.'·isl'cries }'n. H. r.l1T'TEP: \'r. Spc~Lcr, the rcfcrcnrr to the flepa.rtrnent of Fisheries

February 9, 1977 Tape 150 }P... W. CAP.TEP: in the report is beinr, studied and I have requested a report from the appropriate officials in the ilepartment. As soon as I have that report I shall be happy to supply the information requested. MR.. ROBERTS : ~~. SPEAKE'?: A supplementary. If brief. YR. ROBEPTS: l.Jell, I will certainly be brief, Sir. l·fuen did the minister first become a1irare of the situation described in the question asked hy ~y co]]eaeue from Fogo (Capt. Winsor)? MR. SPEAKER: The han. }~inister of Fisheries. l"R. W. CARTEP: I repeat, '"'r.

Speaker, that the matter is being investigated by my staff. As soon as I have the report I shall tell the House. ~m. ROBERTS: ~\Then did you become mvare of it? ¥R. SPEAKER: Order, please! IB-2 ~"R. 'ROBErTS: You have knmvn about it for months and done nothing. lffi. SPEAKE'P.: The period for Oral Questions is now completed. _MR. SPEAKER: called. ORDERS OF THE DAY: This being Private ?- ~embers Day, motion 1 is The han. ~eT'l.ber for Ea~de T'iver. SOME RON. J.ffi}!BEP.S: Hear, hear! \'r. Speaker, I trust the House will bear with me. Every time I seem to come to St.

John's and leave the cold, crisp Northern climate~I pick up the St. John's flu. Or maybe it is illness induced by the House. }!r. Speaker, it is a custom,as ll'Ost of us know.,among Indian people that when they sit do\o.'!l <md c'1ebate ;mc'1 nrpte out tl1eir differences, at the end of the ~ebate they usually transfer the pipe of peace or pass SOT"('thinp, ~. rounc 1i7hich can be shared hy al 1 people.

The Inuit people ilre cli.fferent from that in thnt Inuit people believe that that shonl ~ h<:> done ;"!t the hef'innin~ of the clchate 0r the argument s0 as to bode ud 1 fnr , .. 11:-Jt h:1rrt-nf: r1nrinr the debnte. Generally "'h<lt l:nppens is th:1t ~.,hen penplc come in t0p.cther they

Februaey 9, 1977 Tape 150 IB-3 ~fR. STP.ACHAN: will pass things between each other, small gifts between each other. Since I live i.n a connnunlty which is eighty per cent Inuit, or Eskimo as you t..rish to call it, Inuit being the right term since Eskimo is an Indian word, we often see this going on where someone gets together,a group get together and gifts are passed across to each other. Generally ~vhat happens is that the person t.-Jho is most disliked or the person 't·~ho has the most opposite viewpoint is often clonated the gift.

The idea of this is that if you can start off by taking the two opposi.n~ forces, the ones with the biggest difference of opinion, then you can pass a gift and hopefully this bodes well for the rest of the discussion.

February 9, 1977 Tape no. 151 Page 1 - mw Mr. Strachan. I notice that when I was looking across the House that my worst enemy,or the one who has the greatest difference of opinion from me on many matters concerning Labrador and Labrador native people and wildlife and so on,is the Minister of Tourism. And last year we had many differences of opinion about the Wildlife Act.

I notice that he has left his seat, which is unfortunate, because I did intend to do exactly the same as the Inuit people do and present to the Minister of Tourism a token from the people of Labrador or from us . in the hope that he will listen to what is being said about Labrador, and if he will listen to what is being said about the way of life there, and will hopefully gain some benefit from it and possibly change a few of his opinions. Furthermore I did promise last year, Mr.

Speaker, that since the Minister of Tourism opened up the black bear season almost too late for almost all of us, that the only black bears that we could get were black bears in the month of July in which there are very large holes at the armpits and no fur on the back, and I did intend sending down a black bear skin killed in the month of July. MR. DOODY: That looks like my overcoat. MR. STRACHAN: But to get back to the point, I think I should do it in the Inuit fashion.

I do not know whether it is in order to pass across the House gifts to opposing members, but to auger well throughout the debate, I did bring in a small gift to the Minister of Tourism. SO:HE HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: Did you have a licence for that? MR. STRACHAN: There are no licences. I had nothing to do with it. I did not get it, did not kill it, did not shoot it. I had no boat, no ski-doo, nothing. MR. NEARY: J u,-; t like the Premier of the Province. !. 'l ., l ,) l

February 9, 1977 Tape no. 151 Page 2 - mw MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, the resolution which I introduced, and I get quite serious now - MR. ROBERTS: Do they run bigger in Ju:y? MR. STRACHAN: Yes, they are usually bigger in the month of July. That was got the day before the minister opened the season. SOME HON. }!EMBERS : Hear , hear ~ MR. STRACHAN: If it had been a day after it would have been much bigger. :MR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. gentleman. I will not forget the mistake of opening the season. MR. STRACHAN: }rr.

Speaker, the subject ~liich I brought up is a very serious one to us in Labrador. I do believe that I have forty-five minutes in which to introduce it, and at the end forty-five minutes to close-off debate. I do not know if I will manage to stand the forty-five minutes to introduce it, but I will try. I inte;.,d to be non-partisn in my introduction. I think that the debate we have in front of us on the question we have in front of us is far greater than party politics or far greater than any of us.

We are debating a very serious question, a question which many people in Labrador are talking about, are bringing up all the time, a question which often when we come to St. John's we find that people do not tackle with the same seriousness, the same feeling, as the people in Labrador and naturally so.

We find that this has come about because of a lack in Labrador of a role by the government or a lack of presence of government, and by that I mean not only this government - I make this quite clear - I think in the past totally there has been a lack of presence of government in Labrador due to the geographical differences and the physical difficulties of trying to travel in Labrador.

However, what is happening now is that as communications become greater, and communications within Labrador improve - that is nol necessarily from Labrador to elsewhere - but communications within Labrador improve, people are starting to voice

February 9 • 1977 Tape no. 151 Page 3 - mw, ~1r. Strac han. a great deal of questions, a great deal of asking where they belong, they themselves. I will say at the moment that I feel that many peoples within Labrador do not really know that there is a great deal of dissesion within Labrador, within the Inuit, and the Indian

February 9, 1977 Tape 152 PK - 1 Mr. Strachan: and the settler on the coast, the people in the centre of Labrador, the Lake Melville area, and in Labrador Hest there is a very great difference of opinion about where they are, and who they really are and where they are at, and a great deal of opinions expressed about where they are going by all of them. But they are looking for some kind of identity or common feeling between them. And I think as time goes on this will resolv~ in five or six or seven years time, and I think it is resolving much quicker than we thought.

This will resolve itself so the people willryecorne closer together. There is a very narrow viewpoint of what a Labradorian is, and in certain parts of Labrador I would not be classed as a "Labradorian". In certain parts of Labrador no one here but the member from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) would be classed as a Labradorian, even if he lived there for thirty years. In order to be a Labradorian in certain parts of it,one must be born in Labrador. And this is a strange feeling, a narrm~ vieHpoint and depending en the place you were born depends on what you are, what your nationality is or who you really are.

However many people from the Island have moved to Labrador, and have been there ten, fifteen, twenty years, twenty-five years some of them, and some of them yet feel that they are not classed therefore as Labradorians. Then again within the Labradorian structure there is another separation in that the people who have been the fifth or sixth or seventh generation are again told that they are not Labradorians originally, because the only ones who '..rere Labradorians originally were the native people, the Indian and the Inuit. So then '~e get this breaking do'Vn of groups within Labrador.

And as I say,these things have been in the mill for a number of years now. But slowly they are corning together,<md people are becoming more unified, and speaking more and more with a unified voice. Then they a.rc lookin~ at the Island part of the Province, and they are starti::g to compare the differences. And constantly we ~et

February 9, 1977 .,. Mr. Strachan: Tape 152 PK - 2 faced with it. I should state right here now that I believe in unity. I believe in a unified Province. I do not believe in separation. The points that I bring up often in the House which may be irritating to some members and ministers, government · and other members too,which may irritate are meant to be just that, to be irritating,because although you may not see it people in Labrador have become very upset. And vlhat it does, it causes them to move further and further away from the Island of Newfoundland.

I think the only way we can do it is to bring up constantly the fact that there are differences,that you do say the Province of Newfoundland,and Labrador is not included. That it is the Government of Newfoundland, and Labrador is not included. There is a great deal of confusion about the name of this Province. You can say very easily here because of numbers that if the Province is going to be the Province of Newfoundland,then it is going to be the Government of Newfoundland, and Labrador fits into Newfoundland.

That would be all very well, but you will find that almost every one in Labrador will immediately take up arms against that. As the member for Menihek (Hr. Rousseau) will tell you~he faces great difficulty when he tries to justify that fact to Labrador West, and most of Labrador West are people from the Island part of the Province who have moved to Labrador in the last ten, twelve years. And they themselves do not l·lant to see the dropping of the name Labrador. So there is a great deal of confusion about the name of the Province.

There is a great deal of confusion when they look at the map of the Province, because they see of course the Island in large- a picture of the Island, and inserted is Labrador. And there are examples elsewhere, historic examples elsewhere, in many, many countries,of the colonies being inserted in the corner. And the only time that they ever become in'portatnt is vJhcn their resources hecome that important that ttwv are thL'n blovm up ,or thcrf' is a feeling that they better be taken cart' of Clr thf'rt' t'l.l\' lw somf' Sf'n<lr<ltion or there

February 9, 1977 Tape 152 PK- 3 Mr. Strachan: may be some rift between them, and then they are brought into being part of the Province. Now you may say that it is not important to have Labrador included full size to show its proper prospective on a map. !. , . ., l ·i '·'

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 153 NM- 1 MR. STRACHAN: Rut to th£people in Labrador it is,because when you show the resources in Labrador you also show the proper pros1Jective. So therefore t-rhy when you talk in a social sense do you not also show the proper perspective? The same thinf, goes for an area like Shetland Islands, for instance,that I knmo1 of very well, in which it also was inserted. It was an insert. The Orkneys anrl Shetland Isl~nds in Britian and also a number of other countries have done this tdth offshore islands.

And then when they become important, such as in the oil and r,as develooment, as of recently if you look at the map now of Britian you will see that Shetland Islands are not inserted anymore, that you will £ee the true distance shown from the North of Scot]and to Shetland Islands and the Shetland Islands inserted there , in order to make quite sure to everyone that these islands belong to Scotland, belong to Britian. They all belong to one. There are other examples all over the world. The point is that sometime or other we must settle this fact of confusion of the name.

We must settle the difference about how the Province is going to be shm-m and whether you are really going to show the geographical perspectives of the various areas. I think the Island is 40,000 square miles and Labrador is 110,000 square miles, iP round figures. 'T'he population of Labrador is only around 40,000 - 40,000, or 42,nno -which is not very many people for a very large area. So obviously there can be no talk of Labrador ever having numerically any strength ,.~hatsoever.

Labrador cannot become a province numerically speakinp, or any other form that they talk about. while many oeople in Lahrador are talLinr, ahout these forms actively. If you 'd1] listen to the r~dio alr10st evE>ry day in L:1hrador thcrc i.s ~-;nne ml'nt. i.on of snmc fon:1 C'f :-'r'vernment to rule Labrador, that th.'rC' i.s 3 fcelin•~ that tl!c'V \,·nnt to sep:1rate from the Islanrl,or if t l l<'V lv;l!lt to st.1y vith the Tsl:mcl there fTlu~:t hf' ~ diffprent form of ~ ~0Vl'rt\ II H'I11.

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 153 NM- 2 !-fR. STRACilAlll : He have had all kinds of things proposed from territories to rer,ional ~overnmP.nts to provincial status. I very seldom have ever heard of Labrador .ioining ~lith Quebec. It seems to be a fallacy. It seems to be a ~t. John's idea and a :.t. John's nress idea. HR.. ROBERTS: Labrador separatism is not Quebec separatism. MR. STRACR\N: Labracor separatis~ is totally different. Labrador does not want, and I have never met anyone who ~.;ants to be ?art of Quebec. But yet I always pick up the St. John's newspapers or St.

John's peorle seem to feel that Labrador would always go with Quebec. In fact it is the very opposite. Quebec is regarded as being, may I say even worse than the Island, a worse choice than the Island by far. But there is in Labrador a constant bringinp, forward of ideas about Hhat you want. The territorial status to me is an argument. It is a rather greedy argument in that Ottawa will give more than St. John's will so therefore join Ottawa and become a territory.

But of course in having territorial status, essentially what you are doing is that you are giving up all rights and jurisdiction to Labrador and transferring that to a central ~overnment. That of course is a defeating purpose. To say that Labrador should become a territory defeats the whole argument that you want to decentralize and have more control within Labrador. Because in that very move you are going to the central government and turning over to the central government all i ttri sdiction.

And .iust because this central governll'.ent has 'IJ'lorc money, hooefully more money than the provincial ~overnMent in St. John's,you hope to be better off. To me it is a r:ree<lv, n:trr0v, se 1 fish vie~V"point. But I can understand it bein~ expresspd hy, for inst:mce ,native ncoplcs because nativ<> peonles arf' funrlP.d diroctlv frnn' Cltt.'1\vil Since the ff'clC"r:tJ r,OVC'T11MC'Ot has accepted rr>sn•'nsihi1itv fnr n:1ttve pecH1lcs nnrlcr the TI\!!\ !\ct. So 9 therefore. tht>rt ' 1 s moncv cnnrinr. into Northern I.:tbraclor for

------- February 9, 1977 Tape ~a, 153 NM- 3 MR. STRACHAN: native peoples and therefore they can see the advantage of belonging to Ottawa. There is expressed ideas of becoming a regional government, that there should be some form of govermnent within Labrador, that they can control the destiny and have more say of what is hapt>ening. And along these lines I certainly do agree that it is one which is most favourable to me but at the same time there is not within Labrador any real structure,or do I say it ~.,rould be very difficult at this time, this would have to be something which came in in stages.

The talk of separating totally and forming a province of course is absolutely idiotic at this present time, inasmuch as there aTe not the people there population--wise, nor the resources in people, nor t:he administrative staff, nor any of these kind of things, nor is it a very feasible idea oolitically speaking. And I do not hold much truck with it except the fact that the people will always use it when they are frustrated or when they feel that they want to have some control over their destiny. So

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 1.'54 NM- 1 MR. STRACHAN: So there has to be some kind of thing happen within Labrador which will give the people more control over their destiny and allow the people some kind of decision making power. And it is to that question that I have referred here and the formation of a select commitee to reDort directly back to the House here the various feelinr,s of the peonle and exactly where tve should be g-oin.r-:.

There are many proble~s within Labrador, many problems as they look tm.;rards the Island because they see the resources of Labrador being utilized by the Island nart of the Province, number one for .iobs, and that they see the creation of a resource to provide the jobs for the Island. But generally the benefactor of many of the resources within Labrador is often, and certainly more than Labrador, is the Province of Ouebec. The Provincr of Ouebec extracts far more out of Labrador than this Province does, and certainly more than the Island part does.

The Province of Ouebec in the ratio of jobs of course in the West is one to four, the ratio of jobs from Seven Islands to Labrador City and ~.Jabush. There are many examples. The Coastal communites for instance are supplied by food from Quebec. The purchasing agent for Labrador City and l.Jabush is situated in Seven Islands "t<lith strict orders from Quebec to give Quebec preference.

So any Newfoundland Company tvho wants to suPply Labrador City and Hahush runs the risk of having to deal t..rith a Seven Islands, Quebec purchasing ap,ent tvho obviously by the rules of that Province ~ anrl it is laid down quite specifically, even lately by -more l<l.tely bv Premier Leveque, must deal with Quebec first or ~ive t~em every onnortunity. _UB.....__ "P_H~KMAN: nns t~e ~ovrrnment released t~eir orders as Crown policy? ~R. STMCHA"l: Y~s. It is nrrtty well rrrarded as such. That is rir,ht. Most peonle in L.1hraclnr Hest - , , ,~ 't ·t ')

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 154 NM- 2 MR. HICKMAN: Does the hon. r,entleman have a co~y pertaining - MR. STRACHAN: No, I do not have the copy but I have b~en told by people in Labrador West that this was stated, it has been given to them in writing as one of the reasons why recently a firm there - MR.. SMALLWOOD : By whom? Written by whom? MR. STRACHAN: Thi.s has been given by the Seven Islands purchasing agent,the fact that they must deal and must give 'Preference to Quebec goods. MR. SMALLWOOD: But who gave the purchasing agent that order? MR.

STRACHAN: As far as I understood this ~vas a direct inference from government that they must give benefit - MR. ." SMALLWOOD: Govern~ent of what? 1-'fR.. STRACKI\N: The Government of Ouehec, sorry. MR. R. 't-1"00RF.~ ~ The Government of Quebec must purchase from the agent at Habush? ~m. STRACHAN: No, the purchasing agent in Wabush supplies as the purchasings agents for Labrador City and Wabush. If you are: a Newfoundland comnany and you are dealing and trying to supply goods to Labrador City and Habush that purchasing agent ~n Seven Islands will give preference over to Quebec dealers. AN RON.

MEJ.ffiER : You have got to go through that agency? MR.. STRACHAN: You have got to go through that agency. In other words, the purchas:\ng agency for Labrador Citv and ~Jabush is not situated within this Province. It is situated within the Province of Quebec. MR. S}t\LLHOOD: Hould the han . r,entlem;:m allow me to ask him this simple question? C:ould not this House,and perhaps the question had better be addressed to someone else than the hon. member, could not resources \..rithin tlw ProvincP he rf'rtui.rccl to have their nurchasinr, av;ent do~i.cll('cl i_p the ,1'r0vinn'~ Could that nnt bP. m:1clc?

And why not? ' ' . ., It 't I

February 9, 1977 Ta!'le No. 154 MR. STRACHAN: Well I was only pointing out one of these - this is one of a number of thin~s which occur in Labrador. l.fuat I was trying to point out '"as that possibly there are many more, possibly a select committee or something would report these kind of things because not only is there that kind of physical thin~ hanpenin~, there are political ties with Quebec. set up bv theRe ~Pcha~isms. MR. SMALU!OOD: Pould the hon. meml:Jer ar,ree that it is absolutely shocking to a Newfoundlander - MR. STRACHAN: Absolutely. NM- 3 MR..

S}fALLHOOD : - to be told,and presumably the hon. gentleman is correct in his statement, to be told that all purchases for those two great companies in Labrador, the City of Wabush and Labrador City, are ordered in effect to do all their buying in Quebec. That is absolutely shocking. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would just like to point to hon. members that during proceedir.~s if another ·hon. member asks permission to make a comment this is quite in order, in which case the ori~inal hon. member should either regain his seat or make some move in that direction.

This is purely to maintain the decorum of the House and also to maintain or make the maintenance of order an e."l.sier job for the Chair. I would just like to bring that to hon. members' attention. I realize ~his is early in the session and these hahits may take a little while to beco~0 ingrained again. The bon. member for Eagle River.

February 9, 1977 Tape 155 ~. STMr.HAN: Thank you, ¥r. Speaker. I apologize. I should say, Jvfr. Speaker, that I ~vould like to just continue without i.nterruption. I would like to get finishe~ and so therefore I am prepared to stand and just carry on w::f_thout a.nswerinR any specific ouestions. Anyway, IB-1 Mr. Speaker, I thinv that the point I nade,and there are a number of other points, shmv an example that this Province should becoT!'e more resolute in maintaining Hs hold on Labrador. It should sho~·J more precedence.

It should, I think, try to pass some legislation which prevents much of what is happening in Lah.ra.c'lor. Quebec is very insicious. l•7e realize that and manv peopJ e in I~abrador are deeply concerned. I remember em November 15 there t-•ere many people in Labr.a._dor, on the coast and in R<~ppy Valley, <l_nd I dare say that the ~ember for 't-~enihek (~•r. P.ousseau) could p-ive exai"''ples :in Labrador 1.Jest, where people were really very concerned about ~..rhat was goi.ng to happen to Labrador. The peop1e need to be reassured.

And when they ~o not have this reassurance, then they start wonilering exactly ~rho they belong to, lvher.e is their place. This is the kind of thing, I think, that needs to be corrected, that there needs to be some attention to. I think, :t-'r. Speaker, there is a danger, a very real danger of over attention as '"ell. I underst~nd that, that one can be sa caught up in the idea that it is like belly gazjng, you continue to look at youn::elf until you cannot see anything else.

But I do think that over the next few years there is a very definite ster has to be made by this Province, by the govern'l!'ent~in trying to hold on to that part of the Province ;:mrl try to rn.:ll~e that part of the Province really believe it beJonr;s Pithin the Province. You ~,ri]l never stor separ:lti sm hy force. You ~·dll never try to coerce people. Peon1 e ~·-fl 1 alwC~ys l"Ove the t-.ray they \-.rish to over a period of time. You may try and prevent H one t:frne,but :tt ~··1JJ cotne up n~ain un]e~~ they renl ly be] jevc tl:f'v l'f'lonp tllcre.

This is h'hnt I think th.:tt T nm ste~tinr, here, is thnt rcnr1c :lr£' Tf'.1llv ]no],-jn~ for a place to

February 9, 1977 Tnpe 155 IB-2 MR. STM.r.IIAN: belong. Before the feelinrs reach a pitch at ~,Thich there is no belonging anywhere, where the feelings have hardened to the point that people just do not want to have anything more to.do with the Province or the government of this Province, before that happens then these steps must be tAken.To deJay, to Paste time or to believe that it is not occurrin~ and this is ~.;rhat is worse, to ignore it. It is extremely frustrating and I must ~ay that the member for Naskaupi (1•fr.

Gouc1je) and myself often mentioned H, that it is extremely frustrating for us to knmv that when "t<re go back home vre are constantly fee. Pith it, we are constantl v subjected to pressures which when we put the~ in front of the House here,or people in St. Jolm's,we are laugheC. at, scorne~ or it is not taken seriously. Sometimes I ·poncer ~/!:ether it is worth H all presenting this point of view,when I could just go home and let the whole thing go the way it will and separate off. But I belj.eve in un5.tv. I do not believe in taking parochial, narro-.;.r-mindec'l, bigote~ viewpoints.

I believe the place for Labrador is Hi thin this Province. If we believe it V.'e must therefore fight for it. If 'tve are going to fight for it, then it must mean that we bring it up and bring it up and bring it up until you realize that it must be fought for as well. It is not given to you as a gift. It is sowetl"ling that you must earn and hold on to. You cannot just pass it off or shrug it off and say that it is a btmch of radicals, it is a minority,as i.s often expressec:l, a small loud-mouthed JTtinori ty, a bunch of racH cal s up there ~v·ho are ex-pressing separation. I agree that j t i 1" Cl srr.alJ.

T'linori t ? "'ho are expressing it. As in all societ ies'l <1 ST'lall nurnher of pc0ple ~dll talk anc:! 'dll tall: loudest. nut a rcre<tt ~ea1 of the people hho are nol1rling yes - and I say nodding - are very sensible, very stahle husjness people, honour;~ry dtizcn:. ;1nd n~rt of tl ' c st0tus qun.

. ~ · .... -: -· February 9, 1977, Tape 156, Page 1 -- apb MR. STRACHAN: And they are not saying no any longer. They are not saying no as they did with NLP, they are now nodding yes and they are saying, "I wonder what ~ole could do?" That then becomes very serious when you get this very solid mass starting to nod up and down instead of rejecting it out of hand. We will always get the small minority who will bawl loudest and shout for separatism, and they do not trouble us really in many cases because they will always be there regardless of what happens.

But when the majority start to nod yes and start to look, with a majority of respectable citizens who are starting to think of the ways in which they can separate Labrador form this Province, then I think the situation is very grave and very serious indeed. A lot of the concern is that you do not understand the people of Labrador, or the people of the North, or the geography, or the way of life. I know many members, in fact one member the other day, I know many members of this House who will ask me on Monday if I were home for the weekend. This has happened many, many times here.

There are many people who will not understand our frustrations about travel but in order to get to this House I was stuck ~Jelve days. Not twelve minutes, not twelve hours but nJelve days. Twelve days sitting in one place waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting, trying to take off two or three times but always returning to the same place. And we get very philosophical about it because one has to get very philosophical about waiting in one place twelve days. The longest I have waited was twenty-one days. I remeber three Christmases ap,o I waited with Peter Gzowski for seven days.

One gets very philosophi.cal about waiting and therefore very tolerant about ~Jaiting . , because if you ~-1ere not going to get philnsophical ahout it you would not he living there, you could not· stand it, it would drive you around the

February 9, 1977, Tape 156, Page 2--apb MR. STRACHAN: bend. So you just sit, and you get up every morning and you look out the windo~1, you close the curtains and you pull the blanket over your head and you go back to sleep again. But I think you must realize that at some time or other, if this is going to be made part of the Province, that "117e do have very serious difficulties of transportation, of moving people around, of people feeling isolated, forgotten, neglected, and at some time or other the government must come to grips with it.

I understand well that this Province is not a have Province it is a have~not Province, that it does not have the money, the funds that it can start lashing out social services all over the Province. I realizE that but at some time or other parts of the Island are going to have to be asked to make deliberate sacrifices so that parts of Labrador~which do not have these services,can catch up with them, at least to a certain extent in services.

To try to tell some people who have no electricity and no telephone and no radio and no television and no wharf and no road around the community that they do not need these kinds of services, or you have to wait over a period of time for these kinds of services, will only increase their frustrations. And as they have now started to travel around more and hear more from . people, they l-1!11 eventually feel that they are being forgotten, neglected and it is therefore time to look elsewhere and the looking elsewhere is the separation movement. I do not know.

I realize there are many places who are craving for pavP.d roads, and I listen to the petitions, or places l-lhich are craving for various other thinp:s. They really need these benefits they are looking for,but I think it is about til'le tl1.1.t m:1yhe fovcrnment or some of us should turn around and say that th<"rc nrc other places in this Provine!" that are extremely badlv off. !. r- ' ) t .l ......

February 9, 1977 Tape 157 IB-1 1-'R. STRACHAN: And I am not talHng ahout the Labrador North part of 'IT'Y district but certainly parts of Lc'!hr:1dor South \.rhi ch are in extreme clifficul ties. And there is sacrifice can be made, and rather than have your paved roads this veRr. mavbe vou would wish to give the community of Fox Harbour a roan ~round the school so that the children do not have to go to school by boat pushing through the ice in the \-linter with a life jacket on. Or the community of Hilliams Harbour can have electricity oT Pinsent Arm or they can have some radio or telephones.

These are not luxuries. They are not asking for a r;reat cleal. But when they do not get the basic essentials, the basic necessities, and they hear more C~nd more or hmv- rich L;>_hraoor is and. V.'hat \'le intend to do with Labrac'!or and the r.hurchHl Fa] ls and our uranium and our minerals, then they feel that they are being very, very badly ~ - et down, that if Labrador is going to become ri_ch in the future with oil and gas and various other thinr,s, v.Thy nust they ~r;dt until that occurs before they get some of the benefits? As I saicl, 1''r.

Speaker, there are a number of things on the social side and the eonomic side ~nich need to be done in Labrador to satisfy sone of the demands that peop]e f.enuinely have. Some of their frustrations Fould then leave them. They would feel possibly a part of the Province jf they clid have some of these things done. As I said, there are solT'e things ~·rhich they are craving for ~..:rhich I feel must he taken in check.

There are situations in which they are r1er<'lnd jn[', in sorn_e cases~ things ~.rhich can never be given to the!!'. ~ut j.,_ m:=mv cases what they are looking for ;:tre straightforY."aT( 1 , everv:l,-. y, rensone1b] e thinf"~ ~,·hich neen to 'be done if only to c::ttch tn · sornC' of thc>se parts of !,ahrador ~. ·jth the rest of the Province.

To live in ~;<1in ;mel to ll:1vc to r:1y on an escnl ;1tin?. rate for electricitv, it ic. hacl enourh J ivjn<; in the North - 1 m£'an barl cnourh in the sense nf ltnvh1f rn p;~y Fnr ~Jectri.c:lty and these kinds nf thinr,s, :ft :fs b.1rl C'notwh th.1t v:w and cost-wiAe hecause of our dark oavs /. r ' J t 'l ,)

February 9, 1977 Tare 157 IB-2 ?-fr.. STPACH/\N: and so on without havin ~ to find that we ~re paying the highest rate of electricity \v:ith5n the Province because we are on a diesel generator and V.'e c<mnot be eauaJ ized. Surely small communities like tl:.at can be equalized, the electricity rate could be equalized so that ,,.e pay the same as everyone else h., the Province. Nobody is poing to rush out and put in electric heat because of course it is impossible. The ~enerators wjll not handle it. But these are thh"tgs v!h:.l ch people ::tre often Parried about a.nd bothered by.

These are the frustrations when they hear of the Churchill Falls power and they hear of the LoHer Churchill and the Gull Island project, transmission lines and tunnels being built and they hear of these vmnderfu], vast schemes all from Labrador riches .which will benefit the Province,::tnd yet every community in my district must pay an increase in escalating rate for its electricity because it is on diesel generatin~ rather than on hydro when it "to•ould be a sill'ple T!'atter of equalizing it and removing this frustration, th:i s feeling that here we are vrith all this pov!er, all these resources and yet we have to pay the highest rate within the Province.

Agreed there are other parts of the Province and other parts on the Island \vho also have to pay these escalated rates as ,,•ell. But I feel it could be ~nne very easily for them as well. We are not asking for any special consi.rleration. We are starting that some of these frustrations ll'ust be r.otten rid of or people \dll increase tc> att.nc h the Tf') nnd e1nd nttack N e~·•foundlanc and think of themselves as Lahr~c1oriaP~, to c1j~J ike r·~eFfoundlanders anrl not belong to the rrovjnce \·.'L1tl':oeve.r.

Last1y t ~,·oulcl 1 He to r1ention hen' that T live 1n n (ljstr:!ct jn Fh:!ch there ,,n, n;>tivc npoplc e1nrl I live jn a community jn ~,,h-fch eightv per cent of the l'Cople :lre Inuit, or k1:.i c;tJ J y Inuj t spealdl')"', Inukt:itut, and tl'"" have (ltJC'';tions and cflnccrts :1nd irlens ddch nre very ~iffcrcnt rr,,nl cnncl'l'ts tl1,1t :1rc• hf'rl' nn tllf' Tsl<1.nd nr ccrt:d .nJy in ~t. Jnhn's,:dth 0nrl · r •:mv of thf'ir l·',"lvs nf 1ife ;mc1 ll1:my nf their trnc1itinn:- :lrt' \'( ' r'' rl ,.,~,, tn tl't' t-r:H1 it i P11B nf the

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 158 NM- 1 MR. STRACHAN: European settlers who came to Newfoundland and settled down. But thev do have certain other distinctions that they feel are of value to them. They often use a word, special rip.hts,and I do not quite understand what the •special' is but I certainly believe that they have rights and.they have traditions and based on that tradition of land use and occupancy of land that they have certain things that they can claim. And over the next year or two years, or three years you are going to hear more and more about native land claims within this Province.

The native.situation within this Province is a very different one from most other Provinces in Canada and from the Northwest Territories in Hhich native people are solely the jurisdiction of . the federal government. MR. ROUSSf.f\tJ : 'Peonle coming in the Province as 'lo.·ell. MR. STRACHAN: Yes, distinctly although in essence the idea is that the funding comes from Ottaw·a. The Province has jurisdiction over them, has retained the jurisdiction,and Ottawa tvill therefore supply the money through a federal­ provincial committee. MR. ROUSSEAU: The Labredor Inuit and the - MR. STRACP.Al'-T: Oh yes I believe so.

I mean there is a basic difference, considerable difference between a Labrador native person and native neople of the Island or the orig~nal native peo~le of the Island,but I do not believe that they originally are the ori?,inal native neonle of the Island.

Rut rather than get into that, specifically in the Labrador situation t\e have peonle anrl historically they feel they have nefi.nite ri~hts over 1 :mrl, hun tin?". rights that seem to be diametric., l lv onnosed by r;overnmc.nt and r.1ost governments to such a vieHno Lnt thnt \vhat 1ve end up doing is putting; the native neonle into aclvf'rsarv rolf'. 1·'e> keen pushjng them c.imvn so that they cncl ur t:ll·.i.n~>. PC' ~ ~iti.ons in 1-1hic.h tlwir f rustr:1tion creates

February 9, 1977 Tape No.l58 NM- 2 MR. STRACHAN: difficulties with government or difficulties with peonle they ~re dealing with. Rather than take in what I feel i~ a far more maturP, and a far. more longer viewnoint, because 1-1hat you are _going to be faced with in the next two or three years is, as all native peonles and all governments in Canada are going to he faced ~vith ~is a land claim settlement by native ~eople in which they are ~oing to claim certain land. And in essence what a land claim settlement is to rre is a last treaty.

There have been many treaties '"ritten vTith native people and most of the treaties have been treaties in which the white person has ~vritten them and the native person has signC'd them and the -.;.rhite Person has therefore progressed to break them. In this case here what has happened is that in our wisdom we have nm,;r ~iven native peoples money for them to write their treaty, to hrin?.; that treaty to us and He negotiate the terms of that treaty and then we si~n it.

But in future this will be the last treaty, the last signing,and if it is not done right then the native peonJes can only blame themselves in essence because they have written the terms of the treaty and negotiated them.

So in essence althou~h ~,Te are being kind ,.,e are still retaining our nmver and I think therefore that we must become far more mature and long sighted bec<:tuse we ,.,ill be dealing in the next fe"tv years with a hist0ric docmnent and hopefully this Province -.;-ri] 1 TI()t be lookinP.; at Labrador native people and treating Labrador native neople in a \lay in ~,rhich one hundred years from nm-1 neon] e v.dll be viewing us in exactly the same t-• .'ay as \ve often vie•-7 nm- r the pconle Hho s i"ncd the orir,inal treaties 1-lith Indian peor.le \vho we arc often very much ashamed of.

T s:1v this lwc.:~use th0. n.:1tive question will arise in Labrador n.nd it i:; fund:trlL'Pt:11 r0 t 11is f!uc~;tif'n nf L.'1br.:1dor hci.ng part of this Pnwinr('~:·, •c: lUSC tiJev .'lrf' dc:1l inr, \vitll tracts of lnnll "·hich t:hrv t~H~l'l·>c'lv .... ~~ c-1:-~im .1nd tll.i::; c;urstion must he rC's0lV£>r1

February 9, 1977 Tane No. J 5R M - 3 MR. STRACHAN: and it must be resolved clearly. And the viewpoints must be expressed about it and ~ve must come to certain terms with them. I have then outlined some of the points concerning Labrador. I have tried not to be nartisan. I have tried not to list whole documentations,.which I.could,of differences perpetrated by different governments on the peonle in Labrador which really upset them.

But I have tried to point out that our differences in a way of life, differences in. services. differences in needs, differences in the looking at of resour .ces, of f'Xtracting thoses resources, of where these resources are gain~ to go. There is the problem of Quebec, ever present nroblem of Quebec. There is the -presence of native veonle "tvithin the Province, within Labrador; this must be settled. , r. ., (t ,l I

February 9, 1977 Tape 159 IB-1 'MF.. STRACHAN: And I hope therefore that the select committee - and I am not one for stur"ies or committees, "tore have had enough studies in Labrador. He had a royal commission which uas supposed to be the last p;reat one. It seems that every tiTI'e we open the r:'!oor in Labrador therP is soJ'I'Iebody knocking at the noor with a survey list wantinp, to study either the shape of our noses or Hhether He ~.ratch television now. A recent crew was in there studyinp, our television habits. By the ,.,ay, the shape of our noses v.•as studied in Nain.

People did come to Nain to measure noses to try and relate it to something of ethniticity. Anyway your cultural background apparently, your ethnic hackgrounc'l can be related to the size of your nose. He have had enough of these kinds of studies and I hate like hell to propose that ,,re should have another study. But I think that a select committee to report to this House 7because many of you do not appreciate that this is very seri.ous business, that we need to hold thiR Province top.ether and it should be discussed thoroughly.

And I therefore propose this select committee to travel to various parts of Labrador and to listen to the various needs of the people there, to ljsten to the. native statenent of claim, to listen to the situation in Labrador Fest where they feel very strongly about regional government, to li.sten to the Central Labranor area where they have other feelings, and to the Coastal area ,vhere they are proposing certain territorial status and to take these all into consideration and report b8ck to the House.

Hopefully then you \d 11 understane the immensity of the problem, the complexHy of the problem and hopefully then ,.r:ill acdress yourself to trying to put an end once and for _all to this situat] on "i7hich can only cause us harm, only cause us much misery and despair. I believe it should be settled sooner rather than later. Thank you, }'r. Speaker. SO~ HON. ~~~~EPS: Fear, hear! The hon. I:leiPher for :r:ask:mpi .. J-lpar, he;~.r! !-'P. • O'W'TH E : ~~r. Spenker, I rtm not sure th<1t r C'<ln di~<~r.ree,nnd T

February 9, 1977 Tape 159 IB-2 YR • GotTDIE : do not believe that I have the intention of disagreeing with many of the points which ~.rere brought forth by the member for Eagle River 0.'r. Strachan). I think the member after his number of years of living in Labrador and dealinp ~vith the people of J.abrador, at least his own particular part of it, is becoming cmi te fal'liliar v7i th the issues.

When I get to the end of I!lY remarks I vrill have a ~uggestion as to whether I agree or clisap,ree with the type of solution the bon. l!lel'!ber is suggesting vci_th the motion Hhich is presently being debated .• I think in that motion itself,at least for me,there are two main points to be considered. That is that that this House is gravely concerned l·7ith the state and sentiment of public opinion in La.hraflor, and a select cotr.mittee be appointed to consider and stucly all matters pertaining to the state and sentiment of publ:ic opinion in Labraclor.

I might also coi!!p] ii!!ent the mei!Iber on his gift to the J·fini~ter of Tourism. I a.I!l. sure the minister at some point in time v.rill I!lake reference to that p,ift in his remarks somewhere along the way. The member also referred or supgested that perhaps I may be the only member in this hon. House who coulc:l be or "t.rould be classified as a native of Labrador.

Just to explain that: Hhen I was in elementary school one of the books I l·>as to study - I cUd not do very much of a job of studying it - but it was a Ne~·7foundland history book. ·And in that particular document "toTe - and when I say t.,e. that is the non-Inc1ian, non pure Indian, nr non-Inuit, non pure Inuit ~,~ere referred to as breed. I do not knm·7 i_f that breed wi1] - '\ !u"l RON. 1--'E~'BE"'R: Ralf-breed. One hon. member suggested half-breed. That tn.ay very ~,!ell be the case as Hell. nut just as a - I de nnt kno•,T if it is a point of interest or not -but to clarify the bon.

T'lember's classification of me as a native Labradorian, I have a hit of "French ranadhm-

February 9, 1977, Tape loO, Page 1 -- apb MR. GOUDIE: -no relation to Rene- Scotch, English, Indian and Inuit blood. So breed, cross-breed or whatever you want to call it, there it is. There are a number of points I wish to deal with in the few remarks that I am going to make. There are varying opinions, I think, in Labrador in relation to our position in the provincial strategy, if you 'dll, of development both economically and socially. Unfortunately the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan) was unable to attend the most revent meeting of the Labrador Resources Advisory Council, which was held just recently in Happy Valley. He l-tas delayed, I understand,in Nain by bad weather, and I think he was referring to the twelve days, as a matter of fact, in his remarks. The bon. the House Leader was there as was the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. AN HON. MEMBER: the Opposition. MR. GOUDIE: of the Opposition. You mean to say the bon. the Leader of Yes, I am sorry.

The bon. the Leader I think they,perhaps, from the two days of meetings may have gathered some feeling for the opinions and so on expressed at that particular conference. We dealt with a number of issues in that conference the more prominert one perhaps was put forward by a gentleman from North West River who represents a parituclar ethnic group in that community, and that is Labrador separatism. I think that was discussed in some detail, particularly in the manner he presented it in relation to some land claims '11hich are going to be presented to government at some point in time.

But it was interesting to note that just following that gentleman's remarks at that meeting, one other person from the coastal community of Labrador~and two other people as we.ll,stood up and suggested that perhaps separatism at thi.s point in time is not the answer and he p,ave a number of reasons for it. But the one that interested me was that the present

February 9, 1977, Tape 160, Page 2 -- apb MR. GOUDIE: provincial governme~t has been paying some attention to that part of the Province and perhaps we should give them one more chance. He also in his remarks mentioned that there seems to be, and he included all members who represent the Labrador

section of the Province, there seems to be an interest in these members to try and bring about some solutions to some proble~s which exist in the Northern part of the Province as a whole. It was interesting to see the varying opinions at that particular conference. We in Labrador have an awareness, I think, an awareness that is being developed of the potential we have, particularly in terms of resources.

But the overriding issue, I believe, is not whether or not these resources should be developed but the manner in which they are developed and the benefits to be derived for the Province as a whole.· Not just for the Island portion or for Labrador itself, but for the Province as a whole. SOHE RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. "GOUDIE: I think people referred to our hydro potential, the various minerals - uranium at Kitts Michelin - I understand there is to be, perhaps already beginning, but very shortly to begin some experimental drilling just l.J'est of the Makkovik area at Horan Lake and one other Lake, I believe.

So the potential of that remains to be seen. MR. SMALLWOOD: Is that near Monkey Hill or part of that area? MR. GOUDIE: No. I do not know the exact mileage but I would estimate it to be sixty or eighty miles 'vest of the community of 'Hakkovik. HR. SHALLWOOD: That is near Monkey Hill, I think. MR. r..OT.IDIE: Well, okay. It is not near, it is c]ose. But in these resource developments that are in the news every day, I think the environmental impact

February 9, 1977, Tape 160, Page 3 -- apb MR. GOUDIE.: in perhaps the community of Makkovik, the community of Mud Lake,and the resources in terms of urani .um and - 1 do not if you would call it a resource - a proposed, or a park which perAap~ .may be proposed for the Mealey Mountains area 9 !. I' ·) t I •.•

Februnry 9, 1977 Tape 161 IB-1 f.'n. GOTIDIE : are being considerer very heavily and I think very positively by the peoples of these tvo pC1rticul?r communities. The initial reaction was negativism. The 0nly renson that negative reaction was put forth, I think, was becnuse of= a lack of information. It is as pure and simple as that.

Penp1 e <"o not lmm.;r or did not know - they are beginning to learn -what soMe of the il!'plicat:ions are in the uranium development, in what it l!'ight Mean to a nuM~er of col!'munities in the perimeter of the !fealy fo'oun ta.:f.ns in terMs of 'tvha t jobs "toT ill be provided, ,,,hat type of park that may be and a number of other issues as well. So it is hm.r the resources are developed, I think, which is very important to the people of Labrndor~and I am sure important to this government and to the Province as a whole. He are concerned about soTI~ething else as Hell.

This is going to be discussed for years to come,I PoulC! su~~est,anrl has been discussed. for years in the past. That is the processing of our resources in this Province. There \vas reference made at various points since this opening of the House to the possibilfty of some processing taldng place in Labrador. I am sure that the T!lember for ~·enihek (l~r. Rousseau) when he stands in his place t0 address this motion wHl have some comments to make on that. But the hydro potential is there in Labraelor. I cannot estim?te hov ~uch is there.

The ~~inister of ~ines and F.ner~y r.irht perhaps at some point in his remarks have something to say ahout that. But it appears to me that there is all kinds of potential for elevelopment to take place up there. ~aihrays, I do not knC''t-r if that :f.s a possibility. Perhaps sol!'e sort" of a port corrii'or complex at some point in ttne may he consfderecl. I <"o not kn0w. Eut v".'lt T aT1' s;:~yin?, I guess, is that in Lahrador there nre frustrations for a nmrber of reasons and one of them was reff'rr€'cl to hy the }1nn. '!"leT1'her for Edgl e '!'liver (~ 1 r.

Stracl1an) and thnt j~ isolatjon, not only in coastal CO!T'I!'.ttnities. Cranteel coastal C'N'rnnn!ties are T1'nre isolntf:'d froM :my l:\rp:e center clse\vhPre than WP have cnMin~ into my ~istrjct rlai1y if't servir.c .1ncl tlw ho:tt ~ervicc in the Summer and so on. But !. t' . ., t l • )

February 9, 1977 Tape 161 IB-2 1'R • f.oT'DTE : ~?aitinr, tvelve to tFenty-one clavs for an aircraft to arrive in a COJT1JT1unity on the c0ast ts at soMe point in t:!me a hit of an inconvenience, T think. ~.q>. JvflTT'PHY : }"f/ • Gf)liJ'IE: l'R. ~-flJRPHY: Y~. ('..()T'T!Tf.: }fR. l'Pl:!PHY: Foul~. that not he Clue to weather? Yes. Hou] d a jet p.et in there? Fou]d a 737 get in? A 737 could not get in there now but - With the weather I ~e~n. ~T. C.OT~IE: You are talking about the coastal communities, are you? ~'l>. ~'TTT'PHY: I ?m just vronC'ering at ~·7hat point jn the year it ,,1as. l'P. GOr'DIE: Yes.

Hell perhaps that may be resolved in the next few years as Hell. The airstrip at rart~.rriRht~ I aTT~ told.,~Till bring benefit to the area because the different type of aircraft could be used than is being used by the airline ~.1hich operates 't..rithi_n Labrador at this point in time. I understand that there are proposals for other airstrips in coastal Labrarlor as ... ~ell. That I think is probably going to he the most influential ~ove that anyone could make in terms of providing access, not only to coastal Labrador from interior Labrador and other parts of the Province,but vice versa.

And that is probably the most important part of it,as Fell,:r think, for the people to get from coastal lahr~~or to other points. I think there has tCl he in ~eveloping the resources of Labraoor a marrying, if you will, of the economic and social aspects. I worked for a couple of years as a cotn!'1unity clevelopment worked ~·!ith tne ~ompany of Young CanAdians in ~, .- r.: outh Coast rerion. I at!' not surr.estinr.

I hac any influence in sorr>e of the deveJopi'l.ents that are no~·· r-aldnr. p1nce jn terr,s of :- · people of L<1hrador asking cmestions ~ncl pettinr- inform<'tion and m::~l·inr. their points of view knor . .n.

But orrnn:l?.at:lons such as the romp<mv of Younr Cnn:u!ians, ~TN Extensjon, F~onti£>r r.oJler,P, the J.nhrndor nesourccs ! .dvisor.y Counsel, local ('it:f7.£"ns' rroup~ ,,,h:fch I·!('Tf' fOTP1f'd nt the:> citi?.Cns' jn]tiat:fve themse]ves fnr pt1rr0sf's of f:unilinrizlnr . thcM<.f'1vcs 1dth cert;~in processes ,,·hich h;we to rc fn]} 01-recl or tnkc p 1 nee fr OTCCT to hf'ttcr thci T 1 Clt, :f f yott pi 11, T th lnv h;1Vt' J,f','n '"'rv in~:tntMrnt;~l in J,r lnr:.fnr, Cortstn.l T.ahr.1rlor

February 8, 1977 Tape No. 1(12 NM- 1 MR. GOliDIE: into the mainstream of life and obviously that has not reached the stage where everyone is happy yet. But at least the move has begun. The hon. member for Eagle River (Hr. Strachan) raised a number of points, some that I am not going to deal with because they relate to other parts of Labrador, narticularlv Labrador 1-Jest~ and I am quite sure that l'IY hon. collea~ue from Xenihe!~ (>-{r. Rousseau) will have some remarks to make on these points.

One remark 1-.1hich the member for Eagle River referred or made was that he felt there was ~- lac!~ of governTTlent 's nrcsence ~ and that nerhaps may have been -not may have been.,_it has been traditional I think. But that,I believe"~is changin~ • And one other noint he raised was ,,,here the communications have imnroved over the last ten or fifteen years and o~inions are being heard and perhaps a shm-1 on a radio station here in St. John's yesterday ,morning may be an example of that.

The report '''as sent do-r,.m by a reporter in Goose Bay on lvhat he at least perceived to be the feelings of some people of Labrador. I 1.ras asked for my oninions an on-the-street intervie1-.1 was conducted here in the City of St. John's itself and there were varying oninions I think,hut that is an example I believe C'lf :1mv communications are improving and ho~·7 neonle are finally he?-;inning to be heard.

These feelings of seraratism or Hhatever you Pant to call those feelin!:!s, or any other feelings that T"leople :1<!Ve in Lahrador, nerhans traditionally may not have heen heard as rnuc:1 simnly because there "t·:erc no comY.!unicntions. enneci ,for instance~ we four.d out about it sb: !:!onths 1.:-:tcr, tmc th."l.t was when one of the people from Labrador who had served in a

February 8, 1977 . Tape No. 16?. !ffi.. GOUDIE: Newfoundland Regiment, walked· literally from St. Anthonv to what Has thPn the Com'Tlunity of Traveston, 1·1hich is directly across from !Ianpy Valley, walked by snowshoes. So that is only a little over thirty years ago. But we are develoning I think in Labrador and experiencing grmdng pains and perhaps the remarks on separatism are a result, or partly a result,of these growin~ pains. But just gettin~ hack to the noint of a lack of r,overnment presence in Labrador that has been changing I think durin~ the last numher of yeca.rs, recent number of years.

There are quite a number of government denartments renresented right now in the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area and I believe some of them in Labrador \,1est, I am sorry, in Henihek. They have not reached to any great degree in Coastal Labrador and I am not sure if it is proper for me to refer to the Throne Sneech during these remarks, but there is at least a suggestion there that that is going to change with particularly the Department of Rural Development moving in to make their nro~ramrnes more easily accessible to the people of Labrador.,and other government denartments as well. But I am sure that the hon.

Minister of Industrial and Rural Develonment will pay some attention to that when he stands in his place to offer his remarks. The hon. member for Eagle River C·~r. Strachan) su~?,ested that he does not believe in separatism and that unity is preferred. And I think that statement reflects the majority of opinion in Labrador. It certainly reflects mine. I do not think that senaratism is the answer either.

Separntism i~ a ner,ntive word to hegin with and I think we have had enough of negativism in the last number of years, narticular1y in terms nf the relationshin between Labrador and the Island pnrtinn of the l) • T0Vlnce. I am not suggesting for a minute that all of the solutions have been provided. I think some of them have and nhvinuslv there ar0 more to come.

February 9, 19 77 Tape no. 163 Page 1 - mw Mr. Goudie. But there is no point of my going through the remarks again, I do not think, about the disadvantages of becoming a territory or being a separate province. I think we have a population in Labrador now of roughly 45,000 pople. I believe- I can be corrected on this - but I believe that that is similar to the population which the province of Prince Edward Island had when it became a province. I do not know.

EUt I would suggest that since that province of Prince Edward Island could fit very well into one of our lakes, Lake Melville in Labrador, that it may not be very practical for a population of that size, in a territory of our size, 124,000 sq. miles - or it would be impossible to function as a separate province. The remarks that the Province, as it exists today, must pay more attention to Labrador, but not overdo it, I thinlr., are done with as well. I do not want to get into a speech here where I am completely repeating what the member for Eagle River (1'1r.

Strachan) has put forth, but just to add my remarks to his. I think we have had a tradition in Labrador where it became very easy for the native, if you will, of Labrador - when I say, native, I mean the two ethnic groups and the settler, if you will - who have always traditionally been in a position where ::1ey have been led by people who have moved in from outside of Labrador.

And I refer to the International Grenfell Association, the Horavian Mission and ministers of other f::tith 't<<ho rnovecl in, the Pudson Ray rompanv. the French Trading Company, the Dickie Lumber Company and so on. _Th~ people who came in, who lived and functioned in a different type of society than that which existed in Labrador, automatically. I think, became leaders. Th;,:: __ n•ay __ n_,?_t be: a•1 accurate statement 2 but in mv opjnion it is. And then you get into my district of Naskaupi, and the largest COffil7\\lni ty in th:1t district' llappy Valley - Goose nay.

It was found.:~J on a mi 1 i ta.ry operation. And without going into any great detail

February 9, 1977 Tape no. 163 Page 2 - mw Mr. Goudie. I would suggest that because of the nature of that - not industry, but that - well, let us call it an industry for the lack of a better word right now - the nature of that particular operation was so structured that people did not even have to make a decision basically on where they might buy an item or what their rates of pay were going to be. It was a completely military atmosphere and remained that way for thirty or thirty-odd years.

And the access to cheap goods - well, when I say cheap building material I mean literally that, because I would suggest that until very recently half of 'the homes in Happy Valley, which \o.-as then a civilian community, were built from materials which were scrounged from either the U.S.A.F., the R.C.A.F. or the Royal Air Force units which were stationed there. As a matter of fact,I bought one of these houses myself, and I will not go into that. A regional government for Labrador, I think, could very well be an answer. I am not completely familiar with what the implications are of a regional government.

I have some views on, I think, how it might function with representatives of departments, who have enough status, to make a decision without having to check with a. St. John's or Corner Brook office regarding every move or every decision they might take. Perhaps a budget to administer the various areas of Labrador may very well be a legitimate recommendation. But I think an educational system might very well be needed as well.

By an educational system I mean whereby existing programmes are explained- particularly the programmes under the Department of Industrial and Rural Development - expl8ined to the people of Labrador and how the people in that part of the Province may very well take advantage of these programmes, for their own benefit and

February 9, 1977 Tape 164 PK - 1 Mr. Goudie: for the benefit of their region. I think that is important. I think the people of Labrador want self-determination. I do not think that has to be manifested through any other form of government than exists right now. I think that this government is in a very enviable position, when you compare it with other provinces and other governments within Canada.

And that is >ve have a vast territory ~orth of here which, I believe, I am lee to understand,is rich in natural resources, A very small population, so the potential is there to almost develop-or to develop an almost ideal society, if you will, if it is handled properly. I would not quite care to define an ideal society because I do not know what makes an ideal society. But we have made~I think, the people of this Province, the governments of this Province,have made mistakes in the past.

The Island portion of the Province is pretty well populated at this point in time, Obviously there is room for more population, but when you consider that the Labrador

section of the Province is approximately two-thirds the size of the Province as a whole, or takes up two-thirds of the Province as a whole, the type of country up there, the fjords, the glaciers, the rivers, the woods, it is all there. It could very well be, for the lack of a better term,an ideal part of Canada in which to live, that is if you like six or seven months of brisk, cool ••eather. In the Summertime it gets up to, what? eighty, ninety, one hundred degrees. You are not certainly going to find that in Flordia these days I am told.

I think their products are freezing down there ,.,.ithout artificial refrigeration. I came across a little document the other day which bears something interesting figures,just for comparison purposes. This was from a Financial Post, Perhap~ the member from Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood) may very well be familiar with these figures. He may have written or provided all of the information for the articl~s, I do not knoH-no')I do not imagine he would have. It is dated October 19, 1928.

February 9, 1977 Tape 164 PK - 2 Mr. Goudie: Perhaps the hon. member is familiar with that particular document. MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. GOUDIE: It sounds like Sir Patrick McGrath. It could very well be. But at that point in time,just as an example, the headline reads, 11 Estimate Forests Have Timber Worth Over $250 million Dollars :• and that was in Labrador. ''Government Plans Survey o~ Wealth of Labrador area:' The enormous reserve of power is found in Labrador rivers. And they suggested in that

article that perhaps at some point in time paper mills may be run from these hydro resources. It took thrity years to reach the decision as to ownership, who owns Labrador? And that is a term I disagree with as well. I do not like the term 'own'. That would suggest to me that one part of the Province is inferior to the other. I do not believe that is the case. I do not think people feel that way. But the term,in my opinion, indicates that. I do not think that is right. I would also suggest, the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan) referred to the Ethnic groups, the two Ethnic groups in a couple of points in his remarks. One of them~the group that I am or have been more familiar with, at least for the most part of my life, is the Indian, Naskaupi and Montangnais Indians, travelling from Sept Isles to Davis Inlet and the community of North \-Jest River, and sometimes the community of Mud Lake. I travelled that part of inland Labrador which was trapped for twenty-odd years by my father and oldest brother. They have some interesting stories to relate about that particular lifestyle.

I am not going to get into them at this point in time, but I believe, and again I can be corrected, I believe that during the Privy Council hearings, at least the documents published in 1927 indicate that it was because of the sworn affadavits of these people,the Indian trappers and the Settler trappers, if you will, that were very influential in determining the border as it exists today. 4 "i 0

February 9, 1977 Tape 165 In-1 ~. GOUDIE: That is my understandin~, But I .iust wanted to I".ake a little brief reference to that parU cu] Cl!- point. I think the present government is beginninr: to ;:~Ciopt the attituile that in terms of our resource development,particnlarly in Lal-rador, the maximum benefit must be derived with the least possi~le environ~ental or sociological daTI"age.

I ~o not knm-r if the Mfni ster of tfines and Energy will cor1ment on that a.t some point in tiT!"e, Rut I beJieve that is the attitucle ~·mich is beinr expres~er'l torl.ay and I think that is the only practical attitude that any ~overnment, Fhether this f:!:OVernwent or the govern:rn .ents of the future, will take. ?~_ . SH'}-f0NS: T-Tou1 o the member repeat please? Hhat atti tucle v!as he referring to? ¥P.. GOFDIF: In teT!'ls of resource c1evelopment,the maximum benefit must be derived Fith the least possible environrn.ental or sociological clamage.

I think per'bc.tps I shou] d refer, in terms of resource devel opll'en t at least, to the Lahr<~dor Linerboard operation. It does not exist to any great degree in my particular district any more. And the people employed v:Hh that operation,r am suggesting,unless somethine c1rast:f .c happens to change H, l·dll not be el:'lp]oyecl by that particular operation after a very short peyjod of time. nut I do k.novJ that efforts a.re being- rnctc1e to estab1 isT-:. markets overse<1 .s. I believe the number of countries approached are in the vacinity of ten or eleven countries.

I do not think al 1 of tl1ese countries have indicated an interest or at ] east nnt a serirn.ts interest i.n purchasing lvood from I.abrador. Just on Fdr<~y of th:is hTeek - 2'- , matter of fact I made a brief announceJT1ent on it vestE'ril<~v. I rnenti .oned Thursday hut that has nm,;r been ch;m~rr. to Fridav- or Fr:i.dav of th:fs ~.;reek a specialist vith the T'pp;lr':"rncnt of Jnclnstrjnl T)evel.C'tprcnt ;mel SOT'le other reop]e \'jll be grdnr- int0 ~l<lf'PY tT:=!l.lC"y-('nC~se n:1v to he~in nreJ il'Tlinary Parle on 471

February 9, 1977 Ta.pe 165 IB-2 MP. G0t11IE: concerned, and that is the Labrador Forest Products I believe. Rver VanBecke. rm. r.otrniE : Yes : that is right. Fyer VanHecke is the name of the gentle~an. People may he more familiar with that name as opposed to his company naf!le. There are problelT's Pith that operation in terns of the prices, I think, bei_ng offered for wood and the benefi.ts that the workers can get from these prices. It is straining relation- ships, I think, at this point in UMe.

But I believe that the correct attitude was explained to at least two groups l•rhich have come fiN·'ll here to tr~eet t-rith coi!"mittees of Cabinet, for instance, in the Jast six Months. That is that government should not become involved in running a business of that nature. I believe that is the Eentii:~ent expresse~ hy the hon. the Preirjer during one of these f!leetings • PRE~!IEP. ¥00PES : • \nd by the group. }'R. C-.OTIDIE: .1\nd by the ~roup the'[!"t!'el ves, yes. But that the: people thei!"selves should become involved.

So this remains to be seen now whether these European markets can be tapped into practically-and whether or. not a feasible operation can begin and continue in the Lai<-e r'elville are~ lJecause there certainly WNtld not be any point in having a repetition of the operation of the Labr.a~or Linerboari' operations: in the Lake Jl~elvHle area.

There are lots of other resources wh1ch could be referred to'lbut I thin'!-': another ::~reel r.•hj ch should be crrnsiderecl by anyone ,.rho addresses himself or herself to thjs Motion, is the difference in traditional fundinf, Phich ha~ been rut into I.abrC"-c'lor. r.ommunities North of the Hamilton Inlet,frr in~tance,henefit ~irectly from federal fundjng tCl native rroups, to the Inuit ;mel the TncH:m groups. One cornmun1ty South of the IIm~Hton TnJet, Jnack T:ick]e r.:1inly also henef:Us. And there FcrE> :1 nunher of circ:ttT"stnnces \,•hich djc-.te1ted that cof:'r.mnity beinp sc1ectl!d. !. ~. ') t ' "

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 166 NM- 1 MR. GOUDIE: But in addition to that, what that has done with that native funding going in annually to these communities in Northern Coastal Labrador~if you will, a situation has developed where residents South of the Hamilton Inlet are becoming a little concerned in that they do not seem to be deriv~ng the same amount of benefits that communities and individuals in the Northern

section of that nart of the Province derive. That I think has become, or is perhaps about to become, an issue as v.rell. It 1.;ras I l:nm·J Mentioned, I referred earlier to the recent meeting of the Labrador Resources Advisory Council, it was brought un there. I do not think there is going to be a division. I think people have gotten beyond that stage, at least just making my judgement on the remarks put forth at that meeting. I think people are above that now, the people of Northern and Southern Labrador.

But that is an area of concern and I will suggest to the government that Hhen these lying departments ·are moved in, I assume that is going to be not too far in the future, that particular attention be paid to the Southern Coasta 1

section of Labrador. CAPT. vnnsnR: Could the hon. memher? · I do not want to distract his train <·f thin~dng but 1·7hen you refer to the Southern Lahrador is not Black Tickle in Southern Labrador? Black Tickle is south of Domino and the only other community that I know north of Northwest River which would be included in that would be Rigolet.And Black Tickle is now in Southern Labrador and that assistance is given to Black Tickle? MR. r,mmn:: n!:av, I Fill try :md ~xnlain that. The han. member is correct.

Black Ti.ckle is south of the Earnilton Inlet but as I mentioned a little earlier it Has very difficult because of the - at least I am told - because of the location of that particular community and the roc1~v terr.1.in, difficult to convince.I sunnose,C'ntrPprenPttrs to- }fR. COlTDTE : Y(•s, tn provide .1 nunilH•r of hPneflts to the comnnmi.ty such as shonpin~ f;H·iliti~>s :1nd so on. i\lthour:h thPrc was one r;cntleman , ~, 'J '1 ' . '

February 9, 1977 Tape No. 166 NM- 2 MR. GOUDIE: operating a business there I believe until just very recently. There were some other problems as well so I suppose some person in their ,.,isdom decided that Black Tickle should fit under this native fundinr,,although I do not think, again I could be corrected, but I do not think there is a pure native of either of the two ethnic groups in that community. I think that may have clarified the hon. member's point, I am not sure.

I did mention earlier that nerhans this government and I would hope future governments has taken sorre and will take more positive stens in terms of establishing a government presence and providing the services of government to t~e Labrador portion of the Province. I think one very imnortant move that was made by this government iust last year, and I hone will be made again next year and that has been the funding of the Labrador Resources Advisory Council.

I think it has become a very imoortant forum for the people · ~of Labrador including the 'l)eople from Henihek district, from the Labrador City, ~-Tabush and Churchill Falls areas, the industrial areas of Labrador, because they have had representatives to meetings of that particular committee. But it has become a forum for the thoughts and feelings of Labrador and I am not going to apologize for any of the thoughts and feelings expressed at these meetings.

I think I have indicated that some of the thoughts put forth have been based on frustration, perhaps on a lack of understanding in many '..rays of some of the uniaue nroblems we have in that part of the Province. I am not suggestinr, the people are unique or anythinP, like that,but I think thev arr. different than the maiority of residents in the Province as a whole. !. _, ' t ~ ' t

February 9, 1977 Tape no • 167 Page 1 - mw Mr. Goudie. So that is one type of positive move, I think, that has been made, and I feel should continue to be made in the future. I refer briefly to some measures proposed in the Throne Speech, and I believe at least two han. ministers will be addressing themselves to these proposed measures when their make their remarks on the present motion. I believe there is, through the carrying out of a feasibility study and the efforts to find markets overseas for wood, there is a desire to improve the economic base of the Lake Melville area.

Certainly it cannot very well get any worseJI do not think, not in terms of industry at least. There is none left in the Lake Helville area and the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area as far as I am concerned. The recent interim subsidiary agreement of eight points, which the han. Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs helped negotiate, is a positive move, and because of the nature of that agreement, I do not think the provincial government can take all the credit for that particular effort. Obviously the federal government was very much involved in this as well.

And I think that is something that has to happen in the future as well, and that is that rather than the federal and the provincial government, in some ways, working at odds against each other, that they should reconsider their responsibilities, not only to Labrador but to any part of the country,and perhaps learn, if you will, to co-operate a little more fully for the benefit of the provinces as a whole, and perhaps for the benefit of some of the people, particular people, of the provinces as a whole. In summing up, Mr. Speaker. I am not sure I agree completely - and I think the member for Eagle River (Hr.

Strachan) made reference to this at a couple of points in his remarks - I am not sure that I agree that communities of Labrador or the people of Labrador should be studiPd any more. lle indicated that some people had come in

February 9, 1977 Tape no. 167 Page 2 - mw Mr. Goudie. to Labrador and even studied the lengths of noses. I did not realize that that had taken place, but I can imagine that it could very well happen and did happen. I suppose the old story of an anthropologist being a member of each family of the North is very well applied at some points in time to the people of Labrador, because there have been so many people in. The Royal Commission- that, ·I think, is one of the better documents produced based on the study of the conditions, the peofle, the feelings of Labrador.

I do not think that it is necessary for another study to be made. And well when the vote is called, if a vote is called, I assume there will be, I will stand in my place and vote according to my conscience. And that very briefly, }1r. Speaker, is the number of thoughts I have on Labrador and on the particular motion put to the House by the member for Eagle River (Mr. Stracha~. I must commend him for the initiative he has taken in presenting this motion to the House. I think it is going to spark some very interesting debate at some points along the way.

I look forward to remarks which other hon. members are going to make. Thank you. SOME HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Hr. Speaker, I - SOME HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUNDRIGA.."l": I did not intend to start off this early this afternoon, because I anticipated some hon. members from across the way would have wanted to carry the ball for the rest of the afternoon. HR. ROBERTS: He want to htar you make a fool of yourself. HR. LUNDRIGAN: Is that right? Hr. Speaker, I would be

February 9, 1977, Tape 168, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: a little bit humble about saying anything. As a matter of fact,I am becoming a great listener on Labrador and I believe perhaps I have more to learn than I can impart. Maybe that is the stance I will take throughout the Whole of this debate. I would say I am no more qualified to speak on Labrador than Warren Allmand is C(ualified to speak on Labrador or parts of the North.,and consequently maybe I should not say a word.

As a matter of fact, I perhaps think we should sit back and listen to input from members like the distinguished gentleman who just spoke and the previous members because these people have a tremendous background knowledge and I am absolutely a rookie.

The most I know about Labrador specifically, I have picked up from bits and pieces of experience from the background my family had in fishing, my father had in the lumber business in Ugjoktok Bay, and as the hon. member from the adjacent district- was it? - or a little to the North said, in my fishing experience in Labrador which goes back beyond the Adlatok even to the Eagle River, but not under the auspices of the Department of National Defence. So I hope my colleague from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) will get up and clarify that point as well.

I have no great background,! am saying, in matters pertaining to Labrador. I am not conversant with the communities to the extent that han. members are from Labrador, the member ~.rho spoke from Naskaupi, the previous member from Eagle River, are ~eonle who, to one degree or another, have a tremendous l:>ackground. Other han. members, I believe the hon. the member for Fogo has a background,and I hope he will use the occasion in the House to impart some of his feelings on Lahrador to the House, and I am sure he \vill.

Ar,ain, we have the former Premier who ohvi ously, in Hes tern L:thrnd or. was in power at the time when some of the developments took place there. And !. ..., .. ~ t t ~

February 9, 1977, Tape 168, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUNDRIGAN: he should not raise a question to the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) about why such-and-such agreements were not put in place, why such-and-such requirements were not put in place to force the Iron Ore Company of Canada or other companies to insure that we had the maximum benefits. He should be an expert on questions of that nature and should be able to tell the House why or why not he did not take certain initiatives.

I sort of get a little small bit, perhaps, annoyed and it hits me the wrong way when I hear somebody who had twenty '/ears of experience in matters pertaining to Labrador, Western Labrador, Coastal Labrador~who stands up here with a fresh new attitude and idealistic says, "\Vhy cannot we bring in a little bit and piece of legislation that will clarify and cure a particular point1" It is the kind of political attitude Which I believe the people of coastal Labrador are particularly concerned about and particularly - what is the word? - particularly apprehensive about or critical of and - MR. HICKHAN: Resentful. MR.

LUNDRIGAN: - basically they d