Manitoba Hansard — 4 August 1988 (Sitting 10, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-10

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 10 - 1:30 p.m., THURSDAY, AUGUST 4, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENC Y ALCOCK, Reg Osborne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Sieve Thompson BURRE LL, Parker Swan River CAR R, James Fort Rouge CA RSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CH ARLES , Gwen Selkirk CHEE MA, Gulzar Kildonan CHO RNOPYSKI, William Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN, Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKA CH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER , Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER , Herold, L.

Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNS T, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Vir den GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER , Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ellice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed Assiniboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon.

Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHE LSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Rad isson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROC AN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBE RAL LIBE RAL NDP PC LIBE RAL LIBE RAL LIBE RAL LIBE RAL LIBE RAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBE RAL PC LIBE RAL PC PC LIBE RAL NDP PC PC LIBE RAL PC LIBE RAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBE RAL LIBE RAL NDP LIBE RAL PC PC LIBE RAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBE RAL PC NDP PC PC PC LIBE RAL NDP LIBE RAL NDP NDP LIBE RAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thu rsday, August 4, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PR AYERS ROU TINE PRO CEEDINGS MINI STERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Natural Resources Development Act): Mr. Speaker, I wou ld lik e to table the report of Channel Area Loggers for 19 86-87. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the report for the Teachers' Reti rement Allowances Fund Board ending Decem ber 31, 19 87.

I would also like to table the Annual Financial Repor t for Brandon University for the year ended March 31, 19 87. In addition, I would also like to table the Public Schools Finance Board Annual Report ended March 31, 19 87. Mr. Speaker: Hon ourable Mem bers, pursuant to

Section 99(1) of The Election Finances Act, I am pleased to table

Part 1 of the annual report relating to that Act Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker, I am tabling today one copy of the roll of statutes to be re-enacted by Bill No. 4, The Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 88, Act. That roll is in fact the large three -ring binder that the Clerk already has on the Table. Mr. Speaker, I wish also to table the

schedule to Bill No. 5, The Statute Re-enactment Act, 19 88. lt is the smaller tartan binder that is al ready on the Table. 1 wish to thank all

Partie s and the Clerk for their cooperation. • (13 35) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon) introduced, by leave, Bill No. 13 , The Manitoba Hydro Amend ment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur I'Hydro-Manitoba. MOTION presented. Mr. Storie: As is customary, I wou ld like to introd uce this piece of legisla tion.

I would like to say at the outset that I am particularly proud as a Northerner and as one of many Manitobans who view Manitoba Hydro as an important soverei gn entity within the Province of Manito ba, an entity which 296 has served the consumers of this province and industry in this province for decades with distinction, with reliable service, an entity which I belie ve and many Manitobans belie ve has the potential to not only continue to provide Manitobans with stability in terms of energy supply, but also has the potential of being an engine for economic growth, economic diversification in this province.

This particular legislation is introduced by the New De mocratic Party and myself because of our deep, abiding and sincere concern over the implications of the Free Trade Agreement. The Minister of Ener gy (Mr. Neuf eld) is in possession of a report from his own department which would tell Manitobans and Canadians that if the Free Trade Agreement had been a realit y in the years in which Canada enjoyed a two-price energy syste m, consumers would have been charged an extra $50 billio n plus -(Interject ion)-$50 billion more for their energy . That, in and of itself, is justification for this Bill.

However, I belie ve that the justification for this Bill also lies in the fact that constitutionally Manitoba has the statutory obligation, the constitutional oblig ation to manage Hydro in a way which befits Manitobans, not the federal Govern ment, not other entitie s, not the United States of America. This particu lar legislation proposes to do fou r separate things. First, it makes clear to all tha t the conditions of sale of electric power to the United States will be established by the Manitoba Government The criteria for those sales will be esta blished by the Lieut enant-Governor-in-Council.

We bel ieve that the question of surplus for the use of Manitobans and other Canadians is important, and we intend to enshrine the right of Manitoba Hydro to make those decisions. We bel ieve that Manitobans and Canadians need to have the assurance that their interests in energy will be protected first, not last. I want to make it clear that Manitoba maintains jurisdiction over Manitoba Hydro, notwithstanding the Free Trade Agreement, and that, notwithstanding the Free Trade Agreement, we can use Manitoba Hydro for the development of our economy in the Province of Manitoba at our discretion. Mr.

Speaker: I would like to rem ind all Honourable Mem bers that Rule 85 in our Rules states quite clearly that the Honourable Member is given an opportunity to ex plain a little bit about the Bill, with its introd uction, as would enable the House to better understand the purpose of the Bill. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. • (13 40) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Respite Care - Funding Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My que stion is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Whe never Tory Govern ments take power in the Province of Manitoba, Manitobans worry. They worry

Thu rsday, August 4, 1988 about the level of social services, especially to those who are handicapped, to those who are particularly vulnerable, and indeed to our seniors. These fears are legitima te. We now know, for ex ample, that the respite care program has been seve rely rest ricted . As a result, no new cases are being accepted and waiting lists are being esta blished. I ask the First Minister: Is this an indication of the approach to be taken in the Budget which will be tabled in this House on Monday next? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I want to correct a number of parts of the

preamble that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) put on the record. Firstly, she has put forth a sugges tion that some measures were taken as a result of a cutback or a reduction in budget by this Tory administration in the respite care program. I would want to say that no such cutback or no such red uction was made by this admin istra tion . So she is com ing from wrong information to beg in with. Secondly, she has sugge sted that because her critic, the Mem ber for Ellice (Ms.

Gray)-I am surprised she would not let her ask the que stion-since she was the one who went to the media and raised the issue, I am surprised that she would not have let her do it because she may have been better informed on it. The Memb er for Ellice, for instance, might have been informed -1 do not know if she is, but cert ainly the Leader of the Opposition is not-that there was a follow up memo because of the concern of the department to the effect that that reduction or that inability to take care of all cases might have.

As I say, it was not because of a red uction in budget or any cutback. lt was as a result of the fact that they had spent in the first three months of the year almost 60 percent of their budget for the entire year. So the administration in the department was attem pting to make some moves to try and recognize the fiscal crunch that they might reach eventually.

However, after that memo that she refers to, the memo of June 2, after further consid era tion and discussion in the department, the department issued a further memo on July 13 with instructions that no family would be left in a detrimental situation as a result of the lack of funds tha t was in the Budg et from the previous NDP administration. They also indicated that reg ional offices should priorize cases as they come in and that no family would be left in a detrimental situation, as I indicated . In rare instances, as a result of the information we have, are families having to wait.

New families have, in fact, received servi ces since the memo was originally issued. So I want to reassure both the Leader of the Opposition and the people of Manitoba-no reductions have taken place as a result of this Conservat ive administration. The measure was an administrative one taken because of . . .-(inaudible)-. . . by the previous NDP Budget. Mrs. Carstairs: Can the First Minister inform this House that additional funds have been made available for 297 respite care above and beyond the $500 ,000 allotted to this particular department? * (13 45) Mr.

Filmon: The Leader of the Opposition should know full wel l-she has been here for two years -that we have not yet released our Estimates of Expenditure for the departments and that when those Estimates are released , there will be an opportunity to question the Minister here in the Leg islature, in committee, on those Estimates, to find out all the details about the allocation of all of the funds within her budget.

As a result, she will then know the amount of funds that have been allocated for that respite care program and she will have an opportunity to discuss in deba te whether or not that is an appropriate amount.

But I want to repeat, for her knowledge, the assurance that I gave her earl ier that no family will be left in a detri mental situation as a result of the fact that they have already spent 60 percent of the funds that had been previousl y all ocated by the previous NDP administration, and that reg ional offices are priorizing the cases as they come in, and that only in rare circumstances would a family even have to wait - Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs). Mr. Filmon: -for respite care. Th ose are the assurances that I know she will be interested in hearing. Mrs.

Carstairs: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If we could just get short answers.-(I nterjection)-We got it twice, three times. Respite Care Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , my qu est ion is to the Min ister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson). Did the Minister approve a memo which left her department on the 2nd of June and read : "Due to our present financial situation and lack of Budg et for 19 88- 89, do not accept any new children/families for the Family Support Program ."? Did she allow that memo to go out of her department? Hon.

Cha rlot te Oleson (Minis ter of Co mmunity Services): I did not sign the memo that went out on that subject. The Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) should be aware that many memos were sent out, during the first part of the time when we were in office, to all departments. Nobody is picking on this particular situation.

The memos went out to all departments tel ling them that they were to operate as if they working on the '87-88 Budget. lt was a cautionary note to warn them that they must be careful and responsible and then when the Budget for '88-89 is approved , then they will know what they have to spend. A se cond memo was sent out, as the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) has indicated, because someone expressed

Thur sday, Augu st 4, 1988 concern in the department that there may be difficulties from the first memo. So a second memo was sent out from the same department suggesting that if there were difficulties, if families were going to be at risk because of this first memo, to be sure and monitor it carefully and make sure that no one was at risk. I understan d, in ques tioning my department, there have been new families allowed to have resp ite care since those memos were sent out.

Mrs Carstairs: A further quest ion to the Minister of Community Services: Can the Minister inform the House how many people in this province are on a waiting list for respite care; particularly, how many of those individuals are in urgent need of respite care? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker , to the Leader of the Opposition: In inquiring of my de partment, I discovered that there are agencies with no one on the waiting list and that there are some with waiting lists, but it is quite normal at this time of year, in holiday time, to have waiting lists.

I will assure her, and can assure her, that no one who is in desperate need is being denie d service. Pharmacare Deductible Increase Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). I watched with some amusement yesterda y when the Minister for Seni ors (Mr. Neuf eld) was required to be held accountable for a 13 percent increase when I knew of a 50 percent increase from the other administration in which I had sat in this House. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) why, when an invest igation is going on with regard to the use of Pharma cards, particularly for our senior people and for tho se who are primarily in need , why he would introduce at this point in time an increase of 13 percent, which is almost 9 percent to 10 percent higher than the rates of increases in pensions for those same individuals? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, first and foremost, we would prefer not to have to pass along any portion of the increased costs of Pharmacare to anybody.

We would prefer not to have to charge families any additional amount on the ded ucti ble for Pharmacare, because we want to provide them with all of the services possible within our financial means. The difficulty we have is the same difficulty that the previous Government had, and that is that the costs of Pharmacare are going up dramatically. As a result, we have to continue to collect some portion of those increases because certainly all of the increases are not being passed along. The Government is continuing to take a bigger and a bigger por tion of the Pharmacare costs.

The fact of the matter is, though, that some portion had to be recove red . We examined very, very carefully the finances of the province and they had been le ft in desperate circumstances as a result of the NDP's waste and mismanagement for six-and-a-half years. 298 In looking at the matter, we felt that the seniors could absorb some increase over a period of time and it has been since 19 86 that the last increase in deductible was passed along. That increase was 50 percent at that time in 19 86 by the previous administration.

This increase of between 12 percent and 13 percent was dete rmined to be something that seniors could live with. As I indicated, we would prefer to pass along none, but seniors acknowledge that they would like to pay their reasonable share and this kind of an increase is as low as we can make it, bel ieve me. * (1 350) Multiculturalism Task Force Report Release Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Culture, Herita ge and Recreat ion (Mrs. Mitchelson).

Hundreds of thousands of Manitobans, and indeed , thousands of tourists are joining every Member of this Legislature in enjoying the tremendous celebra tion of our culture when they are atten ding Folklorama. We are all looking a little tired, I think, from the celebra tion. I bel ieve that all Parties in this Chamber recognize and bel ieve that this is a multicultural province. However, that is where it is when it comes to the Government and the Mem bers across the way.

Last we ek, the Premier and his Government issued a Throne Speech that did not have one mention of multicultural legislation programs, priorities, budget or initiatives. My que stion to the Minister is: Since the task force report-made available, I think, in Ma y of '87-has completed its work, can the Minister tell us if the report is finished, has she received it, when will she be releasing it, and what act ion will she be ta king on the recommendations? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I would like to thank the Member for Logan (Ms.

Hemphill) for asking me my very first question in this House. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker , I would like to indicate to the Mem ber for Logan and to the House that the task force that was initia ted under the previous administration back in Ma y of 19 87, I belie ve, was supposed to be finished its work and have its final report in in February of 19 88. Mr. Speaker, when the election was called , when the Government was defea ted , that report was not yet in to the previous administration.

That report was put on hold by the NDP Go vern ment of the Day dur ing the elec tion campaign. Since we have taken over Govern ment, Mr. Speaker, I have reque sted that the task force complete their work as quickly as possible. I do want to indicate to the House that they had written to me and asked for

Thur sday, August 4, 1988 exten sion to October of this year to complete their report. I have indicated to them that I am not going to allow that to happen. I want the results of that report to me. They are going to be with me within the next week or so. I am mee ting with that task force this Saturday to discuss the issues with them. Ms. Hemphill: I wonder, if the Minister is so interested in seeing the report, why has she waited two months to talk to the members of the task force. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Memb er for Logan (Ms. Hemphill), with a question. * ( 1355) Ms. Hemphill: Mr.

Speaker, I think that every Member of this House knows that when an elect ion is on, any Government that deals with major studies of importance to the Province of Manitoba would be irresponsible to do it in the middle of an elec tion and they know that. Multiculturalism Policy Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Speaking of the elect ion, many representa tives of the ethnocultural community pressed this now Premier (Mr. Filmon) and this Government on what their multicultur al policies were and what initiatives they would take, and they did not get an answer. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Mem ber have a question? Ms.

Hemphill: And now we know why-because they have no plans. Mr. Speaker, my quest ion to the Minister of Cultur e, Her itage and Recreat ion (Mrs. Mitchelson) is: Will you please tell over half the people of the Province of Manitoba, waiting to hear what initiatives you are taking in these areas, what you are going to do in the areas to approve Affirmative Action, to bring in contract compliance, to bring in legisla tion, to bring in a multicultural Act to deal with the serious question of accreditation to continue that process that we had begun, to deal with the issue of- Mr. Speaker: Order. Ma.

Hemphill: -assets to education and training across- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Minister of Cultur e, Herita ge and Recreat ion. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do want to indicate that the action we have taken as a Government since we were el ected is positive action towards the multicu ltural community.

I have asked for the task force to complete its work and present that to me within the next we ek, and that will be done. 299 We have asked the Provincial Auditor to go in and look at MIC because people from the et hnic community have come to me with their concerns. Their concerns are that there has been turmoil going on within MI C for a period of time and they are starting to come forward on a confidential basis and express those concerns to me as a Minister.

I have taken action, and when we have the results of the revie w in our hands at the end of August , we will be discussing with the multicultural community first, with the Leg islature and with the people of Manitoba what action we are going to be taking. Ms. Hemphill: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I want to indicate to the Minister that we agree with the review that is being undertak en, but I also want to tell her that they want jobs and training, too, not just studies and reviews and audits. My last supplementary to the Minister -first of all, I would like to take one moment to commend . . . Hon.

Jamea McCrae (Government House Leader): On a point of order. Ms. Hemphill: I was going to commend the Speaker. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker , I bel ieve all Members of the House have been patient with the Honourable Mem ber for Logan (Ms. Hemphill) in putting her questions. The Mem ber for Logan also knows that certainly, with supplementary questions, no

preamble is even required and I think we have been more than patient with the Honourable Memb er. I am asking for your assistance, Mr. Speaker, in re minding her-as you have already done previously in this portion of the proceedings-that long questions do tend to lead to long answers. For my part, I have asked the Members on this side of the House to attempt to observe the brevity rule, and there are times when long ques tions do lead to long answers. I am asking you to remind the Honourable Member for Logan and all Honourable Mem bers about that point. Mr.

Speaker: I would like to thank the Government House Leader. lt is a fact that a supplementary question does not need a pream ble. Govt. Advertising - Ethnic Media Ms.

Maureen Hemphill (Logan): My question to the Minister is: In light of the fact that the Gover nment puts out a lot of advert ising and in light of the fact that the Government puts out press releases and information about Government programs that are very important to the people of Manitoba, will the Minister please make a commitment to all members of the et hnic cultural media and local community newspapers: (1) that they will share in the advertising that the Govern ment puts out; the y will be put on the list and they will receive adver tising for their radio and newspapers; and (2) that the y will receive access to all inf ormation about Government programs and the y will receive all Government press releases to inform them of what the Government is doing?

Thu rsday, Aug ust 4, 1988 Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Speaker, the first thing I want to do with the et hnic media is meet with them and ask them what the previous administration did in those respects, and see whether we can improve on what the NDP Govern ment did as far as adver tising with the et hnic media.

I want to indicate to you that we are going to sit down with the ethnic community, and I am going to meet with every group and organization in the et hnic community whether they belong to MIC or not, get down to the grass-roots level and find out from them what they want from us as a Government. We are going to work in cooperation with them to ensure that we are mee ting their needs. * ( 14 00) Respite Care - Eligibility Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): Mr. Speaker , my que stion is for the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson).

Could the Minister tell this House what eligibili ty criteria children's special services follow and who is their target population? Hon. Char lotte Oleson (Min ister of Com munity Services): The Family Support Fund is the fund which supports respite care, child de vel opment programs, transportation and supplies to families with children with di sabil ity. I might ad d, for the Member's information, that in '87-88, over 700 hundred families receiv ed services from this fund at a cost of over $1. 2 million.

Ther e is another fund called the Add itional Care and Support Fund which is a support to families ab ove and beyond the Family Sup port Fund, and in '87-88, this fund was able to help 69 familie s throughout the province with a cost of up to $500,000.00. Ms. Gray: A supplem entary for the Min ister of Community Services. Could the Minister elabor ate on what specific type of disabil ities would fall in the eligibili ty criteria for respite care and children's special services? Mrs.

Oleson: For the most part, this helps in respite care to families who have mentally handicapped children in their home and in other cases, of course, which merit assistance also. Ms. Gray: A third supplementary to the same Minister. Given the First Minister's (Mr. Filmon) remarks and information that the Minister of Community Services (Mrs.

Oleson) and the fact the Govern ment on the other side are aware that there is a deficit in budgets within the first quarter of the fiscal year, and giv en that that side of the Government reports that they are pro-active, could the Minister of Community Ser vices then tell us, in the last three months, what pro-active steps she has taken , knowing of this deficit financing, to ensure that the basic services of respite care, day programs and residential care are maintained in the reg ions? 300 Mrs. Oleson: I bel ieve that question has already been answered in previous questions. The First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) gave the answer; I have given the answer. People are receiving care, and I cannot divulge any information further than that as to dollars until after the Budget. Meech Lake Accord - Protection Women's Rights Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My quest ion is to the Honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon). We were a little surprised on the Liberal side of the House that in speaking for we ll more than an hour yesterd ay, the First Minister did not mention the 19 87 Constitutional Accord or his own Party's position.

In light of the fact that more and more Manitobans are expressing their opposition to the Accord, my question to the First Minister is very simple and it is this: Does the Firs t Min ister belie ve that the Constit utional Accord currently drafted adequa tely protects the rights of women, rights which are currently guaranteed by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freed oms? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I thank the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Carr) for that question.

He seems to be a single-issue Mem ber since he asked questions about Meech Lake and those have been the only questions he has asked in this House. I gue ss that is as far as he has gone in the schooling that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) has been giving him. He gets to the next step when they get to their next series of briefings. With regard to the Meech Lake Constitutional Accord, I have indicated previously to this Memb er and to the public and to the media that we are supportive of the Meech Lake Accord in principle but we are prepared to listen to the people.

We have met with individual groups of people. We have met with people throughout society, including women 's groups who have expressed concern about their rights as they might be affected by the Meech Lake Accord, their rights under the Constitution. We have looked at-they have been happy to share with us-the legal opinions that they have with respect to that particular issue.

I might say that we have seen legal opinions on the other side of the issue by constitutional experts, by le gal experts that have given other views with respect to the protect ion of wom en's rights unde r the Constitution, vis-a-vis the Meech Lake Accord. This is the reason why we will have full and complete and open public hearings, so that both sides, there are many different opinions on that issue and the y will be able to be expressed . Meech lake Accord - Amending Formula Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary to the Premier, and I thank him for

Thur sday, August 4, 1988 the compliment. I do not think it is such a bad thing that there are those on this side of the House who care about the most important constitutional amendment we have seen in a decade or more. My supplementary to the Premier is this, and I hope we can get an answer: Does the Fi rst Minister agree with the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce that the amending form ula, as curr ently dr afted , puts this country in a strait-jacket from which it can never escape? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I remind the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Carr) that the Meech Lake Accord, as it is presently constituted , was achieved as a result of the deli bera tions of 10 premiers and the federal Government, all of whom came to a consensus on a major issue such as the Meech Lake Accord by which many, many different issues were consi dered and which ultima tely arriv ed at a compr omise which Queb ec and all of the other provinces could accept for Quebec's signature on the Constitution. Tha t was a remarkable achievement, and many people said that kind of unanimity could not be achieved .

So for someone to say that it would be impossible, under the proposed amending formula, for all provinces and the fed eral Govern ment to ag ree on futur e const itutional amend ments or amend ments to the structure and nature of our institutions in this country, I do not think it is a reasonable thing to say because the Meech Lake Accord itself puts the lie to that sugges tion. Mr. Carr: Mr.

Speaker , with a supplementary to the First Minister: The Fi rst Minister knows full we ll that it is much easier to get an agreement when you are giving powers away than it is to get agreement when you are taking powers back. The Premier will also know that 52 percent of the country's population may have something to say about 11 men locked up in a room until four in the morning. My question is this-and the reason we ask so many questions is because we get so few ans wers. Does the First Minister agree - Mr. Speaker: Ord er, ple ase. The Ho nourable Government House Leader. Hon.

James McCrae (Gove rnment House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I know the Honourable Member was about to get to his questions, but it is too bad he had to wait until I rose to my feet to get on with his question. * ( 1 41 0) Mr. Carr: Does the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) agree with many social groups in Manitoba that the spending power provisions in the 19 87 Constitutional Accord could lead to a hodgepodge of social servi ces across this country? Mr. Filmon: To begin with, Mr.

Speaker, I will address the silliness of the sugges tion that the Accord was only 301 arrived at because 11 men were locked up in a room until 4 a.m. What the Deputy Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Carr) sugge sts, of course, is that nothing took place before that, that there was a vacuum, and that one even ing they all got together and devised the Meech Lake Accord. He totally ignores the fact that these discussions, these negotia tions go back until the early Sevent ies. They were generated by Pierre Trudeau's desire to have the Constitution changed and all members and all parts of the country included and so on.

They totally ignore the fact that these First Ministers, these 11 , have worked on it with their Govern ments, their legal advisers, their constitutiona l advisers for two years lead ing up to the final signing of that Accord. In fact, there was a great deal of informa tion, di scus sion, negotiation and consideration given to that. So his sugges tion that it all happened by going till four in the morning and the 11 First Ministers is absolute nonsense. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Reg Alcock (Opp osition House Leader): Mr. Speaker , on a point of order.

I agree with the Honourable House Leader for the Opposition that long quest ions produce long answers, but non-answers also produce long . . . . Mr. Speaker: I would like to remind all Honourable Members that questions should be brief and that answers should also be brief. The Brick Warehouse - Charges Mr. Jim Maloway (Eimwood): My que stion is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). In view of the fact that Brick Ware house of Alberta has just today opened a store in Brandon West, the constituency of the Attorney-General (Mr.

McCrae), and right under the nose of the Attorney-General, and given that Brick Ware house has been in breach of

Section 3.2 of The Busine ss Names Reg istration Act now for the past 81 days, would the Premier instruct the Attorney-General to lay charges agains t Brick Warehouse of Alberta and, if not, why not? Hon. James McCrae {Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) would do well to recognize the legal complexitie s of this issue and perhaps refrain from, on a daily basis, attempting to resolve this question by political means which may not be the best means of doing that. The prob lem is in deed a problem.

I have two departments involved in this matter, and both of them are taking the matter very seriously and working very hard to find some resolution to this problem. I honestly think the Honourable Member is doing no one any favours by raising this matter today. Mr. Maloway: On Friday, in response to my question, the Attorney-General evaded my direct question. He said: "Our law is here and it is my duty to uphold the •

Thur sday, Aug ust 4, 1988 law." I would like to know, if it is his duty to uphold the law of this province, why is he not prepared to press charges? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, there has been a change of Gover nment in this province. The new Government in this province is not so interested in driving busine ss operations out of this province and putting people out of work. We feel this is a very important matter. We have a company operating in Manitoba for 28 years. We have a law in our province, and the matter is very much under consideration by my department.

The Honourable Mem ber see ks to make a political matter out of this. I am te lling the Honourable Mem ber that if he had his way, what we would have is a lot fewer busine sses operating in this province and a lot fewer ordinary Manitobans working in this province and providing a living for their families. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Maloway: A final supplementar y: At no time has anyone sugge sted that the Brick Warehouse not be allowed to operate in Manitoba.

We have suggested that they use another name other than Brick Warehouse, use their California name that they apply to 30 of their stores in California. My qu estion to the Attorney-General on Friday, and the Att orney-General res ponde d , he state d: "The Alberta Brick Warehouse is not regi stered under The Corporations Act of Manitoba, and my department is acting on the issue." When will he press charges? Mr. McCrae: I bel ieve, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member has identif ied the problem.

The point is his raising questions about it in Question Period at this point, while the matter is under very intense examination and consider ation and dis cussion in my two departments, including the parties involved in the dispute, I really do not think that is helping us. I would like very much to get to a resolution of this matter as quickly as possible so that both businesses can find a way to do business in this province. This province is open for business under this new Government in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. We are not here to drive busine sses out. The Honourable Mem ber should understand that.

Free Trade Agreement Commodity Producers Protection Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), and it concerns the potential disadvantaged Manitobans in relation to the Free Trade Agre ement. Mr.

Speaker, yesterda y in response to que stions that I asked the First Minister concerning the $28 million in the six-year program for the grape aid, his response to protecting our concerned agricultu ral producers is that, and I quote from Hansard , "Our farm community and every single commodity group represe nted under 302 the Keystone Agricultur al Producers supports the Free Trade Agree ment." Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to table this.

I am not sure of the procedures here, but in light of the Canadian Federa tion of Agricultu re's position which in part says they cannot support the Free Trade Agre ement without action, and they mention the frustration and the lack of action by Governments to protect them on the downside, I am prepared to submit this if they want to look at it.

Again, my que stion is to the First Minister: In light of the fact there may be groups in Manitoba that have a problem, that are disadvantaged , will the First Minister recognize and take some positive action to protect their rights under the impending free trade legislation? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The Mem ber for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus) has one supporter over there anyway. I just want to point out, Mr.

Speaker, that the Canadian Federat ion of Agriculture is different from the Keystone Agricultural Producers, and clearly yesterd ay, as he read it, I referred to the Keystone Agricultural Producers and every commodity group represented under the Keystone Agricultur al Prod ucers. I am speaking on behalf of Manitobans; I am speaking on behalf of Manitoba farm producers; I am speaking on behalf of farm producers who know and understand the Free Trade Agreement unlike the Mem ber for St. Norbert .

They see it as a great opportunity for expanded markets, for opportunities to sell their products, to be financially secure which they have not been over recent times because of great pressure from world markets. So they are very happy about the Free Trade Agreemen t, very optimistic about the Free Trade Agreement. The Mem ber for St. Norbert is asking me to give him assurances that I would do something if something may happen, and he used tha t phrase today that they may be adversely affected.

The reality is that the farm commodity groups, the representat ives of the farmers in this province bel ieve they are going to be positively affected by the Free Trade Agreement. We agree with them and we are, therefore, very supportive of the Free Trade Agreem ent. Mr. Speaker : Let me kind ly, to all Ho nourable Members, Beauchesne's 358(2): "Answers to questions should be as brie f as possible and should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke de bate." The Honourable Mem ber for St. Norbert . Mr. Angus: Mr. Speaker , thank you for those words.

I certa inly hope that the Free Trade Agreement does provide a lot of bene fits. My supplementary question to the First Minister is: Given the fact that there may be potential problems, given the fact that the federal Government and Brian Mulroney has said that there is a downside to free trade, given the fact that B. C. has scooped us with $28 million in a six-year program , will this Mi nister acknowledge and make an effort to talk to his senior

Thur sday, August 4, 1988 partners about protect ing Ma nitoba commod ity producers? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, for somebody who was so defin ite about the fact that the Free Trade Agre ement was bad for Manitoba and that they were opposed to it because of all the negative impacts, now the Mem ber for St. Norbert is certainly backing off. He said "g iven the fact that there may be potential problems" -may be potential problems. We bel ieve that there are going to be many positive benefits for the free trade.

Every empirical study of the Free Trade Agreement says that Canada will bene fit, that Manitoba will be a net benefactor; that our agricultural producers, our red meat producers, our grains and our oilseed sectors, all of these areas will benefit under free trade. We are working to ma ximize the benefits to Manitoba. We are looking to expand the mark ets , to expan d the opportunities to ensure that our farmers are financially secure. That is what we are spending our time on, not trying to dig up phony arg ume nts as he had in Opposition. * ( 1420 ) Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for St.

Norbert, with a supplemen tary. Mr. Angus: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then my que stion is succinct and specific to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Given the statements by the vice-president of McCain Foods that the Portage factory is in jeopardy as a result of the Free Trade Agreement, what action is he prepared to take? Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, the vice-president of McCain Foods is obviously somebody who has a personal self interest involved in his business and is anxious to try and negotiate as much as he can on behalf of his business, and is suggest ing that there ought to be supports and adjustment fees and funds and all sorts of things. We belie ve that the Free Trade Agreement will have many positive benefits; that, in fact, our producers, our secondary processors and many others will benefi t.

We are prepared, as wel l, to say that should there be adjustments in the marketplace, and there always ar e-t here are every year adjustments in the marketplace because of technology changes, because of many other things-that we will be prepared to stand behind our producers, our manufacturers, and all of the people of Manitoba to ensur e that we have a strong and vibrant economy. That is what we will be doing, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired . NON-PO LITICAL STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for Ellice. Ms.

Avis Gray (EIIice): May I ask this House leave to give a non-political sta tement? 303 Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Mem ber have leave? (Agreed ) The Honourable Mem ber for Ellice. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker , throughout the history of our province, the heart and soul of Manitoba has been in rural life. Surely, one of the more vital forces in rural Manitoba has been the development of the 4-H and Youth Program . Mr. Speaker, I ask this House to join with me in recognizing the 4-H and Youth Program as it celeb rates its 75th anniversary. There are ceremonies this weekend in Portage la Prairie.

I would like to say that we should remember that Manitoba holds the distinction of being the first province in Canada to estab lish the 4-H and Youth Program, being called Boys and Girls Club. The first club in Canada was establ ished in Roland, Manitoba. I would like to say that "Learn to do by doing" is the 4-H motto. We should be proud of the accomplis hments of our rural youth and the accomplishments that they have achieved over the years. But we cannot talk about 4-H without commanding the leaders of the 4-H clubs as we ll.

The countless hours of dedica tion, the nurturing that they have provided , the leader ship that they have provided should not go unnoticed. I wou ld jus t like to say that, agai n, the many achievements of 4-H in this province should be noted and I hope all of you will join me in Portage la Prairie this we ekend in working with the 4-H clubs, leaders and the youth in celebra ting this honourable occasion. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): I would like to also pay tribu te to the 4-H movement like the Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray).

I will be proud to say that there are many Memb ers on this side who have been 4-H members and have learned leader ship because they were part of the 4-H movement. This is a very important tri bute to a group of young people, young people that have gone through the 4- H movement over years, and men and women of this province who have been leaders. As the Mem ber for Ellice (Ms. Gray) said, it started in 19 39 in the community of Roland, where tomorrow they are going to unveil a commemor ative stam p, commem ora ting the 4-H movement.

They have a pin, a very important pin, this green and white pin commemor at ing their 75th anniversary. A number of ceremon ies have been held throughout the province over this past summer at fairs and local communities and by 4-H clubs paying tri bute to past members and leaders. This we eke nd, in addition to the unve iling of the stamp, there is a series of events at Portage which I know many Memb ers on both sides of the House will participate in, as will several 10 0 past members of 4-H. I have a book here which I am going to circulate copies of to all Mem bers of the House. lt

Thur sday, August 4, 1988 is a very important book which has the 4-H motto inside which I would like to read: "I pledge my head to clearer thinking, my heart to greater loyalty, my hands to larger service, my health to better living, for my club, my community and my country, " with their motto being: "Learn to do by doing." The Boys and Girls Club of 1913 became the 4-H movement of Manitoba in 19 51, a very important movement that has been strong, will continue to be strong, because of the leader ship we have out there. We have over 100 people who have been leaders of this movement for some 20 years, and a Mr.

Clinton Whetter of Dand has a 40-year certificate as being a leader in 4-H. I commemorate the 4-H people of the Province of Manitoba and wish them we ll this we eken d. Everybody will get a copy of this book. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I would like to add comments to the 4-H celebra tions coming up, Mr. Speaker . I am pleased and proud that the 4-H movement in Manitoba had its birthplace in Pembina constitutency in the community of Roland. The community of Roland last fall unveiled a 75th cairn to 4-H which dedi cates Roland as the home of 4-H in Canada.

The citizens of Roland undertook, with a great deal of community effort and volunteer service, to put on one of the best celebra tions to kick off the 71s t anniversary last fall in their community. Tomorrow the community of Roland, after sign ificant effort again by volunt eers in the community, is proud to unveil the 75th anniversary commemorative stamp dedic ating 75 years of 4-H service in Canada with its birthplace in Roland. That commemoration of that stamp will take place tomorrow in Roland.

I know all mem bers of this Legislature would want to join in offering congratulations to the citizens of Roland for their tremendous volunteer effort in assuring that commemorative stamp inde ed was printed and indeed will be kicked off and formally presented to the people of Manitoba, the people of Canada and the world, because it is a substantial achievement for the community of Roland and a tremendous recog nition for their service to the youth of this country by being the birthplace of 4-H, 75 years ago. Mr.

Speaker: Before recog nizing the Honour able Mem ber , I assumed the Honour able Mem ber for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) had leave. Before making a non political statement all Honourable Mem bers must ask for leave. The Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker , I would like to ask the House for leave to make a non political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? (Leave) Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr.

Speaker , I am very pleased on behalf of my colleagues in the New Democratic Party caucus to join with all Mem bers in this House to recognize the important contribution made 304 by 4-H to the history and life of the Province of Manitoba. I am pleased to join with the Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray), the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), and the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) in seeking from this House unanimous commendation for this important 75th anniversary. My only regret is that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Find lay) came before me in his remarks and recited the 4-H motto.

Since I, too, am a former 4-H member, having received provincial honours, having completed 12 homemaking courses-! am sure all Mem bers of the House will be interested in that-1 was on a we ekly basis, used to reciting. I pledged my head to clearer thinking, my heart to greater loyalty, my hands to larger service and my health to better living for my club, my community and my country. I am absolutely delig hted that we are taking time in this Chamber today to recognize the important contribution of 4-H.

On behalf of everyone here, I hope we will be able to offer our encouragement to the 4-H clubs of Manitoba and hope that we will see them celeb rate another 75 years and recognize the 15 0th anniversary in the 75 years to come. An Honourable Member: Personal ly. Ms. Wasylysia-Leis: Yes, personally. * (14 30) HANSARD CORRE CTIONS Mr. Allan Patterson (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I wish to make the following Han sard correc tions in my inaugural speech of Wednesd ay, July 27.

Firstly, on page 13 6, column 2, paragraph 2, line 12, the single word "recall" should be replaced by "we all recal l." On page 137, second column, fourth-last line, the year "1 946" should be "19 56." On page 13 8, column 2, paragraph 4, line 5, the word "cannot" should read "can." Page 13 8, column 2, the second-last line, the single word "in dustrializ ation" should read "ind ustrial rela tions." (Int erject ion)- I might say to Honourable Mem bers that they are not all my Fre udian slips. Page 139, column 2, (Translation) paragraph 2, line 2, the two words "am sure" should be the single word "assure.

" Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): I don't know whether I want to do this now. I rise to respectfully req uest , in Hansard for Friday, July 29, a correction in column 2 on page 205. Instead of read ing "to serve over 10 3 Me tro Winnipeg public school student s," I req uest a correct ion to read "10 3,0 00 Metro Winnipeg public school student s." Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): I would like to have a correction to Hansard made. A mistake can be found

Thur sday, August 4, 1988 on page 80, Tuesday, 26th of July, and it is paragraph 7, the fifth line. The one word "restrai nable" should be changed to "sustainable." Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Are those all the Hansard correct ions? MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): I reg ret that I must rise at this time on behalf of the Government caucus in this House to raise a question of privilege, a question of privilege which I be lieve to be a rather serious matter as all questions of privilege must be. Mr.

Speaker, I think the matter I raise has a profound effect on all Honourable Mem bers in this House and cer tainly upon the perception that the peo ple of Manitoba have of us. As the father of five daughters and as one who, over the years, has had to learn my own lessons about the language that we use, especially sexist language in these the 19 80s, I feel that I must raise the matter. I feel very regretful because I think that when one Mem ber in this House uses intemperate or language which might be perceived as se xist, all Mem bers of this House suffer as a consequence thereof.

I must bring to your attention, Mr. Speaker , that on Tuesd ay, August 2 in the Throne Speech Deba te as recorded at page 242, the Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) made reference to the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) in that debate.

I n that ref erence, he refe rred to the Leader of the Opposition as "Attila the He n." As I say, as one who has had to learn my own lessons on this issue and as one who accepts criticism when I use language that is not entir ely proper and as one who makes apologies when the language I use is not proper or fitting for Mem bers of the Leg islature, I raise the matter. So I am not standing here to say that I am lily-white, Mr. Speaker , and I do not suppose any Mem ber in this place could make that claim.

But I do say that to describe the Leader of the Opposition as "Attila the Hen ," eit her inside this place or outside this place, is not only improper but it reflects very badly on the Member who makes the comments. lt reflects very badly on all Mem bers of this House, certainly Mem bers of that particular Memb er's caucus. I know the Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) has given us some lessons on this kind of matter. I respect the Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns for doing that, because I bel ieve that what she has tried to impart to us is important.

Not only what we do but the way we do it and the perception of that is also important. In fact, I would be surprised if I did not hear that the Honourable Mem ber for St. Johns has not already spoken to the Honourable Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) about this issue. I must say that I am a little bit surprised that Mem bers in the Official Opposition did not bring this matter forward , but I do not make much of a point about that.

But I do say that the matter should be raised now, and that the matter should also be a subject of attention on the part of all Honourable Mem bers so that we can avoid using the kind of language used the other day by the Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood. 305 So, Mr. Speaker, if you should see fit, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that the Honourable Memb er for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) immediately apologize to the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs), to this House and, through this House, to every woman in Manitoba for using the expression "Attila the Hen" in reference to the Leader of the Opposition. MOTION presented. * (14 40) Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Opposition House Leader, with some brief and strictly relevant remarks. Mr. Reg. Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Thank you, Mr. Speaker , I simply wish to respond to the comment made by the Opposition House Leader. We share the concern he raises. Being new in the House, we read the Rule Book very carefully and were 1 advised that it could not be raised as a matter of privilege at this time.

Mr. Jim Maloway (Eimwood): Mr. Speaker, I will be very happy to withdraw the remarks, and certainly regret that anyone would have taken offence to the comments. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is a very serious matter and we were trying to pay strict atte ntion to all the input from Honourable Mem bers. The Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood did withdraw, and I would like to thank the Honourable Member for Elmwood. This concludes that matter. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, would you be so kind as to call Bills No. 4, 5, 9, 8 and 10, and if after consideration of those Bills this afte rnoon, there is still time between that point and the Private Members' Hour, it would be our intention to move that the House resolve into Committee of Supply. SE COND READING BILL NO. 4 - THE RE-ENACTED STATUTES OF MANITOBA, 1988, ACT Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General) presented Bill No. 4, The Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 88, Act;

Loi sur les lois readoptees du Manitoba de 19 88, for second read ing. MOTION presented . Mr. McCrae: I am pleased today to move second read ing of The Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 88, Act . Thos e Ho nourable Mem bers who sat in the previous Leg islature are no doubt familiar with the proced ure that was adopted for The Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 87, and will recognize that Bill

Thu rsday, August 4, 1988 4 is ident ical to Bill 3 presented in the last Session of the 33rd Leg islature. I am sure all Mem bers of this Assembly will recognize that this Bill is a non-partisan matter and its speedy passage is in the interests of all Manitobans. For the benefit of some of the newer Members of this Assemb ly, and not only them but some of those who have been around for the last couple of years as we ll and perhaps even longer, I will provide a brief explanation of the process that has led to the preparation of this Bill. Sir, as Honourable Members are aware, in Decem ber 19 79, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act could not be overridden by

an Act of the Manitoba Legislature and consequently all Acts of this Leg islature had to be in both French and English. The Province of Manitoba had, in 18 90, passed a Bill making English the only language to be used in the Leg islature and in the courts and provided that the Acts of the Leg islature would be printed and published in English only. Although the Supreme Court of Canada decl ared

Section 23 to be binding, the conseq uences of the province failing to live up to its constitutional obl igations for 90 years were not made clear by that judgm ent. lt was clear, however, that it was impossible to translate and re-enact that mass of legislation overnight. In fact, at that time the Province of Manitoba had only a general translation service employing two translators from English to French. The response of the Government of the Day was to bring in

an Act respecting the operation of

Section 23, which introduc ed a proced ur e whereby certified translations of the Acts could be deposited with the clerk and then would be deemed to be adopted in both langua ges. Progress however was slow, as it proved difficult to attract trained legal translators to Manitoba, and Mr. Roge r Bilodeau challenged the validity of a ticket issued to him unde r The Highway Traffic Act on the grounds that the Act, being only in English, was unconstitutional. I will not dis cuss the efforts made to reach a compromise solution and a constitutional amendment.

I thought I might spare Honourable Mem bers a rehash of that story. Suffice it to say, that in June of 19 85, the Supreme Court ruled that Manitoba's English only Acts, and by a previous decision of the Supreme Court these Acts include all re gulations and rules of procedure, were constitutionally inval id. The Supreme Cour t, however, recognized that this finding would lead to judicial chaos in the province, and it also ruled that the English only leg islation would remain valid for the minimum period necessary for it to be translated , re ena cted , print ed and publis hed .

All le gi slation subsequent to the Supreme Court judgment, however, had to respect the constitutional ru les and there had to be a bilingual process from start to finish in the adoption of all Manitoba legislation.

By consent, in November 19 85, the Supreme Court fixed the final date for validity of the most important English language statutes, regulations, rules of court 306 and administrative tribunals at Dece mber 31, 19 88, and establ ished Dece mber 31, 19 90, as the final date for validity for all other Manitoba legislation, which includes certain public Acts of lesser importance, all private Acts and all municipal Acts passed by the Leg islature. Since 19 70, when Manitoba last prepared revised statutes, the most important statutes have been available to the public in loose-leaf format.

These Acts totalling about 6,000 pages in 19 85 are known as the continuing consolidation of the Statutes of Manitoba. Very few of them were in both languages in 19 85. The work involved in prepa ring the conti nuing cons olida tion statutes for re-enact ment was considerable. At the direction of the then Attorney General , the Leg islativ e Counsel atten ded at the Opposition caucus in 19 87 to explain the 13 steps involved in preparing

an Act for re-enactment and to answer all questions which the Mem bers of our caucus had. I understand he also attended at the office of the then Member for River Heights, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) now, to answer any ques tions which she might have had about the procedure. For any Members in this Assembly who have questions regard ing the re-enactment process and the steps that were taken, I would ask them to communicate directly with Legislative Counsel who will provide all the information which the Honourable Mem bers might req uire.

In the 19 87 Ses sion, some 344 Acts total ling approximately 7,000 pages of legislation were passed as the Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba 19 87. lt was the decision of Leg islative Counsel that it would not have been possible to complete all the statutes in the continuing consolidation for 19 87 and accordingly some of the largest and most complicated statutes which had been most freq uently amended were set aside to be presented to the Legislature in 19 88.

The roll of Acts being re-enacted by this Bill includes, for example, The Municipal Act, which is 569 pages long; and it also includes The Income Tax Act, The Liquor Control Act, and The Real Property Act, all of which have been amended in virtually every Session since 19 70. Mr. Speaker , I am assured that the Acts in the roll contain no changes in the legislation other than the drafting and renumbering changes which were made in the Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 87.

With the passage of the Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 88, the Acts in the continuing consolidation of the statutes of Manitoba, whic h it was consi dered appropriate to re-enact unchanged, will be completed . I draw Honourable Mem bers' attention to the fact that this Bill, unlike the Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 87, Bill, is to come into force on Royal Assent rather than on proclamation.

The reason for this is that the roll to the Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 87, was produced off of the Leg islative Counsel Office's word processing equipment, but was not in camera-ready forma t to be gi ven to the printers. The task of tr ansf orming the 7, 000 pages in the Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 87, into camera-ready form and then having the Acts printed consumed almost six months. For that reaso n, the Acts cou ld not be di stri but ed to su bscri bers to the continuing

Thur sday, August 4, 1988 consolidation until last January and accordingly the Acts were proclaimed in force for Fe bruary 1. * ( 1450) Because there are fewe r pages, because the Decem ber 31, 1988 , dea dline for re-enacting, printing and publishing is looming ever closer on the horizon and because the Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 1987, were adopted by this House with no amendments and no controversy, it was de cided by the previous Government that the Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 1988, should be presented to this Legislature in camera ready form and that the roll of Acts should be printed in advance of the Session which began last Fe bruary.

This was a wise decision in light of the events of last March which were, I belie ve , unanticipated by the Government of that Day, but which have already resulted in a five-month delay in the consider ation of the Re enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 1988 , by this Assembly. I am assured that the necessary copies of the Re enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 1988, are printed and addressed, and await only the passage of this Bill so that they can be distrib uted to all the subscribers to the continuing cons olida tion of the Statutes of Manitoba.

This means that, within a matter of a week or two of the passage of this Bill, people of Manitoba will once again have ready access to all the important public Acts of Manitoba. I should also advise the House that all legislation affecting the 29 Acts to be re-enacted by this Bill, to be brought forward by the Gove rnment in this Session, will be drafted as amendments to the version to be re-enacted by this Bill.

This means that it will not be necessary for Leg islative Counsel Office to pr epare a supplementary volume to make the numbering changes in an amending Act which wou ld have amended the numbers in force today. Before concluding my remarks on this Bill, I think it is appropriate that, in the name of all the Mem bers of the Government and I am sure in the name of all the Mem bers of the Assem bly, I should expr ess our gratitude for the hard work that was done in preparing these Acts for re-enactment. Only three wee ks ago, I received in my office from Ottawa the revised Statutes of Canada, 19 85.

I would be one of the last in this House to want to cast aspersions on the federal Government but I would point out that, when the Federal Government began to prepare their revised statutes, they had an English and a French text to work from. A large committee was established and the work proceeded over many years. By contrast, in Manitoba, the Acts that are being presented for re-enactment were prepared by the regular staff of the Leg islative Counsel Office in their English version, taking advantage of the lulls between Sessions and fitting this work into their heavy workloads and schedules.

While the work on the English side has been commendable, to say the least, I believe a special thanks is owed to those who worked so hard to produce the French ver sion. By and large, they were working from unrevised and outdated translations that had been done by outside contractors.

I understand that many of these 307 had to be substantially reworded and the massive task of ensuring that the translation of these Acts was of a high qual ity was done by the reg ular staff of the French legal transla tion service, which never numbered more than 14 translators and 7 secret aries, and who in addition have been responsible for producing Votes and Pro ceed ings and the French versions of all current legislation and regulations. Theirs has been a Herculean task, and they richly deserve the thanks of all Mem bers of this Assemb ly.

For all of these reasons, I urge the Members of this House to give speedy consideration to Bill No. 4. I am pleased to recommend it to the House, and I also ask for speedy passage. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): I would like to thank the Honourable Attorne y-General for his introductory comments and move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that de bate be adjourned on this Bill. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 5 - THE STATUTE RE- ENACTMENT ACT, 1988 Hon.

James McCrae (Attorney-General) presented Bill No. 5, The Statute Re-enactment Act, 19 88; Loi de 19 88 sur la read option de lois, for second read ing. MOTION presented. Mr. McCrae: I know that Honourable Mem bers will have been inspired and impressed and left rejuvenated after hearing my comments on Bill No. 4. I know what an interes ting topic it is. If only the de bate today could be as in terest ing as the de bate was that brought us to the position of all this re-enactment.

Maybe I should not be longing for those days but the contrast is pretty significant, I suggest , because here we are doing a good job to solve the problem in my estimation. Mr. Speaker, my remarks in moving second read ing of Bill No. 5, The Statute Re-enactment Act, 19 88, will be brief, and I am sure the Honourable Mem ber for St. James (Mr. Edwards) is going to be glad to hear that. Bill No. 5 represents another aspect of the re enactment process. The

Schedule to Bill No. 5 includes two Acts previously contained in the continuing consolidation of the Statutes of Manitoba, which it is not considered appropriate to re-enact as part of the continuing consolidation.

These two Acts are The Greater Winnipeg Gas Distribution Act which effectively regulates only one company in the province, and The Succession Duty Act whose application has been suspended since 19 77 when the federal Gove rnment introd uced capital gains taxation on death. lt is being re-enacted to ensure its continuing validity as some money is still being collected on estates of persons who died prior to 19 77. The amount is approxima tely $70,000 per year . The provisions of The Succession Duty Act no longer affect the general public in Manitoba.

Thur sday, August 4, 1988 There are also three Acts, The Centennial Projects Tax Status Act, The Convention Centre Corporation Act and The Health Sciences Centre Act that must be re-enacted in order to remain valid. Like the Acts in the re-enacted statutes, these Acts restate the law as it exists with only minimal drafting and renumbering changes.

The staff of the Attorne y-General's Department has been revie wing the tables of public unconsolidated statutes, and the House can anticipate that there will be another statute re-enactment Bill in 19 89 and another one in 19 90, together with Bills repealing those public statutes consi dered to be spent. So the Honourable Mem ber for St. James (Mr. Edwards) has a lot to look forward to in 19 89 and in 19 90. Again, I invite all Honourable Mem bers of this Assembl y who have any questions about the procedure or about the Acts contained in the

schedule to feel free to contact Legislative Counsel. They are authorized to be as helpful as they can to Honourable Mem bers who have any � questions about this process. Finally, I wish to advise all Honourable Mem bers that a complete report on the state of the validation project is being prepared, that there are certain problems which will be discussed in that report, particularly with the re-enactment of the private Acts, which arise from the fact that the Government does not control these Acts. They affect private individuals and corporations.

I am sure this House does not wish to act without consulting them, but there are hundreds of them that will have to be located . I hope this report to the Leg islature can be ready prior to the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of the Attorney-General. That would permit the Members to consider whether the report and the proposed plan of action of the Govern ment to ensure that the Decem ber 31, 19 90 dead line is respected can be reviewed during Estimates. In closing, Sir, I again urge all Honourable Members of the Assembly to cooperate in the speedy passage of Bill 5.

I point out that the two Acts in the continuing consolidation to maintain their valid ity must be printed and published by Dece mber 31 of this year. So I recommend Bill 5 to the House. • (1 500) Mr. Paul Edwarda (St. Jamea): Again, I want to thank the Honourable Attor ney-General (Mr. McCrae) for his introductory comments to this Bill No. 5; and again, I move, seco nded by the Hono ur able Mem ber for Transcona (Mr. Kozak), that deba te be adjourned on this, Bill No. 5. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 9 - THE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT (RE-EN ACTED STATUTES) ACT Hon.

Jamea McCrae (Attorney-General) presented Bill No. 9, The Statute Law Amend ment (Re -enacted 308 Statutes) Act; Loi mod ifiant div erses dispositi ons legisla tives (Lois readoptees), for second read ing. MOTION presented. Mr. McCrae: In my remarks on Bill 4, I spoke about the tremendous accomplishment of Legislative Counsel Office in preparing for re-enactment the thousands of pages contained in the re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 87, and the re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 88.

In a sense, Bill 9, which I have the honour of presenting to the House now, is the down side of producing so much leg islation so fast. As Honourable Members will note, it consists of minor corrections to cross-references and other corrections of a te chnical nature that were made in the integra tion of all the amend ments into the Bills and the ren umbering process in order to produce a revised Act for re-enactment.

Subscribers to the con tinuing consolidation of the Statutes of Manitoba have recently received or will receive in the very near future a massive update to the continuing consolidation consisting of more than 1, 000 pages. Each of these pages has either a change made by amendment in the 19 87 Session when 11 0 Acts in the continuing consolidation were amended in one way or another or they contain correct ions that were made as part of the supplement to the re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 87.

By way of explanation to Mem bers of the House, the Bill which brought into force the Revised Statutes of Manitoba 19 87 made provision for the publication of a supplement volume and for corrections to be made in the re-enacted Statutes by certificate of the Attorney General.

This process was adopted because the time constraints under which Leg islative Counsel Office was working req uired that the 344 Acts in the re-enacted Statutes of Ma nitoba, 19 87, be presented to the Leg isla ture without having been revie wed by the departments. lt was felt that the process of se nding these Acts to the departments and explaining to them all the changes would resu lt in an intolerable delay in the preparation of the Acts. Since the Acts have been proclaimed, the departments have of course been looking over their legislation and they have picked up many of the mistakes that were made.

Those that were ide ntified on time, 1hat is by January of this year, were corrected by means of the supplement volume. This Bill contains in

Part I correct ions to those mistakes that were discovered too late to be corrected by the R.S.M. 19 87 supplement volume. The Bill bringing into force the re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 88, has no such provision. However, the Acts in the re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 88, were completed and ready to go to the printer last Decem ber. Copies of the Acts have been sent to the de partments and the departments have had the opportunity to ex amine them, and

Part 11 of this Bill contains corrections to the mistakes that have been found in the Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 88. With the passage of this Bill and the passage of Bill 4, the re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 19 88 Act, the continuing consolidation of the Statutes of Manitoba will not only have been re-enacted but will have been

Thur sday, August 4, 19 88 corrected and will form a rel iable source for consulting the laws of Manitoba. For that reason, I urge all Honourable Mem bers to give this non-partisan bill speedy passage. I recommend Bill 9 to the House. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for Transcona (Mr. Kozak), that deba te on Bill No. 9 be adjourned . MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 8 - THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH SMALL CLA IMS PR ACTICES AMENDMENT ACT Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General) presented Bill No. 8, The Court of Que en's Bench Small Claims Practices Amendment Act; Loi modlfiant la

Loi sur le recouvrement des petites creances a Cour du Banc de la Reine, for second reading. MOTION presented. Mr. McCrae: lt is with a great deal of pleasure that I rise today to move second reading of Bill 8 to amend The Court of Queen 's Bench Small Claims Practices Act . I am pleased because this Bill honour s a commitment made during the elec tion campaign by the Progressive Conservative Party. I guess I am really happy because today I am able to honour two commitments.

Earlier today I had the opportun ity to announc e that the Law Reform Commission of Manitoba in its independent form now exists again. lt is a matter of some pride and I suppose I should not get too far off the track but I must be a little bit critical of any Gove rnme nt that wants to take away the independ ence of a Law Reform Commission and replace it with civil servants whose masters are political. I am also pleased and grateful to the mem bers of the Law Reform Commission, who have accepted their re-appointments, and exce edingly gratefu l to our new appointee.

The former Lieutena nt-Governor , Pearl McGonigal, has agreed to join with the other commissioners to do the work of the Manitoba Law Reform Commission. So it is a matter of significant pride as Attorne y-General to be able to do that. * (151 0) I am also very proud of the Bill I am now presenti ng, Mr. Speaker. As the title to the Bill indicates, the Bill deals with the practices in Small Claims Court. As Honourable Mem bers know, small claims is intended to provide a speedy consideration of matters which do not merit the heavy expend iture often involved in a Que en's Bench action.

Small claims provisions have existed since 1916 when the concept was introduced with hearings held in the Magistrate's Court when the matter at issue was less than $50.00. Times have obviously changed. lt has been some time since 1916 , $50 .00 is not like the $50.00 it was in 1916 . Since that time, jurisdiction has been raised repeatedly to keep up with infla tion, most recently in 19 86 when the 309 monetary limit was raised to $3,000.00.

In 19 83, when the County Court was amalgamated with the Court of Que en 's Bench, jurisd iction in Small Claims matters was of course transferred to the Court of Que en 's Bench. Mr. Speaker , Bill No. 8 aims to improve the operation of the Small Claims Court in three ways.

First, it will raise the monetary jurisdiction of the Small Claims Division to $5,000; second, it will introduce a defau lt judgement proceeding; and third, it will ensure that small claims matters are heard in the Small Claims Court. lt see ms to me these reforms of the Small Claims Court make that court simpler and easier for the average Manitoban to approach and to deal with and to have problems resolved in.

As an Attorney-General whose contact with legal matters are limited by the fact that I am not a lawyer, it is especially nice for me to be able to introduce something that is easier for the average person to unde rstand, the non-professional to understand. The Honourable Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) approves, and I am gla d for that. Life is complex enough in the 19 80s without having to be a Philadelphia lawyer to have a small claim resolved , or without having to resort to somewhat expensive means of going to a lawyer to have some of these matters resolved . The Honourable Mem ber for St. James (Mr.

Edwards), the Honourable Mem ber for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko), The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), they might not be too happy with me for tal king about lawyers in this way. You know, there are plenty of very, very important issues nowadays for lawyers to keep busy wit h.

I think that, if there is a simple way for some of the smaller matters to be dealt with without the services of laywers, the people of Manitoba will be we ll served, and I think the Bar of this province is ready to accept a move of jurisdiction from $3,000 to $5,000 because, goodness knows, there are plenty of other important matters for them to deal with. As I said and as Honourable Mem bers know, court actions are expensive, Sir.

Each of the chang es proposed in this Bill is designed to red uce that expenditure. lt is a fact that inflation has led to claims which used to fall within the small claims jurisdiction now bei ng beyond the jurisdiction. The changes in the monetary limits of the Small Claims Division have not kept pace with inflation, and consequently we belie ve there are some claims that are not worth the expense of hiring a lawyer and going to the Court of Queen 's Bench for a full hea ring, but yet ar e too expensiv e to be prosecuted in small claims.

Very often, we might be talking about a $30 matter or a $10 0 matter, and some people feel so strongly about bei ng right about a matter or they feel they have been had and, even over a small amount of money, people can get really angry and they want to have their day in court. Our Small Claims Court is there for that. it is not there for frivolous and vexat ious cases, but there are cases where people will take a small matter to court which may not, under all other considerations,

Thur sday, August 4, 1988 merit the expenditure of a whole lot of money to get through. But some people feel that they have been wronged and they need the red ress that the court of law can give to them, and so you do not need to have a lawyer for some of those things. You can still choose to have a lawyer in Small Claims Court That is up to you. Raising the monetary jurisdiction will open the exped itious small claims procedur e to these types of plaintiffs. Mr. Speaker , a problem with the current small claims proced ure has been the difficulty of deal ing with a defendant who chooses not to appear.

Under current provisions, the court officer who is to hear the claim is given the choice of adjourning the matter or hearing the matter. lt is proposed that, where a defendant does not appear, the hearing officer will no longer have the power to adjourn the matter. Instead , once it has been proven that the defendant has been properly served, the hearing officer may grant default judgment and dismiss any counterclai m. So what we have is the Small Claims Court having similar powers to other courts.

Of course, the defendant will still have the right, upon being served with the judgment, to appeal the decision to the Court of Queen 's Be nch, but the defendant will then be req uired to exlain why he did not appear. I think that is important. If I were a large corporation defen dant, I may decide to let the judgment go and then appeal the matter and have my lawyer look after the matter in the Que en 's Bench.

My lawyer is going to have to answer for why I did not appear in the first place, and I think that is important. lt is important that the jurisdiction of all of our courts be respected by the people, and the jurisdiction of the Small Claims Court will be respected by virtue of this provision. Those defendants who know they have no defense and choose simply to ignore the court and the court's procedure will find that judgment has been granted against them more rapidly than would have been the case under current provisions.

So if you are entitled to a judgment and the defendant does not show, you are going to have your judgment and you are going to have it quicker than you would have without this legislation. Finally, Sir, the current small claims legislation allows any defendant, upon filing a notice of objection, to have the matter taken out of the Small Claims Division and heard in the Court of Queen 's Bench. I refer to this as a bumping-up to the Que en 's Bench.

The result of this is that, if a plaintiff who has, let us say, a $500 claim against a corporate defenda nt regard ing repairs to his house or his or her car or some other minor matter, may find that the corporation chooses to have the matter put in the Court of Queen 's Bench and to use the lengthy and expensive procedures such as exam ination for discovery and to make prosecuting the claim so expensive for the plaintiff that he or she has little practical choice but to abandon the claim. I say that is wrong; I say that is a shame.

If you have got a legiti mate claim, one that is li kely to be successful, why should you be bumped out of this inexpensive people's court by a defendant who is better off and better able to afford that What they are doing is scaring you off and perhaps you will never go to the Queen 's 310 Bench with it. Therefore, you would have lost your day in court and that is against natural justice in my estimation. This legislation proposes to abolish that automatic right to have the matter heard in the Court of Queen's Bench.

Instead , the matter will have to be heard first in Small Claims Court This should help to keep the Small Claims Court truly a people's court I would point out to Honourable Mem bers that there will be some staffing implications for the Court of Queen's Bench as it prepares to deal with an unknown volume of new claims which may come forward. For every up side, there is a down side. We know, we are cognizant of the fact that we may be creating heavier traffic in the Small Claims Court. We do not know yet how much more traffic this will gene rate.

I hope it gen erates more, because I think that easy access to this kind of justice is what the people of Manitoba want. Because of this, this Bill is going to come into force on proclamation. lt is the intention of the Government to proceed as quickly as possible to review the implications and resources for the Small Claims division of the Court of Que en's Bench and to proclaim these provisions this faiL Mr.

Speaker , like I said it when I began, it gives me a great deal of pleasu re to be able to deliver on this what I thought was an important plank in the justice platform of the Government 's elec tion campaign. I belie ve this kind of thing will receive the approbation of Honourable Members opposite in both Parties, those who are interested in making life a little simpler for average Manitobans when they come into conflict with each other. I strongly urge positive consideration by Honourable Members to this Bill, and I ask for its speedy passage. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Paul Edwards (St.

James): I move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber . . .. An Honourable Member: Mr. Speaker, I think we would be happy if this matter is adjourned today, we would be happy to have it stand in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for St. James (Mr. Edwards), but I would like to see if there are Honourable Mem bers on this side of the House who might like to speak on this Bill. * (1 520) Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker , just a couple of brief comments on this BilL As it has been indicated in the introduction of it by the Attorne y-General (Mr.

McCrae) ... . that he has made to small business and those peo ple in our society who do not feel that they can afford or should have to go a higher court for the sett ling of an account, a commitment that, as he indicated , was made prior to the ele ction, a commitment that today we are seeing being introduced as legisla tion, and again I would say, a clear commitment by the Conservative Party that we stand up for the little person in our society. I think it is extremely important today that recognition is made of our Attorney-General. His concern for those people who are able to go through the least amount

Thu rsday, August 4, 19 88 of difficulty to accomplish what they consider is rightfully theirs in the payment of bills, the amount that was in place was not that great and with the increase to $5,000, I am sure we will accommodate, as he has indicated , a greater number of people in our society. I just want to make it very clear on the record, that the Conservative Party truly do stand up for the small people in society. Thank you, and I am pleased to support Bill 8. Mr.

Speaker, I understand that there is another one of my colleagues that wishes to speak brie fly on this matter, and I will yield the floor to him at this particular time. Mr. Gilles Roch (Springlield): I would like to make a few brief comments as we ll on Bill No. 8, The Small Claims Practices Amendment Act.

I am very happy to see that this Government is moving to raise the limit from $3,000 to $5,000.00. lt is indeed gratifying to know that we are making it more accessible for people who have limited means, or who do not wish to spend considerable sums of money fighting small claims in court the opportunity to do so. The pu rpose of this Bill is obvious. lt is to help out average people who cannot afford expensive legal counsel as in the case of some wealt hier individuals, organizations or corporations.

For that matter, its intent is also to enable people whose claims will be less than the cost of fighting in court-its purpose is to not discourage these people from pursuing the matter. As so often happened in the past, people wou ld not bother filing a claim or would be discouraged from filing a claim or would be discouraged from pursuing it because of those very financial reasons. The cost of legal counsel -lawyers if you wish-two individuals-is at times a serious hardship, and the case where the resources of legal aid are being req uired , it is an enormous cost to the taxpayers.

Therefore, raising the limit on the Small Claims Court is obviously going to help clean up this matter. Also, by providing default judg ment rather than the possibility of an adjournment when a defendant fails to show up will also help reduce the cost to plaint iffs. lt will not penalize people who are trying to get justice done, because very often when there is a party who may be at fault and are someti mes at fault, it is a tactic which is used to try and discourage the plaintiff from pursuing the matter.

By providing this amendment to The Small Claims Act it will enable those people, enforce those defendants to indeed show up. If in fact they are not wrong, they will then have the opportunity to justify their case.

By far the most important change is making certain that a small claims action will be heard in a Small Claims Court, and that is the most significant part of all this; indeed, the very purpose of this amount. lt still allows for the use of a lawyer by either party if they so choose and no doubt in many cases those organizations or individuals in the past who have chosen to retain legal counsel because they are in a position that they can afford to do so, will probably continue to do so.

At 311 le ast it will allow a person without legal counsel to get a fair hearing and to indeed have justice done without having to suffer undue financial hardship.

The whole purpose of the Bill is because of, obviously, inflation, to allow what at one time were large claims and have now become small claims, to allow those claims to be dealt with in such a manner that a person who has a legitimate claim will indeed come to court, seek justice rather than say, "Well I am not going to bother simply because it does not pay to fight it," or else, "I also cannot a lawyer to fight it." In many cases where larger more powerful and rich organizations have used these tactics in the past to discourage individuals, hopefully this will cease .

I might add as a suggestion to the Attorney Ge neral and, indeed, to the Government that this is

an Act which should be constantly reviewed because as inflation continues to grow over the years it is obvious that, for exam ple five or six years from now, $5,0 00 may not be a high enough limit. lt may be just and fair at this point in time, but it has to be under constant review.

In conclusion, I would like to say that this is a Bill which is wel l worth the attention and sup port of all Mem bers of this Assembly because it seeks to address a major concern of many an average Manitoban. lt seeks to address the concerns of many a person who may have been done an injustice in the past and to hopefully address these concerns, not just for now but in the future. I would certainly hope that it gets the support of all Mem bers in this House. I thank you. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): I move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for Ellice (Ms. Gray), that De bate be adjourned on this, Bill No. 8.

MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 10 - THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH ACT Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General) presented Bill No. 10 , The Court of Queen 's Bench Act;

Loi sur la Cour du Banc de la Reine, for second read ing. MOTION presented. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I present to the House for its consideration Bill No. 10, The Court of Queen 's Bench Act.

Again, I belie ve this is a measure which should receive the support of all Parties in the House because it represents the result of a thorough revision of the Act unde rtaken by a committee of Queen 's Bench judges and lawyers in the Attorne y-General 's Department who have consulted with the Bar. lt is the expectation of this committee and of the Gove rnment that the adoption of this Act, together with the new rules of the Que en's Bench, will lead to more exped itious hearing of actions in the Que en 's Bench and thereby contribute to red ucing the backlog in the Que en 's Bench with savings to the general public in time and money.

Thu rsday, August 4, 1988 As background to the Bill, I wish to advise Honourable Members that it grew out of the revision of the rules, a project that was begun in 19 85. At that time, a comm ittee consis ting of Queen 's Bench jud ges, practising lawyers and mem bers of the Attorne y General 's Department was esta blished to research the rules and to do the necessary drafting of new rules. The rules had not been revised since the 19 30s, Mr. Speaker- that is even before you and I got started , I think.

The committee built upon the work that had been done in other jurisdictions such as Ontario, where extensive modernization and rew riting of the rules had taken place. This committee has completed its work , and a new set of Queen 's Bench rules is now ready for adoption. As this committee worked on the rules, it became evident that The Que en 's Bench Act itself was in need of an overhaul. Many of the provisions in The Queen 's Bench Act have remained virtually unchanged since they were enacted more than 10 0 years ago.

At that time, those provisions were copies of the Jaw of England, and some of them reflected the conditions in England in the early nineteenth century, and that was before our time too, Mr. Speaker. Jt was also clear to the committee that it would lead to confusion to have the rules brought up to date, for exam ple, by elimina ting Latin te rminology, while leavi ng these archaic words in The Qu een 's Bench Act itself. You see , I never took Latin in school, Mr. Speaker.

Perhaps you did, but I did not, and I am not a lawyer so I guess Latin has really never real ly bothered me very much, but maybe it was Latin that got into my two predece ssors. In any event, look what happened to them. * (15 30) Further, if the rules were to be brought completely up to date, the rule-making power in The Queen 's Bench Act itself had to be considered . For that rea son, the commit tee sought the approval of the previ ous Government to revise The Court of Queen's Bench Act. The previous Government gave them the go-ahead, and the previous Government should be commended for doing that.

As a result, a second committee was estab lished which consisted of four Queen 's Bench judges and three members of the Attorne y-General 's Department. The committee has been mee ting since March 19 87, and this Bill is the result of its efforts. This Bill was circulated to the Rules Revision Committee so that the private Bar had the opportunity to review the draft. There are many changes in the language of the Act from former provisions. For this reason, I have given to each Opposition critic a copy of the 10 5-page booklet prepared by the committee to explain the provisions in the Act.

If, after consideration of this explanatory mate rial, there are provisions which the Opposition wishes to have clarified , I would ask them them to get in touch with me. I will have the committee provide them with all the explanations they req uire or, if they so desire, I can arrange for them to meet with the re sponsi ble officials in the commit tee for a full explanation of any or all of the provisions. Bill No. 10 also includes a consolidation into The Que en 's Bench Act of The Replevin Act and The 312 Judgm ent Inter est and Discount Act.

The Replevin Act establishes a procedure whereby a plaintiff can reclaim property that the plaintiff claims is being wrongfully held by the defen dant. Once the property is retu rned to the plaintiff, the action proceeds. The Judgment Interest and Discount Act establishes rules for awarding prejudg ment interest and for the calculation of lump sum damages. These are provisions which can and should be included in The Queen 's Bench Act.

I draw the attention of Honourable Mem bers to the following matters of principle which represent significant changes from past practice and which are, I submit, significant improvements which deserve the support of the House. The Bill contains provisions which will permit a court, on notice to the Attorney-General, to order that a person who persistently and without reasonable grounds brings proceed ings be prohibited from bringing any further proceed ings except with leave of a judge.

This is borrowed from Ontario legislation and is intended to deal with a person who uses the court process to har ass other individuals. Under existing legislation, the defen dant in a vexat ious proceed ing may bring a motion in the court to have the proceed ing struck out. However, the defendant is normally required to spend money to reta in a lawyer, and he or she is unlikely to recoup all of the costs of retaining that lawyer. Here again, I think we are talking about people's legislation, and I think it is good.

Moreover, the plaintiff may immediately begin another action and force the defendant once again to go to court to try to have the second action struck out as a vexa tious proceeding. This can go on with action after action, and it is an abuse of the court process. Of course, judges are reluctant to strike out a plaintiff's claim as being vexatious. Quite rightly, they bel ieve that a plaintiff should be entitled to his or her day in court. Accordingly, this new provision in the Act safeg uards the right of the plaintiff since the order cannot be made without notice to the Attorney-General.

As the de partment charged with the administration of justice in the province, it is appropriate that the Attorne y-General's Department receive notice of these matters so that they can be reviewed . Moreover, a plaintiff does not lose forever the right to bring proceed ings agai nst that de fen dant. The plaintif f may always seek to bring another action forward , but he will first have to obtain leave of a judge. The judge will have to be sa tisfied that this time the plaintiff has a reasonable cause of action. Sir, the second major change in the Act is the change in the rule-making power.

Until now, rules have been made by the Judges alone but the operation of the Rules Revision Committee since 19 85 has indicated the value of participation in the rule-making process by practising lawye rs and mem bers of the Attorne y General 's Department. Accordingly, Bill 10 calls for establishing a Rules Committee composed of six judges, two persons appointed by the Attorne y-General and three lawyers appointed by the Law Soc iety of Manitoba. There is sti ll a majority of judges, but there

Thur sday, August 4, 19 88 is now provision to ensure that mem bers of the practising Bar will have an adequa te opportunity to contribute to the elaboration of new rules. The new rules and the new Queen 's Bench Act are a package, Mr. Speaker. They will only work we ll if they are both in place. The Law Society has already beg un to elabo rate continuing education programs to familiarize the profession with the new Act and the rules.

Bill 10 is to come into force on proclama tion, and if it is passed by this Leg islature that proclamation date will be worked out with the Law Society and the judges so that we can be assured that the profession is prepared to deal with the changes. Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of pleasure once again that I recommend Bill 10 to the House for its consideration and passage. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for St. Norbert (Mr . Angus), that deba te o n this, Bill No. 10, be adjourned . NOTION presented and carried. * ( 1540 ) Hon.

Cl ayton Manness (Honourable Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae), that Mr. Speaker now leave the chair and the House go into Commit tee of Supply. MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee of Supply to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Mem ber for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair. COMMITT EE OF SUP PLY SUP PLY - INTERI M SUP PLY Mr. Chairman, Mark Minenko: The Committee of Supply will now come to order, please.

The question before the committee is the following resolution: RESOLVED that a sum not exceed ing $2,626,07 4,640, being 70 percent of the total sums voted as set forth in The Appropriation Act, 19 87, be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 19 89. Does the Minister of Fina nce have an open ing comment? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): lt is a del ight to have an opportunity to rise once again in the beginning of a new Leg islature, this bei ng the 34th.

I came in with the young gentleman from the riding of Flin Flon in 1981 and of course I watched him grow in that period of time. He has probably watched me grow. Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence and the indulgence of other Mem bers of the House, I would like to take a few moments, if I could, given that I did not have an opportunity to deba te the Throne Spee ch, I would like to make a few comments at this particular time. 313 I wo uld like to, fi rst of all, beg in by offering congratulations to the Speaker. As you would know, Mr.

Chairman, indeed as every Member of this House wou ld know, that his role is so important to the proceedings of this House. As a matter of fact, this House cannot do its business without his involvement. Inde ed, if there is not respect for role as the Speaker, we cannot function; we cannot do the business of the people. So I congratulate him.

This may be moving into the realm of impropriety, but I can remember the Speaker , when he was seeking nomina tion in his particular riding-that great riding of Turtle Mountain the large numb er of people who were there in attenda nce in 19 86 and how it was that he presented himself to the people of that riding; tho se people who ultimately supported him in a political fashion and therefore from that point was able to bring forward the support of the constituents by way of general election now two times in the last three years. He, that night, struck me as an individual who was a friend to all.

He was spirited ; he was also conciliatory and he brings those very same elements and facets into the House. That is why I think unanimously we put him in this place as the Speaker of our House. Thank you. (Applause) I thank the Memb er for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) for that polite applause. I would like to also thank the voters of Morris. I had the opportunity to present myself to them on three occasions, 19 81, 19 86 and 19 88. They have decided to favour me with their support.

I must tell you that the constituency of Morris is the rural riding that basically borders Winnipeg to the south and to the west. lt is agricultural for the most part although a larger number of people today are moving into those hamlets and communities that are within commuting distance of the City of Winnipeg to enjoy the amenit ies of rural livi ng, and I say welcome to them. The constitue ncy of Morris is taking on a little bit di fferent perspective and a different flavour over the ensu ing years. Let me say, I also welcome new Mem bers.

I can remember in 19 82 when I first came into this House on my first occasion, my first Throne Spee ch, and the great honour that I felt in being here. I apologize for not bei ng able to hear all of the presenta tions of new Mem bers on our side, and of course the many new Mem bers opposite, but as I read your comments and as I will have an opportunity in the future to listen to you speak, I will probably sit in judgment of your growth, as indeed you will sit in judgment of my performance. 11 seems to be a continuing dynamism that occurs within this House. We watch each other very closely.

I dare say, through it, you can see those people that want to grow, you can see it occur from event to event, from speaking occasion, from speaking to occasions. So I we lcome the opportunity to sit in judgment, if I can use that ter m. I must say, so far I have been very impressed with the new House. Ther e is a wide diversity of people that have come here as representatives of the people. There is a wide array of talents. However, I would like to say to those Mem bers who are no longer here, those who ret ired voluntarily, those who ret ired with the will of the people, I say well done.

I do not think at times the

Thur sday, August 4, 1988 public fully unde rstands how it is or what it is that we do. New Members at this point may not fully understand what it is we do but I am sure in short order they will come to real ize and have a new appreciation for what it is to be not only a representa tive of the people but what it is in terms of making commitments of time to that role. Bel ieve me, if one does that duty well and carries out that responsibil ity and discharges that responsibility, they will realize it is at least a full-time occupation. I, however, would like to take issue with the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs), not in anything that she has said over the course of the new Session, but something that she said previous to the swea ring in of the new Cabinet. The Leader of the Opposition, the Mem ber for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), said-and I have to be careful here, maybe she did not say this, but it has been purported she said certa in thi ngs about certain Members on this side of the House. She was speculating as to who might be put into Cabi net and to wt'lat roles certain individuals might have.

Supposedly the Leader of the Opposition said, and if I am paraphrasing incorrectly I will expect her to explain more fully, and I quote, "the Filmon's minority Gove rnment could be in trouble if the new Premier picks the wrong people for Cabinet jobs. " Going on, she said she is opposed to two key Tory M LA's receiving Cabi net appointments related to their previous responsibilities as Opposition critics. She named primarily the MLA for Pem bina (Mr. Orchard) and, indeed , the MLA for Morris (Mr. Manness).

Again she was purported to have said that both MLAs are in the rural right wing of the caucus and both have been identified with the faction that opposed Mr. Filmon as Leader. She went on more specifically, and I will let the MLA for Pem bina defend himself. I think he can do that.

Although he has been characterized in some quarters as being almost a pussy cat, I will let him defend his own honour in this case. * (1 550) There is an important epilogue to what the Leader of the Opposition said as she was purported to have said, and I quote, "she does not want Manness, referring to myself, to become Finance Minister because of his earlier suggestion that the NDP should trim about $13 4 million from Government spending." Now there are two points here and I have to make them.

Firstly, when the Leader of the Opposition decides to label myself in particular as a right wing rural representative, of course she is trying to conjur up in the public mind set that we represent those of us that are rural , particularly those of us who are deemed to be right wing, again by her label ling, indeed some other people's label ling. She is trying to conjur up the image, or at least she was then, that we were going to do drastic things in the area of spending, that there were going to be major reductions in areas of need ed services to Manitobans. I personally can accept that.

I do not agree with what she said but I can accept the criticism. I am a politician 314 and I have no illusions. I did not delude myself for one moment before I came into this Leg islature what the role of a politician would be and what criticisms I could expect from time to time. So that comes as no surprise. Ther e is no hurt att ached to that. There is hurt associated with that comment, not to me, but to my constituents, and who the Leader of the Opposition slandered when she made the comment saying, in essence, that I was not fit to be in this very important role as the Minister of Finance.

Who she slandered was not me. She slandered the people of the constituency of Morris who in large number decided for the third time that I should be their representative in this hallowed institution. Now the Leader said they did not pass judgment as to whether or not I should be the Finance Minister. What were they saying? They were saying in essence, we want the representative of the Progr essive Conservative Party, i.e., Mr.

Manness, to be their representative, and I am sure what they were saying also is that whatever role is the most important to Govern ment, we would like him to be in that place, as I am sure the electora te from the constituency of River Heights said to the MLA for that riding. I am sure they wanted her to be the Premier and if they did not, why did they vote for her? If the Leader of the Opposition feels she has slandered me, I do not feel that, but I say to her she slandered the people of Morris, and I dare say she slandered to some deg ree the people from Pembina, and indeed all of rural Manitoba.

Do you not notice, cannot one notice, Members of the House, when you look over at the Opposition benches, how many rural Memb ers sit thereon? How many pure rural members? -(lnterjection) Oh, I am careful, I am very careful. I choose my words carefully, I say to the Opposition Deputy House Leaders. The only point I am trying to make is that it becomes so easy to put labels on people, but what we forget is when we do it in this forum, or indeed outside of this forum, is that we also la bel the people who put represe ntatives into this institution.

I would lik e to make one final comment about this place called the Leg islature. lt is something that I will repeat, and I cannot repeat it wel l, but I was at the induction of Justice Lyon, when he was inducted to the Appeal Court. He talked about the high callings, about the high calling of being named to that Court of Appeal, but what he said was this, paraphrasing, that the highest calling that any of us can have is to be a representat ive of the people.

There can be no higher calling, and even though there would be those in our midst, indeed some of us ourselves, but those in our midst, particularly sometimes those people who report on our activities, would lead people to belie ve that politicians really are not to be highly regarded , that the esteem associated with them is something other than that which should be given to a high calling.

That troub les me very much because I say and because I belie ve that as the esteem of politicians falls, and I wonder how much lower it can really fall, the love of dem ocracy and the freedom that we have fought for so hard for also continues to fall. So I say to Members opposite, I say to Me mbers of this side, this is a hallowed institution. We are duly

Thur sday, August 4, 1988 ele cted ; we have a major, an important role to play, if indeed we cherish dem ocracy at all. I am glad to be here. I would like to say a few comments with respect to the elec tion. This Province, Manitoba, is unique in so many ways. lt is hard to read pol itically. I would hesitate to say, not terribly easy to govern. I do not make that judgment on the basis of being in Government for approximately three months. I make that after having watched, particularly the former administration, try and de al with issues of the day, and also Gove rnments before that.

This is not an easy province to govern. Nevert heless, the commitment that we made to the people of the province is ver y basic and very straightforward . We said that we would provide better managemen t, we would provide better efficiency, that we would provide greater accountabil ity.

I say to you that is why we are on this side of the House today, because I honestly sense that Manitobans feel that there is not a magic solution to the ills in which we find ourself, but what they are expecting is that the people who make up the Gove rnment, who sit on this side of the Speaker , bring forward honest, open, sincere Government. That was our watchword throughout the ele ction. That is why we are here today, and I fully expect that after we have been here for a number of years that we will be given our cred it for having not only demonstrated that, but indeed providing that type of openness.

I say then that this will be an open Govern ment. There will not be ruling by de cree . There will not be ruling by warrant. That is then what takes us right into this Interim Supply, because we had an opportunity, probably to pass another month of Special Warrant and hold off Interim Supply for some period of time. The precedent was in place.

But I honestly believe there is no higher and greater responsibility than each and every one of us, as representative of the people, to make sure that those hard-earned tax dollars, which we at times talk about so glib ly, which we at times pass over so hastily in consideration as to how they will be spent, there can be no gr eater expectat ion than that we deal forthrightly as to how they should be spent. Mr. Chairman, this becomes the first process towards making sure that they are spent properly. I would also like to indicate at this time the Budget will be coming down August 8 at 2:30 p.m.

We would expect there may be cause for a slight recess in the period of time between the Question Period and the formal start of the Budg et. With it will also come the Quarterly Report, the final Quarterly Report indicating the finances for the fiscal year ending '87-88, and also the outside auditor's report, outside professionals who have a strong unde rstan din g of public sect or accounting; people who will be passing judgment as to the accounting policies that should be brought in as this whole process of public sector accounting is very much ev olutionary.

I, at this point, am not going to lay blame on the former administration, the former policies in place with respect to accounting. What I am saying is that this area is evol utionary and there is a common mind set as to how Gover nments should be constantly reviewi ng 315 the accounting policies in place and how it is they should be reporting to the people. So, Mr. Chairman, with those few remarks, I welcome Mem bers to a very complicated process. Now, as we move into the Committee of Supply, there will be a lot of shuffling around as we ultimately move toward Bill No. 7 -The Interim Supply Act.

Thank you. * (16 00) Mr. Chairman: Does any other Mem ber wish to speak to this Resolution? Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): Mr. Chairman, we in the Official Opposition know that the Government needs money to conduct its business during the current fiscal year. We also know that the Budget Debate next week will provide our Mem bers with ample opportunity to address the Government's revenue and expend iture plans. Ther efore, Mr. Chairman, it is not our intention to obstruct passage of this Interim Supply Bill in any way. Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): The comments made by the Member for Transcona (Mr.

Kozak), I think, are appropriate. Everyone recognizes that Interim Supply has been a part of the process of Government on occasion for many decades and there is certainly no intention to be obstructionist in the passage of this legisla tion. However, I belie ve that as time goes by, and before Bill No. 7 actually is passed, there may be a number of quest ions that I have and that my colleagues have that we will address to the Minister of Finance. Before I get to some of the specific que stions that I have, I want to take this opportunity as well to commend and give recognition to the new Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness). The Memb er for Morris (Mr. Manness) made the observance that we were ele cted and are colleagues, in a sense, and have been since 19 81, since our election at that time. My knowledge and familiarity with the Mem ber for Morris has led me to garner a great deal of respect for that individual as a Mem ber and as a human being, and I know that he will conduct himself in a manner -(Interject ion)-The Memb er for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) may consider that the kiss of death. However, I am going to continue.

The Mem ber for Mo rris has gai ned himself a reputation for being a person with a great deal of integr ity, also common sense. I look forward to the Budge t that he will del iver to this House. You can reciprocate those kind of comments any time you wish, to the Mem ber for Morris. I look forward to the Budget on August 8. lt is certainly going to be a challenge. The Minister waxed philosophic about the role that we all play as representativ es of the people and, I think, touched on some appropriate and poignant points that we sometimes forget . Certainly those who observe us in this Chamber are wont to forget .

That is that, despite the antics from time to time, we are here to fulfil! an important role in the functioning of democracy. No one,

Thu rsday, August 4, 1988 I do not believe on either side of this House representing any Party, comes here and treats their obligations in anything but a serious manner. From time to time because of the nature of the process, it becomes theatre, but that does not belie the fact that it is an important process . Paraphrasing perhaps Winston Churchill, it is not a very good process but it is the only one that works. I gue ss the Minister of Finance indicated that he did not like the nom de plume, righ t-wing rural representa tive. Perhaps I am being naive here, but I do not expect a Budg et which is unduly severe.

I do not think that the right-wing instincts in the Tory caucus-and I would not deny that they are there are going to surface on this particular occasion. I say that because I think that the Government is somewhat prag matic and recog nizes the reality of the circumstances the y are in. They are a min ority Govern ment. I think that it is reasonable to assume that their natural instincts are going to be contained by circumstance. We are cert ainly hoping that will be the case.

Manitobans did not give the Conservative Government a majority because they were concerned about the real agenda of some Mem bers or perhaps most of the Mem bers on that side. One of the difficult tasks facing the Minister of Finance is going to be the prepara tion of a Budg et, the presentat ion of a Budget which is understan dable, honest and straightforward . I said in passing to the Minister of Finance in the hall and, in fact, I also said it across the floor of the Chamber that the Minister was busy cooking the books. He took some umbrage at those comments. I said it not facetiously.

The fact is that the process of changing Governments, the changing of the guard , if you will, allows for certain changes in practice, in reporting. I want the public to know, and this is my occasion to put the se comments on the record, that what we are going to see in the Budg et introduced by the Mem ber is a change in practice from previous years in all likeli hood. We are going to see some additional debt charged to the previ ous year , lea ving more flexi bility for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) in the current year.

We are going to see a number of- 1 was going to say questionable, but I do not want to impugn the motives of the Minister of Finance. There are going to be changes that are going to and are in tended to reflect nega t ively on the fina ncial circumstances of the province. The Minister of Finance will certainly, in the first 50 percent of his speech, be spending time denouncing the previous Govern ment, denouncing the financial circumstances of the province at this time and trying to prepare people for his new agen da.

I think that it would be useful to put on the record the financial circumstances of the province. We have all noted , or some of us have noted , that the fourth quarter report has not been tab led in this Legislature, and there is a very good reason for that. I will leave it for each individual Memb er to speculate as to why the fourth quarter results have not been tabled , because I

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 10.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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