Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, APRIL 9, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 48

A~ril 9, 1976, Tape 1986, Page 1 -- apb The Rouse met at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. ~. SPEAKER: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS 'MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the ~inister of Fisheries. HR. Tv. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I informed the House of the decision by government to provide boats under leases to those bona fide fishermen who are unable to raise sufficiertt capital to buy them. I expressed the concern of government over the rising costsof buying new and used boats and the need for assistance by ~overnment if many of our fishermen were to continue operating their boats in the industry.

Today,! am again extremely happy to announce another new programme of assistance to our fishermen, this time to those who wish to build their own boats and to boatyards that want to increase their production to meet increased demands. This will be accomplished through payment of a new bounty on boats which do not qualify for the federal bounty. Late in 1970, the government of the day hegan paying a bounty of from S10 to $12 per foot for boats ranging from 20 to 35 feet in length. Certainly, that may have been adequate in 1970 but today, more than five years later, it has become far from adequate.

In the latter half of 1970, one could build a 30 foot boat without engine for $1,200 with a provincial bounty of $12 per foot. Today, the same will cost more than $3,000. In other words, the 1970 hounty, which represented approximately 25 ner cent of the cost of the new boat, is now worth only 10 per cent of the cost. As you are m~are, Mr. Speaker, in many parts of our Province small boats are needed and fishermen can make a very good living in th6se boats. In regard to that fact it is our intention to now increase the bounty on small boats,from ?0 to 35 feet, to 35 per cent of their construction coSti 5350

April 9, 1976, Tape 1986, Page 2 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: This, Mr. Speaker, will bring the subsidy on small boats in line with that paid by the federal government on lingliners over 3S feet. This new programme, Sir, will cost the government this year, an additional $225,000 above and beyond the $125,000 which would have been paid under the old subsidy programme. The total cost of the new subsidy programme will be $350,000 providing that there is not a great increase in the number of small boats being built or in the cost of their construction. I am very proud, Mr.

Speaker, to have been able to announce two new programmes, yesterday and today, and I look forward to being able to reveal even more benefits to our fishermen in the near future. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: I might point out to you, Mr. Speaker, when I say that there is a need for smaller boats, and the fact that many of our fishermen are getting back to small boats because of the increased cost of larger boats, that statistics show that in the entire fiscal year of 1974-75, bounties were paid on only 383 such boats; 383 bounties were paid on small boats.

In the fist eight months of the last fiscal year, bounties were paid on 406 such boats. So there is a substantial increase in the number of small boats being built, and~of course, the reasons are as I have pointed out, the increased cost of the larger boats. Mr. Speaker, the government, Sir, recognizes the importance of our inshore fishermen and the vital role they are playing in the preservation of our Newfoundland way of life and their contribution to the future and social and economic well­ being of the hundreds of communities that depend on the fisherfes around our Province.

Our inshore fishermen, Sir, are an integral 5351

.:. April 9, 1976, Tape 1986. ~ane 3 -- apb 'IR. l~. CARTER: part of our economy and I am determined that they will be g~ven the same rights as those afforded other Newfoundlanders who are engaged in the professions or in other fields of endeavour,to assistance by the government to enable them to earn a decent living in their chosen vocation~ the fisheries. HR. NEARY: Send me over a copy , ·~/alter ' . 'fR . 1~. CARTER: You have a COJ"IY• '1R. NF • .J\RY: l~ere? ~ . w. CARTER: On your desk. :om. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. 53 52

April 9, 1976 Tape No. 1987 NM- 1 CAPTAIN WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, needless to say, Sir, we on this side of the House, at the least the official Opposition,are very happy and I am sure the fishermen will be very grateful, especially those fishermen who are still using the small boats, and I suppose this applies to boats such as dories and all other types of boats up to thirty-five feet. For a long time, Sir, the government has ignored these fishermen. }ffi. W, CARTER: Not this government. CAPTAIN HINSOR: Yes, since 1970. The minister has made a statement in a statement that it has not been increased since 1970, ~r.

Speaker. So it would indicate to me, Mr. Speaker, there are by-elections just around the corner and we can expect more announcements like this made the other day. MR. MURPHY: li"ow, now! }ffi. SPEAKER: Order, please! CAPTAIN WINSOR: However, Mr. Speaker, in line with what the hon. Minister of Fisheries, his announcement yesterday, I noticed in today's paper where there are two boats, similar to what the minister outlined yesterday that would be repossessed and hired to fishermen,are up for sale today, tenders for purchases to satisfy mortgages, HR. W. CARTER: That has no bearing at all.

CAPTAIN WINSOR: It has a bearing on your yesterday's statement, ~1r. Speaker, which you referred to today. So it is a recognized fact, Mr. Speaker, that the cost of constructing boats has gone up . like all other construction,and like all other costs it is going up daily,and I say, Sir, it is long overdue that the government took note of that particular fisherman because we have an awful lot of fishermen who are operating from small '·boats, who have not just been able to replace their boats because the costs have been too high. And I am very happy today that the Minister bf Fisheries recognized 5353

April 9, 1976 Tape No. 1987 NM- 2 CAPTAIN WINSOR: that fact and now he is making a move to help them. So, Sir, we certainly are grateful t~ him and I am sure we speak on behalf of all those fishermen who would be using that type of boat, that they will be very pleased and happy to hear the minister's statement. I congratulate him. SOME HON. MElffiERS: Hear! Hear! CAPTAIN WINSOR: He is doing a very good job, Mr. Speaker, very fine that those by-elections were coming up. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLHOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I too, I join with my bon. friend from Fogo, whose sincerity no man ever doubts ,I think. I join with him in congratulating the minister and the adminstration on this additional announcement. l~e both did so yesterday and I think with good reason. and we do so again today. I frankly do not care why the government are making these improvements. Even if one could honestly attribute the worst motives to the government, I still welcome them and I still congratulate them.

Even if they have in mind by-elections in three constituencies, two of which are involved very much in the fisheries, even so,I am afraid,they still would not be establishing a precedent. I believe that tpat sort of thing has been known to occur to the minds of politicians before. MR. MORGAN: Is that true? MR . SMALLWOOD: Well,I have heard the rumour. Of course I never did that sort of thing myself, nor would I be associated with that sort of thing. I encourage the minister. He is a young minister. He is a young Newfoundlander.

He was deported from Newfoundland for a number of years, living up in foreign territory,but now he is back home. I am sure, I am quite sure, that he is determined to do something more for the fisheries and thereby make a great name for himself,and I am all for him in that. And 1 can only- I am trying to think of a name, a word. The lfinister of Mines and Energy evidently has a special kind of dictionary there, a 5354

April 9, 1976 Tape No . 1987 MR. ~~WOOD: collection of unusual words , I wish he would look it up and help me to find a word to describe that gro up the.re silting opposite ~ , the handsomest ministers in the government, and amongst the handsomest men in the House and energetic and ambitious and I would like to find a name, not Kiddies Corner . MR . 'IURI'HY: True ~ewfoundlanders . MR. SMALLWOOD: l-lha t would you call it? Y<R. ~!URPHY: True Newfoandlanders. MR. SMALLWOOn: Oh tJell,they are all around us. We do not just have to look there to get true Newfoundlanders .

I will t hink of a word to describe that band over there of energetic and ambitious young ministe rs,an d when I think of it I will introduce it . I do congratulate the minister . 5355

April 9, 1976. Tape 1988 RH- 1 ~ m. SPF..AKER : If the hon. member is rising to speak with reference to the ministerial statement then he. will not be able to do so. The hon. Hinister of Education. !TON. lv. I!OUSF.: Mr. Speaker, this is a statement regarding the High School Drama Festival. As indicated in the provincial budget, March 26, the dep~rtment will continue to sponsor the annual provincialHigh School Drama Festival.

Due to the uncertainty as to what projects would he affected as a result of announced restraints,the necessary preliminary regional festivals and administrative organization required for the final provincial festival was considerably delayed. In addition to this, the original plans for the festival this year called for it to take place in the new Arts and Cult11re Centre at Gander. For a, number of reasons, this has heen delayed. The opening of the Arts and Culture Centre has been delayed until July of this year.

In view of these fnctors and results of discussions with school boards around the Province and high schools,it has been decided to hold the festival in the Fall instead of the Spring. This year's 1Jrama Festival, of course, will take place in November rather than in April. This will give schools adequate time to prepare for it. !mother reason for us to be agianst holding it in April is the fact that the provincial Drama Festival was on at that time When a lot of the people involved in it could not give assistance to the schools.

So that will take place now in November and in the next little while the department will be notifying all schools to that effect. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. m:. R. SIM!10NS: Mr. Soeaker, just a word in response to the minister's statement. I certainly welcome the indication from government that this prn~ramme is going to continue. I think that is the gist of what the minister was saying,and the change of date this year,if I heard him correctly. 5356

April Cl, 107(,. MR . SillltoNS : Tape 1988 RH - 2 This High School Drama Festival has played a fairly significant role in the so-called extra curricular activities of particularly the schools in Central Newfoundland. I afl tempted to get into the area of discussion as my colleague from Fogo (Capt. v7insor) did by pointing out that the point of origin for this vas Bishops Falls,which coincidentally is in the district of Exploits. But whatever the case, Mr.

Speaker, the town of Bishops 1'a]ls and the high school in particular,has got a new name, Eng lis Hemorial High School nm~ I believe, but the central high school to which I went on one occasion for a month or eo,was the originator of this particular High School Drama Festival. The late Doctor Helen Tuck some twelve or fourteen years ago actually began the festival. Then it spread to the immediate Central Newfounrlland area, the Grand Falls-Springdale­ Botwood area anrl eventually embraced Gander. Now I am glad to see it has become essentially a provincial phenomenon -yes, that is true.

The minister indicates it is. I have not been follm~ing it that closely in recent years, but I know something of the contribution it has made to high school students' education. Some of my own family at Bishops Falls were involved during the initial years. I commend the minister and his department for insuring that this very valuable programme will continue. In conclusion, }1r. Speaker, may I make one recommendation only to the minister, that he use his influence, throw· his weight around, to see if he can enroll the member for St. John's Centre(Hr. Murphy) in that high school drama festival.

He may learn something. HR. MURPHY: That from 'Roger' is a compliment. rffi.. SPEAKEr:.: The hon. Hinister of Tourism. JJON. T. HICKEY: "r. Speaker, I have been informed by the Labrador Inuit i\s~ociation of a grave situation developing with reference to the annual caribou hunt in the Northern Zone. Recent gasoline shortages in the area prevented the use of snmJI!Iobiles normally used to transport htmters inland to where the caribou are wintering. As a result, very few of the eligible hunters in t1-j_e ~wne }1ave provinerl the needed supply of caribour meat for their families . .

This problem has been compounded by a recent mild spell which 5357

April 'l, 1'1711. Tape 1CJ8fl RTT - 3 ~m. HICKEY: rendered travel by machines almost impossible. H:my hunters have had to leave their sleds loaded ~rith caribou meat in the country , hoping to return for them when conditions improve. Caribou hunting season in the Northern zone is due to terminate on April 17. However, the Innuit Association has requested an extension of this season to April 30 in anticipation of colder weather, it will improve travelling conditions and allow the hunters to procure their needed meat supply. As a result of this representation hy the Innuit Association, and I might add, ~!r.

Speaker, also representation by my colleague, the member for Naskaupi(Hr. Condie) and my friend across the •my, the member for Eagle River(t-'r. Strachan), 1 am today fonmrdi.ng the follo~ring telex to Hr. HilHam Edmunds, President of the Labrador Innuit Association. "Considering the circumstances outlined in your telex with reference to caribou huntinp; in the Northern zone ,l have no hesi.tation in granting the extension of the caribou season as per your request to April 30 and hope the conditions will improve to allow hunters in the area to fill their quotas.

In granting this request we would appreciate your assistance in insuring that caribou regulations for the area are adhered to and good conservation measures are practiced." SOHE HON . HEMBE!lS ; Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The han. tlinister of Hanpower and Industrial Relations. HR. E. MAYNARD: ~'r. Speaker, as we recall a fe'' weeks ago I announced to the House the appointment of a Human Rights Commission to investigate certain allegations of discrimination in employment made by three residents of T.ahrador City. The three men, Hilliam Armstrong, Noel Seaward and Samuel J.

Codner.were former employees of the Iron Ore Company of Canada. 5358

April 9, 1971i Tape no. 1989 Page 1 - mw Mr. Maynard. In each case the men found employment with contractors operating in Labrador City and peforming work for the Iron Ore Company. They alleged that the Iron Ore Company exerted pressure on their employer, the contractor, to terminate their services, because they had been dismissed previousiy from their employment with IOC. However, shortly after announcing the appointment of Mrs. Gertrude Keough as Chairman of the Commission, and Mrs.

Keough has been permanent commissioner of the Human Rights Commission for some years, shortly after the announcement,a representative of the United Steel Workers Union made a statement to the press expressing displeasure with the appointment, because Y~s. Keough is allegedly related to a senior official of IOC. Some days later a letter arrived in my office outlining the same complaint. Initially after hearing the objections, I had no intention of cl<anging the Chairman of the Commission, because I do consider Nrs. Keough to be a person of the highest integrity. SOME HON. HENBERS : Hear, hear! ~m.

MAYNARD: And I am confident that any relationship that may exist between her and any other person would not have impaired the impartially of the enquiry. SOME HON. !1EMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. MAYNARD: I also considered the possibility of cancelling the commission because of what.was, in my view, an unwarranted and unjustified questioning of the character of the Human Rights Commissioner.

However, considering the circumstances surrounding the termination of em?loyment of the three people involved, I felt that they should have the opportunity of having their cases fully investigated regardless of the unnecessary interference of the union officials supposedly speaking on their behalf, But I might point out, Mr. Speaker, that neither one of the three people involved made any complaints to me, and I can only assume that the union 5359

April 9, 1976 Tape no. 1989 Page 2- mw ;-!r. Haynard . official took it upon himself to do it. However, shortly after the complaints were aired in the media,~trs. Keough, for understandable reasons, contacted me to say that she would rather not act as Chairman of the Commis:;>ion under these circumstances. But since I felt that a commission should be appointed in any case I therefore appointed as ·chairman of the Commission Mr. Mike Hanahan, a Corner Brook lawyer, with Mr. Fred Coates,director of the division, as a member.

It ls expected that the commission will begin its inquiry in Labrador City on April 27, 1976. Hhile I am up, Mr. Speaker, a short progress report on the Churchill Falls negotiations. Most members are aware by this time that two officials of my department, Ur. Blanchard, the deputy minister,and rtr. Noseworthy, the Director of Labour Relations,went into Churchill Falls yesterday and had meetings Hith the company ·.md union officials during yesterday, last night, and meetings are continuing today in an attempt to mediate the dispute in that area.

I would hope that they will have further reports to make on that later in the day. HR. NEARY: E not, will they get an industrial enQuirv? lffi. MAYNARD: I will make that decision later . l·:.R. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. l!R. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, may I first make a comment with respect to the minister's second statement, the Churchill Falls Labour­ management dispute, or the negotiations. '~e all look forward Hith interest and eager anticipation to the further announcement,and hopefully that announcement will be that the dispute has been resolved on an amicable basis.

It will obviously take a long time to restore the staff management relations 5360

Apri} 9, 1971i Tape 1990 PK - 1 ~!r. Roberts: at ClJUrchill Fa] 1 s to t!1e happy state they had reached before the strike start0d, ~nd before the situation started to deteriorate. I do not Hant to say anything more now,expect to say that we all hope the str.il,c is resolved quickly and on a fair and equitable basis. Hith respect to the first announcement, Mr. Speaker, I MURt say that I think the minister has done the right thing in a very difficult situation. I was very glad to hear him reaffirm his faith in the inter,rity and the ability of Hrs. Keough.

I knmJ that every member of the !louse feels this way, that she is a lady admirably qualified for this work, and that there could be no possible question of any improper attitude being taken by her towards any matter on which she is asked to adjudicate or to give her opinion.

I think it is very much to be regretted that - not that an objection was taken, I thlnk any person has the right to take an objection tCl the appointment of an arbitrator or any person in mediation or a middle role, in an adjudicator rol~ but I think it is most unfortunate that the objection was taken publicly before it was communicated to the minister. I think that could only have the effect of embarrassing Mrs. Keough, and I am sure the person ;;ho took the objection did not intent to embarrass Mrs. Keough in any 1~ay, but it could only have had the effect. So it is very much tl'l be regretted.

I think the minister has handled it in the right Hay. I think Mrs. Keough has shown once again her integrity and her dignity and her sense of the right and proper thing by coming to the minister and saying,"I feel I should not act. I would ask you please to appoint somebody else to act in this case~' So I think it is a happy resolution to what was a very difficult problem. ~r. Monahan,a lawyer in Corner Brook with the firm of Barry anc1 llells, I believe, or the present firm of Barry and Wells, it may not he too long that firm, but an associate in law of Mr. Barry and Mr.

Wells, and they are partners, I am sure will 5361

April 9, 1976 Tape 1990 PK- 2 "!r. Roberts: hring knowledge and skill to bear and whatever the result of the procedure will be the equitable one on the facts and the evidence thRt is presented. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! ~lR.. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Education. noN. W. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker, I want to assure the members that this is not political. I was assured that anything new that came up I would ask that it be brought to the House before I would put it to the nress. This is more of an interest note.

Members of the House ~rill recall that the current teachers collective agreement make provision for the awarding of special educational leave to teachers, or sabbatical leave. Leave is granted on recommendation of a committee appointed with representation from the NTA, the Federation of School Boards and the Department of Education. And it has been decided t:hat t1vo teachers will be granted leave during the Fall semester,and this leave will include two-thirds of their salary that they will earn in the discharge of their duties, and,of course, the regular fringe benefits that go with the salaries.

So I am very pleased to announce that upon the recommendation of the Committee I just referred to, and with the concurrence of the school boards concerned,leave will be granted next year to two teachers in Newfoundland,Mr. Wilfred Rumbolt and Mrs. Monica ~1oriarity. My department wishes to congratulate these two teachers on the award of their special leave and the honour attacked to it, since this is the first time that it has happened. Mr. Speaker, we wish them both continued success in their efforts to improve their tE'aching qualifications. "~R.~EAKER: The hen. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. "!R. R.

SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker, I am very delighted to respond to the announcement made by the Minister of Education. Many sitting «ithin the hearinR of his voice this morning nay not get the full sir,nificance of Hhat has been said,because it is something that is in some respects a bit jargonistic, a bit involved in the profession of education particularly, but something nevertheless that educators 5362

April ~, 1976 Tape 1990 PK - 3 'IR . S I:'MO?lS: for a long time, teac he rs throughout this Province have not only worked han\ for, but have deserv ed to have available to them , It is n practice that has long been the case i n many other parts of ~o r th ;\mcrica, indeed I believe we must be one of the last jurisdic tion s to officially inaugurate this leave taking aJ;rangcrent.

During ~y time with the Newfoundland Teachers Association it is one of t he items that we we.-e able to get agreement in principle on from government ~~d I am glad to see now that afte r some t~e has elapsed , two or three years since then, since my involvement there, thnt the principl e has been put into practice nnd I know the minis ter's involvement in another arena,when he 14as very active 11ith the tlewfoundland Teachers Associatio n, that he had no small

part in helpin g formula t e that

part icular policy of the NTA, with which policy he is now wearing another hat , he is able to announce and be a party to. I congratulat e him and I b eliev e I expres sed the sentiments of certainly all Newfoundland teachers when I say that I believe it is a good thin~ . It is a step in the right direction . It is true there are only t-wo. but like all new thin~ s they must nrow f r om small beginnings . I beli eve the minister and his department have made a r.ood be~inning here ,and on behalf of me and my colleagues I would lil-.c. to congra tulate him and his officials for taking this step . 5363

April C), 1976 Tape No. 1991 NM- 1 "1'. SPEAKER: The hon. M1nister of 'IUnes and Energy. ~'ll. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I know that the President and certain officers of the St. John's Board of Trade are in the gallery, I thought it mi~bt be a good time to report that ~~e have received a communication from them containing a complaint about the way the nnr and the Canad:!.an Government are operat:l.ng the St. John's Airport,and their discrimination against St. John's _.li_rnort ry their refusal to permit charter flights to leave from ~t. John's A:f.rport even though St.

John's Airport is designated, as are other airportR such as London, Ontario,as suitable for charter flights, international and otherwise. T see no reason, Hr. Speaker, v7hy this attitude should be taken .. ,ith respect to St. John 1 s Ai'r:l)ort. This is not the same issue as ~-:hether or not St. John's Airport should be an international aiport, 1,•!1ether there should he more than one international aiport in !'\ewfoundland. This is a question of whether or not charter flights that originate •dth r.roups from the City of St. John's should be permitted to leave frot!l St.

John's .ld.rport,or vrhether they should have tn p:o to Gander to leave from there and return to Gander. There are two particular cases, one involving a naval reunion in the United ·anr;clom this summer, June,I believe it is, ~~here although they are originating from St. John's, thev have p,ot to go to Gander to get a charter flip;ht, ~lthour,h there is no reason whatsoever, no valid reason,for their not beinp, able to leave St.

John's Airport, and involving one of the high schools in the city where they now have to bus all tbe children to Gander /d.rport to take a charter flight to the UK, and this is really, "r. Speaker, intolerable and the nepartment of Intergovernmental Affairs will be taking this matter up ,,,ith the authorities in Ottawa to see if we can get some change in that respect. ~~ . S ~0~~ Could the minister before he sits down indicate ~-,hy is it that he indicated why the flight has to originate from St, John's, r.a~der, the charter flight? ''1'. C1'nSBTE: They will not permit these flights to originate from St. John's.

AN H(JN • MIDIBEF : It must be regulations. ~'1'. Sl'"l''ONS: It is a neH policy, really. 5364

:\pril !', t 1'17(. "!'ape No. l!lQl NM- 2 "R. Cll~'~SBJE : 1 t i.s not because of the re~ulations , but they have di!tcretionacy powers to pet'IUit it, and they seem to be determined to m:ercise their disc ret ion so t.'lat . they are not permitted, with feeble excuses about custom clearance and the like. HR .

Sl'!U.1!:!!~0_D..!. '·1ould the minister be kind enough to give us a little so~ething hy way of a definition of the difference between an aiport ~at i s an international airport, that has the status of an international airport - and of course we are all familiar with that argument and that dispute- and one which ,though not an international airport nevertheless is the point of origin of international flights?

It is important,because 1.f that can be established on a reasonable basis then in God' s name why should not a cro~1d of youngsters - I had two gradsons in one group, and there have been lots of groups that have flown over to Europe, but they had to go to r.ander - why could ~ey not get aboard an aircraft here or any other group tha t may be got up in a speeial charter flight, not a regular scheduled airline flight but special occasions, would the minister tell us what is really technically the difference between the ttio? 5365

".pril 9, 1976 Tape 1992 IB-1 l'T'. SH'J"ONS: 1 would like to have a word before the minister responds, nnd perhaps he can responrl to the point I want to raise, too. I must nrlmi t I '"as not following the minister closely, but I am pm:zled by the p;ist of what I am getting,because I know that on a number of occasions in the past two or three years there have been charter flights. Indeec I •~as involved in one about three or four years ago which went directl y from here. to London. Indeec1 that night, I believe, there were four or five left.

I remember on the return 1ve were in the airport w!.en we were one of seven flights coming in the same day. J·T •• !1. COLL!}IS: There is no problem on a day in the year when tl•erc Is no fo"- in . 1"T'.. S I! WONS : Yes, l<ell that was to be my - ~!!:. H. COLLINS: There is no problem when the fog is out. l'P . SI! Wf1NS: ' lr.

Speaker, I am wondering really - and this is to be my question to the minister - I am wondering if there is so!'le ne• ~ pol icy that has come into being since the time I am referrinr; to, because at that time charter flights particularly, for the !'tudents to which the metnber for Twillingate (l'r. Smalhvoorl) referred, was very much in vogue ancl there were literally dozens of these flights -I do not knoi·T about do~ens, but certainly a dozen or so during the calendar year 1g72 and also 1973 for example. I cannot seem to see what the proble!T' is and I plead ignorance on this particular point.

It is quite a distinction,as the hon. member for Twillingate (Nr. Small wood) has mentioned, the distinction of having charter flights originate on the one hand anrl having it declared as an international airport for normal commercial purposes. nut I got from the minister's statement that he was referring to charter flights,and I gather from what he has said that there was SOT'le reason why they were obliged to originate from Gander as opposed to f.t. John's. I wonder would he just clarify that. ' ·'f: . ST'EAY..Eil: The hon. }~inister of }:ines and Energy. ''T' C:POSBIE: Pr .

Speaker, well there is a considerable difference. 5366

April 9, 1~76 Tape 1992 IB-2 ~'11.. CROSBTE: If you are recognized as an international airport, then regular scheduled flights or charter flights could land and take off from St. John's and it would be wide open then as an internat:l.onal airport. That is one situation. But that is not - ~lR. S~•ALLHOOD: Internationally that is recognized all around the Horld,as an international airport. ~'11. . CROSBIE: Yes, right. And then anyone originating a flight from Europe, say, to North America could land at St. John's airport as an international airport rather than Gander.

You know, they will have the full powers as an international airport. But that is not the issue i.n this case. !'IT? . SII.ALLWOOD: No. ~ ·p. CP.OSBIE: This is a case where St. John's Airport as, say, the airport in London, Ontario, there is nothing that prevents them originating charter flights. It is not a question of being recognized as an internati.onal airport, charter flights that originate from St. John's itself or the area around it. And there have been such fli~1ts permitted in the past.

But there seems to be someone in Ottawa ~10 is determined that the customs department and the DOT will use their discretion wherever possible to prevent any charter fltghts oririnating fro!" the City of St. John's, presumably because they thJnk this is of some assistance to Gander, I am sure, r!r. Speaker, that the people in Gander or the member for Gander (Hr. H. Collins) and so on, has no objection \~hatsoever to a fe1~ charter flights a year originating out of St. John's and going to the U.K. or wherever.

So the excuse is being used there, for example, that they have not got the customs facilities or they would not have the customs facilities in June, ancl various excuses like this are being usecl. l'irst it is agree<1,but as it goes up the line then that decision r,ets reversed. Thi.s is discrimination for no good reason whatsoever r.~ga:l . nst t,t. John's and the people involved :In these charter flights who are put to theextra cost of hav:lng to bus themseJves out to Gander, 5367

l'.pril ? , 1 ?76 Tape 1992 lB-3 •rr. rrosul'E: nnd e:ttl:<t tine nnd trou hle . nut it is just not ~:easonable. And we 11re lookin& into thi!:, "r . Speaker, and we intend to protest to Ottawa ns the St. John ' s BoAJ:d <>f Tradr already has c!one. So i t is not a couest ion of us a~kinp for St . John's to be an international airport 1 justthat St . John's be treated the same as other airport s in its Cl'lteuor y across C:anada. <;O'l£ ll()N. ~IJ':11\f."S : !lear , hear! The hon . l"iniste 1: of Tourism . '"' lltCKEY: :-'r . ~pe<~ker, I have another stacen: ent .

T)u rin~ t he pnst number of years off icials of my llistoric Resources Division hnve been activ rly enr,agecl in the acquisition of wide-range hist <'r i.r ohjects having a close ~ssociat ion with the province ' s social :me' cul t ural c:lcvelopnent. Due wainly to insuff icient exhibition space and other factcr s , many of t hese very important his toric objec t s h:tve never been vie1;ed hy our people but rather have been plAced in vnrie>us stp ra ge arens wit'tin t he Historic resou r ces Division. 5368

April 9, 1976 Tape No. 1993 NM- 1 HR. lUCKEY: Recently a decision was made to rectify this situation. The result is the development of a temporary exhibition which is scheduled to open at the Duckworth Street ~~useum on ~1onday, April 12, at 9:00A.M. The exhibit will be open to the general public during normal museum hours for approximately the next two months. Those who visit the exhibit will,! am sure,find it both interesting and stimulating.

By means of an imaginary street scenerthe attempt has been made to exhibit the various historic objects and a scene that hopefully helps to recapture the atmosphere of the times. In addition to an almost fully equipped general store, the exhibit includes appropriately decorated store fronts displaying ships, instruments, period time pieces, antique china, millinary goods, period lighting fixtures, as well as a small early ~-rentieth century film theatre in which silent films are shown.

It is our hope that if the exhibit is w~ll rec~ived to initiate similar projects involving additional artifacts in the future. ~r. Speaker, I extend an invitation to the general public to visit the exhibition. "'-'Tl SMALUmnn: noes that include us? Hl'.. JUCK""Y: Everybody. ~~. NEARY: He are the historic objects. ~~. HICKEY: That is right. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL CO}RiiTTEES: ~'P. SPEAKE. : The han. ~linister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. ~'R. MAYNARD: l~r. Speaker, I have the report of the Workmen's Compensation Board, the year 1975. to table.

I ~~auld suggest han. members should read the report. There are some very interesting statistics and comments in it and I think it relates to every person in this han. House,so it should be given some attention. Possibly 5369

Ap r il CJ, 1Q76 Tape No. 1993 l ~R. HAYNARP: members could learn the work of the llorkmen 's Compensation Board and the important role they play in the provincial structure. ANSI•JERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEE}! GJVEN: Vll. SPEAKE'R: The hon. Ninister of Mines and Energy. mr- 2 H'R. CROSIIIE: ~r. Speaker, I have the answer to question No. 472 on the Order Paper of April 2nd., asked by the han. member for Stephenville (l'r. ~ 1cNeil). I gave the answer verbally, a part of it,a few days ago but anyway the answer is here in wrjting, with some copies. ~"R. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Transportation and Co111111unications. ~''P.. "f0RGAN: '~r.

Speaker, in reply to a question that was asked bv my colleague the ~'inister of Public Works yesterday regarding a tender that was awarded to a company in Ottawa in January for the supply of vehicles which was for the use by our department, Transportation and Communi~ations, the tenders were called in the Fall of 1975 for the supply of thirty-six trucks, Now these trucks were for the use of our snow plowing operations and winter maintenance operations around the Province,,so therefore there was a deadline set on the tender call for the supply of theee vehicles, The vehicles were to be supplied by the 15th. day of January and because the local dealers in the Province could not supply the vehicles on that date,unfortunately, and I say unfortunately,we had to go outside the Province and award the tender call for seventeen of these thjrty-six trucks to a company called '1-facKenzie ~rercury in Ottawa.

And I 1vould like to roint out one thing, that although we went outside thP Province to buy these seventeen vehiciles because of the deadline date, that the price pl!id for these seventeen vehicles was less than the cost and the price paid for these vehicles in the Prov ince. ORAL QUESTIONS: ?~. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. 5370

April 9, 197(• Tape No. 1993 mt- 3 ~!R. NEARY: Mr. Speaket:, in the absence of the Hinistet: of Justice, Sit:, I wonder if the Minist er of Mines and Energy , the Assi s tant Assistan t Assistan t neputy Pt:emief , if the mi.nister would t ell the Rouse what steps the government have taken to plug the loop­ holes 1n the Pro vincial Companies Act, to bat: cet:tain lawy et:s ft:om using theit: secretaries on the shat:e list of the eompany when they register the company in the Regi.stry office . 5371

Apr!] 9. 19 76 Tape No. 1994 NM- 1 HR. SPEi\KFR: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. >!R. CROSRIE: --·- ----- Mr. Speaker, no steps are being taken because there is no need for any steps to be taken. It is the same situation in every country in the Western lvorld. The law firm incorporates a company, and usually the lawyers involved and the secretaries are the first directors,or the incorporatinp; directors. There is nothing sinister about it. There is nothin~ unusual about it. There is no great plot involved in it.

And under The Companies Act at the end of their first year of incorporation.another return has to be filed and by that time the shares are usually transferred to whoever actually owns the companv. So there is no suggestion, we have no sup;p;estion, we have not considered making any change in this matter, There is no reason why there should he any change. In addition to which, Hr. Speaker, the law permits persons to hold shares in trust for other persons and they do not have to reveal it. This is not re~uired in any jurisdiction I know of. So the hon. gentleman should set himself at rest.

It is not under consideration and there is not going to be anv change. MR .. ~~~~- : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. ~-· _ S_P_E~J\~: A supplementary. 2!R~ ~_AR!_: lv'ould the minister tell the House if in his opinion it is not good policy for the government not to refuse to do business ··•ith t heRe cm:-.panies t>ho do not reveal the real mrners, set the good example? ' IR. SPEAKER: The hon. Mi nister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSTli E: - - -·- --- - Mr.

Speaker, when this government is doing business Hith anyone and wants to find out who the owner of the company is, it ~1111 find out simply by asking who the owner is,or vou knoH t.tho you are dealing with. The company is knoHn as ABC Construction Company1 and the three incorporators are lawyers or their secretaries. They are not the ones t·Th '1 Hill he in dealing with the r,overnment or making a bid , it will be vJhoever is running and operating the companies. So there 5372

April 9, 1976 Tape No. 1994 NM- 2 MR~~R~SBIE: is no difficulty in finding out who owns a company that has recently been incorporated if you are doing business with them. MR. !_~Y:_ Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the minister's answer and I wish to debate the matter next Thursday during the late show. MR • . .?P~g_:_ The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Esnoir. }a. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for my very good friend, the Minister of Health, I wonder would he indicate whether the cardiovascular unit and kidney unit at the St.

John's General Hospital have been closed,and if so,can he indicate the reasons why this may have been done? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. ------ ·- MR._~O~L~~: I will certainly take that question under notice and get the answer for the hon. gentleman. ~~SIMMONS_:_ Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. !:!R~ SPEAKE~: The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir,a supplementary. MR. ~I~~~: For the minister's information, it is my information that this has been done though I would certainly like him to confirm it.

But my supplementary is would he indicate to the House at the same time ~-1hat the implications may be in terms of health care, I am thinking particularly of open -heart patients% It is mv understanding that as a result of the closure, if that is the case, that no hospital in Newfoundland may now be able to treat open-heart cases, may be able to operate because they have no post-operative facilities to look after them during the recovery period. I wonder would he take that question under advisement as well? HR. ~~E_A!(~~:- The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: I would like to ask the Minister of Health, Sir, what steps the government have taken to provide dialysis machines, that is kidney machines,in various strategic regions of Newfoundland where the government has hospitals1 Has the minister taken any steps to provide these badly needed machines in areas outside of St. John's? 5373

Aoril 9, 1976 Tape No. 1994 NM - 3 HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. --··- -- HR. ~OLL_IN.S_:_ Mr. Sreaker, the ''hole programme of renal dialysis ts being revieHed . most recently in light of the fact that there has been two, possibly three kidney transplant operations performed at the General Hospital. HR ._l!JI,1_RY: There was one the other night. }ffi.

COLLINS: Recause of this we have to have a close look at - ----- - - the ''hole programme .not only as it relates to the 8eneral but as it relates, as the hon. member indicates, to all of the Province and as time p.oes on I am going to be making a statement concerning that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. }ffi. ___ S]'_]':~~: Is it a supplementary? HR._~~R!_ : No, Sir. ~~ _?_]'_E_A]<_ER: Then I recognize the hon. member for Lewisporte. !:!R_:_ \~II.!:_ Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Tourism.

Would the minister tell the House the nature of the so-called renewed public awareness with respect to a provincial flag? Hhere does this renewed public awareness originate? MR. RICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am somewhat dumbfounded to say the least. I have no idea. If that phrase,or that statement {s attributed to me I certainly wish to disassociate myself from it.

What I said to a member of the news media when asked about the provincial flag was that there was renewed interest in the fact that the Province does not have a distinctive flag at the moment.and there was a great deal of interest and concern that there should he one in time for the Summer Games, and of course a great number of people feel there should be one anY'vay. Basically that is what I said. 'ffi_ lmiTE: A supplementary, 11r. Speaker. ~ - - S_P_E:~ A supplementary. MR. lffi!TE: Could the minister tell the Rouse 5374

April 9, 1976 Tape 1995 PK- 1 Mr. White: whether or not the p;overnment are still considering the design that was unveiled by a former Hinister of Tourism a couple of years ago, the 1~ hite one, with the Coat of Arms on the back of it. A N HON. ~ IF. ffif.R : They are still looking at it. They are still considering that one. MR. lVI-IITE: Or thinking about others. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Hinister of Tourism. HR. T. l ICKEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have not made a decision not to go Hith the flag.

Jlut I suppose it is fair to say that as long as pe c'!o not have a distinctive flag, and as long as that particulnr one has not been passed by the 1iouse,then certainly the question is open, I suppose one could consider the question is still open. P.ut certainly we are looking at that, and we will be making a decision shortly. MR. SNALLFOOD: HR • SPEAKER : 'ffi . SMALUJOOD : l'lr. Speaker, a supplementary. The hen. member for Twillingate. This 1~ild outbrust of public enthusiasm for a new separate flag 1 does this consist of three or four people phoning to open line?

Or t~hat other mad outburst of enthusiasm does the minister see? I watch around and I so not see anything. SOME HON. HE!1DERS: Oh, oh! 1'-'R. SPEAKER: The hen. Hinister of Tourism. HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have not noticed any wild demonstrations or anything of that nature. But very seriously, Mr. Speaker, I, you knot~, think, one can jostle and joke about this subject, but I happen to be a red-blooded Newfoundlander, and I do not really entertain too many jokes about a flag because I think the flag is an intricate part of any country or any province.

And I do not think indeed that the sports people that lead this Province and travel abroad, and travel to other provinces,are over-enthusiastic when they fly the Union Jack and find that when the Governor General comes along that that flag has to be lowered. I do not think they get 5375

April 9, 1976 Tape 1995 PK - 2 MR. IIICKEY: over enthusiastic about that at all. So while I have not noticed any violent demonstrations or demonstrations bordering on violence demanding a distinctive flag, I can assure my han. friend from Twillingate that the letters have continued for the last number of years, and that suggestions have continued to come in.

And when I said to the media that there has been renewed interest or increased interest I simply was indicating to the media that for the last couple of months there have been more reouests, more telephone calls, more letters asking what the situation is about the proposed flag. MR. SPEAKER: TI1e han. the Leader of the Opposition, '1R. ROBERTS: A further supplementary: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman from ~villingate (Mr.

Smallwood) has been less than overwhelmed by the wild public support that I have seen, so I wonder if the minister would lay upon the table of the House each and every one of the letters he has received, or any of his colleagues have received, say in the last twelve months, requesting a new flag for Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. 'ffi.. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to do that. I do not know if that is in order or not. But certainly I really - 'lR. ROBERTS : "!R • lli CKEY : ~. ROBERTS: "'R. SPEAKER : It is in order. - have no objections to doing so. Hear, hear!

Let us see them. The hon. the member for LaPoile and then the han. the member for Windsor-Buchans. 'ffi.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put - I can help the han. minister, I can give him a few letters I have by the way. SOME RON. MEMBERS: 'fR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! Order, please! I would like to put a question to the hon. the Hinister of Mines and Energy, Sir, Would the minister tell us now the situation concerninr, the build-up of inventory at the linerboard 5376

April o, 1Cl71i Tape 1995 PK - 3 1r. Ne.m.i_ mill in ~tenhenv:l,lle , if the i nventor y i s now moving, 1f weather conditions arP good and what are t he prospects for full employment at the Lincrboard ~till fo r the coming year, for the yea r ahead? NR. SPF.AKF.R: The ~on . llin ister of Nines and Energy . HR . CROSBIE: 'tr . Speaker, 1 have not ~o tt en any recent reports , and the mUl is opene d up again now becaus e the ice cleared away and permitted ships to come in and load linerboard .

As far as I can r ~emher t here is a shu t-down plan for something like the end of Apr i l or sometime in May, in order to do work on a ventilation system, othe~4ise matters seem to be going along all right . But I 1~111 have it checked Honday and ~et a more accurat e up to date report. lm. NF.ARY: And bring i t to the nouse on Monday. IR . SPF.AKr.R: The hon . ll1ember fo r l~indsor-Buchans. 5377

r. Apri:)_ 9, 1976 Tape 1996 PK - 1 HR. l'L IGI~T : Nr. Speaker, this question is to the Minister of Transporatation and Communications. As the minister well knows the detour on the Trans-Canada Highway is now closed,and the Trans-Canada is carrying traffic, the washed out section. Would the minister advise the House as to number (l)~when reconstruction on the Trans-Canada will start? Number (2), \~hether the \~ark ~Jill be done through a tender call or by his department? And number (3), will steps be taken to upgrade the detour prior to the closing of the Trans-Canada for reconstruction? MR. SPRAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, the

section of road that was damaged by the raisin g of the water level on the Exploits River, and by the ice conditions this past \nnter,will be repaired. Tenders will be called in the not too distant future. It will be announced accordingly. But it cannot all be done at one time. We are now making arrangements for the calling of tenders in various roRd projects. But I can give the hon. member my assurances that the road will be repaired or upgraded, raised, the Trans-Canada section, and the shoulders repaired.

And while that work is being carri ed out, if the Trans-Canada has to be closed during that period of t i me , that the detour will be kept in passable condition. J-1"R. F'L I GllT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. Slll'.J\KER: The han. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: ------ Then the minist er is not yet in a position to say whet her t he work will be done by his department or by tender? Is that right? HR. }1QRGAN : I just said tender calls. }IR. FLIGHT: Oh,for that road? '1R. MORGAN: --- -- - No,for the Trans-Canada. HR. NEARY: P. supplementary. "R.

SPl'J\KER: Does t~:e han. gentleman have a supplementary? MR. ~lEARY: A supple~entary. '·!R • SPEAKF.P.: All right. 5378

f>rril 9, 1<17f\ Tape 1996 PK - 2 ~r. SpcakPr, I would like to nsk the minister if he is still ortimistic in gt:lttinr. assistance from the Government of r.an<!da to a proposal put forward to the Government of Canada hy thE' Atlantic Provinces recently for upgrRding, twinning and repavi.nr: of the TrRns-Canada Highway1 And if the minister is not optimistic,does he intend nm~ to put the half-load limit on the Trans-Canada High~"ay, especially for tractor trailers, before it is reduced to the status of a coHpr>th? 'IT: • SPEAKER : - ____ ,. ___ _ The hon. Minister of Transportation and Coi11IIlunications. Mr.

Speaker, on 'larch 10 the ministers responsible for hi.ph~mys in the Jl.tJ <1ntic Region, the four provinces, met with the l'cd<?ral Hlnister of TrRnsport, the hon. Otto Lonp;.and we put fon~ard to hiM a submission based on the needs for the reconstruction for tlw npr:r;1ding, for the parrallcl ling of some sect lons of our Tr:ms-r.anac1<1, in other words, four lanes, and that ar·mmted to in lTNTfouncll and to $216 million over a ten year programme. ~'R. HORGf,N: At our meeting with Mr.

T,an~ - the total need r, by the '~:~y came to $0~1') mi.llion, I ""' sorry, the total for the ten year nro~ramme for the .~tlantic region - ann in N£"•Jfoundland the Tr:~ns- r,n,dn 1<igh!vay is our only pril'lnry r0ad. And v'llen I say rour only primary road' it is the 0nly roRrl accl'pterl and CJU;l]ifierl arld approved 1-y the Federal level of government as a primary road,

whereas in llova Scotia and ~!CI·J Drunswick there nrc ctl·e:- road other than the Trans-r.anada Fi.r,l1way ~·hich is listed and approved by the Federal <.overnwent as rril'lary roads as l·rell. Tlte Federal :rinister indicated to us that he Hill then - They do not r,et any help from Otta~"a. ''~. "!ORGf>N : ~lo, no, no . The federal 1·1inis ter at the time indicated to us that he ~Vould take our proposal to his colleagues in Cabinet as a major ded.si.on to make, t 11at type of expenditure 1 but we quite fortunately tolcl hil". at that time,' and Ne still stand by this, it is a unified ar,reement ><ith tl1e Atlantic region, that there will be no uniform 5379

.llpril 9, 1Q7fi Tape 1996 PK - 3 "r. ·'!0!"~ .systr.l" 0f :'ross P<'ip:hts on our Trans-Canada Ilighways~on our primary h i~hways in the Atlantic region, ,until we get funds from Ottawa to carry out this l".aj or reconstruction work. The situation is now that the weight system, the gross weights, for example, is different in Nova Scotia than they are in Newfoundland, different in Ne''' Brunswick than what they are in Nova Scotia and NeHfoundland.

In other words 1 all four provinces have different gross weights with regards to the axle weights and the gross weights, They are al l clifferent. f.nd ~·e quite clearly told the Federal ~Unister that there will be no uniform system adopted in the Atlantic region unless 1oe p;e.t a~sistance from C ttawa to carry out the upgrading of our Trans-Canada, and our primary road system.

Newfoundland's position,we also indicated and we still stand by it. is that unless we get assistance from Ottawa to carry out tl1is work on the Trans-Canada,there is a strong possibility that we are going to have to reduce our gross maximum weights we nmv have and reduce our gross axle weights. Now this could possibly mean,if we do this, it could possibly mean the removal of the CNR buses off our Tnms-Canada l1ightvay, HR. NEARY: l·ffi. HORGAN: Hear, hear! -and we told him this. SOHE TTON. 'MF.MBE'PS: Hear, hear! 'lR. :MORGAN: weir;hts, HR. NEARY: :m. l!ORGJ\N: ltR.

NEARY : i.Je have to take the measure of reducing our gross But it will soon be too late. - and gross axle weights. Now that was Harch 10. Yes. 5380

April 9, 1976 Tape No. 1997 NM- 1 MR. ~!ORGAN: I was quite surprised yesterday to hear from one of the local media that they had a reliable source in Ottawa who indicated to them, in fact it was station CJON, that the fed.eaal government had rejected totally our proposal. So upon hearing that news, through the local media, I contacted my counterparts in the other provinces and their officials and none of us has received any official correspondence or any kind of correspondence of any type from the federal minister or his officials since that date, ~!arch lOth.

However, we are now again asking the minister to give us as early as possible a decision on our proposal,and if the answer is negative- we certainly hope it will not be - but if it is negative in any way or form,we will be, I can assure this House of Assembly, we will be -and when I say we, the ministers in the Atlantic region­ will be back to Ottawa in the very near future and commencing our, 1 would use the term pressure, on Ottawa to get some funds for this kind of a programme. ~. SPF~KER: The hen. member for Lewisporte. ~.

WHITE: A supplementary to the Minister of Transportation and Communications in connection with the question asked by my colleague, the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) and it has got to do with the destruction of the Trans-canada Highway west of Grand Falls this winter. Now it is generally conceded in Newfoundland that it is the fault of Price 1 and I am getting concerned that Price Newfoundland is going to get off the hook on this one. Will the minister tell the House what he is doing in connection with having Price admit some of the responsibility for that destruction? r1R. SPEAKE~ The han.

Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN : Mr. Speaker, shortly after the flooding occurred the officials of my department held meetings with Price based on the fact that we were assuming,and we had no concrete evidence at the 5381

April 9, 1976 Tape No, 1997 NM- 2 ~m. MORGAN: time, we were assuming that the raising of the water level was due to the fact that the Price (Nfld.) Limited did raise their dam by six feet last year,and that was having an effect on the water level in the Exploits River.

The construction of the dam was done without any consultation with our department,but I understand it was done with consultation with one of my colleagues in his department, the Minister of the Environment, his officials were consulted.on the raising of the dam, But at that meeting the company refused to accept any liability at all for the damage to the Trans-Canada Highway.

So I have asked ·my engineering staff; in fact the officials of the department,to gather as much evidence as possible and some concrete, tangible evidence that this dam, the raising of this dam,did cause the damage to the Trans-Canada Highway, and once this is done and the evidence gathered we will again commence negotiations and talks with Price (Nfld.) Limited. ~R. SPEAKER: I recognize one further supplementary. ~. FLIGHT: To the Minister of Transportation and Communications again, I am wondering,~fr.

Minister,if after the reconstruction, the raising of the level of the highroad by six or eight feet, is there any consideration being given to taking action to offset any more flooding in that area? Because I have watched that flooding this past four months,and there is no reason to believe that that river will not flood again. There were times when the water was one foot over the pavement level.

Now with the raising of the road­ bed,will steps be taken to make sure that the river itself, that that type of flooding does not occur, that if indeed it is the Price dam that caused the flooding,will the Price dam be lowered? Wil1 some of the natural banks that were taken away from the river be replaced? Or will there by any steps taken to prevent that type of flooding? Or will the type of construction that is going to be used to raise the level of the road be the type that that flooding will not 5382

Aptil 9 , 197n Tape No. 1997 Nl-1 - 3 ~~ . FLIGHT: effect an~·ay? ~ . SPF.AJ<ER: The hon. Ministet of Tt:anspottation and Communications. ~·R . M>RGAN: Ht. Speaket, evety step wUl be taken in carrying out the teconsttuction work this summer to assure that this will not reocc ur again. There is another factor that ties into the possible cause.and that is the fact there is a pit known as Coodyeat' s Barrow Pit in the immediate atea . They have been t.aking fill away from that area for the last number of years and this has caused - th~ water is now flowing over that property as well, more easily than before.

So 1~e will probably have to use fill to fill in tha t area that has been excavated over the past number of years. But I give my assurances that every step will be taken, every measure taken to assure that this will not reoccur again after this yeat . 'IR . SPEAKER: The hon. membet for Fogo and then the hon. member f or Bellevue. 5383

Jlpril 9, 1976 Tape 1998 IB-1 ~!IPT. IHNSOR: "r . Speaker, a question to the han. Minister of Fisheries. In lir,ht of the minister's statement yesterday,can he ;>:ive any explanation why today there are t•h'O similar boats, so he indicated yesterday,wou]d be repossessed or refitted and chartered to fishermen? Those two boats are advertised for sale to satisfy a mortgage. Perhaps while the minister is on his feet he might have the anm.,er to a question I asked him the other day re two boats that Here advertised in the Daily News. lil' .• SPEAKEn: The hon. ~~inister of Fished.es. ''R. H. CARTEP: Hr.

Speaker, the appearance of the ads in the paper this morning calling for tenders on two longliner certainly is not related in any way to the announcement I made yesterday,or the one I !lk'ldc this morning. Nor, !lr. Speaker, are the announcements related to the fact that there are three impending by-elections, two of which concern fishing areas. Because the record will show, Mr. Speaker, that both policies were conceived last October and were held in abeyance pending the new fiscal year. So certainly there is no attempt on my part to use both of these announcements for political gains.

Witll respect to the later part of his question, ~~r. Speaker, the ads again to which he refers on the sale of boats, there was an ad appearing in the pnper calling for public tenders for the purchase of three or four boats. The reason being that these boats were offered for sale to fishermen,as is required,and ads appeared in the Newfoundland press I believe for t~·o weeks) I think it was, and we had no takers. There were not, obviously, any fishermen willing or able to purchase the boats.

Consequently we had to, as again is required, to advertise the boats and provide, and at least request, tenders from private individuals ,.,ho might 1>ant to purchase them. tfR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. _]!P.. CALLA.."!: Mr. Speaker, I have a question, I think, for the ~!inister of Forestry and Agriculture. It has to do with the former mink ranches iri the lllak.etmm, Hhitbourne area. Now in view of the fact that there are many residents in that area who have applications in for lease or grant of some of that land,and in view of the fact that 5384

April 9, 1976 Tape 1998 IB-2 1-lR. CALLAN: the Trinity-Placentia sta,Tiul'l commission put in a n appli.c:Jtion back in 1971 ancl we have not rrotten any satisfaction yet, I would }jke to ask the minister, Phat is the status oE this land where tl1e former mink ranches were . ar:d ho·p soon can we expect the problem to be solved? ~!R. :-PEAKEP: The hen. l1inister of Forestry and Agriculture. ~'P .. ROTJSSEAt:: If the hen. me!l'_ber had mentioned this before I crune up to the House I could have had it this morning for him.

Actually the decisicn was made on how to dispose of these, t~hat ones tmuld be disposecl of as a result of a tender called some time back. I forget what it is,but the decision has been made within the past couple of '"eeks by governl'lent,and on Monday I will be able to come in and if the hon. member would like it privately, I ar.l prepared to relea!)e the names in each instance because it Has rlone as a result of public tenderi .ng in all instances. The highest tender in all instances was accepted. I do not think there was disposal of all of them because in certain areas the bid t·ms not appropriate.

Somehody bid a price that <le did not think was appropriate . It only went for agricultural land, by the tvay, in most instances. It ~·as bid on f or that. So on l"onday I will get the details for the hon. member either privately-if he wants them,or in the House. Either way I tdll let you know '1-'here the disposal went on each of these. ' 111. SPEAKE !I: The hon. member for Lewis porte. YR. T,ffiiTE: Nr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. 1'inister of Transportation and Comrr.unications.

The minister remembers of course that Price (Nflrl) in Grand Falls has changed its method, or is changing its metho n of de liverin g wood to ~otwood. f.an the minister assure the 1lous e that the government is assured that there will be no destruction to the hir,hway going to 13otwood.and that incleed the highway may be changed and a new route out there specifically for the trucks that are going to be taking wood to the boats in Botwood? lrP • HORGAN : Assurances that there be no -? 5385

t\prH 9 , 1976 Tape 1998 p• . lvHITJ~: Tha t t he re be no distuption of the highway or that Pric e •iil,l put t heir Ot-.'11 road there or whatever . ' Roussea u' knows all about it • IS-3 . ,. . ~Pr i'J\l:l' : The hon . ! ~nister of Transportation and CoiDIIIUnication s . ?ir . ~·oflG/\.li ~ !'r. Spea ker, I take that question as notice . 'll' . tn!ITF.: ~f r . Speaker , I am happy that the rninister is go ins to take t he quest i on under notice because it iR a very bir. concern ir> that

part i cul a r are<\ and one that the people are looking. fo r some an!Jwers on . 5386

,\p r il 9, 197 6 Tape no. 1999 rage 1 - IDI-1 lfR. SPEAKEr.: The han. 1 ~enber for La.I'oile ann then the han. member for E ~gle River. Hr .. NEARY: Nr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Ninister of Industrial and Rural Development, Sir, who is ver y excited about the pos::;H,ility of getting a contract from Guinea to l:uild boats at Narysto~m. Could the minister tell us \vhethcr or not the minister's deilartment has been successful? Has the contract yet been awarded? What are the prospects? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Industria;L and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGL\N: Hr.

Speaker, I have not got an answer,I am sorry. I ~muld have liked to have had an answer today. I expected to have heard back on ~iTednesday of this week past. We have not got a definitive answer. When we approached the project in Guinea 1ve expected that we had about a t~venty-five per cent chance to get some lmrk. He put together a good bid,combined with the financial arrangements with the Export Development Corporation. also an offer from the Fisheries College, from the president, which we are ver:1 delighted about, to offer a training component to the bid as well, and we know that our chances have increased.

But I am still not optimistic enough to be able to say that we have a firm foot in the door. llut we will know sometime this coming ~1 eek. lfR. NEARY: Jx. Speaker, a supplementary. Will the minister consider follmdng up his proposal now with a telex or a telephone call to see if he can confirm the contract? l!R. LUND1UGAN: Yes, }!r. Speaker, I will take that advice and do that this afternoon. ~fR . SPEAKER : "'!R. STRACHAN: The han. member for Eagle River . !:r.

Spea ker, a question for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.I understand the serious concern over the severe over-cutting of the ~~ads area on the north side of the river in Goose llay operated by Labrador Linerboard. I understand ~387

April 9, 1976 Tape no. 1999 Page 2 - mw Hr. Strachan. that they are removing far more cords of wood than the sustainable yield \vill permit, and also there is little management of the resource and no reforestation programme. I wonder if the minister is a~,·are of this, and if so, ~1hat he intends to do about it? ~~. SPEAKER: The hon: Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. R0USSEAU: I will have to take that question as notice, >rr. Speaker. I ~~ill certainly check into it. YR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for ~~illingate. I should point out that this shall be the last question and last answer. 'M'1..

S'','\LLWOon: Mr. Speaker, ~;auld the Government House Leader tell me if he can,if I may hope before the session ends 1 to get answers to a hundred or a couple of hundred questions of --~ hich I gave notice some four to five months ago? May I still hope,after four or five months,that in the next month or two 1 May get some answers? lffi. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister without Portfolio. ------ IE. HELLS: '.'he hon. gentleman put, I think, as I recall it, 450 queRtions on the Order Paper. I believe that some 200 odd h<tve nrm been answered.

T~1ere is a lot of work, and a lot of research to answer these questions and people are working on them, ~nd they will be answered in due course. Mn.' CROSBIE: $120,000 it has cost so far to answer them, $120,000~ }ffi. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Government House Leader if he is not aware that a great many of these questions could be answered instantly with a simple yes or no, or a ~irnple number or a simple answer, a very large number of them. For instance, as an example, the Minister of Justice was asked has he authorized the bugging of any telephones?

And if he has, how many and over what period? Now I have been waiting for over four months for that one? MR. CROSBIE: All you have to do is pick up the telephone. 5388

ZO!!l: .i0::. "f!::'fUE!tS: Oh, oit! ·m. S' !f,t:.tv01D : It is not !urtny . 'm .. CROSoil:: I thluk i~ is ao:1using. ~m . '.ffiLLS: If r may, ~tr .. Speaker. I W3S wronr; when I said '•00 . TI1c total nu:nber oi questlons aske.c! wo.s 742. T:u~ nu:r.ber ans1.1'ercd co elate has ueen 317, wnic h ls 1'1 pc rccnt.:~gc of forty - t\:O -:>oint-so:uet:hin~ , and we are still working on the answers. omtr.s or T:m JI·.Y: :m. RO:n: : :~.

Speaker , I ~~ nclcr if, before the n6usc La3der c :~lls Commi.ttee of Supply, coult we call ~!otion t;o. 3 that a co~ttee ~ e appoi~tecl pursuant to Standin3 Order 84 ln order that you can announce t he ruuaes of the members of the committee? N!L \..'J:LLS: ;:-c. Spcakc-c, 1 undertook today 5389

\pril n,, 1976 . Tape 2ono RH - 1 ~·'ELLS: to call motion (3) to be under the Standing Order R4(a), :md accordinr.ly, Mr. Sre<~ker, I move the appointment of the hon. member for Green !lay (!(r. Ped:forrl) to be Chairman of the Committee, the hon. rnemher for Nount Pe;Jr] ("r. t!. 1•1indsor) to be a member, the hon. member for Pleasantville (Mr.Dinn) to be a member, the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde(Hr. F. Ro~1e) and the hon. member for Carhonear(~l.r. R. ~\oores). l!fl. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile . '!lL NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I presume this is a debatable motion. VR.

SPEAKER: This is a debatable motion, yes. }ffi. NEARY: Hell, Mr. Sl'eaker, once again I want to lash out at the r:ovcrnment House Lenrler, Sir, '~ho seems to be too busy to bother to consult lrrth all the groups on this particular side of the House, Sir, before makin~ these kind of pronouncements. I want to tell the House thilt the minister rlid not have the courtesy to approach me.

I believe the minister approachen the Leader of the official Opposition, the Leader of the Liberal Reform Party, but did not have the courtesy to approach me to let me know in advance,as he did with the other two ?, roups, I believe in fact, Sir, took recommendations from the other two gentlemen• rlid not have the courtesy to approach me to let me know, or to let me have any involvement in the appointment of this Committee that will select committees of the House. Sir, I want to point out to the hon. minister,who seems to be too busy to come around ann let me know about these things, that the hon .

T,eailer of the old-line Libera] Party and the Liberal F.eform Party do not speak for me in this hon. House. ~:I',. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! 'fR. :if.A'RY: This is not the first time this has happened, Sir. I asked Your Honour, I believe, a couple of "eeks ago if I could get a copy of the Order-in-Council on the increases for members and ministers. Your Honour tolrl me it did not come under him - and I agree - and recommended I approach 5390

,\pril '), 197fi . Tape 20r)fl RH - 2 :. ~!~. :·~EJ\l~Y: - --- - - t11r. r.ov£'rnment Jlour.e Le;lller.~vhich I diu. llp to thls moment T r.till do not h:we the in fonn;1tion. I approached the ~!inis ter of Finance. I am entitled <Hl a memher of the House, Sir, to have this infnrmation. The minister mw,r not thin!~ thRt I represent a group in this hon. Honse. lint, Sir, I t1Jink :it is a Tl';"ttter of courtesy that all three leaders on this side of the Honse - maybe the hon. mjnister does not want to recogni?:e me as a leader of a group. riayhe the hon. minister does not. S0HE JlON. ~fY:c!r.PT.S: Oh, oh ~ l'r.

Spea}c.er, J t'link if you are going to get these committees tn function propP.rly, if you are going to get these committees, Sir, to function properly,! believe it is encnmbent upon t'le minister to take the ti!1e, make t!1e time,if he does not have it no't-1, if he is too busy to loo l·_ after the running of tl-Je l!ouse, He should someho'" or other m<"~ke the time to consult witlt all the leaclers on this sine of t 1 11~ Jlouse.

J would hope in future that the minister will somehow or other he ahle to fjnd the t i.m0 to 1Htv(' prior consul tlltion J,efore he cowes into the llons<' ;mel annonnces the :-~ames nf n committP.c that is ~oinp,, or ;my other committee, that is goi.nr: to operate in this hon. House. '~. ST'EAKEI:.: If the hon. roemher spealcs now, he closes t!1e r1ehate. The c10n. '!inistcr uithout Portfolio. pn~:. Tl • PELT. S: 'fr. Speal,er, T am sorry that I have hurt the hon. member's feelinr;s, }fr. S-peal:er, by not consulting him.

I consu]tN 1 the T.enner of t'l<' Opposition, the Leacler of the nfficial Opposition ~.mo is the J.eader of a recognized r.roup or party in this House. I then consulted the Leader of the I.i~lcr::~l l ~ef orm Party,which is a recor.ni7:ed ~roup or party in this llouse. TJ,c hon. t"<ember from LaPoLle(Hr. Neary), he is not in my vLe~J- <tnJ I may be wrong anJ I wil] certainly take direction from the Jlouse on this not the leaner of a group but one independent member, the same as any other member in the Honse, hut not a leader of a p.;roup. Consequently, ~fr. :-;pe:~l :e r.

I di.n not consult him because he,havinr. no group that I know of, wonln not be able to recc1T!I11end a memher of t:'tat group to be a member of this committee. Nm,r if the House clirects me on matters of that sort to 5391

/\!'ril !', 1976 . Tape :>ooo Rll - 3 ' :1' . HELLS: con sult with the hon. tt.ember - . .,. 'IF.ARY: \·.'hen am I going to get - ~m . h'El.LS: lf the House - ·m. CROSB!li: Just relax. Just relax, boy. ·o:. SPCJ\KER: Or der ! ~ A . \!ELLS: If the House wishes me and directs me to consult with the hon . rr.ember on matters of this sort, of course I will be happy to do so . ' 'R. NEARY: When am I g oing to get t he memorandum? ''R . SrRAKER: Is the Rouse ready for the question? Those in favour ''aye", con tracy ''na y", motion carried. C:O:li'I!TTP.E O'F SUPPLY: On rnntion thAt the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply. 'tr . ;,pe al:e r left the \.hair . 5392

April 9, 1976 MR. CHAIRNAN: Mll.. CHAIRH/u : ~lR . STPACIL\N : Tape 2001 IB-1 Order, please! Read XVI, Rural Development: The hon. member for Eagle River. Nr. Chairman, I just want to conclude a few remarks that I set out last night and if possible maybe the minister would respond to them. I was not getting into the nitty-gritty of the department but what I was trying to look for was the overall philosophy, the overall policy of the department.

I believe that, as I said last night, the Deputy l!inister and his staff have done an excellent job but I still feel that the overall policy, the direction, the feeling must come obviously from the minister and from the administration on that side. I am a little concerned by the fact that the Department of Rural Development, as I said, has been bulked in with the Department of Industrial Development and this sounds contradictory. I am also a little concerned because a number of people who have been involved with Regional Development Associations feel a little dejected because of this grouping of the departments.

They feel that maybe now they are in the process of being either relegated, or maybe over possibly a period of a year being wiped out altogether. I am also interested in the policy of the administration in the long-term on regionalization. Because, as I understand it, the Regional Development Associations were created with the idea of giving them . a certain amount of economy, a certain amount of feeling of being able to do something within their own region. I have been particularly involved, as I said, in Labrador. In 1972 ~•e thought the thing through and tried to look ahead a number of years.

I chaired the first meeting in Northern Labrador of the combined councils, that is the conncils from Figolet, Postville, }!akkovik, Hopedale, Davis Inlet and Nain. met once a year. Every year since then these combined councils have They travel there on their own expenses. They give up a week of work, travel, get together. The meetings are held and translated into three languages, English, Naskaupi Indian and 5393

April 9, 1976 MR. STRACHAN: Tape 2001 IB-2 Inuktitut. And they are now feeling or now looking for. a direction in which to he.ad. I was ver.y much interested in the regional policy and whether Rural Development has developed anything along these lines. It was interesting that the. first year when we started the ·councils feit that their ,1ob was to almost nail everyone who came within reach of them. So the fi~:st one, two, or three years they called government people into the combined councils meeting and asked them questions aimost always in a negative sense.

But now they are growing up and maturing and the council is looking ahead now and wants to ge·t into more positive things. They want to take ·

part in more progra111111es. They want to develop policies for the region. There is a community of interest ·. So I am very much interested in where the department is heading that way and whether there has been a long-term regional policy developed in Rural Development. 5394

April 9, 197fi Tape 2002 PK - 1 Hr. Strachan: One other point that I was concerned about one time was sometimes the · only method of getting funding for community projects was to have a Development Association formed, that unless you had a Development Association formed you could not get funding. I can think of situation, for instance, in Labrador South.which is different because it is extremely unorganized, they are only now starting to pull together,where a number of projects that the minister's department has carried out, I will swear, could be implemented and carried out.

The only \vay we can usually do that is in the guise of a pilot project to try it out. But I think there are a number of things there which could be funded under this department,but they cannot be because under the terms they must form a Regional Development Association. And we are faced with an extremely region in which the method •of travel is by aircraft, and then it becomes extremely expensive and local people have a very great difficulty o~ganizing. It is very easy to drive to a hall some place and hold a meeting, but mn the Labrador Coast it is almost impossible.

It costs at least each person $100 to travel, so you can only have one or possibly two meetings per year. And I feel that this kind of punishes the people who want to get into the department, to apply for loans or projects or move because they do not have a Development Association formed. I also brought up the question,and I am deeply interested in it, and the emphasis on assistance, promotion and training, and I would like to see this emphasized more with groups,as I stated, and associations or regions in which no one else has gone into.

I think Hithin this Province one tends to start something up,such as the Fogo situation,and keep on with it, when in essence one should be prepared to drop it after four or five or six years and go on to other areas tvhich are then less sophisticated ,got less expertise, less ability, and,I think,this is the feeling that I have that the department should get into areas of this Province where very few other agencies are. 5395

-April 9, 1976 Tape 2002 PK - 2 ~1r. Strachan: We suffer in the North now, in Northern Labrador,from over organi2ation almost. Because once it opened up we now have all kinds of government agencies coming in, all different groups coming in, a great deal of organization at different levels, in fact it is very difficult now to know which committee and which association and which council one is dealing with. And I think there is a danger in many other areas of over organization. Then we look at other areas in which there is very, very little organization. Nothing being done. No one in there.

At one time the Extension Service used to get into area like that, but now it has kind of backed out of that, and I think that the leadership, in the rural development sense, is now,! believe, firmly placed in your department's hands, and it is out of the agencles .uch as Extension Service and other groups, in which I was involved. So I wonder if the minister could reply to some of these points.

I know this is more philosophy and policy than hard facts, but I also believe that it is very important because in the long term this is where rural Newfoundland and rural Labrador is going to head, and these people want some kind of direction, sense of direction, and that cannot come from the Deputy Minister and hts staff because he needs that direction from this administration and from the minister. Good and excellent as they are, they still require emphasis, and I wonder if the minister could put this same kind of energy in to that kind of thing as he obviously exhibited so far. MR . CHAIRMAN: The hon.

Minister of Industrial and Rural Development . MR . J. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Chairman, just to have a brief response, because I know of other hon. members who want to participate, I believe I am really fortunate as a minister to have in the House three representatives from Labrador who continuously advise and suggest and recommend, The hon. member who just spoke, along with my good colleague who is a constant adviser and a constant prodder and reminder to me of the uniqueness of some of the problems in Labrador, certainly have made very numerous and many constructive 5396

Apr il 9 , 1976 PK - 3 Xr. Lundrigan: suggestions. I have got to say to the hon . member,I do not knot~ how long he is ~oing to mo:~intain and ret ain the a ttit ude t hat he has exemolified io t he !louse sc far , I hope that the political system, the rarcy system nev er gets s o much control of him that he loses the a tt itude be has . which is one of n constructi ve nature . The atti tude t:hich he has shown tod ay t·lill , I will say is very, very fuod8ll'lcntally,effect some of the directionR we will tak e in rural developMent.

Last eveninr. o:~s he s pok e the De puty Minister,of cou rse , who is in the bu ilding o:~nd in the office next •door, made not es on thP. ,:pcech, ;md I can say to him that in our planning, and in our constant assessment in the ~ ep artre ent the a ttitua es the recommcndati ons , t he sugge stions he made 1~11 1 be taken i nto consideration .

As a matter of fact what I ~'ill indicate as well is t!Lat in our planning for ot her l ony.-term agreements ,which we are going to enter into hopefully at tl'e termination or befor e the termination of the pr esent agrce::ent, the Fe deral -P-rovincial azr eemeot which has tlolo years gone down the roa d , we have sta rted our planning already, 5397

April 9, 1976 Tape no. 2003 Page 1 - mw Mr . Lundrigan. we have had a lot of work done in looking down the road at a new long-term agreement with the federal government for rural development, that the attitudes that have been suggested and the general policy recommendations will be taken into consideration, that we will make the recommendations part of our planning process. There were seven or eight points the member mentioned. I will not go into details, because I will do this in summing· up. Other hon. members undoubtedly will want to expand on some of them.

I was very happy to hear the emphasis that the member placed on promotion and training. I believe myself that this is one area that is overlooked to a large extent by government because it is not a hard measurable kind of quantitative job for the department that usually gets government support, good government support when you are in periods of restraint. And it is a difficult thing to sell.

I do not mind admitting that I find it difficult lot of times to sell to my colleagues some of the emphases that we need placed on programmes which are not quantitative, and which, in my opinion, perhaps are much more valuable than some of the other programmes that we can measure. This kind of attitude reinforces my belief that we have to expand the role of the department and the division as it relates to that particular process.

The business of the Rural Development Association• being an impediment to an area because of the fact that certain projects have to be funded through the association, thev is a very vital question, and a very important one. First of all I would want to say that the reason that we encourage projects, community projects, funding through associations, is to reinforce the role and - the importance of the association, I can say that it is a difficult thing in a lot of our towns, in a lot of our communities, in a lot of our regions that we define as rural development regions,to get a lot of participation.

It is a difficult thing to do, I do not know exactly all the reasons for it. 5398

April 9, 1976 Tape no. 2003 Page 2 - mw Nr. Lundr igan . I do not know if we know in the department the reasons for it. One of the reasons is that I tend to believe that our people have backed away generally speaking from the decision making process, because of a strong tendenc y over the last number of years in centralization of decision making. That has been the tendency which has been national, international, perhaps, but certainly it has been dramatic in this Province- has it not? -you-know, 1chere communities one time,every little conununity had its o~m framework of decision making.

It had its o~ structures,every little community. And there has been the tendency to move away from that, a very dramatic one, and the 11inister of Education responding to the member for 1<indsor - Buchans (:::ir. Flight) sort of touched on this a few days ago. I have got very, very serious and strong reservations about that kind of a tendency. Having said that, I thin k I am really putting my finger on one of the reasons why people have tended to let George do it.

Now in our eagerness and our effort to try and reinforce the role of the Regional Development Association,we have tried to make it an expectation that community project funding go through the Rural Development Association. because to a large extent the ~1ole concept of setting up a corporation to assume the responsibility for the funding of a project is based on it going through the association. On the other hand we have deviated from the policy. I think my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is the person who brought it to a bit of a head with the c~aft guilds.­ MR.NEARY: The Gateway Guilds. MR.

LUNDRIGA.~: The Gateway Guilde - where we did deviate from the policy on this particular programme, and I will say without ~ragging openly about it,or exaggerating the fact,that we are willing to look at projects if they do not go through an association, that is, community project funding. 5399

April 9, 1976 Tape no. 2003 Page 3 - mw , lr . Lundr igan . On the other hand,everything else in the department pretty well does not have to necessarily go through an association at all. For example, the Rural Development Authority, which is part of one of the divisions and the loans made under that authority , have no direct relationship necessarily with the Regional Development Association.

But I will say this,that in areas where the Regional Development Associations have been active and effective there is a high correlation between that fact I just mentioned and the number of loans, and the number of applications and that that we receive. The Regional Development Association concept generally is working. The member mentioned the homoReneity- is that the right word?- or how do you define a region,, how do you define a region to set up an association? How do you take a number of communities and classify them as a r .egion? We are always constantly analyzing.

And this year, the last three or four months we have gone through a real process of looking at and saying to ourselves, is this really a proper definition of a region to have an association? Should there be a new type of setup? Should there be a new type of definition fo~ a regional development association? And I feel 5400

April 9. ]<l7t' Tape No. 2004 NM - 1 tW. LllNJ)t!.ICAN: that we have to always have this attitude. There are changes constantly. There are new industries starting which tend to provide a shift in emphasis,or to maybe shift a community of interest. There are all kinds of reasons why we cannot apply a hard and fast rule in)sayjdividing up the Province and saying this is a region, that will have an association,and that is the end of it. But we are, like the hon. member, assessing how we define a region and how the association will apply.

Regional policies Before the end of this present sitting I hope to be able to make a comment on this question in moTe detail,and T. hope that my two colleagues in particular, without any disregard for my colleague from Western Labrador, will be able to have some input on policies in the department as they relate spec1fically to Labrador. We have got a lot of things that can be announced maybe shortly as it relates to Labrador and development and I hope that both my colleagues in this respect in the House can have some input. The department is becoming more active rather than passive.

There is a little bit of a contradiction in the hon. member's comments here. Her agreed with the position that we have taken,that we cannot just sit back as a government, especially in a ~ruvince that has an economy that needs stimulation,and say, here is an association,or here is a group that is working for development purposes, let them take it and let them carry the ball. We have to always provide whatever support capability we have to make sure that they become active in their endeavour.

On the other hand,there is a zeal touchy question; how do you do that and at the same time allow the associations and the rural development council to retain the ~ what is the word1 The member used it, the word - the total independence from,and their interdependence as well and their sort of, not isolation, I cannot think ef the word this morning, I was up late last night,too. 5401

Tape No. 2004 NH- 2 ~!R .• LUNDRIGAN: The hon. member knows what I am talking about- that the association, in our effort to make sure that we give it every bit of support, we give it every bit of encouragement, that we take an active role, At the same time ~..-e have to be careful that we do not make the associations and the council creatures of government. tie have to be very careful about that and that is the very, very straight and narrow line that I have to continuously tread. The officials in the department remind me of that. I am a little bit impatient. I am a little bit impetuous about this.

I am a little bit hasty and they constantly remind me;'oo not worry about it . You know~the association,it takes time, they have got to grow, Do not try to move in and do it. If you do that you will destroy the whole process." But I think we are playing our role fairly effectively and not remaining too passive,and at the same time providing a good bit of sport capability in the various regions. The member mentioned something which is a good political point.

I have to say that if I were in his position I would be a little bit stronger about it because it will always score politically,and that is the business of the two hats of Industrial Development and Rural Development. That ts a good political point and that is the point that I will predict that several other members will mention when they get into the debate. How can you- you know,you talk about industrial development and rural development-without degrading or downgrading one or the other.

Now I believe that one of the reasons why that argument has some plausibility is because of the fact that we have had in the Province a particular definitien of industrial development. The definition we have had of industrial development is something growing out of the experiences we have had; heavy industry, linerboards, oil refineries, steel mills, rubber factories, leather factories, and you name it all over the Province, that is the attitude, large foreign, foreign to Newfoundland,operations. That is the definition 5402

April q, 19 7n Tape No. 2004 NM - 3 MR. LUNDRIGAN: of industr:l.al d.,elopment. My definition of industrial development I hope will find its way, if I have got enough courage and enough strength and determination, will find its way finnl.y into the department and int.o government in a way 1-Thich is compatible with rural development.

I believe that it is a very unique and unusual thing for any kind of enterprise to be develop•d in th:ts Province which depends on foreign product, imported and manufactlured and exported at the same time, that kind of a - what would you call it , I hat.e to use the word process again- that kind of .a pattern; that to me is the type of thing which has to be questioned very seriously forever into the future. To say that we have to look at resource development is cliche, Nobody needs to say that again. But I hope that it will grow Up and develop in the Province, if I can attain the dual role of Industrial 5403

April 9, 1976 Tape 2005 IB-1 I'P . LUNDRIGAJ.'Ii: development and rural Development, compatibility between the two, ·and I believe that has happened. I believe the kinds of things we have tried to do - we have ·placed a lot of emphasis on fisheries, for exarnple 1 in co-operation with my colleague in fisheries. There wi.ll be more emphasis on fisheries and more emphasis on the sawmill operations. Vle are producing today in the Province only forty per cent of the lumber requirements of the Province~in a Province that has an abundance of timber that would be the envy of a country almost like finland.

Here we are producing only forty per cent. 0n the one hand in Rural Development we have funded many, many small sa~nnills. A lot of them have not succeeded. A lot of them have not met up to our expectations. There are some areas lvhere we have done assessments in the last number of weeks - and I would like to mention it, I believe I mentioned in the House - within the department itself by young Newfoundlanders ~~rking for the department, no consultants, no large outlay of funds, excellent reports done by our own people.

One young fellow Martin who went rlo~m to the Bonavista Peninsula, went down to the Lewisporte area, the Botwood area and did studies in the last two or three months that would take consultant Hms six or seven months and would cost us $25,000 or $30,000. He did it as part of his job in a matter of weeks under extreme pressure. h'e have been able to assess in Rural Development the direction we should go in funding small sawmills. In Industrial nevelopment we have been able to look at the problem in a little different context, perhaps thinking of the larger unit of operation in the sawmill industry.

I believe there is growing up an interrelationship there that would be beneficial to the sawmills in the Province. I can use other examples of where there is compatibility between the tlvo departments. I have no creat desire to want to carry the !oad of two government departments. I wHl tell hon. members right now that if 5404

April 9, 1976 Tape 2005 IB-2 ;~ . J.ll:-lnl'.IGAN: I ~~~re to clo ~·hat .,ould be the normal thing,I would like to have a cozy little setup like other colleagues of mine with one little depa rtment to ruo and all that s ort of thinf!. Th.e Minister of Social Assistance down there - what is ~he r ight name of his department? AN liON. !-IF.}"BEI': Social Services . _!lR. LUNDRIG.'N: Social Services is looking at me and he is giving tne- "R. HOPPilY: chance . You would trade that fo r f i ve others if you had the n:. T.llNDrJr.AN: Thnt is rir.ht .

And the Hinister of ~:unic ipat Affairs and Housing if he were here, 1 think, I would possibly get a blas t from him; the lfinister of Hishways and other lllel'lbers who have really a large r plateful than they can carry and that coes for every minister . t-lhat I am re;!lly saying is that it is not a desire on my paTt to want to try to assume the responsibility for ~~ departments . Eut I do believe that by having - t't' . SI~:JlOllS: :·r. Chairma n - 1{1' . Cl!AI~A.'l: Does the hon. member yield? !1n. SH'l'ONS: No,there is no need for him to yield as I realize n01:. I lJOuld like to move that 'Kr.

Chairma n do now leave the Chair . The motion is nonc'ebatable and only the members in the House of course can - AN liON. I'E~'Bl?.R : r.eport progress. ;<P.. SINJ"ONS: ~obody can leave the House , }tr. Chairman, and nobody can col:le into the House. A.'i nos. !'EMBEP: They are not al101~ed to leave. J<J' . Sl:'~·!ONS : No, "r. Chaiman . SO''E UQN. !'E!'lli!P.S: Qb, oh ! '1: . Sl .. ':O:\S: "1r. C~aiman, under the rules the question is now callable . 1<~>. LtNOlllw'..-;: :-<r. C:hairman - 5405

April 9, l'l76 Tape 2005 1·11:. SU\IfONS: ~ • r. Chairman, in case the minister is wondering - HR. Lill~DRIGNJ: Are you asking for progress to be reported? JUt. SU!}'ONS: No, llr. Chairman. MR. L~DRIGAN: Are you askjng for progress? SOME HON. ME~'!IlERS: Oh, oh! HR. SUll'!ONS: ~ 1r. Chairman - !>...'< IIOll. }'E~'IlE~: Point out of order - t·!f.. GHAiru~AN: Order, please! ''r... :mARY: The minister may not carne in the House. trr.. CHAIPJ<W1: Order, please! I'lL :mARY: There were seven of them in this House. ¥:'. SU!!-•ONS: Yr. Chairman, may I speak to my - '!R. CHAinMAN: Order, please! Order, please!

IB-3 I would remind hon. m~mbers that the question has not yet been put from the Chair. I '1l • CHAIP.MA}l : Call in the members. MR. SI:MMONS: In the last week, Mr. Chairman, ~y I submit that a precedent was established where the Chairman then in the Chair ruled that no members may enter or leave the chamber and indeed, }~r. rhairman, invited two members to leave the chamber before the vote was taken on the same notion in the last few clays. ~IR. HURPHY: No precedent can violate a rule. ~'R. SIW!ONS: No,it follows the rule. ~- WELLS: Mr. ChR1nnan - };:tl. SU~!ON S: ~r.

Chairman, I am on a point of order and the Hinister without Portfolio is officially not in the chamber now, not supposed to be in the chamber,and I scarcely see how he can speak to a point of order. The Hinister of Fisheries came in , the Minister of Manpower, the Ninister of Transportation , the Minister of Tourism. Mr. Chairman, it was clear- I was listening attentively to my friend from Grand Falls 1 but only five of his colleagues were bothering to listen. If we are going to do the business of this Province, let us at least keep a quorum in the House. We did have a 5406

April 9, 1976, Tape 2006, Page 1 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: quorum, thanks to this side of the House, hut ~r. Chairman, I moved a motion that is non-debatable - MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SI"'MONS: MR. UTNDRIGAN: MR. SIMMONS: m:. CHAIRM.AN: MR. LUNDRIGAN: '!1R. F .B.Rmffi: privilege. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. UINJ)RIGAN: MR. CHAIRMAN: Point of order, ~r. Chairman! Mr. ChRirman, I am on a point of order. I am on another point. But you cannot introduce another point - Order, please! Order, please! It happened there the other day. No it did not. That was a question of Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Chairman, a question of priVilege.

Order, please! Order, please! I would point out that if a point of order is being discussed another point of order cannot be raised, but a point of privilege can be rai sed. Eon. members, of course, will be careful to observe the standing rules in what is a point of order and what is a point of privilege. ~. SI"'l'{ONS: A point of rrivilege, Mr . Ch~irman. MR. CHAIRMAN : A noint of privilege, I think, has been suggested by the hon. the minister. MR . LUNDRIGI\ Mr. Chairman, just in the way of perhaps a conciliatory point, if I might, that the bon. the member for Rurgeo-Bay D'Rspoir, has raised a point of order.

He is entitled to state his point of order. I certainly have no feeling of ohjection,neither do I have the right to, The hon. member as well has a noint. I think that bon. members should realize that the prime reason for the use of the time of the House today is to debate the estimates, and I hope that if there are points to be made they can be made with a great deal of civility, then let us get back to the important business of the House. 11R. S I~IONS: tfR. CHAIRMAN: Hr. Chairman, to that point of order. Order, please! Order, please!

The Chair would not understand that the point raised by the hon. minister is a true point of privile ge. 5407

April 9, 1976, Tape 2006, Page 2 -- apb MR., CHAIRMAN: The bon. the member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir, rising on a point of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I am speaking to the point of order I raised earlier,and I yielded because there was a point of privilege before the Committee, Mr. Chairman, my point of order related to the motion I moved a few moments ago, It is the same motion which my colleague the Leader of the Opposition moved some days ago here in Committee. And the precedent, it did not have to be established because the rules provide for it, Mr.

Chairman, under Standing Order No. 22, and the rules are clear. The motion is non-debatable, no member can leave or enter the Chamber, and I remind, Mr. Chairman, that the precedent was endorsed again three or four days ago when Mr. Chairman invited two ministers who had entered the Chamber to leave for the count. The procedure here for counting the Committee is not the same as for counting the House. We went through it a few days ago.

The appropriate thing to have been done, and I would now suggest it be done, is that the members wh~ were in the House at the time that I moved the motion, which was a non­ debatable motion and therefore should have been put immediately by Mr. Chairman, and for that reason, Mr. Chairman, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: 0~, oh: MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I am still speaking to the point of order. For that reason, Mr. Chairman, I submit that the only proper thing to do now within the rules 6f this House is for Mr.

Chairman to direct the Clerk to count those members who - no, first of all, 4irect those members who came into the House after I put the motion to leave, and secondly, to count those members who were in the House at the time I put the motion. Mr. Chairman, if there is any doubt who these were I am sure each member can be relied on to be honest about it, and for confirmation my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has taken the trouble to make a list. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~408

April 9, 1976, Tape 2006, Page 3 -- apb HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, to a ~oint of privilege, Sir. 11R . CITAI RNNT: Order, please: Order, please: Hay the Chair just make a comment first? Before goin g further with the discussion, I might say that I am nrepared to r,ive a ruling and in giving the ruling, of course, I ~~ould remind hon. members that that may be appealed to the House, in which case the Speaker wUl then take the Chair. I certainly ~~ill entertain any further comments but on the other hand, as I say, I am prepared to make a ruling on this. "'R • HI CKF.Y : ~lr. Chairman, I .iust want to make one comment.

T was accused of not being in the Chamber. I was in the Ch~mber. I was standing there bv the door. S()MF HON. "\fF.l.IBERS : Oh, oh! NR . CRAIR~ : Order, please! The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NFARY: Mr.

Chairman, my point of Privilege, Sir, is that under the rules of this House, Sir, when a motion is made that Your Honour leave the Chair, Your Honour ha~ no choice but to put the motion, and members who come in to the House, whether they are ministers or government House Leaders does not make any difference, Sir, they are not permitted to participate in any debate, any discussion, any activities of the House. MR. SI"fl10NS: Or any vote. MR. 1\'EARY: Or any vote. I would submit, Sir, that the Minister of Tourism violated the privileges of this hon.

House, and all the members, all the ministers who have come into the !louse, and I have a list of them here, Sir, who have come into the House are violating the rules of the House and should be asked to leave the House immediately by Your Honour. SOME RON. ~ERS: 1>1R. CHAIR~AN: MR. HICKEY: Oh, oh! Order, please! To that point of privilege, Mr. Chairman . 5409

April 9 , 19 76 Tape 2007 PK - 1 MR. HICKEY: To that point of privilege, Mr. Chairman. S0}1E HON . ~ffiMBERS : Oh, oh! l1R. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! May I make a comment? Order, please! t :do not underst and that the point raised by the han. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) was a point of privilege. It was clearly in the area of the point raised by the hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoi~ (Mr. Simmons); in otner words,he was speaking to the point of order.

So the point of order has not been superceded, and if I read it right I am prepared to make a ruling if han. members feel that they have no further £agent observations to make. MR. NEARY: We had a precedents, Sir, the other night. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Does Your Honour want a few minutes to go and consider the matter? MR. CHAIRMAN: I prefer to make the ruling. SOME HON • tffiMBERS : Oh, oh! MR . CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

If I may read Standing Order No. 22, "A motion to adjourn(except when made for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance), shall always be in order, but no second motion to the same effect shall be made until after some intermediate proceeding has been made. " Now the motion moved by the han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir is clearly in order.

Standing Order 44\a) "The Stand~ng Orders of the House shall be observed in the Committees of the Whmle House as far as may be applicable, except the Standing Order as to the seeouding of motions and limiting the number of times of speaking." There are other parts of that Standin~ Order but I do not think they apply at this time. So that I would understand from that that the Standing Orde~s that apply in Committee are similar and the same and identical with ones that apply to the whole House. If one then turns to Standing Order 82, and particularly to 82(

c) which states; "No member shall be entitled to vote in any division unless he was in his place when the question was put." 54 tO

April 9, 1976 Tape 2007 PK - 2 Hr . Chairman : That is a rule that applies to the House, and accordingly it applies to the Comnittee. So that members may not vote if they were not in their place when the question was put. t!l.~ MR. CHAIRMAN: Hear, hear! As of this time the question has not been put. SOME HON. HEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SU1!10NS: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. MURPHY: Now we are going to hear it, the greatest parliamentary authority in the world. Carry on! MR . SI MMONS: No, Mr.

Chairman, I am not the greatest parliamentarian, I am just one member who has some rights in this House, and I will not have them trod on by the member for St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy), Hr. Chairman. And I would like to have silence particularly from him while I make my point of order. MR. CHAI~~I : Order, please! MR . SIMI-IONS: I am sick and tired of the ramblings and babblings of that gentleman. I am sick and tired of it . }ffi.. CIIAIRNAN: Order, please! tffi.. SI~ON S: If he would say something intelligent for a change I would not mind. HR. HICKEY: ----- On a point of privilege, Hr. Chairman. }'R.

CHAIID1AN: Order, please! L point of privilege is raised. '1R. HICKEY: The point of privilege being, Hr. Chairman, that the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir is attempting to suggest to Your Honour that the question was not put. I submit that I do not ,Jish to get into debate as to where I was, I had my two feet in the door, and it is conunoaly known, Mr. Chairman, that when one has or.e foot in the door they are in, well I had my two in. So we will not go into that. Smm I!ClN. NENBE~S : Oh, oh! HR. IIICKEY: But the matter of privilege - SO!!E HON. MEMBI'.RS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Sh.-rne! Shame! 5411

April 9, 1976 Tape 2007 PK - 3 ~!R. HICKEY: Can I be heard? MR. Sn1MONS: Shame! Sh .... l"e! AN RON. MEMBER: Shame~ Shame~ HR. lUCKEY: We just found that out. MR. 'CHAIRMAN: Order, please~ MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, my point of privilege is this, privilege of the House, The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir is suggesting that Your Honour did not put the question. MR. SIMMONS: I have not. MR. HICKEY: He did before, Mr. Chairman.

I submit that Your Honour did not put the question because Your Honour did not get a chance to put the question, because there was debate going on from both sides, and Your Honour cannot hopefully put a question if two or t hree people are up on both sides, and that is why Your Honour did not get a chance to put the question. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. SIMMONS: Chairman ? MR. WELLS : MR. CRAIRMAN: Order, please! I would be prepared to - May I speak to my point of order, Mr. On a point of privilege, Mr. Chairman. Order, please! I would be prepared to rule on the points of privilege, but if the hon.

House Leader feels that he has a point of privilege, then proceed. MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, Your Honour has ruled. That is the end of the matter, there is no further debate permitted, that is the end of the matter, and the question in due course is put and we will vote on it. SOME RON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: And I think any debate on this,which seems to be following now under the guise of points of order, is entirely out of order . MR. SIMMONS: To the point of privilege, first of all, Mr. Chairman. To the point of privilege. 5412

April 9, 1976 Tape no. 2008 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons. I believe my intent has been badly misconstrued. I did not say even what my point of order was. I did not get a chance before the Minister of Tourism interrrupted to imply that I was about to pursue an issue already decided. It is first of all very wrong on the part of the Government House Leader. I was about to raise a new point of order,which the rules permit. I can raise a point of order at any particular time. And I was about to raise a new point of order, and would like to do so as soon as this matter of privilege has been disposed of. HR.

CHAIRMAN: Order, please: I would take it from the comments offered to the Chair that a point of privilege in the strict sense of the term does not exist, and I would recognize the hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir to continue his point of order. MR. SIHM:ONS: ~!r. Chairman, my point of order is that accepting the ruling of Mr. Chairman, I personally disagree with it, but I have a recourse for that, but I will not pursue it. But I respect the ruling.- I do not agt"ee with it - the ruling that the question had not heen put. I do not agree with that, but that is another issue.

But, Mr.Chairman, I submit that if Hr. Chairman's ruling is correct then my point of order is this, and I perhaps stould be speaking to a point of privilege, because the privileges of the House have been violated in that Nr. Chairman, when the motion hau been put by me, as a member of this Committee, :lr. Chairman did not immediately call the question. And I submit, '{r. Chairman, that iu that context the privileges of the llouse have been violated.

And I do not know if there is much we can do about it this tioe, but I would hope for the record that the next time we do not have several minutes transpiring during which men lvho are out in the corridor for whatever reason,not wanting 5413

.. April 9, 1976 Tape no. 2008 Page 2- mw Mr. Simmons. to hear their colleague from Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan),rush into the House, and had the question been put, Mr. Chairman, if indeed it had not been, had it been put when I moved my motion which it sho~ld have been under the rules of the House, without debate, without delay, then we would not be in this altercation right now, and we would have clearly demonstrated that the government members are not staying in the House to hear their own colleague. SOME HON. HEt•!BERS: Oh, oh! MR. CliAI~~: Order, please! If the hon. House Leader ' would permit me. MR.

WELLS: I would like for one moment to clear up one piece of - MR. CHAIRMA..~: }lay I just make a comment first? MR. WELLS: Oh, yes! MR. CHAIRMAN: I do not have the wording of the Standing Order directly in front of me now, but my understanding is that if the ruli~g of the Chairman is questioned, a motion may be made that an appeal be made to the House and that this motion is nondebatable. The motion should be put, no debate should be offered, and I take it from what the hen. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) said that his point of order was in that area.

And I would think that the proper proceeding, if he feels he should persist in his argument, would be that he should appeal the ruling made by the Chairman. If he should do so I understand that he should make that motion, but he should not enter into arguments or a debate over it. The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Point of order. No·, Mr. Chairman. I apologize if Mr. Chairman misconstrued my intent that way. I said

(1) I ~isagree with the ruling, and I have recourse if I want. I do not 5414

April 9, 1976 Tape no. 2008 Page 3 - mw Mr. Simmons. intend to · cakr that recourse. I respect the ruling which says­ the ruling as I understand it that we are - MR.. LllNDRIGAN: He:r;e we go again. MR. SI !'JXS : Hr. Chairman,! can have my own private opinion which I have stated. Mr. Chairman, may I continue? MR. CP.AIRI!AN: Order, please!

TI<e hon. member is in the same area of questioning the ruling of the Chairman, and I would ask him to either state his motion for appealing the ruling,or I must ask him to retain his seat and in doing so after he has taken the appropriate action, I would like to read another part of the Standing Orders of the House which, I think, may clear up an area of confusion. ~m.. SIMMONS: ~1r. Chairman, just to avoic' some unnecessary confusion there. My point of order - SOME HON. ~1EI!BERS: Oh, oh! 11R. SIMl>fONS: Hr.Chilirman, on a point of order. SOHE HON. 'U~·!BE R S: Oh, oh! ~. OL~ ~~~ : Order, please!

I would take it that the hon. member ~s out of order, and I would ask him to take his s eat. MR. SI: !O'S : MR. MORGAN: MR. SI , IMO:.IS: MR. ROBF.PTS: Can I speak to a point of order, ~4r. Chairman? }1o, you cannot. To another point of order? Hr. Chairman, may I say a l~ord to the point of order that is before the Chair now, Sir? 'ffi. CH/\IP.M.A.N : before the Chair.

HR.R')CETITS: I do not understand that a point of order is I understood ay fri end l:as raised a point of order, and the gentleman from Kilbride (Hr. lVells) is about to speak on it, which is fa i r enough,but I would like to say a word or two if it is in order. 5415

April 9 , 1976 Tape no. 2008 Page 4 - mw MR, CHAI~IAN: Order, please! I have taken the position that the hon. meu~ber for Bu:.;geo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) has not raised a point of order that was recognized by the Chair. Before going further I would ask bon, meu~bers t .o permit me to· read the second part of Standing Order 82 (

b) which states: ''When meu~bers within the precincts of the House have been summoned to attend in their places for the purpose of a division, Mr. Speaker or the Chairaan as the case 11a:1 be shall wsit three minutes before putting the question." In other words, when the moUon was called the Chai,rman 1lli1Y wait, as indeed the Standing Orders suggest· he should wsit three minutes before putting the question. And I would remind hon, members that the rules of the House apply precisely in Committee 5416

April 9, 1976 Tape 2009 IB-1 t:P • CHAintWl : as stated in our Standing Orders except on two points, those two points being that motions need not be seconded and that the times of speaking are different. ~~ y understanding is that in all other respects the Standing Rules apply in Committee. So I would take it therefore that the Chair was within its proper function to have waited a period of three minutes. And I would point out that during that time many points of orc1.er ~Jere raised so that it would have been impossible for me to even put the question in three minutes.

I believe the Clerk of the House timed it, the last time I heard from him, as twelve minutes. I would therefore take it that no point of order at this present time stands before the Chair so that the motion that the Commit tee r:l.se and report progress in now in order. }'R. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, may I rise a point of order. ~'R. CIIAilUlAN: Not in relation to the matter I just discussedjbut any other matter • ~ffi. ROBERTS: Yy point of order, Sir, is this, and Your Honour will have to tell me whether it is in relation to it or not since it does deal with essentially the same subject matter, Sir.

Your Honour has made a ruling and I do not wish to appeal it,and I do not intend to 9but my point is this, Sir. Your Honour has made a ruling which I believe has been - well, forget what I believe for the instant. The ruling, Sir, has been made, I would submit, without allowing members to give the Chair the benefit · of their advice. Your Honour would then make whatever ruling Your Honour wished, and that is in order. This is an important question. Before Your Honour came in the House we had a number of instances of unfortunate rulings from the Chair which eventually the Speaker took in hand.

There was one on a six month hoist on a third reading that the Speaker of the day, Mr. Speaker Stagg it was, made a ruling that 5417

April 9, 1976 Tape 2009 IB-2 t·IR. ROBERTS : was very wrong and it caused a lot of trouble until eventually Mr. Speaker Russell overturned it. Now what I merely ask of Your Honour or suggest is that Your Honour - the ruling stands now,and we are not going to appeal it,and that is that - and I would ask if Your Honour would allow at some point members to make submissions on it. I happen to feel, Sir, there is a case which I do not think Your Honour has considered which hinges around the words " in Standing Order 44 (

b) that insofar as applicable the Standing Orders of the House shall apply in Committee. I think there is one fact which means that the rule of division is not applicable in Committee and that is, Sir, that we do not divide in Committee. That is well- established in this House, Sir. It is impossible, Sir, under our rules to divide a Committee. You can have a vote,but it is not a division in the sense it is used.

So all I am asking, Sir, is whether Your Honour - now Your Honour has made a ruling and that is that,and it stands and no question - but whether Your Honour would allow at some point, Sir, members to make submissions, members on this side, members on Your Honour's left, to make submissions to Your Honour and then Your Honour may very well wish to consider the matter and consult with the clerks at the table and other authorities, well that is fine.

What concerns me, Sir, is a ruling has been made without submissions being made by hon. members on the point in question, a ruling which will stand, Sir, and a ruling ~mich I believe should be made only after all sides have made their comments and given the benefit of their advice and their opinions to Your Honour. That is my concern, Sir, and I am not sure if it is a point of order. But if not, it is a matter I beliwve affecting the privileges of the House.

And as I said,in a previous House before Your Honour became a member, Sir, we have had cases where - it was the Chairman of Committees but he was in the Chair of the Rouse as Hr. Speaker at the point -made a ruling before he had heard any argument, Sir, as to whether a motion that a six month hoist be applied - 5418

.\prU 9 , 197 6 Tape 2009 I H-3 ~"' l>OBE~ T !': to the third read in~; or a bill l;e de batable. Sir, he made a rulin& without hearing ~ny argument on the point at all . Forget why he ll'ade the rul i nr,b ut he t".ade that ruling and it "'as aga i nst all the precetlen ts of t his llouse, a~;<tinst all the precedents of Ottal:'ll and so forth . S.o all I arn ask inr is if Your Honour ~o:ould at some point aJlO~l submissions on this question. Mil . C!lAIIWJI.I'l: Orc'er , please! ~. HORGAN: That i s out of order . MR . ROBERTS: I~ abl e to bear. AN RON . J!EI"»FR: 'lkay , sit <'own. HP..

CliAliU lAN : OnlP.r, pJ case! I ~nuld l i ke to respond to the hon . Leader of the Opposition . I feel that the hon . t.eader of the Opposition has been most helpful in lti.s comments. I think that I have allowed h im considerably ~ore latitude tha n I s trictly speakiny. am permitted under the Standtng Orders o f the House . 1\nd I feel that it would be appropriate fo r me to resrond no,.· .

I ~o.·oulcl point out that a rulinr. has bee.n made and that I t hink that the rroper course- and I vould sincerely request the hon . members who have spoken tc- untle rtake this course of action - I t hink the prope r cou rse no\~ ~o;