Manitoba Hansard — 8 March 1977 (Sitting 14A, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-14a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Tuesday, March 8, 1977 TIME: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 50 senior citizens from Petersfield, Manitoba. This group is from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Selk irk, the Attorney General. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR.

CLERK: The Petition of: La Centra le des Caisses Populai res du Manitoba Ltee and La Centrale des Caisses Popul aires du Manitoba Credit Union Limited, Praying for the passing of

An Act providing for the Amalgamation of La Centrale des Caisses Populaire du Manitoba Ltee and La Centrale des Caisses Populaires du Manitoba Credit Union Limited. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by St anding and Special Committees. TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HONOURABLE LAURENT L DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Department of Health and Social Devel opment for the year 1976. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HONOURABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to Table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Water Servi ces Board for the year ending March 31st, 1976. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HONOURABLE RENE TOUPIN (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I'd li ke to Table the Report according to Sect ion 21 of the Public Printings Act, which is the Provincial Auditor's report of the operation of the office of the Queen's Printer for the year ended March 31st, 1976. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. HONOURABLE RUSSELL DO ERN (Eimwood): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like i to submit the Annual Report of the Department of Publ ic Works, 1975-76. MR. SPEAKER: Honourable First Minister. HONOURABLE EDWARD SCHREYER (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Order of the House 42, accepted mid-Ju ne, I have several copies of a Return to that Order. MR. SPEAKER: Any Ministerial Statements? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bil ls. i ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING LYON, Q.C. (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance.

In li ght of the annou ncement that the Federal budge t will be brought down on the 31st of March of this year, is the Minister now in a position to advise us when the Provincial Budget of Manitoba will be brought down? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HONOURABLE SAUL A. MILLER (Seven Oaks): No, Mr. Speaker, that date has not been establis hed. MR. LYON: Could we expect the Budget to be before or after the 31st of March? MR. MILLER: lt might be before, it might be after, but the probabil ity is after. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister in charge of Housing in Manitoba.

In light of the statement yesterday by the Minister of Agriculture whereby the Ministry is restoring the princi ple of private ownership to farmland in Manitoba, can we expect a statement from the Minister of Housing that that same principle will be extended to the tenants in Public Housing in Manitoba so that they will be enabled, given the opportunity to purchase and to own their own housing units which they presently rent from the Gov ernment of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Ind ustry and Commerce. HONOURABLE LEONARD S EVANS (Brandon East): Well, Mr.

Speaker, obviou sly the Leader of the Opposition is not aware of the arrangements between the Manitoba Government and CMHC, or between MHRC and CMHC. The fact is that we do receive a substantial amount of subsidy from Ottawa for our Public Housing units in the Province of Manitoba and as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, the cost is such that it would simply be impossible for sen ior citizens, for example, to begin to purchase or own their own units. 441

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I would point that the honourable member should have been here yesterday when I described many programs that are available for home ownership in Ma nit oba sponsored by MHRC. MR. LYON: I believe the Minister is fully aware I was not referring to elderly persons ho u sin Would he respond to the question with respect, Mr. Speaker, to the question of family housing whic� he presently rents -low rental housing -to citizens of Manitoba - family units. MR. EVANS: Well again, Mr.

Speaker, I wish the Honourable Leader was in the House yest erday afternoon when we debated the question of housing programs. The fact is that we do have a nu mber of programs to help people to obtain the ownership of their own property, residential property , but! would say the same thing goes for most people who are in family public housing; and that is, simply that their incomes are such that they can't possibly afford to purchase houses today at today 's pric� and this is a phenomenon, Mr.

Speaker, throughout North America whereby I'd say that less than23 percent of the people in North America can afford to buy a medium priced home today, anywhe re in North America. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary and a very simple question. Does the Hon our able Minister believe in private ownership of homes? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I believe that every Manitoban has the right and privilege to have dec ent shelter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. A MEMBER: As long as you're the landlord ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. -(Interjection)- Order please. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C.: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. lt relates to the - Federal Budget to be brought forward on March 1st. I wonder if he can indicate whether it's the intention of the provincial government to once again recommend to the Finance Minister, the Federal Finance Minister, that there be tax cuts in the Federal Budget. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the Federal Budget is anticipated on the 31st of March.

There have been discussions at Federal-Provincial Conferences of Ministers of Finance, and what has been recommended there by each of the provinces is on record in the transcripts which I believe are published. Certainly a

summary transcript is published at the conclusion of each conference. ln any - case every province has an opportunity to make its views known to the Government of Canada. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister, I wonder if he can indicate to the House whether the position of the provincial government has changed since its public press statements of November 26, 1976 and February 11, 1977, asking the Federal Government for tax cuts. : MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I would have to see the document in question.

Certainly I can confirm that the Province of Manitoba has made its views known with respect to the indexing of income taxation as has been done in the past two or three years; and secondly with respect to the fact that any tax cut at the Federal level, if it is to be directly as a result of certain changes in Federal Provincial fiscal arrangements, is a rather self-cancelling process. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, to the First Minister, I wonder if he can indicate whether the First Minister has recommended to the Minister of Finance that he apply the same logic that was asked of the Federal Government in asking for tax cuts for job formation. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the Province of Manitoba is certainly well on record with respectto favouring changes in taxation that have to do with tax credits or rebates and any mechanism for that matter which is more equitable than the simplistic method of simply changing the exemptions. ORDER FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table an Order For Return given to me by the Honourable Member for Wolseley on the 2nd of March, 1977, and I'd like to answer questions posed of me by the Honourable Member for River Heights dealing with the tabling of a report on The Loans Guarantee Board.

The honourable member was requesting information pertaining to auditor's comments on the report, and I would refer the honourable member to the said report of the Co-operative Loans and Loans Guarantee Board ending March 31st, 1976, in regards to detailed information pertaining to the $1 ,532,226 and the amount paid off by an order of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council being $1,370,668. The honourable member posed a question pertaining to South Indian Lake. That same report indicates that there was an amount of $783,576 paid out by an order-in-council and not $800,000, and I can inform the honourable member, Mr.

Speaker, on the second part of his question pertaining to the Co-op in question that this was under the involvement of the Department of Renewable ·Resources , FFMC, and in fact last year, Mr. Speaker, South Indian Lake Co-op employed thir ty fishermen for the winter of 1975-76, who produced 112,600 lbs. of fish and fifty fishermen for the 442

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 · summer of 1975 who produced 525,900 lbs. of fish for that given period. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. {Bud) SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable the Minister reporting for the Civi l Service and I'd lik e to ask him whether he can advise the House whether three members of the Manitoba Civil Service who were booked off on sick le ave were among those arrested this morning in the picket line at Griffin Stee l? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HONOURABLE BILLIE URUSKI {St. George): Mr.

Speaker, I'm not aware but I'll certainl y inquire into that. MR. SHEAN: Supp lem entary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if theMinisterw ould undertake to make a full report to the House on the activities on the picket line insofar as Manitoba Civil Servants are concerned? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the honourable member if he has the details as to which department those Civil Servants were from. I'd li ke him to provide that. · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. Order ple ase. MR. HARRY J. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I di rect my question to the Minister of Agriculture.

I di rected this question some time ago, in his absence, to the Acting Minister of Agriculture, and I wish to know whether or not the Minister of Agriculture will in any way protest the action taken by the federal Minister of Agriculture, the Honourable Mr. Whelan, in closing the border to the farmers of this province who have depended on receiving some specific pesticides and herbicides necessary for crop production in Manitoba? This action, I understand, was taken last Friday by the federal Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, we don't have the details of that action but I would remind the Honourable Member for Lakeside that the government of Canada has

an Act which dealers and distributors must adhere to and apparently the purchases which were made outside of Canada were in violation of leg isl ation with respect to label I i ng and other requirements for the safety and health of the people of Manitoba. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a suppleme ntary question to the Minister of Agriculture and I remind him that he has a responsi bil ity to the farmers ... : MR. SPEAKER: Question, please. Order please. MR.

ENNS: ... my question, I ask him whether he is prepared to use his good offices on behalf of the farmers of this province to see that they can get these necessary tools of ag riculture? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Lakeside knows full well that I'm always prepared to act on behalf of the farmers of Manitoba but, Mr. Speaker, I certainl y wouldn' t want to be an accomp lic e to any violation of the laws of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

In view of the impending date lin e for new lease arrangements atthe end of March, can the Min ister indic ate if the Cabinet has yet made a decision on the continuation of the rent control program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. TOUPIN: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, again, rents fall due all the time. it's not a question of having a termination date pertaining to controls. Controls have no termination date, as the honourable member knows.

Rent control itself will be terminated not by a set date within the Act itself, but by an Order of the Lieutenant-Governor -in-Cou ncil, and that policy has not been arrived at. MR. AXWORTHY: A supple mentary, Mr. Speaker, then. Can we take from the Minister's remarks the understand ing then that as far as the government is now concerned, the rent control program will conti nue beyond the October 14th deadline annou nced by the Premier? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member can assume what he lik es; he al ways does so, no matter what I or the Premier says.

I only ind icated that the continuation of rent control in this province or the ceasing of same will be determ ined by the Lieutenant-Governor -in-Cou ncil. MR. AXWORTHY: A supp lemen tary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister indic ate whether he intends to hold any discussions with any of the housing organizations or transcripts to discuss the kind of rent review arrangements that might be appl ied in the province in the future at this date? MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, that's a very pertinent question and I am very happy to report to members of the House that I have had several meetings in my dual capacity as Minister responsible for Co-operative Development and Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs with the industry, with land lords, with tenants, in regard mainl y to the housing stock and the type of stock that is there to answer the needs of those who don't seem to find proper housing. So to that extent, yes, by all means, I am having a lot of meetings and will continue to do so. 443

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 MR. AXWORTHY: A final supplem entary. Could the Minister ind icate that in those meetings that he holds with these organizations, does he raise the issue of what their recommenda tions would be in respect to the continuation of some form of rent control or rent stabil ization program? MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it's not a mono logue, it's a dialog ue with those involv ed in the housing industry, those making use of housing in the Province of Manitoba, and hopefull y the type of policy that will be impl eme nted in the future will be based on the dia logue now taking place. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Co-operative Development. I thank him for his answers. I wonder if he can indi cate at the present time the arrangement that is made with the fishermen who are utilizing the Southern Ind ian Lake Co-op facil ities. Are they leasing the facilit ies and paying the government rent? Is there any income being earned on those assets by the government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, in regards to the loan guarantee of $783,576, the assets still remain in South Ind ian Lake. The co-operative is active not through the Department of Co-operative Development, but through FSMC and the Department of Renewable Resou rces, so it's not a loss to the Crown itself. The funds still could be paid back. They've been guaranteed, as an Order-in Council was passed for South Indian Lake and the other co-operatives as mentioned in the report that I filed in the House yesterday. MR.

SPIVAK: Well, I wonder if the Minister can confirm that a feasibili ty study has been undertaken which would prove that there is a capacity on the part of the co-op to pay the loan back? In reality Will he not acknowledge the fact that the loan cannot be paid back out of the earnings of the fishermen? MR. TOUPIN: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, again it could be consider ed a chicken-and- egg thing.

Whether it be a co-operative, whether it be unde r private enterpise, whether it be under the Crown directly, fishermen in the north unfortunately because of the lack of pol icy of the federal govern ment pertaining to some cost sharing in regards to work activity in the north and espe cially in regard to fishermen we had to consider some type of subsidy. If I am to look at a formula, Mr. Speaker, I would favour the co-operative formula. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Co-operative Deve lopment.

I wonder if he can indic ate whether his department has informed the fishermen of the co-op that there is an obl igation on their part to pay the $800,000, or has the department ... Well, let him at least inform the House that's what I would lik e to know - has his department informed the fishermen of the Southern India n Lake Co-op that there is an obl igation on their part to pay back the $800,000.00? MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, I'm quite confident in the Board of Directors of the South Indi an Lake Co-operative, in the sense that they knew what they signed, they knew what they received from the Department of Co-operative Development, that it was a guarantee of a loan and not a grant being given to them at the time of the agreement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Attorney-General.

I would lik e to ask the Attorney-General under what sections of the Statutes of Manitoba will charges be laid with respect to the arrests that have been made at Griffin Foundry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HONOURABLE HOWARD PAWLEY(Selkirk}: Mr. Speaker, that is a matter, of course, that will be dealt with in the normal course now. The charges will be laid and people make their appearances subject to whatever charges are laid. I do not have before me at the present time the specific charges. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would lik e to ask leave to submit an annual report. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed.) TAB LING OF REPORTS (Cont'

d) MR. DOERN: lt is the Annual Report of the Land Value Appraisal Commission for the year 1975- 76. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Fi rst Minister. I wonder if he can indic ate to the House whether any arrangeme nts have been arrived at between the Fi rst Ministers and the Prime Minister, or the Minister of Finance, the Federal Minister of Finance, for the province to be informed in the event the govern ment, in its budget the end of March, was to deal with the whole ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is hypothetical. MR. SPIVAK: lt is not hypothetical . I am asking the First Minister whether he can inform the House 444

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 whether there is an undertaking by the Federal Government to inform the governments of the provinces, any advance warning of the announc ement of the post-control period and the termination of the AIB control period. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, a number of meetings have been held by various groups. The Federal Government, I don't expect will make a firm annou ncement within the next few weeks; I don't expect that will occur.

The Minister of Finance may, in his Budget Add ress, cover some of the points that have been raised by the Federal Government, but at this point in time there is no firm date as to an announc ement and no firm date establ ished as to the decontro l. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister responsi ble for Urban Affairs.

I wonder if he can inform us whether the province is presently engaged actively with the Federal Government and the Municipal Government to examine the feasibil ity of replacing or relocating the C.P.R. yards or if not, rebuildin g the Sherbrook-McGregor overpass bridge. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the City of Winnipeg council, by resolution, recommended that a study be undertaken . They forwarded that to the province and to the Federal Government.

I have made certain suggestions in the document which is bei ng forwarded and depe nding on what Federal Government input there is by the Secretary of State, Department of Urban Affairs, a paper may go forward to MOT and to CTC for a study of the relocation of the yards themselves, not the main li ne. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a supp lem entary.

Can the Minister ind icate if there has been any timetable or date set on the submission of this particular request to the Federal Government for financing and when the particular study may be undertaken, in li ght of the present difficulties at the Arlin gton Street bridge and McGregor bridge? MR. MILLER: No, Mr. speaker, I can't indi cate a date when the CTC may undertake hearings on this.

As I said earlier, the submission would have to be approved by the Secretary of State of the Department of Urban Affairs before that occurs, and to the Honourable Otto Lang who will also have an input into it; then if approved by them it is then before the CTC. As to how soon hearings will take place or what the flow from there on in, I am not quite sure but it would sim ply follow in a predetermined sched ule once approval is given that a study should be launched. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, in response to the Member for Riel who was asking the other day as to some description as to the purchases and sales of power, alt hough it is somewhat detailed I could attempt to summarize it for him quickly. If he wishes further detail, I would invite him to persue it on the 15th of March in Stan din g Committee.

Purchases from February to February incl usive: from Saskatchewan in the order of two and a quarter milli on ki lowatt hours, at a weig hted average of ten mill s; and from Ontario, 192 milli on kilo watt hours, at a weighted average of twenty mill s; from the Un ited States, 550 mil lion kilo watt hours, at a weighted average of 11.7 mil ls.

Now then sales, earlier in that eleven month period, February to February, are in the case of Saskatc hewan, 363 mil li on kil owatt hours, at a weig hted average of nine mill s; to Ontar io - and here it requires a footnote - 1.4 billi on kilo watt hours, at a weig hted average of four mill s; and Un ited States, sales of 560 516 mil li on kil owatt hours, at a weig hted average of 12.4 mill s. What is seemingl y out of proportion here is the mill s per kilo watt hour relative to the Ontario sales.

That is princi pally for two reasons, one having to do with the seven-year agreement, which by the way ends the end of March this year, at which time the four mill capacity charge will transform to eleven mill s; and the other reason is the arrangements pertaining to the Lake St. Joseph Reservo ir and the construction of a tie line on the Ontario side. I hope that is the information he was requesting. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition. MR. LYON: 1 thank the First Minister for the response. I bel ieve part of that was the question that I had asked earlier on.

Does he also have the figures with respect to coal purchases to fire the Brandon and the Sel kirk foss il fuel plants? Those figu res were requested as wel l. MR. SCHREYER: 1 have information on that' Mr. Speaker. The quantum of coal purchased is put here in kil owatt hour's equivalent rather than in tons but I co uld easily get that information and will transmit it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Rus sell. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ! have a question for the Attorney-General.

I would like to ask the Attorney-General if he can give us any further information on the ongoing saga that is being carried on by his department in its efforts to extradite Dr. Kasser and bring him to Manitoba for further court action in this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I think it would be premature for me, at this point during question 445

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 period, to provide an ongoing up-to-date progress report in connection with the extradition proceed ings. Needle ss to say, we are continuing in our efforts to obtain the return of Dr. Kasser and to properly insure that he is brought before courts for a fair hearing and trial. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Further suppl emen tary question then, Mr. Speaker, has the Attorney General and his legal counsel had any recent discussions and is the Attorney-General reasonably opti mistic in his chances of success at this point in time? MR. SPEAKER: The second

part is an opinion. The Honourable Attorney-Gener al on the first part. MR. PAWLEY: Yes, I have had discussion s with my legal counsel recently. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable the Minister of Labour. lt represents the first question I have asked him on this subject in several days now. I'd lik e to ask him whether he has received a request within the past 24 hours from the union or its negotia ting comm ittee at Griffin Steel for a meeting with the Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour.

HONOURABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY, (Transcona}: Mr. Speaker, I first of all would suggest to my honourable friend, the Member for Fort Garry, that he repeat in the House what he told me last Friday as to why he was not asking questions in respect of Griffin wheels so that all members of the House know the changed attitude of my honourable friend insofar as I am concerned in the conduct that I have proceeded in dealing with Griffin wheels. I am sure it would be a revelation to the members of the Assem bly to know the changed attitude of my honourable friend.

I want to say, in direct reply to my honourable friend, that prevalent at the present time, there are numerous half-truths regarding an endeavour by the union to converse with the Minister of Labour and in particular the attitude of the regional Vice President of CAIMAW; one named Pat McEvoy. I understand that it was al leged over the news media this morning, namely radio, that the Reg ional . Vice President, Pat McEvoy, attempted to reach me on two occasions yesterday and the intimation was this morning from that said individual, a connotation that I refused and was unavailable. Mr.

Speaker, I ind icate to you that this was a perversion of the truth or only a half-truth. Having been informed by an individual that -( Interjection)- You know, Mr. Speaker, the interjections of the redheaded leader of the Conservative Party and the Member for Lakeside is onl y indicative of the attitude of the Opposit ion. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. ! wonder if the Honourable Minister would foll ow the rules and stick to the question and be short and concise. MR. PAULLEY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, and I want to sugge st to you that as one of the authors of the Rules of the House I feel that I am within my competence to answer the way I am. There may be a difference of opin ion, Sir , between you and I when I am attempting to lay the truth and the whole truth before this Assembly in accordance with the Rule s of the House. And I would be gl ad to discuss that with you or anybody else at your pleasure. I do want to say, Mr. Speaker, that it was intimated to me today that there is an al legation that I refused to discuss with one namely Pat McEvoy a request pertaining to Griffin wheels.

I caused an investigation to be made internally in the Department of Labour and my staff to see how truthful the al legation made this morning was. Mr. McEvoy did phone my office on two occasions yesterday, Mr. Speaker, and on my investigation within the department, Mr. McEvoy said: "Here is a telephone number. If Russ Paul ley wants to get in touch with me get him to phone this number." Not a request for a conversation but a sugge stion that if I wanted to get in touch with him then ali i had to do was to phone this particular number. Not a request to have a conversation . And I sugge st, in all due respect, Mr.

Speaker, that this is only a half-truth. There was no request directly made that Mr. McEvoy was prepared to discuss the issue with me as I ind icated yesterday in this House that I was prepared to discuss the matter with the union or management at any time. But here sim ply is his telephone number, if he wants to call me ... MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase. I reali ze the honourable gentleman has a lot of experience but I do bel ieve he is stretching the answer. The Honourable Member for Assin iboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. Can the Minister ind icate to the House if he will have an investigation or cause an investigation into the fire at the Central Park Lodge personal care home in Brandon to see if all the fi re safety requirements were met? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. Mr. DESJARDINS: I thought he'd never ask, Mr. Speaker. I wish to say that Mr .... manager of the rural health facil ities

section will be in Brandon. He is in Brandon today to fire department is there and the patients are well taken care of. They have been transferred. Thirty-two of them to the Brandon General Hospital, 35 to the Brandon Mental Health Centre, 19 were discharged to the care of relatives and the staff also accompanied these people at the General Hospital. The repairs will be 446

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 done as soon as possible and, as I say, an investigation is being made at the present. MR. PATRICK: Suppl eme ntary, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can indic ate to the House how often are the personal care homes investigated for fire safety? Is it once a year or twice a year? MR. DESJARDINS: I'd li ke to give my honourable friend the floor. Maybe I could invite the person responsible for the Fire Commissioner to answer that. -(I nterjection)- Can I ask permission, Mr. Speaker, to pass on that? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, for your acknowled gement. I want to say to my honourable friend that insofar as inspection of publi c build ings are concerned and in particular senior citizens' homes and hospitals it is an ongoing process within the Fire Prevention Department of the Department of Labour and the Fire Commissioner's Office. I am sure that insofar as this particular unfortunate incident is concerned that an inspection would have been made within the last month or two as to the efficiency of the fire alarm system and other systems within the sen ior citizens' home in Brandon . MR. PATRICK: A supp lement ary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister indic ate to the House if the Fire Commissioner will be holding an inquest into the causes of the deaths? MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, when there is a death as a result of fire there is an investigation carried on by the Fire Commissioner 's office in conju nction with the Department of the Attorney General and the - it used to be the Coroner's, I belie ve there's a change in name now of the investigators - but wherever occurs a death as a result of fire there is a joint involvement between the office of the Fire Commissioner and the Attorney-General's Department to try and ascertain the causes and other aspects pertainin g to the incident of fire. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Point Douglas.

REVEREND DONALD MALINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is di rected to the First Minister. In the li ght of the recent proposal by the ICE C Council lors that Winnip eg Hydro sell its absolute power plans to Manitoba Hydro, would the First Minister ind icate if he has any intentions of stealing Winn ipeg Hydro as he was accused of wanting to do several years ago? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, just to reply very briefly, the matter is one which is certainly important enough to want to discuss with the City of Winnipeg representatives, if they wish to pursue it.

There is, on our part however, no particula r desire to proceed with the purchase of Winnip eg Hydro for reasons which I co uld go into, but which have primarily to do with the fact that the City of Winnipeg Hydro with its two hydraulic pla nts on the Winnipeg River are now meeting approximately in the order of 28 to 30 percent of City Hydro's own requirements. There is need for some upgrading of a substantial nature. Details of a technical nature are, of course, worth discussing, but there is no policy desire to pursue that avenue particularly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Attorney-General. In the li ght of his response to the Minister- Member from BirtleRus sel l - perhaps soon to be a Minister, who knows - could he tell us because of the ambivalence of that answer, can he confirm that charges are being laid today pursuant to the provisions of the Cr imi nal Code of Canada for obstruction against people being arrested on the li ne at Griffin Stee l? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't know what the honourable member is referring to as ambivalence, but I'm not, Mr. Speaker, about to read out

section and verse of the particula r charges. ! think there was a clear ind ication given yesterday that charges would be laid today. it's my understanding that has been done, and from this point on I think that annou ncements in this respect should be in the normal way through the court process and through the appearance on the court docket. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, could the Honourable the Attorney-General then inform the House as to what charges were laid? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have not received specific information as to exactly what charges have been made. MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm rather amazed that the honourable member wishes dail y announcements of specific and particular charges that have been laid in regard to this matter. I think it's only proper and fair, and I think he as a former lawyer realizes it very well that announc ements of this can be best handled from this point on through the normal process through the court. Charges have been laid. I ind icated yesterday that in ali i ikeli hood they would be charges of obstruction under the Criminal Code. MR. LYON: A supplem entary, Mr. Speaker, and it's a very simple question.

Can the Minister not confirm statements that are being made on the air by the Chief of Police who knows what the charges are? The charges of obstruction under the Criminal Code were laid today. 447

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member has heard the statements from the Chief of Police, I'm amazed that the honourable member, the Leader of the Opposition apparently doesn't belie ve the Chief of Police of the City of Winn ipeg. MR. LYON: Can the Honourable the Attorney-General confirm ordeny that he or representatives of his office gave the instructions for those charges to be laid? Can he confi rm that he knows what's going on in his own department? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable member had been li stening yesterday and paying attention he would have heard what was said in this Chamber yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Rob lin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a release in my hand of the Department of Agriculture that a quarter-section is ... MR. SPEAKER: Question, please. MR. McKENZIE: The question, Mr. Speaker, is can the Minister give me some idea or timetable of what he means by "soon" - 64 hectares is a quarter - it says "soon". MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know what the question is. Would the member repeat it? MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I was asking the Minister of Agriculturewhen this quarter-section is 64 hectares soon, what is his timetable for this new description of a measurement of land? MR. USKIW: Wel l, obviously, Mr. Speaker, the member must be aware that there is a metric conversion under way, and that of course is coast to coast in Canada, probably in the United States soon to follow, and that 64 hectares is equal to 160 acres. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, may I then ask the Minister of Agriculture, will the land desc riptions be all changed in the Land Titles Office? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I suggest the member ask the proper Minister because that does not fal l under the Department of Agriculture. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, can I ask the Minister then if the government has dealt with this matter? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think the Member for Roblin should be aware that the government deals with all matters of public importance. ORDERS OF THE DAY ADJOURNED DEBATES- SECOND READINGS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder on Orders of the Day you might proceed with the Adjourne d Debates on Second Read ing. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. BILL No. 12 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. The Honourable Member for Gladsto ne. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: St and, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: BILL No. 4 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Public Works. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN: St and, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: BILL No. 5 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Public Works. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: St and, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, agai n I want to draw to the attention of honourable members of the House that there are simul taneous meetings of Committees of Supp ly. The continuation of the consi deration of the Department of Education in the Assembly and the Department of Agriculture outside. So, therefore, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education 'that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of Suppl y to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I would lik e to draw attention to the House to a required correction in the format of the fi rst appropriation of the main estimates which were tabled last week. lt has to do with the Department of Conti nuing Education and Manpower. There was an error and I will ask the Clerk of the House to distribute the sheet, it's been prepared and members will see it. There's no change in total figures at all but what it does is correct an error in setting out the Minister's compensation .

The amount incl uded is part of the overall administrative costs and it should have been broken out and it is broken out in the corrected sheet, so it does not affect the totals, it is sim ply a matter of correcting the detail. 448

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: That is information. QUESTION put MOTION carried and the House resolv ed itself into a Comm ittee of Suppl y with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SCHREYER: I wonder if I co uld have leave of the honourable gentlemen to attempt to save some time here in terms of preparation for Thursday and Friday of this week.

Given the fact that the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture I think is requested to attend at a Senate comm ittee hearing, I don't think hono urable gentlemen would want to deprive him of an opportunity to appear before that august body. If honourable gentlemen would be ag reeable to the substitution for Thursday and Friday this week of the Estimates of Ind ustry and Commerce in place of Agriculture for that two-day period over in the other committee room .... I just leave it as a question and will consult later this afternoon . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H.

JORGENSON: I would point out to the First Minister that the prerogative for determining the order in which committees and which committees will be heard in the other room is the prerogative of the oppositi on . I wouldn' t want to suggest at this point that we'd be prepared to deal with the Estimates of the Department of Industry and Commerce at this time. I will endeavo ur to discuss it with my colleagues and let him know which department we are prepared to examine in place of Agriculture. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that's fine.

That's my understanding as well and I merely put the matter forward as a sugge stion for considera tion. If on the other hand, the counter request is that it be some other department of which the Minister may not be quite ready for then we have a log istics problem. That's all I am saying . to my honourable friend. We'd have to try and resolve it. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES- EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: I refer honourable membe rs to page 21 in the Estimates Book, Reso lution 51 (e) , Child Development and Sup port Services, Salaries (1). The Honourable Meer for Fort Rouge. The honourable member has 24 minutes. MR.

AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I just want to maintain the same line of thoug ht. If the Minister would be prepared to deal with the questions that were raised in the last evening when we left and then we can perhaps conclud e some discussion on that particular question on 811158, but if he would be prepared to respond to that . . . . MR. CHAIAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I am quite prepared to respond to some of the questions raised by the Member for Fort Rouge but there . is one point, one figure or statistic that he gave that staff have tried to track down and cannot find. lt was the figure for per-pupil cost that the Meerf or Fort said originated in New York, I think City of New York. I wasn't clear, obviously, whether it was the state the city.

I wasn't clear from what he said whether it was $2,500 for every pupil across that school division in New York or whether it was for every pupil with special needs or whether it was the incremental costs of new programs for children with special needs. Because we've had this difficulty in tracking it down and indeed can find no record of it, we are now lo oking at the ERIC files to try to get some information on it, I was wonderi ng if you could if you could elabor ate on it, define more clearly what this figure represented . MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, I would have to beg the indulgence of the Minister to go to my own files. I could report to him that the figures appeared in the New York Times Su nday Suppl ement of about last March or April. There was a special

section on special needs programs. If memory serves me correctly, the $2 ,500 figure appl ied across the board in terms of a total resource all ocation for per-people incr eases, but I would have to check that to make sure. l would be able to do it ... if he wanted to talk for awhil e, I could probably go to my own caucus room and see if I could find my file , but if he wanted to check it, it would be in the New York Times Sunday Su pplement of last spring. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 51 (e)(1). MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, it appears the Minister is not at this stage ready to answer the questions I did pose last ev ening which I think carry with it some serious implications about the implem entation of the program under Bill 58, and that is the relationsh ip between his planning and whatever planning may or may not be going on with the Department of Health and Social Development and the Department of Corrections.

I think, as I pointed out last night, the correlation, the connection between the childr en who may be taken into the mainstream of schools under the Bill 58 Special Needs Program would overlap in many respects children who are presently under the care of the Chil d Welfare Office or the Juvenile Treatment Centres and other agencies of the provincial 449

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 government which are already bearing a certain fina ncial cost to it. I think aside from the fina nces, Mr. Chairman, there is perhaps even a more serious question, that is the way in which there is a very direct or close connection between lea rning disabili ties and the, kinds of problems that many childr en run into.

I recall reading, probably in the same newspaper that the other statistic came from, that the study done in Rhode Island on childr en with learning disabil ities found out that some 70 percent of childr en in that state who were apprehended for juven il e delinq uency problems also had learn ing disabil ities. The conclusion of that study was that there was an obvious connection between the two particular problems and that therefore one of the major solutions or responses should be ... we'd have to be careful if you're just transferring the problem from one system to another.

I'd lik e if the Minister would be able to respond to that. MR. TURNBULL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I had thought that indeed I had answered all the questions that the Member for Fort Rouge had asked me last night.

When it comes to co-ordination, whic h 1 really think is what he is speaking about, co-ordi nation between the provincial Department of Health and the Department of Education with regard to the del ivery of services and programs for childr en with special needs, I can tell him that I have had discussions with my colleague, the Minister of Health, and as a result of that there have been discussions between senior staff of my department and senior staff of his department. As a result of that, there have been lower-level discussions among staff.

Particular people have been designa ted from each department to carry forward some review of how the del ivery of programs in these two departments can be co-ordinated. that there is need for rationaliz ation . I be lie ve that there are efficiencies to be obtained, but at the moment of course, before we have the data, we have only belief to go on and reports to go on that aren't systematic in any way.

But I can assure him that this probl em, and I think it's al ways a problem, the large bureaucratic organization, this problem of sensibl e, rational del ivery of service is being examined and we hope to achieve in the near future some plan for bringing about a better del ivery of service. That does not necessa rily mean that children who are now receiving program deliv ery from one department will then receive it from the other department, or vice versa, but I think there is every need for rationaliz ation of the del ivery of service, and that is being studied . MR.

AXWORTHV: I would then lik e to ask the Minister that in the preparation or the introduction of the mainstreaming program under Bill 58, that if in addition to the present $2,000 grant that is presently assigned to the local advisory committees, if his department is prepared to provide assistance for those school divisions which are will ing and now able to undertake initial steps to implementing the program, such as the beginning of screen ing arrangements or screening systems for preschool ch il dren to determine what disabil ities or special handicaps or requirements they may have.

I am thinking in particular of Winnip eg School Division 1, where they have begun to initi ate a number of testing programs for kinder garten childr en and where they are able to very quickly pick out some of the major problems and provide some prevention for those, and it is my understanding the Department of Education is not presently prepared to help in the funding of those programs. yet it would seem to me fairly obvious, Mr.

Chairman, if there are school divisions which are prepared to move forward in getting some of these very critical initial steps underway, that the Department of Education shoul d be prepared to provide some funding for it, so it it not borne totally through the special levies of those school divisions. I think particularly in an urban school division lik e School Division 1 where there is a large number of children and where it will take a fair deg ree of intensive testing and assessment and screening beforehand, that if they're prepared to go ahead there should be some support now.

I am wondering if the Minister would be prepared to offer that kind of support for those school divisions which are wanting to go ahead and begin in those very critical early steps. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the Department of Education does have availa ble mon ies specifically for the imple mentation of Bill 58. The kinds of programs that the Member for Fort Rouge is talk ing about I assume are new programs. The money for implementation of new programs is being made avail able now. There were planning grants made available, I guess in the range $1 ,500 to $2,000 , generally, for a variety divisions.

These divisions got the money and they have conducted surveys of the needs in their particular areas. In addition to that, either last Wednesday or the week before that, at the Cabinet meeting of that Wednesday, $198,500 was provided to various divisions for initiation grants. So that in total, you see, these divisions would be receiving in the neig hbourhood of, approaching, $10,000 solely for the purpose of conducting surveys of needs within thei r areas and beginn ing particular programs of the kind that the Member for Fort Rouge was talk ing about. I emphasize though that these would be new programs.

There are, as I mentioned last evening, existing programs now in place in some schools. I assume the Member for Brandon West knows of simil ar programs for children with special needs set up in his urban area. There are programs in Winn ipeg in place now. But the Meer for Fort Rouge is tal king about new programs and I have given him the information about those new programs. I think that 450

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 answers his question . Does it or not? MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, it answers that specific question.

I wonder then if the Cabinet has so designa ted this $198,000 for the initiation of programs, I am wondering if the Minister can indic ate whether there are any plans afoot to provide for the special trainin g of teachers in this area so that there would be a proper and adequate number of teachers who are regular classroom teachers that can be brought in for special training and for remed ial training so that they would be prepared to respond to the changed classroom conditions when there is a higher frequency of mainstreaming taking place.

But certainl y one of the concerns that have been expressed to me by many teachers is that they will be all of a sudden facing a classroom situation where there may be children with emotional or some physical disabili ties and that they will not have had any special training to go along with those.

In connection with that, I am also wonde ring if the Cabinet or the government has yet decided on what they are prepared to do to help the school divisions adapt the ir physical facilities to bring them up for those who may be in wheelchairs, may have· other kinds of physical requirements or reconstruction inabi lities, if there is some indication at this stage what sort of assistance would be forthcoming in the area of physical alte ration or rearrangement in schools. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Fort Rouge is talking about training of teachers.

The training of teachers can occur obviously in perhaps three settings. lt can occur in the Faculty of Education. lt can occur as the teacher is inducted into teaching in the cla ssroom , and it can occur, for a tenure teacher, on the job. If we back up on that sequence I have just given; for the training of teachers of the job we are providing two school divisions in the neighbour hood of $93,000to $97,000. For the training of teachers as they move into teaching in the field, there are various programs that we will be discussing later in my Estimates which are for the induction of new teachers.

I assume that common sense should dictate that those programs which will locate teachers often in rural areas will include a component related to teaching childr en with special needs. Fina ll y, to come to the fi rst point that I mentioned , come to the training of teachers in the Faculty of Education, I can say to the Member that I belie ve the Faculty of Education now has programs available for teachers whowi sh to become knowledgeable in the techniques of teaching childr en with special needs.

I have, as I mentioned earl ier but the Member for Fort Rouge was absent at the time, I have asked the Dean of the Faculty of Education to participate in the Ministers' Advisory Committee in the implementation of Bill 58. My reason for doing so, of course, is to bring the Dean and the Faculty of Education into closer communication with those people who are particularly concerned with the implementation of Bill 58, to enable him to get firsthand knowledge and, of course, to establis h what I always regard as absolutely vital in implementing a new program - good , firsthand, face-to-face com munication .

And I think as a result of that we can expect that the Faculty of Education will attempt to bring in programs which will train teachers while they are in their professional develo pment program;;; at the Faculty of Education. So in general then, those are the th ree areas in which , I think, teachers are receiving training. Monies are made available and I think the programs are under way.

I might conclude by saying that although Bill 58 may be seen as a radical new departure - the Member for Fort Rouge I don't think does see it that way but some do - that teachers for decades, since the introduction of compu lsory education in Manitoba, have been deal ing with childr en with particular problems. The regular classroom teacher has always had to, in one way or another, cope, teach, train, children who have special problems. And I think that we should not forget that.

Any change in regard to Bill 58 and the training of childr en with special problems ultimately will come to rest with the regular cla ssroom teacher. And it is one of the reasons, of course, why I urge my coll eag ues in Cabinet to reduce the teacher-pupil ratio at the eleme ntary level, because I think it's important for the department to recognize that that ratio should be smaller because a smalle r ratio would make sense. lt enables the teacher to have more time to teach childr en in the class including those with special needs. The Member for Fort Rouge also tal ked about the physical plans of schools.

Physical plans of schools of course is provided 100 percent in terms of approved cost by the Public Schools Finance Board. The changes that will have to take place will have to take place over time , clearly. We are spending 1 think in the neigh borhood of $20to $30 mill ion in school construction per year. Within that sum of money, I think, will come flexi bil ity both for the renovation of schools and new school construction, and I'm assuming that both school boards and the local advisory comm ittees will proceed in a common sense way in whatever alterations are required.

Clearly we cannot make all the changes that will be necessary in plans, by the begi nning of the next school year. When it comes to equipment for the teaching of childr en with special needs, I can tell him that it is my intention to move equi pment costs of this kind' for these children, to capital, and funded as a capital item from the Public Schools Fina nce Board. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister's remarks toward the conclus ion of his explanations to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge relating to Bill 58 were worth noting .

I think 451

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 I'd intended to mention that point , that in our preoccupation with Bill 58 and the fact of its not having been proclaimed and our discussion of the new ways in which we are going to be able to provide for the training of handicapped childr en, we're apt to lose sight of the fact that during the past decade there has been an improvement in the provision of the training for handicapped children in our province.

And atthe same time that we have improved the teaching and the education of handicapped childr en, we've been able to improve the vocational and the rela ted traini ng in special regular schools. I just want to draw the attention of the Minister to a suburban school division which is in the habit of sending some of its pupils to other divisions for special training, and pupils to other divisions for special courses that are not available in their own home divisions.

In this instance, in this particular school div ision, there are thirty-two pupils that would be classified as handi capped children, those with physical handicaps or hearing, or who are consider ed trainable and mentally handic apped. Thirty-two such children are sent to other divisions for special courses, or for special training. ln the second category there are 193 pupi Is from this division that go to other schools for special courses in vocational -oriented courses, and special french schools - things of that nature.

So this division has a total of 225 pupi Is that are being sent to other divisions for th is kind of specializ ed - I mentioned it as a suburban division - I didn' t indic ate the precise designation . I don't think it's really important. I think it happens to be ... Does the Minister wish to know this specific one? MR. TURN BULL: it's just, Mr. Chairman, that fig ures or statistics you know should always be put in context and if it is a large suburban division, then the figures have a certain meaning quite different than if it was a small suburban division. So I would li ke to know which division. MR.

McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I bel ieve these figures refer to School Division No. 6. My point is that the fees for these children are payable by the home division and they vary from $800 per pupil to $2,700 and this would cover a six month's period. The total cost in this division amounted in 1976 to $345,000, and in 1977 it is estimated at $440,000. Now my question, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister is in connection with the assumption of this expense by the school division. Are these fees entirely a charge on the school division or is the division reimbursed by special grants from the province?

Now the Minister mentioned some grants that were available for surveys, and for new programs. But I don't think there has been any explanation up to this point on the precise appl ication of the fees for pupils transferred from one division to another in order to take advantage of the special facil ities or courses that are offered . I wonder if the Minister could ind icate if there are some grants? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, that seemed to be a very detailed question that the member asked me but he really hasn't given me enough detail.

The fact is that, depen ding on where those childr en were sent, the department would pay in some cases for costs, and in other cases might not. For example, if the children were being sent to St. Amant, yes, the department would paysome of the costs. lfthechildr en were being sent to the Manitoba School for the Deaf, yes, we would pay I think al l of the costs. This is the kind of detail I need. I don't know if the Member for Brandon West wants this for the public record or not; perhaps if he could write me in detail I co uld get him the answers.

Otherwise we're going to be bogged down in precisely which students are moving to which program, for what reason, and who authorized their movement to these programs outside of the division, which also is a factor to take into consider ation . Another factor, of course, is whether they are native people or not. So that, although he seems to have given me a lot of information, he really hasn't given me enough to deal with the question. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, the purpose of the question was to try to determine if there was a formula basis for grants, if in fact grants do exist, and the Minister has ind icated they do. Now my question is what is the basis upon which these grants are made available to the divisions? Is it done on an ad hoc basis, on an ind ividual basis, or are there certain categories under which these reimbursements will be made to the divisions?

Now there may be some areas in which they ha ve to be dealt with individually but I would li ke to have some broad terms of reference from the Minister as to the way in wh ich his department comes to conclusions. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Bran don West indic ated that I said that there was a formula. Well there is no formula. There is no formula because of really the variety and diversity of programs that are provided. And what is done is as I have described. If the child has to go to the Manitoba School for the Deaf, we pay it all. If he goes to St. Am ant, we pay part.

If the child goes to some other program, we may or may not pick up part of the cost depen ding on who authorized the sendin g of the child to this program and depend ing on the nature of the program. 1 remind the Member for Brandon West, thoug h, that this year we did increase the per pupil grants for school divisions.

These grants rose from $100 per pupil to $125 per pupil and that amount of money, of course, is for the purpose of enabl ing the school divisions to exercise their autonomy, to exercise their discretion , and when we get to the grants package I think he will see how beneficial that program is for most school div isions. There is al ways the need for revisions in grants and the way in which we provide moneys, but although there is no specific formula based on the program required for a child who has moved out of a division, I do want to say to the member that there are 452

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 moneys provided by the department in a great variety of ways, as I'm sure he realizes. We fund the Child Guidance Center to the tune of half-a-m il lion a year. We fund the Manitoba School for the Deaf. We fund St. Amant Ward. We provide over half-a-mil li on dol lars for institutional teachers in various institutions in Manitoba. And we provide $3.8 mil lion for special resource teachers which are often specifically those teachers deal ing with childr en with special needs. MR. McGILL: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, then I think the inference here is that a division send ing childr en to another division for training which they would consider to be that required and not abte to be provided in their home divisi on, the division then would have to submit such cases to his department without having any advance information as to whether or not they would be reimbursed, or they would receive grants for this purpose.

In other words, would they be flying blind enti rely in this matter until the department had reviewed the li st in specific terms and determined what amount of reimbursement would be provided to the home division? MR. TURNBUL L: Mr. Chairman, how blind the school trustees are flying really depends on the extent of their knowledge of the programs funde d by the Department of Education. Many divisions have personnel who are extraordinaril y knowledgeable of various programs and they will advise and sugge st that the chil d go to a program were funding is provided .

In extreme cases, that is in those cases where costs are extraordinarily high for childr en, and for divisions, in terms of residual costs, it is my understanding that the department does pay for most of that cost. But again it is done on an individual basis. I have under consideration some rational ization of this method of funding. I am sharing my thoughts with the Member for Brand on West which I suppose is a dangerous thing to do in politics but I'll do it anyway.

There are, as I've said, a number of ways that the department has of funding the programs needed for childr en with special requirements. lt seems to me that there might be some way of bringing about a formula system of funding but to do so, of course, would mean that we would have to in some way alter the fund ing that we now provide. I mean it could not be an addition , and that is the problem . So I recogniz e that the Manitoba Association for School Trustees is looking for double grants, in effect, grants to the sending div ision and grants to the receiving division to cover the same child.

But that proposal, which may be what the Member for Bran don West is driving at, is not one that at the moment anyway I can entertain. The Member for Fort Rouge when he was here and speaking did talk about some of the plan ning required for the renovation or construction of building s - school buil dings for childr en with special needs. I want to point out to him, for the record anyway, that on the Ministers' Advisory Committee for the implementation of Bill 58.

There is a gentleman who is a paraplegic and he he is in effect one of the representatives of the group interested in the problems of the physically handicapped. He has met with the departmental architect and the school's finance board about the modif ication of school buil din gs. This is the way in which the whole problem is being approached. We are. involving people who have the problems with the departmental staff. There are, I think, great advantages in doing that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Meer for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, the Guidance Branch of the Department of Education was expanded under a new name called Student Personnel Services and that Student Personnel Services Branch continued into the fiscal year of 1975-76, but since then seems to have been abandoned. My question then to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, is: What branch or

section provides assistance to guidance staffs in the school divisions? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the one man involv ed in guidance is on a le ave of absence for a year, but that the function was absorbed in Child Development and Supp ort Services' Cl inical Services Sec tion. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, then at the moment there is no one in the department directly providing assistance to the division in the matter of the guidance function that was performed previously by this department.

Is the Minister tel ling me that there simply is a void here in terms of this service that was formerly provided to the school divisions? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the member asked me a specific question and as usual I tried to give him as specific an answer as possible without flowery elaboration on it, but he h�s no� asked me, in a sense, to give some elaboration . I hope that he understands the manner tn wh1ch the department and the divisions and districts throughout the province co-op�r��e in delivering s_ervices to childr en.

This co-operation exists between the department and the diVISions for the del ivery of services to children who need service from guid ance counsellors in the schools. The people who are acting on behalf of the department in this role are the professional staff in Child Development and Suppor t Services.

That branch has individua ls trained in, for example, psychology, which ! supp?se woul d be the cl osest thing to the training of a guidance counsellor in a school so that that IS the hnk, through Chil d Develop ment and Sup port Services. . 1 have had a number of those field staff - I recall one particular person from Stonewall who came into my office with four or five others from different regions of the province. We discussed this and 453

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 certainl y there are link s there and the department is providing the support when it is asked for by the guidance counsell ors. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, in spite of the Minister's efforts to fill this void, there seems to be definitely a downgradin g of this function and its importance in the educational system.

I wonder ifthe Minister, in al lowing this downgrading to take place, is ind icating to us that he doesn't consider this a major function in the educational system, that is the guidance and providing the assistance to childr en in the way of answering their problems relating to the kind of careers they will adopt and the work they are lik ely to undertake in the future. Am I to assume from the fact that this whole function ·h as been downg raded that the Minister is not consideri ng it as one of the major functions of his department? MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Brandon West should realize that counsellor s have been hired by school div isions primarily in urban areas. In other words, in the rural areas there are seldom full time guidance counsellors. The function of these people is continuing. 1 can't envisage any change in what they are doing. He asked me a question about what support the department was providing. I have indicated what support we are providing, by way of personnel in the department, to guidance counsellor s. Apart from that, there is nothing further that I can add on this. I have dealt with his questions. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister is famili ar with an educational goals survey that was completed in St. Vital. lt was, I think, available and done in June of 1976. The survey was conducted as it was felt there was a need for a clearer statement of what the tasks of public education should be. Specifically it was felt that such a goals survey would provide a clearer focus on what is expected of the school system in terms of program choice, curriculum development, instructional pla nning, learner performance, and system evaluation. Mr.

Chairman, I don't propose to deal in detai l with this because not all of it is completely relevant to the point at hand, but I wanted to be sure that the Minister was aware that the survey had been done and I'm sure perhaps he has seen it. But I think it is rather sign ificant that of the3, 000 or more people who responded in this survey - this included 169 teachers, 1,001 high school students, and 1,888 residents - the top choices in terms of educational goals of these more than 3,000 respondent s are, I think, worthy of note.

The first one was the abil ity to add, subtract, multiply, and divide with accuracy and understanding. That was the top choice of most of the people who responded. Mr. Chairman, the one I really want to bring to the attention of the Minister is the next one, the second one on the list, and this because it comes to bear clearly on the subject under discussion at this moment. The second most important of the top ten educational goals in the view of these more than 3,000 people was "to have knowledge and give guidance to help the student to make decisions about his educatio nal and vocational goals." So, Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister agrees that this kind of priority for guidance for students as a top educational goal is one that should deserve more attention from his department than the kind of phasing-out treatment it appears to be getting at the present time. MR. TURNBULL: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, the Member for Brandon West is al ways looking under his bed for whatever it is he expects to find there. There is no phasing out ofthe guidance counsellors in the province. School div isions are free to continue hiring gu idance counsell ors, as many guidance counsel lors as they wish.

They are employees of the school divisions. If the division trustees feel it is appropriate to hire guidance counsellors, they will hire guidance counsellors. The point to remember, though, if my recoll ection is correct, is that guidance counsellors are highly trained people. They have umpteen courses in fields related to guidance of children .

To sugge st after all that training, to perform their specific function they then in addition need enormous supports from the Department of Education to do their job, I think tends to put the Member for Brandon West in the position of denig rating both thei r training and their responsibi lity and the w ay in which they carry out their duties.

They are highl y quali fied and they are empl oyees of school divisions. ' I have explained to the Member for Brandon West that Chil d Development and Supp ort Services does have staff available, it's approximately 70 professional staff, in that neighbour hood, who can, if necessary, consult with the guidance counsellors in the schools. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assin iboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I'd li ke to touch on one area. I've lis tened to the Minister for the last hour or so in respect to childr en with special needs.

The area that I would be somewhat concerned, and perhaps the Minister can ind icate, how this area will be handled . ! am ofcoursetalking about pre school childr en or kind ergarten children who are deaf. I am sure that the Minister is aware that this is an area that reall y needs not only special attention, but this group is in a situation that you need special ized teachers, you need audiolog ists, you need speech therapists.

We need assistance and perhaps more social workers out because it's in that stage of these children, at the stage when they are in pre-school, or in kind ergarten, that you need the special services for them, that you can fit them into the publi c schools system and they can do well through their education process and be in a 454

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 stream lik e any other students. If you don't give the pre-school or kinder garten that special attention and special training, then we may lose them in the public schools system and they may have to go to The School for the Deaf and have to learn the sign lan guage which if proper care would have been taken in the beginn ing, they would have been within the school system and would have been able to read and write just lik e anybody else and do proper work.

I am sure the Minister knows and quite wel l, and I am sure the department knows, that we haven't got sufficient supporting staff for that kin d of program for, as I said, the trained teachers to deal with the deaf children , the audiolog ists, the special social workers to deal in this area. I think it's a very, very important area and at this most serious time , when these children are at that age, that proper eval uation could be made.

I've met with parents many times where they've taken their chil dren to doctors and doctors and doctors and out of the province, all over, and they couldn' t understand 'w hy there was no progress, the child wasn't making the progress in the school system. And finall y it was discovered the chi ldren couldn't hear and not only in one case. I've met with the Manitoba group, who I'm sure the Minister is perhaps aware, on many occasions in my constituency with many parents who just related the stories to me that I couldn' t bel ieve that was possible. But it is possible and that's what reall y happens.

So I say to the Minister it is an area, a very important area, that when we're talking about chil dren with special needs and this is the time, this is the area, that proper evaluation be made and if we can keep these children in the public school system, then you have to have proper teachers, you have to have trained teachers to deal with that. You have to have sufficient audiologis ts, you have to have proper speech therapists and social workers.

Now, my other question to the Minister is: Has he made any kind of an appraisal by going into the program and as far as I'm concerned, I'm all for the program and I don't think we should be dragg ing our feet. I think we should be moving into the program with some careful course of action thought out, but on the other hand, we shouldn' t be dragging our feet moving into the program. But what is the Minister going to do about the sufficient staff?

I know that he has mentioned that he has met with the Dean of the Department of Education , University of Manitoba, if I'm not mistaken, to have some input, but can some of the teachers take these extra courses that they require here in the province, or it seems to me that some of the teachers have to go somewhere else to secure that special type of training. So I think that whole area is very important, the support staff, and to make sure that proper assessment is made of these chil dren in their early ages. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, I was mention ing the other day what I regard as a miracle, namely, the abil ity of trained professionals to teach the profoundly deaf child to speak. And I saw that occuring at the Socie ty for Crippled Children and Adults centre on Sherbr ook. I belie ve I was instrumental before I was in the Cabinet of getting a program set up in the public school systems of Winnipeg No. 1 which would enable those childr en to go from the society's training program to a regular aural program in the Winnipeg school system. That program exists now; I bel ieve it's located at the Gladstone Scho ol.

That program of course has staff and there is a pre-school program there as well. The Department of Education funds it; I think it's $80,000 that we provide for the Gladstone School program for the hard of hearing. In addition to that, we have a pre-school program and a staff person atthe Manitoba School for the Deaf. And there is a simil ar position at the Society for Crippled Children and Adults that enables that society to hire someone to teach pre-school children. So I think there are staff and there are moneys available and I agree with them. Indeed I think to see that happen ing is a miracle.

To see someone who has acquired the ski ll and the knowledge to be able to take a profoundly deaf child, deaf at birth, and teach that chil d to speak, is really a wonder to behold. But in addition to this, which is a direct answer to the member's question, there are other programs that the department has going. There are hearing and vision screen ing projects under way. This is a joint effort with the Department of Health and Social Development to identify those children both with auditory and visual impairments. That program is under way.

There are three full time Child Development and Suppor t Services audiol ogists with this hearing program and they will be testing an additional 15,000 pre-school and school ch ildren in rural areas, where I think the need lik ely is greatest because there just isn't the service in some of the rural areas that there is in the City of Winnip eg. I bel ieve that answers that part of the Member for Assinib oia's questions. In terms of training of the people that teach the childr en there we have a somewhat different situation .

There is a school lo cated in Washing ton for the training of individuals who want this particular special ized knowledge. I don't think it would be sen sible to establ ish a similar school in Winnipeg. This school in Washington serves virtually all of North America, as I understand it. lt's a good school and I think that the course that's provided there is sensibl e and it's certainly an economically viable way of doing it. There are courses provided in other pla ces, of course.

There are courses provided in Vancouver, for example, but I'm sure .the member understands that to set up ind ividuals with the desired expertise, knowledge and experience to teach the teachers of the deaf is an expensive proposition and, frankly, I would lik e to see ind ividuals who are interested in that kind of training get it in a place that's internationall y recognized. 455

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 51 (e) (1) - pass; (e)

(2) Other Expenditu res $480,100 - pass. Resolution 51 (

f) Special Programs and Projects: Salaries $181,800. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I note last year we voted $125,000 for the Special Program and Projects Branch, but the actual expenditure seems to have grown to $233,800. I wonder if the Minister can account for this al most doubling of the amount appropriated. I presume that special warrants were issued for additi onal. We're now on (

f) Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of the Minister, and I'm asking him if he can now tell me why we voted $125,000 and it appears that actually expended were $233,800. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, rather than hold up the committee until I find the answer to that accounting question perhaps I co uld have staff who are here dig up the answer and other members could move on to other questions. I'll get him a reconcil iation of that as soon as possible. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I think it must be more than just an accounting question when we double the amount of the voted appropriation during the actual expenditu res of the year, but I'm sure the Minister will be able to, somehow, account for this great increase. Mr. Chairman, if we compare what is now being asked for, $287,400, with what they asked for last year, assuming both amounts are going to grow in somewhat the same proportion during the currency of the year under proposal, why is this amount growing at this rate?

Is this grants for Special Programs and Projects a refuge for the old Plan ning and Research Department activities? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if it's a refuge or not. MR. McGILL: Well then could the Minister comment on why the increase in the requested appropriation this year as compared with last year, what additional activities is he proposi ng under this heading? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, at the risk of giving answers based on program development, I will proceed.

But I want the member to realize that often increases in appropriations are the result of increments in salaries and adj ustments in salaries as a resul t of negotiations. I know the member knows that but I just wanted to remind him of it. This

section I belie ve has been very active in developin g a variety of programs and I think these programs could be described, if he would lik e me to describe them . MR. McGILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'd lik e the Minister if he would just outline the programs and projects that were comp leted during the past twelve months, by this department. Perhaps that would provide the answers. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, the completion of programs in this area is not one that can be seen in a cut-and-dried way.

Special Projects' programs that are developed in conjunction with teachers through the province and any project, as far as I know, that the departmental staff had under way is pi loted and then they get revisions back and it's revised and it goes out agai n, and that is the way it proceeds. So to say that this program is over and done with or that program is over and done with is not an easy thing to do.

For example, the Canadian Studies Program which is one of these projects here, did comple te some work last year but that does not mean that all of the work of that particular group of people, or person, is comple ted. The Canadian Studies area, for example, does have as its primary objective the increase in Canadian content in school curriculum, the increase in Canadian content not only in Canadian history courses, or in Canadian geography courses, or in Canadian literature courses, but in all subject areas and at all grade levels.

Now to accompli sh this objective the members of the Canadian Studies Project Committee have commissioned the preparation of a selective bibl iography of Canadian materials and these are recommended - these materials. That is , the selections in the bibl iography are recommended for purchase by school li braries. The bibl iography I am referring to is the one that I have in my hand here, appropriately colored red and white with the maple le af in the center of it.

And it says "In Search of Canadian Material" and not as Bill Morton said "In Search of Canadian Iden tity", but "In Search of Canadian Material." 11 is a rather large bibl iography, and it is cross-referenced and it enables both li brarians and teachers to have a resource book which will enable them to get the kind of material that they need for teaching various subjects in the various grades. I think this is desirable. We've had requests for this bibl iography from other provincial departments of education. They are interested in it.

The unique feature of it, I belie ve, is not that it merely compiles everything involv ed with Canadian content, but what it does is select and list those materials that have reference to particular grade levels. And 1 know that when I was being briefed in this particular project I went through it very quickly and said well, so-and-so's book is not here, and so-and-so's book is not here, and so-and-so's book is not here, and the staff very rightly pointed out to me thatthose books I was talk ing about were not books geared to the public school level . So they were not included.

So it's a book of materials designed to enable li brarians and teachers to purchase information that is available in Canada and for Canad ians. This same

section negotia ted the reissuing of Canadian materials which are out of print. 456

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 Frederick Phillip Groves material, for exampl e, I am under the impression has been negotiated to be reprinted . They've also put out some other rather unique material such as "Manufacturing in Winnip eg", which of course is very useful if you are teaching geography. The same

section initiated the development of a wide variety of Canad ian material including multimedia kits and Canadian Studies Themes, a series of biographies of Manitoba personalities, a school broadcast on the Waterhen Area, and several community studies projects. And the people working in this area have promoted the use of Canadian materials through consult ations with teachers, through in-services, and through visits to schools. That is just one area of the Special Programs and Projects Branch. I think they've done a commendable job. There are others here as wel l.

The onl y point is, Sir , that their work is ongoi ng. lt is conti nuous and it is in consult ation with teachers in the field. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I gather then that there are no programs that would be consid ered as compl ete, that all the programs that are under way now are continuin g on into the co ming year. Mr. Chairman, I wonder in view of the more than 100 percent increase in the requested appropriation whether the Minister could indic ate what special new programs are contempla ted in the coming twelve months.

There is obviously some new work contemp lated because of the amount of the appropriation, so perhaps he could tel l us just what the extra studies are going to be. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 51 (f)(1). The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I was hoping the Ministerw ould be able to give some ind ication why twice as much money was needed to do the same work.

Sur ely ther e is some additional work being proposed this year and I'm just asking him for some explanation as to what new programs are being undertaken, or does this mean that the present programs are going to cost twice as much. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I offered to obtain a reconcil iation of these figures. With the appropriate staff in and out, it should have been here - it's not. Staff have provided some notes. Rather than proceed on that basis, though, I would lik e to get it in very complete form for the member. And we can handle this appropriation in any way.

I can read it into the record on some other vote, if you want, or we can leave this vote and pass on. But I wo uld li ke to get it in as accurate form as possible. MR. McGILL: I accept that offer of information to come. Mr. Chairman, we might mention the career education project. I don't think the Minister mentioned that project as being one under active consider ation . This project, in the beginning, was funded by the department as an innovative project. And it received $13,000 in 1973, and $16,000 in 1974. Materials were purchased and much teacher time and departmental staff time was devoted to the project.

I wonder if the Minister could tell me how much money went into this project in 1975, and in 1976. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I'll have to again take that question and get that specific information for the member, as wel l. MR. CHAIRMAN: We could leave that item then, and agree that we go on and we come back to it after. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I had a series of questions relating to that information and some of it would depend upon the answers that the Minister would be able to suppl y, in terms of the money that was spent on these projects.

I was going to perhaps leave that particular item and the Minister said he will get the information and perhaps ask him it he can tell me if this project, that is the career education project, was field- tested, and how extensively was this field testing done, and with what results. MR. TURN BULL: Yes . I'm told that there were fifty kits publ ished and twenty of them are now out in the field being field- tested. MR.

McGILL: This program began in 1973 and has been carrying on since then and there were fifty kits and only twenty are out so tar in the field , and have any results or evaluations come in from that rather less than 50 percent? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, this project is one that I understand has been worked on in conjunction not onl y with the teachers in the schools, but in conju nction with the Chamber of Commerce. And I assume that that means a fair amount of communication involved.

I also understand that not only is the Department of Education involved, the teachers involved , the Chamber of Commerce involved , but the federal government is now also involved. And I think that, though I'll check this, I think that may be the explanation why the program appears not to have del ivered as much to the children as one might expect. There is discussion under way though, with the federal Department of Man power. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, ple ase.

In accordance with Rule 19(2) of our House rules, I'm interrupting the proceed ings of the committee for Private .Members' Hour and shall return to the Chair at 8 p.m. this evening. ESTIMATES -AG RICULTURE 457

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding(St. Vital): Order please. We have a quorum, gentlem en, the Committee of Suppl y will come to order. I direct honourable members to Page 5 in their Estimates Book, Reso lution 10. You will notice there are two items under that, we may label them for convenience, (

a) for Administration and (

b) for Net Interest Cost. Resolu tion 10(a}, the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EIN ARSON: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to continue from last night on the main item on this resolution , The Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation .

I wanted to ask further if this is going to be pol icy come the next ele ction , as far as instead of leasing land you are now al lowing these farmers to buy the land that you have already le ased to them - if you are el ected and the word is a big "if", re-elected , what assurance have the farmers of this province got that you won't revert back to the policy that you had or that you have at the present time? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Well first of all, Mr.

Chairman, I think we should point out that there is no change in policy excepting that we are making it easier, within the same poli cy, for people to opt to purchase their land. The option to purchase is in the present lease agreements. The only thing that makes it redundant is the infl ationary factors that have entered into the picture over the last three or four years. So that while the option is there in legal terms, in terms of the possibi lity or the abil ity of an ind ividual to raise capital on the basis of inflated land values is an open question.

So this simply removes that burden from that i nd ivid ual and allo ws hi m or her to exercise the option that was always there, in a more meaningful way; The option is part of the agreement now. lt always has been. MR. EIN ARSON :Then, Mr. Chairman, from the answer the Minister gives me on this point, it is still the intention of this govern ment, if they were re-elected, to carry on the pol icy of buying up farm land if it is so desi red by anyone who wants to sel l to them? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I would li ke to remind members, espec iall y members opposite, that we have enunciated many many years ago that there is a need for some other option to be made available to people who cannot go the mortgage route, who are unable to finance themselv es into agriculture. So this is merely another option and we belie ve that it is good to have at least two options. One is the mortgage route, the other is this route which would facilitate the needs of all of those interested in becoming agricultural ists in this province. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDE RSON: Mr.

Chairman, I wo uld lik e to ask the Minister: Would the buying terms be the same as in the origi nal agreement, that all the money had to be raised in cash in six months? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: We have discussed this with the Federal Credit Corporation, the Farm Credit Corporation , and they see no reason why they could not facil itate a purchase under one of our agreements through their credit program.

Their credit program is a little less costly interest-wise than what ours would be if we had one, so that it does make sense to integ rate the two; that whenever a farmer under the Lease Program here opts to purchase, that he would do so and would be financed through FCC at a much lower interest rate. MR. HENDE RS ON: In other words you have been in touch with FCC and a person could ... but you want all your money paid out for the Provincial Government but it would have to be borrowed through FCC. MR. USKIW: Well it would then become a mortgage arrangement under FCC. MR.

HENDERSON : And you set out term conditions of capital gain. How do they work if there did happen to be capital loss? MR. USKIW: That is spelled out in that statement, Mr. Chairman. If there is a capital gain, at the end of twenty years, of course, the lessee or the purchaser has full rights to that capital gain. They have earned that gain in other words. If they choose to purchase any time below twenty years, of course, then there is a sharing of the gain as between the lessee or the purchaser and the Crown. So that the lessee earns his capital gain at five percent per year over twenty years. MR.

HENDE RSON: Will this be done by having a caveat put on the title? Su pposing FCC financed the money, would this go as a caveat on the title that would be ... MR. USKIW: I wou Id imagine that would be the legal instrument alt hough I am not certain of that. I would have to assume that. lt would have to be binding in law, in one form or another. We haven't gone into that detail. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EIN ARSON: Mr. Chairman, through you, Sir , to the Minister, to refresh my memory. Under what authority was your legislation when you started this program, say about five years ago?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: lt is under the Credit Corporation Act as it was then. MR. EIN ARSON: An amendment was made. MR. USKIW: No, the powers were there all along. 458

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 MR. EINARSON: You still haven't refreshed my memory yet. So in other words, Mr. Chairman, I was wondering if the Minister had contem plated at all on bringing in a bill to introduce this authority that you have granted now to make a change in the whole program. MR. USKIW: No, this is a policy statement, Mr. Ch airman, it is · not required that a bill be introduced . lt could be done by legisla tion but it is merely a policy statement. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I would lik e to ask the Minister: Had he any intentions of bringing in a bill in regards to this polic y? MR.

USKIW: lt is a matter of pol icy and it could be done at some point in time but it is not necessary. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, my question was: Had he any intentions, was it his intention to bring in a bill ? MR. USKIW: lt was an option considered, yes. MR. EINARSON: That being the case, what changed the Minister's mind ? MR. USKIW: Well I think that it is a matter of the legisla tive load for the session and there are much more important items. This would be looked upon as a houseke eping item. lt is a matter of departmental priorities in legisla tion . lt may come up at another time but not at this session.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Resol ution 10(a) - pass? The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I would li ke to deal with a statement that was made by the Member from Morris, although he is not here. Yesterday he raised the question of who has access to file s of the Credit Corporation and was very ind ignant about the fact that somewhere along the way some people's files became publi c knowledge. A gentleman by the name of Mr. Klassen I belie ve was mentioned , if I recall it correctly. I would lik e to reply to the Committee on that one because I think it was insufficiently answered yesterday.

Whenever a cl ient complains to the department or to anyone in the govern ment, what fol lows from that complaint is a search of the file to determine the facts in order to be able to respond to the one who is launching the complain t. In this instance, this Mr. Kla ssen had phoned the Premier's office, had complai ned about the fact that the Corporation rejected his appl ication for a loan of some six or seven hundred thousand dol lars and wanted the Premier's office to intercede on his behalf. The Premier's office was not prepared to do that and subsequently his loan was rejected .

So that is the only way in which that file would have found itself then to the Premier's office, only on the request of the indi vidual who wanted to compl ain about the Corporation and went beyond the Ministry in charge, straight up to the Premier's office. I hope that answers my honourable friends as to why it is that that file was in the hands of the staff of the Premie r's office. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: I have a question then, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, to do with the leases of the Honourable Member for Lakes ide and myself.

There was information suppl ied to the newspaper and my information was that it came from the Chairman of that Board. MR. USKIW: The Chairman of which board? MR. FERGUSON: Of the MACC. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: MR. Mr. Chairman, I think the member should not be so sensitive about . MR. FERGUSON: I am not sensitive at all. MR.

USKIW: ... about the public knowing that the Member for Lakeside and himself happen to engage in lease arrangements with the Crown, because that particular report and file was tabled in the Legisla ture a year ago with all of the names, add resses and acreages of all leaseholders in the province, on the request of someone. I don't know who it was that wanted that information. That is public knowledge, there is no secret there. Mr. Chairman, I wo uld lik e to clarify one more point. lt has nothing to do with the Credit Corporation, those leases are managed by the Crown land

section of the Department of Agricultur e. lt has nothing to do with the Agricultural Credit Corporation . MR. FERGUSON: Wel l, in any event, the information suppl ied was out about 1, 7 40 acres. That was all I was interested in getting across. MR. USKIW: Wel l, that is fair comment, I had no idea. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolu tion 10, the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, I just want to thank the Minister for his response to the Member for Morris, but I think the Member for Morris was making a comment about somebody with in the First Minister's department stating that he has access to private files and that is I belie ve the concern that the Member for Morris had. He was trying to find out, you know, on what authority this person was making such a comment. I think, Mr. Chairman, the Minister has not given us an adequa te answer insofar as the privacy of an ind ividual's account is concerned with the MACC. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I have to respond by reminding the Member for Rock Lake that I full y 459

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 answered that yesterday, and that is that that information is not public information and can only be released by way of consent of the cl ient, in which case it has been done onc e or twice in the Legislatur e in the last year or two' invol ving the former Chairman's son who had a loan with the Corporation. I bel ieve that file was tabled in the Legislature. Because of the intense questioning of the opposition we undertook to get permission from the cl ient to table that fil e and I belie ve it was tabled.

But that is the onl y procedu re that is emp loyed, other than when there is a complaint launched by the clie nt, him or herself, then it's follo wed up in the normal way. The only way one can follow that up is by looking at all of the correspondence and transactions that have taken place. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, just one more further ejection on this particular point. I full y agree with the Minister that if a cl ient wants to investigate this thing and is prepared to give information, that is one matter and I agree with him.

But the point, as I understood the Minister to make - and if I misunderstood him I stand to be corrected - but since this particular cl ient did not get the proper satisfaction from the Chairman of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation he then sought to go to the First Minister. MR. USKIW: Rig ht. MR. EINARSON: I feel and my point is this, that by going to the First Minister doesn't give someone in his department the right to say that I have access to their files and can tell them all about it. That's the point I was making. MR. USKIW: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, I am not in a position to know the kind of discussion that took place between that individual on the staff of the Premier's office and the cl ient in question. My understanding is that there was somewhat of a shouting match going on as between a number of people and things were stated back and forth, and I reall y don't know that on the basis of that information that it's worthy of our time to discuss what was said one way or the other. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 10 (a)-pass. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister give us information as to the increase on this amount of money from $1 ,309,000 to $1 ,499,000? MR. USKIW: Yes, there's a $45.8 thousand increase in salaries; and there's 19.9 in operating. This is something perhaps that members are not aware of under the new Corporate Capital Tax Act, this Corporation now pays $179,000 in taxes to the Crown under the Corporate Capital Tax Act passed a year ago. So that's an item of expenditure. MR. EINARSON: Would it be appropriate to ask, Mr. Chairman, under this heading, it gives the loans for Farm Diversification.

Can the Minister indic ate how many farmers are under the Farm Diversification Program in the Province of Manitoba today? MR. USKIW: The number under the FOP Program is 2,415. That's as of February 28th, 1977. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, under Administration is there any cost in the way of farm management on these farms that the government buy and lease back, or is it just in the buying up the land, the writing up of the agreements and the foll ow-through on that? Is there any admin istration charges? Do they do any farm supervision of the different pla ces? MR.

USKIW: Those charges are not passed on to the cl ient, they are absorbed by the Corporation as they do in credit arrangements and so on. MR. HENDERSON: So they'd come into a small extent under Adminis tration as I thought. MR. USKIW: That's right. Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, under this particular program I recognize it deals with possibl y a very worthwhil e attempt in bringing fairly marginal farm operations with the help of the diversification counselli ng and grants and loans, hopefull y bringing sub-marginal farm operations into the viable farm operation field; and as such undoubtedly you're undertaking a considerable risk. Could the Minister with the help of his staff give us some ind ication , some evaluation of the program: (a} Into some rough terms your success and failure rate in this particular field.

In other words you have given us in response to the Member for Rock Lake a figure of the number of farmers or loans currently under the program, have you got any further information as to the number of instances where the program hasn't succeeded? You know, I'm couching this in the language cautiously because I recognize that you're deal ing in an area where your risk factor is pretty high. I unde rstand the program, basically, constitutes an outright $2,000 grant. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a Point of Order. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, what we are now debating is on the next page under Farm Management. Now the credit corn ponent is only the response side from the Credit Corporation to the program under Farm Management, and the Member for Lakeside is debating the program not the money. MR. ENNS: That's fine, Mr. Chairman. I would only ind icate that perhaps if by the time we get to that particular item on the Estimates his staff will have time to have some figures before us. 460

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 MR. USKIW: That's what they are doing. MR. ENNS: ... questions that I've asked now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolu tion 10 (a)-pass; Reso lution 10 (b) , Net Interest Cost-pass. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Would the Minister indic ate the substantial $1 mil lion reduction in that Interest Cost on this item as noted? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, we did that yesterday.

I ind icated that we played down the volume of purchases last year which, in essence, meant that we didn' t util ize all of the capital which we had budgeted for; and since all of it would have been subsid ized interest had we util ized it obviously there is a reduction in our cost there. There's also a half mil li on dollar reduction due to the adjustment in the interest rate after five years of two percentage points. Then there's also repayments that are flowing in which does not require us to go back to for new capital advances. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR.

HENDERSON: I missed that point there. What was the low interest rate for, was it for three years or five years? MR. USKIW: Yes' if you're talking about the under 35 age group it's five years at a discount rate, two percent below the norm. After the fifth year the rate is adjusted to where it should be. MR. HENDERSON: Five years at five percent, then. MR. UWKI USKIW: No, no. Mr. Chairman, the member is confusing the Loans Program with the Lease Program. The Lease Program is five percent for three years, and then it's adjusted. MR. HENDERSON: Five to three, that's right. MR. USKIW: That's right.

Under the Loans Program for young people unde r 35 they get a break on the interest rate for the first five years, after which it gets adjusted . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Before we leave the item of the Manitoba Agricultur al Credit Corporation, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if through you the Minister, could indicate to us what is the total amount of moneys over the periods of years that the Corporation has been incorporated, what is the glob al figure that is standin g out in credit to the Manitoba farmers?

The second part of that question, roughl y, what kind of a cash flow is coming back in terms of repayment on long outstanding loans in an annual layout - rough figures - just to give us an idea of the amount of money thatthe corporation has to date loaned out to Manitoba farmers? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, to give a ro ugh answer to that, the 60 outst anding amounts are somewhere in the order of odd milli ons of dolla rs. The repayments on an ann ual basis are running at about $6 mil lion . Now, we can get very precise figures for the Member for Lakeside if he wishes.

A MEMBER: What's your percentage on arrears? , MR. USKIW: Percentage of arrears? The total authority to date is 80 mill ion but it's not all used. With respect to the arrears situation I bel ieve it's around 25 percent at the moment. That's in total (l nterjection)- Yes, the arrears show up dramatically in November and then they fall off very quickly after that point. -(Int erjection)- Yes, your due date is in November. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 10( b) -pass; Resolution 10 - the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think now my question is probably pertinent to the one that I asked earl ier with respect to farm diversification loans or are we still ... MR. CHAIRMAN: We haven't passed Resolu tion 10 yet. Reso lution 10 is still before the Committee. Resol ution 10- Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2,299,200 for Agriculture - passed. Resolution 11, Farm Management (

a) Regio nal Division

(1) Salaries, the Honourable Member for Lakes ide. MR. ENNS: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, I am somewhat reluctant to raise the question for the third time but are we in order, at this time, to talk about the farm diversification program? I wo uld appreciate from the Minister an evaluation of that program in terms of either percentage figures or numbers figures, success and failure programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: That specifically is 4(

c) Canada-Manitoba ARDA but I have no problem in trying to discuss it at the moment. The total app lications are 2,415, that is accepted; total processed were 3,241; appl ications rejected 826; appl ications accepted 2,415; graduates 593; number of withd rawals 207; number of loans 959; amount of loans $7.3 milli on roughl y; farm conversion grants $3.4 mil li on and train ing workshops just under $800,000.00. Now in terms of the success of the program, we have asked for an evaluation of that and I belie ve we can get that data. lt reflects itself in productivity per unit and in the increase in income per unit. 461

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 That is sort of a measure that we are trying to apply to determ ine its success or failure. And as 1 recall it by and large most of the people have increased very substantiall y their productivity and income position under the program. But, perhaps we might be able to get some precise statistics on that. Some evaluation has been carried out. I don't bel ieve it was on all of the clien ts but on a sample of cl ients. MR. ENNS: Let me use another way of getting at this question , just a direct question.

In how many instances has the grant been made available under this program to individuals who are now, within say the last 12 months or since the inception of this program, no longer involved or engage d in any farming enterprise. MR. USKIW: I'm not sure that I can supply that information. In other words how many people have retired from agriculture. MR. ENNS: I raise the point, Mr.

Chairman, because it's been brought to my attention from observing the program in the actual field applic ation and from discussing it with various Agricultural Representatives throughout the province that in many instances the concern was expressed to me that a great deal of time and a great deal of manpower is expended in this direction as one could well understand but the actual success ratio was very disapp ointing.

In many instances after having spent a great deal of time with some of the clien ts under this program, having been advanced capital grants of $2,000 or perhaps additional credit, the initial grants of $2,000 pl us the additional credit available through him up to a maximum of $10,000 I bel ieve under the MACC onlyt o find eight months later or ten months later or six months later the person who the ag rep spent a great deal of time with in counselli ng and in attempting to improve his farm situation finds that the person for one reason or another decides to leave farming entirely.

Really what I'm after is accountabil ity on the part of the Department of Agriculture; some accountability in terms of the publ ic money being spent in this manner as to what kind of losses have we encou ntered in this particular program. Now the Minister can refute that that's not the case, I'm merely reporting what my obse rvations have been in the field. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I think first of all we should set the program in perspective.

The program was set up to upgrade a large number of our rural popula tion who were really in a low income position and many of whom lacked in farm management abil ities and so on. When we launc hed the program we sort of accepted the theory that we would be comp letely successful if 50 percent or more of our clien ts sort of made the program or graduated successfull y. That was sort of the bench-mark that we thought we woul d be satisfied with. I'm led to bel ieve by the analysis people that it's running about 80 percent or somewhere between 75 and 80 percent successful.

So that while we have numbers of people who have not benefited a great deal they are relatively small in number. There are one or two gl aring cases in which it's obvious that the whole effort was a waste of money and time but by-and-large the program is succ�ss ful; much better than what we had antici pated that it would be. Now we can give you statistics on that but I don't have them handy at the moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member tor Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, it's interesting to hear the Minister say that if 50 percent of these people who are being assisted through the diversification program are successful then the department is satisfied. I wonder of the 2,415 that he mentioned can he ind icate at all how many of those never had any farming experience when they first took on the program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. USKIW: I don't know that there would be any without any farm experience, very unl ikely, very unl ikely. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, probably I could indic ate some information to the Minister that I have actually seen for myself: a program of trying to improve a pasture land, trying to improve pasture land, Mr. Chairman, whereby the farmer used a corn planter to sow grass seed on native soil, that is wild grassla nd. Furrows were made to put the grass in and I was wondering if this grass came from McKenzie Seeds and is the program money that was totally wasted. I say, Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister that it was an absolute total loss and I wonder just where was this particular farmer getting his advice from the Department of Agriculture. it's a case where I guess they were trying to improve the grass situation because this man was in the dairy business. lt was a total loss, I can report to the Minister. I was just wonderi ng ... MR. USKIW: I think I did point out to members that we did have a few bad cases lik e that. I don't know anything about that one in particular but there is a selection process that one has to give some recognition to.

The selection committee is composed of the regional director of the department, two farmers from the area, an ag rep, a farm credit corporation representative and the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation representatiive. That's the selection com mittee that deal with the appl ications to the program so it's a fairly representative committee and every farmer is interviewed before they are accepted and eval uated so that one has to rely on some process, mechanical means of going through the appl ications and selec ting what is consid ered to be reasonable candidates.

There is no doubt that it's not perfect but it's about as close as we can get it in my opinion. 462

Tuesday, March 8, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 11 (a)(1) - pass; (a)

(2) Further Expend itures - pass; (a) - pass. Resolution 11 (

b) Economics Branch

(1) Salaries, the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I would lik e to ask the Minister a question in regards to the Econom ics Branch. I understand that the Economics Branch have pla yed a major role in the setting up in 1975 of the Manitoba Indian Agricultural Program and has one director on the Board of this corporation contributing to the promotion developm ent of Ind ian farming operations in Manitoba. I would be interested in hearing, Mr. Chairman, whether or not there was any success and probably give us some explanation as to what this program is all about. MR. USKIW: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, I know that we are involved in the program althoug h it is a Federal program in which we are partici pating as an agent. Wel l, we're not participating financial ly but we have been involved, I bel ieve, on a committee. Again, I would indicate to the Member for Rock Lake that we are not in charge of the program whatever, although there has been some li aison between the federal people and our department.

One of our departmental people has resigned from our department to take on a position with the federal government in charge of that program. lt is really not someth ing that we are funding. lt doesn't appear in our Estimates. it's a federal program. MR. EINARSON: Well I just refer to your report, your annual report in the Department of Agriculture . . . · MR. USKIW: Our people were instrumental in helping them put it together but that's as far as it has gone. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 11 (b) (1), the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, I would lik e to ask the salaries ind icated here, this year $215,200, is there no relationsh ip on the salaries paid here in regards to the various Indi an reservations in the Province of Manitoba. MR. USKIW: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolu tion 11 (b)(1) - pass; (b)

(2) Other Expenditures - pass. Resolu tion 11 (

c) Canada Manitoba ARDA Agreement

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it's lik ely not the approp riate place in the Estimates at this time but I would lik e to make some comments about the AR DA-FRED Agreement whic h honourable members of the committee may or may not be aware is concluding right about this time. lt is a program, I believe, of some historic sign ificance in this province, one that I have had a great deal of interest in, in being part of and in watching its conclusion and its operation under the present administration.

I remind the honourable members of the committee that it is a program that was lau nched with some considerable fanfare and public headlin es, the $85 milli on develo pment program for the interlake area, one of three such development programs entered into by the federal government and provinces, the others being in the eastern townships of Quebec and in New Brunswick.

I would li ke to ask the Honourable Minister that in ligh t of the scope of this program whether or not he would not consider to at some point in time, either in the summation of his comments on his Estimates when we deal with the Minister's Salar y or perhaps at some later date in the House consider providing members of the House and the general public with a final update or evaluation of this program. ! only know it's a program that certainly chal lenged the imag

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-14a
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Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 14a.pdf
Language	en
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