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May 6, 2022

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Bernard Davis, MHA for Virginia Waters -

Pleasantville, substitutes for Paul Pike, MHA for Burin - Grand Bank.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Barry Petten, MHA for Conception Bay South,

substitutes for Jeff Dwyer, MHA for Placentia West - Bellevue.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Siobhan Coady, MHA for St. John's West,

substitutes for Scott Reid, MHA for St. George's - Humber.

The Committee met at 9 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Gambin-Walsh):

Folks, we will call the meeting to order. Today we will have, shortly,

substituting for MHA Pike, Minister Davis will be substituting. Substituting for

MHA Reid, we have Minister Coady, and substituting for MHA Dwyer, we have MHA

Petten.

We don't have any independents here right now and if they do join us, we will

allow them 10 minutes at the end when everybody is finished if the Committee is

okay with that.

So we will probably take a break around 10:20, 10:15, just so whoever is on the

other side can know when we are going to break also, if that is okay, or

whenever we are at the end. If we finish early, we will keep going.

When it is your time to speak, I want you just to remember to make sure your red

light is on, to identify yourself and if the light doesn't come on, just give a

gentle wave. They will be just looking to make sure who is speaking. I am going

to ask the Committee – so the employees have to wear a mask, but Members do not

have to wear a mask. We can put them on or not put them on. So I just want to

let you know that.

I am going to ask the Committee Members to introduce themselves first then I

will ask the minister to introduce his members or get them to introduce

themselves when we call the meeting to order, and then the minister can have his

few minutes and we will start the questions.

Okay, the Committee – MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Barry Petten, MHA for Conception Bay South.

D. HYNES:

Darrell Hynes, Director of Research and Legislative Affairs with the Opposition

Office.

J. DINN:

Jim Dinn, MHA for St. John's Centre.

CHAIR:

We are waiting for a red light down there on the end.

S. FLEMING:

Scott Fleming, Researcher, Third Party Caucus.

D. HAMLYN:

Dave Hamlyn, Sessional Support, Government Members Office.

S. COADY:

Siobhan Coady, MHA, St. John's West.

Bernie Davis from Virginia Waters will be with us momentarily.

L. STOYLES:

Lucy Stoyles, MHA, Mount Pearl North.

CHAIR:

Minister Osborne.

T. OSBORNE:

Thank you.

Tom Osborne, Minister and I guess we will start with the eldest of our group.

E. BARNES:

Thank you, Minister.

Eldred Barnes, Associate Deputy Minister.

G. O'LEARY:

Greg O'Leary, Deputy Minister.

R. HAYES:

Robyn Hayes, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services.

M. BUDGELL:

Marc Budgell, Director of Communications.

T. STAMP:

Tracy Stamp, Departmental Controller.

R. FEAVER:

Robert Feaver, Director of Student Financial Services.

S. LINEHAN:

Scott Linehan, ADM, K-12 and Early Learning.

R. POWER:

Regan Power, Director of Literacy and Institutional Services.

B. CLARKE:

Bradley Clarke, Director of Programs and Services.

M. GOSS-PROWSE:

Mary Goss-Prowse, Director of Early Learning and Child Development.

T. LAMB:

Tina Lamb, Ministerial Liaison.

CHAIR:

I just want to mention also if you could please not adjust the chairs and that

there are water coolers on each end right here for your disposal.

I bring the Committee's attention to the minutes that are here from the meeting

of May 2 and I ask for a mover.

L. STOYLES:

So moved.

CHAIR:

MHA Stoyles has moved the minutes.

Is that accepted?

Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

I would ask the Clerk to call the first subhead.

CLERK (Barnes):

Executive Services, 1.1.01 through 1.2.01.

CHAIR:

Shall Executive Services

1.1.01 to 1.2.01 carry?

Minister, do you have any introduction?

T. OSBORNE:

No, I won't bore everybody

with a monologue. I'm sure that everybody would appreciate getting out maybe 10

or 15 minutes earlier, so go ahead.

CHAIR:

All right, thank you.

MHA

Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you, Chair.

Thank

you, Minister and staff.

I have

some general questions as well that I'll weave in and out, but I'll just do this

section first. So 1.1.01, salary increase there in the Minister's Office of

$74,000. Are there new staff?

T. OSBORNE:

You didn't get the raise,

Barry?

B. PETTEN:

I didn't get the raise?

T. OSBORNE:

You didn't get the raise; I

got a big raise.

B. PETTEN:

No, you voted that down. We

were supposed to get one.

G. O'LEARY:

(Inaudible) severance payout for one of our EAs.

B. PETTEN:

Pardon me?

G. O'LEARY:

That's a severance payout.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you.

1.2.01, Salaries again, $91,000?

G. O'LEARY:

Again, Barry, that's our associate deputy, Eldred Barnes. We had to find funding

for that within.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

G. O'LEARY:

And it's partially offset by the fact that we never had an ADM for a few months.

So that's where the $91,000 comes from.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

I just

have some general questions that we ask every year. Can we have a copy of the

briefing binder or notes? Attrition plan – is that still being followed or what

numbers are associated with that?

T. OSBORNE:

Every department has the

attrition plan – Robyn?

R. HAYES:

We met our attrition target last year, and we follow it. Our target was met last

year, so we're compliant with that.

B. PETTEN:

What was your target?

R. HAYES:

Our target was a total of I think it was $36,000 over two years, and we met that

target last year.

B. PETTEN:

How many retirements or

vacancies are not filled in the department? Do you have those numbers, like the

general breakdown of all those numbers?

R. HAYES:

I do, yeah. So retirements the last fiscal year there were four, and we had 19

new hires. Fifteen of those were temporary positions, three were permanent and

one was a contractual position. We currently have 50 vacancies, but with the

passing of this budget we'll be adding 27 new positions to the department so

those are allotted in that 50 that are vacant. We're waiting for those to be

created.

B. PETTEN:

Are they going to be a

result of the merger of the school district?

R. HAYES:

No, the majority of those vacant positions, 22 of those, are resulting from our

new Canada-Wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement, there are 22 associated

with that. We have four associated with student financial services because of

the new Tuition Relief Grant and there is one in K to 12 to respond to the

Technology Career Pathway program.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

And

what about contractual and short-term employees?

R. HAYES:

Contractual and short-term employees, we currently have 4 contractual positions

within the department. Some of those new positions that we will be creating,

there are, I believe, four of those that will be contractual. Those are

federally funded, so any federally funded positions, if they're a

management-level position are automatically contractual because they're tied to

federal funding.

B. PETTEN:

So those other four, are

they executive positions as well?

R. HAYES:

Executive positions?

B. PETTEN:

You said it's four

contractual.

R. HAYES:

Right.

B. PETTEN:

So where are they to in the

department?

R. HAYES:

We have one in my branch; it's a management position. If you're a temporary

manager it's called contractual. There's one of those in our Policy and

Information Management Division. We currently have one in Curriculum and we have

two in Early Learning, which would be tied to federal funding.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Did

your department receive any funds from the contingency fund last year?

T. OSBORNE:

The air purifiers were about

$9 million or $8 million or something – $8 million.

B. PETTEN:

Minister, I know your

department received a lot of money for education from the COVID fund. So did you

receive any funds?

T. OSBORNE:

The federal COVID fund?

B. PETTEN:

Well, I guess both because

there has been both streams of money so I was speaking generally.

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, so the federal fund

would have been under last year's budget.

B. PETTEN:

Right.

T. OSBORNE:

And that covered busing and

guidance and admin and some extra custodial staff within the schools' cleaning

protocols. This year there was no federal – under this fiscal year I don't think

– was there? Well, we received it last year and some of it might have flowed

into this year but it was from the same pot.

Provincially, the COVID contingency is what paid for the air purifiers and

filtration systems in our classrooms this year.

B. PETTEN:

I have a question, too, on

the attrition. I wasn't really clear on the answer on attrition to be honest. So

attrition is continuing on is it? It's going to continue on in future years?

R. HAYES:

Our last attrition target

would have been given to us in 2020-21; it was a two-year attrition target. We

have no new attrition targets in this budget. Any attrition targets we had we

met last year by the abolishment of a position.

B. PETTEN:

So going forward there's no

R. HAYES:

For the department there's

currently no attrition target going forward.

B. PETTEN:

These are some general

questions, Minister.

Amalgamation of the school district into the department, where are we to with

that? What's the latest?

CHAIR:

Minister Osborne.

T. OSBORNE:

So work is progressing.

We're on target. We will see the continuation of the transition between now and

September. In terms of, I guess, the departmental and the district review of

what the transition plan and phased approach, that work has been done. The

transition will continue.

We're

looking at things like teacher payroll, obviously. The IT, the differences in IT

between the district and government, so we'll be working with OCIO in terms of

that, in terms of the infrastructure and maintaining the infrastructure. Some of

that will be going to Transportation and Infrastructure once the transition is

complete, but we've looked at a number of departments and where things belong

once it's transitioned into government. So that process is ongoing.

B. PETTEN:

Will there be many job

losses?

T. OSBORNE:

Not at this stage. We've

indicated that there would be no mass layoffs. There are currently, I think, 500

vacant positions within government. So where there is duplication of services,

every effort will be made to redeploy staff if that is necessary.

We've

had some attrition at the school district. With the word that the district will

be transitioning into the department, people who were able to retire probably

have retired so we've had some staff at the district who have retired and so on.

Those positions are being looked at very, very carefully before they're refilled

to determine whether or not they're needed.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you.

So any

savings that's going to be realized from this merger, I guess, is the plan to

reinvest that money back into classrooms? Is that the plan?

T. OSBORNE:

Yes, that is the plan. So as

you know by this year's budget, we had a significant increase in the Education

budget this year. Part of that is looking forward and knowing that there will be

savings. We've paid it forward essentially and invested it this year. We

anticipate this year somewhere between $1.5 million and $2 million as a result

of the transition in this year's budget. There'll be further savings next year,

but, like I said, we've invested it this year based on knowing that there will

be savings.

B. PETTEN:

Minister, the 70 teachers

hired under the COVID funding, are they getting renewed next year?

T. OSBORNE:

Sorry, I couldn't hear the

question.

B. PETTEN:

There were 70 additional

teachers hired under the COVID funding. Are they getting renewed next year?

T. OSBORNE:

The administration and

guidance counsellors, for example, we've funded that even though it was federal

funding last year, the province picked that up because that funding dried up so

we've maintained those positions, for example, so they will continue.

I think

the number 70 that you're talking about were the substitutes that we gave

contracts to. That process has worked well and we've continued that this year.

Robyn,

do you know of the number that we've put under – has it increased from 70 or –?

R. HAYES:

We did increase it during

the COVID year that we were into, I think, it was 100, but it went back to 70.

T. OSBORNE:

So the 70 is maintained. I

mean, that's worked well, so instead of having a substitute bounce from school

to school to school, there is a substitute who's basically under contract with a

school. That school knows that substitute is there. It makes the job easier for

administrators, for the school itself and for the substitutes.

B. PETTEN:

You mentioned about guidance

counsellors. Are there going to be extra resources added to the schools in the

coming year? Is that in the plan because that seems to be a bit of a problem to

a lot of schools as well?

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah. I mean, we obviously saw the need. So last year with COVID, under the

federal funding, like I said, the additional guidance and admin were funded

federally. This year when that funding evaporated, the province picked up that

so that's now permanent. It's part of the budget. It will be staying there. We

are awaiting the Teacher Allocation Review Process now and that will guide us

into the future.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Extra cleaning supplies and custodians, I mean, hopefully, we're in the downside

of COVID, is that going to continue in September at the same levels or is there

any adjustment plan for that or –?

R. HAYES:

So that extra cleaning and custodian that was measured under the COVID

contingency fund or from the federal restart funding that we received, that

wasn't continued last year. We relied on our current student operations budget

to fund our custodians.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Minister, the CEO of the francophone school board, is there a planned

replacement for that position or any progress in that process?

T. OSBORNE:

In the francophone district, currently, they've got a temporary replacement

they've taken from their existing staff – assigned somebody temporarily. The

francophone district themselves will undertake a search for a permanent CEO and

that has to be signed off by the department when they find a permanent

replacement.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

On that same topic, the Comptroller General was doing an investigation into the

school boards. So is that still continuing even in the absence of the former

CEO?

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah. I had checked last week, actually, on the status and I understand that the

Comptroller General's report is nearing completion and as soon as we get a copy

of that, Barry, I will furnish yourself and Jim with a copy of that as well. But

I anticipate it, maybe even as early as next week.

Today is Friday so when we spoke to them last week they didn't give us an exact

date on when we would have it but we were thinking we could even have it this

week.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

T. OSBORNE:

So I anticipate we'll probably have it next week.

Now, I don't want to put words on the Comptroller General's mouth because they

didn't give us a specific date but I anticipate it any day.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

One more before time wraps up for me.

Air quality testing in the schools since we have the new air purifiers: Has

there been any testing done since these purifiers have been installed in

schools?

T. OSBORNE:

I don't know if there's been

a standardized test. Robin or Greg?

G. O'LEARY:

There's regular air testing, Barry, that goes on every year. We checked in with

the person who's in charge of that at the district. So that has continued to

this period.

B. PETTEN:

Okay. So since the purifiers

have been installed it's continued on?

G. O'LEARY:

Yes.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Madam

Chair, I'll divert over.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has

expired.

MHA

Dinn?

J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Thank

you, folks, for coming to answer the questions in what is a lot more pleasant

lighting than the House of Assembly when the lights are on.

I want

to start off with – and I'll try not to repeat what my colleague said, he's

asked a few question that I was planning – recruitment and retention of

teachers. I'm thinking certainly in the NLESD there is, if I understand, $75,000

that's been allocated to recruiting teachers for the francophone school board.

There's a think tank with nurses to recruit nurses. There's funding to increase

student assistants and the new early childhood educators for the school system.

But what is there in terms of an effort to recruit teachers for the general

shortage. You're well aware of the issue in Menihek in the high school there.

So I'm

just wondering what are the plans to actually recruit teachers and bring them

into the force.

T. OSBORNE:

So I'll speak briefly, I

know my deputy can probably add to that.

The

francophone funding is an agreement with the federal government to recruit for

francophone. I know that there's a shortage of teachers, not only in this

province, nationally and globally there's a shortage of teachers. So while the

francophone is a very specific search because they require French language first

for their educators so it's more challenging for the francophone district in

recruitment.

We've

been working with the dean in the Faculty of Education. In fact, discussions are

School District has carried out their own recruitment efforts, not only in terms

of repatriation of Newfoundland and Labrador individuals who've moved away, but

looking for other individuals.

Greg,

did you want to –

G. O'LEARY:

Yeah, just to give you a

little bit of a breakdown, Mr. Dinn.

First

of all, meetings were held with Memorial University right through the pandemic.

As a result of that, they put on extra cohorts in their programs. So we should

see the benefits of that this coming year. We'll have extra teachers graduating

at this coming year.

We had

a meeting with the NLTA on this matter, they made several suggestions, some of

which we've already incorporated. There's been a meeting with the district

things to try to recruit teachers: CareerBeacon, fairs, all kinds of incentives

in rural areas and things to that effect.

The

timing is good on the question because there is a larger meeting today. What

we've realized through all of those meetings is we need all four bodies to come

and the Department of Education. That meetings is happening this afternoon at 1

o'clock.

addition to all the things that we've already done, we're going to come together

and come up with some long term – so as you know in Menihek we've put some

short-term solutions in place. We brought in some supports and things to that

effect in the short term. We've increased the number of retired teachers who

could substitute. We've brought in the emergency supply, all those things, but I

think at this stage now we're looking for a long-term recruitment plan.

So in

addition to the individual meetings with all those groups, the larger meeting

today will happen and I'll be happy to report to you some of the things that

come out of that.

J. DINN:

Just in follow-up to that,

I'm just wondering, in terms of the government employees, how many fractional

units are there in the other divisions of government whether it's Transportation

– so like you have a 0.25 or a 0.3 or a 0.15. I ask that because in teaching

that's exactly what you're getting are the fractional units. So you're sometimes

advertising for a fractional unit to go in a community, I'll say on the Burin

Peninsula or the Northern Peninsula. The problem with that is you're hardly

going to get a teacher to go up there to work at a 0.25 salary, no real

guarantee of filling in.

So in

terms of that is there any indication, let's say, to eliminate this whole

fractional unit approach to teaching, because I think it impedes the

recruitment?

The

other part there, I don't think in any other department do you have fractional

units. You don't have a 0.25 deputy minister, for example, or a 0.25 program

specialist. You have full-time positions. Yet, in teaching you have that. So I'm

just wondering what's the plan to address that.

T. OSBORNE:

Well, that comes out of the

Teacher Allocation Review and the teacher allocation process. We will be guided

– that process is under way, as you know, and we anticipate receiving a report

from them in the coming months and that allocation process. I won't presume what

is going to come out of that, you know, but we will respect the process and the

findings of the Teacher Allocation Review.

J. DINN:

Okay.

So,

right now, how many people are currently employed in your department as it

stands right now? I guess where I am looking at: I know there is no anticipated

job loses but do you anticipate them changing as the NLESD is integrated into

the department?

T. OSBORNE:

Where there is duplication

of service, we will work to find, I guess, redeployment where there is

duplication. But as I indicated to Barry in a question earlier, we have had some

retirements and attrition at the NLESD. I know they're looking very carefully at

recruitment for positions where there is attrition occurring to determine

whether or not those positions will be necessary as the transition happens and

they come into government.

J. DINN:

Okay.

T. OSBORNE:

But, you know, with 500

vacant positions throughout government, job loses will be at a very minimal, I

would suspect. We've already indicated that there would be no mass layoffs so I

would expect that the impact would be very, very minimal.

J. DINN:

Okay.

This is

just following up from last year, I think the comment was that as we get into –

you mentioned, as we get into the transition process, we would have a better

idea of what we're hoping to achieve. So I'm trying to get a better idea of what

we're hoping to achieve in terms of finding the efficiencies.

Is it

possible to have the figures for the number of teachers currently employed in

the province with a breakdown as to the region? That is one. As well, I wonder

how many deaf educators are there. I'm not talking about necessarily people

versed in sign language but actual deaf educators, like we would have had in the

school for the deaf, who are in the department and in the school system itself.

T. OSBORNE:

We can work to get you those

numbers. I don't think we have them here today.

J. DINN:

Okay. That would be great.

In last

year's Estimates, it was mentioned that there was a legislative review planned

in the department. Has this gone ahead? That was in last year's Estimates.

T. OSBORNE:

Robyn can answer that.

R. HAYES:

So we did have money

budgeted there under Professional Services for a legislative review. What we

chose to do instead, we hired actually a manager of legislative review to work

in the department. That would be the contractual position I mentioned earlier in

the Policy Division. That person is looking at a number of pieces of legislation

including our Schools Act and our Teacher

Training Act currently.

J. DINN:

Okay.

And how

much progress, with regard to the integration of the NLESD into the department,

you mentioned I think it was integration of the payroll system and the financial

system. Is there any work that's left outstanding, that's still a piece to be

done in this integration process? Any major challenges?

T. OSBORNE:

There's a great deal of work

to be done. We've reviewed the org plans for both the district and the

department. I know that there are a number of discussions that have taken place.

better fit with OCIO, for example. Some in terms of teacher payroll would be a

better fit with Finance. So we've looked at what is a best fit in terms of the

delivery of education and what belongs in the department and what is a better

fit in other areas. Building maintenance, for example, would be better dealt

with by Transportation and Infrastructure.

So a

great deal of work has already happened in terms of how the integration will

happen and what fits with what. So the process is well under way and continues.

J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has

expired.

Thank

you, MHA Dinn.

MHA

Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Do you want to go and vote

on this section? I'll start off in the new section, if you want to.

CHAIR:

Mr. Dinn, do you have any

more additional questions on this section?

J. DINN:

With regard to –

CHAIR:

MHA Dinn, so you're staying

on this

section 1.1?

J. DINN:

Yes, I am.

CHAIR:

Okay.

B. PETTEN:

I can keep going, Chair. I

could ask questions all day long, too.

CHAIR:

So do you have questions on

this section?

B. PETTEN:

Yes, I have lots.

CHAIR:

Okay we'll continue on with

MHA Petten.

Keep going.

B. PETTEN:

My glasses, I can't see nothing now.

Anyway –

T. OSBORNE:

Well, Barry, the worst thing about trying to find your glasses is you can't see

them.

B. PETTEN:

I know. I'm getting worse every day, too.

I will continue on with my questions I guess because the

section is pretty

small, but in any event, the Green report recommendations, Minister, has there

been an analysis done within the department on what your plan is with any of

those, all or any of those?

T. OSBORNE:

The Green report, the report on post-secondary review, we have obviously

analyzed all of the recommendations. I have indicated previously in the

Legislature that those are recommendations. It is not direction. So the

recommendations of any of those reviews help guide us in our decisions,

obviously, but there are things that, you know, we look more closely at and

there are items that we fully accepted and items that are not necessarily on the

front burner and whether we get to those or not.

I think Mr. Dinn had asked a question previously in the Legislature about the

principles, for example, out of the Green report. So that is something that we

said wasn't on the front burner at that particular time. It is not on the front

burner today, for example. So we do use those recommendations as a guide and we

analyze the recommendations but not necessarily every recommendation is going to

be implemented.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you.

Minister, what is the status of the curriculum update for K to12, particularly

when it applies to cultural sensitivity?

T. OSBORNE:

So we have – and I will get Brad to speak to this a little further, but

curriculum updates is an ongoing process within the department. It takes a great

deal of time and effort to change curriculum but curriculum update is an ongoing

process.

In terms of cultural sensitivities, there was one textbook where there was an

issue identified. We've identified to educators teaching that particular piece

of curriculum to not use that particular – I think it's two pages within that

piece of curriculum. So they're not going to use that. We've given them guidance

in terms of how to deal with that. That particular piece of curriculum is under

review with the aim

to replacement.

Brad did you want to speak a

little bit to the ongoing process because I know in terms of cultural

sensitivity whether it is our Indigenous communities, we've got an advisory

committee to the department that includes the five Indigenous leaders. In terms

of multicultural issues, we've got a committee that is probably formed now.

Brad can give you an update

on that? But certainly it's under way in terms of multicultural issues and so

on. They will help guide the future curriculum certainly within the province.

Brad.

B. CLARKE:

Yes, the minister is bang on

with that. It normally takes about three years from beginning to fully –

CHAIR:

Excuse me.

You can

take off your mask to speak if you want to. You can take off your mask to speak.

B. CLARKE:

Oh, okay.

Normal

curriculum development process would take about three years. So we have about –

a short time ago, about a year and a half, looked at our model of curriculum

development so that cultural sensitivity and Indigenous history, culture and

language are reflected on all of our curriculum K to 12 so that we have steps in

the process now to ensure things like – that happened in the Social Studies

program, hopefully, won't ever happen again.

We have

several, as the minister points out, committees that are engaged in helping us

determine that, where it best fits. Those committees have a very broad

membership. Also, I guess, I'd like to point out that we've developed a

framework document as well, that outlines the expectations from curriculum

development on a go-forward basis and in our policies.

About a

year ago, we started on a multi-stepped professional learning exercise for the

staff within the Department of Education within programs and services to ensure

that they have the very latest information and can apply that, the latest

knowledge in our policy and curriculum development.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you.

Minister, I guess I'll move to the one nursing school: Has the department done

any analysis on the cost benefits of this?

T. OSBORNE:

It's currently under way. I know we've had discussions with Memorial University

and they are certainly working towards that goal. I think, you know, there are

not only delivery operational efficiencies but eventually fiscal efficiencies in

terms of that. So that work is under way and Memorial are actively engaged in

that process.

B. PETTEN:

I suppose in the same theme,

the one health faculty which was announced recently in the budget for MUN, where

we –

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, both the nursing will

eventually come under health. The health faculty will be under health the same

as the medical school, but Memorial has a closer relationship with education,

obviously, so the work has started. I know Memorial University, as far back as

two years ago, had started talking about a health faculty, you know, a broad

faculty, instead of just the Faculty of Medicine, a health faculty.

understand that they had done a report to Memorial University on one health

faculty and it wasn't a significant report, I think it was five or six pages,

the Whiteside report I believe was the name of it was. Because I know your

researchers are now saying let's put an ATIPP in for the Whiteside report.

B. PETTEN:

Any day.

T. OSBORNE:

So it is the Whiteside

report for your researchers. It is about five or six pages, but it just

indicates that it is a good idea to look towards a faculty of health as opposed

to just a Faculty of Medicine. So, again, eventually that will have a closer

relationship with the Department of Health, but it will be led by Memorial

University, the same as the Faculty of Medicine.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you.

Minister, when can we expect to see MUN appearing before Public Accounts?

T. OSBORNE:

I know that our Finance

Minister is sitting directly behind you. So the question was when do we

anticipate seeing MUN before –

B. PETTEN:

Public Accounts.

T. OSBORNE:

– Estimates Committees? I

think that process is under way for agencies, boards and commissions. I don't

want to speak for the Minister of Finance but it will probably be as early as

next year.

S. COADY:

It's with the House Leaders.

T. OSBORNE:

Oh, so the House Leaders,

okay.

S. COADY:

So the House Leaders are

trying to – that's what I understand – the House Leaders are going to figure out

a process.

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, so the intention has

been –

S. COADY:

So House Leader, figure out a process with your other House Leaders.

T. OSBORNE:

– announced; it will happen.

I guess the decision is not mine to make, but the process has started.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you.

I guess

my colleague will have to talk to me about that. He hasn't told me about that

one yet, but that's fine.

What

about the status of the new law school? Has there been any analysis done within

the department on that? I know MUN seem eager on it, but from your department's

perspective has there been any real analysis done other than the budgetary

issues that come with it?

T. OSBORNE:

I know the president of

Memorial had talked about and looked at a law school for the province. I think

government's position on it is very clear that we don't see the need for a law

school in the province. We've articulated that publicly.

At some

point, if MUN gets autonomy – part of the process with changes to the Memorial

act is ensuring that we have them on a solid footing, so when they eventually

get autonomy, that will be a decision that would be made by them, but we want to

make sure that there's checks and balances.

Currently, if they were to purchase real estate for a law school, government

would have to sign off and agree to that. So we don't want to just simply create

a situation where that government oversight is gone; yet, we're giving a great

deal of provincial funding to Memorial University. So we want to make sure we

get it right in terms of the MUN act.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has

expired.

Still

with Executive Services, MHA Dinn.

J. DINN:

Just following up on the

integration of the school district into the department. It started off that you

had targets, let's say attrition targets that you've met within the department.

Here's my question: Not with attrition, do you have any targets, I guess, or

projections as to what you see as savings, like to the budget line? Nothing to

do necessarily with staff but just like in this integration are you anticipating

savings and do you have that sort of projection of that?

T. OSBORNE:

This year we anticipate the

impact for this year's budget will be somewhere between $1.5 million and $2

million, as a result of the transition. The savings will grow over time as the

transition is fully incorporated into government. So that process has started.

It's a

PowerSchool, Google Classroom and Cayenta. Those are IT functions that are not

necessarily used by government.

J. DINN:

Right.

T. OSBORNE:

So it is not as simple as

saying we're going to integrate the IT

section into government; boom, there it

is, it's done. These processes take a great deal of analysis and whether the

Cayenta system that's being used by the district is the best system or whether

we can change PeopleSoft, for example, within government to incorporate

everything that Cayenta does. So there's still analysis on things like IT that

need to take place.

J. DINN:

And would it be possible to

have a breakdown of where the anticipated savings are? You don't have to do that

now, but like where do you anticipate these savings to come over the next few

years, if that's possible. If that analysis has been done.

T. OSBORNE:

So as I indicated, we know

that it'll be $1.5 million to $2 million this year. But the savings will grow

over time. So in terms of things like IT, the work on whether or not our school

systems are better off with Google Classroom and the district is better off with

Cayenta, those are things that will take a longer period of time.

So the

total savings, it's hard to put a circle around the number and say those are the

total savings. But we've already seen savings this year in the range of $1.5

million to $2 million in this year's budget based on the progress to date. So we

do anticipate significantly higher savings. But we can't give you a specific

number.

J. DINN:

No, no, what I'm looking at

is just over the next – I'm not looking for it now, but an itemized where do we

see the savings, if there's a projection of where do we see where these savings

could occur; not will occur, but could, where you're anticipating.

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah.

J. DINN:

With regards to the

integration, I'll pass this on: school administrators want to know what the

plans are for September. And they're trying to figure out – I'll give you an

example. They're looking at as it affects the hiring process that principals are

engaged in terms of they are part of the ones that will be doing the

interviewing and so on and so forth. Usually that's in collaboration with either

HR or people at the district.

they're trying to find out basically what it will look like. Basically, they've

said to me that we haven't been given any information as to who do we answer to

now. Is it at the district? Is it at the department? Who do we go to in the

hiring process? So is there any clarity for school administrators? Because we're

into May and it's getting up to

one of the busiest times for schools and for administrators.

T. OSBORNE:

I anticipate that the functions of administrators in schools leading into this

September will look very much like they did last September and that is part of,

you know, the transition. We want to do this in a way where we – I mean, we

could potentially get much greater savings but it would have a huge disruption

within the system. So we are doing this in as methodical a way that we can so

that the system itself is not disrupted. So administrators' functions will be

very much the same this Septembers as they were last September. There won't be

any disruption to that.

J. DINN:

Right and they are just looking for: Who do we speak to now as this board? Who

do we speak to when it comes to hiring? They're worried about their function but

they're also concerned as to who offers the guidance now. Is it still the same

people at the district or is it to do with – are they now going to people at the

department for when it comes to the hiring process and how they go about the

hiring? That's what they are looking for some clarity on that.

You may not have an answer for that now but just something that you need to be

aware of. They are concerned as to what is the relationship with the district.

Is it possible to have – you won't have it now, I know, but the number of air

quality tests that were conducted in the schools throughout the year, the actual

number, and what schools they were conducted in? I know you said that there has

been regular testing, but I wouldn't mind having that number as to where and

when.

And also if I remember the specs for the air purifiers, there was a requirement

for filter exchanges in that and cleaning of it, an update on that as to I guess

if there's a budget for that and how many times that has been done now since the

beginning of the school year for those air purifiers?

T. OSBORNE:

We can endeavour to get that for you.

J. DINN:

And how much money has been allocated this year for upgrades to the mechanical

ventilation systems or HVAC systems in the school? What line would that fall

under if it's there?

T. OSBORNE:

Do you have that Robyn?

R. HAYES:

So anything to do with the alterations and improvements and maintenance of the

buildings, that would fall under Transportation and Infrastructure. It is not

actually within the Department of Education's budget.

J. DINN:

Okay.

Is there a plan to increase the number of ESL teachers, itinerants and

specialists to help integrate children of refugee and immigrant families into

the school system and other supports that they need to make sure that they have

the supports they need in the school system?

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah. We've had 30

additional units as a result of increased enrolment, and part of that were the

Afghanistan refugees. We also had the equivalent, because they're spread out, of

30 other resources put into our school system to deal with increased enrolment.

There's been, as a result of the Education Action Plan, I believe, 12, was it,

Much of

what the process that we've undertaken in terms of the Afghanistan refugees will

also apply to Ukrainian refugees. We are anticipating within the next week,

somewhere between 150 and 200 Ukrainian – now I wouldn't call them refugees,

because it's – but Ukrainian newcomers to the province. The individuals are a

little different than the Afghanistan refugees in terms of the status of the

newcomers when they arrive to Newfoundland and Labrador.

So once

they arrive the process will start in terms of the learning system that's within

Association of New Canadians to determine the level of requirements that are

until the welcome process has taken place, the orientation process has taken

place, an assessment of the needs of the individuals, it's difficult to say

today, that process starts really once they land.

J. DINN:

Just with regard to the

changes in education, where does the Federation of School Councils stand in all

this? Will they be dissolved or will they continue, because I'm hearing that the

Federation of School Councils will be dissolved totally.

T. OSBORNE:

No, we won't be dissolving

the Federation of School Councils. I think the relationship between our school

councils and government will be more formalized or more recognized than it is

today.

J. DINN:

So they'll carry on as –?

T. OSBORNE:

Yes.

J. DINN:

Okay, perfect, thank you.

That's

it for me, for that section.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MHA

Dinn, we're going to move on to Corporate Services, is that okay?

J. DINN:

Yes.

CHAIR:

I ask the Clerk to recall

the grouping, please.

CLERK:

Executive Services, 1.1.01 and 1.2.01.

CHAIR:

Shall Executive Services, 1.1.01 to 1.2.01 carry?

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried

On motion, subheads1.1.01 through 1.2.01 carried.

CHAIR:

I ask the Clerk to call the next grouping.

CLERK:

Corporate Services, 2.1.01 and 2.1.02.

CHAIR:

Corporate Services, 2.1.01 to 2.1.02.

MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you, Chair.

Under 2.1.01, a few questions there.

Under Salaries, there's a small fluctuation. It was a little less last year.

It's gone back up. Is there staff leaving or a shortage or – what is the reason

for that?

T. STAMP:

So in Salaries we had savings in '21-'22 and that was due to we didn't have any

co-op students. Normally, we would have a commerce co-op student in the fall and

winter semesters. Due to COVID-related challenges, we decided not to have that

co-op student this year. Also, there was some vacant positions in other areas

for various periods of time.

From budget to budget there was a slight decrease and that was due to new

positions; we had some turnover and the new employees are at lower steps than

the previous incumbents. So our budgets are now a bit lower to accommodate that

lower step level.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

So that would affect Employee Benefits as well. I guess that drop of –

T. STAMP:

The Employee Benefits?

B. PETTEN:

Yeah.

T. STAMP:

In Employee Benefits, that budget basically incorporates our workplace – the

majority of that budget is for WorkplaceNL costs and that was a lot lower than

we had budgeted.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was an additional $130,000 spent or

budgeted this year from last year – an increase.

T. STAMP:

Our increase in that Property, Furnishings and Equipment budget is the budget

for PF and E for the whole entire department. The increase is related to the

federal Canada-wide Early Learning and Child Care Agreement because we

anticipate getting additional staff related to that agreement. There was funding

put in there for the related furnishings and equipment that would be required

for those employees.

B. PETTEN:

Okay. Basically getting set up for them?

T. STAMP:

Yes.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

2.1.02, the Grants and Subsidies, $1.5 million: Can we get a breakdown of where

this money goes or –?

T. STAMP:

Yes. We have it now if you want it now or we can get it. The big part of that

budget is the Murphy Centre, which is $866,000. We have Cultural Connections,

which is $450,000. We also have the Council of Atlantic Ministers of Education

and Training, which is $119,000; the Council of Ministers of Education Canada at

$118,600; the Federation of School Councils at $40,000; and Learning

Disabilities Association at $25,000.

B. PETTEN:

Okay. Thank you very much.

I know it's only a small amount but I'm just curious: What's that Grants and

Subsidies in

section 2.1.01? It's only like $35,000. What would that be?

T. OSBORNE:

That is essentially for if a school is going on a sporting trip or if there's a

need within a school. It's province wide. The school will advise the department

– I can get you some further details on that, Barry.

B. PETTEN:

Okay. I appreciate that.

So I'm just going back to some general questions. That was a short section.

Minister, to your question when we were finishing up the last round there on the

law school and the autonomy at MUN. So, I guess, and ironically we have probably

been disagreeing but agreeing on this topic for quite some time in different

forms, but it jumps out at me when MUN gets this autonomy, what prevents them,

then, from massive expansions and law schools and everything, you know, skating

loops – I won't go down the road of my list of stuff, I will spare you from that

today, but you get where I am going.

So how did this not become a runaway train? It's finally given autonomy and I

get that point but that's the fear because ultimately the students and our

children and grandchildren will be the ones that will possibly have to bear the

brunt if we are kind of giving that autonomy. So, I guess, to you on that one –

(inaudible) agreement

T. OSBORNE:

Absolutely. And that's why I say it's more important to get it right than to get

it fast in terms of the MUN act. So we are looking at what should be in the new

MUN act.

Part of what we will be looking at is accountability agreements, for example,

and I know other universities who have greater autonomy than Memorial have

accountability agreements with their governments a nd

those accountability agreements would have to be met in order to ensure next

year's funding, for example.

those are the type of things we're looking at. What the final picture of that

looks like will be debated on the floor of the Legislature. So it didn't happen

this spring. We anticipated this spring, but like I said it's more important we

get it right and to protect – we have a significant investment of taxpayer money

going into Memorial University so we have an obligation to ensure that we get it

right.

B. PETTEN:

Absolutely. Thanks for that.

So the

footprint expansion freeze, is that still in place this year? Was that continued

on?

T. OSBORNE:

It is, yes.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

I guess

we'll go to a topic that I've had a lot of debate, or not debate, actually, a

lot of conversation with you and your officials in the last while. I know the

issue but update the progress towards $10-a-day daycare. How is that working

out?

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, I get Mary to speak a

little more, but it's well under way.

So $10

a day will start in January. We know, and we knew upfront, going to $25 a day,

which saved families significant money out of pocket, and then going to $15 a

day and going to $10 a day, the more affordable you make early learning, the

more families who want early learning, because there are families who can afford

$15 a day that couldn't afford $40. There will be families who can afford $10 a

day that couldn't afford $15. So that's a family choice, but obviously when we

get to $10 a day compared to what it was two years ago, prior to going to $25 a

day, the demand for spaces.

we're seeing that now where there's additional demand and people are saying that

they're on a wait-list for early learning as a result of the affordability

piece. It's more affordable, so there's more demand. So a month ago or

thereabouts, we announced the steps that we're taking to make early learning

more accessible. So between the College of the North Atlantic, Keyin College and

Academy Canada, we have some 700 seats that are opening to train early learning

educators. That will be a year in some cases, two years in others cases, in

terms of the level and their ability to get into the workforce.

We've

worked with the college. They've got the earn-while-you-learn program, so that

we can actually have individuals working in the early learning setting while

they're actually going to school. They'll spend a day in the centre, a day in

the classroom, a day in the centre, a day in the classroom, that type of thing.

I'm not necessarily saying that's the schedule, but half the time will be

working in a centre, half in the classroom.

We are

expanding the grants to home-based operations that can open immediately, from

$7,500 to $15,000, to make it more attractive for somebody who wants to set up

an early learning centre in their home to be able to do that. You don't need the

same level of training that you do to work in an operation if you've got a

home-based centre. That's a more immediate step.

We've

provided funding to Family and Child Care Connections to promote that now.

They're expanding into Central and into Labrador. They were in Eastern and

Western regions of the province. They've got a focus to expand even further in

those regions as well.

The

grant for operations that opened, we've increased it from $5,000 per new space

to $7,000 per new space created. There are several other increased bursaries and

grants for students to go to school. We're working with IPGS now on other

mechanisms to attract more students into the classrooms. For example, you may

have seen on the evening news, or on the radio stations or even on Metrobus,

advertising early learning as a career. Because with the additional spaces open

for training, the additional grants and bursaries to make it more attractive for

people to train, the wage grid will see wages increase to more accurately

reflect the valuable work that is being done.

This

will be a career where 10 years ago you may have had parents saying to their

high school graduates there's no future in that career. Well, now there is.

There's laddering. The pay is going to be more attractive; it will more

accurately reflect the work.

We are

hoping that all of these measures – they take time but this time next year we'll

have more spaces than we have this time this year. This time in two years, we'll

have more spaces and more ECEs.

Mary,

did you want to add to that?

M. GOSS-PROWSE:

You stole a lot of my

thunder, I have to say.

We have

received significant funding from the federal government to do a lot of

expansion across all of the levels of ECE in the province. As the minister

noted, affordability was one that we already had a vehicle by which we could

make child care more affordable for the families that were accessing it. We did

understand that it would mean there would be an uptake in what the need for

child care would be in terms of the regulated sector. But we do have, as the

minister noted, capacity money available to not-for-profit organizations and

municipalities to start up new child care services. We have a significant

number, over usual years, of those projects that are already in play and a

number that are on the cusp of signing on. That's across the province.

ECE

shortages are unfortunately a reality across Canada, not just here. There is a

significant focus in the federal commitment around increasing the number of

ECEs. As the minister noted, it's going to take a year or two to see those

additional people in the field, because it takes a little time to do the

program.

Similarly to the space creation, it's a bit different than opening a corner

store. When you're opening a child care service, you have to meet various

different pieces of infrastructure need in terms of hiring needs, in terms of

all sorts of different areas where you have to meet requirements. So it's not as

simple as saying we want 25 spaces, we're going to open a door and there they

are. It involves multiple departments and several levels of inspection and

assessment.

Again,

we have a number of projects that are begun and one that's going to be opening

shortly. They just finished their renovations. So we're very hopeful that this

time next year we'll be in a much different place, and by '25-'26, we are hoping

to have met our target for the federal government, which is an additional 6,000

spaces.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

The

Member's time has expired.

MHA

Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Under

2.1.01, Professional Services, it came in over budget last year. I don't know if

that was answered or not. It was budgeted $112,000 and jumped to $156,700. What

was the reason for that?

T. STAMP:

We were over budget due to

additional consulting requirements required for the NLESD integration and for

the Teacher Allocation Review Committee.

J. DINN:

Would you be able to break

that down? So the consulting work for the integration, is there a report from

that consultant or for that process?

T. STAMP:

For a breakdown with regard to cost, for the integration we spent $120,000; for

the Teacher Allocation Review Committee, we spent $36,675.

J. DINN:

And to whom would that have

been paid?

T. STAMP:

We'll get that for you.

J. DINN:

If they issued a report,

would it be possible to have that report as well? Especially on the integration.

I would be interested in that. I would assume that would also have some

projections as to what savings and so on and so forth.

The

Teacher Allocation, $36,000: That was for extra administrative support or …?

T. STAMP:

That was paid for the members of the Teacher Allocation Review Committee that is

currently ongoing.

J. DINN:

Okay, perfect. Thank you for

that.

With

regard to the provincial revenue – by the way, we do have a commitment to get

that report, just make sure, on the integration? We can have access to that,

correct? That report?

didn't hear a commitment one way or the other; otherwise, I guess we – I don't

want to have to go through ATIPP but I would love to see the report.

T. OSBORNE:

We will endeavour to see

what can be released, Jim.

J. DINN:

Okay, I appreciate that.

Thank you very much.

Last

year, we received less provincial revenue than was expected. I think it went

from $80,000 to $50,000 and then it's back up to $80,000. Any reason for that?

T. STAMP:

That revenue budget is for, basically, repayments of prior year expenses, which

can vary significantly from year over year. The budget is based on an overall

average and sometimes it's higher or lower. Repayments of the prior years'

expenses in '21-'22 was lower than we anticipated.

J. DINN:

Perfect.

I'll

just use the rest of my time to go back to a few points I didn't get to make in

the general. With regard to early childhood educators that my colleague for CBS

pointed out, I just want to bring it to your attention. I've been in contact

with the minister and I appreciate your help and, certainly, Ms. Goss-Prowse as

well. There's no easy answer to this. I understand that.

Just so

you're aware, I've had calls from parents right now where they've sought an

extra year of leave from their job because they cannot find child care and

they're being told you either have to resign, we're not going to grant you the

leave – these are teachers, too, by the way – or you're going to have to come

back, one or the other. It's an untenable situation to put someone in and it's

primarily affecting, in this case, women. That's what it's coming down to.

Certainly, I will do my best in trying to coordinate something because I know

it's important. I'm sure we've all either been parents or we have friends and

family who are parents. There's an urgency here and I have to emphasize that.

I'm

assuming then – just a quick question – with regard to the allocation committee,

are you waiting for the report or do they consult with or check in with the

department or with you, Minister, every now and again to find out just how the

progress is going? I'm just wondering is there ongoing consultation or is it

we're going to wait for the report and see what comes out?

T. OSBORNE:

So far I have not met with

the committee. I am available should they choose they want to speak with me, but

we don't oversee the work that they're doing. They are completely independent.

J. DINN:

Okay.

With

regard to vaccinations: How many school employees now, teachers and otherwise,

are fully vaccinated against COVID? I guess I'm interested in teachers, how many

people are unable to return to work because of their vaccination status?

T. OSBORNE:

We can get the number of

individuals that can't return. It's minimal, but we can get that from the NLESD.

My understanding is we are well over 99 per cent of educators and staff that

have been vaccinated. It's a very small number. I think it's probably like 30,

maybe, educators and staff who haven't.

J. DINN:

Okay.

T. OSBORNE:

But it was a very small

number.

J. DINN:

That's in total. Okay,

that's not bad.

Any

update on the progress of the new francophone school? I think we had $2.5

million for site development. I'm assuming though the new arrangement, it's

going into the former School for the Deaf, so any update on how that's

proceeding?

T. OSBORNE:

It's proceeding quite well.

We met with the francophone district this week. I know work is ongoing at that

site to ensure that it's prepared and ready for them come September.

J. DINN:

And any update on the Inuit Bachelor of Educating Program?

T. OSBORNE:

Marc, did you have anything on that?

M. BUDGELL:

No, I will get that information for you.

J. DINN:

Thank you very much.

I have just one question – and this has been brought to my attention with

regards to the allocation committee. There was a concern and I will say here,

that the committee members really the lack of current teaching experience that

many have been out of the system, it would be like – I would say I would have

more current experience but I don't know if you would want me on the committee.

I think you need some people who have been – even like your deputy minister who

has been in the classroom recently. I think it's worthwhile to have people like

that there. That's a concern that has been expressed. Not taking anything away

from the professionalism, but I can tell you that the school system has changed

in the time I was a teacher and I would say it has changed drastically since the

time I left as well. But that's just a comment. I'm looking forward to that

report and I'm hoping there will be further discussion on it.

One last question though with regards to the 35 schools that are now before the

court, I think, when it comes to the possibility of – that they could be up for

sale in the Mount Cashel sex abuse trial. Are there any contingency plans in

place should it be decided that these schools must be – they are now on the

block for part of this compensation? Is there any contingency plan by the

department or the government to deal with this or to purchase them? I'm not

asking for a comment on the case but like a contingency plan.

T. OSBORNE:

So I respect your questions. As detailed as I can say but as brief as I should

be because we have been advised by Justice and Public Safety that, you know,

this is an ongoing case and anything can have an impact. So I would just say

yes.

J. DINN:

Okay. That's good.

I just want to make sure that we are not thrown into total chaos at the end of

it.

Perfect. Thank you.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

If we can move to

section 3, I've got nothing further on this one. I'm good to

move to the next section.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Are you okay with that, MHA Dinn? We move to the next section?

J. DINN:

Yes.

CHAIR:

All right. I ask the Clerk to recall the grouping.

CLERK:

Corporate Services, 2.1.01 and 2.1.02.

CHAIR:

Shall Corporate Services, 2.1.01 to 2.1.02 carry?

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

On motion, subheads 2.1.01 through 2.1.02 carried.

CHAIR:

I ask the Clerk to call the next group.

CLERK:

Kindergarten to Grade 12

Education and Early Childhood Development, 3.1.01 to 3.6.01 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Kindergarten to Grade 12

Education and Early Childhood Development, 3.1.01 to 3.6.01 inclusive.

MHA

Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you, Chair.

Under

3.1.01, under Grants and Subsidies, Regular Teachers we see a fluctuation last

year. It went up to $497 million, now we're back down to $473 million. So I

guess why the additional $29 million last year and it's only an additional $5

million this year?

R. HAYES:

So the $29.5 million is made up of salary increases through collective

bargaining that were added into the budget this year. That was a significant

portion there. Some of the COVID-related costs for the guidance and the admin,

the additional resources that were added in as part of the federal funding, that

accounted for April, May and June of the previous school year were also added

into the budget during the fiscal year.

B. PETTEN:

Yes, so I'm clear, the

Employee Benefits, there was only a $1.3-million increase.

R. HAYES:

Yes, that's right. That would be a lower amount. That would also be related to

the salary increases and the employee benefits associated with those additional

positions that were added in. So it's a percentage of that increase.

B. PETTEN:

Right. No, you'd think that

would be more than $1.3 million.

The

provincial revenue piece there, that went to a million dollars. I'm going to try

to answer my own question now. Is that to do with COVID funding as well or –?

R. HAYES:

No, it is federal funding related to what we refer to as Jordan's Principle. So

the federal government provides funding to the school district for resources

that are there for Indigenous students, then the district then provides that

funding back to the department as we pay for the teaching units. The revenue you

see there in the revised is a timing issue related to the previous school year,

which would have been the previous fiscal year, sorry.

B. PETTEN:

Under 3.1.02, School

Operations, Purchased Services, there's an additional expenditure last year of

nearly $600,000?

R. HAYES:

That's related to our insurance premiums. It's an increase in our insurance

premiums for the schools.

B. PETTEN:

So it appears insurance

premiums went up across the board, because I had Estimates last night and

insurance premiums were the cause of a lot of extra expenses. I'll tell you like

I told Minister Loveless, you need to start capping insurance. Among gas prices,

insurance should go on the list, too. Minister Coady I should say that to.

Grants

and Subsidies, why is there approximately $26 million last year under Operating

Grants?

R. HAYES:

So that is made up of the

following: about $13.2 million was related to the Chromebook purchase. Some of

those were delivered in this fiscal year, so we had the expense in this fiscal

year; $7.9 million are for those air purifiers the minister mentioned earlier.

There's $2.15 million related to salary increases. Those would be the collective

bargaining salary increases. And a little over $2 million is related to the

April, May and June COVID funding – that part of the school year – that's

related to the federal restart funding, for the additional resources we put in

place.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Student

Assistants funding, that went up to $26 million, nearly $27 million; now we're

back down to less than $25 million. Have there been any reductions in student

assistants or – why the reduction?

R. HAYES:

So what happened in the

fiscal year '21-'22, is there was a 27th pay period for teachers and student

assistants, so you're seeing an increase there of funding to accommodate that.

There were also salary increases related to collective bargaining with some

retro amounts in there. That was also put in there. There was also, again, that

COVID money that related to April, May and June, as well as additional student

assistants' hours that we put in because of increased enrolment.

B. PETTEN:

Perfect.

Transportation of School Children, it looks like the numbers have dropped back.

Have there been enhancements of any – I'm thinking that budget should be

increased more than anything else, but it seems to be pretty flattened, and it's

$3 million less than what was spent last year, nearly probably $4 million.

What's

the plan there? Are there enhancements removed or is there any explanation for

that? That's a bigger issue, too, of course.

T. OSBORNE:

There is a little bit of a

difference, but it relates to the federal funding for COVID, last year's. So if

you look at the budget last year versus the budget this year, we're up from $57

million to $58 million.

B. PETTEN:

There's been a lot of talk,

too – I talked to you about this – the age of school buses. There were new

contracts. A lot of contractors actually had issues with some of the timelines

with getting buses. I suppose this is more of a general question, but that issue

is out there and, I mean, I think we spoke about a couple of examples of school

bus operators were kind of finding a pinch. They had to get – the age of the

school bus. We expanded it a little bit for the COVID years when the rush was on

for extra busing, but then when things started settling back, when the contracts

were changed, they had to get buses under a certain age, and they just weren't

available in some cases. People were struggling to get the buses. Is that an

issue that the department has done anything with?

I know that most of the contracts the district probably has in place now, I

believe they tried to align the expiry date of the contracts more across the

board and fluctuation in expiry dates and what have you. But this issue with

availability and the age of school buses is still an issue, I guess, it just

dies down when contracts get in place and operators get moved. It will raise its

head again, obviously, when the next renewal comes up.

I know it is a bigger issue, probably, than the department, but that is an

issue. Is that something that any of your officials have looked into or probably

addressing?

T. OSBORNE:

It is. The issue has been lessened to a large degree by the fact that during the

additional buses that were required for COVID, we increased the allowable age of

the bus from 12 years, I believe it was, to 14.

Some of the buses that were parked because they reached 12 years old, some of

the contractors were able to use them. And even the bus that was parked the year

prior because it was 12 years old, we allowed buses up to 14 years of age. So

that alleviated a lot of those pressures. As long as they were inspected and met

safety requirements.

So there were additional buses purchased, but a large number of the buses that

were used had an extended life period as well.

B. PETTEN:

So is the age limit 14, or has it gone back to 12 now?

T. OSBORNE:

It is now, yes.

B. PETTEN:

It is gone back to 12?

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

The Revenue - Federal piece there, it looks like $1.6 million came in last year

and it's not in the budget.

R. HAYES:

So in January we received a letter from the federal government. They had a Safe

Return to Class Fund established with regard to air purification systems. We

were able to apply based on the funding we had spent on those air purification

systems – the $7.9 million – and we were able to recoup some of that back from

the federal government.

B. PETTEN:

Okay. Perfect. Thank you.

Under 3.1.04, under Supplies, there is an extra $400,000 budgeted this year.

Where is that going to, specifically?

R. HAYES:

So that $396,000 is additional resources, which are student laptops for our

Technology Career Pathway program.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, perfect.

3.2.01,

under Salaries, I guess it is not a big amount but there is a decrease last year

and it has gone back up again this year – well, it's up this year to probably

about $150,000. Again, was that a vacant position or …?

G. O'LEARY:

That was the addition of a position for the Technology Career Pathway. Also

there was a 27 pay period for seconded teachers.

B. PETTEN:

Is that a permanent

position?

G. O'LEARY:

Well, the intentionality would be for that program to continue.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

Transportation and Communications, last year was $271,000 budgeted but only

$59,000 spent. So I guess my question would be, why are we budgeting $130,000

this year? Is there anticipation to …?

G. O'LEARY:

That was just less travel due to COVID restrictions. We expect that to come back

up somewhere near normal.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

G. O'LEARY:

There are more options for virtual, too.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, that answers another –

I was going to add that in.

Professional Services, an extra $110,000 spent last year. Now it is down to

$27,000 this year from –

G. O'LEARY:

Those are pressures due to a digital curriculum platform project that we're

involved with. I'll turn it over to Brad to speak a little bit more to that

program.

B. CLARKE:

This really connects well with what I mentioned the last time when we talked

about the typical three-year window of curriculum development. We have been

exploring for quite some time to engage in technology to enhance our abilities

and our abilities that have timely feedback within the curriculum so that these

changes don't take so long, it is more multimedia, that the curriculum is

expressed to teachers in a much more efficient way. Much more helpful rather

than be limited by paper and pencil, and that project is about to get under way.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has

expired.

MHA

Petten – MHA Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

CHAIR:

You are welcome.

J. DINN:

It is a long day already.

CHAIR:

It has been a long couple of

weeks.

J. DINN:

Were we supposed to break at

10:15?

CHAIR:

We can, if –

J. DINN:

No, I'm willing to go on,

but I know that's what you had said before and I'll start –

CHAIR:

Does everyone want a

10-minute break?

T. OSBORNE:

I'm anxious to hear what

Jim's questions are; I'm happy.

J. DINN:

I'm good, too.

T. OSBORNE:

I'm open, though, if people

need a break.

J. DINN:

Yeah, that's good. I'll

start in after that. I'm anxious to just ask my questions, too.

CHAIR:

Okay, we'll take a quick 10

minutes.

Recess

CHAIR:

Okay, are we ready to go

again?

MHA

Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

I'll

forewarn you that any of these questions I'm asking will come up on a test later

on. Usually that test is Question Period.

T. OSBORNE:

Is it multiple choice?

J. DINN:

You know what. We can do

that. But that limits your ability to respond to me then.

Okay, a

few questions. This is the area where I have a lot of questions that I do want

answered.

I'll

start with the Substitute Teachers spending in 3.1.01 for Professional

Development; it came in under budget last year. I'm going to preface it with

this as well: A few schools had said that one of the things that they had –

their PL, PD substitute days, they had to roll them back or give them back to

the district. They had to use them by March 3 or lose them, so they couldn't

have any further PL or PD after that.

I'm

just wondering is that just for savings? Was there a reason for that? I know

you're not the district, but at the same time I'm assuming there's an

integration here. In some schools that's like 60 days, works out to about

$18,000 in savings. I'm just wondering where that directive came from, because

you can see here that the Substitute Teacher professional leave days have

dropped, the budget there dropped significantly.

T. OSBORNE:

That would have been a

decision of the district. We didn't provide direction in the department on that,

but I mean we can certainly ask the question for you.

J. DINN:

I wouldn't mind finding out

just because you can see here it's dropped – as to what was the rationale there,

especially if the directive is going out to schools to turn these back.

With

regard to the 1.6-kilometre busing policy, has there been any consideration

given to revising that policy? I know there was something asked similar to that

earlier from my colleague from CBS.

T. OSBORNE:

Madam Chair, I think while

we were gone on break, the Member for St. John's Centre must have taken a

question off the desk.

No, at

this stage, there's been no discussion on changing the 1.6. It stands as it is

at the moment.

J. DINN:

Has there been any talk or

consideration to maybe pilot with Metrobus for busing of students within the

city? I brought this up last year. Even like having a GPS system where the

pickups could be in the city, especially where the pickups could be plotted in

the bus, the bus takes it – the Metrobus itself.

Has

there been any talk about that? Certainly, when I was going to school – and

you're of my vintage – there were no yellow buses in the city as such; it was

either walk or Metrobus. But I'm just wondering since we do have a public

transit system, of using that, of maybe discussions with them as to how we can

use them for student busing within the city.

T. OSBORNE:

No, you're right. I remember

getting dropped to school every morning and walking about three kilometres home

every afternoon.

J. DINN:

Oh, you were in the wealthy

section. I walked both ways uphill.

T. OSBORNE:

The concept of Metrobus in

the city has been looked at and considered. At some point it may become a

reality, Jim, I don't know, but I mean there are liability concerns. Once a

student steps on the bus, from the moment they step on the bus to the moment

they step off the bus to return home, they're sort of in the care and custody of

the school district. That's not the same if they step on a Metrobus. There are

some concerns and at which point are they picked up and dropped off.

It has

been looked at. There probably would be savings. Whether or not the school

community and parents would all be in favour, there's a lot to be considered.

J. DINN:

Okay.

You

could have it so that there's a school district employee on the bus who is there

to supervise as such. That's easy enough. Anyway, at least I'm happy that

there's some consideration of it and some discussion.

With

regard to the SmartFind system that's being brought in as a way for getting

substitutes, why was it brought in now and not wait until next year, once we

sort of have a fresh year and hopefully COVID is less in place. I can tell you

that the issue is causing a lot of consternation from administrators who can

monitor the system. But this is a busy time of the year; we're still coming out

of COVID. It's also disqualifying certain teachers that schools relied on. They

can no longer call because they don't check all the boxes, but that schools

could rely on.

They're

also finding there's concern that teachers, if they're living next to the school

and they turn down, let's say, two call-ins from schools that are an hour away,

they're bumped off and that school next door that might need them can't call

them in. It's creating those situations.

Also,

for a teacher who is in for three days and then I can come in for a fourth day,

but because of the SmartFind system, after three days they're bumped up to the

full level of pay.

What

we're finding is that teachers in this system, they aren't.

They are actually losing pay, I guess, for lack of a better word. While it is up

to the principal to go in and monitor that, that is adding – so I guess there

are a lot of bugs to this that have to be worked out. It would have been better

to wait until September to do this, or paused it right now even for that matter.

G. O'LEARY:

Mr. Dinn, the reason it was brought in is to save time for administrators and,

as I know you can appreciate, for principals and vice-principals who are making

many calls in the morning. It was piloted on the Burin Peninsula and had great

success.

I will agree that in terms of a teacher who goes to the same school multiple

days, that is something that does need to be looked at in terms of just the

efficiency of that and keeping the continuity of learning with children. But

overall, it was brought in to ease pressure off administrators.

J. DINN:

I guess right now for some schools they just started up recently and, as they

said, it would probably work but it is just coming at the wrong time of the year

for them. As long as we are looking at that there are bugs and these bugs can be

worked out or these deficiencies – for lack of a better word – but I would agree

with you. Yes, I understand the concept and it is supposed to work.

G. O'LEARY:

Any new system will have a few bugs –

J. DINN:

And I think that is just it. It would have been better in September and just

something to keep in mind.

G. O'LEARY:

But the pressure on COVID was so great now is why it was brought in now.

J. DINN:

Yeah, exactly.

This has to do with the Chromebooks – and I think there is some mention of it

here. I am looking under School Operations on the technology piece. So there has

been an issue now that, basically, Chromebook devices in the schools have

expired – that they are no longer supported by the network in the school and

that they can no longer be used. So here is basically what this means. I will

give you a couple of schools in the next year that they are going to have to

retire and get rid of 100 Chromebooks or iPads or whatever it is that were using

for the students that they have to replace.

For one school, you are looking at 82 – that results in a cost in over $22,000

to replace them. I guess, where I am looking, what is the plan to help schools

now that these devices are now gone, you can't use them anymore, they are no

longer supported by the system – they still operate; they work perfectly fine.

What is the plan then to help schools replace these? Because that is a

significant chunk of change. In many cases, they raise this using their own

fundraising efforts. I am just wondering what the plan is here to help school

with that. Or if there is a (inaudible) so you can extend the life. The machines

still work.

And then, I'll add to this

one, another complication, you've just brought in and spent $20 million or $30

million on Chromebooks for the school system for students. So that is going to

be a problem that is coming your way; again, I am just wondering what the

solution is or the replacement is.

T. OSBORNE:

I mean if the devices are

working and perfectly functional, I'd rather see that they were extended. It

would be a better use of resources and more cost effective. That is something

that we will certainly look at.

J. DINN:

Okay. Just be aware that and I'll have a couple of follow-up questions; I'll

wait until my next turn.

CHAIR:

Okay. The Member's time has

expired.

MHA

Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you, Chair.

I got a

few more questions on this section. I'm going to flip to the Library Resources

Board, 3.6.01. There is a $317,000 increase in the Grants and Subsidies from

last year's budgeted amount.

R. HAYES:

So you're talking about from budget to budget, that increase, the $317,000?

B. PETTEN:

Yes.

R. HAYES:

That relates to that negotiated salary increases per collective bargaining.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, that is

straightforward.

Early

Learning and Child Development, 3.5.01. Salaries, $6.5 million as oppose to $4.9

million. What is this increase a result of?

R. HAYES:

So at the beginning of the session I mentioned a number of new positions we had

related to the Canada-Wide Early Learning Child Care Agreement and that is what

accounts for that increase, those 22 additional positions we have added.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thanks.

Transportation and Communications was only $125,000 last year, but we're back up

to $432,000. I'm assuming the drop would have been a result of COVID, correct?

R. HAYES:

Correct, yes.

B. PETTEN:

So $432,000 is still

$200,000 more than what was budgeted last year. I guess what I am asking is

$432,000, is that the historic kind of budget that has been in for

Transportation and Communications there pre-COVID, I guess, is what I am asking,

roughly.

R. HAYES:

It would be largely related to that Canada-wide agreement and all the

enhancements that there are under that and the additional staff that we have

hired that will also be required to travel. As we grow spaces, additional travel

that will be required. I would hand it off to Mary Goss-Prowse to see if there

is anything she would like to add there with regard to that.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

M. GOSS-PROWSE:

Yes, it would be related, predominantly – don't quote me – but I think it's

about 18 of those positions are going to be at the regional level. They would be

the people that would be going out to inspect child care to help people start

child care. So they physically have to go and visit sites and in their

monitoring role as inspectors as well they're constantly travelling. It was

significantly reduced over the last couple of years because of COVID. We didn't

visit centres during many of the restricted periods, because introducing another

adult that isn't part of the cohort in the building wasn't – we did a lot more

virtual visiting, et cetera.

But

it's not ideal when you're talking about looking at licensing adherence. So you

want to be able to get back out there again. So in anticipation of the

additional staff, as well as the regular staff doing more travel this year.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you.

Professional Services was a $3 million increase in 3.5.01.

M. GOSS-PROWSE:

Again, that's also tied predominantly to the Canada-wide agreement. We have

significant funding under the federal agreement to do work around areas where we

would need to hire a consultant to do some work for us, that kind of thing. So

there is significant money there to do that.

B. PETTEN:

So this big increase in

federal revenue, $85 million, is that that money? Is that what we're looking at?

Okay.

Allowances and Assistance, to begin it was $9 million less, but it's gone back

up to $27 million this year. So why those drops? I think it happened the year

before as well.

M. GOSS-PROWSE:

Again, it's a lot of this is related to the Canada-wide agreement, for the

increases, for sure. I'm just going to check my notes here.

B. PETTEN:

But it's a decrease, right?

M. GOSS-PROWSE:

Well, what happened when we went from, say, the $25 to $15 and we're going to be

going to $10 in January – Allowances and Assistance covers our child care

subsidy program. So while we may have more people applying for that program, the

amount we're spending as government under that program is actually lowered,

because we're paying the $15-a-day or the $25-a-day, as opposed to what we used

to which was up to $44 a day.

That

one is actually a little lowered because of that expense, but if you look at the

Grants and Subsidies, which is in the next line, there's a significant increase

and that's because we're picking up a lot more operational costs for centres

under the Operating Grant to lower those fees for parents. So between the two,

one is going up significantly and the other one is going down a little bit.

Under

Allowances and Assistance as well, we also have increases coming in the

bursaries and grants in order to do the early childhood education program and

with the additional seats we're anticipating that that budget will be up as

well.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you.

I guess

back to the curriculum review, it's a three-year process. When was the last one

done prior to that? The ongoing review now, so when would the last curriculum

review happened?

T. OSBORNE:

It's ongoing.

B. PETTEN:

Right.

T. OSBORNE:

Brad can speak to this, but

every single year there's curriculum review taking place. We've got literally

hundreds of textbooks throughout the province so you wouldn't leave them all –

as Brad has said earlier, a single textbook can be up to three years to review

and implement a new piece of curriculum. It's an ongoing process. They just kind

of roll through the different curriculum.

Brad,

did you want to add to that?

B. CLARKE:

Yes, curriculum development

in the province is cyclic. So very dynamic. As every year, every curriculum is

what we call monitored and we get some very early statistics and feedback on the

curriculum. That may trigger a full evaluation, which then may trigger the next

steps of a renewal, those sorts of things. That's an ongoing thing that we do

every year.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you.

I have

a couple of minutes left and I'm probably going to take longer than that on this

issue. But I guess early childhood I'm focused a lot on that one because I think

that's a big issue out there I think throughout the province. I know it's in my

district but it's right across the board. I've spoke to you, Minister, about

this, this week past and probably will have further discussion.

I guess

with all this funding and the new changes coming with the early childhood

programs and subsidized and $10-a-day daycare, which is all good, there's a

problem with – I see a problem with the system that you have a couple of big

operators, and one of them happens to be in my district actually, they're

changing. It's more attractive to have the younger children in their daycares

and they're cutting out the afterschool program. In essence, they're doing that,

they're forcing parents in my district, and I have a growing district,

obviously, they're going to private enterprise now who are not subsidized and

they're doubling and tripling their costs. One lady today said the burden is

almost making her wonder is it worth working.

So from

a business model, more power to the business owner if it's attractive to go to

younger groups, I guess, why not. I don't like the way it's been dealt with and

handled and communicated to the parents. I mean, it's business. My problem is

we, as a province and the government department, are subsidizing them. You said

earlier accountability agreements with the MUN act, and I highlighted it the

minute you said it. I guess that's what I'm looking for.

You've

heard me in this House many times: public money is public money. There needs to

be a responsibility whether you work for the government, it's public money, you

have a job to do. If you're getting public funds – and I know it's a lot of

money because I've dealt with a lot of daycare operators in my district, and

Mary would know. It's a substantial amount of money, I mean, without the

Operating Grants those places would not be probably where they are today. But

there's no accountability. I think that's a glaring – and it's not no one's

fault, but it's an issue I think needs to be addressed because this is not going

to go away.

So we

have situations throughout the province where we have areas in rural and

Labrador that are looking for child care spaces, people are wondering what to

do. There's a lack of – and you have the growth areas in the metro region here

where it's like a pot of gold to a lot of those places and they're picking and

choosing how they're going to make the most money. At the end of the day, you

know who suffers, but at the end it's public money.

So I

guess there's probably a lot in that comment that I'm saying, but I think you

all know where I'm – by the head nod I think you know where I'm going with it.

So I think it's a big issue. It's probably a bigger issue than what we realize

it is and it's growing. It's becoming a bigger issue.

It's

something that we can debate probably a lot longer than today, but I think it's

an issue that needs to be addressed and it's ongoing. I don't know if you have

anything to share about that.

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, absolutely. I hear

you. I mean, over the next six or 12 months the issue is bigger than it will be

12 months from now or 24 months from now, as we get more and more operators and

there's more choice for families in terms of where they can get early learning

and child care for their children.

Right

now, the demand far outweighs the supply, but that will turn as we get more

operators open and more ECEs into the system. What's a bigger problem today will

become a much less or lesser problem a year and two years and three years from

now.

But one

of the things – and Mary can expand on this – that we are looking at is as

contracts are renewed, especially as we get into $10 a day and the government

subsidy is even higher, based on the family contribution of $10 a day per child,

is what is reflected in the contract to give some level of protection, I guess,

if a family puts their child with an operation that they just don't – the

business owner just doesn't change the focus of the age group that they're

taking in and leaves the family left high and dry.

Like I

said, two years, three years from now, when the supply is much greater than it

is today, it will be less of an issue.

Mary,

did you want to speak to that a little?

M. GOSS-PROWSE:

Yes, I just wanted to

clarify, it's not that there's no accountability. There is within the contract.

They need to give us a set of audited statements at the end of the year. We need

to see that they haven't charged parents for things they shouldn't. So we do

have checks and balances in for what we're giving. What isn't there right now is

a requirement, like the minister said, to not change their business plan during

the year, let's say.

Where

we are moving to $10 a day and we are going to be instituting the wage grid

that's being developed into the Operating Grant so that the wages within child

care will be higher. Right now, we pay a significant supplement directly to ECEs

and that will work its way into the Operating Grant program so that it becomes

part of their wages, which will also be a benefit to those ECEs who are making

$17 or $18 an hour now, they'll be making $26, $27, $28 an hour when that's

rolled into their wage.

But as

with anything else, as those number go up, we are going to be making sure that

there's significant changes in the policies around the Operating Grant and we're

likely – that's part of when you mentioned about the professional services

piece, that would be one of the contractors that we'd be looking at to try and

take a look at that broader based funding, because now we will be funding a

significant portion of those centres' revenues,

whereas, a couple of years ago

we were maybe at 40 or 50 per cent of their revenues. Now we're heading into

that 70 per cent range.

It's

absolutely on our radar, but with so many changes so quick in this past year, we

felt it needed a bigger review and we also felt we need to go back to the

stakeholders and talk to the organizations around child care, talk to ECEs, et

cetera, and get a broader sense of the changes that need to be made.

So when

we go to $10 a day you will see a significant difference. But, right now, many

of these are under current contracts and it would be a very difficult to go back

and change them at this point.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you very much.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has

expired.

MHA

Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Just to pick up where I left off with regard to technology: Would it be

possible, if you can, with the district to find out just how many devices are

expiring. For schools, it's up to around 100, so I would like to get an idea and

where we're going to go to resolve that problem. That also applies to SMART

Boards that are going to have to be replaced as well.

Also, following up on that: infrastructure – and I'm talking about bandwidth in

this case. As I understand, new schools are usually – when they're being built

and the line coming in – at 250 megabytes per second download. Existing schools,

from what I gather, a lot of them, you have 100 megabytes per second, so it's a

lot slower coming in. That means that for students and teachers in the school

who might be using it, it will cap out; people will be booted off.

My question is, for the existing schools and where this kind of technology is so

important now, so integrated into the learning, what is the plan or in the

budget to upgrade the older schools up to the standard of the newer schools?

Have there been any discussions around that?

T. OSBORNE:

That's an excellent question. I know there are multiple departments involved in

districts. We also have other departments that are involved with increasing

bandwidth throughout the province. Government has been actively looking at

increasing bandwidth in areas where it needs to be increased. I think there's

been some public announcements on that just recently.

The federal government are involved with funding for schools in particular

where, when the school was constructed, the requirements were considerably less

equipment within the schools to help increase the signal for devices that are

being used and in communities. So the districts have been doing a good job with

that when issues are identified, putting devices within the schools to increase

the signal in the school.

Robyn, you probably have some idea of the funding that has been put into that

but …

R. HAYES:

So that would be included in the School Operations budget,

the operating grant that we

do give to the school districts each year. The minister is correct, the district

does provide those – I can't remember the name of the piece of equipment, but

they do have devices in the schools that do increase the bandwidth. I really

don't know the name of it.

J. DINN:

No and I might have a name

here. But I guess what I am going for, Minister, is that even within the city

there are older schools and there are the newer ones that are built, which are

going to be up to spec. But in some of the smaller schools, even here within the

city, the pipe coming in is too small; it's choking what they need in the

schools. The technology has increased in school without the necessary

infrastructure coming in. so that is something that has to be addressed for the

older schools.

Just go

back, one or two things here I wanted to follow up on. With the almost $2.4

million in substitute teacher savings, where would that money have gone? Would

that have just gone into paying off debt or would it have been redirected

somewhere else? It was a budgeted amount for over $5 million; there is only

$3.08 million. Is that just savings or is that paying – I'm just trying to get

an idea of where that would go. Would that be redirected toward other

programming?

R. HAYES:

So that Substitute Teachers - Professional Development, would have just went

into the regular substitute budget, which there was a significant increase in

substitute time during the year.

J. DINN:

Okay. So that's where it is.

I just

wanted to also, with regard to the purchase order process – and I want to give

you this as an example because this is widespread. You have to find some way to

streamline this as you're bringing it to the department. Here is the situation:

In this case, they are looking at bringing in the Aruba drops for the

networking. I don't know if that's the one you're talking about there, Robyn,

but it's the wireless network points needed for Chromebooks to be used.

In this

school they put in a $6,000 order before the fiscal year ended, but because of

COVID it wasn't received in hand to be qualified – it was disqualified. So that

$6,000 from the previous fiscal year is lost because use it or lose it, that

kind of approach.

When

they went to apply for – it was going to cost $12,000. Now, that $12,000 is

going to have to come out of their budget; they're going to have to figure that

out from their own school supplies. So in many ways,

whereas they were told,

well, you can't have – COVID just delayed the process, no fault of the schools,

but as a result of that they lost out on the funding.

The

comment was made not by more than one school administrator: we're trying to get

this stuff in. We're dealing with issues in the school and there's absolutely no

leeway, it's just hard bureaucratic ends. Somewhere along the line it's

disadvantaging schools. I know you don't have an answer to this but I would like

this, if we're going to integrate this into the school system – and Mr. O'Leary,

as an administrator, really knows what I'm talking about here. That's got to be

addressed, as simple as that. There has to be some leeway given so schools are

not disadvantaged and they don't have to come up with the funding themselves.

The

other one has to do with the SmartFind and you need to be aware of this. The

teacher who – I won't go into all the details; I'll make you aware of it after.

It penalizes teachers in some ways. Again, there seems to be no willingness on

the part of, in this case, the district, to make allowances, but I'll bring that

up after this.

Moving

on then, the AG's most recent annual report noted that the NLESD did not fully

implement two recommendations made to it in 2018 regarding its management and

procurement practices. What work has been done since the release of the report

in January of this year to implement those recommendations?

T. OSBORNE:

I know that based on the

report – and COVID sounds like the excuse for everything, but I mean COVID did

delay some of the progress that the NLESD was undertaking – there was much

progress made in implementing the recommendations. But in speaking with Tony

Stack and others at the district, I understand that progress is well under way.

I do anticipate that the recommendations of the Auditor General's report, that

further progress will be made and those recommendations will be fulfilled.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Any

update on the activities and work done by the Indigenous Education Advisory

Committee?

T. OSBORNE:

Brad?

B. CLARKE:

They are still a very active group. Completed Indigenous local course policy. We

have, I guess I'll call it, a final draft of the Indigenous education framework

document that's all been vetted through them. And we are now working on that

curriculum input as part of the cycle, how we ensure that Indigenous culture,

history and language are incorporated across kindergarten to Grade 12.

They

actually have their next meeting very soon, but we hope to enter discussions

whereby we can bring some hands-on, practical engagement from Indigenous

communities and knowledge keepers into all the schools of the province.

J. DINN:

Thank you very much.

With

regard to French language programs, why do we only receive a fraction of the

federal revenue we were expecting last year? That's 3.2.02.

B. CLARKE:

Mr. Dinn, that's more of an administrative issue. We had a very long-standing

employee whose job was the Federal-Provincial Official Languages Agreement

administrator. And very unfortunately she fell ill for many months, tried to

continue, sort of fell behind on the file a bit. We actioned a plan to sort of

catch up because that, unfortunately, individual had to retire.

I'm

happy to report that as of three days ago, we do have the necessary documents

ready now. So we'll have that rectified very quickly and we have put into play

sort of expanding the knowledge base of that process within the division so that

hopefully that'll never happen again.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

B. CLARKE:

I just would like to point out that of course – I didn't say this – we did

secure every dime that we were eligible for. The federal agreement understood

our circumstance and said we'll hold it until you get the reports in. So there's

no net loss of any of it.

J. DINN:

Good.

CHAIR:

Okay. The Member's time has

expired.

MHA

Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Are we done this

section 3?

CHAIR:

We're still in

section

3.1.01.

B. PETTEN:

Does Mr. Dinn have any more

questions in that

section or we can move to

section 4?

CHAIR:

Do you have any more

questions?

J. DINN:

I can quickly go through them.

CHAIR:

He does.

B. PETTEN:

Well, I'll ask some general.

J. DINN:

Yeah, go for it.

CHAIR:

Okay, MHA Petten.

B. PETTEN:

I got one for that section.

Just a final thing.

Mary,

when you were just talking there – we were talking about cutting out the after

school to go to the younger children. Some businesses are doing that. When the

renewal comes – I think me and the minister spoke about this as well – there

will be a minimum requirement so something like this doesn't happen, better

protections. Is that what we're looking at when you sign new agreements? As

you're going to funding up to 70 per cent I don't think it's unreasonable to

look for something better – sureties and put people in the lurch they're put in

now.

T. OSBORNE:

You're correct. So we will

be looking at some protection for families. If a family enrols a student in a

program that there's an acceptable level of notice, if a business is going to

look to change the age groups that they bring in, that would give adequate time

for a parent to be able to look for another service.

Again,

I know the supply issues will resolve themselves over time and this will become

less of a problem, but certainly it's something that's on our radar and we're

looking at options as to what can be put into a contract when they're renewed

based on both the fact that we're going to $10 and the wage grid, and rolling

the wage supplement into the operating grant program and so on. So there are a

number of changes that are going to be taking place with the contract. So it's a

good time to look at what else we put in the contract.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thanks.

Minister, has there been any cost analysis done or benefit analysis on the new

film and television school? Is it going to be cost neutral?

T. OSBORNE:

The College of the North

Atlantic, after the initial start-up funding, which was in this year's budget,

they'll be able to operate the additional programming through the existing

College of the North Atlantic funding. So they have that capacity and the

ability – they are looking at programs throughout the province that are being

offered to determine what the labour market demands are and what programs are

best offered by the college. There are some programs that are best offered by

the private colleges versus the College of the North Atlantic and there are

instances where the College of the North Atlantic and the private colleges

actually compete and neither of the classrooms are full.

But

looking at the labour market demands, the film and television school, for the

foreseeable future, we anticipate very strong enrolment. September is very close

so I am not saying that the classes will be full in September, but I do

anticipate next year that they will be once the word gets out.

There

are memorandums of understanding with three other institutes now that offer

similar programming where if somebody is going to the Toronto Film School, for

example, they may be able to upgrade their training at ours and transfer credits

or vice versa. So it is already well under way to being a very recognized campus

across the country because of those MOUs.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you.

Minister, Teacher Allocation Review Committee, has there been any word on where

they are in that process or any anticipated timeline completion?

T. OSBORNE:

We do have an anticipated

time. They have asked for an extension to July, is it?

OFFICIAL:

Yes.

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah, to July. But up to

this stage, I haven't been interviewed or spoken with them, So I don't know

where they are in the process.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

T. OSBORNE:

I mean it is completely

arm's length; I wouldn't be able to speak to that. They would probably take a

question from you directly. I do know that a week or so ago they wrote asking

for an extension to July.

B. PETTEN:

Will that be made public or

provided when you receive it and whatever?

T. OSBORNE:

Yes.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

G. O'LEARY:

I'll just add to that, MHA Petten, that they're meeting with department

officials today. This is our time to go in for a meeting.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

G. O'LEARY:

Right, so we're just like any other group. We go in to the meeting objectively

and we don't know what they're going to ask or propose or whatever, but they're

meeting with officials today.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you.

Prekindergarten pilot project, what is the latest with that?

T. OSBORNE:

It is well under way. We do

anticipate a number of locations throughout the province, both on the Island and

in Labrador, come September. So work is moving as expeditiously as it can to

ensure that the program is up and running for September.

think, based on the fact that it is a pilot program, there is a great deal of

effort in ensuring that we've got a good coverage of urban and rural throughout

the province. The pilot program will then help guide the establishment of

additional sites the following September.

B. PETTEN:

Will that have any impact on

the existing child care centres? There are 3,100 spaces so is it going to have

any negative impact on any of those?

T. OSBORNE:

We don't anticipate it would

be significant and as we move to $10 a day the demand for early learning and

child care is going to be increased even again. So we don't anticipate that if

there are children – the other aspect is the fact that this is pre-K, not all of

the children will be coming from the existing operations of early learning and

child care. If you have a four-year-old child and you say, you know I like the

concept of pre-K, so you register for pre-K but your child has never been

involved in early learning previously.

So for both of those reasons

– the fact that the demand has increased now – we didn't see the demand

pressures on early learning three years ago that we see today and they are going

to be increased even further when we go to $10 a day because it is more

affordable. So we don't anticipate, you know, a significant impact on the

existing operators.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

I guess to Early Childhood

again, it seems to be my topic. Where are we getting the extra workers? I know

there is extra funding that they're trying to increase the pay, increase the

recruitment, but I guess my question is: What's the plan with the recruitment?

As we know now the workforce is a challenge so where is the plan to get – we are

looking at a big expansion so what is the plan in place to deal with the extra

(inaudible)?

T. OSBORNE:

So there are a number of

things both in the short term and long term to increase the number of ECEs that

are in the system. Long term are the 700 seats that we have through the College

of the North Atlantic, Keyin and Academy Canada. So that's longer term.

Obviously, those individuals need to train.

Shorter term we have the

earn while you learn so that you can actually be in the classroom and in the

workplace, you know, while doing your course. We've got the home-based

operations where we are looking to expand the home based which will provide

additional spaces, but we have also got a database of people who trained and are

qualified to be ECEs who have left the sector and sought employment elsewhere;

whether it's in the service sector or fast food sector or other settings. But

they left because the pay didn't reflect the work that they are doing.

Now that the level of pay is

going to be more reflective of the work that they're doing, we are actively

reaching out to try and re-recruit those individuals who have trained and are

eligible to be ECEs to work as ECEs. We've got a pretty solid database of people

that we are looking to reintegrate into the sector. Some will come; some may

decide to stay where they've gone. So we've got that.

In terms of the pre-K, first

priority as we indicated during our announcement will be for Level 3 or higher

ECEs. Both the ECEs that are currently in the system and the ECEs that we're

trying to attract back to the sector, but in areas where we cannot get an ECE

that's Level 3 or higher, we are looking to retired primary educators for the

pre-K sector as well.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you.

The

Member's time has expired.

MHA

Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Just

with regard to child care, and I've mentioned this to you, Minister, as well,

when we're looking at new schools, maybe there is a way of attaching child care

centres to the school, so you have, I guess, a one-stop shop for everyone. But I

think it's a model that's worth considering for parents especially having to

drop them off. That's a model. I don't know if that's something that can be done

to retrofit some schools as well, but it's an idea that I think is worth

pursuing.

With

regard to the pre-K, and just to follow up on what my colleague asked: Where is

the space? We've identified, I guess, schools that have the space?

T. OSBORNE:

We have. In consultation

identified – for the pilot program, this will be entirely within schools that

have the primary setting.

J. DINN:

Right.

T. OSBORNE:

On the previous topic that

you raised, you're absolutely correct. The three new schools we're looking at

and remodeling an existing as well, but for the three new schools, we will be

looking at not only pre-K but other early learning. Because if we can have

children within the school setting from the time they start early learning to

the time they go to kindergarten, the children are better served and it's more

convenient for parents as well. So that is absolutely something that's part of

our plan as we move forward, just as it is for pre-K.

So the

pilot program, we've identified a number of schools throughout the province that

have space available to allow the pre-K for the pilot program. We've also

identified a number of schools beyond the pilot program because the pilot

program, you don't want to jump too quickly and too deep into the deep end, so

to speak. So the pilot program will help ensure that the program is as we want

it to be and adjustments can be made then as we expand it the following year, if

need be.

We've

identified schools that are capable, have the space available for the pilot

program, as well as for following years and we'll be working with those schools.

Some schools may involve some retrofits in order to incorporate the pre-K; some

are easier. So the schools that are easier to get into are the ones that we'll

look at for the pilot program as well.

But we

have identified schools and we're working with school districts and with the

Division of Early Learning now to ensure that the areas that are identified, we

also identify the ECEs to work in those sectors. And in the very, very near

future we will be making available to the public the list of the sites selected

for the pre-K pilot program so that parents can register.

J. DINN:

What's the cap on the pre-K?

Is it going to be the same as kindergarten, 20?

T. OSBORNE:

That will be announced, I

think, as part of the announcement when we roll out the pre-K program, the pilot

program, in its entirety. That will be coming very, very soon.

J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

Are

there any people over there who were primary educators? Okay, I have a reason

why I'm asking that. I just want to give you some numbers and why I ask the

class size.

Grade

2: 28, one school; Grade 4: two Grade 4 classes, 30 kids in each class; Grade 5

class, 30 young people in each class. I taught high school and I taught high

school with 30 kids. I can tell you, academically, no problem, but it will be a

very brave individual to go into a primary grade of 30 individuals of Grade 2,

3, 4, I don't care what. That has to be addressed. If we're going to have these

little kids who are going from pre-K to kindergarten where they have 20 in a

class and then up to Grade 1, and then the cap is 25, it is unfair.

So,

Minister, I can't urge you enough that has to be addressed. I don't know what

this Committee is going to come back with but, to me, I taught high school my

entire career in junior high, but 30 primary kids is a challenge for a teacher

but, more importantly, it is a challenge for the students.

With

regard to French immersion, what is the status of that? Because it seems to be

under attack or the schools seem to be under threat of losing it. I know the

most recent one was out in the Crescent Collegiate in Blaketown. Where does the

department stand on French immersion, whether it is early French immersion or

late French immersion? Is there a desire to keep it or is there a desire to see

it end and let the francophone school take care of the francophone or French

education?

T. OSBORNE:

No, I mean, there is

certainly a desire to keep the French immersion. The francophone school simply

doesn't have the locations throughout the province to be able to take students

French immersion. There is a desire to keep it in cases where enrolment doesn't

warrant it are the cases that we hear about. If you've got two or three students

enroled for French immersion, it is difficult to justify putting a teaching unit

in place for a cohort of three students.

So we

have been working with schools in those cases to combine grades where the

parents are open and amenable to looking at combining grades so that we are able

to keep French immersion in that school. But we also work with communities to

try and encourage increased enrolment in the French immersion stream. It is

challenging because it largely depends on the desire of the community, the

parents and the students in that community to enrol in French immersion. It is

purely a factor of enrolment.

J. DINN:

Is there a plan to promote

it? I mean to recruit because speaking as an anglophone, myself, and whose limit

was: Tu connais Marcel Martin? Oui, nous sommes de bons copains – that was the

extent of my high school education in French, but it has value. Is there any

plan, I guess, or strategy in the department to recruit or to encourage people

to – it improves your job opportunities as well.

T. OSBORNE:

Absolutely. I think not only

are students well served by having the French. My French is very limited as

well. We could get into the battle of who knows less in terms of French, but

I've got a repertoire of about three or four sentences that I remember from

French in school. I wish I knew more.

Promoting is something that we absolutely need to look at, because not only are

the students well served, I think the province is well served.

J. DINN:

Okay.

That's

it for me, Chair.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you.

I ask

the Clerk to recall the grouping.

CLERK:

Kindergarten to Grade 12

Education and Early Childhood Development, 3.1.01 through 3.6.01 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall Kindergarten to Grade

12 Education and Early Childhood Development, 3.1.01 to 3.6.01 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.1.01 through 3.6.01 carried.

CHAIR:

I ask the Clerk to call the

next grouping.

CLERK:

Post-Secondary Education,

4.1.01 through 4.4.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Post-Secondary Education,

4.1.01 to 4.4.02.

MHA

Petten.

B. PETTEN:

Thank you, Chair.

It's

been a long week, hasn't it?

Under

4.2.01, MUN's Operations, a couple of questions there. The Regular Operating

Grant is up approximately $14 million in the revised last year. It's dropped

back, but it's still an increase of $8 million.

R. HAYES:

The increase during '21-'22

relates again to collective bargaining negotiated salary increases, as well as

early severance payouts.

B. PETTEN:

Okay.

The

Tuition Offset has dropped $8 million; is that as a result of the declining

year-over-year amount for the tuition reduction?

T. OSBORNE:

So the Tuition Offset is

just over $13 million a year over five years. The agreement with Memorial was $6

million of that is forgivable this year, one-time only. It was actually just

over $7 million this year in terms of a reduction for the Tuition Offset.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you.

Under

4.2.02, Loans, Advances and Investments, again that was budgeted at $10 million

last year and now we're down to $3.5 million. That is a $7 million reduction

basically.

R. HAYES:

That $10.5 million budget

related to the Holyrood Marine Base. During the year, they were able to complete

a portion of the work, about 70 per cent of it, and the $3.5 million is a carry

forward from the work that didn't get done in '21-'22.

B. PETTEN:

That's a beautiful building.

Under

MUN maintenance, I'm assuming Grants and Subsidies would be for towards MUN for

the maintenance. Am I correct?

T. OSBORNE:

I didn't hear you.

B. PETTEN:

I'm in

section 4.2.02.

T. OSBORNE:

What was your question

again, Barry, sorry?

B. PETTEN:

It's not really clear. I'm

in 4.2.02. I guess what I'm looking at is MUN's expected maintenance. As we

know, maintenance at MUN, their infrastructure repairs or whatever – is that in

that section? Maybe it's not in that section. Maybe I might be mistaking my

question, but I'm wondering about the deferred maintenance costs at MUN.

T. OSBORNE:

So I mean, it would be.

There's not a carved out amount for maintenance. MUN determine –

B. PETTEN:

An envelope.

T. OSBORNE:

Part of the reason for the

footprint freeze at the moment is we want to ensure that MUN is able to manage

and maintain the infrastructure they have before we continue on with expansion

of footprint.

There

is a deferred maintenance at Memorial. That's obviously a concern not only for

Memorial but for government as well. So those are some of the discussions we're

having with Memorial as we proceed to moving in to the upgrades or changes to

the MUN act.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you.

Under

4.3.01, CNA's Tuition Offset Grant for $14.9 million never changed even though

tuition is increasing.

T. OSBORNE:

Yeah. So we didn't see the

change through the college that we did through Memorial. I mean, Memorial came

to us early last year and had indicated that they were moving forward with the

doubling of tuitions. When they had indicated that to government, we looked at

the Tuition Offset Grant and said, well, you know, the reason for the Tuition

Offset Grant to Memorial was simply to freeze tuitions so that was the reason we

made the decision to eliminate that over five years, but we didn't see the

corresponding changes at the college.

B. PETTEN:

Okay, thank you.

Minister, in 4.4.01, Grants and Subsidies, there was $9.2 million budgeted last

year, $6.3 million spent, but we're back up to $7.4 million. So what's the

rationale for that?

R. FEAVER:

MHA Petten, that's the result of federal increase in their funding. So that

funding was increased last year as a result of COVID, maintained this year and

will be maintained again next year. So because of the stacking model of the

program, no student was less off. They got, actually, probably even more grant

through the federal program, just resulting in less expenditure for us.

B. PETTEN:

Okay. Thanks for that.

On that

same topic, I guess, student loans, so what are we looking at in default with

student loans? Is there a dollar value, a number of individuals affected? Do you

have that actual list? Do you have an idea or that number?

R. FEAVER:

The default rate rises and falls over each year. If I go back five years, we've

seen it at 5 per cent, 6 per cent. Las