LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. MR. CLERK, Jack Reeves: It is again my duty to in form the House that Mr . Speaker is un avoidably absent and would ask the Deputy Speaker to please take the Chair of the Hous e in accordance with the Statutes. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Deputy Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): Presenting Petitions ... Read ing and Re ceiving Petit ions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Riv er East. MR. PHIL EYLER (River East): Mr .

Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolu­ tions , dir ects me to report same and asks leave to sit agai n. I move, seconded by the Hon ourable Memb er for The Pas, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Minis terial Statements and Tabl ing of Reports ... Notices of Motion ... In tro- du ction of Bills .. . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before we proceed with Oral Que stions, if I may dir ect the atte ntion of members to the galler y where we have a group of Grades 7, 8 and 9 students from Pembina Crest School un der the dir ection of Mr . Bed oin. They are represented by the Hon ourable Mem ber for Fort Garry. As well , we have a group of 26 students of Grade 5 stan ding from the Al lard Ele mentary School un der the dir ect ion of Mr. Ron Pratt and they are represent­ ed by the Memb er for Kir kfield Park. An additional 21 students of Grade 4 standing from the Margar et Scott School underthe dir ection of Mrs.

Poronkosnyk, and are represented by the Hono urable Memb er for Bur rows. Fi nally, we have a group of 50 Grade 4 students from the Val ley Eleme ntary School un der the dir ec­ tion of Mr. Klass en. These students are from the Uni­ ted States. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. STERLING LYON (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Fir st Min ister: in view of the fact that Man itoba Hydro has announc ed that it is making all of its computations with respect to Capital expenditur e, with respect to rate charges, with respect to other future developments in that great Man itoba util ity based upon a commen cement of the construction of Lime stone Gene rating Plant on the Nelson Ri ver in 1987 to be completed in 1992, could the Fir st Min ister advise the House as to when he was fi rst in formed that the construction of Limestone was going to be delayed by five years and thereby the consequen ces of that cons truction of thousands of jobs that would be created put five years down the lin e?

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Fir st Mini ster. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr . Speaker, I've not been in formed that Li mestone would not be pro­ ceeded with until 1987. I expect that the In ter-Tie will be in place within the next few months and we'll be proceeding early. MR. LYON: Wel l, Mr . Speaker, while we are, of course, heartened by the comments of the First Mi ni s­ ter, may I sug gest, Mr .

Speaker, if the Fi rst Mini ster would read the transcript of the deli berations before the Public Util ities Committee this morning he would see that the fun damental projections of Manitoba Hydr o are based on a construction of Lime stone tak­ ing place in 1987 and thereafter to be completed in 1992, based on of cour se as they said, based on the Man itoba load-g rowth assu ming a status quo posi­ tion without Alcan, without the Gr id, etc. Now, is the Fir st Min ister saying that this is news to him today? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Energy and Mi nes. HON.

WILSON PARASI UK (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, sinc e we're having the Leader of the Opposition trying to read some nua nces that weren't there in to what took place this morning at the Public Uti li ties Com­ mittee, I think it's important that the publi c of Mani­ toba have a very clear idea of what Hydr o was sayi ng. Hydro prepared those financial forecasts through­ out the sum mer of 1981 and they were completed by November of 1981. I asked them to be reviewed.

At that time they were looking at the impact of domestic load-g rowth with respect to futur e in service state of Lime stone and they said that on the basis of domestic load-growth, that Limestone wouldn' t be requir ed for in service state until 1992, Mr. Speaker. That's not news. 2400 The point is that we are in fact, presently nego tiat­ in g the Western Int er-Tie which in deed could lead to the be ginnin g of construction this fal l of the Li mes­ tone project. We are also re-activat in g, Mr .

Speaker, the aggr essive pursuit of markets to the south of us which I think were negl ected by the previous ad min is­ tration and we belie ve that those opportuni ties for export sales can ind eed , enable Li mestone to be pro­ ceeded with sooner than 1987.

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr .

Speaker, a question to the Fi rst Mi nis­ ter - not to his alter ego - the question to the Fi rst Mi nister, and it's a funda menta lly important question because the Western Power Inter-Tie or Grid is one of the largest developments that could take place in this region and Manitoba would be one of the greatest ben eficiaries from it, can the Fir st Mi nister gi ve an assu rance to the House that the instructions that passed between the previous adm inis tration and Manitoba Hydro and the response made thereto by Manitoba Hydro in October of 1981 to begin the de­ mothball ing of the townsite next to Lime stone on the Nelson Riv er and to beg in the prelim inary construc­ tions of Lime stone this year, can he gi ve the assur­ ance that those instructi ons to hydro have not been countermanded by his government?

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nis ter of Energy and Mi nes. MR. PARASI UK: Mr. Speaker, we have another instance of the Leader of the Opposition using his selective amnesia to try and reconstruct history that di dn't exist. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, there was no instruction by that former government to Hydro to begin construction. Now we have him some few months later getting up and saying, "I made those instructions." Mr . Speaker, that is not the truth. Those instructions were not gi ven.

The instructions were made for Hydro to begin to do the work that would enable them to be in a posit on to restart construction, Mr . Speaker, but there were no instructions by that government that construction should proceed. MR. LYON: Wel l, Mr . Speaker, gi ven the usua l impre­ cision of the memory, to say nothing of the uttered words of the Mi nis ter, who takes it unto himself to respond for que stions that are really of importance to be answered by the Fi rst Mi nis ter, not by his second in command or whatever he may be. Can the First Minis ter, Mr. Speaker -(In terjection)­ ! wish you'd run some show.

Mr . Speaker, the com­ ment was made that they're not running a one-man show the way we did; they're not running any show at all; they're not running the Government of Manitoba except like a peanut stand. I'm asking the Fir st Mi nis­ ter, Mr. Speaker, whether the exchange of correspon­ dence that took place between the previous govern­ ment and Manitoba Hydr o with respect to the beginning of the de-mothballin g of the townsite and the preparation for the beginning of construction of Lime stone, whether or not that correspondence has been countermanded by his governme nt? MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney­ General on a point of order. MR. PENNER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Beauch esne at Page 131 states qu ite un equ ivocally with respect to questions, that questions are improper seeking information about proceedings in the com­ mittee which has not yet made its report to the Hous e. -(In terjection)- No, it has not. It has not made its 2401 final report to the House as the Leader of the Opposi­ tion well knows. Today was the fi rst of what may be two or two-and-a- half days in committee.

It will be in order when that committee has reported to ask any questions that haven't been dealt with by the commit­ tee. But otherwise, in my submi ssion, Sir , the ques­ tion is out of order and the questioning in itself is out of order. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Honourable Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. LYON: Mr . Speaker, as usual my honourable friend the Attorney-Gene ral, the putative Hous e Leader for the Government, is imprecise in his inter­ pretation of Beauche sne. The question, Sir , would have been in order whether the committee was sitting or not.

The que stion, very simply, is has this government done anything to coun­ termand the excha nge of corr espondence that took place between the previous governm ent and Mani­ toba Hydro which would have seen the beginnings of some work on Lime stone this year? That has nothing to do with the committee. Has the governm ent done anything to countermand that, because Hydr o is bas­ ing its projections now on a start-up in 1987. Why? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Hono urable Fi rst Mi nis ter. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, fir st I would point out to the Leader of the Opposition and members across that we do not intend, like the previous governm ent, to be a one-man show. We operate on the basis of a team. It has been alw ays my finding that a team works more effectively and more competently when, indeed, that work is properly delega ted and di stributed in an even way throughout. Then, Mr . Speaker, we ascer­ tain some orderl iness out of the process of government. Mr .

Speaker, I'm pleased that my col league ans­ wered ea rlier because the Leader of the Opposition asked a question based upon, apparently, a false premise that was not correct and I apprecia te the fact that was pointed out very cle arly to the Leader of the Opposition that the pr emise that he was uti li zing in this House was a false premise. Insofar as the instructio ns that were passed on, it is my understanding they were not countermanded but, indeed, that plus other work was undertaken. MR. LYON: Mr .

Speaker, if the Honourable Fir st Mi n­ ister had been at the committee, he would realize, ratherthan speaking through his mouthpiece, that the premise upon which the que stion was based was not false. The tables upon which Hydr o was making its exposition to the committee this morning were based upon a Capital start-up of Li mestone in 1987.

Now, having cleared that out of the road, let me ask my honourable friend whether he has instructed his Mi nis ter of Mi nes and Energy to proceed with the meeting on May 12th, which I believe is tomorrow, with his Saskatche wan counterpart, if not also with the Alber ta coun terpart with respect to the continua­ tion of the extremely crucial negotiations for the Western Inter-tie?

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Energy and Mi nes. MR. PARAS IUK: Mr. Speaker, my Premier had con­ tacted the Premier-elect in Saskatch ewan before he was sworn in and raised a numb er of these issues with him. I contacted the office of the new Mi nister respon­ sible for the Saskatche wan Power Corporation yes­ terday, the first working day of his swearing in. He was completely tied up in meetings. I have been informed today by officials through Saskatche wan, that he has asked for a postponement of the meeting that would take place tomorrow.

I had been in consultation with the Al berta Mi nis ter responsible for negotiating the Western In ter-Tie for the Al berta Governme nt. It was agreed that if they did desire some type of pause that we would show him that courtesy. It is our hope that we migh t get together as soon as possible, hopefully with in the next two weeks or so but the ball, Mr . Speaker, righ t now is in the Saskatche wan Govern­ ment's court. I hope that they want to proceed as exped itiously as the Manitoba Government wants to and as the Al berta Governme nt wants to. Mr .

Speaker, while I'm on my feet, it is very impor­ tant to correct for the public of Manitoba a grossly misleading statement that was just made by the Leader of the Opposition when he said that Hydr o's projections, based on domestic load-growth, some­ how under the New Dem ocratic Party changed to a start-up date of 1987. Those projections, Mr . Speaker, and people were informed of that today, are develop­ ed by Hydro in a preceding year. Work is done through the summer, the projections were developed in Novem ber of 1981, when that government was sti ll in office.

Now if the Leader of the Opposition again practising his selective amnesia, refuses to take cog­ nizance of that fact, then we are back in the same state we were in Manitoba when that man who went over to Switzerland to sig n the CFI Ag reement refused to acknowledge that he had been to Switzerland and had sign ed the CFI Agreement. Mr. Speaker, that is one of the reasons why the people of Manitoba threw that person out of office because they di dn't want a politicia n or a government statesman who would practise that type of deceptive selective amnesia. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr . Speaker, by way of a preliminary, I'm happy that the Fir st Mi nister and his running mate, the Mi nister of Mi nes and Energy, have seen fit to follo w the good advice that was gi ven to them from this side of the House and that they have made contact with the Premi er-elect and with the Mi nis ter in charge of Hydro Development.

I would earnestly counsel the Mi nister of Mi nes and Energy in this respect that far from the ball being in Saskatch ewan's court the ball remains in Manitoba's court because it was Manitoba's idea and Manitoba is the greatest benef ici ary from the Western Inter-Tie. So he need not think, Mr. Speaker, that he can slack back in the traces. Now, Mr .

Speaker, may I ask the Fir st Mi nister whether or not he feels that his recent foray on a partisan trip into Alb erta, wherein he apparently took cheap shots at the Premier of Al berta, is go ing to help the status of these negotiatio ns and help the people of Manitoba to achie ve this vastly needed Inter-Tie with all of the thousands of jobs that will go with it. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable the First Mi nister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, I can unde rstand the misunder stand ing, I suppose. that's given rise to the que stion on the part of the Leader of the Oppositio n.

The New Democr atic Party is such that we do demon­ strate an interest in the affairs of the New Democratic Party in other parts of this country as well as in our individua l provinces. I was invited to the Province of Al berta to speak to a nomi nating convention in the Province of Al berta. I had made some comments pertaining to the New Democratic Party in the Province of Manitoba and, Mr.

Speaker, I made some general que stions pertain­ ing to the factors that gi ve rise to the growth of separa­ tist movements such as the Western Concept Party which is now unfortunately very strong in the Prov­ ince of Al berta.

I made some comments as to contri­ butio ns that may have been made towards the growth of that party by di fferent politicia ns, includ ing the Leader of the Opposition while he was the Premier of this province, incl ud ing other premiers of this pro­ vince, statements which I gather the now Premie r of the Province of Al berta acknowledges indeed, may have been a contributing factor toward the growth of what indeed is becoming a very very strong move­ ment in the Province of Al berta; a movement that we hope will not form government in the Province of Al berta fort he good of Canada after the next election. MR.

LYON: Wel l, Mr.

Speaker, at a time when Mani­ toba in particu lar is engaged in crucial bi- province negotiatio ns on something as important to the futur e of all Manito bans as the Western Power Inter-Tie, negotiatio ns which have to be carried on at the high­ est level and with the best of good faith by the three premiers of Alber ta, Saskatche wan and Manitoba, does the Fi rst Mi nis ter of Manitoba not feel that it would be in the public interest if he were to set aside for awhile this partisan anac hronism of socialism which is, that they can go in, heap dir t on whatever premier there is in whatever other province and then expect to sit down at the table and negotiate with him in good faith?

Would he not set that aside in the interests of the people of Manitoba, socialism and solida rity notwithstanding? 2402 MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, I could if I wis hed to recall that the former Premier of this province had to say about Premier Al lan Blak eney in Saskatch ewan dur ing ti mes of negotiati ons with respect to the Inter ­ Tie. I reg ret very much that the Leader of the Opposi­ tion is of the view that I heaped dir t on what Premier Loug heed was doing in Al berta.

In fact, I was very careful not to engage in di scussion as to the provin­ ci al government itself in the Province of Al berta and what it was doing in respect to the Province of Alber ta. But, Mr. Speaker, I want to say this and I want to make it very very clear. I would not hold it against

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 Premier Peter Loughe ed if he should decide at the invitation of the Leader of the Opposition to come to Manitoba to speak in the Province of Manitoba on behalf of the Conservative Party of the Province of Manitoba, I would not hold it again st him. I would expect that it would indeed be reasonable that Peter Loug heed, being a Conservative, might indeed be invited to attend at the next Conservative Party Con­ ven tion if there be one provincially - I know not whether they hold provincial conventions or not - to be their gu est speaker.

I can assure the Leader of the Opposition I would not for a moment be so low as to hold any personal ant agonism towards Peter Lougheed. Mr. Speaker, I also am of the view that Peter Lough­ eed is a big en ough in di vidual not to stoop to such triviality as to hold against the Premier of the Province of Manitoba for expressing his political view s in the Province of Al berta. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the Social ist Premier of Manitoba that the Conservative Premier of Albe rta would have more cla ss than to do what he just did in the Province of Al berta. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS (Cont'

d) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: If I could interrupt for a second, I'd li ke to draw the members' attent ion to my righ t where we have a di sting uishe d visit or. The Hon­ ourable Terry Sargeant, MP for Selkirk-In terlake is present and we welcome you here today. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. POINT OF ORDER MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, just a minor point for the record, I rise on a point of order. There was a non sequi tur made by the Minis ter of Mi nes and Energy to the effect that I trave ll ed to Swit­ zerland and signed some agreeme nt in the past with respect to Man For.

I put it on the record only for the benefit of the record that I did no such thing. Mr. Speaker, the only reason I rise is because we are becoming accustomed to the misstatements of the Mi nis ter of Mi nes and Energy, in as polite a way as I can in the face of that ki nd of an outrigh t mistruth, I correct the record for him. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Energy and Mi nes on a point of order. MR. PARAS IUK: If the Leader of the Opposition states that he di dn't go to Switzerland, I certainly ackn owledge that it's true then and I with draw that part of the statement. But, Mr.

Speaker, if indeed the Leader of the Opposition is trying to leave the impres­ sion that he di dn't sign that docu ment then I think that again is another case. I di dn't hear that he denied that he signed the CFI Agreeme nt that committed Mani­ toba to the wastage of about $140 mill ion. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, it's not my desire to con­ tinue this bus iness with the Min ister of Mi nes and Energy. I merely want to state to him that the members of the Rob lin Government at that time did sign the agreement.

I was one of the sign atories to the agree­ ment under which in 1969 there had been $11 mil li on paid out when my honourable friends came to office and proceeded to pay out another $125 mill ion. MR. PARAS IUK: Mr. Speaker, on that same point of order that the Leader of the Opposition was speaking on. Mr. Speaker, we have been urged time and time again by the former Conservative Government that we should bl ind ly accept everyt hing that they were negotia ted prior to the change in office that took place on November 17.

Now we have the Leader of the Conservative Party saying that the NOP should have completely repud iated that terrible agreeme nt which the Conservative Government sign ed in 1969. Wel l, Mr. Speaker, we have le arned from their mistakes. We take a very care ful look at anyt hing the Conservative Party led by that ind ividual has been involved in, Mr. Speaker. MR. LYON: Well, Mr. Speaker, to continue and not to expand upon your gracio usness in permitting this all to continue under a point of order, I merely say, Mr. Speaker, that I made no such statement at all.

That's a figme nt of my honourable friend's imag ination which is greater than his sense of the truth and I merely say to him that he and his colle agues are demonstrating today that they can't run a peanut stand any better than they could in 1969 and onward. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health on a point of order. HON. LAURENT DESJARD INS (St. Bon iface): I'd lik e to move that the de bate be adjourned, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Morris. 2403 MR. CLAYTON MANNESS (Morris): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to ask a question of the Min ister of Agri cu lture if I could. I'd like to know how many for­ mal applications, and I'm not talk ing about inqu iries, but formal applications have been received to date under the Farm In terest Relief Program? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. BILL URUSKI (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice.

I know there have been more than 200 formal applications forwarded to MACC for processing, but I will take the specifics under advise ment. MR. MANNESS: Possib ly the Min ister would also lik e then to take as notice the questi ons: How many applications have been approved? And, to date, what has been the total provincial payout under this program? My other question, though, is consideration being gi ven to increasing the levels of eligibili ty, the criteria under the program to allo w a greater percentage of

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 Ma nitoba farmers to apply for that program? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, that decision wi ll be, if there will be any change, wil l be made when all the applications that are in process now will be dealt with. If there is need to make some further revisions, we will certai nly look at that and that'll be a policy decision which will be made in due course. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you , Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Agri­ cul ture.

Could the Mini ster indi cate how many pro­ du cer meetings have been held or schedu led by his newly appointed advisory committee for beef pro­ du cers to give their views on his newly announc ed Beef Inc ome Plan? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that que s­ tion as notice and check with the committee.

I can advise the honourable member that I will be meeting with the committee later on this week to share some of their views from the meetings that they have had and some of the views that they've got in terms of what direction they feel that the department should be assisting them in providing information for the devel­ opment of the program. MR. ORCHARD: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, since the Mini s­ ter is not aware of how many meetings have been held, I might refresh his memory in that there are very few being held.

Could the Mini ster of Agriculture con­ firm that the reason there are very few meetings being held for the producers to voice their views on his plan is that the members of his advisory board don't want to hold meetings with producers? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the regio nal committees are the committees that will be dealing with producers in their own areas. How and what form the meetings take will be up to those committees to decide and they will be meeting with me very shortly at which time they wi ll be providing some advice and informa tion that they wish back.

The honourable member may have wanted a whole host of public meetings that woul d -( ln terjection)­ wel l, Mr. Speaker, obviously it appears that the members opposite don't want the producers them­ selves to sit down and work out the details of the plan which they are now in the process of doing. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary to the Mi nister of Agriculture.

In view of the fact that when he made his annou ncement on May 4th of the advisory committee, and in response to a question from the Memb er for Turtle Mou ntain indicated that the advisory board would be meeting with producer groups in the province to obtain their opinions on his plan, woul d the Mi nister of Agricultu re now consider instructing his advisory board and his appointees to the advisory board to hold those meetings to gain the legitimate views of the cattle producers in the prov­ ince as his First Minister has indi cated is going to happen?

Wi ll he instruct his group to do that and have those meetings? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'm certain that the com­ mittees have held meetings various regio ns. They may not have been to the liking of the Honourable Me mber for Pembina but, Mr. Speake r, those commit­ tees are holding their own meetings, they're having their own discussions and they will be coming for­ ward with sug gestions not on the program in terms of devising the details to the program. We annou nced the principles that we env isaged the program to be developed around, and now the producers are work­ ing on the details, Mr.

Speaker, not as the honourable member suggests. MR. ORCHARD: Wel l, in the areas that have not had a meeting amongst producers, will the Mi nister instruct his appointees to the advisory committee to hold such a meeting to listen to the views of cattle producers? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I' ve had respresentations made by one group to my office who in dicated that they wanted to make an input to the committee. I' ve advised them to make their views known and their views certain ly will be given to the committee and it'll be up to the committee to meet with that grou p. MR.

ORCHARD: So then, I take it that the Mi nister of Agric ultu re is saying that there' ll be no public meet­ ings to hear the views of the cattle producers in the Province of Ma nitoba in response to his il l-con ceived Beef Inc ome Plan. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I have received many submissions from producer grou ps. I've received submissions on the basic plans from the MC PA and from other grou ps.

The producer groups wi ll be hold­ ing and have held either formal and informal meetings with producers in their regio ns and they are now working on the details as to what they feel should be the basic details to the plan. They will be going on that process for as long as it takes them to make a plan which then I expect, Mr. Speaker, they will relay to the farmers of Ma nitoba and discuss with them. 2404 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture.

Cou ld the Mini ster indi­ cate how many applications have been received by Ma nitoba Agricu ltural Credit Corporation since he took office and how many have been approved? How many applications have been received by Ma nitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation for agric ul tural loans and how many have been approved? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the applications for loans would be handled in a normal way, but I'll take that question as notice. MR. DRIEDG ER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Mini ster.

Has the Minister completed his review of the highly popular program of selling agricultu ral Crown lands that was instituted by the previous admin istration?

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, in terms of the Crown lands that the member is speaking of, that review is being unde rtaken by the Minister of Natural Resour­ ces and the governme nt and when cha nges and the review is complete, that wi ll be ann ounc ed. I believe, as wel l, annou ncemen ts were made that those appli­ cations that have been in, are being presently reviewed, in process. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Govern ment Services. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, about a week ago or at least du ring the course of Estimates review, the Me mber for Vir den had put a question with respect to the amount of premium dol­ lars col le cted by the Motor Vehicles Branch for MPIC along with the licence reve nu es for the last fiscal year. I want to indicate to the member that the basic insu­ rance premiu m amou nted to $8,854, 014, the addi­ tional premiums based on demerits amounted to $3,851,743, and surcha rges based on accident invol­ vement amou nted to $270,350 for a total of $12,976, 107.00. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Virden. MR.

HARRY GR AHAM (Virden): I want to thank the Honourable Minister for that information. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on a point of order. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountai n): A point of order, Mr. Speake r. We do appreciate getting the answers from the Honourable Mi nisters but I believe that questions that were placed du ring the Estimates cou ld be best an swered in written form rather than taking up the time of the question period. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, have a question to the Mi nister of Agricultu re.

Cou ld he indicate to the House what the reason for the rem­ oval of, or the dismissal of, one Assistant Deputy Mini ster of Agric ultu re in the Ma rketing Branch? Was it to make room for one of the civil servants who would be moving in from Saskatchewan? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. URUSKI: No, Mr. Speaker. In terms of the ongo­ ing re-organization of the department that position has been posted as red un dant and the new position is being advertised and is being bullet ined. MR. DOWNEY: In other words, Mr.

Speake r, could the Mi nister confirm that he feels that the head job of marketing, responsible for the marketing of Ma nitoba agricu lture products, that thrust is red un dan t in the Provi nce of Mani toba? Is that what he's saying? MR. URUS KI: Mr. Speaker, the Marketing Branch is and has been intact, and is proceeding as it alw ays has been proceeding in terms of its priorities in this government and the member well knows the discus­ sion we had and the thrusts we are unde rtaking in the marketing area dealing with agric ul tural products in this province. MR. DO WNEY: Mr.

Speaker, how many more employees of the Department of Agriculture does the Minister plan to fire in the next six months? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, that question really doesn't deserve an answer. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Gla dstone. MRS. CHARLOTTE OLESON (G ladstone): My ques­ tion is to the Mi nister of Natural Resources. Has he or any of his departmental staff met with the municipal officials in the Rathwel l-Treherne-H olland area to discuss the plans concerning the Holland Dam? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Ministe r of Natural Resources. HON. Al MACK LING (St.

James): Not that I'm aware of, Mr. Speaker. MRS. OLESON: In view of the fact that the Mi nister promised during his Estimates, to keep the people informed and in view of the fact that several of the people in that area have calle d me to find out what is goi ng on, I wonder if the Minister would tell the people what his plans are for that project. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I'll be happy to com­ municate with anyone who makes inq uiry to me. If they made inq uiry to the honourable member I would suggest that they redirect those inq uiries to me and I'll ende avour to an swer them. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Community Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (B randon East): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Honourable Member for Fort Garry asked me a question with regard to newspaper reports charging laxity on the part of custodial staff at the Remand Centre. I can advise the honourable member that I have received a report now from the Deputy Commissioner of Correctio ns, Mr. Eric Cox, who says he has inve stigated the situation and has fou nd no negligence on the part of the staff at the Remand Centre. 2405 I can state briefly that the staff were advised that Mr.

Goulet, the person in questio n, was a possible suicide problem and that therefore he was moved to Block B where he could be un der constant tel evision surveil­ lan ce, and indeed he was visited by custodial staff more or less every 15 minut es or at brief intervals. The morning of Ma y 4th, Mr. Gou let was visited by his lawyer and at that time the staff went to see Mr. Goule t to get Mr. Goule t at 10:30 to bring him to see his lawyer. At that time he was found sitting in his cell

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 with a towel draped over his head and a piece of blan ket tied around his neck and the other end was tied to the bars at the foot of his bed. The strip of blan ket was removed and the on-duty nurse who checked the vital signs and reported that there was no need for concern. He was then subsequently moved to the Segregation Un it No. 1 for observation. Because of his supposed attempt at suicide, Mr. Gou let was transf erred within two hours to the psychiatric ward of the Health Sciences Cent re for assess ment where he is, at the time of writing of the report, which was yesterday.

With the refere nce to the al legation of the three inma tes that Mr. Goule t had not been un der supervi­ sion by the staff, I repeat that he was in a cell where there was TV monitoring and he had been visited at freq uent intervals. I suppose that if there was a more serious attempt made and the strip of blan ket was tied higher in the cel l, the TV monitor would have picked this up. At any rate, I just make this last observation, Mr. Speake r.

The other inma tes in the cel lblock, includ ing the three making the alle gatio n, had every opportunity to draw this man' s situation to the atten­ tion of staff but chose not to do so which makes suspect their belated concern for the well- being of Thomas Goulet. At any rate, the Deputy Commissioner of Correc­ tions, having inv estigated this situation, finds no neg­ ligence on the part of the staff at the Winnipeg Remand Centre. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Ga rry): I thank the Minister for that information, Mr.

Speaker, and for his reass urance - I take it as a reassurance - that the suicide watch at the Winnipeg Remand Centre is being maintained at the level that is req uired in a detention facility of that kind, and I take it also from his comments that the report carried in the Free Press, based on a letter from two murder suspects, was exaggerated to say the least. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Rob lin-Russel l. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-Russell): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Mi nis­ ter of Co-operative Development. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Mi nister can advise the House if he can report any sales of the surplus cheese at Rossburn and Pilot Mound since he ann ounced his program a few days ago? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Co-operative Development. HON. A.R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speake r, the people from Man co, the new Board, has met with rPe and they are putting a proposal together, a formal proposal, indicating what the problems are as they see and I have requested that they come back to us once they have formalized a documen t that we can look at very closely to see really what the problems are at the present time as far as chee se is concerned. There is a major problem of surpluses in On tario, Mr.

Speaker, that makes it al most im possible for Ma nitoba producers to tap into that market at the present time, but we are keeping a close watch on the situation and I hope that the Ma nco people will be back before too long with some of the problems that they are facing and we wi ll see then what our depart­ ment can do to assist them, Mr. Speaker. MR. McKENZIE: Thank you , Mr. Speake r.

In light of this manifesto, "A Clea r Choice for Ma nitobans - Poli­ cies of the New Democratic Party" statement whereby they would ens ure reasonable prices for basic needs, the government assist locally owned business and co-ops on the retailing, processing and trans porting of food and materials. Can I ask the Honourable Min­ ister if he's now prepared to sit down with these 50 unempl oyed workers at Rossburn and Pilot Mound and with the dairy indu stry in both those communi­ ties, to discuss with them in fact, that they haven't any fut ure at all in this province. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Co-operative Development. MR. ADAM: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Manc o people and other cheese factories, producers in Ma nitoba have met with the Milk Board and the Marketing Board to discuss problems . They expect to meet again to see what can be done to put Mani toba in a more competitive position as opposed to the price cutting that is taking place from eastern producers at the present time, that it is creating some hardships on Ma nitoba producers. I'm sure, Mr.

Speaker, you are wel l aware that Man i­ toba is sitting in the centre of Canada with markets in the west and markets in the east and they are faced with the 5 cents a pound freight cost to tap into those markets and on the other hand , you have the eastern producers who are cutting prices well below the Bel­ leville price of cheese, which makes it very diff icult for Mani toba producers. But we are meeting with them and they are trying to address this problem and I'm sure that given time, they will. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a que stion then for the Minister of Agriculture.

I wonder can the Mini s­ ter of Agric ulture advise the House if the reason that he removed the Assistant Deputy of Marketing was because they were n't able to move this surplus cheese? 2406 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. URUSKI: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Swan River. MR. D.M. (Dou

g) GO UR LAY (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I have a que stion to the Mi nister of Northern Affairs. Several weeks ago the Mini ster indicated that he would be signing a new Northern Development Agree ment and also a special Art Agree ment with the Federal Mi nister early in May, hopefully. Can the Min-

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 ister tel l us today when he'll be signing those new agreements? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. JAY COWAN (Churchill): Yes, I believe if the member checks the record he will determine that I indicated that I would be negotiating and continuing negotiations on such agreement with the Federal Govern ment. I had hoped to meet with the Minister responsible, the Honourable Herb Gray in early May.

He has indicated that he would wish to meet in later May and I'm looking forward to that meeting at which time we will be discussing those differe nces which currently exist between the positions of the Federal Govern ment and the Provi ncial Govern ment in respect to the negotiations of the Northlands Agreement. At that time I'll be providing further information in detail to the member in respect to those discussions and any succ essful concl usion of the negotiatio ns at that time. MR. GOUR LAY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Mini ster could in dicate whether he has any agree ment with the Federal Mini ster with respect to retroactivity on some of the ongoing programs that are in place now but are being paid for by 100 percent provincial dol lars. MR. COWAN: Yes, there are a nu mber of programs which are ongoing now which existed as a part of the agree ment previously. Some of those are being paid for by 100 percent provincial dol lars, of course, some of those are being paid for by 100 percent federal dol lars as well. I can assure the member that that will be an item of discussion at the time I meet with Mr.

Gray sometime, I would hope, in late May. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Que stions having expired, we'll move to Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Govern­ ment House Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr. Dep uty Speak er, may I jus t annou nce that with respect to Estimates there will be just the one Committee today in the House on Educa ­ tion and that follo wing the debate on the Bu dget there will be a switch in the order in Committee as between Consu mer and Corporate Affairs and the Estimates of the Attorney-General.

The Estimates of the Attorney­ General will fol low im mediately the Bud get Debate. Mr. Speake r, I move, seconded by the Mi nister of Ene rgy and Mines that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee lo conside r of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour­ able Memb er for The Pas in the Chair for the Depart­ ment of Educa tion. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M.

Harapiak (The Pas): Call the Committee to order. We're on Ed ucation. On 3. (b) , Miscellaneous Grants. The Me mber for Niakwa. MR. ABE KOVNATS (Niakwa): To the Honourable Mi nister, it was concerning the school buses and it's just a very short questio n. I just want to get something established in my mind that the safety factors in the school buses as to directio ns if anything happens as to emergency exits. Are the school buses well signed in either French or English for whatever young people are using these buses?

I also notice that there is an im mersion Hebrew class that's going to be started very very soon and wi ll the buses carrying these children be signed in Hebrew? The same with the Uk rainian, the ones that carry the Uk rainian child ren to the imme rsion classes in Uk rainian because this is the lan guage that these chil dren are learning to speak and un derstand in. Are the proper precautions being taken to keep these children in a safe state while trave ll ing on the buses? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Educa tion. HON. MU RIEL SMITH (Osborne): Mr.

Chair man, the practice to date has been that the signs for "Exits" on the buses is in English only . MR. KOVNATS: Wel l, to the Honourable Minister, I guess it's just a suggestion because these children who are being trained in a particula r lan guage might not be able to un derstand and I'm sure that there is proper adult supervision, but what happens if any­ thing happens and these child ren have to make their way to an Exit that's not properly signed in the lan ­ gu age they are being trained in?

Would the Honour­ ab le Mi nister take that into consideration so that these signs could be placed in the buses so if an emergency does take place, that there won't be the da nger or any loss of lives or anything that we' ll be sorry for in the future? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chair man, we're all very concerned about safety of children on buses and there is a regu­ lar safety program that is carried out with regular dril ls, where the children practise what they are sup­ posed to do in case of accident and where the Exits are.

While it is true that a nu mber of children are begin­ ning to take Hebrew programs, other langua ge pro­ grams, they're all also taking English and are all able to un derstand and read Engli sh, therefore they will not have any trouble un derstanding the written information about where to go. 2407 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Me mber for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Mr. Chair man, wonder if the Mini ster would consider making a note for future refere nc e to provide me with and I believe

Tuesday , 11 May, 1982 this request was made of our Minister last year - an ana lysis of the 1981 budg ets by division which I un derstand is not normally available until about Ju ne. If she cou ld provide me with that at her leisure after it becomes available, I would appreciate it. With respect to the It em 3.(b), I wonder if the Mi nis­ ter could indicate what grants are covered and per­ haps a brief explan ation as to the differe nce in amoun t this year versus last year. MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The major incr ease for the grants between this year's Estimates and last year's Estimates is in very small part to minor incr eases for some of the previous grants that were give n. The major effect of the incr ease is due to a decision to host two national conferences in Ma ni toba; one being the Cana dian Association of Second Langua ge Teachers and the other one being the Can adian School Trus­ tees Association. The Canadian Association of Second Langua ges was $11,000 and the Cana dian School Trustees Association is in the range of $30,000 although I do not think it will be that much.

The rest of it is just minor in creases of existing grants. MR. FILMON: Ma y I just clar ify again and I believe that this information was given and confirmed by the Minister that the special $2 mil lion grant to the City of Winnipeg School Division No. 1 is nowhere in these Estimates. -( In terjection)- Yes. So that was a sup­ plementar y appropriation that wi ll be covered in Sup­ plementary Supply next time around. MRS. SMITH: I'm sorry, Mr. Chai rman, I think there was another part to the question. Did you ask for informat ion on the grants or just the general? Did you want a list? I think you did mention it.

MR. FILMON: Although I did ask for a list of grants, I know they're in small amounts and I kn ow that I receive information on them through Government In formation Services as they're annou nced. I just wondered as to the difference between this year and last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.( b)-pass-the Member for Kirk­ field Park. MRS. GE RRY HAMMOND (Kirkfield Park): Yes, would this be, Mr . Chairma n. where the Ma nitoba Associa­ tion of Student Councils would come in or was that under another category? MRS. SMITH: No. that's in this category. MRS.

HAMMOND: Yes, could the Mini ster indicate if that $5,000 grant to MAST was for a special project or was it just a general grant? MRS. SMITH: It was a general grant to support the work of the Students' Associatio n. although in their presentation to me they did indicate the major activi­ ties that they were und ertaking and the work that they were plan ning in the coming year but the grant was not to support a project. It was to support the work and activities of a Student Association.

Ju st as many of the other grants that go to home and school and Ma nitoba Association of School Trustees for instance. is to support the activities of the association and not specific projects. MRS. HAMMOND: Mr . Chairman, would the Minister be able to indicate how many high schools actually belong to the Ma nitoba Association of Student Councils? MRS. SMITH: I do remember being given and asking for information about the numbers of schools that were represented and I do not remember the exact figure that was given to me.

I was in terested as the member opposite is in the representative nature of the organization and how many high schools that they were serving. We can get the specific inf ormation if she wishes and give it to her. The one thing that I do remember in the discus sion is, that was to be one of the major und ertakings of the association in the coming year.

In other words, they were suggesting that because they were strapped for fund s and they had limited resources that they had not been able to do as good a job as they hoped to do of contacting high schools and getting them involved and one of their major activities was to incr ease their membership in the coming year. MR. HAMMOND: Yes, I would appreciate if the Mini s­ ter would get that information. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)-pass. MR.

FILMON: Jus t one question on that, and I apol­ ogize if this was covered, is there an item under that Ma nitoba Association of Student Cou ncils for a stu­ dent han dbook and is such a han dbook available from them? MR. HEMPHILL: I believe that the Student Cou ncils Association does publish a handbook and is in the process right now of either revising or compiling a hand book, I can't quite remember which it is, that it is not yet completed but when it is it wi ll, I imagine, be available to students. MR.

FILMON: I wonder if the Mini ster could unde r­ take to get a copy for us, of the Mani toba Association of Student Councils han dbook and, secon dl y, how many sch ools pay fees and belong to this organization? MR. HEMPHILL: Mr. Cha irman. I believe that ques­ tion is along the same line as the question from the Member for Kirkfield Park where she wanted to know how many high schools belong to the organization and, I believe, that the question related to how many are paying due s is the same questio n. and I can for­ ward that information to you when we get it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (b)-pass; 3.(

c) Assis tance to Schools in Remote Settlements. 2408 The Honour able Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Could the Minister just give us a gen­ eral in dication of the purpose and practice covered un der this item?

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 MRS. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chairman, through Sec­ tion 207 of The Public Schools Act the Mini ster of Ed ucation performs and has all the duties and func­ tions and powers that are vested in a School Board in cases in unorganized territory where there is no other school aut hority. The schools in remote settlements that are un der my jurisdiction in this category are Falcon Beach, with an enrolment of 41; and Hill ridge with an enrol ment of 186 students.

There are other very minor situations where there might be an indi­ vid ual student or two in unorganized territories throughout the province where we cover their ed uca­ tion in a particul ar way. The increase in the appropria­ tion in this area is a general increase and some increased costs in trans portation, fairly long trans­ portation routes for some of these children, and that allo ws for most of the increase. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.( c)-pass. 3. (

d) Teachers Retire ment Allo wance Fund. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chair man, I assume that the addi­ tional amount is ju st si mply refle ctive of the govern­ ment's portion in terms of the employee benefit scheme. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, this is a fixed amount unde r the Teachers' Pension Act and it is the amount that we are required und er the Act to put in. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)-pass. 3.(

e) Child Develop­ ment and Support Services. MR. FILMON: I wonder if the Mi nister could in dicate, there appears to be a rather major reduc tion in this item and could she in dicate the reasons for it. MRS. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chair man, the amount in this Estimate was reduced by $1,313,000 when sup­ port for Clini cian Services was shifted into the Educ a­ tion Su pport Program; that accounts for the reduc­ tion.

The remainder of the Estimates was increased by $253,000, or 19 percent, as a result of the ordina ry incremental chang es in sala ry and the ad dition of one teacher in the Rehab Centre Program at the Health Sciences Centre. So there is one additional staff per­ son in the Estimates, regu lar incremental changes and the reduction is from shi fting Cli nician Services. MR. FILMON: On that topic of the transfer of the clini cians unde r the Ed ucation Su pport Program I think the program al lowed for divisions to hire clini­ cians un der this special area.

So the Mini ster is now telling us that has been added into the Educ ation Support Program which, I guess, in effect is a reduc­ tion of fu nding that otherwise existed un der the Edu­ cation Su pport Program and somewhat of a reallo ca­ tion of fund ing. So what's the amount involved in that particul ar move then, Mr. Chairman? MRS. HEMPHILL: The amoun t involved is $2,628.7 milli on. MR. FILMON: That's the total amount on clinicians, that's the amount on clini cians that's transferred into the Educ ation Support Program? MRS.

HEMPHILL: No, the amount that he is asking is the origi nal amoun t that I gave, the $1,31 3,0 00, is the original amount. MR. FILMON: That means that the former amoun t of money that was covered unde r the Educ atio nal Sup­ port Program has been reduced by $1.3 mil lion if they're now expected to take into account these clini­ cian services that have been previously provided un der this appropriatio n. If they're now expected to provide them un der the ESP it's now a reduction of $1.3 mil lion in the ESP fun ding, in effect, is that right? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, no, there is not a reduc tion in the Ed ucational Support Program, there is an additional amount put into the Educ atio nal - the reduction is at this end. The increased amount or the same amount has increased in the Ed ucational Support Program. MR. FILM ON: Except when the Mini ster says that she has increased the funding to the ESP by $46.5 million, that she's now requiring them to do $1.3 million of additional services that was formerly provided un der the other program, then it really means that she's only added, instead of $46.5 million she's added $45.2 mil­ lion over what was there last year.

MRS. HEMPHILL: That is correct, Mr. Chair man. MR. FILMON: What is the department's role with respect to the cli nicians? Is there a development role here where the department is responsible for training or developing these clinicians or is it just a straight hiring of specially trained people to work in divisions and no other role, other than funding, on behalf of the department? MRS. HEMPHILL: The major role that the de part­ ment takes is the development role. MR. FILMON: As well, are divisions developing their own clinicians or is it pretty well all confined within this program? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chai rman, there is a little bit of crossover between the discussion taking place about clinicians now and relating to the clini cians in the field in school divisions and the item of 4.(

j) which is Child Development and Support Services where the clini­ cians that are going out into the field are actually un der that appropriation. But there is some crossover and I could answer the question now. 2409 School divisions also are taking a role in hiring and developing professional development programs for the clinicians that they hire. They have a choice pres­ ently of either hiring through the department or taking the responsibility themselves in the fie ld.

It's apparent that a nu mber of them are finding it advanta geous to turn to departmental resources where they can get portions of different kinds of specialists instead of having to hire ju st one perhaps that could ju st cover a narrow role and they seem to be leaning in that direction. MR. FILMON: How many divisions are developing

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 and hiring their own and how many are taking advan­ tage of the provincial resource? MRS. HEMPHILL: 24 divisio ns are unde r Child Development and Support Services and the rest are hiring their own. MR. FILMON: Is that in creasing or decreasing and can the Mi nister indicate what she sees as the future of this sort of arrangement? Does she see the thing eventually becoming one of the department handl ing that role excl usively or does she see the option remaining in the futu re? MRS.

HEMPHILL: It is about the same as it was before although there does appear to be a leaning towards the departmental resources and I think that is something that we wil l be looking at within the next little while. There are certain ly adva ntages to school divisions both ways and looking to decide whether to leave it the option or whether to go one way or the other is something that I think will be unde r review.

What we would want to accomplish is the availabil­ ity of resources and help that wi ll give the best utiliza­ tion and the best support to school divisions as is possible for these special professional people. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)-pass. The Member for Roblin-Russ ell. MR. McKENZIE: The Child Development and Sup­ port Services, it's broken down into what? 6 regio ns:­ Winnipeg, northern regio n, In terlake, southeastern, Parkland, there are six, are they all allo cated budgets of their own? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chair man, I wonder if we could ju st explain a little, that the major questio ns we are getting into now are related to Child Development and Su pport Services unde r (

j) and that the program that we are in now, which is Child Development and Support Services, Financial Assista nce to School Div­ isi ons, is mainly related to our providing fu nding sup­ port for edu catio nal programs in treat ment centres and hospitals, programs for blind or deaf children in school divisions. So that it's a very special component of programs in in stitutions and hospitals, is the appropriation we're on right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e)-pass; Resolut ion 51.

RE SOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $350,909,800 for Edu cation for Financial Support for Public Schools for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1983-pass. No. 4. Program Development and Su pport Services; 4. (a) ( 1) Sala ries. The Me mber for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Has the Mini ster got any opening remarks on this general area? MRS. HEMPHILL: Very minor I think, Mr. Chairman.

Si mply to indicate that there is not an inc rease of staff in this area; that the 8.1 percent in crease is a result of incremental chang es on Sal aries; that it is the same staff and the same organization in structor as we have had previously. MR. FILMON: Have there been any cha nges in admi­ nistrative staff as a result of the new government tak­ ing office? MRS. HEMPHILL: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. (a)(1)-pass; 4.(a)

(2) Othe r Expenditures-pass. The Me mber for Morris. MR. MANNESS: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, I don't kn ow if the question I'm about to ask is in the right area or not, but what I would like is a comment from the Mi nister as to her feelings as to a comment that I have heard expressed - and I won't say who expressed it and it may seem like an al most radical viewpoint, I don't know - but the view's been expressed in some areas at least that some teachers are becoming overly qual ified, particula rly those that are teaching elemen­ tary grades and it has a tremendous im pact upon, of course, the total budget.

I'm wondering if you un der­ sta nd what I' m saying and, if you do, whether you'd like to make a comment about that whole area? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, ju st to see if I do un derstand, is the Memb er for Morris wondering if I believe that teachers are being overtrai ned? MR. MANNESS: Partly yes.

I'm not tal king in certain skill areas, I'm talk ing about achieving higher aca­ demic qua lifications through al lowing themselves to move up the pay scale in the sala ry range with - (Int erjection)- that's right, those that are now attempting to obtain their Ma sters of Edu cation and things like that and maybe teaching Grade 2 and 3. The comment I have heard made is that in fact that type of qualified indi vid ual is not required to teach at that level. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, it may be that there are teachers teaching in positions that are not totally related to, or in line with, their backgr ound and aca­ demic qua lifications. In fact, I'm not sure if the Me mber for Morris was in when we discussed the research bra nch of my department, but one of the research projects that they had un dertaken related to teacher supply and to what they call teacher place­ ment. They were looking to see if in special areas like Special Needs areas or bilingual programs if the prob­ lem really was, that we did n't have enough teachers or if we had teachers who were inap propriately placed.

Now this is partly an answer to his que stion because what they found is that there are quite a considerable nu mber of teachers who have backgr ound and qual i­ fications in certain areas and are being placed in and teaching other unrelated courses. So that one, we do not have the best utilization of our human resources in terms of their training and abilities to deal with programs. 2410 Directly to the point I think that he's making although I think this is a legitimate part of the response is, I believe that the ent ire structure that's been estab lished over a long period of time operates

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 on the assumption that people receive in creases in pay for two reasons; one is increased experience and time and the other is in creased academic quali ficatio ns. Since we know that in the field of edu catio n, it is like the financial structure and the system for edu cation finance that he deplored in its complexity or indicated concern about that I unde rstand - okay? Yes, indi­ cated concern about and I un derstand and I agree with it So is the edu cation system becoming much more complex with teachers having to kn ow a great deal in special areas.

Even regular class room teache rs have to know a great deal because of the mix and variety of chil dren they're getting. They need to be better trained. They are getti ng better trained when they put the time and the effort in and they are better qual ified than the rationale has been that they are entitled to increased pay. MR.

MANNESS: Wel l, certainly in the area of Special Needs and Special Skills I have no problem accepting that Certai nly, without wanting to incur the wrath of the Teachers' Society which I certai nly do not, which half of the many members are, over opposite, I guess I have to ask the que stion on be half of many represen­ tatives of municipal concerns as to what happens when - and again I don't find fault with any teacher that wants to im prove their lot in life, that's not the point - but what happens when you're locked into a group, a fixed nu mber of teachers, given a fixed enrolme nt within a division and ju st through nothing more than teachers upgrading their edu cation qual i­ fications that are forced upon you, a much higher level of spending, an in creased bu dget and therefore an inc reased tax solicitation.

That's specifically what I'm driving at I' m not asking for an overturn in the system but I'm wondering if it's something that's recognized within your department and is it something that you con­ sider a reason to be concerned about at all? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, no, I don't think I would describe it as something that I am concerned about I accept the point that the Member for Morris is making and the sug gestion that there might be times and places when people are teaching in positions for which they do not require all of the academic training that they have.

I think that is not only possible but probable that those situations are going to occur. However, the determination and the hiring of those individ uals, the decision on the qualifications to hire and the continue d determination of use of resources within the school division and redeployment if their origi nal decisions aren't reasonable at a later date, is the responsibility of the school divisions, both to hire, to locate and utilize the human resources. I think if there are any problems there that they are in the best position to know who they have in their division and what to do with them. MR.

MANNESS: Certai nly in theory I can buy that an swer if you have a dynam ic situation. But if you have a relatively static division where few openings are coming about, wel l then you do not have that same opportunity. 2411 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: I wonder if I cou ld follow up on that discussion. Edu cation is I suppose unique in terms of the manne r in which people qual ify for additional income in the sense that it's a question of having certain degrees, not nece ssarily applying what's learned in obtaining those degrees.

I speak in terms of for instance somebody, whether or not there is any benefit to somebody who has a Master of Science or a Ph.D teaching high school mathematics, whether or not they're any more capable or qua lified of teaching it than somebody with a Bache lor's Degree and an Edu cation certificate or degree and yet there's no question that un der the system they're paid at a higher rate because they have a Ph.D and yet it may not necessarily equip them any better to teach Grade X Maths.

That whole question and there's plenty of examples of that as the Me mber for Morris has just indicated, the concern that arises in terms of bu dget in smal ler school divisio ns, it becomes more apparent where a particul ar teacher teaching primary edu cation at the lower grades in elemen tary school with a Ma ster of Arts degree qual ifying for higher salary, yet essen­ tially not being any more qua lified or capable of doing their job of teaching Grade 1 and 2, that whole que s­ tion.

Is the Mini ster having that reviewed as part of the man date that she's given either the research group or others to just review how qua lifications, in terms of edu cati onal degrees, can be in some way related to qual ifications in terms of teaching the subject matter in the areas that people are assigned in the edu ca­ tional system. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MRS. HEMPHILL: Wel l, Mr. Chair man, I think I can only reiterate what I said previously and that is the people in the best position to determine what is required is the school board who is responsible and has the aut hority to hire.

I do not believe that they make their choices just based on academic qua lifica­ tions. That will be one of the factors that they look at The needs of the school division and the backgrou nd, experience and the openings that are available wi ll be other items that they look at I do realize that smal ler school divisions with stable populations or with a declining enrol ment don't have as much flexibility and may not be able to move per­ son nel around to get the best use out of them.

That, among many others, are some of the many problems that we're all struggling with in the school system related to the declining enr olment issue whic h we all un derstand. MR.

FILMON: I think that raises a number of issues that teache rs I know have brought to my attention and one is, if you say it's up to the school division and there is somebody who has perhaps, a post graduate degree or even two and would like a teaching position because of their own personal career goals that they've chosen, and because of the number of the degrees that they have, they may be too qual ified to get into the system today and they're prevented from getting into the system because boards won't hire

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 them because they carry too great a price tag. There­ fore, it's a detriment to their be in g employed in a career field which they choose and might well be prepared to enter at some lower level but they have, one thei r degrees are evalua ted , an automatic classi­ fication that must be paid.

I've talked to many teachers who say, "I would take a lower cla ssification in the in terests of gett in g employment in a field that I choose and wish to pursue as a career but I can't because of the structure." The second thin g is, that di vis ions don't have a choice when somebody is hired and achieves tenure and then proceeds to take the second and third and fourth degrees while on the job, because of the many opportuni ties that all of us acknowledge are avai lable to teachers and others in society to take evenin g classes. summer sessions. or even on sabbatical take another degree, post graduate degree, which auto­ matic ally qual ifies them for a higher paid classifica­ tion and they're not doing any thing dif ferent when they come back and aren't necessa rily better qual ified to do what they were doin g when they left, dependin g on what degree area they choose.

It may be just simply something that's in their particular sphere of in terest but not perti nent to what they're going to be teach in g. So the structure doesn't al low for that kind of choice -making by the school board. They're either locked in with somebody who has ten ure or thei r only option to dete rminin g whether or not they should hire that person is not to hire them because they carry too high a price tag because of degrees. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, as is any large bureauc racy or system. there are goin g to be some problems attached to regu lations or criteria and I suppose this one is no exception. In general terms I would suggest the in creased education that they're gett in g, more and more I think is bei ng applied because they are moving in to fields and areas where they feel they are deficient.

I kn ow a lot of teachers who are going on for additional train­ ing and in fact. they are recogn izing what thei r defi­ ciencies are in terms of their in itial training and a lot of it might be related to such thin gs as Special Needs where they have a regula r cl assroom and yet have to have a better unde rstanding and kn owledge, or they are de cidin g to move in to a particula r field and upgrade their kn owledge in that way. My general feel ing is, that in most cases there would be some in creased knowledge, some improve­ ment, un derst anding and abi lit y to do thei r job.

In terms of priorities, concerns. it is not un der active consideration at this ti me. I received the points made by both members on this matter. MR. FILMON: I have no hesitation in agreein g with the Min ister that we could addr ess that and accept her commen ts in general terms but the specifics of the matter are, as I've pointed out. that it is a problem and it will con tinue to be a problem unl ess somebody t3kes the in itia tive to study the matter and see whether or not we can overcome these specific prob­ lems that are occurring.

Jus t simply to say in general terms, somebody is going to do a better job, is lik e saying that somebody who is a quali fied plumber and well occupie d and well employed as a plumber should go and take a Ma ster's Degree in Mechanical Engine ering if he wants to come back and conti nue to be a plumber, in general terms he'll kn ow more about what he's doing. That's right but he's not li kely to be paid more if he remains a plumber even if he has a Master's Degree in Mechani­ cal Engine ering, but if he were a teacher he would be automatically paid more, so that's the problem as I see it.

I kn ow we're not going to solve it in the Esti mates process but I say that the problem has existed and will cont inue to exist un less there is a desire and an ini tia­ tive to change the system whereby people are paid more for their degrees if it's agreed between them and the di vision or somebody in aut hority that their degrees are relevant and important to their further­ ance as an in structor, as a teacher, and will further enh ance their professional ab il ity within the di visi on but the di vision doesn't have that choice.

If a ten ured teacher makes that dete rmina tion to go on to further degrees right now, the di vision just pays the shot as they walk in and demon strate their new degree. give evidence of havin g their new degree, regard less of whether it's in any area that is relevant to what they're doing now or going to be doing in future for that di vision, so if there were a third-party kind of option to the di vision then the Min ister's comments may have been relevant but there isn' t at the moment.

I say that is a problem and I say that that's somethin g that we perhaps, are ju st urging the Min ister to take a look in to in her di scussions with Mani toba Teachers' Society, Manit oba Association of School Trustees and others who are int erested in this particu lar matter in the field of educa tion. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a) (2) - the Me mber for Morris. MR.

MANNESS: I would just lik e also to sum up my feeli ngs in that whole area and reiterate some of the thi ngs the Me mber for Tuxedo has just said. 2412 I think the time has come when it's time for any Min ister of this Crown. particul arly the Min ister of Ed uca tion, to begin to swing maybe a.li ttle bit away from the Teachers' Society in this area because the . school board desperately is look ing for opportuni ties at this time to cut expenses.

I can tell you without cutting staff, if I have a hired man on my farm and he's achi eving $30,000 and somebody comes along that can do the job as well at $15,000, these days the option to replace that person will have to be there for the good of the whole system. I'm saying that and there's nothin g di fferent in this case whatsoever so I hope the Min ister would look in to it. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Ch airman, ju st a short response, I think, to the concern. I have had nu mer­ ous meetings in the last five months with the major organizations.

Teachers' Society, trustees, superin­ tendents, who would be in a position, along with the Board, to be concerned both about professional qual­ ifications and bud getary controls. Each one of them had an opportuni ty to present to me a lis t of major concerns and problems facing them with an ind ica­ tion of what was the most important and I can simply say to the members opposite that nobody has raised

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 this. Now, I'm not saying that that doesn't mean there are individ ual problems; I'm not saying that when we sit down for continued discussions there can't be some exploration to see if anybody is sensing this as a problem but it was not raised by the School Trustees as a major problem of Boards at thi s time. MR. FILM ON: The Mini ster can tell these groups the next time she meets with them that she has now met with Memb ers of the Legis lature who have expressed a concern about this particul ar item and therefore she can add it to the list of topics that she discusses next time. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4. (a)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. 4.(

b) Curri culum Development, 4.( b)( 1) Sala ries. The Me mber for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I sense that there may be a nu mber of areas un der Curri culum Development that we should be discussing and perhaps the Minis­ ter could begin by indicating what the ini tiatives cur­ rently are, in terms of Curri culum Development, by her department and what items she sees as coming forth on the horizon in terms of Curric ulum Develop­ ment at the moment.

I believe there are a number of advisory bodies that fun nel in information and sit on this and perhaps she could tell us about their struc­ ture and makeup and their terms of refere nce. MRS. HEMPHILL: Yes, Mr. Chair man, perhaps a bit of an overview. We do have the two areas. We have Curric ulum Development Branch and Curric ulum Services and I imagine that some of the que stions and discussion wi ll overlap between the two departments.

In terms of salaries for th is department there has been no ad diti onal staff and there is si mply a 1.6 percent increase that is due to incremental changes and my recol lect ion is that it is a smal ler percentage than perhaps some of the other departments because of the nu mber of people being on maximum. Sometimes when you have youn ger staff there are more of them getting the incremental cha nge that he was just dis­ cussing related to teachers. The other expend itures have a 10 percent increase and that is due to general inc reases in costs. There is an additional program in this

section Curri culum Development Bra nch and it is an in crease un der Other Expenditures of $149,000. Now, some of it is a general increase and $49,000 is due to iflation and regular increased costs for the overall department; $100,000 is for inc reasing support for Heritage Lan­ guage Programs.

It is to continue the work in the Uk rainian Bilingual program that was un dertaken as a pilot project by the former government and whic h, if we get into a di scus sion about the value of Heritage Langua ge Programs, the study that was done by the research department has very interesting and good information about the value of that three-year project which has now been turned into a regular program going into Grades 4, 5 and 6.

The Curric ulum Development Branch does an overall review of school programs, all areas of school programming and the review that has been un der­ taken over the previous years has been very active review, is al most complete up to the end of Grade 9, in 2413 other words, the curric ulum review process that has been un dertaken has heavily concent rated on the eleme ntary schools and they have al most completed the review in that area.

What is left is the review of the curriculum in high schools and while it was ide ntified as the next place where work had to be done, and we recognized that too, we have not yet begun the process. A fair amoun t of the fu nding in this department is for the curri culum committees that the Me mber for Tux edo mentioned and I think I was both surprised and pleased to find that we presently now have about 450 teachers in the province who are actively working, in some way or other, to revise and develop both curri culum and resources and materials to go along with the curri culum.

I think that probably is enough to get us off the mark on this. MR. FILM ON: Mr. Chair man, I did want to pursue the growth of Heritage Langua ge Programs and I also wanted to, as part of that discussi on, talk about French, Uk rainian, German and now Hebrew so I'm not sure, since I suppose the one that's largest in scope and has the most history attached to it, in terms of experience in our province, is in terms of French lan guage development. I wonder whether or not the Mi nister will permit me to perhaps ju st leave it all for discussion un der the BEF or shal l we discuss it here. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chair man, I appreciate the member saying that some of the points, or the discus­ sion, wi ll be much the same related to the different programs, however, I think we would be better - I don't know if better off - I wi ll al low the member to do what he would like to do in terms of asking questions. My feeling is that it would make more sense to raise the questions related to Core and Im mersion French and that program un der the Bureau and to have any dis­ cussions or questions related to the expansion or movement in the He ritage Program unde r the cate­ gory that we're in right now. MR.

FILMON: What are the plans with respect to the expansion of Heritage Langua ges, other than Fre nch, at the moment with the department and within the overall public school system of Ma nitoba. In saying that I refer the Minister to the fact that I believe that the Metro Toronto School Board just last week passed a resolution which would permit the development of heritage langua ge programs in something like 20 to 30 different lan gua ges within Metro Toronto. Given their ethnic and lan guage cross

section that they have there it's rather staggeri ng but apparently they have passed the, shall we say, the Enabling legislation that would permit them to go into 20 to 30 different lan­ gua ges of instruction in heritage langua ge core pro­ grams. So, is that the kind of thing that the Mi nister sees on the horizon here in Ma nitoba or what are they plans? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chair man, the plans are two­ fold. One is to, I think, si mply continue with what had begun and what had been put in place previously and to develop a comprehensive policy related to this question because it is a very big question and because it has a lot of potential, a lot of expectation perhaps

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 attached to it. We are as the Mem ber for Tuxedo realizes. one of the most multicultural provinces in Canada and that our mino rities are no longer the minority. Our minori­ ties are now the majority. So, I think it's clear that there is a lot of potential int erest in this area. The Uk rainian Bilingual Program that the former governme nt un dertook was really a very good pilot project. It was established on a very sou nd solid basis and it is giving us good information in which to look at expansion in heritage programs in other areas and we wi ll be using it.

It had a very good built-in eval uation and it had tremendous support from both the broad community related to that ethnic population and the parental community related to the schools. Right now, the Uk rainian Bilingual Program has gone, as I said, from its pilot project stage in Grade 1, 2 and 3; it has moved into a regular program and is moving into Grades 4, 5 and 6.

Apart from that we are contin uing the activities that had begun in rela tion to some program for Portugese and Philipino and the curri culum develop ment work has been going on for practically a year and is now ready for some imple­ mentation in the school system in September. Other than following through with those and that is what the additional $100,000 is for. I think it's our intention to look at what's happening in Toronto; look what's happening in other places and come in with an overall comprehensive policy to deal with this very im portant issue. MR.

FILMON: Wel l, I'm pleased to hear the com­ ments of the Minister and to un dersta nd a bit about the thrust that's being pursued in this area. Let me say first ly, that I am a great supporter of alternate lan ­ guage programmin g in our edu cation system as an enric hment; as an avenue for minority groups to maintain not only their cu lture but their langua ge heritage and so on.

As a parent of two chil dren who have been in French Im mersion programming and as a product of a family where English was not a first langua ge, I recognize and would like to further and foster the development of this type of programming.

But looking at it in its most objective terms, I say to the Minister that the evalua tion and the ana lysis of what any new programming thrusts does to the exist­ ing edu cational framework and structure is vitally important not only in the assurance to the community at large that we are not, by transferring resources out of one area and putting them in to another area, dam­ aging the existing frame work and reducing the qual­ ity of edu cation that is available.

There is a dang er of that, of course, if heretofore 100 percent of your resources were chan neled in a certain area and somewhere down the road 25 percent of those resources have been chann eled off into lan guage programming in other lan guages, then that will have some spin-off effect and a react to every action there's a reaction on the other side where the loss of resour­ ces will be felt in certain ways that are not apparent, initi ally.

Ju st to ens ure that the community at large and the support of all Man itobans for their public ed ucatio nal system re mains at a high level, I woul d suggest that the Mi nister ought to, through the research branch , through the curri culum develop ment br anch, or whatever vehicle is at her disposa l, ensure that all of the factual backgr ound inf ormation of the effects of this programming is available so that in fut ure as we continue to expand it or develop it in other ways, we're on solid footi ng in being able to discuss it, debate it and present it to the public as a wise and good means of en hancing the edu cational system in Ma ni toba and avoid the ki nds of confronta tion that are starting to occur as teachers tear the loss of their own jobs because they happen to be capable only of instruc­ tion in one langua ge - being English - and they see their job future as being threatened by resources being put into these other language programming areas and I see that happening.

I see that happening in terms of the confronta tion and an xieties that are occurring throughout school divisions in Ma nitoba but princi pally within Winnipeg area school divisio ns, as schools are tran sferred into partial second-lang uage programming schools. We now have a situation where one school is carrying two and wi ll possibly be carrying three different langua ge programming immersion programs if the board makes the decision as such.

So when you have im mersion programming in three different langua ges going on in one school, I think there is the potential for parents and students to say, is this affecting me if my choice is not to go into one of those immersion langua ge pro­ gramming areas? Am I going to be on the short end of the stick and having an infe rior qual ity of edu cation as a result?

I think all of those things are far too complex and comprehens ive for the Minister to give me any an swers on today. 2414 I say with respect to the possibility that there will be storm clouds on the horizon that she or future Mi nis­ ters will have to deal with as people develop resistan­ ces to what have started out to be a very very fine initiative, if it isn't carried on in the best possible means of having the ba ckup information and knowing at all times what the transfer of resources does to the rest of the framework of edu cation throughout the province.

I say that it's not only the focus on these new initia­ tives but it's the focus on the back up and the eval ua­ tion to these ini tiatives that's going to avoid the prob­ lems in the future. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman. I quite agree with the concerns and points that were raised by the Member forT uxedo. That's why I was pleased with the pilot project, it had a built-in eva lu ation program that not only did the technical things from the school but really looked at attitudes and effects outside. Just to give a very quick

summary because I found it very interesting, they learned that the children in the Uk rainian bilingual program did as well in their other courses as the other children did . They did as well in their English lan gua ge program as the other children did and in addition they were learning a second lan­ guage. While I found that interesting, I found some of the response I got from the parents when I went out to speak to them one night to tell them that the program was going into Grades 4, 5 and 6. I said what are you finding about this program? Do you see any differ­ ence in the children?

What do you think about the program? They recognized the ability in terms of cur­ ri culum and program but they were saying that it

made a difference to the relationship within their fam­ ily, that there seemed to be instead of being ashamed of the language and having grandparents speak the langua ge children now had a much im proved rela­ tionship with grand parents where they could talk to them in the la ngu age and they were happy with it. It also im proved the ability of the parents in their own langua ge because the child ren were chal lenging them and teaching them and they were kind of picking up their socks, so to speak, to keep up with the childr en.

The most interesting thing of all I thought, was that it seems to have a very strong effect on identity, on self-image and ide ntity on an un dersta nding and a feeling of who they are and what they are and since I think we all recognize that that is going to have a lot to do with how a child does apart from their intellectual abilities, then that as a benefit of a program like that is very im portant for us to recognize.

We will look at things like the ad ditional costs, the al location of resources and distribution of resources and certai nly the pilot projects and the things that we are doing now wi ll give us direct inf ormation about what those in creased costs are. It may be that they're not as much as we think they are. Children have to be taught and they have to be taught by people. It may be more a case of proper locati on, proper use of people than it is at add-ons and we'll be looking at that very closely. MR.

FILMON: I'm sure there are all those positive ben efits and even more than those that have been briefly listed by the Mi nister.

There are some negative ones and since I think we ought to be open about our concerns, the negative ones are that for whatever reason teachers, ad mini strators enco urage al most a segregation in some schools which leads to chil dren being tol d not to play at recess or noon hour with children who are speaking another langua ge - it may be English - and they're being told this will affect adversely their im mersion programming and you should only play in the playground with those who are in the imme rsion program and so on and so forth.

So it has da maging social effects because I think of ill ­ considered ins tructions and ill- considered objectives on the part of maybe some of those who are involved in the programming. So I think those are all things that obviously are not going to fall on the Min ister's head because they're decisions made within divisio ns, since the authority for admi nistering the programs lies within the divisions and not on the Mi nister's part.

But I'm saying that if there is an overall look at the situation being taken that those conside rations ought to be made because social val ues and interpersonal relationships are just as im portant to people's educ a­ tion as are the things that they gain from within the cla ssroom, so that's all part of, as I say, the support mechanism that ought to be in place to ensure the success of these programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 4.(b )(1 ) Sala ries-the Me mber for Tuxedo. MR.

FILMON: I wonder if I can get a comment from the Minister on the devel opment of curri culum chang es in general - and I realize that I may be 11Ma y, 1982 skating between (

b) and (

c) here - but du ring the recent annual meeting of the Ma nitoba Teac hers' Society comments were made about implemen ting changes in curricula too rapidly, or without suf ficient back up materia l, or people being asked to cha nge curric ula and having to do a great deal of their own digging and spade work because materials weren't ready and so on and so forth. I know that the Minister expressed sympathy towards this and I hope that her sympathy was perhaps only related to the process or the lack of support and not to the general thought of developing new curri culum and chang ing curricula.

If we're going to say that there's no good argument for cha nging curri cula from time to time and that we ought not to be cha nging too quickly then - this is a world of cha nge and I think somebody said that the only thing that you can be sure of in future the only constant wi ll be chan ge - that's the only thing that any of us can look forward to with any consistency. So if the world is cha nging then obvi ously the curric ula which we are utilizing to teach our children has to cha nge to keep pace with what's happening out in the world.

I know it's all too easy to be sympathetic and the Minister wi ll probably be on safe ground both with admini strators, school boards and teachers if she says, let's go slow on chan ge, but there should ulti­ mately be a happy medium. I kn ow I' ve heard teachers get upset over the fact that they've chan ged the entire curri culum in a certain subject because now they have to throw out all their notes and start all over again developing a new set of notes and lectures.

I' ve heard school boards get very upset because they have to throw out all the text­ books that they had for that particular subject and we've now adopted a new textbook and we're into a new curri culum so the Mi nister will find ready and willing ears for people who do not support change in curri culum. I do not believe it would be a good one and I do not believe that it's one that she supports but I'll be inter­ ested on hearing her position.

In particul ar, when I initially heard that there was only a very minor increase in funding for this area, I wondered if there was now going to be a de-em phasis on curric ulum development and change. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, yes, I'm quite happy to respond to the points that the Memb er for Tuxedo raised regarding curric ulum because I quite agree with him about the im portance of curri culum devel­ opment and cha nges in t:urri culum. I think the curric­ ulum in our schools is actu ally the heart and the life blood of the program to a large extent.

The concerns that have been raised are not related to chang ing curri culum when it needs to be chan ged . In fact, I think we need constant review to make sure that we're at least making some attempt to keep pace with the rapidly cha nging times that we find ourselves in because cha nge is the order of the day in our society now and our children have to be prepared to adapt to tremendous cha nge. I think it's widely rec­ ognized that we've done a fairly good job of develop­ ing curri culum in the last little while.

We've got a fairly good system of review and people in the field to review and make the cha nges and develop resources and materials to go along with it. Where, I believe, we 2415

Tuesday, 11 May, 19 82 have fallen down is implementation, where we could improve is implementation. I think that we have pre­ pared the curr iculum in the department and with the help of people in the field, but the timin g and the process for gett ing it out into the hands of teachers and giving them in formation and support for the changes and for the new curri culum and the timin g of it where there have been situations where they might have been hit with several courses at a time and it's very hard to accommodate and adapt in a short period of time.

That's the area that we have to improve, is the process of gett in g the curriculum in place and hel ping in giving support to teachers who are goin g to have to put it in the cla ssroom. I do not see a downgrad in g of this item in the department. It 's one that I give a high priority and a lot of importance to. The reason for not seeing a major in crease in the department is that we're going to take some additional time to do the plannin g, to decide what, if any, additional resources or support are needed in the department.

I did n't just want to add lik e Topsy, saying this is an important area, we' ll get more people without havin g done some conscious think in g and plannin g about who they needed to be and what they needed to be doing. It's because I give it a high priority that it's a status quo in this budget because we're going to take a good look at it and then come in with specific requests in what I believe will be the important areas. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Mem ber for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Wel l, in the implementation phase, I'm sure that one of the problems is getting the teachers out there who have no

part in the curricu lum devel­ opment committees and I kn ow that there are 450 teachers out of I don't kn ow how many tens of thou­ sands who are in the process and I'm sure that it's di ffi cult to get them all to buy in to the ide a of cha ng­ in g a curriculum entirely or makin g major or drastic changes in it if they've had no part to play in the recommenda tions that lead up to it.

So that is a prob­ lem of the system and perhaps crea tively can be worked on by the Min ister and all the various in terest groups such as MTS or MAST or others to ensure that the implementation phase matches the kind of care and attention that's given in the development phase, so that the two get together. Is this the area that I ought to be aski ng the Min ister for whether there are in itiatives be in g taken or mate­ rials bei ng developed with respect to sex ed ucation? Is this something that the Minis ter's department is worki ng on at the moment? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairm an, the provi nce does not presently req ui re the teac hin g of sex edu cation in the schools, but they are prepared to give support and hel p to any school di vis ion who decide s to go in to the program and that kind of in formation is not separated as a separate curri culum or program, but it is built in to other curri culum and programs lik e the Lif estyles Program where there will be components within the course that they can eithe r follow or delete as they require or as they wish.

What we are findin g, though, is that although it has not been manda ted that there is a tremendous in creased in terest in br in ging in programs in to more and more schools and that this is being supported in large measure by commun ities while it's sti ll a sensi­ tiv e area and there are still some school di vis ions in some schools who don't think it's appropriate or do not want to get in to it or do not have the personn el to handle it.

This is one of the big problems; it's not just deciding to put programs like that in to schools, but it's havin g quali fied people comfortable, not only capable but capable and knowledgeable and comfor­ table enough to deal with such a sensitiv e matter. So that some of the process and some of the activities will be related to the ab ili ty of school di visions and school boards and teachers to handle it.

Apart from that, it appears that there is an in creas­ ing public recognition of some of the problems related to the very significant inc reases in teenage pregnancie s in younger and younger girls, where we have a situation now where we have child ren bea ring chi ldren in fairly large nu mbers and there is less rel uc­ tance and more support for these programs. Where the support is there, our department acts as a resource and help to school di visions and to teachers with the program. MR.

FILM ON: Is the Min ister or her department con­ side ring developing then sex educ ation curri cula that could be used throughout the provinc e? 2416 MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I do not see us dev eloping a special course called 'Sex Edu cation,' si nce the topic in li fe is not separated from a lot of other thin gs; nor do I think it should be isolated and separated in curri culum.

I think it properly belongs in a broader program and my feelin g is that we would continue to develop and expand and improve the cur­ riculum in that area along those li nes, contained within other areas where it can logically be developeEl. MR. FILMON: What role does the Min ister see· her department playing with respect to cens orship of materials used in curricula within the province? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Cha irman, presently in past practice and the continuing practice is that we do not cens or as the Department of Educa tion, but we are inv olved in a very extensive evaluation of materials and books that are made availa bl e through the ed uca­ tion system and we partici pate in this evalua tion sys­ tem with other western provinc es, so that materials are reviewed and evaluated and li sts with in formation related to them are made available to school divi sions.

In the field of li terature I might just separate the evaluation of some materials from the field of lit era­ ture where we do not do an eva lu ation but we li st books that are avai lable and the decisions are up to the school divisi ons to decide what they're going to have in their schools. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd would lik e to ask the Min ister whether it's her in tention to make public the in ternal report that is to be prepared in this whole area? You said you were going to do an

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 internal review. MRS. HEMPHILL: I'm confused, Mr. Chair man, about what internal report the Member for Morris ... MR. MANNESS: In your introdu ctory remarks you made comment to the fact that you were doing an internal review. MRS. HEMPHILL: I can cl arify that then. The review that I was talking about was the ongoing review of curri culum that is being done by the Curric ulum Committees related to courses and programs in the schools. MR.

MANNESS: I'm wondering, does Ma nitoba have its own specific curri culum or, in fact, if it does not, would there be some opportunity to work more closely with other provinces in an attempt again to make more efficient this whole process, where maybe more minds could work towards the same end and that some attempt cou ld be made to develop a curric­ ulum more appropriately devoted to, let's say, the Prairie Provinces? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I think activity takes place in both arenas on this issue.

A large part of it, of course, is done in Ma nitoba where we are developing our own curricu lum, but there is also more and more co-operation and contact at the national level and that would usually be with the many national organiza­ tions that are involved or concerned with edu cation. It cou ld be the Cou ncil of Mi nisters, it cou ld be national school trustee or teacher bodies where they do take on projects and look at some aspects of curri culum nati onally. A large amoun t of it would be done provin­ cially and there is some co-ordination and effort. MR.

MANNESS: Would the Mini ster not agree that there would have to be some opportunity for savings in this area because, for instance, the Prairie Pro­ vince, where we basica lly share a common heritage and backgr ound, that indeed, with a popula tion of five million people, that supposedly we could reduce the number of planne rs that we have in this whole area. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chair man, the Memb9r for Morris is quite correct when he sug gests that there could be, and perhaps are, a nu mber of areas where there is a reasonable amount of common ground and that everybody does not have to go off perhaps and invent their own wheel.

The organization that I menti­ oned, the Counc il of Mi nisters, has had a Curri culum Review Committee attached to it and it did examine curricu lum across the country with a view to ident ify­ ing the areas, like science and mathematics, where there would be a lot of common ground and where materials and resources and curriculum could be de­ veloped and shared on a national basis. MR. MANNESS: Wel l, hopefull y, the Mi nister will continue to lend her support to that developing trend. I'm also a little concerned about the whole area of censorship or eva lua tion in regard, particul arly, to the literary fi eld.

I kn ow there's a particul ar situation in my riding where, in fact, there's a book review committee developed in an attempt to prevent a major outbreak amongst a community. One half the community terri­ bly opposed to the incl usion of certain books and the other half, of course, seeing nothing wrong with them. I'm wondering if the department has a role, some in creased role, to play in this area? I don't kn ow if it's a form of guidance or whatever but I see this becoming an inc reasingly greater concern, certainly in some certain regions, rural areas of this province.

I'm wondering if the Minister is content to say that, in fact, no, let the local areas completely look after their own problems in that area and make their decisions or, in fact, is it going to become serious enough that the Provincial Government should attempt to help as these particula r problems develop? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chair man, first of all, the Department of Edu cation does take a role in eval uat­ ing and looking at and listing what they feel is approp­ riate literature so that there is a list or in formation about what has been reviewed and an in dication that what are on those lists will be appropriate.

I suppose it doesn't go quite as far as to study and list and review what isn't appropriate so that, in the first case, school divisions and schools, there is an abundanc e of litera­ ture and resource material available wit hin the list that you can get from the Department of Edu cation that has been evaluated and considered suitable, so that there is lots of potential for sufficient resources if you ju st follo wed that.

It does not preclude people from bringing in or making decisions to buy or have resources that are not on the list and I suppose we'd be rel uctant to do that since no list can be that comprehensive, and you might be ru ling out very good and very val uable mate­ rial si mply because you've never come across it or you haven't reviewed it.

I'm not sure that it is just a concern for people in a rural area, I think it is, perhaps, a matter for a community and a school with a lot of involvement, perhaps, if there are sen sitive areas between parents and staff and teachers in making what, in the end, are really value ju dgments and relate to attitudes and val ues in a community which may vary from place to place, so that they can access to information that wi ll have them avoiding some things that might be appropriate should they wish and they have the lee-way to have additional ones if they want. 2417 You mentioned a parents' book review committee which is a very good idea where they get, not only professional atti tude s towards books and materials, but the feelings of the pa runts in the community at the same time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: I just wondered, in following up on that, if the Mini ster believes that morality and value s ought to be taught in the public schools. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chair man, I think it's very diffi­ cult - in fact, probably al most im possible - for any­ body to teach anything without communicating atti­ tude s. I think that we might try or might think they could do it. My guess is that they can not, that we're always communi cating attitudes and val ues in any­ thing that we do when we're dealing with children. I do

Tuesday, 11 May, 19 82 not see it as a like sex edu cation - as a separate component or a separate curricu lum. I think that we teach our you ng people from the time that they come into the schools about respect for other people and for property and about what is fair and just. So, I think that we are doing that on a daily basis and that we also teac h them not by what we say but by what we do as adu lts. So, it's always being done in every thing we do, but I do not see it being done on a formal basis where you develop a curri culum that would predetermine what it was. MR.

FILM ON: How about the question, specifi cally of religious exercises in school such as having opening prayers and that sort of thing? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I might have to take the que stion un der advisement. I do kn ow that there are some schools that have religious exercises and some schools who do not. We are not quite clear at this time whether it is optional and where the decision is made, but we'll check that out for you ; whether it's in The School Act as a requirement still. We're not qui te sure. MR.

FILMON: When the Mini ster brings back that information, could she also venture an opinion as to what she believes ought to be the case? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkf ield Park. MRS. HAMMOND: Yes, just brief ly, Mr. Chair man, following that point Are schools required to have opening exercises such as the chil dren singing the national anthem? MRS. HEMPHILL: Perhaps we'll cover both of those questions if we can unde r the same Order for Return, if you want to call it that.

I wonder while I'm on my feet if I can give the Me mber for Kirkf ield Park the informa­ tion she asked me last night about the outdoor educ a­ tion centre in River East. I think I rememb er what her questions were and I'll give her a

summary of the program and then if she has any specific que stions she can fol low up. The River East School Division did put in a request for approval to establish an outdo or edu cation cent re outside of their division in an area southwest of Por­ tage la Prairie. This request did receive quite consid­ erable and quite in-depth review by my department prior to approval being given because there were a nu mber of concerns raised and they likely fall into the same category as perhaps the concerns that the Member for Kirkfield Park might have.

They were related to who pays and what the additional costs would be and where the money would come from and then other matters related to the program when the Mani toba Department of Natural Resources Land Branch had approved the lease of a quarter

section of Crown land for that purpose. In my communication with the school division we made it very clear to them and made sure that they were in agree ment that all fin ancial responsibilities for this program were to be met with no provincial fund ing . In other words, they required Mini sterial approval to provide the program outside of the boun- daries of the school division, but it was not an area that is presently fu nded unde r any existing category or any special grant category.

So, that if they want to continue with it we're required to commit an unde r­ standing that they were taking the responsibility on themselves. Staff from my department consulted with Mr. Rouse, who is the chairman of the division, and received the assurance that the school division was initiating the project with full knowledge of all implications and that I believe we had information that sug gested that the estimated cost by the division was going to be about $30,000.00.

They were plann ing a 1,500 square feet of construction on the rented Crown land and that the division was going to provide seed money of $5,000 and the staff and students were to raise the remainde r and operate the building.

The building construction students are to be involved with the construction of the facility and it's intended use is outdoor educ ation, survival trai ning, science projects, cross-country ski­ ing, etc. 2418 I, after reviewi ng and going over all the concerns from my department, I aut horized them to establish an outdoor edu cation centre and to construct the building of approximately 1,500 square feet on rented Crown land providing that the construction met with the approval of all relevant authorities inclu ding Department of Labour, Health and Mani toba Hydro. MRS.

HAMMOND: Yes, I thank the Mi nister for that answer. The $30,000 with $5, 000 coming from the division; the division, I take it, from then on would be covering the operating costs? Did they have any idea of what the cost for this program would be? The ongoing costs? MRS.

HEMPHILL: In the material that I have here I don't see an estimate of the ongoing costs - the operating costs - althou gh, there wi ll be costs, simply to indicate that the question of coveri ng the operating costs was raised with the school division and it was cle ar and they agreed that the operating costs would be picked up by the school divisio n. MRS. HAMMOND : Yes, one of the questions I have about the curricu lum and the curri culum develop­ ment, does the Department of Educa tion use any lay people on their committees; the curri culum develop­ ment committees? MRS. HEMPHILL: No, we do not. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Me mber for Kirkfie ld Park. MRS. HAMMOND: I wonder if the Mi nister possibly might consider using lay people on some of the com­ mittees that are deali ng with the curri culum espe­ ci ally now when, not just parents, but people in the community seem to want to be so much involved in their schools and if she would give that some consideration. The other questions I have are about the Heritage Programs. I. wonder, just for information if the Mi nis­ ter would indi cate, are the bil ing ual programs or the Heritage Programs, what is the percentage of the Ian -

Tuesday, 11 May, 1982 guage versus the English language, 75-25, 50-50 or what? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, in the Uk rainian bil­ ingual program that is in place, 50 percent of the curric ulum is taught in the Uk rainian langua ge, social studies, health, particul ar courses are taught in the langua ge. I wonder if i can comment on the points raised by the Me mber for Kirkfield Park related to the curricu­ lum review.

While the curri culum committees that are developing the curri culum do not have lay people on them presently, they are made up of professionals in the fi eld, largely teache rs with knowledge in that par­ ticular subject matter, that their program review committees do have a broad representation that would include representatives of - I'm not sure if it would be home and school - but certai nly the Mani­ toba Association of School Trustees and organiza­ tions like that are represented on the review commit­ tees.

I sat on a nu mber of those myself, on the eleme ntary review committee and on the articu lation council and I considered myself a lay person on those committees. I would also like to suggest to the member that I considered the point she made about the involvement of parents on curri culum review, it would be an inter­ esting one and one that I wo uld take un de r consideration. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour is 4:30, I' m interrupting proceedings for Private Memb ers' Hour. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION COMMITTEE REPORTS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR.

HARA PIAK: The Committee has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report same and asks leave to sit again. Mr. Speake r, I move, seconded by the Me mber for River East, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR RES. NO. 5 - SOTH ANNIVERSARY OF INTERNATIONAL PEACE GARDEN MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Time for Private Memb ers' Hour. The Resolut ion of the Honourable Me mber for Turtle Mou ntain. The Honourable Member for Kirkfie ld Park has 17 minutes remaining. MRS. HAMMOND: I have finished, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Arthur. MR.

DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, may I request the member's time that she forgave, I have quite a few things I'd like to say about the Peace Garden. Mr. Speaker, I want to. as we ll as my col leagues and the members of the gover nment who spoke on this reso­ lu tion, first of all compliment the Member for the Tur­ tle Mount ain consti tuency, a constituency within which the Peace Garden lies as we ll as a neighbour­ ing constituency to the one which I represent and, of course, the Peace Garden is a very im portant part of not only, I'm sure, his consti tuenc y but mine as well.

It provides an area of the province for people to go, relax and to have family func tions and carry out many activities of family gatherings as well as the many activities that have been ident ified or mentioned by some of the previous speakers. Mr. Speaker, the area in which the Peace Garden is located is truly one of peaceful ness and an area that I think that many Ma nitobans from not ju st in rural Mani toba, but I would hope that a lot more of the urban citizens of the province would take the oppor­ tu nity to proceed to spend some time at.

Of course, when one has the opportunity to visit the beautiful surroundings and the area which not only has frien dly people, but people who have had the amb ition and foresig ht to recognize that part of this province and this country as a symbol of peace. I think probably, Mr.

Speaker, I have in my own family upbringing in relationship with that kind of a bound ary that has been mentioned in the resol ution. an un defended boundary, I can have a little clo ser feeling for the kind of reaso ning that it is un defended and has been un defended and probably can remain unde fended because of the family ties that are con­ nected both north and south of the boundary. I happen to have one older member of my family that was born in the Un ited States because of our proxim­ ity to the 49th Para ll el and the U.S.

Bou nda ry it was closer to go to a nursing home or a hospital facility in the Un ited States than it was to proceed to a town in Mani toba or in Canada. So when one has a direct member of his family born or a citizen for several years of his life as an American citi zen, you have an und erstanding that really because there is an ima gi­ nary line or because there is a dividing line there of an imagin ary sort, that really there isn't anything chang es our desires as a nation and their desires as a nation upon which the private individual and the freedoms of those in divid uals can be protected .

I have a pretty good feeling for that kind of a closeness, at the same time respecting one ano<he r's Constitutional rights and, of course, the gover ning system which we have both had in our different count ries as well as many other members of my mother's family are living in the south side of the boun dary, the same with some of my father's ancestors. So it's a matter of having family ties both sides of the bounda ry and unde rstanding that really we have the same kinds of objectives. 2419 So to the member for introducing the resolut io n, Mr.

Speaker, from the people of Arthur, I am sure that all my constituents from the Arthur Constituency would want to congratulate the forefathers or those people who had foresight to establish this monu men­ tal piece of ground, this monumental area in Man itoba along the Un ited States bou nda ry. I think the people would be pleased that I were to congratulate the peo-

Tuesday, 11 May, 19 82 pie who have put their lif e and effort in to supporting and main tain ing the grou nds. At the same time they feel very comfortab le , I'm sure, being residents along the bo unda ry of the 49th Para ll el which, of course, south of it li es the Un ited States of America, one of our most important and treasured trading partners. As a member of the agriculture communi ty, I think I can feel comfortable in saying that we have enjoyed a good rela tionship.

I think we can continue to enjoy a good relatio nship unle ss we see the attitudes of the Americans turn somewhat against us with the kind of Reagan ba shin g we are now see ing comin g from the Premier of Man itoba. It's un fortunate that those kinds of corn ments come from statesmen or people who are supposed to be states men because it does very li ttle, Mr. Speaker, to conti nue on with the spirit of living in North America in the friendly way in which we have li ved in the past. Mr.

Speaker, aga in, from the people of Arthur to the people who have built and supported the Peace Garden and as my own job as an ML A and a member of the Legislative Assembly, I too want to support this resolution and hope that all members of the Legisla­ tiv e Asse mbly see fit to support the resolution that is before the House congra tula ting the Peace Garden on their 50 years of success ful! operations. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Thompson. MR. STEVE ASHTON (Thompson): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I must say, on this particular occa­ sion, how glad I am to see the bipartisan support for this motion because I believe this is actually a first in this Session in which we have actually been able to agree on somethin g. I think it couldn' t be on a more appropriate subject here today because in looki ng, as we do, at the longest unde fended border in the world, I think we should realize how lucky we are, Mr.

Deputy Speake r, to have this peaceful relationsh ip with our neighb ours to the south because as we debate this motion here today, there are many other countries which wish they would have such a relati onship with their neigh bours. There are, in fact, I beli eve somethin g in the neigh­ bourhood of 80 or 90 nations around the world which have border disput es with each other. There are a nu mber of nations, of course, which are currently in conflict over those border dis putes and it is, I think, perhaps sign ificant if one looks at the situation we have with our American