VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, APRIL 11, 1978

· ~ .- Ta;e,_ s29 ~ April 11, 1978 PK - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER HOORES: Mr. Speaker, I just had a phone call about five to ten minutes ago from the receiver representing the British interest who advised us that because of the stand that was taken yesterday and other considerations that the British Government have turned down the Ultramar proposal. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER MOORES: I would also like to say, Sir, that it is their intention to carry on with any or all proposals that may come forward regarding the refinery, that we have offered our full co-operation and we expect to be meeting with them in the fairly immediate future. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, of course we are glad on this side of the House to hear this news, and we are extremely pleased and happy that we pressured the government into not accepting this proposal. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: But I would like to ask the han. the Premier a question, Sir.

In view of the fact that the Minister of Transportation and Communications, the former Minister of Finance, stated publicly in this Rouse that he was more or less in favour of the Ultramar proposal, and that he has put up such a savage battle for the Ultramar proposal against the Shaheen proposal. Would the Premier tell:. the Rouse now whether the minister is going to resign from the Cabinet or not over this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to clarify in no uncertain terms the Minister of Transportation and Communications, who has been responsible for the negotiations, has always done so with one purpose in mind, and that is not for or against any individual who had made a proposal but rather for the people of this Province.

April 11, 1978 Tape 829 PK - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, in last evening's Federal Budget Speech it was indicated in broad terms that the sales tax reduction in the various provinces was not applied to amusements, tobacco products and alcoholic beverages for home consumption. After consultation with federal officials it was agreed that in the Province of Newfoundland beer and tobacco products would not be excluded from the reduction. With this change all items sold by retailers in the Province can be included under one tax schedule.

In Newfoundland therefore the reduction from 11 per cent to 8 per cent will apply to all purchases except wines and spirits sold for home consumption. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: The new retail sales tax rates schedules are now available in the Department of Finance and will be mailed to all vendors today. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. It is not an earth-shaking point, and perhaps it can be covered as a point of information, I do not know.

Yesterday in speaking in the estimates on Manpower and Labour I was addressing myself to the economic situation in Bay d' Espoir, and subsequently in a radio report on Q ·Radio system it was reported that I referred to occupational health and safety as a motherhood issue. For the record,what I said, Mr. Speaker, was as follows, to quote from Hansard, "I was hoping that the minister in his opening statement would have addressed himself to a number of the big issues which are concerning us, and certainly occupational health is one of them." Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Do you want to rule on it? I want to make a ministerial statement.

-- April 11, 1978 Tape 829 PK - 3 ~lR . SPEAKER: No,actually there will be nothing for me co rule there. I think what would cover there •Mill be explained by May,Page 343 "In regard to the explanation of personal matters the House is usually indulgent and would permit a statement of that character to be made without: any question made befo re the House . " And that was of the nature of the hon. gentleman ' s question . I will recognize the hon. minister for a statement. ~lR. ~lA YNARD: Mr .

Speake r, as promi sed yesterday during the discussion on the estima tes I would bring the Rouse up to date on the current spruce budworm issue, and I would like to make a ministerial statement at this time.updating the plans that have been made fo r the suppression of the spruce budworm problem in 1978. As most hon. members are aware the current budworm outbreak began in 1971 and it still continues . In the Fall of 1976 the Canadian Forestry Service made a forecast that in 1977 budworm L I .t ~;

.\;o::il ll,l97J Tu.pe z·:c • ..:.i3J Gefoliatiot·i. woulci L.Jc :uoc.1crate to severe over 3-4 million acres and light over some 4.7-5.7 r.dllion acres of productive forest. The total area of infestation of 3.7 million acres represents about 90 per cent of the total productive forest area of the Pro>~nce. Ur .. fortunately, adverse ~-Jeather nega.ted t:1e 0~1portunity to conduct t:1e. re~ular aerial defoliation surve:;l lJ.st yt:.:~r. It ·,.J.;iS ciuring 1977.

DurinJ the ~g;;; wass survey, ~1.0'\.,,:ever, socc 900 locations ~;ere s~pled and records wade c[ stand defoli2ticn. \:cr~ wocl~rately to severely defollat:e:d c.nd light defoliatiol~ ~ .. as · . .-i: .. l so·.:~..z : ;i:or vari.::.tior:s. In 2.dd.ition, a dai.Ja.;e asse5sment 3urve.y '.Vas COild.uctt:d t~1rouc;h the joi:~.t co·-opcrs.tion of t:1e C.a.aadian Forestry Service, -;;;.y depart:nent aud the two pulp a."l.d paper compa."l.ies. This effort 1·/a3 <le=ed r.ecessary to evaluate and substantiate ';hether ir.osect dc.1 ..... q;e is iilG.ee..c.l a serious a cone era as ,_,;c~ be.lieve it to be.

Just to revie<l tne results of t;1e resalts of tile survey the following statistics are of significance:

(1) T:1ere are an estimated 2.1 :::ill ion cords of tir.,ber slreaC:.y ,:e&.d, ( ., ' -) Sci:l£ 3. 5 nil lion cords of tiwber are cl<J.ssed ~:oribu!!d or unlikely to survive.

(3) An additional 2 nillion acres of mature forestry have. "ueea 3~verely dam.a,;ed.

(4) About 1.7 million acres of softwood regeneration have been l1eavily damaged. ; . I (5) llortality of fir/spruce regeneration exists or is expected over some 50,000 acres.

.\pril 11,1~73 L1p2 :;o. JJ:J I -..n.s;-:~ to reiterate that til!'.ber in tc1e first two classes just cited represent sufficient volu~e to k~ep the Zowater and Price mills in operation for some seven to eight years. Coatinued losses will severely restrict the future perfornance of t11ese o.ills .1nd •• -auld elininate aJ.lj chance of their e;rpansion as •;ell a.o jeopardize any ;10pe of revitializing the Labrador Linerboarti o.ill. I will r.ot dwell oa ti,e aignificance or sensitivity of t.1is ,Jarticul.:lr issue at this tir.1e.

Loases to irw."'!".ati.lre tbber and regeneration will have far reaching conscque!lces iu future wood su;>plies and repreaents a very serious anc..l extremely costly mana;;eilient .?roblac:. It is highly unlikely that tl.e intensive :!lanageuent thrust, such as thinning, reforestration, fertilization, etc., for the next decade or ~ore will be ~irected to~ard~ - .\::1 HO~l. :J:ElffiER: Highly likely . It is hi~hly likely rather - c:1.e:,.· are directaL. tm.;ards rehabiliating t:1e d<lr.laged forest sites.

Should any areas of such endeavour becor.J.e infested, t;-:~e need for direct ;:>rotection is greatly enhanced. Although the egg mass survey conducted last Fall ir:1dicates so:c1e ar,;elioration of tile situation in 197 3, cntor:1olo:;is ts are unable to conclude an immin~nt collapse of the infestation. In fact, a favourable S=er for bud•~Yorm survival ~•auld likely result in a wuci1 increased forecast for 1979.

This of course led to tl1e decision reached last Fall to have the departaent plan and conduct an operational forest protection pro:;raw. using aerially appliec ch~~ical insecticides to limit anticipated dam~ge in 1978. l97C Plan: The plan that was originally approved -.• as for the trcatne:u.t of up to 2 nillio::1 acres at a total cost of $5 million And I would liKe to review the current status of that plan.

::o . .)3J :.r.--3 :iavi:ls, sicce :-..:1..: :~'"le oppc :-tc.:..i:j· ~o ~r~ cr!tic&!.ly evaluate initial plan s , cur~ eo t plans ~re ~ow cen tred ~rou~o a p~o~~ of L 2 ::~illi ou acres. That is a 40 ?er cent rtduction from the a crea ge that we hau or igiooally forecastec . lc addition another survey is in pro~ r ess to tet<! ::-=i::e ;me t :ler :core :=educ cior:s ca~ oe =de . Final results of t!lis surv ey wil: not be avai l ilble for <: t leas t chree wee:~s .

Unfor t u::..acely , :.o;:eve~, ? =cli=.i:Ulry ir:dicatio~s from .:.houc one c:urd of t~e r~ s,.l ts at c:1is til:e lcve: t::td t i t ~•:\)" ;,e necess::r1 to incl,.tie sone of t h.a areas t:~a:: have ::o far :,;:en eli::~i::u ::e d . I ;d.ll present a ::.orz ·!e:ailed ~.::;.>crt :.-:te:l the full an:;.lysis of cne survey is done . :re t:il l l!nceavour>

April 11, 19 78 Tape 831 11R. MAYNARD: however, to keep any upward revisions to a bare minimum so we are lDcely to end up with approximately 1.3 million acres in total. EC - 1 The operational aspects of the programme are as follo~ffi: Two main bases of operation ~re being developed, Stenl-le".ville airport and Gander airport. ':'!lese '.Vill service the large spray aircraft <:'lich '-Till rlo the T!l.ajority of the programme. ~roT!' Stephenville a total of Rbout 30~,~nn acres will be sprayed using large aircraft, and this represents 25 per cent of the total progral!lne.

There is one large block South of Stephenville and t~m East of Stephenville. There is also one small and one large block "orth of neer Lal:e, the largest blnd: being fil,OOO acres and the SlCl.allest 11,000 acres. from Gander, a total of acout q~0,000 acres will be sprayed using large aircraft, and that is 75 per cent of the programme. One large block of some 13R,000 acres is located on the Northern Peninsula. Another large block of 220,000 acres is South of Gander. The remaining blocks are scattered throughout the Province, ranging in size from 5,7~0 acres to P5,000 acres.

In addition to the above programrre, several smaller spray aircraft will be employed to spray a number of forest irnprove~ent areas and several seed production are~s. The actual areas that are being sprayed, :t-<r. Speaker, lvill ~e shown on maps at the regional offices. It is impossible to attach any kind of a detailed map to a statement of this kind. There are a number of existing and planned programmes of forest improvement that represent expenditures of millions of dollars which are threatened by the insect da'l'!age.

He regard such activities to be essential to 'good forest management' and therefore, v7e must insure that all reasonable efforts are made to protect these investments. Consequently, a total of about 35,nnn such acres are currently slated for treatment using the small spray aircraft, an~

April 11, l'l73 Tape 831 EC - 2 I give the ooerational acreage from each location, Stephenville, Springdale, Gander and Deer Lake. An integral part of our future forest rehabilitation programme centres around the planting of black spruce seedlings under the planned reforestation progra=e. A recent sutdy by the Canadian Forestry Service reveals that although black spruce trees do not suffer mortality from spruce ~ud~•orm damage, there is cause for alarm at the damage the budworm can cause to potential seed crops.

Consequently, plans are being formulated to intensively survey selected seed production areas to determine the necessity to protect them this summer. Areas ~~hich may require protection using the SI:lall aircraft total about 9,()')0 acres, the smallest area being ahout 200 acres and the largest about 5,000. These are all located in the central region. This year ~1e have adopted the following buffer zones. For the large spray planes, direct spraying will be kept two miles from communities of year-round habitation. A similar buffer ~.;rill be established around intake areas of knmm com!:'.unity water supplies.

A one l"lile buffer will be applied arounn day use areas of provincial parks. Because of the precision with ~-1hich the insecticide can be applied by smaller aircraft - and this is mainly because of low flying - a half mile buffer zone has been adopted in all cases ~·rhere the small aircraft is to be used. As mentioned, the main bases of operation will be the Stephenville and r.ander airports. Temporary plants will be set up at each location, and in Gander "e are using some of the airport facilities, and as well at ~tephenville. TI1e type of aircraft to be used. There will be a fleet of twelve aircraft.

These are three four-engine DC-6B's; two single-engine spray planes; four twin-engine supervisory aircraft: one single-engine supervisory aircraft: and two helicopters. •I

Anril ll, 1()7R '!:ane 831 EC - 3 I Hish to report that the tender for aircraft has been called and bids are currently heing evaluated to cetermine the successful operator. I have been informe d that t ~ e lar~e spr2.y airdraft <Jill carry J ,SO'l T!. S. gallons of fo=.ulation and treat 22,~ 0 1 a cres per load. T~ e sin gle-en gine spra y planes ~ .. Till carry 175 T. T. S. gallons and treat up to l ,120 acres ,er lo r!C.

April 11, 1:!7.:) '1ape oJ2 Dhi - HR. l'lAYNARD; Similiar to last year,the large aircraft will use the Litton Inertial Guidance System while the small planes will use aerial pnotographs for navigational purposes. In both cases, super­ visory aircraft will be employed to ensure first that conditions are conducive to good spraying and second to immediately call off tile spraying should un­ desired circumstances arise. The staff needed for the program will be 150. I have outlined the various jobs that a~e involved.

It is anticipated that the majorit)' of these people will be students a11d forest tecimicians employed only for the duration of the project. The only staff from outside the Province will be the aircrews of the aircraft and tile air­ craft mechanics. The insecticide to be used: For this year's prcgrar;-. it 1-ms decidec! to use the insecticide Aninocarb ~>"hicn is frequently referred to by its tradename, Matacil. The dosabe rate will be cwo applications of one ounce of active ingredient in t~enty a.~. ounces of oil based formulation per acre.

The first application will be applied at peak levels of the third stage of the larval development and the second will be applied at ti1e fourth stage. We consider that t1vo applications are neces­ sary to achieve the adequate control. Aminocarb was selected over Fenitro­ thion for the following reasons: (

a) Assessment of the 1977 eJ-.:perimental spray- ir:.~ pro;;ram shO\;ed that }.minocar!J gave muCl1 better control than Fenitrothion. (~) Jl.r.scd on tl,e er.vironmental assessn:.ent of last year's ;>rogram, Aniuocarb \oas less Jar-aging to the environ:nent, especially aquatic sustems. (

c) Amino­ carb is easier to formulate thau Fenitrothion and requires a simpler mixing procedure. (

d) A newly reco=ended and approved oil formulation for Feni tro­ thion includes a solvent material which significantly increases the cost of the formulatior . over that of !Iatacil. In fact, by using }:atacil only we will be able to reduce insecticide costs by almost $400,000. (

e) The reco=ended and approved Matacil formulation has been screened by federal health and >egul­ atory bodies a:1d contains no materials implicated with any human health hazard.

April 11, 1978 Tape 832 uw - 2 l1R. NAYtlARD: Although the intended spray regi~~ has oeen registered by appropriate federal health agencies, the detailed operational program has been submitted to the i·iewfoundland Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment for scrutiny by the Pesticides Review Board according to the "Pesticides Control Act, 1970". iiJ.lY modifications that t•1ey may determine are essential will be incorporated intc the plan. In the meantime, tenders lvere called for the supply of }lata~il and the contract subsequently been placed with Chemagro Limited Of ~lississuaga, Ontario.

Environuental Eonitoring: Although my department is ultimately responsible for the management and protection of the forest resource, we also place high value on the integrity of our Province's environment. \Je have therefore again reco=ended that a moni- taring program be conducted as an essential ingredient of the spray plan so that monitoring activities v:ill be undertaken to evaluate any impacts of spraying on the environment. This monitoring will again be conducted under the dirction of the environment branch of the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment.

It is expected that both the federal and provincial environ- ment agencies Nill be involved. I would assume that environment will oe making a furtner statement on tiis at some point in time in the near future. The timing of the spray program: the actual period of spray operations will1vary between locations but it is expected to begin about mid-June and terminate by mid-July.

Timing the spray is determined by taking various branch ·.samples in the field returning tl1em to tne labs where they are exaniined then the timing is set by the labora- tories for the most critical time in the production of the budworm larvae. Research and development: I wisn to disgress from the Newfoundland scene for a moment to mention two recent developments which have grown from the increasing awareness of the budworm problem in forest management. The fact that these two developments have taken place is positive proof of the magnitude of the problem.

First, the problem is inter-provincial and international in extent the insect obviously does not reco£Ili2:e any jurisdictional boundaries.

April 11, 1978 Tape 833 EC - l MR. MAYNARD: In 1977 the Eastern Spruce Budworm Council was formed. The council consists of senior personnel from Eastern provincial governments, the state of Maine and the federal governments of Canada and the United States. Essentially, these people represent the major user group of budworm/forest management information. The council will seek to constantly be informed of new information so that the most acceptable decisions can be made when choosing any kind of budworm/forest management strategy.

They also will identify specific areas in need of refinement or research and guide efforts to tackle the problems. My Deputy Minister, Sir,Herb Clarke, is currently president of this council • The second development which took place in May of 1977, an international agreement was signed by the Minister of the Canada Department of Fisheries and Environment and the Secretary of the United States Department of Agriculture.

This agreement which is referred to as CANUSA has the primary objective, quote: "To design and evaluate management strategies for control of the spruce budworm and/or management objectives in an economically and environmentally acceptable manner." Unquote. Essentially, a six year programme has been initiated to attain the objective. This will be a comprehensive programme which will review past research, refine current activities, and research and develop new methods.

Total expenditures under the aegis of this accord could approach $8 million annually, making it probably the biggest forestry research effort ever mounted. The cost of this year's programme: The cost estimate for the originally proposed two million acre programme was $5 million. A revised budget is currently being prepared for the present 1.2 million acre programme. Although this is not yet complete, it is expected that the total cost will be $3.5 million. Obviously, the cost per acre will be a bit higher than originally planned. The reason is, of course, that except for the insecticide quantities,

April 11, 1978 Tape 833 EC - 2 MR. }fAYNARD: essentially the same amount of overhead is necessary to conduct a smaller programme. As originally announced, a cost­ sharing formula for this year has been agreed upon by the two pulp and paper companies. The Crown will pay 50 per cent of the cost, the companies will pay the other 50 per cent, and they will divide it up among them based on the proportion of area sprayed on their individual limits.

Information: Publicity for the programme will be handled through the Public Relations Officer of my department with assistance from temporary information officers at each spray base. ~~ps showing the areas to be sprayed will be on display at all regional and forest management unit offices throughout the Province. In addition, two Zenith toll free long distance numbers will be publicized ~1ich the public ~y use to request information about the programme. Information will become available within the next month or as soon as any pending modifications are finalized.

Other aspects: While the primary purpose of this statement has been to outline the details of the 1978 protection programme, I would like to mention two other efforts of the department which are related to this problem, and these are salvage and forest management. These two activities have been suggested by some as alternate solutions to the current budworm problem, and this they are not. The primary objective of salvage is to minimize the economic effects of the damage v1hich has already been incurred.

The primary objective of forest management is long term and is to produce for the future a healthy and productive forest which is hopefully less susceptible to future attacks by the budworm and other insects. We have in this Province some 5.6 million cords of wood which are in the dead or dying category. However, there are physical limitations on the amount of this wood that can be salvaged. First, the damaged merchantable wood is mostly all fir.

April 11, 1978 Tape 833 EC - 3 XR. MAYNARD: The pulp and paper companies require approximately a 40 per cent spruce content . Secondly, the damaged wood does not occu.r in nice,isolated , homogenous stands. It is scatter ed among stands of healthy forest. Thus with the economics of today' s harvesting technology, even in a 'salvage' area, it is necessary to cut almost as many good trees as damaged ones. To salvage the 5.6 million cords could therefore involve the total harvest of up to 11 million cords. rnird, there is a timing and t.

April 11, 1978 Tape ~o. 834 mr - 1 MR. MAYNARD: quality limitation in both the harvesting and the milling operations. Fully damaged wood can be harvested for a period of two to three years and used in the pulp and paper process for a period of maybe two years after that. Taking into account the above factors, simple arithmetic will indicate that the estimate of fifty per cent salvage will be achieved only with maximum effort and co-operation among all concerned.

TI1is percentage can be increased only if additional utilization is identified, including the Stephenville mill, and of course we are working on this particular aspect. The two pulp and paper companies have co-operated and have obligated themselves to salvage as much wood as possible, taking ·into account their quality guidelines, their company harvesting plans are being modified accordingly. In the 1975-76 year government initiated a salvage access road programme with the construction ~f ten miles of road. Twenty miles were constructed in the following year and thirty-seven miles in the year just completed.

The programme for 1978-79 includes twenty-seven miles of salvage roads. Thus in the four years a tgtal of ninety-four miles of access roads to salvageable stand t~ill have been constructed at a total cost of approximately $2.4 million. Certain of these roads have been constructed on company limits and in return we have entered salvage agreements with the companies whereby they are required to harvest on their specific roads only a minimum of 263,000 cords of damaged wood annually for five years.

As well, we are currently pursuing additional initiatives which will make sawlog material from damaged stands available to local sawmills. In the area of forest management, over the past few years millions of dollars have been spent on forest improvements, tree nurseries at Wooddale and Mount Pearl, and in the area of increased utilization. These efforts are continuing and being expanded in 1978-79 and are expected to require continuing large expenditures in the coming decades.

April 11, 1978 Tape ~o. 834 ~!!! - 2 The Opposition To The Spraying Programme: I am aware that some people are attemping to form organizations opposing the spraying programme. My department will, in the future, as we have in the past, continue to give these organizations every courtesy and consideration. I am a bit shocked, however, at some of the irresponsible and misleading statements that have been made by sooe of the groups in printed material now being circulatec. As well, a number of simplistic solutions to this complex problem are being promoted.

Hy departmental policy will continue to be to make all the facts concerning the budworm problem available to the people of this Province. l{e will do this by using periodic new releases and by public statements by myself or any of my senior staff. We are available to answer any detailed questions that may be requested from us at any time. Thank you, !1r. Speaker. SOME HON. ~!EMBERS : Hear, hear! HR. W.N. ROWE: Obviously a very long and complex statement, Mr. Speaker, so we reserve the right to make a more detailed statement on it later.

One or two things that do arise from it that I would like to ask the minister now if he would consent to give us an answer. For example,the insecticide which he mentioned this Province is going to be using, this is not the insecticide ·they are using in the Province of ~<ew Brunswick at the present time, is that correct? MR.. }!ATil'ARD : Tr.at is correct. }JR. ~I.N.

ROWE: Now, Sir, the Province of Nova Scotia which has three~! believe, large mills dependent on its forestry, not to mention other mills, smaller mills, sawmill operations and so on, has taken a decision not to spray in the Province, a decision which has been greeted by a number of people in the Province as an enlightened decision and they are going to spend the money that they would have spent on a spray programme, which in this Province will amount to about $3.5 million when you include the paper mills' contributions,and they are

April 11, 1978 '!ap e )lo. 834 HR. FI.N. 'ROWE: going to use that l!X)ney to saJ.vage the dest ro yed ~ood, the ~ood destroyed by the spruce budwon1, and they ·are going to try to allo~ the infestation run its course and hope that the thing sort of implod .es the thing, sort of dies of its own course in months or yea rs to come.

Would the minister indicate to the House •.vhat are t he differences in his view, in his department 's view, in the i nfestation in this Province compared to ~o v3 Scotia ~h ie~ has made his government , the government he belong .s to, and t he Government of ;{ova Scot:ia, take two diametric all y opposed positions and decisions on what app ears to be essentially the same p roblem? 7ne quest:ion is asked, Sir, out of genuine curiosity, concern and

April 11, 1978 Tape 835 PK - l MR. W. ROWE: interest because obviously it is an important question. And I would like to know why two governments close to each other geographically with what appears to be essentially the same problem have taken diametrically opposed positions and decisions respecting this problem{ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Okay. Just briefly, Mr. Speaker, I am not sure there is a rationale behind the decision by Nova Scotia.

I can point out of course that Nova Scotia, except for Cape Breton Island,has so much different forest mix than- that is, a species mix- we do have in this Province. Our species mix is somewhat similar to New Brunswick and the Norther part of the State of Maine, which has conducted a spray programme for a number of years, even though Maine is phasing out by 1981. Nova Scotia is starting this year -I think they have done some in the past- they are starting this year to build salvage access roads to the regional forest management, and forest improvement.

We have studied the problem for some period of time, and our feeling is that at this particular point in time that we have to do both; we have to get into intensive forest management,which we started about three years ago in this Province; we also in the short-term have to protect the growing timber that is matured at t~is point in time, and especially some of the younger stuff, by an aerial application of insecticides. We have pointed out we are doing this only from year to year.

We feel that by doing both forest management and the application for short periods of time we are not locking ourselves into a long-term programme such as New Brunswick has done or such as Maine did some twenty years ago. And we also feel that with the amount of research that is presently being carried out by the federal and provincial governments, and the federal state governments in the United States,that another more permanent solution will come on stream within the next two or three years. But looking at it in the tota l perspective, and without commenting on the validity or otherwise of Nova Scotia

April 11, -1978 Tape g35 PK - 2 Mr. Maynard: decision, we felt that in the best interest of the Province we do not have any choice at this point in time but to go into a very temporary spraying programme which will be reviewed thoroughly year to year, and at the same time ensure that we are putting a lot of dollars, as many dollars as we can possibly find within the budgetary process,into forest management to overcome this problem in a longer time frame. I hope that answers some of his question. MR. W. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, with the indulgence of the House, a question of clarification only, nothing new substantively to be raised by myself; but in view of the fact that the minister said intensive studies have gone on and much research has gone on, did I hear him correctly, Mr. Speaker, when he said to the House that he has not as minister in fact consulted with the sister province, the Province of Nova Scotia,himself, with the minister, with the Premier of that Province in order to determine why they took the decision they did not to spray in the Province of Nova Scotia? MR. MAYNARD: No. MR. W.

ROWE: If I heard right, Sir, then that is an astounding confession for the Minister of Forestry of this Province to make. I hope I did not. I hope the minister can stand up and say he has, in fact, consulted personally with the Minister of Forestry in Nova Scotia, and with the Premier, and with other people there who made the policy decisions. I would like to hear the minister on that, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, I mentioned in my statement that the- as recently been formed in 1977, about January 1977 the Eastern Spruce Budworm Advisory Council which includes the Province of Nova Scotia - we have discussed the situation in Nova Scotia with the Nova Scotia people, both on a ministerial level and on the officials level. We have analyzed the problem that they have, and they have analyzed our problem. I said that I cannot really comment on the

April 11, 1978 Tape 835 PK - 3 Mr. Maynard: rationale for the decision that Nova Scotia tool:- and it was a Cabinet decision - I have no idea what the discussions were in Cabinet at that time. I do know what their situation is. I know that the research is going on at this present timf, they are a part of it through the Eastern Spruce Budworm Advisory Council. I know that there ' I \ ~ ·

t : -? . >;::ril 11,1978 :-:o. -336 .... • . . ._:_ b.~s not been :.luc:'l research :;or_c or .. i:1 the past unfortunately anc.l that is one of the reasons why ~_,e are into the situation that we are tod~y. But we keep in touch w~th !.:ova Scotia, !lew llruus-..;rick, :-:c.ine, Quebec,.ru.cl in some cases o.-.tario, becc:lusc ::as~-=rn Or.i. tar:..o ~aci or has a. slig:1t proble:u., not as :::~uci-.~. as ours,and ~ ;e :~ee.p LL toucl1 wit~ t~1e fetleral goverr~wents of bot~1 CO:..iiLCil ~cl ::1at w·ay ;;e arc fully aware at all ti.-:cs. Iluc I still cannot cOilllilent on .....-:1y the Cai.lir:.;:t 000 :IR.

PECl:J,'OR!l: :•lr. Speaker, a :linesterial Statenent. Do we have leave to revert to ~li::listerial Stat~e~ts? Agreed! The han. t!ii.nister of :ii.~.tcs and Lner2;y. :~r. Spe~ker, I would lik~ to :;:a~~e a st~t.i:er.:J.ei~t oefor~ the gover~ent presents to - the Gove~"ent of ~ ewfoundland through the Depart:.ent c.f .lines and Energy 1;ill be presenting a major position paper to the IPACE meeting that is being held in Quebec tomorrow. I s hould like to involve the Rouse in the decision c.nd policy Jirection of the govern::.leht '-'efo=e that stat:::ment ::.ecomes public.

The !PACE meeting in Quebec is the Inter - Provincial Advisory Council on Energy \t!lich is mc.Je up of people from all t he provinces of C.J.naJa on a ci.;puty :;:inister level as well as the Deputy :linister of Jo:uergy,~~ines an<l Resources. So, ~k. Speaker, I would like to introduce the House of Assembly here to a r~dical policy alternative I shall be pr;;.posing to the Fecieral Government as an alternative to achieving its objective of reducing Eastern Canada's depe~ci~ce on imported oil. ) 3 so

Lpril 11,1978 . c\li-2 :·lR. PECiJ'O:.W: The Federal Gove=ent is seeking to restrict imports of oil into Eastern Canada by encoura;,;ing the increased use of natural gas in Quebec, Nova Scotia and :<ew Brunst.;ick. This tvill be done by a variety of oil and gas price adjustwents designed to increase the relative competitiveness of gas compared witi1 oil. It will a:so encourage the extension of gas distribution in t:1e r.:::;;ion by suci1 projects as the Quebf c and :·lariti.me pipeline.

T!;e federal GovernLJent is r.:taking :. f:.irly substantial effort to pror.:tote ti:is ;?Olicy wi1ich will also se::ve to utilize ti1e .:;rowing natural c;as surplus in \>estern Canada.

Our Gover.Wlent however sees this as a massive intervention into the free market for gas and oil in Canada and as the basis for a substantial increase in bureaucratic control of tile vital ener;;y sector. l>e also see it as Joir-<; too little, too late to effect an early S•)lution to Canacia 1 s -.:i1ronic oil trade deficit, the ~:eakcnin& Car-,adian dollar and r~ounting une:nploy:r.ent. i·1e are suggesting therefore a reversal of t:1e Federal Gover=ent's brah.e on gas eAports to the U.S.A. and propose that a large volume of Canada's surplus natural gas should be allocated to exports to meet th.o urgent der•and ir. the Chicago/ uetroit area of the ~niteJ States. ~e propose that ~~s gas should be taxed fairly substantially and that the export tax gathered should be given to tl1e Eastern provinces on a basis proportionate to -:heir oil i~ports, for tlie purpose of financL>g energy self-reliance projects.

Thls would be tvorked out by the provinces tl1ewselves in co-op<.ration uith the Federal Govern:;ocnt. It is our opinion that ~!estern Canada could support an annual export of l trillio·r, cubic feet of gas for tne neJ.:t twenty years tvithout difficulty. i\s the U.S. carket could support an export tax of as much as 60 ceuts per :·Icf, this could 6enerate an extra $600 million revenue per year. On an oil import 1-

.'.p ril ll,l07J -- :o::-3 :.lillian. tu Quebec, $2CO T:lillio._~ to tile ~·l.:lritinas, .:1nd $6J T..:ill~on to :!e,;founclLmd ;;-ithout =Y cost to tZJ.e Canadian taxpayer. T:1e 3.dvanta;es for Ca.nada \.~aulc..l be substanti2.l: I~ woulU receive t~12 :"li3l~est valu.t:; for t:i.e surplus ~ ... ~ reserves

April 11, 1978 Tape No. 837 :·m - 1 HR. PECKFORD: - the dollar would be strengthened immediately; - the Eastern Provinces would receive substantial energy oriented project funds which would have great impact on their depressed economies and would go a long way towards solving their chronic unemployment ~roblems; - regional disparities would be considerably reduced; - increased state intervention in the oil and gas market would be avoided; - and oil imports into tae Eatern Provinces would be stabilized and reduced as the Province's energy self-reliance projects were completed.

The government does not see this proposal as necessarily inhibiting the introduction of natural gas into Eastern Canada. For example, Quebec could well devote its share of the export tax fund to developing a gas distribution system while the Maritimes and Newfoundland could use the funds to speed the transportation of LNG from the Arctic. Or in our case specifically it could be used to bring on additional hydro projects. I should point out that our figures as to volume of annual gas exports and the level of export tax to be imposed, are only illustrative although not unrealistic.

We believe that our proposal will go a long way to solving some of Canada's pressing economic problems in a relatively short time span. We believe that the scheme has solid advantages for all the provinces in Canada and we will be actively seeking their support in presenting it to the Federal Government this week. SOHE: HO~ ~!ENBERS : Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Eagle River. HR. STRACHAN: Hr. Speaker, I will attempt to respond in some sort of way to the statement made by the minister. What he is stating here,

,. April 11, 1 978 Tape No. 837 :;11 - 2 HR. STRACHAN: as I got it, what he is stating is that the surplus natural gas in Western Canada should be diverted to Central North America and that the government should be implementing an export tax,which sounds very good. We have been advocating that for some tice in a different form from export tax in this Province. And the funds from this will then be diverted to the East so we can therefore develop some energy sources in the East. I take it this is the gist of what I am getting from the minister.

There is only one point I would like to make on this,that the minister has stated that it is a radical approach and that he is prepared to present this to the federal government. I, in many ways in viewing this, say that we have been trying to tell this government for quite some time that what is needed is a radical approach and the treatment of energy sources within this Province, vis-a-vis Quebec, and if 1.;e cnnnot look after our own house it seems to me impossible for the administration to be telling Ottawa what to do with natural gas from Alberta and how we should go into Central North America.

And I think that what is required is that we should look at our own energy needs and see exactly how ,,.e are gain:; to handle that before ~1e start looking at the surplus natural gas from Alberta. !1R. F. ROWE: iiear, hear! A good statement. MR. SPE/~ER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Labour, the han. ~linister of Fisheries after. llR. ROUSSEAU: Hr. Speaker, I do not have any prepared statement but I would like to bring the House up to date on two labour disputes in the Province. This morning I ordered both sides back to the table in the Labrador City - Wabush dispute.

My conciliation officer will be in contact with both sides today and I am hoping that meetings will commence tomorrow. Further,I have asked both parties to remain at the bargaining table; neither party is to leave until and unless my conciliation officer deems it necessary or appropriate. I further asked that both sides

April 11, 1978 Tape No. 837 N!1 - 3 accede to my request that no public statements of any nature be made during the forthcoming discussions, which is to say that I am imposing a news blackout on all the talks and the only statements made during the talks •Hill be made by me. I have asked for their co-operation and 50od will for the concentrated joint effort to conclude an agreement between the Iron Ore Company of Canada and Locals 5795 and 6671 of the United Steelworkers of American. Also, ~~. Speaker, I was talking to a representative of Advocate Mines on a point raised by the hon. member yesterday.

I have been assured that it is not Advocate mines intention to resume operation with supervisory staff or with anybody else. I will be talking further with the representative tomorrow and again with Hr. Saunders, the President, '~hom I talked to today and conveyed this information to, and I will take it from there as to what further initiatives may be warranted in the situation at Advocate ~fines. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte - l.fuite Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, just a word or two on this ministerial statement.

We are obviously delighted that further moves have been made co get both sides together on the Labrador situation, and not being totally familiar with that that is all I will say. With regard to the situation in Baie Vert~, I am

April 11, 1978 Tape 838 EC - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: glad to hear that the minister has contacted the company and we can only take them at their word - a representative of the company; I do not know who it was, I may get that from the minister later - We can only take them at their word that they have no plans to start up production at their Baie Verte operation by using staff personnel. Mr. Speaker, I am going to go on record in this House now and publicly say that I hope that the company lives up to the word that they have given the minister.

Because company people - staff people, staff personnel-had told me personally over the weekend that those meetings were held last week and that the decision was taken to go ahead and start up production, no matter how small, - to start production this week. In fact, ladies employed by that company were taken out on training on eighty-five ton trucks Friday past. And, as a matter of fact, Hr. Speaker, I had word today that the mill was started up this morning. Now I do not know who is trying to hoodwink who and I hope the minister is right.

I do not want to see anything happen that is going to cause trouble, because it will obviously cause trouble, and that is why I brought it up in this House yesterday. I I hope it does not come to pass, but that is not exactly what is happening down there at the moment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, last year the government made known its intention to reactivate two chill holding and cold storage warehouses at the former U.S. naval base at Argentia. My colleague from Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) joins me today in expressing pleasure that we are able to announce the awarding of two contracts totalling close to ?. 500, 000 1 for the upgrading and renovation of these facilities. Holden Construction Limited of St. John's has been awarded a $350,800 contract to renovate both ~·rare houses. The company submitted the lowest of four bids received by the Department of Fisheries. The second contract valued at $147,200 went to Finn's Limited of Carbonear, who will carry out the necessary l. t .. f '·

April 11, 1978 Tape 838 EC - 2 MR. W. CARTER: electrical work on the facilities. Tenders are now being called for the installation of refrigeration equipment in the facilities and bids will close on April 20th. Mr. Speaker, these two buildings will have a combined cold storage capability of approximately eight million pounds of frozen product which will be used as a buffer cold storage facility for the fish processing industry.

Last year during the inshore fishing season the industry found itself in a very precarious situation because of a lack of cold storage capacity, and during the past number of months, feasibility studies have been carried out on these buildings in consultation with the industry and we have determined that the facilities are suitable and will provide additional cold storage capacity. MR. SPEAKER: Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: The hon. the member for Trinity - Mr.

Speaker, we ~;relcome any additional chill •'holding units in this Province and we would expect and hope that in the future we will hear more announcements for other parts of the coast of the Island of Newfoundland,and Labrador itself. As I understand it, Sir, there have been two contracts awarded to Holden Construction and Finn's totalling approximately - ~5UO, OUO with a capacity of approximately eight million pounds of fish, I understand, and with refrigeration units to follow.

Sir, the one thing that I ~iould like to ask the Minister of Fisheries is what exactly is the status of the lease situation between the Province and this particular property in question? Now I understand there are two warehouses which are going to be used to contain these facilities. To whom does this property belong? Does it still belong to the United States Government or has it been passed over to the federal government, and if so, has it been passed over from the federal government to the provincial government? What exactly is the status of the lease situation with respect to the

April 11, 1978 Tape 838 EC - 3 MR. F. ROWE: property in question which is going to be used for these chill holding units? AN HON. :HE~ffiER: It is on the North side. MR. F. ROWE: It is on the !~orth side, is it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Hinister of Fisheries. MR. lol. CARTER: This might more appropriately . I.

April 11,1978 Tape 839 PK - 1 Mr. W. Carter: be referred to the Minister of Justice, who, I think, is negotiating a part of the lease with the U.S. authorities. But I understand approval has been reached now in principle for the handing over of the facilites at Argentia with the Base Commander having been given the authority by his superiors to permit Newfoundland companies who want to move in there to obtain occupancy.

Certainly our Justice Department has satisfied itself that negotiations have progressed to the point, and are sufficiently well in hand,that we are able now to move in there and to undertake these renovations and approvals. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROWE: I would like with the indulgence of the House, The bon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Sir, I think the answer to that question is of upmost importance that, you know, the status of the property in question - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. F. ROWE: If the han.

Minister of Tourism will just worry about tourism and stop worrying about fisheries. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. F. ROWE: We already had the Minister of Tourism, Sir, when he was Minister of Transportation,announce a fish plant in Old Perlican which has yet to be risen. Now if the minister would just keep quiet and allow me to get on with the important business - MR. MORGAN: Ask your question, now. MR. F. ROWE: I know all about that fish plant, Sir, and the gentleman in question is not too pleased about the minister's announcement - premature announcement, I might add. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if I may be permitted to get back to the question. I wonder if the Minister of Justice would clear up the little bit of confusion on the exact status of land here. I mean,we could have a situation - do we have anything in writing which guarantees that we in fact will have that property passed over to the federal government and/or the Province? We do

··:.. .. April 11, 1978 Tape 839 PK - 2 Mr. F. Rowe: not want a situation where we have an expenditure of -?500,000, and then we are given twenty-four hours notice to get the heck out of it. So we are sitting on, to use an exaggeration, to try to prove a point, we do not want to find that we have a fish holding unit on top of an A bomb. And I think it is very important that the Minister of Justice bring the House up to date with respect to the negotiations.

Is there anything in writing with respect to the passing over of these_properti~s to the federal and/or the provincial government before this undertaking takes place? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: I am sure that we have violated every rule in the House in the last ten minutes, Mr. Speaker, - MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: when a question is now directed at another minister arising out of a ministerial statement not given by him.

But, again, with the indulgence of the House,the understanding, and I was more current on this when I was the minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, the negotiations between the Government of Canada - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. HICKMAN: And I was because in that capacity the Secretary of State for External Affairs has kept this Province,through the minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs,fully advised.

The position as it was then, and I suspect as it is now, was "that the agreement had been reached on all points of principle between the Government of the United States and the Government of Canada. ·~·· .. The actual agreement between the two nations, the two national governments, has not yet been signed because it is in the hands of the two Departments of Justice, the federal departments of justice. But it was agreed between them that whilst the formal signing has not taken place they can operate in effect as if it has been.

The intention then is that after the Government of Canada has ascertained what in the way of

April 11 , 1978 Tap e 83 9 PK- 3 Mr. Hiclanan: wharf facilities they will assume responsibility for,which is their jurisdictional responsibility, the remainder can go,will be sub-sublet to the Province,because there is not going to be a conveyance back to Canada of the Argentia property. It is a sublease. People should not confuse it with the way it was handled in Stephenville or Pepperrell. It will not be handed back by the U.S.

Government to th~ Canadian Government; r~ther, it will be sublet only to be recalled in the state of an emergency if it is necessary for military purposes. 1lell,if we get that kind of a war I guess very few of us will have much choice, you know, in stopping any government from taking what they so desire for defence purposes.

In the meantime,it was arranged between the Department of Industrial Development of this Province and the Secretary of State for External Affairs and the American authorities that when there was a building or an area of property that obviously would not be used by MOT, that the Commanding Officer of the Base could give the green light to go ahead with development of that property now, and that is~ as I understand it, was what was done with this one now, and that the rights of the Province are fully, fully, fully protected. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. P.

CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition from some fifty-one voters of the settlement of Brookside in the district of Burin-Placentia West. AN RON. MEMBER: Placentia West? MR. CANNING: Burin-Placentia West.

_\..l~-1 tililt t:le pet:..ticners wisn. to b~ir-.u to th~ at:c~~tior .. of the ~~Cuse and pray that the government will 6ive attention to a road leading into the community, to be upgraded and paved. And they :;o on to say that we tnink t!.;.s is iraperative due to the alt:;Jst ~passable condition of the roads used by the children in transit to school. ~ !r. Speaker • I fully SUi??Ort th~ pr.2ycr of t~e petition.

TI1is is aaot~H~r case of a roaci that has Or.:il16 ~aved l·:it:lout even heinz upgraded and brouf;~l~ to a s~andurd \v"iiere. it s~1ou:ci b~ f>aved in t:1a y..:.ar of 197.!;-1~75~ a~d when t;1e elections -:;11ere over of course there was notiling else done. ~lr. Speal~er, as five kilonetersJ t:1.:J.t is t~1e bit t;1at is left, and t~1is is repeated in at least four or five other settleuents in my district where in an election year they started paving roads and then dro!Jpecl it. Very little i1as been clo,le there siuce~ t~.ey ;lave not even ::,een t::ai;:,tair..ed or l~ept up to a decent sta;;"~dard.

A:Jons t:1e peo;;le they say, Well 1ve are being discrir.J.iuated 2-gaiw.st for the fact t!-.a.t ·.;e put out a Tory and voted in a Liberal. ::.y t!1e 11ay, llr. Speaker, when the Liberal they voted in was out for a little while on a boliday,before he was leaving he could boast to tne fact that 1vithin tl1e time that he had represented his native district ;1e i1::.d succzeded in relievin:; isolation of ;1is p<:ople to a point where a car or a truck or a bus could drive to every single door in this district with the exception of three isolated areas where there is not auy road connection as yet.

So for five years t:•ey have watclied t\1is little bit of road deteriorate, t:12 !Jit they i1a<l left that they <lid not pave and they feel they are being discriL"linated against. And yet I do not say that t;1ey 'tre because I cannoc im.J.gine. a government made up of Newfoundlanders discr~inating against the sc~1ool children of the little settlement of Brookside, Hr. Speaker, it is wholly and totally and solely neglected. I do not know if even the supervisor of the roads in that area ever has been in this settlement yet. I do not know if he is a<rare of t;1e fact that it is now dangerous for the

Tcpe ~:o . S!.O .W-1 :a. c;.miDiG : school children tr.:lvellh~ over it in buses. ~~ . Speaker , I would beg t he ;over~t to L~e up and look after th~ people for t he next yea r or so or now ever long they have here , because I guarantee tilem ii this mezlber goes i>ac~ :o that dis::rict aft.ar we have changed governments t hose little bits of road will :.,e done .'lila ti1ere ;;-'...l.J. be no cii.sc r i.l:li."lat io<l , :!r . Spea~er . I fully suppo r t che petition, Hr. S-peaker, and ask that this be laid otl thP - ~IR . HORGAH: They • ill not get uone that way. :~;;.. FLIC1:1: l!r.

S;>eaker, I ask that it bel laia o~ - <.~lum ! W..l!l so ab rupt:ly ir.terruptCld by son:ebody 11ho is :10 t :. ger.tle3an on t~ other side , I mecnt to a:;k that this ?etit ion be tabled anci refcrreri to the depa=t=lent to which it r elat!!S . . ., . ..._ ... . .... ··-... SPZA.'<I:R: :~w.Y : West r:.e hoo . I:ClCber for Lcl'oile . · :r . 5;tal"~ r, I ·..-:loleheartec!ly support c::e ;>rese:1tini; the petition .:lrui pointing out to the iiouse ·~ t

April 11, 19 78 Tape 841 NR. NEARY$ that this is just one in a series of oromi~~a that were made prior to the 1975 provincial general election that was broke~. There are examples, Sir, all over the Province.I have one in my own district, a road leading from the Trans-Canada Highway down to Grand Bay l.Jes~ a three mile stretch of road.t:very other road in the area was paved prior to the 1975 election. The people in Grand Bay West t;ere told that their road ·~as going to be paved. ~ow I urove over it last ~~ek, Sir, and it is a d~sgrace.

As a watter of fact ,they are thinking, Sir, about taking tit~ sci1ool buses off they cannot drive over the road it is after d"-teriorating so much. And tne same way with this particular stretch of road that leads to brook- side.

Hy hon. friend indicated tl.at the parents are very concerned about the safety of their children and rigittly so, Sir, And I congratulate the member who is the senior man in this douse for making such an excellent case to :tave this road upgraded and paved in this fiscal year, I do believe, Sir, that the government,the administration,should give top priority to upgrading and paving all roads where promises were made prior to the 1975 general election.They should receive top priority over any new projects.

In other words, Sir, the government should go back over its promises that were made prior to the 1975 election and upgrade &~d pave all the roads that they promised they were going to pave and upgrade prior to that election, and let the new road paving and projects hold over for the next fiscal year. r1R. SPEAKER: The han. member for Bellevue. HR. CALLAN: }lr. Speaker, I once again cannot help but rise and support any petition that has to do with road improvements whether it be reconstruction or paving.

I fully understand the plight of tile >Jeople, the residents who live in Brookside in the hotl. ~;entleman 's district. ~hey share the same concern,I believe,that an awful lot of residents in this Province share .They are eating dust in the summertime and, of course, '/ as the member in presenting the petition pointed out, they are doubly disappointed and disgusted because of promises that were made to have the roads improved two, three,four or five years ago. Hr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition. The Y~ister of Transportation and Comffiunications is not in his seat right now.

I saw him tnere looking over some envelopes that he had there. perhaps he is trying to figure out ••hether or aot this road has been included

April 11, 1\173 Tape 841 lJII - 2 HR. CALLAN: in the program for this year •• 4s has been mentionad in this House on previous occasions, there are an awful lot of roads in this Province that need to be upgraded and paved. $100 million wot:th of re.quests, and in the poor budget that 1.ras brought down a month or so ago of course only $40 million to fulfill the requests for a lJO million. So obviously there 1.rill be a lot of roads that 1dll not be reconstructed and paved.

I hope that ti1e minister,'nho I suppose has made his decisions by now,I understand that the minister has indicated that since his estimates have gone through the House-they went through last week-since the estimates for the Department of Transportation and Communi­ cations have gone through that the minister would be in a position sometime thi.o week to announce publicly what roads will and will not ;,e done this year. ~!c ...

I believe the minister, the new ~:inister of Transportation and Gollllllunications,is an hon. man.I de not think he will keep the people guessing and wondering half the Summer and half the iall ,but they will be informed whether or not their roads will be improved sometime this week,I understand.3o I hope that if the minister is in the House and stands or rises in connection with this petition that perhaps he can indicate to the hon. member whether indeed this road has been included in this summer's program.

As of course I also hope that the minister has included many of the roads that are in the district of Bellevue in the program for tnis Summer as well. Mr. Speaker, I whole-heartedly support the pr~yer of the petition. HR. SPEAuR: NR. J. vJUSOR: The hon. member for Fortun~- - Heruita;;e. Hr. Speaker, I also would like to support the petition so ably presented by my hon. friend for Ilurin - Placentia i·lest. I am quite sure tnat the priorities that were orignally

April 11, 1978 Tape No. 842 ~m - 1 MR. J. IITNSOR: established have not been adhered to, and I do know that the minister is standing in the corridor with his deputy minister at the moment and I hope when he responds to it that he will, as the hen. member for Belleve (Mr. Callan) said, give us some statement on whether there are going to be any priorities for the local roads. There is not a person in this House who is not fully aware of the fact that the social and economic picture is being seriously held back by th~ deplorable condition of the side roads, access roads to the different communities.

I am a bit of an expert on them myself, I drive over them very frequently, and only yesterday passed over the Harbour Breton Highroad, which had one lane traffic through snow about ten feet deep on each side. And there were three ploughs broken down on that road, and this is the story. Now in supporting my hen. friend's petition I think these things should be looked at in a different light. There should be priorities set on the roads, tell the people when they are going to be done and stick to it, not ramble all over God's garden for political reasons. Thank you. The hen. member for Fogo. CAPTAUI E.

IVINSOR: I rise to support the petition presented by my seat mate, and my colleague, and Sir, in supporting this petition I feel if there is any district - no 1I will not put it that way, I feel that if there is a district that is deserving of pavement, upgrading of roads and every road in that member's district be paved, it is the district which the ~on. member represents. MR. J. WINSOR : That is right. CAPTAIN E. !JINSOR: Mr. Speal;.er, this gentlerJan has sat in this House for twenty-five years. !1R. J. WINSOR: That is true. .I CAPTAIN E. WINSOR: Imagine that!

And after twenty-five years is forced now to come into this House to present a petition to have certain roads upgraded

April 11, 1978 Tape No. 842 ~le! - 2 C.APTAL."q E. WINSOR: and paved. MR. J. WINSOR: That is right. CAPTAIN E. WINSOR: Out of tribute to this hon. gentleman, a member for twenty-five years, out of tribute to this hon. gentleman, Sir, I say shame on the government that they have not paved every mile of road in this hon. gentleman's district. So, Mr. Speaker, I plead and urge the government not to embarrass this gentleman any longer, this hon. member. AJ.'q HON. }!EMBER: (Inaudible). MR. J. WINSOR: Now. Now. C .APTAIN E.

WINSOR: Following behind this hon. member,I myself have a few roads which need paving, and perhaps out of tribute to the both of us, before the next election rolls around, that all roads in Placentia 'tlest, and all roads in Fogo district, will be paved. SOME HON. ME!1BERS : Hear, hear! PRESE..'{TING REPORTS BY STA.J.'{DING AND SPECIAL COHMITTEES: }!R. SPEAKER: The·hon. Minister of Justice. MR.. HICKMA.~ : Mr. Speaker, I table the Report of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities to the Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment, pursuant to

section 531 of the Automobile Insurance Act, as amended June 17th., 1977. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Tourism. ~JR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the regulations as they pertain to tourist establishments in the Province. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. - - ---- HR. HICKXAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the member for - he disappeared on us - the member for Placentia _(Hr. H. Patterson) , and the hon. the member for Carbonear (Mr.

R. l1oores), have asked that they be relieved of their responsibilities as members of the Public Accounts Committee, for a very good reason and other commitments, and have therefore resigned. Consequently I move, seconded by the hon.-member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Si=ons), that pursuant to Standing Order 87,

April 11, 1978 Tape ~o . 842 :-':! - 3 tha t the hon . the member for ferryland {Hr. C. Power), and the hon. the member for oa.ie Verte- 1-.'hite .Bay {Mr. Rideout), be subs t ituted fo r the bon. the member for Carbonear, and the hon . t he member for Pla centia on the Public ACCOUntS Committee , ~!R . SPEAKER: The bon. member for Burgeo- Bay d'~spc±r . t·!R. Sllll-'.O~S : -tr , Speaker, in secondin:1; the mot i on moved by t he hen. the Go•1emment i:iouse Leacier , I I: I. ,, ,. i: j; jr t t. I . I. .,,

!C "· April 11, 1978 Tape 843 EC - 1 MR. SUIMONS : I just want to take a moment of the House's time to say a word of tribute to the two retiring members of the Public Accounts Committee, of which I have the honour to be Chairman, the member for Placentia Oir. Patterson) and the member for Carboo.ear (Hr. R. Uoores). As the hon. the Government House Leader has indicated, both gentlemen are leaving the Committee because of other commitments and at their own stated request, and I, for one, am sorry to see them go. They have been with the Committee during the formative years of the Committee.

The last two years or so the Committee has come through a very formative period, and the two members now retiring from the Committee have played a very important role, Hr. Speaker, in making the Committee function as well as it has. Also, Hr. Speaker, I would like to take a moment to welcome the two new member s of the Committee, the member for Ferryland (}!r . Power) and my colleague, the member for Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr.

Rideout), and I certainly look forward, as I am sure all members of the Committee do, to working with the two new members as we pursue our mandate to monitor the Public Accounts and to scrutinize government spending. Of course, Mr. Speaker, it goes without saying that the member for Mount Pearl (Mr. N. Windsor), the member for Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn), the member for Mount Scio (Dr. R. Winsor), who is also the Vice-Chairman of the Committee, and I will be continuing as members of the Committee, together with the two new members and, as well, the member for Lewisporte (Mr. F. White),my colleague to my right.

It is an important time to be coming on the Committee as we are going to be continuing to break some new ground, as this year it is our intention as part of our respoD$ibility in monitoring the Public Accounts to specifically get into the area of examining the accounts of certain of the Crown agencies and Crown corporations. Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

··:: April 11, 1978 Tape 843 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: With the concurrence of the House I would now put the motion. Do I have the concurrence of the House? It has been moved that the han. member for Ferryland (Mr. Power) and the han. member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Nr. Rideout) be elected to the Public Accounts Co=ittee. Is the House ready for the question? Those in favour 'aye', contrary 'nay'. I declare the motion carried. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. }!R. W. N. ROWE: These takeover bids are getting harder and harder to handle, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Terrible, is it not?

Have you your paranoid pills with you? HR. W. N. ROWE: No, the paranoia pills went with the furniture. Mr. Speaker, a question to the han. the Minister of Justice. It must be a year or so now, Sir, since the police commenced an investigation into the goings on and alleged shenanigans in the Department of Public Works. N.:; HON. }!EJ-ffiER: n.at is right. MR. W. N. ROWE: Has the minister received the report from the RCMP? -it was the RCMl', I believe A..'l HON. MEMBER: Yes, that is right . MR. W. N. ROWE: Has he received the report, and if not ,. Sir, can he inform the House as to the status of the report?

Is it being sat on? Is it being proceeded with? Is the minister, himself, pushing for a conclusion to that particular investigation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the only reason why I could comment on this at all is that it was public knowledge that an investigation was instituted and requested of the RCMP into an alleged activity into the Department of Public Works and Services by the )JiO •-.re : . - " I ' ..

· ~· · .. April 1:, 1978 Tape 843 EC - 3 HR. HICKMAN : Auditor General. That request to the Director of Public Prosecutions by the Auditor General was immediately acted on and the appropriate polic e force, which I thin k is totally the RCMP, but I will not swear to that because there may have been investigations within the city limi ts as well, have been investigating the matter.

I most cert.ainly cannot indicate the status of the investigation - that is a matter between the Director of Publi c Prosecutions and the poli ce - other than to assure this House that that investigation is proceeding with the utmost cispatcb and is in the hands of the Director of Public Prosecutions. And it would be quite improper for me to go further than that. IIR. SPEAKER: The bon . the Leader of the Opposition. ~!R. W. N. ROWE : A very interes ting lesson on jurisdiction and so on, !!r. Speaker .

The ques tion I asked was, iias the minister or anyone in his department received a rep ort from t he R~W into the investigation into alleged wrongdoing in the Deparcaent of Public Works?

April 11, 1978 Tape 844 PK- 1 Mr. Neary: He has received it. MR. W. ROWE: Ch,he has received it. Mr. Speaker, I do not know what is wrong with the minister speaking from his seated position over there. MR. HICKMAN: Do you want me to rise again and repeat what I said when I was on my feet? MR. W. ROWE: Yes, Sir, if he would. MR. HICKMAN: I understand that the report from the RCMP has been delivered to the Director of Public Prosecution. MR. W. ROWE: When? MR. HICKMAN: I do not know the date, but not too long ago. MR. NEARY: The minister does know the date. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

HICKMAA: I do not know the date. MR. NEARY: Do not try and pull the wool over our eyes. MR. HICKMAN: I do not know the date, Mr. Speaker. I make it a very good policy to follow, the policy with anyone who knows the responsibilities of the Attorney General will follow, that reports from the RCMP go into the Director of Public Prosecutions or the police, any investigating authorities. The Director of Public Prosecutions or a prosecution assigned by him reviews the results of the investigation to see whether or not there is sufficient evidence to warrant the laying of a charge.

If they come to the conclusion that there is sufficient evidence,charges are laid forthwith. If they come to the conclusion that additional evidence is required they will go back and ask the investigating police authorities to obtain that information and to conclude the investigation. These decisions very properly are left to the Crown's law officers, and they conduct it with the upmost dispatch, the utmost equity and fairness. And I simply repeat that I do know that the report has been received by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I was not aware of it until very, very recently. MR. W. ROWE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary. I I~ .,I !

April 11, 1978 Tape 844 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: May I ask the minister how long he will permit - this is no criticism now of his staff, the admirable staff that he has down there, members of the same learned profession, Sir, as myself; therefore they must be excellent ladies and gentlemen. MR. NEARY: Now do not walk on my toes. MR. W. ROWE: And my han. colleague, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary),agrees with me whole-heartedly, for the record. That is the first time that was ever entered into Hansard, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. W.

ROWE: Let me ask how long will the Minister of Justice allow the report to be perased to be looked at, studied, sat on, argued back and forth, before he himself as the Chief Law Officer of the Crown in this Province decides on taking action one way or the other. It is very interesting, Sir, to hear him slough off his responsibilities. MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. W. ROWE: But he is responsible to the Lieutenant-Governor representing the Queen, and to this House, Sir, MR. NEARY: MR. W. ROWE: MR. NEARY:­ MR. W. ROWE: That is right. - as the Chief Law Officer of the Crown. Hear, hear!

And one day he must decide whether he is going to allow an investigation which has been going on for a number of months concerning which there has been a report received by his staff in the department, whether or not any action is going to be taking on it. Now how long does the minister propose to allow this report to be sat on before some action is taken? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, first,commenting on the comments that were not too relevant to the question made by the han. the Leader of the Opposition, I would commend to him the recent decision of the Supreme Court of Alberta sitting forth the duties and the

April 11, 1978 Tape 844 PK - 3 Mr. Hickman: responsibilities of Attorneys-General, one of which is not that just enunicated by the Leader of the Opposition. The nosition is, Mr. ~neaker, I reneat t~at I knm~ that that report has been received by the Director of Public Prosecutions. The length of time that is taking in perusing that report depends on the thickness of the report. You know, some reports,if it is a report on an impair driving case, I would think that a Director of Public Prosecutions or any prosecutor could take about two minutes, or certainly five minutes to decide whether or not to lay a charge.

If it is a report involving heavy accounting investigation, it will take considerable time. Also,may I once again remind the House, that seldom, if ever, on a case that is of any magnitude does the first report when it comes in suffice or meet the requirements of any responsible Crown prosecutor. I want to repeat, and the han. Leader of the Opposition knows this, that it is very, very wrong for an Attorney-General to comment in the slightest detail on an investigation that is going on out of which charges may be laid SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

I because that does nothing but prejudice the right of an accused person. ., MR. HICKMAN: Well, let me assure this House that that case 1as with any others 1will be dealt with and is being dealt with with the upmost dispatch. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. gentleman for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir,followed by a supplementary by the bon. member for LaPoile, and then I will recognize on a new line of questioning the hon. member for Eagle River. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary for the same minister, the Minister of Justice.

Has the minister been made aware of the contents of the report? Has he seen the report at all or is he aware of what the report contains?

April 11, 1978 Tape No. 845 :·m - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have not seen it and I am not aware of what it contains. HR. SD1NONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPE.A..'<ER: I have already indicated I would allow both hon. gentlemen one supplementary, and then the hon. member for Eagle River. HR. NEARY: If my han. friend wants to ask a supplementary, Sir, I ~~ill wait and ask mine after 1 Your Honour. if that is all right with }ffi.

SPEAKER: Order, please: !-lith respect to supplementaries, as han. members know, the Standing Orders point out that a supplementary question is at the discretion of the Speaker. Frequently it is very difficult to know how to exercise that discretion and I can only judge by the number of members who rise on non-supplementaries, and I have to bear in mind that if they rise then they are indicating they wish to ask a question. If they do not rise supplementaries could go on for the whole thirty minutes. But when they rise then obviously I have to infer that they wish to ask questions on other subjects.

Now it does not preclude an~ hon. member from getting back to a subject after. But I think having indicated, having already heard the original question and three supplementaries from the hon. Leader of the Opposition, I then indicated I would hear one from each of the tim other han. gentlemen lvho wish to ask supplementaries and then the han. member for Eagle River (Hr. Strachan). I think that I would have to stick to that. It does not preclude anybody from coming back to the subject later. But in a sense it is a kind of collective decision.

To a certain extent the Chair is in the hands of the han. gentlemen asking questions, not to what is in order and what is not in order, but to a certain extent in the area of supplementaries the Chair is in the hands of han. gentlemen asking questions. So I can only judge when people stand then they wish to ask questions. The han. member for LaPoile.

April 11, 1978 Tape No. 845 W.[ - 2 ~fR. NEARY: ~~. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Justice a supplementary in relation to a question I was asked by my hon. colleague, the Leader of the Opposition. Sir, I would like to ask the minister if any action has ever been initiated as a result of the Scrivener affair that was raised in this Rouse a year ago, and if any action was taken would the minister indicate to the House what kind of action was taken, and if there is an investigation ongoing into this Scrivener affair? NR. SPEAKEr.: The hon. Minister of Justice. ~. HICKMAN: ------ Mr.

Speaker, obviously any action that is taken arising out of any investigation that is within the confines of the Department • of Justice only, and properly so, should become public knowledge if charges are laid. .Out I am not in a position to comment on investigations that are going on by the police under the auspicies and guidance of the Department of Justice.

The only reason why I have been in the position to respond to the questions from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is that this ~•as a matter that arose last year and became public knowledge as a result of a request of the Auditor General 1 which was responded to,and it was made public knowledge that an investigation ~;as ongoing.

But if we ever reach the stage in this Province, or anywhere in Canada, where investigations when they are ongoing become the subject matter of public knowledge, then no one will feel free again, ever, that all anyone has to do is to make an accusation and then there is an investigation and then people say, " All , there must be something to it because there is an investi gation." That would be a most unteoable situation for 'lnyone who operates under the British system of justice to live. &•d I most definitely will not answer that kind of question, nor should I. }!R. tU:ARY: A supplementary question, Hr.

Speaker. ~. SPEAKER: I had indicated that after one supplementary I would recognize the han. member for Eagle River (Ur. Strachan). It will not preclude the han. gentleman from coming back. But as I explained , to a large extent the Chair :!.s in the hands of han. members and Hhen

Ta pe .lo. 84·5 .!!>! - 3 HR. SPEAKER: the)' continue to rise on other sllbjects, then after a certain number of supplementaries I have to use what I consider to be principles of equity and I do not think it would be proper for me not to recognize the han. member for Eagle River. If he yields,or does not,that is obviously his own prerogative. NR. STRACHAN: I have been trying for two days, Mr. Spea~er, to get this question in, and unfortunately in the time when I have llla.Ilaged to get it in the minister responsible is absent from his seat.

He happens to be the l-liuis ter of Rural Development, who is also the 1<1inister of Mines and Energy. Although how he can be minister of both departments I do not know. But maybe I can redirect the question in that case to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affair since it concerns the relationship bet;geen the Province and the federal government. Could the minister indicate to us th.e rationale behind, and the policy hopefully behind the designation of cOIIIII!Imities in Labrador as certain designated communities, since there is a considerable anxiety in same collllllUnities wh.ich are split down the middle.

Some

.April 11,1973 T<!pe No. 846 ~~r-1 :talf of tlle cotll'ilunit-; is not desi:;nated,;Jlus the fact that it is discriminately practiced and that some families are called native people and are available for 6rants and also for certain benefits ~r.cler tllis P::=ovince' s progra=~and w<=U~bers of tl1e same fumly or close far.1ily, the same backgrounci, do not :-~ve the so.! rit;:l~s. And this is in ;:;1e ca3e of al::1ost five i1unuraJ peo;:>le >rho :io 110 t i1ave r.ii,:lt3 w·:1ile other peo~·l~ \·~(lo are related to t:1em c!o :1ave rif;hts. I wonder •.;oulcl ti1e mi11.ister ansl<er the question? cill..DOODY: }lr.

Speaker, I 11ould very ::lUcn lil-e to be in a position to answer the question bec<.use it llss been one of the J;Jajor mysteries that has been confronting i!le and,I = sure, ot;ler people in this ilouse since the policy was instituted.

I nave .:J.bsolutely no idea l1o\·J t~1e criteria is arrive~ at; ic i:as Leen a ::tatter of discussion with c:1e i)eople i.l Ottawa r.:sponsible for soml! ciw.e. t!e ~lave ever:. go:1e so far as to f.s:cetiously suggest tnat blood tests perha~s should ~e given to ~arious j;Jembers of the people in the Province to determine what, where and when and wi1at percentage should be distributed. There are ninety-ten agreer.1ents, there are sixty-six-and-one-third agreements and there are sorue agre=ents which do not seem to cover anything or anybody.

It seems to be to be exactly as the han. gentle~an has suggested, to be J.iscri.ninatory, unfair and unreasonable. l-le shall continue to try and get it changed and try to get it to cover as many people as ••e can iu terms of equity. I cannot in all fairness answer the questioii directly because to the best of r:.y kr:owl<!dge there is no ammer to it, it is an arbitrary thing that is beyond reason. :m.. STRAClWl: I·!J:c. SPEAKER: HR. STRACHA,'l: A supple~ent~ry. A supplenentary by the origiual questioner.

The minister has mentioned the fact of blood tests and it leads it up to my question because I am very deeply concerned of what is going to occur in Labrador in the t

April 11,1978 Tape ;;o. 846 :IR. STMCILA.i:~: as has been stated i:u. mar,y cases, not blooJ tests as such but it is registration of native peoples in which one has to be ape blooded in order to be able to qualify uuder the: program which is a policy adopted by tile Federal Government in the :'ort:n.1est Territories. Applied to Labrador what it will mean is ti.at coi!ll:luuities •.rill be split down t:1e n:iddle. Our co;.lLluaities will i1ave people disqualified t,rho i<ave been <J.Uali£ied over the years and it can be soille t:rrible ::~ess.

I wonder if the minister caul~ indicate vr:1ether tilis province has made overtures to the Federal Governrnent throuc;h the Feaeral-Provincial cowmittee tu try to come to a more rational, more sane, more balanced position and vie•~oint rather than to allow this kir .. d of registratior ... under the rules -:;:lJ.ich can do v.otili!lg i11 Labr~dor but coutinu~ to create racial discriwination, disturbance ;;n<.l .J.lao I t:li~;.k possibly a ;;reat deal of confusion and possibly conflict within communities in Labrador. ~!R.. SPE.AKER; Th!.! han. winister. ~IR. DOODY: ~r.

Speaker, I trust that the hon. member noted I prefaced t:1e comment on blood tests with the word 'facetious) because it is indeed an absurd situation and one which scwulcl not oe continued and one which should never l1ave beeu allowed. I think it is,as I S<iid I earlier,unfair and discriminatory and one which we have objected to ~~ cuuci:J.u.:i.lly from the beginni11g. The or.ly saving £race t:llit t~1ere is anci ti1at is if there is ar.y is the fact that it allows c<?.rtain areas vf t:1e coast t:o obtaiu. a lar[!e.r fu.::::.G.int; ti1an others.

T:tat certainly is not a rationale anu certai..."l.ly not an excuse. '·le h.:J.ve had rep..i.:-=scntation to t~le Governuent of Canada arid ~ve ·.;ill co~tinue to .::.o so. I •<auld :1ope to l.ave a r:.ore sensible ana rational a;:-rroacb to t''" fundiq; of c.;,esE progr=1e:;. Ceortainl;; the basis on which ti1ey are acL11inister-2d and su~gested anci organized r,ow can do not:ring but cause a sort of situation that tile han. Llember l1as describe!!. It is certainly not in the interest of t,;e unity of t~1e provir.ce or

· ~ ... :-... DOODY : J:: - 3 that: t ile :1on, c;emLer "'iJ.l s:..pporc :ne ar.d help a= in any way t:ilat he car. . A fina l suppl,~eJ·.tary . :!R. STR'\C'.iAil : ?Cy':\lent :;n«reas tnair sist .ars :md Ut'vtnerS iJ:. the Su::le fa.U.lj' il.re ~o t given t~ese rights because ::hey are ~ot ~tive . And apparently it seet:IS t:.:ar you csn be tW.tive if ;;ou are livir ::; at ~resent in :!akko•rik o:r Nain you a:re native a.nci if you are living in i-.appy V::lley y-ou are not native.

A.cC 1 -..;onCer if the o iniscet can 3:!J :·.:hc:t:.a-.:..r c~ey are p:r::cci .;<!s of discrbination for people lii~ this ;..•i:o oc.e clay but 'if you ;:;ove co iiopecinle you "lolill be come r.ative ~ I thin!: it lies o;:it hin tl1is prov·ince co ba able to wipe .:>ut t~:is tor.allr altogether and come dotm to some rar:ional sense and I think che Fed<!ral · Proviucial Co=itee is il vehicle by -whicn this can be C:ot1e ::nd I think it is up to r.i:is .:;dml;tistratiOI\ to do it.

-. April 11, 1S7G Tape 347 l.JH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister for Harbour Hain - Bell Island. NR. DOODY: The hen. member further outlines and expresses the frustration of the situ~tion.·It is not as the hen. member well knows done on the basis of individuals, it is done on the basis of communtties whirh makes it even more absurb.

The theory is_at least I have suggested in desperation and frustration at one time 1 it would be perhaps more economical for the Province of ~ewfoundland to move people from coffimunity to community over the period of a year so that they could qualify because they lived in Nakkovik for a certain period of tiLile to be eligible for a larger share of t:1e pie than if they lived in some other communitY.Lt underlines the aDsur .C11tY or tne situation tnat it really ilas notning at all to do with what it purports to represent and that is the Inuit and Indian population on the amount of funding that should be provided for them.It is an absurb situation.

It is obviously a bureaucratic solution to something that has never been rationalized in terms of people and it is one that I fully agree has got to be changed. ' I cannot defend the policy because it is one that is indefensible and it is certainly not one of our making.! can only agree with the hon. member that it is a ridiculous situation and one that is insupportable. The hon. t:~ember for Trinity - Bay de Verde, followed by the hen. gentleman for LaPoile. MR. F. ROWE: I tJould like to address a question to the ~finister of Fisheries, Sir.

In view of the fact that the amount of storm daiJ.age on the \-!est Coast,I understand,and also on the East Coast to private fisi1ermen with respect to their gear and facilities that are not unde.r the jurisuiction of the federal / provincial government, has the - ~ : inister of Fisheries attempted to design any sort of formula or program in order to assist these particular fishermen in order to help them to replace their loss of gear through recent storms,or loss or stages or other fish handling facilities ? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. HR. \-1. CARTER: Hr.

Speaker, :iS the hon. member knows the Province does not have an ongoing gear for fishing facility replacement progra:n ,Jnly in cases where tnere are substantia:!. losses, $5 ')0, 000 or more,

April 11, 1978 r al'e 847 MR. W. CARTER: would the federal I provincial formula fall in place. We have looked at the possibility of coming up vrith a gear and a facility insurance program.i..ast year we had a ccmmittee who worked lvith the fishermen's union and others to put together a sub­ mission which was later sent to Ottawa tvith a request that they study it and hopefully participate in its cost.rhat program is stilled being studied. We have people within the departments 1 orking with others to seek ways and means of putting in place some kind of an insurance ;:>rogram. ~!r.

Speaker, I am-sure that the han. metuber 1vill appreciate :!.t is not an easy matter. In the course of a year there are a number of storms that cause damages at one degree or another.rlle one to which he is referring,the one on the West Coast, I believe incurred about a $60,000 damage cost.;:;ertainly the matter is bein£ considered as soon as we can put together "'hat we ti1ink will be a feasible insurance progra-m tl1en we will be very happy to do so. MR. F. RO'-'E: NR. Sl'EAL<ER: MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, is the minister aware of the fact that as far back as 1972,five years ago,in the election Throne Speecn that ti:e goverruaent promised that legislation 1-lould be introduced as early as possible ' to establish in conjunction lvith the federal governueut an inexpensive share_~:icost insurance program covering loss of fishing gear for the fishermen. (low is the minister saying that that promise was ma.Ie in a Throne Speech "'itnout having consulted and gotten agreement fran: the federal government before promising tilat particular legislation ·:· Are they still negotiating with the federal government five years later 7 T~1e hon. llinis ter of Fisheries. ~:R. 1.·.

CARTBR: The hon • .members should kno"' that the federal government did intend,in fact they announced tt.eir intention to join with the provinces in coming up with a lobster pot insurance program and hopefully it would be extended to take in other forms of gear. The ~rovince agreed to accept its responsibility,which I believe at that time cost ~9U ,OUU ,wnict would be the provincial share the cost sharing program.Cabinet did abree to spend that amount of

April 11, 1978 Tape 848 EC - 1 MR. W. CARTER: money. It was only later that we learned that the federal government had scrapped the idea. We have made representation to Ottawa with respect to that programme and others, and the fact that it was mentioned in the Throne Speech of 19 75, I am sure, was on the basis of indications received by the federal government, from Ottawa, to the extent that that programme was then being considered; in fact, a decision was made but later rescinded by the federal authorities, and consequently Ne had no gear insurance programme. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. HR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, it is terrible, you know, The minister once again has not answered the question but is making a speech on a completely different topic.

I asked the minister if, in fact, in 1972 when legislation was promised during that particular year, an agreement had been reached with Ottawa for an inexpensive shared cost insurance programme to cover the loss of gear, and if there has not been any agreement then or since,has the minister's department any plans to take care of the fishermen who have private gear or private fish handling facilities not under the jurisdiction of the provincial government or the federal government, some sort of a provincial programme to take care of their loss of gear - private fishermen, private stages~ private sheds? ~lR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: (Inaudible) to answer the first part of the question, but I can only assume that if the government in 1972 announced its intention to enter into a low-cost gear insurance programme that they must have bad some grounds for making that statement. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: With respect to the latter part of the question, I think the hon. member should know that it was only last year that we announced a subsidy on fish landings, the purpose for which was to help fishermen replace lost gear and worn out gear, and I am told ~~ < ,.

April 11, 1978 Tape 84S EC - 2 MR. W. CARTER: in my travels and with people I have talked with - fishermen - that in many cases that programme is working very well. Hind you, it is probably not enough, we would certainly like to double it, but I am not getting any complaints about it. The programme last year cost, I believe, in excess of $2 million and while it might not serve ~11 of tte problems that the fishermen are encountering, certainly it is going a long way toward that end. But I repeat that we did make representation to Ottawa with a view to having a gear insurance programme put in place.

Ottawa did not see fit to agree to our recommendation, In fact, they rejected it on the basis that the programme itself would probably have to be compulsory, that it would be mandatory for a fisherman to take

part in the programme. And that was the reason, or maybe the excuse used by Ottawa for rejecting our proposal, but the fact is that the matter is still under consideration; it is being looked at by experts in the insurance industry and others with a view to finding a way where such a programme can be put in place. i-· ·"- AN RON.-. MEMBER: One final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated that would be the final. The hen. ~ember for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: }1y question is for the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation, Sir, and it does not have to do with Exon House today .

I am hoping the minister will make a ministerial statement in a day or so on the Exon House affair. I want to ask the minister about the Summer Games. Would the minister indicate to the House if additional funds have been requested from the government to pay off the deficit that was incurred by the Summer Games Committee? And would the minister indicate if there has been any representation made to his department or to the government with regard to the Aquarena - getting it reopened and so on? Could the minister just tell us the status of that particular situation? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation.

Ap r il 11 , 1978 Tape 848 EC - 3 MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any di:tec ,t request from the SUIIIIIIer Games Committee to my department. I cannot say for certain that there is not something there toQ.ay or yesterday, but certainly there has been nothing brought to my attention by my staff with regard to a request. I am aware that there has been dialogue between tb.e Committee and Ottawa with regard to finances. I cannot go beyond that to say just what is involved or amounts or anything of that nature.

With r~gard to the second part of the question, the Aquaren:a, the situation there is we are waiting for the report from Judge Steele as to what is to be done with that facility and as soon as that is re.ceived, govenunent wiil tak.e a position and make a decision, and of course, we will announce it. ?,JR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Time will p.ermit one supplementary.

April 11, 1978 Tape No. 849 Nl1 - 1 MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate who was responsible for the Summer Games? Who were the sponsors? Has it the city or was it the provincial government? My understanding was the Provin~e were really the sponsors of the games. And would the minister indicate the amount of the deficit that was incurred by the Summer Games Committee and what arrangements are going to be made to pay t he creditors that are owed the money by the Summer Games? :m.. SPE.A..'<ER: The hon. Hi.nister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, number one, the responsiblity for the Summer Games was the committee, which of course was established by the city, the city having taken the initiative and had in fact attracted the Summer Games here. The position of the Province was simpl y one of a contributory nature inasmuch as we made available to that Committee a sizeable amount of money, contribution, much larger than certainly other provinces found themselves in a position to make, because of the fact that the federal government did not provide as much in fact as they should have.

And that,I might say, is a matter which there is dialogue going on on at the moment. Insofar as the amount of the deficit is concerned, Mr. Speaker, I am unaware of the amount. In fact I have asked my staff the same question and they have not been able to tell me. There are some figures flying around. I certainly would not hazard or take a chance on repeating them because they are onl y hearsay, and those figures I might say come to us from the Ottawa source as opposed to the local source. Finally, ~rr.

Speaker, my department are not involved insofar as any winding up, or any financial responsibilities , inasmuchas while the Canada Summer Games,as I said,was to a very large degree supported by the federal government, certainly the overall responsibility does not rest with the government. MR. NEARY: Who does the auditing?

.... -- """ - ~ . " .\priFll, 19-78 Tape i<o. 849 ORDERS OF THE DAY : On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, }~. Speaker left the Chair. HR. CHAIRMA.~ : Order, please! The hen. l1inister of Forestry and Agriculture. :-IR. HATI'IARD : Hr. Chairman, I would just like to say a few words in the few minutes that are left on the time for the estimates of the Department of Forestry and Agriculture, hopefully to answer a few at least of the questions that were asked last night during the debate. MR. SI:UllNS: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! A point of order.

HR. snmm1s: Mr. Chairman, I heard l1r. Chairman call order but I was waiting for the head to be called. There are numbers on this side who >vanted to speak. We assume that forestry would be continued with but we had not been told by the Chair. Order, please! I think the hon. member is correct in that I did inadvertently leave out the head. I called order and when the minister arose, knowing we were still on salaries,I recognized the minister. But I agree I should have called the head and possibly the only way to do it is to do it again and that is - MR. SUlMDNS: Mr.

Chairman, I have no quarrel with your having designated the minister except we did not have a fair opportunity, and all I want to point out is that we have limited time and a number of us want to say things, so perhaps if the minister can be brief we can say what we have to say too.

._ April 11, 1978 Tape ~o. 850 !!:1 - 1 }ffi.. CHAIRHAN : Heading 1201-01. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Chairman, if hon. members want to speak, if they will leave me just a few minutes at the end I would be quite happy in order to clue it up. 1-ffi.. CHAIRlfAH : l1R. STill-IONS: twenty-five minutes? NR. CHAI~IA.'l: MR. SIMHONS: The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. Thank you, l~. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, do I understand we have about Twenty-five minutes, yes. Well I shall be very brief because I know there are other speakers.

There are a number of things I .vould like to say on this subject but I am prepared to '~ait until we get on to the Budget debate, if we ever do. Just a quick point, Hr. Chairman, that I would like the minister to raise in his concluding re~rks, and it relates to the Bowater timber limits. Now these limits affect a number of areas of the Island, and my specific question relates to the Bay d' Espoir area.

I would recall for the minister that one of his predecessors in the portfolio, the present Minister of ~Anpower and Labour, during his tenure in that portfolio, the forestry portfolio, indicated about two years ago at this time, that he fully expected to have the Bowater timber limits matter resolved as it effected Bay d'Espoir, resolved by Xay 15th. of that year, that was May 15th., 1976.

And he indicated that in this House, in response to questions from me, he indicated that on or about the middle of April, or the 1st. of April perhaps, that four to six weeks hence he would have resolved, or his department would have resolved the Bowater timber limits problem.

Hell it comes as no news to the minister that the issue is far from resolved at the present moment, and I will not take the time of the House now to elaborate on what the ramifications are for the Bay d'Espoir are~ except to repeat again that the Bowater timber concessions, the Bowater holdings in the Bay d'Espoir area, are having an adverse effect on the economy, are preventing so~ae lvorthlvhile

.,.-- April 11, 1978 Tape ;~o. 850 Ni.1 - 2 HR. SIMl-IONS: job creation, I am thinking in particular of the Ralland mill, but also of the small sawmills in the area. I would like the minister in concluding to respond to the item, in particular to tell us what is being done, or if he has thrown up his hands on this one, if anything can be done in the view of the department. :lR. CHAIR!·!AJ.'I: :·lR. FLIGHT: The han. member for 1-l'indsor - Buchans. :-lr. Chairman, due to the limited time I 'N"ill try to keep my few remarks very urief. It is important, Hr.

Chairman, to realize that this minister is administering,spending $18 million of public money in this Province. And it is important that it would appear that that money is well spent and we are getting value for that money. So I am f;Oing to recap very quickly, Hr. Speaker; I raised~up to this point in the debate, on behalf of this side of the House, and the minister has had at least three, four chances to address himself to some of the issues that I have raised and in most issues he has avoided the issues 1 he has not addressed himself to certain aspects of the points raised.

So I am going to recap, very quickly, :!r. Speaker, what we feel to be very fundamental to good forest management in this Province. Mr. Chairman, the salvaging programme of the 5 million cords presently dead in this Province- the minister yesterday indicated that the paper companies would possibly salvage 2.5 million cords, that leaves 2.5 million lost to the economy of this Province. Now has the minister, or his department, pursued the export market?

In his ministerial statement today, the minister indicated that it is difficult to salvage the budworm infested, or the moribund deadwood because it is in among live timber. Well that is not so in all cases. That may be so in one~but I have had the opportunity to fly over, do overflights over the Serpentine Valley, Mr. Chairman, and that is on Bowater holdings. and it is a massive tract of land there and every tree there is dead. You could go in there and do a clear cutting programme and cut nothing .

April 11, 1977 Tape No. 850 NH - 3 J1R. FLIGHT: The only thing you would find alive in there is birch. Can Bowaters, with all their potential for cutting, can Bowaters possibly salvage all that1 I sincerely doubt it. If they did salvage it they could not use it. So is it dead to a point where it has no economic value from an exporting point of view? Hell that is the type of thing - the minister is sitting there nodding now. There •.vas no reason why the minister could not have - this issue t•as raised before. Proper forest management, Hr. Speaker.

The paper companies are required to spend in this Province seven and a half cents per acre, for every acre that they submit a management plan on and that is properly managed. l-7ell it is significant to note, :·!r. Speaker, that under that legislation they are required to pay one per cent of the value of the timber on lands that tvere ~ot considered properly nanaged.

And it is interesting to note that to date they have not paid anything in the high category, tvhich means that any criticism that anyone had in this Province about the forest management of the paper companies ten years ago, if it were true then it is true now. IVhat do we accomplish by bringing in the forest management policy that says you pay one per cent of the value of your timber on lands that we do not deem properly managed. The Department of Forestry have accepted apparently, that all the lands lying tvithin the limits of the two paper companies are indeed properly managed, because they have not collected.

Either we have not had the clout or

'{ April 11, 1978, Tape 851, Page 1 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: we do not have the expertise. I suspect the paper companies have a lot more expertise at their disposal than we have. If that is so, Mr. Chairman, then we do not control the destiny of our forests. We are not controlling our own resource, we are still listening to what the paper companies are telling us. Mr. Chairman, if that is the case we would be better off spending the whole $18 million on the kind of expertise we need to advise us as to what is the proper approach and what is or what is not good management. Sawmilling, Mr. Chairman?

Crown lands in this Province cannot sustain a sawmill industry in this Province. There may be areas in the Province, specific areas that will sustain a small sawmill operation or a medium sized sawmill operation, but by and large the Crown lands in this Province cannot sustain a sawmill industry, the type that we have envisioned, and for all our sawmillers in this Province presently in business, presenflY located to continue and have a viable, economic, prosperous future.

Either the Department of Forestry and the paper companies accept this as a fact and sit down and work out some arrangements whereby timber limits can be made available to our sawrnillers, or the sawmill industry by and large in this Province is doomed to total and complete collapse and failure. Mr. Chairman, enough has been said on Crown lands.

The minister promised a statement over the next few days that will clarify Crown Lands 1 position with regard to how they intend to deal with the cabins and other properties, and how they intend to deal equ itably,we hope, with the people who have been threatened with law suits and threatened with having their Summer cottages burned down. We will await that statement, Mr. Chairman.

April 11, 1978, Tape 851, Page 2 -~ apb MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Chairman, also there are communities in this Province that are situated right smack in the middle of the paper companies' limits again, a twenty, thirty mile radius of the communities is completely controlled by the paper mills; We have million cords of ~qod dead on the stump in this Province, yet an individual iving within the boundaries, within the limits of the paper companies cannot get permission to cut a log to build on a porch, or to build a new house, or to put on an extension. And that is good corporate citizenship?

When was the last time the minister sat down with the paper companies and suggested that it would not put them out of business to let a man who lives in a community that is smack in the centre of Price (Nfld.) or Bowaters' limits have per.mission,to reward the initiative of anyone wno is prepared to go in and cut their own logs and build their own houses? It is unreal and unjust, Mr. Chairman, that the paper companies should wield that type of power in this Province. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to hear other speakers in this debate who have points to make, the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), for one 1 and I want to hear the minister address himself to the issues that he has not addressed himself to at this point. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest, Sir, that either the minister takes seriously some of the issues raised in this debate or this Province will not realize the full value and the full potential of our forest resource. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, all I want to do is just put two or three quick questions to the minister because we are rapidly running out of time.

We only have about twelve or fourteen or fifteen minutes,at the most, left and I would like to get the answers to two or three -~

April ll, 1978, Tape 851, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: questions. First at all, in connection with the insecticide that is going to be used in the spraying for the spruce budworrn,could the minister tell us if there is only one firm manufactures this insecticide "or if tbe.re is more than one firm, if public tenders were called tor the insecticide? If there is only one firm would the minister indicate to the House if the government is dealing directly with that manufacturer or if the government insisted that some middleman be set up in this Province from which to purchase the insecticide?

Now I have hea r d- rumours, and I am not prepared at this point in time to make any allegations, I just want to find out the procedure that was used,rumours that the government insisted that a middleman be set up here in the Province to purchase ~~at insecticide. I would like for the minister to discount that. Mr. Chairman, perhaps the minister could also tell us if there is a surplus of seedlings at the moment. I understand that the government's reforestation programme has failed and that they now have a surplus of seedlings. Mr.

Speaker, I should like to move that the minister's salary be reduced to one dollar. l I I I~ . .. 7 I ~-

April 11, 1978, Tape 852, Page 1 -- apb MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is that the minister's salary be reduced to one dollar. Is the Committee ready for the question? All those in favour of the motion indicate by saying 'aye', all those contrary indicate by saying 'nay'. In my opinion the 'nays' have it. AN HON. MEMBER: Count. MR. CHAIRMAN: Count the vote. Those who voted when the question was put should now vote again. All those in indicating in the affirmative indicate by standing in their place. All those against indicate by standing in their place.

I declare the motion carried with the count thirteen in the affirmative and eleven against. MR. NEARY: Mr. · Chairman, as Your Honour realizes, that is a very serious matter, Sir; it is a vote of non-confidence in the government. I move the Committee rise and not report to the House, Sir. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, that motion is totally out of order because of the

preamble that was given by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I think this matter was the subject matter of debate a couple of days ago. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! My understanding is that the motion is that the Committee rise and make no report. MR. WELLS: To a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order has come up. MR. WELLS: My point of order is that that being a motion that the Committee rise and, you say, • r ! make no report. Such a motion, it is my understanding, Mr. Chairman, would be a debatable motion. So that if not out of order, it is certainly a debatable motion. The only motion, Mr. Chairman, as I understand that is not f

April 11, 1978, Tape 852, Page 2 -- apb MR. WELLS: debatable is the simple motion that the Committee rise, nothing else, That i~ not debatable. Any other motion MR. NEARY: The Committee rise and report progress or the Committee rise and not report. MR. WELLS: No, that is, as I understand it, a debatable motion. The Table will tell us, but if so then we must now begin to debate that motion, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, just to clarify the situation, Sir, there has been a vote - MR. CHAIRMAN: Is this to the point of order? MR. NEARY: Yes, to the point of order, Sir. It is completely irrelevant anyway.

There has been a vote of non-confidence in the government. AN HON • MEMBER: There has not. MR. NEARY: Oh, yes, Mr. Chairman, a defeat on a money matter, Sir, in Committee is to reduce the minister's salary. As a matter of fact, that is the only vote of non-confidence in Committee. There has been a vote of non-confidence, Sir, in the government and Your Honour has no recourse but to rise the Committee. AN HON. MEMBER: And resign. MR. NEARY: Well, we will have to debate it when the Speaker comes back to the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! In regard to the - MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Chairman, may I speak to the point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, to the point of order. Certainly it is always in order for a motion that would have the Committee rise and report to the House what went on in the Committee. That is a very simple motion which ·' I

- ?' :? April ll, 1978, Tape 852, Page 3 -:__ apb MR. SIMMONS: would put in "N'Or.ds that the Committee met, certain things transpired and here is our report to the House. Now if we get to the point in this House where a Committee of the House so strangles itself procedurally that you cannot have a motion to report back to the House what you have done, then this whole business is completely irrelevant. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that all the motion is doing,if carried, is agreeing that this Committee will report back to the full House that certain things have transpired in Committee. Then it is a matter for Mr.

Speaker to deal with in the full House. But to suggest for one second, Mr. Chairman, that we cannot resolve in Committee to report our activities to the House is ridiculous beyond the extreme. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I would refer bon. members to Standing Order Number 45 which reads as follows: "A motion that the Chairman leave the Chair is always in order, shall take precedence of any other motion, and shall not be debatable~ and so on. If I may refer han. members now to Beauchesne in the fourth edition page 203,

section 242, -subsection 2 which reads al? follows: "The only motion allowed when a resolution is under consideration in Committee of Supply is that the amount be reduced or that the Chairman leave the Chair (either without making a report or to ·I

· ~ · · ""'""'" April 11, 191 3 Tape llo. 853 :;~ - 1 HR. CHAIRliAN : report progress on certain resolutions). It is my understanding that the motion made was that the Committee rise, the Chairman leave the Chair and make no report. My understanding from what I have read is that this is in order. So that the Committee will nm.; rise and make no report. That is the motion. I would point out that the question has been put and then points of order arose, and since that time there may have been members who did come into the House.

The rules are clear on this, that when the question is put, members in t h e House may vote, but any members that do come into the House follo wing the putting of the question are not permitted to vote in Committee. SOHE HON. ~ !EMB ERS : Hear, hear~ l!R. CHAIRlfAl'l: The Chair is not in the position to know exactly who came in and so hon. members therefore have it in their own hands whether they are permitted to vote or not. Just to repeat, the motion is that the Committee rise and no report be made. The question has already been put. A number of points of order arose that clarified the motion.

These have been clarified and the vote is now called and those who were present when the question was put are permitted to vote. Those in favour indicate by saying, "Aye," those contrary indicate by saying, "Nay." I am unable to decide the vote on the voice count so those in favour indicate by standing in their place 1 those who were present when the question was put. Those against indicate by rising in their place. I declare the motion carried, twelve being in favour, and thirteen against. So the Committee will now rise and no report will be made. HR. HICKMAN: How many did you say against~ NR.

CHAIRl-IAN: Thirteen in favour, twelve against. MR. SPEAKER: I note that the Committee has risen and that no report is being made.

·- April 11, 1978 Tape No . 853 ~H -· 2 HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. :MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile on a point of privilege. :MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in Committee of the Hhole, Your Honour, I made a motion, that the Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture's salary be reduced to $1.00 and that motion was carried, Your Honour. And as Your Honour knows, traditionally that is a vote of non-c~nfidence in the government. Now Your Honour has no choice but to adjourn the House at this point in time, or the gover~ent could move if they wanted to, a vote of confidence which is a debatable motion.

But we cannot carry on any further the business of the House, Sir. And Your Honour has no choice now but to take directions from the House and I am directing Your Honour, from this side of the House, Your Honour has to take directions from the House, that the House now adjourn, Sir, and that the Premier go down to the Lieutenant-Governor and pass in his resignation and that we have a provincial general election. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Government House Leader. MR.

HICKHA..'l': The hon. gentleman is fully aware that a motion or a vote in Committee, in re - if the hon. gentleman would like a reference, in the Committee in Parliament that was presided over by Deputy Speaker Batten - is not a motion of non-confidence. There is simply a report of the Co~ttee to ~rr. Speaker, and the report of the Committee is that there is no progress and when that report is, I submit, presented to Nr. Speaker .. ..

April 11, 1978 Tape 854 IB-1 MR. HICKMAN: presented to Mr. Speaker~ ~1e question put to the House is whether or not the report of the Committee is received• And if the report of the Committee is received, then the House subject to motion goes back into Committee again. By no stretch of the imagination are we in a situation where the House must adjourn or alternatively where there is a motion of non-confidence. MR. W. ROWE: A point of order, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: The han. House leader on the other side made reference to a precedence in the House of Commons in Ottawa.

Your Honour will remember and can perhaps take judicial notice of the fact that it was thought necessary by the government of that day,Sir, on a motion passed in Committee which showed that the Committee at that time had no confidence in the administration, the government of that day found it necessary to bring in a vote of confidence in Her Majesty's administration . MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. W. ROWE: Without that, Sir, the judicial authorities, the constitutional authorities were very doubtful as to the standing of the government having been defeated in Committee. And this is no joking matter, Mr.

Speaker, as some members opposite seem to want to make of it. This is a matter, Sir, where a minister did not get the support of the House when a request was made for his salary, which is a clear vote of no confidence in Her Majesty's administration in this Province, Sir. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. W. ROWE: Nobody is quite clear as to what all the procedure should be at this point in time.

But one thing is certain, Sir, that the matter of confidence in this government has to be cleared up and the best way of clearing that up is by a substantive motion • c in the House by the Premier or by the House leader and for this House to determine whether in fact this House does have confidence in

April 11, 197 8 Tape 854 MR. W. ROWE: Her Majesty's administration in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Grand Falls. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. House Leader and the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. W. Rowe) might be right if the research is done on the only precedent that we know, as I am aware of.in the last twelve or fifteen years in parliament, They might very well be right, that there might have to be a motion put which is debated on and voted on, a proper motion put. That might in fact be correct.

But then, Your Honour, hark back over the last fifteen or twenty minutes regarding the incident which led up to the present situation. Now first of all I might say, Your Honour, that one of the most amazing things which hits me about our present legislature is that when it comes to matterJof confidence, and when it comes to formal votes, there is such IB- 2 a loose arrangement made. Any other legislature that I am familiar with - and I am not familiar with all of them in any detail - usually there is a time frame in which a motion of confidence can be put to the legislature.

In the House of Commons, for example, a motion of confidence cannot be put except by forty-eight hours notice. Once it is then called you have a period of fifteen minutes,after the forty-eight hours have been served,wherein members can assemble. It is a formal procedure laid down, firm and formal,and usually it results in a fairly substantive motion regarding confidence in the government based on fiscal poli cy, economic policy and matters of this nature.

In the last few minutes what we have witnessed here is a motion which was put by the Leader of the Opposition - or the House leader rather, similar to yesterday ~r the Leader of the Opposition, where there was a casual setting in the legislature, members as they go and come, a casual setting in Committee, members where they go and come - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! This is an extremel y important point and I would wish to hear without interruption anv hon . member who does have

April 11, 1978 Tape 854 MR. SPEAKER: relevant submissions to make. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, a casual setting where members go and come. We are all familiar with this setting. The han. Premier was meeting a small delegation of people. The han. Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation (Mr. Hickey) - all right then, we all got our tape things on and our things turned up and we are aware of what is going on and there is a general debate and then there is a wrangling bac