2010 Legislative Session: Second Session, 39th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

official report of

Debates of the

Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Tuesday, April 27, 2010

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 16, Number 2

CONTENTS

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

Tributes

Dick Heath

Hon. B. Penner

Introduction and First Reading of Bills

Bill 15 — Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment Act, 2010

Hon. B. Penner

Statements (Standing Order 25B)

Creekside Studio and RCMP Musical Ride artwork

S. Fraser

Bob Blount and Osoyoos junior golf and scholarship programs

J. Slater

First Nations in Fraser-Nicola area

H. Lali

Teaching excellence

T. Lake

Awards for New Westminster residents

D. Black

Swedish heritage in B.C.

R. Sultan

Oral Questions

Implementation of harmonized sales tax

C. James

Hon. C. Hansen

B. Ralston

J. Kwan

B. Simpson

M. Mungall

Impact of harmonized sales tax on arts and culture

S. Chandra Herbert

Hon. C. Hansen

Impact of harmonized sales tax on membership costs

R. Chouhan

Hon. C. Hansen

Impact of harmonized sales tax on families

M. Farnworth

Hon. C. Hansen

Statements

Release of Children and Youth Committee information

M. Karagianis

Tabling Documents

Forest Appeals Commission, annual report, 2009

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills

Bill 9 — Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act (continued)

On the amendment (continued)

J. McIntyre

D. Thorne

R. Cantelon

J. Horgan

N. Letnick

S. Chandra Herbert

Hon. I. Chong

B. Ralston

Speaker's Statement

Standing divisions on Bill 9

Speaker's Ruling

Motion to refer a bill to Committee of the Whole not subject to debate or division

Second Reading of Bills

Bill 11 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (N o . 2), 2010

Hon. M. de Jong

L. Krog

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development

Hon. M. Stilwell

D. Black

C. Trevena

S. Fraser

M. Mungall

J. Brar

S. Hammell

K. Corrigan

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TUESDAY, APRIL 27, 2010

The House met at 1:37 p.m.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

Hon. G. Campbell: It gives me great pleasure to welcome back to the precinct Rick Thorpe and his beautiful wife, Yasmin. They continue to make major contributions in their community in the South Okanagan. I hope the House will make them welcome.

It's great to see both of you again.

D. Thorne: Today it's my pleasure to make an introduction on behalf of the member for Vancouver-Kensington, who is not in the House. I would like to introduce the grade 6 students and their six parent chaperones, along with their teacher Miss Laurie Cassie, from David Livingstone Elementary. I would like the House to make them very, very welcome on behalf of the member for Vancouver-Kensington.

Hon. B. Bennett: All of us have met characters in our lives and people who are interesting and people whose image always kind of sticks in your mind because they're so colourful, and they're just interesting people to know. Well, there's one of those people in the gallery today that I've gotten to know and, actually, many of the members have gotten to know, probably from both sides of the House.

He is an electoral area director from the regional district of Central Kootenay. He's also the chair of the regional district of East Kootenay hospital board. He wears a black cowboy hat, and his name is John Kettle. Please help me make him welcome.

S. Fraser: Visiting in the gallery today are Joan Larson and Paul Smith. They're constituents of mine. They live near Coombs. They own and operate Creekside Studio. Joan's an amazing artist. Please make both Joan and Paul feel very, very welcome.

Hon. S. Bond: I am delighted, on behalf of my colleagues from Nechako Lakes and Prince George–Mackenzie, to welcome to the gallery today our mayor from Prince George. He's down today to share some of the vision that he and his council colleagues have for our city. We were excited to hear about those today. I know that he's also celebrating several achievement winners tomorrow at the Community Achievement Awards. Please join me in making our mayor very welcome in the precinct today.

M. Mungall: I'm very fortunate today to have two guests from my constituency, hailing from Nelson. They're avid skiers and history buffs, Frances and Ron Welwood.

I would be remiss to sit down and not say a special hello to my good friend John Kettle. As the Minister for Community and Rural Development alluded to, he has a nice big black hat, and I actually got one of those big black hats, sitting in my office in Nelson, because I won the election.

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Hon. S. Thomson: I've a special guest here this afternoon, and I'd like to take a moment to pay tribute to an outstanding public servant who has joined us and who is with us here today, and that's Erik Karlsen.

Erik is a professional land use planner. He's had a distinguished career in public service. He's got a long career in sustainable development, and he's worked in all levels in government, including 29 years working for the province of B.C. He's held many consultant and advisory roles.

More importantly, for the last five years Erik has served as chair of our Agricultural Land Commission, and he is retiring in just a few days, at the end of this week. I want to recognize and thank him for his work with the commission, supporting agriculture and supporting the preservation of farmland.

He's also joined here today by his wife, Hazel, who has joined him. I'm sure she's quite happy to have Erik back towards full retirement. I know she's looking forward to it.

I'd ask the House to join me in welcoming them both here today and in thanking Erik for his years of public service to the province of British Columbia and his five years with the Agricultural Land Commission as chair.

Hon. P. Bell: Old age is a terrible thing. The Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure, I have to remind, is about five months older than me. So I know what I have to look forward to, unfortunately.

We forgot to mention that the wonderful mayor of Prince George's name is Dan Rogers. I would ask that the House please make Dan very welcome again.

L. Reid: It is indeed a pleasure this afternoon to introduce an eminent guest. The Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of the Northwest Territories, the hon. Paul Delorey, is with us. Speaker Delorey is the member for Hay River North, and he has served three distinguished terms in his House. We are most pleased to have him with us, and I invite all members to make our guest very welcome.

D. Hayer: We have some very special guests here today. They are from the Fraser Valley Real Estate Board, and they were here discussing some very important issues to realtors and homebuyers, with the government MLAs as well as the opposition MLAs. They also hosted a very good reception and dinner for MLAs on both sides.

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Some of the very special guests from the Fraser Valley Real Estate Board are Deanna Horn, president; Jim McCaughan, past president of Fraser Valley Real Estate Board and regional director of BCREA; Rob Philipp, CEO; Rick Wood, assistant executive officer; Sukh Sidhu, president-elect; Brenda Lee, government relations committee member; and Scott Olson, vice-president and chair of the government relations committee.

Other members of the government relations committee are Jasbir Cheema; Gina Cowx; Monika Grant; Bernadine Jensen; Bettina-Marie Reid; Brian Rock; Sergio Tassone; AlNoor Teja; and Debbie Jay, communication coordinator.

Would the House please make them very welcome.

Tributes

DICK HEATH

Hon. B. Penner: I rise to ask that the House reflect on the passing of Dick Heath, who had been the Vancouver Island regional manager of environmental stewardship and of parks and protected areas. He passed away on Sunday.

Dick served this province well for over 25 years in both the Ministry of Environment and the Ministry of Forests and provided important advice to me as minister on a variety of challenging issues over the last few years.

As a professional forester, agrologist and biologist, his broad understanding of the natural resource sector proved invaluable to ensuring sustainable development of our shared resources. But perhaps he will best be remembered as a people's manager.

Dick was extremely hard-working, unselfish and a trustworthy manager, well liked and respected by his staff and peers and very supportive of all of them. He was an incredible family man and very proud of his wife, Cheryl, and his kids, Jessica and Andy. There has been an extremely sombre mood around the ministry the last couple of days, as everyone knew how tirelessly Dick worked on behalf of the environment and the public service.

There will be a get-together on Saturday at Rathtrevor Provincial Park, a place that was very special to Dick and his family, as staff and members of the family get together to reflect and remember the life of a remarkable man, who was truly a gentle spirit. He will be greatly missed.

Introduction and

First Reading of Bills

Bill 15 — Protected Areas of

British Columbia

Amendment Act, 2010

Hon. B. Penner: On the day that I just reflected on the passing of Dick Heath, it is my honour to introduce Bill 15.

Hon. B. Penner presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment Act, 2010.

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Hon. B. Penner: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. B. Penner: This bill contains amendments to the Protected Areas of British Columbia Act to continue this government's expansion of British Columbia's parks and protected areas system, with a net addition of 13,218 hectares.

This bill carries forward the work that has gone into the balancing of environmental stewardship with economic development, based on collaboration that has taken place between many stakeholders.

The provisions in this bill include the establishment of six new class A parks and additions to two existing class A parks in the Lillooet region in accordance with the Lillooet land and resource management plan; the establishment of a new class A park in the Kamloops region in accordance with the Kamloops land and resource management plan; the establishment of a new conservancy protecting the Erie Creek watershed near Pemberton, following an agreement with the Lil'wat First Nation; and adding land to ten existing class A parks around the province.

If passed, these amendments will bring the number of class A parks established in the province to 611 and the number of conservancies established in the province to 144. In addition, minor boundary modifications are being made to seven existing class A parks and two existing conservancies.

Finally, a change to the name of one existing class A park is included in this bill as a result of discussions with the Wet'suwet'en First Nation.

I move that this bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 15, Protected Areas of British Columbia Amendment Act, 2010, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Statements

(Standing Order 25B)

CREEKSIDE STUDIO AND

RCMP MUSICAL RIDE ARTWORK

S. Fraser: There are times in our communities when greatness shows itself. I believe that what I am about to describe falls into that category.

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Recently I was invited to Creekside Studio near Qualicum Beach, owned and operated by artist Joan Larson and her husband, Paul Smith, who are visiting us today. Joan is arguably the best equine artist in the world. A proud Canadian, Joan grew up in a small prairie town until moving to Vancouver Island as a child. She worked tirelessly at her craft, perfecting her art, and was awarded the designation of Premier Pastellist with the Pastel Society of Canada.

She is embarking on a series of paintings celebrating the RCMP Musical Ride. When I visited her gallery, I was quite frankly in awe. I recall seeing the musical ride when I was a child, and this brought it right back to me. The quality of this work is phenomenal.

Joan Larson's depictions of this Canadian iconic event are simply magnificent. Her and Paul's vision is to take this series on tour to any and all communities that are interested and that have never been able to have the opportunity to host or sponsor a series of paintings of this magnitude or the musical ride itself.

In 2007 Joan began the first of her planned series of 20 paintings depicting the life of the RCMP Musical Ride. Last summer Creekside Studio created a special poster commemorating the B.C. tour of the musical ride. Proceeds from the sale of this poster during the ride performances went to a charity helping fund local B.C. communities.

Joan's ultimate quest is to showcase the series at the National Gallery in Ottawa and bring these marvellous paintings of this major part of Canadian history past, present and future to the Canadian public. I urge everyone to check out her work on the website www.canadarides.ca. The collection is destined to be known as a significant statement of Canadian heritage for generations to enjoy.

BOB BLOUNT AND OSOYOOS JUNIOR GOLF

AND SCHOLARSHIP PROGRAMS

J. Slater: Last week we celebrated National Volunteer Week to show our gratitude and support for the millions of volunteers who donate their time and energy. Not only are volunteers essential to the operation and success of community services; they are a driving force behind progressive change and the overall betterment of British Columbia.

I would like to recognize one of the many volunteers in my riding who 14 years ago started and is still the driving force behind the junior golf program at the Osoyoos Golf and Country Club. Bob Blount, who is an avid golfer, found that after retiring from teaching, he still wanted to have input and access to young, eager minds.

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The program runs from mid-June to the end of August and finishes up with an adult-junior golf tournament that includes an awards banquet. The program is open to boys and girls aged seven to 16 years old. When it started, enrolment was 30 students. Now it's up to 55.

Bob, through the junior golf program, also oversees a memorial scholarship for graduating students from Osoyoos Secondary School. There are three guiding principles that personify the individual that the scholarship honours, and they are a high interest in education and scholastic achievement, qualities of leadership and involvement in school clubs and community, and demonstrates athletic ability combined with sportsmanship.

The scholarship has been given out for the past seven years to students who represent their school and community just like the namesake did. In closing, I would like to extend my personal gratitude for the time he donates and especially for overseeing my son Chris Slater's memorial scholarship.

FIRST NATIONS IN

FRASER-NICOLA AREA

H. Lali: Aboriginal people comprise about 4½ percent of the population of British Columbia. In my constituency, first nations are a very important part of our social and cultural mosaic and have a huge impact on the economy, specifically in forestry and agriculture and also in politics.

In Fraser-Nicola there are 26 Indian bands comprising 23 percent of the population. Since 1991, I have had the honour of representing aboriginal people belonging to the Stó:lô, Okanagan, St'at'imc, the Secwepemc or Shuswap, and Nlaka'pamux.

The Nlaka'pamux are the largest group, and their traditional territory includes parts of the North Cascades region of Washington State. The Nlaka'pamux head chief David Spintlum, who lived from 1812 to 1887, described the posts or boundaries of the Nlaka'pamux territory for ethnographer James Teit as follows. I would add that the language is a bit dated.

"One post up the Fraser at Fountain, one down the Fraser at Spuzzum, one up the Thompson River at Ashcroft, one up the Nicola River at Quilchena, one down the Similkameen River at Tcutcuwixa, near Hedley. All the country between these posts is my country and the lands of my people. At Lytton is my centre post. It is the middle of my house, and I sit there.

"All the country to the headwaters of all the streams running into the valleys between these posts is also my territory, in which my children gather food. We extend to meet the boundaries of the hunting territories of other tribes. All around over this country I have spoken of, I have jurisdiction. I know no white man's boundaries or posts. If the whites have put up posts and divided my country, I do not recognize them. They have not consulted me. They have broken my house without my consent.

"All Indian tribes have the same as posts and recognize boundaries, and the chiefs know them since long before the first white man came in the country."

In the Merritt area, the Nlaka'pamux refer to themselves as Scw'exmx and speak a different dialect of the Thompson language. Together with the Spaxomin people near

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Douglas Lake, they are collectively known as the Nicola people or Nicolas, hence the name Fraser-Nicola.

TEACHING EXCELLENCE

T. Lake: It is well known that of all the factors that can influence students' success — including class size, teaching method, technology and textbooks — the most important by far is the quality of the teacher. Kati Haycock of the Education Trust cites research that shows that kids who have two, three or four strong teachers in a row will eventually excel no matter what their background, while kids who have even two weak teachers in a row will never recover.

We can all think back to our school or post-secondary experiences and think of those teachers that had such a positive impact on our education — the teachers who had a passion not just for their area of study but for teaching itself. That passion made us hungry to learn while we were at school and in our later lives when the formal exams were long finished.

This recognition of the value of teaching excellence is the underpinning of the attempt by our neighbours in the United States to pull up an education system that lags the rest of the western world. Great teachers and principals are being rewarded by President Obama, who understands the critical need for an educated society in our ever-shrinking and ever more competitive world.

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In Canada and particularly here in British Columbia, we are blessed with an abundance of great teachers. I am proud of those in my family who teach at both the elementary and the secondary level, and I know the tremendous positive influence they have on their students.

For me, teaching at Thompson Rivers University was a great honour, as I was fortunate to have colleagues like Dr. Wayne Hollingshead, a recipient of a TRU Master Teacher Award, who passed on his skills through faculty instructional skills workshops.

While our education system in B.C. is viewed as among the best in the world, it is not primarily due to the buildings, the governance or the computers, although all of these are important. It is our great teachers who deserve our thanks and respect. So today, as students start to think about the delicious summer holidays that are tantalizingly close, I would like to take the opportunity to say a big thank-you to the teachers of British Columbia.

AWARDS FOR

NEW WESTMINSTER RESIDENTS

D. Black: Last week the New Westminster Chamber of Commerce recognized the contributions of two amazing women in our community. Lori Pappajohn received the 2009 Bernie Legge Cultural Award. Laurie is a renowned Celtic harpist who has built an international reputation performing throughout Canada, the U.S., Britain and Chile. New Westminster is truly privileged to have someone like Lori sharing her musical talent within our community and around the world.

The 2009 Citizen of the Year award went to Mona Forsyth, coordinator of New Westminster's food bank. I am awed by Mona's energy and commitment. At 85 years of age, Mona leads a team of about 35 folks at the food bank, completely on a volunteer basis. She receives no payment for the work and service she provides.

Many food banks are not able to offer bread to their clients, but Mona goes more than the extra mile for people in need. She personally picks up donated bread from local supermarkets, a job that means collecting up to 500 loaves of bread daily. Because of her hard work, the New Westminster food bank feeds 500 people in our community every week. In ten years of volunteering with the food bank, Mona has only been absent for one day.

This year Mona's job has been even tougher because of an increasing demand for food bank services. Despite these challenges, day after day, month after month, Mona Forsyth selflessly provides outstanding service to those people in our community who are most in need. Although she wasn't expecting to win this award, it was richly deserved.

I am very pleased to congratulate these two women. Mona's energy and commitment and Lori's incredible talent make me proud to be from New Westminster.

SWEDISH HERITAGE IN B.C.

R. Sultan: What do ABBA, Ingrid Bergman, the Sedin twins and dynamite have in common? Sweden, of course.

Swedes have a long history in this province. My own parents came here before the turn of the century — the 19th century, that is. I learned a lot sitting on the hard front benches of the Swedish Lutheran Church. "Thou shalt not do this. Thou shalt not do that." It prepared for me life in the Legislature.

Swedes played a major role in building this province. In logging, for example, my brother-in-law Pete Holmquist could push a bucking saw through a three-foot log faster than anybody and proved it by winning the world championship. Mining, fishing, hardscrabble farming — if it took sweat and muscle, the Swedes were there. My father frequently quoted the Bible to us: "Work, for the night is coming."

Two weeks ago I accompanied the member for Burnaby North to the Scandinavian Community Centre in his riding for the opening of a historical exhibit. To many Swedes living in the Vancouver area, the Sweden House Society is their way of maintaining their Swedish roots and Swedish friendships. The member discovered an ancient photograph of me hiding behind a six-year-

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old, bringing back memories that this young girl was the person I first tried to kiss — very unsuccessfully, I might add.

The social democratic tradition of Sweden transplanted easily. Inspired in the 1930s by Marquis Childs' Sweden: The Middle Way , our political life was influenced by his argument that governments of the day did not have to choose between the extremes of communism or capitalism. There was a middle ground. Canadian politics is still skirmishing for that middle ground.

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I'm going back there this summer to learn more about the probable future shape of our Canadian health system. Anticipating that trip, let me practise on the Legislature my entire Swedish vocabulary. Mycket bra. Var sa god. Tack ska du ha. Skol!

Oral Questions

implementation of

harmonized sales tax

C. James: During the election campaign the B.C. Liberals said they had no plans to bring in the HST. After the election, in the middle of summer, they announced exactly that. They were bringing in the HST. "On July 1, start paying more for a whole number of things," they told British Columbians out of the blue.

Well, now it gets worse. They're forcing people to pay more starting on May 1. My question is to the minister. Why are British Columbians being forced to pay more for the HST two months before the implementation date?

Hon. C. Hansen: The principle is very simple.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. C. Hansen: Goods, generally speaking, if they are ordered after May 1 but before July 1, for delivery after July 1, are then going to actually be working in an HST world. But I take exception to the member's comment that most things would cost more, because, in fact, most things are going to be exactly the same or less in an HST world.

Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental.

C. James: I have to say to the minister that even Carole Taylor doesn't agree with that statement coming from the minister. Yesterday, when asked about the public reaction to the HST debate, the Government House Leader said: "People will think what they're going to think."

This is what the people of British Columbia know: the B.C. Liberals didn't tell them the truth about the HST. That's what the public knows in British Columbia. The government certainly didn't tell them they'd have to start paying it May 1, two months sooner than they told the public.

Whether it's gym memberships, home improvement, flights, arts and entertainment, British Columbians are going to start paying next week. The list goes on and on.

Again, my question is to the minister. Will the minister stand up in this House and tell the people of British Columbia why they should start paying more for the HST on May 1, a tax that they snuck in, in the middle of summer, a tax that they're slipping in without public consent in this province?

Hon. C. Hansen: The transition period from May 1 to July 1 is to make sure that British Columbians do not get faced with paying both PST and HST on goods and services in British Columbia. That is exactly why it is important that this Legislature get on with passing Bill 9 — to make sure that British Columbians are not faced with a PST system still in place when the additional 7 percent HST comes into effect.

Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental.

C. James: I don't know how many ways this minister can describe the difficulty that the public is going to have in paying the HST. Now it's a transition period, just another way to say that this government is taking more money from the people of British Columbia and didn't tell them about it. That's what transition period means.

People have been put on notice. Advertisements and flyers are advising the public to pay by May 1 to beat the HST. Here's the kind of advice being offered: "Beat the HST on 2010-11 season pass prices available until April 30." "Book your golf getaway by April 30. Beat the HST." "All subscriptions received after April 30 will be charged the HST."

Again, my question is to the minister. Why should British Columbians have to pay more for the HST two months before the implementation date, and when will the B.C. Liberals listen to the people of British Columbia and say no to the HST?

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Hon. C. Hansen: I can tell you what ads we'd be reading in the paper if the NDP had won the last election. It would be the small business community saying: "Closing out sale. Moving to Alberta."

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister.

[ Page 4904 ]

Hon. C. Hansen: I, too, have seen some of the ads. I heard one on the radio the other day talking about a condominium project that had condominiums that were valued from $279,000 up to $489,000. It said: "Buy now and beat the HST." Well, guess what. Condominiums and homes in British Columbian valued up to $550,000 will, in fact, be cheaper after HST is introduced.

B. Ralston: Tickets for sports events are just one of the many things that will cost more after May 1. An advertisement for the Prince George Cougars hockey team says this: "If fans purchase season's tickets for next season and pay in full by April 30, they will avoid paying the incoming HST."

That's just one of the many things, despite what the minister says, that will cost more after May 1. Can the minister explain why, after failing to tell British Columbians before the election that the Liberals were planning to bring in the HST, they didn't disclose the facts about when it would come into effect?

Hon. C. Hansen: There is no secret. It comes into effect on July 1. If someone is to buy goods or services that are going to be delivered after July 1, then they will have to be working in an HST world. But I also don't see the ads out there that are saying things like: "Wait to book your hotel room, because it's in fact going to be cheaper after July 1."

You've got the whole small business community that is actually looking forward to PST costs coming out of the goods and services that they buy, so they will actually be looking to save money, which will mean that the products and services they offer to their consumers are, in fact, going to be less.

We know that the elimination of the provincial sales tax and the adoption of the harmonized sales tax will mean more jobs in British Columbia, more money in people's pockets and more opportunity for people to enjoy a dynamic economy.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

B. Ralston: Well, small businesses will no longer be earning the PST commission, and it will take $1.1 million in revenue for small businesses to make up the lost PST commission. For most small businesses, it's a negative impact right away.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

B. Ralston: That's a quote from Shelfspace's Mark Startup, who knows something about retail.

This government hid the truth about the HST every step of the way. Now they're forcing people to pay more on May 1.

Again to the Minister of Finance: why does he insist on punishing people here in B.C. by bringing the tax into effect on May 1 for many items?

Hon. C. Hansen: The tax comes into effect on July 1. That is the date that the PST is eliminated and is replaced with a 7 percent provincial portion of the harmonized sales tax. The transition rules are to make sure that consumers get the benefit of having the PST removed before the HST is applied.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

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Hon. C. Hansen: If you look at the vast majority of goods and services in British Columbia, they are either not affected or they actually result in reduced prices. The transition rules are set up to make sure that all consumers and businesses in British Columbia are dealt with fairly.

J. Kwan: Give me a break already. The fact is that what the minister is talking about are services that are PST-exempt already. They don't have the PST that would apply to them without the HST.

The facts are this. The Liberals said no to the HST prior to the election. Now after the election they announced their HST agenda, but they didn't mention a thing about the April 30 deadline. British Columbians are now put on notice that effective April 30…. That is the last day that they have to buy the goods and services if they want to avoid the HST.

Here's an ad.…

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Member, just take your seat for a second.

Continue, Member.

J. Kwan: Here's an ad by a home improvement company. They said: "For the month of April we'll help you beat the taxman. But act quickly. This offer expires April 30."

My question to the Minister of Finance is this. Why should homeowners who want to fix their leaky roof in the summer be forced to scramble around now to get that work done in order to avoid this hated sales tax?

Hon. C. Hansen: Today if a homeowner is having a roof repair done, they will be paying PST — the builder, the contractor will be paying PST — on all of the materials. They will also be paying GST on all of the materials. The GST they get back; the PST they have to pass on to the consumer in the final purchase price.

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Issues like that are why the transition rules have been set up. The fact exists that if somebody buys something today…. It makes no difference as to whether they buy it now or whether they buy it in May or whether they buy it in June if they take delivery before July 1. If it's something they're taking delivery of after July 1, then they have to make sure that the transition rules are in place so they're dealt with fairly.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

J. Kwan: So now it's the home improvement companies that are telling mistruths. The Liberal government misled British Columbians and brought in the HST. They hid the truth from British Columbians about the actual implementation date. July 1 all of a sudden became May 1.

As a result, people are rushing around to do repair work, buy maintenance, buy services, plan their vacation or even buy their funeral burial plots in advance, well in advance of their time, in order to avoid this hated sales tax. Instead of forcing British Columbians into this frenzy….

I have a straightforward question for the Premier. Will the Premier finally do the right thing, apologize to the people of British Columbia for misleading them and scrap the HST?

Hon. C. Hansen: I'm not going to apologize for the fact that over the last ten years, British Columbia has become one of the most dynamic economies in North America. I'm not going to apologize for the fact that we got rid of the corporate capital tax in this province, which means there are more jobs created in British Columbia as a direct result. I will not apologize for the fact that in the last 8½ years, we've taken this province from being one of the most highly taxed jurisdictions under the NDP government to being one of the most competitive tax regimes.

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You know what has resulted from that, Mr. Speaker? What has resulted from that is a net increase in the number of people working in British Columbia — 390,000. The elimination of the PST and the adoption of the harmonized sales tax is going to mean that there will be even more tens and hundreds of thousands of jobs created in this province.

B. Simpson: Mr. Premier, there's a reason why over 80 percent of British Columbians reject this tax and reject this government's rationalization of the tax, and the Minister of Finance is proving it every time he stands up today. Here's the logic: $1.9 billion taken off the backs of businesses, supposedly revenue-neutral. But somehow that $1.9 billion isn't going to be a burden on consumers. Every time the minister stands up, he says it's not a burden on consumers.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

B. Simpson: The minister said today that everything is going to be less. Stuff is going to be less after the implementation. Well, the Quesnel and District Chamber of Commerce is advocating to their members that they pay their membership fee in advance of April 30 so that they avoid an increase in their membership fees on May 1. If everything is going to be cheaper post–May 1, why is everybody going to such great lengths to avoid paying the HST? If it's cheaper, why aren't they putting up billboards saying: "Pay later"?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. C. Hansen: I think it demonstrates how little that member understands about a value-added tax, because all of the small businesses that belong to that chamber of commerce basically can get a full input tax credit for all of the HST that they pay. But I will put our tax policy up against the tax policy of the NDP government of the 1990s any day. Mr. Speaker, I'll tell you how….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. C. Hansen: I can tell you how the public voted on the NDP tax policy of the 1990s. They voted with their feet, and 50,000 people left this province to go find work in other provinces in Canada.

We hear the member for Cariboo North talking about the need for government to take action to support the forest sector. Well, what the forest sector is telling us is that the single biggest thing that we can do is the harmonized sales tax, which will result in $140 million of costs being removed from the forest sector. That means more jobs for forest workers and forest families in British Columbia.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

The member has a supplemental.

B. Simpson: In 2009, if this government had been straightforward with the people of British Columbia, then the people of British Columbia would have had the opportunity to vote on this government's real tax policy, which they weren't allowed to do. Again, the minister can rationalize….

[1420]

[ Page 4906 ]

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat for a second.

Continue, Member.

B. Simpson: Again, the minister can rationalize all he wants and suggest that people don't know what they're talking about, but I'll tell you this: consumers know exactly what they're talking about. They're not getting input tax credits. They're not getting the benefits. The burden is shifting onto their backs, and that's why they're rebelling.

My question is to the Premier. The voice is loud and clear. The people of British Columbia are telling this government, every member on that side, that they don't want this tax. The avoidance of this tax, as demonstrated by the Quesnel and District Chamber of Commerce and others, is another clear signal that the people of British Columbia are rejecting this tax.

Will the Premier do the right thing and not implement this tax, and certainly not implement it on the backs of British Columbians two months in advance of it coming into existence?

Hon. C. Hansen: I didn't say that the public didn't know what they were talking about; I said that the member didn't know what he was talking about.

I think we've all had the benefit of some great conversations with representatives of the B.C. Real Estate Association and some very good material that they provided to members. If the member hasn't already received one, I'm sure he will. It actually shows that real estate prices in British Columbia for homes up to $550,000 will in fact come down. So the consumers do get the benefit of the input tax credits in the form of lower prices.

M. Mungall: In my constituency Whitewater Ski Resort is posting an advertisement that says that the HST comes into effect July 1, but that season's passes will only be HST-exempt if purchased before April 30. The HST will make it harder for resorts like Whitewater to compete. Passes, food at the resort, ski school — all of this is going to go up by 7 percent, and they're concerned that this is just enough to put them over the edge of affordability for B.C. families.

To the Minister of Finance: why is he making families and businesses struggle two months earlier than July 1, and why is he hurting the tourism industry in my constituency?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat for a second.

There seem to be a number of other members that want to ask questions, so we'll just wait till they're finished.

Continue, Minister.

Hon. C. Hansen: As a result of the shift to the harmonized sales tax, we will in fact see more jobs in British Columbia. We will see employers that will be able to afford more pay raises in British Columbia. There will be more job security. The member can actually reassure her constituents that when they've got jobs and they've got more paycheques coming in, they will actually be able to afford to go skiing.

IMPACT OF HARMONIZED SALES TAX

ON ARTS AND CULTURE

S. Chandra Herbert: Arts and culture organizations have already suffered a huge blow because of this government's cuts to investments. Now starting this Saturday, the B.C. Liberals are putting a tax on arts and culture with the HST, making it so that fewer can afford to purchase tickets to the local community play, the gallery, a concert, a festival.

To the Minister of Finance: we've heard of the no-fun city in Vancouver. Why are the B.C. Liberals so dedicated to making our province a no-fun province with the HST?

[1425]

Hon. C. Hansen: If you look around the world, 130 countries around the world have adopted a value-added-tax system like the HST. You can actually just take a look at London. I know the member has had the opportunity to visit London and enjoy some of the tremendous arts and culture that they have there. Well, guess what. They have a value-added tax, and it has in no way stifled the arts community in those countries that have a value-added tax.

If any British Columbian goes out a week from now and buys a ticket for a theatre performance next week or the week after, they will not pay any HST. If they buy a ticket for a performance that's going to take place after July 1, then they will be paying HST on that. But there is no HST charged on any product that is delivered prior to June 30, 2010.

IMPACT OF HARMONIZED SALES TAX

ON MEMBERSHIP COSTS

R. Chouhan: Constituents of mine with a Costco membership have already received renewal notices with HST on the bill and the 7 percent increase in fees factored in. These are hard-working families trying to save money, and they're getting hit with a tax increase two months before the HST implementation date of July 1.

My question is to the Minister of Finance. Why is he in such a rush to make these B.C. families struggle more?

Hon. C. Hansen: B.C. families struggle when they can't find jobs. The HST is the single biggest thing this

[ Page 4907 ]

government can do to make sure we stimulate the economy and create jobs.

I can tell this member that there will be more jobs in his constituency as a direct result of the harmonized sales tax. There will be more jobs in every single corner of this province as a direct result of our eliminating the provincial sales tax with the adoption of the HST.

IMPACT OF HARMONIZED SALES TAX

ON FAMILIES

M. Farnworth: The biggest thing that this government could have done for the province was to have told the truth before the last election. The former Finance Minister got it right. She said this is a tax shift from business to consumers, and consumers are mad because they know they're going to be paying a lot more. That is the truth.

The minister can quote who he likes, but I'll put my faith in leading families in this province who have sat down, done the numbers and know it's going to cost them more to take their kids to a hockey game, to buy a bike for their kids, to go on vacation with their kids, on so many things that this government won't enumerate.

So will the minister just for once stand up and tell British Columbians what they already know — that this cost is going to cost them more as of May 1, let alone July 1?

Hon. C. Hansen: We know from the great work of Jack Mintz that this adoption of a harmonized sales tax is the….

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister.

Hon. C. Hansen: We know from the great work that Jack Mintz did in analyzing the effect of the HST on B.C. that it will create literally 113,000 net new jobs over the coming ten years.

[1430]

We had the benefit of an analysis that was done by SFU economist Jon Kesselman just last week, and in there it actually points out that low-income families in British Columbia will in fact be if not better off, at least no worse off as a result of the harmonized sales tax.

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

M. Farnworth: We know from the hard work done by families in British Columbia who have done the math that the HST is going to hurt them, because we hear about it every single day.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Interjection.

Mr. Speaker: Minister.

Continue, Member.

M. Farnworth: The bottom line is clear. B.C. families have done the math, and they know the HST is not for them. That's why over 85 percent have said "No thanks" to this government.

My question to the minister is clear. Will he recognize that the former Finance Minister is right, that B.C. families are right, and withdraw the HST?

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. C. Hansen: I can tell you what B.C. families want in northern British Columbia. They want jobs. They want job security. This delivers that. What B.C. families on Vancouver Island want and what B.C. families in the Interior want and what B.C. families in greater Vancouver want is jobs, and that is exactly what the HST delivers.

[End of question period.]

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members.

Statements

RELEASE OF CHILDREN AND YOUTH

COMMITTEE INFORMATION

M. Karagianis: The Child and Youth Committee is convening a poverty forum. In advance of that, the Clerk's office has been compiling a reading list for us. I have inadvertently given that to the media before the committee has had a chance to read that reading list, and for that I apologize to committee members.

Tabling Documents

Hon. P. Bell: I rise to table the 2009 annual report for the Forest Appeals Commission.

D. Thorne: Mr. Speaker, I might be premature. I'm speaking on Bill 9, on the motion.

Mr. Speaker: No, we're not there yet.

D. Thorne: That's what I thought.

[ Page 4908 ]

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. de Jong: I want the member for Coquitlam-Maillardville to pay attention. Get ready to go.

In Committee A, I call Committee of Supply — for the information of members, the estimates of the Ministry of Advanced Education — and, in this chamber, continued second reading debate on Bill 9.

Second Reading of Bills

Bill 9 — Consumption Tax Rebate

and Transition Act

(continued)

[1435]

On the amendment (continued).

J. McIntyre: Mr. Speaker, I had reserved my right to continue my remarks from before lunch, and I would actually like to start where I left off. It did appear that I struck a nerve with opposition members, a big nerve as it appeared. Basically, I was exposing them and calling out the NDP for their defence of the PST, which has been recognized as antiquated. It's an embedded tax. It's been recognized as the single biggest impediment to economic growth and increased productivity in this province.

The NDP has not been telling the whole story to the public. They've clearly not been telling the whole story, because they're not ever talking about: "Why PST?" Nobody is saying why they're defending PST. We haven't heard a word about their defence, nothing at all. They've never said why B.C. should remain, along with P.E.I., Saskatchewan and Manitoba, on an embedded, cascading tax. It's actually been a detriment to economic growth.

[L. Reid in the chair.]

The member for Coquitlam-Maillardville herself, while she was heckling this morning, revealed a lack of understanding of the basic economic fundamentals. She didn't understand that a competitive tax regime, oh my gosh, equals investment and equals jobs — jobs, just as our Finance Minister was talking about in question period today. British Columbians want jobs. HST is a big step for that.

The B.C. Liberals have chosen to stimulate the economy to help us get out of this great recession with a range of tax breaks all the way from businesses down to individuals. We are choosing to tax at the point of consumption. Economists recognize that is a healthier, better way.

The NDP is just continuing to show political opportunism at its best. They're trying to confuse the public. They're trying to spread misinformation. Even their questions in question period today showed a fundamental lack of understanding about the transition period. They acted like it was a big surprise that all of a sudden — woo! — it's May 1.

Well, read the bill. Do your homework. Read the research, and you'll understand what that's about.

We also had the member for Burnaby–Deer Lake early this morning in, I thought, a very interesting twist of events. She was defending the interests of the wealthier end of the scale, new-home buyers. She was also dismissing the works of renowned and respected economists — she who purports to be an expert in social policy and in public policy, dismissing the works of these economists.

She called the work of Dr. Jack Mintz of the University of Calgary "shoddy." Shoddy — that's what the NDP calls work of economists. Jon Kesselman, who is the chair at SFU in public policy, in her home community of Burnaby…. I wonder what her SFU students think about Jon Kesselman.

Interestingly, we also have a quote from the member for Cowichan Valley during his discussion. He says: "The reality is, in listening to the Liberal speeches, that we hear the same old tired and failed trickle-down economics. It's the same kind of philosophy that has failed North American business. We've had a crash…."

Interjections.

J. McIntyre: No, listen. Listen to this.

"We've had a crash because people believed in all of these economists and all these modern-day witch doctors that somehow if you just give away enough money to the big corporations, they're going to take care of us."

Well, that is the level of public discourse that the NDP would like us to engage in by deferring this bill. They want to defer it. They don't want to bring it in. That's the kind of healthy public discourse, where people will get to know and understand what this tax policy is about, when they call economists "witch doctors." Well, that's really healthy and really respectful to the debate that we're trying to have here.

If that's what the member for Burnaby–Deer Lake wanted when she was trying to encourage further discussion, then I think the public would be shocked if they understood the level of understanding of the opposition here and what we're actually trying to do. The NDP, day after day, reveals a fundamental lack of respect and understanding of tax policy.

Interjections.

J. McIntyre: We have been telling. We ran on a campaign to make tough economic decisions for tough economic times, and that's exactly what we're doing.

[1440]

[ Page 4909 ]

Let me continue. We have the member for Coquitlam-Maillardville and the other NDP members wanting to refer Bill 9 to the Finance Committee, which they sat on, where they already heard from the public, who wanted to rid the province of PST. That was the recommendation. It's been the recommendation for several series of Finance hearings in the fall, because they heard from the public, which wanted to get rid of an embedded, cascading, antiquated tax.

Even the Finance Committee member from Juan de Fuca was very excited by the prospect of harmonization because it would support his spouse's small business to avoid the waste of time and effort of dealing with two bureaucracies. He was quoted in Hansard as being supportive of it. But now political opportunism raises its ugly head, and we hear from the other side of the House that all of a sudden it's not such a good thing.

I just think that, clearly, this NDP amendment to defer this at second reading is nothing but a delay tactic. They are playing out the clock so clearly in their bid, in effect, to support the PST — right? They want to talk about it, yet they are not talking about why we should have PST. I have not heard one member of the opposition, I don't think, in question period or in their speeches telling British Columbians why we should retain the PST. I am not hearing anything about that.

They are not telling British Columbians the whole story, because by not supporting Bill 9 and by wanting to defer it and send it back, they're not saying that that means we're going to retain PST. They're not. They're not telling people, and they're not giving anybody a cogent reason why we should have PST. Instead, they're out there fomenting anger, causing confusion, misinformation and making it more difficult for the public to understand what is a difficult and complex tax issue.

Now, with the few minutes remaining left to me, I'd like to talk a little bit about our income tax policies, as I started to earlier today, because we have spent a lot of time making sure that British Columbians have more money in their pockets. Now that we've been in office for nearly a decade, the changes are staggering.

Those who made about $20,000 — sort of on the lower end of the scale — back in 2001 when we took office, are now saving nearly a thousand dollars in income taxes. That is a lot at that scale. You take somebody at the $60,000 level, and they're now saving $2,400 on their income taxes. When you get up even higher to $100,000, they're saving over $5,600 in income taxes — money that they can choose to use on things that they may in fact have to pay a sales tax on, but they get the choice because we have decided to leave money in people's pockets.

We've made very, very significant progress on that front. That gets lost in this debate. You don't hear the NDP ever telling people that in fact, they've got a lot more money in their pocket to buy the very things out there. No, we don't hear about that. I think it's just very clear that people today are a lot better off than they are under the NDP's tax-and-spend policies.

The public is asking: why HST? Why now? Although the idea of this harmonized sales tax has been around for years and, as I've said, has even been supported by the all-party Finance Committee, it's only this past year that the federal government finally made it attractive and flexible.

As I pointed out this morning, we now had the flexibility after the election. We learned that we could bring it in at 12 percent, which is what our combined GST and PST is already, and we decided that this was the time. With the economy in the severe downturn, this was a much better time.

These incentives now allow B.C. to set its own tax rate. It's the lowest in Canada at 12 percent. It also allowed us to provide that series of point-of-sale rebates and other measures to offset the impact, including for those at the lower end of the income scale. And the federal government has already started to provide British Columbia with part of the $1.6 billion in transition funding.

With Ontario introducing the HST on this July 1, it became very apparent, first of all, that it was going to be a matter of when we introduced it, not if. But it was very, very important, especially at this time of economic recovery, that we didn't want to lag Ontario. We did not want to have the investment dollars that were coming into Canada and looking around about where to go funnelled into Ontario, when of course we have such a wonderful province here and a competitive tax regime that we are trying to attract business with and create the jobs I was talking about.

As of July 1 there will be no old-style PST, the type the NDP is supporting with their amendment to defer the bill to a committee. There will be no old-style PST anywhere, except for Saskatchewan, Manitoba and P.E.I.

[1445]

I believe this is the right step to take for B.C.'s economy even now, but particularly in the longer term. It will encourage a competitive business climate here in the province and make our exports more competitive abroad, and it will significantly reduce administrative costs and the compliance burden on businesses and government. When you remove administrative duplications — just as the spouse of the member for Juan de Fuca has recognized in her small business — it will reduce costs for businesses, time and effort, to the tune of what we now estimate to be about $150 million annually.

We're also going to be saving $30 million in administrative costs, because the federal government will be administering the HST at no cost to our province. Immediately, that sends $30 million right to the general revenue, where we can spend on health care and education and, of course, social assistance. So there are many, many long-term benefits.

I'll go back to one of the quotes from Dr. Jack Mintz, too, because in his quote — and I think this is very, very

[ Page 4910 ]

important when he talks about HST being a change for the better for this province — he says: "Without a doubt, British Columbia's sales tax harmonization will be a game changer" — that's a game changer — "promoting capital investment in the province and providing an opportunity for the private sector to create jobs and pay higher wages to workers." It increases and enhances productivity.

I was at a conference, the 2020 Outlook conference, last Friday with our former Finance Minister, Carole Taylor, and Jock Finlayson from the B.C. Business Council, hosting hundreds of people who are involved in the business community. They talked, unfortunately, about Canada lagging in productivity — and also B.C. in particular. It was said loud and clear on the panel that HST is a huge step to increasing that productivity, and that's why we're doing this. It is for the benefit of British Columbians and for job creation.

As I've said, this embedded PST has been recognized by all sorts of experts as the biggest single impediment to economic growth and productivity in this province. It just shows that the NDP's opposition to this, and this amendment to try and defer it and not pass this bill in this session, is just going to further delay a return to economic prosperity in this province. They are actually working against the interests of British Columbians by opposing this. I don't think the public totally understands and appreciates that, because again, they're not talking about why we should have an embedded PST.

This HST is going to save millions of dollars across this province, and it will make the difference, actually, between some businesses even staying open or not in this time of economic recession. Every time one of these businesses decides to stay open, it's providing jobs and incomes for British Columbia families.

It's been said before, as I said in my earlier comments to Bill 9, that there are dozens of associations representing hundreds and thousands of British Columbians who are all supporting this tax measure and no doubt asking us not to defer, the way the NDP is.

D. Thorne: It's my pleasure today to stand in this House to support the motion to refer Bill 9 to committee for further consideration. I feel that this motion was not only timely, but it was the right thing to do.

However, my side of the House, the official opposition, has made that point now clearly, articulately, many times without any support from the government, from the other side of the House. Now in the dying hours of democratic debate here in this Legislature, I feel that I'm one of the fortunate people to be able to get up and say a few more words about Bill 9 and about this whole issue before debate ends this afternoon.

[1450]

Before I move on, I have to say, as I think my House Leader said yesterday, that I think it's outrageous that a democratic debate is being stifled, being stopped this afternoon and that this bill, Bill 9, is going to be rammed through by this government in the next several days in the face of overwhelming, I think — anecdotal, no doubt, but overwhelming — opposition by the people of British Columbia to this bill.

Last night we saw a motion passed in this House. I'm just going to read a little bit of it: "…all proceedings relating to the second reading of Bill (No. 9) intituled Consumption Tax Rebate and Transition Act shall be completed and disposed of on or before April 27th, 2010 at 6 p.m. At 5:45 p.m. on the date mentioned, the Speaker shall forthwith put all necessary questions for the completion of second reading stage of the said bill without amendment or debate." Outrageous — in the face of the kind of opposition that we are seeing in every town and city across this province of every size.

The government can ignore this. They can boo the official opposition. They can ignore us, but they should not ignore the people of British Columbia, the people who vote in this province. It's outrageous.

Nevertheless, unfortunately, this side of the House does not have as many votes, and we could do nothing about the outrageous behaviour of our government. It's a democratically voted government that sits on the other side of the House — perhaps, as many have said, a government that misled the voters in the last election. Perhaps had they brought forward — I have to be careful how I phrase this — more information to the voters, it might be a different story. But that didn't happen.

The rest is history, and tonight at 5:45 we will be finished with the democratic debate. We'll move into, I'm assuming, third reading where we'll look clause by clause at this bill, and I would think some other relevant points will be raised by the official opposition. But wide-ranging debate like we've been having for the past few weeks will be over, and the people of British Columbia — not the official opposition — will be stifled once again in this place.

Now that I've made my feelings just a little bit clear on that point, I'm going to move on to some more general comments about the HST and what I'm hearing from my constituents. I like to tell the people in this House, the people that are listening on television and my own constituents who are interested in my feelings and what other constituents are saying….

Madam Speaker, I'd like to just tell you that over the weekend one of my very youngest constituents asked me what the HST stands for, commenting that it sounds like the sound a snake might make. Now, I'm not going to go there. I know the rules in this House, and I'm not going to make those HST sounds. But I think we can all do it and imagine, and I do think my young friend brought up an interesting point.

We know that the harmonized sales tax is masquerading in this House as the Consumption Tax Rebate and

[ Page 4911 ]

Transition Act, but perhaps it would be more accurate to call it by some other names. Let's see. How about the "horribly stupid" tax? The "height of sneaky" tax? There is no shortage of "h" words that describe this tax. "Heinous," "ham-handed," "half-baked," "hellish" and even "hanky-panky" seem appropriate. Moving on to "s" words, we have another selection. How about "sabotage," "scandalous," "scallawag," "sellout" and "shabby"?

Deputy Speaker: Member, are you speaking to the amendment? If not, please do so.

D. Thorne: Yes, I am. I'm speaking to the motion to refer to committee for further debate. Mix and match with "h" words. Add a "t" word or two — how about "tacky" or "tarnished" to start with — and you have an accurate definition of the HST.

[1455]

Who opposes the HST? Pretty much everyone, I'm finding. The latest group to come out in opposition is the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs, who say it is a regressive tax that will greatly increase the financial burden of First Nation families who are living in poverty, including the working poor.

The chiefs said in a letter to all MLAs, both sides of the House, that recent research highlights that income inequality between aboriginal peoples and the rest of Canadians is stubbornly high. In 2006 the median income for aboriginal peoples was $18,961 — 30 percent lower than the $27,097 median income for the rest of Canadians. The majority of First Nation families in B.C. live off reserve and are subject to full taxation.

Clearly, the proposed HST is of great importance to B.C. First Nations, who already experience a highly disproportionate level of poverty. The chiefs say they have repeatedly contacted both the federal and provincial Ministers of Finance to address impacts and lack of any substantial consultation process of the proposed HST on First Nation families and communities. To their great frustration, neither level of government has agreed to meet or speak with the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs or any other First Nations group, despite the pressing and serious nature of this issue and the government's legal duty to consult.

The chiefs point out that Canada has recently announced its support for the United Nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples and that Canada must be called upon to uphold the true spirit and intent of this declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples, which highlights the need to obtain free, prior and informed consent of indigenous peoples when issues such as the HST affect their rights.

Specifically,

article 19 affirms that: "States shall consult and cooperate in good faith with the indigenous peoples concerned through their own representative institutions in order to obtain their free, prior and informed consent before adopting and implementing legislative or administrative measures that may affect them."

As one would assume, the HST is really going to affect them. The letter ends with the plea to all MLAs to please vote against the proposed HST because the content and implementation process of this proposed tax will not improve the economic reality for many of the First Nation families in British Columbia.

Let's look at some of the other groups in B.C. that are opposed to the HST. The Restaurant and Foodservices Association of B.C. and of Canada calls the HST "a 7 percent meal tax." They say that it will cost the industry $750 million each year in lost sales, or nearly $50,000 per restaurant in British Columbia. This translates into jobs, in spite of what the government has been saying on the other side of the House, as about 7 percent of B.C.'s workforce works in the food industry.

We also have the Council of Tourism Associations of B.C., who say that the HST will cost up to 10,000 tourism-related jobs. It will also lower tourism industry revenue by up to $545 million per year and reduce government tax revenues for all three levels of government by up to $157 million. Many people have said that those are very, very conservative estimates, which is very frightening.

Then we have the Federation of Community Social Services of B.C., a group that I know well, having been a full-time worker in community social service agencies prior to my becoming a city councillor in 1996 in Coquitlam. This group says that the HST will cost non-profit social service agencies, even though they have been offered a rebate level of 57 percent. If it is not increased to at least 75 percent, the tax will not be fiscally neutral. Along with the other cuts that have come recently in the last year or so to this sector from this government, it could be the death knell for many, many smaller community social service agencies.

[1500]

We all know that they do the work of government. They do it on a shoestring, and they do it very, very well. This is really going to be heartbreaking for communities across this province if they are so affected.

Yesterday we had a visitation, both sides of the House, by the B.C. Real Estate Association, which says that the HST will increase the cost of new homes and all professional services such as appraisals, inspections and realtor commissions. We were all given the same information, so I'm assuming I'm speaking to the initiated here, that everybody knows the facts about how this HST is going to affect the new-home sector.

There have been many, many stories in the home sections of our daily newspapers over the last few months about developers who are shelving huge construction projects that they were intending to start this year or early next year. They are putting them on the shelf because they are afraid that they're going to be stuck with

[ Page 4912 ]

inventory that may sit there for a long, long time, and heaven only knows what will happen to it in the end.

They're not going to take the chance. They're not going to build the houses. They're not going to build the subdivisions. They're going to, well, do other things. I don't know what they're going to do because they don't talk about that, but they're not going to be building houses. They're not going to be paying for permits. Moneys will be down municipally from lower permit dollars, as will PST money to the government. So all levels of government, once again, will suffer because of the new homes.

If somebody has the opportunity to buy a house, I would think that it's not rocket science to assume that if they can buy a used house, an older house, they will do so and save the HST dollars, which might put many, many first-time buyers — young families and seniors — over the top in terms of their ability to get a mortgage or get financing.

We're looking at 12 percent as opposed to 5 percent, a 7 percent increase, with rebates only up to $525,000, which — somebody said earlier in the House — might affect somebody who is buying a condominium in British Columbia. They might not suffer the consequences, but anybody buying a single-family new home, for instance, in Coquitlam in the Burke Mountain area…. When it's built out, it will be probably bigger than the city of Port Moody, probably the first- or second-largest housing development in the history British Columbia. The only one I can think of that even compares in size would be British Properties. You're going to see huge changes in Burke Mountain.

Westbuild and other big developers like that, which I worked with for years when I was on city council, are terrified of what's going to happen because of the HST. It's really going to affect everybody in the province when it filters down.

Then we have the Rental Owners and Managers Association of B.C., which says that the HST will increase costs by up to 3 percent or $300 per rental per year in operating rental buildings. We all know who's ultimately going to pay that cost. It'll be the tenants, who can little afford it and who already suffer from a lack of affordable rental housing.

If we think about subsidized housing for the working poor or even for the middle class, we have thousands and thousands of families waiting for subsidized housing on the waiting list at B.C. Housing, which we all know and which I know very well from sitting on the board of directors at the GVRD, now known as Metro Vancouver.

We have municipal governments who are also very, very nervous about the HST, because everything from recreation programs to cemeteries will increase in cost. Municipalities are working hard to keep their budgets under control and avoid extreme tax hikes.

Shortly after I made my first comments on the HST in this House, which was at the very beginning of the debate, I've actually had many e-mails, more than I would have expected, on the speech. I had one from a woman called Sandra who is in the rental property business. I guess she would know better than a lot of us who are not in that business. She says:

"Thank you. Great speech. I'm one of your quoted constituents, and I hope that what I had to say made a difference. Also, where this is going will make a huge difference to the rental property business, of which I am one.

[1505]

"I have been watching the evening news over the past few nights, and rental property owners are speaking out about what this new HST is going to cost all of us for property improvements, etc. They are now adding to the incidence of slum landlords and poor quality rental properties, perhaps even dangerous rental properties, because owners will not be able to afford the improvements. They will put them off or do them in the long range."

I imagine she means in the future. So they won't do them this year or next year. They'll do them the year after that, making for dangerous rental accommodation.

That's from Sandra, who actually owns a property that she rents out, and she's very, very worried. Those are some of the groups.

I wanted to go over some of the changes, some of the costs that consumers will be taxed each year because of the 12 percent HST. Before I read those out, I wanted to say that on the government website it's very interesting that there's a huge list of all the things that won't have the HST, like groceries, for instance — real groceries, not processed foods, right? There are four items that are stated as having the HST applied: cars, clothing, furniture and, of all things, haircuts. Those are the four examples that are given for the products and services that will see the HST added to their cost when they're sold.

I would like to suggest that it might be a good idea to have as fulsome a list of items that will be subject to the HST as the opposite. I just think it would be very helpful to the general public, who are trying very hard to figure their budgets out for the next year. Most of them, a lot of them, unlike the members of this House, who are very well paid, have to make up a budget for the next year, unlike probably most of us.

According to the documents that I have sought out, these are the kinds of things that consumers will be taxed on that I would like to see on the website, clearly stated for the general public, and this would be a generalized figure for the province.

At least $55 million more will be paid by the consumer for school supplies, $82 million more for basic telephone and cable service, some portion of $63 million more for newspapers and magazines, $8 million more for bicycles, $5 million more for hybrid electric passenger vehicles, $23 million more for energy-efficient appliances and building materials, $11 million more for conventional fuel-efficient vehicles and some portion of $991 million for food. While basic groceries will still be exempt, restaurant meals and prepared foods, as I mentioned earlier — like candy, coffee and deli food — will not be exempt.

[ Page 4913 ]

The bottom line for individuals and families across this province is that they will pay more. Costs will go up, but wages will remain the same. We're not even going to talk about jobs that might be lost, for instance, in the restaurant business. The HST does indeed transfer $1.9 billion in taxes paid now by big business onto the backs of consumers and ordinary working people. I think of my own children when I say that phrase.

Throughout B.C. we are all hearing from residents who are unhappy with this tax grab, both sides of the House. Petitions are brought in by members on both sides of the House almost daily, signed by hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of people that are unhappy with the HST.

The member across the way laughs. I'm glad she thinks it's funny. My children don't think it's very funny, because they can't afford 12 percent added onto anything. They can hardly afford groceries as it is.

It's a good thing I'll die probably in the next few years and leave them some money, because with the HST added onto their barely hardscrabble life as it is, they're going to need it. They're going to need me to leave them some money, if there's anything left after I pay the harmonized sales tax on my funeral costs. Of course, I'm being facetious now, because we all know we're well paid in this chamber.

[1510]

I'm going to continue on until you stop me, Madam Speaker. I'm going to keep reading all of the quotes in the newspaper articles and all of the things that the general public are saying — people in my riding, people all across British Columbia. You know, I don't want to give my opinion. Who cares what I think?

Interjection.

D. Thorne: The member for Juan de Fuca cares what I think, but most people have never cared what I think. The member for Nanaimo cares what I think.

You know, it's the single mothers and the handicapped people and the people across B.C. that are so upset.

The member for Juan de Fuca is basically telling me to snap it up. Other people want to give their opinion also, which probably none of us really care about. But let's hear from some of the people in British Columbia. We do care about them because they vote for us. We have jobs because of these people, or we don't have jobs because of these people. So I think they're important.

This is from Art Richards from 100 Mile House, who says — this is somebody who makes up a budget, I'll bet you: "According to my monthly bills for the last 12 months, my electricity, phone and TV will cost me over $175 more under the HST. If not for heating as much as possible with wood" — something none of us in the city are allowed to do anymore, I might add — "my electric heat would drive that number well over $200." That's pretty stunning when you think about it.

I have a couple of letters that I just in the last couple of days cut out of the Vancouver Sun . These are people from West Vancouver and North Vancouver who have very strong feelings about the HST. Olwen Harris from North Vancouver says: "I am one of the 82 percent" of British Columbians who apparently don't understand the HST. "This is what the HST will mean to me. I will be paying about $80 a month more in tax for fixed expenses and discretionary spending combined, for an approximate total of $960 per annum. This amount is what economist Jon Kesselman calls slightly higher living costs."

I guess Olwen Harris from North Vancouver feels it's a little more than a slight cost. "Businesses will save 'an unnecessary $150 million of tax compliance costs every year.' As well, the 'embedded taxes will disappear through rebates to businesses for the taxes they pay on their inputs.' I now know that my $960 will be going toward covering what businesses will be released from." It sounds to me like Olwen Harris understands very well what the HST means to the people of British Columbia.

Mr. Anand from West Vancouver says: "I am amazed that our financial pundits are again pontificating on the virtues of the HST. Most of these so-called experts were at the helm of our world economy when it crashed and burned, so why should we believe their nonsense economic theories now?" I like that one. "Further…."

Interjection.

D. Thorne: And yes, my friend back here likes it as well. It's something we actually haven't talked about much in this House, the day that the world economy kind of crashed and burned, and the economists and all the people who said: "Lower taxes, and everyone will survive. Do this; do that. All the big companies will put all the money back into providing jobs, and everything will be wonderful if we lower taxes."

Well, we certainly know that didn't work in British Columbia in the last eight or nine years. We've lowered taxes, and have the companies reinvested the money in B.C.? Have we seen the unemployment rate climb in British Columbia? If you ask me, the only things that have grown in British Columbia are the unemployment lines and the food bank lines. Let's not forget the food bank lines.

Madam Speaker, I digress. Let's go back to hearing what people in B.C. think of the HST, before you shut me off.

Deputy Speaker: As long as you are speaking to the amendment.

D. Thorne: I am speaking to the amendment, because I believe in democracy. I believe that we should be allowed a continued debate. I believe that this issue should

[ Page 4914 ]

have been sent to a committee to travel across British Columbia and hear from these people in person. Then I wouldn't have to be standing up here bending everybody's ear all the time reading it out. We would have heard it firsthand from the people in B.C.

[1515]

School district secretary-treasurer Mark Lee said this in the newspaper in Abbotsford: "Costs are definitely going to go up…we've got different stories about what would be subject to the tax. It's not like our budgets will go up to allow for these costs. We have to absorb it through existing…grants, and to the best of my knowledge, these will remain flat in the next couple of years."

Being one of two Education critics right now in this House, I've learned a little bit about education and grants and funding and money over the past few months. I would say that Mr. Mark Lee, secretary-treasurer in Abbotsford, is a very optimistic man. He says that grants will remain flat. I personally think grants have gone down, and districts are in much more distress now than they were even a few months ago. I think Mr. Mark Lee is going to be sorry he wasn't more definitive when he did his interview with the Abbotsford Times .

Dr. Braune in 100 Mile House says in the Free Press up there that he's concerned about seniors because they often have very fixed incomes.

The Abbotsford Minor Hockey Association president, Rick Stewart, also said in the newspaper: "We've got some people who are going to be able to cut the cheque and say, 'Here you go. Carry on.' But how many kids is this HST going to push out of our minor hockey association? It's going to affect some families to the point where they will no longer be able to afford hockey."

Alan MacKinnon of Nanaimo — I'm just picking these out at random now — says that the black tax is the HST, and if it's imposed, years of pillaging the public's purse will be happening to profit a few. As George Bernard Shaw said: "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." Interesting. Something worth thinking about.

Then there's Trevor Ritchie of Burnaby, who says that the HST means he'll have to become more reliant on private vehicles since even the price of bicycles will increase because of the HST. "Food costs will increase as the HST affects the price of my groceries, meaning that I will be forced to eat less healthy foods. Both of these changes will have a direct negative impact on my physical health, possibly meaning that I will have to use more health care resources and cost the government even more money."

Fred Ludwig of Burnaby says:"With the HST…7 percent added to restaurant meals, haircuts and so on, will further hamper seniors and the disabled from experiencing the best place on earth."

"Of course the HST will benefit the large corporations," said June Ross to the Nanaimo News Bulletin . "Can someone tell me how it will benefit retired senior citizens?"

I'm being given the windup here, Madam Speaker, so I'm just going to close by saying that I hope the government members can sleep well at night. Some 95 percent of people, and in my riding it's higher — it's 98 percent in my riding; I would bet on that — do not want the HST. Thank you for letting me share the opinions.

R. Cantelon: Let me start by saying I'm speaking to the amendment and wish to rush it forward. But something I'm sure all members of this House do not wish to rush forward is the demise of the member for Coquitlam-Maillardville.

In her remarks she said that she may have to hurry to her final resting place in order that her children may benefit from the effects of her estate because of the imposition of the HST. Certainly, Madam Speaker, that is something both sides of this House fervently hope will not be the case. We wish her long, good health and her presence here in the House for many years to come.

As acrimonious as these debates may from time to time become — interesting and perhaps acrimonious — certainly that is not an effect we wish to have on anybody in this chamber. That is for certain.

This has been a very good and interesting exercise in democracy. I think — in fact, I'm pretty certain — that virtually everything that can be said has been said by most members of this House.

[1520]

I stand here, as this debate winds down towards the late afternoon, at the risk of repeating not just myself but repeating some other comments that have been made in the chamber. Not risk, I dare say, but certainty that some of the comments I make will be repetitious to some ears. Therefore, I don't intend to take up the full slate of my time. I give way during these last, brief few hours to other members who wish to comment on this.

So the opposition wishes to delay this motion, delay this Bill 9 — the abolition, actually, of PST. They wish us to hold off and delay the entire process. Yet faced with the inevitability at this point of the fact that the federal government will indeed be marching forward — as the opposition well knows, as both sides of the House well know — with the new harmonized HST, basically an expanded GST, to incorporate and scoop all the revenue that would have been raised for us on the PST…. So to delay would only cause grief and more unnecessary burden of increased taxation, perhaps, on the taxpayers.

Now, as this came forward…. I think it's been an interesting exercise in democracy. I think the opinions have been expressed quite fully and freely by members on both sides of this House, some passionately and some relying on facts — as they see it, at least. I think it's been a very good exercise.

As we began this debate, I know that the member from Coquitlam, the leader opposite on the other side of the bench, would certainly have been happy to see

[ Page 4915 ]

the HST debate generally begin because there were no other issues. Anybody who stood here and witnessed question period recognized that the members opposite were bereft of significant criticisms of the members on the government side of the benches. They were certainly straining credulity to press for specific issues to challenge the ministers on this side of the House.

The ministers are very capable. I don't only credit them with their competence. Indeed, it is a reflection of a government that has been and continues to be well run. And that's exactly what we ran on. That was our platform, and we stayed by that platform. Our platform was to continue good fiscal responsibility, to continue an economy and a climate that encourages job creation and prosperity for all British Columbians. That's what we're about on this side of the House, and that's what we intend to pursue — those goals.

On the opposite side, we looked to see what the opposition's policies and platforms are, and the answer came. There are none. So it was with great joy…. I know that the House Leader opposite was given during these debates to Shakespearean allusions, to Shakespearean quotes. I thought that was quite entertaining and quite interesting, his approach, and I thought that it lifted the debate somewhat. At least it aspired to a higher standard of language than we're usually accustomed to. I was waiting for a few rhyming couplets, but they never came forward.

He mentioned a few plays, but I would think that in approaching the debate and preparing his side for question period every day, it would have been more like a line from what I think is one of my favourite lines of Shakespeare, "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow creeps in this petty pace from day to day," as he tries to cheer his side to ask piercing questions of this side.

It was, indeed, an onerous task for the member opposite. I know he smiled and delightfully stood up to use these Shakespearean allusions or whatever to try and stimulate and enliven debate. Then, just as he was given this mighty club on which to thrash us, to beat us on the head with, another hand grasped that deadly club. Another hand was on that club. It was like a hand from an old horror movie, because that hand belonged to, of course, none other than Mr. Vander Zalm.

So now they struggled with the club. Who was going to be the victim? Certainly, right now, in the realm of the public mind, it's not certain who it's going to be. Who is going to be bashed with it? At this point I would say that the club has been wrested from the opposition's hands — or maybe not. We'll see.

In any case, I think it's certainly worthy of an extension of the drama that the Opposition House Leader alluded to — that we're seeing a bigger drama unfold outside this chamber than just to do with HST. It's all about control and whose agenda will prevail, and I would say it's very, very much in the air.

Much has been said, and I perhaps will repeat it. I know there are concerns, and there have been concerns expressed on the side opposite about those at lower incomes.

[1525]

I see the member has entered the chamber. I'm sorry you missed my speech wherein I praised your Shakespearean knowledge and gave you some more Shakespearean thoughts to think about as you enter the chamber and we close this debate.

An Hon. Member: What of King Lear?

R. Cantelon: Well, I think King Lear would have been appropriate — for him to have said that as well. I think the member opposite makes another good potential…. Perhaps Richard III, as he approached this session, knowing that he had little ammunition with which to use. "Now is the winter of our discontent" might have been an appropriate phrase to express as he approached his caucus meetings.

M. Farnworth: That sums up your side rather well.

R. Cantelon: Well, we'll see which side gets beaten with the mighty club.

My specific point is towards people who are in the lower income and, I would say, modest income in our society. It's been suggested that they're going to be left hurt — and hurt worse, perhaps — by the imposition, by the introduction of the HST.

Again, I would like to comment that, actually, we're removing the PST and simplifying the collection and the procedures, certainly, widely for businesses. The administration is going to be significantly simpler for them.

Of course, people with the moderate incomes…. I'll suggest a senior couple, perhaps — and I'm taking it from our budget book — with a joint income of $30,000 will receive the B.C. HST credit.

The B.C. HST credit begins for a single person at an income level of $20,000, and they would receive a $230 tax credit and an additional tax credit for each child and/or spouse. So a couple at $25,000 would then begin to receive it, as well, and at $30,000, though it declines, would still receive $130 each, which is a total of a $260 tax credit that they would receive annually.

If you do the math…. I know it may be a challenge. I'll try to do this slowly. It may be a challenge for some members on the opposite side. I'll try to work this through. So $230, basically, if you divide by the current PST tax, dealing with just the incremental portion of it, would buy you a considerable amount of goods and services not covered — approximately $3,700 worth of things that are not taxed currently, things like a golf club membership, things like a haircut.

I would think to say that $3,700 — which is more than 10 percent, about 12 percent of the income of somebody

[ Page 4916 ]

at a $30,000 level — is certainly an ample cushion for people at that income level to be covered against any possible increase that HST might have for them.

I think, again, if you look at all income levels, if you can deal with, for example, a family of four at a $30,000 income, they'll of course receive virtually the full benefit of $762 annually and would be money ahead, frankly, in terms of their disposable income to deal with these pressures.

I think we've certainly been consistently and continually conscious of the burden that moderate income families have.

The member for Coquitlam-Maillardville — I know a very famous town as well, noted for its French Canadian composition, as is the city of Nanaimo, may I add — mentioned about restaurants. Certainly, I had a coffee the other day with one of the more notable restaurateurs in Nanaimo. We go back — I hate to say it — a long way, to the '80s. We remember those days when no one was going to restaurants, and the main reason was there was no economy. That's in sharp contrast to what we have today, where people can afford to go out and the restaurant business is thriving.

However, the members opposite think that they should, in consideration of their current prosperity, increase the wages of all the staff. If you think that the HST might restrict the amount of tips being given to waitresses…. If they think the wages are going up considerably, they might well say: "Well, they're being paid enough. There's no need for me to compensate them."

Our entire approach, though, philosophically and what this is all about…. I think this is a very essential part of how we approach this, and this is why we need to move forward with it as urgently as we can.

We're in the business of creating wealth. We're in the business of creating the platform on which businesses can build, which entrepreneurs can build businesses, create businesses, create employment, create opportunity and absolutely boost the economy by opening up the opportunity for people — young people, particularly.

[1530]

As we know, it has been the case that the forest industry has not done particularly well lately. The members opposite, of course, attribute it to management, ignoring the fact that housing starts in the United States, our primary market for dimensional lumber, have absolutely dropped virtually off a cliff. They would rather attribute it to our management, which I think even a reasonable observer of the situation would say is quite patently incorrect and false.

Our approach has been to put more money in the hands of people. Certainly, people moving to my area, to places like Qualicum Beach, which is a popular retirement area…. It's not uncommon for someone to come with a pension income of $70,000 from a place like Saskatchewan, where they would be paying $7,274 in provincial income tax to the province of Saskatchewan.

They're quite delighted when they complete their tax returns here and find that instead of paying over $7,000, they're paying less than $4,000 — $3,800, to be exact.

We have, in fact, the lowest tax regime in Canada. That's one of the things we plan to do — put the disposable income in the hands of people so that they can make the decision. This has been a conscious direction and philosophy of this government since 1980.

Again, to use that same income figure…. I was using this relative number while I was having an interview with the representatives of the B.C. Teachers Federation, and I pointed out that at that same level in 2001, a $70,000 wage earner would be paying $7,000 in provincial tax. That has now been reduced to $3,800, a 45 percent reduction and nearly a $3,200 tax reduction.

So our philosophy on a personal level is to put money into the hands of people and allow them to make the decisions rather than taking it off the top as they earn it. We apply that, as well, to corporations big and small, and we continue to do that.

We're all about creating wealth, creating opportunity, and that's exactly what this bill is about. As we continue to revive the forest industry as it finds new markets in China, which inevitably we must do, we are going to lift some of the burden and enable them to be more competitive with companies like the Scandinavian companies that basically ate our lunch in the Japanese market, by removing the tax on tax on tax.

If you follow the value chain up the way through the loggers, through the forest mill and right into the man who's buying the truck to go to the log site, we remove the provincial sales tax from all of those and remove the burden of tax and make them extremely more competitive.

Of course, when you go tax on tax on tax, the second iteration is 14 percent. The third iteration is 22 percent. The fourth iteration, as you layer tax on tax on tax that's embedded, goes as high as 30 percent. That's caused us to lack competitiveness in these outside markets, because generally speaking, we still are and remain price-takers to a large extent.

The value of our wonderful woods is valued, but it has, by and large, become a competitive commodity-type market. So this will enable our industry to revive. There certainly is hope.

Vancouver Island continues to be a great green island, continues to be a great place, probably the best place in the world to grow high-quality wood fibre. We're diversifying those products. This will enable the diversification and manufacturing of a wider range of products to be facilitated. It will encourage new investment in machinery, new investment in plants. Certainly, we need new investment in sawmills and new plants.

This will encourage all of that. It will encourage the entrepreneurship that made British Columbia strong. I'm certainly confident that this is the right thing. We

[ Page 4917 ]

ran on creating jobs. This was a tough decision. We were elected to make the tough decisions, and we did.

With that, I would urge that we delay no further — in fact, I will end my comments right now so I won't personally delay this further — and move past the amendment and on to the main motion.

J. Horgan: It's a pleasure to be on my feet again speaking to, in this instance, the amendment to Bill 9, the convoluted-titled bill that will enable the harmonized sales tax here in British Columbia.

Before I start, I want to just acknowledge for those at home who weren't able to read the daily press today…. I'd like to give a little bit of context, if I might, to why I believe this amendment, this reasoned amendment from the member for Port Coquitlam, if I'm not mistaken — always reasonable, the member for Port Coquitlam….

[1535]

I want to set the context, for people watching at home and for people in the gallery who didn't have an opportunity to review the headlines today, for just what the people of B.C., our constituents, are seeing as they wake up to have their morning coffee and healthy bowl of fruit before they run their 10K and hop on their bicycles and commute to their places of work. At least, that's what we do here on southern Vancouver Island.

Interjection.

J. Horgan: I don't know what happens at White Rock. I'm sure I might hear about it later on.

If we picked up the Vancouver Sun today…. I'm sorry. Let me start with the Vancouver Province . One of the headlines in the Vancouver Province today: "Liberals Get Set to Cut off Debate on HST." If you picked up the Province , if you're a regular reader of that august journal, you're faced in the morning with the prospect of an end, a cessation of debate over a tax that was not known to voters prior to the election.

In fact, it wasn't until after the election that we learned about the plan of the Minister of Finance and the member for Vancouver–Point Grey to bring forward this consumption tax. So that's what you see in the Province .

If you picked up the Globe and Mail , often called Canada's national newspaper by those people who live in Toronto, the headline was "Former Finance Minister in Campbell Cabinet Joins Outcry Against HST." In the Times Colonist , "HST Creates Anxious Moments," and of course, in the Vancouver Sun : "Carole Taylor Won't Join Former Colleagues Drinking Hemlock from the HST Punch Bowl."

It's that headline that I'd like to pause and reflect on for a moment, because I certainly don't want to…. I know the former speaker from the Nanaimo region wished good health to all of us in this place, and I wish good health to members on the other side as well. So I want to urge them to resist the hemlock, just as their former colleague Carole Taylor did.

Don't drink the juice, Members. Leave it on the table. What they're promising you may not come to pass. Good things may not flow from that juice that's being provided by the Minister of Finance and the member for Vancouver–Point Grey.

With respect to Carole Taylor's comments, I know they were read into the record yesterday, but I feel it's incumbent upon me to read them again, particularly for the Forests Minister. The former Finance Minister was speaking on national television. She was asked: "What's going on in British Columbia?" Again, most British Columbians — those in the gallery, those watching at home — have probably been seized with the debate over the harmonized sales tax, but Ms. Taylor was asked to educate and advise people in the other parts of Canada, mostly central Canada, on just what was going on.

She said the following: "One of the reasons, of course, that nobody likes new taxes…. This particular tax takes the tax off businesses. It takes $1.8 billion off businesses and puts it on consumers." That's the end of the first quote.

So here we are. We heard the Minister of Finance today go on at some length about how good we were all going to feel after we paid a little bit more and businesses, mostly large — the mining sector, the forest sector, other resource extraction or resource-dependent industries — had PST removed from their activities and had that placed upon the backs of consumers. Somehow there would be peace in our time, and all people would be grateful and thankful for the minister's benevolence.

I go back to the hemlock in the punch bowl. I don't believe that's what I'm hearing in my constituency. I know it's not what other members on this side of the House are hearing. If the members on the government side spent some time in their ridings talking to people other than those who continue to tell them what a great job they're doing — talk to the broader audience — I think they'd find a different story altogether.

In fact, there was a poll out recently; 85 percent of British Columbians are opposed. More people believe Elvis is alive than support the HST. That's a staggering statistic. Now, of that 15 percent, 2 percent strongly support the HST. This is the largest cabinet in B.C. history, but it does not, thank goodness, make up 2 percent of the B.C. population.

We've got the members of cabinet who are obliged to drink the Kool-Aid, to take the hemlock, or they give up their corner offices. Then we've got those who want to have the corner offices further down the back bench, and then those members on the back, back bench in the far corner, who would desperately like to leave that perch and move into one of the corner suites. Well, what do you have to do to get there?

[ Page 4918 ]

Deputy Speaker: Member, are you speaking to the amendment?

J. Horgan: I am speaking to the amendment, hon. Speaker. I'm going to be getting to the value of committees in one moment.

Before we can do that, we have to establish first and foremost just who this 2 percent is that supports the harmonized sales tax. One of the ways we could find out who they are — beyond speculating, beyond the 49 people sitting on that side of the House — is to take this bill, this legislation, and put it to the Finance and Government Services Committee, as suggested by my colleague from Port Coquitlam.

[1540]

I'm a former member of that committee. For three years I travelled around the province, in September, gathering information from British Columbians trying to shape and inform the deliberations of the Minister of Finance. In fact, the Minister of Finance found an opportunity to read back some of my quotations. So for no other reason than to have more of my comments on the record for them to read back to me, I would think they would support this opportunity to take this bill and put it to committee.

I want to talk about the value of committees. Quite often I think back to my time as a staff person here in this Legislature and the remarks of the former Leader of the Opposition, the now member for Vancouver–Point Grey. He talked about revitalizing the committee structure, making it more robust so that all members of the House, both sides — Liberal, New Democrat, independent — could have some positive impact on the activities of the people of British Columbia, as we are led to be expected to do by the people who sent us here.

I've droned on about this subject almost every time I take to my feet, trying to get across to the member for Vancouver–Point Grey, trying to remind him of those days when he had positions that were widely embraced — rather than only supported by 2 percent of the population, supported by a large number of British Columbians. Take pieces of public policy, put them into a bipartisan arena, and see what comes out of it. Invite the public in. Invite the informed public, invite the uninformed public to have a discussion about the policies of import to the people of B.C.

I can't think of a better opportunity for the government to have a mulligan. Hon. Speaker, I don't know if you're a duffer like I am, swinging a golf club now and again. I'm going to have to pay a little bit more to do that, but I'll probably continue to do it. My colleague from Swan Lake and I regularly get together and swing a stick and chase a little white ball around on finely manicured lawns. In that great game of golf, if you stick one into the bush, you can say "mulligan" and pull it out and have another swing.

I'm offering, as my colleague from Port Coquitlam is, a mulligan to the Minister of Forests. This is an opportunity to members on the other side. Let's have a do-over. Remember back in grade 2. Do you remember back in grade 2 when we're on the playing field? Let's have a do-over.

Bob Skelly wanted a do-over, and I think we all support him on that. A little bit of self-deprecating humour for the former member of this place from Port Alberni. Let's have a do-over.

W.A.C. Bennett, who the member from Point Grey was desperately trying to emulate just last week, was renowned for taking a second look. His mentor from Alberta, the former Premier Ralph Klein, also, when he stepped in it, would acknowledge that his foot was covered in something, and he would change his shoe and say: "Let's try this again."

A do-over, a mulligan. This is an opportunity to take Bill 9, put it to committee, as I'm speaking to the amendment. Take this legislation, put it to committee, and let's try again. Let's start over. Let's inform the public what this bill really will do.

To assist in that regard, before the government agrees with the opposition and we move this along, I want to read from a column today by noted Victoria Times Colonist columnist Jack Knox, who I find most refreshing. I know my friend from West Vancouver–Capilano will rush to his clippings to pick up Jack Knox to read the entire submission that he made today, but it's headlined "Four Days to Beat the HST's Early Deadline."

We had some discussion today about that — that we were advised when the HST was foisted upon us without any consultation and without any reference during the election campaign, that it would be implemented, take effect, on July 1. Well, we learned over the past number of days that there is a phase-in period of two months, 60 days. Starting May 1, we're going to have to pay for any services or goods that we're going to get after that date.

Jack Knox had some interesting observations, as he always does. Those in the capital region will know him well. I don't know if there are any in the gallery that would know Jack Knox, but he is a humorist in the Mark Twain vein, and he was making reference to the fact that there's not a lot of information about exactly what impact the harmonized sales tax will have.

We are trying to advise people. I'm going to be reciting a list of services and goods that will be affected shortly. I'll try and keep the member for Columbia River–Revelstoke on his toes. But Jack, in his column today, was trying to shed some light for his readers.

[1545]

It goes as follows:

"If all this makes your head hurt, you're not alone. Even provincial bureaucrats familiar with B.C.'s tax laws must now learn federal rules, too. Take 'Revenue Canada Agency as a second language' classes or whatever.

"Businesses are also befuddled. 'There's not a tonne of information out there,' says chartered accountant Linda…Brougham. The

[ Page 4919 ]

so-called transition rules covering this stuff can be found on line, but they are almost impenetrable."

So we have a noted columnist trying to assist his readers, trying to break through the morass of misinformation that allegedly is coming from this side of the House but is not rebutted with a thorough and comprehensive list on a website that can be accessed by ordinary folks.

That would open up the doors to the reality of this tax, as Carole Taylor has already advised us — a well-respected member of the Vancouver business community. Apparently she goes to Toronto periodically to have events. For what purpose? Who knows. We can only speculate on that. But Carole Taylor has already advised us that it's a shift, an ideological shift from business to consumers.

Now, that's fine. If those on that side of the House want to put their seats on the line in the defence of a waning forest sector and a fledgling mining sector in some parts of British Columbia, bring it on. Call an election. If this is such a great policy and the single most important thing we can do to revitalize the economy, let's go ask the public one more time.

I would advise members to see if they can recruit Elvis to run on their campaign, because more people believe he's alive than support this tax, so a winning strategy. I don't usually give political advice. That's beyond my simple means. But you might want to recruit some candidates that haven't touched the hemlock yet.

I looked through the people who have spoken to the bill, hon. Speaker and, of course, as the Deputy Speaker, you haven't spoken to the bill. The Speaker hasn't spoken to the bill. I noted that the Government House Leader has not offered up his opinion on this matter, and I've also noted that the member for Vancouver–Point Grey, the author of the demise of his colleagues, has not yet brought forth his views on the matter.

He may well have spoken eloquently in caucus. I can only imagine what that speech was like. I can only imagine. But I can't wait. I desperately wait for the opportunity to sit here in this place and hear from the member for Vancouver–Point Grey on why this is the single most important thing we can do for the B.C. economy.

I suggest to him: take the mulligan. My colleague from Port Coquitlam often — in fact, almost always — offers useful suggestions to the government. I can't think of one more useful than bowing your head, admitting you made a mistake, calling up Stephen Harper, telling him to rescind the HST legislation, withdraw this bill, and let's start over again — the best thing they could possibly do.

Now, I know members on this side of the House…. I see some of my colleagues still smiling at the prospect of hearing the caucus discussion about this on the other side. It's not like me to not take the opportunity to have a bit of sport with members on the other side. I'll be brief, and I know the members in the gallery are focusing on the importance of debate. I want to talk a little bit about the consent of those who are governed.

In my studying of parliamentary systems…. In my worklife, in my recreational time I read about other jurisdictions, other systems, how they conduct their affairs in an evolving and ever-changing world. I think that's appropriate for us as citizens and also, most importantly, as legislators.

Without the consent of the public, it's very, very, very difficult to bring forward policy that will have any meaningful impact on the people in this province. In this instance, I cannot think, in my 25 years of observing political and public life, whether it be in Ottawa in the House of Commons, whether it be here, whether it be as an elected representative…. I have never seen an issue galvanize people so much toward hostility rather than support.

I understand the members on the other side. "We're making tough choices," and I guess if that's all you got, you pretty much have to say that — don't you? "I'm being brave. I'm being courageous, because these are tough choices." Well, they may well be tough choices. Not so much, apparently, for the member for Vancouver–Point Grey, although we may well hear about how tough this is for him in the very, very near future.

But for people in our constituencies across British Columbia the words are fairly, fairly simple, and they're ringing, ringing, ringing very loudly across this province: "Rescind this tax. Rip it up. Let's start again."

[1550]

I've had a glance at a spreadsheet that's making the rounds, hon. Speaker — I don't know if it's come to your attention or not — about just how successful this petition initiative under Elections B.C. has been. I don't want to dwell too much on the figures, but it's staggering. I think that's the only way you could describe it. Nine weeks to go, and it's virtually done. It's almost over.

These recall and initiative pieces of legislation were designed in the 1990s. They were deliberately set with very high standards. The recall initiative, for example, was tried several times. I know the member from Cloverdale — I think that was his first job out of high school — was running a total recall campaign somewhere in the Lower Mainland.

An Hon. Member: He's 47.

J. Horgan: He's 47. Is he really? Who knew? It must be all the work that's been done.

Anyway, to get back to the point, these bars were set very high. There were committees, and the legislation was taken to a committee, as we are suggesting with this bill.

The only time I've ever seen anything come remotely close to this was a chappie from Nanaimo who was penning letters under a different name, and he would have

[ Page 4920 ]

most assuredly been recalled had he not resigned. But that was what the bill was intended to do.

Interjection.

J. Horgan: He was a B.C. Liberal.

It was designed for those egregious situations, those situations that were beyond the pale. The situation that that individual found himself in was most assuredly that.

This instance, this harmonized sales tax brought in with deception, with intent to not allow the public to understand what was going on, is another such example. So mulligan is here. Here's your opportunity. Do over. Let's send it to committee.

Why do we send it to committee, hon. Speaker, and why the Finance Committee? As I said to you earlier, I've been a member of that committee three of the five years that I've been here. Some very, very good work gets done there. I don't see at the present time any of my colleagues on the other side that have been on the committee. But relationships are established, bipartisan relationships, so that you can look at issues not from an adversarial perspective, which is the essence of our British parliamentary system, but as colleagues.

What's in the best interests of British Columbians? That, again, is what our constituents expect of us. I know that my colleagues, because we speak freely…. I don't know what happens. I can't imagine what it's like for members on the other side, certainly the member for Comox. My goodness, he must just love going home.

When you go home, your public says to you: "What exactly are you doing down there? We don't want you to proceed in this direction. Can't you work it out?" We're 85 adults sent here, elected by constituents right across British Columbia — north, south, east, west, coastal, interior, mountainous, flat. You name it. We're here representing those geographic areas and the people that live there.

What do they want from us? It's fairly simple. Act like adults. We don't see that during question period, so they tend to associate all of the work we do with the hectoring back and forth at that time. As the member for Vancouver–Point Grey so adeptly put it, as a member of the opposition, in committee real work gets done.

Representatives from both sides of the House can look at controversial issues, can put aside their political flags. They can leave them at the door, and they can meet the public — expert witnesses, ordinary citizens, stakeholders, non-governmental organizations. You name it. They have access to the Finance Committee. They bring forward their ideas. Members deliberate. They think about it. They talk about it.

I know there's a member of the committee over there now. I haven't sat with him, but I'm sure, had we travelled together, we would have developed a relationship and a bond. I would have had a better understanding of his views; he, a better understanding of mine. Most importantly, we would have been able to take what we learned in committee and bring it back to this place. That's where the good work happens. That's where the good work takes place here — not during question period. Not even close.

Interjection.

J. Horgan: My friend from Langara is saying: "Really? Is that right?" Regrettably, her introduction to this place was getting beat over the head with a stick. But there are good things that happen here.

My friend from Port Coquitlam is giving you a great opportunity. Take it. Apparently, we're going to be voting on this very soon. The Government House Leader has advised us that although the opportunity to have fulsome debate here about the substance of the legislation is going to be taken away from legislators, the opportunity still exists for members on that side of the House to recognize a golden opportunity.

[1555]

A teachable moment, I think, is what we're at here. My colleague the former educator from Columbia River–Revelstoke…. If ever there was an opportunity for members on the other side — my friend from West Vancouver–Capilano, a lifetime learner. Take this opportunity. Seize it. Seize it, Member, and join with the opposition to support moving this bill to committee.

I have a couple of other points. I really didn't spend enough time on Carole Taylor's comments — did I? If I could just remind members, those were the good old days. Those were the good old days when the treasury was flush and resource revenues were coming in, in very large volumes. We were able to meet everyone's needs and, of course, make statements and commitments about election promises prior to the election that, sadly, didn't come to pass. Nonetheless, these were the golden days for the B.C. Liberals — that magical moment.

There have been so many deficit budgets from the B.C. Liberals. They don't like to fess up to this, but there were really only four balanced budgets out of nine that they've tabled, and we're projecting two more into the future that are also in deficit. These are the good managers that were headed up by their champion at that time, Carole Taylor. This is what she said about the way the HST was brought forward.

[C. Trevena in the chair.]

It goes as follows. The member for Vancouver-Langara will want to hear what her former seatmate said. "But I think the bigger issue is that just before the election, he promised that they would not — they would not — do the harmonized sales tax and then right after the election decided to do it." Now, that is the nub of the issue.

[ Page 4921 ]

She goes on to say: "There's a feeling of being deceived by the government that people elected, and it's quite brutal. The numbers are very negative. The B.C. Liberals are sure on the losing end of this." Now, that is a prominent citizen, former Finance Minister, former B.C. Liberal, potentially future B.C. Liberal — who knows? That might explain all of her visits to Toronto. That's her view on the matter, and 49 of her former colleagues sit here today having to ignore the common sense of the former member for Langara, the former Finance Minister.

They have to touch the hemlock. They have to drink from the bowl, because that's what the member who has not yet spoken in this chamber on the importance of this bill…. That's the member for Vancouver–Point Grey, who, among the other 15 percent of British Columbians, believes that this is good for B.C. and that Elvis is still alive.

I talked at second reading, prior to the tabling of this amendment, about the impact on families. But I received a very interesting letter, among the many that I receive daily from constituents. This one is from a constituent in Metchosin, one of the more idyllic portions of the riding of Juan de Fuca. I'd like to read into the record some of the suggestions that were made by that constituent. I won't name him. That's not necessary.

It says as follows:

"Hi, Member

"Sorry about the closure that has been enacted by the government. My primary concern with the HST is that it taxes the things governments want us to do, like join a club to get fit, take yoga lessons, send kids to summer camp, all of which are good things for our health and well-being.

"I would appreciate if you would take this and ask the government why they are increasing taxes on things that they want us to do and why things of a sport and health nature couldn't be exempt."

That is, again, the root of the challenge we have with the harmonized sales tax. My friend the Finance Minister yesterday was reading back into the record comments that I had made at a committee meeting, the Finance Committee, abou