Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 39 (35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-39

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLI No. 39-10 a.m., FRIDAY, MARCH 27,1992 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Msnltobe ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS,Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

1752 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, March 27, 1992 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of F. DeVilla, Priscilla Calixto, Linda Quinto and others urging the government to request the federal Minister of Employment and Immigration to fully reinstate the Foreign Domestic Program and that the government be requested to report to the legislature regarding progress in that regard. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offenders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of further co nj ugal or family violence being perpetrated. (Mr. Chomiak) *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Ms. Barrett) I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world; and It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and Programs like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and

1753 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 27, 1992 The decision to terminate the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering restoring the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Mr.

Santos) *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT of the 53 aboriginal languages in Canada, it has been predicted that only three will survive beyond the year 2010 unless action is taken now; and The Abinochi-Z hawayndakozihwin Ojibwa nursery program which began in 1985 has taught children between the ages of three and five the Ojibwa language, culture and history; and The Abinochi preschool language program seeks to promote and strengthen aboriginal languages and has been praised as a model by groups across Canada who have requested its curriculum; and The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry stated that maintaining aboriginal languages is vital to rebuilding the culture lost thro ugh years of colonization; and The provincial minister's working group studying the school recommended that long-term funding be found for the school; and The provincial government recognized the importance of the school in 1991 when it committed $64,000 to the school that year; and The provincial government has chosen in 1992 to not commit any funds to the program this year threatening the Mure of the school, while it is increasing funding to private elite schools by 9 percent after giving them an increase last year of 11 percent.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba consider funding the Abinochi preschool program at a level which will ensure that the school continues to operate. (Mr. Hickes) I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT of the 53 aboriginal languages in Canada, it has been predicted that only three will survive beyond the year 2010 unless action is taken now; and The Abinoch i-Zhawayndakozihwin Ojibwa nursery program which began in 1985 has taught children between the ages of three and five the Ojibwa language, culture and history; and The Abinochi preschool language program seeks to promote and strengthen aboriginal languages and has been praised as a model by groups across Canada who have requested its curriculum; and The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry stated that maintaining aboriginal languages is vital to rebuilding the culture lost through years of colonization; and The provincial minister's working group studying the school recommended that long-term funding be found for the school; and The provincial government recognized the importance of the school in 1991 when it committed $64,000 to the school that year; and The provincial government has chosen in 1992 to not commit any funds to the program this year threatening the Mure of the school, while it is increasing funding to private elite schools by 9 percent after giving them an increase last year of 11 percent.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the government of Manitoba consider funding the Abinochi preschool program at a level which will ensure that the school continues to operate. (Ms. Friesen) TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Annual Report for 1990-91 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship; the Annual

March 27, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1754 Report for 1990 -91 for the Multiculturalism Secretariat; and the Annual Report for 1990-91 for the Women's Directorate. •

(1005) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all members to the gallery, where we have with us this morning from the Elmwood High School 15 English language students. They are under the direction of Shirley Anderson. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). On behalf of all members, I welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Abitibi-Price -Pine Falls Employee-Owned Proposal Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I am sure all members of the House have been following the issue of the financing of the Olympia and York situation, the fact that a company that has owned resources and owns resources in Manitoba, Abitibi-Price, has expanded itself in such a way that they are in a severe cash flow. They have expanded the resource industry over to real estate and into real estate in the United States and now the Canary Wharf in London.

Of course, the financial situation of this company is a serious concern to Manitobans, because Abitibi-Price is in a very crucial state, a very critical state with the ownership issue, with the changing of their plants to Alabama and the possibility of leaving Manitoba with a community-owned operation. I would ask the government: Has the price of the company gone down dramatically, or the operation at Pine Falls, from the $55 million, which all of us agree is outrageous to begin with, from the Reichmanns?

What is the status of the negotiations dealing with the Abitibi-Price operation and the community-owned proposal? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, as the member will know, I have been occupied with a First Ministers' meeting on the economy, and so I cannot speak about events within the last week or so. I do know that there has been continuing dialogue and discussion in a variety of ways with respect to this issue. It has been a matter that has been before the Economic Development Board of Cabinet.

The management-backed, worker-backed buyout has been the primary area in which we have been working, and all of us have been hopeful that through a variety of sources of funding this package could be put together. I do not have any recent briefings on what the change in price might be for the shares and the assets of the company, but I do know thatthose who are attempting to buy the company out remain optimistic that they can put together a package that will allow it to remain in operation in Manitoba. •

(1010) De-Inking Plant Feasibility Study Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the government has commissioned last year feasibility studies on the operation. The government also has a report from the Clean Environment Commission dealing with some possible limitations of the fibre area to the government.

Did the government look at and has it reviewed the feasibility of a de-inking plant for the operation at Pin e Falls to not only deal with the recommendations before it In terms of fibre limitations, but also to deal with the great number of challenges that we have in our environment and the great number of challenges we have in many of our urban centres of landfill sites that are going to be filled up? Has the government looked at the feasibility of a de-inking plant as a possible creative way of dealing with the issue of jobs and the environment which is before the governmenttoday? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): As a matter of fact, from Day One that has been one of the proposals that the government has expressed interest in with respect to that particular plant. We have indicated that if part of the new ow nership and the restructuring of the plant included a de-inking facility, that that would fit in with our objectives from an environmental and recycling side and that we would be very receptive to looking at that as part of a package that did involve some provincial contribution. That remains to be the case, and it certainly is on the table as far as we are concerned. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, we would encourage the government in their feasibility and in the great

1755 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 27, 1992 amount of dollars and jobs that are at stake right now in a very, very serious crisis situation. A further question to the First Minister on the issue of a de-inking plant and the feasibility study and the Clean Environment Commission report that the government has before it: Has the government put the whole issue of a de-inking plant on the table with the ministers responsible for Western Diversification? The whole purpose of Western Diversification, initially stated, was to take western Canada from the old technology to the new technology.

Often we have been somewhat skeptical of some announcements that have seemed to us to be more political than they have been to value-added jobs in the new 1990s and 21st Century in terms of the economy. There have been some good announcements and there have been some questionable announcements. Has the government placed this whole issue before Western Diversification? Does it have support from the lead minister in Manitoba, the federal Minister Epp, and can we see fed era l-provincial negotiations dealing with de-inking and dealing with the Abitib i-Price community-based takeover? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, because of the fact that I have not been the lead minister on this, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) has, I will have to take the precise details of that question under notice. I know that it would be up to the people who are putting forward a proposal to deal with Western Diversification on this matter, and I would have to find out just exactly what discussions have taken place with respect to that. Community Colleges Funding Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I would like to put the questions to the Minister of Education that I tried to put yesterday.

The unemployment rate for youth in Manitoba is now almost 17 percent, and we have 3,000 more unemployed young people than we did last year at this time and, yet, our community college budget is less than it was two years ago, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister tell the House how many new, additional places she will be making available at Red River Community College this year for those Manitobans? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, we have in fact increased our new programming at all three of the colleges.

I read some of those new programs into the record, and it will result in over 600 new positions. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm that last year, when her government reduced Red River Community programs by over 500 places, she made a very serious mistake? Every one of those programs today, from secretarial certificate to autobody repair to the piping trades and power engineering has a waiting list until at least September 1993, and I would like to table a list of 24 courses which have waiting lists. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, we did in fact ask for some redirection in the community colleges last year, and even last year this government also provided new programming into the community colleges, both at Red River, Assiniboine Community College and Keewatin Community College. We have added to those new programs this year and we have expanded previous programs that are already operating at the college. •

(1015) Alternatives Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Will the minister tell the House then what she tells those young people on those waiting lists who have nowhere to go? Is the answer a private school at double or triple the cost to students, or is it social assistance? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Of course we are concerned about young people and adults who wish to study at community colleges, but this government has, and I will say again, increased the programming last year, increased the programming this year, and we have other training opportunities which this government has been supporting, including Workforce 2000. Student Social Assistance Categorization Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, social assistance recipients in this province are divided into two categories.

There is one which encompasses all recipients except two groups, students and those who have been on social assistance for less than

March 27, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1756 three months. These two groups received less money than the regular. Would the Minister of Family Services please tell the House why students on social allowance are put in a separate and lower category than others on social allowance, and can he explain how this jibes with the commitment made by his First Minister earlier this week to remove disincentives to work and training? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Manitoba, I believe, is th e only jurisdiction that provides social allowance benefits for students who are in the work force part of the time and then back to various training institutions and schools. The program has been in place for a long time, and we make adjustments to those programs and to the regular Social Allowances Program on a regular basis as we are able to put the resources into those programs. Regulation Changes Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): They certainly do make changes to the system, but it is not often to put new resources into the system. On April 1, 1992, this government has passed a regulation to be effective on April Fools' Day, which can only make me believe that the minister thinks he can fool all of the people some of the time. He has in fact increased the amount of time that a social recipient will be left at the lower category from three months to six months. Can the Minister of Family Services tell the House how he considers that a progressive move for these recipients? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): The member indicates that we are not putting new resources into social allowances, and that is absolutely untrue. We have increased the social allowances this year by some 3.6 percent. We have also created a new program this year for the disabled, and we have flowed the tax credits on a more timely basis and adjusted the liquid assets level. We have done a tremendous amount of reform and put a lot of new resources into the budget for this particular year.

Even in very difficult times, we have been able to create a new program for social allowance recipients who are disabled. On the one hand, we are sometimes criticized by the other opposition party for putting too much money into social allowances and not into the other areas of this department. We have increased the budget for Family Services this year by some 8. 7 percent, the highest increase across government. Mrs.

Carstalrs : Let me read from the government's own regulation impact statement, which says: It is estimated that the Social Allowances Program will save approximately 1 05,000 in 1992-93 as a result of this change in regulation. Can the Minister of Family Services tell us why they have chosen to increase and improve their bottom line while forcing those who live in poverty to live on less of a bottom line? Mr. Gll leshammer: This budget shows an increase of some $41 million to social allowance recipients, and we have had to make some adjustments within the program.

The adjustments also include some tremendous increases. If you look at the increases that we have given relative to other provinces, in Manitoba the basic social allowances are increasing by 3.6 percent. Even in difficult times like this at a cost of $8 million to government, we have created a new program. So let not the member indicate that we are giving less in the total Social Allowances Program. We in fact are putting $41 million more into social allowances this year. Economic Growth Government Polley Mr. Leonard Evan s (Brandon Ea st) : Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance.

We have now some new figures from Statistics Canada on the loss of people from this province to other provinces. In fact, the report shows that since this government assumed office in the spring of 198 8, Manitoba has suffered a net loss of over 35,000 people through interprovincial migration. It is almost the size of the city of Brandon. It is a clear indication of the lack of jobs in this province under this government. In fact, we have fewer jobs today in Manitoba than we had in 198 8 when this government assumed office.

1757 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 27, 1992 Will this Minister of Finance, after five budgets, now acknowledge that his economic policies have failed and that Manitoba's economy has stagnated with this administration? •

(1020) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, without accepting any of the

preamble of the member across the way, I would think that the member opposite would be proud of the achievements of this government over the last three or four years in holding the budget line down to a level where taxes have not increased, where expenditures across government have been amongst the lowest, if not the lowest, in Canada over the last four or five years, so much so, Mr. Speaker, that we have not had to resort in our last budget, as some other provinces which I will not name in this question, to increased taxes. I would think that the member for Brandon East would be very satisfied with that.

Now the member has put the focus on population. I would say to him that maintaining low increases in government expenditures leading to reduction in taxes for the most part will begin to pay back. Mr. Speaker, we are on the right track, we know we are on the right track. We talked to the Premiers of different provincial stripes from Atlantic Canada. We know they are on the right track; they know we are on the right track. It is only the member for Brandon East who would want to take a different track. We took his track eight years ago and all it did was increase our debt to $10 billion. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr.

Speaker, we have been on this track for five budgets now-five budgets, 1-2-3-4-5. Interprovincial Migration Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Will this minister explain precisely to this House how his economic policies are going to be effective in view of the fact that the rate of population loss in the last quarter of 1991 of last year was the highest in the country? That is, in the last three months of 1991, we lost people at a faster rate than any other single province in this country. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to refer the member to the budget paper, pages 12 and 13, Appendix B. There is a 1 0-year ranking of population statistics in the province. I would point out to the member that in 1983-84 the population of the province was 1,046,000 and that over the last 10 years that number has grown slowly, sometimes more quickly, sometimes more slowly, but always growing, forecast to be at the end of '92-93 1.1 million people.

So growth in Manitoba continues along the same path as it has been basically over the last 25 years, slow but trending upward, and I say to the members, that is the character of this province. It is the way it has always been, and it is the way it will continue to be for years to come. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, it always has not been that way. In some years we have actually gained people through interprovincial migration. In fact, in last year- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Question, please. Mr. Leonard Evans: Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, my last question is: Exactly, precisely, will this minister tell this House: What is his government going to do to create more jobs and stem the outward flow of people? I say that because last year alone we lost over 7,600 people through interprovincial migration, a net-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. •

(1025) Mr. Manness: That is a good question, Mr. Speaker, particularly for the member coming from Brandon. What we are going to do is continue to follow the same path we have in keeping down government spending and keeping taxes such that the city of Brandon, which the member represents a portion, will be able to take a booklet like the budget and show how they rank vis-a-vis other competitive centres, particularly U.S. centres, whether it is Fargo or Minneapolis.

They will be able to point out-- and I am talking now about the city of Brandoll-On a competitive basis, when one looks at state taxes versus provincial taxes, that they are in a very highly favoured position in a competitive sense. I would think the member for Brandon East would want to take this document and would want to help those people in Brandon who care about its economic future, try and bring business to Brandon so that indeed the province as a whole and Brandon will

March 27, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1758 benefit through it. I would think there is good news here and he would want to help share it. Selkirk School of Psychiatric Nursing Closure Postponement Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Last year, without consultation, the Minister of Health announced that the 70-year-old School of Psychiatric Nursing in Selkirk was being closed after repeatedly being recognized for its work. Now we find out the minister is planning on spending over $400,000 on a study of psychiatric nursing training after the fact.

Will the minister postpone closing the school until this study is finished? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Dewar: If Selkirk closes this year, this minister will not be providing nursing graduates until1999. Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Mr. Dewar: Why does this minister not accept the recommendations of the Selkirk Chamber of Commerce, the Selkirk Council, thousands of area residents, the association of psychiatric nursing, who have all requested this minister to consult with the public prior to the closure of the school? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, I want to indicate to my honourable friend that considerable thought went into the decision of last budget. It was not a unilateral decision which led to the closure of the registered Psychiatric School of Nursing in Portage Ia Prairie some seven years ago, without any consultation, without any plan for the future.

As I have indicated consistently to my honourable friend, and I know he does not want to hear good news, but I have told him since the day of the budget announcement last year about the consolidation of the two schools of psychiatric nursing to Brandon, that it will be predicated upon the development of an enhanced education program in Brandon for psychiatric nursing, not only involving the two-year current program, but a four-year baccalaureate program, which will aid us in accomplishing the mental health reforms to the community that we so much desire.

It is certainly an enhancement of psychiatric nursing in the province of Manitoba, building on our strengths, building on the strengths of Brandon. I note with interest the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) has yet to thank me for this bold initiative move. Brandon School of Psychiatric Nursing Closure Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Selkirk residents do not trust this minister. They do not trust this government, Mr. Speaker.

Why does this minister repeatedly claim in this Chamber that Brandon would expand with the closure of Selkirk, when it has now been revealed that the Brandon school of nursing will also be shut down? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I do not know what my honourable friend bases his information on, but it is inaccurate, if I heard him correctly, that the Brandon school of nursing will be closing. That is inaccuracy of the type that I did not even think the member for Selkirk could bring to this Chamber.

Let me reiterate and let me try to make it as clear and as simple as I possibly can so my honourable friend from Selkirk wm understand. We are building upon the strengths of psychiatric nursing training in the province of Manitoba by two steps: firstly, the consolidation of the two-year diploma program of psychiatric nursing to Brandon, the announcement today of the $433,000 commitment to develop not only a revamped two-year program for psychiatric nursing; in addition, a four-year baccalaureate prepared program for psychiatric nursing, Mr.

Speaker, to fit in the changing dynamic of personnel requirements for the delivery of mental health services in a reformed mental health system announced earlier this year with significantly increased emphasis on community-based care, something that all members of this House have bought into, with the obvious exception of my honourable friend from Selkirk. *

(1030) Francophone Schools Governance Legal Opinion Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Monsieur le president, ma question est pour le premier ministre. Face a Ia regrettable annonce faite hier par Ia ministre de !'Education au sujet de Ia gestion scolaire qui non seulement porte tellement a confusion, mais surtout qui ne semble pas repondre

1759 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 27, 1992 du tout aux attentes des Franco-manitobains et Franco-manitobaines et, reconnaissant le fait que deux juristes constitutionnalistes ont deja indique aux or ganismes Franco-manitobains que le processus de Ia mise en place des structures de Ia division scolaire francophone tel qu'annonce par Ia ministre semble etre en conflit direct avec les droits garantis par I'

article 23 de Ia Charte canadienne des droits et libertes, rna question: Le premier ministre pourrait-il indiquer a cette chambre quels avis legaux a-t-il re9us a savoir si Ia proposition d'implantation de Ia gestion scolaire telle qu' annoncee hier par Ia ministre de !'Education est conforme a !'article 23 de Ia Charte des droits et libertes? (Translation) Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the First Minister. In the light of the regrettable announcement made yesterday by the Minister of Education (Mrs.

Vodrey) in regard to schools governance, which not only leads to great confusion but which above all does not seem in any way to respond to the expectations of Franco-Manitobans, and recognizing the fact that two constitutional law yers have already indicated to Franco-Manitoban organizations that the process for setting up the structures of the Francophone school division, as announced by the Minister, seems to be in direct conflict with the rights guaranteed under

Section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, my question is: Could the First Minister indicate to this House what legal opinions he has received as to whether the proposal for implementation of schools governance, as announced yester day by the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey), is in accordance with

Section 23 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Hon. Gar y Fllm on (Premier): I thank my honourable colleague from St. Boniface for the question. I might say that the proposal with respect to French language schools governance is one that is the result of extensive public review and extensive consultations.

The member may know that after the Mahe case was decided in the Supreme Court, Manitoba took very prompt action in appointing the Gallant commission to review and bring forward recommendations for governance structures and models that might be appropriate for French language education in Manitoba, in accordance with the rather flexible response that the Supreme Court had in leaving open the range of options in the governance model to Manitoba to decide.

After the Gallant commission report, there were continuing discussions within the Francophone community, with parents who were on both sides of the issue, I might say: parents who want a particular type of governance structure, parents who want choice with respect to governance structure and acknowledge the Supreme Court's decision at the same time. Within the context of those further discussions, a model was developed in full consultation, I might say, with the Constitutional Law Branch of the Province of Manitoba.

After the model was developed and all the various legal and practical implementation ramifi cations were assessed, the model that was announced yesterday was arrived at. We have every confidence that it will meet the test of

Section 23 and the Supreme Court ruling on the Mahe case with respect to ensuring the rights of Francophone parents to have a governance model for their schools. Legal Opinion Request Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Ma question est au premier ministre. Est-ce que le premier ministre pourra deposer en chambre aujourd' hui les avis legaux qu'il a ob tenus du de part ement constitutionnel de Ia province? (Translation) My question is to the First Minister. Could the First Minister table in the House today the legal op ini ons that he has obtained from the Constitutional Law Branch of this province? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): I might tell the member for St. Boniface, given that even from his

preamble there is an indication that there might be challenge brought to the province, obviously our legal position and our legal opinions will remain the opinions of the government. That is normally the case. That is the case because we obviously want to ensure that the validity of our actions can be defended in court, in any court, including the Supreme Court, and we are confident that the opinions that we have confirm our ability to make the decision that we have made in this case.

March 27, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1760 School Division Boundary Review Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Monsieur le president, ma question est pour Ia ministre de I' Education. Pourquoi avoir abandonne Ia revision des frontieres des divisions scolaires quand Ia question de Ia gestion scolaire francophone aurait fort bien pu etre englobee et traitee de faQOn egale aux autres divisions scolaires existantes presentement? (Translation) Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education.

What is the reason for having abandoned the review of school division boundaries when the matter of Francophone schools governance could very well have been incorporated into it and dealt with in the same way as the other school divisions that currently exist? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Th e issu e of Francophone governance is, as I said yesterday, a new issue in Manitoba, a precedent-setting action. We need the implementation team to go out into the communities to determine those community areas who would like to be a part of the governance model.

We need to do one thing at a time to initiate a school boundaries review at the same time as trying to implement Francophone governance, which we realize is a step-by-step process. It is well laid out. A step-by-step process will be completed with the transfer of students, the board active in '93, the transfer of students in '94. At that time, we will then know the effect on present school divisions. Independent Schools Funding Formula Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education, and it is fairly straightforward. Will the minister confirm-[interjection] Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Kildonan has the floor. Mr. Chomlak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It applies to Manitoba and it involves simple arithmetic. Will the minister confirm that she announced a $2-million increase to private schools yesterday, which will bring the total increase to $20 million, which is a 9 percent funding increase to private schools over last year's increase? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am not sure how the honourable member arrives at his arithmetic.

I am giving the equivalent increase that we give to the public school system and the addition, in accordance with the letter of comfo rt, that agreement of phase-in; the figures do not add up to 9 percent. In that area it adds up to approximately slightly over 8 percent, and then there will be, of course, additions for increased enrollment. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for clarifying that the increase is only 8 percent, which is only less than three times what public schools get. Will the minister confirm that two particular schools, St.

John's-Ravenscourt and Balmoral Hall, will again get 25 percent of that increase similar to what they got last year? A quarter of that total increase will go to St. John's-Ravenscourt and Balmoral Hall. Mrs. Vodrey: I do not have with me the figures that those two schools will be getting but I can tell the member, last year, in '91-92, more money flowed to independent schools in the constituencies for the members across the way than the total amount of the money thatflowed into the constituencies on this side. Mr.

Chomlak: Will the minister undertake to again talk to the separate schools and try to persuade them to accept the 3 percent or less increase that the public school system has gotten this year in the question of fairness and equity for all the children in Manitoba? Mrs. Vodrey: Fairness and equity have been covered through the letter of comfort, which was an agreement. I take the member back to two points. One, he was not here when the letter of comfort was agreed to, and the purpose of that was to avoid the court challenge in the remedial order of petition in which 100 percent funding was requested. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let me tell you that at this point in this year, we are funding to 63.5 percent of what the public school students would receive in capital only. Let me take him back to July 1986 when the Minister of Health from the NDP party urged his government to consider providing at least 75 percent of the need. He said: Let us develop a policy to rectify the infamous independent school issue; let us correct this injustice once and for all.

1761 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 27, 1992 Point of Order Mr. Chomlak: At that time when the minister made that statement- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *

(1040) Ablnochl Preschool Program Funding Mr. Geor ge Hl ckes (Point Dougla s): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Native Affairs. The minister stated that he supported the concept of Abinochi preschool. Will he now show leadership and planning? This school is directly under his responsibility as Minister of Native Affairs, since the Department of Education said it does not fit under their criteria and also Family Services stated the same. Will the minister now take this to cabinet to see where this program could fit to help the aboriginal people? Hon.

James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, unlike the previous adminis tration, which had no plans for the continuance of this program after the Core Area Initiative in fact came to an end, we did provide an additional one-year funding of some $64 ,000 so that there was a time period that additional funding could be worked on and found. Unfortunately, we do not have the ability to fund it under our Northern and Native Affairs portfolio. As sympathetic as I may be to the program, it just does not qualify for any program funding within my department. Meeting Request Mr.

Geor ge Hl ckes (Point Douglas) : Mr. Speaker, just to clarify to the minister: I did not ask him to fund it under Northern Affairs. Meet with your cabinet to see where it fits. That is what the people want. Will the minister arrange to meet with the Abinochi board and to attend that meeting in person? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the member the other day, I was prepared to meet with the Abinochi people to discuss this issue. I said that the other day. My word is still the same today; I am prepared to meet with them. Funding Mr.

George Hlckes (Point Douglas): Will the minister approach his cabinet colleagues to see if he can get the funds that are allocated, $2 0-some million from private schools, to find $130,000 to fund the Abinochi preschool program? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): There is an agreement between the independent schools and the government of Manitoba for a funding arrangement. To my knowledge, there is no other funding for any preshcool program for any group in our society. So there is a substantive difference. University of Manitoba Student Safety Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday, in a public building on the University of Manitoba campus, another woman was brutally assaulted, this time in broad daylight. This is not the first incident such as this that we have been made aware of, that we know about, not only at university campuses but throughout our cities and our towns and our communities throughout this province. I would like to ask the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) if she has met with the students of the University of Manitoba who have conducted a safety audit on the issues of safety at that campus. Has she met with those students? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, the issue of student safety in any place, and particularly in the place that they are studying where their hours are sometimes irregular, is of great concern to this government. I have met with the student presidents of the Unive rsity of Manitoba, Brandon University, University of Winnipeg, College universitaire de Saint-Boniface, about 10 days ago, and I will also be meeting with them today at one o'clock again. Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the minister for that response and certainly hope that something positive comes out of those meetings. Pedlar Commission Report Recommendations Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): I would like to ask the Minister of Education if she has talked with

March 27, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1762 her colleagues in cabinet, particularly the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) and the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), regarding the immediate beginning of implementation of the medium and long-range recommendations in the Pedlar commission, so that we can deal with this issue of viole nce, not just from the incident-by-incident manner which this government has dealt with these issues, but that we as a province can begin to deal in long-term preventive ways with this problem. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, on Monday of next week, March 30, the community advisory committee chaired by Mrs. Dorothy Pedlar will be meeting to discuss the short, medium and long-term responses to the Pedlar review. University of Manitoba Student Safety Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): A final question to the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey): Is the minister prepared at this point to commit additional funds to the University of Manitoba that are targeted specifically to additional security measures, so that the students of the University of Manitoba can walk the streets and the tunnels and the campus of the university in safety?

Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, yes, I was concerned enough this morning to direct my department to speak to the university. They have, in fact. The university is intending to be proactive. They have told me they are considering to implement increased safety measures at this time. We recognize that the university campus is a large campus, and I am asking the university to look carefully at what additional safety measures can be taken, and they have agreed to do that. Home Care Program Accessibility Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr.

Speaker, I have a constituent who was a victim of a sickness called lupus. He has lost control of his muscles, and it is a gradual degeneration. The home care worker had given up on the case, the wife was the only one working and, out of compassionate love for her husband, she had to quit her job and she is not qualified for anything else. Would the honourable Minister of Health reconsider the question of whether or not this wife could, instead of going to welfare, receive at least a home care stipend? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, with regret, I missed the first part of my honourable friend's question, but if I understand from the

part I did hear, that he has a constituent who is having difficulties with parts of my ministry, I would be very pleased if my honourable friend would provide me, if he can, with the details of the individual, and I will pursue it on his constituent's behalf. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve Itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider and report of Bill 67 or Interim Supply.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider and report of Bill 67, The Interim Appropriation Act, 1992; Loi de 1992 portant affectation anticipee de credits, for third reading, with the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Bill 67-The Interim Appropriation Act, 1992 Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Order, please. Will the Committee of the Whole please come to order to continue to consider Bill 67, (The Interim Appropriation Act, 1992; Loi de 1992 portant affectation anticipee de credits). Mr.

Kev in Lamour eux (In kster ) : Madam Chairperson, I just have a few questions for the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey). The other day, the Leader of the Liberal Party had asked the minister some questions regarding the Red River College and had made reference to some of the percentage failure rates on the one exam being 81 percent and the second one at 77 percent. I will first commend the minister for the action that she took on it. I thought it was very responsible.

1763 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 27, 1992 We understand that she made a commitment to look into it. I would ask the Minister of Education if she could possibly just report if she has heard anything, if in fact it was at 77 percent and 81 percent? *

(1050) Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Chairperson, I have asked the college to look into the matter of nursing. I would like to raise a couple of points. First of all, on the very afternoon of our discussion the nursing faculty met with the students. They wanted to help the students interpret the percentages because there had been a number of tests taken, and the questions were whether or not the students had understood in fact what the results were.

I think one of the most important points that happened on that afternoon was the communication between the students and the faculty which was by far and away the most efficient way to settle difficulties. However, I have in addition to that asked for a review of the testing practices. I recognize that the content, the curriculum, is also set by MARN or the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses. Students in fact do write a national exam at the end. I would also just like to raise in my discussion that I do have information that the students writing that national R.N. exam from Red River have done very well.

I believe one of the top students last year was from Red River. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, it was just a concern that I had, because I had a constituent who gave me a call regarding it and was somewhat surprised that in fact the failure rate was that high, and as I say, I am glad the minister is looking to the students and the faculty staff. I know she would like just to add something to it, so I will sit down and let her. Mrs.

Vodrey: I would also like to point out in my discussion with the faculty that this is not a different rate from past years as students enter into the testing process, that this is not in some way a particularly difficult year. This is a method that has been used and there is not just one test one time, but that in fact students are tested when they are able to view the area that they had difficulty with; they then are able to take a second test. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I want to move on to a different area with the same minister, and that is, of course, in regard to the whole question of the school divisions and the number of school divisions that we have in Manitoba. I know it has always been a high priority for myself because for my constituents it is a very serious issue.

I have stood up on many different occasions to talk about some of the inequities that we have in the number of school divisions, or the make-up of the school divisions, and particularly I represent School Division No. 1, which the minister is well aware of in terms of its size compared to other school divisions and some of the problems that School Division No. 1 has.

I was encouraged when I first heard that the minister was looking at reviewing all of the school divisions, but was somewhat surprised when the minister had decided not to proceed and investigate or look into the whole matter of the need to change the school divisions in the city of Winnipeg. I would ask the minister if she has any idea in terms of when she sees the school divisions, the whole issue of educational reform being addressed. Mrs. Vodrey: The issue of educational reform is, of course, ongoing at this very moment.

The issue of educational reform that we presently are dealing with is, first of all, the legislative reform hearings, which were completed in January. Those hearings were to look at any amendments that the community might like to have made to The Public Schools Act; in addition to that , we have embarked on Francophone governance now. We are also into the first year of a new educational finance model.

With thos e issues presently before the educational system, there is a great deal to do conceptually and in just plain hard work that the educational community let me know that they really had enough to do at the moment in order to do it well. So there are those considerations, though I understand the member and his party have strongly supported the issue of school boundaries review. I think it is very important that whatever is done is in fact done well, and there is now quite a lot being done in terms of educational reform within all school divisions. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, I know that the government, when it places a priority on doing something, they are fairly effective in doing it. We saw that, and an excellent example that one could cite is City Council. The government made a commitment to reduce City Council, or reform City

March 27, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1764 Council. It ultimately was reduced from 29 to 15, and one could argue that the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ernst), like the Minister of Education, also had a lot on his plate, but was quite able to come up with the comprehensive package that saw the whole question of reforming City Hall being implemented. I would suggest that, if the political will was there to have a change at the school board level, it would take place.

I know in one article, when I went through the different school divisions and the property taxes that are being levied against homeowners-o nce again, Winnipeg 1, as it always is, is the highest-(interjection] Well, I do not know that for a fact, if it always has been the highest. I do know that in the more recent years it has been the highest of the school divisions in the city of Winnipeg, in fact, I understood, in the province of Manitoba. Madam Chairperson, It is a very serious issue.

A number of not only my constituents, I would argue, but in fact a number of constituents throughout the province of Manitoba would like to see the minister expedite-m uch in the same fashion that they did the City of Winnipeg reform legislation. I know that it took the City of Winnipeg a couple of years to do it, two or possibly three years. The minister and the government have made a commitment to doing the same thing, the same type of reform to the school boards. That commitment was made a year and a half ago.

Well, the government has now stated that it might be a few years before we actually see something occurring. I respect what the former Minister of Urban Affairs is saying, but I would still suggest that the government could act in a faster fashion and still consult and do a proper job of it by not putting it on the back burner. That is all. If she wants to comment on it, fine. Mrs. Vodrey: I appre ciate the opportunity to comment briefly.

I would just like to make the honourable member well aware that any changes to school division boundaries have a great impact on other elected individuals, being trustees; how actual school administrations do their work; how students attend programs. The impact is really very widely felt. It will take a great deal of planning.

I would just like to make it clear that though I have heard the issues that he has raised, I am not sure that we can compare the issue of school division boundaries to the issue of ward boundaries, because I do think that there are different constituents involved in the school review. .. (1 1 00) Mr. Gui zar Cheema (The Maples) : Madam Chairperson, I have a question for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Last week the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson) released the report on the credentials for the foreign-trained professionals.

One of the areas where they have made some progress was the issue of the forei gn-traine d physicians, and especially the refugee physician training program that we have in Manitoba. As I understand, that is the only program in this country where the physicians, who are coming to Manitoba on a refugee status, could have access to that program. Now with the two-year indenture program, that program may be cutting the number of positions, because now you have to have a two-year indenture program. Concern was expressed to me, and I just wanted the Minister of Health to look into that issue.

The program is still there, but the numbers may be cut because of the two-year indenture program, because the money is limited. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): My honourable friend has identified a very real issue. There are actually two issues, but the one he is now receiving some-1 think it is fair to say some discussion, is the whole Issue of two-year Internship and its necessity across all of the medical disciplines.

I think it is fair to say that a number of people involved in planning delivery of health care are now questioning the whole two-year internship and whether it is an appropriate national goal for us to seek. Certainly, we have had those kinds of discussions in Manitoba. To put it frankly, I am asking clearly whether the additional investment by students of medicine of that second year is an appropriate dedication of resource at this time in the juncture of health care planning in Manitoba. I think it is fair to say that other jurisdictions are asking the same kind of question.

Now, there are two other dynamics that play in terms of the refugee training program at the Faculty of Medicine. Arst of all, they are going through prioritization of their resources and are having to make some decisions around the program. Secondly, we are also considering the impact of the Barer-Stoddart report in the overall dynamics of

1765 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 27, 1992 graduate capacity at the University of Manitoba. 1 think it is fair to say that the report tabled by my honourable colleague was a helpful report. Mr. Cheema: My question is very specific. With this two-year internship program-and I am not questioning the whole program as such, because the consensus has been reached as far as the medical schools are concerned-my question is as regards to this refugee physician program which, by the changes of two-year internship program, numbers may be cut because they have so much money, and they can maybe cut the numbers.

That issue was raised to me, and I just want the minister to look into that because that may eliminate one or two more positions and that may not be advisable. The second issue here-1 am sure we will discuss more in detail in the Health Estimates-is for the whole issue of the number of medical school graduates. I think the other issue that the minister should look into is a very serious one when you have a two-year internship program and now we are going to have a one-year period when we will not have any fresh graduates.

At that time there may be some difficulties of having the service in some of the communities. Some kind of program has to be put in place so that some of the communities do not lose some essential services, because some new graduates do go into some of the communities in the northern and rural areas as well as other parts of Manitoba. So, in a two-year program, there is going to be one year that there is going to be some difficulty, but that issue can be discussed in detail when the minister has the other staff.

I just want him to know that we are concerned about that refugee program so that the numbers, if they are reduced, would have an impact on these people who have already been waiting for a long time. Mr. Orchard: Madam Chairperson, that is exactly the dynamics of discussions that are going on right now. There are several things that are impacting on the budget at the Faculty of Medicine, and, hopefully, we can achieve the best decisions to protect valuable programs, as my honourable friend has identified, with the uniqueness of our refugee physician training program. Mr.

Cheema: I just want to ask the minister the other issue on the same lines that, given there are a number of foreign-trained physicians and the other health care professionals in Manitoba, and given this new report which will help to some extent to solve some of the problems for those people, how much input is the Department of Health going to have into the future direction of this report so that they can develop a policy, a clear-cut policy? It is not very clear.

At least they have the office where people can go, but I think the next step is going to be which department is going to play an important and major role, because most of the professionals to a greater degree, if they are in the health care service industry, are nurses or doctors or physiotherapists or occupational therapists or psychologists or any other kinds of services. I just want the minister to have somebody from his own office to have a special role to play in the future role of this credentials office, so that the minister would have some direct connection with that department.

I think that will help in the long run. Mr. Orchard: Agreed, Madam Chairperson, and the challenge is expanded in that our liaison with the office has to be in concert with the licensing bodies that establish the accreditation requirements for all the range of disciplines my honourable friend has mentioned, so that it is not solely an initiative of government in isolation, it is government in discussion and co-operation with the professional licensing bodies as well. Mr.

Cheema: Madam Chairpers on, I have a question for the minist er responsible for intergovernmental affairs, or the acting minister responsible for that. I have a question for the Premier (Mr. Filmon), but the Premier is not here in the House, so can somebody take that question as notice and then convey to him? I have a large number of constituents who are from Asia, and the majority of them are having a lot of difficulties in terms of immigration problems out of the New Delhi and Manila offices.

I understand that is not the role of this government, but at least the Premier can convey to the federal government that we are facing major problems. I will give an example. It is a very, very tragic story. A brother of one of my constituents died about three weeks ago. His body is still lying in a funeral home, and his family cannot come because the New Delhi office is being very irresponsible. We have made personal calls. We have called them four times. We have been able to get in touch with some immigration officers. Two of them there have been very, very arrogant and very abusive. I think

March 27, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1766 it is very sad that the body is still lying in a funeral home and his wife and his son cannot come. I understa nd this is not an issue of this government, but still we have a large number of constituents who have family back home, so if they want to come on a compassionate basis, that kind of situation has to be solved. The same situation exists out of the Manila office, not only on this particular situation, but the delay in the immigration process, which is anywhere from six months to two, three or four years.

There is a major problem in the number of officers. Out of the Manila and New Delhi offices there is a very insignificant number, and they are working now four days a week in the New Delhi office, only Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. So Friday and Saturday they do not take any new applications. In the morning in the New Delhi office they have a line-up of more than half a mile at seven o'clock just to get to go to the office.

We have been told that some of the applicants who have been already sponsored by their relatives and their family and are coming on a legal basis, it takes them at least two to three days just to reach the line, even the watchman at the door of the embassy. It is becoming very, very tough. • (11 10) The members of Parliament from Manitoba and other parts have raised the issue, and I want the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to look into that, because we have a large number of constituents who are very much concerned.

I want them to send a strong message that nobody is asking for handouts or asking them to do something illegal; we are simply asking for fair access to the system. When you have the immigration officers in New Delhi, the numbers are less than somebody coming out of even the States. The States has more offices with more officers, and we have the least number of people coming from the States to Canada. We have a large number of officers in Europe and people are not coming from there in the same capacity as from Southeast Asia. I think that problem is a very serious one and has to be taken care of.

This particular person I was talking about, this person's funeral is going to be on this Sunday because they cannot hold the body that long. It is very, very sad. They did not make the media news because the family does not want to have their names put in the papers, but they have asked me that I should at least bring it to this House and make their concerns known. It is a very tragic story, and I hope the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) will convey it to the minister of intergovernmental affairs. Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Chairperson, I recorded the information or at least a portion of it. I do not know whether the member has approached the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson), but I will on his behalf. We will start there. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Just a few short questions arising out of matters that have developed over the last couple days. We have the copy of the Order-in-Council dealing with the forest fire compensation, the ongoing saga of the forest fire compensation.

Does this close the full compensation request from the provincial government and the settlement from the federal government? Mr. Manness: The short answer is yes. This was a most complicated matter. The final resolution was even more complicated because, indeed, we had an outstanding liability owing to the federal government with respect to a farm payment, the 198 9 payment with respect to drought. So, the short answer is yes, the case is closed. We will have all the monies, all the cheques will be exchanged, I am led to believe, by the end of April. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier, and I remember even the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) talking about situations in other forest fires in other communities, Manicouagan being one, a while ago, looking back at Hansard, indicated the net loss to Manitoba from the forest fires was $7 5 million. The government had placed a revenue Item in the budget a couple of years ago, and was cited by the Auditor for it. I believe it was $18 million-! am just going by memory-but certainly in the range between $16 million and $18 million.

It looks to me, reading the Order-of-Council, that the net money is $17 million for the forest fires in 1989. Is that correct? Mr. Manness: The net amount that we will be paid is $3 0 million. It has all been booked. The formula at the time-and this is where some of the uncertainties come around the $16 million or $18 million-w ould have provided $16 million or $18

1767 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 27, 1992 million. We had booked the $30 million in two fiscal years ago. We did receive the $30 million in cash, but as far as this year's account's showing, it will show no increase whatsoever, because of course it was in a different fiscal year when we accounted for it. So the $1 7 million as sh own in the Order-in-Council has more to do with net deductions and payment schedules as related to what we call the CCDA, drought assistance program.

There are offsets going through a couple of years because the federal government had provided originally and written a cheque for about $1 .5 million. That is all the money that we had received by way of cash, but because there are offsets, the 0/C comes printing out in $1 7 million. I want to assure the member that we got $30 million for the fire, net cash, and on the CCDAP, the drought assistance payment, we ended up paying $37-point-some million. Mr.

Doer: So, to get the Order-in-Council, we get the $30 million, and then we have $37 million for drought assistance from the federal government which we substract 25 percent which is Manitoba's portion, and that nets out to $1 7 million, just so I can understand the ne gotiations based on the Order-in-Council. Mr.Manness: Madam Chairperson, I am prepared to show the accounting to the Leader of the Opposition another day. It is very straightforward; it is not that easily understood. Yes, $37 million was 25 percent of that total payment. We did pay the federal government. I wrote a cheque to them.

It will be a couple of cheques because we do not have to pay it all in one year, so the $37 million is split, I think, into two payments, roughly $1 8 million each. Then the federal government, though, had already paid us $1 .5 million on the forest fires, so that is where the $1 7 million net comes from.

So we owe them $1 7 million and this first payment-that is what the 0/Cs refer to-but the forest fire is all going to come in one slug, I understand, because we receive it as a $30 million cheque, less $1 .5 million, that is around $28 .5 million, and we are going to get a cheque from the federal government by the end of April. Mr. Doer: So you will get a cheque for $28 .5 million, and that money will go towards the 1989 deficit as requested or required by the Auditor. It will not go into the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, will it? Mr. Manness: No. That has been accounted for once; we will not account for it twice.

Mr. Doer: Good. Thank you. A final question An Honourable Member: It should have come to me. Mr. Doer: Your name is not on this document. They have Agriculture on this document, the Minister of Finance and the Premier, but I do not see the honourable member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns).

A final question: Does the Minister of Finance feel, in light of the comments made by the Minister of Natural Resources and the Premier, that the forest fire compensation settlement was fair based on Manitoba's full cost of $75 million and fair in terms of the treatment of other provinces, particularly the province of Quebec in similar circumstance? Mr. Manness: In answer, I think I could more easily answer no, in looking specifically at Manitoba. I mean, the federal auditors came in how many times and went through those accounts several times.

In our view, we probably should have had more but yet it was far beyond the formula; vis-a-vis what has happened in other provinces, well, I do not think we were close enough. We heard in some cases that we were not treated as fairly. The federal government assures us we were. I mean, it is into the never-never land of really knowing for sure how we were treated as compared to Quebec. Certainly, in the first instance though, we really thought that in the first case we had a legitimate claim for $45 million.

But again the numbers, once you began to go into all of the accounts, and you could not split community from reserve, it became tremendously difficult. It was on that basis that over time we just had to clear this up. The federal government had been waiting several years for us to make a payment on the drought assistance program. I mean, they had carried that for a significant number of years and all at the high cost of interest, so it was just time to clean it up really. Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Chairperson, I am not trying to get into a debate or anything with the Minister of Health, I just want to ask him a question: Could he give us the funding level for the Brandon General Hospital for the current year, like for 1991-92?

March 27, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1768 I appreciate the fac t that the Manitoba Department of Health and the Manitoba Health Services Commission tabulates this and publishes it each year, but we are always a year behind of course. I am wondering if I could get the '91 -92 and the '92-93 Estimates, which I believe is now ready for that hospital. So I am asking for two numbers. Mr. Orchard: I do not have those numbers here. What my honourable friend wants to know is the budget for the current fiscal year that was allocated to the Brandon General Hospital and what the budget may be allocated next year.

I can provide the former for sure; the latter I will have to attempt to provide to my honourable friend. * (11 20) Madam Chairperson : We shall proceed to consider the bill clause by clause. Clause 1- pass; Clauses 2, 3(1) , 3(2), 4, 5, �ass;Ciauses7, 8, 9(1) , 9(2), 10, 11, 12 -pass; Clauses 13 , 14 , 15 and 16- pass;

Preamble-pass; Title-pass. Is it the will of the committee that I report the bill? Agreed. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION Committee Report Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of Committees): The Committee of the Whole has considered Bill 67, the Interim Appropriation Act, 19 92 (Loi de 19 92 portant affectation anticipee de credits), and directed me to report the same without amendment. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. REPORT STAGE Bill 67-The Interim Appropriation Act, 1992 Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), (by leave) that Bill 67, The Interim Appropriation Act, 19 92 (Loi de 19 92 portant affectation anticipee de credits), reported from the Committee of the Whole be concurred in. Motion agreed to. THIRD READINGS Bill 67-The Interim Appropriation Act, 1992 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr.

Ernst), (by leave) that Bill 67, The Interim Appropriation Act, 19 92 (Loi de 19 92 portant affectation anticipee de credits), be now read a third time and passed. Motion agreed to. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if we might summon the Lieutenant-Governor for Royal Assent of Bill67. House Business Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger), that when the House adjourns today it shall stand adjourned until Monday, AprilS, 199 2, at 1: 30p.m. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House? Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): On the motion made by the Finance minister, we certainly concur with that. We had discussions with the Premier, the First Minister, and the Leader of the Liberal Party in December about the timing of the House, and we are working in a consistent way and a predictable way, I hope, on that, except for the end of the session. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been agreed.

It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Finance, seconded by the honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation, that when the House adjourns today it shall stand adjourned until Monday, April 6, 19 92, at 1: 30 p.m. Agreed? (Agreed) * (11 30) ROYAL ASSENT Depu ty Sergea nt-at-Arms (Mr. Ro y MacGillivray): His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. His Honour George Johnson, Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the House and being seated on the throne, Mr. Speake r address ed His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in the following words:

1769 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA March 27, 1992 Mr. Speaker: May it please Your Honour: We , Her Majest y's most dutiful and faithful subjects, the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba in session assembled, approach Your Honour with sentiments of unfeigned devotion and loyalty to Her Majesty's person and government, and beg from Your Honour the acceptance of this bill: Biii67- The Interim Appropriation Act, 1992; Loi de 1992 portant affectation anticipee de credits. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor doth thank Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal su bjects, accepts their benevolence, and assents to this bill in Her Majesty's name. (His Honour was then pleased to retire.) Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you call it 12:30, please? Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to call it 12 :30? That is agreed? An Honourable Member: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: The hour being 12:30, this House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until April 6 (Monday) at 1 :30 p.m.

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Friday, March 27, 1992 CONTENTS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Presenting Petitions Foreign Domestic Program Lamoureux 1752 Reading and Receiving Petitions Criminal Code Amendment, Family Violence Chomiak 1752 Fight Back Against Child Abuse Campaign Barrett 1752 Santos 1752 Abinochi Preschool Program Funding Hickes 1753 Friesen 1753 Tabling of Reports Annual Reports: Culture, Heritage and Citizenship; Multiculturalism Secretariat; Women's Directorate Mitchelson 1753 Oral Questions Abitibi-Price - Pine Falls Doer; Filmon Community Colleges Friesen; Voclrey Student Social Assistance Carstairs; Gilleshammer Economic Growth L.

Evans; Manness Selkirk School of Psychiatric Nursing Dewar; Orchard 1754 1755 1755 1756 1758 Brandon School of Psychiatric Nursing Dewar; Orchard Francophone Schools Governance Gaudry; Filmon; Voclrey Independent Schools Chomiak; Voclrey Abinochi Preschool Program Hickes; Downey University of Manitoba Barrett; Voclrey Pedlar Commission Barrett; McCrae University of Manitoba Barrett; Voclrey Home Care Program Santos; Orchard ORDERS OF THE DAY Committee of the Whole Bill 67, Interim Appropriation Act, 1992 Report Stage Bill 67, Interim Appropriation Act, 1992 Man ness Third Readings Bill 67, Interim Appropriation Act, 1992 Man ness Royal Assent Bill 67, Interim Appropriation Act, 1992 1758 1758 1760 1761 1761 1761 1762 1762 1762 17 68 1768 1768

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-39
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 39.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5ecf7d8e4a27e55889584b5d93547ee6b9d62b16

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