THE LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBLY OF MANITOBA 8:30 o'clock, Tuesday, April 23rd, 1963 MADAM SPEAKER: Before I left the Chair at 5:30, I gave my ruling on the admissibility of the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. Anyone wishing to speak on this amendment may do so. MR . McLEAN: Madam Speaker, I'm not too clear on just how much in order I'm going to be .and I want to say that I'm within your dire ction, but I did want to say something about the amendment proposed by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia.

I normally would wait for that, except for the fact that the further amendment which has been moved by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks, as it were, sort of ties in with the proposed amendment of the Mem­ ber for Assiniboia, and I thought that in fairness,. I ought to say my piece now, to indicate what I had in mind. Madam Speaker, I was going to suggest to the Honourable Member for Assiniboia that he might consider withdrawing his amendment subject to what I am going to say at the moment --right now.

I point out that his amendment requests the Minister of Education to give cer­ tain instructions to school principals and teachers and athletic coaches with respect to school children and college students. Now, first of all, the Minister of Education can't give any in­ structions to athletic coaches and he certainly can •t give any instructions to college students or instructions that affect college students, so that" in that sense the Minister of Education would be unable to carry out what is requested there. In addition •• ••• MR .

PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, is the Honourable Minister speaking on the question of advertising, the subject matter of the amendment to the amendment. MR . McLEAN: I made that quite clear, Madam Speaker. I wanted to make my position clear and my only reason for speaking now is that if I let this sub-amendment go by without in­ dicating that I have something to say about the amendment, I would appear I think a little fool­ ish by coming back to it later on, but I'm in your hands.

MADAM SPEAKER: The sub-amendment of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks does tie in with the proposed amendment of the Honourable Member from Assiniboia. We haven't heard what the Honourable Minister of Education has to say on this, but rightfully speaking he should be speaking to the sub-amendment. MR . SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, rising on a point of order, I want to ask a question on a point of information. If a sub-amendment ties in to the amendment, a speaker may speak on one and relate his words to the other.

It does seem quite logical that one could speak on the sub-amendment and refer himself to the amendment and the sub-amendment both since they are inter-related• Doesn't that seem logical? MR. CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, you will find that this has been frequently our prac­ tice, that the two are so closely related that you cannot fully develop your subject without seeming to be touching on both of them, and I would suggest that in this instance that the Honourable Minister of Education be allowed to proceed.

MADAM SPEAKER: I would agree that the Honourable Minister could agree without re- ference to suggesting that the Honourable Member from Assiniboia withQI'aw his. MR . PAULLEY: Madam Speaker-- (Interjection)-- Pardon? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Education. MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, I am being advised from several directions that I can't do what I intend to do and I don't want to do anything wrong. I would think, Madam Speaker, that I should wait. I did want to ask the Honourable Member for Assiniboia to withdraw his amendment.

I was prepared to indicate why I thought he should do so and I believe that it would give a little different position to the sub-amendment which has been proposed by the Member for Seven Oaks. I don't want however to transgress the rules in order to accomplish the right objective. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Madam Speaker, with leave of the House, I would withdraw the two --not my amendment, but just the part where the Minister of Education says he cannot give any authority to athletic coaches and college students. Well, I would withdraw just those two words and not the whole amendment. HON.

DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): M�dam Speaker, speaking to the point of April 23rd, 1963 Page 1545

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd) ••••• order, I must confess I haven't that influence on my colleague that once I thought I had, because Pm quite sure that we can't deal with the amendment by with­ drawing any part of it or discussing it in direct terms at the present stage, and that we pro­ bably better deal with the sub-amendment and dispose of that and then my collefigue can come back. I thirik that what he had in mind was perfectly understandable, but I think that strict

interpretation of the rules would indicate that he cannot refer to it in such direct terms as he would like to do, so I'm going to use my influence with him, Madam Speaker, if I can, to per­ suade him to let it go until the sub-amendment is disposed of. MR .

PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, speaking on the point of order, if the Honourable Minister of Education finds himself in a position where. he.' s .in agreement with the sub-amend­ ment, it might carry and then after it has carried a further sub-amendment respecting the amendment for the Honourable Member for Assiniboia may be introduced which might achieve the desirability of the Honourable the Minister of Education, which will still retain the phraseology of the sub-amendment at that time. MR .

GROVES: While all these Solons of the Law and experts on the rules are sorting out the amendments and the sub-amendments, it might be in order to say a few words on the general topic of smoking. MADAM SPEAKER: The motion before the House is the sub-amendment of the Honour­ able the Member for Seven Oaks. Anyone wishing to speak on this may. do so. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed amendment of the Honourable the Member for As­ siniboia. MR .

McLEAN: In speaking now to the amendment of the Honourable Member for As­ siniboia, the original resolution deals with the subject of advertisements and advertising, and I leave that discussion to those more competent to discuss it. The Honourable the Member for Assiniboia has introduced a rather different approach with respect to what he suggests should be done by .the Minister of Education. I have impro­ perly and earlier indicated that of course the Minister of Education could give no instructions to athletic coaches and would have no juris diction over college students.

But I was going to suggest to him that he might consider withdrawing his· amendment since it deals with a subject different from that of advertising for this reason, that I would give him my undertaking that I, as Minister of Education, would be prepared to give written instructions to school principals and teachers to particularly pay attention to the course of studies ·insofar as it affects the sub­ ject of tobacco and smoking, and that perhaps with that undertaking and because his amend­ ment does deal with a little different aspect of the problem than advertising, which is what the Honourable the Member for Wellington is directly concerned with, that he might feel that that would satisfy the point that he wants to get at.

Now he might say, "Well, what is in the course of studies to which the Minister of Edu­ cation would direct the attention of school principal s and school teachers?" For Grades 4 to 6 in the general area of Health we have a text entitled •'Flealth, Safety and Success", and this text deals with the subject of tobacco. The topics covered are History of Smoking; Harmful Contents of Tobacco, that is nicotine; Injury to the Heart, Nerves and Breathing Muscles; Advice to wait unti1 21 years of age before deciding whether or not to smoke; and then it goes on to !IIDPlify on that general line.

Grades 7 and 8, the text is ''Your Health and Safety", and this text has this to say with regard to this subject. It covers the bodily effects ·of tobacco and the following are discussed: Depressant to the Nervous System; Disturbs Normal Heart Beat; Irritating to the Nose and Throat; Interferes with Breathing; Dulls the Senses of Taste and Smell. Then in the text which is used iii Grade 9, which is entitled "Science Indoors and Out", it devotes a considerable

section of the book to this subject of tobacco education and the following is a brief

summary of the topics discussed on these page s: Manufacturers' Tech:­ niques for Starting New Smokers; Cost of Smoking; Detail of Tobacco Contents; Harm to the Body, that is cancer, reduced hunger, speed heartbeat; Social Hazards, such as fire in homes, forest fires; and then some just further amplifications. Now what I wanted to say to the Honourable the Member for Assiniboia was that it seems from this that the subject of tobacco and the effect of it is covered reasonably well in the texts which are used, and I would give him my word that in; tructions would go out to each principle Page 1546 April 23rd, 1963

(Mr. McLean, cont'd) •• •• • and teacher in Manitoba, particularly directing their attention to the course of studies with regard to these matters, and the subject seems to be reasonably well covered, and perhaps that would enable the debate on this particular resolution to revert back to the subject of advertising, which I believe was what the Honourable the Member for Wellington wished to deal with primarily in his resolution. :MR .

CAMPBELL: On a point of order once again and to try and clarify the matter rather than confuse it, I would suggest to the Honourable the Minister of Health that the reso­ lution of the Honourable Member for Wellington is a double-barrelled one. It doesn't deal only with advertising; it has a first operative clause that the Legislature humbly requests the Minister of Health to investigate ways and means to encourage in every possible way any positive approach designed to reduce the recruitment of children to sm oking.- The advertis­ ing is a second resolution, so to speak. :MR .

SCHREYER: Madam Speake:�; this is one occasion when I find myself able to support the ideas and motives of the Honourable Member for Wellington and anyone else who sees fit to amend the original resolution. I think that if anyone wants to be taken seriously when he talks about the undesirability of the recruitment of young people to the habit, to be taken at all seriously, one should give some indication as to what tangible kind of action he is willing to endorse in order to bring about some kind of remedy of the situation.

I don't think that anyone here is so naive as to think that modern-day advertising isn't capable of exerting a terrific influence on all segments of society, particularly the young. Since 1945, the end of the last war, there have been tremendous strides and developments in the technique of advertising. Modern-day advertising has to do with motivational research, with hidden persuaders, and I'm sure members are aware of all these various aspects of the advertising industry.

Well if we want to do anything, if we mean ourselves to be taken seriously with regard to the undesirable habit of smoking and its consequences so far as health is concerned, we simply have to be prepared to take concrete tangible action.

Now in the past, governments, people through governments, which is their social instrument, have seen fit to have the advertising industry regulated, or restricted in one particular aspect or another, and it is not until we are prepared to do likewise insofar as the advertising of cigar­ ettes and smoking is concerned, not until such a time will we really deserve being taken seriously in this regard.

Concomitant with the idea of regulating advertising is the matter of using our educational system to persuade our young people that it is in fact more.harmful than meets the eye, there­ fore the amendment of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia is worthy of support. It would seem that there's a technicality involved here to the effect that the Minister of Education can­ not instruct coaches, college teachers, and so on, to do anything one way or the other, but if the word "instruct" were deleted and replaced by the word "recommend", it would solve that technical problem.

Generally speaking then, Madam Speaker, I think that what is required is the kind of action envisaged in the amendment proposed by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia to the effect that the Minister should, and his advisers should, take some positive action by recom­ mending, by suggesting, by persuading our teachers and our coaches, to act more positively in this regard and to also keep in mind the original motion of the Honourable Member for Wellington to the effect that we should investigate ways and means of the regulation of adver­ tising of cigarettes and so on.

Quite frankly I'm not only puzzled, I'm in despair to think that members here, while no one here got up to defend the habit, everyone here so far has seemed to think that it is desir­ able to put some kind of curbs on the recruitment of young people to smoking, yet for some reason just very casually voted against the previous sub-amendment, and quite frankly I fail to see the logic of the action.

So I would say in conclusion, Madam Speak er, that until we are convinced personally, until we are sufficiently convinced about the undesirability to endorse a policy of reg ulation of advertising, we are just kidding ourselves here. :MR . GRAY: Madam Speaker, I think it's a dream that we could eradicate the evil of smoking, either by resolution, or amendment, or an amendment to the amendment. Also, controlling advertising will not help. If we stop advertising in the local papers or magazines, most of the people in the Province of Manitoba and moet of the children read American April 23rd, 1963 Page 1547

(Mr. Gray, cont'd) ••••• magazines and we cannot stop them from accepting advertising for cigarettes, and they do it more fashionably and in a more expensive way than could be done by prohibiting or regulating advertising locally in this province. T�ere is only one thing to do, and the same applies t.o liquor, is education. If it takes five years longer to .educate, or ten years longer, even if we could do something constructive and prevent children from smoking and getting the habit of smoking, in 25 years we have done well.

All we can do is ask the Department of Education and the Department of Health to take it seriously under consideration and do everything possible by education, by showing the harm that is done, by publicizing the opinions of the greatest medical men in the world that smoking creates cancer; that smoking is not good; it is a waste of time and· a waste of money. No use telling me anything because I have the habit and I'll have to carry it through. Don't worry about me. If I live five years less it doesn't matter. It is the children that we have to start educat­ ing.

Let's forget about controlling advertising; it's impossible. If you pass the resolution, or you pass the amendment, it will be only on the journals as a record. It won't do a bit of good. There's only one thing to do.

Throw out the resolution and throw out the amendments, and let's ask -- and the Honourable Minister for Education did mention that he gives his word of honour that everything possible will be done by his department to prevent if possible, and as much as possible, the habit of young children to smoke; and also the Minister of Health to ad­ vocate -- put it in the curriculum'if you wish; have lecturers in the schools, and that's the only place to impress on them the harm it's going to do.

All this debate on controlling advertising, the debate on the amendment -- we should do this; we should do that-- ask the coaches, the coaches are grown-up people. You can take a horse to the trough but you can't compel him to drink. I feel that we are just wasting our time; we are just wasting our time in ariuing for hours on the wording of resolutions. Take the cow by the tail and pull it and this is the only way. What's the use of having chemistry or science, how to talk to animals.

Let's do it in a straight way; impress on them, and if you go to a room and it has 60 pupils or 40 pupils, if you could persuade ten, you've done a good job. It cannot be done in 24 hours. It's taken more than six days without resolutions to create the world and we cannot eradicate such a habit -- and a poor habit -- and let me tell you some­ thing else. The children that start to smoke is not because they wanted to smoke, it's a sport with them. Their friends smoke so they start, and once they start of course they get the habit. Save them before they start.

Anything else is just a waste of time and a waste of debating it. I'm speaking, Madam Chairman, on behalf of the Honourable Member for Inkster. :MR. PETERS: Madam Speaker, I'm afraid I have to disagree with the Honourable Mem­ ber from Inkster. He was speaking for himself and I am speaking for myself. He said the only way you can get over this smoking habit, or children starting to smoke, is through educa­ tion. What is education if it isn't advertising on TV which all children watch today.

They watch Juliette and she tells you "Light a Players, please"; and Bob Goulet, "Light up a Du Maurier" and what a pleasant feeling you get. If this isn't education for them to learn how to smoke, I don't know what is. I'm very sorry that I have to disagree with my honourable colleague from !nkster. MR. GR OVES:· In order to make my remarks strictly in order, I think I should start off by saying that one of the ways in which we can discourage children from smoking is by set­ ting them an example, and I would like to confine my remarks to how difficult it is sometimes to set that exam ple.

Now I'm in favour of the principle of the resolution that we shouldn't encourage children to smoke nor should we encourage manufacturers to falsely advertise their products, whether it be tobacco or some other product. I, however, am not too qualified to get deeper involved in this debate because I am one who started to smoke at an early age -- 17 to be exact. On two occasions I quit smoking for fairly lengthy periods, the first time with the aid of pills that were on the market at that time and I must say they worked very well.

On the second occasion I stopped smoking of my own free will and with the aid of my will-power. However, like most smokers who "go on the wagon", eventually I went back to the habit, although I am like most smokers convinced that I can cut down my consumption at various times and for various periods if I really make up my mind to do it. Page 1548 April 23rd,. 1963

(Mr. Groves, cont'd) ••••• With regard to the medical aspects that were dealt with by the Honourable Member for Wellington and the Honourable Minister of Education earlier this evening, I fail to see where the people in the medical profession have too much of a degree of unanimity, nor have they se t too good an example for their patients to follow. Even the Minister of Health, who swore so solemnly in this Chamber not too long ago that he was going to set us all an example and quit smoking, was caught in the hall just a few days ago sneaking a puff on one of his weeds • . MR.

JOHNSON: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, a matter of privilege, I would suggest my honourable friend read Hansard more carefully. MR. GROVES: Well I was very interested to see in the newspapers just a short time ago a picture of a little girl smoking a cigar, and the heading under the picture is: "Don't all little girls smoke cigars?" The

article goes on to say: "This appears to be the question asked by 3-year old Sonya Mae Everson of Tampa, Florida, who smokes about five cigars a day. She took a liking to tobacco when she was six months old when a cigar fell into her crib from her father's pocket and she began chewing on it. The little girl liked alternate puffs from her cigar with licks of her lollipop" --and this is the

part I'd like to emphasize, Madam Speaker --"Her doctor says that cigars won't hurt her." Now I realize that this little news

article deals with cigars and not cigarettes and we can't blame advertising for whatever example this might set to our children, but I must say that I was surprised at the comments of this little girl's doctor. I thought that I should take seriously the advice that the Minister of Health gave us the other evening and thought that I should look around, if I was unable to quite smoking, for an alternative, or a substitute for tobacco. Now-- (Interjection) --no, I didn't start drinking.

There are people who find a substitute in candy, but we're told that candies are bad for the teeth and our dentists take a dim view of this. Some when they quit smoking they choose as their substitute eating, and we are advised by our medical advisors that even eating is bad for the health. However, there is another alternative which I found in a tobacco store one day on which I could find no medical evidence of bad effects and this is commonly called "snoose". The Honourable Member for St. George mentioned it just a moment ago.

Now the label that I saw in the tobacco store says: "Copenhagen satisfies", and then on the side of the box it says: "The tobacco chew that men like best". Well after having bought this box I consulted with some of the members of the House --no names, no pack drill --as to how one would go about using this stuff and I was told by these veterans - (Interjection) --no, this is Copen­ hagen. - that the idea is that you get a pinch of this in between your fingers and you put it in your lower lip and lo and behold you get the same effect or the same satisfaction as you would if you smoked a cigarette.

However, after having smelled this stuff,. Madam Speaker, and after having just tasted a little wee bit on the end of my tongue, I am afraid that I didn't have the nerve to put a chew of it in my mouth. · Then I am told, or was told by these same veterans of the "snoose" box, that there was another way of taking this material. They told me that if you take your hand like this and crook your thumb you have a little hollow in here and you take a little pinch and put it into the hollow, then you sniff it up your nose.

Now this looked rather challenging so three other members of this House and myself one evening after we adjourned decided that we would try this method of taking this substitute for tobacco.

Madam Speaker, I can assure you that I don't recommend it to those that aren't used to it, because our reward for endeavouring to take this material in that manner was a sneezing bout for about one hour and we thought that we'd never quit sneezing. ·So I'm afraid that despite the fact that I took the advice of the Minister of Health seriously, that I cann ot adopt this as a substitute for cigarettes, and any­ body that wants to buy a box of partially used Copenhagen Snuff can have it at a very cheap price.

Now, Madam Speaker, this has been in a little lighter vein than some of the other re­ marks on this resolution. I don't think that does any harm, but I want to assure the Honour­ able Member from Wellington and the Honourable Member from Assiniboia and the Honourable Member from Seven Oaks who have resolutions and amendments on this resolution, that I really don't mean to poke fun at their resolutions. I know that they are serious about what April 23rd, 1963 Page 1549

(Mr. Groves, cont'd) ••• , • they are trying to do and I can assure them that I do support the efforts which they are making to just try and not encourage smoking amongst oor children and try in some undetermined manner to have our advertisers of tobacco not direct their advertis- ing primarily at our younger people. Thank you. · MR.

FR OESE: Madam Speaker, I am a non-smoker and I have never acquired the habit, so .I don't know what smoking really is, and therefore if I might give some advice -- I don't know whether it would be practical or not -- it always seems to me that most people that do smoke and want to quit and can't quit, that there's just a lack of will-power and that this is the sole obstacle in the way. I am in a position where I feel that I'd support the resolution at hand, but I don't know whether it's practical or not.

We can state our stand as being opposed to the use of any advertisements, but who is going to bring this into being or in effect? Has this Legislature jurisdiction in this matter or does this have to be referred to some other jurisdic­ tion? Probably some of the members who have more experience or more knowledge in this matter could advise us to that effect. MR . PATR ICK: Madam Speaker, I think this amendment is worthy of consideration be­ cause -- (I nterjection) -- Oh, I can't? MR . PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, I think maybe I should say a word or two on this.

I think that it has been indicated that insofar as this group is concerned, and I think maybe inso­ far as the whole House is concerned, that this is just a matter of personal opinion and that Party politics does not enter into a resolution of this nature.

I hope this is so anyway, Madam Speaker, because I have heard from some of the. remarks of my colleagues and they've been three diff erent ways and maybe I'm going to go a fourth diff erent way. !_wonder, Madam Speaker, whether or not we're being a little facetious in the whole mat­ ter in respect of the resolution itself and also the amendment that we have before us.

Now I somewhat feel as though one who does smoke and one who periodically is enjoined by the Honourable the Minister of Health to take a deep breath to clear my lungs, possibly as the re­ sult of smoking, should properly say something in respect of this amendment that we have be­ fore us, because after all what does the amendment say? "Therefore

be it resolved that this House request the Minister of Education to instruct all school principals, teachers, athletic coaches, to stress to the Manitoba school children and college students the harmful effects of smoking and that health and physical education programs should include definite reference to the harmful effects of smoking." Imagine, Madam Speake:�; the principal of a school or the coach of an athletic group in the institution with a cigarette dangling out of the corner of his mouth, telling those ·in his charges, "Don't you smoke, look what it did to me -- cough, cough." I don't" think that we are approaching this subject realistically at all.

I think it's very well, Madam Speaker, for us here in this Legislature to stand up and say don't you do what I'm doing. I think in the final analysis that unless all of us in the House show by example to the people of Manitoba what they shouldn't do by not doing it ourselves, nothing is really going to be achieved by a resolution of this nature. I for one, Madam Speaker, am not going to support either the resolution as originally suggested by the Honourable Member for Wellington or the amendment by the Honourable Member-for Assiniboia becanse I happen to be one of the addicts of the weed.

I might say that I do try to say to my children, "Now don't you do what the old man has done because you may wake up every morning barking your fool head off like the old man does. " -- but at the same time, until such time as I'm prepared to stop, until such time as all of the school principals, all of the school teachers and the athletic coaches are prepared to stop smoking, I don't think that it's up to us in this. Legislature to suggest that the Minister of Education stress to them· that they should say to the pupils that they shouldn't do it.

The amendment that we have before us wipes out insofar as I'm concerned one of the most important parts of the original resolution, namely that of the direction in advertising to the younger people. But even in the original resolution dealing with the question of advertising, the sponsor of the original resolution was off-base because this Legislature has no jurisdiction over the question of advertising insofar as tobacco or its products are concer�ed. What differ­ ence does it make if we of this Legislature did oppose that portion of the original resolution which dealt with the question of advertising?

There's nothing we can do about it anyway. We certainly can insofar as advertising of liquor is concerned, but we can't do it insofar as tobacco is concerned. This is solely within the jurisdiction of the federal authorities. It's well for us Page 1550 April 23rd, 1963

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ••• •• to be puritans in this Legislature I suggest, Madam Speaker, but unless we can put teeth iD.to our puritanism, I suggest resolutions of the nature of this are abso­ lutely ridiculous.

So I say as far as I'm personally concerned, Madam Speaker, I'm going to vote against the amendment and subsequently will vote against the resolution, because while it may be de­ sirable, while medical science has at least through its advance, through the media of X-rays been able to delve more closely and more concisely into the human body than it did 20 years ago through X-ray and the likes of that, I don't think that there has been any case established that there has been any real increase insofar as lung cancer or any other deficiency as the re­ sult of smoking today than there was 50 or 60 years ago.

I think the only difference is that due to the advancement in medical science that di agnosis is far better than it was before. I think I recall talking of athletes.

If I recall correctly, there was a great Frenchman in the great Province of Quebec --or was it New Brunswick - by the name of Louis Fierre who could pick up about i4 tons more than any other man in the whole "countree" --(Interjec­ tion) --well, it is Icelandic I guess insofar as my honourable friend is concerned, but as I re­ call it, the history of this great man of French ancestry--down in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia --who was the greatest athlete insofar as weight lifting was concerned in the whole of the Dominion of Canada at that time and whose record has not been surpassed insofar as ath­ letic prowess is concerned, could lift up about 14 ton more, as the story goes, than any other man and then sit down and smoke about two boxes. of cigars in celebration of his great event.

Now I wonder very much whether it's not more the question of the chemical make-up of the body, and maybe my honourable friend the Minister of Health can instruct me on this, that is the factor which ascertains as to whether or not smoking is harmful. But I do say in all seriousness, Madam Speaker, I think it is ridiculous for us in this House to attempt to legis­ late by regulations, or by resolutions as we have before us today, as to whether or not we should smoke or whether our children should smoke.

I think that if we're not prepared, each and every one of us in the Legislature to show by example, the better thing to do would be to wipe these resolutions off the Order Paper and get down to the real business of Manitoba. MR . JOHNSON: Madam Speaker, I would like to just say a few remarks with respect to this whole matter if I may. At the time of my estimates I took that opportunity to indicate to the House the importance being laid upon this whole subject of smoking by the official medical bodies of this Dominion and Province, and also the attitude of the Public Health people the world over.

I don't think any one of us in this Chamber can dispute the very factual information which has come to light scientifically and left beyond any shadow of a doubt in the minds of the official medical bodies, as I say, and individual physicians today, the definite proof that there is a relationship between cigarette smoking and cardiac and pulmonary disease, notably can­ cer, which is our great enemy of middle age.

However, I guess, as the Leader of the NDP pointed out, we all have the right to die the way we choose, in the sense that if we want to follow habits which will lead us there sooner or lead us into trouble sooner, as I tried to point out in a little statement I made to the honourable members pointing out the incidence of cancer in the last few years in our own province, this is a matter of personal wisdom.

It isn't up to me --or I don't think any of us can, as the Lead­ er of the NDPParty has said, teach an old dog new tricks, but I think we can, and it is incum­ bent upon us in this Legislature and in this Province in the Department of Public Health, to do what we can to bring the very latest attitudes and knowledge, as much as possible, to the atten­ tion especially of the younger people of Manitoba. I have been afraid to walk down the street without a red face with all the publicity concerning my own personal habit.

I want to make it perfectly clear that in the House when asked if I had quite smoking I said, "I certainly hope to." We'll see how I make out, and I hope to reach my mark. However, I do feel that--of course, a lot of kids started in the attic and I'd hate to think that as Minister I'll have to start sneaking up to the attic for a cigarette now at my age. However, I might just facetiously point out to the Honourable Member from St.

Vital that he was referring to the anatomical snuff box which you create by ex tending your thumb, called the snoose box, and ''vell" known to the Icelanders and the "Svedes" in this province, and the reason we got into it was we could only get tobacco and booze for our fish for so many centuries up in those far northern wilds. But it's interesting to me when I heard today that one time in April 23rd, 1963 Page 1551

(Mr. Johnson, cont'd.) • , • this Legislature there used to be a bar in the Legislative Build­ ing. Then the evils of alcohol, etc., came to light and the honourable members of the Legis­ lature showed their concern for doing the right thing in the Province of Manitoba, so possibly this is just in the evolution of things.

However, I just want to say this categorically to the committee, as I tried to indicate previously and I won't be long, for the past year our department has been concerned as to the role which the Department of Health should play in bringing to the younger people .and to the people of Manitoba the evidence with respect to the relationship of smoking and other diseases, It's long been known, for example, that heavy smokers have increased arterial spasms, and this has been. evident to any practising physician, that is the vascular relationship, But the fight against cancer, of course, and the evidence presented to date linking cancer with smok­ ing which cannot be refuted in the light of present day knowledge, we have to accept and the old fellows will have to take their chances.

However, our Director of Health and the . Deputy Minister -- I have already asked them to . draw up for the coming year under the Health Education Program a very positive approach and bring a program to the department as to how we can most effectively, using our audio visual aids and the resources of health education, tackle this problem, Within the City school system our present Director of Health, who was Assistant Deputy in the City, along with local specia­ lists gave leadership in this area.

I wa.uld also point out that it is interesting that in the past month I have read most inter­ esting and challenging articles written by local medical men, local specialists in medicine and surgery, writing in the local Manitoba journals of the problem before us and voicing their en­ dorsation of those measures which will lead to an appreciation by the public of the cancer prob­ .lem, I think that also I can report to the committee that both at the National Hospital Advisory meeting and at the Dominion Council of Health meetings, to which the Deputy Minister has left today, these deputies have been asked to bring the whole matter up again at their Council and share possible programs with the other deputy ministers of other provinces, and we hope this will enhance our program locally.

Also, for the past year this province has been planning to host the Canadian Public Health Association who are meeting here at the end of May. Outstand­ ing speakers from all over the world will be brought here and the keynote address to be given by one of the speakers on the 27th of May here in Winnipeg at this conference where we, as I say, are the host province this year, the keynote address will be "Smoking and Lung Cancer." I would hope to distribute a

summary of that meeting to the honourable members of the commit-. tee. However, I just wanted to report these facts to the committee and I don't think that we, in light of the scientific evidence before the official body of medicine, should get into the pros and cons of it here, and I think that as long as we know the facts of the matter, it is a matter I feel of personal wisdom to older people. Certainly I am personally of the opinion that ex­ amples in the home are not always followed by the children.

For. instance, the children of Ministers seldom. go into the ministry; the children of physicians seldom go out into the coun­ try to practise medicine. I happen to be the son of an athlete that I think was one of Manitoba's better lacrosse players, and he never smoked in front of me until I was around 25 years old, and said there was no time for an athlete to smoke. Now if you want to smoke you don't play sports.

I think this is probably the opinion of the Member for Assiniboia, who is an athlete in his own right, and I think this is the attitude they take; However, the pulmonary cripples will continue, otherwise I guess we wouldn't need physicians in the Province of Manitoba. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Welling- ton. MR. EVANS: Madam Speaker, I think I would be right in saying that if the Honourable Member speaks he is closing the debate.

MADAM SPEAKER: Anyone wishing to speak on the debate may do so. MR. M. E. McKELLAR (Souris-Lansdowne): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Hamiota, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. Page 1552 April 23rd, 1963

MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Gladstone. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. The Honourable Member is closing the debate. MR. SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, I will attempt to be very brief on this one because I know that most of the members are anxious to get into the Committee of Supply so that they'll be able to have a smoke, and I'll not try and hold them up any longer than I can. Madam Speaker, I was indeed happy to have the Honourable Member for Gladstone on April.9th last nearly second my resolution. A MEMBER: Gladstone?

You've been smoking too much! MR. SHOEMAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon, pardon me, Madam Speaker, it was this Copenhagen snuff I think that got the best of me h�re. It's powerful stuff. Now the Honourable Member for Brandon certainly sympathizes with me and all the mem­ bers of our group. He realizes that it would be very advantageous not only to us but to mem­ bers of the government to have the annual reports mailed out to us well in advance of the ses­ sion, in fact the resolution before us requests that within three months of the termination of the fiscal year, so that would be New Year's Day.

The Honourable Member has suggested that he thinks this is quite possible in most cases and I agree with him on that one. I have before me several of the reports and on most of the reports the front page is nothing more nor less than a letter that is directed to the minister in charge of the department and signed by the chairman. Some of them are dated; I note that some of them are not dated. The Manitoba Water Supply Board by the Chairman, Mr.

Grlffiths, addressed to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture and Cons ervation just states that he has the honour of presenting the second annual report for the year ending March 31st, and that matter is dated November 30th. I have before me The Manitoba Development Fund. They've left the date off. I think if we could get a peek at the original letter that was enclosed there would probably be a date on it, but they've left the date off of that one. The Department of Public Works.

There's a date on it, that is the enclosing letter, dated December 10, 1962 • The Manitoba Hydro, of which my honourable friend the Member for Brandon I believe is a Director, they're very efficient. Their enclosing letter with the annual report is dated July 25, 1962. Public Accounts -- a very important document. The enclosing letter, and it's addressed to His Honour, signed by the First Minister, Acting Provincial Treasurer: "the undersigned has the honour to present the Public Accounts for the Province of Manitoba for the year ending 31st of March, 1962, and that letter is dated November 28th.

So - (Interjection) -- that's all, that's the letter --unless my honourable friend wanted me to read the Public Accounts, and we'll be in that next week probably. Now, Madam Speaker, what I have attempted to do is to prove that the annual reports are ready to be presented in about November, December, some of them as early as July, so that the request certainly is not unreasonable.

The Honourable Member for Brandon has suggested that he has spoken to the men in charge of most of the departments and they have assured him that they are quite willing to co-operate in this regard and see that we do get these reports, well, within three months or prior to three months before the session --.before the end of the fiscal year.

In order to co-operate with my honourable friend and the government, because there's no question about it, he was speaking for. the government, I, Madam Speaker, with the leave of the House, would wish now to delete the last paragraph only, because my honourable friend has suggested that he is quite prepared to go along with everything except the last para­ graph, and I would like to withdraw just the last paragraph only so that we will be able to bene­ fit every member of the House and get these reports when it would be most beneficial to us and in accordance with the request in the resolution. MR. R. 0.

LISSAMAN (Brandon): Madam Speaker, on a point of privilege; I don't think I referred in my address anywhere to a three-month period. If I recall correctly, and I haven't Hansard at hand, was that I had the commitment from the ministers that these reports would be mailed to the members as they became available. Now that still might not coincide with the three-month period so I wouldn't like to take on that responsibility personally, because I only had the commitment from the ministers that they would mail them to members in advance of the House sitting and when they became available to the ministers.

So I wouldn't want the April 23rd, 1963 Page 1553

(Mr. Lissaman, cont'd.) ••. Member from Gladstone to feel that by deleting simply the last paragraph it would make his resolution necessarily acceptable to the government, because of course beyond the commitment that I received, I can't speak for the government, Madam Speaker. MR . EVANS: Madam Speaker, I wonder if I could be clear on what the point is now. Has the honourable member attempted to move a motion that the last paragraph of the resolu­ tion be deleted?

If so, I would take the ground that an honourable member can scarecely amend his own motion of which notice has already been given as appears on the Order Paper. MR . SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, I asked by leave of the House to withdraw the last paragraph only -- by leave of the House to withdraw the last paragraph only so that it would be acceptable to the government. MR.

EVANS: If my honourable friend could find someone to move an amendment to his motion encompassing whatever he wishes to do-- (Interjection) --well, that being the case, it seems constitutionally impossible to me to effect a change in the resolution that has been de­ bated to this point, and my honourable friend is certainly closing the debate on the motion as he originally placed it in notice and as it originally came on the Order Paper. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Gladstone cannot withdraw any por­ tion of the proposed resolution or amend his own resolution.

He would have to withdraw the entire resolution. Which is his wish? MR. CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, my suggestion is, that by leave of the House, any­ rule can be abridged, and what the honourable member asked was that by leave of the House leave be given to withdraw the last paragraph of his resolution.

Now I am aware that the usual procedure in this House is to withdraw the resolution, but my honourable friend's point was that he had received a suff icient undertaking with regard to the first part, and gathering that the second part was objectionable to the government, that he asked the leave of the House to withdraw the last paragraph of the resolution. MR. EVANS: .•.••• can give no undertaking that we would accept that on this side of the House, on the ground that all the other honourable members who have addressed them­ selves to this question have done so with that other paragraph in it.

They might or might not have wished to change their stand in this House had that other paragraph been deleted. So I for one could not feel justified in going along with that suggestion. MR . PETERS: Madam Speaker, I would like to make a suggestion that you take it under advisement, that the member has asked "by leave". ' MADAM SPEAKER: I'd like to address your attention to the fact that I believe when he withdraws the last paragraph he is really amending his motion, and the honourable member cannot amend his own motion. I therefore think that my ruling would be that the resolution stands as is.

Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. MR. SHOEMAKER: Yeas and Nays, please, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members. The question before the House is the pro­ posed resolution of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. A standing vote was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Barkman, Campbell, Cherniack, Desjardins, Froese, Gray, Guttorm­ son, Harris, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Johnston, Molgat, Patrick, Paulley, Peters, Schreyer, Shoemaker, Smerchanski, Tanchak, Vielfaure and Wright. NAYS: Messrs.

Alexander, Beard, Bilton, Bjornson, Carron, Cowan, Evans, Hamn� ton, Harrison, Hutton, Jeannotte, Johnson (Gimli), Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McKellar, McLean, Martin, Mills, Moeller, Roblin, Seaborn, Smellie, Stanes, Steinkopf, Strickland, Watt, Weir, Witney and Mrs. Morrison. MR . CLERK: Yeas, 21; Nays, 30. MADAM SPEAKER: I declare the motion lost. The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR .

PATRICK: Madam Speaker, since the Honourable Minister for Public utilities introduced the highway safety program in his estimates the other day, I wish to have leave of the House to withdraw the resolution. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Page 1554 April 23rd, 1963

(Madam Speaker, cont'd) ••••• Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks. The Honourable the Minister of Health. MR. JOHNSON: Madam Speaker, I wish to commend the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks for his continuing interest in the developm'ent of air ambulance services. He brought this matter up you will recall a few years ago. The whole question of course of ambulance and air ambulance services is being brought more and more into focus during this second half of the twentieth century by the mounting toll of highway accidents resulting from high-speed motor traffic.

This is a topic which I am sure every member can find personal identification, and this government, I would like to point out in my remarks, has not been unmindful of the whole problem. I feel when one considers the question of air ambulance in Manitoba, two separate and distinct areas must be reviewed, and I refer to northern Manitoba in the Pre-cambrian Shield and to the southern settled portion of the province. I would like to deal with these separately because I feel one almost has to look at it with this division.

Firstly, regarding the north, this really came to this government's attention of course as one of our first new developments was the introduction of Northern Health Services, and I've .described this program on several occasions in the House and how proud we are of the way this has functioned. This is outlined in the review of activities which I distributed in the House, indicating the kind of activities there. There is information there and of course in our annual report.

Our first assignment at that time to the new director was to visit every settlement north of 53; to review, with the people and the agencies in the area, health services and health needs. It soon became apparent that few of these smaller groups and smaller communities had any or­ ganized plan for medical emergencies, that is, sudden severe illness and accidents, and as a consequence when a medical disaster struck, valuable priceless time was being lost.in getting treatment to the patient or the patient to treatment, and one by one, working with the people themselves, community plans were developed.

Drug depots were developed; a roster of qualified and experienced residents was set up; and a review of communications was developed and finally transport was studied. The latter, I might add, included considerations for special weather situations, break-up, etcetera. I would point out to the committee that at that time the Indian Health Services had a health service in the north and this Northern Health Services was formed to complement that service, and they had the same attitude as that which I will point out when we discuss air ambulances.

As a result of the exer.cise of having a full-time team in the north, we became aware really for the �irst time of the amazing network of radio, radio-telephone, telephone and tele­ graph that have come into existence throughout the north, both in the hands of government and commercial agencies, plus the resources of the Hudson's Bay, for example, stations in the north, Indian Affairs stations and so on. When trouble strikes the north the north reacts like a family, and I would cite fascinating stories of how messages for help or guidance have been relayed along using these various resources.

I mention the word "guidance" because I would like to take the honourable members to the radio base operated by the Manitoba Government Air Service at Grace Lake, The Pas, and there leaf through some of the radio traff ic reports. Injury and sickness in remote points commands a considerable volume of this traffic. When the query is encountered, the Northern Health Services Director or one of the doctors in The Pas is contacted and there continues an interchange of signs and symptoms from the bush, and first aid and general medical advice in return.

This kind of service is very reassuring to the residents in isolated areas and has down through the years saved many lives. I've said we were amazed at the communication resources in the north, the complexity of them, and when we came to study air transport we were surprised again.

A review for in­ stance made late in 1961 indicated the following bases: at The Pas -- Lamb Airways with five aircraft, Manitoba Government Air Service with three aircraft and Trans-Air; Wobowden -­ •• ••••••••• Airways, Trans-Air; Norway House -- Trans-Air, Manitoba Government Air Service; llford, Ilford Airways; Thompson --Lamb, Trans-Air; Flin Flon, Snow Lake -­ Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting; Lynn Lake -- Trans-Air, Fish Company planes; Churchill -- RCAF and Trans-Air.

I have said that in the face of medical disaster the north acts as a family, and there is no finer camaraderie of this kind than the men who fly in the bush, as we all know, our bush April 23rd, 1963 Page 1555

(Mr. Johnson, cont'd) •••.• pilots. Time and again these men, on mercy flights , have per­ foi:n.:ied miracles. For these reasons the Director of Northern Health Services, and the many C.�tizens of the north we have polled consistently, recommend that the continued use of the planes of all operators, including Manitoba Government Air Service, is far more versatile li#d useful than could be provided by a centrally located air ambulance service.

To quote one of the Director's reports, he says, "We are in almost. constant radio communication with radio centres throughout the north and the most conveniently located plane can be despatched. In special cases we can utilize the Search and Rescue Wing of RCAF involving Winnipeg or Churchill based helicopters if circumstances warrant. We have provided our personnel with emergency equipment to be placed in planes carrying extremely ill patients who. might require oxygen, etcetera.

" I think as Manitobans we can be proud of the arrangements in northern Manitoba and of the superb consideration and co-operation we have earned, not only from the Government Air Service but from commercial aircraft operators as well. In the light of these circumstances, we do not believe that a government ambulance service as contemplated by the honourable member in that area should supersede the facilities that are in existence and the program which is operating so successfu lly, .utilizing the tremendous communication and transport system in the north.

Now southern Manitoba is another problem, and in considering the ambulance service time is of course the most precious ingredient. Years ago before the development of our ex­ cellent grid of all-weather, all-season roads, the delay of surface transport may have been a problem. It is really not so today. Last summer the Associated Hospitals of Manitoba raised the possibility of a government air service for Manitoba. This question came up in one of the resolutions.

In November of last year I acknowledged this suggestion and frankly admitted to them that I did not possess the precise data upon the need for such a development which I thought they may have. I suggested to them that they may undertake on my behalf through their member hospitals a study of the number and nature of ·cases they encounter during a year that might, in their judgment and that of their medical staffs, have benefi ted had an air ambulance service been available. This study has been going on now for six months and I have received an interim report upon the replies being received from the hospitals·.

It is already evident that there is actually very little interest in air ambulance on the part of the Manitoba hospitals , and the medical staff of many have concurred in this regard. This is interesting. The members of the House, as pointed out by the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks bef ore, will be aware that Saskatchewan has since 1946 operated a government air ambulance service in the southern part of that province.

I might point out to the honourable members thatin the north they utilize much the same kind of operation as we do, and they rely on the government air service and commercial carriers just as we do here. As I have said, in '46 this may have been a good idea in Manitoba also. However, in 1963 , I feel that people who should be most interested and knowledgeable actually don't show great interest.

However , as the Hospital Association completes their report, it may very well be that there are several areas in the province where such an air ambulance seems to be indicated, particularly to transport their severely ill or injured cases to Winnipeg, and these situations will be care­ fully studied by the department in the light of full information. I should tell honourable members that we are looking at this whole problem of surface ambulance very carefully -- the whole situation.

The RCMP made a survey for the depart­ ment in 1959 which showed at that time that there were few spots in southern Manitoba as I have defi ned it, south of 53 ,·w hich were over 30 miles from a resource of an ambulance. We feel that the service requires in many cases better standards, better communications and better trained operators.

Because this activity is really now so closely related to hospital activity, some months ago I asked the Hospital Commission to review all the material I had on this subject, submissions to the Royal Commissions by various groups, notably the medical professio n, and all the material that I could get through the RCMP, and I of course will send on to them the results of the Associated Hospitals study. My idea was that the Commission themselves, in talking about the whole matter of inte­ grated hospital systems, said they were most anxious to review the material we had.

Again concurrently with this, at the first meeting of the new Manitoba Health Council, I have Page 1556 April 23rd, 1963

(Mr. Jobnson, cont'd) ••• •• requested that they too review all the material and information which I have been able to accumulate -- or with the department. This I think will be a good combination because on this Health Council you have lay personnel, medical men, and amongst the lay fold are municipal men. When they have both reviewed it independently I think we should bring the Commission, Associated Hospitals and Health Council together in the coming year. As I said earlier on opening these remarks, we are not unmindful of the whole problem of ambulance service.

In the north we have one situation; in the southern part of Manitoba, Swan ;River south, we have another. I am proud of the activity and the role which the Depart­ ment of Health has played in the understanding and the development of these services in the north and the attitude they are taking towards the study and the further development of an am­ bulance service for the southern part of the province. Looking at this resolution in view of this, I can't support the resolution as a multi- pronged attack to the problem.

As I have indicated, I think that for the southern half of the province we should await these most interesting developments and studies by the groups involved. I really don't feel that we can divorce the development of ambulance services from the creation of hos­ pital facilities in the province -- something that's going to have to be related in the future -- and I also feel we have considerable amount of information and background now. I don't want the Honourable Member from Seven Oaks to feel that his resolution is receiving the repudiation of ourselves.

I think that in the evolution of health services in the province we are, and should in the not too distant future, come to an over-all plan of action . MR. MARK G.

SMERCHANSKI (Burrows): I'd like to say a few words in support of the Honourable Minister of Health in that he is so right in that our northern part of Manitoba is literally dotted with outlets of radio-telephone communications, such as you have at the Hudson Bay posts; every fishing camp has their own radio- telephone now ; every prospecting camp; every trapping camp; every RCMP detachment; every Indian Agent depot; then of course all your Natural Resources people such as in the Forestry and the Games Branch.

You have also on call on a 24-hour basis the RCAF Rescue Arm in Winnipeg, and you might also be very much interested that there is no less than, I think, 15 amateur radio operators in the Greater Winnipeg area who are constantly in touch with various locations in the north. An outstanding example is our own Chief of Police, Robert Taft. He has an amateur radio set in his basement and I for one have communicated with him fr om points like Island Lake and God's Lake on various occasions .

There is no end of this type of communication made available through the northern parts. of our province, with the result that whenever anybody is in any difficulty you go on to an SOS signal , and if you are not able to get sufficient signals to go through on voice you can always go on "T", and this enables you to go through on any one of these connections. You would be amazed at the almost electric shock that exists when there is an emergency develops in imy part of the north.

Of course you have the RCAF; you have the various air transports who operate in the north, such as the Hudson Bay Air Transport, Trans- Air, and others that the Honourable Minister has mentioned; and you will find that an aircraft will be despatched at the earliest possible moment.

If it is an emergency and the aircraft is not able to go through because of weather, then there is always the possibility of getting the doctor either at Gimli or at Lac du Bonnet or at The Pas, or at Lynn Lake, to come on the air and he will give instruc­ tions over the air to the source where the accident has taken place until they are able to re­ move this patient to the hospital.

Consequently, I do not feel that we need to even think of establishing a similar type of air ambulance service that is in existence in Saskatchewan and with which too I am very well acquainted, having operated in the northern parts of Saskatchewan.

Now coming back to the southern parts of the province, here again we do have a very ef­ ficient unknown service in the form of two or three industrial or private aircraft enterprises who also have small aircraft, who are also tied in into a radio frequency that pretty well covers or is able to service the SOS frequency, and they too are in constant touch with any part of Manitoba and they are able to send or despatch an aircraft almost to the southern parts of the province.

Now in addition to this, the RCAF Rescue Arm has on tap two helicopters which they can call on at a moment's notice, and I think that with this type of a service they can cover any vital part of Manitoba in case of an emergency. I dare say that they can now with helicopter April 23rd, 1963 Page 1557

(Mr. Smerchanski, cont'd) ••••• move into an emergency system even at night because of the navigation systems that are in existence now, and with the improvements on radar, there iS no problem in getting to most any part of the southern part of the province. I think that if these conditions are made available or are known by the people that may have to call on them, then l think that this type of service is very adequately covered.

I mention this because quite frankly if you are going into a prospecting area or a fishin g area in the north, it is almost a "must" that you do take a radio out with you and you clear your position at least once a day, or certainly once every other day, with a base camp either ·· in The Pas or Gimli or Lac du Bonnet, in order to give proper identification of your where­ abouts and that everything is all right.

It's amazing how, whether it's the Fur .Department or the Game Department of the Natural Resources Arm -- they're not being paid for this, they don't have to do it, but it is a courtesy of the north; it is a courtesy that is acknowledged by anybody who has a radio-telephone in the north; and if you hear somebody trying to contact a station that appears to be dead you take it upon yourself, possibly on the hour and every hour, to go on the air yourself and try and contact the dead station just in case that there might be something wrong.

I think when people who have travelled or worked or lived in th6 north, when they appreciate the excellent coverage that we have got with radio-telephone and the excellent coverage that we have got in case of any unforeseen emergencies, I think that it is more than adequately covered as described by the Honourable Minister. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Gladstone, thatthe debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote•. declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for St. George. MR . GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gladstone:

Whereas any cattle shippers to the Winnipeg Stockyards believe that their cattle undergo a period of starvation which results in excessive shrinkage with resultant loss to the shipper and cruelty to the animals, therefore

be it resolved that this House recommends that scales be provided in the stockyards so that cattle may be weighed when unloaded, there­ by making it possible to determine what shrinkage occurs in cattle between the time of un­ loading and the time of sale. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . . GUTTORMSON: Madam Speaker, the resolution is really self-explana tory. When far mers ship their cattle to the yards and sometimes there is a delay of several days between the unloading and the sale, farmers believe that cattle are not being fed properly and some believe that they are being mistreated.

This is a constant complaint. The far mers believe that if a scale was located at the yards enabling the cattle to be weighed when they are unloaded and then weighed when they were sold, they would have an idea what shrinkage is involved be­ tween that time.

Now I am not suggesting for a moment that these animals are being starved, but I know that the farm ers suspect that they are being mistreated,· and it is generally felt that if a scale was set up at the yards the farme rs would be in a better position to know what the situation was and they would be satisfied themselves then whether their suspicions were well founded or not. MR. BILTON: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, that the debate be adjourned.

Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. • • • • • • • • Continued on next page Page 1558 April 23rd, 1963

MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Lakeside. MR . CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains , that the ruling of Mr. Speaker of February 21st, 1961, on the question of an amendment referring the report of a special committee back to the committee for further con­ sideration, be reversed by this House, and that this House declare that its practice shall not present a report, even if it is a final report, of either a special or a standing committee being referred back to be amended.

Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . CAMPBE LL: Madam Speaker, I have always been interested in the rules of the House and I have always taken the position that the rules should be the servant of the House rather than their masters. I have tried to avoid being technical about them, but I feel that they are for the protection of the members of the House as well as for the expedititon of the business of the . government, and consequently that a strict adherence to them is advisable from all points of view and that a thorough understanding of them is conducive to strict adherence to them .

And when, on this occa sion that 's referred to in the motion, I moved that a report of a special com­ mittee be referred back to the committee for further consideration, the ruling of Mr. Speaker of that day was that this motion was not in order, the committee having ceased to exist with its first, and in that case, final report. The situation arose in this way, We had had a special committee sitting on the -- I believe it was the one on The Election Act. My honourable friend, the present Minister of Municipal Affairs, was the Chairman.

When he presented the report on the date that is mentioned and moved concurrence in it, I ma de this motion that I refer to. It is found on Page 92 of Febru­ ary 20, 1961. The motion was as follows: "Mr. Speaker, I move an amendment, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Ethelbert Plains, that the report of the com mittee be not now concurred in but that it be referred back with instructions that Clause C of Subsection (1) of

Section 8 of The Elections Act be further considered, 11 That was The Elections Act that the committee had been sitting on. At that time, in fact immediately, the Honourable the Attor­ ney-General raised the question of the point of order. His remarks will be found on Page 92 of February 20, 1961 Hansard. And the Attorney-General raised this point of order saying that he thought that the reference could not be ma de back to the committee.

I had as usual a few re ­ ma rks to ma ke on the point of order, because I had spent a little time on it before ma king that motion, and I particularly referred in my remarks, which you will find on the same Page 92 -- I particularly referred to our own rule 73 -- 73 that you find in our own rule book here.

I would say at this point that it is my experience from a long time in this House, that if the honourable members would try and acquaint themselves with our own rule book rather than us­ ing Beauchesne and Bourinot and May and other authorities so extensively, that we would find that a good many, at least, of these cases are covered by our own rules.

The point I was try­ ing to ma ke then and reiterate now is that where our own rule applies, Beauchesne, Bourinot, May and any or all of the rest, have no applic ation, because our own rules are conclusive and decisive; and it 1s only in cases where our own rules do not apply that we go to those other auth­ orities. And I had been at pains on that occasion to read Rule 73 found on Page 30 of our own rule book, which is as follows -- and by the way, Madam Speaker, the heading of this

section is

Chapter 8, beginning on Page 28, and it's "Standing and Special Commi ttees -- Witnesses. " There are on� paragraph and then a whole page and then a few rules, and 73 says: 11A report from a committee shall not be amended by the House, but it may be referred back to the com­ mittee, 11 which to me seemed to be so plain that there wasn't much argument to it. But the Honourable the First Minister, as well, gave quite a dissertation on the subject matter admit­ ting that it was not an easy point to deal with, and his remarks. also will be found beginning on Page 92 of that same Hansard.

And then I again had something more to say and the Speaker quite properly took the matter under advisement. The next day Mr. Speaker gave his ruling. It will be found on Page 145 of the Hansard of February 21, 1961, and this is Mr. Speaker's ruling: 11Adjourned debate on the proposed reso­ lution" (this is Mr. Speaker speaking) -- "Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell and amendment thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. We had some difficulty with this the other evening and I had a look at April 23rd, 1963 Page 1559

(Mr. Campbell cont1d) .... ... Beauchesne in respect to the advisability of accepting the amend- ment offered by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, and I am prepared at this time to give that ruling. I would refer you to Beauchesne 1s Parliamentary Rules and Forms, Fourth Edition, 1958, Page 236, Citation 286. 11 And this is the quote, although it's not in quotes in Hansard: 11lt is important that a motion for the appointment of a committee should state whether the committee shall report from time to time, or if it should report once.

Without having been ·given such power it will be defunct, but may be revived. Special authority should also be given to sending for persons, papers and records. 11 That's the quote, I think. And then Mr. Speaker 's comment is -- now this is the operative part of it and then a quote again: 11A Select Special Committee ceases to exist on the moment it presents its final report to the House. The report cannot afterwards be sent back to the committee with instructions to amend it in any particular. If further proceedings are desired it is necessa ry to revive the committee.

" I take it that•s the end of the quote, although there are not quotation marks given in here. Then I think this would be the Speaker' s comment: 11That, I would think, substantiates the judgment that I gave the other evening, that the motion of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition is out of order and cannot be entertained by the House. 11 I asked the Speaker, 11Mr. Speaker, may I ask if you have considered the citations that I quoted? 11 because in addition to our own rule I had quoted some Beauchesne citations as well. Mr.

Speaker said he did, "but I feel that this one is more applic­ able to the case and certainly covers it better. 11 I said that I had planned to appeal the ruling if it did not allow me to go on with this, but inasmuch as Mr. Speaker had made his decision I wasn't going to waste the time of the House by appealing the ruling and so I went on to move that the committee be revived and this matter be referred back to it. I haven't even taken the time and trouble to follow through to see what happened that, but I presume that it was voted down. In any case , it's immaterial to the argum ent that I am now examining.

Some little time elapsed -- no, not very long elapsed, just a couple of days -- and I took the occasion to write to the Honourable Roland Mitchener, then the Speaker of the House of Commons, because our rules provide that where a matter is not covered under our own rules -- I' d better state that properly, I think. Page 3, our. general rule, subsection (1): Proceedings in the House and in all Committees thereof shall be conducted in accordance with the rules and with the ses sional and other orders of the Assembly. Subsection (2) .

In all cases for which pro­ vision is not made in the rules or by ses sional or other orders, the usages and customs of the House of Commons of Canada as in force at the time shall be followed so far as they are applic­ able to the Asse mbly.

Sd I took occasion to write to Roland Mitchener, and at this time I wculd like to present a copy of this to my Leader, one for the Leader of the House, one for the Leader of the NDP, and one for the Leader of the Social Credit Party in this House, because I think it's important that this correspondence be before the House -- it will save me perhaps the time of reading all of it - - and I'm quite prepared to lay the original document on the table, the original of course as far as I'm concerned being the copies of my letter; but as is sometimes mentioned here, I would like to have copies made of them if they are laid on the table of the HOuse so that I can have them back so far as the originals are concerned.

I wrote the Honourable Roland Mitchener. I'm sorry to have to take the time of the House to read all of this, but I tried to set the situation out quite fully; ask him for his comments , for his guidance. I did not try to argue the case. I said in my letter -- I said, 11I am sure that Mr. Speaker Harrison will be just as interested as I in your as sistance in this regard,' In my opinion he is making an honest endeavour to interpret and appl y the rules with fairness to all. Perhaps he has already been in touch with you, and if so I heartily agree with him for so doing.

In any case I shall discuss this letter with him before I send it, because I know he will be glad to have your further advice. With kind pers onal regards and thanks in advance for your consideration and help , I am 1Yours truly'. 11 · I was as good as my word in that regard, because I took the letter that I had written to the Speaker of that day and I showed it to him, discussed it with him, told him if he would prefer that I would be quite willing for him to send the letter to Mr. Speaker Mitchener rather than I doing so; but he suggested that he would write Mr.

Mitchener a letter himself, and in due course , in fact the very next day I received a copy of that letter. that Mr. Speaker Harrison wrote to Mr. Mitchener. He told Mr. Mitchener that I had furnished him with a copy of the letter. That was true, but I had done more than that, I had discussed it with him before I sent it to him . Page 1560 April 23rd, 1963

(Mr. Camp bell cont •d) ... ••. And he says in the seco nd paragraph of his letter which is con­ tained there, "I believe Mr. Campbell has fairly set out the problem to you. " Then he says that it appe ared to him that the special commi ttee died on the presentation of its report to the House as cited in Citation so and so, and he asked as I had for Mr � Mitchener •s assis tance in this matter. There 's an acknowledgment from Mr. Mitchener to me on March 7th and a further letter to me on March 16th saying, "In further response to your letter, I enclose a letter which I have just written to Mr .

Speaker Harrison and the notes which I refer to therein which I hope will be of some ass istance ." The copy of the lette r is here to Mr. Speaker Harrison, same date, March 16th, and the letter is "Dear Mr. Speaker Harrison: The Clerk of the House of Commons, Mr. Leon Raymond, who is a good student of our procedure, has been kind enough to prepare some notes on the subject matter of the letters received from yourself and the Hon­ ourable Douglas Campbell. In answering these letters I think I cannot do better than to forward these notes which appear to me to give the correct statement of our practi ce.

" The notes by Mr. Raymond are here and they're quite extensive; I shall not read them in total. Anyone can see them . Perhaps I should read them in total to put them on Hansard. I believe I had better do that, because after all they are the key of this argument. These are the notes that Mr. Raymond enclosed: '' In the matter Stlbmitted by Mr. Speaker Harrison and by Mr.

Camp bell, of the Manitoba Legislature, we have to assume that the report of the Special Committee referred to was a final report or, if not, that the Motion appointing the Com mittee did not provide that the Commi ttee would have power to report from time to tim e, in which case the first report would be tanta­ mount to a final report. I understand also that on the motion for concurrence in such a rep ort Mr . Campbell moved in amendment that the report be referred back to the Commi ttee for fur­ ther consideration. Mr.

Speaker Harrison, basing his decision on Citation 286 of Beauchesne •s 4th Edition, ruled that this amendment was not acceptable to the House, because it would refer the report back for further consideration to a Commi ttee that was dead; and he is of the opinion that an order to reconstitute the comm ittee should have been voted by the House before any matter could be referred to such Com mittee . 1 1Mr. Campbell seem s to disagree with Mr. Speaker Harrison 1s decisi on and it is his view that Citations 321, 322, 32 3 and 32 5 of Beauch esne •s 4th Edition should apply, " I had mentioned that in my letter.

"Citation 286 of Beauchesne •s 4th Edition reads as follows: •It is imp ortant that the motion for the appointment of the com mittee should state whether the committee shall report from time to tim e; for if it should report once without having been given such power, it will be defunct but may be revived. Special authorization should also be given to sending for persons, papers and records . A select special comm ittee ceases to exist on the moment its final report is pres ented to the House. The report cannot afterwards be sent back to the com ­ mittee with instruction to amend it in any particular .

If further procee dings are desired it is necess ary to revive the commi ttee. 1 "This Citation 286 relies for support on two references: (

a) The British Journals of 1850, Volume 105. This entry appears as follows at page 201 of the said Journals : •Ordered, That the Committee on the Tyne River Conservancy; and, Tyne Navigation Bills be revived: -- And that they have leave to sit, and proceed, upon Thursday next, at Twelve of the clock. ' 11 (

b) May's 13th Edition, page 486. The pertinent reference is as follows: •If a commi ttee, at the conclusion of their inquiry, make a final report to the House, the sittings of the committee are assumed to have been closed; and if further proce edings were desired, it would be neces­ sary to revive the comm ittee '. "Dealing with this question, Bourinot states as follows at pages 459 and 460 of his 4th Edi­ tion: •The motion should .... state whether it is necessa ry that the committee should report from time to time.

If the committee should report once without having received the power in question, it will be defunct until revived. "In May's 16th Edition, at page 637, we read as follows: •If a committee, not having power to report from time to time, makes a report to the House, the committe is dissolved, and if further proceedings were desired, it would be necessa ry to revive the commi ttee . ' "The above ref erences would lead us to believe that the ruling of Mr. Speaker Harrison was a proper one and that the amendment moved by Mr. Campbell was out of order. However, I cannot agree with that conclusion.

April 23rd, 1963 Page 1561

�¥r. Camp bell cant 1d) •.•••• .. "Citation 326 of Beauchesne •s 4th Edition, which was not invoked by Mr. Campbell, reads af! follows: •The report of a Standing Committee should be considered final only when it is adopted by the House, because, until then, the House can refer it back to the committee with instruction to amend. it in any particular. 1 "That Citation interprets wrongly or incompletely a decision given by Mr. Speaker Lemieux on May 30, 1928, which will be found at page 3563 of Hansard for that year, in that the Citation should Iiot apply only to Standing Committees but also to Special Committees .

I quote a few extracts from that ruling: '· ••••• under the present circumstances the word 11 final11 should mean that the report should be considered final only when it is adopted by the house , because the house can always refer a report back to a committee with instructions to amend it in any particular.

"A little. further on, the Speaker refers to a final report which had been brought before the House on June 18, 1926, from a Special Committee and which was referred back to such Committee, and he concludes: •So that the practice in the Canadian parliament does not pre­ vent a report, even if it is a final report, of either a special or, better still, a standing corn­ committee, being referred back to be amended. 1 The above ruling by Mr.

Speaker Lemieux to my knowledge has never been challenged, and I suggest it still reflects our practice. 11 In the British House, as will be seen in May•s 16th Edition, at page 642, the governing procedure is stated as follows: •A motion for the recommittal of a report may be made upon the consideration of the report or as a substantive motion •• When a report is thus recommited, the committee, with all its powers, is thereby revived. ' "Therefore, either following the Canadian practice laid down by Mr.

Speaker Lemieux or the practice in the United Kingdom as stated. above (page 642 of May.•s Edition), it is my opinion that the amendment submitted by Mr. Campbell was in order. 11 In concluding, I may add that the second paragraph of Citation 286 of Beauchesne 1s 4th Edition, in my opinion, does not rest on a solid foundation and is in contradiction with the ruling of Mr. Speaker Lemieux and also in contradiction with the quotation taken from May•s 16th Edition at page 642; and also that Citation 326 of Beauchesne •s 4th Edition, which purports to be a

summary or an analysis of the ruling made by Mr. Speaker Lemieux, is incomplete as it should apply to Special Committees as well as to Standing Committees. 11 Madam Speaker, I found it most interesting to go through these notes and to see the con­ clusions that Mr.

Leon Raymond, the Clerk of the House of Commons at Ottawa, had arrived. at, and I think the discourse that he .gives indicates to us how contradictory we can find these various Citations in Beauchesne •s 4th Edition, and it brings me back to the suggestion that I made some little time ago that where we can find the authority in our own rule book, that is the one that we should pay attention to.

It was my contention at the time -- perhaps that is why I was so determined to follow the matter up -- that when we hitve a rule as definite as 73 on Page 30, dealing with the general question of Standing and Special Committees, and it says 11A report from a committee shall not be amended by the House but it may be ref erred back to the committee" that it seemed to me there was no need for going to Beauchesne. But we find that in this case that Mr. Raymond makes it plain that some -of the Citations that are given by Mr. Beauchesne are in his opinion not to be relied on as well.

Now you will have noticed that I did not attempt to gloss over the fact that Mr. Raymond mentions the fact that I did not quote the

section that he found to be the controlling

section in this regard. I didn't quote it for the simple reason that, as you can see by reading this, it re­ fers, in Beauchesne, to Standing Committees, and this was a Special Committee that we were dealing with, but Mr. Raymond makes it plain in these notes that that Citation in Beauchesne incorrectly interprets the decision that the House of Commons at Ottawa is using as its guide.

And so I decided that it was time that this matter was brought before the House so that if the feeling of the House agreed with the position taken by the Clerk Qf the House at Ottawa that we should reverse that decision in order to m ake it plain that our own rule in 73 is correct, and that we should be guided by it, because as Mr. Raymond concludes, on either the practice of the House of Commons of Canada or the House of Commons of the United Kingdom that this is the procedure. So if you have noticed the wording of my resolution you will see that it is drawn exactly Page 1562 April 23rd, 1963

(Mr. Campbell cont1d) ••••• along the lines that Mr. Raymond uses in his paragraph. I left out a few words of his. On page 4 of his letter he gives this statement, being from Mr. Lemieux•s decision - 11So that the practice in the Canadian parliament does not prevent a report, even if it is a final report, of either a special or, better still, a standing committee, being referred back to be amended. 11 I haven't the motion before me at the moment but I believe that I left out the "better still, 11 but outside of that I think I took exactly the wording that Mr. Raym ond uses.

Now as I mentioned in beginning my remarks, I don't think that we gain anything by attempt­ ing tq be too technical on these matters . On the other hand I think it is a mistake for us to allow rulings that we do not agree with to go unchallenged, and by that I do not mean appeal to the House because I think that the House usually backs up the conclusion of -- the decision of the Speaker. But I think that these should be followed through and I think·that if anyone who will read the references that Mr.

Raymond gives and also will follow through the debates in the Han­ sard of the Federal House of that time, they will find it quite interesting. And so in order to get the situation back to the position that I believe it should have been in before according to our own rules, let alone the other, I proposed the amendment here which I believe to be founl. .d upon the facts and the

interpretation that Mr. Raymond gives of Beauchesne and May. MR . ALEXA NDER: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Arthur, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Emerson. MR . JOHN P, TANCHAK (Emerso n): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. George,

Whereas it is desirable to provide an equal educational opportunity for every child in Manitoba attending rural schools, and

Whereas the departmental regulations require a minimum of 35 pupils to qualify for two teacher grants, and

Whereas there are some schools in rural Manitoba with two room facilities, and �ereas teaching of 34 pupil,:; in Grades one to eight by one teacher does not provide an equal opportunity for these children, Therefore

be it resolved that the government consider the advisablity of providing equal educational op­ portunity to the children of rural Manitoba by reducing the minimum enrolment requirements for two teacher grants . Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . TANCHAK: Madam Speaker, I don't think I have to say too much on this resolution as it is quite self-explanatory. I hope I do not get a blast from the Minister as I did the last time I got up.

But what really prompted me to bring this resolution in was not only the constit­ uents in Emerson constituency, but since the ses sion started I had a few letters from other parts of Manitoba who asked me to talk it over with my own group and bring a resolution trying to remedy this problem . Now what I am going to say concerns only rural Manitoba and especially the elementary grades. The Public School Act provides that before a district could employ more than one teach­ er and qualify for more than one teacher grant, the number of pupils actually attending must ex­ ceed 34 pupils.

I think I am correct in stating this. Now this creates a problem in these dis­ tricts. True, the Minister, or anybody, may say that it•s quite negligiblfi', that not too many schools are affected, and I1ll go along with that. But still I say, it doesn't matter how many schools are affected but it's a minority group and there are a few children who do not get an equal educational opportunity.

Some schools have two-room facilities which have been closed -­ some of them -- since divisions were established; in some of these schools there was grade high school teaching carried on, but when the divisions were established some of these rooms were obliged to close. So these school districts have two-room facilities but they have lost their enrolment for various reasons to a point where there are 34 or less pupils attending. Therefore, they do not qualify for more than one teacher grant.

These schools are obliged to engage one teacher to teach 34 -- or in some cases slightly less than 34 - pupils, the teacher teaching Grades one to eight. Now we all know that the school hours, the number of hours in a school day are five hours. If you divide five hours which is 300 minutes by eight, that gives only 37 1/2 minutes per grade per day. Usually there are at least six classes in every grade, so six times eight is 48, and then if you further divide it into the number of minutes you 'll work it out to 6 1/4 minutes per class. Well S 1/4 minutes is April 23rd, 1962 Page 1563

(Mr. Tanchak cont 'd) .•...•. hardly enough for an introduction to a subject. This does not provide equal opportunity for these children. It also creates a hardship on their instructor. He or she is over-worked in comparison with .other teachers in graded schools, and I know that all of us will agree with that. Now since there 's a shortage of qualified teachers -- we haven't been able to overcome that yet -- the teachers can afford to be choosey. Therefore, the district finds it most difficult to engage good qualified teachers and to retain them .

Some of them take a school with eight grades out in the country probably to gain a little experience. They stay a year and then they go oli to greener pastures. I know of two schools about 3 1 / 2 miles apart; one is a one-room school with an enrolment of under 10 -- I am not just sure how many, it could be eight or nine pupils at the pres ent tim e. And there •s another school, a two-room school, 3 1 /2 miles away, with an enrolment of just under 35, in which the teacher is giving instruction to ei ght grades, and the other school has only eight pupils .

I do not think that one teacher teaching eight grades can give these pupils as good an education as they are entitled to. Of course, as you've all heard me before , I am a strong believer in centralization· and also a strong believer in consoli­ dation of elementary schools , and it could be argued that if this regulation was changed it would probably -- it wouldn't be too conducive to consolidation. I agree with that, because they'll say 11 Why consolidate?

We can get two grants and split the classes into two rooms, " and it would not encourage consolidation, but still I will say that until the department takes a more vigorous effort, or stand, to try and consolidate these elementary schools , these children are suffering, and I thilik that the Minister and Department of Education should do somet hing to remedy this situation. --( interjection) -- Pardon? I am favouring consolidation; .I always do; I thilik it 's the best. MR.

McLEAN: Madam Speaker, when I taught school I had nine grades, one to nine inclu­ sive, 29 students in one clas sroom , so that I know the problem as I am ce rtain many other mem­ bers of this House do, to which the Honourable the Member for Emerson has referred in his res olution and in his remarks, and it is certainly a problem.

However, I am sure that he would not wish us to understand that his mathematical time computation is really -- that he re ally be­ lieves in that, because he knows from his own experience that teachers by combining the work of classes and by skilful management -- and it does require some considerable skill -- are able to see that the work is covered, and in many respects rather well covered. Now I have had the unhappy experience that even though in 1959 when we introduced the new

schedule of school grants and at that tinie reduced the number of students required to earn two or three or whatever the number of teacher grants at that time that that reduction took place, that even though a substantial reduction was made -- and I must confess that I was one who thought we had gone a considerable distance -- I have been disappointed by the fact that there still seemed to be just as many people one student under the number required to earn the number of teacher grants that they would like to have .

And so I have come to the rather unhappy view that even though we were to reduce it very close to zero there would always be somebody just one under . You have to draw the line some place and one could make an argument with re­ spect to any number that might be est ablished. I thilik, however, that the honourable the member has made one point which is impo rtant, and I am going to make one other as well, because he has partly answered his own res olution. He has told us -- and I believe him -- that he is a strong believer in centralization and consoli­ dation.

I am not too certain that I would be as strong a believer in centralization,. although I am a believer in consolidation. But I would like to suggest to him that the adoption of the prin­ ciple that •s involved in his res olution here would do the greatest harm to the encouragement of consolidation. Now, he said, 11Well, the Minister and the Department of Education is not doing very much to encourage consolidation, 11 and that 's a matter of argument, and I' m not par­ ticularly concerned to debate it on this occasion.

All I want to say to him, however, is that were we to adopt his p roposal we would thereby make it much more difficult to bring about that degree of consolidation which I am certain he believes to be worthwhile and which cer­ tainly I believe to be worthwhile under proper circumstances . The other thing is this, that one can•t tiliker with the school grant system just in one particular item. If we were to, for example, consider making a change in respect to this one individual item , we would have to consider a revision of the entire grant

schedule because Page 1564 April 23rd, 1963

(Mr. Mcl.ean cont•d) ••.•• this would obviously get it out of line with other groupings of stud­ ents. As a matter of fact, I believe, Madam Speaker, that the problem in this regard is rather more acute in those elementary schools where they have three or four rooms teaching the eight grades, and this is a problem with which I. have struggled to try and determine a new

schedule that would be fair and at the. same time accomplish what we would like to see done. All I want to say is that I believe sincerely that the problem referred to in this resolution is much le'ss serious than the problem with regard to the other, and I confess that I have been unable to devis.e any scheme which would adequatel y deal with tbe second problem which is far more prevalent. There are actually, as· the resolution indicates -- perhaps I am being unfair in say­ ing that -- the resolution says that there are some schools in rural Manitoba with two-room facilities.

Now I endeavoured to get some count of that, Madam Speaker, but was unable to do so. I would like to say to the members of the House, however, that I believe that the number of rural schools with two rooms is quite small -- small in number that is -,- and I believe that in fact any suggested change such as proposed by this resolution would only encourage a number of school districts to build a second room where they now have only one, thereby making it more difficult for us to achieve the degree of consolidation which I think would be worthwhile.

The second point is that there are relatively few schools with as many -- that is few one­ room schools -- with as many as even 30 students, much less 34 or 35; and indeed perhaps the more c'ommon experience is for them to have eight or nine or ten, perhaps twelve students in one -room schools. It is a fact that many of our one-room schools have quite low enrolments, therefore perhaps creating or emphasizing the importance of not tinkering with the grants

schedule in this one particular. For these reasons, Madam Speaker, and recognizing the probl.ems that do develop, I find myself unable to support the resolution which has been proposed by the member for Emerson. MR: SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, I think that the member from Emerson has made a reasonable statement in introducing his resolution. I think the Minister of Education has made an even more reasonable statement in rebuttal. And I would like to say that it would be rather nice to be able to support the member for Emerson.

One is, I am sure, so tempted to look up­ on the one-room school with a good deal of nostalgia; you would like to be able to do something to improve the efficiency of operation of the ungraded elementary school. But I feel, like the Minister of Education, that adopting this resolution would in one ·way or another impede the pro­ gress in the development of elementary education in this province. Furthermore, Madam Speaker, the member is asking here for us to draw a very fine line. He suggests that having one feacher for 34 pupils is not a very good pupil-teacher ratio. He suggests that the ratio be lowered.

And of course no one can argue with that. But where would you draw the line -- at 28 ? It would be as a matter of degree then, somewhat better, but not so tremendously better that it warrants throwing our grant

schedule out of kilter, that it warrants impeding the trend towards consolidation; and like the Minister of Education, l feel that it would be unfortunate if we were to adopt new policy here which would have the effect of impeding the trend toward cons olidation in our Elementary School System. I suppose the ideal would be to have larger school areas, that is to say, to have elementary schools operating in much the same way as is the case with our secondary schools. But this -remains an ideal.

In the interval we look more or less towards consolidation and the effect of this resolution would be to impede that to some degree at least. So, on balance -- and .this is only a matter of on balance -- on balance we do not feel in this group that we would be justified in supporting the resolution. MR. SHOEMAKER: Madam Speaker, if no one else wishes to speak now, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. George, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Inkster. MR. GRAY: Madam Chairman, may I have the permission of the House to have this reso-· lution stand? MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? Agreed. Second reading of Bill No. 82. The Honourable the Member for Elmwood. MR. PETERS presented Bill No. 82,

An Act to amend The Labour Relations Act (2),f or second reading. April 23rd, 1963 Page 1565

Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR. PETERS: Madam Speaker, to me it is with a feeling of regret that I have to at this time bring in a bill of this nature. At the last session of the Legislature we had two very contro­ versial bills before us . Ore was on the Time Sale Agreement; the other an amendment to The Labour Relations Act. ·They went through the respective committees that they were supposed to go through, and the one on Labour Relations, there was quite a bit of controversy on it, and the committee decided, or the government decided, that they would send it to the Court of Appeal.

The other one on the Time Sale, the government said they would come into effect on the day of Proclamation. That bill has not been proclaimed, and we •re dealing with it again today. Madam Speaker, I think it is regrettable that the government saw fit to not proclaim the Time Sale Agreement.

The other one went through the Court of Appeal, and I was one of the members, Madam Speaker, that sat on the Industrial Relations Comm ittee dealing with The Labour Relations Act amendmen ts , and in my opinion I was led to believe that as the committee rose, that when this would go to the Court of Appeal, many people that spoke to the committee would be asked to give their advice on how these amendments should be presented to the Court of Appeal, and I believe that most of the members believed that, and some of the legal people that were there thought that they were going to get an invitation from the government asking them their opinions on the way this should be presented to the Court of Appeal.

Some of them were asked to give their opinions, but the Attorney-General when he wrote them said, "You can send your opinions, but I can't guarantee you that we will deal with them -- we will give them serious consideration. " So what happened, Madam Speaker, is this, that the question did go to the Court of Appeal and when it did go to the Court of Appeal, the way it was put to the Court of Appeal there could only be one answer, and you didn't need to send it to the Court of Appeal to get that anser.

I've talked .to many legal men and askedthem what their opinion was, and they told me the way the question was putto the:Court of Appeal that it didn't need to go there; they could have sent it to any third-year law student and they could have given them the same answer. Because the way the question was put, it answered itself. Now, Madam Speaker, yesterday when we were in Law Amendments Comm ittee, by mis­ take there were two bills brought in front of this committee and then they were· turned back to the Industrial Relations Committee. We saw there what was happening.

There were two bills to be presented; the Labour Unions were on one side, the Management was on the other side, and they were both there prepared to fight each other. Now this government, Madam Speaker, has itself said that what they want most of all is co-operation between Management and Labour, and they're not going to get it by legislation, legislating against Labour unions and legislating in favour of management on the other hand. Labour Unions want co-operation, Madam Speaker, but co-operation is a two-way street; it •s not a one-way street.

The Honourable Member from Brandon -- he's not in his seat now -- the other day said that you can•t legislate wages. No, you can•t legislate wages. Neither can you legislate things that we have done. Labour unions individually fear what this legislation says. Now Madam Speaker, the· question was put to the Court, and as I said before, it answers itself. The question the unions would like to know is, when does a union authorize

an Act, or when does it do

an Act? This is something that the Court of Appeal did not deal with, and this is a very important question to people in labour and labour unions . They want to live with Management. They want to live with everybody else, but they don't want to be the ones whose toes are always getting stepped on, and with this legislation, Madam Speaker, the legislation that I am asking to be repealed, the integrity of the unions is being questioned. Take the legal -- the taking of a strike vote conducted by the government. What does it prove? It doesn't prove a thing, Madam Speaker, It doesn't prove a thing because the government is getting into a part that I think they should not take a

part in. The government has put out a press release, and I've got it here somewhere Madam Speaker -- I don't want to read it -- of how Labour and Management in the European countries are getting along and where in some countries in Europe they do not have to put up with the legislation that is being imposed on Labour here. We had a very good example, as I said the other day -- yesterday it was -- wben we had the Management side on one side and the Union side on the other side, ready to battle each other, and as long as we have to live in this atmosphere, Madam Speaker, we are not going to get anywhere.

Until Labour starts to trust Management and Management starts to trust Labour Page 1566 April 23rd, 1963

(Mr. Peters cont•d) ..•••• we will not get anywhere.

When this case went to the Appeal Court, Madam Speaker, -- I don•t want to go into the legal end of it because I know that I could be tied up in knots ; there are too many lawyers in this House for me and I don't think I could handle all of them ; I might be able to handle one at a time but not the whole works of them altogether -- but the Court of Appeal did say that they are not expected to deal on hypothetical cases, and the only way that the Unions could present their cases was on a )lypothetical basis, and this is, to me, very important, Madam Speaker, becaqse we know what has happened in other jurisdictions.

We don•t want it to happen here . Madam Speaker, I could read here of the way things go on in Sweden. I don't want to read the whole part of what is going on in Sweden but I would like to just read the heading. It says, "lt's Peace by Consent. Labour and Management don't Feud. " This is what we want Madam Speaker, here in this province. This is what we want throughout the whole of Canada, and put­ ting these pieces of legislation in the way of labour, putting them in the way of Management is not going to help us any.

Labour feels that they•re being out-legislated; Management feels that they're not getting enough legislation in their favour, and this, if it's allowed to carry on, Madam Speaker, will never, never get us to the ultimate solution that we want, co-operation between Labour and Management. We have had many top people in Labour say that the day of the strike, that used to be one of Labour's greatest weapons, is over; that they have to sit down at the table and negotiate things.

I agree with this, but as long as government passes legisla­ tion that is detrimental to Labour, then Labour is. going to feel that the government is not trying to help it, that they•re getting in the way, they're putting' an obstacle there all the way, and this is the thing, Madam Speaker, that we have to get away from, that we all have to work towards right now. This is the critical stage in the history of the Province of Manitoba, of what is going to happen in the next ten or fifteen yea rs.

We see the report of the Committee on Manitoba •s Economic Future and what they tell us and what we should do, and yet we have plants that are operating in less than 50 percent of their. capacity, and it's not through legislation that this is happening; it's because -- it's a lack of understanding between the JYiinister of Agriculture, the Minister of Industry and Commerce, and the Minister of Labour, that we are not getting ahead with the job; and I guess I'm getting a little off the track when I'm starting to talk; I should be talking on the Minister's salary when I start talk:Ug like this, but Madam Speaker what I've been trying to get across to the members of the Legislature is this: Labour wants· to co-operate and it will co-operate.

Manage­ ment will co-operate as long as the· government tries to help them instead of putting obstacles in their way. Madam Speaker put the question. MR . PATRICK: Madam. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, that the debate be adjourned. · Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee .to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, and the motion is seconded by the Minister of Welfare.

Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself intoa:Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR . ·cHAmMAN: Department XIII - 1. Administration. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Honourable the First Minister can indicate where we go from here insofar as the estimates are concerned. I realize that there is the Department of Labour that we have yet to deal with.

I realize that the Honourable the First Minister was pleased to announce to the House this afternoon that the Minister of Labour was down in Sao Paulo or someplace down in South America, in connection with the Pan American Games for 1967. I think that it is most importantthat the MiniSiter of Labour should be in the House when we•re dealing with his estimates, because this is a very important segment of the economy of the Province of Manitoba. I also realize that there ate provisions in the estimates for other considerations, matters of capital, matters of public debt.

I would like to know from the Honourable the First Minister whether he is going to go ahe ad with an Acting Minister in the Department of Labour who has no responsibilities for the conduct of the future well-being April 23rd, 1963 Page 156 7

(Mr. Paulley cont1d) •• ••••• of the department in the future, or whether or not he's going to go into the provision in the estimates for public debt or whether this committee is going to have to consider a department :with the Minister in absentia. MR . ROBLIN: My friend·poses me a very difficult problem here. We•re almost through the estimates. The only other item that requires to be voted on besides Labour is, of course, the Civil Service salary increase, Resolution 100, and it had been my intention, I must admit, to suggest that we would continue with Labour tonight.

I regret as well as he does the Minister is not here. He may not be here for a couple of days, unfortunately, and at this stage in our pro­ ceedings it's a bit awkward to hold things up. Mind you, we share a collective responsibility on this side as well as individual responsibility for departments and in view of his previous experience I hoped my colleague the Minister of Welfare could give a fairly good account of himself in going through these estimates on behalf of the Minister of Labour. I, too, would prefer the Minister of Labour to be here.

I think it is salutary for Ministers to be available in debates of this kind, but his being in Brazil was coincidental unfortunately, and he•s not going to be back for a couple of days as far as I know; so I would like the indulgence of th� committee in proceeding with Labour .if we can. MR . PAULLEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to raise objections at all.

I appreciate the fact that the former Minister of Labour is in the House, and as I indicated the other day, I do feel that the former Minister of Labour should be in the House to hear of the criticisms of his administration, and I think that they are considerable; but I do think in all earnestness that it would be for the well-being of the conduct of the economy of the Province of Manitoba that the newly designated Minister of Labour should be in the House to hear of the shortcomings of the previous Minister in order that he may gain from the benefits of these shortcomings and also that, seeing as we have got a rookie in the Department of Labour with the former Honourable Member for Osborne, that he should know, without the necessity of having to read Hansard, what we thought of the operation of the Department of Labour under the former Minister and the suggestions that we are going to make on this side of the House, I hope, for the better conduct of the relationship between Management and Labour in the year that we have entered into at the present time.

Now I appreciate the predicament, . Mr. Chairman, that the Honourable the Leader of the House is in, and I suggest that it really is a predicament that he is in, because of the fact that his Minister of Labour has gone down to South American in connection with the Pan American Games for the year 19 67 to take place here in the City of Winnipeg, and I join with my honour­ able friend in the statement that he made this afternoon of how we in this Legislature -- (inter­ jection) -- Well, it doesn't matter whether 11m a day out or not.

But I join with my honourable friend, the First Minister, despite the kibitz from my right, in how much we appreciate the fact that the Pan American Games are going to come here to the City of Winnipeg, and we apprec­ iate the fact that the administration did see fit to send a representative down to Sao Paulo to aid the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg in his deliberations and persuasion to have these games here. MR . EVANS: •.••. Is he proposing to talk until the Minister gets back. MR . PAULLEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't think that I am going to talk until the Minister gets back.

I would like to have that capability, and I'd like, Mr. Chairman, that the Rules of the House would permit me to talk until the Minister of Labour got back. But I would suggest that the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce has pinpointed the objectivity of my remark, and also may I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he at least by inference is supporting me in my contention of the desirability and the necessity of the Minister of Labour being here when we are considering his estimates for the forthcoming year. And I think, Mr.

Chairm an, of all of the Ministers of the Crown, the one who should have raised this particular point should be the Minister of Industry and Commerce. And I say this, Mr. Chairman, because of the fact that the Minister of Industry and Commerce, of all the Ministers of the Crown, as a result of the investigation of the Committee on Manitoba 's Economic Future, is so concerned and the committee report is concerned, of the co-operation between Management, Labour and Gov­ ernment into the future of the Province of Manitoba.

The committee was, I think, set up at the instigation of the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce, and I give him credit for this. But a� I mentioned the other day, throughout all of the report there is emphasis laid on the fact of the necessity of co-operation between industry, government and labour. Now we 1ve Page 1568 April 23rd, 1963

(Mr. Paulley cont'd) .••.• done away with the old, -- and when I say "old " I am referring to the past Minister of Labour. We•ve got laid before us in this House a new vision for the future well-being of the Province of Manitoba •.. •• MR . CHAffiMAN: Is this on Item 1? MR. PAULLEY: Just a minute, Mr. Chairman, it's not Item 1 yet. It•s as to whether or not this committee should consider the Department of Labour estimates, and, Mr. Chairman, with all due respect I think this is the item, or this is the matter that •s before this committee at th(l present time, as to where the committee should go. Now, Mr.

Chairman •••. I beg your pardon? MR . ROBLIN: We are not on any item yet. We haven't even begun. MR . PAULLEY: That •s right. We•re dealing with the question of supply. We're dealing with a motion of supply, Mr.

Chairm an, and I am suggesting because we have no directive from the government as to where we were going from Welfare, I am suggesting that the committee should undertake consideration of not going into the Department of Labour as you suggested -­ not the committee, but you, Sir -- suggested in the absence of the Minister of Labour, because of the vital concern presumably of the government of the position of Labour, I suggest that be­ cause of the fact that the government has seen fit to change its Minister of Labour -- and I am not going to go into the reasons why, because I am not fully conversant with them but I can sus­ pect -- but I am suggesting this Mr.

Chairman, that because of the fact that the government has suggested or has announced a change in the Minstry of Labour, because of the fact the Minister of Labour is not present, because the government has pronounced ..••• its acce ptance of the Committee on Manitoba•s Economic Future, the importance of the position of Labour in the development of the economics of Manitoba, that it is most essential that the Minister of Labour should be present for these deliberations.

And I respectfully suggest to the First Min­ ister, who is the baton waver of these committees -- and the bagpipe player •... and a Union member,.as my honourable friend is so ready to tell us that he carries his card as a bagpipe player in the Union of Musicians here in the Province of Manitoba •.•. MR . ROBLIN: I had to do that to prove it was a musical instrument. MR . PAULLEY: And I might say, Mr. Chairman, that despite the statement of the Honour­ able the First Minister, I still doubt whether it's a musical instrument. And I say this, Mr.

Chairman, with my tongue in my cheek because when I get home if my wife happ ens to read what I•ve said I know that I am going to get Lord Harry when I do get home, because she happ ens to be of Scottish ancestry. MR . LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Let's have a tune on your bagpipes . MR . PAULLEY: Here I have my medical advisor on one hand, Mr. Chairman, and on the other hand here I have my undertaker friend .... •.• MR . ROBLIN: My honourable friend has ma de a suggestion to me; I think I should answer it by saying that we should proceed with Item 1 on the estimates of the Department of Labour. MR .

PAULLEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I raise objections. And I think that it is within my premise as a member of this committee tO raise the objections that I am raising at the present time despite the injunction of my honourable friend the Minister of the Trea sury and the First Minister.

Because I don't think that this committee should pro"ceed with the estimates of the Department of Labour in the absence of a new Minister of Labour, but if my honourable friend, the First Minister of the Province of Manitoba, despite the orations of my honourable friend the Minister of Industry, despite the orations of my honourable friend the First Minister, but if those two want to relegate the position of Labour in this province to the low ebb that they want to, so that these very vital