British Columbia Hansard — Wednesday, November 18, 2009

H1118pm-05

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 39th Parliament o FFicial rePort o F Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari So FF, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Wednesday, November 18, 2009 Afternoon Sitting Volume 8, Number 5

Pro Vince o F britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l. Point, obc First Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker o F the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil ......................................................................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Minister of State for intergovernmental r elations ....................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance .......................................................................................................................... h on. c olin h ansen Minister of State for the o lympics and a ctn ow b.c. ....................................................................................................... h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation .....................................................................................................h on. George a bbott Minister of a dvanced e ducation and l abour Market Development ............................................................................ h on. Moira Stilwell Minister of a griculture and l ands ...................................................................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson a ttorney General ...................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of c hildren and Family Development and Minister r esponsible for c hild c are ............................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of citizens' Services and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism and the Public a ffairs bureau ...........h on. ben Stewart Minister of c ommunity and r ural Development ................................................................................................................h on. bill bennett Minister of e ducation and Minister r esponsible for early l earning and l iteracy ......................................h on.

Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources .....................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Minister of State for Mining ................................................................................................................................................h on. r andy h awes Minister of environment .......................................................................................................................................................h on. barry Penner Minister of State for c limate a ction ...........................................................................................................................................h on.

John Y ap Minister of Forests and r ange and Minister r esponsible for the integrated l and Management bureau ........................... h on.

Pat bell Minister of h ealth Services ...................................................................................................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Minister of h ealthy l iving and Sport ...................................................................................................................................... h on. ida c hong Minister of h ousing and Social Development .................................................................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of l abour ................................................................................................................................................................ h on.

Murray c oell Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .....................................................................................................................h on. k ash h eed Minister of Small business, t echnology and e conomic Development ................................................................................ h on. iain black Minister of t ourism, c ulture and the a rts ...................................................................................................................... h on. k evin k rueger Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ...................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ...................................................................................................................................................c arole James Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker .............................................................................................................................................................c laire t revena Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole .......................................................................................................................................... h arry bloy c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................................. craig h.

James c lerk a ssistant and c ommittee c lerk .................................................................................................................................... k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms .................................................................................................................................................................................

Gary l enz Director, h ansard Services ............................................................................................................................................................Jo-a nne k ern a cting l egislative l ibrarian .......................................................................................................................................................... Peter Gourlay l egislative c omptroller ....................................................................................................................................................................... Dan a rbic

alP habetical liS t o F MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, h on. bill (l) ...................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, h on. iain (l) ..................................................... Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h arry (l) ......................................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-Fleetwood c adieux, Stephanie (l) ...........................................................Surrey-Panorama c ampbell, h on. Gordon (l) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, h on. Murray (l) ....................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ...........................................

Fort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) .............................................................. Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on.

Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington Falcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale Farnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam Fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake Foster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, h on. c olin (l) ..................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, h on. r andy (l) ..................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, h on. k ash (l) ...................................................... Vancouver-Fraserview h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ..................................................Vancouver–West end h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de Fuca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, h on. k evin (l) ..................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, t erry (l) .....................................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................Fraser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, h on. Margaret (l) ..................................... Vancouver-Fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on.

Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–False creek Mcr ae, Don (l) ............................................................................. c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry (l) ............................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (nDP) ...................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, h on. ben (l) ........................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, h on. Moira (l) ...................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon. Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, hon.

John (l) .............................................................r ichmond-Steveston liS t o F MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .............................................................h on. r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ...................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott Fraser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ............................................................................ h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope ...................................................................h on. barry Penner c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley.................................................................................... Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis Fort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman Fraser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de Fuca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson .............................................................t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ............................................ h on. k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast .......................................................................... h on. bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................

Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam .............................................................h on. iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston .................................................................... h on. John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands ........................................... h on.

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on. George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine .......................................................................................

Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Surrey-Fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ..................................................................Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ...........................................................................

Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-Fairview ............................................. h on. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–False creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-Fraserview ..............................................................h on. k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara ............................................................. h on. Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .........................................

Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey .................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Vancouver-Quilchena ..........................................................h on. c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ................................................................Spencer h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric Foster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob Fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna ...................................................................h on. ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 49; n ew Democratic 35; independent 1

CONTENTS Wednesday, november 18, 2009 a fternoon Sitting Page Routine Business introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 2485 t ributes ..................................................................................................................................................................................... 2486 Sandy k orman k. c onroy Statements (Standing order 25b) ......................................................................................................................................... 2486 bombing of a ir india flight and death of t ara Singh h ayer D. h ayer r emembrance Day ceremony in newton h. b ains bill r oss, Doug embree and r on bannerman D.

Mcr ae Diabetes awareness M. e lmore burnaby l ocal h ero a wards r . l ee c limate conference in c openhagen l. Popha m oral Questions ......................................................................................................................................................................... 2488 o lympic Games costs c. James h on. M. Mcn eil k. c orrigan M. Farnworth b. r alston Gravel extraction from Fraser r iver V . huntington h on. b. Penner c omments by David h ahn on comptroller general report G. c oons h on. S. bond a ccess to b.c. Ferries information h. b ains h on. S. bond b.c.

Ferries and b .c. r ail executive salaries J. h organ h on. S. bond Petitions .................................................................................................................................................................................... 2493 J. h organ c. James D. Donaldson J. kwan

Orders of the Day c ommittee of the Whole h ouse ............................................................................................................................................ 2494 bill 20 — Miscellaneous Statutes a mendment a ct (n o. 2), 2009 l. k rog h on. S. Thomson h on. M. de Jong J. h organ h on. b. l ekstrom n. Macdonald h on. P . bell S.

Simpson h on. r . c oleman r eport and Third r eading of bills ......................................................................................................................................... 2512 bill 20 — Miscellaneous Statutes a mendment a ct (n o. 2), 2009 c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 2512 e stimates: Ministry of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources h on. b. l ekstrom h on. r . h awes J. h organ D. Donaldson M. Sather G.

Gentner Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 2527 e stimates: Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General h on. k. h eed M. Farnworth r . Fleming

2485 WeD neSD a Y , noVeMber 18, 2009 The h ouse met at 1:33 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Prayers. Introductions by Members Hon. B. Bennett: it's my pleasure to introduce some folks today from the k ootenays. First of all, the electoral area b director from c entral k ootenay regional district, John k ettle. John wears a black cowboy hat, but he's still a good guy. Welcome to the l egislature, John. i'd also like to welcome today to the l egislature the mayor of c astlegar, l awrence c hernoff, and his cao , John Malcolm — both sitting up here. Please help me make them feel welcome today. M.

Sather: Joining us today in the gallery is my sister Joan Scott and her husband, a llen Scott, who are here from n anoose bay. They've come down with a group of folks to express their concerns regarding health care on the island. Will the h ouse please join me in making them welcome. [1335] Hon. R. Hawes: in the gallery today is Dave n ewnham and bill brooks. Dave is the vice-president and executive director and bill is the special projects manager of the t im h orton c hildren's Foundation.

They are here today to talk to government about…. a s many here know, t im h ortons has children's camps across n orth a merica but none in british c olumbia. They are here today to talk to members of government about establishing a children's camp in british c olumbia. i'd like the h ouse to please wish them both Godspeed, good luck and to thank them for all the work they do for all kids all across c anada. t im h ortons is great for what they do. K. Corrigan: it gives me a great deal of pleasure to introduce a long-time friend of mine. Diane Gillis is here in the audience today, in the gallery.

Diane and i first met many years ago when we were both parents at the West burnaby Parent Participation Preschool. Diane has continued to give so much to our com- munity. r ight now, just as one example, she heads up the k ingsway-imperial neighbourhood house and does won- derful things in our community. i'd like you to make her welcome. L. Reid: on behalf of the Speaker, i would like to take this opportunity to welcome a group of public ser - vants seated in the gallery. They are participating in a full-day parliamentary procedure workshop offered by the l egislative a ssembly.

The workshop provides a first- hand opportunity for the public service to gain a greater understanding of the relationship between the work of their ministries and how that work affects this l egislature. Would the house please make them welcome. C. Trevena: in the precincts today are a number of constituents from n orth island. They came down to show their concerns about public health care. They are Joanne banks, r ichard h agensen, l ance k laasen, l arry Widen, betty Frost, Thora h ood, a nita brochochka, Dave k ulyk, Steve Mooney and l ois Jarvis. i hope the h ouse will make them all very welcome. J.

Rustad: it's a great pleasure to have some constitu- ents travel down for a series of meetings here in Victoria today. With me in the l egislature are l inda bush and her daughters r ene bush and a ndrea Patrick as well as Delores Y oung, from Vanderhoof, and their lawyer h oward r ubin. i'd ask that the h ouse would please make them welcome. S. Fraser: i'd like to join my colleague from Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows in welcoming Joan and a llen Scott. They are friends of mine from n anoose. a ccompanying them today, also concerned with protecting public health care, is bernie Pearce.

Would you please join me in making them all feel very welcome. Hon. K. Falcon: a couple of introductions today. First of all, i'd like to welcome into the h ouse ethan h uberman and his father, Morry h ubburmin, who are joining us today. ethan has been and continues to be a strong supporter of the a sia-Pacific gateway strategy and the Gateway program in british c olumbia. i want to wel- come them. in addition, i understand someone i attended high school with is with us today. eric Polson and his partner k im berekely are here today. i'd ask the h ouse to make all of them welcome. M.

Mungall: i'd like to add some words of welcome to those of the Minister of c ommunity and r ural Development. h e welcomed John k ettle from electoral area b of the rD ck. Well, John happens to be a very good friend of mine, despite our political differences, and i actually have one of his black hats in my office in n elson. Hon. I. Black: There's an organization in b.c . called Mitac S. This is a group of individuals who are leading our province in the areas of science and mathematics. if

british c olumbia Debates2486 Wednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 you've ever wondered if you can be passionate about math- ematics, this group can prove it with the best of them. in the gallery today or in the precinct, we've got Daniel Fontaine, who's the vice-president of communi- cations and public affairs, and o lga Stackova, who's the chief operating officer of that organization. i ask the h ouse to join me in making our mathematicians feel most welcome. [1340] D. Routley: i'd like the h ouse to help me welcome grades 4, 5 and 6 students from Park a venue c ommunity School in n anaimo, from my constituency.

We should feel very welcoming in greeting them in our h ouse, in their h ouse. R. Chouhan: i would also like to join my friend from burnaby–Deer l ake in welcoming Diane Gillis to the gallery. in addition, i want to welcome my dear friend Gordie l arkin, who's here — a community leader, a great trade unionist. Please join me to welcome him. J. Horgan: Joining us in the precincts today are three very good friends of mine from Sooke, down h ighway 14. i know that the Minister of t ransportation is familiar with that arterial road. They are l orna and r on barry and my friend Flo t ickner.

Would the h ouse make these Sookians very, very welcome. K. Corrigan: i've just become aware that we also have in the h ouse another friend of mine, l eslie Dickout. She's staff at the b.c. h ealth c oalition, does brilliant work for them and was here today with a number of other people expressing concern about our health care system. i hope you'll make her welcome. Tributes SanDY k orMan K. Conroy: on n ovember 11 we lost an amazing woman when Sandy k orman passed away.

Y esterday hundreds of friends and family gathered in c astlegar to say goodbye, share our stories and remember her infec- tious laughter and humorous stories. Sandy was well known in these halls as a capable assistant to c orky e vans throughout his 15 years in pol- itics.

What isn't as well known is the influence she had on so many of our lives in the k ootenays. h er patience and excellent political sense helped to create and sustain the c olumbia basin t rust, the k ootenay School of the a rts, the k ootenay Gallery and the beautiful built-in- the-k ootenays Osprey ferry that sails across k ootenay l ake, just to name a few. Sandy was also an artist, creating beautiful pottery, wonderful interior designs and of course her blings. Y ou will see hundreds of these unique pieces of art hanging on many necks around the province.

She was mom to Shaun and Jen, sister to Sheren and brian, auntie to her nieces and nephews and a great friend to many of us who, although we will miss her, know her legacy will live on in the many memories we all cherish. Statements (Standing Order 25B) bo Mbin G o F air inD ia Fli Ght an D Death o F tara S in Gh ha Yer D.

Hayer: a lmost 25 years have gone by since c anada's worst act of political terrorism, the bombing of a ir india flight 182 and the related bombing at t okyo's n arita airport. a total of 331 people, most of them c anadians, were murdered that day. a lthough it happened on June 23, 1985, in the minds of the families of those who were slain, the tragedy lives on as if it had only happened yes- terday. closure has not been achieved. Justice has not been served.

Several years after those 331 killings my father, a news- paper publisher who'd reported on the tragedy, was assas- sinated. h e was a journalist who had the courage to write candidly about the tragedy and told what he knew to the police. For speaking out his mind, he was killed. on n ovember 18, 1998, my father, t ara Singh h ayer, was assassinated as he sat in his wheelchair at his home. i believe he was killed to prevent him from testifying in court as a witness.

My father was an outspoken advocate against terror - ism and injustice, and he was for democracy and for freedom. t oday is the 11th anniversary of his death. My mother and my sister are opening a community centre in memory of his life in our village of Paddi Jagir in Punjab, india, where he was born.

Funded by the t ara Singh h ayer Memorial Foundation, this community centre will be expanded into a seniors centre and a library. it will remind us of his peaceful pursuit of justice and the importance of freedom of speech and democracy. i ask all Mla s, all MPs and all Senators in o ttawa, on the anniversary of my father's death, to once again remember the victims and their families and to encour - age efforts to bring the killers to justice and to prevent such tragedies from ever happening again in c anada. [a pplause.] reMeMbrance Da Y cereM onY in ne Wton H.

Bains: i'm sure all members were able to partici- pate in r emembrance Day ceremonies to pay respect to our fallen soldiers in their own way this year. [1345] i'd like to share with you the r emembrance Day cere- mony i attended, which was very unique and special. it

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 2487 was special because it was organized and attended by the young people in our community. There were close to 500 people in attendance, most of them youth. There were Sparks, brownies, Girl Guides, Pathfinders, beavers, c ubs, Scouts. a ll participated in this ceremony. These are the youth of n ewton. i believe it is important for our youth to learn of the sacrifices that were made and are being made by our service women and men in return for our freedom and liberty.

The Pioneer District Girl Guides, along with all the organizations who participated in this service, are doing a great job in educating our young people about those sacrifices. i was so proud to watch the youngsters bring their hand-made wreaths and poppies and lay them at the cenotaph. Y ou could see in their eyes that they knew the importance of what they were doing and were trying to understand. i have attended this ceremony at n ewton cenotaph for the past four years.

This year's event was the largest. i believe this is a growing trend that will force us to look for peaceful means to settle our differences. i say this because within a few years it's today's youth who will be sitting in these chairs and other chairs of the parliaments of our country.

The more they know of our history, the better the position they will be in to make decisions to avoid wars and bring long-lasting peace. i would like to thank k irstie Goy, who was the original organizer of this event. k irstie plans this event every year along with h eather Smith, a ngela r oscoe, Janice c hisholm and Pioneer District Girl Guides. i would like all of you to join with me in thanking all of them for their time, effort, commitment and the tremendous job that they are doing in organizing this event every year. bill ro SS, Dou G e Mbree anD ron bannerMan D.

McRae: it is with great sadness that i stand here today to recognize three long-serving teachers in the c omox Valley who have left their friends and family far too early. Within the past month bill r oss, Doug embree and r on bannerman, with a combined teaching experience of 106 years, have passed. bill r oss is survived by his wife, Joanna; his children, a ndi and r ob; and his grandchildren, c harlotte and o liver. For 36 years bill was a great role model for both his students and his colleagues. h e is described as firm but fair, a man who cared for his students, and they knew it.

Y oung teachers also looked to him for advice and guidance, and he gladly gave it. bill was best described as passionate about his family, his teaching, his barbecu- ing, his love for red wine and the Dallas c owboys. Doug e mbree is survived by his wife, Marilyn; sons, o wen and ben; and grandchildren, r hiannon, Maia, h amilton and Quinnton. Doug taught for 39 years, retir- ing last June. h e was a giant of a man whose physical size was only exceeded by the size of his heart. h e worked tirelessly with students needing both academic and sometimes parental guidance.

The number of young stu- dents who achieved success in school because of Doug's efforts is immeasurable. r on bannerman is survived by his wife, cindy; his father, John; children, k im and Mike; and granddaugh- ter, Zoey. r on was born and raised in c umberland and began his teaching career in the c omox Valley in 1968. h e worked for 31 years as an educator, and i'm proud to say that r on was my grade 6 teacher and inspired in me a love of history and storytelling. h e was also instru- mental in the creation of the n o. 6 Mine Park and its maintenance and a driving force behind the c umberland h eritage Fair and the c omox Valley heritage t our.

The c omox Valley has lost three great individuals. While their absence saddens both myself and those who knew them, i can say with certainty that they touched so many people during the course of their lives, that their legacies will live on. DiabeteS a WareneSS M. Elmore: n ovember is when we commemorate World Diabetes Month, the primary global awareness campaign for diabetes. World Diabetes Day is celebrated every n ovember 14 and was created in 1991 by the international Diabetes Federation and the World h ealth organization in response to the growing and escalating health threat that diabetes now poses.

With the passage of the u nited n ations World Diabetes Day resolution in December 2006, diabetes became the first chronic disease to be granted global recognition.

Presently 3 million c anadians live with diabetes, includ- ing over 283,000 people in british c olumbia. i'd like to take this time to congratulate and recognize the work of the c anadian Diabetes a ssociation in work- ing on this issue, raising awareness and working towards preventing and supporting people with diabetes, and also to recognize the leadership of the executive director, c onnie a brams, and congratulate the c anadian Diabetes a ssociation on their eighth annual seasonal dinner. it was sponsored by the b.c. a ssociation of Podiatrists, and the focus this year was on providing practical gifts, such as walkers and socks, and support for people from low-income families in partnership with the c arnegie c entre. [1350] i had the opportunity of participating in an event, Diabetes and the Filipino Family, and learned a lot from Dr. r anbir Mann and n oony Santos-Paletta, a dietitian. i and also participated in community fundraising events with my good friends e velyn and r ey del r osario. t ogether with the support of Dr. k eith Dawson and Dr.

John h unt, i encourage everybody to become a diabetes

british c olumbia Debates2488 Wednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 champion and to sign on as a diabetes champion onto worlddiabetes.ca and to support the great work of the c anadian Diabetes association on this important issue. burnabY local hero a WarDS R. Lee: on n ovember 2 burnaby city hall honoured 13 remarkable individuals from burnaby. The burnaby l ocal h ero a wards are given to those who have made outstanding contributions to community well-being. These awards have been granted since 1997, recogniz- ing 187 people to date, from local business owners to retirees, teachers and parents.

These awards recognize the efforts and contributions of a diverse group of indi- viduals, all of whom have been nominated by the people in the community. The burnaby l ocal h ero a wards, therefore, not only acknowledge the hard work of active citizens but also encourage and enhance the sense of community living in burnaby. This year's recipients of the award have unique stories to share.

Stella c astillo, who is originally from c olombia, arrived in c anada in 2000 after being held hostage by a guerrilla group for five months. in c anada she has been facilitating a l atin a merican women's group through the reach c ommunity health c entre. o ther winners are Merrilyn c ook, Sidney c umbers, Sharon Freeman, Fatehali Jetha, Jack k uyer, t ammy o zero, Wanley Poh, Deepak Prasad, Wendell r atcliffe, Mohammad Shamsi, Millie Wylie and k eanna Driedger, who is the youngest member of this group, at only 16 years of age.

These remarkable individuals have donated numer - ous hours and have demonstrated the courage, commit- ment and dedication to the variety of different causes they champion and to a better quality of life for the resi- dents of burnaby. i would like to ask the h ouse to join me in congratu- lating all of burnaby's local heroes. cliMate conFerence in co Penha Gen L.

Popham: on December 6 world leaders will gather in c openhagen, Denmark to negotiate a world climate deal. in order for this to succeed, this deal must include binding targets for steep and immediate reductions of co 2 emissions. c openhagen presents a most crucial opportunity at a pivotal time.

We have a chance to create a successor treaty to the kyoto accord and move the planet towards a solu- tion before irreversible global warming takes effect. c limate change is the number one threat to our planet at this time. a rise in temperature will kill our forests, intensify storms, diminish our food supplies, threaten mass extinction and will ultimately lead to war.

Many world leaders are already committed to negotiat- ing an agreement at c openhagen that is ambitious, fair and binding. u nfortunately, c anada is falling behind. o ur national targets for reducing greenhouse gas emissions have been called ineffective, and our performance at a number of recent climate meetings has been labelled "obstruction- ist." Does inaction or paralysis come from fear, or does it come from greed, or does it come from the addiction to fossil fuels that has such a grasp on us that we would risk our entire planet? i hope our fear regarding change can be overcome and replaced with the stronger fear of doing nothing. i stand in front of all of you today and tell you from my heart that i'm afraid of what our future holds. i would like to ask this government to join with the opposition to collectively send a letter of concern to the government of c anada and together request a very strong c anadian presence at c openhagen.

Oral Questions ol YMPic Ga Me S co St S C. James: Documents obtained through freedom of information show that the b.c. l iberal government con- tinues to cover up o lympic costs. [1355] i have a letter here from Vanoc's chief financial offi- cer to Philip Steenkamp, ceo of the o lympic secretariat, in which he writes: "Dear Mr. Steenkamp, i am writing to request funding from british c olumbia with respect to the 2010 opening ceremonies and other projects. This request totals…." That's where the document ends — blanked out. My question is to the minister responsible for the o lympics.

What possible reason does she have to with- hold this information from the public? Hon. M. McNeil: in just 86 days from now we will be hosting the 2010 o lympic Winter Games. a gain, what we know is that these o lympic Games, if we take full advantage of them…. This is going to be even better for our province. if we don't, we will have a missed oppor - tunity. Vanoc is working incredibly hard to make sure the 2010 o lympic Winter Games are the best yet and, Mr. Speaker…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. M. McNeil: Mr.

Speaker, it's about time that the members opposite get on board with the o lympics. Mr. Speaker: The l eader of the o pposition has a supplemental.

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 2489 C. James: u nlike this minister and unlike this gov- ernment, i believe that you can support the o lympics and look out for taxpayer dollars at the same time. it's no surprise…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. C. James: it's no surprise to the public that the o lympics cost money, but this government appears to be dead set on hiding just how much. it appears to be noth- ing less than a cover-up by this minister, refusing to put the information out there.

We've seen this before, when the minister refused to tell british c olumbians just how much this government was spending on o lympic tickets. We see it again today. a gain to the minister: why does she continue to refuse to put the information in front of the public? Hon. M. McNeil: it was interesting, and i'm thrilled to see that the l eader of the o pposition is now for the o lympics, because she's been on record as not being. So that's great news to hear.

What i can say today is that we are going to ensure that we do everything right when it comes to the o lympics, because this is an unparalleled opportunity for our econ- omy. This will be the launching pad for the next decade, and this government is going to make sure we get it right. h aving said that, there will be a full accounting of every cost at the end of the o lympics. Mr. Speaker: The l eader of the o pposition has a fur- ther supplemental. C. James: if this government wants to do something right, put out the information about the real costs of the o lympics. it's simple, straightforward.

Words that this minister and this government don't seem to understand — openness, accountability, public oversight. There is no reason why this information couldn't be made public. So again my question is to the minister. Stop the cover-up, be upfront with british c olumbians, and tell us how much money V anoc received from the government. Hon. M. McNeil: i think what's really important here is that these 2010 o lympic Games are a major stimulant for our economic growth. i tell you, Mr. Speaker, these games already have been a major job creator — 22,000 new jobs. o ver 800 businesses have been created.

This is a very positive thing for this province, and we're going to make sure that we do it right. a gain, there will be a full accounting, but i tell you that this govern- ment is going to make sure we are the host of the great- est o lympic Games ever. [1400] K. Corrigan: Well, you talk about the benefits of the games. but what's the point of figuring out whether the benefits are worthwhile if you don't know what the costs are? That's our problem. a gain, secrecy and cover-up — that's this govern- ment's legacy for the o lympics.

Thanks to the govern- ment's ask, don't tell approach, there's no way to know how much money V anoc requested. information about how they planned to spend it was also severed. a gain to the minister: will she for once commit to be open and transparent and release this information to the public today? Hon. M. McNeil: a gain, our budget for hosting the games, living up to the ioc commitment, remains the same at $765 million. in addition to this…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. M. McNeil: What i will also point out, again….

For the first time in o lympic history all of the venues were finished ahead of time by one year. These venues will continue to support a lot of our future athletes for years and decades to come, and i think that is incredibly important. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. K. Corrigan: i can't quite believe my ears. Three weeks ago in estimates i went through a whole series of costs with this minister and asked specifically, one by one: is this part of the $765 million?

This minister confirmed that cost after cost — tickets, crown corporations, the crown secretariat — and millions and millions of dol- lars were not part of that $765 million. a t the end of those estimates i asked the minister whether there were any other costs that we should know about. Sitting with that same official involved in this Foi, she said to us: "n o. a fter consultation, there is nothing else that we're aware of." The public wants to know the true cost of the o lympics. Does the minister think that the public will tolerate her government's continual whiting-out and hiding of o lympic costs? Hon. M.

McNeil: a gain, these o lympics are the lar - gest economic stimulus that this province could ever ask for. l eaders around the world envy us this opportunity, especially at this time in history. These games are going

british c olumbia Debates2490 Wednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 to drive tourism, they're going to create jobs, and they're going to reinvigorate our economy at the very time we need it most so that we can continue to support educa- tion and health care in this province. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. interjection. M. Farnworth: That's something that you'll never have a problem…. i t will never happen with you. This is taxpayers' money that's being spent on the o lympics.

The public demands accountability and transparency. u nder this government, under freedom of information, we've seen neither nothing free or informa- tive about the information that this government makes available to the public. [1405] Vanoc is asking the o lympic secretariat, which according to this government is not even an o lympic cost, for additional money. it's severed in a release. There can be no possible reason not to put that informa- tion out to the public, not to let this h ouse know what that information is.

So will the Minister for the o lympics, who's supposed to know where these expenditures are going, supposed to know where this money is going…? Will she stand in this h ouse and tell how much money was requested by Vanoc from the o lympic secretariat? Hon. M. McNeil: a gain, the funding has not changed. it is within the $765 million, and V anoc still has a contingency within that. V anoc has been reporting on their finances quarterly, and they show they're on track. in addition to that, our expenses are in our cur - rent budget. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M.

Farnworth: Well, the request was to the o lympic secretariat, which this government says isn't even an o lympic cost. h ow absurd is that? My question to the minister is clear. if it's in the budget, tell us. What's she afraid of? What's she got to hide? Hon. M. McNeil: a gain, i'll repeat for the other side that there will be a full accounting of the expenses on the o lympics.

What i would also like to say is that in 86 days from now there's going to be an opening ceremony that is going to be broadcast to over three billion people worldwide. i know that this side of the h ouse is going to be glued to the tele- vision watching, and it's going to be an exciting time. in addition to that…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. M. McNeil: in addition, i think it would actually be a good idea for the members opposite to actually go on line and see what's happening today in n ova Scotia. That o lympic torch is being carried throughout the small towns in n ova Scotia.

Sidney crosby has it today, and i tell you, the amount of people watching that is very exciting. This is a good thing for our country. it is a good thing for our province, and this government is going to make sure that we do it right. B. Ralston: The Premier, as l eader of the o pposition, once said: "openness is better than hiddenness." l eaving aside the grammatical problems with that statement, i recommend that to the minister. Will the minister follow that advice of her leader and reveal the cost of the request from Vanoc? Hon. M.

McNeil: a gain, without sounding repetitive, there will be a full accounting of the costs. interjections. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. M. McNeil: a gain, this government, in 86 days from now, is going to make sure we have the greatest o lympics in history, and we're going to make sure that this province does everything it can to benefit from every opportunity that will be happening. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. B.

Ralston: a couple of weeks ago the Premier, in this h ouse, made a speech in which he appealed to our better natures and to set aside partisan differences on the occa- sion of the o lympics. Does the minister not understand that this attitude of stonewalling on the costs destroys public confidence in the o lympics? [1410] Hon. M. McNeil: a gain, there will be a full account- ing for the members opposite. but i just want to say that the public isn't looking at this. What the public is look- ing forward to, as is seen by the number of tickets that have gone out….

People are excited about these games; 1.6 million tickets have been sold for these games. People are excited about this. a thletes are coming here. They're excited. o ver 80 countries will be represented, and i tell you this govern- ment is going to make sure that we do ourselves proud.

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 2491 Gra Vel eX traction Fro M Fra Ser riVer V . Huntington: The Minister of e nvironment is charged with the public duty to protect wildlife in this province. h is own conservation framework, which he described to me the other day personally, champions the use of pre- ventative science and the conservation of habitats and ecosystems as his ministry's guide to decision-making. Y et we know that engineering and scientific studies show that gravel removal does nothing to aid flood con- trol.

We know that in the last few years the government has removed two biologists from the technical gravel committee who are refusing to support gravel extraction as an aid to flood control. The minister will also recall that in 2006 a gravel extraction operation on the lower Fraser killed over two million young pink right on the rearing area. i'm not sure how the minister can continue to cham- pion gravel removal and flood control in the same breath, and i ask him if he will stand by his conservation frame- work, do his duty and call a halt to the gravel removal on the Fraser. Hon. B.

Penner: i think it's important to protect both the environment and public safety. That is the priority of the Ministry of environment when we participate in planning activities related to the permitting of gravel extraction projects that are designed to reduce the flood risk for the hundreds of thousands of people and billions of dollars of investment that exist in the Fraser Valley in the l ower Mainland of british c olumbia. o ur key priorities are protecting the environment as well as public safety.

Since 2007 our government has invested in 168 flood protection projects, at a cost of $85.5 million, in partnership with the federal and local governments. The recent flood concerns we had just in the last few days underscore why it's prudent to protect both the environment and the public from the risk of flooding. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. V .

Huntington: i think if the minister really wanted to look at flood control on the Fraser, he would start to work with the communities on the lower Fraser that are in jeopardy of infill on the secondary channels, given that the federal government will no longer dredge them. interjection. Mr. Speaker: Minister. V . Huntington: Well, nobody knows it, sir.

The Minister of environment wrote to the Minister of Fisheries and o ceans calling for a review of the sockeye collapse on the Fraser r iver. on n ovember 5 the Prime Minister ordered a judicial inquiry into the sockeye collapse, announcing the most comprehensive review ever undertaken into the administration of the Fraser fishery.

We know that gravel removal does not assist flood control, and we also know the Gateway has confirmed an enormous need for gravel through 2010, declaring it will source it through gravel removal on the Fraser r iver. n o commercial activity should threaten the survival of a species, and the minister's first obligation should be to do no harm. The minister has announced his support for the judicial inquiry into the collapse of the sockeye on the Fraser, and i would submit that a failure to halt the removal of gravel prior to that inquiry would be showing contempt for that very inquiry. Mr.

Speaker: c an the member pose the question, please. V . Huntington: i would ask the minister again to declare that no further gravel removal will take place on our river until the judicial inquiry has reported on the reasons for the sockeye collapse. Hon. B.

Penner: a s i noted, we do take the inter - ests of protecting the environment and fish habitat into account in carefully planning any gravel extraction. [1415] interesting to note that in the member's supplemental question she advocated for dredging in the part of the Fraser r iver near her community, but people living upstream in the Fraser Valley also feel it's important that they should benefit from flood protection activities as well. i'd be pleased to welcome the member to our constitu- ency, where she would learn that every year hundreds of thousands of cubic metres of gravel are deposited in the stretch of the Fraser r iver between a gassiz and c hilliwack and downstream.

That sediment accumu- lates over time. What we've reached is an agreement with the federal government. There's still federal permitting. DFo pro- vides input. Federal approvals are required. but we believe that doing nothing is not a responsible thing when it comes to protecting the environment or the people, and the hundreds of thousands of people that live in the l ower Mainland. co MMent S bY Da ViD hahn on co MPtroller General rePort G. Coons: The Finance Minister said on Monday in regards to the report on b.c. Ferries and t ransl ink that the comptroller has done a very competent and thor -

british c olumbia Debates2492 Wednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 ough job. The ceo of b.c. Ferries, David h ahn, said the report was biased, nonsense, craziness and dumb. My question is to the Minister of t ransportation. Who does she agree with: the Finance Minister or the ceo of b .c. Ferries? Hon. S. Bond: i think the member opposite knows full well that in fact it was the government that requested the advice of the comptroller general. She is competent. She is capable. in fact, the Minister of Finance said exactly the same thing. We intend to consider every single one of her recommendations seriously. Mr.

Speaker: The member has a supplemental. G. Coons: The minister seems to forget that the office of the comptroller general is responsible for the overall quality and integrity of this government's financial man- agement and control systems, and she needs to support the comptroller general against outlandish and outra- geous accusations. The ceo of b.c.

Ferries shoots off his mouth, insults b.c. taxpayers and ferry users, and at a million dol- lars per year, the entire province knows he makes too much. in regards to the size of Mr. h ahn's paycheque, the Finance Minister said on Monday: "The Minister of t ransportation spoke, i think, for all of us when she said she was shocked when she found out the level of com- pensation the board of directors had agreed to." n ow, two issues are in front of us: the provocative and inflammatory statements from ceo h ahn and the total lack of accountability and scrutiny from b.c. Ferries.

Will the t ransportation Minister ask Mr. h ahn to retract his brazen, insulting statements and apologize to the comptroller general, and will she commit to putting b.c. Ferries under the Freedom of information a ct? Hon. S. Bond: We actually believe in the compe- tence of the comptroller general so much that in fact we asked her to do the report and received it. a t the risk of repeating not only what the Finance Minister said but what i will say for the second time: we take the report seriously. We asked for the advice.

We're going to consider every single recommendation, including the recommendation concerning freedom of information. acceSS to b.c. FerrieS inForMation H. Bains: l et's be clear. The only reason british c olumbians even know how much they're coughing up for Mr. h ahn's salary is because of the federal rules. The comptroller general has called for more accountabil- ity into b.c. Ferries, but this government continues to refuse to open b.c. Ferries to public scrutiny. My question is to the minister. Why won't the minis- ter agree to include b.c. Ferries under Foi? Hon. S.

Bond: a s we've said continuously since the moment we received the report from the competent comptroller general, we will consider every single one of her recommendations, including that one. [1420] but we're not going to stand on this side of the h ouse and listen to the member opposite talk about our legacy. l et's talk about the legacy of that government when it was in control. l et's face it. They bankrupted b.c. Ferries. it was shameful and embarrassing. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat, Member. We're not continuing until there's silence. c ontinue, Member. H. Bains: Very interesting.

The minister called the comp- troller general competent, but the ceo called it craziness and dumb. Will she stand up and defend the ceo? n ow let me go into another area here. The a uditor General's report yesterday raised some really red flags. but that report didn't even touch the salaries of b.c. Ferries, because the government is shielding the corpor- ation from public accountability. So my question again is to the minister. What are you afraid of? Why won't you agree to open b.c. Ferries to Foi? Hon. S. Bond: in fact, we asked for advice.

We asked about how we can ensure that the model that's in place is working as efficiently as possible. We have a series of recommendations, and we intend to consider every single one of them. but, you know, the member oppos- ite's legacy with b.c. Ferries continues. in fact, very shortly now we're going to see their legacy floated on the back of a barge off to a bu Dhabi. That's what the member opposite did with b.c. Ferries. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. b.c. FerrieS anD b.c. rail eXecutiVe SalarieS J.

Horgan: a s staggering as it is that the members on that side of the h ouse don't seem to think it's odd that we're paying a guy a million bucks to run a monopoly ferry system, i think they'll be even more surprised to learn that six years ago they privatized b.c . r ail, but they continue to pay the chief executive officer and the president $500,000 a year to run zero trains on 40 kilometres of track. n ow, they may have a miniature train set in the boardroom, but you've got four chief executive officers making $1.2 million — no trains. is that acceptable — a million bucks for the ferries, $1.2 million for no train?

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 2493 Hon. S. Bond: Well, in fact, it shows how little the member opposite actually does his homework. in fact, b.c. r ail Properties has a number of important respon- sibilities, including… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. S. Bond: …the disposal of surplus properties for revenue. They also look after the completion of sub- divisions to support economic development, and they monitor the very important b.c. investment railway partnership.

So there is work being done. in addition, like all of the crowns in british c olumbia, we in fact are going to review b.c. r ail Properties. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. J. Horgan: Well, i'll give the Minister of t ransporta- tion one more opportunity to do the right thing for the taxpayers of british c olumbia. Will she, first of all, call in Mr. h ahn to her office and tell him to mind his man- ners and then tell him that she's going to roll back his salary and, the second thing, call in b.c. r ail executives and say that their services are no longer required? Hon. S.

Bond: We have said consistently that we believe the comptroller general did an outstanding job. We disagree with Mr. h ahn. Mr. h ahn can actually defend his own remarks. [1425] but i'll tell you what. What the member opposite should look back to is…. l et's just look at what happened with b.c. Ferries under their leadership. i n fact…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Sit down, Minister. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. S. Bond: l et's just look at a fact. t o the member opposite: between 1991 and 1991, b.c. Ferries' debt increased…. interjections. Mr.

Speaker: Sit down, Minister. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Want to wind it up, Minister? Hon. S. Bond: i can hardly wait to wind it up. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. S. Bond: Very quickly, between 1991 and 1991, b.c. Ferries' debt went up by 1,800 percent under that government. [end of question period.] Petitions J. Horgan: i have a petition signed by over 500 british c olumbians calling on the government of the member for Vancouver–Point Grey to withdraw the hSt . Hon. M. Polak: i seek leave to make an introduction. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Introductions by Members Hon. M.

Polak: Joining us in the h ouse today is the c arrier Y outh Drum Group and their chaperones. The c arrier Y outh Drum Group is a group of teenage youth from the c arrier and Sekani territory. The youth participate in cultural programming to increase and strengthen their cultural identity. The drum group has spent the last two years learning the traditional clan songs and stories of their territory and performing for various celebrations, events and forums. They will be performing at the aboriginal child care con- ference in Vancouver.

They are a shley l owely, Jenny l owely, k erri Palmer, c hristine batoche, Wyonna batoche, t ammy a lexis, Shane Palmer, Sheldon batoche, k urtis a lec, e lijah George West and their chaperones — Vernaye Morgan, Sonya Sheppard and John a lec. Would the h ouse please make them welcome. Petitions C. James: i rise to present a petition opposing the imple- mentation of the hSt signed by over a thousand people. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. D. Donaldson: i rise to present a petition of over 480 people from seven communities in Stikine and also five

british c olumbia Debates2494 Wednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 communities in n echako l akes, calling on the govern- ment to scrap plans to implement the hSt . Mr. Speaker: Proceed. J. Kwan: i rise to table a petition. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. J. Kwan: i have a petition from the people of Vancouver–Mount Pleasant calling on the government to reinstate the arts cuts funding in british c olumbia. Orders of the Day Hon.

M. de Jong: i call, in c ommittee a, c ommittee of Supply — for the information of members, the esti- mates of the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General; and in this chamber committee stage debate on bill 20, the Miscellaneous Statutes a mendment a ct (n o. 2), 2009. [1430] Committee of the Whole House bill 20 — Mi Scellaneou S Statute S aMenDMent a ct (n o. 2), 2009 The h ouse in c ommittee of the Whole (Section

b) on bill 20; l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:32 p.m. on

section 1. L. Krog: i'm delighted to rise and ask a few questions around this very interesting provision. i'm just wonder- ing if the minister can explain the effect of

section 1 and why the change is being made. Hon. S. Thomson: before i respond to the ques- tion, i'd like to introduce the staff that are here with me: Grant Parnell, the assistant deputy minister of crown land administration in the ministry; l inda bates, our manager of legislation; and Judi Sigurdson, who is the manager of trade policy in the ministry. The purpose of the amendment is to…. a s the member opposite may know, currently ranchers and farmers are exempt from the a nimal Disease c ontrol a ct.

The pur- pose of this amendment is to apply that same exemption to a lberta farmers and ranchers, to be consistent with tilMa. This is for when they are purchasing livestock for their own farm operations only. L. Krog: i want to assure the minister that i'm here to get an education this afternoon around this issue. i have a few questions that might be helpful to me and might explain this fully to the public. There is a tilMa aspect to this, i gather, from the minister's response.

We're now supposedly putting british c olumbia ranchers and a lberta ranchers on the same footing. is there an advantage to british c olumbia ranchers arising out of this? [1435] Hon. S. Thomson: This is an advantage to b.c. farm- ers and ranchers. What it does is give them better access to ranchers and business opportunities in a lberta. it opens up those opportunities for them. it reduces the barriers to trade and reduces costs for them. L. Krog: i just wonder if the minister could be a bit more specific. it opens up opportunities.

Does this mean that a b.c. rancher, for instance, can now purchase an a lberta farm more easily and operate more easily in the province of a lberta? or does it mean that he can simply purchase livestock in a lberta and transport them back to british c olumbia more easily? in other words, what are the specifics to that advantage the minister is talking about? Hon. S. Thomson: Just to clarify one point to make sure the member opposite understands that we're deal- ing strictly with livestock in this case. This has nothing to do with in terms of purchasing farms or property. This is strictly related to livestock.

What it does is that it makes it easier for b.c. farmers and ranchers by exempting the a lberta farmers and ranchers and putting them on the same footing as b.c. farmers and ranchers in terms of recordkeeping and reporting requirements. L.

Krog: if i can kind of crystallize this for my mind…. i'm a cattle rancher in the c ariboo, and i want to buy some stock in a lberta, but i'm not a livestock dealer. if i'm a livestock dealer, of course, then i'm stuck with certain regulatory requirements, i assume, that are fairly onerous because of all the concerns around mad cow and everything else. a nd if the minister nods that i'm on the right track, that'll give me a hint that i am. but if i'm just your ordinary, run-of-the-range rancher and i want to buy ten head of a ngus out of e dmonton and bring them back, what this provision does is cut down the regulatory framework so that i can bring those back more easily.

Whereas if i was a livestock dealer, then i'm stuck with, i presume, regulatory and reporting requirements in order to exclude the possibil- ity of disease or whatever else may be an issue for the governments. Hon. S. Thomson: Just to be clear, these amendments allow the farmers in both jurisdictions to be exempt from the requirements for bonding and licensing. What

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 2495 we're dealing with here are individual ranchers with their own livestock that have been raised on their own farms dealing with an individual farmer and rancher in a lberta. [1440] The livestock dealers' requirements are, as the member opposite mentioned, much more strict because of the volumes they deal with, because of the fact they are moving cattle for other people and things like that. We're simply putting farmers and ranchers in b.c. and farmers and ranchers in a lberta on an even footing. L.

Krog: if i can understand it…. if i'm a rancher in the c ariboo and i go to a livestock dealer in e dmonton and purchase ten head, then the provisions around the a nimal Disease c ontrol a ct, etc., will apply to me and i'll have to meet a rigorous regulatory arrangement, so to speak.

Whereas if i'm a rancher in the c ariboo and i go to see my friend George in e dson and buy ten head, then i can bring those back without any concerns. Hon. S. Thomson: Just to be clear, this change does not make any change to the animal health require- ments, safety requirements, as far as that side of it. a ll it simply does is exempt a lberta ranchers and farmers, doing business with a b.c. farmer and rancher on their own cattle, from the reporting requirements. r ight now b.c. farmers and ranchers are exempt from that require- ment, so if they are selling into a lberta, they're currently excluded.

They're not subject to those same reporting requirements that livestock dealers are. What we're saying is that for an a lberta farmer and rancher, on his own livestock, dealing directly with a b.c. farmer and rancher…. When they are selling their own livestock, they are on the same footing in terms of not having to comply with the same reporting require- ments, exactly the same as we currently have for our b.c. farmers and ranchers. L.

Krog: if i get this straight, essentially, the purpose of this is to give an advantage to a lberta farmers now in dealing with b.c. farmers, which presently b.c. farmers enjoy in dealing with a lberta farmers, which gives us, arguably, comparative advantage. Hon. S. Thomson: The member opposite has essen- tially got it right. What it does is make it easier to sell and do business between farmers and ranchers in b.c. and a lberta on their own cattle — both ways.

The advan- tage flows both ways. it opens up the opportunities and makes it easier or gives an advantage or business oppor- tunities and reduces costs to b.c. farmers and ranchers. L. Krog: i think the minister is perhaps missing my point. i understood from his previous answer that right now a b.c. rancher gets to sell his cattle into a lberta without restriction,

whereas an a lberta farmer presently would face some restriction or prohibition on selling his cattle to a b.c. rancher in british c olumbia. is that the present situation? Hon. S. Thomson: There's not a prohibition. Those sales can currently occur, but under the current regu- lation, without this change and the reason the change is being proposed, that a lberta farmer, doing business with the b.c. rancher on his own cattle — selling them — would now be classified as a livestock dealer and have to go through those requirements of bonding and licens- ing and reporting.

What we're simply saying is that we're exempting the a lberta farmer and rancher from that requirement that the b.c. farmer and rancher currently has, in order to facilitate business between two farmers and ranchers. So as i said previously, the advantage goes both ways. L. Krog: Just so i'm clear, my point is that right now, the way i interpreted the minister's previous answers, as a b.c. farmer, i can sell my cattle to an a lberta rancher without incurring the provisions of this act,

whereas the a lberta rancher presently can't do that. We'll do this one step at a time. is that the situation now? [1445] Hon. S. Thomson: Y eah, the situation is that the current b.c. farmer and rancher is not classified as a livestock dealer if he's selling his own cows or his own livestock and dealing directly with another individual rancher in a lberta.

What we're simply saying is that we're putting the a lberta rancher on the same footing, opening up the opportunities for that b.c. rancher. if he is looking to do business with and to bring cattle breeding stock or cattle from a lberta that he'd like to purchase, it puts the a lberta farmer and rancher in the same category, reduces those requirements. So not considering that a lberta farmer and rancher a livestock dealer — that reduces the cost, generally reduces the cost of doing business for b.c. farmers and ranchers. it simply puts them on the same footing. L.

Krog: So if i get this straight, right now as a b.c. rancher i can sell my cattle to an a lberta farmer without prohibition,

whereas an a lberta farmer cannot sell his cattle to a b.c. farmer without, unless he…. if he did, he'd be a livestock dealer and have to register. is that correct? Hon. S. Thomson: Y es, that's correct. u nder the cur- rent regulation, he would be considered a dealer and subject to those reporting requirements — licensing, bonding. What we're saying is that when you're dealing with your own cattle, b.c. rancher to a lberta rancher…. This applies to a limited number of sales. We're not talking about the livestock dealers where volumes of

british c olumbia Debates2496 Wednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 cattle are moving. We're simply talking about business between an individual rancher in british c olumbia and an individual rancher in a lberta. L. Krog: So we've talked about selling. r ight now, i take it, a b.c. rancher can buy a lberta cattle from a rancher there and bring them back, again without pro- hibition,

whereas an a lberta rancher couldn't buy b.c. cattle and take them back without prohibition. is that right? Hon. S. Thomson: i'm not sure. i think the member is talking about prohibition. There is no prohibition either way in terms of individual ranchers in b.c. deal- ing with individual farmers in a lberta. There are health and safety requirements and biosecurity requirements and those kinds of things to meet. This doesn't deal with that.

What we're simply deal- ing with here is levelling the playing field as far as the reporting and bonding and licensing requirements so that an individual a lberta rancher is not considered a livestock dealer when he's dealing directly with an indi- vidual b.c. rancher. L. Krog: Just so i'm clear, we've got to the point that i want the minister to acknowledge, and i think he has acknowledged it. The fact is that this provision puts a lberta ranchers on a level playing field with b.c., when in fact, we have enjoyed an advantage up until this, and this is to comply with tilMa. i s that correct? [1450] Hon. S.

Thomson: The advantage to the b.c. produ- cer here is the fact that a b.c. producer — i'll just use an example — may want to buy a good breeding cow out of a lberta. r ight now — because of the additional require- ments they have, where that a lberta rancher would be considered a livestock dealer — that affects the trans- action costs. What we're doing is simply putting the b.c. rancher and the a lberta rancher on the same footing.

That reduces the cost and reduces barriers to b.c. farmers and ranchers doing business with a lberta farmers and ranchers when we're dealing strictly between a b.c. rancher and an a lberta rancher and strictly with cattle and livestock that are from their own operations.

Section 1 approved. on

section 2. L. Krog: i understand this change will allow for lay members to the board of management, the a ssociation of l and Surveyors, much like the l aw Society and other governing bodies of various professionals in the province. What i want to know is: is this a government-driven initiative, or is this a request from the b.c. l and Surveyors? is this a public request? in other words, where does the impetus for this change come from? Hon. S. Thomson: This change was supported by the a ssociation of b.c. l and Surveyors.

This is simply about broadening the perspective and making sure that the decisions that that association makes are well informed. c onsultation occurred with the land surveyors, and it is supported by that association.

Section 2 approved. on

section 3. L. Krog: What is the point of this particular change? The explanatory note indicates it changes the eligibility requirements for land surveying companies to whom a permit may be issued. i guess my first question is: what kind of permit are we contemplating, and why is the change necessary? Hon. S. Thomson: The permit process that currently exists — that isn't changing. That's the permit that the association provides to the company. What is changing by this are the provisions around the makeup of the companies, but the permitting process doesn't change. [1455] L.

Krog: i'd like concrete, simple examples that i can understand. So we've got two surveyors or three survey- ors now who operate a surveying company. it's l etnick bros. l td. or something — b .c. land surveyors. The effect of this legislation is that if those three b.c. land surveyors are now the only shareholders of that company, then they could perhaps sell 25 percent of their shares to a lawyer who could hold shares, and they'd still be entitled to get a permit to act as b.c. land surveyors. is that sort of the essence of this? Hon. S. Thomson: Y es. r ight now you can't do that.

With this change, the suggestion or the approach that the member opposite suggested could take place now under the change. L.

Krog: a s i understand it, then, the minister is confirming that right now if you're a land surveyor operating through a limited company — and the propri- etorship example is too obvious, but a limited company — in order to get a permit to operate as a licensed land surveyor facing all the professional obligations of the association, etc., that company can only belong to the land surveyors — not their spouses, not their cousins, aunts or uncles. it has to belong to the land surveyors, and this change will have the effect of allowing others to

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 2497 own shares in a company that operates a land surveying company. Hon. S. Thomson: The provisions that are being pro- posed with this change will still require the majority voting shares to be held by surveyors. L. Krog: The next question that flows from that is: is this a request from the land surveyors themselves? a nd if so, is the point of it simply to allow them to get other sources of capital, to spread income with spouses? What's the point of this, and is this in the public interest?

Y ou know, the hybridization of professions in terms of ownership may or may not be in the public interest, so i want to hear the minister's comments on that aspect of it as well. [1500] Hon. S. Thomson: The proposed changes will pro- vide relief to land-surveying companies regarding what i think are unnecessary restrictions in place on the ownership of the business currently. This will allow greater opportunity in terms of raising capital and could provide additional expertise. it's expected that b.c. companies will now be more competitive in the land surveying business.

These are currently the provisions that exist in a lberta, so it makes our companies more competitive. i think that's what is in the public interest. We want to make sure that our land-surveying companies are on a level playing field and have that opportunity to be more competitive. L. Krog: Just to confirm. This was, in fact, a request for this change from the board of management of the a ssociation of b.c. l and Surveyors? Hon. S. Thomson: c onsultation occurred. This change is supported by the a ssociation of b.c. l and Surveyors.

Section 3 approved. on

section 4. L. Krog: Just to confirm. This change is simply con- sequential on

section 1, i take it, in terms of including the definition. So if you reside in british c olumbia or a lberta…. a gain, it's to try and comply with tilMa. We're putting livestock dealers on an equal footing. is that the effect of it? Hon. S. Thomson: That's correct.

Section 4 approved. on

section 5. L. Krog: This section, i take it, is simply doing what probably most british c olumbians assumed it is, and that is that all the provisions of the e lections a ct gov- erning spending limits and all the regulation that goes with the general election will now apply in by-elections as well. Hon. M. de Jong: With one qualification to what the member said. These are the provisions that deal with candidate expenditures. a s the member knows, there are other parts of the act dealing with third party that are presently being litigated, and we purposely didn't touch any of those sections. The member is correct with respect to candidate expenditures.

Section 5 approved. on

section 6. J. Horgan: a s i foreshadowed in my second reading debates, i'm anxious to hear from the Minister of energy the rationale for removing transparency from the h ydro and Power a uthority a ct. i'm wondering if the minister could perhaps introduce the staff that are accompanying him here and then answer that question. Hon. B. Lekstrom: i will start by introducing the people and staff i have with me. We have, to my right, l es Macl aren and, to l es's right, Jennifer c hampion joining us here today. Thank you to the member for the question. The sec- tions are really a product of the 1960s in this piece of legislation. What we're attempting to do here today in

section 6 of bill 20 is to bring them up to date to reflect what the actual fact is today on what we do. a s of a pril 1, 2009, for example, all crown corporations, includ- ing b.c. h ydro, have been subject to open and non- discriminatory procurement requirements — under tilMa, for example. [1505] We believe that this is, from my perspective, an update. it will bring us in line with the modern-day procure- ment, whether it would be the different issues of power plants, as we're talking about. i know the member will get into that here in his future questions. J.

Horgan: i thank the minister for his answer, and i'm delighted to see both the capable staff joining him in here today looking dapper. i appreciate the member's response. We had talked off line about why we were using a miscellaneous amend- ment act to remove directly from the h ydro and Power a uthority a ct provisions around tenders and, more importantly, the opening of tenders. So that covers sec- tion 6.

british c olumbia Debates2498 Wednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 i'm wondering if the minister could direct me to or table documents at a later time or provide them to me at a later time — those references to b.c. bid and tilMa where we can determine how it is that contractors seek- ing opportunities from b.c. h ydro would be assured that the open tendering process would continue under these other provisions. Hon. B. Lekstrom: i certainly will endeavour to get you that information, Member, as far as what you've asked under the tilMa and the b.c. bid requirements for tendering. J. Horgan: i just want to touch briefly….

The minis- ter talked about modernizing the procurement process. c ertainly, we look at statutes here every day. There's often archaic language, and that's a challenge for con- temporary contractors. i certainly find a value in having these provisions con- tained directly in the h ydro and Power a uthority a ct, and i'm wondering if the minister could just, beyond the explanation he gave in his preliminary answer, explain how it is an improvement for those who are accessing statutes.

Were i seeking to bid on a construction project, i would first go to the b.c. h ydro act. a gain, with modern technology and the internet and so on, b.c. bid is a sim- pler way for modern procurement to take place, but i think there is some value in leaving these statutes or these clauses in place. c ould the minister suggest to me why the removal of these is important when these other processes exist? Hon. B. Lekstrom: The update really is necessary, and the question is a good one.

The scope is very narrow under 14 of the existing h ydro and Power a uthority a ct. it refers to power plants — what we're doing — and the reference is also to tenders. There are many other ways now, whether it be requests for proposals, requests for expressions of interest and so on. So this will bring it up. it also is broader. it will cover goods, services and con- struction, as well, under tilMa.

That's the information that we have said we would forward to the member as well. it broadens it out. it brings it into today's era. i understand the member's question. a s he said, people would go to b.c. h ydro. a lso, b.c. bid, for quite some time, has been utilized. i think most people are aware of it, but if there is an issue, such as a link from b.c. h ydro's website, we would endeavour to do that. if it's not there already, i believe it would be. J. Horgan: i firstly want to commend the minister for not using acronyms.

That's the trap that ministers of all political stripes fall into. r ather than saying "request for proposal," they say "rFP ." Those that are reading the debate or watching the debate may not know what the heck we're talking about, so good on the minister for that. [1510] i just want to touch, then, on

section 15 of the h ydro and Power a uthority a ct. That, again, is the

section which is being repealed with respect to the prices then being made known. i want to just get an assurance from the minister that existing provisions within tilMa or b.c. bid ensure that all bidders have access to not only the successful bid but to all bids that were submitted. My understanding is that that's guaranteed under

section 15 of the act. Will that guarantee be continued with these new provisions? Hon. B. Lekstrom: i can definitely give the member that guarantee. a s a matter of fact, it will be as of n ovember 3, 2009. b.c. h ydro has been making this information available on b.c. bid's website, as well, for both tenders and requests for proposals. This actually opens it up — greater transparency and the fact that you don't have to be there at the opening per se with the new technology that we have and the advancements. i think the public of british c olumbia should be very happy with what they'll be able to access and see formally.

Section 6 approved. on

section 7. J. Horgan: For those that are trying to follow without the aid of the documents that the minister and i and other members have in front of them,

section 7 is called the transitional provision of this repealing of sections 14 and 15 of the h ydro and Power a uthority a ct. i'm wondering if the minister could just walk us through sections 7(

a) and 7(

b) so there's clarity on the dates. of course, it would come into force at royal assent, but you did make reference to n ovember 3, 2009, in your previous answer in terms of the transparency and access to tenders under the former

section 15. h ow will the transition process work? Hon. B. Lekstrom:

Section 7, the transition, is really going to ensure that, rather than during this transition period — and as the member said, until this bill receives royal assent, it doesn't come into play — we can actually do the opening as it is today, which isn't just at their office. a s i said, going back to n ovember 3 was the date. it just bridges that so there isn't an inequity that people would fall back and say, "o h, those had to be opened at the office of b.c. h ydro," when in fact they're actually posted now on b.c. b id on line. J. Horgan: i thank the minister for that answer. i'm just curious. This n ovember 3 date — i don't believe bill

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 2499 20 had been introduced at that point in time. is there any magical reason for that? i assume that h ydro put forward their request for legislation through the leg. counsel. The papers were processed. Were they jump- ing the gun a bit on the n ovember 3 date, or was it just convenient to do so in anticipation of the repealing of these sections? [1515] Hon. B. Lekstrom: n ovember 3, to the member, for information, was actually…. That day was chosen…. That was the day after this bill was introduced.

That was, i guess, the requirement under that for that date. The other. These changes were actually drafted in February for the spring session, which would allow us to work in conjunction with the requirements under tilMa for crown procurement practices on that. J. Horgan: is this the only amendment that the minis- ter anticipates with respect to b.c. h ydro to be compli- ant with tilMa, or will there be other amendments in future miscellaneous amendments? Hon. B. Lekstrom: We're not aware of any other changes that would be needed.

Section 7 approved. on

section 8. N. Macdonald: These are all pretty straightforward. interjections. The Chair: Members. N. Macdonald: basically, the provisions we're going to look at here that relate to amendments under this look pretty straightforward. The people i've talked to seem to feel that they're fairly benign. Just a couple of questions. The first one is on

section 8, which is an amendment to

section 8 of the Forest a ct. it changes the maximum time for the determination of the aacs from five to ten years and gives greater power to the chief forester in determining the annual allowable cut by extending the maximum time that she or he must make an order. Just the question: an explanation of why that change was made? Hon. P .

Bell: The chief forester still determines in his or her own assessment when the appropriate time to do a t Sr is. h owever, it will allow the chief forester to focus the resources in areas where there are changed circumstances. in areas that the chief forester, in their determination, believes are remaining consistent in terms of the circumstances — the health of the forest, the conditions of the forest in a given area — it simply won't require them to do an assessment when in their judgment it is not necessary. it just creates flexibility for the chief forester. N.

Macdonald: The changed circumstances, i pre- sume, would have to do with infestations, perhaps, or a beetle kill. Just maybe related to that is one of the con- cerns that has been expressed, which is just about the lack of inventory information that we have right now. With this change, is there any concern that that would be problematic, or does the minister not see that as a concern? Hon. P . Bell: The member asked initially what sorts of circumstances might trigger the chief forester's decision to do a t Sr earlier than a ten-year period or a five-year period. h e pointed out beetle infestations.

That would be an example of one.

There may be other reasons why the chief forester would want to initiate a t Sr — as an example, if one were to enter into an extensive fertilization program and wanted to monitor the results and determine whether that would create a potential uplift for the area; or land use decisions, where components of the land are pre- served for one reason or another; perhaps a species-at- risk initiative, treaty measures and those sorts of things. [1520] The chief forester would look at all of the various circumstances that would impact the annual allowable cut in a given t Sr and then make his determination on whether it was appropriate to engage in a timber supply review at that point in time.

There could be a variety of reasons. Some of the ones the member pointed out already. o ther reasons could include land use decisions, species-at-risk initiatives, monitoring the incremental growth of the forest. The member mentioned inventory as a concern. Would inventory information become depleted as a result of this? The chief forester is simply looking for the flexibility to not have to do a t Sr in an area where he believes the conditions remain the same as they did on his previous timber supply review. The current rules don't allow that to happen.

The current rules require the chief forester to do a timber supply review after five years. This creates the flexibility for him to make the deci- sion of his determination, and it is a statutory deci- sion, not a political decision. So the chief forester is the one, ultimately, who has the responsibility to make that determination. N. Macdonald: Just the last question, then. Presumably, this was driven by a request from the chief forester in terms of trying to create a framework that would work more efficiently.

british c olumbia Debates2500 Wednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 Hon. P . Bell: That's correct.

Section 8 approved. on

section 9. N. Macdonald: This provides for stumpage amounts to be calculated with the approval of the minister, based on a cruise of the timber rather than the volume reported in the scale of the timber. r eally, just one question on that around: what are the circumstances that this sort of a change is intended for? Hon. P . Bell: We already have the ability to sell wood this way through the b.c. t imber Sales program, through the it Sls, or innovative timber sale licences.

We want to be able to use those same principles for pricing timber in tenured volume as well, and particularly as it relates to homogenous stands of pine beetle–damaged timber. So the intent is to be able to sell stands where the stand is very homogenous, where it's a relatively simple stand structure, to licensees who hold tenures, rather than using a scale-based system, cruising the stand and selling it and charging for the stand in that way. N. Macdonald: Just quickly to build on that, then.

This is seen as a tool that would be used in an excep- tional way rather than a general way. it's just a tool that would be used in very few circumstances, or is it some- thing that the minister would see using more regularly? Hon. P . Bell: initially, i think we believe this is a tool we would use in the pine beetle stands in specific cir - cumstances where it's a relatively homogenous stand. but i think it has broader applications, and i think that it offers some very real advantages to the way we cur - rently sell timber.

When the stand is purchased as a whole and it is 100 percent sunk cost on the part of the licensee, i believe that creates a stronger incentive to recover maximum value from that stand.

The member knows that that's a personal priority of mine — that i want to see us captur- ing more value from the stands. it eliminates a lot of the questions in a stand about tops, about grade 4 issues, about all of those sorts of chal- lenges that come to bear. i like the model. i think it's a better way of charging for wood. a t this point the intent is to use it primarily for pine beetle–infested stands, but i would not want the member to think that we aren't considering this as a broader tool if we find that it is suc- cessful in achieving our objectives. N.

Macdonald: Maybe just to spend a bit more time with it, because it sounds like it's one of the tools that you're going to use, as you say, to make sure that you get better utilization out of the wood that's there. So the intention is, as i hear the minister say, to use it as a trial for a certain period of time.

What sort of think- ing is the minister doing about how you evaluate the effectiveness of the trial? is there a plan in place to go for a specific period of time and have a specific evaluation to see if it's an accurate way of moving and it achieves the results that the minister wants? [1525] Maybe the minister could take some time and just explain the thinking around that. Hon. P .

Bell: We'll be monitoring the stands that are being influenced by this sort of a pricing system to see if we are attaining the objectives, particularly as it relates to maximizing value from the stand and decreasing waste volumes that are left behind in the stand. i'm interested in seeing us piloting this, primarily in mountain pine beetle areas for now, but i'm interested to see how it would be received in other areas.

So it is, i think, something that will take several years to move across the province. i don't want to suggest that there's a preconceived conclusion here that it will be successful. i think we have to monitor it closely and make sure that it is achieving the intended result, but we want to have it as a tool so that we can extend it beyond where we're at right now. i think, also, that this is a very helpful tool from the perspective of bioenergy.

We've chatted on a number of occasions about bioenergy initiatives and capturing all of the stem as opposed to just the merchantable com- ponent of the stem. h ow do you do that, and how do you allocate that timber out to different licensees for use in bioenergy facilities — whether it's pellets, electrical energy or combined heat and power, or whatever it hap- pens to be? This is, we think, another tool that can help achieve that objective. a number of different reasons. it creates a new tool in the tool box. initial use will be primarily in the pine beetle stands.

We'll be monitoring it very closely to see if we're getting the results that are expected. We can still use either tool. it doesn't mean that we can only sell volume using this model. We can still use our scale- based systems that we've always used in the past. Then we'll make decisions going forward on whether we think this has greater applicability across stands that have a variety of species as well as homogenous stands. N.

Macdonald: So that's one piece in terms of putting a price on the forest, but you still have tools that you'll need to force the full removal of that. e ven having paid for it, perhaps there still wouldn't be the economics for a company to remove all of the wood. Y ou're thinking of starting this in the pine beetle areas. Then, if it is something that proves successful, the min- ister sees expanding this to other parts of the province over a period of time. but the initial area will be in the

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 2501 pine beetle area around Quesnel, Prince George. is that the thinking? Hon. P . Bell: That's correct — and down into the Williams l ake area, as well; perhaps into the o kanagan. n ow we're starting to see stands there that have been hit. The Merritt area is another area that we could consider. it'll be a tool that's in the tool box. The initial focus, as the member points out, will be in the pine-dominated stands. a s we go forward, if we find success, we'll consider using it in other areas as well.

Section 9 approved. on

section 10. N. Macdonald: This changes the Forest a ct,

section 128, and it provides the minister the ability to use orders- in-council to allow log exports to include residual wood products up to 5,000 bone-dry units. h ere, again, maybe just an explanation to begin with by the minister of the reason for the change. [c. t revena in the chair.] Hon. P . Bell: in the past, in order to allow for export of either hog or chips, the permitting process was by order-in-council. This gives the Minister of Forests the authority to make that decision as a statutory decision, as opposed to taking it to order-in-council.

Section 10 approved. on

section 11. [1530] N. Macdonald: a gain, this is a change to the Forest a ct. it allows the cabinet, essentially, to repeal by regu- lation this

section respecting the area-based allowable annual cut trial program. it doesn't seem to be particu- larly problematic. h ow is the area-based aac trial pro- ceeding now? h ow is that going? Hon. P . Bell: We believe that we're having good suc- cess on this pilot. it was due to terminate shortly, so the initial thought was that we would extend it by legisla- tion to a new timeline. i reconsidered that option and decided to create the flexibility to do it by regulation rather than bringing it to the h ouse. i think the question the member asked is: how is the pilot going?

We think we're seeing some good success in this area and would like to continue it for a period of time. That's why this particular

section is here. N. Macdonald: i think the final question is: is there any sense as to how long a period this will extend to? c learly, February was too short a time. but are we look- ing at years from now? or is it a pilot that will simply have a few more months to go on? Just a sense of how long the minister is looking at studying this. Hon. P . Bell: initially, we were thinking it might be just another year. We wanted to create the flexibility by putting in the date by regulation. r ealistically, we're thinking probably two years.

Section 11 approved. on

section 12. N. Macdonald: This seems to go back to the…. Well, it does go back to the revitalization plan, which was six years ago. Just a question as to why these changes would be made under the auspices now, six years later. Just an explanation of, i guess, why this is being done now. Hon. P . Bell: We've not yet completed the deletions from the area-based tenures, so we need additional time to complete those deletions. N. Macdonald: Does the minister have a sense of the time frame? Hon. P . Bell: Depending on whether i turn to my right or my left, i got answers ranging from one to three years.

This is primarily the wood that's being allocated to both first nations and woodlots. That's why it's taking a bit more time to identify the specific areas in area-based tenures that are appropriate for a first nations tenure or for a woodlot tenure.

Section 12 approved. on

section 13. N. Macdonald: Just along the same lines. With this change here, as i understand it, the holders of tree farm licences are now going to be compensated for the reduc- tion in their cut. Just an explanation there of why this change, and then we'll go from there. Hon. P . Bell: This applies specifically to tFls and areas that were deleted as part of the revitalization act in tFls for woodlots, first nations, bct S, community forests — that sort of thing. [1535] The Forest a ct didn't contemplate compensation for tFls and did contemplate compensation for volume- based tenures.

So this is necessary in order to complete the compensation requirements under the revitalization act specific to tFl holders.

british c olumbia Debates2502 Wednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 N. Macdonald: Just to understand with the tFls. When private land was removed, there was no compen- sation to the crown. Maybe i just don't understand how the tFls work. is it now the case that the tFls are going to be treated the same as…? or was it always the case they were going to be treated the same as the other tenures that were held in the province in terms of compensation?

Was that always the intent, and it simply wasn't laid out in the lan- guage, or is this something that has changed from what was intended when this first took place six years ago? Hon. P . Bell: That's correct. i should just highlight for the member opposite that we've always had the ability to compensate for improvements in the tFls — so roads, bridges, planning, that sort of thing. This was for aac reduction specific to the tFl. because of the nature of tFls, in the past you wouldn't have contemplated that. but because this is an extraction from the tFl, it's believed to be fair to compensate for that purpose.

Sections 13 and 14 approved. on

section 15. S. Simpson:

Section 15,

part 6, the housing and social development amendments section, deals with the c ommunity l iving a uthority a ct.

Section 15 of the bill repeals a number of sections about the composition of the board under the c ommunity l iving a uthority a ct. First of all, it says: "a ll directors, other than a director referred to in subsection (4), must have the necessary skills, qualifications and experience to direct the author- ity." That now is being removed as a requirement under this section. c ould the minister tell us: why would he remove a

section of the bill that talks about and obligates that dir- ectors should have skills, qualifications and experience to direct the authority? Hon. R. Coleman:

Section 5 establishes a board of 11 directors comprised of a majority of directors who fit the definition of "community living support," who are significantly connected to those individuals. t wo members must have a developmental disability.

That's the current provision. [1540] The proposed amendment repeals the requirement that the board consist of a majority of directors who fit the definition and thereby doesn't require also the subsection (2) of the same section. basically, what this amendment is going to do is enable us to make a selec- tion to the board of members from a wider pool of individuals, bringing the board in line with provincial crown corporation operations. S. Simpson: What it says to me is that the board, which…. u nder

section 5, the "c omposition of board," "The board consists of up to 11 directors appointed by the minister," which is all good and fine. but the sections (2), (3) and (4) that this bill 20 will repeal removes some significant components in terms of some of the people and the interests that are made up on that board and provides no guarantees of those interests, which are cer- tainly legitimate to the community living authority and to families who are involved in these activities. a gain, i guess it comes back to the question i have.

Why has the minister chosen to remove a reference in the current legislation that says "…members of the board have to have the skills, qualifications and experi- ence to direct the authority," and stay silent on that ques- tion in terms of this legislation? Hon. R. Coleman: Just for the member's assistance here, that

section that was in there before says: "a ll dir- ectors, other than a director referred to in subsection (4), must have the necessary skills…." The two sections — the sections go together. We have crown corporation board guidelines that basically say people have to have the skill sets to be dir - ectors, and they're selected through a board selection process through the board resourcing office of govern- ment.

What we're doing is repealing that and bringing it back into line with the amendment so that it's for the wider pool of individuals to also match up to how we do every other crown corporation in government with regards to selection of board members. They are selected based on their skills and what the board skill set needs. it doesn't matter which crown it is. Sometimes you need one person that's good on legal, somebody good on financial, someone good on certain things. Y ou actually build that board around that.

There are guidelines within government for how that takes place, so it doesn't need to be in here because this was an exception clause versus a directive clause. S. Simpson: it's interesting that you would remove something that explicitly refers to the requirement for that skill set in the authority. but moving on to

section 5(3), which is also dealt with by this and repealed under this legislation. What 5(3) says is: "Subject to subsection (2) and

section 6 (2) (c), a majority of directors must be (

a) individuals referred to in the definition of 'com- munity living support', or (

b) individuals who have a significant connection to the individuals referred to in paragraph (a), including family members." it seems to me, and the minister can correct me, that this is the

section that ensures that a number of people who will be on the board will actually be people who have a direct relationship to the services of the author - ity, and they will have that relationship by being family members of people who have a developmental disabil-

british c olumbia DebatesWednesday, n ovember 18, 2009 2503 ity or fit the definition of members of community living support. c ould the minister tell us: why would the ministry make the decision to remove stakeholders — and this will be true in section (4), clearly, which requires that two of the directors must be individuals with a develop- mental disability?

So sections (3) and (4) are removing the people who have the most direct interest as stakeholders in this and providing no requirement at all — not a single require- ment here — that those groups who have the vested interest, because of family members or because they have disabilities themselves, are going to have any rep- resentation on this board. Why would the minister do that? Hon. R. Coleman: They're not precluded from con- tinuing.

Those that are there will continue to serve. if the member looks at subsection (6) of the same act, it also says: "The board must establish an advisory committee to the board composed of individuals referred to in the definition of 'community living support'." [1545] This is a $700 million operation. We were finding that, as far as the understanding and the development of long-term business plans dealing with the issues around wait-lists and that sort of thing, it was important to add some additional expertise on the board, and the makeup of the legislation actually restricted the ability to do that.

We've made that decision based on that, and we will have the advisory committee to the board as defined in the legislation. S. Simpson: The minister is saying "it doesn't pre- clude." That's not the problem here. The problem is that this

section quite rightly, in my view, in fact obligates that those folks have some representation, that they have a role on the board of c ommunity l iving b.c. n ow, i understand that c ommunity l iving b.c. has its problems, and i understand that there are challenges in c ommunity l iving b.c. but the reality is that this requires people to be on the board. The minister may talk about an advisory committee, but there is a distinct difference between sitting on an advisory committee and sitting on a board of directors. They're not the same thing, and i'm sure the minister knows that.

Since the minister intends to remove all obligation of representation from families or people with develop- mental disabilities from this board — which will guar - antee that not one single person who has a connection to developmental disabilities is obliged to be on this board — nowhere will that be a requirement. it is today; it won't be when this legislation passes. Why would the minister do that? c an the minister tell that community what assurances they have that they're going to have any representation at that board table at all? Hon. R. Coleman: The member is correct. We're making the change.

That is the change in the legislation. There will be an advisory committee to the board as set out in legislation, and that advisory committee will be fully struck. We may choose to disagree that this would come out, but that's what this

section does. i don't think there's any further explanation i can give the member than, actually, that's what we're doing. S. Simpson: Just for those people who are involved with c ommunity l iving b.c…. i know that those people who face, sometimes, the challenges related to the work at c ommunity l iving b.c. can now know that they will have additional challenges, because this government has just said that the people who have disabilities, the fam- ilies of people who have disabilities, are not worthy of playing a role in the leadership of this organization.

We are going to rip up the sections of this act that ensure that they have a role in the leadership of this organization. it's gone now.

That is sad, and it's unfortunate, and the minister may say that this is what we're going to do, and he truly, i'm sure, is going to do exactly that. but the loss will be to the families and people with developmental disabilities, and it will be a loss to the quality of work that this organization provides because they've removed those people from the board. it is a sad day that those people no longer have a role to play as legitimate stakeholders in this, because the government has chosen to close the door on them and turn their back on them. Hon. R.

Coleman: i am prepared to accept the criti- cism as to what the structure of the board will be, but i won't sit here and have somebody demean the people that work hard at c ommunity l iving b.c. every day and say that their quality of performance is going to go down because we're bringing in a professional board to help the organization build long-term plans. i won't accept the fact that he makes comments about the corporation being in trouble because, quite frankly, the member knows very well that the funding for wait- lists has gone up. h e knows very well they've just finished the whole process of dealing with iQ 70. i can accept the fact that there's a difference of opinion on whether this should or should not be in the act. i think that's fine. but i can't accept just taking what i thought, at the end there, was a shot at the people that i think work very hard for developmentally disabled people in this prov- ince every single day at this crown corporation, who i think have come a very long way in a short period of time building the programs and stuff as a management team and as the people who deliver on the ground on behalf of those folks.

british c olumbia Debates2504 Wednesday, n ovem

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1118pm-05
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1118pm 05
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5f05214c755674f96ee1ec8d7b98beb61e7f4652

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