March 1,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLII No. 2

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Dicks): Order, please!

The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am sure all hon. members of the House are very much aware

of the great showing that was made in Norway in the last two weeks. I stand

today to especially congratulate -

MR. SPEAKER: I should say that if the member has consent

of the House to address the House - it would be a bit out of order but but I

think we extend him the courtesy, normally.

Go ahead.

MR. MURPHY: - to pass on congratulations through Your

Honour to Newfoundland's first athlete to ever win a medal at the Olympics. The

very first Newfoundlander to win a medal at the Olympics is Dwayne Norris.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MURPHY: I know we all feel it was an extremely

tremendous achievement. The Canadian team did exceptionally well as did all

Canadian athletes and I am sure all members of the House would want to pass on

to Dwayne our sincere congratulations.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to echo the

comments made by the Member for St. John's South in congratulating the Canadian

Olympic Team, and especially Dwayne Norris, of whom every time his buddies were

interviewed they referred to him as the Newf. And Dwayne Norris certainly didn't

feel out of place when they referred to him as Newf. I saw every interview that

was done by CTV and all his colleagues always referred to him as Newf and he

certainly never felt out of place, and he certainly didn't look out of place

when he was on that ice in Lillehammer - a far cry from what the hon. the Member

for St. John's South used to look like when he was on the ice, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: I would like to join in and make unanimous

the expression of the Member for St. John's South of our pride in our native

son, Dwayne Norris, receiving a medal as part of the Canadian Olympic Team. He

is not the first Olympian from Newfoundland, as the hon. the Member for St.

John's South, and we all know, but we are very proud of that and we are only

disappointed that he did not get his chance for a second shot on goal because I

am sure he would have made us prouder still, if he had gotten that chance.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On behalf of hon. members, I would like to

welcome a delegation from the Town of Milltown, Bay d'Espoir, Mr. Jerry Kearley,

Mayor, Doug Sutton, Deputy Mayor, and Mr. Clyde Sutton representing the Canadian

Legion and the senior citizens from Greenwood Manor, of Milltown.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, during the debate on the motion after

the Throne Speech was delivered, the Premier spoke with a great deal of passion

about the need for the Federal and Provincial Governments to consult the people

on issues involving the restructuring of the fishery. In fact, he said it is not

good enough for either government to say, here is what it is and then do it;

consultation must precede the plan. Those are his words, and I say to him, we

agree fully; and it is exactly that process, Mr. Speaker, that we say government

should take before proceeding with Hydro privatization, so I want to ask him,

will he take to heart his own good advice that the gave to the Federal

Government and to us yesterday in the Legislature, will he put aside the Hydro

privatization legislation until he has consulted fully with the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: No, Mr. Speaker. The government proposes

to bring the proposal to the House of Assembly for full disclosure of all of the

details and for full debate on all of the aspects of it and when that is done I

am confident that Members of the House of Assembly who look at it fairly and

objectively will come unreservedly to the conclusion that there are compelling

reasons to proceed with privatization.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, it is too bad we have a double

standard here; nevertheless, that is the government's decision and I wanted to

find out precisely whether they would consider their own advice in dealing with

matters of this nature. And I wouldn't bet the House on the members in this

Legislature supporting, without question, the Premier's proposal, I can tell him

that right now as well.

Now, yesterday, Mr. Speaker, as well, the Premier said that

he isn't at all concerned if business and investors make great profits in this

Province because they can't make profits without creating jobs; those were the

Premier's words yesterday during the debate on the Throne Speech. Now,

obviously, the sale of Hydro would be the exception to that particular rule

because huge profits are going to flow out of this Province. It won't create one

new dollar of new business investment and it won't create any new jobs, surely

the Premier can't deny that. I want to ask him: Will he, can he guarantee that

the privatization of Hydro will create new jobs and will stimulate new business

investment in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, the privatization of Hydro

will cause the investment of hundreds of millions of dollars as equity,

displacing the hundreds of millions of dollars of debt for which the Government

of this Province now has ultimate responsibility and is on the credit of the

Province. So it will cause hundreds of millions of dollars to be invested by

people who have confidence in the economy of this Province. Now, at the same

time that that occurs, it will greatly strengthen the private sector economy of

this Province. You can count on two hands the sizeable companies that we have in

the private sector of this Province. Look at the level of corporate income tax

in Newfoundland and Labrador compared with, say, Ontario. Ontario has - what,

forty times our population? - no, eighteen or twenty times our population but

they probably have fifty times our tax from corporations. We want to have our

fair share of it. We want to increase the private sector activity in this

Province and creating a company like the new Hydro would be, would greatly

strengthen the private sector. It would be one of the TSE 300 companies - one of

the biggest 300 companies in Canada and would be part of the TSE 300. It is not

included in the TSE 300 now. It is not a private sector, it is a Crown agency,

in effect. So, Mr. Speaker, it will add greatly to the economic vibrancy and

activity, and the future of the private sector in this Province will be

substantially enhanced by any such endeavour.

MR. SIMMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I would challenge the Premier on

it. We'll see when we get into debate on the legislation whenever it comes

forward but, in my view, it will be one of the biggest mistakes ever made by any

government in the history of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SIMMS: Because it is not going to be in the best

interest of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, yesterday during the

debate as well, the Premier talked about the need - and he just alluded to it

there then, about the intention to create and improve business climate and all

the rest of it. Yesterday he also talked about the need to give businesses a tax

break, reduce the burden of taxation on businesses, which is rather ironic since

his government is the government that actually piled the taxes on in the first

place over the last four or five years.

Now the fact is, the Premier's intention to reduce - or his

plan; I am not sure it will come about - business taxes, is because he knows

that businesses are going to have to pay higher taxation anyway, because of the

tax plan that now exists, and in order to offset that, he knows that they are

going to have to pay more for electricity after Hydro privatization, so his

intention is to try to reduce taxes because they know they can't pay both high

taxes and high electricity rates.

Now that is his plan, Mr. Speaker, and I want to ask him:

Isn't it true, or wouldn't he agree, that in fact any money that businesses

might save from his reduction in tax plan that he talks about is simply going to

be siphoned off in higher electricity rates? Isn't that the fact?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: The hon. member has made a lot of wrong

statements in the House. Seldom has anything been so clearly inaccurate, wrong

or unfounded.

MR. SIMMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary, the hon. the Leader

of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, so the Premier is saying there

won't be any increase in electricity rates for businesses in this Province as a

result of Hydro privatization; is that what he is saying here today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: No. What I said was, the statement the

hon. member made couldn't be more unfounded or more incorrect, and I stand by

that comment. This suggestion that we are somehow giving them a special tax

break so we can offset the increase that there is going to be, he is totally

incorrect in his whole representation of it, and when the full story comes out,

when the Budget is delivered by the Minister of Finance, when the details of the

proposal for Hydro privatization made known so that all of the people of the

Province can participate in the debate on it, as soon as that is done, people

will become very much aware of how incorrect and totally unfounded the hon.

member's comments are.

MR. SIMMS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I don't know how the Premier can

suggest I was incorrect. He just confirmed that, in fact, he can't say there

won't be an increase in electricity rates for businesses. He just confirmed what

I said, and the reality is that their reduction in business taxes is to help

offset that.

Now I want to ask him, in my final supplementary: Does the

government also intend to bring in any kind of a tax break for the consumers,

the home owners, on the high electricity rates they will have to pay as a result

of Hydro privatization?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: There is no connection between Hydro

privatization and taxes whatsoever - none at all. What the government proposes

to do with respect to creating a better tax climate, it started last year in the

Budget. We intend to pursue that. We intend to continue to bring in policies and

bring policies before the House that will be beneficial to industry and which

will create a far better climate within which industry can work in this

Province, and will act as an inducement for new economic development activity to

be attracted to this Province, which is what we want to do.

Mr. Speaker, I just ask the Leader of the Opposition to

simply wait until he sees the Budget, and wait until perhaps in a few days when

he has the information tabled on what is involved in Hydro privatization. Then

he won't have to speculate on what the rate level might be for industry or might

not be. He will know and he will be able to comment on what the prospective

rates probably are, and he will be able to handle it far more effectively at

that time and I will be able to answer questions far more effectively at the

same time.

MS. VERGE: You have the information now! So answer now!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to

the President of Treasury Board. We've learned that at least 200 teachers -

about 3 per cent of the full-time teachers of this Province - have filed for

retirement before the end of March to avoid the loss of severance pay. Of

course, this is probably going to cause a similar stampede in hospitals and

other places in the public sectors with regard to public employees in this

Province. I'm sure the minister has been monitoring this. Can he tell us the

numbers of people who have filed for early retirement or for retirement?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, I can't give him numbers up to

date today. I think there were probably upwards of eighty by the end of last

week. Yes, that situation does exist. It's unfortunate that it exists but it

certainly does exist.

MR. SPEAKER: Supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, we've learned that it is over

200, not eighty. I'm surprised that the minister is attempting to mislead the

people. I'm sure it isn't deliberate.

This unexpected retirement of public employees will affect

the delivery of government services. The problems will be most acute of course

in the hospitals and in our schools. Why did the minister propose to cut off

severance on March 31 when he knew it would cause a massive exodus of teachers

from the classrooms and employees from the wards of our hospitals?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to remind

the hon. member that we are into a collective bargaining process. The process

essentially -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. BAKER: The hon. member might listen if he wants to

understand what that process is. The process essentially is that the employer

tables an initial proposal; the employees, represented by their union, also

table an initial proposal. Then the normal process is that for a period of time

- days, weeks, maybe several months - there is collective bargaining, there is

discussion.

Now what we have said to our employees is that we have

outlined to them the financial problems this Province faces, number one. Number

two, we said to them that we would prefer not to deal with this problem by

reducing normal take-home pay of employees. We would prefer not to deal with the

problem through planned lay-offs in the public service, so we have set those

parameters that we prefer not to discuss at this point in time, and then we have

tabled a list of possibilities of items for discussion, of suggestions where we

feel our objectives could be achieved, and we said to the unions: We look

forward to having a look at your alternatives and discussing the alternatives to

achieve our objective.

So, Mr. Speaker, this is a normal collective bargaining

process. What is unfortunate about it is that all of a sudden a particular union

has taken the government's initial proposal and, I believe, gone to the

membership and said: Government has said they are going to legislate all of

this.

That is not what has happened, and it is unfortunate that

irresponsible behaviour has created the panic in the system. So, Mr. Speaker, I

recognize this may cause problems in the system, but I also recognize it is as a

result of the total abandonment of the collective bargaining process by one of

the unions in particular.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, the minister recognizes the

problem that he has created, and I thoroughly agree with him that the problem is

in the collective bargaining process, but it is not because of the unions. It is

because of what the minister and this government is doing with the collective

bargaining process.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, he has admitted it is a ploy.

The minister told CBC Here and Now last week that cutting severance pay

was just a threat - like threatening wife beating - something he has the option

of doing, but does not mean he will. That is what he told CBC, Mr. Speaker; but

this government has a history in collective bargaining where your deeds match

your threats. That is what this government has done, and that is why -

MR. SPEAKER: The question, please.

MR. A. SNOW: - the hysteria is out there. That is why the

fear is out there, Mr. Speaker, in the hospitals and in the classroom -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

If the member has a question -

MR. A. SNOW: My question, Mr. Speaker, this severance pay

cut, if this was a ploy in collective bargaining, and the minister wants to

really start the true process of collective bargaining, if he wants to fall in

the path that the Premier suggested - unless the Premier was misleading the

people yesterday - of co-operation, why doesn't he remove this threat from the

bargaining table now, Mr. Speaker? He has the option of doing that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the hon. member

opposite, as well as the leadership of that union, would love it if we came in

and said to everybody, our starting position is everybody gets a 50 per cent

salary increase, but that is not the reality. That is not the reality.

The reality is that we have a fiscal problem. The reality is

that we had a problem last year which we solved through a temporary measure.

That was the reality of last year. This year we still have part of that problem

left, so we go to the unions and we lay the case before them, baring our breasts

in terms of all the facts and figures. We lay the case before them. We say: We

have a problem. We say: Here are the things we would like to discuss, but if you

want to substitute other things, please feel free to do so. Let's sit down and

let's work out this problem that we all have. Let's work out the solution

together. How much more co-operative can we get, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to

direct a question to the Minister of Health.

On January 29 of this year a forty-six year old man,

Sylvester Lynch, died of a heart attack at his home in Bay Bulls while waiting

for an ambulance to arrive in response to a 911 call.

Now the ambulance was dispatched from the Health Sciences

Complex and arrived on the scene forty minutes later. The minister received a

full account of this incident on February 9th. Can he explain why a man was

allowed to die, waiting forty minutes for an ambulance from the Health Sciences

Complex when a fully equipped, fully trained unit was available just three

minutes away at the Witless Bay fire department?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, this matter was not brought to

my attention at the time that the hon. member said, but I did find out about it

quite recently and I am having the matter investigated.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When the ambulance

finally arrived at his home it was totally unequipped to deal with the emergency

through the 999 even though they were told the person had a heart attack.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Nine one-one.

MR. SULLIVAN: Or 911. The ambulance had no oxygen, it had

no heart stimulants, no nerve relaxers, and there was no doctor present. The

ambulance attendant could not even start up an IV. A person on hand, his sister,

who happened to be a registered nurse, started an IV. Now how could there be

such utter negligence? Surely ambulances are not being stripped of their

life-saving equipment, or are they? Can the minister tell Mr. Lynch's family why

this would have happened?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, from time to time questions are

raised by the hon. members opposite in a very frightening manner. We have looked

at many of the things that have been raised by members opposite and found them

to be not entirely correct. I believe that when hon. members make statements in

the House about things that they read in the newspapers and things, that they

should really check it out before raising it before the public. What I would

like to do before any further comment is to have the matter investigated

appropriately rather than this kangaroo court that comes up here every so often

from the hon. members opposite.

MS. COWAN: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SIMMS: You are incompetent, boy, you are incompetent!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, I stood by

this man two days every week for the last year and spoke with him, twice every

single week, and I know his family. It is no joking matter. It is not reflective

on an incident, it is reflective on the system generally. The minister knows

that Mr. Lynch was sent to the Grace Hospital two days earlier because of severe

chest pains and he was not admitted or given tests that are normally used to

diagnose heart problems. He was sent home and told to rest. Has the minister

found out why he was not admitted for observation at that time and why the

proper tests weren't given? Does it have anything to do with government budget

cutbacks that have forced hospitals to put restrictions on admissions and

diagnostic tests?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, from time to time I get

complaints from people in the system about how the health system works. Every

time I get a complaint from a person in the system or that person's family I

have it investigated. A report comes back to me. I communicate back to the

people and we sometimes take remedial measures. The proper procedure is not for

people to appeal to the hon. member of the Opposition or to the deputy mayor of

St. John's. That is not the way the health care system works. They should appeal

through the proper procedure which is here. It is no good for him to raise it in

the House and expect an immediate answer until after we do not respond, and that

is quite appropriate at that point. What he should do is refer all enquiries to

me and we will investigate it and we will get back and try to straighten it out.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford -

Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of

Education. This morning we listened to a CBC interview with the associate Deputy

Minister of Education on the government's plan to implement full-year

kindergarten in September, just six months from now. Mr. Crocker told CBC that

the department doesn't yet know if there is enough classroom space to

accommodate full-year, full-day kindergarten or if a curriculum can be cobbled

together between now and September.

In view of the Deputy Minister's uncertainty, will the

minister today admit that there are problems with space, problems with the

curriculum, and postpone the implementation of the full-day kindergarten until

these problems can be appropriately addressed?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, the intention of introducing a

full-day kindergarten is to help us with the overall reform of education and

hopefully give our children a head start in the educational system. For the life

of me I can't understand why anyone who would purport to have any interest in

education in this Province would try to put roadblocks in the way to delay us

from implementing these reforms.

I will tell the hon. member that in some schools it has been

suggested that there will be a space problem. The department is having that

checked out. So far it seems like it is in a very small, minute number of

schools that there will be a space problem.

As for the curriculum, a full-day kindergarten is by no means

unique. There are several other provinces which are offering a full-day

kindergarten, so a curriculum is available off the shelf. New Brunswick has a

full day kindergarten, it is the simplest thing in the world. The department

does, quite often take text off the shelf, curricula off the shelf, for various

subjects, so curriculum will not be a major problem. But Dr. Crocker is quite

right, we have not decided exactly which curriculum we will offer. I should also

tell the hon. member that full-day kindergarten is being taught in Newfoundland

and Labrador as well, out in the Exploits School Board, Mr. Speaker. I am not

sure if it is sheer coincidence or not, but in the last Canadian test of basic

skills, Exploits School Board made the greatest strides toward improvement in

all of Newfoundland and Labrador. I don't know if it is coincidence but they are

teaching a full-day kindergarten in some of their schools, not all of them, Mr.

Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Waterford - Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the issue is not whether or not

we agree with full-day kindergarten; in fact, in the Province of Nova Scotia

they have a half day in September to December, a full day after the beginning of

the school year and in Alberta, they have just cancelled kindergarten

altogether, so that there is a wide number of different programs in the country.

But the lack of proper planning is causing great confusion for parents,

especially working parents who have to make arrangements now to register their

children at day care or early childhood programs if they can't count on full-day

kindergarten for September. What does the minister suggest to those parents -

should they go ahead and register their children in day care or should they

listen to the Associate Deputy Minister, bring up the questions of space and

curriculum and register their children for early childhood education programs?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I hope the hon. member's facts

are a little more accurate than the ones about Alberta. Alberta is not

cancelling kindergarten; Alberta is reducing the number of hours from 400 to 200

a year, which is a long way from actually cancelling.

Mr. Speaker, parents are phoning me from time to time; most

of the parents are quite happy and pleased that we intend to do this and I would

tell them today exactly what I tell them on the telephone. It is government's

intention, it our hope to have kindergarten a full day come this September.

However, we cannot tell them 100 per cent with certainty that that will be the

case, because we are finding, in some cases, people like to put a road block in

the way of education reform, Mr. Speaker, but it is our hope to put them there,

it is our hope to have them in September, we certainly would like to do it but I

cannot guarantee 100 per cent, I can probably guarantee them 85 per cent or 90

per cent that we will have kindergarten available. And also, we are considering,

Mr. Speaker, if there are particular schools in the Province, a minority of

schools which do not have the space for full-day kindergarten, we also have the

option of going ahead with the various schools and school boards who do have the

space available. So there is a possibility we could end up with a few schools

which don't have a full-day kindergarten, but that would not be all that

different; at the moment, a minority has kindergarten, a full day, some don't.

We could end up with a majority of the schools in the Province having a full

day; there might be some adjustments that we will have to make to a few others,

but the intent is, a full day, Mr. Speaker, to improve, to reform education in

this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Environment and Lands.

In the fall of 1992, the Environment and Lands minister said

government would bring in legislation to force soft drink companies to use

returnable bottles. Last November, after an intense lobby by the Canadian Soft

Drink Association, government announced that it changed its mind, and it was

really bought off, I guess, by an offer from the Canadian Soft Drink Association

to fund a $2 million anti-litter campaign in the Province. I would like to ask

the minister: Is the deal with the Soft Drink Association still in place, and if

so, when does the minister expect the public relations campaign to begin?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and

Lands.

MS. COWAN: First of all, let me clarify one thing, there

is no deal. What we have done here, is, follow the advice that has been given to

us by the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment and taken a new

approach, different from the old-fashioned deposit-refund system, Mr. Speaker.

That is now considered outmoded, and it is considered more appropriate to go

after the people who produce excess packaging or, in this case, pop containers,

and not put the total burden on the consumer. Both the consumer and the

manufacturer will share in the burden, which makes an awful lot of sense, so

there was no intense lobbying, there was no deal, and I must say, I find those

words rather offensive, because what I did, and I am really pleased I did it,

was find a better way of doing things, and thank goodness, I don't have such a

self-concept that I can't change my mind.

Walt Whitman said -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) to do it.

MS. COWAN: Well, I want to tell you what Walt Whitman

said.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MS. COWAN: I will save it for a speech some day and they

can look forward to that. In the meantime, as far as the campaign itself getting

underway is concerned, I am looking forward to its beginning in the spring, as I

have indicated all along. That will be either late April or early May.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I

wouldn't want to ask the minister a complicated question. But, anyway, I would

like to ask the minister - as I understand it, there was a Cabinet committee of

ministers that was directed to watch over the development and implementation of

the anti-litter campaign. Can the minister tell us what ministers participated,

or served on that committee? What ministers were involved in that process?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and

Lands.

MS. COWAN: Thank you again, Mr. Speaker. The original

paper was brought to Cabinet by me, as Minister of Environment and Lands, and it

was decided at Cabinet that we would put in place a committee of the Minister of

Industry, Trade & Technology, Tourism and Culture, and Environment and Lands as

ministers responsible in overseeing our discussions with the Canadian Soft Drink

Association and with CIPSI, the Canadian Packaging Stewardship Initiative.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for Grand Bank.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I hate to refer to it as a deal, but let me word it this way:

As part of its arrangement, I guess, with the government then, the Canadian Soft

Drink Association promised to spend a $2 million advertising and public

relations budget in this Province. Can the minister tell the House what work is

being done in this Province, how the work was awarded, and who is doing the

work?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Environment and

Lands.

MS. COWAN: Mr. Speaker, this initiative is being

undertaken by the Canadian Soft Drink Association and CIPSI, who are two private

companies. They have not yet announced who will be doing the work or where,

indeed, it will be done. I have heard rumours, as many people have, but it is up

to them to make the announcement because it is, indeed, their money that is

being spent. The one hope I do have is that they are able to do it in this

Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations is not here, I would like to ask a question of the President of

Treasury Board. Can he confirm that in government's savvy to save money on the

provincial Budget that $1.2 million is being proposed to be shaved off Workers'

Compensation in this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. BAKER: No, Mr. Speaker. I can confirm that we have in

place a system of Workers' Compensation that will continue in the coming year.

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired.

Presenting Reports by

Standing and Special Committees

MR. SPEAKER: In accordance with

Section 32 of the Auditor

General Act, I must table the auditor's report and annual financial statements

respecting the audit of the Office of the Auditor General for the fiscal year

ending March 31, 1993, and I do so table this report.

The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to table the Public Accounts Volume I, the

Consolidated Revenue Fund

summary financial statements to the year end, March

31, 1993. I would also like to table, Mr. Speaker, Public Accounts Volume II,

the Consolidated Revenue Fund supplementary statements and schedules for the

year ending March 31, 1993 and,as well, the Public Accounts Volume III, accounts

of Crown corporations, boards and authorities for the year ending March 31,

MR. SPEAKER: In accordance with

Section 13 of the Auditor

General Act, I hereby table the Annual Report of the Auditor General for the

fiscal year ended March 31, 1993.

The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. WILLIAM ANDERSEN III: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the

Select Committee appointed to draft a reply to the Speech of His Honour, the

Lieutenant-Governor, I present a report of the Select Committee as follows:

To His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor, the Hon. Frederick W.

Russell, C.M., LL.D., may it please Your Honour, we, the Commons of Newfoundland

and Labrador in legislative session assembled, beg to thank Your Honour for the

Gracious Speech which Your Honour addressed to this House. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker.

On motion, report received and adopted.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology.

MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the annual

report for Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador and the financial statements for

the fiscal year ending March 31, 1993.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on

tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To End The Automobile

Insurance Act."

MR. SPEAKER: Answers to questions for which notice has

been given.

MS. VERGE: What about the Public Libraries report?

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for LaPoile.

MR. RAMSAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure today to rise with a

petition on behalf of some 685 residents of the community of Rose Blanche on the

Southwest Coast in the district of LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I would like to first

read the prayer of the petition into the record:

To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland

in Parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents of the

district of LaPoile:

Whereas we, the undersigned residents of the town of Rose

Blanche, implore upon the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to avoid

finalizing matters with respect to the government-owned fish plant in Rose

Blanche;

Whereas a revitalized fishery may, in fact, be centred around

the hook and line gear type; and

Whereas the community of Rose Blanche has the largest number

of small and medium-sized vessels participating in the hook and line fishery,

some 130 fishermen involved on the Southwest Coast, these fishermen have granted

that they will work with community leaders on developing proposals for the

revitalization of Rose Blanche's fish plant;

Wherefore, we ask your government's indulgence to entertain

proposals as may be generated by our community and as in duty bound your

petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, these petitioners - a delegation on their

behalf, travelled to meet with the Minister of Fisheries here in St. John's

earlier today. We had a very lengthy meeting and a lot of discussion about the

issue of government-owned facilities, the issue of the community of Rose Blanche

and what the future will hold with respect to its participation in the fishery.

We have in the gallery, a delegation which has travelled in excess of 600 miles

to be with us here today, and I thank them for taking the time to come forward

and put their position to the minister. As well, Mr. Speaker, I think that

theirs is a special case, and not just because they are in the district of

LaPoile, which I represent.

The community of Rose Blanche, as I have often said here in

this House, is a community which was always seen as a place where unemployment

wasn't even thought of. The issue of unemployment for fishermen and plant

workers was such in Rose Blanche that they were known as probably being the

wealthiest and one of the most highly held communities in the fishery in the

Province. It is with that proud tradition that this petition comes forward and

these people come to deal with the situation that has now approached us with the

fishery.

The hook and line fishery in Rose Blanche as far - I think it

was in 1986 there were landings in the order of 20 million pounds landed by hook

and line alone - a huge fishery that supplied not only the community of Rose

Blanche in the past, history had it supply other communities along the Southwest

Coast with fish, and it was known as a real hubbub.

My own situation - I grew up in the town of Port aux Basques,

which depended almost entirely on the smaller communities out around Port aux

Basques to provide the wealth, the new dollars, the wealth that the whole area

was built up on. It is with that, Mr. Speaker, and the wishes of these people

who have signed this petition today, that we ask that government consider the

situation that they are in, where they would like to be able to work - and not

do it blindly and do it in thinking that the future may hold something for them

that it doesn't hold for other people throughout the Province.

Because there are a lot of communities in the same

circumstance, I understand that, as do the individuals from Rose Blanche. The

thing is, they do want the opportunity to be able to put forward proposals as

they may be able to arrive at them in approaching the variety of companies or

individuals or whatever it is that Rose Blanche's future is held in, and see to

it that they do get a fair shake when it comes to government's consideration of

the matter.

They would know that government is coming forward with some

initiatives, as noted in the Throne Speech, that there will be the presentation

of a White Paper. Just hopefully, within the context of whatever is presented,

the community of Rose Blanche will be able to pull together and develop some

form of a proposal on which their heritage is based, a proposal that will see

that community continue and become prosperous again as it has been in the past,

and not be reliant on government provisions for them because of problems that

were caused by other than them. Because they are the victims in this kind of

situation, as are many other fish plant workers and fishermen. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I want

to rise today to support the petition put forward by the Member for Lapoile and

say I would like to commend those in the gallery and others who have taken the

initiative of getting this petition and taken the initiative to come to St.

John's to meet with the member and the minister.

I can say to the Member for LaPoile and others that the

situation in Rose Blanche is one that most of us are very familiar with, all of

us along the South Coast, from the southwest corner of Rose Blanche all the way

down to the

section of the coast where I live on the Burin Peninsula - that we

are not used to not working. We were always used to working for twelve months. I

remember, not so long ago, that if you got a few days off at Christmas - and no

one ever thought about having two or three weeks off in the summer for summer

vacation, because the people worked full time, and that is all they knew. Of

course, the circumstances and the events of the last number of years have taken

their toll on any number of communities along the South Coast and all over the

Province.

So I can identify very well with the story that the member

has put forward today on behalf of the people of Rose Blanche. I've gone through

it a number of times in my own district of Grand Bank with four or five

different communities, I say to the member. I want to rise today to support the

efforts of the member and the people in the gallery, and all the residents of

Rose Blanche and surrounding communities who really, I guess, are crying out for

an opportunity to make a living and to keep their community alive.

A lot of communities all around our coast are going through

the same kind of process. I want to say to the Minister of Fisheries and to the

Premier and the government that in some of those communities there are

opportunities, but it is going to take the willingness of the government, it is

going to take the help of the provincial Department of Fisheries, the provincial

Department of Industry, Trade and Technology and other departments, to work very

closely with the people in those communities to seize upon any opportunity that

may arise.

If they are not successful in keeping their community alive

in finding employment opportunities, it will not be because the people in the

communities are not trying to do so. A lot of times the blame and the fault must

come back to rest with those in government, whether it be the provincial or

federal governments. In this case here we are petitioning the provincial

government, and the provincial Minister of Fisheries in particular.

So I guess all I say to the Minister of Fisheries is: Put

your shoulder to the wheel with your officials. Work with the member. Work with

the people. There may be an opportunity that will arise soon that will provide

an opportunity for those people; and there are other communities that we have

seen come forward over the last year or so that there are opportunities in their

communities, Mr. Speaker, but we have seen it being taken away and eroded by the

very government that is supposed to help them.

That is an issue for another day when we will get into one or

two of those communities that have had an opportunity, that have found a new

operator for their fish plant, and were thinking that a licence was there for

them when they found that golden opportunity of a new operator willing to put in

money, only to find out, when they have gone through this whole process, that

the Minister of Fisheries and the provincial government, and their member, who

should have been supporting them, has really pulled the rug out from under their

feet and now they do not have an opportunity.

So I want to say to the Member for LaPoile, I support your

petition 100 per cent, and I support the people who are trying to keep their

community alive and to find some employment opportunities.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, in speaking to the petition I

want to congratulate the member for presenting it. I met with the delegation

that he referred to this morning, in my office, just before lunch, and I think

they pretty well understand the situation and how limited the options are.

The plant that is in Rose Blanche has had a long history. I

believe it was built there by the Hardy interests, and subsequently sold, I

believe, to Rose Ting, and subsequently to that, expropriated by government at a

time when there were plants expropriated in Port aux Basques and St. Lawrence

and, of course, the one in Rose Blanche.

Now the delegation this morning, I think, pretty well agree

that maybe that is where the problem really started, back in 1988, when the

government of the day expropriated that plant, because in so doing, on looking

back, it probably deprived the people of Rose Blanche from getting a good, solid

operator to move in there to buy the plant and to have a long-term commitment to

its operation and to -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I am having trouble hearing the hon. minister, and he is

fairly close to me.

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the current owners, Conpak

Seafoods, rented the plant from the government and just a few weeks ago, in

fact, notified government that they were no longer interested in its operation,

and they walked away from it. The main problem, of course, given by the company,

was the fact that there was a shortage of fish. That, Mr. Speaker, is common

around the Province these days.

I explained to the group this morning the problems that we

are having, and that everybody recognizes the fact that we do have considerable

overcapacity in the processing sector. We have to downsize the processing

sector, and it would not be fair to tell them, or to give them an assurance,

that the licence would be reinstated in that plant, because the conditions under

which that would happen are far beyond the capability of anybody in this House.

In fact, I don't suppose there is a person on this planet who can predict, with

any level of certainty, just how much fish will be here next year, or ten years

from now. So it is difficult to be able to say what plants will be open two,

three, five or ten years from now, not knowing how much fish will be available

for them to process.

I should point out that on that corner, on the southwest

corner of the Province, there are presently four plants operating. There is a

plant in Port aux Basques, of course, one in Burnt Island, Margaree, Isle aux

Morts, and the plant in Rose Blanche would have been the fifth plant. I think

the delegation this morning agreed, too, that that is too much capacity for that

area, given the fact that the stocks are in short supply right now.

Mr. Speaker, I was happy to have met with the delegation and

I can say they were very understanding and obviously got a very good grasp of

what is happening. I can only tell them that as time goes on we will be

presenting in this House our White Paper on fisheries at which time we will be

outlying the criteria for the issuing of licenses. We will just have to wait and

see, but I do not want those people to return to their communities feeling

certain they are going to be able to have a license to operate their fish plant.

I can only tell them the matter is under review and there will be a White Paper

outlying government's policy presented in the House during this session and then

we will have to wait and see what happens from there.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, could we do Motion No. 1 first

and then we will deal with the Address in Reply?

MR. SPEAKER: Motion No. 1. Motion, the hon. the Premier

to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting The Privatization Of The Newfoundland

And Labrador Hydro-Electric Corporation," carried. (Bill No. 2)

On motion, Bill No. 2 read a first time, ordered read a

second time on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, we have received a report of

the Select Committee to deal with the Address in Reply but I am advised it is

necessary to adopt it formally so could the House move to that and then I will

ask Your Honour to call the Address in Reply debate? I believe we are going to

be treated to a speech by my friend for Grand Bank.

MR. SPEAKER: I might ask the hon. Government House Leader

on the Address in Reply, we earlier accepted the report, did we not, the

committee report?

MR. ROBERTS: We said presently and I guess presently is

here, Mr. Speaker, but, of course, I am in your hands.

MR. SPEAKER: The motion in favour of adopting the report

as tabled, carried.

The hon. Opposition House Leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I saw the Member

for Eagle River rise in his place and I thought he might have had some urgent

business he wanted to bring to the attention of the House.

It is my pleasure today to rise and have a few words in

response to the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne of yesterday.

I suppose to a degree I can say I found it interesting. It is

not too often you can say, or I can say anyway in the time I have been here,

that I found a Throne Speech to be interesting, but with the bold initiatives

that government is putting forward and going to bring to the floor of the

Legislature over the next five or six months - I would say they will probably be

brought to the floor of the House before, probably in the next two or three

weeks, but before they are dealt with, if ever by the House, I am sure five or

six months will at least have elapsed.

I see my good friend the President of Treasury Board, the

Minister of Finance, and it seems as if he is smiling almost in agreement that

he sort of anticipates that it just might be that kind of a sitting here as we

begin now this day March 1, 1994. Mr. Speaker, I did find some of the things

interesting and I look forward to a vigorous debate once the respective pieces

of legislation are brought to the floor of the Legislature for members to peruse

and debate. Of course the first one that we all know is coming is the

privatization of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro.

MR. SIMMS: I want to hear the back benchers' views.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Sorry?

MR. SIMMS: We want to hear the back benchers' views.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I'm sure that the members opposite will

be on their feet in lively debate. I don't think that they will be stifled, I

say to the Leader of the Opposition. I don't think any of them over there on

these very important and dramatic issues, dramatic decisions that will be made

on behalf of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, that I think that we are

going to see quite a participation by members opposite in the privatization of

Hydro and the education reforms that are coming forward, and all the other

issues that are mentioned in this Throne Speech. I'm sure they will be

participating.

I think the Premier summed it up very well yesterday when he

said it will probably be one of the most, if not the most, significant sitting

of the Legislature perhaps since Confederation.

MR. SIMMS: Most stormy.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I don't know if it is going to be all

that stormy but if the weather outside the last month or two is any indication I

expect that it might be at times considered to be stormy and aggressive. Perhaps

a little bit miserable at times.

Having said that, I hope in the final analysis of whatever

happens here that what is put forward and what is debated and I guess what is

approved and passed in the Legislature first and foremost puts the interests of

the people of the Province before everything else. The Premier had a great few

moments on that yesterday. As a matter of fact I couldn't believe really that it

was the Premier who was saying those things yesterday when he talked about

consultation and cooperation and all those other words that this government, Mr.

Speaker, is not very well known for.

This government is known for being confrontational. They are

known for not listening. They are known as being very dogmatic. Dictatorial.

More and more every day out and about in this Province now when you are out

there you hear this reference to this dictatorial regime. I have to be honest

and say that to me it is quite amazing how quickly things have changed. Because

up to a few short months ago there was the odd inference or reference to the

Premier being that way and the government being that way, but now you can't go

out for a quiet lunch unless people are coming up to you and saying those things

about the Premier and the government.

There is no doubt that the bloom is off the rose. The Premier

is under severe attack from the electorate. The government is under severe

attack. With the initiatives that they announced yesterday in the Throne Speech

I will not be surprised if they are not literally under attack in another month

or two right here on the steps of the Confederation Building. Because that is

what I expect. Because the people out there are so full of anguish and torment.

Their lives have been disrupted so much that they are ready to lash out. Usually

they lash out at those who are closest to them. In this case, it is the

Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, the government that is expected to

stand up for them first and foremost, to put the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador before everyone and anything else.

I think that is one thing that the people have come to

realize now, is that this government that is supposed to stand up and protect

their interests and speak for them has done anything but that. As a matter of

fact, the people out and about the Province think that this Premier is putting

the interest of the country before the interest of his own Province. The recent

income supplementation proposal that the Premier.... He went under the cover of

darkness almost to Ottawa and gave it to the new Prime Minister and said: Prime

Minister, here is what my Cabinet has endorsed. Would you have a look at this,

Mr. Prime Minister? This is what we would like you to consider.

MR. SIMMS: Here is what I've told my Cabinet to endorse.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Whatever. This is what we would like for

you and your government to consider, Mr. Prime Minister.

It has some very dire consequences for the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker. It has some dire consequences for the

unemployed, dire consequences for all the fisherpersons out and about this

Province who are being kept alive today by NCARP and the other fisheries

compensation packages that this Premier went to Ottawa and suggested that it

either be done away with completely or significantly reduced.

Now that is what is happening out and about the Province, Mr.

Speaker, and we only have to reflect back to Sunday, when thousands of them came

to the waterfront in St. John's, came to the waterfront in St. John's, Mr.

Speaker, and who was the main target of attack on the waterfront of St. John's

on Sunday? It was this Premier and this government because they can't believe

that this government would propose measures that would so significantly harm

them and, Mr. Speaker, I can only say this: Thank God, that Mr. Axworthy and

other ministers in the federal government did not go as far as this Premier

wanted them to go, because if they had, the fisherpersons would be in here today

and have this place taken over I say to the Premier; they would have it taken

over, because it is going to cause enough grief with what the federal government

has done, but if they had gone as far as this Premier wanted them to go, Mr.

Speaker, God knows what the end results would be.

AN HON. MEMBER: The premier is singing out.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, I don't care who sings out at me. It

does not bother me who sings out at me in this Legislature.

MR. SIMMS: The Minister of Finance says you got to have

faith.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes. Who said?

MR. SIMMS: The Minister of Finance, keep faith.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, I say to the Minister of Finance,

if there is one person in this House of Assembly who really needs a lesson in

faith and trust, is this minister, because what we see going on in the public

service in this Province today amongst the teachers, the education system, in

our health care institutions and in every department of government here, a mass

exodus, because this minister is threatening to do away with severance pay.

People who have worked twenty-eight, twenty-nine years of their lives -

DR. KITCHEN: The sky is falling again!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Never you mind about the sky falling

again I say to the Minister of Health. No, I am going to tell you something. It

wasn't any Harlequin Romance fell on your head, I tell the Minister of Health,

it was something a lot heavier than that. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is what is

happening in this Province today and members opposite know it, I don't have to

tell them. They are out and about their districts the same as I am out and about

mine and in other parts of the Province on occasion, they know what is

happening, you can see it written on their faces these days, Mr. Speaker, you

can see it written on their faces and there is a lot of them who are not very

happy.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, you are always happy, I say to the

Minister of Health. Everything is wonderful in its own way, I say to the

minister. It wasn't a very happy occasion the Member for Ferryland brought up to

you today and the occasion that I brought up to you just about a year ago, to

which you have not yet responded.

AN HON. MEMBER: What was that?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Another death, that happened -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, you have all the answers, there is

no doubt.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: How long ago was that, that you have not

stood in your place and given an answer to the family in Grand Bank who lost

their relative, and now, another incident today, that you won't answer for I

suppose; everything is wonderful, I say to the Minister of Health.

Tomorrow means whenever in parliamentary terms: I will answer

tomorrow.

Now, Mr. Speaker, there is going to be some lively debate on

privatization of Hydro, the education reforms and all the other legislation and

possibly I guess, privatization as the Premier referenced in the Throne Speech

yesterday. His ministers have been asked to look at other potential

privatization initiatives outside of Computer Services, Newfoundland Farm

Products -

DR. KITCHEN: We are going to privatize the Opposition.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well I wish you would I say to the

Minister of Health but there is one thing we do know, Mr. Speaker, that we will

never have an opportunity to privatize the Minister of Health because no one

would want to privatize him. There are other things that people might want to do

with him but I don't think, if the government was to call for public offers on

the Minister of Health, I don't think they would need any committee of advisors

like they had for Hydro. Now, Mr. Speaker, well what can I say about the poor

Minister of Health? I can only say that the Premier has been a little too late

in his Cabinet shake-up that he promised just before he left for Asia. He has

waited a little too long. The word was that he was waiting until the results of

the Placentia by-election because he wanted to dangle that carrot in front of

the electorate of Placentia that maybe the Liberal candidate - if you elect her,

she might serve in my cabinet.

MR. TOBIN: He said sure, he'd be proud to have her in the

caucus.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I heard the Member for Terra Nova on the

radio one day talking about how much she was looking forward to working with the

Liberal candidate and what a wonderful addition she was going to make. The

Member for Eagle River was out in Placentia every second day.

MR. SULLIVAN: That is why she lost.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I only wish I knew then what I know now,

Mr. Speaker. I would have made sure that he had a hotel room and meals for the

whole duration of the campaign -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: - because the MHA for Placentia would

have won by even a bigger majority, I say to the member. Every time I listened

to CHCM Radio in Marystown it was a giant rally of workers meeting in some town

and Mr. Danny Dumaresque will be there.

AN HON. MEMBER: Beaton was out there?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, Beaton was out there, the Member for

Fogo.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, the man who was responsible

for the affairs in Placentia during the by-election process was the Member for

Bellevue. It was that rough in Placentia for him, Mr. Speaker, that he even lost

his beard. They even took away his beard.

MR. SULLIVAN: They scalped him.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, really what it was, was that he

disguised himself. He had a shave so they couldn't recognize him.

The one that really took the cake, Mr. Speaker, was the big

advertisement about the giant rally a day or two before the election. They went

on and listed them out and said that the special guest speaker was the

Provincial Minister of Fisheries. Well that took the cake altogether. They

couldn't even pay to get them into the hall, Mr. Speaker, because we know one of

the biggest reasons why the Placentia result was as it was, it was because of

the attack on fisherpeople.

The proposed and suggested attack by this Premier and this

government on fisherpersons in this Province, is to not only reduce their UI and

to increase the qualifying period of time, Mr. Speaker, but they propose to wipe

it out, to wipe it out altogether. Members opposite know, Mr. Speaker. I am sure

the Liberal candidate, who I understand was a most credible person too by the

way, she understands why and she knows what happened. As a matter of fact I

heard that she was telling a few people in the lobby yesterday that she knows

some of the things that went on. She wasn't to pleased with some of the actions

of who she thought were to be her colleagues. Of course she was optimistic. You

can't blame the lady for that.

The Member for Port de Grave, Mr. Speaker, I see that there

are some people pointing at him but he couldn't devote the time that he would

have liked to in Placentia. Now I am not suggesting the result would have been

any different but I have to give him credit for setting some very good political

smarts, Mr. Speaker, and -

MR. SIMMS: Staying away.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, no - and knowing what to do on the

ground.

MR. TOBIN: Bill he was in Southern Harbour and reported

back that they were going to sweep it.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, did he?

MR. TOBIN: Yes.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, I didn't know that.

MR. SIMMS: His lips are sealed.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: It was reported back that there was

going to be a sweep in Southern Harbour. What was it 280 to fifty or sixty?

MR. EFFORD: The only mistake you're making is, you need

me to write your questions for you.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, I know. I say to the Minister of

Works, Services and Transportation - oh, I can't say it. I don't want to let all

the secrets out, I say to the minister. He said: All I need is for him to write

my questions for me. I had better stop right there.

The only thing with the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation is that most of the questions he asked when he was in the

Opposition is what he found out in the dark of night. He probed in the dark of

night with his flashlight. He probed in crawl spaces. He went into places that I

don't think man had ever ventured before and he would come back the next day and

he would sound so convincing, Mr. Speaker. He would sound so convincing.

AN HON. MEMBER: He was good though. You have to admit

that.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: He was not too bad. I remember very well

that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation when he was social

services critic, and my good friend the Member for Burin - Placentia West was

the minister, I remember it very well.

MR. SIMMS: They are throwing you off track now. You are

giving a great speech. Never mind that old nonsense.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: If you are going to speak for two or

three hours you need to have a little disruption that you can interact to.

There is one thing I must say, Mr. Speaker, there is one

thing that I've done -

MR. DUMARESQUE: Oh, oh!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: - since I've started, I say to the

Member for Eagle River, is that I've silenced the Minister of Finance. He is

there now with a very sad face. He is really wondering now in his mind, he is

anticipating now going out to the press and telling them that this severance pay

stuff is really only a bluff. I am going to announce to you now that this is off

the table because I don't want this mass exodus out of our schools or our

hospitals. I don't want that. I don't want positions being vacated. Because you

know it is one thing to have 400 or 500 teachers leave the system, which some

people would say is a positive step, and to a degree I think it -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: It is 200 now, I say to the Minister of

Forestry and Agriculture, right now. I would suggest in school districts of this

Province there are teachers right now who are meeting with their superintendents

to tell them that they are leaving, or first of all to ask them if they can

leave, I guess. Because they are supposed to give a notice. Some boards are

giving the okay. Because I heard one superintendent on radio today - I think it

was after 1:00 p.m., I say to the Minister of Finance - from some region I

believe there was thirty-eight or forty-two teachers leaving.

MR. SIMMS: From one board?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: One board. I heard the superintendent on

lunchtime. He was saying how really unfair it is to many of those people who

have worked so hard and so long over the years in the education system of this

Province. They are really being forced out by the Minister of Finance and the

Minister of Education, who has become very quiet, I must say, on this issue. Of

course, he has enough trouble with the churches, I suppose. He doesn't want to

fight with the NTA as well. He can only fight so long.

Of course, you have to remember about the Minister of

Education that he is reported to have said that anybody can build up education,

that he really wanted to tear it down.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I can understand the minister saying:

Did I say that? Because it is no surprise to us, Mr. Speaker, that the minister

can't remember what he says most times or doesn't know what he says.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh. oh!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, not being one of your biggest

fans, but I do listen to you very closely. I get an awful lot of reports on what

the minister says in certain places, I say to him.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: More faxes coming into my office these

days from things the minister said and questions they want me to ask the

minister, I say to him, that there would not be enough time left in the question

period for all this sitting to ask the minister the questions that people want

asked of him. Particularly those from his own district. Very serious questions.

Mr. Speaker, look at the need for educational reform, which

no one on this side of the House - and I would say no one on either side of the

House - objects to. I support educational reform. I think we have to have

educational reform. I don't think that all this emphasis and time and debate

that we've gone through the last - my God, since last March. The Premier rose in

his place I think March 12 and gave a statement on a Friday morning to the

church leaders who were here.

MR. SIMMS: Oh yes. That was when he duped the church

leaders.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Before he went to the electorate.

We have gone on for over a year on this issue with the

churches, government, schools, all of this stuff. You know, Mr. Speaker, I am

not sure, with all this debate and all this time, that if we go the way the

government wants to go, or if we go the way the churches want to go, that the

quality of education in any of our classrooms around this Province will improve.

I am not convinced of that, you know, because I don't think we are getting at

the real issues to improve the quality of education in this Province, and I say

that very sincerely.

I think this is an awful, confrontational situation we have

here, and I am not so sure, if everyone was to agree with what the Minister of

Education wants to do, and what he is proposing, I don't think the quality of

education is going to improve in the Grade IV classroom in Partanna Academy in

Grand Bank, I say to the minister; and I don't think if we go 100 per cent the

way the church leaders want to go, I don't think it is going to improve the

quality of education in the Grade IV classroom in Partanna Academy in Grand

Bank. I don't believe it, Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister. I will tell you

something, Minister, if you believe that, then you should start espousing your

reasons why, and try to convince people.

MR. DECKER: I've done that. Do you want a copy of

Adjusting the Course?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, my God, Adjusting the Course; part

one or part two? When are you going to get part three?

The best way to adjust the course in education in this

Province, I say to the minister, is for him to go up now to the eighth floor and

get his letter of resignation in to the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Because I will guarantee you one thing,

if this Minister of Education was out of there by six o'clock, we would have an

agreement between government and the churches in no time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I will tell you something - there are

members on both sides, and members on that side, who know what I just said is

very, very true - the biggest obstacle to getting an agreement is the present

Minister of Education, and no one should be surprised. Look at the problems we

had in health when he was there. We still have problems in health, but that

minister seems to create a lot of problems, whatever department, whatever

responsibilities he is given in government.

Mr. Speaker, as I alluded to first when I started to speak -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Education is not part of the Throne

Speech, I say to the minister?... wide-sweeping reforms that this minister is

bringing to this House.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Budget hasn't been brought in yet, I

say to the minister. You talk about an attack on the Minister of Education when

that comes in.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I am talking about a

government that has lost the confidence of the people. Dogmatic, dictatorial,

doesn't listen - that is what we are talking about, arrogance. We are holier

than thou; we will always be the government; no worries about us being defeated.

AN HON. MEMBER: For the next three years.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, yes, I say to the Minister of

Finance, for the next three years, but I would say over the last day or two the

Minister of Finance has looked very closely at his pension benefit statement

because he knows that the most he can get out of it is another three years. The

most he can hope for is another three years.

So people have lost confidence in the government, Mr.

Speaker. That is what has happened, very quickly, I say, as I said earlier.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Opposition has lost confidence.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, no, we haven't, really. There are

some of them over there that we still have a little confidence left in, but the

government as a whole, as a total, yes; but there are some ministers we have

some wee bit of confidence left in.

Mr. Speaker, I want to move the following, seconded by -

AN HON. MEMBER: An amendment to the Throne Speech?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, an amendment to the minister.

This is about confidence, or lack thereof, in the government,

Mr. Speaker. That is what this is about, and the poor old Minister of Education

doesn't know. Now, if it were three months time I could understand it if he said

what was it that came down on February 28? Was it the Throne Speech or the

Budget? But, here we are the day after the Throne Speech and he doesn't know if

I am speaking to the Throne Speech or the Budget. Mr. Speaker, he only happens

to be Minister of Education and a member of the Planning and Priorities

Committee of Cabinet. He was in here Sunday afternoon, Mr. Speaker, and I

suppose he has worked so long and so hard, he is so tired and fatigued, that he

doesn't know what they agreed to do yesterday. The poor man is worked to a

frazzle. The Minister of Finance still seems to be holding up. He was here on

Sunday - Saturdays, Sundays, Mondays and Tuesdays, but he carries it off in a

much better fashion.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to move the following, and I guess

I will have to be seconded by someone who is present - okay, seconded by the

Member for Humber Valley. I will have to change that here because my good friend

for Ferryland was supposed to be here when I did this but he is still out, I

guess, talking to the press on a number of matters that will be further

developed over the next day or so.

MR. MURPHY: His leadership is moving forward.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I say to the Member for St. John's South

that maybe the Member for Ferryland's leadership is moving forward, but his

movement so far has been lateral - talking about gridlock! I watched the council

last night and someone asked the Mayor did he know what gridlock was, and he

said that is something on a football field. They were talking about the lights

and the arrow they put on Allandale Road to go left. Andy Wells said it backed

up to Empire Avenue so he asked the Mayor if he knew what gridlock was, and

Mayor Murphy said, `It is something on a football field, isn't it?' I'm not

surprised that he said that, either.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by the hon. the

Member for Humber Valley, the following amendment, that all the words after

`that' be deleted in the motion before the House and the following words

substituted therefor: `this House deplores the government's failure to deal

adequately with the real problems facing our people and its failure to provide

competent management to our Province.' I would like to move this and ask Your

Honour to see if it is in order.

MR. FLIGHT: That is the same one (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: That is the same one, I say to the

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, that he moved when Don Jamieson was Leader

of the Opposition. At that time, Mr. Speaker, the minister was so proud to move

it. The minister now, the member then, was so proud to move it, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: On the motion put forward by the hon. the

Member for Grand Bank, the Chair declares that the motion is in order.

The hon. the Member for Grand Bank.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I want to say to members

opposite in a very sincere fashion that it is hard to admit when you are members

of the government - I mean, we went through it in our day - I remember when I

came in here in 1982 and we won forty-four seats. We were on such a high when we

came it here it was unbelievable, I guess, much like members opposite were when

they came in in 1989. The government had changed, and I guess they felt pretty

good for a few months since this May's election, but a lot of them are not

feeling as buoyed up anymore. I remember when we came in in 1982 and then the

bottom started to fall out of everything. The bottom fell out of the fishery and

we had the whole restructuring. Remember Michael Kirby and Peter John Nicholson.

All those fellows who were going to restructure the big fish companies. Then,

shortly after that the Bowater problem and it went on and on, in a matter of

twelve months. I remember at one Christmas party, well, at the first Christmas

party I was here actually, on the floor where we are now -

AN HON. MEMBER: The dungeon.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: We deserve it though, I must say. I have

to be honest with you. It looks good on us now up there in the dungeon. One of

the leading ministers then, of government, a new member, very sensitive to

everything - and if you heard someone called from your district and said that

someone said something about you, you didn't sleep that night; and then things

started to go bad with your fish plants, and you said, well, this is the end of

it I will never be elected again; and every month things got worse and worse and

worse, so of course, at the Christmas party up on the fifth floor, you know

having a few snorts and -

AN HON. MEMBER: What?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: - I remember, I said to a very prominent

minister of the Cabinet of the day, I said: `You crowd from St. John's would

look some good the next time in Opposition!' I'll never forget - his glasses

fell off - but I guess what I'm saying is, that is what can happen to you, that

things can change very quickly, and I would say to members opposite, that I sort

of compare that to what is happening right now, where you feel very good after

being re-elected, you have a very comfortable majority, but things are not good

out and about. I mean, all of us have problems in our districts; people are

very, very tormented, there is a lot of anxiety, they are very frustrated, and

they are blaming a lot of it on this government, I say to members. Because it is

not as easy now either for members opposite, the government, to blame things on

Ottawa. They got away with that for four years, but they can't get away with it

anymore.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, I don't doubt, Mr. Speaker, but

what I am saying to members opposite is that the people's confidence in this

administration has taken a tremendous beating. This government - and I will say

for the third time, that even I, am surprised that it has happened so quickly,

because I can't go anywhere now without finding that the Premier in particular

and the government in general, are under attack. Whether it is a group of four

or five or six people, or a group of 3,000 or 4,000 people, their main target

now, their prime target, is the Premier and the administration; and I say to

members opposite, just remember, you don't have to reflect back too long, when

right across this great country, the same anger, frustration, anxiety and

torment were expressed towards one, Brian Mulroney and his administration, and

once it sticks so thick, you can't shake it.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, you know, there are some things, I

say to the Member for Fogo, for which I can forgive anyone. I can forgive the

Leader of the Opposition for going up and supporting -

AN HON. MEMBER: Voting for Campbell?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, I can. Sure, there are some things,

but members opposite know where I am coming from, they must get it in their

districts; I got it in my district when I was a member of the government. As a

matter of fact, come Budget times - I remember the time we put the sales tax up

to 12 per cent. It just so happened that there was a reception on in my district

at the time, that night, and I walked in to the place and I thought I would

never get out alive: `You will never get another vote, you betrayed us, you are

a traitor,' and I tell you, they had me pretty worried, I believed them then.

AN HON. MEMBER: What happened, `Bill'?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, they changed their minds, they knew

I was such a good fellow that they couldn't do without me. But what I am saying

is - the Member for Fogo is saying that he kind of thinks that, do all this

terrible stuff and they will forget.

MR. TULK: And remember it was 1982 -

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, it wasn't.

MR. TULK: - and you were there in 1989.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, 1985, it was.

MR. TOBIN: Remember when I moved in, `Bill'?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: What is that?

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) you were gone?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: I heard you were campaigning with your

(inaudible) sweater on.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, I never would, because you know, I

say to the Member for St. John's South, I could never campaign, Mr. Speaker,

with my Grand Bank sweater on because it was red and white. Can you imagine in

the middle of the election campaign, me, going around with a red and white Grand

Bank sweater on?

AN HON. MEMBER: I'll have to get the loan of that one for

the next election.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Sorry?

AN HON. MEMBER: May I have a loan of the red sweater?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, I guess you can have a loan of

anything I have for the next election, I say to the Minister of Education. I say

now that perhaps there is a fair chance that the Minister of Education and

myself will be going around in the middle of the next election campaign with

that bumper sticker on: `Retired'. That is what all the people up in his

district think anyway, because they are calling me now and asking: Where does

Chris have his house bought in St. John's? It is a sure sign he is not coming

back.

Of course, he has told them he is not coming back. He has

told them up there. `If you want anything done now,' he says, `you had better

give me the word quick, and don't open your mouth against me or you will get

nothing.' That is what he has told them up there.

MR. DECKER: There is a lot of pressure on me now not to

retire, you know.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, I know. I talk to them almost every

second day, those people who are really afraid that you are going to retire.

There are about twelve of them in your district that call me every second day

and send me faxes. Their biggest concern they said is: `When the House of

Assembly opens, please ask Chris not to resign.' The first question they want

asked is about the Minister of Education. The people from up in his district

want me to plead with him and say: `Please, minister, please, don't resign.'

MR. SIMMS: No, it is not, now, you are leading him on

now, `Bill'. Tell him the truth.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: He knows what is happening up there.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, I say to the Minister of Justice. We

don't want him to resign. We have to have somebody left out of the front four.

We need somebody left there.

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible) stay down in the engine room with

you!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: We need at least one of the front four

here in the middle left - at least one. There are a couple of them on pretty

shaky ground over there now, I say to the front four. Pretty shaky ground.

MR. ROBERTS: `Bill', I will give you a call about it.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: You will give me a call about it? If you

are going to call me about it now make sure you call me from the city. Then you

won't have to call long distance, I say to the Minister of Justice.

MR. ROBERTS: Exactly, that is why I said I said I would

call you.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I know why you said it.

MR. DECKER: I am going to give him back his seat.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Sorry?

MR. DECKER: He can have his seat back.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Give him his seat back. Don't give him

your card, too, then. I must say, the Minister of Justice looked pretty shaky on

television last night, looked pretty sheepish, didn't he?

MR. ROBERTS: That's right - head down.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes. You can always tell - a guy looking

at his boots. You can tell when his pride has been hurt.

MR. TOBIN: Looking at his new suit.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, that was an interesting comparison,

I say to the Member for Burin - Placentia West. He said - you all watched the

news last night, I suppose. He said: Did you see the Minister of Justice on last

night? Did you see where he announced he resigned in 1985? I said: `Yes, I saw

that, where he is down in the engine room and whatever he was going to be doing,

I don't know, oiler or whatever it is. Then they put him on right after and the

Member for Burin - Peninsula West said: My god, he was wearing the same suit!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I said, it was only 1985! That is what

he said.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) less kind things than that about

my suits.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, I'm just telling you a story that,

you know, as we were talking about the news today. It was only meant in jest. We

understood -

MR. ROBERTS: How do you know it's not true?

AN HON. MEMBER: It is!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: We believe it is true! We believe that

it is true, I say to the minister. But how you spent that much time in the

engine room and still could wear your suit on television last night is the big

question. You must have had some good coveralls.

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) to change his tie and keep the

same suit. That's what `Ed' did.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I'm beginning to wonder now

- I say with respect to the Member for Burin - Placentia West and the Minister

of Justice - I'm wondering who is supposed to have the floor. It is getting

rather difficult. Because I've only been a short time yet. I have about two more

hours, I believe.

MR. ROBERTS: You are being harassed, are you?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, I am being harassed, I say to the

minister. But I was saying at the time - when I pleaded with the Minister of

Education not to resign, then I said that we need at least one person left from

the front four. I know the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology missed

that, Mr. Speaker, and that is why I wanted to repeat it, because I knew he was

looking at me kind of curiously.

I said, the Minister of Education - I pleaded with him not to

resign, to stay on, because, I said, we need at least one person left from the

front four. I said, `There are a couple real shaky there now, but I want him to

be there. At least we can move him up and move two or three in with him to try

to keep her going over there for another couple of years.

The Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology - that is what

I was talking about before he came in. I knew that he would be most interested

in hearing that, not suggesting now that with this lack of confidence in the

government, and things that are happening, that in any way the Minister of

Industry, Trade and Technology might be one of those that might be shaky over

there. I wasn't suggesting that, I say to the minister. I wasn't suggesting any

of that, not at all. I was just talking about lack of confidence in the

government, and what is happening out and about Newfoundland.

Now, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology can't

identify with that too much, of course, because he is just back from

Switzerland, I believe he told me. I don't know if he was in Austria or not. He

was in Austria?

MR. FUREY: Yes, I will yodel for you.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Is that right? Good. I have a yodelling

tape I could loan the minister for the next time he goes back. He could do a

little practising.

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) yodel.

MR. MURPHY: Who is it, `Jim Morgan'?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Voices in the Wind.

Where else were you, by the way, Minister?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Just those three countries?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Two. I understand the minister was

trying to attract business or something - something for the Northern Peninsula,

perhaps?

MR. FUREY: Maybe.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Maybe.

What I am saying is that you wouldn't know what is going out

and about the Province because you're not here that much. You wouldn't know that

there is such an overwhelming lack of confidence in the government that has

occurred in the Province the last while because you have been so busy travelling

about.

MR. FUREY: Only one week.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, far more than one week. Well, I tell

you, there has been a dramatic dip, I say to the minister, in the last week.

Really, there have been some tremendous happenings out and about there. The

minister knows.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, and I am sure he is going to hear

more, I say to the minister, of the happenings out and about here, he is going

to hear more.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, I don't know. I wouldn't say that,

now, about the minister.

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) poll, `Chuck'.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Poll! I say to the Member for Fogo, I

remember those days when we boasted about polls, and I remember the days when we

dreaded polls, and I say to the Member for Fogo, you are getting into an area

now where you are starting to dread them. You are starting to dread them, I say

to the Member for Fogo, and the dread will get worse.

The old Mad Hatter over there - now there is a man who knows

a lot about polls.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Please do that. Please do it, I say to

the member. I have seen polls over the last three weeks, myself; I have been

involved in them myself actually, I say to the member, and I know what is

happening in public opinion in the Province, as much as anybody here - very

recent polling, I say, not quarterly polling, recent polling - and if ever there

was a shift, I say to the defender of the health care system; he should not be

surprised why there is such a dramatic shift, the old Mad Hatter over there, the

Minister of Health. He is part of the problem, why there is no confidence in the

government, why day by day the confidence in this government erodes. Visit the

hospitals, I say to the Minister of Health, like I have been doing the last

three weeks. Go down and about down there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, another smart alec remark, I say to

the minister. Yes, perhaps I should be down there. Yes, they should be taking

out my gall bladder, I say to the minister.

MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman doesn't lack for gall.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, and I guarantee you something - now

listen who said that, I say to the Minister of Justice. Who said that - an hon.

member doesn't lack gall? Can you believe it? Can you believe who would say

that?

I want to say to the Minister of Health, on a serious note,

that we have some very serious problems in our health care system out there, you

know. If you go in and out some of the hospitals in this Province on a regular

basis, which I have had occasion to do the last three weeks or so - not because

I wanted to go but because I felt obligated to go - I'll tell you something: it

ain't the best of situations, and that is no reflection on those who are working

there, either. Some of these people are worked to a frazzle, I say to the

minister. I am sure he recognizes that, and if we get an exodus now out of the

health care system because of these suggested harsh measures that are coming in

the new budget, it is going to make it even worst.

The Member for Ferryland alluded to a case today where this

gentleman went down and wasn't diagnosed for whatever reason. There are some

very serious situations, we all know about them, we all have constituents who

are in hospital on occasions that we go visit or we have relatives that we go

visit on a regular basis. It is a pretty serious situation and it is one of the

reasons why the confidence in this government is dwindling, particularly for a

Premier and a government who promised better health care, who promised that more

hospital beds would be opened in this Province. These are the kinds of things

that are happening, Mr. Speaker. There is no confidence whatsoever in this

government out and about this Province.

Public servants? You say, well so what? They are taking their

living from the public purse but there are several thousand of them in this

Province who have no confidence in this government, who have no trust in this

government. Any person now who is receiving unemployment insurance in this

Province has lost complete trust in this government because of what this Premier

and this government proposed in the Income Supplementation Program. Every person

in this Province who is receiving income on the Fisheries Compensation Package

have lost confidence in this government because this government proposed that

they be wiped out.

Now, Mr. Speaker, when you put all of that together, you have

a lot of people in this Province who have lost total confidence in this

government. Yes, you may slough-off the result in Placentia as being for

whatever reason but the weakest slough-off I heard, Mr. Speaker, was the one of

the Premier, who said it was because of a sympathy vote. It had nothing to do

with him of course, it had nothing to do with the antics of the former minister,

it had nothing to do with income support, the proposals that this administration

Placentia vote was all about. It was about all of those things.

In Placentia you have a situation where you have all walks of

life the same as we have in any district in this Province. We have public

servants, educators, health care workers, transportation workers, fishermen,

former fishermen and fisherpersons that were all, in some way, affected by the

measures that this government was proposing and would have been affected far

more seriously if the federal government would have done what they asked them to

do, and that is a lot of people.

So I say to the Member for Fogo that you can talk about polls

all you like but Placentia was a poll. Placentia was the electorate speaking in

a certain situation. Polls are a snapshot of the day, of the hour, they change

as we all know but there is a very strong message in what came out of Placentia.

If I were in the government today I would listen to that message because as we

know and you know, it is a very powerful tide to fight when every fifteen or

twenty seconds you listen to your radio station and someone is talking of the

advantages of being on the government side. It is a very powerful message, it is

hard to fight it. We used it when we were the government and we used it very

effectively, the same as the government of the day. It is very hard to fight but

in Placentia, just a few months after a general election, the people were not

willing to be any part of this government. That is what the people of Placentia

said. It was a total vote of non-confidence in this administration.

Mr. Speaker, there will be more by-elections between now and

the next general election in this Province, there is no doubt about that. We

average four or five a term, I guess, if you look back over any number of years.

It averages at least one a year, I say to the Member for Fogo. There will be

by-elections. There will be other signals come from those by-elections.

MR. CRANE: You are not giving up though, are you?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I'm not talking about myself, I say to

the Member for Harbour Grace.

MR. CRANE: That is the main thing (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, no. They will have to carry me out

of here, boy.

MR. CRANE: I don't want to see you go.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I will be here a long time, I say to the

Member for Harbour Grace. Because my ambition and aim right now, Mr. Speaker, my

ambition, and, right now, desire -

MR. CRANE: Is to be leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: - is to - no, it is not to be leader. I

say to the Member for Harbour Grace, who would want to be leader?

MR. CRANE: Of the PC Party I don't know.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Member for Ferryland wants to be

leader.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No. I want to be in a position of

influence, I say to the Member for Harbour Grace. To make things better in this

Province. To get rid of this uncaring government that is here. A government that

in five short years has lost touch with the people. Become arrogant in five

years. Think you are going to be around forever. That is the first mistake.

Because we all know once the electorate makes up their mind, it doesn't make any

difference of how good a member you've all individually been, that you are going

with the sweep. It is hard to hold on when that tide strikes, as we saw

federally. Some very good people lost and went with the tide.

That is what you are facing there in five short years. That

is how bad the confidence of the people has been shaken in this Administration,

I say to the Minister of Environment and Lands. They've lost total confidence in

this Administration.

MS. COWAN: I was just going to complement you. I was

going to say, you are an example of someone who (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: What can I say? With all of the

government side propaganda and the obvious interest in the candidate against me

in the District of Grand Bank, and the whisper campaigns of the great future, it

didn't make any difference in the final analysis.

MR. MURPHY: You were nervous, (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, I would say to the Member for St.

John's South. It is my second largest majority, I would say to him.

AN HON. MEMBER: But you were nervous.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I've never been nervous. Never been

nervous about that.

MR. TOBIN: Not a bit nervous, and we spent the day

together, didn't we, buddy?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes. Up in Tobin's cabin. We spent the

day together up in Tobin's cabin.

MS. COWAN: I think when you were fresh back here though

after the last election Hansard will show that you (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, I didn't say that. I've never met a

woman yet who made me nervous, I say to the Minister of Environment and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. ROBERTS: That one will cost you badly.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: That one will cost me? You are not going

to tell the wife Ed, are you?

MR. ROBERTS: A copy of the Hansard will be delivered to

your House (inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Ed, I will take it.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: It is hard to fight the government line.

The Member for Burin - Placentia West is threatening me. He is going to deliver

a copy to my wife. Then we had better all be careful about that. I will get the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation -

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: What would the Minister of Health like

to know, I wonder? Would he like to hear of the overwhelming confidence of the

people of the Province and the health care workers in particular, the confidence

that they have in the minister, would he like to hear a few stories about that?

About how their worst dread, how they dread the day when the Premier shuffles

the Cabinet, and shuffles him out? They don't want it to happen, Mr. Speaker.

They have so much confidence in the Minister of health.

That is a by-election I wouldn't mind seeing called before

6:00 this evening. By-election in St. John's Centre. My MHA, my member, I say.

DR. KITCHEN: Thanks for your vote.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, no problem. I made sure election

day that I voted for myself and then I came in and voted for the minister. I

voted twice. I couldn't go to sleep that night not knowing I didn't vote for

him.

AN HON. MEMBER: Thank your seat mate too.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Which one?

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Member for Ferryland? He didn't vote

for you too, did he? If that is the case we might have cause here to have it

overturned, I say.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: That is three of us here voted for you.

The way we looked at it -

MR. TOBIN: Rick lives in the district.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Rick, yes. The Member for Humber Valley

is in your district too. We couldn't vote, you see. We waited till about 7:55

p.m. on polling day -

DR. KITCHEN: I had better be nice to them.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes. We waited till 7:55 p.m. on polling

day. We said: We've had a good campaign and we've closed the gap, and we've done

well, much better than people thought. But it looks like we are not going to

quite make it to form the government. The best thing the four of us can do now

is go down and vote for Dr. Kitchen. Because there would be no doubt about the

next general election, if we can get him re-elected and back in Health, there

will be no doubt that the next time we will sweep the government out, so you

can't always go thinking about the moment, I say to the Minister of Health; you

have to think about the future, you have to plan for the future.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, it is working so far, I say to the

Minister of Environment and Lands; it is working so far because the confidence

in this government has been eroded so much and so drastically. Members know it,

that is why the Premier talked for months about a shuffle. Just before he left

to go to Asia I remember they interviewed him at the airport I think it was and

he said: Well, I wouldn't be surprised if I thought about it while I was away.

But of course he met with so many business people while he was away, as he told

the press when he came back, that we can understand why the Premier didn't have

time to think about the shuffle.

He had such a long list that he released to the media and the

people of the Province with the business contacts he met in Asia, that we know

he could not think about a Cabinet shuffle, and do you know the real reason, Mr.

Speaker, do you know the real reason, Mr. Speaker? The Premier now, in the

position which he finds himself, and with the drastic slide in public opinion

and confidence in his government, he has himself in a box. He cannot make the

changes he wants to make over there because the last thing he wants now is, two,

three or four of them bolting, saying: I am leaving Premier, if you are going to

sack me, I am leaving - because he can't face another three, four or five

by-election, Mr. Speaker. By-elections, he can't face them, he knows what the

results are going to be now; all you would need is another seven or eight

by-elections and we would have to go down to the Lieutenant-Governor and say we

have more than they have, Sir, send us over.

MR. SIMMS: And then the couple who wants to come over

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Every day my phone is ringing from

certain people who want to come over because they say: We are a short-lived

bunch -

AN HON. MEMBER: Name them.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, I am not going to that; I am not

like that I say to the Minister of Health, I am not like that. When I talk to

someone in confidence, I never name them.

MR. SIMMS: The Minister of Finance is one.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Minister of Health? My God, we had

to boot him out of the party, why would we want him back? We booted him out of

the party why would we want him back? Oh the Minister of Finance, we could never

have anything to do with him now, the Minister of Finance. I would say the

Minister of Finance, there probably would be a by-election in Gander for another

reason, I would think, if he gets the public service roiled up anymore.

AN HON. MEMBER: What are they going to do?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: God knows, with the stories I am

hearing, God knows. They are getting pretty worked up out there I say to the

Member for Fogo; we are getting an awful lot of phone calls and faxes coming in.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh God no, I say to the Minister of

Forestry and Agriculture. I always talk them down when they talk that way, I

tell them they had to be responsible; it is tough times. What do you really

think, what options this government has, I tell them. Relax, don't go getting up

tight with the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation because your road

is not ploughed, don't get upset with him, that is what I tell them; what do you

expect this poor government to do? They are getting lots of help now from

Ottawa, Ottawa is helping them out a lot; no freeze on transfer payments now,

they have all their buddies in Ottawa; they can't blame it on the feds so it

must only be one big problem, it must be this Administration itself that is a

dead failure, an outright failure to the people of this Province, I say to the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, that is what they have become

over there, a big failure.

MR. EFFORD: I say we are going to Bobbitize you.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I don't care what you do to me,

Bobbitize me. Well, Bobbitize? I don't know what reference that is to, Mr.

Speaker, Bobbitize me, but I suppose if I had a little bit of imagination I

could think about what it meant. I suppose I could be forced to think what the

minister meant, Bobbitize me, but I am not going to get drawn into that one

because the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation knows, Mr. Speaker,

he did it to me one time before, when we had this, what's your hand doing in

your pocket bit, and who came out of it the worse but me, not realizing at the

time that they were taping me live off this, and what did I hear on my way home?

I said: Oh my God, I hope they don't listen to CBC Radio down on the Burin

Peninsula, because I really got caught, so I am not getting into the Bobbitizing

bit, no.

MS. VERGE: There is a little, old woman in Pasadena who

wants to take a gun to the minister.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, really? A little, old woman in

Pasadena upset with him?

MS. VERGE: Yes.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes.

MS. VERGE: Lots of younger women (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes? She told you? Well, that is what I

am saying, see. Anything can happen. That is what I was saying about the

Minister of Finance, and the Member for Fogo - see, the Minister of Works,

Services and Transportation, the people are threatening him, and want to shoot

him. Now can you imagine the person they are going to blame, like the President

of Treasury Board, the Minister of Finance and the Premier, given another month

or so, what are they going to want to do with them.

MR. TOBIN: The Member for Harbour Grace.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, the Member for Harbour Grace, no, he

is not part of any of this, Sir. That is one thing I know.

MR. TOBIN: He is not?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, he is not that kind of man, Sir. No,

he is not that kind of man, but the thing is, they are overpowered over there,

you see. They are overpowered; they are not allowed to think for themselves.

They are not allowed to speak.

MR. MURPHY: Now, now.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, I say to the Member for St. John's

South, I look forward to you, over the next number of weeks, on the Hydro

privatization, education reforms -

MR. MURPHY: I started it all three years ago.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, yes, and you know why you started it

all? You were told to start it all.

MR. MURPHY: No, Sir.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: You were told to start it all, and he is

up there now on that eighth floor, and he would do anything now to swear that

oath, Mr. Speaker. You go down to the Lieutenant-Governor and talk about those

insurrections, seditious plots, that you have to take that great oath that he

will not participate in seditious plots, and intestine insurrections. The Member

for St. John's South is up there now, I have heard, rehearsing it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Member for Fogo? He is not

practising the oath, I will tell you that.

AN HON. MEMBER: What is that?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I am just saying that the Member for St.

John's South is rehearsing his oath to be sworn into Cabinet, and the Member for

Humber East said - and I said, no, there is no way you are, because you know

it's a complete waste of time.

MR. TOBIN: Bill, did you hear how Graham said his when he

got sworn in?

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I what?

MR. TOBIN: How Graham swore his oath.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, I didn't, but that is what is

happening over there, one foot in the door now, the Member for St. John's South,

and he is petrified they are not going to drag the other one in over the

threshold for him - petrified.

MR. TOBIN: Graham said, I will reveal all the secrets.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: He took an oath that he would reveal all

secrets? Well, somebody should get to talk to the man.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, I know, boy. No, it is not you.

You're not the one giving the leaks, I say to the Minister of Forestry and

Agriculture. You're not the one who is providing the leaks. You took your oath

seriously, something like I did when I took it. I took it very seriously. I

haven't told a secret since, but there are those over there who took the oath

who - I don't know about them. I don't care if some of them don't get expelled

for being spies or something. There's a lot of that going on in the world these

days.

AN HON. MEMBER: You mean the power struggle.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: There's a power struggle over there, all

kinds of happenings.

MR. TOBIN: Leadership on the go.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, leadership aspirations and campaigns

going on over there.

AN HON. MEMBER: I don't believe that.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, there are, very serious ones, too; I

know. Then we have the conniving and the lobbying for Cabinet. It is amazing

what is happening.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, always.

MR. MURPHY: The Member for Grand Bank is not as good as

he was last year.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Oh, of course not, I am a year older.

AN HON. MEMBER: You are aging rapidly.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, rapidly, slowing down, losing my

exuberance; but the two problems over there, you see, you talk about the

Province -

MR. TOBIN: When Bill came in here he had long hair and a

beard. That is how long he is in here.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: That is right. They say some things are

for the better.

AN HON. MEMBER: It is serious.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, it is. It is hard to keep your

train of thought when you are continuously being interrupted, Mr. Speaker, by

the Member for Burin - Placentia West and by the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: I really doubt if you ever had a train of

thought.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, I do. There are times but I cannot

keep it for too long. One of the problems with the government is they have all

of those backbenchers who really want to become ministers and then you have four

or five ministers who are petrified that they are going to get the boot. Now,

that is eight or ten people you have over there that are really in turmoil.

AN HON. MEMBER: A dangerous situation.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I say to the Minister of Environment and

Lands that I would do an environmental impact study on the caucus, if I were

you, because it has the potential to blow up over there. Then you have three or

four of them, Mr. Speaker, in after the Premier's job, so that brings her up to

ten, twelve, or thirteen. You have a third of the caucus, Mr. Speaker. I can

understand why the Premier is not well.

MR. TOBIN: Then you have Danny.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Then there is Danny Dumaresque. The

Member for Burin - Placentia West makes a very good point. Put Danny Dumaresque

in amongst all that, Mr. Speaker, and I am surprised that the Premier does not

have pneumonia, I tell you that.

MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, naming the member, that is

shocking.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I am sorry, the Member for Eagle River.

I apologize, Mr. Speaker. Now, that is what is happening over there. What a mess

over there, Mr. Speaker. All of that then with the terrible policies they are

trying to push down the throats of the people and with their own internal

problems is there any wonder why this Province is going nowhere with this

Administration, with this dictatorial attitude? This dictatorial attitude that

is not listening and members that are muzzled. We will watch very carefully over

the next few weeks, Mr. Speaker, when those major, significant, substantial

pieces of legislation come before this House for debate. We will be watching

very closely to see where members stand, what they say, and what they support.

There are some big decisions to be made here over the next couple of months, big

decisions, and serious implications for not only Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians of the day but future generations of Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians. Decisions we are going to make here sometime between now and I

would say the last of August. We might clue it up by Labour Day. That is if we

have a real reason to have a Labour Day in this Province this year, Mr. Speaker.

I do not know if we will have a purpose and a reason to do it

because this Premier is intent on breaking the backs of the union movement in

this Province. He is intent on breaking their backs, Mr. Speaker, and everything

that those unions have negotiated over the past twenty years. I hope members

have seen what is on the table, particularly with NAPE, I hope you have seen it

because there is not one benefit that has been negotiated in the last twenty

years that is not under attack by this Premier and this Minister of Finance.

There is not one item that has been negotiated for the past twenty years that is

not under attack by this Administration. Now, that is pretty serious stuff.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Sorry! I do not know what you said -

never went out on the street? I say to the Member for Eagle River, do not jump

too quickly. Is this it? Changes to severance pay provisions, changes to

Workers' Compensation benefits, changes to sick leave provisions, restructuring

initiatives in certain sectors - now that is a beaut - reduction in employer

contributions to pension plans. Those are only some of the things they have

there now.

What do you all think about that sick leave tampering? What

do you think about that? What do you honestly think about the threat to do away

with severance pay provisions? Are you all in favour of that over there?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: The Member for Eagle River is in favour

of it he says.

MR. TOBIN: I am not then.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Changes to Workers' Compensation

benefits, another reduction, how many people are in favour of that? A reduction

in employer contribution to the pension plans for the second year in a row, I

suppose we all agree with that? That is going to be a big help to the pension

plans.

AN HON. MEMBER: Two out of three (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Two out of three?

No, I say to the Member for Eagle River, it is people like

you that really worry me.

MR. DUMARESQUE: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: People like you worry me because like

the Premier, you see, there are too many double standards and that's the problem

with this Administration and this government. There are too many double

standards. It is alright to slash, to cut and to pull another needleful of blood

out of somebody else. That's the problem, no consideration for anyone else.

Let's wipe out the severance pay. Yes, that is a good thing to do. It should be

done anyway. Throw out all this sick leave, let's reduce that. We can't have

them building up all that sick leave. Give them five days then after that knock

them back to 75 per cent. Yes, let's do that. That is what's going on over

there. No planning, no thought, Mr. Speaker, into anything. Then they go and

slap it down on the table to the unions and expect them to lap it up and say:

yes, government we will go along with that. We have only been twenty years

negotiating those benefits. You take it, no problem. Why? Because one Clyde K.

Wells thinks we should have it cut, that is the problem. The rest of them over

there then: yes, Premier, and bow and nod their heads. Most of them don't say

anything they just nod in agreement.

MS. VERGE: Sure he's going to be gone in a couple of

years anyway.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, he won't be there to take the brunt

of it, the Member for Humber East is right. He will do all of this and then he

will run away with his tail between his legs.

MS. VERGE: With his Fortis buddies.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Run away with his tail between his legs,

that is what he'll do. The rest of them over there then will think that they

will be able to say: sure we didn't do that, that was Clyde. Clyde did that, we

didn't do that. That is what they think they'll be able to do. They're over

there now and they'll stand in their places, they'll support it and vote for it

but it will be too late then because you'll all be tarnished with it. I say to

the Member for Fortune - Hermitage, you don't seem like you're too happy with

what I am saying. It will be to late then. You won't be able to separate

yourself from Clyde Wells then. When you stand here day after day to debate,

debate and support him and vote for it, even though it is against the best

wishes of the people of your district, it will be too late then.

MR. LANGDON: I have a bad stomach. I am not listening

(inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well I can understand you have a bad

stomach if you are listening to me.

MR. LANGDON: No, you didn't cause that.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, but I'm just saying that I thought

you were taking exception to what I was saying about you won't be able to get

away from being tarnished with it because you're part and parcel of what's

happening now, is my point.

MS. VERGE: He might try to switch back to the PC's

though.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: What's that?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: He should take exception to it? Why,

because of what I said? Well he should never take exception to the truth, I say

to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, and you won't be able to separate

yourself from the decisions that this government is going to make over the next

five or six months with Hydro and with education.

MR. DUMARESQUE: I will be proud to stand here.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: You are not going to be able to say:

well, we had no part of that. It is going to be too late. Yes you will be proud

to stand there, you're right about that. I don't doubt that, I say to the Member

for Eagle River. He probably will be proud to stand there.

MS. VERGE: The last stand of the Liberal Party.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: But you won't be proud to swallow the

results when it comes down because you'll then turn on those who did it. That is

your personality and your nature. It'll be all someone else's fault then instead

of standing in your place now as a member of the caucus and telling them where

they are wrong, that is the problem. That is what's happening over there. Stand

up and be counted.

Maybe the people of the Province should be told all this, Mr.

Speaker. Maybe, Mr. Speaker, the people should be told.

AN HON. MEMBER: You can't say, will you run down and get

me some more money for this and money for that.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, you can. Why can't you? You can

tell him. I suppose you could give him your bank account, and you got some money

in it, you can tell him to go down and get a few dollars for you. You can go

down and do that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, we did it all the time.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: No, no. That argument doesn't wash any

more with the public either. I say to the Member for St. John's South, that

argument has worn through, it is worn thin. You can't go blaming it on `you

fellows', it is too far back. You fellows, you fellows.

You've ruined the Province. People have no confidence in you,

no confidence. You are all going to be turfed out, I say to the Member for St.

John's South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. W. MATTHEWS: You do, yes, oh yes. Mr. Speaker, I've

stood in my place in this House for the last four or five years and I've told

them that the direction that they've taken and the fiscal policy that they've

adopted for this Province has not worked. Each year the deficit for this

Province has gotten bigger. More people unemployed.

MR. MURPHY: The member said the same thing this time last

year. We had an election -

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Yes, I say, I know that, I went through

all that, I say to the Member for St. John's South.

MR. TOBIN: Only for the NDP he wouldn't even be back.

MR. W. MATTHEWS: Well, that could be, I don't know.

MR. TOBIN: Couldn't even get 50 per cent of the vote in

your district (inaudible).

MR. W. MATTHEWS: I don't know. There is another time

coming for that.