Manitoba Hansard — 19 November 2001 (Sitting 5, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-5

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba .. .... . � · .. . ·'" .··",�'.lJ �� ·' ..... , .. DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No.5- 1:30 p.m., Monday, November 19, 2001

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GlLLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

12 9 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, November 19, 2001 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education): I am pleased to table the following reports, copies of which have already been distributed: the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Annual Report for 2000-200 1; the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation First Quarter Report for the period April-June, 2001; Manitoba Women's Advisory Council Annual Report 2000-200 1; the Status of Women Annual Report 2000-2001; the Seniors Directorate Annual Report 2000-2001; the Council on Post-Sec ondary Education Annual Report 2000-2001; the University of Manitoba Annual Report 2000-200 1; the University of Winnipeg Financial Statements for the year ending March 31, 2001; Brandon University Annual Report for the year ended March 31, 2001; the Assiniboine Community College Annual Report 2000-2001; Red River College Annual Report 2000-200 1; and Keewatin Community College Annual Report 2000-200 1.

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table under The Regulations Act a copy of each regulation registered with the Registrar of Regulations since the regulations were tabled in this House in December of 2000. The remaining six binders have been provided to the Journals Clerk. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 6-- The Fortified Buildings Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Premier (Mr.

Doer), that leave be given to introduce Bill 6, The Fortified Buildings Act, and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Adminis trator, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House, and I would like to table the Admini strator's message. Motion presented. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, this bill establishes a scheme to deal with fortified buildings such as biker bunkers or other gang and crack houses that pose a risk to public safety. Motion agreed to. * (13 :35) Bill 300-An Act to Amend

an Act to Incorporate the Portage District General Hospital Foundation Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), that leave be given to introduce Bill 300,

An Act to Amend

an Act to Incor porate the Portage District General Hospital Foundation (and that the same be now received and read a first time). Motion agreed to. Bili200-The Elections Amendment Act Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Arthur Virden (Mr. Maguire), that leave be given to introduce Bill 200, The Elections Amendment Act, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to.

13 0 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 ,200 1 Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Ques tions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us Mr. Jody Carr, who is a member of the Legisla tive Assembly for New Brunswick, who is also accompanied by his wife. Also, in the public gallery we have from Linden Christian School, 75 Grade 5 students under the direction of Miss Brenda Klassen, Mrs. Rose Galston and Mrs. Hilda Bergen. This school is loca ted in the constitue ncy of the honourable Member tlor Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today . ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Minister of Education!, Training and Youth Credibility Mr. Harold Gilleshamrner (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, the Minis ter of Education (Mr. Caldwell) has directed Agassiz School Division to falsify their enrolment numbers . He has transmitted public funds in an underhanded manner. He has been caught by the Auditor, and he has not been open, honest and consis tent. In all of this, the truth has b€!en sacrificed. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Government House Leadc�r, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh! (Government House Leader): Reluctan tly, on the first question I am compelled to rise because: of the allegation of the member opposite direch!d to the Minis ter of Education. He clearly knows full well, and you ruled on the exact same wording last week, Mr. Speaker. We are all honourable members. Would you please ask him to withdraw the phrase ref erring to the issue of being honest? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Last week, on a number of occasions, the honourable minis ter was asked the question a number of times on whether he was open, honest and consis tent. He falsified the inf ormation that he gave to this House. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. All information that is brought to the House is treated as factual, and I would ask the honourable Member for Minnedosa to please withdraw the word of not being "hones t." Mr. Gilleshammer: I will withdraw it, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: I thank the honourable member. *** Mr.

Speaker: The honourable member, with his question. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the Prem ier (Mr. Doer) and others have said they agree in totality with the Auditor's report. The Auditor's report is in stark contrast to what the Minis ter of Education has been saying. The truth has been sacrificed in many of his comments. My question is: How can this minis ter have any credibility with educa tion stakeholders, with the public, and indeed with his col leagues? * (1 3:40) Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, I think this Government on each and every occasion since it has come to office, on matters to deal with education, whether it be the public school system or the post-seco ndary system, has taken a tack that is in support of public education excellence, in support of excellence in our post secondary system . On areas of operating, on areas of capital, on areas of consulta tion, this Government has been unparalleled in its support of the public school system in the province.

November 19 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 131 Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table three copies of an

article that was in the Brokenhead River Review, the paper that encompasses the Agassiz School Division. In this article, a spokesperson for Agassiz School Division indicat es: We knew we went too far; we were instructed to do so. This minister instructed that school division to falsify numbers- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, the member has had sufficient time, several months, to practise his Beauchesne's Citation 410 . As he knows full well, a supplementary question should have no

preamble. Would you please remind the member of that ruling that is well established in this Legislature? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Minnedosa. on the same point of order. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the Auditor's report indi cates that these funds were inappropriately sent to that school division. They say they believe in the Auditor's report. What the people from Agassiz School Division are saying reflects the comments of the Auditor. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members that Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplemen tary question should not require a

preamble. I would ask the honourable member to please put his question. *** Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, given that inf ormation, how does this minister do his job? How can anyone believe him anymore? He had denied these circumstances that have now been repeated in the Auditor's report and in this newspaper. Mr. Caldwell: I think we were quite consistent last week in asserting that we respect and ackn owledge the recommendations of the Provincial Auditor's report. Mr. Gilleshammer: Mr. Speaker, this minister has been anything but consis tent.

The Auditor's report and this school division have indicated that they were instructed to do this by this minister. He has no credibility. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: On the same point of order, the same substance, Citations 409 and 410 , indeed our rules say that continuing to violate the rules can even constitute privilege. Mr. Speaker, would you please remind the honourable member that supplementary questions, he can go on a new question, but supplementary questions require no

preamble. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Minnedosa, on the same point of order. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am simply asking the minister whether he instructed Agassiz School Division to fudge the numbers. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I ask the honourable Member for Minnedosa to please put his question. *** Mr. Gilleshammer: Will the minister confirm that he directed Agassiz School Division to fudge their numbers? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, the situation in Agassiz School Division obviously is very complex. It is a situation that we inherited from members opposite when they put into place an adult learning centre program that did not have any accounta bility guidelines, nor did it have any assurances that programs would be of any quality.

13 2 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 * (13: 45) Obviously, since November '99, we have been working assiduously as a government to put into place some controls on fiscal responsibil ity and some assurances that programs are going to be ones of excellence, Mr. Speaker. We will be continuing that process in this session with legislation on adult learning centres. Minister of Education, Training and Youth Credibility Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter of Education and Training.

On seven separate occasions in this House, the minis ter was asked about his actions regarding his openness, his consistency and his honesty in dealing with school divisions. On Friday last, I asked in this House whether the minis ter had ever funnellled money to a school division knowing that it was wrong and that there was no transparency in the counting of that money. He denied that and yet his deputy minis ter contrad icted him ..

My question to the minis ter is this: How can this mi nister expect anyone to believe him or to trust his actions, and how can he ever expect to have the trust of Manitobans in any thing he says or does? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Well, Mr. Speaker, ag ain, the record of this Government on matters educational speak for themselves. There has not been a government that has been more supportive of our public school system, of our post -seconda ry system and the students, educators and managers of that system in this province. Mr.

Speaker, as I said last week and have said, the decision on Agassiz was through the department's del egated authority. I accept the Auditor's judgment. The reason in the main that this is to light is because: of the comments and recommendations in the Auditor's report, inci dental ly, a report that my deputy referred to the Provincial Auditor's office some months ago for a full accounting on this situation. We have said repeate dly in this House, we accept the Auditor's criticisms and recommenda tions. I support my deputy in bringing this matter to the Auditor.

We are working to rectify a situation put in place by members opposite. Resignation Request Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): This minis ter has admitted that he fudged the num bers. He hid the money. My question is:- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Well reluctantly, Mr. Speaker, I have to get up. We did not waive the rules when we came into the House today . This issue has been raised twice already .

Clearly Beauchesne's says, and it has been ruled in this House week after week: A supplem entary question should need no

preamble, in 409, and supplemen tary questions require no

preambles in Citation 410 . Would you please ask for the co-operation of the Opposition and respect for our rules of proceeding. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on the same point of order. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I do have respect of you as the Speaker of this House, and I respect the rules of this House, but the statement that I made was that he fudged the numbers and he did it. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised Order. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a

November 19 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 3 supplemen tary question should not require a

preamble. I would ask the honourable Member for Russell to please put his question. *** Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, will this minister do the right thing now and resign since he has now forced the school division to go beyond the bounds of honesty and transparency? He has falsified documents and statem ents. We call on his resigna tion. Mr.

Caldwell: I was first asked to resign by members opposite within weeks of coming into this Chamber, something that I suppose all of us recognize in terms of partisan rhetoric inside this Chamber, but it does very little to advance issues of accuracy. * (13 :50) I have said in the House, and I say again right now, we do take responsibili ty for the department error, as identified in the Singleton audit. Mr.

Speaker, refe rring back to page 99 of the audit, on pages 98 and 99 of the audit, this audit that was prepared at the urging of my deputy to get to the bottom of the system that provided for no accounta bility, and we accept the Auditor's report. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, will this minister retain whatever strand of integrity he has left and ask his Premier to relieve him of his duties as Minister of Education because he has falsely made statements in this House? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I think it would be helpful for members to read through the total Provincial Auditor's Report and reflect on some of the findings on page 91 that deal with the actions or inactions of the previous government. We have, for our part, accepted the fact that the Auditor has said that improvements have been made under our watch but other improvements must also be made for the public funds in adult educa tion. Members opposite had their chance to deal with public accountab ility and public responsibility.

Perhaps they want to tell the people of Manitoba why they chose not to take these matters of accountab ility to the Provincial Auditor. At least this Minis ter of Education ensured that the deputy minister took this matter to the Provincial Auditor so the public good could be served. Minister of Education, Training and Youth Credibility Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the public good requires ministers of the Crown to be honest when they record the expenditure of public money. That is fundamental to our democracy.

I want to ask that minister: When the Auditor, a servant of this Legisla ture, says that his department provided half a million dollars to a school division in adult learning funds that they knew would not be viewed for that purpose, how does he have any credibil ity to come back in this Chamber as a Minister of Education? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I think the credibil ity of this Government on matters of public education speaks for itse lf, given the record of members opposite throughout the '90s. We accept the Auditor's criticism and recomm endations.

The department previous to our ascension to of fice did not have an eff ective monitoring process in place for quality control in programs or in accounta bility, for fiscal accounta bility. The changes made by this Government in 2001 -2002, to quote the Auditor: represent important improvements . We have made and will continue to make improvements in adult education through legislation, something members opposite did not consider at all in putting in place these program s. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask this minister if he has considered what the Auditor, a servant of this Legisla ture, had to say about his actions, and I quote from the Free Press: That they were totally unaccepta ble, and, I quote the Auditor, it is imperative that if the Legisla ture is going to vote money to be used for a specific purpose it should only be used for that specific purpose.

13 4 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 What does he say to the Auditor? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, as we have said repeatedly in the House, the Government and myself accept the Audi1tor's recommendations . [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Prior to recognizing the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members that questions and answers to questions should be pu1t to the Speaker. Resignation Request Mr. Darren Praznik (]Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask this minis ter if he is prepared to comply with what the Auditor said that what he did was unac cepta ble, if he will then accept the resp onsibili ty of a minis ter of the Crown and do what Francis Fox did, Jean Charest did, Alan Redman [phonetic} did and James Garner [phonetic j' did in Saskatchewan when they were caught doing something wrong, including James Garner [phonetic], who lied in the Legisla ture. Will he re:sign? * (13 :55) Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): I think it is instructive that it is this Government that engaged the Provincial Auditor to do a rev iew of the adult learning centre, as established by members opposite, that it was this Government that asked the Provincial Auditor to undertake an assessment of the accountab ility of the adult learning centres in the province, and it is this Government that is acting on the Provincial Auditor's recommendati ons. Minister of Education, Training and Youth Resignatio111 Request Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. Doer). The Minis ter of Education forced a school division to falsify their enrolment numbers . He :t:orced them to hide the payment of money. The Minis ter of Education has come into this Chamber and when asked what he knew, seven times he did not tell the truth. If a minis ter did that in my government, I would fire that minis ter. Do you have the courage to do the right thing, or is that the difference between you and me? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I know the Opposition is getting exercised as if they had discovered some deep dark secret when in fact this was all in the Provincial Auditor's report at the behest of the Department of Education. I raise the question about the words used by the Leader of the Opposition. He was not directing his remarks at the Speaker. He was not using the third person, and it is of course very important as we conduct our proceedings here in an orderly way that we not use words like "you" and "me." Instead, Mr.

Speaker, it should be directed to you in order to ensure there is some balance, there is some decorum and that there are not personal vendet tas that are played out in this Chamber. Would you please remind the member of that? Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, all too often this House Leader stands in def ence of his Leader and says it is leaders' latitude. Well, this is leaders' latitude, and this is not the first time this minister has been caught by the Auditor. The Auditor has ref erred to this minis ter on a number of occasions. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I just remind all members that questions and answers are to be put through the Chair. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. *** Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, with the greatest of respect to the theatrics of the Leader of the Opposition, he may want to pound his table, but if I had a critic in my group that

November 19 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 135 was as wrong as the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) on health care statistics and prostate cancer, I would take action as well in terms of the standards. So let not the member give us these theatrics. In 19 98-99, the Government was aware of serious shortc omings in the adult education area of government . There was a recommendation to go to the Provincial Auditor. Somebody over on the other side when they were in gov ernment stopped the movement to the Provincial Auditor to review the workings of the adult education branch. Look at page 91. It is ref erred to in that

section of the audit. Mr. Speaker, the Auditor has stated that improvements have been made over the past practices. Many improvements have been made. Other improvements must be made, and this Government is making those improvements . We are making them for the benefit of Manitobans after having the intestinal fortitude to go to the Provincial Auditor to get some of these issues reviewed independentl y. *(14: 00) Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, this is all about the integrity of this House and of this Government. I ask this Premier again : Will he show leadership and ask his minister to resign? Mr.

Doer: We showed leaders hip. We showed leadership by going to the Provincial Auditor. Your legacy of leadership is on page 91, when the former government did not have the integrity to take this matter to the Provincial Auditor. That is the difference between you and us. We went to the Provincial Auditor. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Doer: I might remind members that are pointing and yelling and scream ing from across the way that the Provincial Auditor determ ined that the last two years they were in office their total books did not represent accurate ly the total financial affairs of the total province. If the books do not tell the total picture of the total province, I would suggest to members opposite that they are fe igning indignation with a lot of hypocrisy in their soul. Mr. Murray: The First Minis ter talks about leader ship.

If his idea of leadership is to have somebody falsify records, falsify and force them to hide the payments of money, that is not leaders hip. There is no trust in that. I ask him aga in: Will he do the right thing and ask his Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) to resign? Mr. Doer: The Auditor's report has 10 0 pages of findings. In many pages there are weaknesses, failings, lack of accounta bility, lack of transparency, lack of service for the kids and youth that are responsible for receiving these program s. Page after page is a series of findings from the Provincial Auditor.

Part of those findings were that, unfortunately, in 19 98 when there was a recommendation to have the Provincial Auditor look at this matter, somebody stopped an audit from taking place. I am pleased that this minis ter and this Department of Education did proceed to the Provincial Auditor. I am pleased that the report has been made public, including the findings on page 99 of the Auditor's report. I am pleased that the Auditor said that improvements have been made. I accept the fact that there were findings, were shortcomings, for our Government. Unlike members opposite, we will take the shortc omings.

We have already changed the manner in which block funding was dele gated from the department to adult education centr es. We have already changed before the Auditor's report the manner in which those funds are accounted for under the adult education branch. We took action in the year 2000. We took action in 2001. We are continuing to take action because we are going to bring in legislation for 2002. Adult Learning Centres-Funding Treasury Board/Cabinet Submissions Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): On Friday the Minister of Education admitted in the hallway that this scheme to funnel money to Agassiz School Division was approved by Treasury Board. Did the minis ter knowingly sign a Treasury Board submission with these false

136 LEGISLAT IVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 numbers in it? Is that the information he took to Treasury Board? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Of course not, Mr. Speaker. The decision on Agassiz was through the department's deleg ated authority. I accept all the Auditor's judgments and take responsibility for them, as any minister should.

My deputy had the intestinal fortitude to see the adult education problem that we inherited and take it to the Auditor, something members opposite did not do when their deputy made the same recommendation a year bef ore we came to office. We have taken action at every step on this file. The Auditor has acknowledged in his final conclusion that important improvements have been made since this Government came to office, but further improvements will be required. We fully accept that. That is exactly right. We inherited a mess in adult education and are taking action to rectify it. Mr.

Gilleshammer: In Saturday's Free Press, the Minister of Education acknowledged that this went to Treasury Board and to Cabinet. Does he stand by the comments he made to the reporter from the Winnipeg Free Press that this was discussed in Cabinet? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Spea ker, I have been consi stent all along iin using the word "governmen t," of which I am a part. This decision was through the department's del egated authority. I accept the Auditor's judgment in this regard. Again, the adult ),earning centre issue in this province has been one that has caused no end of grief for more than one school division.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would ask for a little decorum in the House. We have the viewing public, we have school chiildren in the galleries. I would ask for a little co-oper ation from all honourable members. This is a time for questions and a time for answers. We would all like to hear the questions, and we would all like to hear the answers. I would ask for some co-operation from all m�:mbers, please. Order. The honourable Ministe:r of Education and Training has the floor. Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As a consequence of this Government's actions in asking the Provincial Auditor to under take a report in the rev iew of the adult learning centre program as estab lished by members opposite, we now have 45 recommendations from the Provincial Auditor. We have already implemented many of those recommendations, but I can assure this House that we will implement every one, including legislation which will become this session. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Minnedosa, with his final supplem entary question . Mr. Gilleshammer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister is confirming his difficulty with the truth by dancing with his answer again. He indi cated that Cabinet had full knowledge of this; now he is backing away from that. Which- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, once again would you please remind the member that supplem entary questions, it is his final supplem entary, require no

preamble. It is the rule of this House. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne's 409(2) advises that a supplemen tary question should not require a

preamble. I would ask the honourable Member for Minnedosa to please put his question. *** Mr. Gilleshammer: Can the minister confirm that this inf ormation about Agassiz's enrolments went to Treasury Board and to Cabinet? Can he confirm that? Mr. Caldwell: No, Mr. Speaker. For two years now we have been trying to put accountab ility back into the system while protecting the interests of students. We accept the Auditor's crit icisms, as I have said repeat edly in this House, for any decisions we have made, and we accept all of his recommenda tions.

November 19 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 137 Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate . I do believe the honourable mm1ster has already answered the question. He said, no, it did not go to Cabinet. That is fine. I do not think he has to keep dancing. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minis ter of Education and Training, on the same point of order. * (14:10 ) Mr. Caldwell: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is imp ortant to put on the record again that decisions on Agassiz were made through the dep artme nt's delegated authority . Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. It says Beauchesne's Citation 417: Answers to questions should deal with the matter raised. Adult Learning Centres Funding Formula Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, when the NDP were elected, funding of adult education was based on September 30 enrolment, the same method used to fund Grades 1 to 12 , Senior 4 as Grade 12 is now referred to. This approach was totally inappropriate for adult learners, where learners often come and go during the year, sometimes in large numbers, and where learners may study for very variable periods of time, quite diffe rent from Grades 1 to 12 .

My question to the Minis ter of Education: I ask the minis ter to ac knowledge that the use of September 30 enrolment as the funding base for adult education was totally inappropriate, that indeed it was an absurd system for adult educati on. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I will ac knowledge that the adult learning centre program as set up by members opposite was indeed an absurd situation.

It had no accountab ility in terms of fiscal management or program quality. will also acknowledge that as a consequence of the Deloitte & Touche audit that was undertaken shortly after this Government came into office, we discovered in excess of a 10 0% overexpenditure in adult learning centre programs in the province of Manitoba. We will also acknowledge as a consequence of that massive overexpenditure, we began to review the adult learning centre programs in the province of Manitoba with a view, Mr. Speaker, to bring some accountab ility to this program . Mr. Gerrard: My supplemen tary, Mr.

Speaker, to the Minis ter of Education: Knowing that this approach to funding adult education was so inappropriate and ridic ulous, why did the minister continue to use it for two years after he became the minis ter? Mr. Caldwell: Well, Mr. Speaker, obviously we have been in this House for two years now or two years and a month . Obviously when you are making massive change to a system that did not have any safeguards brought in as part of its initial structure, there are changes that have to be made in a sensitive and cautious manner so as they do not jeopardize the stability of the public education syst em.

We belie ve in acting in a mode rate and balanced fashion, Mr. Speaker, one that does not undermine public education or undermine adult learning centres that are functioning in the province. Minister of Education, Training and Youth Resignation Request Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My supplemen tary to the Premier: I ask the Premier to act. His Minis ter of Education has persisted in using an absurd system for two years after he became minis ter. He has been caught instructing school divisions to fudge their books, to give them money under the table.

Will the minis ter now ask for the resignation of his Minis ter of Education?

138 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Members opposite are inventing terms with great liberal attitudes to the truth. Mr. Spea ker, the Auditor's statement says: The department did not reduce the Agas siz School Division. They do not make all these other allegations or findings that members opposite have been liberally, liberally making and rhetorically making fi)r the last half hour. Secondly, the amount of money that was budgeted in '99-2000 was $6 million.

The amount of money that was spent in '99-2000, when we came into office, was at that point identified as $17 million, $11 million over budget. So no wonder members opposite yell very loud, because $1 1 million over budget on a $6-million item is not my definition of accountability of public money. Se condly, Mr. Speaker, the amount of public money that has been allocated to this program that has some need in our society for adult education has been reduc<ed from $17 million to $15 milli on, is budgete:d this year for $14 million. Mr.

Speaker, the Auditor's report does not conclude, as the Member for River Heig hts concludes, that nothing has happened over two years . The Auditor says that improvements have been made. I know, for exa mple, the way in which the programs are funded have gone from block fundings under The Public Fin ance Act, which is del egated to the: authorities, including the deputy minis ter, whiich members opposite know, has been moved from block-funding alloca tions to specific allocations under another

section of the Department of Education to get at these issues of accountab ility and proper accounting of numbers and public monies. We reduced the money; we have improved the procedur es; we accept the findings of the Auditor's report. We are: going to improve it operationally and we are: going to change the legisla tion to protect the people of Manitoba. That is a promise made in the Speech from the Throne in 20 01, Mr. Speaker. Minister of Education, Training and Youth Credibility Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): More hollow promises. I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Doer), then, despite all his good intentions today, how does he explain to Manitobans the words of the Sec retary-Treasurer of the Agassiz School Division, who said last January in a report to her board, basically they, the Government, have found a way to funnel $450,000 into the division without drawing attention to the gift and that they would ac cept numbers that they knew were wrong. I want him to answer to that school division chair who said today in the newspaper that they went further than they should have, but were forced, instructed to do it, by his minis ter. Where is the accounta bility, Mr. Premier?

Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Well, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate, as the Premier has mentioned earlier, that this does provide good theatre. The fact of the matter is that this Government engaged the Provincial Auditor to get to the bottom of an adult learning centre program for this province designed by members opposite that had no provisions for accountab ility, no provisions for program quality.

It is this Government, the Government that asked the Provincial Auditor to undertake this review, that is accepting his recommendations and is acting to put some accounta bility into the adult learning centres around the province of Manitoba. Agassiz School Division Adult Learning Centres-Funding Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): would just ask the minis ter if he accepts this quotation in the paper today. It says: Caldwell acknow ledged yesterday he and the NDP Cabinet knew Agassiz' s enrolments were inflated, but decided to fund the entire enrolment anyway because the division was strapped for cash.

Does he accept that as the truth? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): I accept the recommendations of the Provincial Auditor's report. I accept that the Provincial Auditor undertook his report at our invitation, the deputy mini ster, in wanting to get to the bottom of a situation that was clearly out of contr ol, a budgeted amount of $6.6 million, which

November 19 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 13 9 translated to $17 million in expenditures under the watch of the members opposite. I think it is important that we do bring some coherence to the adult learning centre programs in the province of Manitoba. Indeed that is what we are engaged in. Mr. Gillesbammer: A second paragraph: Caldwell said the Government was right to give $450,000 to Agassiz, even if doing it through enrolment- Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would like to remind all honourable members, whether quoting from the paper or a third party, that all members in the House are to be addressed by their constituencies, or ministers by their titles. I would ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Mr. Gilleshammer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On a new question. Does the honourable minister stand by his statement that the Government was right to give $450,000 to Agassiz, even if doing it through enrolment grants was questionable? * (1 4:20) Mr.

Caldwell: I would like to table at this time, November 16 , 20 01, released from the Agassiz School Division the document that I place credibility in and the document that is, I think, the salient one in this House, the Provincial Auditor's report, the conclusions of which and the recommendations of which we agree with. There are obviously many real challenges in this issue. There are financial challenges, which we accept and are taking action on.. There are questions about the program quality, also issues we are taking action on and have been since coming to office.

The Provincial Auditor's recommendations and conclusions are accepted by this Government. Mr. Gilleshammer: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. Does the honourable minister still stand by his statement that the Government was right to give $450,000 to Agassiz, even if doing it through enrolment grants was questionable? Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, this is something that I have said in this House both this morning and late last week, that I accept the Auditor's judgment and take responsibility for any error that was made, as any minister should.

The decision on Agassiz was made through the department's delegated authority. My deputy had the intestinal fortitude to see the adult education problem that this Government inherited upon coming to office and take it to the Auditor, something members opposite had the opportunity to do and did not. This Government is trying to clean up a mess that is a legacy given to us by members opposite. Adult Learning Centres-Funding Minister's Statements Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, the Free Press called this a scandal.

When the minister was answering a question on Friday, members in the gallery said: This is a lie. That is not a word I can use in this Chamber, but indeed it does reflect what Manitobans think this minister is doing in this House and outside the House. I ask this Minister of Education why his statements in this House were contradicted by the Auditor, by his own deputy minister, and by himself when he spoke to the press hours later. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, there is no contradiction in my taking responsibility for the department's decision to exercise its delegated authority. We accept, and I accept the Auditor's judgments and take responsibility for that error. As the Auditor himself notes on page 99, the department did not reduce Agassiz School Division's ALC funding acknowledging that this school division needs the funds to mitigate their deficit situation. This Government cares about children. This Government cares about stability in our public school system, in our adult learning centres and in our post-secondary system.

The ALC's expenditures for overbudgeting were $10 million

14 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 when this Government came to office, from a budgeted amount of $6.6 million to an actual amount of $17 million. That raised alarm bells in the department's office, as it should. As this issue progressed, the deputy brought the Provincial Auditor in, which is appropriate action to take. Minister of Education, Training and Youth Resignation Request Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, on a new question. The Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) referenced the children of our province.

The parents, the children, the students in our schools expect that a Minister of Education will tell the truth. We have not seen that in this House today. Children in this province expect more from a minister than him standing in the House here misleading this House and then going out of the Chamber- Mr. Speaker: Order. I would just like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members about dishonesties and misleadings, and I would ask members just to be a little careful in choosing yow words. We are all honourable members in this House, and hopefully we will treat each other with utmost respect. Mr.

Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I respect your ruling and I expect your caution, but the actions of this minister speak for themselves. If this minister has any shred of integrity, if he has any shred of decency, and if he has any shred of compassion for the students of this province and indeed the leadership that a Minister of Education should display, then he would resign. I ask him to do the honourable thing and tender his resignation. Some Honourable Membt�rs: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, some of us might remember past incidents where individual ministers lost their hiring authority under the Civil Service Commission and will find it passing strange at the kind of theatrics in the House today. Mr. Speaker, we will make our decisions not on the basis of theatre and comments but on the basis of the Auditor's report. The Auditor's report says that-well, you can go through the Auditor's report, page 91, on the fact that an audit should have taken place in 19 91. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised, not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, I expect more from a Premier than to dump on somebody and use the words that he is using and the accusations. It is his minister who should be resigning, and it is his minister who has made the mistakes. Twice the Auditor has said that. An Honourable Member: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Well, if you have new information. The honourable Member for Russell, on the same point of order with new information. Mr. Derkach: On the same point of order, Mr.

Speaker. I know very well the minister who lost his hiring authority, but that minister did not lose his position for lying, as this minister has done. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): The phrase "over the top" comes to mind, Mr. Speaker. I believe the honourable member opposite just acknowledged your ruling and accepted it and then went on to use, I believe, as I recall, unparliamentary language. I ask that you check the record to determine that that indeed was the case and ask him to withdraw if it is determined he used the word "lying" as referring to the Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I will take the matter under advisement to peruse Hansard and consult the procedural authorities, and I will report back to the House. * * *

November 19 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 141 * (1 4:30) Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to conclude his comments. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of sections in the Auditor's report that deal with serious shortcomings of financial and student outcomes prior to our coming into office. The Auditor then goes on to say that the Government made improvements to the system that they inherited in government. The Auditor correctly states that there were a couple of other difficulties- Point of Order Mr. Laurendeau: Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne's 417: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. The Premier has been dancing to protect his minister. The question was not even put to the Premier, so the leader's latitude does not apply. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the question is dealing with an individual Cabinet minister, and the source of our reply to a very specific question is not the theatrical comments of members opposite but the factual comments contained within an Auditor's report. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition, I will take the matter under advisement and see if I can arrange a meeting with the House leaders to try and deal with this one issue that has been reoccurring session after session. I will see if I can organize a meeting with House leaders to address this. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to please conclude your comments. Mr. Doer: As I was saying, the Auditor's report says, and I quote-members opposite have identified all kinds of sources for their authority.

It says, and I quote: not the minister, not this, not that, not something else, the department did not reduce the Agassiz School branch. Mr. Speaker, the minister has accepted more responsibility for the two negative comments in the Auditor's report than I have heard from the previous II years in this House. The minister is entitled to be evaluated on both the improvements that were made and the findings that were short. He has accepted responsibility, something that was foreign to this House for 1I years. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS University of Manitoba Bisons Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): This year the University of Manitoba Bisons Football Club completed their regular season with a record of seven wins and one loss in the Canada West Conference, a remarkable turnaround from the last number of years. Two weeks ago the Bisons defeated the University of Calgary Dinos 31 to 10 in the conference semi-final and went on to claim the Hardy Cup the next week by defeating the Regina Rams 23 to 17 in the western final. It was 28 years ago that the Herd, as they are affectionately known, hoisted this Canada West Championship Cup.

This past weekend the Bisons played McMaster University Marauders for the Churchill Bowl at Canad Inns Stadium. After a defensive struggle in the first half with the score 6 to 3, both teams went to the dressing rooms to regroup. Early in the third quarter, McMaster carried the play running the football deep into Manitoba territory only to have their only touchdown called back on a penalty. This seemed to be the turning point of the game. Realizing a lucky break, the Herd went on to make brilliant plays led by a stingy defence and by quarterback Shane Munson who carried the ball for Manitoba's first touchdown.

The Herd never looked back, going to a 27 to 6 victory claiming the Churchill Bowl for the University of Manitoba. The last time Manitoba won the Churchill Bowl, 31 years ago, Coach Dobie was a player for the Herd. I am especially proud of my nephew David Hewson who is a defensive back with the Herd. David made at least two

142 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19, 2001 touchdown-saving plays <md numerous tackles against a tough McMaster team. David is proud to be a part of the Bison team, a great Bison team. Now the Bisons are on to SkyDome in Toronto December I to play the University of St. Mary's Huskies for the Vanier Cup, the Canadian Collegiate Football Championship Trophy. We wish Coach Dobie, the coaching staff, all the players and fans of the Herd every success in the championship game, which should be an exciting time for our Manitoba football heroes. Minister of Education, Training and Youth Mr.

Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I am astounded by the absolute contempt and utter lack of respect that the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) has shown toward the British parliamentary process and principles on which this Legislature is foundt!d. On no less than seven different occasions in this House, the minister was asked if he had acted in a consistent, open and honest manner when dealing with the adult learning centre issue. Each and every time the minister stated he had. However, his actions prove otherwise. The minister was asked in this House if he had sought Treasury Board approval.

He refused to answer. Yet later, while talking to the media in the hallway, he confessf�d that the matter had indeed gone before Treasury Board and the Cabinet. The Minister of Education has repeatedly shown his disrespect for Manitobans and for our parliamentary process by failing to set the record straight on this important issue. The minister's arrogance and contempt, his complete disregard for the parliamentary process, set an extremely poor example for the young people with whose educational welfare he is charged. Manitobans deserve better. It is time for this minister to be removed.

Ecole Marie-Anne-Gaboury Walk-a-thon Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Many Manitoba schools decided to support victims of the September 11 terrorist attacks in the United States. Students were affe<:ted by the event and the possibility of war. The Ecole Marie-Anne-Gaboury parent council in my constituency was already planning a major fundraiser when the attacks took place. I joined the students and parents on September 27 for a 4.7 kilometre walk-a-thon to St. Vital Park and back, with proceeds to go for the cultural activities at the school. Participants also donated funds for the American Red Cross.

Julie Zilkie, Grade 6 student, and her friend Victoria Konidaris, felt the urge to help and decided to hold a bake sale at their school to raise money for the Red Cross. They spoke to their principal, their teacher and classmates, and soon 24 Grade 6 students were busy preparing cookies, muffins, brownies and other goodies. On September 25, the bake sale raised nearly $300. Wendy Zilkie, president of the parent committee, said her daughter Julie was deeply affected by the events of September 11 . The organization of the bake sale enabled her and her peers to help with the rescue effort in New York.

Congratulations to Julie, Victoria and their classmates for caring about the victims and their families. Congratulations to Ecole Marie-Anne Gaboury parent council for its efforts to raise money both for the victims and the schools enrichment program. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Minister of Education, Training and Youth Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, it should come as no surprise to Manitobans that this Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) and Premier (Mr. Doer) have not been open and honest with Manitobans when it comes to their lack of management skills.

The adult education funding issue is a case in point, but there are other examples of this Government's inability to keep its word to organize the affairs of government. Manitobans remember all too well that this Minister of Education tried unsuccessfully to raid Manitoba Public Insurance and provide a $20-million gift to our universities. Once Manitobans caught them with their hands in the cookie jar, the Government quickly reversed their decision. Unfortunately, Manitobans are not surprised when this Premier or one of his ministers do not

November 19, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 143 quite get their facts straight. Manitobans know that the Premier promised to end hallway medicine in six months yet has failed miserably. Manitobans did not misunderstand what the Premier promised, as he likes to tell them they did. Manitobans also remember the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) crying against frozen food. Now the minister is shipping in five-day-old sandwiches from Alberta. Manitobans remember. * (1 4:4 0) Mr.

Speaker, it is an absolute shame that Manitobans have come to expect such shady actions from this Minister of Education and this Premier. Thank you. September 11 Memorial Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I want to speak today about the catastrophe of September 11 by highlighting a ceremony that took place in west Transcona on October 3. I want to give special recognition to the Tri-plex Tenants' Association in the Manitoba Housing complex on Plessis Road, who organized a heartfelt memorial in Transcona.

This ceremony involved the Transcona Memorial United Church minister Carol Fletcher and the choir, the District 4 police, Gary Walker, the chief firefighter for District 4, Les Whal, and EMS staff inspector Rick Cieciwa. Members of the Transcona Pipe Band and residents were also there. Citizens felt they had to do something to make sense of this for themselves, and particularly the children in the area, who after watching television were asking many questions. The community also felt a need to make a statement in the neighbourhood against racism and intolerance and for a free and democratic world.

We came together as well to mourn as a community the loss of life and to recognize the EMS personnel who risked their own lives and died to save and assist others. Mr. Speaker, the local emergency response staff in Transcona appreciated the connection being made between September 11 in New York and Washington D.C. and the work that our emergency staff do every day here at home.

The stone urn that was dedicated with candles and hymns was sited this last Friday, November 9 at the police and fire station at Pandora and Plessis in Transcona by Murray Rougeau, the fire paramedics staff, and Glen Stefanec, the local community police officer. The stone urn with flowers will be a permanent remembrance for the role that EMS staff play to keep us all safe and secure. Thank you. * (14 :40) ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Third Day of Debate) Mr.

Speaker: Resume debate on the amendment proposed by the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, standing in the name of the honourable Member for River East who has 17 minutes remaining. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): I had several issues that I had wanted to discuss when I last had the opportunity to speak and ran out of time. The short break between last week and this week has certainly given me no choice but to speak on the scandalous activity that has been happening as a result of decisions that have been made by this Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) that have come to light.

I think it is absolutely despicable that we would have to stand in this House and ask questions and hear the Minister of Education fudge the truth and cover up the kinds of activities that have been ongoing under his watch and through his department. I cannot help but have noticed the arrogant attitude of this minister with the smirk on his face as he has answered the questions and tried to toss them off as light questions, tossed them off as theatre. I might quote him. I heard him say today that the kinds of questions that we have asked provide for good theatre.

Well, if this Minister of Education believes that asking questions about his integrity and his telling the truth to Manitoba students and to Manitoba taxpayers is theatre, then I say shame

144 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19, 2001 on him, shame on him for taking that kind of an arrogant attitude. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Mr. Deputy Speaker, I watched with interest when questions were asked. I watched ministers of the Crown, ministers that sat on Treasury Board smirking and laughing and making very light of a very serious situation, one that I have never seen in my 15 years as an elected member in this Legislature. We sat around a government table for II years in this Chamber. We were never in a position or a situation where we lied when asked a question.

Part of the process of being sworn in as a minister of the Crown and taking an oath, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is to tell the truth. Very often decisions got made that were questioned. Very often we were on the hot seat for issues of the day for things that the opposition of the day felt were inappropriate or not the kinds of decisions they would have made. Very often we were asked questions in this House and asked questions by the media as a result of questions in this House. We were told by our Premier that the most important thing for us to do was tell the truth .

We were obligated under the oath of office that we took to be honest with the taxpayers and the people of Manitoba. Our former premier would not have tolerated any minister not telling the truth, and we have seen this Minister of Education last week say certain things in this House that he contradicted when he walked out into the hall and talked to the media. We have seen this Minister of Education today come into this House and give contradictory statements to what he gave to the media last week and to what he answered in the House last week. I believe that the truth escapes this Minister of Education.

I believe that the Premier today has showed a lack of leadership and complete disregard for the parliamentary system that is in place in this country. I think that speaks volumes about this Government and their attitude. They do not believe that they have to be accountable to the taxpayers of Manitoba. Well, we can just tell a st ory. We do not hav,e to tell the truth and maybe we will get away with it. That is not good enough. I say that the scandal that we are seeing today is going to live to haunt this Premier (Mr. Doer), this Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) and his Government.

I heard the Minister of Education and the Premier today both blame the department for the circumstances that they find themselves in today and for the cover-up and the fudging of the books and the fudging of the numbers. Well, who is in charge? Is it the Minister of Education who has responsibility for the expenditure lines within his department? Is the Premier in charge of his Cabinet and the Government of Manitoba? The last time I looked, the bureaucracy was there to serve the ministers and the Cabinet of the Province of Manitoba.

I see nowhere the arrogant kind of attitude and comments that we have heard from this Premier and this Minister of Education, who would deflect to the bureaucracy and blame them when ultimately the decision rests on the elected officials who are in charge of operating the affairs on behalf of the taxpayers of Manitoba. But it is this kind of arrogance that will ensure that this Government is brought to its knees. I say shame. Shame on the Premier. I heard him in Question Period, one of the first times the Premier (Mr.

Doer) got up to answer a question, try to deflect away from the real issues by making personal attacks on the credibility of members on this side of the House. I have heard not only the Premier, but I have heard the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) from time to time attack the credibility of my coll eague the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it always seems to happen when they do not have the answers.

When they are trying to skirt around the issues, they take great delight in personally attacking members on our side of the House. * (14: 50) Well, that certainly shows the kind of arrogance that we are seeing just two years into this Government's mandate, and that kind of arrogance shows very clearly that this Government is on its way on a very slippery slope. We have seen the first chink in this

November 19, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 145 Government's armour. It is the lack of credibility, the lack of accountability, the lack of the ability to tell the truth to Manitoba taxpayers and blame everyone else for the circumstances that they find themselves in. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I find it unconscionable. I find the arrogance-and I repeat that word because I have seen it day after day. We have seen it since this Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) was appointed to the ministry. His answers are very flippant.

It reflects very poorly on all members on the government side of the House when you have the arrogance that the Minister of Education displays. It also reflects very poorly on the decision making and the leadership that this Premier (Mr. Doer) shows to Manitobans. There is a clear lack of leadership. There is a clear lack of taking responsibility for the actions of his ministers and making the appropriate changes that need to be made. In my mind, Mr. Deputy Speaker, this Government has stooped to an all-time low, something that I have never seen in my 15 years being elected in this Legislature.

I would venture to guess that as much as the Premier (Mr. Doer) would like to see this issue go away, would like to see this issue swept under the carpet, the end is nowhere near. He will find out over the next weeks and months- [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker, the arrogance of the Premier of the Province of Manitoba has just been shown as he sits in his place in the Legislature. If he has something to say, he should stand to his feet, be a man and put on the record the kinds of comments that he has just been putting on the record. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the lack of leadership on behalf of this Premier, as he sits in his seat and smirks, is disrespectful to the taxpayers of Manitoba that elected him to govern this province. The arrogance speaks much about the attitude of this Government. Manitobans will not forget easily the attitude and the lack of truth that permeates that side of the Legislature. They will know, and we will not let them forget what we are seeing today. I just want to close my remarks by saying it is unfortunate.

There are many other issues that should have been discussed as we debated the Throne Speech, but this Government has shown us over the last week that the kinds of issues, the kinds of activities, the kinds of decisions and the lack of responsibility that the Minister of Education has shown, the lack of respect for the taxpayers of Manitoba is one that needs to be put on the record. Manitobans need to know the kind of government that we have in the province Manitoba. I say shame on the Government. We will not let this issue go.

We know that there is much that the public of Manitoba needs to know, and they will find out over the next short period of time. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): I would like to begin my comments by welcoming the new pages who are here for their first weeks of working with us in the House. They perform very important functions, and I hope they enjoy their time here, and also the interns who were introduced to the House last week, three interns for the Official Opposition and three interns for the government caucus.

I had the honour and privilege of sitting on the hiring committee for a number of years, along with the member for Gladstone, and hiring the interns. They are and have been-I think it has been 15 years now-a remarkable set of young people, many of whom have gone on to work in government. We are very pleased with the calibre of the interns for this year. I know that they have already done great service for the respective caucuses. Before I get on to the Speech from the Throne, I would like to compliment two of our sports teams.

I think it is a wonderful thing that the Bisons are going to the Vanier Cup on December 1 and that the Blue Bombers are going to the Grey Cup this next Sunday in Montreal. For those of us who enjoy sports, this is a great time to be from Winnipeg and from Manitoba. I think that the two teams have shown their courage and their determination. They have overcome years of adversity, years of losing teams, of losing seasons. Anyone who has followed sports teams over the years knows how difficult it is to have teams that are not doing

I4 6 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November I9 , 200I well and how wonderful it is to be able to support teams when they do well, as both the Bisons and the Blue Bombers have done this season . I wish them all the� best in this next week and little bit more for the Bisons. A couple of areas I would like to speak on in the Speech from the Throne in areas that are particularly of interest to me as Minis ter of Labour and Immigration, one is the Workplace Safety and Health process that is underway .

As members may recall on September I 0, I believe, we announced a six-point strategy for Workplace Safety and Health Injury Preven tion. I would like to read into the record those six points. First, is setting a target for workplace injury reduction of IS p�:rcent over four years through a ma jor joint ef fort between the Manitoba Labour and Immig ration and the Workers Compensation Board.

Reaching the IS % reduction target would mean approximately 3000 fe wer workers suffe:ring from a time-loss injury over a course of a year, 3000 families that would not have to deal with the loss of earnings, the injury or, in some cases, unfortunately, the death of a loved one. Second, targeting young worker injury, young and inexperienced workers suffe r an excessive number of workplace injuries. Ideas for improvement include adequate safety instruction in apprentic1�ship and industrial training programs and delivering health and safety instruction in high schools.

Third, we are looking at areas to strengthen occupational disease prevention to address the problem of chemical, mould an_d other contaminants in workplaces through Improved enf orcement of the workplace hazardous materi als information syst1�m and the workplace health hazard regula tions. The health hazard regulations will also be reviewed to assess their adequac ies in today's workplaces. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, as we all know, workplaces are very diffe rent today than they were in the past, �d we need to look at, particularly in these tr oubling times, issues of contamination and issues of occupational disease and illness. Fourth, we are going to look at improving the enf orcement of curr1�nt workplace safety legislation and codes with more ef fective workplace inspections and investigations with particular attention paid to high-risk workplaces.

Fifth, we think it is important to improve agri cultural safety and health by working with stakeholders in the agricultural sector to improve education and strengthen safety measures. Nearly half of Manitoba's traumatic workplace fatalities are in the agricultural sector, and many of those fatalities are young people, people five and six and seven years of age, and older individuals who unfortunately have succumbed to injuries and fatalities in the agri cultural sector.

We are also, as part of this six-point plan, undertaking a legislative review of The Workplace Safety and Health Act which was first enacted in 19 77, almost a quarter of a century ago, which has not been subject to a ma jor re view since 19 83, I8 years ago.

The �ct will be rev iewed with a view towards developmg a made-in-Manitoba solution based on public and stakeholder input and best practices to modernize the act and improve prevention of workplace illness and in jury. * (15:00) I was very pleased to announce this six point strategy and to have in place �d �vaila?le to everyone who is interested a pubhc discussion paper that was presented in September, as well, called Improving Workplace Safety and Health in Manitoba, Education Prevention and Enforcement, a document that was prepared, outlining many of the issues that I have spoken about here and others, giving a sense of the current situation in Manitoba's workplaces and asking some questions of the public, not exhaustive questions but questions that were designed to elicit responses, to elicit sugge stions, concerns and ideas for improving workplace safety and health through things that the Depa rtment of Labour can do itself , through interdepartmental activities that can be done by a number of departments within government and how other orga niza tions, labour movement, labour organiza tions, employer orga niza tions, how the education syst em, how everyone can have an input into making our workplaces safer and healthier.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, as we know, every single person in the province of Manitoba either

November 19 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 7 is a worker or is related to a worker either as a member of the family, as a brother, a sister, a mother, a father, a grandparent, cousins, nephews. We all are linked to the workplace in one way or another, and we need to ensure that those workplaces, today's modem workplaces in the year 2001, are as safe and as healthy as we possibly can make it, because no one wants to have a workplace injury or illness and no one certainly wants to have a workplace fatality.

Not a single person in this province, whether they are an employee, a worker or a family member wants to have unsafe workplaces. In light of the six-point plan, the Government has put together a series of public meetings and a very extensive consultation process. A review committee is holding 18 different public hearings in a number of different communities. Those communities include Brandon, Winnipeg, Lac du Bonnet, Steinbach, Flin Flon, Thompson, Swan River, Winkler, Gimli, and, as I said, Winnipeg. There will be four sessions in Winnipeg. There has been one session in each of the other communities.

The response to these public meetings has been outstanding. To date there have been 288 people attending the public hearings and 87 submissions. Now, I think what is interesting, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that people would come to the public hearing.

They would not have signed up to speak at the public hearing for making an official presentation, but when they got to the public hearing and they heard other people's suggestions, other people's concerns, other people's stories, whether they were workers, members of a union or an employer, it motivated people in virtually every single public hearing to ask to speak and to share their stories, their concerns and their suggestions at the public hearings.

As you can tell from the list of locations that I have read out that by the end of the process early next month, the public hearing process, we will have literally covered the province. We will have visited every region of the province and spoken to literally hundreds of people. To date, as I have stated, almost 300 people have attended so far. My figures show that almost 450 people will have signed up or spoken by the end of the meetings in Winnipeg early in December.

Now, I expect that number to increase because people are calling up asking to have their names put on every day, and people will come to the public hearing and make presentations there. This public hearing process is being put forward. The group that is hearing it, the review committee, I would like to speak about them. There are four individuals on this review committee. Wally Fox-Decent is the chairperson. Mr. Fox-Decent, as we know, is the chair of the Workers Compensation Board, but he is also a man who has had approximately 30 years experience as a mediator, an arbitrator in labour management disputes.

He has been a professor of political studies at the University of Manitoba. He has chaired a number of province wide committees such as the commission on pay pension and allowances for members of the Legislature, three Manitoba constitutional task forces, and he chairs the advisory council on workplace safety and health and chairs the Labour Management Review Committee. So, as you can see, the chair of this review committee has an enormous amount of experience for decades in Manitoba dealing not only with labour-management issues and workers compensation issues but a broad range of issues.

I dare say that there is no one more respected in this area than Professor Fox-Decent. We also have three other representatives on this review committee. Chris Lorenc is the designate from the management portion of the workplace safety and health advisory council, and he represents the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association. He was also a former city councillor and is well respected. The Heavy Construction Association has, I believe, a monthly newsletter that they send out to all of their members. In every single one of those issues is an

article or ideas on workplace safety and health. As you can understand, heavy construction is an area where the potential for workplace injury is quite good, or bad. Mr. Lorenc's group has done an enormous amount of work in giving workplace safety and health a very high priority for his association and by extension the industry as a whole. The designate from Labour is Pete Walker, who is the occupational health safety and environmental representative from the Manitoba

148 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 Federation of Labour on the advisory council. He has got exte nsive experience in the whole area of workplace safety and health for a number of years. If I read the number of committees he has chaired or been on we would be here for another hour. The final representative is Ilana Warner. She is a technical representative from the advisory council on workplace safety and health. She represents the Manitoba Associa tion of Registered Nurses.

She has had a 36-year career in the nursing field, in the health care field, and brings an enormous amount of experience to this task force. As members may or may not know, the health care field is ont! of the fields that is growing in health and safety issues, and it is one that we wanted to have reflected in the task force. So, as I have said, Mr .. Deputy Speaker, we believe that we have a very good process underway to look at the entire issue of workplace safety and health. It is taking a good portion of time. We are travelling the province. We are listening to literally hundreds of people.

We also have agreed to meet and I have actually met with several orga nizations and will continue to do so. On a personal lev1el, anyone who wants to speak to me about these! issues is more than welcome to speak with me. So I think we have done a very good job, and I am quite looking forward to the report that will be coming to me and Government shortly after the end of public heariings on the workplace safety and health area. The other area that I would like to spend some time on, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is the area of immig ration.

I am very proud of the work that this Government has done in the area of immigra tion. We all know that there are very severe labour shortages in the province of Manitoba, and one of the areas, although only one portion of it, that we are working to fac ilitate and assist in this labour shortage area is through the area of immigra tion.

To give the former government its due, the former government initiat,ed a program called the Provincial Nominee Program with the fe deral government in October of 19 98 at which point the fe deral government agreed that the province could select immi grants to come to Manitoba who had skills that were in short supply in the province and could do everything to select these immi grants with the exception of a security check and a health care check which would still be done by the fe deral government.

This would mean that instead of it taking years in many cases to come to Manitoba as an imm igrant, the time could be reduced substantially, and we could have people here who were providing services that we were unable to find here in Manitoba. * (15:10 ) As I have state d, the first agre ement was for 200 fam ilies a year. We now currently have increased that to 500 families a year and are negotiating with the fe deral government to increase that number still more. I am hopeful that we will have an announcement shortly.

Of those 500 families, I must say that we have also in con junction with the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines put in a business immigr ation category, where the Department of Industry, Trade and Mines looks at an application for a family or an individual to come to Manitoba to not only invest but to stay here and bring their entrepreneurial skills to the province of Manitoba. They are opening jobs and creating jobs in that regard . We are well on our way to achieving that 50 goal of immig rants for the business category for this year. Our goal, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, in immigration is to have the same number of immigr ants every year into Manitoba through the independent class, the Provincial Nominee Program and refugees that is our percentage of the population of Canada. Currently, that would be approximately 3.8 percent. Now, we are not there yet, but our numbers have stea dily increased. Last year, in 2000, we had over 4500 people come into Manitoba as immig rants. That is a 24% increase over the numbers who came in 19 99. We are very happy and pleased that that has been successful.

We continue to work and will continue to work with all the stakeho lders, with our department, with the fe deral government, with various immigration groups, with people who are interested in credentials and with the business community to ensure that our

November 19 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 9 made-in-Manitoba immigration solution is successful. As I stated, this is only one small part of our labour shortage strategy, but it is a critical part. Finally, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to speak about the Manitoba Ethnocultural Advisory and Advocacy Council that we have been discussing in this House for a fairly lengthy period of time.

I am pleased to say that we are very close to announcing the 21 -person council that will provide advice and advocacy to government on all issues relating to the ethnocultural community here in the province of Manitoba. This was an election commitment that we made in 19 95 and that we reiterated in 19 99. We recognize the importance of this council to provide advice and advocacy on behalf of the ethnocultural community in this province.

I might state that the former government chose not to see the importance of a process whereby they could get advice and particularly advocacy on issues of importance to the ethnocultural community . They, in ef fect, tore apart the former Manitoba Intercultural Council. The Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) might remember that, in I believe it was 19 92 or 19 93, myself when I was the Opposition critic for Multiculturalism, spoke in the House about Bill 5, I believe the number was, for eight hours over a period of several days.

I am sure that the Member for Lakeside was paying attention to every single word I said in the House at that time. An Honourable Member: Remind me what Bill S was. Ms. Barrett: Bill 5 was the piece of legislation that in effect killed Manitoba Intercultural Council. Our campaign pledge in the last two elections was to reinvi gorate the multicultural, ethnocultural community through the institution of this new coun cil. I am pleased to say that very shortly that council will be announ ced. The composition will be announc ed. I think everyone will agree that it is a wonderful coun cil.

It is a council made up of 16 individuals selected through ballot by the ethnocultural community, and five individuals selected by government. I am looking very much forward to meeting with this council and hearing their advice and their advocacy on issues of importance to the community that they represent. Mr. Deputy Speaker, with those fe w words, I commend the Speech from the Throne to the House and would like very much to see unanimous support for it. Thank you. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): It gives me pleasure to rise today to put a fe w words on record regarding the Throne Speech that we have seen.

I believe it is the third one of this administration, yet it is in my view a repetition of the first two. I think it is unfortunate that this Government has identified itself as a government without vision, a government without a plan, and a government without consistent direction. I think that will become the model that people will identify this new NDP government with. I think it is unfortunate for the people of Manitoba that they have not been able to get this Government to come forward with a vis ionary approach to change, to keep pace with all other levels of government in this country .

I think it is also unfortunate that this Premier (Mr. Doer) ha5 demonstrated a weakness that we have not seen for a long time in the Premier's office in this provinc e. That weakness is simply to direct the affairs of his Cabinet in such a way that people will have consistent faith in his ability to lead properly . I want to speak a bit about that during my comments.

I want to also address the issue of the lack of initiative that should have been identified in this Budget and in this Throne Speech by the Premier when he directed his Cabinet to bring forward suggesti ons and ideas for a Throne Speech, as is normally the practice. There is virtually no mention about agriculture and the economic contribution that the agricultural community makes to the province of Manitoba. I want to address that one. The third one I want to address is the perception that this Government has left with the general public about its trustworthiness.

15 0 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 Bef ore I do that, I would like to personally welcome the new pages to this forum. I believe it will be a tremendous learning experience for them.

I believe it will present an opportunity for them to not only learn what Parliament and parliamen tary procedure is all about, but it will demonstrate to them the need for a democratic debate on policies, on issues, on legisla tion and regulation development that is constantly the respo nsibil ity of the Government and this Chamber and the Oppositiion's respons ibility to guard closely that the interests of the general public are protected and that it is done with integrity and ensure that the best interests of the general public and the citizens of Manitoba are in fact maintained.

I think that opportunity, that learning curve, our young people serving as pages here, will not leave them and will be a great benefit to them in their future endeavours . I also want to welcome the new interns. These are young people that are attending university that have applied for the Internship Program in this province.

Again, I believe it will serve them well to in future enhance their ability to make sure that their talents are broadened by th1� experience that they are going to have serving in the various caucuses that they are serving and will serve over the next I 0 months or so. * (15: 20) I believe, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that we should also welcome you back and hope that your term, this term, will be as satisfying to you as it will be to us and that hopefully we can work together to enhance the opportunities of Manitoba and Manitobans , that we can make their life better in the future.

I also want to say to the Speaker of this House that I believe he has done a good job of directing the affairs of this Chamber during the last couple of years that I have known him. I know that he does that with integrity . We certainly welcome him bac:k as Speaker of this House. I believe we have today an opportunity. think we have an opportunity to demonstrate to Manitobans the sincerity which they would like us to address the issues in this House with. I think we have an opportunity to demonst rate to all Manitobans that we do that with integrity and that we do that in response to their request.

I believe that we have an opportunity and a respons ibility to demo nstrate to all people of Manitoba that the opportunities they have must be provided and that the involvement that government has must be provided to them in an equitable base and from an equitable standpoint, whether it is the educa tion system, whether it is our health care system, whether it is our social services system or indeed the agricultural community or the industrial community or the business community at large, because if we have not got and if we do not encou rage and maintain the ability to derive commerce and encourage commerce in this province, our incomes and our revenu es, the tax revenues that this Government so depends on, will decrea se.

I think we have, from that standpoint, a responsibil ity to Manitoba. I want to spend a little bit of time talking about the impact. I think we so often forget how much of an economic impact the agricultural community has to this province. Did you know that roughly about 35 percent of our total product for export is derived from primary renewable resources, mainly the agricultural sector? Did you know that one out of every seven jobs in this province is agricul tural based? Think about that. One out of every seven jobs is agricultural based and related.

The agri cultural industries that depend on the primary source for processing and deriving a finished product for export and/or for domestic consumption is the basis of 35 percent of our total revenues in this province of Manitoba. Have you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, looked at the Budget? Have you looked at the Budget that your Premier (Mr. Doer) presented or your Mini ster of Finance (Mr. Sel inger) presented in this House, the last Budget? Tell me how much revenue, what percentage of your Budget is dedica ted to agri culture . Can you tell me that, Mr. Deputy Speaker? Do you know? It is less than 2 percent.

Less than 2 percent of the total revenues generated by 35 percent of the economy is directed back into that industry . Is that equity? Is it equity? I want to indicate to you-[inter jec tion] Well, I hear the Minis ter of Industry (Ms.

November 19 , 2001 LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 151 Mihychuk) commenting from her chair, and I do not blame her for commenting because this must be a bit of a sensitive issue to her as well as her coll eague in the Minis ter of Agriculture' s (Ms. Wowchuk) chair. I would indeed believe that the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) might, as well, want to object to their Premier when their financ ial statement is drafted. I want to say this to you.

This is a document that came into my possession on the 29th of October, which was just a fe w days ago, a fe w short days ago, and this is a reflection of what the U.S. government is doing for agriculture . They are going to designate, they have passed a bill in the House in their House of Commons and in their Sen ate that will provide $17 0 billion over the next 10 years to agricultural support, $17 0 billion. Do you know how much that would be if we did a simi lar type of budget in this country? [interjection} I know the minister now says: Did you hear about the WTO? Yes, I did.

Did I see our Minister of Agricu lture travelling to take

part in the discussions to ensure that the agenda would be adopted, that agriculture could actually be discussed at the WTO? No, she hid. She hid. Did our Premier (Mr. Doer), as the Premier of Saskatchewan did, make the trip to go to the summit that dealt with whether the budget or the agriculture issue would in fact be- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The honourable Minister of Industry Trade and Mines, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon. MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): On a point of order, the member across the way is mis leading the public in his comments .

Manitoba took a leadership role in being present at the WTO. In fact, Manitoba was the first to sign up to def end the rights and future income of agricultural producers in the Prairies. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Disputes over the facts are not points of order. *** Mr. Jack Penner: Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It does not surprise me that the honourable Minister of Industry and Trade is somewhat sensitive in this area, because I would be sensitive, too, if I was her.

I would be sensitive, too, that my Premier had totally ignored the discussion on one of the most fundamental and most important issues at the Qatar meeting that has just concluded. I would be sensitive too if I was the Minis ter of Industry and Trade that her involvement or her comment had not even been solici ted on this very important matte r. Need I say to you that if we in this province paid as much attention to agriculture as most other nations and countries and states in the world do, we would have a diffe rent economy in this province than we have today?

Let me say this to you, that only a few short years ago, in 19 99, there was a severe flooding problem in western Manitoba. What did the then-government do under the leadership of our former Premier, Gary Filmon? What did they do? They said: We will not leave you hanging out to drown . We will support you. They paid those farmers $50 an acre for every acre that was not seeded. I know the minister here will say, well, we put a crop insurance system in place that will now take care of that. That is not true. That crop insurance system was always there for many, many years.

Any one of us that farm had the opportunity to buy non-seeded-acres crop insurance. Yet we realized that farmers had not seen the kind of catastrophe that happened in western Manitoba bef ore. Theref ore we pitched in and we helped and we paid farmers $50 an acre . What have we done for southeast Manitoba under the watch of the NDP government, under Gary Doer's watch? What have we done? All we have said so far is they can buy crop insurance if they choose. If they do not, they are on their own. * (15: 30) Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

When referring to a member of the Assembly, the members are encouraged to refer to their position as MLAs or as minis ter of a particular department.

15 2 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 Mr. Jack Penner: Well, thank you very much for reminding me. I will then ref er to the Premier, Mr. Gary Doer, who, under his watch- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Honourable Member for Emerson, you can addre:ss him as the First Minister or as Premier. Mr. Jack Penner: Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I will then address him as the Premier of the province, and his name, I believe, is registered in all our documents as Mr. Gary Doer. Is that correct? I will say to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that he has failed the people of Manitoba.

I say to you that he has failed in negotia tions. One of the first matters that he attended to when he was elected was taking a trip to Washington. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The convention in the House: is to refer to the position being held, but not with specific names. Thank you. Mr. Jack Penner: Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am sorry to hear that the Deputy Speaker is so sensitive to this. I will then refer to Mr.

Doer as the Premier of the Province and ensure that I will n�cognize him as the Premier and call him the Premier, because he is after all the Premier and has taken on that responsibility. I will say this to you, that he took a trip to Washingt on. Did he mention agriculture once when he was on his way to Washington? No.

He came back and he left the: people of Manitoba with the impression that he had come to an agre ement that Devils Lakt! water would not run into the Red River before he would put his signature, that is the impression, bef ore he would put his sig nature on a document, and that he would get Minnesota's, that he would get North Dakota's and South Dakota's and indeed the fe deral government of the United States, to agree to this bef ore and they would have his signa ture bef ore this would happen. Well, events in North Dakota have come to the point where the enginet!ring is being done on a Devils Lake outlet.

I would venture to say to you that, before the new te:rm of office in North Dakota is up, they will have an outlet based on studies that they have done. So I say to you that I do not think that our Premier (Mr. Doer) was quite forthright with the people of Manitoba, as our Minis ter of Education (Mr. Caldwell) has not been forthright with the people of Manitoba, and it reflects on the integrity of this New Democratic government, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

It surprises me no end that the members opposite, especially those sitting in the back bench, will sit there quietly and condone the actions of their Premier and their Minister of Education and if they will not stand and be counted when it comes to credibility, because that is what this is all about, the integrity of people that serve here, the integrity of the Prem ier and the integrity of all his minis ters. That is what is being called into question here.

It is a dark day in Manitoba when min isters can stand in their place and cast the shadow of doubt on their position and positions that they have held and responses that they have brought to this House. I think that that needs to be recognized, and that is fast becoming a trade mark of this Government. I need only reflect on the first fe w days that this New Democratic government was elected. I need only reflect on that. You remember that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You remember that the Premier came along and the Mini ster of Fin ance (Mr.

Sel inger) came along and said there was a $400-million deficit and that they had asked for a complete audit of the books of this Province. When the truth became known, it became apparent that it was not an audit. It was a review by a financ ial firm of the operations of the previous government till that time. What was the result of that review? The review indicated clearly that the Premier (Mr. Doer) had not been correct, that the Minis ter of Finance had not been correct in telling the people that there was a total audit. That was mist ake No.

I, and I believe it was a mi stake on their part, but the people are telling us now, they are asking me the question, can we trust them? Then the second one was, was there a $400- million deficit? As a matter of fact, the Minister of Finance and the Premier ref erred to it just a

November 19, 2001 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 3 fe w short weeks ago . Why would they leave the impression that that was the case when it was not. All the people of Manitoba want is a government that has integrity, and they are not getting it today . The Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell), when he stood in his place today, clea rly gave us that indication as to why the people of Manitoba will doubt the integrity of this Government. It is a sad, dark day for Manitoba. This is what leads the people to question the integrity of politic ians in general because it cast a shadow of doubt on you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, on myself and everybody that serves in this place. Why would we want to subject ourselves to that kind of questiona ble credibil ity? Why? Is it not sad when your Premier (Mr. Doer) says to the people of Manitoba there is a $400-million deficit when it is not in fact so? Is that not sad? Is it not sad when your Minister of Fin ance (Mr. Sel inger) still tells people that there was a $400-million deficit when it was not so? Why do we want to do that? Why would we not be straig htforward with our people?

Why would we not want to be as you have often ref erred to, the book says, the good book says, be honest. Why would we not want to do that? Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I said before, the agricultural community is a very large contributor to the economic base of this province, and yet when I look at the Throne Speech and how many lines were accredited to agriculture or the supporting industry, it saddens me. It saddens me when mosquitoes get more play, more print in a Throne Speech from this Government. When they get more print than agriculture does, that saddens me.

I think it saddens everybody in this province when you do not give the recognition due to an industry that is very important to this province. I also want to reflect a little bit on the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin), when just about a short year ago I think he stood proudly and anno unced a mil lion-dollar donation or support to an organization called the Eco Network, a million dollars I believe he said he would desig nate to them. Right? The interesting thing is that the member organiza tions of the Eco-Network are members such as Hog Watch and a number of other very questi onable organ izations.

Really, what their intent is, is to draw to the attention of the general public questiona ble state ments that would cast a shadow of doubt on the ability of an industry to survive and grow and prosper and provide jobs in this province. *( 15 :40) I belie ve the Eco-Network through its process designa ted some $50,000 to Hog Watch to oppose the development of the hog industry in this province.

When one listened to the program on CBC just a short week ago, on Sunday evening, Counterspin I think was the name of the program, one can only reflect on what was being said by members of Hog Watch in their opposition or the vice-presid ent of the National Farmers Union in their opposition. I gave a lot of credit to one of the people at the forum when he said to the person representing Hog Watch on the panel-sir, he said, you have your inf ormation all wrong . He said what you just put on record is not correct.

I believe the person representing Hog Watch is a very close friend of the NDP government and the NDP party, a very close friend. I believe he is a second vice-president of the Farmers Union. He was told definitely he had his facts all wrong by a participant at that forum. Now, does that reflect on what we have seen this last week in this House, questiona ble inf ormation being brought to cast doubt and shadow on an industry that has done nothing but ensure the protection of the environment, the agri cultural industry?

We have heard so many things that have cast doubt about the ability of farmers to run their farms in a responsible manner. I believe, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is time we gave credit to the farm community and their eff orts to maintain our water quality, our land quality, our air quality. Yet every chance we get we fund those organizations that would cast doubt and cast shadows on the farm community. Why would governments support financially those kinds of organiza tions? Why would the minister give any money to organiza tions that

15 4 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 put questionable inf ormation on the record and call into question the actual operations of our farms when those very fimns-and I want to speak a bit about what has happened to those farms. All of us remember, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what great impor tance the now-Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) had placed prior to her being elected in this House on the family farm. Do you remember that, remember the many words she said about protecting the family farm? Do you remember the NDP party's position at their annual meetings on protecting the family farm?

Let me put some Statistics Canada figures on the record . Statistics Canada says the hemorrhaging of workers out of the agricultural sector escalated last year with 52 000 Canadians reclassifying themselves, getting jobs, in other words, elsewhere than in the farm community, 52 000 jobs last year. As many as 33 000 of those were on the Prairies, 33 000. Federal officials caution it does not mean that 52 000 abandoned their farms, but iit is a very great sign of great weakness in western Canada. What does that mean in Manitoba? M;mitoba last year lost 3000 farm labour pool workers in this province.

Do you know that day in and day out when I travel this province I hear young farmers say: We are throwing in the towel; we are quitting farming. There is no future in Manitoba in farming. That is what young farmers tell me. I was at a meeting in Franklin municipality less than two weeks ago. The Minister of Agriculture toured Franklin municipality and saw the huge devastation that had taken place this year. Did she comment at all? She said: I will get back to you. To this day she has not got back to them. She has not e:ven responded since last July.

I think that is deplorable that a Mini ster of Agriculture will absolute ly not care about her industry. There were three farmers at the meeting, young farmers. These are the cream of the crop. They are well-educated, university educated farmers that said our land is for sale. They said that most of the young farmers in Franklin had their land up for sale this year or for rent because they could not make a living based on the policies that this NDP government had put in place. Remember when the Minis ter of Agriculture came back from Ottawa and lauded her new CFIP program?

It was going to be the program that would save all of the farmers in Manitoba, CFIP, the Canadian Farm Income Protection plan. Do you know what they are doing? They know now that CFIP does not work. The mini ster knows it. I am sure the mini ster has related that to Cabinet, that CFIP cannot work. We all knew it when she came back with the program. Remember what I said in Question Period about CFIP? CFIP cannot work for one simple reason, because it is designed to get farmers off the land, to draw down their income because of the 30% drop in income that you have to have in order to qualify for anyt hing.

If you have three years of 30% drop, you are at zero. If you have three years at 29 percent, you do not qualify, and you are at just about zero income, gross income. The minister is telling us how great the farm community is doing under her new program . There are a number of other areas that the minis ter should have paid attention to but has not. She has put in place, instead, doubt through the estab lishment of the review that Mr. Tyrchniewicz and his committee did. Mr. Tyrchn iewicz did not take very long to come ba�k with a report on the livestock industry, made 40-some-odd recommenda tions.

Has the minister acted on many of them? The minis ter has acted on 3 of them, largely those 3 areas that the previous government had already developed policy on. What has happened to the rest of them? Nothing has happened. It cast a shadow of doubt on the livestock industry and how they were supposed to proceed. * (15 :50) Yesterday, I got a phone call, Mr. Deputy Speaker, from a farmer in the Woodridge area. He said, I guess, the new inspectors that the Government has put in place to inspect hog lagoons and those kind of fac ilities have not got much to do. I said: Why would that be?

He said, well, they came down to my farm. He said I have 29 head of cat tle. He said they came down to my farm, and he said I am composting my manure . Remember? Remember composting is the way to go? Right? He said I am composting

November 19 , 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 155 my manure . He said the inspector came into my yard, and he said you have two days to get rid of that pile of manure . So he said I hired a tractor and a loader and a spreader, and he said I put it out on my forage field. He said I was very lucky that we did not have a pile of snow on the field because next spring it would have all run into the river. He said it might still, but he said I was forced to by the new rules that we do not know about that these new inspectors operate under .

You see we hired a bunch of people without direction to satisfy the political pundits that now there is a bunch of inspectors out there . Who are they going after? The small family farm. Who are we putting impedim ents in place for? The small family farm. Every rule and every regulation that you add make it more difficult for that small family farm to exist. What are we doing about it? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

This Government, all they do is sit here and devise schemes on how to make it more difficult for the agriculture producer in Manitoba that actually contributes up to 35 percent of the total economic income to this province in one form or another. Why would we want to make it that difficult for them? Why would we want to cast the uncertainty on the livestock industry by asking a group to go and study and make recommendations to government and then take two years bef ore we do anything? Well, they have not done any thing yet, and it is better than two years . What kind of government have we got? I say to you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is important to recognize inaction because inaction is far more dangerous than taking action that is not always in complia nce with every body's wishes. That is what the problem is with this Government. They talk a blue mile. They talked. They ridiculed the previous government for wanting to put in a plan which would indica te that the revenues over the next four years would have increased a billion dollars over the next four years . Every year a billion dollars by the end of four years would be new revenues generate d. Well, this Minister of Finance (Mr.

Selin ger) knows that it did not take four years to generate a billion dollars of new revenue . It only took two years. Now next year, he is again assuming that there will be additional billion dollar re venues. He knows that his incomes are on a sharp downslide. He knows that. How is he going to make up the revenue? How? I guarante e you increased taxes, increased fe es, increased sales of Crown lands, which we see on a daily basis now to generate revenue, to make up the shortfall that they are already seeing because of the downturn in the economy.

The downturn will become sharper as we go along because this Government refuses to take action. This Government has cast a shadow of doubt amongst the people of Manitoba about what they say and how they do things. I think, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is important for the people of Manitoba to realize that this Government cannot be trusted, that you cannot trust them because what they do and what they say are two very different things. What they say can very, very often be demons trated to be not fac tual, and I think that is sad.

I have yet to see a Speech from the Throne that lacks more substance than this last Speech from the Throne. I have yet to see a speech during the 13 years I have been here that has been more repetitious than what we saw this last Throne Speech, and I have yet to see a Throne Speech that is emptier of substance than what we saw here . So, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would encou rage all members of this Legisla ture to sharply take a look, to really take a sharp look at the Throne Speech and vote reality, vote reality, and that is vote against the adoption of this Throne Speech, vote against the mandate of this Government to continue the deception that we have seen in this House continually by the Premier (Mr. Doer), by the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Selin ger) and now the Minis ter of Education (Mr. Caldwell), and it will continue. I think it is a sad day for Manitoba. It is a dark day for Manitoba. Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I am happy to join in this Throne Speech debate, listened care fully to the Member for Emerson, and I want to, lik e many have, start off by giving my thanks to a number of people. First of all, I want to thank the residents in Radisson who continue to impress me in many ways. One of the things that was done recently I spoke of today in my member's statement and

15 6 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 that was orga nizing a memorial for September 11 . This was a very heartfelt and spontaneous event that occurred, because some of the residents were faced with questions and confusion by child ren in the neighbour hood.

This is a neighbourhood that has a lot of children, and the Tenants' Associa tion at the Tri plex, a housing complex, on Plessis Road invited the local firefig hter chief , the local police of fice and the paramedics EMS responders to a ceremony to try to not only put the events of September II into some kind of context or perspective for not only kids in the neighbourhood but themselves, but as I said earlier also to make a statement against racism in our own home neighbourhood and to come together to mourn as a community.

It was I think one of the most meanin gful events in my constituency that I have ever attended, and I know the emergency staff really appreciated that they were r'ecognized in view of what happened on September II for the work that they do in our home community . They said that to me, and they also said that they have seen a difference in the way that police officers and firefighters are treated ever since September 11 .

With all the aftermath with the anthrax scares and what we are continuing to deal with, I think if there are some small things that are positive that come out of such a tragedy it is that recognition of the role that those people play in our community and the risks that they take on our behalf.

I also want to recognize Linda Regey who has been the president of the Tri-plex Tenants' Associa tion for spearheading that memorial and bringing together a number of members of the community, a choir from the United Church and the pipe band and the minis ter, Carol Fletcher from the United Church and giving people a chance to do something in our community that will be a lasting monument. So I was happy to contribute to that. I also want to say thanks to the staff in the Chamber for the work that they do here .

I want to recognize Rache l, who has already shown herself to be an exemplary page by antici pating our need for water. I think that the Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar) and I are going to float away if this keeps up, but we appreciate the special attention that we get from the pages. It makes you fe el a little bit spoiled when you work in an atmosphere like this where people bring you water. I also want to recognize our interns, who already this year have shown themselves to be very bright and capable, good writers, quick study.

They also work closely with those of us in caucus and we really appreciate the work that they do. Simil arly, the caucus staff, some of them have been here going on 12 years or more, as I have, and we have gotten to know each other quite well and become good friends. I appreciate the staff very much that work in our caucus . I also want to thank the members opposite. I en joy sitting here and listening to the members opposite, particularly in Question Period. It really strikes me that all we have done sometimes is switch roles.

When you hear them sitting across in Question Period saying things like, oh, you always stoop so low whenever you do not have an answer, you just resort to personal attacks or calling the Government arrogant or saying we have no vision or no plan, it all sounds very familiar, does it not? * (16 :00) It concerns me that this Chamber sometimes seems like it is just a role play and is not very meaningful to the members of the public. Of course, then there is the whole issue of decorum .

There are not many jobs or positions you can hold where the kind of yelling and name calling and carry ing on that goes on this Chamber is allowed or tolerated. People would not contempla te conducting themselves that way in other places of business. So I would encourage the members opposite to think about that and to try to not just play gotcha politics and talk about policy and questions about policy even in Question Period. That happens occasionally, but more often than not it is about calling somebody a liar or trying to say that you said this, not that. I do not think that the general public appreciate that.

Every time that we do that we make this place less meaningful. I think people tune out. I think for the most part the general public thinks that this Government is doing a good job.

November 19 , 2001 LEGISLA TIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 7 I think for the last two years they would often say that they know that members of this Government work very hard, that members of this Government are following the agenda that they laid out in the election. I think that when you look at some of the evidence of that, I think what one of the main issues that we got elected on was health care. I have with me five and a half pages of things in the last two years that the Minister of Health and his department have accomplished. It is no small fe at. I am going to get into some of those accomplishments.

I first of all want to talk about some of the kinds of things that I have been involved with. Just today, it really is an opportunity, as a member of the Government, to start getting a little bit better understanding and detai led understan ding of the costs in many of the government departments, the activities and the challenges that face many government departments. We look at what is happening in health care and really try to understand the pressure that is on our health care system. Our Government did get elected based on a very strong concern about maintaining our public health care.

The general public know that we believe very strongly in our medi care system and maintaining a public and accessible and universal health care syst em. But we have to look at what is happening in Canadian society and in our communities with the increase in an aging population, with huge increases in drug costs and costs for medication. Simila rly, the increase in technology and the reliance on very expensive testing and diagnostic testing and even treatments that rely on very expensive technology.

Then we know that in professions like health care that the costs to remune rate health care professionals are also going to go up. But all of this pressure on health care is happening at a time when we have an increas ingly unhealthy population. We have a 40% or 50% incidence of obesity in children. We have a very sharp increase in heart disease and other illn esses related to stress. We have, as I said earlier, an aging population. In some ways people are living longer, but those last years often are accompanied with a large range of health care concerns.

All of these things converging at one time are creating what I think is going to come to an incredible amount of pressure on our health care system. I think people recognize it, but what I would like to see is more of a public debate about that.

I think that we have to engage the public in really understanding what is required of our health care system , what is reasona ble to expect, and to understand how much it costs for things, to understand how much it costs when you go to the doctor, to understand how much it costs to provide the kind of services that people expect with all the kinds of tests that we are using. We also, I think, then have to find a way not just in talking about health care in terms of organizing the system and reorganizing the system, but get back down to how are we going to ensure that people are more healthy .

That gets us into talking about health in terms of nutrition and fitness and lifestyle and workplace conditions and environmental conditions and the kind of ways that we organize our city, so that you cannot possibly even walk to and from your workplace. I would hope that we could engage the public in those kind of discussions. One of the events that the Government hosted a fe w weeks ago was a physical activity summit, which included people from across the province, all regions of the province, to talk about these kinds of issues.

It focused more on the whole area of preventative health in terms of getting people to live a more active lifes tyle.

I was really encouraged by the kind of discussion that took place and the planning that took place, and I looked forward to getting that report from the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship and hoping that will help us to map out the kind of direction that we need in Manitoba so that we can truly start talking about health care in terms of improving people's quality of life and their status of health and not the medical treatment that, as I said ea rlier, is often the focus and is so very costly.

When we look at health care and we look at some of the things that this Government has accomplished in only two years, that we have doubled the number of nurses in training, that we have reversed the reduction by the former government in the medical coll ege so we are training 15 more doctors a year, so we can

158 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 19 , 2001 reins tate the two-year diploma program for nurses. Those are the kind of things that are going to be a legacy for this Government, that will start to reap benefits in the next couple of years when those nurses aJre graduating, and we can start to do some of the kind of things that we also want to accomp lish.

We are expanding the program for nurses in schools and those kind of things, allowing more of other technicians to be trained like training programs for ultrasound technicians and a new diploma program for lab and image technicians, spe:cial training for rural X-ray technologists, all these kinds of initiatives that are focused on the staffing and the development of our exper tise and body of trained people to be on the front line of our health care system in Manitoba. One of the other meetings that we had today was with the Manitoba Child Care Coalition. Again, this is an area where

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-5
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 5.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5f2fb9d8a16f7409d780bccfec79a3fc79e5e8a8

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