Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 9 (26th Legislature, 3rd Session)

26-3-9

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Name ALEXANDER, Keith BAIZLEY, Obie BJORNSON, Oscar .F. CAMPBELL, D. L. CARROLL, Hon. J.B. CHRISTIANSON, John Aaron CORBETT, A. H. COWAN, James, Q. C. DESJARDINS, Laurent . DOW, E. I. EVANS, Hon. Gurney FORBES, Mrs. Thelma FROESE, J. M. GRAY, Morris A. GROVES, Fred GUTTORMSON, Elman HAMILTON, William Homer HARRIS, Lemuel HARRISON, Hon.Abram W. HAWRYLUK, J. M. HILLHOUSE, T.P.,Q .C. HRYHORCZUK, M.N., Q.C. HUTTON, Hon. George INGEBRIGTSON, J. E. JEANNOTTE, J. E. JOHNSON, Hon . George . JOHNSON, Geo. Wm . . KLYM, Fred T. LISSAMAN, :R. 0. LYON,H on. �rling R., Q.C. MARTIN, w·. G. ·McKELLAR, M. E. McLEAN,H on.

Stewart E.,Q .C. · MOLGAT, Gildas MORRISON, Mrs . Carolyne ORIJKOW, David PAULLEY, Russell PETERS, S; PREFONTAINE, Edmond REID, A. J. ROBERTS, Stan ROBLIN, Hon. Duff SCARTH, W .B. , Q.C . SCHREYER, E. R. · SEABORN, Richard SHEWMAN, Harry P. SHOEMAKER, Nelson SMELLIE, Robert Gordon STANES, D. M. STRICKLAND, B. P. TANCHAK, John P. THOMPSON, Hon. John, Q.C. WAGNER, Peter WATT, J. D. WEIR, Waiter WITNEY, Hon. Charles H. WRIGHT, Arthur E. Electoral Division Roblin Os borne Lac du Bonnet Lake side The Pas Portage la Prairie Swan River Winnipeg Centre St.

Boniface Turtle Mountain Fort Rouge Cypress Rhine l and Inkater St. Vital St. George Duff erin Logan Rock Lake Burrows Selkirk. Ethel bert Plains Rockwood-Iberville Churchill Rupertsland Gimll Assiniboia Springfield . Brandon Fort Garry St. Matthews Souris-Lans downe Dauphin Ste. Rose Pembina St. John's Radisson Elmwood Carillon Kildonan La Verendrye Wolseley River Heights Brokenhead Wellington Morris Gladstone Birtle -R ussell St.

James Ham iota Emerson Virden Fisher Arthur Minnedosa Flin Flon Seven Oaks Address Roblin, Man . 185 Maplewood Ave., Winnipeg 13 Lac du Bonnet, Man. 326 Kelvin Blvd ., Winnipeg 29 Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 86-9th St . , N. W. , Ptge. la Prairie, Man . Swan River, Man . 512 Avenue Bldg ., Winnipeg 2 138 Dollard Blvd ., St. Boniface 6, Man • Boissevain, Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Rathwell , Man . Winkler, Man . 141 Cathedral Ave ., Winnipeg 4 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital , Winnipeg 8 Lundar, Man.

Sperllng, Man . 1109 Alexande r Av e., Winnipeg 3 Holmfield, Man. 84 Furby St ., Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg ., Selkirk, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Legislative Bld g., Winnipeg 1 Churchill, Man . Meadow Portage, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 212 Oakdean Blv d., St .James, Wpg. 12 ·Beausejour, Man • 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man . Legisl ative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 . 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 Nesbitt, Man . Legisla tive Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. Manitou, Man. 179 Montrose St., Winnipeg 9 435 Yale Ave.W., Transcona 25, Man . 225 Melrose Ave., Winnipeg 15 St.

Pierre, Man. 561 Trent Ave ., E.K il d., Winnipeg 15 Niverville , Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 407 Queenston St., Winnipeg 9 Beausejour, M� . 594'-.Aj:iington St. , Wfunipeg l.i> ·Morris . Man. · Neepawa, Man. - R�s�ell �. Man�_ 381 Guildford St. , St. James, Wpg. 12 iiamiota , Man . Ridgeville, Man. Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Fisher Branch, Man . Reston, Man . Minnedosa, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 4 Lord Glenn Apts .1 944 Main St ., Wpg.1 7 . /

LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o' clock, Thursday, February 23 , 1961 Opening Prayer by Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petition s. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committee s. Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bills. MR . W .B. SCARTH Q.C . (River Heights) introduced Blll No . 28 ,

an Act to amend The Public Schools Act (1) . MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, if the honourable members would pardon me on this occasion it's my sad duty, Sir, to announce to the House that a former member of this Legislature, Clifford Barclay, died at Deer Lodge Hospital, as I understand it , having passed the four-score year mark, and on occasi ons of this kind we pause in our occupation to pay respect to the memory of one who has been a public servant and has served his fellow man. Mr.

Barclay was elected first in 1922, a date which is one in my memory because it's the day that my father entered this Legis lature. He first entered the Legislature in 1922 and, as I understand it, the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition entered the Legi slature at the same time. He was a member of the farmer's body at that time , representing the Constituency of Springfie ld.

He was a good friend of my father's and it has been told to me that they were somewhat of the same cast of mind, both serious students of public affairs and both devoted to the public welfare, and it is an occ asion which has a link for me personally when I hear that Mr . Barclay has passed. It is a remarkable fact how a man' s reputation comes to be formed in the community in which he lived; and it has become evident, even in the short time that I have known that Mr . Barclay has died, that he was admired, respected and liked, and that his personal qualities were indeed of a high order.

He had contributed quietly but effectively to the conduct of public business in the province and those qualities are admired on all sides of the House. As judged by the fact that he died in Deer Lodge Hospital , he was a veteran of the First World War, having served his country in that capacity as well as having served his province in the way indicated.

And so , Sir, now in the words of the resolution, the words themselves being time honoured but in my impre ssion, Sir, renewed in the minds of all the members here on each occasion that they are read again, I would like to move a resolution, seconded by the Honour able the Member for Brokenhead, that this House convey to the family of the late Clifford Barclay, who served as a member of the Legislative Ass embly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a life of active community and public service ; and that Mr.

Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr . Speaker, despite the tremendous difference in age, I did have the pleasure of knowing Mr . Bar clay perso nally, although for only a rela tively short time . I knew of him, however, for several years. As was already mentioned, he was elected to this Assembly in 1922 as a farmer-labour representative , and then he became part of the progressi ve movement which swept this province in the early 1920 's. It is part of the local legend of my area that Mr.

Barclay was considered for the leadership of that move ment at that time , and it seems that he was defeated by only a handful of votes. It was fate , then, that prevented him from becoming Premier of this province . He was defeated once during his career in public service but he was re-elected in 1932 and, at the same time , he was serving as reeve in the Rural Municipality of Brokenhead during the depression years of the 1930's. My personal acquaintance with Mr .

Barclay was limited, as I said, to the last four years; but I remember him well at that time attending the public meetings which I had been holding in his locale. Although then an old man and becoming physically weak, he attended meetings regularly and I recall vividly his nods of approval; but I must confess, more often I recall the thunderous rappings of his cane on the floor as he gave vent to his disapproval of what I was February 23rd, 1961. Page 169

(Mr. Schreyer, cont1d,) ••••• saying. Then too, in the local general store at Tyndall I would meet him occasionally, and it took only a few minutes, perhaps seconds, for us to launch into free discussion. His cane was always there , on the ready to punctuate the error of my ways. He was a gentleman of the old school; a man who learned his politics , as he told me personally, while sitting at the knees of William Gladstone and later from Kerr Hardy.

He was an admirer, I must say, of the Honourable Member for Lakeside; and I remember vividly again the last time we met, when he confided to me that after he had heard the maiden speech of the Honour able Member from Lake side he said, and I quote , "I'm sure that that man will be here for a long time"; and I suppose he was right. Mr. Barclay was a man who gave of the best years of his life to the public service , and I humbly join with the House Leader in the expression of condolence by seconding this motion. MR . D.L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Mr .

Speaker, as the Honourable the Leader of the House has mentioned, the late Mr . Barclay entered this House in 1922 , a pretty good year so far as public life was concerned in Manitoba because that was the year when the Honourable Leader of the House supplied his father to this Chamber as well; and the young fellow that occupied the seat that is now occupied by the Honourable Member for Rupertsland was a great friend of both of us , and we certainly appreciate the contribution that both of them made. As the Honourable Leader of the House has mentioned, his father and Mr.

Barclay became quite close friends although they sat on opposite sides of the House. As a matter of fact, Mr. Barclay was a very logical and serious-minded gentleman. When we were elected, a group with very few of us having previous political experience , he made a special visit to the Chamber here to look the situation over , and knowing that he was going to be sitting on the right of Mr . Speaker, he assessed the matter quite carefully and asked if he chould have the seat that is now occupied by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet.

He picked that one out as a seat of very special interest, and I might mention that my seat had not been assigned at that time so he wasn't making that particular effort to get as far as possible away from me. I didn't get the choice of my seat, I just took the one that was given to me . Mr . Barclay was a graduate civil engineer, graduating in the old country before he came here . He came to Manitoba, representing an engineering firm , to supervise the installation of the mechanical equipment in what is now the Transcona shops.

My memory doesn't tell me for sure whether that was the Canadian Northern in those days or the Grand Trunk. I presume it was the latter - the Grand Trunk. He was supervisor of the installation of the mechanical equipment out there and served in a similar capacity until he went overseas in the early days of World War 1. When he came back times had changed, and he felt that he didn't want to go back into that line of business and he took up farming out in the district where the Honourable Member for Brokenhead was, later on, born, Mr .

Barclay farmed northeast of Ladywood for some years , and it was during his years of farming there that he showed his great interest in public affairs and became elected to this House . He didn't come back in 1927 but he accom plished that feat that is fairly rare in this Chamber, of being once defeated and coming back on a subsequent occasion, because he returned in 1932 . The Town of Transcona was in Springfield constituency in those days and so Mr . Barclay had the advantage of knowing a great many people from that area from the time that he had worked there .

He was a serious student of public affairs and I'm sure that he made a great contribution here . As the Honourable Member for Brokenhead has mentioned, he made a fine contribution in municipal and commun ity work as well . I am sure that the sympathy of the House goes out to Mrs . Barclay, who survives, and to quite a large family, several of whom are in this area, and we do wish to pay tribute to the public service that Mr. Barclay gave. MR . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Lea der of the CCF) ' (Radis son): Mr . Speaker, I would like to say a word or two in connection with the late Cliff Barclay. I knew Mr .

Barclay quite inti mately as the Leader of the Opposition has stated, Mr. Barclay had his roots in the Town of Transcona where , of course , I reside, I know that long before I ever had any thought of enter ing into the political arena, accompanied with some of my elders we journeyed to Tyndall to get the advice of this man, who as my colleague has stated, sat in this House after '32 as a representative of farm and labour. The people of Transcona had joined at that particular time Page 170 February 23rd, 1961.

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd. ), •••• in support of Mr. Barclay , and he represented the Constituency of Springfield and the Town of Transcona very, very well. In 1945 when my predecessor in office here, Mr. George Olive, was chosen as the representative of the CCF Party, we journeyed to Tyndall to seek the advice and support of Cliff Barclay. I might say, Mr. gpeaker, that we got that support on the basis of the fact that George Olive and Cliff Barclay had been such personal friends before.

He still had his disagreements with many of our party policies, but he felt that it would be well for the legislature if he repaid, in some measure , the help that he had received from George Olive and the Town of Transcona when he was elected here. His family, the boy particularly, Mate Barclay, is still connected in the Town of Transcona. His daughter was a girl of some renown in the musical field. Apart from his political support, his political endea vours , Mr. Barclay, as the Leader of the Opposition said, was the father of a rather large family of whom many have made additonal contributions. May I, Mr.

Speaker, as a resid ent of Transcona, add to the condolences of this House in. memory of the late Cliff Barclay. MR. F. T. KL YM (Springfield): Mr. Speaker , I wish to thank the Acting First Minister for having informed me a few minutes ago of the pass ing of Mr. Clifford Barclay. Mr . Barclay, as was stated by a few former speakers , had represented a large part of Springfield, that is still Springfield, and he had made his home in Tyndall, which is just on the outskirts of Beausejour. Mr. Barclay was a great worker in a community and was faithful to his friends at all time.

Although he and I had been very good friends, at times we fought severely on public platforms, and I could not forget one particular incident when he got up and tapped the cane on the floor and said, "Frank, if I was 20 years younger , I'd cane you. " Well in a very short re tort, I came back and said, "Mr. Barclay, don't forget if I was 20 years younger too, probably I would run fast enough for you not to catch me." Hc.wever, I must admit that Mr. Barclay was a great public servant and a great debater. He was highly opinionated of many government policies and I respected him very highly for it.

I am sure that many people who knew Mr. Barclay throughout his career , both in his own community and in thi s House and throughout Springfield and probably throughout Manitoba, would also say the same as I do today. However, I wish to express my sympathy to his wife and his s:>ns and his daughters along with the rest who have spoken before me. MR. SPEAKER: Will the members please rise , as a mark of respect for a former member. Orders of the day . MR. R. SEABORN (Wellington): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the day , and on a question of privilege, I would request your leave to refer to the unfortunate statements made in thi s House in regards to CJAY and its supposed connection with CKY. I believe the members of this Chamber will appreciate obtaining some facts on the situation which obviously resulted in some concern. But may I assure you, the situation did not warrant taking such a grave view as demonstrated here yesterday. Here are the facts: first, CKY and CJAY TV are two separate and distinct enterprises. CJAY TV is owned by Messrs . Misen er, Peters_on, Moffatt .• MR. G.

MOLGAT {Ste. Rose) : Mr. Speaker, I hate to interrupt the Speaker , and I certainly think that thi s statement should be made at some time , but I believe the honourable member is completely out of order, is he not? MR. SPEAKER: It appears to me that he is making a statement. If he is re-opening the debate of yesterday , he is certainly out of order. MR. SEABORN: Mr. Speaker, I think in fairness, I should be allowed to proceed, for CJAY has been cast in an unfavourable light. MR. SPEAKER: No, it is not permissible to do that . MR. SEABORN: I'm not re-opening the debate Mr.

Speaker, I'm just making a statement of the facts . MR. SPEAKER: The debate of yesterday has been closed. MR. SEABORN: I would just like to make a statement to clarify the situation, Mr. Speaker. MR. MOLGAT: The honourable member could speak on the Throne Speech Debate could he not, and bring this in at that time ? I certainly have no objection to his making a statement. I'd be delighted to see it, but we have to keep the rules. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker , I think that we would all agree that the honourable member should have an opportunity to make his statement at some period.

I am not aware of the February 23rd, 1961 Page 171

(Mr. Evans, cont'd.) •••• contents of the statement in any detail and Your Honour might wish to take into consideration whether there has been any statement of fact, in the debate that has closed, that would warrant being set straight or , on the other hand, you might elect to decide that another opportunity does exist for the honourable member to clear up the situation and that he would then take that other opportunity to make his statement. MR .

SPEAKER : It would appear that yesterday we debated the question quite thoroughly, and if it is a matter of privilege, he would have the opportunity of making his statement. It might be better if he spoke on the Budget or the Throne Speech, and gave his opinions to the House in that manner. MR . CAMPBELL: I agree with the Honourable the Leader of the House that the honour able member should have the opportunity of making his statement, and I would suggest to him that if he thfuks it is of suff icient importance , that he move the adjournment of the House in order to discuss it. MR .

EVANS : Your Honour, I think we, on our part, would not advocate that course. We are at the stage with these new rules, it seems to me , wh ere we must be especially careful . There was criticism in past years of the direction in which the rules arid the customs of the House seemed to be tending. A revision of the rules has been undertaken and custom and precedent are now being created upon which the futu re course will depend. Now if I could counsel my honourable friend , I think he has not exhausted his right to speak on the main motion in the Throne Debate.

It would seem to me that it might receive general acceptance if my honourable friend decided to refer to this question under the main motion of the Throne Debate. There must be some ref erence there to Industry and Commerce, of which the tele vision industry is one, and that it could well be brought in on that. Before Your Honour gives his decision, he mey wish to let it be known as to whether he considers it would be proper for this to be brought in under the main motion of the Throne Debate.

MR • SPEAKER: Of course I am always a servant of the House, but it would appear that somewhere in the proceedings the honourable member should be able to voice his opinion; and I would think, on the main motion, that the House would agree that he should make his speech at that time. MR . SEABORN: I abide by your decision, Mr. Speaker. MR .• PAULLEY:-Before the Orders of the Day, I am sure the members of the House have noted the vacant seat to my left , of my colleague the Honourable Member for Burrows , John Hawryluk.

I regret to inform the House that his absence has been due to a severe attack of the flu and he anticipates being back in the Chamber, if his doctor will agree, on Monday next. MR . EVANS: I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that we would all hasten to tell the Honourable Leader and ask him to convey to the honourable member the fact that we have missed his genial presence and to hear that he is getting along so well and we look forward to his return. MR . PAULLEY: He inf orms me that he has already prepared half a dozen speeches, so maybe he will make up for lost time when he returns. HON.

JOHN THOMPSON (Minister of Public Works) (Virden) : Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to lay on the table the Annual Report of the Department of Public Works for the fiscal year ending March 31st, 19 60 . MR . CAMPBELL: I might ask the Honourable Minister if there are copies of that report for all members? MR . THOMPSON: These are being distributed. MR . EV ANS: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the ,Day, we had referred obliquely to the matter of the question of the FM frequency in terfering with Channel 12 .

I should like to inform the House that I communicated the aff air of yesterday to the Premier for his informa tion, and I sent a telegram to Doctor Stewart, who is the Chairman of the Board of Broadcast Management at Ottawa, and received confirmation that the telegram was delivered. MR . SPEAKER : Orders of the Day. HON. GEO . HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville) : Mr . Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to take this opportunity of advising the House of the contents of the report of the Flood Forecasting Committee .

The Flood Forecasting Committee held its initial meeting in 19 61, on Wednesday, February 22nd. The committee met to review Page 172 February 23rd, 19 61.

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd.) ••.•• the situation concerning flood prospects on the Red and Assiniboine Rivers. The following information was available to the committee for its appraisal of the situation: 1. Results of the snow survey made by the Water Control and Conservation Branch, during the period February 13th to 18th, in the basins of the Red and Assiniboine Rivers in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. 2. A soil moisture survey made by the same branch at freeze-up last fall . 3. Records of fall and early winter flow in both streams as recorded by the Federal Water Resources Branch. 4.

Meteorological information on fall and winter precipitation obtained by the Meteorological Service of Canada at stations in the watersheds of these rivers in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. The committee's conclusions are that, on the basis of calcu lations made using the above data, the river stages in Winnipeg this spring will be between 10 feet city datum and15 feet city datum as compared to the 18 foot level ordinarily considered to be the first flood stage in the Greater Winnipeg area.

On the Assiniboine River, indications are that peak flows during the spring will be confined to the channel at all points along this river. The committee advises that a subsequent meeting will be held in March to again review the situation as regards to flood prospects in the light of conditions existing at that time. MR . MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, in spite of the records and the informa tion that we have now, what is the government doing now -- now, not later -- in case there is danger of a flood? MR . EVANS: Mr .

Speaker, the actions of the government and government agencies in the event of an impending flood have been reduced to a flood plan in written form which sets out specific steps to be taken. I hope to table copies of that flood-fighting plan within a matter of a few days. I think the honourable member will see then that planning has been carried on in detail. MR . E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr . Speaker, would the House Leader provide us with the text of the telegram he sent to Dr . Andrew Stewart and the text of the reply please? MR . EV ANS: I should inform the honourable member, Mr.

Speaker, that no reply has been received from Dr. Stewart. I received confirmation from the Canadian National Tele graphs in Ottawa to the effect that the telegram had, in fact , been delivered. That was the statement I made at that time. I have three copies if the page would be -- I have a copy here, one for the Leader of the Opposition, one for the Leader of the CCF Party, and I have a third here -- perhaps the honourable member would care to have it himself. MR . PETER WAGNER (Fisher): Mr . Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Provincial Secretary. I don't see no index in the Hansard this year.

Will they appear in a later date or will they be excluded entirely ? MR . EVANS: Yes , I can answer the honourable member, it is the intention to include an index in the Hansard as the year goes on. I am not aware of the reason that it has been omitted to this point, but I am assured that it will be included from now on. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to inform the House that the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface, who has quite a reputation for being a sportsman, has achieved a rare distinction while playing at the Granite Curling Rink the other night. He had an eight-ender scored against him. MR . EVANS: Mr . Speaker, I think the Premier would be especially sorry to be absent today because in the gallery to your left, Sir, are 70 students from Gordon Bell High School with their teacher, Mr. Solove.

I want to assure the pupils of that illustrious school that we welcome them here; we hope they will stay with us and watch the conduct of public business; we hope that this will be a taste of public life that they will find agreeable; and that some , or many of them indeed, will find way into public life and public service.

I would say to them quite seriously that they heard the reputation and high regard in which one who has served in this capacity is held in this House; and I suggest to them that it's an example they can well look up to, to consider, and to hope that some day they might devote their talents to a similar public service. So in the absence of the Premier, who is the member for that constituency, I just want to express a word of welcome to the students and their teacher and I hope that they find their visit here pleasant and profitable. HON. GEO.

JOHNSON (Minister of Health & Public Welfare) (Gimli) presented Bill No . 19 ,

an Act to repeal The Health and Public Welfare Act and to amend Certain Other Acts for second reading. February 23rd, 1961. Page 173 .

Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. JOHNSON (Glmll) presented Bill No. 2,

an Act to amend The Vital Statistics Act. for second reading. Mr. Speaker read the motion. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli) : The principle of the amendment at this time is to clarify two things. First of all, apparently prior to the introduction of The Change of Name Act in 1938 , changes of names were accomplished by deed poll, that is, deed or notice of intention executed by the party concerned and filed in the County Court.

Now the present subsection of the act doesn't provide for the recorder to accept a "deed poll" change as evidence to enable him to make a notation of the change of name on the birth certificate. They have been doing it, but they want the act clarified to give them this authority.

Secondly, the present subsection only allows the recorder to make a notation of a change of name if it was made under our own provincial Change of Name Act or under a statute of another province of Canada, and this pro posed amendment will broaden this limitation and permit the recorder to make a notation based on a Change of Name Act made in accordance with the laws and territories of Canada and for eign states as defined in the present act.

This is just in simple terms to state that if the person has their name -- they're born in Manitoba and have their name changed in Denver, Colorado, for instance , or some place, they would be able to have the notation made on their birth certifi cate in this province , and this is apparently a very highly desirable amendment in the eye s of the department. MR. GRAY: Mr. Speaker, could the Honourable Minister tell this House how children of unmarried parents are being classed now?

In other words, what is the term being used on the records of children· of unmarried parents 'l Is that clear, or do you still want further explanation? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to take that under notice. I'm not just sure what the honourable member means, but if he would write it out for me I could check this. I think you are wondering whether the term "illegitimate" appears on a notice of birth. I'll check on this, but I don't think there 1 s been any change lately. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, there's just one comment I would like to make in connec tion with this act that appears a little bit peculiar to me -- not with the objective behind the bill. I would like to ask the Minister, or possibly the Attorney -General, whether this does not estab lish a precedent, insofar as the province and the British Commonwealth of Nations is concerned, by referring in legislation to the member nations of the British Commonwealth of Nations as a foreign state.

If it is not a precedent, well then it might be all right; but I think, Sir, that we should give very very serious consideration before we pass any legislation in this Assembly describing any member nation of the British Commonwealth of Nations as a foreign state, which indeed we are not. HON. STERLING R. LYON Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I un fortunately don't have a copy of the bill in front of me.

I did see it some time ago and I can't, with any accuracy, quote from it of course, but I think the sense in which the word "foreign" is used there is in -- the CCF will appreciate this -- in legal terms , foreign meaning outside of the province . Saskatchewan, in a legal sense and not in any other sense , is in ess ence of foreign legal jurisdiction to Manitoba; and I think it is foreign in the small sense of the word rather than in the sense which has been imputed by my honourable friend, but certainly I agree that we should take a look at this.

The point had not been brought home to me before and I'm quite happy to take a look at it. MR. PAULLEY: ••••••••.•••• it if is looked into. Mr. gpeaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Arthur for an Address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in answer to his Speech at the Opening of this Session, and the proposed motion and the amendrrent thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, adding the following words: "but that this House regrets that Your Honour's Government, with many of its pre-election promises unfulfilled, have greatly added to the burden of the Manitoba taxpayers , both provincial and municipal, and at the same time have drastically increased the Provincial Debt.

The Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains. Page 1-74 February 23rd, 1961

MR. M.N. HRYHORCZUK, Q.C. (Ethelbert Plains): Mr. Speaker, I wish to extend to you my congratulations and best wishes for good health and patience . To the members of Arthur and Cypress, I extend my congratulations for very commendable efforts. I'm quite sure the members of this House enjoyed both of those addre sses. And to the Honourable Member from Pembina, a very cordial welcome and I hope that her stay here will be pleasant. Now, Mr. Speaker, insofar as the Throne Speech is concerned, I don't think that we can find too much to praise nor too much to criticize in it.

There is a sort of an atmosphere of uncertainty that seems to shroud both the Throne Speech and the attitude of our front benchers in the government. Now that isn't only our opinion on this side of the House. From what some of the members have said so far in this debate , in the government ranks, you could almost feel that that same uncertainty was there with them.

But aside from the atmosphere and the feeling, I think we have some concrete proof that the government has reached the stage of where it feels that if it had given the serious consideration to the government of the province that they should have given it, that things would have been somewhat different. And I think we find the first signs of admission in what the First Minister had to say when he called his Cabinet together at Manitou Lodge in Pine Falls. This was supposed to have been a pretty secret meeting.

Nobody was to know nothing about it but the press , being what it is, had a reporter out there bright and early before the meeting really got under way , together with a photographer, if what we saw on the front page of the Tribune was correct. Now what did the First Minister say that the reason for meeting at Manitou Lodge was? Well, he said that there were too many questions and too many distractions in the House.

Well that means to me that in the past the First Minister and the Cabinet, while making their decisions in this House and forming their plans and programs, were pestered with questions and dis tractions and were ·unable to give their responsibility the serious consideration it deserves . He went on further and he said, "I wanted to get my Ministers away from their duties and the constant stream of phone calls that pour into the office in the legislature. I wanted to get together with them quietly so we could talk to each other without interruptions." Well, Mr.

Spea.l;:er, I know that we're all very proud of this building.· We feel we have one of the finest legislative buildings on the continent. It cost the people of this province a great deal of money and I think the money was well spent. There is provision, an excellent provision for the First Minister and his Cabinet members to meet in, and that is the Council Chambers . To my memory I don't recall there being a telephone in that particular room to interrupt their deliberations .

I think that this government has come to a rude awakening, and I think that they would remind one of a "playboy" who has spent his inheritance and now has to go it alone on his own 1and finds he is not quite prepared to do so . What were the reasons for meeting at Manitou Lodge, as given by the First Minister and reported in the Tribune? That they were assessing-progress to date and searching out trouble spots ahead. Well no doubt they have made progress , some in the right direction and some, I'm sorry to say, in a direction that wasn't so right.

I feel that they begin to realize that they'd spent a great deal of money without the forethought and foresight that they should have used. I don't think it was so much assessing progress to date as it was the assessing of the mistakes of the past. I don't think that they had to meet at Manitou Lodge or anywhere else to search out the trouble spots ahead, because I think at this very moment, for some time now, they have found th emselves in a peck of troubles. It wasn't necessary for them to search for these trouble spots .

They're quite evident to most members in this House, if not all of them, and to quite a large extent the population of the province. Mr. Speaker, it's peculiar it took them two and a half year s to find it, and that's just my point. As far as trouble spots are concerned, the trouble spots or the troubles you are in have been created by yourselves, and I think we 've got admissions right along the line for that -- admissions in the Throne Speech. That same aggressiveness that this government showed in its first and second session is certainly missing today . It seems to be void of new ideas .

It's not so sure that the old ideas are the right one s, nor where they are leading them nor where they should steer them to. It didn't take any govern ment, any previous government, to put them in the position they are in, and I think it is simply that they started to run before they learned to walk. I think it's just as good a way you could explain that as any other. Well, let's hope that this meeting at the Manitou Lodge will produce something more sound, solid, concrete and classic -- (Interjection) -- • vfe should February 23rd, 1961 Page 175

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd .) •• ••• have -- what ? -- (Interjection)- I think that you would have d�nl!l as well -- maybe better. Now let's see what progress they have been making in the past, and what progress they had to consider. I'm not so. sure that I know just what they were discussi ng there, but I think I've a fairly good idea. I see that they didn't have their brain trust with them , or as. our late friend the Member for Rhineland used to call the junta. In fact I don't see too much evidence of what that brain trust has been doing to assist the government.

On the contrary, I think that probably they're partially to blame for the jam that the government finds itself in at the present moment. I can see only one accomplshment, and if that can be attributed to the brain trust insofar as. the economy of this province is concerned , and that is the closing down of one of the elevators in this building. It occurs to me that this could have been intentional but I hope it wasn't.

That elevator serves the office of the Leader of the Opposition; it serves the office of the Leader of the CCF; it serves the Liberal caucus room; and it serves the man that's probably responsible for this. Well I'm not sorry for him. Now coming back to these financial imported wizards . What I'm finding difficulty in understanding is how this brain trust did not inform the Honourable the Acting Provincial Trea surer that the costs of hospitalization were increasing and didn't inform him that his prediction of a $3 million surplus for the current year was impossible.

How could the Honourable Prov incial Treasurer have predicted the surplus of $3 million just a few months before the govern ment found it necessary to increase the hospitalization premiums by 50% ? Of course that's the trick $3 million . That same $3 million was used once before. It was used last year and it would appear that if the Honourable the Provincial Treasurer continues to have this similar surplus of $3 million at the end of the term of this government, if it happens to last its full five years, they should have $15 million surplus in the "kitty" .

Well I say that that is a rather tricky surplus, because the first $3 million was borrowed from the former government. I think that particular point was raised here and well raised, and proven; but the Honourable the Prov incial Treasurer continues to use that same $3 million.

He's used it twice now and I'm quite sure that if you begin to look into where he keeps his surpluses, wherever they are, you would probably find $3 million or you could find $3 million -- I don't think you would, but you could - but I'm sure that you'll never see it double or triple itself no matter how often he announces it in his budget speech. Now if that's all the brain trust is going to do , and be of that much help to the government, probably it's about time that both the brain trust and the government took permanent lodgings in the Manitou Lodge.

Maybe from there they could do something that would do away with a lot of these, maybe inconsequentials, but still important to the people of this province . Now, there's one other little trick that this government loves to use , and they're making political hay with it. If you refer to the Throne Speech you'll find that where it talks about Public Works, that the word "large" appears the re three times -- large public works programs. Well, Mr . Speaker, just how large are these programs? The people of this province have been bamboozled into believing that this government really has large road programs.

And how did they get the people of this province to believe that? By making large appropriations during the sessions and then failing to spend those appropriations during the current year for which they had been made. Last year the Honourable Minister for Public Works informed this House they had a carry-over of $27 million in his department. His total appropriations for the current year were $55 million. So what did he do? He carried out half tile promises that this govern ment led the people to believe that they would carry out.

He spent half that money, so actually · their public works program was only half as large as they led the people of this province to believe. · MR . K. ALEXANDER (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, will the honourable member permit a question? MR . HRYHORCZUK: Certainly. MR . ALEXANDER: Has he read the page in this report where it lists the annual expend- itures of the Department of Public Works, listed from the year 1950-51 up to 1960? MR . HRYHORCZUK: Is that the one that's been laid on our table today? MR . ALEXANDER: That's right. MR . HRYHORCZUK: No, I haven't had the opportunity to read it. Page 176 February 23rd, 1961

MR . ALEXANDER : The honourable member should read it. I'd advise that he would. MR . HRYHORCZUK: But I certainly will read it, and probably find a few little leaks and cracks in it too. Now last year the Honourable the Minister of Public Works predicted that he would have a carry-over of $18 million in the current year which is less, or rather the $18 million is more than 50% of this large public works program that the government was going to give the people of this province . I don't think that we should label that as "large".

I think that this public works program for the past two years anyhow, should be labelled as "nebulous", as a will-o-the-wisp program . Something that you're told exists, but when you start looking for it it's not there . And there are good reasons why it's not there , because the government hasn't spent the money to build the roads that they promised to build. That's just as simple as it is -- on their own submission, on the figu res that they have given this House. Now getting a little closer to home, I can give you, Mr. Speaker, an example of how this government works.

Members of the House will recall that last year I gave an invitation to Visit one of the fine st recreation areas we have in the Province of Manitoba, namely, the Duck Mountains . I told the members of the House then that the road leading from the east to the west across this mountain had been completed. I also told you that a road leading from the south end to the north end of the mountain was under construction and was completed with the exception of about nine miles. This nine miles happens to be more or less in the centre of this road.

There is construction from the north and there is construction from the south, but whether you come from the north or the south you come to a dead end. Now there's been a lot of money spent in constructing that road as far as it has gone -- (Interjection) --I oug ht to know --yes. And you ought to know what your colleague is doing insofar as making use of the money that has been spent. And I am sure the Honourable the First Minister would be inter ested to know what the investment of the people of this province is giving them.

There are nine miles uncompleted, and I have had assurance bf both the former Minister of Public Works and this Minister that that work would be completed. I am sure that there was at least one appro priation of $150 , 000 for this work. I am under the impression that there were two, but none of this money has been spent to complete this road. That is where you get your surpluses.

And because this is an important road to our tourist trade, to the inhabitants of this province who are looking forward to having recreation areas opened up that are in close proximity to their places of residence , I am sure that they often wonder why this road has not been completed. The money has been there; the weather in 1959 and 1960 was ideal; but nothing has been done.

If there are very many projects of this kind in the Province of Manitoba, and if you multiply or divide $27, 000, 000 by $150 , 000 you will find there are hundreds of projects of this nature that must be left unattended to by this government, otherwise this carry-over will not be there. Now what is the scheme of the government insofar as political publicity is concerned? They adopt grandbis ideas, one idea at a time and they place it before the public and keep it there , such as No. 10 to The Pas; such as the GJOand Rapids road.

And furthe rmore , the public doesn't know what is going on in the next constituency or the one furthe r on. They are concerned with their own. If there is a little bit of work done, far from what they expected, they always say, well maybe there's work being done somewhere else. But we, the members of this House, know that that isn't right. And when the members, the back-benchers on the government side get up and tell us that we are wrong when we make these criticisms, well they are not just facing the fac ts, Mr. Speaker, because the fact s are that there are those carry-overs.

And where did they come from if the work was done that was promised to the people of this Province , or that the people of this province were led to believe would be done? Now I don't care which $150 ,000 appropriation the Honourable Minister uses, whether it is the '59, the '60 or a new one in '61. I would urge that this road be completed, because it does mean further additional revenue as far as the province is concerned in gasoline tax.

This road would be used too, I would say, 10 times what it is at the present time, because then it would lead you somewheres; and I certainly would like to see that road completed this year. Now, Mr . Speaker, I want to again extend an invitation to the members of this House and to you, Sir, to visit this wonderful recreational area in the Duck Mountains this coming summer. Until you have seen it, you cannot visualize what it is really like. MR. W .G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): Mr.

Speaker , I would like first of all to join with others who have offered congratulations to you, Sir, and pray that your health and strength may February 23rd, 19 61. Page 177

(Mr. Martin , cont'd.) ••.•. be such that you will continue to occupy this exalted position for many years to come. There are some members in the House , Sir , who are not just of that mind. They wouldn't like you to be there too long. Whether they are thinking of the decrees of Providence or the decrees of the people, I am not so sure . If it is the former, then I would like to say that , in my professional capacity , I am taking care of that ; and if it's the latte r, they are doomed to disa ppointment.

May I also express my congratulations to the mover and seconder of the resolution in Reply to the Speech from the Throne . The name , Arthur , Sir, in English history, has a royal significance , and I am quite sure that the Honourable Member for Arthur in this Legislature will make a royal and significant contribution to the deliberations of this House. And my desk-mate, the Honourable Member for Cypress , I was very impressed the first time that I heard her speak in this House and was doubly impressed with the speech which she delivered here the other day.

And also I offer congratulations to the Member for Pembina , successor to a worthy man beloved by all who knew him . As I think of these two members sitting on this side of the House, sitting in this Chamber , I feel quite sure that if the spirits of those who were the founders of the great cause of the enfranchif•ement of women could look down upon this august assembly , they would see of the travails of their souls and be satisfied.

The giving of the vote to women marked a great forward step in our democracy and we are very proud indeed of the lady members that we have in this Legisla ture at the. present time . And I am quite sure, Sir, that the claims of their constituencies, and the rights of women in Manitoba, will be well taken care of in their hands. I have had a feeling, Sir, during this session, that some of our friends opposite have been looking with envious eyes in this direction as they see that we are accompanied by two lady members . I have been thinking the thing over.

I think that that problem can be solved, that is , that if at the next election my honoUJ;able friends ·see the light and come over and join us on this side of the House , they will share with us the company of these angels of light. Now, Sir, the Leader of the Opposition has laid charges that the present adm inistration does not merit the confidence of the people because of pre-election promises unfulfilled and because of the additional burden placed upon the taxpayers of our municipalitie s and the province, and of the drastic increase in the public debt.

I think I can sum up an ans wer in a very few words , that more has been achieved for the good and welfare of the people of this province in the past two and a half years than in the whole decade when my honourable friend the Lea der of the Opposition was the Premier of this House . And when it comes to financial burdens , what department would he suggest should have done less ? Would he say that we should have done less in health programs? Would he suggest that we should have done less for the aged and the handicapped? Would he suggest for a moment that the Minister of Agriculture should curtail his program ?

He certainly is not going to suggest, or the members on the opposite side , that we are going to do less for roads , because the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains has just intimated to us just how much more should be done . Is he going to suggest to the Minister of Education that they should do less? They have presented a charter of opportun,. . ity to the boys and girls of this province such as they have never enjoyed before; and these achievements , Mr.

Spe aker, have had such approval that it doesn't sound at all as though this administra tion and the various departments are guilty of unfulfilled promises. The Minister of Commerce and Industry has been taken to task for the establishment of a committee to study Manitoba's economic future, outlined in the Speech from the Throne , and a report on measures that would be necessa ry for the maximum economic development. Concerning that point, my honourable friend suggests that the voice is the voice of the govern ment , while the hand is the hand of the Minister of Commerce and Industry. But , Mr.

Speaker , the establishment of such a committee as this is very valuable in times such as these, and I don't remember that it has ever occurred to our friends of the opposition to take such a forward move such as the government has done in this regard. My honourable friend criticizes the use of the word "study" with reference to the Depart ment of Coi'nmerce and Industry. Now, Mr. Speaker, it's hard to understand why a man who is dedicated to the public service of the people should find fault with the exercise of delving into facts and circumstances and conditions with a view to getting successful results .

"But here," says my friend, concerning the Minister of Industry and Commerce, "here is "S tudying'� again" . Well what, Mr . Speaker, in the name of common sense , has the department been · Page 178 February 23;rd, 1961.

(Mr . Martin, cont'd. ), •••• doing during the past few year s? Well the answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is that they have been studying. And again he suggests , "hasn't my honourable friend had enough study on the way yet ? No, he and the various departments under him are continuing to study and will continue to study as long as they are here . Now , " he says , "they are going to have a new one , with leaders in the field of labour and primary production, indus try, university , government and the general community. " Well, Mr.

Speaker, that is most valuable beca use , after all , what can we do better than bring into our operation all the forces available in order to study from every possi ble point of view what can be done to solve the problems and to enrich the resources of this province . Here's a com mission, utilizing every available enlightenment and under standing and experience , bringing all these things to bear upon the problem . While it looks as though there's some criticism as far as the Honour able Leader of the Opposition is concerned, my comment when I look at this is, it's splendid.

It's keeping abr�ast of the times; it's using every available force in order to better the con ditions and to advance the province. These men carry on their work. That's where the Opposition has failed. They haven't discovered just what should be done in this regard . And that's why, Sir, the political rocket launched at Cape Campbell has fai led to go into orbit. In 1958 it came cras hing down; and in 1959 it went spluttering to the earth and disappeard in the abysmal depths. Had they, Mr.

Speaker, been diligent; had they studied; had they done their homework, it might have been that the political rocket which they fired into space may have been circling in the political firmaments of the province today and be sending back mes sages and signals that would have been worthwhile as far as the citizenry of Manitoba is concerne d. The achievement of the Department of Industry and Commerce does not, Mr. Speaker, sound like the dirge of unfulfilled promise s. Take , for instance , the Industrial Development Fund.

I talked with men of all walks of life , men in a position to know, men of the city and men of the rural sections , and as they consider this fund , their unrestrained and unbiased opinion is one of high praise . Again and again you will hear the comment , "never before was anything of the kind es tablished whereby the little man, the small manufacturer, would be able to have a stake in the economic and industrial program of the province. This is something for which we're profoundly grateful." Despite the strenuous time s, Mr.

Speaker, confronting the nations of the world, Manitoba has been enjoying good times for manufacturing. It was just a year ago on the floor of this House when the Minister of Industry and Commerce stood in his place and told us that the manufacturing output for the previous year had totalled $744 million, which was an increase of 70 millions over the previous year . And a very interesting thing about it is the variety of products sharing in the increase . One important aspect of the situation is that this industrial expansion was not confined to existing indus tries.

Nearly every day as we pick up our paper we would read of new industries that had been attracted to Mani toba because of the opportunities available. At the economic conference held in our city recently and attended by the Fede ral Minister of Trade and Commerce and the department heads , there was a clear indication of the optimism which prevails among the busine ss people of this province; and the consensus of opinion, Mr .

Speaker, was that the ec onomic and industrial future of Manitoba is very bright and it isn't difficult for us to envisage that during the next decade we shall witness a period of expansion and development which will exceed the most sang uine hopes and the most generous expectations of the most far-seeing business and professional men of our province . We have heard it said that this is the "postage-stamp province ". I like to think of it, Mr. Speaker, as the keystone province , making the arch of our Canadian economy stay firm and secu re .

The point that I would like to make is this, the 600 men who jam med into the hotel that day were not there merely to see and to hear the distin�shed visitor in the person of the Federal Minister of Trade and Commerce who had just carried out that tremendous achievement of bringing together the Trade Commissioners from all countries, something that had never happened before in Canadian history. But they weren't there just for that purpose . The reason why they were there was the direct result of the initiative and the foresight of Manitoba's Minister of Industry and Commerce .

He had studied the importance of such a conference , He followed it through with tenacity of purpose and he did it in such style that a whole department at Ottawa packs up and comes here to the heart of the continent, not Flee Island I would sugge st to my honourable friend the Lea der of the Opposition, but the heart of the continent here in Winnipeg -- February 23rd, 1961 Page 17 9

(Mr. Martin, cont'd.) ••••• something that had never happened before. It never occurred to any department at Ottawa to pack up ;md come half-way across the country for�uch a confer ence. Perhaps they had never been invited. Perhaps up to the present time they didn't realize that there was anything that would attract and woo them. Now with reference to the Department of Health and Welfare, that came under criticism in the speech of my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition , criticizing the high hospital ization costs . Well it was evident again, Sir, this lack of study.

The former government initiated the scheme, set the premium rates -- the first premium rates; and if they had studied carefully what was involved in such a plan, they would have not have handed over to their successors a plan which would be totally inadequate so far as the financial aspect of meeting the situation was concerned. The steadily mounting figure in the cost of hospitalization has made : it imperative for the present government to embark upon a careful survey. Something drastic had to be done. You_heard)t in the speech of the Ministe.r of Health and Welfare the other day.

But the part of the Minister's speech which I think should be printed in characters of gold was the fact that 41 , 000 indigent, handicapped citizens in this province are receiving the hospital plan benefits without the payment of premiums . Prior to the plan this would have been the responsibility of the municipality; now the burden has been accepted by the province . And so , Mr. Speaker , I just pat the Leader of the CCF on the back when he suggests there is nothing to worry about the increase in the public debt if the first charge upon the administration is the welfare of the people .

The people of Manitoba, Sir , are becoming increasingly aware of the tremendous task of providing adequate care for the physically and mentally ill; and also the task of providing adequate assistance for the indigent, aged and handicapped.

And, Sir, they are becoming increasingly aware of the statesmanlike manner in which the Minister of Health and Welfare and this present government are facing up to this great problem., ever keeping in mind, as the Minister said himself in the closing part of his speech the other day, "the concern we have for those fellow citizens of ours in the lower income groups where a premium of this nature can create a hardship, this is the area we continue to explore, 11 and I think that should be sounded far and wide.

The hardship that will come under the present rates to the people who live in the lower income brackets, that this is an area we continue to explore. Hospital ization is here and we have to make the best job of it we can, and I want to say, at least for the members of this side of the House , they're doing a grand and successful job. Study, Mr. Speaker, is not enough. It has to be followed by action. Take, for instance , the floodways of which my. honourable friend made reference.

Friends on the other side are asking in impatient tones, "what is being done, if anything:?" It's nearly 10-1 /2 years since that disaster befell us and for the maj or part of that time the Campbell govern ment was in power. Nothing done -- oh yes, they studied the situation and a federal engineer submitted his report, three years after the flood in 1953 , that was slow enough for our friends in Ottawa, but then another three years elapsed before the government of my honourable friend did anything.

Then they appointed a Royal Commission, and that commission presented its report a year or so after the present government took office. Now, Mr. Speaker, things are moving. My honourable friend said, and these were his words , "progress is being made, progress is being made. 11 But he did utter a word of warning to the First Minister that he ' would rue the day that he ever suggested that he was ready to tackle this question single-handed and go it alone, Now , Mr.

Speaker, I'd rather pin my confidence in the man who, in the face of emergency seeking to protect the lives and the property of the people, is ready to go it alone if needs be . I'd rather pin my confidence in that man than to follow the banner of one dare not tackle the job without a definite promise of allied help. The trouble, Mr. Speaker, is that the administration of which my honourable friend was the head was the government of inaction. Their philosophy was the philosophy of "Wilkins Macawber", who was always waiting for something to turn up. Well, Mr. Speaker, something did turn up -- a new government.

And when the new government turned up it turned out and turned down the administration which today, after nearly three years in opposition , is seeking to woo the favour of the citizens of this province and yet lacking-- lacking, for I haven't heard it in any speech on this debate yet from the other side, lacking in any vestige of clear-cut, forward-looking constructive policy that would justify the confidence of the people when on voting day they went to register their ballots . When the Leader of the CCF presented his sub-amendment, Page 180 February 23rd, 1961.

(Mr. Martin, cont' d.) ••••• I'll admit on the question of national health insurance , I'll admit that two or three mem bers on the other side were swift on their feet to say "that's our idea; that's our plan; it was resolved at our rally, but we would look foolish if we voted for it". Now of all the things that I have ever heard on a legislative fl oor, I think that's the honey. Of course they would look foolish if they voted for the sub-amendment of our friends in the light of their leader' s amendment . In April, Sir, there's going to be another rally. It's going to be the battle of the century.

The walls of the building where that will take plac e will resound with a skirl of confused pipings . The Campbe ll's are coming! Hooray! Hooray! The Campbe lls are going! Hooray! hooray! When the last echo of lament has died into silence , the warriors will come out, some kilted and some un-kilted and they will still be without a policy that will capture the imagination of the people of Manitoba. The present government , Mr. Speaker, in all its departments is making an exacting study of the problems affecting the prosperity and welfare of the peop le . And my friends know that.

They can't honestly deny it, and they know also, Sir, that the men who occupy the government benches possess outstanding qualities of leadership and administrative skill. They've been put to the test in trying times and they have not been found wanted. And they know something further, that while it is the hope and ambition of my friends yonder to occupy the seats here , Sir, upon your right; they know that the voyage of the ship of state of this province is in safe hands with the present administration at the helm . MR. GRAY: ....... would you mind answering a question?

My question to you, Sir, is your party or yourself in favour of free medical and other health services to the people of this province at the present time ? MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I'm in favour of everything that can be done to help and aid the people of this province within the bounds of the financial possibiFty. There isn't a thing - if there is one administration that has sought to meet the needs of the peop le , the social needs of the peop le , I am very proud to say that I belong to that party now. MR. GRAY: Mr. Speake r, may I ask a supplementary question?

The honourable mem ber said "if and when and how"and "if possible ." What are those patients who are suffer ing today, the sick peop le , to do now ? Wait until your leader will declare a policy, or can we do anything now? MR. MARTIN: Well , Mr. Spe aker, we 're doing it now.

I don't think that there was ever an administration in the history of this province which was so aware of its social responsibility as the present government ; and every real need that is presented to them , whether it's the physi cally or for the mentally sick or the handicappe d in any way, the poor and the distressed, has a sympathetic ear as far as this administration is concerned, and it is exercising every power and will continue to ex ercise that power to measure up to its obligation and fulfill its trust. MR. GRAY: May I be permitted to ask another question. If this is the case, why oppose it? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mountain • • • • • • • • • • • Continued next page . February 23rd, 1961 Page 181,

MR. E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to take

part in the debate on the amendment to the Speech from the Throne. Fi rst of all I would like to add my congratu lations , Sir, to you on your achievement as Speaker of this House and of the job that you are doing; to the mover and seconder of the Speech from the Throne I add my congratulations, and the best wis hes for our new member, and I am sure that she is going to add charm and dignity to the party of which she has been elected successfully to this House. Mr.

Speaker, I have li stened for the last few minutes to a degree of oratory of the vir tuous facts of the party in power, and I am sorry that I can't share the enthusiasm. I would like to return at this time the remarks made by the same honourable member that spoke pre vious to me that he did to me a year ago, that the speeches made that he made was a volume of ibberish gibberish.

He is looki ng for examples of the wonderful success of the government that is in power in Manitoba today, and I am not going to take time to take department by department apart, but as one example,.Sir, and one that is in my constituency, I would like to develop for a few mi nutes. In the southern part of Manitoba over the past ten or twelve years, many of the rural towns have had to buy the desire to maintain and live, had to buy the health problem, to establish in their towns certain facilities which did cost a tremendous amount of money.

In the first instance, and I might say, Sir, when the Liberal Government was in power in both Mani toba and Ottawa, applications were made through the PFRA for certain reservoirs to be. esta bltshed in localities that were desirous of establishing sewer and water systems and the only source of supply they had was from the above ground reservoirs , up until a matter of a year ago the PFRA in Ottawa did establish in a lot of rural towns and more particularly true in my constituency, PFRA dams and controls at little or not cost to the municipalities or towns in volved; the only cost that they were asked to share was the purchase of the land that the water did flood.

The burden of construction was carried by the PFRA. In 1955, Sir, the Municipalit y of Winchester and Deloraine did apply for a PFRA dam. It did go through the process of their department and was used, I might say, used for various political expedients in 1957 and '58, promis ing the people of Deloraine that this particular reservoir would be built. Ei ght days prior to the by-election of November 26 , 1959, at the convenience of the cabinet of the present government, an Order-in-Council was passed declaring Deloraine a water area under the Water Supply Board Act.

At the convenience of a cabinet mi nister, it was transmitted to Deloraine and publicly acclaimed, Sir, in the weekly newspaper, that we now are in the Water Area Act, that the provincial government is going to establish water within our town and all our worries are now over. I am sorry to inform the members of the government that this has not come true.

The Minister of Health will agree wi th me, the Minister of Industry and Commerce wi ll agree wi th me, that one of the great attributes that a town .in rural Manitoba must have is to provide the services necessary to maintain the standards of livi ng that are required by people who might be interested to come in, in industry.

Due to the fact, I'm informed, that this particular area was proclaimed by Order-in-Council that they, the province, can charge up a sum of money and then charge it back to that particular town to supply water, that the PFRA imm ediately came into the picture and have started negotiations that the Province of Manitoba will share wi th them some scheme of which, up to the moment, I have not been informed, although I asked last March 1st, 2nd I believe, from then the Leader of the House, if certain agreements were being pro cessed or negotiated.

It was agreed then that I would be in receipt of that when it was trans pired. I have also a letter from the Premier of the province dated September 26th, 1960, of which he says they - "are now in the process of making a suggestion and in due course it will be revealed". But in the meantime, Sir, here is the Town of Deloraine, one of the old towns · of the province, who are in the sense of chaotic confusion, not knowing what to do, or where to go. It would seems to me, Sir, that there is an element of doubt or disagreement between the political cousins .

They will not agree to establish the Water Area's Act in Manitoba to a degree that they will pay a share that the PFRA wish them to do. The PFRA says, "We'll build a dam, but you are going to pay your share. "· Now, Sir, the members across the way voted for this Water Supply Act. They must take the consequences of the application of it, the same as we are being accused that we vote for things in honesty and integrity that we think is best for the pro vince.

Here is a case, Sir, that the Premier of the House asked for some speci fic case of an unfilled promise , and I bring it to you, Sir, not in the hope that we can make -- and if I might Page 182 February 23rd, 1961

(Mr.

Dow, cont'd. ) ..... be ...• .. ... to just suggest, Sir, and I can read the letter if so de sired, a letter from an individual from Deloraine, who maintains that the present time, that not only the Government of Manitoba at the present time, and the Federal Government at Ottawa are now making Deloraine a political football , and the same time they are so sincere that they have no place to move to get the services, and I can suggest to you, Sir, that if you will take the records, the municipal records , for tbe past two years, you will find the urban areas sur rounding Deloraine in the south-west corner which have the services of sewer and water, have all made very substantial progress in industry, buildings and other civic improveme nts.

Delor aine is one that is not and is going back, and that is the reason it's going back because it cannot give to the people the services that they require, should have, and this government should give some direct imm ediate leadership to fulfill that end. MR. J. A. CHRISTIANSON (Portage la Prairie) : Mr. Speaker, let me first add my con gratulations to those who have gone before in your reoccu pation of that throne, which you occ upy so fittingly. I pray that your tenure of office may be as long as it has already been auspicious.

I would like to add my congratulations too, to the Member from Arthur and the Honourable Mem ber from Cypress, for their very able presentation of the motion in reply to an address from His Honour. My congratulations too, to the very charming member from Pembina. She is a valuable addition to our party and we welcome her. Now, Mr. Speaker, we are indebted to the Leader of the Opposition for another lengthy, and on the whole entertaining discourse on liberal policy, or should I say, lack of policy, but I fear, Sir, that it contained much more wit than wisdom .

He made some rema rks about the Royal Commiss ion on Education, and in comm enting that there was no mention of the Commissi on report in the Throne speech he said, and I would like to quote: "This lack of decision is in striking contrast to the prompt, not to say precipitous action which the government took in implementing the recom mendations of the Royal Commis sion regarding school divisions and teachers' sala ries. On these the government acted so quickly that it caused many people to believe the political motives were combined with educa tional policy.

"· Well indeed, he is still trying to prove that the school division plan was some thing new. He seems to forget that it was first recomm ended by a Royal Commissi on back, I think, in 1925, and again by a special commi ttee in the House in 1946, and yet when his party was so unceremoniously removed from office, there was only one school division plan in all of Manitoba. He forgets also that the new approach to education was a policy of this party for many years prior to 1958. It was endorsed by the people of Manitoba in that election and on subsequent elections, as he well knows.

The interim report of the Royal Commissi on was merely the vehicle that this government chose to implement their policy. This party promised to com pletely revitalize the educational system of this province, to provide equality of educational op portunity, no matter where a person happened to live, to bring teachers' salaries up to a reasonable level, and we have done just that. The figures on school enrollment, on high schools built and building, are ample proof that we have kept our promises in that regard. Now, Mr. Speaker ....... .... . MR. CAMPBELL: ...... ..•... another matter, may I ask him a question?

MR. CHRISTIANSON: Certainly Sir. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gent lema n mentioned that there was only one school division established by the former government. Has he forgotten that the area that he lived in was in a high school division? MR. CHRISTIANSON: I believe, Sir, that this was called a seco ndary school area, a larger school area; I don't believe that it was a com plete division. It was only one ....... . MR. CAMPBELL: That's what these are that my hon::mrable friend is talking about now. MR. CHRISTIANSON: I stand corrected, Sir, there was one large division and one sma ll division. MR.

CAMPBELL: Will he remember that there were several others, as well as the one that he lived in? Has he forgotten about Springfield? Has he forgotten about Neepawa? MR. CHRISTIANSON: I suggest, Sir, that the facts are that these school divisions were not run with sufficient grants to carry on the purpose for which they were intended. MR . CAMPBELL: That's a little different to what you said a minute ago. MR. CHRISTIANSON: I shouldn't get into an argument with my honourable friend. Let us look, Mr. Speaker, at what he had to say on crop insurance. He says, and I quote -- he's February 23rd, 196 1 Page 183

(Mr. Christianson, cont1d. ) •..•. asking the Minister of Agriculture -- "I'd like to ask him, does he really think that the crop insurance test areas have been well received by farmers, when the fact is, according to the figures that we have seen published, that for every dollar that was paid to the farmers as insurance, the farmers themselves and the taxpayers of Mani toba and the taxpayers of Canada combined paid out five dollars. Does he really think that satis factory? Does he really think that the farmers in Manitoba will think that a program like that will last? " Well, Mr.

Speaker, I certainly hope that the other directors of the Portage la Prairie Mutual Insuranc e Company don't hear about his theories on insurance, because if they do, .I am afraid that they won't long want to keep him as a member of their board. He is shocked to learn that the insurance fund only paid out one-fifth as much in losses as was paid in in premiums and grants. Apparently he does not realize that last year was a fairly good crop year in Manitoba. There were few poor crops and little in the way of.hall and insect damage. Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased that nature has been kind to my good friend the Honourable Minister of Agriculture in this first year of this revolutionary experiment here in Manitoba. The greatest peril in setting up any insurance scheme is the risk of large losses before adequate reserves are built up. I think we are on our way to an excellent start on crop insurance here. Mr. Speaker, I have always had a great regard and affection for the Honourable Member for Selkirk.

His forthrightness and sincerity have, I think, endeared him to all of us here, and we are indebted to him for the explanation of the Liberal Party's health program. Now we have all the facts. We knClw that the brave show at Ottawa was just so much political window dressing. Rather than attempt to assess need, to meet the facts as they are today, they have tried to steal the New Party's platform of socialized medicine. Now they tell us that it will only be proclaimed when the country can afford it. They are presuming, of course, that they will be the ones who will be in the position to make that vital decision.

Well, with the kind of political double talk we heard at Ottawa during that rally, the day when they are in the position to make that decision will be a long time in coming. Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that like the old gray mare, the great Liberal Party "ain't what she used to be", and, Mr. Speaker, if we don't hear something more of substance from the leader or the would-be leaders of the official oppo sition, than we have heard so far in this session, I would warn them that they are in great dan ger of sinking even lower in the political spectrum of Manitoba than they are today. MR.

SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. G. W. JOHNSON (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, may I, like all the previous speakers, add my compliments to you, Sir, and fully concur with not all that has been said, but certainly all those words that I am sure came from the heart, but I must refer to the wishes of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition as to the wishes extended to you as to your tenure of office from the Leader of the CCF Party. I am one of those, Mr. Speaker, that do enjoy listening to good speeches, but I noted when both these honourable gentlemen came to that

part in their con gratulatory remarks to you, that there was a note of pathos; their voice seemed to drop into what one could only interpret as wishful thinking. Could be reverence, because I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that in both cases, both these honourable members know that quite the reverse will be in effect, certainly insofar as the people of this province are concerned. I am quite sure that the vast majo rity of them do not concur and will not concur in those remarks. To the mover and seconder of the address, may I also add my congratulations. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that from my point of view that every member in this House, anyone who is in terested in the sincerity of which every person who rises, speaks, could not help but be thrilled with the sincerity of note struck in the speech from the Honourable Member from Arthur and also the Honourable Member from Cypress. For my part, I must say that I did receive that thrill, because of the sincerity of their remarks.

Our new member, the Honour able Member from Cypress, what can we say other than how welcome she is to this House, and I am sure she brings to this Chamber the dignity and the sincerity of purpose and she will fulfill that position with all that dignity, and so I congratulate her. Mr. Sp·eaker, I would like to refer very, very briefly to the constituency which I have the honour to represent. I have a purpose in so doing.

I would like to just mention that the area of Brooklands is continuing to show marked progress, particularly so in laying out areas of indus try which they are in the progress of not only attracting, but with in:lications of many of them being located there. I refer now to the area of St. James, of which a good

part I have the Page 184 February 23rd, 1961

(Mr . . Johnson, cont1d. ). • . . • pleasure of representing, particularly for one reason. There has been much talk, many meetings with regards to the new bridge, or the possibility shall I say, of a new bridge being built at Madison Street. I must say, Mr. Speaker, that here in my way of thinking -- and I've been on many comm ittees regarding this -- that here is a case where, when the Polo Park shopping area was planned, brought into execution the overpass at the C. P. R. track at St.

Joseph's Boys and Girls Hostel, that when that overpass was built then was the time to consider the extending of the bridge across the Assiniboine River. True enough, it would have meant perhaps, no doubt, large sums of money to cut the land up with the proposed route further on. But today, Mr.

Speaker, with the new bridge now being proposed at Madison Street, we'll have the case of two bridges very close to one another, and I think that while from an engineer ing standpoint, perhaps, at this late date it must take place there, but here again is one point where, and I refer again to Polo Park, that when that development was being planned no thought at all, other than Madison Street or further west, was given to the removal of traffic from Por tage Avenue across the Assiniboine south, while at the same time further west the City of St.

James .did leave or provide Moray Street for a bridge across the river to Haney in the south, Charleswood, and that here with that proposal that now seems to be relegated to the bottom of the list at least, to me here would be the proper place to have followed with the bridge at Polo Park crossing and the one on Moray Street. Why I mention this is because to have two traffic bridges side by side in an area the distance from Maryland Street west to St.

James, a distance of approximately five miles, and then you go from there to the perimeter before you hit another crossing, seems to me to -- when this bridge, if lt comes into being at Madison Street, while relieving some of the congestion, will in the future add to greater congestion, and I'll make that prophesy that in five years after this bridge is built we will be up against it again and have to go further west to put up another bridge. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to remark -- bring to the attention of the House, the remarkable growth that has taken place in that area of Assiniboia known as Kirkfield Park. I don't have to mention figures, perhaps, but I would like to say that they will have and they have had improvements made, and planned, sewers that are being put in, where by the end of this fall they will have upwards at least of six hundred new homes. As a matter of fact they are busy now digging out basements. There's one other point that I would like to mention at this time and that is in regard to our municipal council.

I wonder if we give enough thought to the time that many of our munici pal authorities spend in the many meetings that they have to attend. I can give you the figures of one area where the mayor attended over two hundred meetings last year. I'm not going to dwell on this but I do say this, that being a member of a municipal council or mayor in the majo rity of municipal counc ils, the remuneration that they receive is such that the work they do must certainly be a labour of love, and those gentlemen deserve a lot of credit. The Leader of the Opposition in his speech referred to Metro.

I would like to refer to it also. I would like to first say that I am myself a little disappointed and somewhat surprised at some of the things that have happened since the appointment of Metro officers and the elected officers. Now I do not wish to be misunderstood. I am in favour of Metro, but I do feel that those whose responsibility now is of running the Metro government did act a little too fast, shall we say, did assess the value of appointments a little perhaps too high. I am not disputing the fact that the positions are not perhaps worth the salaries given.

But I do think that the Metro authorities would perhaps have been well advised had they taken perhaps say the minimum and left themselves open to adjust these salaries perhaps to the maximum, if that is what they say now, or are giving now, in the next four or flve years. Now I do not wish to be misunder stood. The difference between perhaps what they might have considered as the minimum and now they're getting the maximum would, of course, have very little effect tax-wise or mlll wise or mill-rate-wise on the Metro ratepayers, very, very little.

But it did tend to the vast majority of the people in the Metro area, it did tend to perhaps not undermine, but it did tend to lose a little faith in Metro government by this action plus the action of going a little too fast. Now Metro, Mr. Speaker, of course is getting a lot of criticism at the present time and it's unjustified. The conception of Metro was never expected to be of immediate benefit in a mater ial way to any municipality, because it's a long range view, and we all know it. I will not take up the time of the House on that.

But I would like to say this, that Metro has got to be looked February 23rd, 1961 Page 185

(Mr. Johnson, cont'd. ) ...•. at and I'm trying to say this because· there's many people, and I have many letters on it also, co mplaining about Metro who previously were in favour of it. But I would say to those people who now criticize Metro, this : it is all too common a mistake to fix one's gaze upon a near horizon and refuse to believe that anything of value lies beyond. It is all too comm on a mi stake to measure achievement by present standards and to think in terms of finality. Th at's what's happening today with a lot of the criticism being directed at Metro.

I am quite sure that as the years unfold themselves in the future the benefits of Metro wlll be of such a nature that they will then have changed the thinking of many people, because anyone in this Chamber who travels to any extent to the south of us, in some of the large cities, and sees what is the hopeless mess they're in because of lack of planning alone, where the spending of millions to correct the mistakes of the past -- and I might say that I was very for tunate in having a recent visit to the south and I find that some of the -- due to the non-planning of the presidents in office,., ..... .. ......... in office, that some of their roads today are cost- ing up to a million dollars a mile, so that let us proceed and give a little credit to Metro even though they may have erred, in my opinion, in one or two things.

Now there's one more item, Mr. Speaker. The City of Winnipeg are engaged and have been for quite some time to their credit, with the incidence of slum clearance, and they are to be given credit for this action. But it has always occurred to me, and I say this particularly because I've had some experience in council, it has always occurred to me that municipal authorities should see to it as part of their res ponsibility from time to time that slum areas are not allowed to come into being. The time to cure anything is the instance when it arrives .

Today, because of the fact that these areas now exist and certainly must be cleared, the Pro vincial Government is being asked to contribute subst antially towards this clearance - whether they will I have no .idea -- but if they do, that means that every ratepayer in the Province of Manitoba, rural, metrowise, will have to assist to take

part in it financially. I am not criti cizing the present Mayor or Council of Winnip•ag -- they deserve a lot of credit, the present Mayor particularly ; he's made it a p::>int ever since being elected to his office -- nor do I blame preceding municipal authorities, but surely, surely we should imm ediately, and I hope that Metro Council sees to it that from now on in their area of their control, sees to it that these slum areas are never allowed to come into being or to exist at any time.

Let us cure it from the start and not carry it on to where the point is reached when every one of us, every person that would call hims elf a Manitoban would be ashamed. And while I am on that, Mr. Sp·aaker, I must make a few remarks regarding the demands today there are being made upon the Provincial Government. Now I'm not saying just this government.

I know my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition, when he was in power, had demands continually also, but I do say this , that dennnds from organizations, municipali ties, from all areas of gatherings or those in any organization come to the Provincial Govern ment -- "T hey should so this ; we got to have that" -- well, I'm not saying that some of them aren't justified and quite worthy, maybe all of them are, but I do say this, that more thought to those people who are mak ing demands to the fact that they should realize that every demand made for financial assist ance must come from the ratepayers of the province as a whole, and I think that it is time more thought should be given by these people making den:a nds.

I think they should study and realize that they're not doing too good a service to their fellow citizens when they make these demands. If there are some organizations that cannot live by their own then they'd better turn away for the time being until such time as they can. I think it is time that the Provincial Government is relieved or is not put in the position of having to say - "No, we can't do it. ", but certai nly they can't. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition -- as I've said before, I am very in terested in speeches and I enjoy them all, particularly those that are made by men who have served long in this House and who speak with knowledge of rules and procedure. I, of course, was disappointed in his criticism of this government.

Practically all, if not all destructive, void of any constructive critic ism, and I could not help but think of that little story that perhaps all of you had -- I must tell it -- about the little lad that was lying on the floor reading the comics while his· dad sat in his favorite chair reading the evening paper, and the little lad shortly looked up to his dad and said, "Da d, " he said, ''What is a demigod?". And his dad after a moment's hes itation replied, "So n, " he said, "A demigod is a person who rocks the Page 186 February 23rd, 1961

(Mr. Johnson, cont'd. ) .• •.. boat, then tries to make everybody believe there is a storm rag ing. ". Well, that's what I got out of it. If there is any storm be ing raged, it is a storm of plenty, it is action in every departme nt of this government and many words have been spoken of it in this House -- it would be repetitious for me to mention them again -- but I want to say that I am with those statem ents because in every department of government is clear evidence of what is going on.

Cer tainly the workings and the progress made by the present administra tion is one of a government and a leader who has vision, faith and courage, because after all it takes courage to step into the things , the workings of this government. I don't need to men tion the m, of education, roads -- much has been said on roads , but Pm going to tell you we are getting some good roads ; get out in the province and drive on the m.

There 's just one point that ..•...... .• point to be raised here, and that is on crop in surance, and I want to say this; in my humble opinion, if the farmers of the Province of Mani toba are looking forward to a sense of economic security, they will fully co-operate with this government who now have gone into this cautiously, and let us be sure and certain that they remai n just that way, and that as each step is taken it is taken on grounds of basis that will be sound and that in a few years we will have a crop insurance plan that will be of the benefit to all the rural people, because Pm one of those who must say that, economica lly speaki ng, when things are not good in the rural areas , they 're not so good in the urban areas.

Mr . Speaker, I was very pleased to hear the Premier the other night in his remarks solicit, if you will, sug gesti ons from the folks on the opposite side of this House in regards to future planning. It is good to hear our First Minister state in a tone of willingness to listen to constructive criticism of which up to the present we haven't had any. Now, Mr. Speaker, I must first congratulate the Leader of the CCF Party on attaining the office of leadership in the province of that party.

But I must pass a remark or two on the , shall I say, the com ing wedding some time this summer, and I know my honourable friends of the CCF Party are certa inly looking forward to it, but you know , Mr. Speaker, it is generally at these affairs that we can e xpect later on to be told of a blessed event. Well, at this wedding we are going to have a blessed event in the matter of hours, that is when they take upon the m selves a new name. Now I know that's like Cupid; they are wooing, they are doing everything they can to attract, shall we say, a best man to stand up at the wedding with them.

I refe r to the farmers. As yet this wedding will take place without a best man and will be unattended other than the two parties.

And in my humble opinion I must say this , to a party that is dimin ishing, a party who generally speaking has reached new depths , a party who just as recen tly as yes terday , I hear, lost another seat in the province to the west of us, so I do believe that the CCF Party and I ••....•.....•. quite a bit, that they're a very lucky organization, and how they poss ibly can attract -- I say this sincerely -- how they can poss ibly attract organized labour is som ething I can't understand.

And I'll tell you why, because I am lOO% labour and I don't mind telling you I had a part to organizations bringing into being perhaps the first clerks ' union in this city, pro vince and in the Dominion as far as that goes I believe, but let me tell you, we're all in favour of organized labour, you bet we are, and I think that organized labour has come a long way since Confederation, and they have come that distance and made those gains under either a Liberal or a Conservative Party and I venture to say that if any further gains are made that they will continue to be made under one of the two old parties who will rule this Dominion for many years.

Now I also want to say this, because I have put my time in, part of it, on a farm, owned one and operated it, and how anyone, any farmer, who according to the rules of you of the CCF mu:st be capitalists, because they are their own entity, they run their -- they borrow, they rai.se their crops , they have no part of an idealism such as the CCF Party. I can't see it, for their own good, and I would go so far as to say this , that time will te ll , the years will tell what happens to the CCF Party and to organized labour who I think are making a terrific mistake.

I want to see them rfi@Gncile themselves, one to another, particularly Labour to the rural parts of our province; I want: to see this happen, satisfactorily, but it's not going to, my friends . It just will not work. Now, please don't misu nderstand me on this. I do not give the critic is m to the CCF Party because I think they have served a wonderful purpose and they have played a part, if you will, in our economy. Certainly they have, but I- - now, at the ir demise insofar as name is concerned, they pass into the oblivion, and they now take upon themse lves a new Fe�bruary 23rd, 1961 Page 187

(Mr. Johnson, cont'd. ) .•. •• life. Well, if I had been one in this House for many years I am quite sure that I would be tempted tc sa y, "Beware upon the ground you tread.

", because I feel quite sure that for the good of agriculture, for the good of all parts of our economy, the action must be taken towards whatever party is . • • . . . • . . . . the government federally-w ise, that is the seat of which any group should work, with either one party or the other I'll grant you, but remember one thing, that he who pays the fiddler is going tc call the tune, and I refer tc Labour· and they must, surely the rank and file of our labour unions must say tc themselves, "Well wait, we're doing the financing, where do we go from here ?" .

Anci it's going tc be in teresting as time unfolds itself and this New Party is brought lntc existence, the part that the Leader of the CCL , Mr. Joudoin, he plays in the inner offices of this New Party. Those things will unfold tc us and I expect tc see it very shortly. Now, Mr. Speaker, I wish to just finish on this tcne. There comes a time tc men like me, who find it somewhat tl ifficult to put into words the feelings that you have, but I wish tc express my feelings at the present time in this way, that this party of few join in the many.

One must stop and think of the words of Sir Winstcn Churchill and which we must transpose, because in my opinion there never was a time in the political history of anyone where so few owed so much tc so many, and that's what it will be. Mr.

Speaker, in closing I would just like to say this ; that the Province of Manitoba at the present time perhaps has never been able to look tc the future with as great a degree of confidence in our economic life and the life of all concerned as they can at the present time, and as I am sure the vast majority of them do under the present administration, of whom I am quite sure, Sir, will be in office for many years. Thank you. MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): If the honourable member would permit a question?

Does he know that the City of Winnipeg up tc this time is the only major city in Canada that has not taken advantage of the federal-provincial slum clearance, that they could have got money from the federal and provincial government, Winnipeg is the only city. Did you know that? MR. JOHNSON: What do you mean -- it hasn't taken advantage? Well why haven't they? Why haven't they? That's up to them. MR. SCARTH: Mr.

Speaker, the official opposition have offered an amendment to the Throne Speech and up till the time of going tc press now, they haven't come across or come up with anything whatsoever in support of that amendment. They may come up yet; yes, they may be keeping their ammunition in the dark and holding back, but I hope it comes or it's going to fizzle out fast.

Like the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell, Sir, I always look forward to a speech from so em inent a personage as the Leader of the Opposition and if my count serves me right there are 33 members in this Asse mbly at the present time with less than three years ' service. We therefore look forward to these spee ches of the experienced. In this particular instance, Mr. Speaker, I must express just a little disappointment, because after all when the speech did come up, nothing of any constructive nature was saggested that I could detect, and that still stands, even after several speeches in sequence.

And, Sir, there is one more com ment in regard to the Honourable Leader, on a subject on which I'll tcuch just in a few minutes more spec ifically, and that is , the press have it and so forth, that he would give proof or resign. Now it would be very disappo inting tc me if the honourable member should resign from this House, because, Sir, I admit that he is a most intelligent man and, Slr, in telligency is a very rare gift amongst the opposition groups. Something -- no names men tioned.

There are a couple of exceptions, but much of this, of the thoughts which I just men tioned have been expressed by very able leaders and when one follows speakers like the First Minister, the Honourable Member for St. Matthews, and even some of the people across the road there, you feel a little timid about the amateur stepping in. However, I do want to com ment upon the speech of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition on Page 20 where, at the top of the page, where he hammers on high taxes. Now anybody in this House knows that the administration could cut down on expenditures.

Yes, they could do away with the, we' ll say the flood protection; they could cut agriculture estimates; they could cut roads; they could cut something off various departments, but is the Honourable Leader of the Opposition serious that any aministration should do that at the present time? Sir, let us just go back tc when President Roosevelt was inaugurated in 1933, January 21st I think the date was. Times were most difficult. Did he start cutting down on expenditures ? No; he, on the other hand, started Page 188 February 23rd, 1961

I I I I. (Mr. Scarth, cont1 d. ) ..... to spend money, and he spent it freely, and in a matter of a very few weeks you could feel the situation, the tempo increase in the United States. Money was free and they started to go some place. And, Sir, I say this , that anybody who suggests that the government cut expenditures to the quick these days either is away out of time or else he is an optimist if he thinks the people of Manitoba would stand for a big cut in these much-needed ex penditure s.

Them again if you want to go on just a little lower on the same page of the honourable member's address, the Honourable Leader's address, you'll find that he is really pitching in to us on the unemployment si tuation. Now may I ask the Honourable-Leader to suggest to the House just what he would do to alleviate the unem ployment situation and how would he do it wi thout spending money? Now perhaps he has the answer, but I'd like to hear him come up with it. The honourable gentleman has further suggested that we're p:tying exorbitant interest rates.

Perhaps at a later date he could give us a detail of what he means in that regard. In dustry and Commerce, Sir; again the Liberal Party is just a little bit behind the time s if the Honourable Leader's address reflected their thinking . Some few weeks ago, and before this Legisla ture was sitting , I happened to be talking to the manager of a big real estate company in Winnipeg, and lest the honourable oppos ition misunderstand, this manager of the real estate company happened to be a fine chap but still a misguided Liberal, so there was no politics in the deal.

He stated that house prices and the sale of busines ses, that is what could be recovered by the sale of busin esses, was better in Winnipeg and in Calgary than in any other part of the Dom inion. Well, Sir, maybe the government has nothing to do wit h that, but I'll say one thing , that there must be managem ent some place when Winnipeg is the topmost city in the whole of Canada in respect to houses maintaining or taking a less loss in value than any place else and businesses taking a less loss in sales value than any place else.

Now, Sir, there 's one more point I would like to draw upon briefly -- a lot has been said about it -- but I refer to the Honourable Leader's speech given on February 16th, the bottom of page 23 and top of page 24, in regard to the road program. In speaking of the road program at the top of page 24, "It's still being used for patronage,' it's still being used for election bribes and threats . Mr.

Speaker, these are strong words , very strong words , and I mean them and anybody who makes charges as serious as that should be prepared to back them up, and I am, and I wo•lld like my honourable friend, the Minister, to ask me to back them up. I am prepared to; I am anxious to. "· I would say this, Mr. Speaker, that although he's been challenged upon several times, the Honourable Leader has not backed up his statements yet, and let us just see what he has said.

Briber y, or bribe, as defined by Webster's Dicti onary, is as follows: A price, reward, gift or favor, bestowed or promised, with a view to pervert the judgment or currupt the conduct of a person in the pos ition of a trust and bribery, act or practice of giv ing or taking a bribe. When one accuses somebody in the governmen t of bribery, Sir, then he should be able to back it up and as again, he is invited now to back up what he has said in that regard. I thank you, Sir. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, on this occasi on and entering into this traditional debate, I would wish to pay my res pects to you, Sir, knowing as we all do that there reposes in your keepi ng the great traditions of parliament which guard so many valuable things such as free dom and the fair treatment of minorities in the House and other matters of great value to us in our democratic society. I think, Sir, that you have demonstrated in your own person those qualities which make yo:1 an em inently satisfactory speaker and a wo rthy guardian of those values for us.

I congratulate and welco::ne the new member for Pembina who is an old friend of mine from years back when we knew, of course, herself and her husband together, and I know that she will carry on in a very wort hy way in this Chamber. I congratulate also the mover and seconder of the Reply to the Addre ss from the Throne, the Honourable Member for Arthur and the Honourable Member for Cypress, and add my words of congratulation to them, words which have been expressed so well and often in this debate.

I think I should refer to the remarks of the Honourable the Leader of the Oppos ition, when he introduced his motion of non confidence, and refer particularly on this occas ion to two matters. He said, when we intro duced the question of the committee on Manitob a's economic future, the words which have been recalled to him in this Chamber a number of times since, ''What, not another study", and seemed to pour scorn upon the idea of holding just another study and in tima ted that these February 23rd, 1961 Page 189 I J

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) ..• .• studies were not leading to action. I assure the honourable mem ber that the whole program of the Department of Industry and Comme rce has been one of getting the department out of the ivory tower in which his administration left it, and down into the busi ness street wi th the people, to be of some practical help in creating jobs. I cons ider the entire object of the Department of Industry and Commerce to be one of a very practical program of creating jobs.

I think the term, economic expansion, or industrial development, or terms of a like character, can all be translated into such phrases as the crea tion of new jobs in Manitoba, the maintenance of steady pay packets for those people with the security that goes with it. We have been making studies, and we have been making studies successfully, and we have been making studies that have led to action. I'll mention two of these by way of illustration. We made a study that ended in the acquisition for Manitoba of the supply of the DEW line. This started as a pure study.

We said how can we attract to Manitoba two things , something in cc;mnection with the supply of materials for Canada's defence program, because we hare not had a proportionate share in this province of that kind of material because until now we have lacked the manufacturing capacity to do it, and another thing we wanted to do was to strengthen the air busines.s in Manitoba, which is now in some danger of declining be cause the projected removal from Manitoba of the repair facilities of the Trans-Ca nada Air lines.

And so we looked at the question of the DEW line supply, the contract for which would come due to be renewed, and it seemed to us that there was the theoretical possi bility at least that by supplying by rail to Churchill and flying from there on that a cons iderable savi ng could be made for the American Air Force who are the principal contractors in this connection, and we went to work to study that. We enquired, we made representations and we were told on all hands, "No, this cannot be done; this has been looked at; this is not practica l. "· Then we be gan to study more deeply.

We enlisted in our study not only the staff of the Department of Industry and Commerc e, but also had great co-opera tion from the Canadian National Railways and from a number of other agencies. I need hardly tell you, Mr. Speaker, that that contract has been secured for Manitoba.

They will purchase goods for the supply of the DEW llne to be supplied through Winnipeg, instead of as at present, through Montreal and Edmonton, to a value of some $28, 000, 000 annually, and I would like to attract the attention of the farmer mem bers of this Legislature to the extent to which agriculture itself, presumably in Manitoba wlll benefit, because they spend about a mill ion and a half dollars a year for food to supply the DEW line, and in one month as has been revealed in the press quite recently, the following will be some of the food items which wlll be supplied to the DEW line through Manitoba and available for tender on behalf of people in business in Manitoba: One ton of bacon, 2 tons of ham, 3, 000 dozen eggs , 2 tons of pork, 5 tons of beef, 2 1/2 tons of poultry, 2 tons of butter, 9 kinds of cheese, 9 kinds of fish, 15 varieties of frozen foods and vegetables, 12 tons of fresh fruit and vegetables, and when the supply of the DEW line supply operation is transferred to Winnipeg about July 1st of this year, it will be because we carrled out just another study, just another study.

This is another study which will result not only in a supply base here-in Winnipeg, creati ng about 100 jobs, but a great strength to the air industry of Manitoba, further employ ment in Churchill, and a market sorely needed for the farmers of the province of the ki nd and the extent that I have indicated in those particular amounts. Another study was undertaken; a study, the second of which I mention now, and there are dozens of others which I will not take the time to enumerate, but which I will be glad to outline at a later stage, probably in estimates . Another study was undertaken in south-east Manitoba.

Here was an area where not only were the people lacki ng the extent of income we would wish them to have, but the very resources upon which that income was based were declining. We found there was too little pine, there was too little spruce. We were not able; if we were to preserve the very forests themselves, we were not able to continue the rate of cutting that had been allowed in the past and it must, in fact, be reduced.

We found, however, there was pop lar, so we studied the matter; we studied what to do about this, too little of the kinds of wood that were being used, too much of another kind of wood; let's study it and see what can be done. The result of the study was, that a flake board plant would be practical down there utilizing poplar. This was the result of a pure theoretical study which started with certain objects in mind and achieved them.

I also hardly need to remind the House at this stage that there is building at the present time at Sprague in south-east Manitoba, the plant of the Columbia Page 190 February 23rd, 1961

(Mr. Evans , cont'd. } .••.. Hardboard Compa ny Lim ited of Seattle, which plant will cost $3 ,0 00, 000, will emp loy 75 people in the plant itself, 75 further people for part-time work in the woods , and construction is underway at the pres ent time. Another result of a study, having in mind this very practical objective of the whol e departm ent, the creation of jobs for Manitoba people. Well, we believe in studies and we believe that they must be practical, and we have de monstrated that they can be and the object of all our work is the practical r1esults which can follow in the form of jobs.

Some of the objectives of the studies will, of course, be nearby objectives, the DEW line and the south-east Manitoba studies were nearby objectives. Some of the other objectives, however , must be more distant objectives because some provinces ln the fores eeable future will outpace other provinces in Canada in the rate of economic develop ment and in the degree of prosperity that they achieve.

Our objective is to have Manitoba among the leaders, Manitoba among the more pros perous provinces of Canada, and to that end we have been studying the fundamental factors which underly the province and which will sup port it in the years to come. The present trend and the trend that has been in evidence in Manitoba for some time, has been a trend toward a slower developme nt in Manitoba than ln the average of the rest of the country. This nee:ls se rious attention. I would attract the attention of the House to a very few figures which I think pinpoint or illustrate the problem with which we are faced.

There is forecast by 1970 in Manitoba, a population of perhaps a mi llion and 32 thousand people, if we retain all our natural increase, but not taking into account any imm igra tion into the province. The work force from such a population would probably be about 375, 000 people. The jobs, if the trend from 1949 to 1959 is continued that will be available in industry, may amount to 280 ,0 00 jobs.

There may be on farms a further 56, 000 jobs in agri cultural work, mak ing a total of 336, 000 jobs to make do ·.vit h a work force of 375, 000 people or a shortage of jobs in the neighborhood of 39, '000 jobs in 1970 based on those assump tions . Now, no one knows better than I do that any assum ptions of that kind may be st:bject to varia tion, may be subject to changes.

Nevertheless they are reasonable assum ptions to make at the present time and they challenge us and we say that we must study a si tuation which appears to be serious ; we must try to find solutions for it, because the job shortage, as I have illustrated in those figures, mi ght run from say 8. 8% of t he workforce to a high at the sea sonal low of almost 22% of the labour force. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister permit a question ? MR . EVANS: Why certainly. MR .

PAULLEY: In view of the forecast of an 8. 8% jobless in 1970, does he think that the Province of Manitoba should agree with the latest proposal of the Premier of Canada for Manitoba to collect its own income tax? MR. EVANS: Well I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the honourable gentleman has introduced a completely new thought that is outside my pres ent trend of thought. I should be glad to dis cuss this with him at another time or on another subject. I think I would like to correct him in saying that I forecast these - that there wi ll be that amount of unem ployment in 197 0.

I said based on these ass umpt ions with no imm igration, if we are to retain our entire population, those would in fact be the figures. We have had a history in the province, of course, of export ing people highly trained, well-trained people from the province, and so it could not be said that I am forecasting an actual unemployment figure of that percentage in 197 0.

Well , this presents an unsatisfactory si tuation or an indication of an unsatisfactory si tuation for 1970 which will undoubtedly lead as it has led in the past to the emigration from the province of considerable numbers of people, particularly in the age group of 20 to 44 who are the trained people, seeki ng new em ployment elsewhere . These are the educated, the skilled, the vigorous people, who can do most to build up our provinc e.

A second disadvantage will be that if these trends as I have indicated them were to come about, there would take place a further aging of the province, that is, the average age of people li ving in the province would continue to grow older as it has been. From 1959 the people in the age groups from no years to 15 years, that is to say, those in the schools, and those from 65 and over grew four times as fast, four times the rate of the labour force, that is, the numbers ln those age groups grew four times as fast as the labour force group, and

whereas that figure compares with the normal rate of twice as fast in the country as a whole, so that from that indication the average age of the February 23rd, 196 1 Page 191

(Mr. Evans, cont'd. ) ..•.• population in Manitoba is getting older at a faster rate than the average for the country. Well quite obviously the need then is for new jobs, and that is the object in the operations of the Department of Industry and Commerce as it is for the whole government. The growth rate that is required to supply the number of new jobs required may be described as follows. The rate has been increas ing at about 1. 1% annually, 1. 1% of the work force annually.

From now on until 1970 to overcome the situation it would require an in crease of 1. 7% in the number of jobs annually, and it should be underst ood of course that those figures would be progressive so that it's 1. 1% each succeeding year on the total of the year previous. That's a technical point that sometimes can amount to fairly large figures. That is not an unattainable object. It can be brought within reach, it's our belief. It wlll take a great effort to do it, but I don't think the proportions are so large that we cannot attempt it with good hope that it can be achieved.

Coincident with this, of course, we need an increase in capi tal. From 1946 to !959 the increase in capital in the province amounted to 7. 3% yearly. To achieve the objects that we require we believe the increase from now on must be about 11. 3% yearly. -- (Interjec tion) --'-I'd be glad to. That from 1946 to 1959 the increase of capital employed in industry in the province was 7. 3% yearly and to achieve the object we re quire by 1970, that is to employ an actual increase of the province, would require an annual increase from now on of 11. 3%.

It is our belief and most emphatically that this is a job which cannot be achieved by this government alone. As a matter of fact, we don't think that very much can be achieved by government alone. We believe that it is our object to assist within certain fields where we may have ability, where we may have technical assis tance that we can bring to those engaged in business, to those engaged in production, but that the main job and the great impetus and the great drive and the great ingenuity must come from thos e engaged in business and engaged in production.

We believe that we can invite into a great organization representatives of labour and of management, of education, of finance and of other qualified communities within the Province of Manitoba to tackle this problem, to study it, and we make no apologies for that word, study it with the object of coming up with practical solutions which will help to achieve the objects that we have in mind by 1970. Well, this will be a long-range em ployment study for the Province of Manitoba.

The Federal Government has its inter-department commi ttee studying the matter of em ployment in Canada; the Senate special commi ttee is studying this problem; Ontario, I understand, is considering a Royal Commiss ion to study the questions of employment in Ontario, and many of these studies will be concerned with the im mediate problems. We are studying the immediate problems to see what we can do but we propose to go further. We propose to study the more distant future with our eyes at least on 1970. Well, we have a good precedent for this.

An Order-in-Council will be issued to set up the comm ittee on Manitoba's economic future, and it will be no surprise to the House that we used ....• .•.....•.... as a model, a very good idea which was created by the previous administration here and that was the commi ttee - and I'll get the title exactly right - the Adviso::-y Comm ittee on Co-ordination of the Post-war Planning, which was cre:J.ted by an Order-in-Council in 1944. I don't know why my honourable friend considers that that comm ittee in 1944 was a much better idea than the one we

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-3-9
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 3rd hansardpdf 9.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5f54cc43dcf4f24161e71b4973a0f0e893bbb9df

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