British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, May 26, 2011 (39th Parliament, 3rd Session) (H0526am-02) (H0526am 02)

H0526am-02

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 39th Parliament official rePort of Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari Soff, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Thursday, May 26, 2011 Morning Sitting Volume 23, Number 2

Pro Vince of britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l.

Point, obc Third Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker of the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil .............................................................................................................. h on. c hristy c lark Deputy Premier and Minister of finance ............................................................................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation ...........................................................................................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of a dvanced e ducation .................................................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Minister of a griculture ........................................................................................................................................................... h on.

Don Mcr ae a ttorney General ........................................................................................................................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc Minister of c hildren and f amily Development ................................................................................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of c ommunity, Sport and cultural Development .................................................................................................. h on. ida c hong Minister of e ducation .........................................................................................................................................................h on.

George a bbott Minister of energy and Mines and Minister r esponsible for h ousing.........................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of environment ....................................................................................................................................................h on. Dr. t erry l ake Minister of f orests, l ands and n atural r esource o perations......................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson Minister of h ealth .................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of Jobs, t ourism and innovation ................................................................................................................................... h on. Pat bell Minister of l abour, citizens' Services and o pen Government .............................................................................. h on.

Stephanie c adieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond Minister of Social Development and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism ............................................................ h on. h arry bloy Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ................................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ......................................................................................................................................................a drian Dix Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker ..................................................................................................................................................................Dawn black Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole ...................................................................................................................................Douglas h orne c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ............................................................................................................... craig h.

James (on leave) c lerk a ssistant and a cting c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................. k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms ................................................................................................................................................................................. Gary l enz

alP habetical liS t of MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, bill (l) .............................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, iain (l) .............................................................. Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h on. h arry (l) ............................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-fleetwood c adieux, h on. Stephanie (l) ................................................Surrey-Panorama c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c handra h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ................................Vancouver–West end c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, Murray (l) ..............................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ........................................... f ort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) ..............................................................

Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on. Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington f alcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale f arnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake f oster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee f raser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, c olin (l) ............................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, r andy (l) ............................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, k ash (l) ................................................................ Vancouver-fraserview h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de f uca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, kevin (l) ............................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, h on. Dr. t erry (l) .....................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................f raser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (l) ......................................... Vancouver-fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on. Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–f alse creek Mcr ae, h on.

Don (l) ................................................................... c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry, Qc (l) ....................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (ind.) .....................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, ben (l) ..................................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, Dr. Moira (l) ......................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon.

Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, John (l) .......................................................................r ichmond-Steveston Vacant ...............................................................................Vancouver–Point Grey liS t of MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .......................................................................r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ......................................................h on.

Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott f raser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ...................................................................h on. h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope .......................................................... h on. barry Penner, Qc c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley...........................................................................h on. Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis f ort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman f raser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de f uca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson ............................................ h on.

Dr. t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ...................................................... k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast ....................................................................................bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike f arnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam ...................................................................... iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston ..............................................................................John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands .....................................................

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on.

George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine ........................................................................................Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin f alcon Surrey-fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ........................................................ h on.

Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ........................................................................... Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-fairview ................................................ Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–f alse creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-fraserview ........................................................................k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara .................................................................Dr.

Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ..........................................Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ...............................................................................Vacant Vancouver-Quilchena ................................................................... c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ...............................................Spencer c handra h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric f oster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna .............................................................................ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 48; n ew Democratic 34; independent 2; Vacant 1

CONTENTS Thursday, May 26, 2011 Morning Sitting Page Orders of the Day Second r eading of bills .......................................................................................................................................................... 7439 bill 12 — Police (i ndependent investigations office) a mendment a ct, 2011 h on. S. bond k. c orrigan D. barnett l. k rog r . h oward S.

Simpson J. r ustad c. t revena D. h ayer J. kwan Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 7453 e stimates: Ministry of h ealth (continued) M. f arnworth G. Gentner l. Popha m h on. M. de Jong r . c houhan c. Jame s

7439 thurSD a Y , MaY 26, 2011 The h ouse met at 10:02 a.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Prayers. Orders of the Day Hon. B. Penner: in this h ouse i call second reading of bill 12, Police (i ndependent investigations office) a mendment a ct, 2011, and in the little h ouse, the Douglas f ir c ommittee r oom, i call continued estimates debate for the Ministry of h ealth. Second Reading of Bills bill 12 — Police (inD eP enD ent in Ve Sti Gation S o ffice) aMenDMent a ct, 2011 Hon. S. Bond: i move that the bill be now read a second time.

This legislation fulfils our commitment to respond to the recommendations made by the braidwood inquiry to establish an independent investigation office to investigate serious incidents involving both the municipal police and the rc MP . our legislation not only builds on the models in other jurisdictions, such as ontario and a lberta, but it sets a new standard for civilian-led police investigation and for accountability.

This historic change has the support of Justice Thomas braidwood, whose commission into the death of r obert Dziekanski recommended creating an independent inves- tigation office, as well as the province's most senior municipal police and rcMP leaders.

This support is the immediate result our government sought following months of careful drafting and working to get this legislation right. [D. h orne in the chair.] but we have a much greater long-term goal. in time we believe that setting a new standard for civilian-led police investigation and accountability will strengthen the pub- lic's faith in the dedicated officers working to keep them safe. o ur landmark legislation changes the investigative approach to be more transparent, accountable and fair to citizens and to officers under investigation alike. [1005] a s the lead investigative agency in cases under its man- date, the iio will conduct criminal investigations, interview witnesses and gather evidence. if, after an investigation is concluded, the chief civilian director considers that an officer may have committed a criminal offence, the director will report the matter to c rown counsel for review and charge assessment.

The new office will be led by a civilian who has never served as a police officer and will be developed as a fully civilian unit. The office will be accountable to the Ministry of a ttorney General. The scope of iio investigations will encompass not only police-related incidents involving death or serious harm but also other offences against individuals, and offences that undermine public confidence in policing. These will be set out in regulation. in addition, we need to make sure that we strike the right balance between appropriate expertise and civilian oversight when it comes to the investigations themselves.

We want to make sure that the civilian perspective is there, but we also must ensure that where an officer is not charged, the reason is not due to a lack of investigative experience or expertise. c onsequently, we have followed Justice braidwood's recommendation whereby investigators themselves could be civilians or they could be former police officers, provided that they have not served in british c olumbia in the preceding five years from the time of their appointment. We are further committed to ensuring the success and impact that this office will have.

Thus, we have built in a review of the administration and general administration of the office by a special committee of the l egislature by January 2015. The special committee will examine the effectiveness of this office and its progression towards an entirely civilian staff. ensuring public confidence is the goal of this ground- breaking aspect of our legislation. f or example, the o ffice of the Police c omplaint c ommissioner will oversee the iio investigators who will be conducting criminal investigations.

We want to ensure that these investigators will be subject to the high standard of conduct and investigative standards in the Police a ct. The Police c omplaint c ommissioner has the expertise to deal with such complaints and investigate the investigators, as necessary. f or additional oversight, the chief civilian director can appoint a civilian monitor where needed. The mon- itor will be free to raise concerns to the office's director about the integrity of an investigation and submit a final report within 30 days.

While this is another step beyond Justice braidwood's recommendations, it reflects the central goal of maximizing the independence of all the facets of the iio in both perception and practice.

The significance of the change in approach represented by our independent investigation office legislation cannot be overstated. l ed and monitored by qualified civilians, and with its investigators' conduct overseen by the independ- ent Police c omplaint c ommissioner, this office will represent unprecedented steps toward investigations that are fair and yet entirely removed from the police forces under their scope. u ltimately, individual police

british c olumbia Debates7440 t hursday, May 26, 2011 officers must earn and maintain the confidence of british c olumbians, and our government is proud to support them in doing so. in closing, we believe that this legislation creates one of the most civilian-based police oversight models in the country, and thus will help further public confidence in policing in british c olumbia. K.

Corrigan: i am the designated speaker on bill 12. i am pleased to rise on bill 12, the Police (i ndependent investigations office) a mendment a ct, 2011. i think this is an important bill, and we have many speakers to - day who want to speak on it, because we all do recognize the importance of the bill. We are supportive of the bill, but we have some concerns about it as well. [1010] one of my main concerns is a bit of a peripheral con - cern, but it certainly impacts my ability to respond and to fully consider the bill.

That is the fact that since last June we have sat for four days in f ebruary and for just over a month or so through May and a few days in a pril. i count it to be certainly less than 30 days that we're sit - ting in the whole of the last year. We had this bill introduced last week, and we're hav - ing second reading today. t o me it means that for a bill that is as important as this — and it is truly an important bill to discuss — we don't have the time to discuss it. We don't have the time to fully consider it. Very importantly, as well, we don't have the time to consult with people.

We've had a chance for an examination of it. We have looked closely at it, but i would have liked to have had a chance to consult with legal scholars. i called some legal scholars last week about it, after the bill was introduced, to ask for some comment on some of the choices that were made in this bill with respect to accountability and other matters. i was met with a great deal of surprise by those various legal scholars on this area. They were very surprised, and they said: "Well, when can we get back to you? c an we get back in a couple of weeks or three weeks?" i said: "n o, i don't think so.

This will all have to be dealt with by the time we finish, which is on June 2." i'll tell you, there was some real surprise at that and at the inability for people to consider what was in this bill and to make thoughtful comment on it and to respond to it. i would have liked to have had their input and had time to consider their input before this bill was debated in this h ouse, but that was impossible.

We sit for about 25 to 30 days. i apologize to the people of british c olumbia for that. i think it's an embarrass - ment to this l egislature and to this institution. it's an embarrassment to democracy, an affront to open and accountable government that we only sit for 25 or 30 days in 12 months and that we are going to have very little time to discuss, consider and debate important legislation like bill 12, which the minister has described.

Y ou know, we are faced, in the opposition, with choices about whether we're going to spend a great deal of time — as much time as we would like — to discuss important legislation like bill 12 or whether we spend a few more hours asking questions on behalf of the taxpayers, the citizens of british c olumbia, about how things are being spent. in the case of the ministry that i am the official oppos- ition critic for, the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General has a budget of around $635 million, not including the money that goes in and out of icbc, which also comes under that ministry.

So we had about an hour for every hundred million dollars of taxpayers' money that is spent to discuss that budget. Those are the difficult choices that we are having to make — whether we spend more time talking about im - portant bills like bill 12 or whether we spend more time in estimates. So i will now have some amount of time to talk about bill 12. i would have also liked to have had more time to discuss this bill with people like Mark and r osemarie Surakka.

Mark and r osemarie Surakka are the parents of l isa Dudley and Guthrie Mck ay, and they are very impacted by this bill and very concerned about it. l isa Dudley and Guthrie Mck ay, as people will probably remember, were the couple that were found with gun - shot wounds in a home in Mission in 2008. They were found four days after they were shot in what police say was a targeted attack. Mr. Mckay was pronounced dead at the scene, but l isa Dudley, who is the daughter of Mark and r osemarie Surakka, was alive four days after she was shot.

She was alive when she was found but died en route to the hospital. [1015] That case is important when we're talking about this bill. in that case the rcMP officer who responded to a 911 call four days earlier, four days before l isa Dudley died, didn't respond to that call. h e did not go and investigate. h e did not go into that home and so did not find l isa Dudley, who died four days later. h e was later reprimanded for disgraceful conduct because he didn't get out of his car to investigate the 911 call. i mention that case because that is a prime example of a case where a family has been devastated and is distraught not only for what happened to their daughter but devas- tated and distraught with the process that they have gone through since she was shot in 2008.

They've been devas- tated by the bureaucracy, devastated and cynical about the process wherein police was investigating itself. if this process had been in place for the Surakkas in 2008, the process that they would have gone through would have been a far different one and perhaps could have taken away some of the pain, the suffering and the anguish that they have gone through as they have dealt with the bureaucracies and been cynical about police in that case investigating themselves. So this is a positive step, but it is very late in coming.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 26, 2011 7441 There's been a lot of concern about how long it's taken. a nd it's not just since Thomas braidwood made his recommendation that there should be an independent investigations office when there are cases where the police are involved in an incident where there is serious harm or where a criminal action was incurred by the police, or death. it's not just since then that we should be concerned. This goes back years. i think some of my colleagues will, in addition, talk about the f rank Paul inquiry.

There have been recommendations that there should be an independent investigation, that the police should not be investigating themselves in these types of serious cases, with police misconduct. This has gone back for years. i recall from the time when i practised law in the late 1970s and into the 1980s that certainly some of my col - leagues who practiced criminal law, the defence lawyers, were saying that there should be independent investiga - tion in cases where there is alleged police misconduct or death or serious harm to individuals. That was being said back into the 1970s.

So this is decades in coming. i think if this legislation had been brought in earlier, then perhaps the very unfortunate lack of trust that british c olumbians have for the rcMP could have been avoided. a nd that's a serious, serious matter — that the people of british c olumbia have a lack of trust for the police and for the rcMP . i'll give you some examples of that.

The rcMP: in its most recent poll of people in c anada about leadership, about their communications, accountability and public complaints investigation, the results were very disappointing and concerning. [1020] i'll give you some examples comparing b.c. and c anada. With regard to the statement that the rcMP is an accountable organization, in c anada as a whole, 76 percent of the people thought that the rcMP is an accountable organization. in b.c. in June of 2010 that number was just 56 percent.

With the statement, "The rcMP has strong, reliable leaders," nationally the agree - ment with that was 69 percent. in british c olumbia it was only 54 percent. The next one is quite relevant to the bill that we're dis- cussing right now: "The rcMP investigates public complaints appropriately and with transparency." a cross c anada the agreement level with that statement was 70 percent and in british c olumbia only 57 percent.

With the statement, "i have trust and confidence in the rcMP ," c anada-wide the agreement level was 84 percent, but it was only 73 percent in british c olumbia. [D. black in the chair.] i find that very hurtful. i have a great deal of respect for the rcMP , and certainly in my community the rcMP have done a stellar job in terms of communications with the public, meeting with the public and making contact with the public, and have conducted themselves in a very professional way. u nfortunately, that feeling is not universal, by any means. in fact, the numbers are quite appalling in british c olumbia. Why is that?

Well, i do think that a large part of it can certainly go back to the concern that people have because of the very high-level and high-profile cases where the police investigated themselves, and there were real problems with that. of course, the most obvious are cases like r obert Dziekanski, and there have been others.

There has been the f rank Paul inquiry, and there have been several others. u nfortunately, i think that the lack of trust that we have in the rcMP is certainly clearly linked to cases where the police have investigated themselves and where there have been real problems with that investigation. [D. h orne in the chair.] i think it's really unfortunate because i think one of the most important things that we can do in a society is that we need to have trust in our police, and there needs to be a sense that things are done fairly by all people. it has to be by the police. [D. black in the chair.] So it's unfortunate that we've reached this situation, and i think particularly of newcomers to our country. i was quite shocked when i had a group of adult eS l students come to my office a couple of weeks ago. i was talking to them, so proud of my country and talking about various services and so on.

They reflected back to me that they had some concerns about various services and inabilities they have to acquire services, but one of the things that several of them mentioned was concern about: "Should we trust the police in this country?" i was absolutely shocked, because i've always been brought up to believe that you can trust the police, that you can go to the police, that you'll be treated fairly and that the police are utmost professionals. a nd i know they are.

The lack of trust, when we have only 69 percent of the people in b.c. saying that the rcMP demonstrates professionalism in its work, is not reflective of the per - centage of rcMP officers that are highly professional. a s i said, in my community i have a great deal of faith in the rcMP , in the professionalism, in the integrity of that organization.

So it is shocking to me and disturbing that we have so many people in our province — and across c anada, but less so across c anada — who are concerned about the professionalism, the accountability, the leadership and the transparency of the rcMP . i do again think it's directly related to some of those high-profile cases like the Dziekanski case, where the police were investigating themselves and were found to be sorely lacking. [1025]

british c olumbia Debates7442 t hursday, May 26, 2011 in the way they investigated, in the public statements that were made, in the perception that the officers that were involved did not tell the truth, in holding back the video, all of those types of things were associated with the high level of skepticism, cynicism and concern that the people of this province and around the world had.

That's a real concern that this perception is not just limited to british c olumbia, but it echoed around the world with that very high-profile case. it is very unfortunate that if we had previously had an independent office like has been now proposed, then the incidents that brought people to be so cynical would have been lessened, if not eliminated. r emember, it's not just the behaviour of the police officers with the tasering of r obert Dziekanski which was of concern. it was the behaviour afterwards wherein the police….

The perception, i think, of the public was that the police closed the circle, circled the wagons and then behaved in a way that was not transparent; made state - ments which were later clearly shown to be not true; that the

interpretation that the officers involved had, the statements that they made, were inconsistent; that some of the statements made by the police spokespeople afterwards were patently wrong, in error. a nd the whole process was then tainted by the fact that, in fact, the rcMP were investigating themselves, and their process was sorely lacking.

So it is a long time coming. i want to just quote something that Thomas braidwood said in his report on the r obert Dziekanski inquiry. h e said: "if a body at arm's length from the rc MP had conducted the…investigation, that body would have been and would have been perceived by the public to be impartial.

The public would have been much more likely to accept without suspi- cion what such an impartial body said about the incident." it is unfortunate that there was that level of suspicion and cynicism that we've talked about. braidwood him- self has pointed out that if a body like this had been in place at that time, then the damage to trust of the rcMP would have been far less. a nd i think we could go into again the case of Mark and r osemarie Surakka and also the f rank Paul inquiry.

Y ou know, some people might say that, yes, perhaps it would help in terms of the investigation afterwards to have had a body like the independent investigations office in place but that it would not have made any dif - ference to the initial tragedy, wouldn't have made any difference to the behaviour of the officers in some of those situations. but i'm not so sure of that. i'm not going to second-guess what would have hap - pened if an independent office had been in place at the time. but i wonder, if police officers were aware that their behaviour would be investigated independently, that there would be no opportunity to…. f or example what used to drive me crazy when i was practising law was that if there was a serious case, then the officers could go back and be debriefed.

That's an important thing for somebody to get counselling and be debriefed. but the result was, potentially, that police offi- cers also would have a chance to talk to each other about what had happened and compare stories and make sure that stories were consistent. i'm absolutely clear. i know of cases where it appeared to me that that had happened. i think if police officers were aware when they were working that there is an independent investigation office, it would bring another level of oversight of which the police would be aware. [1030] a gain, i want to reiterate that i have a great deal of respect for law enforcement in this province, for their profession- alism. but i think it is important, and the bringing in of this legislation recognizes that it is important, to have oversight.

So i do believe that it could have, to some degree, a preventive value and will have a preventive value as well as raising the bar in terms of the investigation that happens afterwards. it may be a side effect of the legislation as well. C. Trevena: c an i have leave to make an introduction, Madam Speaker? Deputy Speaker: Please proceed. Introductions by Members C.

Trevena: i hope the h ouse will make welcome some grade 5 and grade 6 students who are in the h ouse today — and i apologize to them if i mispronounce the name of their school; we did have a practice outside and at the school when i went to visit them there — from the t'lisalagi'lakw School in a lert bay. They are emily, h ilary, l aura, Mary, Gwanti, r oy, c edarus, t ianna, Janine, l exi and k ieran. They are joined by a nthony h unt, r uby Peterson and their teacher, l ina n ichol.

They are doing a tour of the h ouse. i went to meet them at their school, and they were very excited about coming down here. i hope that the h ouse will make them welcome and will show them that we can be very well behaved in this, our big h ouse. Debate Continued K. Corrigan: i welcome the students as well. We have a big crowd today. We don't always at ten o'clock in the morning, 10:30 in the morning. i'll get back to my comments. Despite some of the concerns that i have and will express, this is a good thing.

This bill is a good thing, and it's very welcome. i think it's important to note that Justice Thomas braidwood, who led the inquiry into the 2007 death of r obert Dziekanski, supports the act. h e says: "This reform will go a long way toward strengthening public confidence in our law-enforcement agencies. Public reaction was swift and vocal that the

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 26, 2011 7443 police should not investigate themselves. i encourage the people of british c olumbia to support this legislation. it certainly conforms to my recommendations." There is also support from Jim c hu and other rcMP and municipal police forces. Jim c hu, the Vancouver police chief, said: "i t's a historic day for policing in our province.

This new legislation will increase the transparency of police actions." That is very important, i think — to know that we have police support. i think it is important in that it reflects a maturing of the culture of the police. i think that previously — and i've certainly heard police officers saying this, and i read this — there was some suspicion about the idea of taking investigations away and putting it under the aegis of an independent investi- gation office. but i think there has been a maturing and a recognition that it's important to all of us in british c olumbia — the investigation of serious situations where there is harm or death involved or a criminal act by a police officer. i think the police recognize that it's for the benefit of everybody that there be independent investigation in order to protect the reputation, the integrity of police departments. i'm really pleased to see the widespread support that there is from police agencies across this province.

So it is good, and it has been supported by many. i certainly am supportive of the independent investiga - tion office establishment as well. but i also have some concerns. i will mention some of them briefly. i have a lot of colleagues who want to speak today, so i think i'm going to shorten my remarks to some degree to give all of my colleagues a chance to speak. [1035] My first comment is that the bill provides that the appointment is by cabinet. Therefore, just by the very nature of it, an appointment by cabinet is an appointment that is discussed and made behind closed doors.

That's what cabinet is. a nd it can be seen to…. i'm not saying it would necessarily, but it takes on a more political tone. i would note by comparison that the Police c omplaint c ommissioner is appointed by a committee of the l egis- lature. So i think that's a contrast that i am concerned about.

The Police c omplaint c ommissioner — i believe that office was set up by the nDP . i think the reasoning likely is, and i submit should also be in this case, that when we're looking at the issue of transparency and oversight and integrity the whole process should be one that is unassailable in terms of the perception of integrity and oversight and transparency. i think it's disappointing that the government has chosen to have the appointment be made by cabinet because, as i said, it then moves it into the potential of being political in nature. i also want to express a little bit of concern about the type of oversight that has been chosen by this government for the independent investigation office. in other words, who investigates the investigator?

Who has oversight for the investigator? There are various options that the government could have chosen. The one that was recommended by Thomas braidwood was that the provincial ombudsman have jurisdiction over the iio . in addition, there is a possibility and, i think, another model that could have been looked at. a nd certainly in committee stage i'll be questioning and asking the minister: what about the possibility equivalent to what we have in the municipal police forces, which is a requirement that we have a police board? on a police board in a community, you have local input. Y ou have the mayor.

Y ou have citizen involvement, and you have police involvement as well. i think it's bal - anced, and it reflects the views of the community. So it's another possibility that could have been put in place. a s i said earlier, if i'd had more time to review this bill and have discussions with people, i would have liked to have had the opportunity to discuss whether that would have been a preferable model for oversight.

My feeling about democracy is that the more people you have involved, the more you bring your community in, you bring civilians in, you bring professionals in to have oversight, to have more eyes on an organization, particularly an organization as important as one that is investigating possible wrongdoing. c ertainly, in the case of death and serious harm to somebody or wrongdoing by a police officer, i think it's important that we attain the highest levels of transparency and oversight.

So that was another possibility. i mentioned that braidwood recommended that the provincial ombudsman has jurisdiction over the iio .

Well, it's interesting. h ere's where the ombudsman recommen- dation to me is a possibility that could have made sense. i read a report called Oversight Unseen, a September 2008 report of the ombudsman of ontario, wherein the ombudsman, as a result of some serious cases and, as well, many, many complaints to the ombudsman's office, conducted a review of the operations of the S iu , which is the Special investigations u nit in ontario. i guess you could call it a most scathing review. i think it was. [1040] it uncovered and talked about many, many shortcom- ings of that unit, which oversees special investigations. a s well as real concern about many of the situations and things that had happened, the Oversight Unseen report made about 46 serious recommendations about how things could be improved. it talked about records and the way investigations were being done, concerns about the fact that sometimes the Special investigations u nit was not called in quickly enough — real, systemic kinds of concerns about how that Special investigation u nit was operating and recommendations for improvement.

So i'm not clear that the oversight that is in place, the choice of having the oversight by the police complaints

british c olumbia Debates7444 t hursday, May 26, 2011 commission is necessarily not going…. i'm not sure that it won't be as strong, but again, i would have liked to have more time to consider whether or not the o mbudsman, as a more independent organization not related to the police, might have been the better way to go. So i do have some concerns about that. There has also been some concern expressed — and i have some concerns, and certainly quite a few commentators have expressed some concerns — about the scope of the types of crimes that are included in this act.

So what the act says is that… it covers cases where there is serious harm and "a person may have died or suffered serious harm as a result of the actions of an officer, whether on or off duty" or as well, whether the officer, "whether on or off duty, may have contravened a prescribed provision of the c riminal c ode or a prescribed provision of another federal or provincial enactment…." c ertainly, some people have expressed concern about the scope that is included there. i think it's important that where somebody has died or suffered serious harm the independent investigation office be brought in — or when the officer or officers involved may have broken a law, essentially. but i do have some concerns about that, and one of them is that "serious harm" is defined in the Police a ct, and that's the definition that applies in this case, to "injury that (

a) may result in death, (

b) may cause serious disfigure- ment, or (

c) may cause substantial loss of impairment of mobility of the body as a whole or of the function of any limb or organ." it's a pretty graphic description, but i think it's important to be clear what we're talking about. but, for example, would the incident where an 11- year-old boy was tasered recently in a pril….

Would that situation have been covered, and would that be covered by the independent investigations office? i think many people think, believe, that that type of situation is one that should also be included. in addition, we don't know yet what kind of contraven- tion of the c riminal c ode or other federal or provincial enactments will be included, because that's going to be prescribed. in other words, we're going to get some regu- lations. it would be nice to know, while we're considering the bill, what kinds of situations will be covered.

So i do have some concerns about the scope of the crimes that are covered. [1045] i mentioned oversight. Y ou know, i forgot to mention that…. one of the concerns — it's a little piece of the bill but one that i am concerned about — is that when we're talking about oversight,

section 3 in the bill says that: "Subject to the restrictions specified in the appointment and the regulations, a provincial constable, an auxiliary constable, a desig- nated constable or a special provincial constable has (

a) all the powers, duties, and immunities of a peace officer and constable at common law or under any a ct, and (

b) jurisdiction throughout british c olumbia while carrying out those duties and exercising those powers." Which sounds pretty harmless when you take a look at it, but i went back to look and see what

section 10 had actually said previously, and what it had said essentially is that…. i've lost it, but it doesn't matter…. Deputy Speaker: Member, can you take your seat for a moment. i call the member for r ichmond c entre. Introductions by Members R. Howard: i seek leave to make an introduction. There is a school that has joined us today. a s a matter of fact, it's a school i attended back when i was a youngster. interjections. R. Howard: it was a while ago. The students from General c urrie School in my riding of r ichmond are in the precinct today.

They are accompanied by Mr. r on a very. i wish the h ouse would help me make them welcome. Debate Continued K. Corrigan: So i was saying it looks fairly innocuous. The bill note says that it: "clarifies the powers, duties, im- munities and jurisdiction of specified officers." but when i took a look at the previous

section that it was replacing, what essentially it does is take away any requirement for police officers in this province to notify a municipal or rcMP police department when it's going in. in the past maybe it wasn't always done, but it was a requirement under the act that when a police department went into another jurisdiction and did some work or investigations, they were required to let the police depart- ment know that they were coming in, which seems to me an important thing to do. i know that there have been concerns expressed, for example, about the transit police and, you know, what is their jurisdiction. n ow, the transit police jurisdiction, under this act, is across the whole of the province. n obody has to give any justification. n obody has to say that they're coming in.

They don't have to give any warning. They don't have to give any notice. So i think this

section is a real concern, and i will be asking more questions when we get to the committee stage. That is an oversight issue. Where is the oversight with regard to that section? a nother concern is that the report, the decision about whether or not there are going to be criminal charges laid, are going to go to the crown counsel….

Section 38.11 of the bill says that the chief civilian director in charge of the independent investigation office "must re - port the matter to crown counsel." The decision that government has made is who is going to make the decision about charges. u nfortunately, this

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 26, 2011 7445 is not consistent with what braidwood recommended.

The recommendation of the braidwood report was that the decision should be made by a special prosecutor, and that has not happened. i do have some concerns about that as well. in addition, this bill — and i do have to give the govern- ment credit for it — while it does cover both rcMP and municipal police forces, which is important…. h ugely important, considering that, i believe for the majority of people in british c olumbia, policing is provided by the rcMP , which is unusual across c anada. i think we have the largest detachments in c anada, so this is important that it does apply to the rcMP . it doesn't take what i would have thought was a golden opportunity — to unify the police complaints commission and the independent investigation office. in other words, we are still going to have a police complaints commission.

When people go to make com- plaints about the police, there's going to be a provincial police complaints office, and there is going to still be the rcMP complaints commission. [1050] While we are going to have unity in terms of situations where there is serious harm or death or police criminal behaviour or misconduct in some way, we have not taken that golden opportunity to unify the police complaints commission and the independent police complaints commis- sion, so we're going to have a fragmenting of responsibility. it concerns me that we are apparently in the latter stages of negotiating the new rcMP contract between the province and the federal government — and other provinces as well. i'm not sure whether we will then have the opportunity in the future to unify the police complaints commissions as well so that we can have everything under one roof and not then be facing juris - dictional challenges that i think are inherent in the structure that we have.

The final comment that i want to make — because i have an increasing number of colleagues that apparently want to speak on this, so i think i'll shorten my remarks to some degree — is that we don't know what the budget is. We don't have any idea what the budget is for this of- fice. Y ou know, it's unfortunate. We had our estimates, wherein we have an opportunity to go and question the ministers about their budgets, and i didn't have an op - portunity to find out what the budget is going to be for this office. i don't see it. i've looked at the budget of this ministry, and there is no provision for it.

So the ability of this organization, the independent investigation office, to operate effectively, fully, to pro - vide all the services and provide a robust investigative function is clearly related to the budget that the office has, and we don't know what the budget is. i'm hoping that the budget is going to be sufficient in order that that work can be effectively done.

That is my final concern with the bill. o verall, as i said, i'm concerned about the amount of time that it's taken and perhaps some of the heartbreak, the anguish, even some of the incidents that might have been avoided had this bill been brought in years or even decades earlier.

So i'm concerned about that, concerned how long a time it is in coming. i'm concerned about the lack of trust that there is in the rcMP . i hope that this bill, this enactment and bringing this into place, will help to renew the trust that the people have in the rcMP and municipal police forces. i hope that it is comfort to people like Mark and r osemarie Surakka, with the loss of their daughter l isa, and i hope it's comforting to Zofia cisowski, the mother of r obert Dziekanski. o verall, i certainly am pleased that the government has done this, but i do have a few concerns, some concerns that i have set out. a nd with that, i am going to complete.

D. Barnett: t oday i have the privilege of speaking to this great bill proposed and put forward by our Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General. t wo months into a job, and wow — look at the wonderful accomplishment. This, of course, has been asked for by the public for some time. believe it or not, i come from a family where my brother was a policeman for 37 years. i can tell you that the officers, the men and women who serve our province, are great people. They are ones that we respect, and we must continue to respect them. They are strong people, and they protect us.

They, too, appreciate this bill — those that i have talked to. [1055] They, too, wish to continue to have the support of the public and the trust and to continue providing safety for our citizens and to show our youth that they are of the utmost and ones that can be trusted by all. i think this bill is a historic moment. i am proud to be on this side of the h ouse where we are all a part of this, and i am also thankful that the past speaker from the opposition on the other side of the h ouse supports this bill.

Mr. braidwood, who had a big task to do with a tragic incident, supports this, as do many others. it is a sad day when we have incidents in this province that must be investigated by someone other than those who are the only investigators we have. So today this is a great step forward in the province of british c olumbia and for those who serve us so well. There are many recommendations in the bill. There are many, many things that have to be finalized in budgets which will come. a s the speaker across the way has said, we have the bill.

The main part of bringing this forward is having the legislative authority for those that care to move it forward. i can say: today i am proud. i can also say: i am proud of our minister and thank her for this initiative.

british c olumbia Debates7446 t hursday, May 26, 2011 L. Krog: i am pleased to rise in debate on second reading of bill 12. i thought the member for c ariboo- c hilcotin used an interesting turn of phrase when she called it an historic moment. Sadly, the reason we're here debating this bill was obviously an historic moment in british c olumbia's history, which was the death of r obert Dziekanski at the Vancouver international a irport. it was a stain on this province that gave us notoriety — and i use that term very carefully — around the world. it was an international embarrassment for this country.

There is a temptation sometimes to overreact when - ever there is a dramatic case, a fact pattern that arouses great public anger or anguish — or indeed pleasure, for that matter. but the case of Mr. Dziekanski, his death, the death of Mr. bush — all of these cases have high - lighted what has been an ongoing issue with respect to policing, not just in british c olumbia but in c anada generally for a number of years.

That is a concern, a very obvious concern and an extremely legitimate concern around the concept of police forces investigating police forces and making recommendations about whether or not charges should be laid. it would be wonderful to live in a perfect world where we wouldn't have to debate a bill of this nature, but we live in very cynical times. The fact patterns of just the two that i have mentioned, Mr. bush's death and Mr.

Dziekanski's death, have made it impossible for legis - latures anywhere in this country and, most particularly, here in british c olumbia to ignore the increasing lack of trust in the police by the citizenry. That is a sad state of affairs, and i say this as someone who is uncle to a Vancouver city police officer who is married to another police officer. i don't think there's anything harder in any profession or occupation or any calling in life than to know that you don't have the support of the people you are meant to serve.

Y ou can argue about whether it's 50 percent or 60 percent or 70 percent, but the numbers are quite tell- ing, and the polling tells us that. it tells us that we have a significantly increased lack of faith in the police.

What this bill does — and i do have some criticisms; i'm not going to completely give this bill a whitewash; that's not my job in the opposition — is take a step forward in promoting confidence in our police forces and confidence that incidents involving either injury or death to individuals at the hands of police will be thoroughly investigated and that ultimately, that old cli- ché will apply: "Justice will be done." [1100] it is important, as is the other phrase that's often used: "Justice must not only be done; it must be seen to be done." There was a growing sense — quite legit - imate, in my view — that justice was not being done in situations involving police officers accused of offences or suspected of offences. i would think that most police officers in this prov - ince will welcome this legislation because it enables them to say with confidence that if there is an incident that raises suspicion, that looks suspicious, that attracts public attention, that has an impact on morale in any police station in this province, it will be investigated — that there is a process in place that will hopefully be seen to be aboveboard and that will result in appropriate action being taken. i think of the member from Port c oquitlam and her unhappy experience and the experience of her husband in Mexico recently. t o live in a jurisdiction where you cannot necessarily trust the police force is a pretty striking and awful thing. i think most of us, if we've travelled much abroad….

Most of us in this chamber, by virtue of being elected to this h ouse, are solidly in the middle classes. Many of us have had that opportunity. it's a very comforting thing to know that in c anada, the policeman is quite literally your friend. it's not true in every place on the planet. indeed, the lists of countries where it is not true and, even more importantly, the significant numbers of the population of the planet where it is not true…. it's a very sobering thought.

So it's really quite wonderful, in some respects, that here in british c olumbia it is so important for us to have respect for our police force that we are prepared to take this legislative step to ensure that we think it's a real problem when there's a lack of confidence in the police, that we want to remedy that, that it is important to british c olumbians to remedy that. That says something about the nature of our democracy and the privilege it is to live in this province and in this country.

So in that sense, this bill is extremely positive on every level. it will promote confidence in the police. it will promote confidence in the justice system. it will move us forward from what has been — and i opened my remarks talking about Mr.

Dziekanski — a very dark period. n ow, in my job as a member of the opposition, i said that i would not give this a whitewash, and i don't intend to. it is a step forward, but it is not everything, and it is certainly not everything that Justice braidwood recom- mended. a s this l egislature and Mla s who have served in it have learned, when you have a very respected indi - vidual making recommendations — and the name t ed h ughes springs to mind, of course, as another example — it's often very unwise, politically, not to follow all of those recommendations.

That is where this bill, although it will receive the support of the opposition because it is a step forward, is, in fact, not meeting the mark. it has not passed the test. i think it's pretty clear that even those families who were affected most by the incidents i've referred to — l inda bush, Zofia cisowski and others — have basically said: "l ook, this is a good thing. it's a good step forward."

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 26, 2011 7447 r obert h olmes, the president of the b.c. civil l iberties a ssociation, called it "an important baby step forward." but there are some basic criticisms. i've had the priv - ilege of sitting on the various hiring committees of the l egislature, quite often with the member for n echako l akes, and participated in the process of hiring some very fine individuals who have represented this province so ably in their positions as independent officers of the l egislature. i would have thought that this would have been a very good opportunity, rather than have the chief civilian dir- ector of the independent investigations office appointed by cabinet, to have had that individual selected by a com- mittee of the l egislature and reported to the l egislature.

That was certainly, i think, a very positive thing that could have been done.

Moreover, Justice braidwood, even if he didn't go that far, suggested and recommended that the ombudsperson have jurisdiction over this office. a gain, i think that would have been a positive step as well. [1105] i'm also very concerned that the bill is limited in scope. i would think that wherever there is an allegation against a police officer involving a breach of any statute, the criminal c ode, any provision, regardless whether it's seen as slight or significant, as minor or major, it would be best to have a special prosecutor appointed. i don't want to see people put in the position of having to make that judgment call as to what falls within the purview of the act and what doesn't. it would have been far better to have a blanket provision. a s it is now,

section 38.10 would provide that the report would have to be made where, whether on or off duty, an officer "(

a) caused the death of a person, (

b) caused a person serious harm, or (

c) contravened a prescribed provision of the c riminal c ode or a prescribed provision of another federal or provincial enactment." if the police are to have the respect not only that they deserve, as do the vast majority of those who serve, they need to be above reproach. The only way to ensure that is to ensure that the standard of behaviour to which they are held is indeed higher than it is for most of us. W e expect a high standard when it comes to police officers.

When we say that some are worthy of investigation by the new office and some aren't, it is, quite candidly, a double standard, and it doesn't elevate this to the position that it should be. if police are really going to get the respect they deserve, if we are going to step past the awful era of Mr. Dziekanski's death, of Mr. bush's death, then it has to apply across the board.

There can be no respect for the law when the police are believed to be able to get away with some - thing, so to speak, whether it's a traffic ticket or anything minor. r espect for the law must apply to every provision of the criminal c ode, of any statute. They must be held, unfortunately, arguably but most importantly, to a high standard, just as legislators are. o ur lives are public and open books in many respects.

That is what comes with the privilege. in serving as police officers, that is a special privilege. it is a dangerous occupation. it is inherently dangerous. but it is inherently important and crucial if we are to maintain a democratic society. a gain, i contrast the way we feel about policing as opposed to the way you might feel about policing in nations which i won't care to mention this morning, where the police are not your friends. i think it's import- ant to do that. i don't want to go on at great length. i know there are a number of members who wish to speak this mor - ning, because this is important. but i would be remiss if i didn't say that this should be seen as nothing more than, and i'm going to be more complimentary than Mr. h olmes, a good first step — not a baby step; a good first step. but it doesn't go far enough. i am very pleased to see the provisions under

section 38.13, where a special committee of the l egislature will be appointed to review this. i think that is a very positive thing. i offer my compliments to the Solicitor General for that. it gives me hope that eventually we will see an independent officer of the l egislature, perhaps even combined with the existing Police c omplaint c ommis- sioner, because i think we should always be mindful of the taxpayers' money. That would be the appropriate thing to do.

This is a good first step. i am happy to support this bill. it is the right thing to do, and it helps british c olumbians move beyond what has been, as i say, a very tragic time, a time when people have died under difficult and horrible circumstances involving police officers. We have come to that stage where we need to move beyond this and restore some of british c olumbia's reputation as a juris- diction where the police indeed are your friends. [1110] R.

Howard: i am pleased to stand today and address bill 12. it's a significant day in this h ouse, i think, a significant day in the province. i'd like to start with just some thank-yous. i'd like to reflect on r obert Dziekanski and his mother, Zofia, for a minute as well. i'd like to also talk about the job of a police officer, then briefly about the process itself and, finally, wrap up with why i see this as a win-win. firstly, to the thank-yous. i think first i would like to thank Premier c lark for ensuring this was a priority in her government. i know that Premier c lark has taken this very personally, and i know that she spoke to the mothers of both r obert Dziekanski and ian bush and conveyed her feelings, mother to mother, and how tragic these losses were. i'd also like to thank the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General. a s has been said, in two short months she has shown great determination and great diligence

british c olumbia Debates7448 t hursday, May 26, 2011 in getting this done — and not just getting it done but done thoughtfully and getting it right. i'd also like to just express thanks to Justice braidwood, who produced a thorough and thoughtful report and i think, in fact, a very meaningful report. Y ou know, we all get involved in public life to make a difference. i hold very firmly that this will make a sig - nificant difference, will have positive impacts on our societies, in our communities, on our streets and in our neighbourhoods for generations to come because it cuts to the heart of peace of mind.

This is basic confidence in the whole justice system, which starts, of course, with the police officer on the street. While these changes are good — in fact, laudable — the circumstances which seemed to serve as the tripping point to bring them about are most regrettable — in fact, tragic. That r obert Dziekanski died is something that we will not likely ever forget. i was a councillor in the city of r ichmond at the time this happened. W e got periodic updates because there was a real high level of interest and a high level of awareness because it was our city, because it was our airport.

We were very familiar with those surroundings and used to those surroundings bringing us comfort, enjoyment and pride, not distress. So it was a very trying time. o ur hearts did and continue to go out to Zofia c isowski and her entire family, to linda bush and her entire family. i also want to say that the police officers and rcMP officers, the vast majority of which do a remarkable job on a daily basis….

Y ou know, we ask them to put them - selves in danger's way, in jeopardy, on a regular basis, in circumstances that i don't think we can always fully appreciate, often with split seconds to make life-and- death decisions in very unpredictable circumstances. it is not an easy job, and i have immense respect for them. i would like to talk just for a minute about the actual piece of legislation and the process itself, because i think this government is taking a step towards guaranteeing that investigations of police-involved incidents that involve death or serious injuries are both transparent and account- able, and that is very meaningful to me.

Specifically, this new office will conduct criminal in - vestigations, interview witnesses and gather evidence to determine whether an officer may have committed a criminal offence. i think what is paramount in this process is that the investigation will be led by a civilian, not a police officer — not even a retired police officer. [1115] i think worthy of note is that the government is going a step beyond the braidwood recommendations by also creating a civilian monitor to be used on an as-needed basis to raise concerns to the office's director about the integrity of the investigation.

Why is all this important? This is important because it doesn't just establish this government's immediate goal of creating an independent investigation office; this bill begins us toward the government's long-term goal to boost public confidence in our police forces. We as a government look forward to that. one of the notable aspects of this legislation is that it would create an iio , an office that is more independent than those in other provinces, such as a lberta and o ntario. This is in part because the office will report to the a ttorney General rather than the minister responsible for policing.

We look to the community and look at who is sup - porting this piece of legislation. it's been noted, and i'll repeat again, that we have the support of the Vancouver police chief constable, Jim c hu, and of Peter h ourihan, the deputy commissioner of the rcMP in b .c. i think, notably, Justice braidwood himself had this to say: "This reform will go a long way towards strengthening public confidence in our law enforcement agencies." f or the new independent investigation office to do the job required, "it must be civilian through and through." in the interest of time, i'm just going to close on why i feel that this is such a win-win.

That's because i think it's a trust-builder. it's a significant component of the overall trust citizens will feel. People want to trust that other people in groups are held accountable for their actions, that there's no room for suspicions that the process ensuring accountability is tilted towards any one party or one group. a n independent office, civilian-led, will help ensure just that. i think the police want to know that as well.

They want to feel that the public has a high level of confidence in them, and if they feel or experience that trust, their job is just that much more rewarding. it will, i believe, help elevate their status in the minds of the public. The police and rc MP officers win and the public wins because the system provides civilian oversight to ensure that objectivity and fairness are both achieved and seen to be achieved. it is with great pride that i stand today and speak to my support of bill 12. S.

Simpson: i'm pleased to have the opportunity to stand and to speak to this bill. it is an important piece of legislation — bill 12, the independent investigations office a mendment a ct. it's a bill that we're happy to see come forward, and it's certainly a bill that i believe will go a ways to improving confidence around police in our province.

We do know that this really is a question of building confidence. it's somewhat unfortunate in some ways because we also know…. i think everybody in this h ouse has a great amount of respect for all of the police officers and the forces in this province and the remarkable work they do, the critical work they do to protect our citizens in a whole array of ways. Periodically, you have instances that happen. Some of them are just accidental, and they're terrible accidents, and some of them are cases of bad judgment by individuals.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 26, 2011 7449 The challenge that we have, of course, here is to make sure — and it's such a critical thing to make sure — that there is the maximum amount of confidence in all of our law enforcement officials in this province and the important work they do. This bill does go a ways in terms of establishing the move towards the citizen oversight that i think most people in this province and certainly most people in law enforcement would concur is an important step. i think that most people in law enforcement….

We've certainly seen in the comments of senior leaders in that field in response to this bill that they know and understand that the critical piece, the fundamental and core piece, in building that confidence and firming that public confi - dence up is the matter of citizen oversight. [1120] The idea of police investigating police without some kind of oversight just creates a discomfort for many people in the public, whether it's fair or not. We know that in the large majority of cases those reviews have been quite credible reviews, but there has been a ques - tion of confidence created.

We know that there have been a number — not a large number, but there certainly have been a number — of instances in our province that have compelled the discussions and the actions that have led to the production of this bill. We know the circumstances around f rank Paul, around r obert Dziekanski, around ian bush. These are all tragic cases that everybody would say should never have occurred. They were a combination of errors in judgment and of tragic mistakes that need to be looked at and need to be investigated.

They led — and the Dziekanski case in particular, as we all know, led — to braidwood and to Justice braidwood doing the work that he did, very meticulous work over an extended period of time, as he looked at the circum - stances behind Dziekanski. h e had some very strong criticisms of the way that those matters were handled by the rcMP and some very firm recommendations about how we move forward. t o the government's credit, bill 12 moves forward on addressing those matters, particularly on this core ques- tion and fundamental question around oversight.

My colleagues from burnaby–Deer l ake and n anaimo, who are certainly much more expert in this field, have canvassed and articulated some of the key issues that there are around the bill. a gain, as i'd say, it's a bill that deserves support, but it is a bill that has some critical issues to it. i just simply want to raise the one, and it's the one particular concern that i have with the bill. it really is around the question of scope and what is and isn't to be investigated. Just a couple of quotes.

We know that Mr. h olmes, the president of the b.c. civil l iberties a ssociation, in regard to the question of scope, is quoted as saying: "i f you leave the standard where they appear to have left it, what about that 11-year-old who got tasered in Prince George? h e wasn't killed. Do we regard that as serious harm?

Do we get in jurisdictional squabbles because it's just shy of where somebody decides where the line is between serious harm and not-quite-so-serious harm?" on a related matter, the chief of Vancouver, c hief Jim c hu, said: "i strongly urge the government to con - sider expanding the mandate of this proposed agency to handle all complaints against police, not just in-custody deaths or severe injury." n ow the government has said that they will be looking at these questions and addressing these matters in terms of the breadth within regulation, and i respect that. i guess the comment i would make is that i think it would have been preferable to have addressed those matters within legislation instead of regulation.

We'll all look forward to seeing what those regulations look like when the government gets to producing them. i would hope that the minister and the government would look at the advice that they received from Mr. h olmes and, particularly, from c hief c hu around really covering probably the breadth of issues of complaints against police generally. i think that is an important step. i think that many of these, hopefully, are very minor incidences that don't require much attention and time, and there will obviously be the odd case that requires much more attention. but i do believe that that is some - thing that needs to come forward and be addressed. h on.

Speaker, i know that we have a number of people who want to speak, and i'm not sure what the time in the h ouse is for this bill. i just want to say that i think this is a very important step forward. i think the bill does go, cer- tainly, a long way to dealing with the question of public confidence. The bill does go a way to addressing the issues.

There certainly are some places in it where i think questions remain to be asked. i know the minister and the government have said that many of those will be dealt with, as i'd said previously, within the context of regulation. [1125] We look forward — and we'll get some advice, hope - fully, in committee stage — as to what the timing on those regulations is and what some of the minister's thinking is about some of the advice that has been received in response to the bill. h opefully, we'll get that in com - mittee stage.

That may provide some additional comfort for people who just have some uncertainty on some of those core questions that i'm sure the minister is going to be more than prepared to answer. With that, i will look forward to supporting this bill when it comes to a vote. it does take us in the right direction, and i think it provides some comfort for people like the families of Mr. Dziekanski and the families of ian bush, who have been looking for some closure, i think, in terms of not seeing those kinds of instances happen in the future without having confidence about how the review happens.

This begins to take us this way.

british c olumbia Debates7450 t hursday, May 26, 2011 With that, i'll leave the floor to other speakers. J. Rustad: i'm very pleased to be able to stand today to talk on this bill. This is a very important piece of legis- lation. but just before i get into some comments on the legislation, i just want to address a couple of issues. The member for burnaby–Deer l ake in her opening comments spent about 15 minutes talking about not having enough time.

Well, perhaps that was a little bit excessive, considering that 15 minutes in a rather short debate is a fair bit of time. a lso, it is unfortunate that there was a request from the official opposition to not sit the week before and the week after the leadership race that they had, and that was unfortunate. Deputy Speaker: Member, could you please take your remarks to the bill that's before the h ouse. J.

Rustad: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and i am actually going to be speaking very soon to the bill. i just wanted to make some comments with regard to previous comments that were already made in this l egislature on this bill. Deputy Speaker: Member, we're debating the bill right now. Would you please make your comments to the bill. J.

Rustad: Thank you, Madam Speaker, for your direction on second reading. one of the other things that i find quite interesting about some of the previous comments that i want to get into is around Justice braidwood and the comments say- ing that this bill doesn't go far enough. one of the things that was very important in the work, which i very much support, of our current Solicitor General and previous Solicitors General is that they sat down with Justice braidwood and worked through this bill and discussed how this bill works, how it met the recommendations. a t the end of this, in introducing the bill…. i want to read into the l egislature a quote from Justice braidwood from the Vancouver Sun on May 18, 2011, which is: "i encourage the people of british columbia to support this legislation. it certainly conforms to my recommendations." i'm very pleased, actually, that in bringing forward this bill, it does address those very important recom - mendations that were brought forward.

Police in this province face an incredible and difficult task. i've had the pleasure of knowing many police of - ficers and being friends with many and talking to them about some of the issues and the work that they have done. i can tell you: most people have no idea how chal- lenging their job really is. When i think about…. Despite all of that, they'll step up to the plate. They volunteer. in Prince George we have things like a police academy that trains students, brings students in. They volunteer their time. They take them through and show them what it's all about.

They really do give and participate back to our communities, and i just want to publicly thank them for the work that they do, not just in keeping us safe but also in the work that they do within our communities, because it's important. They believe in our communities. They believe in families. They want to be able to help as much as they can. i know that they also want to see this legislation come forward. That's why i'm so pleased that all of the major police forces across the province, including the rcMP , support this. it's critical. f or me, this is a very emotional issue as well.

When i was first elected in 2009 to represent n echako l akes, one of the first meetings i had was with l inda bush, a constituent of mine from h ouston. She'd obviously had a very tragic incident that happened with ian bush. That was very difficult, walking through what she thought, what she felt about it, her hopes and aspirations as to what may come of this.

She worked very hard with both the federal government and the provincial government, meeting with the Solicitors General that we've had, to try to move something forward to make a difference. [1130] originally, when we started talking about this, the challenge was: how do you get this to work with the rcMP , because it's a federal force? i'm so glad that we have been able to work closely with them, and they have agreed. They want to actually see this come forward, because this is important. l inda's comments around this…. i'd like to read this into the record as well. This is from ckn W on May 17, 2011.

She said: "if we'd had it before ian died, maybe he wouldn't have died. i'm hoping that it makes police be more account- able, and i think that if they know the consequences may be serious for them, officers will want to have better training." i know this is only a small piece of closure for a very serious issue, but i'm so very pleased that we were able to work with l inda and to be able to bring forward something that is independent, that does have the over - sight of all of the police forces, including the rcMP . i just want to close with one other comment about this, and that is around the various scope of complaints that will be dealt with and the investigations that will be looked at.

We have very good legislation in this province for the Police c omplaint c ommissioner, which looks into a wide variety of complaints that come forward. Many of those issues that the members opposite have canvassed, as a matter of fact, go through that. What's important is that the Police c omplaint c ommissioner works with this office so that the serious cases are dealt with at a much higher level, at an independ- ent level, with the kind of investigative skills and abilities that are required to make sure that the public has con - fidence in the police forces and in the process that goes forward.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 26, 2011 7451 With that, i do know there are a few others that would like to speak to this, but i just want to say, once again, to our Solicitor General and the Solicitors General be - fore: great work in doing this, in bringing this forward in a timely manner, bringing it forward, quite frankly, as quickly as can be through this type of a process. it's something that's needed. c onfidence in the police force is certainly important in this province, and i think this goes a long way to addressing many of the concerns. C.

Trevena: i, too, am speaking — like members, i guess, on both sides of the h ouse — in favour of bill 12, the Police (independent investigations office) amendment a ct. i would, however, like to echo some of the comments made by my colleague for burnaby–Deer l ake on the amount of time to examine this very important piece of legislation. We're hearing criticisms about spending time to dis - cuss this when we could be having the debate.

We have two very important parts of the way we proceed with legislation. one is the debate, this section, when we can talk on matters of principle, and then we have the com - mittee stage where we can go through line by line and get some analysis. Maybe some of our concerns on this side of the h ouse would be answered in committee stage. So i would hope that even with this truncated session, we are going to be able to have a full committee stage and ensure that, although we have not been able to sit in the l egislature for very long, we can fully debate it.

This bill is very important, because i think a lot of people are losing trust in the police forces. People are concerned about seeing the police sometimes acting in manners that they don't believe are appropriate. There really is a sense that to have an independent body that can oversee investigations is a very essential part of po - lice service and its role in a democratic society. Y ou cannot have a good police service without trust there.

This isn't assisted — the sense of trust — if the police are investigating themselves. a gain, like other colleagues — i know a number of people want to speak here — i would like to echo very briefly my concerns about this bill. i think it is very im - portant. it's good that it's been introduced. it's good that we're going to have the independent office. it will strengthen people's confidence in the police and in police investigations, but i think it is the issue of scope. i know other colleagues on this side of the h ouse have talked about what the b.c. civil l iberties a ssociation has said about it. i think it's fundamental for all of us to listen to what the c ivil l iberties a ssociation says, because they are independently analyzing the issues.

They have said clearly, on an issue that is of huge concern, i would hope, for everybody in this h ouse — the tasering of a youth, a child, in Prince George a few months ago…. [1135] r obert h olmes, the president of the civil l iberties a ssociation, said: "i f you leave the standard where they appear to have left it, what about that 11-year-old who got tasered in Prince George? h e wasn't killed. Do we regard that as serious harm?

Do we get in jurisdic - tional squabbles because it's just shy of where somebody decides where the line is between serious harm and not- quite-so-serious harm?" i think these are the areas we really have to examine very closely — where that scope is, where the jurisdic - tional lines are, where the investigations can proceed — because they are important.

When the police over - stretch their authority or overstretch their perceived authority, it undermines everybody's trust in the service, everybody's trust in law enforcement and, therefore, trust in the way that society operates. because if we don't have trust in our law enforcement, we are in serious shape. So with that, i will leave it. i will cede the floor to other colleagues, but i hope that the government will analyze the concept of scope when they are going forward, when we're into the committee stage and when they're actually implementing this and using their regulations. With that, i cede the floor. D.

Hayer: Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to bill 12, the Police (i ndependent investigations office) a mendment a ct, also called the iio office, that will create an independent investigations office to look into police-related incidents. before i start, i want to say thank you very much to our Solicitor General and minister responsible for Public Safety and our Premier c hristy c lark for introducing this legislation, because this is a very important bill to many people in british c olumbia, especially the mother of ian bush and the mother of r obert Dziekanski.

Many other individuals in british c olumbia have talked to me about this bill. This iio will investigate serious incidents involving both the rcMP and the municipal police. it will be led by a civilian who has never served as an officer in the police. This bill, which was recommended by highly regarded Justice Thomas braidwood, is welcome in all quarters — the general public, the past victims of crim - inal acts, the b.c. Police a ssociation, the rcMP and the b.c. a ssociation of c hiefs of Police. i hope everyone in this h ouse will give unqualified support to this amendment when it comes to the vote.

So far, from what i've heard, everybody that's spoken to it supports it, which is good to hear. i know that all the constituents represented by both sides of the h ouse are fully in support of this amendment. This amendment makes sense. it makes sure that the onus on the police officer investigating himself…. it takes away the onus of the police officer investigating himself when an incident occurs that may have signifi - cant impact on others. it also eliminates any charge of unfairness and in fact brings balance and fairness to any investigation that involves a police officer.

british c olumbia Debates7452 t hursday, May 26, 2011 i know the rcMP supports this bill, especially those in my city of Surrey who have told me so. i talked this morning with the deputy commissioner and the chief superintendent of the Surrey rcMP today. h e and his officers and the rcMP police forces in Surrey fully sup - port it. The commanding officer and deputy commissioner of the rc MP e division Peter h ourihan had this to say about this bill.

"i support this legislation fully and embrace it." This is good for Surrey, because Surrey is going to have the largest rcMP detachment in c anada moving to it soon. it will be the head office of rcMP e division, which will be located on a huge state-of-the-art loca - tion in the Surrey–Green t imbers area of Surrey, right next to the new Surrey Jim Pattison outpatient hospital, which will open soon and which is another $239 million investment into health care for Surrey residents.

This bill is a win-win for everyone. it is supported fully right across the province. a s Justice braidwood said: "This reform will go a long way towards strengthening public confidence in the law enforcement agencies." [1140] The mother of r obert Dziekanski — who died at the V ancouver international a irport during the altercation with rc MP officer and was the subject of Justice braidwood's report — said this to the amendment. The creation of an independent investigations office, iio , is good.

" n ow i can sleep better. i can think better. i can do something for me better." While i have all the respect in the world for our police officers and admire them greatly for the incredible work they do to keep our communities and our people safe, i also believe this bill 12 will ensure investigations will be handled by civilians, which will ensure that our police officers will be more accountable to the people they serve.

Most importantly, this amendment and this office it creates will restore the faith people have in our hard-working police officers, and that faith in our police is critical, because it generates respect. We must be able to respect our police, to rely on and count on our police.

We must be able to respect our po- lice and rely on them and count on the police if we want to have a good community, a good country and a good province. f or us, police put their lives on the line all the time when they're going out and providing the services to our community. if a situation arises where it may be thought that a po- lice officer or a police office has stepped over the line in dealing with innocent people or dealing too harshly with someone, this new independent investigations office and this arm's-length-from-police, civilian-led office will en- sure that everybody's interests are considered, weighted and determined in a clear, transparent and accountable manner.

Justice will not only be seen to be done; it will be done in the eyes of everyone. This is proper, and it is fair, and it is welcome by all. Madam Speaker, i fully support this legislation and the independent investigations office. it will ensure the confidence we must have in our police force. i'm happy to hear that both sides of the h ouse are supporting it. i look forward to this bill being passed into law. Deputy Speaker: before proceeding, i would just like to remind all members that second reading debate pro - vides an opportunity to discuss the principles of the bill.

We appear to have broad support across the h ouse for this bill. So i ask members to please ensure that your comments are focused on bill 12. Thank you very much. J. Kwan: i rise to speak to bill 12, the Police (i n- dependent investigations office) a mendment a ct, 2011.

We have waited a long, long time for this piece of legisla- tion — in fact, so long that some of the issues and some of the cases that i think warrant visiting in this l egislature might even have been forgotten in terms of some of the details and the history around these cases. i have to say that in my riding, Vancouver–Mount Pleasant, we actually have a number of constituents who come in and raise issues with us with respect to police mis- conduct or alleged police misconduct and issues around police brutality experienced by various constituents. it is true that the opposition supports this bill. i support this bill. but i also want to say, though, that it is a baby step. it is a very small step in the right direction and a necessary step in the right direction.

There is no mistake about that. i will go into some of the details as to why i say that this is simply a first step towards, i think, the issue of police investigation matters. but let me go back in history a little bit here, around the situation that led us to today. one of the cases that has been spoken about somewhat in this l egislature is the f rank Paul inquiry.

People will know that that was the Davies c ommission, and that was initiated quite some time ago. in fact, finally, when the report was tabled…. it was in 2009 when it was finally tabled, and even at that, the Davies c ommission on the f rank Paul inquiry is not a complete inquiry. There's still another

chapter to come related to the tragedy of frank Paul. [1145] The commission's report actually is called Alone and Cold.

This is a tragic, tragic situation and a history that i think none of us should be proud of as c anadians. it speaks to a man that basically was abandoned in the streets, in the back alleys in the Downtown e astside, and he died of exposure. h e died of hypothermia. h e was left there by the police force. l et me just put some passages from the report on the public record. i think this is the moment that we should remember from the past, of what happened to the people who died alone — in this instance, f rank Paul. it reads: "f rank Paul died alone and cold in a back alley in V ancouver sometime on December 5-6, 1998. h e had been turned away from the jail without reason, was not given the choice of staying in the sobering unit of the detox centre where he had stayed just

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 26, 2011 7453 the night before, and was left wet and exposed to the elements. h e was severely intoxicated, could not care for himself and, in a weakened state, died of hypothermia. "The VPD acknowledged at the beginning of this commission that the two police officers primarily involved made fundamental mistakes of judgment in rejecting f rank Paul from the jail and leaving him alone and cold in that back alley.

My terms of refer- ence require, however, that i also conduct a broad inquiry into the institutions that had responsibility to respond to both the circum- stances and the possible responsibility for his death. "a s to these institutional questions, very little was known prior to the work of this commission. The evidence requires me to conclude that despite the service of many fine and diligent professionals, our systems of justice and social service ultimately failed frank Paul.

"The VPD made an apology in 2004 for its members' role in f rank Paul's death, and in the course of this commission its offi- cers acknowledged the errors that were made on December 5, as well as the shortcomings in the subsequent investigation carried out by its homicide squad. This report deals extensively with the ways in which that investigation was flawed by reason of inad - equate policies and conflicts of interest inherent in police officers investigating fellow police officers for possible criminal conduct.

"The disciplinary function within the VPD was hampered because it acted upon and depended upon the flawed criminal investigation." Then the report goes on to speak about the fact that f rank Paul was an aboriginal man and the history re - lated to him, the struggles for him as a child, and the fact that he was sent to residential school, that he lost family members to alcohol abuse, that he struggled from his early childhood "to make sense of a world in which his family was fragmented and fractured." it also speaks to the fact that the "tragic arc of life" that followed f rank Paul also applies to many aboriginal people. [Mr.

Speaker in the chair.] The report makes it clear that our system of investi - gation was flawed all the way through. in spite of this finding from this commission, it took other incidents — and significant incidents, at that — for the govern - ment to finally bring in this bill. a s we all know, since the f rank Paul case there have been a number of high- profile cases, of which perhaps the most high-profile was the Dziekanski case. We all know about the braidwood inquiry. We've heard much about it, and i believe that it was the final push, through the braidwood inquiry, that brought us to where we are today.

That's not to say that the braidwood inquiry is not important, but it is to say that it took so many cases and so much injustice in our system to finally get to this first baby step. Y ou've got to ask the question: what is wrong with that picture?

There is something fundamentally wrong with that picture when our system within this l egislature is so slow, that we move at a snail's pace, at best, to correct wrongs of the past and to set a path to say: "h ere's what we've learned from those experiences, and here's what we're going to do to ensure that that kind of history does not repeat itself." [1150] The braidwood inquiry, no doubt, brought us to the place where we now have bill 12, but the f rank Paul inquiry, in my view, was a significant piece of that history as well.

The Davies c ommission stated that very clearly: "Mistakes marked by indifference, callousness and failure to care, evident in the f rank Paul case, often occur within a system that nei- ther requires nor facilitates best performances, nor holds individ- uals accountable for the effective discharge of their public duties.

"The VPD investigation into the circumstances of f rank Paul's death was methodically flawed. in particular, the unwritten, unpublished and generally unknown policy of preparing so- called 'neutral' reports into police-related shootings provided an unaccountable environment for the conduct of superficial inves- tigations and inadequate reports to crown counsel and hence had the effect of ensuring that, despite police involvement in the death and assignment of responsibility to the homicide squad, facts were overlooked, suspicions unaddressed and clarifying evidence left untouched." i think that speaks volumes — that passage in and of it - self from the Davies c ommission. i will have more to say about that and about another aspect of the f rank Paul inquiry that is not yet finished. a

chapter of that history is not yet finished — still more work to be done — and i wonder: when will the gov - ernment act on that, and when will we see changes incorporated from that in bill 12? of course, there are other cases that i would want to bring to the attention of the public through this debate, but i am noting the time, and so with that, i reserve my right to take my place again after our break and to come back to continue debate on bill 12. J. kwan moved adjournment of debate. Motion approved. c ommittee of Supply (Section a), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again. h on. b.

Penner moved adjournment of the house. Motion approved. Mr. Speaker: This h ouse stands adjourned until 1:30 this afternoon. The h ouse adjourned at 11:52 a.m. PROCEEDINGS IN THE DOUGLAS FIR ROOM Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y of health (continued) The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section a); n. l etnick in the chair.

british c olumbia Debates7454 t hursday, May 26, 2011 The committee met at 10:08 a.m. on Vote 32: ministry operations, $15,566,169,000 (continued). M. Farnworth: Just for the minister's benefit, we're going to be dealing with public health, and my colleague from Delta n orth will be handling that. f ollowing that, we'll be following up constituents and various health issues that they've got, and then we'll get back to seniors after that. G.

Gentner: There are a lot of issues to cover now, par- ticularly with the changing of ministries. h ealthy l iving is moving into the purview of the Ministry of h ealth, and prevention seems to be the name of the game these days in public health. but before i start, i want to start off talking about l yme disease, and i'm going to surren- der the chair to my good friend from Saanich who is going to kick it off. L.

Popham: The l yme disease file is a file that i took over when i became the Mla in Saanich South from the former Mla for Saanich South, David c ubberley. it's a file that he was very passionate about. h e introduced me to the sufferings of l yme disease patients, and so it's something now that we work on together. it's alarming and concerning, the state of the testing and the treatment for l yme disease in british c olumbia.

The amount of patients that are escaping from british c olumbia because they can't get the proper treatment is alarming. in San f rancisco and in Seattle we see villages of c anadians and people from british c olumbia living in low-cost housing trying to save their lives or lives of family members and going into complete bankruptcy. [1010] This is something that we shouldn't be turning our backs on in british c olumbia, and i've got three ques - tions for you regarding the situation. r ecently l yme disease advocates released a confiden - tial report by Dr. brian Schmidt, vice-president of the Provincial h ealth Services a uthority, commissioned by the then Deputy Minister of h ealth, John Dyble, on the topic of diagnosis and treatment of chronic l yme dis - ease in b.c.

The report was obtained under foi. Dr. Schmidt concluded that: b.c.'s current diagnostic testing is unreliable for detecting l yme disease, doctors lack the knowledge and authorization to diagnose from symptoms, the actual incidence of l yme in b.c . is unknown and is potentially high, chronic l yme disease is treatable but seen as not a bona fide illness under b.c. guidelines, and l yme disease sufferers are refused treatment with antibiotic therapies that could resolve symptoms and al- low them to lead independent lives.

My first question: has the new deputy minister reviewed the Schmidt report? h as the new minister been briefed on the deplorable exclusion of l yme disease sufferers from diagnosis and treatment in b.c .? is the government going to implement the recommendations laid out by Dr. Schmidt? Hon. M. de Jong: With apologies to the member, yes- terday i indicated to one of her colleagues that we would try to get some information on an unrelated matter. if i could, before i forget, just read that information into the record. it was the member's colleague, the member for Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows.

The question related to the r idge Meadows h ospital. a ctually, it's something i think the member for k ootenay West was also interested in — that is, wait times for pa - tients requiring residential care.

The data…. h opefully, the member will discover this in Hansard. in the last 30 days the average placement waiting time from r idge Meadows h ospital into residential care was about 13 days; in the previous 180 days the average placement waiting time from r idge Meadows h ospital into residential care was just over 17 days. i'll endeavour to get that information to the member, but it's now in the record. i'll move on to the questions and the issue that the hon. member has raised. a s a relatively new minister, the member may take some comfort from the fact that the question around l yme disease is one that was fairly immediately brought to my attention from the perspective that there are these competing views or differing views and approaches. but there does seem to be emerging a body of thought — and it is reflected in the report that the member has referred to, brian Schmidt's report — that speaks to the issue of diagnosis. n ow, i'm not a physician, and to my knowledge, the member is not either, so we rely on the kinds of reports that are presented to educate us. l yme disease is a de - bilitating chronic ailment, and there does seem to be an evolving view about the degree to which it is being diagnosed, how it is being diagnosed, and to what extent physicians need to apply best practices to consider and assess whether or not a patient is suffering. [1015] in essence, Mr.

Schmidt seems to be recommending, based on my recollection of the, in fairness,

summary of the report that i saw, that there needs to be some fairly extensive further research into both chronic l yme dis- ease and the diagnosis. That is a proposition that i'm happy to tell the government that i as a new minister ac- cept and the government accepts. i can't and won't pretend to be in a position today to go through recommendation by recommendation. i'll answer if the member has questions around specific recommendations as best i can, but i'm not in a position today to refer one by one to those recommendations. The important point that i think is emerging from the academic material is that perhaps more people than

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, May 26, 2011 7455 historically was thought to be the case suffer from this disease. We may need to take some steps, and the profes- sion of medicine may need to take some steps to better diagnose when l yme disease is actually the cause of ailments, the cause of symptoms that patients are suffering from. L.

Popham: Thank you for that answer, Minister. one of the things that is most misunderstood about l yme disease is that it gets into the category of chronic and is described as a chronic illness when, really, it only becomes chronic if it's not diagnosed and treated in the early stages. it doesn't have to become chronic at all. in a typical year b.c. confirms fewer than ten cases of l yme disease in a province which is largely endemic for the disease.

Y et we know from the doctors survey done by the cD c, partial results of which were obtained under foi in 2008, that 148 doctors clinically diagnosed 221 cases of l yme disease. in any given year 2,500 to 3,000 step 1 tests are done, from which fewer than ten cases are ultimately confirmed with l yme disease. The tests hardly ever find l yme, but when doctors who recognize symptom patterns like bull's- eye rashes do — when they see that — they treat that immediately, and most of it is cleared up. The problem is, as Dr.

Schmidt noted, doctors who rely on faulty testing won't find it and, therefore, don't treat it immediately. it means that most people getting l yme in b.c. go on to develop chronic l yme disease, which is debilitating, causing intense suffering and leaving people unable to work, and it can kill them. Dr. Schmidt notes that under the restrictive guidelines in place today, b.c. doctors do not believe that they're allowed to prescribe longer courses of antibiotic therapy for chronic l yme, which is the only treatment currently known to resolve the symptoms. c learly, Dr.

Schmidt felt doctors have the right in law to prescribe the therapy as they see fit, as long as it meets medical standards, but he recommends that the government assure itself that doctors know they have the right to use these therapies for l yme disease.

My question: does this government believe that quali- fied GPs should be allowed to prescribe antibiotics for chronic disease, and if so, what are its plans to advise them? if not, can it explain how withholding antibiotics from people with a bona fide infectious disease, some - thing that simply would not happen with other diseases, can possibly be justified? [1020] Hon. M. de Jong: i wanted to take a bit of time because we are obviously dealing with an area where there are some differing views amongst clinicians.

Probably my answer will, in part, reflect a little bit of the frustration that derives, i'm sure, for the member and for those who are charged with implementing health policy and practices, when those differences exist.

The good news is that the government, to the member's second point, recognizes that we're probably in a pos - ition where we want to get some reliable information and data of our own, which is why the $2 million has been allocated to fund the diagnosis study. i am just now advised that interviews are taking place relating to the appointment of a professionally trained individual to oversee that project, so it will begin in short order. a gain, i hope that the member derives some measure of comfort from this acknowledgment. i and the government and the ministry are satisfied that there are people whose l yme disease was not diagnosed or treated, and they went on to have real longer-term chronic complications. h aving said that, i must also indicate that there are other patients that professionals and clinicians believe are suffering from chronic symptoms that they might wish to assign to l yme disease but that some physicians believe that is not the case.

So that controversy amongst clinicians persists. The c entre for Disease c ontrol has, over the last few years, stepped up — i think the member asked about this too — the activities around informing physicians about the need to be vigilant in considering the possibility of l yme disease. So that information goes out, urging them to adopt best practices. f rom the time i have had over the

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0526am-02
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0526am 02
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5f6687f5c3683f8de8b8fde8d8c2391c46228382

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