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April

26, 2016

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, David Brazil, MHA for Conception Bay East Bell

Island, substitutes for Tracey Perry, MHA for Fortune Bay Cape La Hune.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Kevin Parsons, MHA for Cape St. Francis,

substitutes for Paul Davis, MHA for Topsail Paradise.

The

Committee met at 9 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Dempster):

Good morning everyone.

We'll

get started; a couple of minutes late. I'll start by letting the minister

introduce himself and introduce his team, or allow them to do the same. You guys

can introduce yourself and then we can get started with, if you want to do a few

opening remarks.

MR. KIRBY:

Sure. I don't have anything

extensive to say at the outset. We're a little late starting so I don't want to

cut into people's time to ask questions.

We'll

just go down the line here and people can introduce themselves. We have quite a

number of people from the department here.

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

Janet Vivian-Walsh, Deputy Minister.

MR. STAPLETON:

Don Stapleton, Departmental Controller.

MS. CLARKE:

Ingrid Clarke, ADM, Infrastructure.

MR. MEDD:

Blair Medd, Director of Communications.

MR. WALSH:

Ed Walsh, ADM, K-12 and Early Childhood Development.

MS. GOSS-PROWSE:

Mary Goss-Prowse, Director of Family and Child Development Division.

MS. STAMP:

Tracy Stamp, Manager of Budgeting.

MS. CONNORS:

Kara Connors, Minister's EA.

MR. BRAZIL:

David Brazil, MHA, Conception Bay East Bell Island.

MR. COLLINS:

Sandy Collins, Office of the Opposition.

MR. REID:

Scott Reid, MHA, St.

George's Humber.

MS. MICHAEL:

Lorraine Michael, MHA, St.

John's East Quidi Vidi.

MS. WILLIAMS:

Susan Williams, Researcher, Third Party.

MS. HALEY:

Carol Anne Haley, MHA, Burin Grand Bank.

MS. PARSLEY:

Betty Parsley, MHA, Harbour Main.

MR. LANE:

Paul Lane, MHA, Mount Pearl

Southlands.

CHAIR:

Okay.

I'll

ask the Clerk to call the first subhead, and maybe what we'll do is run through

each

section instead of subhead by subhead and move on that way.

CLERK (Ms. Murphy):

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

1.1.01.

MR. BRAZIL:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

really am not ready to ask any questions until we get to 2.2.01. I'm quite

comfortable with the outline numbers in the Minister's Office.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

I don't have any questions

for 1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Okay.

1.2.01.

No?

We'll keep moving.

2.1.01.

2.1.02.

MS. MICHAEL:

I want to just ask last

year it was $1.8 million, approximately, for the Grants and Subsidies and it's

going up this year. So could we just have a breakdown of the Grants and

Subsidies?

MR. KIRBY:

There's an additional

$100,000 in there for the T.I. Murphy Centre. That explains the

MS. MICHAEL:

I'm just going to have to do

an adjustment here. I'm not hearing well, so I'll be one second.

Okay.

If I could just have that again, please, Minister?

MR. KIRBY:

In the revised there's an additional $100,000 for the T.I. Murphy Centre.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you very much.

MR. KIRBY:

Then in the budget there's

additional funding for the T.I. Murphy Centre.

MS. MICHAEL:

I just want to check out the Chair with the minister. We've been receiving the

Estimates booklets afterwards, so we'll be getting that again from the minister.

MR. KIRBY:

Sure.

MS. MICHAEL:

Great. So then I won't go

through the whole list because we'll see that list, but I just wanted to see

what the extra was.

Thank

you very much.

CHAIR:

Okay.

2.1.02.

Mr.

Brazil?

MR. BRAZIL:

No, I'm still good until

2.2.01.

CHAIR:

Okay.

2.1.03,

did either of you no.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, 2.1.03; looking again,

this is Policy and Planning, and looking at Professional Services, there is

quite a jump in Professional Services from the revised last year of $156,000 up

to $427,000. So if we could have an explanation please, Minister, of the big

increase in Professional Services.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes. The increase in the

budget is Professional Services related to the new teachers' payroll system, and

the other part of it is the funding for the Premier's Task Force on Improving

Educational Outcomes, $277,000.

MS. MICHAEL:

So $277,000 for the task

force, and how much for the new payroll system?

MR. KIRBY:

No, $70,000 for the

teachers' payroll system.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Now I'm

going to ask, shall 1.1.01 inclusive to 2.1.03 carry?

All

those in favour, aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 2.1.03 carried.

CHAIR:

Now we'll move to subhead

CLERK:

2.2.01.

CHAIR:

2.2.01.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

A question there; the

$75,000 difference in Salaries under the first heading 01. Can you explain? Is

that a new position? Is it added salary costs?

MR. KIRBY:

Are you looking at the

revised or the Estimates?

MR. BRAZIL:

We're looking at the

Estimates from the revised.

MR. KIRBY:

There's a position that was transferred from Child, Youth and Family Services

for information management related to the ISM system. So it's $47,000. I think

there's much more to it than that.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Yes, fair enough.

We can

move now to 3.1.01. Madam Chair, do you want to ?

MR. KIRBY:

Do you want to call that

head there?

CHAIR:

Can we just finish up

Corporate? It was my mistake in procedure. I didn't turn the page and I thought

I had covered it off.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay, yes.

CHAIR:

So is it okay if I just ask

Ms. Michael on the 2.2.01?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, Ms. Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

I don't have any questions

under there, Chair.

No, I

do have one. Under Purchased Services, the budget last year was $14,900, only

$1,600 was spent and now it's $2,000. So I guess I'd like to know why was the

budget $14,900 last year and very little money is needed there now?

MR. KIRBY:

Well, I wasn't sitting here

when it was made to be $14,900, but we save $13,300. It was discretionary

spending we rolled in, and then we're just going to continue to restrain the

spending to keep it down to $2,000.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. So it was nothing in

particular, just discretionary at the very beginning.

MR. KIRBY:

Just trying to keep expenses

down.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

Thank

you very much.

CLERK:

2.2.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 2.2.01 carry?

All

those in favour, aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 2.2.01 carried.

CLERK:

3.1.01.

CHAIR:

3.1.01.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

The $6 million difference

under the Grants and Subsidies for the School Boards; can you explain where that

money is going to be invested? What programs it will cover, please?

MR. KIRBY:

The funding is based on

payroll expenditures for 2015-16. It's the anualization of the NLTA increase

that was negotiated in the collective agreements of 3 per cent. It also reflects

the step increases.

Let's

see what else is here; full-day kindergarten, approximately $6.5 million for

Salaries for the positions for that. There were a number of positions that were

going to leave the system just through declining enrolment. We're retaining 27

teaching units to support inclusive education, instead of letting them just go

as they normally would. So that's almost $1.3 million.

There

are changes in there associated with the increase in the class-size caps that

were announced in the budget and the combined grades, the move to the combined

grades. There's support for teachers, district support for curriculum, literacy

and numeracy support for teachers. So there were a number of initiatives that

were taken out that basically resulted in a reduction in 10 teaching units.

What's

gone on is there were initiatives that were ongoing in the different regions, if

you will, as sort of legacy programming from when we had the four previous

boards. We're not in a budgetary position to harmonize that programming across

the system. So those legacy programs that were not in place across the system

have been taken out. That's about 10 teaching units for those initiatives.

Then

there was also a move by the school district to limit Intensive Core French

where it could be offered within the existing teaching allocation. As you're

aware, French immersion is an optional program that's offered by the school

district. It's not available across the whole school system. It's only where it

can be offered. The district will now just offer Intensive Core French where it

can be done within the existing allocation.

There

was another district program, an optional program that was eliminated. It was

called Learning in Technological Environments, LITE.

To make

a long story short you can have the binder afterwards it's netted out a

number of increases in spending for, like I said, the NLTA collective bargaining

and step increases and so on. Addition of the positions for full-day

kindergarten versus the reductions that are a result of the change in the

class-size caps, the combined grades and the elimination of those legacy

programs that weren't harmonized across the system.

Does

that answer your question?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes. So I'm clear here and I can take precise notes. There are some positions

leaving, due to cap size. The savings then being realized there and the

additional monies are invested back into the all-day kindergarten costing, the

salary increases, as part of it, some of the other investments around numeracy

and literacy, to offset that, and some of the French immersion programs.

MR. KIRBY:

And the retention of the 27

teaching units that would have gone due to declining enrolment.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, thank you.

I want

to move down to 3.1.02, 10, Grants and Subsidies, the operating grants there for

Regular Operating Grant, a $2 million difference. Can you explain where the cuts

there are or the increases, I should say, where (inaudible)?

MR. KIRBY:

Did you skip a page there?

MR. BRAZIL:

No, 3.1.02, School Board

Operations.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

3.1.02,

so you skipped down to I got ya.

MR. BRAZIL:

Number 10, Grants and

Subsidies, a $2 million increase, roughly $2 million, $1.5 million. What will

that go to cover?

MR. KIRBY:

Grants and Subsidies, that's

the line for the $113 million. Is that what you are looking at?

MR. BRAZIL:

Under 10, Grants and

Subsidies, Regular Operating Grant.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, I got you there.

Well,

there's the JES. The implementation of the JES is getting close to $1.6 million.

There are a variety of other smaller things in there. There are school board

elections in there: $400,000.

MR. BRAZIL:

Can you give me a little bit

more clarification of what Grants and Subsidies would include? Is it special

training for professional days? Is it to offset another partnership within the

school system?

MR. KIRBY:

The Grants and Subsidies for

School Board Operations?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

That's the operation of the

school district, if you will, because the teacher salaries are captured in a

different line. So you can imagine the operations of schools being based on two

things, two major things at least. One of them is school board operations, so

all the things, mostly, except teacher salaries.

You

have all the operations of the board office, all the SEOs, consultants,

itinerants and then everything from keeping the lights on in schools to snow

clearing, et cetera.

MR. BRAZIL:

All the standard operation

things of the school

MR. KIRBY:

The operations of the school

district, yes, except teacher salaries, which are another major line item.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, fair enough. Thank

you.

I'm

going to move over to 3.1.04, School Supplies. Under Operating Accounts,

Supplies, there's a $900,000 increase. A little explanation as to what that

increase incurs, please.

MR. KIRBY:

Full-day kindergarten is the

bulk of it.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, it's full-day

kindergarten and there was a reduction in the Government Renewal Initiative. I

think it was sort of misinterpreted with the media; they said, oh, you're

reducing the budget for school supplies. Actually, what it was is just a delayed

implementation of a new course or a new curriculum. That's basically that.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. So the bulk of this is

all-day kindergarten?

MR. KIRBY:

Is full-day kindergarten,

yes.

MR. BRAZIL:

Fair enough.

I'm

going to move to 3.2.02.

CHAIR:

Can we just stop there and

keep it under the subheadings? Is that okay?

MR. BRAZIL:

Sure enough. We can go to

Ms. Michael.

CHAIR:

(Inaudible) on the clock and

then I'll move to Ms. Michael. We'll finish off Financial Assistance and come

back.

MR. KIRBY:

Do you want to go back

there, Lorraine?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, please. I do have some

questions.

3.1.01,

Minister, do you have in your notes, when we get them, the exact numbers of the

different positions that will be gone from LITE and the Intensive Core French,

the various areas where there are reductions in teacher numbers? Will you have

the exact numbers in your notes, or can we get those if you don't?

MR. KIRBY:

I have the numbers. The

teacher numbers aren't in here, but we do have them. The amounts of money are in

here, but if you want to follow up with me I can give you the sort of ballpark

figures. There's sort of the budgeting we do, which are based on Estimates, and

then there's the reality of what happens when they try to balance these numbers

through the school system. You have to understand that there are probably

teachers out there that their full-time position is made up of portions of the

allocations, and teachers who could be anywhere from 0.1 up to 100.

I'll

just take the example of a learning resource teacher, depending on the size of

the school, the portion of the allocation that goes towards their salary as a

learning resource teacher could be 0.75. Well if the principal wants that person

to be full time, they have to make up the 0.25 elsewhere.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. KIRBY:

So when there are budgetary

reductions that cause teacher redundancies, all of that stuff needs to work its

way through the system and then somebody with far greater expertise than me at

the board level and at the school level is balancing out of those 0.25 and 0.3's

and all of that. So I can give you the estimated number because it's not in

here of what the class-size cap changes and the combined-grade changes are

according to what we've estimated with the district. But whether that's exactly

the impact, now that's another questions too it's pretty close, but it may not

be 100 per cent exactly because of those nuances and partial positions.

MS. MICHAEL:

Well, given that

understanding, which I totally understand, if we just could have your estimation

with the understanding that it's not going to be 100 per cent (inaudible).

MR. KIRBY:

Janet just handed it to me.

We went over this with the media in the budget lockup, so this is the same

document. Like I said, it's not in here. Basically the overall reduction in the

numbers of teaching units is 61.25, but that figure is made up of a number of

different things. So the class-size cap changes result in a reduction of 97.75

units.

MS. MICHAEL:

It is 97.75, and these are

units?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes. That's the changes for

grades four to six, seven to nine and the changes in the high school allocation

ratio. So the 97.75 is there. There's a further reduction of minus 69 associated

with the combined grades, so it is minus 69 there. Then there's a minus 32.5 due

to declining enrolment.

The

district initiatives, like you reference there, the LITE program and so on, and

what I was saying about harmonizing, removing those district-specific

initiatives that would have been in place in Western, Nova Central, they're

initiatives through the Government Renewal Initiative and is a further reduction

of 31.5 units.

So you

have all of that then you sort of where we're getting the 61.25 is the

addition of 142.5 positions for full-day kindergarten, and then the 27 that I

mentioned that we were going to retain for inclusive education. So that gets us

to the 61.25.

MS. MICHAEL:

And, Dale, the numbers for

inclusion, do they have extra numbers there over this year or is it static?

MR. KIRBY:

None of the ratios have

changed for any of those positions like instructional resource teachers or any

of the teacher specialist positions, guidance, all of those specialist

positions, the ratios are all the same. So the changes are coming about due to

the cap changes, the combined grades and the changes that the district is making

in their programming in addition to the declining enrolment.

We'll

have the same number of IRTs, special education teachers, as we had last year,

plus the 27. We haven't really fully determined how the 27 are going to be

utilized. We'll work with the district on trying to figure that out. We've

talked about possibly having more itinerants. We have 27 to work with that will

be in addition to what we have now.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much. That's

really helpful, all of that detail. I really appreciate it.

MR. KIRBY:

Thanks.

MS. MICHAEL:

Is there anything else you

wanted to add? You looked like you were

MR. KIRBY:

No.

MS. MICHAEL:

There were two others under

3.1.01 that I'd like to ask about. This may not be something that can be easily

answered, but I'd like to just get an idea of the existence of autism in terms

of are there parts of the province, ratio-wise, where we have more children in

the school with autism than others, or do we find children with autism in every

part of the province.

MR. KIRBY:

I haven't been given any

information to indicate that it's concentrated in any particular area, but

that's about all I can tell you about it.

We know

the prevalence is increasing and there's debate about the preciseness of some of

the statistics. We're often dealing with American statistics or national

statistics, but beyond that, I couldn't tell you. No one has suggested that in a

particular region or school that the prevalence is concentrated on.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right. I guess then more

specific and again, you may not have this answer here but you could probably

locate it is the school board having to deal with having services for children

with autism everywhere in the whole province? How widely spread is the need for

them to come up with the services for children with autism?

MR. KIRBY:

Well, the resources are all

dedicated based on the allocation formula. There's a needs-based portion of the

allocation formula as well. There is a joint committee it's been sort of

stalled at the moment, but there is a joint committee on inclusive education

that was formed at the cessation of collective bargaining, the last round of

bargaining with the NLTA. There's a draft report that's waiting to be released

by the joint committee. They've looked at a variety of things in the system.

One of

the things they did was a survey of teachers around inclusive education,

questions about it and so on. There is really nothing that I can recall in the

findings of that which would indicate that it's anything less than really

uniform. There's definitely a need. And you can certainly make a valid argument

that there's a need for additional resources to address things that are becoming

more clear to us.

I'm not

an expert in this area, but I'd go so far as to say that autism is probably not

something that's new. What's new is our understanding of the disorder and how it

is we can help kids with autism succeed better in school. So we're learning as

we go along, the education system is, but there's nothing that's been suggested

to me that would say that the problems are concentrated or that the district is

having an easy time dealing with it. Everybody understands that it's a

complicated problem and that additional resources are going to be required.

MS. MICHAEL:

Actually, I do have a copy

of the information note that was done by the Inclusive Education Committee

signed by, I think, members of your staff included in the preparation. And I do

see that the survey report that they're working on, the final report of that

survey will be coming in the spring. So I guess after that, you would have a

better idea of the inclusion. This is bigger than autism.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes. In the interest of

transparency I think this was reported by the media some time back the joint

committee has not agreed on the final report; 19 out of 21 recommendations have

been agreed to by the committee. There was some disagreement about how to

finalize the process. It's stalled now as a result of two grievances that have

been filed by the NLTA: one by a member of the committee; the other by the

association itself. The grievances are associated with the process. So until we

can get those grievances ironed out, it's more or less at an impasse, I guess I

would say.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Looking at the clock, Ms.

Michael, I'm going to come back to Mr. Brazil in a moment, but I didn't know if

you had anything else under that subhead before we

MS. MICHAEL:

Under the subhead

CHAIR:

Under Financial Assistance,

if you got a few things then maybe we can

MS. MICHAEL:

I do, just probably two

particular ones.

CHAIR:

Do you want (inaudible) is

that okay with you or do you want to get moving on the next one?

MR. BRAZIL:

I just have a quick

question, if I could ask for clarification.

Can I

ask the minister if he could have his officials put together a spreadsheet for

us just outlining what positions are cap losses, which ones are enrolment

losses, which ones are additional ones, for myself and Ms. Michael? I think that

would make it easier for them so we'd know exact information.

MR. KIRBY:

That would be pretty

straightforward (inaudible).

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, just so we'd know

exactly which ones are in and out.

MR. KIRBY:

Sort of what's coming out

and what's going in.

MR. BRAZIL:

And the additional on what's

going in, please.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, that's no problem.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. I'm good on that.

CHAIR:

You're good on that?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes.

CHAIR:

So I think Ms. Michael just

had another question on that.

MS. MICHAEL:

Two, Madam Chair.

One has

to do with Supports for Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students; how many teachers are

working with them right now? Dale, do you have the retention rates for the

students do you have information on that?

MR. KIRBY:

I don't have either one. I'm

sure maybe Janet can enlighten us. I don't have that in front of me.

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

You asked about the Supports for Deaf and Hard of Hearing, the number of

teachers

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

The particular line that you're referring to there regarding the teachers,

technically right now there are four teachers that are specific to the deaf and

hard of hearing that would have been designated to the Newfoundland and Labrador

ones under that category.

Regarding, you asked about the numbers

MS. MICHAEL:

The retention rates for the

students; do you have information on that?

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

The retention rates specifically are quite good in terms of in general, our

retention rates are quite good. I will say that number-wise, in terms of the

number of deaf and hard of hearing that we have in the system, our database

would give 326 as identified with hearing loss.

MS. MICHAEL:

Really?

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

And we do avail of APSEA

as you are aware, the Atlantic provinces, regarding supports for the blind and

visually impaired, as well as some speciality training regarding the deaf and

hard of hearing and specialized assessments.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

I'll

ask you, actually, more detail on the Atlantic services when we get to that

line; I do have a couple of questions. Then coming right back up to 3.1.01,

there is a cut in the money for substitute teachers. It's sort of static with

what the revision was last year, but it is a cut from what the budget was last

year. And you don't anticipate needing more than that?

MR. KIRBY:

That is a reduction that's

based on the actual payroll expenditures from a previous year. So it's just

anticipating a comparable need.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

That's

all I have for that subhead, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

I'll ask the Clerk to call

those inclusively

MS. MICHAEL:

(Inaudible) I do have a

question there as well.

CHAIR:

Oh, I am sorry.

MS. MICHAEL:

Under 3.1.02.10. Grants and

Subsidies, Student Assistants, the amount has gone up by $2.6 million; if we

could just have an explanation of that, where that money is going.

MR. KIRBY:

There was a previously

announced increase in the number of student assistant hours. I think it's 115

hours a day, so we're going to have extra for student assistant hours. That's

about $730,000 of it. Then there is that JES again.

The

thing that people should understand is that the net impact of the JES was about

a 3 per cent increase in the average wage across the public sector. So as you're

going through the Estimates, for whatever department, you'll see a recurring

theme that there are increases in the budget for salaries that are associated

with the JES.

there's that. Additional student assistant hours now required as a result of

full-day kindergarten: $370,000. Then as an adjustment due to the

discontinuation of lunchtime busing it is $200,000. So there were buses going

back and forth lunchtime because kids were leaving the school for half-day

kindergarten, morning shift coming out and afternoon shift coming in, that's no

longer required. That's less netted out there as well.

MS. MICHAEL:

We no longer require it

because of the full-day kindergarten.

MR. KIRBY:

That's right.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, so that's what that is

all about.

MR. KIRBY:

That's was the sole purpose

of that.

MS. MICHAEL:

That was one of my questions

about the lunchtime busing. Thank you very much, that's helpful.

Again

still under the Grants and Subsidies there, the decrease in the Administration

Grant, do you anticipate an impact on the school board? That's a fairly hefty

decrease.

MR. KIRBY:

No, that's a good news story

there because we're moving the school district office out of Atlantic Place.

MS. MICHAEL:

Oh, that's what that's for.

Right.

MR. KIRBY:

It's something they wanted

to do for a long time. Then there's also JES funding in there for adjustments to

board salary as a result of that. That's the bulk of it there.

MS. MICHAEL:

Great, thank you very much.

Okay,

Madam Chair, I think you can call now.

CHAIR:

Good?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, I think so.

CHAIR:

What I might do going

forward, just in fairness to both parties, I'm going to let one move on if they

need to and then call the subheads for that area when the second one finishes.

Now,

I'll ask the Clerk to call

CLERK:

3.1.01 to 3.1.05.

CHAIR:

Shall 3.1.01 to 3.1.05

carry?

All

those in favour, aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.1.01 through 3.1.05 carried.

CLERK:

3.2.01.

CHAIR:

3.2.01.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

couple of quick questions here under 3.2.01, Curriculum Development.

Professional Services and Purchased Services, while they're down slightly, I'd

just like clarification on is there a program that's no longer there or is there

a particular type of initiative that's already been enough training done, or is

there a better way, a more efficient way, you're doing it to save the small

amounts of money there?

MR. KIRBY:

In Professional Services

there are savings related to the incentive-based approach to energy efficiency.

So there's that. Then the budgeted amount for the Energy Efficiency Initiative

ended in 2015-16. The Purchased Services is the same thing. It's the cessation

of that program which ended in 2015-16, energy efficiency. That's all of it in

fact.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, that's fine.

MR. KIRBY:

Those three things, there are savings and then the discontinuation of the

program.

MR. BRAZIL:

Perfect.

Under

3.2.02, Language Programs, the Allowances and Assistance is down somewhat and

the Grants and Subsidies. Can you explain the issues here? The allowances are up

a little bit from what was actually spent, what that would include as part of

the language programs there; and the drop of $200,000 that was in the revised

last year, what that would include.

MR. KIRBY:

The requests for funding

that came in were lower than in the previous years. The reduction is just to

rightsize it to better reflect what the actual need is.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, thank you.

So,

Madam Chair, just so I'm clear, that's it for me on 3.2.02.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Are you

okay if I just click over?

MR. BRAZIL:

You can go to Ms. Michael on

that part.

CHAIR:

Okay, great. Thank you.

Ms.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, I may have missed this,

but I don't think it was asked. Under 3.2.02, the Professional Services, there

was a big jump last year from what was budgeted and what was revised, so what

caused that to happen? Obviously, it's still a need because we still have it in

the budget.

MR. KIRBY:

The increase was due to

course translations required for French immersion and French as first-language

students. So that was the increase of $168,500.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. KIRBY:

And then the revised figure

for this year is just to reflect that so that we don't get caught under

budgeting again.

MS. MICHAEL:

Great.

This

would be going back prior to 2015, but I'm curious then about the fact that only

$10,000 had been budgeted last year for that service. Did we just only start in

2015 to do the translation, or was it that there was new curricular that needed

to be translated?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, it's just that there

were a larger number. I don't know what it was before

MS. MICHAEL:

Probably new materials.

MR. KIRBY:

2015-2016. I think that

would help inform your question and I don't have it here.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

And

coming to Purchased Services, $192,000 had been budgeted and obviously what was

expected either didn't happen or whatever, but you're maintaining it down low

again this year. So what was expected?

MR. KIRBY:

You're answering your own

question there because that amount in the previous line is shifted up so there

was, I guess, officials in the department who felt that number is better

captured by Professional Services than it is so if you think about translation

being more of a professional service.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

That, more or less, has been

flipped up there. So you see the increase there reflects the decrease there.

Does that make any sense?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, it does. It actually

answers the question about the Professional Services prior to 2015.

MR. KIRBY:

No, I'm sorry, I was having

MS. MICHAEL:

That's the answer to the

question, yeah.

MR. KIRBY:

delayed reaction to your

question. I should have read the next line here.

MS. MICHAEL:

It becomes clear.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, that's what it is.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. They're all my

questions for that subhead, Chair.

CHAIR:

Okay, we can call that.

CLERK:

3.2.01 and 3.2.02.

CHAIR:

Shall 3.2.01 and 3.2.02

carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.2.01 and 3.2.02 carried.

CLERK:

3.3.01.

CHAIR:

3.3.01.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm

just going to go down to Purchased Services under 3.3.01, Student Support

Services. The Purchased Services were budgeted at $69,000, $55,500 and they've

increased to $95,000. Can you tell me what services we purchase under that,

please?

MR. KIRBY:

In the revised the reduction

is due to a vacant position. There was a vacant position for a period of time.

The reason why there's an increase is part of it's for copyright. The note I

have is copyright for articles and best practices is $5,000; $90,000 oh yes,

so the $90,000 is associated with the filling of that position. It was an

occupational mobility consultant. That's a person who works with blind and

visually impaired students. We don't have an option to not fill that position

MR. BRAZIL:

Move that somewhere else.

MR. KIRBY:

We have to do it.

MR. BRAZIL:

Fair enough, that explains

that. Thank you.

Going

to 3.3.03, under the Supports for Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students, the total

investment here of $292,900, down from was budgeted, $369,800, but up from what

was revised. Is there something; is it similar to the previous one, a position

not filled or a new position coming into play for this year under the totals

here?

MR. KIRBY:

Well, there are a bunch of

things going on there. If you look in Transportation and Communications, there

was again, we reigned in discretionary spending to the tune of about $68,000,

then more or less continuing on with that. So that's a big chunk of it.

For the

Supplies line, there was a need for some additional support for students with

auditory limitations. I asked about what the stuff was all about when I came in

and one was for Hushh-ups. I didn't know what that was, but it's something

better than a tennis ball

MR. BRAZIL:

A tennis ball on the bottom

of your chair.

MR. KIRBY:

you put on the bottom of

your chair so it doesn't squeak. Some Professional Services, a reduction there

due to, again, reining in discretionary spending. We're going to continue to do

that.

We've

got, sort of, a fluctuation in the Purchased Services there. Again, it's a

fluctuation in the required costs for repair and maintenance for FM systems for

students who are deaf and hard of hearing. We have anticipated savings that are

associated with that. So if you're spending money one year, you don't have to

spend the same money next year.

For the

Property, Furnishing and Equipment, again, there's a reduction there where we

spent nothing because of a discretionary spending freeze or trying to rein it

in. We're just going to continue to do that and save a thousand dollars on that

one.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, I appreciate that.

That explains that.

Madam

Chair, I'm good on 3.3.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Michael, do you have anything there?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, a couple of questions.

Under

3.3.02, the money that is given to the Atlantic Provinces Special Education

Authority; I am aware, of course, of that and just wondering at the moment the

deputy minister did make reference to this earlier. At the moment what exactly

do we get for that money in terms of how many students do we actually have

needing services from there and what are the services that are provided from

there?

MR. KIRBY:

Janet can chime in here, but

they are a good source of information. I've observed, in terms of consultations,

around what's required. And they do provide us with other, sort of, more

material services, if you will, in the form of translating materials if we have

children who have visual limitations and they're doing exams or what have you.

So putting examinations in a format that's more easy for them to use.

Janet,

if you want to add to some of the other things they do.

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

APSEA, being a coordination or a collaboration of all the Atlantic provinces,

gives us a great advantage for combined professional development for our hearing

itinerants and the blind and visually impaired itinerants. It does help with

some challenging assessments for the children we have here.

We do

have itinerants who work out of the school districts. For the DHH, we have 18;

for the blind and visually impaired, we have nine. But the kind of professional

development that you can get from a combined collaboration through APSEA is much

more rich.

Also,

as the minister indicated, Braille services; there are many times that the APSEA

together will do some professional papers that are assistance to our teachers. I

should mention the Autism in Education project, which has really been a

wonderful project for us as the Atlantic provinces, which was a combined piece

with CAMET. We came up with the online training program which is for teachers

and student assistants as well.

we've benefited greatly from APSEA and we continue to find ways to enrich that,

I think, in terms of the summer camps, those kinds of things as well. As I said,

the autism has been an additional piece in the last few years, but we do feel we

greatly benefit from APSEA.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you very much.

When

you mentioned summer camps, would they be completely subsidized, any children

going to them, if they go to them?

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

I know we do subsidize them. I can get you the amount. I certainly know we

support them financially.

Also, I

should mention the alternate format materials which the minister mentioned. Not

just Braille, but they have a library there that we can access that is of great

benefit to us in terms of the types of alternate format materials needed for

those students with exceptionalities.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you very much.

I think

I had one other question maybe I didn't under 3.3.03. Oh Yes I'm assuming

this, but the appropriations, the supports, for example, in ASL, is that within

the classroom, within the school setting only?

MR. KIRBY:

Is there a

MS. MICHAEL:

The American Sign Language.

It's one of the areas that are covered under 3.3.03 in the Supports for Deaf and

Hard of Hearing Students. Is that referring to the use of the supports totally

within the school system?

MR. KIRBY:

Yeah, I believe that's the

case.

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

The monies for that were

interpreters.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

Thank

you very much.

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

It's through the school

system.

MS. MICHAEL:

Great.

Thank

you, Chair. They're all my questions.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Shall

3.3.01 to 3.3.03 inclusive carry?

All

those in favour, aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.3.01 through 3.3.03 carried.

CLERK:

3.4.01.

CHAIR:

3.4.01.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

I just want to go straight

down to Purchased Services under 3.4.01, Student Testing and Evaluation. The

$116,600 that's allocated now, down from $198,600 that was the budget from

$155,000; can you tell us what the cut was in Purchased Services would be in

that case for Student Testing and Evaluation?

MR. KIRBY:

The revised amount of

$155,000 was just savings achieved because of reductions in discretionary

spending. There's nothing specific I can tell you. We just spent $43,600 less.

Then we're going to continue to save that amount of money, I mean these are

administrative costs. There's a small amount of money there, $9,000, re-profiled

to Employee Benefits. It was taken out of there and put into a different area.

anticipate we're going to spend less in that area based on the reduction that

was achieved in the previous year.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. That's great. Thank

you.

Under

3.4.02, Professional Development, $3.7 million was in line with the original

budget amount but it's substantially up over $400,000 from the revised.

there something we're going back to that was budgeted now or is there some new

allocation in Allowances and Assistance?

MR. KIRBY:

The reduction there is due

to lower-than-anticipated use of leave, teacher education leave. That's when

people go and take a period of time out to do whatever training. So there was

lower-than-anticipated use of that. I guess there's some rightsizing going on

here, but there are also collective bargaining increases that are in there, 3

per cent.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, fair enough.

Grants

and Subsidies, it's a small amount but down from what was originally budgeted.

Is this just the realized savings through the exercise or is there some change

in the Grants and Subsidies that are being provided?

MR. KIRBY:

There were some activities

that were curtailed due to the discretionary spending. So if you think about

travel and that sort of funding associated with meetings and what have you.

That was curtailed due to the discretionary spending initiative.

There

is also, in the budget, if you look at the reduced amount there, the $2.8

million, it also has the 3 per cent again. The NLTA salary increases are in

there. There's a reduction in the expenditure for professional development in

there for $485,000.

That's

basically what it is. There's a reduction in spending on professional

development. That's the bulk of it.

MR. BRAZIL:

I have more under this

heading here, under Transportation and Communications, $593,000. It's up nearly

$100,000 from the revised but down $700,000 from the budgeted.

Can you

outline the change there from the budget to the revised and then from the

revised up to this year's allocations for Transportation and Communications?

MR. KIRBY:

There are various network

and Internet services that are connected to the Centre for Distance Learning and

Innovation. Those costs are now going to be borne by the school district rather

than the department.

That

amount has been moved to a different line to School Board Operations because

we're paying it out that way.

MR. BRAZIL:

So the money has still been

allocated to the department?

MR. KIRBY:

It's still there in the

budget overall but it's in a different line.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

MR. KIRBY:

Then there's this small

difference that you'll see in all the Estimates, probably across all

departments, which is we're trying to save some money related to land lines

across government.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

Madam

Chair, that's good for me in that section, 3.4.

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, a couple of questions.

Looking

at 3.4.03, just wondering, Dale, is there a breakdown I'm sure there is of

the number of students who benefit from this and the number of schools involved.

MR. KIRBY:

Janet has it. She'll give

you the information.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

This year, Ms. Michael, there are 115 schools availing of CDLI. There are about

approximately 40 courses and almost a thousand students between 950 and 1,000

students availing of CDLI.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

And

everywhere that we want to have this happen now in the province, they have the

access that they need, do they, to benefit from it, in terms of access to

getting online and being able to be part of the program? Is there any place that

is requesting it that the systems aren't in place at the moment to make it

happen?

MR. KIRBY:

Not that I'm aware of. Are

there any schools that are requesting CDLI that don't have the necessary

connectivity? Is that what you're wondering?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

Are there?

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

No. My understanding is

those that have requested, have it. There have been some upgrades, however, with

satellites this year which would be included in the cost there that you have in

the equipment. There were some challenges in some rural areas where we added

some additional satellites this year.

MS. MICHAEL:

Oh great.

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

But I'm not aware of any

place right now which has requested, that we haven't been able to provide. But

there has been an improvement in some of the current ones with satellites.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, great.

And are

you aware of needed improvements anywhere else or do you think that at the

moment things are fairly stable?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, there are no requests

that I'm aware of. The issue of rural connectivity is something that's

incrementally being addressed by government, but we still have quite a number of

communities, I guess, that don't have the same level of service that we have in

the Northeast Avalon. You only need to go to Coastal Labrador to experience

that.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

Under

Professional Development, 3.4.02, that's a fairly big drop when it comes to

professional development. Has there been discussion with the NLTA and it's not

a leading question because I don't know; really, I'm asking it. Has there been

discussion with the NLTA of the implications for teachers of such a big drop for

Professional Development?

MR. KIRBY:

There hasn't. I would

suggest that this is not pleasing to advocates for teacher professional

development. To be frank, it's a significant reduction. It's associated with

trying to curtail those expenditures as we're trying to weather the budgetary

situation that we're in.

As we

went through the Government Renewal Initiative, you remember back in January all

departments and ABCs were asked for ideas about where to save money. And this is

associated with that government renewal exercise.

MS. MICHAEL:

Is professional development

again I really don't know the answer. Is the whole issue of professional

development, does that come up under the negotiations as well, or is it totally

outside of negotiations, collective bargaining.

MR. KIRBY:

What are our obligations

under the collective agreement? That's a good question.

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

There would be some

obligations as well under the collective agreement. That particular amount,

though it is definitely for teachers, was within the department's initiatives.

So it was really more ones that we would have initiated, but it still would be

for professional development for teachers.

MR. KIRBY:

I think that when it comes

to the language in the collective agreement, it's not prescriptive. So I would

say I mean if I were a union negotiator I would love for it to say you shall

spend $3 million a year on Professional Development. It isn't that specific.

It's more general for obvious reasons so that it can be adjusted when times are

good or bad. But it's not that prescriptive, I guess, is really the simple

answer.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you very much.

That's

all I have.

CHAIR:

Okay, so we'll call

CLERK:

3.4.01 to 3.4.03 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 3.4.01 to 3.4.03

inclusive carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.4.01 through 3.4.03 carried.

CHAIR:

Now I'm going to suggest

because we've been going about one hour, we only have three subheadings left

that we take a five-minute break. Is that okay?

Good.

Thank you.

Recess

CHAIR:

Okay, 3.5.04.

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

Under Early Childhood

Learning, 3.5.01, Salaries.

CHAIR:

My apologies.

MR. BRAZIL:

That's why when you said

four, I went: did I miss something? But I noted that I had it. Fair enough,

Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

I was doing okay until we

took a break.

MR. BRAZIL:

No problem.

Just

for clarification there, it's up from the budgeted and substantially up from the

revised. Is this a new position or is it a position that wasn't filled at the

time, just some clarification.

CHAIR:

For the purpose of the

broadcast, can we just call that?

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

CHAIR:

My apologies; just do it

procedurally proper.

CLERK:

3.5.01.

CHAIR:

3.5.01.

ahead, Minister sorry.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, there was a vacant

position for a period of time. There are salary increases in there, step

changes. So there's nothing really new going on there, it's just an adjustment.

MR. BRAZIL:

It's just catching up for

what was allocated.

MR. KIRBY:

I just wanted to go back to

something earlier too. Janet and I were having a conversation at the break. The

61.25 net reduction in teachers, that figure does not include the subsequent

decision to close five schools. There are an additional 11.75 positions that

will be removed as a result of the closure decision. That brings the net

reduction up to minus 73. So that's important to have that.

MR. BRAZIL:

Can we have that noted on

that spreadsheet I asked for?

MR. KIRBY:

We can put that in the table

for you.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Thank you.

Under

3.5.01, Professional Services, the $360,000 went from $380,000 that was

budgeted, $148,200 revised and $360,000. Is there a program that we're now

implementing that we didn't during the process for services that we're offering?

MR. KIRBY:

It's the $380,000 down to

the $148,000

MR. BRAZIL:

Up to (inaudible).

MR. KIRBY:

up to the $360,000?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, Sir.

MR. KIRBY:

Okay, let me see. There was

a delay in some of the initiatives that were planned. That's where the reduction

is coming from, it's a delayed implementation.

MR. BRAZIL:

Can you give me a little bit

more clarification. Do you have noted which program or service?

MR. KIRBY:

Maybe Mary can address that

specifically. So basically you have delays in early childhood learning

initiatives. That's the reduction. Then, if you look at the budgeted amount

well, basically, the amount is still in there. But there's funding related to

full-day kindergarten in there, and then there's a reduction because we're

taking $60,000 away from the Power of Play media campaign.

Mary,

do you want to or Ed?

MR. WALSH:

Some of the delays that have been noted there are associated with the early

learning framework. We have drafts of that document that are available, but

we're waiting on some continued feedback to update that particular initiative.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Thank you.

That

clarifies that. I want to move to 3.5.02, under Salaries there, the $675,100

change from a budget of $728,500 to $534,000. Can you explain? Are there new

salaries? Are there vacant salaries? Are the top-ups on the JES or the salary

increases?

MR. KIRBY:

Sure. One of the things

about the department that you should be aware of is we inherited a whole lot of

I'll call it regulatory responsibility and other activities from Child,

Youth and Family Services; so all these field activities and so on. There's

quite a lot going on in that department. It's not just people in the

Confederation Building.

There

were three vacant positions for a period of time there. That's why you see that

reduction from the $728,000 to the $534,000.

I have

a note here on the 2016-17 Estimates; there was a Northern Allowance under there

that wasn't required. A Northern Allowance to be paid out to a staff person just

wasn't needed.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Thank you.

My last

question, I think, on that

section oh no, sorry. I'm going to ask: Operating

Accounts went from $186,500 to revised $12,700 to $33,700. Is there something we

didn't use, didn't implement, didn't purchase at the time?

MR. KIRBY:

So you're looking at the

$186,500 to $33,700?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

That's funding that's not cut, if you will. It's been moved to if you look to

the Regional Operations, that's what I was referring to earlier. Funding has

been shifted out from the Policy and Programs over to the Regional Operations.

So the reduction loss there is captured in the next line.

MR. BRAZIL:

In the next line.

Okay.

Thank you.

Under

3.5.03, the salary differences there from $3.8 million in the budget to $3.481

million to $3.824 million, just some clarification on the differences there.

MR. KIRBY:

Again, like I was saying

about this sort of spiderweb of positions that we have out there all around the

province, regulatory and other responsibilities associated with child care

operations. There were seven positions that were vacant for various periods of

time that resulted in $338,000ish worth of savings.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, fair enough.

Would

there be any new positions attached with that?

MR. KIRBY:

No.

MR. BRAZIL:

Or just the continuation of

existing ones that were in the system?

MR. KIRBY:

There are no new hires

reflected there, no, just the back filling of vacant positions.

MR. BRAZIL:

Under Allowances and Grants,

the difference from $22 million budgeted to $19 million revised to a little less

than $18 million there now; what changes, what cuts would be there that would

make up that million dollars?

MR. KIRBY:

Are you looking at 09 or at

10?

MR. BRAZIL:

Under 09, yes, Allowances

and Assistance.

MR. KIRBY:

It's the subsidy program and the supplement, savings from both of those

programs. That's in the revised. So that's the 09. You're talking about the $22

million down to the $19 million, right?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, and then now at $18

million, just a little less than $18 million for this budget.

MR. KIRBY:

That's associated with both

of them. And then, I guess, that savings is reflected in the new budget.

Ed, is

there anything I'm missing out of that?

The

savings related to the Child Care Services Subsidy and the Early Learning and

Child Care Supplement, is that because we budgeted a larger amount than was

spent?

MR. WALSH:

Yes, that would be correct.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

MR. KIRBY:

Because we budgeted more

than was used, there's an effort there to rightsize it, if you will.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Thank you for that.

One

last question in this section; under Grants and Subsidies, similarly there,

budgeted $22.6 million. We went to $9 million to a little over $20 million. Is

there something we didn't get done in the revised that is now part and parcel of

the original budget lines for 201516, for now 2016-17?

MR. KIRBY:

Yes, the major change is

associated with the Operating Grant Program. I heard lots of commentary on that.

The

Operating Grant Program, the intention is to restrain, through a voluntary

program, the daily cost of child care. The issue is that it's a private industry

and a lot of the operators don't like being restrained. They are accustomed to

doing what it is they're doing.

If you

look across the province, I don't think I keep joking with one of our staff, I

keep saying are we up to 50 per cent yet? That's what I've sort of set as a goal

to try and get it up to 50 per cent, but we aren't at 50 per cent uptake of

operators or spaces in the province on the Operating Grant Program. So it's not

gone according to plan.

The

previous administration in October did make some adjustments to the program

which involved increasing the operating grant subsidy by 15 per cent where

operators could sufficiently articulate to a department that their expenses are

so much that they require 15 per cent. But even with that incentive there's a

reluctance to come along.

I think

in

part it's sort of residual because people weren't entirely happy with it

initially. We hope that as time goes on, people will get more accustomed to

there'll be success in the program and it will be observable. I think the thing

you have to realize is we have a private system so we will always have, I would

argue 10 years from now you can tell me if I'm wrong or not we'll always

have the $50-a-day operators, the sort of operators who want to have a higher

end, more expensive, whatever (inaudible) interim service, child care service.

we're going to have this system then we're always going to have operators who

don't want to participate in the Operating Grant Program. It's a program that

this is sort of me observing, this is not the position of the department sort

of has a bad rap now as a result of what the Opposition had said about it.

MR. BRAZIL:

Fair enough.

MR. KIRBY:

I'm poking fun at myself.

Things

will level out over time, I hope.

MR. BRAZIL:

And clarification will be

seen once the users start availing of the program. Fair enough.

MR. KIRBY:

Well, I don't know I mean

if we come back again next year and that's sort of down again, I wouldn't be

surprised because there are no guarantees. Despite all the efforts of staff in

the department working like dogs trying to sit down with individual operators

and convince them that this is the right way to go despite all that effort,

it's about private operators wanting to change which involves restraining their

costs.

It's

private industry, and they don't like the long arm of government trying to tell

them how to operate their business because it is, in a lot of instances, a

for-profit industry, right.

MR. BRAZIL:

Fair enough.

Madam

Chair, I'm good on 3.5.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Ms.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

I'm going to stay with

3.5.03 since I have a couple of questions there. I understand what you're saying

about the Operating Grant Program, Minister, but just to get a specific;

according to your department's note on December 7, the 201516 budget line for

the Operating Grant Program was $10.7 million. So what is the budget line this

year specifically for the Operating Grant Program?

MR. KIRBY:

I don't have that here. Is

there a particular line you're looking at for that there? Is it 09 or 10?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes, line 10, Grants and

Subsidies of 3.5.03. That's the total amounts, but the specifics around the

Operating Grant Program I have the specifics for 201516 from the department,

your December 7 note, that it was $10.7 million in last year's budget for that

specific program. I'm wondering what it is this year. I'm assuming that maybe a

fair bit of the drop might be the Operating Grant Program in that line, but

that's an assumption.

MR. KIRBY:

I'll defer to people who

know more specifics.

Mary.

MS. GOSS-PROWSE:

The actual line now this year is $10,518,538. That includes the announcement we

made in October to reinstate and increase the equipment grants. That will also

come out of that budget line now because there wasn't a budget line for it as of

this year.

MS. MICHAEL:

So it will come out of the

Operating Grant Program line?

MS. GOSS-PROWSE:

Yeah.

MS. MICHAEL:

So what was that again,

Mary, please?

MS. GOSS-PROWSE:

It's $10,518,538.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you very much.

MR. KIRBY:

I have a note here that in

the revised there's savings in the full-day kindergarten funding component of

that due to delays in filling positions.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. KIRBY:

And in the budgeted amount

we're projecting an amount of money that is, again, based on anticipated

increase and uptake in the programs under the 10-Year Child Care Strategy. There

was funding that was re-profiled to Allowances and Assistance. That was $3.5

million, so that's a big part of that. There was a million dollars that was

taken out during the line-by-line

process that we did with Treasury Board and officials. Then there's elimination

of the development of the workplace training program, a half a million dollars.

MS. MICHAEL:

Have you looked at the implications of the elimination of that. That was

something that I thought was a good initiative, but it didn't get started is my

understanding.

MR. KIRBY:

Mary.

MS. GOSS-PROWSE:

(Inaudible) had not gotten developed.

It is an additional way for people to upgrade but they have a number of other

ways as well.

The full diploma

is available through distance education at the College of the North Atlantic. We

provide bursaries to students who are upgrading for that program, and a $5,000

bursary at the end of the program for those who agree to work in the province

for two years. There are a number of ways they can access that, in person and by

distance. This was another way to access it.

Also, at this

point in time there isn't an increase to the requirement for people to upgrade,

so it wasn't seen as a priority for this budget.

MS. MICHAEL:

Minister, would there be a long-term

plan that might hopefully see bringing that back in again? Or has it just been

totally eliminated, or is it still a part of discussion for future planning?

MR. KIRBY:

We haven't had any discussion about

bringing it back.

MS. MICHAEL:

I don't mean in this year's budget, I

mean (inaudible).

MR. KIRBY:

No, I hear you. There's been no

discussion of that.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

Still under

3.5.03.09, Allowances and Assistance, just to get a specific answer here. Again,

I'm looking at the December 7 departmental note with regard to the Child Care

Services Subsidy Program.

A review had been

done and completed. The budget last year in 2015-16 was $17.4 million. The

review and revision of the program policies were in final stages. The review

includes determination of a new net income threshold for a full subsidy.

So I'm wondering

was there a new net income threshold set? Is that reflected in the budget? Is

the new net income threshold lower or higher or does it remaining the same?

MR. KIRBY:

How do I put this quite honestly? We

want to change the thresholds. We don't feel they truly reflect the current cost

of child care.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's right.

MR. KIRBY:

We decided not to proceed with that this year. It would have cost about $3

million to proceed with the adjustment to the subsidy.

I say

this frankly, I warned Treasury Board, which I sit on, that I would be back in

the process this coming year to look for that so that it could be put into the

budget for next year. In addition to the $2.2 million we're going to need to

increase the supplement which is part of our platform.

there's $5.2 million-ish that will be going to Treasury Board for so you can

take my word for that next year to increase both the subsidy and the

supplement.

It was

something that we considered. We actually had a debate about it in Treasury

Board during the line-by-line meetings. We decided to defer the decision to next

year, but it's evident that we need to adjust those figures because they're 2007

figures, I think, right?

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

I won't

get political; I really won't, but with all the other restraints from the budget

that we are now under, it certainly would have helped them to have done this.

Thank you.

Just

coming backwards then, I think I may have a couple of other questions under

3.5.02. No, I think I'm okay there.

3.5.01,

Supplies, there's a fair drop in the amount of money for Supplies, $106,100.

Could we have an explanation of that?

MR. KIRBY:

The revised is a cost

savings achieved due to the 24 and 36 month Parent Resource Kits being piloted

for the full fiscal year rather than a full implementation in the last two

quarters of the fiscal year. There's that. Other cost savings anticipated based

on just getting a better deal on what goes into those Parent Resource Kits.

The

piloting is being done over an extended period of time, over the full fiscal

year instead of half. Then the other

part is just trying to get a better deal,

better pricing on the Parent Resource Kits contents.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. KIRBY:

Oh, sorry. The budgeted

amount, it's basically an overall reduction in the kits, reducing the number of

items in the kits. So just limiting the expenditure on the kits in terms of the

frequency that they're provided and then what goes in them.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

there a hope that by next year you'd be past the pilot stage? When you get into

next year's budget, is that part of your long-term plan?

MR. KIRBY:

I anticipate that.

A lot

of this stuff is part of the 10-Year Child Care Strategy. We're approaching a

point where we're going to have to next year is the year we'll review it. It's

part of that plan, the previous administration's plan we're going to follow

through on because it's a good idea when you get to the halfway point to review

it and see what we've done, what we need to do and what sort of adjustments we

need to make. So that's what that is.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

Again,

still 3.5.01, the Grants and Subsidies, could we have an idea of what these cuts

are about? Were there fixed Grants and Subsidies that got cut?

MR. KIRBY:

Okay.

The

first one is the reduction from $746,100 to the $535,700.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. KIRBY:

Staffing is part of it.

MS. MICHAEL:

What would that staffing be,

please?

MR. KIRBY:

A vacant program development

specialist position I don't understand this note here inability to reassign

work for early literacy work at the department.

Janet,

do you

MS. MICHAEL:

Was the Early Literacy

Foundations cut? Was that affected by this?

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

Sorry, Ms. Michael, could you said that again?

MS. MICHAEL:

Pardon?

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

Could you repeat that, sorry?

MS. MICHAEL:

The cut that the minister is

speaking about, does that relate to cuts in the Early Literacy Foundations cut?

MS. VIVIAN-WALSH:

The revised amount was we've had a really difficult time recruiting the

literacy facilitators for this program. It's been an ongoing problem for several

years, actually.

We have

continued on with the Every Child Ready to Read program and provided monies to

the public libraries for that one, but we were really struggling and thus the

savings were due to recruitment and retention of that.

The

other comment the minister mentioned, we had a vacant program development

specialist and thus there was an inability to keep moving the work through the

department in that area. So the savings were in the revised, about $210,000.

really have struggled with finding appropriate facilitators for that second

program.

MS. MICHAEL:

May I assume from the

reasoning that it's still $535,000. You don't expect to be spending money on

that this year?

MR. KIRBY:

It was an effort to

rightsize it again based on that. The most of it is associated with an effort to

have that better reflect it's interesting that we do have this problem

recruiting people for these positions because my immediate response, when I was

told of this was, wouldn't we have aspiring teachers who are out there looking

to get experience and so on. Anyways, it's a pre-existing problem that we expect

to continue.

MS. MICHAEL:

Due to what you just said,

would the remuneration be equivalent, though, to aspiring teachers who may have

their degrees already if they were actually teaching would be getting a

certain amount of money. Would the money in this program be equivalent?

MR. KIRBY:

I think the pay is pretty

reasonable for this? I can't tell you what it is exactly but I did ask that same

question myself. It may not be up to a level of say what the mean income is for

a salaried teacher but I think the remuneration is fairly reasonable.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you.

They

are all my questions for that section, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Ms. Michael.

We'll

call the subheading.

CLERK:

3.5.01 to 3.5.04.

CHAIR:

Shall 3.5.01 to 3.5.04

inclusive carry?

All

those in favour, aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.5.01 through 3.5.04 carried.

CLERK:

3.6.01

CHAIR:

3.6.01

Mr.

Brazil.

MR. BRAZIL:

Madam Chair, just one quick question there around the Grants and Subsidies,

obviously the change in the amounts.

Can you

explain, Minister, exactly what that incurs there? Why the decrease?

MR. KIRBY:

So from the $11.293 million

to the $10.722 million we've got $59,000 for JES again. We've got costs for the

CBS library move that are not going to be needed; savings from the lease payment

delayed opening. I'm waiting to get a question about that lease in the House of

Assembly for the CBS library. There's a big savings as a result of that, and

then a further reduction of $300,000. So it's JES, moving costs, savings from

the lease and an additional reduction.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

That's

the only question I have for that budget subhead.

CHAIR:

If you want, it's just

libraries and the infrastructure, do you want to continue on and use your 10

minutes?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yeah, I ask the indulgence

of the Third Party. I have to leave at 11 o'clock so there are only a couple of

quick headings there.

CHAIR:

And then we can still come

back and call the subheads separately.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, we'll come back and

call for those after.

Under

4.1.01, Infrastructure, the Salaries difference there of a little over $2

million from the revised; can you explain the additional costing there on

Salaries?

MR. KIRBY:

The additional cost due to

salaries increases in pay, 3 per cent; step changes; planned savings weren't

what they were anticipated to be; increased funding for co-op students; and

there was no allowance for attrition management the previous year.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay.

MR. KIRBY:

So that's the bulk, that's

all of it there.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Thank you.

Purchased Services; the difference from what was budgeted to revised, but then

they revised up to the $200,000.

MR. KIRBY:

So the savings in Purchased

Services were associated with fewer insurance claims. So there's repair and

maintenance savings of $1.5 million or a reduction, if you will. Then there was

an increase associated with full-day kindergarten, a little over $400,000.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay. Thank you on that.

I just

have a couple of quick questions on 4.1.02, Infrastructure.

MR. KIRBY:

Yes.

MR. BRAZIL:

Some clarification there on

the major differences between Professional Services and Purchased Services from

the revised budgets to the estimated budget for 2016-17.

MR. KIRBY:

You're talking about, sort

of, the leap from $11 million down to $3 million, right?

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes, and then from $3

million to $14 million.

MR. KIRBY:

I'm going to go to Ingrid

maybe, but I think this might be associated with my commentary the other day

about aggressive schedules, but let me see if I'm right about that.

CHAIR:

Excuse me. Can you just

introduce yourself first for the purpose of the Broadcast Centre downstairs?

Just say your name before you speak.

MS. CLARKE:

Ingrid Clarke.

CHAIR:

Thank you. Sorry.

MS. CLARKE:

So the reduction from $11 million down to $3.5 million; the difference is $9.5

million. It's cash flow changes on major capital projects following a review of

realistic cash flow requirements for '15-'16 by Transportation and Works and

Education and Early Childhood Development.

MR. BRAZIL:

Okay, that clarifies that

one.

That

additional cash flow would be added in to the services for '16-'17 to reflect

MR. KIRBY:

To put it in layman's terms

that stuff is still being built, but it is, sort of, more slowly being built

MR. BRAZIL:

The money is moved.

MR. KIRBY:

than we had hoped.

MR. BRAZIL:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

Because if all those schools

were open for September, then obviously

MR. BRAZIL:

That cash out would be in

and out.

MR. KIRBY:

It's just an adjustment of

cash flow.

It has

nothing to do with the projects that were deferred and so on because, remember,

a lot of the things like Coley's Point and whatever, the cash flows for those

were really further out anyway, right. So you think about the Riverside

extension and those things. Those cash flows are really further out in a lot of

cases.

MR. BRAZIL:

So that would cover

Professional Services and Purchased Services, I assume?

MR. KIRBY:

Well, the Purchased Services

here, I've got a long list of what those things are, like additional modular

classrooms there's a million dollars; there's the rebuild, so that's sort of the

transiting out of the William Gillett in Labrador; Conception Bay South, the new

K to seven; capital for full-day kindergarten is $4.8 million.

We have

the Gander Academy. That's the one where there's sort of this partial demolition

and reconstruction project, sort of small money now. We have a new four to six

in Gander and the major extension going on at St. Peter's in Mount Pearl. The

Witless Bay-Mobile situation; remember the plan was to build a new school. Now

we're going to build an extension on to Mobile Central High instead of building

a new school.

The

Extension to Elizabeth Park Elementary; that's sort of transitioning out of cash

flows for that one. A new K to six in Paradise, the Octagon Pond area school; I

figure they're going to come up with a more creative name than that. Planning

for future CBS capacity, there's money in there for that.

Transitioning out for Bayside Academy, which is quite a nice school; a new five

to nine in Portugal Cove-St. Philip's, $15 million; Roncalli Elementary

redevelopment is $316,000; Waterford Valley High, again sort of transitioning

out on that one; Virginia Park Elementary, sort of good news there, that project

is still moving along. There have been probably more snafus with that one than

any other school project in the history of building schools, but eventually it

will get done. There's $8.1 million, almost $8.2 million. We have St. Peter's

Elementary, $3.7 million; then the new one for Torbay, et cetera, almost $13

million.

There

has been a call for a new school, like in the interest of transparency, for the

French first language community here in St. John's. They want a new school

built. That's not even in the previous administration's long-term infrastructure

plan. So instead of that we're doing the modular classroom addition to cole des

Grands-Vents up on Ridge Road just to try and deal with capacity issues there.

We have constitutional obligations to the Francophone right holders, so we're

trying as hard as we can to stay out of court, if you will, because if we

violate their charter rights then we would rightly be before a judge. So in an

effort to mitigate that, we're adding a modular now. That's not to say down the

road we might come to some other solution and that is everything from building a

new school, down to other solutions.

I think

we all have to be very cognizant of the fact that we do have legal obligations

to French-as-a-first-language right holders, both on the West Coast where

there's a significant concentration on the Port au Port Peninsula and then here

in St. John's.

We'll

have to see, I don't know if there's going to it's been argued in part that

some of the increases we've seen in St. John's and area are associated with

economics. People coming here who are French-as-a-first-language speakers, who

come from other provinces or countries associated with oil or mineral

development. What we're seeing is sort of a winding down of mega projects.

Whether that's going to have an impact or not, we'll have to see.

There

are three really different stakeholder groups that we're dealing with, with

these residents of the province. There's the board itself, the school board,

then there's the francophone association, then the Federation of Francophones

and the federation of francophone parents. So there are a lot of stakeholders

here that we've been meeting with trying to find solutions to the problems that

we have in that side of schooling.

It's

only five schools, but it's a huge responsibility for the government, really.

MR. BRAZIL:

Fair enough.

appreciate the indulgence of the Table and the Third Party. I'm good on the

questions. I've covered off all the headings.

I thank

the minister and his staff for their co-operation. I look forward to some of the

information that we've asked for, being shared with us.

MR. KIRBY:

What I'll do is I'll give

you I've got some other materials not associated, specifically, with the

Estimates but I'll give you this

section so you can see the notes that I'm

(inaudible).

MR. BRAZIL:

I appreciate that. We'll get

a copy for the Third Party, also. We'll take care of that.

Okay. I

appreciate that.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Michael.

MS. MICHAEL:

I'm going to start where we

just stopped. Might as well go backward again, 4.1.02.

CHAIR:

3.6.01.

Oh,

sorry. Say that again.

MS. MICHAEL:

4.1.02, where we just ended.

I'll start there and go backwards. Is that okay?

CHAIR:

Okay.

MS. MICHAEL:

Just to keep the same

thought going.

probably should know the answer to this, Minister, but is there any federal

money at all with regard to provinces maintaining the constitutional right of

French speaking in the country or is the cost totally on the shoulder of the

province?

MR. KIRBY:

We get money through the

Official Languages Agreements heritage Canada.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. KIRBY:

It's negotiated periodically

for a number of years.

This is

a subject of consternation for some of the francophone organizations because the

funding comes to the provincial government and then we administrate it on their

behalf. We have to pay out for the five schools, but you've got to look at board

operations. There has to be monies for that.

There's

a program, say, for people who are studying French at the university. They'd go

and immerse in a cultural milieu or whatever. They go to Quebec for programs. We

have an obligation to provide some level of service in French, say, at the

university, beyond that, then in the rest of the post-secondary system and child

care. So we administrate it.

They'd

like nothing more for us to sort of get a cheque and then write a cheque for

them for the same amount. Well, I don't know, they'd have to figure out which of

the three organizations would administrate the money too. So there's a whole lot

to it.

We are

getting money. It's not all of it because the federal government provides us

money in recognition of their obligation, but under all of the court decisions

that we've seen come down, there's a whole lot of responsibility on the

province.

If we

got sued and were dinged pretty hard, we couldn't just pass it over to the

federal government because, in the end, it's the province's responsibility.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

That's a long answer to

that, I know, but I've found this to be one of the more complicated issues in

the department, to be frank, because most people don't even understand FFL.

Everybody thinks it's almost like French immersion or something like that. But

this is not at all that. This is people have a right, in Canada, to be educated

in their own language.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's correct.

MR. KIRBY:

In the instances of these

province so it's something that's relatively new, I think, trying to accommodate

people properly in terms of the history of the province, if you will, and

something that I just think is extremely challenging.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right. Thank you.

So no

money for capital, but for programs?

MR. KIRBY:

No. I mean in terms of

capital for us, there may be capital funding from the federal government at some

point for child care because, as everybody remembers, Trudeau's campaign

included money for child care. He talked a lot about it being associated with

infrastructure spending.

I'm

meeting I think it's this Sunday in Halifax with other provincial ministers

with responsibility for early learning and care around our combined strategy for

dealing with the federal minister. I've spoken with federal Minister Duclos

three times now about that. So we may be able to get funding for child care

infrastructure in the next 12 months or so from the federal government, but

that's not

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay.

MR. KIRBY:

Janet is giving me a note

here.

There

was federal money provided for cole des Grands-Vents. As you're probably aware,

the facility up on Ridge Road is not only a school, there's a community space

aspect of it as well.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

Part of their argument has

been that the population of students has encroached on some of that community

space, and there's some debate about whether or not that's actually the case.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right. Thank you.

Still

under 4.1.02, I don't know if you have there in your notes, what are the schools

that are scheduled to be renovated for the full-day kindergarten?

MR. KIRBY:

I'll have to get that for

you. I've misspoke on this in the past, but there are about 100 renovations. Not

100 schools, but there have been, basically, 100 renovations.

If you

look at the press release the department sent out in January indicating we were

continuing with the plan for full-day kindergarten, there's a list there, I

believe.

MS. MICHAEL:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

I think there are eight

schools somebody can correct me if I'm wrong that had extensions and eight

schools that got modulars. Is that what it was?

OFFICIAL:

There are four schools that got extensions.

MR. KIRBY:

Sorry, four schools that got

extensions I told you I misspoke on this before; four schools that got the

extensions done and eight that had the modulars.

MS. MICHAEL:

That's the figure that still

holds. I remember your press release and I remember the details.

OFFICIAL:

Nine.

MR. KIRBY:

Sorry, nine now.

There's

been no serious change in any of the infrastructure planning that the previous

administration had put in place. The class-size cap changes in the budget don't

affect that grade level. The combined-grades initiative does not apply to

kindergarten.

MS. MICHAEL:

Right.

MR. KIRBY:

So it's not impacted by

that. The only challenge continues to be the team teaching; the 28 students and

the two teachers.

If you

think about how the combined grades and the class-size caps, as that filters out

through the system you're going to see probably freeing up of some classroom

space, potentially. Then when we get the new schools built in Torbay, Portugal

Cove-St. Philip's and Octagon Pond, you're going to see freeing up of space in

Beachy Cove Elementary, Holy Trinity and so on. The problem is going to be

largely resolved once we can get these new schools built and get the students

shifted into them.

fact, schools like Beachy Cove and Holy Trinity will then have surplus space

because of the modulars that are piled up behind the schools. Then there'll be a

debate about whether or not we should move them somewhere else. It's a temporary

problem that is not lost on anybody, that we have these space limitations and we

want the new program.

This

school year will be the challenge, but once we get into those new schools and

the year after that, it's going to be night and day for these kindergarten

teachers and for a lot of other elementary school teachers on the Northeast

Avalon. It's going to be quite a change for them and cause for celebration, and

I take no credit for it at all because it was the previous administration's

initiative.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay, thank you.

I don't

have any questions on 4.1.01, because I think you answered the questions for Mr.

Brazil and I had the same queries.

Under

3.6.01 you don't really need to look at the line because my question is a

general question. Obviously, I do have concerns about the cuts to libraries. I'm

wondering could you outline your proposed plan for the closing of the libraries

and maintaining regional ones?

MR. KIRBY:

In the government renewal

process the provincial libraries board came forward with four different

recommendations of varying degrees of impact. Some of the problems we have in

the library system today is that it's been tinkered around the edges with a lot,

which has caused significant curtailment in the numbers of hours of operation,

where we have libraries in some communities being open for as little as twelve

hours a week. I think the average is 24 hours a week. So we have that problem.

We have collections that have not been significantly invested in just because of

the inability to do it for the 95 libraries that we have.

On top

of that, we have significant pressures as it relates to new leases. The CBS

lease and the Corner Brook lease, I mean these are leases that we're locked in

to for in the case of CBS 25 years for $250,000 a year, which is ironic

considering we contributed millions of dollars to the construction of the new

municipal building in CBS, yet there's no space for the library. So we're

actually helping to build a new building. We have those pressures and other

issues associated with it.

Officials in the department have been working with the administration of the

libraries board to come to an agreement on what the changes should be to move to

a regional provision of library services, as opposed to the community-level

services we have now. So they're discussing that.

I don't

anticipate any we'll have to see how soon the decision is made. They're

considering sort of the counter proposal that has come from the department.

There may be changes to that, but what we're hoping to do is to have a system

that has more access, has more hours or a minimum number of hours of operation

per week, more investment in library collections, more access to e-books and to

books by mail for people who are, obviously, beyond access to the libraries.

Because there are lots of communities, isolated communities that currently have

no library and have no access to them at all, even within the current model.

That's

basically it in broad strokes. They'll be libraries affected by whatever

decision the board makes. We're going to work with them to try and transition to

the new model, if that's something they decide to do but at this point, they

haven't made any decision.

MS. MICHAEL:

But it's a decision that has

been made as you continue discussing with one another, I would assume.

MR. KIRBY:

The decision will be made in

the next couple of months, I anticipate, the final decision.

Like I

said, the board submitted four proposals to the department as part of the

Government Renewal Initiative process that started in January. They've been

working with the Economics and Statistics Branch in Finance.

We're

largely relying on recommendations and the expertise of the board administration

at this point. If they make changes to the proposal that the department has made

to them, we'll have to work with them to ensure that it's implemented.

MS. MICHAEL:

Okay. Thank you.

MR. KIRBY:

We'll see. I think it's far

from done, but we'll have to see what happens. We'll see what they decide.

MS. MICHAEL:

Thank you.

That

ends my questions, Chair.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MS. MICHAEL:

Before you do that, just to

thank the staff because they've been very helpful in their response to my

questions.

CHAIR:

Before we move to two or

three other procedural things here, I believe Mr. Parsons has a question.

MR. K. PARSONS:

(Inaudible) just a couple.

Minister, if they were asked before, I apologize, okay?

MR. KIRBY:

That's okay. I'm accustomed

to repeating myself.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I have a question. I'll go

to this one first on the provincial library board. I know the reduction there is

about $600,000 this year. I had some great workings in the last couple of months

with the library board and had some good results in my area.

What the reductions are going to mean to

MR. KIRBY:

It's $300,000.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Three hundred?

MR. KIRBY:

I think so, yeah.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Oh, the resources board is

included in that, okay.

that's not going to mean any I know there was a commitment made to the library

in my area that the regular money that was funded there beforehand would stay.

Are they all staying with the

MR. KIRBY:

I don't anticipate any

changes to the Torbay library.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

MR. KIRBY:

Because if you look at it,

it's a population-growth centre.

One of

the things we heard, continually, during the Government Renewal Initiative

consultations was that people had an openness to the provision of regional

services.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

One of the challenges we're

struggling with right now, whether it's libraries or schooling or other

government services, is that we've had a significant shift in population to the

Northeast Avalon. People who have moved in here, whether they've come by way of

Alberta or what have you. Those people live in Kenmount Terrance. They live in

your community. They live all around the City of St. John's. They expect the

same level of service, and better, than people have in rural parts of the

province. Then you have people who continue to choose to live in rural

Newfoundland, who want the same level of service that they've become accustomed

to and, in fact, as good as the people in town have.

So the

challenge is trying to deliver that service. We're sort of stretched. This is no

one government's fault. This is a demographic issue. We're being stretched in

that we're trying to deliver the same level of service to people who have moved

in here, while maintaining the same level of service out there. It's very, very

difficult to do.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I understand that. I also

understand the library itself, when I looked at it and looked at the report,

where there are 26 that are in municipal buildings. There are so many that are

in provincial buildings and stuff like that and then there are so many on their

own. So, obviously, the costs of running these libraries vary.

MR. KIRBY:

We've got 95 of them. As I

said, government has not, in the past, revitalized them. If you look at what's

going on in other provinces, by and large if you do an interjurisdictional scan

you'll find that libraries are oftentimes municipal operations rather than

provincial.

But

we're being left behind the rest of the Western world when it comes to

libraries. The new one they have in Halifax or the metro Toronto Reference

Library, they have things like makerspaces where you can go in and you can do

sewing or you can use 3-D printers or you can use AutoCAD. You can use things

associated with technology or automotive. There are all kinds of things going

on, but we're not doing that.

A lot

of our libraries are basically boiled down to a place where people go in and

check their email. I think we have to make a decision about whether or not what

we're offering is a library which is a multi-resource. It's like a

multi-functional resource for communities or regions or towns or cities or what

have you, or are we offering a service where people can go in and do their

banking online.

library is a place where you go to use a computer. There's no doubt about that,

but increasingly and people will tell this who work in the system

increasingly the service is diminished so much by the reduction in hours, the

reduction in investment in services, the shift to digital access, the text, all

the people reading, who can afford to, read on here instead of in a book. All of

that is creating incredible pressure.

So if

we don't reduce the numbers of libraries I'm being very frank with you in

communities, the only other alternative is to further reduce investment in

collections it's pretty bad as it is and to further reduce hours because a

lot of the cost is associated with human resources. So do we want robust

libraries that have all the things that other jurisdictions have, or do we want

a place that's open five hours a week so people can go do their online banking?

That's basically what we're facing.

With

Torbay and places like CBS, they will have libraries because there's a

significant population around them, but I don't think all 95 of them are going

to survive in the long term. A lot of it has to do with what I talked about

initially, it's a population shift.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I agree with you 100 per

cent, but today it seems like just getting involved, how I got involved the

last little while, I didn't realize have many people needed it and used it. They

use it for different things, whether it's a household that's noisy and they need

to go study somewhere that's quiet or a senior that needs access to a computer

that doesn't have it at home. There are all kinds of different usages like that

and programs that are offered that help children before going to school, whether

it's a reading class or something like that.

They do

provide a huge benefit to the community. I believe and I know you made the

statement earlier municipalities should be involved because it is a service

they're offering their residents in their towns, but we have to work together

with them to make sure that it stays afloat.

MR. KIRBY:

Sure. I think the other

thing about it you're right, one of the, I guess, critical issues as it

relates to potential library closures is the provision of those services, like

early literacy programs. But we have family resource centres scattered all

across the province. If the issue is the delivery of early literacy programs or

book clubs or what have you for children that's something I agree we need to

have and probably should have more of then can we deliver that service through

family resource centres rather than through libraries? So that's an alternative.

It's something we need to explore.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Okay.

I'm

getting down on my time now. I want to ask a question. I know you spoke there

and probably this question, again, I apologize, Minister, if this was asked

already relating to full-day kindergarten. You said there were nine modular

classrooms and four schools that got extension. Will we be ready for all those

schools in September?

MR. KIRBY:

We'll be ready, there's no

doubt about that. We'll have the right numbers of teachers. We'll have people

who have received professional development. We've been doing a lot of

communication to parents. Everybody who's taken

part in KinderStart knows what's

going to happen.

Do we

have enough space? I would say barely. I mean that's the fact of the matter. The

biggest issue with full-day kindergarten is accommodating the space. Where

people have said, oh, there are too many children in a classroom, officials from

the department have gone out and looked at it. As far as we're concerned we have

enough space, barely.

Are the

classrooms the same size as the classrooms in the new schools we're building?

Certainly not, but we're designing schools now based on the 21st century as

opposed to the previous designs and so on. Places like Coley's Point are 60

years old. We've got a dozen schools in the province that are of similar age as

Coley's Point, so the infrastructure is different because it was built at a

different time when we had a different understanding. We're not breaking any

rules; there are no fire ordinances that we're violating or anything like that.

One of

the things that we're finding is that teachers have a lot of stuff teachers

have a lot of stuff. They have a lot of we send out books and it may be

something we ought to look at too. We send out materials from the department to

teachers so they keep it in the classroom. They have their own bookshelves and

they have their own you think about primary grades, the smallest kids, there's

a lot more stuff because it's play-based learning.

So you

have a place where you can do a puppet show or a place you can do whatever, a

playhouse. All these different things are a lot of stuff. If you're going from a

half-day program to a full-day program, you're trying to accommodate all these

things that teachers have. That's really the challenge. The challenge isn't

having enough seats in the classroom; it's having enough space to fit all the

stuff.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I know in my district the

school in Pouch Cove was built in the '90s which was built for a declining

population at the time. The classroom sizes are to accommodate 20 children, so

it's a real struggle when you put a little bit more than 20 children in

classrooms that are that small.

question is basically with the nine modular classrooms and the extensions, will

they be ready?

MR. KIRBY:

Yeah, I haven't had any

indication that there is any delay. Is there a delay?

OFFICIAL:

They'll be ready

MR. K. PARSONS:

They'll be ready. Okay, it's

just a question because you talk to parents and they want to know whether the

school is going to be.

MR. KIRBY:

Those things are all going

to be done but, again, we know there are going to be challenges, right.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I have a question; it's the

last question I'll ask you now. I was looking at the budget and I was just

trying to figure out how you figure out whether you're going to defer it or

delay it until three years, or you cancel the school altogether. How is the

decision made on something like that? I was looking at some of the schools

MR. KIRBY:

The one about Paradise is

interesting because there was over $100 million worth of new schools promised

for Paradise. Well, the one thing is we have the use for the School for the

Deaf, and the board calls it swing space because right now the Octagon Pond area

school is a School for the Deaf. The School for the Deaf is an excellent

facility. It's got a theatre, which parents love. It's got a huge gym. I can't

say enough good about it. Everyone wants it, too, by the way. The French crowd

want it; the College of the North Atlantic want it. Everybody wants to get their

hands on that school. Transportation and Works, it will be the last thing they

are going to give up.

So that

school is going to be used in the place of the intermediate. What I said earlier

about the class-size caps and the combined grades that might free up some space.

We have to look at whether maybe there are other alternatives. Like one thing

you think about, well, instead of having a K-6 school you could have a K-7

school, but that might involve having an extension on one of the existing

schools.

I think

the other thing that I thought was most interesting when I came into the

position was the whole business of the senior high school in Paradise. So I said

why do we need a senior high school in Paradise? Because aren't the kids

currently going to whatever school, like Mount Pearl. They said, yes, the

thinking was I don't know whose thinking it was, I'm not going to blame

anybody. Somebody's thinking was, well, the students out in Galway have to go to

school somewhere. Well, maybe they'll go to school in Mount Pearl. So there

won't be any room anymore for the students from Paradise.

thought, sure, nobody lives in Galway. I'm not convinced yet that there's going

to be a whole lot of people out there. How soon, is the other question? Not only

that, don't you think the people out in Galway, once they get out there, will

want their own school too? So making decisions about, well maybe there won't be

enough room in Mount Pearl because the people in Galway will be there; there's

no evidence to suggest we need to build a $60 million senior high school because

of that.

don't see any enrolment pressures that we can't manage with the existing at

least in the intermediate term, there's nothing we can't manage with the School

for the Deaf and the way children are already accommodated.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Can I ask one last question?

MR. KIRBY:

You said that last one was

the last question.

CHAIR:

He should have come at 9

o'clock.

MR. KIRBY:

Go ahead.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I'm just concerned with I

know there's a lot of new school construction on the go and some have been told

when they're going to be opening. I heard you answer some questions in the House

on it also.

MR. KIRBY:

I was asking to be asked the

questions.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I know.

I'm

pretty involved in talking to parents and whatnot and it's so important that we

be upfront with the parents to know when things are going to be. So do we have a

plan for the schools that are under construction now for ?

MR. KIRBY:

When I came into the

department, one of the first things I realized was these new schools: Octagon

Pond, Portugal Cove-St. Philip's and Torbay, that there had been commitments

made that suggested they would be open for September. It became obvious to me

that was not going to be the case.

Octagon

Pond, there's a possibility

OFFICIAL:

It'll be ready.

MR. KIRBY:

Octagon Pond is going to be

ready. As I say that, I made sure there was communication sent out to all

parents from the district and there were meetings held with school councils to

advise them of delays or potential delays.

When it

comes to the new school in Torbay, I think we're looking at delayed until

basically after Christmas because you can't be shifting children in the middle

of, say, a semester if you will. If the school is ready in November, that would

be an awful lot of chaos to create. It's just as well to wait until January.

Now,

unless something has changed, Portugal Cove-St. Philip's is the one that's

really behind. We're looking at winter 2017, right?

OFFICIAL:

Yes.

MR. KIRBY:

My take on it, to be quite

honest with you, it'll have to boil down to, we'll have to discuss it with the

school community whether or not the disruption, at that point in the school year

let's say it's this time in the 2016-17 school year, so it's April 2017,

that's potentially what we're looking at. Is it worth the disruption to your

children, your teachers et cetera, to move them now?

that's the way I've chalked it up. The district will have to decide. We'll have

input into it, but they'll have to decide what they're going to do because it's

a significant disruption most of the way through the school year. Is it worth

the disruption for two months? Some parents might say yes. I don't think we're

having a vote on it or anything but we're certainly going to have to consult

people.

MR. K. PARSONS:

I just believe that as long

as you let the parents know and give them proper communication

MR. KIRBY:

Yes.

MR. K. PARSONS:

It's the unknown and stuff

like this that's the problem. So if it is the point of the school going to open

in the middle of the year, if they know that, then they'll feel a whole lot

better about it, rather than and that's just what I'm (inaudible).

MR. KIRBY:

We even sent a notification

out to the Octagon Pond area parents to tell them there might be a delay. Now,

it's looking like that's not going to happen, but this is the sort of stuff that

keeps me awake at night. People are out there anticipating one thing and we

have information.

We were

elected on a pledge of openness and transparency. If you have the information,

give it to them because there are a lot of problems created if you don't do

that.

MR. K. PARSONS:

Anyway, Madam Chair, that's

my questions for the day.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Okay. Thank you very much.

we'll call the subheading.

CLERK:

3.6.01 to

CHAIR:

Oh, I'm sorry.

MR. REID:

I just had a question on

libraries (inaudible).

CHAIR:

Sure. Do you want to just

state your name?

MR. REID:

Scott Reid.

I just

wanted to look at the total expenditures for libraries last year. It was

$11,483,000. That was an increase of about a million dollars from the previous

year, 2014-15.

I'm

just wondering how that extra money was spent and why the over expenditure

there?

MR. KIRBY:

The extra money was spent on

things like expensive leases that we have. There were additional costs

associated with there was some damage to the Port aux Basques library. There

was a flood. That was $222,000, almost $223,000. There are always HR costs. As

you know, there's fairly generous severance paid out to people and they build up

unused vacation and so on. So we had retirement costs of almost $300,000.

That's

why there were additional costs. That's what the over expenditure was. You can't

anticipate things like the flooding.

MR. REID:

Yes, but there was also an

increase from the 2014-15, a planned increase. What was the purpose of that

increase and how

MR. KIRBY:

I think it was to

accommodate things like the new leases. In the instance of the CBS library, the

moving costs and the new building construction is somewhere in the order of

$330,000. The lease for the Corner Brook library is about $200,000. That's over

half of it there.

MR. REID:

Yeah.

listened to your comments about the changing needs and roles of libraries, the

sort of idea of regional libraries and that. I just offer a comment in caution.

terms of best practices, we also have to be just as vigilant in looking at best

practices in small rural libraries. We're in a situation where one of the main

principles in the strategic plan of the library and also the library annual

reports from the Library Association is universality.

I think

we need to look at what are the possibilities for excellence in rural libraries,

as much as we have to look at excellence in regional libraries as well. Because

I think the nature of rural Newfoundland is we have to have a

made-in-Newfoundland system of regional libraries.

When we

compare ourselves to other jurisdictions, they have different sort of governance

models. A lot of areas in rural Newfoundland don't have municipal governments

that can take on the role of the libraries. So I think we have to be cautious

about how we proceed with any changes to libraries.

We have

to keep in mind this principle of universality. We can't have libraries,

regionally, and expect people to travel an hour and a half to visit it because

it just won't happen.

MR. KIRBY:

The work that's been done

with Economics and Statistics, the officials in the department and with the

libraries board administration is modeled on the community clinics model.

They

have a model that they use for health care, in particular, but this is something

that was also utilized when they were doing the redrawing of the electoral

districts. They have this community clinics model. It models commuter patterns.

Where people go to access health services, where they go to the dentist, they do

their banking, they get their groceries and so on.

actually think this particular information is also used in market research. When

somebody is talking about investing in a new shopping centre or if you are

building a new child care centre. That same information they're using is

utilized for that. So it's: Where are people going?

So I

guess the whole idea of having a number of regional libraries is that if

somebody goes to the doctor or they go to the dentist, they go to pick up their

groceries, they go to work, that they would access library services the same as

they would access health services or other services.

MR. REID:

Yes, I'm familiar with the

functional regions research that's been done and the usage of it, but to apply

market research and population patterns from one situation to looking at

libraries, I think, is a leap. I don't think the research has been done in terms

of how far people would travel to use a library.

MR. KIRBY:

Sure.

MR. REID:

Although we've looked at how

far people would travel to go to work and how far people would travel to go to a

hospital and things like that, I think to use that same research, that same

Stats Canada information to make a decision about how far children would be able

to travel to use a library would be a bit of a leap. I think we should be

cautious about applying that model to this situation.

MR. KIRBY:

Yeah.

MR. REID:

I would ask the minister and

the department to use caution.

MR. KIRBY:

I understand. I don't think

that's the policy discussion that we would have at the Estimates Committee

though. I understand. I take your point.

MR. REID:

Yes.

CHAIR:

Okay, so now everybody is

good with questions?

CLERK:

3.6.01 to 4.1.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

3.6.01 to 4.1.02 inclusive.

Shall

it carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, subheads 3.6.01 through 4.1.02 carried.

CHAIR:

Shall the total carry?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR:

Shall I report the Estimates

of the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development carried without

amendment?

All

those in favour?

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against?

Carried.

motion, Estimates of the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development

carried without amendment.

CHAIR:

A couple of quick things

we'll do before I call for a motion to adjourn, just to read into the record,

because I didn't do this at the beginning. The Member for Conception Bay East

Bell Island, Mr. Brazil, replaced the Member for Fortune Bay Cape La Hune, Ms.

Perry. The Member for Cape St. Francis, Mr. Kevin Parsons, replaced the Member

for Topsail Paradise, Mr. Davis.

Some

minutes were circulated right before we started. I'm just wondering if I could

have a mover to adopt the minutes from April 20, Department of Seniors, Wellness

and Social Development.

AN HON. MEMBER:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

Ms. Michael if you're not a

Committee member, I'll just move to the Member for Harbour Main. Is that okay?

AN HON. MEMBER:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

Thank you very much.

motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

The time and date for the

next Estimates meeting is 5:30 on Wednesday, tomorrow night, and that is Justice

and Public Safety.

I will

now ask for a motion to adjourn.

MR. LANE:

So moved.

CHAIR:

So moved.

Thank

you very much everybody for your co-operation in Estimates.

motion, the Committee adjourned.