Volume XL Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Third Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas I Nwmbersm 28 May 1987

The House met at 3:00p .m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Th~ hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD : Mr. Speaker, I would like to take a few minutes of the time of the House time today to see if we can get unanimous consent to send a letter of congratulations to four young Newfoundlanders who are among thirty-one Canadian winners of this year•s Terry Fox Humanitarian Award. The winners are Gerry Smith of Lourdes, Carla Pittman of Windsor, Tina Brake of Trout River and Kelly Moret of St. John • s.

This is a national award and is in the form of a university scholarship valued at $3,000 annually for a maximum of four years. I think it is a fine accomplishment on the part of these four young Newfoundlanders, and I thi~k this House should recognize it by sending a letter of congratulations from this House to each of the four. _ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, as a former Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth and speaking for my colleagues on this side, we would certainly like to associate ourselves with the motion put forth by the han. the L2634 Vol XL May 28, 1987 " ---·--~-~ "----· gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward). A couple of years ago, I had the opportunity to visit and participate with a number of young Newfoundland students at the Terry Fox Center in Ottawa: It is certainly a worthwhile programme and one that the Province -is proud to participate in.

So, on behalf of my colleagues here, we are very, very happy to associate ourselves with the motion from the hon. gentleman . MR. FENWICK : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: On behalf of our caucus, we also j o i n in the s up p o r·t for the recommendation and will be quite happy to see the letters sent. MR. SPEAKER: Before calling Statements by Ministers, I have great pleasure in welcoming a large number of students to the galleries today. There are sixty Grade V students from Holy Name of Mary Elementary School, in Marystown, with their teachers, Mrs . Marie Pittman, Mrs.

Regina Brake, Mrs. Linda Tobin and Ms Betty Collins. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome twenty Grade VI students and two teachers, Mr. Hodder and Mr. c. White, from the Pentecostal Elementary School, · in Bishop 1 s Falls . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 50 R2634

·----··~-----·----- MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome thirty-six Grade V students and four adults from St. Francis Xavier School, in Windsor. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Statements by Ministers MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: I am very pleased, as Acting Minister of Mines, to be able to make the following statement today on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Mines (Mr. Dinn). Mr. Speaker, I would like to update hon. members on a currently out-of-production mining property on the Baie Verte Peninsula.

I am referring to the Consolidated Rambler Mines Limited ~roperty near Baie Verte which ceased production five years ago. The close-down took pla·ce at the end of April, 1982.- Mr. Speaker, as a result of legislation enacted by this government in 1976 and amended in 1980, the Mineral Act provides that any mining property from which there has been no production for a period of five years become subject to reversion to the Crown. Reversion is not automatic, however; it takes places by order of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council.

I would like to take this opportunity to inform hon. members that the Lieutenant-Governor in L2635 May 28, 1987 ~ Vol XL Council has ordered that the Consolidated Rambler Mines Limited property revert to the Crown. Consolidated Rambler Mines Limited produced base and precious metals from the Baie Uerte Peninsula property during the period 1964 to 1982. Four· separate ore bodies were mined primarily for their copper content although some zinc, gold and silver were recovered as well. Most buildings and equipment, including the mill, remain intact on the property.

Three has been no exploration on the properties involved since 1982 even though they are considered to have potential for the discovery of gold mineralization in addition to a further base metals potential. Hon. members are ·aware from rE!Cent industry releases that the Baie Verte Peninsula area is emerging as one of the highest potential areas for gold mineralization in the Province. It is, therefore, an opportune time to free up the Rambler properties for exploration and potential re-development.

Government is taking the necessary steps to comply with the reversion order and will also decide immediately on an appropriate course of action to encourage renewed activity on the dormant properties involved. This is the second time since the enactment of the 1976 lE!gislation that inactive mining claims have reverted to the Crown. We were successful in attracting a new operator for ·the St. Lawrence property and it is government1s hope that our announced action today on the Consolidated Rambler property will result in renewed interest in that property. No. 50 R2635

--- ·~ --~ --- - -- .. . -·- -- - --· "--· --- --- -· -- ·-·· ..... This action is also a clear signal that this government is not prepared to tolerate, without good and sufficient cause, the holding of inactive mining claims in this Province. This is sound resource management policy and a policy that we hope will result in renewed mining and exploration activity. SOME HON. MEMBERS:· Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe . MR. FUREY : Mr.

Speaker, we see the government today telling us that they are now the proud owners of a defunct piece of property where a mining operation used to be. They do this, of course, un.der the legislation provided in 1976. We see the word • hope • used in here a number of times. We, on this side, Mr. Speaker, are also very hopeful that this particular property, which has now become public property once again, out of the private hands of Rambler Mines, is flush and filled to the brim with gold so that we can create all kinds of jobs for- our people.

The acting minister will know - and he is a pretty good actor, and a better acting minister than the real minister - that there are three areas in this Province, in the mining community, that are on the edge of crisis. Whether that word is too strong for the minister and his government, well, maybe so, but we, on this side, feel that there are three areas in this Province, Mr. Speaker, that are on the edge of crisis. There L2636 May 2!L 1987 , Vol XL can be no doubt that the Daniel• s Harbour zinc mine is in crisis, with 165 jobs lost in that area.

The Flat Bay area, where a minister came into this chamber eight weeks prior and told us that Domtar•s takeover of that gypsum operation in Flat Bay would be just wonderful and successful, and eight weeks later we see them with a divesture group in place to try to bail it out and save those eighty jobs_ And, of course, we see the St. Lawrence operation where there were government ads taken out to show 100 jobs being created. Well, where are the 100 jobs, Mr. Speaker? Were are they? They were reduced to 80, then reduced to 50, and the!n reduced to 30 .

So we have to examine under the microscope and with a finetoothed comb every single statement ever uttered in here about mines ever again, whether it be by the real Minister of Mines or the acting Minister of Mines (Mr. Rideout) who, himself, is a good actor . Mr. Speaker, this is a straightforward statement of takeover. We, too, apply the verb 1 hope•. MR. BARRETT : Hope Brook. MR. FUREY: The Minister of Development (Mr. Barrett) shouted Hope Brook. Yes, we hope there is a Hope Brook in Baie Verte as well, because we will take evey single job we can get.

But we ask the acting minister in his capacity- and hE! is a fine Minister of Fisheries and I suspect he would be a good Minister of Mines - to take under consideration these three areas of . mining in our Province that are now on the edge of crisis and to perhaps knock some sense into the real Minister of Mines. No. 50 R2636

----- ·-·~--~- --·- -··- -- ·--·- . MR. FENWICK: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK : Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker . We . are pleased to see that the provincial government has a policy for recycling mine sites and recycling mines . I think it is admirable that we are in the position now where other operations can come in and work it. Mr.

Speaker, it is just lamentable that the provincial government has not kept up with the communi ties that are associated with those mining ventures and that we have not comprehensive policies to deal with the problems of the communi ties themselves, that we do not have a single-industry towns policy that has been developed by this government or the federal government, or on a joint basis, and that communities such as Buchans, when their mine goes down, suffer badly because we have not planned for it.

There is an old expression in mining that the mine starts to close the day that it is opened, when the first shovelful -of ore is taken out of it. That has obviously happened at Daniel's Harbour. We had · no policies in place to accommodate the trauma that the people of Daniel's Harbour are going through. The same thing happened in St. Lawrence and the individuals themselves had to bare much of the brunt. Luckily, we have it back up again, however tenuously. The same happened we lost L2637 thing, Mr.

Speaker, has in Labrador City, where 1,000 workers over the May 28, 1987 1 Vol XL last five years and very little, if anything, was in place beforehand in order to ac cornmoda te the human tragedy th at associates with these mine closures. Mr. Speaker, if we were consistent, we would have had companion legislation long ago which would have provided for these individual communities when they come into trouble. The unfortu nate thing is we have not kept up with looking at the people as well as we have at the mine sites, themselves. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr . Speaker, today I am · tabling as per Appendix I, 115 new projects approved under the Private Sector Employment programme . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. POWER: In so doing, Mr. Speaker, I would like , first of all, to respond to criticism by the Leader of th e Opposition (Mr . Simmons), and some others opposite, regarding the distribution of application forms in connection with this programme.

It should be made crystal clear to everyone in this Province that the distribution of application forms was done fairly and equally . When the Private Sector Employment programme was first mentioned in the Throne Speech, my department immediately began to receive requests for infor mation from interested parties. A mailing list was maintained with the intent that when the programme was No. 50 R2637

-- -·- ---- ·-- --..... -· --··· .... . ·-·--···-- -- ..... ··- ·-~-~ -···-··· -·-- in place, application forms would be distributed to all enquirers. In addition, Mr. Speaker, on May 6, 1987 a Ministerial Statement was read in the House outlining details pertaining to the Private Sector Employment programme. A copy of the application form, as weJ,l as an information sheet, was attached to the statement distributed to all han. members at that time. The departmental mailing list contained requests from all areas of the Province.

As soon as the ­ application forms were printed, a copy was mailed to all interested parties. Mr. Speaker, there was certainly no manipulation on the part of government to have P. C. districts receive application forms before other districts in the Province. Liberal M. H. A. • s and NDP- M. H. A. • s had access to the same information as did P.C. M.H.A. 1 s and if government members were faster off the mark in getting application forms to their constituents, then this is certainly not an example of political partisanship but rather an indication of the kind of interest government members take in their ridings.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BUTT: Bang on the desks. Because they are lazy over there. They do not work hard on behalf of their constituents. MR. POWER : Mr . Speaker, with respect to comments by the Leader of the Opposition to the effect that it was no accident that of the twenty projects announced on May 22 only L2638 May 28, 1987 vo.l x L i one was located in a Liberal district, I want to make it perfectly clear that projects are approved on a •first come first served• basis and if an application form meets programme requirements, then the project will receive favourable consideration.

Whether the person applying is in a P. C., Liberal, or NDP district has no bearing whatsoever on the selection process. Mr. Speaker, the projects I am announcing today involve a total provincial contribution of $707,037. Of the $5 million allocated for the Private Sector Employment MR. CALLAN: Is it government funds or P.C.Party funds? MR. POWER: It is taxpayer money, distributE!d equally throughout the Province. Of the $5 million allocated to the Private Sector Employment Programme the total funding to date is $823,217. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

POWER: This latest announcement will create 217 jobs, 38 of which lAiill be student positions. Mr. Speaker, over the last couple of weeks, 148 projects have rE!Ceived approval under the Private Sector Employment Programme for thE! creation of 263 new jobs - 263 jobs, Mr. Speaker, that did not previously exist. Mr. Speaker, this programme is an excellent job creation initiative and as it goes into full swing over the next few weeks, the enthuiastic response government No. 50 R2638

has received to the programme will be clearly evident to everyone, in all areas of the Province. Mr. Speaker, while I will not take the time of the House to read out the full 115 projects, I will table them for hon. members advice, and the consolation of members opposite, to make sure that all districts are being treated fairly. I will be glad, Mr. Speaker, for members opposite, to read out per district how much money has been spent on job creation in this Private Sector Employment Programme. In the district of Placentia, Mr. Speaker, there has been four projects approved to date.

In Conception Bay South there have been s~ven projects. In Ferryland there have been six projects. In St. John 1 s East, where there are still some entrepreneurs, there are nine projects approved. In Harbour Main there have been ten projects, in St. Mary 1 s -The Capes, seven; in Burin -Placentia West, one. MR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible). MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, it is not our fault that the majority of Newfoundlanders see what good government can do and votes for more members over here than over there. St. John1s South has one. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tory. MR. POWER: Port de Grave, one. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, boy! MR.

POWER: L2639 May 28, 1987 Vol XL II Bellevue, one. Mount Pearl, five. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tory. MR. POWER: Trinity North, five. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tory. MR. POWER: Humber East, six. MR. SIMMONS: Tory. MR. POWER: Humber Valley, five. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tory. MR. POWER: St. John1 s North, six approved to date. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tory. MR. POWER: St. John1s Centre, three. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tory. MR. POWER: Grand Falls, six. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tory. MR. POWER: projects Terra Nova, five; Gander, two; Trinity -Bay de Verde, three. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tory. MR. POWER: Bay of Islands, two. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. so R2639

··-·---- -~ - - .. -.. -:------- -·--- ....... - ~· - -_______ ,_ ___ -·- .. ·--. ···-·-· ···· --·· . . ........ Tory. MR. POWER : Carbonear, si~. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Tory. MR. POWER : Hu~ber West, four. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Tory. MR . POWER: Harbour Grac&, two . MR. FLIGHT: They are all Tory, Mr. Speaker. MR. POWER: The Strait of Belle Isle, four projects. MR . FLIGHT: Tory. They are all Tory. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . POWER: St. Barbe , three projects ; Bonavista North, two proj ects ; Bonavista South, two projects . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tory. MR. POWER: Twillingate, one project; LaPoile, two projects; St.

John 1 s East Extern, one. MR. FLIGHT: Tory . MR. POWER: Green Bay, one; Fortune Hermitage, two; Pleasantville, one; Lewisporte, two; St. John's West, two; Waterford - Kenmount, Exploits, and St. George 1 s one project each. L2640 May 28, 1987 Vol XL II Mr. Speaker, I know members opposite have to find some way to criticize, their job is to oppose, and their job in this case is to find a good programme and oppose it as best they can . Just as proof of how fair we have been with these projects, almost $7.5 million has been allocated for the provincial employment programme, Mr.

Speaker, and to date, of the over $7 million allocated, 62 per cent has been allocated for P. C. ridings and 38 per cent for other. Mr. Speaker, that might surprise people in this House: P. C. ridings have been allocated 62 per cent of $7 million, and the other parties have been allocated 38 per cent. It rnay be a coincidence, Mr. Speaker, that even though the P. C. ridings only got 62 per cent of the money, we do have 67 per cent of the ridi~gs. MR. HISCOCK: A point of order, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Eagle River . MR.

HISCOCK: The Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies just said that these applications are on a 'first come first served' basis . With the severe mailing problem we have down in Labrador, it is not surprising that none of these projects were approved for Labrador . I ask that the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies allocate sufficient funds for Labrador. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order . MR. SIMMONS: No. 50 R2640 -~~-- ·----·--'---··---- ·-·· _____ .., ___ - --- -- --· --~- --..····--- --- ·- ... - -· · -·-····

Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The ho~. the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Leader of the Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say the essence of what I said la~t time I responded to such a statement. I said that the concept, as the minister says in his concluding paragraph, is a good one. It is an excellent form of creating job opportunities. Now, he did .. not bother to recall that, he got all psyched 'out by· the criticism. It is a good programme in concept, number one. Number two, Mr. Speaker, the implementation of it is being botched in two ways.

First of all, there is not nearly enough money in it, so that the 2,000 people down in Port de Grave out of work, if they do not· stampede each other to death looking for that one job the mini~ter just announced -there must be great rejoicing in Port de Grave, one job for 2,000 unemployed people, or the three that were announced for St. Barbe, where fully 70 per cent of the adult population up there is unemployed, and almost all the youth in the sixteen to twenty-four age group. Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister wonders why we are not dancing in the streets about this particular initiative. No, we are not.

The initiative itself, Mr. Speaker, is sound. The idea is sound. It is being botched in that not enough money is being put into it, and it is being botched in the overall implementation, and I will come to that in a moment, Mr. Speaker. The minister takes fully half the L2641 Vol XL May 28, 1987 I written statement and mast of his off-the-cuff remarks to rebutt some remarks I made about it last week. The quotation that comes to mind is, 1Me thinks he doth protest too much'. Now, Mr. Speaker, the gentleman from Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) just drew attention to one of the problems, one of the problems that is created when you have a desperation approach to job creation, where you announce something today and expect to implement it tomorrow. It is blatantly unfair to the people! of Eagle River, to the people of more remote parts of this Province generally, that they have to compete in time frame!, they haVE! to compete with people who can walk into the office in St. John1s and personally, physically, pick up the application, o1n people who are just a day removed by mail from receipt of that application. It is blatantly unfair, . Mr.

Speaker, blatantly discriminatory against those people, some of tJJhom are just getting their applications. Now, let me come, Mr. Speaker, to the minister•s assurance as contained on page one of his statement, the second paragraph, where he says, 11A mailing list was maintained with the intent that when the programme wa1s in place, application forms would be distributed to all enquirers.11 Mr. Speaker, I do not doubt the truth of that particular statement, but let us apply it. Let us apply that statement. Let me tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that in the last few minutes I have direct information from one enquirer, who, as the minister has indicated, called in and presumably was put on that list. But somewhere the name got lost, No. 50 R2641

because that enquirer got the application form from the department last week. I can give the minister the exact day. It was one day last week, within the last five to s·even calendar days. He got the information from the department on the basis of that telephone enquiry. He received the information one day last week, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I come now, then, to page three of the minister 1 s prepared statement, the top of the page, in which he talks about new jobs 11 that did not previously · exist 11 • What he did not say but should have said in the interest of complete honesty is that those jobs will also not exist after the government funding runs out. Because, Mr. Speaker, very little attention has been paid here to the encouragement of long-term job creation initiatives. And that is another fault, Mr. Speaker, ~ith that particular programme. You cannot, Mr.

Speaker, get up and create a few ten weeks or fifteen weeks programmes three or four times a year, and then, while I suppose it .is statistically honest to say that if you got a· job for fifteen weeks and there is more than three times fifteen in a calendar year, say that you have created three jobs in a calendar year period. You cannot go on doing that, Mr. Speaker, because it is blatantly dishonest and that person, who has that job for ten weeks or twelve weeks, is still without employment the other forty weeks. I would like to see, Mr.

Speaker, those 11 jobs 11 translated into person years, and, I submit to the minister, that it would be far less than 283 person years. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! L2642 May 28, 1987 , Vol XL - The hon. the member 1 s time has elapsed. MR. SIMMONS: I will buy him a watch one of those days. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We would like · to thank the minister for a copy of his statement in advance, although I would note again, as I have in the past couple of weeks with other statements by other ministers, that it is a rather tedious fashion in which ministers from different departments continue to come into the House to total up the number of jobs, essentially as the basis for a propaganda campaign. There is going to be a long way to go to reach the 40,000 jobs that the Premier promised a long time ago to the people of this Province.

In any case, I would also say that the tone of the statement that the minister has presented obviously shows that not only his own department but the government is increasingly defensive about the charges of political patronage and are aware that that is becoming an issue in the minds of many people in this Province, with municipal grants especially, but that will remain to be an issue to come. The minister noted the number of projects awarded to St. John 1 s East, saying that there are still some entrepreneurs left.

Well, I would like to tell the minister No. 50 R2642 ----- --- -- ·-·- ·--· --··· ---- -.. -·- -· ,., __ ·-----·- -·----·- -- ---- .... ---- --- - ..... --- · ·------

that there certainly are entrepreneurs in St. John's East and they are part of the community that supports the New Democratic Party, and the projects that are there only reflect the good work of the member in encouraging entrepreneurs in the East End of St. John's to come forward and take advantage of the programme. The minister in this statement, though, is .falling short of the standards that he set out with the percentage of jobs that will go to the youth and students ·.

By my own calculation there is only 20 per cent of these jobs that are identified as going to students, and it is unclear whether there are more jobs that are going to young people who are not students. I raise that a concern again as I have in the past, especially in light of the lack of any real Summer job programme directed towards stude~ts, and particularly in light of the fact that this government withdrew the $1 . 5 million contribution that it made to the federal programme last year.

This comes at a time when the Social Services Minister has announced that there will thirty-five jobs cut back in his own department. What we see in ·this statement and this programme is a dogmatic allegiance to the private sector. When other ministers are cutting human services programmes in this Province, we have a high rate of unemployment, we have such serious social ills as family violence and alcoholism, issues which are constantly addressed in public and here in this Legislature. We have no programme to put people to work in non-profit community organizations taking care of people who are hurting.

In fact, we see ministers cutting back on jobs that exist providing services L2643 May 28, 1987 1 Vol XL for the and this offer to work. people of minister provide MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. LONG: ·-------- - -- this Province, has nothing to community based Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. EFFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: It is mainly a point of clarification for the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power). MR. SPEAKER: There is no such thing as a point of clarification.

Does the han. member have a point of order? MR. EFFORD : Mr. Speaker, my point of order has to do with the misleading information that the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies just gaue to the people of the Port de Graue district, the 2,000 people who will be overexcited this afternoon because he announced one job. In fact, Mr. Speaker, that job is very clearly for the district of Carbonear, in a branch office. In fact, they are only going to get half a job. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! There is no point of order . Oral Questions No. 50 R2643

---- ------· ··-·- -~-·- ··-~. -----~ ···-·- ------ ~-- . ____ ____ ___. ___ _....... _. ----- --·-· _ _....... ___ ... -· --.... ·-·- ·-··- ···- MR. CALLAN : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for .Bellevue . MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard). In recent months, Mr. Speaker, we have seen advertising outside of this Province for doctors and for nurses and for pilots for Air Services.

Would the Minister of Labour indicate whether or not he anticipates that any advertising will be done · outside of this Province for operators for an operating refinery at Come By Chance? MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: A simple answer, Mr. Speaker, no. I do not know of any advertising campaigns outside of the Province for tradesmen. I understand that virtually all of the tradesmen, except for a very few cases of specialties, are from within the Province. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Bellevue.

MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I will ask the minister, then, is he aware of an advertisement which appeared in a Fort McMurray newspaper today advertising for ninety operators and fifty maintenance personnel, that is one hundred and forty workers, to work at the Come By L2644 Uol XL May 28, 1987 ~ Chance oil refinery?

And in answering that question, will the minister explain why it is that Newfoundland Energy or Newfoundland Processing, which is the same company, are advertising out in Alberta at a time when people who were operating that refinery, former workers of the Come By Chance oil refinery are walking the streets in the district of Bellevue and other places in this Province? MR. BLANCHARD : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know about the validity of part of the statement of the hon. member 1 s question, but we will obviously check into it.

But many of us are aware that a lot of Newfoundlanders went to Fort McMurray and are actually working in Alberta. And we may be just trying to repatriate some of our own workers, Mr. Speaker. · I will check on it, Mr. Speaker. MR. CALLAN: A final supplementary, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN : Mr. Speaker, last week in the Legislature I asked another minister a question, and he said he would have an answer for me in one hour, and I am still waiting for that answer. It had to do with Air Services. Now the minister just indicated - MR.

DAWE: You were not here in the No. 50 R2644

Legislature. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I am being rudely interrupted by the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) who has not yet supplied to me the answer that he promised on Friday past. I .want to ask the Minister of Labour - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! This is a final supplementary. Would the hon. member please pose his question? MR. CALLAN: I am attempting valiantly to do so, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Labour will he, then, guarantee that he will check on this advertisement which was placed in that paper on April 14-of this year?

And· will the minister, as he promised several months ago, table on a timely basis safety inspections results that have been done on that site? I have seen one; the day after the minister promised to do it he tabled one. And will the minister promise on a timely basis to table anything that pertains to the Come By Chance oil refinery, especially anything that has to do with taking jobs away from Newfoundlanders and giving them to these bad old Mainlanders? Will the minister promise to do that? MR. BLANCHARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, it is rather hilarious that the hon. member says that we are taking jobs away L264-5 May 28, 1987 1 Vol XL ., from Newfoundlanders when there are approximately 550 Newfoundlanders employed at the Come By Chance site at the present time - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BLANCHARD: -and most of them are from the hon. gentleman1s district. However, Mr. Spe·aker, the simplE! answer is: Yes, I do promise that I will check on the thing. I said that when I answered his previous question. I am ,not a.ware that I promised to table everything in relation to Come By Chance. Mr.

Speaker, I will table the latest inspection reports, the relevant ones that have been done quite recently. If there is any specific one that the han. member has in mind, he can certainly bring it to my attention and I will be happy to table it. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: That was a final supplementary. MR. CALLAN: I did not say so. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I had a question or two for the Minister Responsible for Housing (Mr. Dinn).

Since the question relates in large measure to the so-called women 1 s issues, I would like to put the question to the Minister of Career Development No. 50 R264-5 ··-----··--••••-••••••--·----~·---·-•·•-·-a-.-·--~ ..... --... -......... _ .. ,_. __ • ••• ,., __ .,.,,__ ..... • ... --•--·~-0

and Advanced Studies, who has responsibility to the House, I believe, for women•s issues. I want, then, to put a question on the very important issue of public housing. First of alL I ask the minister, is there any conscious effort, any concerted attempt by government to provide public housing in rural areas, say, in communi ties of under 5,000 population? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: That question is not just a women•s issue, it is a question of housing that relates to rural people in the Province.

There are several rural housing projects which I am sure we would be glad to get the brochures we have and the information for the hon. member. I am sure the Minister of Housing would be glad to do· it. If it was just a women•s issue, then I would be glad to answer 'it. But ; again, I say that we, as a government, have rnany areas of responsibility, in my case for women, through Socia). Services for housing, through the Department of Justice, for some of ou~ transition houses and those types of things. If the member has a specific request about an individual community, then I will be glad to answer it if I can.

MR . SIMMONS : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR . SIMMONS: the WelL Mr. Speaker, in my

preamble it as I indicated is a housing L2646 May 28, 1987 , Vol XL -------· -- --- issue but, I say to the minister, it is particularly a women•s issue when you look at the profile of people who occupy public housing, mainly elderly wom~n. handicapped people ·Of both sexes, but especially low income single mothers. So it is a question that has particular import 'for his responsibilities . Now, Mr.

Speaker, I carefully put the question about what initiatives were taken in communities under 5,000 population, because I wanted to ask the minister - and I shall now do so - is the minister aware that of the more than 4700 public housing units in this Province, fully 90 per cent of them are located in communities of 5,000 population or larger? Is the minister aware that 90 per cent of all public housing in this Province is available to just 46 per cent of the population? How can he and . the administration ·explain, Mr.

Speaker, how he and the administration justify this neglect of public housing needs of more than half the entire . population of this Province? MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, if I could reply in behalf of my colleague, the Minister responsible for Housing, I might be able to enlighten the hon. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER : The h·on . the President of Treasury Board . MR. WINDSOR : The statistics he gave may well be accurate. MR. SIMMS: They are . MR . WINDSOR: No. 50 R2646

__ ....__ ____ _.. . ._ _ _.,__ ______ .... --.......... ___________ . The decision as to whether or not or where public housing units are constructed is based upon need as identified by ongoing studies of the need for public housing units. The hon. gentleman must also remember that there is a R.Jral Remote Housing Programme, very similar to public housing, wh~ch applies only in rural Newfoundland and Labrador in communi ties of a population, I think, of less than 5000 which -is a similar programme which is in fact more beneficial.

There are other ways and means whereby people in rural Newfoundland can find homes that are not available to people in urban Newfoundland. So I simply say on behalf of my colleague, who is not here, that the needs are addressed as they are identified. There are ongoing studies done on a continual basis to determine where the greatest need is and, naturally, I guess, because of the social implications of the larger communi ties, the greatest need has appearaed in the larger centers.

If I could address for just a moment the previous question as it relates to women, particularly single parents, not only mothers with children but single parents generally, there is is a growing need because obviously today that is an area that is becoming much more predominant. We are finding that more and more smaller units, such two bedroom units, are being , required. Again, the decision as whether to build two, three or ·four bedroom units is made based on the need as identified in a waiting list. There is an effort made to identify units that are suitable for that type of single parent families. MR.

SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. L2647 May 28, 1987 " Vol XL --------------· MR. SPEAKER: A final suppH1mentary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker;-I" thank the President of Treasury Board for responding to the question. He should not, however, I suggest to him, confuse the issue of the so-called RRAP housing, which· is not subsidized rental units in any context. There are subsidies avai1able for capital construction improvement, but it is quite a diffe!rent issue than the one I am talking about now. We are talking here, Mr. Speaker, about public housing provided for availability for rentals across the Province.

The figures, and I assure him they are correct figures, have been prepared independently for me and I can provide him wi t:h a copy of the tables that relate to my questions. The figure indicate that 90 per cent of all the public housing, all the public housing available for renting to those categories of people I mentioned earlier, including single parents, the elderly, the handicapped and so on, 90 per cent of it .finds itself in communities of 5000 or more.

My question to the minister, finally, is this: How can the minister justify what is obviously quite a blatant, quite an inexcusable discrimination against those low income people who happen to find themselves in over half the Newfoundland population which resides in communities under 5000 population? Mr. Speaker, is this just another example of the callousness, thE! uncaring attitude of this government that is so completely out of touch with the realities of the crushing poverty that is the daily lot of those people? Mr.

Speaker, could the minister respond to that and cou1d he, more to the point, give us No. 50 R2647

.. -~··----............_~- . ..:.--------·-· , ... .-~.- --~. ~---- some assurance that this serious discrimination will be addressed? MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the President of Treasury Board ,. MR. WINDSOR : Mr. Speaker, I am amazed that the hon. gentleman, who has been in this House and in the Parliament • of Canada for so long, does not know the difference between a rural RRAP Programme, and a Rural Remote Housing Programme. A Rural RRAP Programme is one for repairing and upgrading homes .

A Rural and Remote Housing Programme is one whereby a person actually builds a homes and the mortgage is subsidized based on the income of the family, exactly in the same m~nner public housing is in the larger urban communities. MR. SIMMONS: Public discrimination . MR . WINDSOR: If there is any discrimination, Mr. Speaker, it is against the larger eentres, because people in larger · centres go into public housing, they pay a rent based on their income, but they never own the unit.

In rural communi ties a home is actually constructed for them, the mortgage is in their name, the mortgage payment is based upon their income and they actually own the unit. So if there is any discrimination, Mr. Speaker, it is in the reverse of what the hon. gentleman is saying. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . L264-8 May 28, 1987 1 Uol XL ----- - ~ - - - --- -···---- · My question is for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins).

It has to do with the question of provincial pensions and the reduction that occurs through the CPP offset, as it is called . My question to the minister is this: In January the Canada Pension Plan became more flexible and allowed superannuates to receive their pension at age sixty.

Why did our provincial government decide to reduce the provincial · pension to - our pen5ioners in that category when the fed ·eral government, in the same situation , did not and virtually all the provinces in Canada decided not to reduce their provincial pensions and made amendments to legislation in order to ensure that these individuals would continue to receive thE! benefit both of the CPP at a full level and a provincial pension until they got to age sixty-five? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance . DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I can only presume that the hon. member is trying to get out a hole that he dug himself into and is trying to justify the inexcusable press release he issued a little while ago . Because I wrote the hon. member, I think it was on May 6, and laid out exactly what was going on here. Now, Mr. Speaker, the pension arrangements we have are integrated, the Canada Pension Plan and the CPP are integrated. Now one of the aspects of integration is that there is a lesser contribution required from the employee than if they were not integrated.

In other words, if they are separate plans, to get the benefits that the member is going to receive when he retires , he would hav.e to pay more out of his salary each fortnight or each ' No. 50 R264-8 --·--·--·---·--- --··----

, _________ ..,_,_,.__~~-- month, however he gets paid. The act is written that way: It says when the retiree becomes eligible for CPP benefits the reduction factor slips in and the particular contribution to his pension from the provincial pension fund decreases. As the CP~ is made more available to him, as he is more eligiblee for it, the act says that our contribution to his pension declines. Now, Mr. Speaker, previous~y the eligibility only came in at age sixty-five, but it was recently· changed so that as of January 1 the eligibility could come in at age sixty.

Anyone who is on early retirement, we could have taken out of his pension, as of January 1, a certain amount ·-there is a formula involved -because he is now eligible. We could have done that. It was quite legal to do that: Mr. Speaker, we elected not to do that. We did not take out anything. We are going to bring in·

an act, which is on the Order Paper, which will prevent us from taking it out. We are doing it now voluntarily, not ·reducing the pension, and when this act comes in we will not be permitted to take it out on the basis of eligibility. We will only be able to put in that reduction on the basis of actual receipt of CPP benefits. This is all related to the integration of the two pension factors. Now if the hon. member does not understand that, I will write him again. But I certainly did not get back anything from him which said he did not understand my original letter, and it was a quite clearly worded letter.

There is absolutely no doubt that the average person would understand it. But I will write L2649 May 28, 1987 " Vol XL him again if he feels he does not understand ·it. I presume he does understand it and he is just flogging this thing because he got himself into some sort of hole with this ridiculous and slanderous press release that he put out. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Sit down, Peter. MR. FENWICK: I had a one sentence question. MR. Mr. the and FLIGHT: Speaker, Minister Lands. MR.

FENWICK: rny of question is. for Forest Resources A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: I fully realize that :Lt is in the Speaker's discretion to recognize speakers, but the tradition has been that you get at least one supplementary question when you rise to ask a question. You have not even given me . one supplementary to ask to the Minister of Finance. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the member for Windsor - No. 50 R2649

• --·-- ....... .... .... -------·-·'·"· ~ --· -- --· -·- Buchans . MR. FENWICK: I do not believe it . MR . FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms). I would remind him that when Kruger bought the Bowater mill it committed itself to fo five year moclernization plan. The modernization plan has stopped - MR. BAIRD: It has not stopped . MR. ·FLIGHT : - there have been layoffs, people are on notice of layoffs, and there is widespread uneasiness in Corner Brook.

So I would ask the minister why the Board of Directors of Kruger have not approved the funding that would be required . to take on t~e second phase of modernization and its completion? MR. SPEAKER: The han; the Minister of Forest, Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, very briefly, my understanding of the situation is that the Kruger people are in the process of putting together design plans for the next phase of modernization. They certainly have not been instructed by the government or anything not to proceed. It is a private company ·• s decision as to how they proceed with their modernization.

In fact, they have spent more, I think, and moved a lot quicker on the modernization plans to date than they ever have. The other thing that I would point out to han. members, and I would L2650 Vol XL May 28, 1987 • assume being the Forestry critic the hon. member is well aware of the amendment that is on the Order Paper, and has been there for quite some time, Bill No. 25, which requires a minor amendment to the Kruger - government agreement . The hon. member might want to take the time to just refresh his memory on that one.

That is another niatter, but I do not think it is really a matter that is significantly holding up any progress with respect to modernization . MR. FLIGHT : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr . Speaker, the Province committed $7 mi 11 ion to that mi 11 modernization. · I would ask the minister, has the Province paid over to Kruger all of that $7 million?

Because, among other speculation, there is the one in The Humber Log which states, 11 The company may be experiencing difficulty 11 - this are The Humber Log•s, · not my words - 11 in obtaining financing for its upcoming work, 11 the continuation of its modernization. I would ask the minister, has the Province of Newfoundland paid over all of the $7 million that it committed to Kruger for the modernization programme? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, I thank member for his question. sure how relevant it is No. 50 the hon. I arn not to get up R2650

----·-·--- in the House and ask a quest:i,on pertaining to a 'quotation that was in a newspaper. Surely the han. member has access to research people in the Opposition office who perhaps could be a little more specific and clear. From my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that is not accurate. The allegation or whatever it is contained in that quotation is not accurate . That pertains to additional funding that Kruger needs to do additional work, above and beyond the modernization programme that we all have heard · about. They want to do more. That is what that particular quote refers to. MR.

BARRY: (Inaudible) 50 per cent. MR. SIMMS: Sorry! I do not want to quell the enthusiasm of the member ~or Mount Sci a, but I do want to just continue, if I might be permitted. The question with respect to modernization is, in fact, a question that is not a question in our minds. It is proceeding. In fact, they have gone faster than they had even planned to in the first place. So I think they have given every indication that they intend to proceed. But there is a matter of doing some design work and the like. That is the only problem.

The other part of the question was whether we have paid out $7 million with respect to our commitment under that agreement. I would have to confirm it with the Minister of Finance. It does not come out of my department, but I would assume we have. I do not think that is a problem. L2651 May 28, 1987 " Vol XL MR. FLIGHT : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . the member for Windsor- Buchans . MR . FLIGHT : Mr.

Speaker, the minister might think it is not important, but if he were in Corner Brook and had a firsthand feeling for the uneasiness and the concern among unions and the people in Corner Brook, he would know it is relevant. So my final supplementary, Mr.

Speaker , is: Will i:he minister move to end this speculation and uneasiness, which I referred to, by telling this House and te!lling the people of Newfoundland, since we have a big stake in there, when we know that Kruger have not approved the funding that would see th~ completion of the modernization programme - we can expect Kruger to approve the funding for the rE!St of the modernization and its completion, which, by the way, is going to cost $80 million? Will the minister tell us when Kruger wi 11 do that? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS : Well, Mr.

Speaker, I suppose the short answer would be as soon as they get all of their planning and design work and th at sort of information put together and fin ·alized. Kruger has certainly shown every indication to me of their interest in proceeding as quickly as possible. It i·s rather ironic that all of a sudden members of the Opposition are showing a great deal of interest No. SO R2651

---·-· .. - -~-· -· · ·- .4 ····· ~----....--- ----~-- ~ ·- ··· · ~··· ··- ··· in the Kruger take-over in Corner Brook, since I recall a couple of years ago there was not all that much enthusiasm or support from the Opposition for what the government was trying to do with respect to Kruger. The member for Windsor - Buchans and the members opposite can be assured that the modernization programme that the government entered into with respect to an agreement with Kruger will be undertaken, will be completed, that people will be employed and it will be some, Mr.

Speaker, as a result of the initiative of this government. And that is something that should not be forgotten by the han. member when he asks his questions. MR. BAIRD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Humber West. MR. BAIRD : Mr. Speaker, I have a question also to the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, this one concerning the Green Paper on the outfitting industry, as the deadline is the 31st. of the month and I think there is a fair bit of interest being shown across the Province, and particularly in my district, MR. FLIGHT: Will the minister deadline? extend the MR.

BAIRD: I ask would the deadline month? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the the minister extend by approximately a Minister of Forest L26S2 May 28, 1987 • Vol XL ---- --·--" -·- -- ·--------- ------- Resources and Lands . MR. FLIGHT: The minister asked me to ask that question a week ago. MR. BAIRD: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for Humber West. MR. BAIRD: I think it is ridiculous, the comment I just heard there that the minister asked him to ask that question a week ' ago. Well, the deadline is three days away and a lot of people are concerned.

I think the member should be ashamed of himself. MR. FLIGHT : To the point of order . MR. SPEAKER: To the point ·of order, the han. the member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, it may be ridiculous in the mind of the member, but the fact is the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands did indeed ask me to ask that question a week ago and I refused to ask it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The han. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, I asked him to ask me because he asked me outside the House. No. so R2652

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: The member asked me, outside of the House three days ago, why do you not extend the deadline? And I said maybe I will. Why do you not ask me a question some day in the House? But it goes to show, Mr. Speaker, how much interest he has because he did not ask the question. That is the point. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, who cares about that! I mean how foolish, how foolish. The minister over there told me to ask the question - na- na- na!. How silly. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, the answer to the question is that the dates for the deadline were approved by Cabinet so, therefore, in order for me to change the dates of the deadline I will have to confer with my Cabinet colleagues before I can do anything with respect to a firm decision.

But I can assure my friend for Humber West and my friend for Windsor - Buchans, and all of those who have an interest in this discussion paper, which I agree there has been a great deal of interest in and I am delighted to see it - I just hope that they will use their energies in replying to the department rather than just venting their frustrations out on the minister or the government, I hope they will write - that I will confer with my colleagues in Cabinet overnight and will advise the hon . member tomorrow morning in the House. Perhaps I will do a little statement, or I might not .

I might wait for the hon. member for .Windsor - Buchans to finally ask me the same question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask . the Minister of FinanCE! a question which he has not asked me to ask. I would like to ask the minister whether he i~ aware that Mobil Oil are moving employees out of the Province from their head office, which is located here in Newfoundland, moving some employees, I believe, to Calgary and other parts of Canada?

Would the minister tell us whether he or members of Cabinet are aware of this, and whether that forebodes anything for the negotiations between Mobil, the Government of Canada , and the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hoh. member is obviously extremely interested in this area, having been Minister of Energy. I think, as hon. members know, the present Minister of Energy (Mr. Otten heimer) is currently in New York. He will be back tomorrow. He has been having discussions with Mobil to get himself updated on the thinking in the company there.

I think that hon. members know that Mobil decided some little while ago - I am pretty certain it was Mobil - to move some of their Canadian head office from the Central Canada area, the Toronto area, back out to Calgary, because it is just administratively more effective in their mind. I do not know if there is a movement. I have not heard it, quite frankly. L26S3 May 28, 1987 11 Vol XL No. SO R2653

•- ,-•- •-·-'·••- •~ •1•-• --•• -- ~ ::o •• C·~--~-~-'-• - • .,, ..... •4 • •·• • - •• _ ... , .. , _ __ • If there is some movement of employees out of St . John 1 s, I do not know whether or not it is related to that same frame of mind they have that led them to move from Toronto . But, in any case, I am sure that the han. Minister of Energy, when he comes back tomorrow, will be able on Monday to . give an updating on his perception of things. MR . BARRY: A supplementary , Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Mount Island. MR. BARRY: the han.

Scio the ' Bell I wonder if the minister would confirm that he will raise this matter with the Minister of Energy and have it checked into? Will the minister also indicate that he, as Minister of Finance for this Province, will not be satisfied with a mere decision by Mobil, · for administrative convenience or whatever, to attempt to operate East Coast offshore operations out of Calgary? Is this not a somewhat significant departure from the previous approach of tnis administration? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance . DR . COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, of course our main concern is that the companies make a decision to release the project. Now, how they do, shall we say, their management or their internal administrator arrangements are of lesser concern to us. Obviously the more employment here the better, that is definitely a concern of ours, but our main concern is that the L2654 May 28, 1987 Vol XL II ·----- companies finally come to a conclusion whereby they can release the project, because we feel that out of that is where the bulk of the employment is going to come in terms of the offshore .

The relatively small amount of employment that comes from their administrative offices here, in the absence of a project release, is of some concern to us, but certainly not nearly the concern that we have that they would actually come to a decision to release the project. I will raise those matters with the han. the Minister of Energy. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. John 1 s East. MR . LONG : Mr . Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies in his capacity as the Minister Responsible for the Status of Women in the Province .

In his absence in the last week or ten days, when he has not been here, there have been several discussions in which other ministers have responded to the problem of domestic violence and battering of women . I would like to ask the minister is he reviewing the need for monies to be made available for a public education programme and for staff people to be put to work to carry out this education programme? MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr . Speaker, I thank the han . No. 50 R2654

-----·---·-------· ·----........ -.. ------ gentleman for his question about the status of women's rights in this Province. I am glad to say that we are assisting the role of women in this Province in many and varied forms whether it is through our training programmes, our transition houses, access to day care or whatever. We also, Mr. Speaker, will be having very shortly a brochure completed that will be distributed to agencies and individuals in this Province about wife battering and about physical abuse within the family itself.

We hope to make this brochure available, as I say, to· all agencies and individuals in the Province who might be concerned. We have staff available in our department presently to develop and distribute that brochure, and we hope that it does make a significant improvement in this very difficult area. MR. LONG: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for St. John's East. MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would tell the minister that women who are working in this field, volunteer and as full-time people, have a concern that this brochure is simply not enough to meet the needs of the Province.

I would like to ask the minister, in view of the announcement that he made today about funds for the private sector programme, and there is at least $4 million left in that programme, could he not find money in that employment programme to be made available to put women to work in this Province taking care of battered women? - L2655 May 28, 1987 Vol XL 6 ---·-· ·-~··..-~ ... -------------·-... ·· ........ --------· -·· ........... . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, I am extremely surprised that the spokesman for the NDP, who portray themselves in Canada and Newfoundland as being the only persons who support women's rights and women's issues in this country, has such a shallow and narrow-minded approach to wife battering in this Province. Anybody who fully understands the issue realizes that the issue is very often economic as well as social or cultural. The fact that there is a tremendous amount of wife battering is associated with unemployment, and social problems such as that in Newfoundland, where there is alcoholism, · child abuse and wife battering.

They all very often tie themselves in with the unemployment and economic situations. The $5 million that we are spending in a very worthwhile programme to create employment in this Province is not simply for the sake of the individuals who are employed, it helps the family of the employed as we 11, and, hopefully the family of the employed in this case will be women who may be the subject of wife battering or children who are the subject of child abuse. We just hope, Mr.

Speaker, that the whole range of programmes that we are doing wi 11 as s i s t i n thE! overall so that women's rights in this Province can receive the full merit that they deserve. We think we can do that in many different ways, and the employment programme is one of the ways to assist women in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 50 R2655

The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. MR. WARREN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have a copy of yesterday's Hansard here and on Page L2613 it states: "AN HON. MEMBER: No." That is followed by "MR. FENWICK" and debate goes on For the next page and a half. I would like to refer to you the first couple of sentences, "Well therefore, why in the heck are you supporting Ed Broadbent and his cronies up in Ottawa against the military?

This is what you are doing, Sir." Now, I am sure, with all due respect to my han. friend from Menihek (Mr. Fenwick), he did not say those words. Those words came from myself and I would like for Hansard to correct that. My second point of order, Mr. Speaker, is to my han. friend from the The Evening Telegram. Today's edition states: "The government and the LIA support social economic development and low - level flying, said Mr. Warren." In Hansard, Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Warren, on page R2614-, said, "The Labrador Innuit Association has some concern about the ' possible long term effects of low level flying on the caribou herd and the environment, they are apparently more concerned about socio-economic issues and its land claim~." I never mentioned low level flying so I would hope that the The Evening Telegram and my good friend will make the correction tomorrow. MR. SIMMONS: L2656 May 28, 1_?87 " Vol XL Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR . SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I thank my friend for Torngat Mountains Warren) for raising what characterized as a point order. good (Mr. he of I submit, Mr. Speaker, that insofar as his second and specious point of order is concerned that he would do well to take pen in hand and write ~ letter to the editor because that would be the · appropriate way to deal with that particular matter since, as much as the Premier wou1d 1 ike it and the member would like it, The Evening Telegram is not answerable to this particular House. He should deal with that in that particular way. It is not, therefore, 'a point of order. The first one, Mr.

Speaker - MR. WARREN: That is for the Speaker to rule . MR. SIMMONS: The Speaker will rule on it but I can certainly argue the point as I am sure he is not wanting to deny me that yet. As to Speaker, upstairs Hansard. crowd of his first point, Mr. I suggest he take a trip and talk to the people in They are a reasonable people - MR. WARREN: It is already done. MR. SIMMONS: and that they understand the member is evidenced by the fact that they actually record some of No. SO R2656 -----------------· ---·------- ---- ---__ , ___ _ .. __ , ______ .. -

the things he says in this Chamber. If he would take a dodge up there - MR. WARREN: You are only a 10-day wonder. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker. I am trying to help the member. MR. WARREN: (Inaudible). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) has stated his point of order without interruption. I would li'ke him to give the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Simmons) an opportunity likewise. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Leader Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was about to conclude could pursue this at a the gentleman is not so that helps the cause. first point of order, talk to Hansard and he that so that drives bim estimation to where before. of the anyway. I time when upset, if On his he should has done up in my he was Secondly, he should write letters to the editor. We would be happy L2657 May 28. 1987 " Vol XL ~-·----· - to help with the corrections, the grammer and that kind of thing.

Otherwise, I thought he set a beautiful precedent in this House today because it gives the member a fairly extended per·iod of time to state what is obv:L.;~usly not a point of order. It is instructive for the future for us over here. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I will check into the matters that the han. member brought up, but there does not appear to be a point of order. Notices of Motion DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I rise on behalf of the Minister of Justice to give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, 11An Act To Remove Anomalies And Errors In the Statute Law.11 Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the M:lnister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to give answers to questions tiJhich I gave notice to on a question asked by No. 50 R2657

JO the .member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) last week. There were essentially three questions regarding the hiring procedures at government Air Services in terms of the number of Newfoundland pilots on staff, the number of female pilots on staff, and the number of grievances filed regarding pilot hiring. Mr. Speaker, during these questions, of course, the member for Bellevue put some doubts out to the public as to the quality of the men working in the Air Services and I think that should ­ be retracted, as I indicated during Question Period. But to answer the questions, Mr.

Speaker, government Air Services currently has twenty-three pilots on staff. There are two vacancies and they are being filled through public interviews at the present time. According to the department personnel files, twenty-two of t.he twenty-three pilots are Newfoundlanders. One pilot out of twenty-three that are presently hired is from outside the Province. There are no female pilots employed by government Air Services, Mr. Speaker. I did not check to see how many had actually applied for positions but that may, in fact, have been an interesting exercise as well.

For my own use, at least, I will look into that. With regard to the question of grievances, at the present time there is one grievance that has been filed to the knowledge of the department with regard to an individual who applied within the service, who applied for a position of pilot, and was unsuccessful in that application and is grieving the decision.

There is one complaint that has L2658 May 28~ 1987 It Vol XL -_._ __ _ been lodged, and a complaint grievances are internal - but there has been one complaint, an external complaint filed as a result of external application for a pilot • s position, in which this particular individual was unsuccessful. Mr. Speaker, rather than trying to cast doubt and innuendo on the Air Services Division of my department, it would have been a simple matter for the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) to have asked me the questions and he could have had the answers.

Instead, he tried to discredit the members of the Air Services Division, Mr. Speaker, which I think is a disgrace for any member of this Legislature to do. These people have an excellent record and are, as I indicated last week, the best in the country. Petitions MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to present and speak in support of a petition from seventy-six residents of what is known in Happy Valley-Goose Bay as the Labrador Linerboard housing area.

It is now a misnomer actually, but it is an area in which economic housing are supplied by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, to make it more specific. The prayer of the 11 The petition of No. 50 petition reads, the undersigned R2658

-----·----·------ residents of Happy Valley -Goose Bay hereby showeth that we protest the 10 per cent rental increase on the economic housing units which we rent from the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation in Happy Valley -Goose Bay, on the basis that it is an unfair and unjustified increase brought about by .the high demand for housing and the shortage of same; and the fact that NLHC rent increases may be based on rental rates by private owners which have become inflated because of the lack of social and economic housing in the town; 11And that we request that the provincial government cause the NLHC to freeze the rent at the present level for at least a twelve-month period or until the private rental rates stabalize as a result of the high demand in this area while adequate housing is not available.11 As I said, Mr.

Speaker, seventy-six residents signed this petition. I think it is in the proper format, as Your Honour will see. All but two live in the housing area I mentioned. The other two live in Hamilton Heights, but also occupy Crown-owned housing rented from the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. I understand that there are additional petitions from those other parts of town on the way to the House of Assembly for presentation as well. I would like to give a little explanation as to what the residents are getting at here.

Many people may believe that a 10 per cent rental increase is not that much, and I suppose by some standards, in the more affluent areas of our town and more affluent segments of our society that may be quite true. But when L2659 May 28, 1987 1 Vol XL -"'---------------·------·--· . - - we are talking about the economic housing units in Happy Valley Goose Bay, a great number of these are occupied by people on low income, fixed income or seasonal employees who depend on U.I.C. benefits for a good part of the year.

What is happening up there, and it was alluded to in an earlier petition, is that there is an increasing demand on the available housing in our arei5l.. Because there is an increasing demand because of increased military presence and so on, housing, when any is available', the rentals on those are being pretty well drastically increased by the private sector.

Now, I have no argument with free enterprise and. so on, but the fact that tAle do not have enough social housing in Labrador is bringing about this sort of a situation where the shortage of housing causes the private sector to increase rents and the agency responsible for providing social housing, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, is increasing their rents based on the private sector increases. It is sort of a vicious circle that th'e low income and fixed income people and people on U.I.C. are caught in. Then the other point is quite a simple request.

I would like not only to table this petition in the House for the House of Assembly but also to have the House provide a copy to the Minister Responsible for Housing (Mr. Dinn) so that he can take some positive! action. I believe the second part of the prayer of the petition asks for a freeze on any rental increases for a twelve-month period until the falsely inflated rental rate situation stablizes. No. 50 R2659

We have a great number of new private housing units about to be built and that will take some of the strain off the market. We do have twenty-six other units, through the Melville Native Housing Association, eight, NLHC, eight, and the Paddon Memorial Home. Twenty-six other units will additionally take the strain off. Once the strain comes off or is releived a little, Mr. Speaker, that would cause the private sector to stabalize their rents and would then, of course, as it is being used as a y~rdstick, would also cause the NLHC to stablize theirs.

So I make that plea to the House of Assembly for their support, and also to the -minister responsible for Housing to take that into consideration. If necessary, arrange meetings with his officials and representatives of these petitioners to discuss it a little further and give due consideration and full consideration to their request that they roll back the 10 per cent to start off with, eliminate ·that, and put a freeze on the existing levels until such time as the market stablizes and the supply comes close to meeting the demand. Thank you, Mr . Speaker . MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville . MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank today ably from After you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to support the petition so presented by my colleague Naskaupi (Mr . Kelland). first hearing it, it is a L2660 May 28, 1987 " Vol XL · very reasonable request to ask of the government to look at a freeze for a twelve month period to see how the rents will stablize or not. It is a very reasonable request by people who are on low income living in this area of Happy Valley -Goose Bay. Mr.

Speaker, one of the pleasures I have in rising today to tell the government that they should be looking at this request comes from just recently when the Minister of Housing (Mr. Dinn) and his Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation suffered a defeat at the hands of , the people of Stephenville when a decision was rendered by the Western Residential Tendancies Board which pretty well lambasted the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation for, first off, its financial outlook and the financial position that it portrayed to the Board.

It also talked about the information on the buildings and the amount of money that was being k~pt in the Stephenville operation. A lot of information was presented and a lot of it was questioned by the Board. The final result from the Board, which was a long time coming, was a decision after seven months which was to roll back the increases and give the people there an excellent decision. It was one that vindicated the views that they have carried for many years. It is an exact . reference to the member for Naskaupi because it is the same type of operation.

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing up in Happy Valley - Goose Bay are attempting to do a similar thing, increasing the rents and not giving the tenants a chance to have a say . and to present their No. 50 R2660 ·---- ---- ---- -- ·-·-- --· -

views. They are not asking to stop the rents forever. They are asking for a freeze which is a very reasonable re.ques t by the people of the area since there is a great deal of activity going on in the member • s district. I think it is one that the government should look at. Since the recent decision by the Tendancies Board in the Westernpart of the Province has indicated many concerns to the corporation about the way they present their views -and their financial statements to the· Tendancies Boards around the Province.

I think they should take this under consideration and the minister should take it under consideration with the view of freezing the rents for at least a twelve month period and do a full re-evaluation for the seventy-six people who are very interested in this petition. · Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to rise and speak to the petition that was ably presented by the hon. member for Nas kaupi. Mr.

Speaker, I am sure it was not an omission on the hon. gentleman • s part. but I notice from the petition that the hon. gentleman has not signed his signature to it, in support of it. I think it is just an error on the hon. member's part. However, Mr. Speaker, I realize, L2661 May 28, 1987 I Uol XL in fact, as the hon. gentleman does that - MR. FENWICK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, if the petition dOE!S not have the signature of the individual member who is presenting it on it, it is clearly 9ut of order.

You ruled one of mine out of order a number of weeks ago on thab same grounds, on two grounds. but that was one of them. I mean I have no objection to i·t. I would even like to speak to the petition and I support the petition. But, Mr. Speaker, rules are rules. If you enforce them in our case when you. said they were out of order, then I would suggest you haue a look at the petition and see whether or not it is in order as well. MR. SPEAKER: Order. please! I am clear about the point hon. member is making. MR. FENWICK: not quite that the The member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren), in looking at the petition, indicated that the member for Naskaupi (r~r. Kelland) has not signed the petition which is required under our orders in this House. Since you ruled one of my petitions out of order that way, I would suggest you haue a look at the petition to see whether it is in order. That is not to say I do not support it, I do. I think it is a good petition and it should be addr•assed. But, Mr. Speaker. if the rules are rules for us, they are rules for everybody else too. No. 50 R2661

MR. SPEAKER : I would like to have a look at that petition. MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker, just briefly to that . MR . SPEAKER: May I have that petition in the meantime. MR. KELLAND: May I put a signature on it now if it is necessary? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. -KELLAND: Mr . Speaker, as I indicate d, that was a partial petition . Some sheets of the identically worded petition are still being circulated in the other portions of town so there is adequate opportunity for me to sign. I was not totally aware that my signature was required on that or any sheet or every sheet.

In fact, if I am not mistaken, I have seen quite a number of petitions presented in this House that may not have borne members signatures. However, I will leave that in the hands of Your Honour to make a decision on it. I would be more than happy to apply signature right now, Your Honour, in the event that it is required. MR. SIMMS: To that point Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : To that point of the Minister of and Lands. MR . SIMMS : of order, Mr . order, the hon.

Forest Resources I do not believe that there are petitions that have are accepted in the House that have not been L2662 May 28, 1987 Vol XL • ........ ·--- -·----- ----- signed by the member presenting a petition. That is clearly one of the rules but perhaps the hon. member could be given the opportunity to put signature to the petition . It is clear he wants to do it. Maybe to simplify matters and to allow the debate on the petition to go on, why not? It is a minor point. Unless the hon. member is not prepared to do it , we 11, then the petition s h o u 1 d be ruled out of order, clearly . · Anyway, Mr.

Speaker , it is up to you. MR. SPEAKER : To that point of order, the point raised by the hon . member for Menihek (Mr . Fenwick) is well taken. I refer hon . members to our Standing Orders . The first Standing Order under 11 PETITIONS 11 , page 31. I will read it: 11 A petition to the House shall be presented by a member in his place who shall be answerable that it does not contain impertinent or improper matter; and every member offering a petition to the House shall sign it with his own hand . 11 MR. WARREN : To the ·point of order . MR. SPEAKER: I am now dealing with the point of order.

So this petition is not in order because it is not signed by the han. member who presented it. If it is agreeable to the House that the hon. member will sign it now and the House will accept it on that basis, I am quite happy about that, but as it stands at the moment, it is not in order. MR. FENWICK : Mr. Speaker . No. 50 R2662

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Since I was the one who raise the point of order, I am perfectly willing to see the petition signed by the member for Naskaupi and therefore become in good order so th~t it can be addressed. MR. SPEAKER: It is agreed that the hon . member will sign that. MR. WARREN : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: The member for Naskaupi and I were on the town council in Happy Valley - Goose Bay when the linerboard housing - and ·he was a good mayor, I must admit.

I suppose the town council in Happy Valley - Goose Bay at that. time had one of the best mayors on record and a.lso one of the better councillors. So we will put that aside. I am quite familiar with the linerboard housing but I think we must realize at the same time, and I believe the hon. gentlemen agrees too, that the rent in those units for the past number of years MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I know the hon. member was interrupted but his five minutes has elapsed so unless he has leave. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave . L2663 Vol XL May 28, 1987 " ---- ------ MR. SPEAKER: Leave is granted . MR.

WARREN: I will be only another minute, Mr. Speaker. I know the rent for a number of years has been below standard rental by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing in other parts of the Province. I think probably too ·as king for a 10 per cent increase all of one time is a bit much for the tenants to take . I am willing as a member on this side to take a petition and ask the minister to address it to the tenants concerns .

We must realize that w1~ are havin,g increased military activity in Goose Bay, there is a big demand, as the member said on housing in Goose Bay and we are going to need and I think the member for Menihek said some time ago - we are going to need a large infusion of funds in Happy Valley - Goose Bay to contend with the uprise, with the increased activity, with the extra people working and all of these things. Hopefully, we can see that we can adjust the rent structure to meet the detnand and the needs of the individual .

I will take it to the minister concerned and I will do what I can on behalf of the petitioners. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, I would ask lE!ave to address the petition since we have a spirit of co-operation here. MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member for Menihek have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Yes. No. 50 R2663

__ -., .... _.-_ _ ., .. ·· ---····- ~·---- ··· ·-- ------ ---- .,.. ______ .,. __ .... _ .... -- ·-·---- ·· AN HON. MEMBER : No, no leaue. MR . SPEAKER: No leaue. MR . FENWICK : Thanks uery much, Mr. Speaker . MR, SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker . MR '. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for · Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise toda~· to present a petition that was sent to me from Bay St. George concerning the Department of Social Services cutting back thirty-five positions around the Province . Mr.

Speaker, they are uery, uery concerned and they are still getting petitions with names on them and sending them to me. I feel that this issue should be kept aliue in the eyes of the Province as it is a deplorable situation to see layoffs in the Department of Social Services when they haue not euen got enough staff to do what is required and to meet the needs of the people of this Province. When I see the minister of T.V. talking about $700,000 they are going to saue, I get really upset and actually poisoned, Mr. Speaker, because there is no need. Government has to haue priori ties.

While they can get up and talk about spending $300,000 or something a day on the social services to this Province, when you haue a crisis situation in this Province, you do not get up L2664 Vol XL May 28, 1987 I and blatantly just not bother with an explanation for why you would make such a moue which is so detrimental to many people around this Province, especially to the ones who can least afford to lose the services. Many times, Mr.

Speaker, the people who are affected, and especially in this case, are the people who are disabled, the people who are hauing a hard time trying to put their liues together, and the people who are unable to cope many times, Mr. Speaker, with the basic arrangements of ·liuing life. I feel that it is time that the department kind of woke up instead of . bragging about the jobs they create and talk about the good things that they should be going at when it comes to rehabilitating people and getting them feeling good about themselves and seeing them back into the work force.

The Department of Social Services has taken ouer the mandate also, Mr. Speaker, of expanding its services into the area of senior citizens and other groups. Also foster parents in this Prouin~ who are trying to help the situation by taking young foster children haue been trying to get legislative changes. They haue been trying to get improvements in the policy of government. Yet, this is being put by the wayside and social workers now are getting double the capacity of their workloads and are expected to deal with the problem. So I do not see any justification for it, Mr. Speaker. I think it is a shame.

I think it is a shocking statement to haue to make, that we are going to lay off thirty-five social service workers around this Province who deal with No. SO R2664 ·- .. ,-.. -··-· .. -----·---- -- --- ·-- ·-------- -- --·---- ·----- ... --···- --- -- --·· ··- - -· · ··-······· --

the people who are discriminated against and people who are in this Province least abJ.e to afford it. It is time that we had priori ties. I know we are _under fiscal restraint, but there are a lot of other areas that you can cut back and this is not the area to do it in. This is not the department to do it in. They should be expanding their mandate a.nd they should be putting funding in to deal with that mandate. One of the reasons we have so many people on social assistance is because they cannot find jobs· anyway, Mr. Speaker, and they do not want to take the blame for that over there.

They do not want to take the blame for the cutbacks because they talk about the millions of dollars they are spending. One of these days, Mr. Speaker, maybe they will take the ·blame and be accountable to the people of this Province for the record they have. When it comes to the Department of Social Services, the good work that they are attempting to do, the social workers out there, is getting overrun by the number of people that they have to deal with.

So I would suggest to the minister and his officials, we are going to keep bringing this issue up as much as we can because it should be kept in the public eye out there, Mr. Speaker, because it is one issue that is a shocking statement for society in this Province today. It is time they dealt with it and it is time, Mr. Speaker, instead of giving $800,000 to Lougheed up in Alberta, you took the $800,000 and put it back in the Department of Social Services. L2665 May 28, 1987 1 Vol XL ----'·-~----------"----·------------- Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St.

John•s East. MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would rise in my place in support of the petition so ably presented by the member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward), and would continue to support. for our part, all efforts to keep this issue in the public eye as the member said, and to hold the minister accountable. This is an absolutely disgraceful situation that the minister is trying to deny as an issue.

His approach to the issue when raised b.y the· media and h1ere in the House, is to simply disregard the concerns that are being brought forward and to suggest that there is not going to be any further strain placed on the social workers who are working across the Province, trying to cope with the difficulties that exist. These people are on the front line of providing human services to people who are on social assistance, people who are unable to find work over long periods of time, and people who are suffering the social ills of alcoholism and family violence.

The people who work with these people, the people who are taking care of the people in our Province, and counselling and ministering to them. the social workers are now being asked to - MR. HISCOCK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. No. 50 R2665

--------------- · ··-"'--- -··--- ----- -··-- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK : The member for Stephenville got up and presented the petition, and th~ rules of the House that I know are that two members from the same side can support it, and one from the other side, mainly government. The member for Port de Graue (Mr. Efford) got up to support their petition and was not recognized. I am wondering if we · are changing our Standing Orders. MR. SPEAKER : There is no point of order.

The Standing Orders as far as petitions say that there is one speaker from each side. So I have recognized the hon. member for St. John • s East as being on my right hand side, and then · I will recognize someone on my left if they wish to speak. The hon. the member for St. John•s · East. MR. LONG : Mr . Speaker, the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) was not paying attention, but clearly the member for Port de Graue was not on his feet as quickly to speak to the issue.

I do not know if it is a matter of trying to deny the support that we are offering to the petition so ably presented, but I would continue to say that for our part we share the concerns that the official Opposition is bringing forward on this issue. As I was saying, the situation that the social workers in this Province are being put in and ·are being asked to accept, namely the cutbacks in the numbers of people L2666 May 28, 1987 Vol XL ~ who are working, taking care of people in this Province, is a terrible situation for the workers in the Social Services Department. I have also been told, Mr.

Speaker, that the suggestion by the minister that these . are only temporary employees is simply not based on fact. In fact, I was talking to a woman in the city the other day who was one of the thirty-five who is being cut back . She had been working in the Department of Social Services for eight years . Now the question the minister must be obliged to address is what is the definition of temporary.

If these are temporary workers who have been working in the Social Services Department, working as social workers for eight or nine years in this Province, and they are considered temporary, with no job security, no seniority for the years of work that they have put in, then that is a . terrible situation . . It speaks to the lack of respect that the minister and his department has For the people who are on the front lines. I would say, in closing, Mr. Speaker, that we will be doing everything we can to continue to raise this issue and particularly in light of the other money that is being spent.

The Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) came in today and let us know that there was still $4- million in his purse waiting for applications to come in for a private sector programme, and here we have ·the Minister of Social Services cutting back. It is unfair to the people who are losing their jobs. It is going to increase unemployment amongst social workers in this Province. It is No. 50 R2666

unfair to the people who will be left in those offices, having to carry the increased strain, and it is unfair to people who are on social assistance in this Province. It clearly points out the contradiction in other statements by. this government and from other ministers about what they are doing to generate employment in this Province. The priorities that completely turned around.

There is a dogmatic allegiance to the private sector and absolutely no long term view, no sense of · developing the human services in this Province to take care of people who are hurting and to show some respect for the social workers and other professionals who are on the front line taking care of the people. We will be continuing to call for the government to change its priorities. Mr . Speaker, thank you very much. MR. FUREY: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe . MR. FUREY : Mr . Speaker, I rise in my place as well to speak about a petition with respect to - AN HON. MEMBER: By leave?

MR . FUREY : No, this is a new peti t.ion. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Is the hon. member presenting a new petition? MR. FUREY: Yes, Mr. Speaker: L2667 May 28, 1987 Uol XL I MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: The weather must be getting to some of these people. Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my comments and voice the concerns of the undersigned fifty petitioners with respect to the significant cutbacks at the Department of Social Services.

I concur with most speakers here today, particularly on this side of the House, that you can hardly cut back such an essential service without creating ,a negative ripple across that particular sector and that particular group of people that desperately need that service. Mr. Speaker, I know for my own . district in the district of St . Barbe where we have three particular offices under this agency of Social Serv ices, one in Flowers Cove in the North, in Port Saunders in the Central part of the Northern

section of my district and in Bonne Bay in the South, that all of these social workers, each in their own way, work extremely hard, in extremely trying and difficult circumstances, for long and t~reless hours. If you include into that the travel and time that they are away from thEdr homes f:o reach many parts of this rural riding, you know, you really and truly have to take your hats off to these people, Mr. Speaker.

They are good and dedicated civil servants and workers with an extremely hard job under trying circumstances and uery nerve wrecking circumstances, in many cases, where they are trying to do their best to be sensitive and sensible in their adjudication of the needs of fleople who come under No. 50 R2667

----------......>..---- -- ·--....... _ .... ___ ~- -··- ,... _ __, .......... ..:......-. ~---··· --·- ..... _. _. ___ . the umbrella of Social Services. So, my hat goes off, Mr. Speaker, and we give on this side full commendation and merit and credit to all social workers in this Province who work in very difficult circumstances. Mr.

Speaker, there can be no doubt that · ·this layoff which was announced recently by the minister responsible for Social Services, this removable of thirty-five good and competent and trained social workers from that division is bound to have a negative and detrimental effect on the service itself right across the Province. Mr.

Speaker, if you take those thirty-five jobs away, if you take away those people who are responsible for these significant case loads and add them to the numbers of social workers that are left behind, there is no doubt that there has to be ·an additional amount of pressure, and additional amount of frustration and aggravation by adding to their already overburdened case loads in some regards. I think about the Bonne Bay Office where Mr. Seaward is currently the manager, and his social workers Mrs. Noel and Mrs. Parsons and Mr.

Martin and other social workers, my God, they are working from daylight til evening trying to help all of the people who are burdened in that area with - and there is a high case load of social services which is directly proportional, Mr. Speaker, to the very significant and high unemployment rate. I mean we have to be very careful when we tamper with a department as sensitive as the Department of Social Services.

We see, Mr. ·Speaker, the L2668 May 28, 1987 " Vol XL government coming under conside~able criticism for the removal· of these workers, because we are told it is not just thirty-five workers that have lost their jobs, but they are taking the knife out to pare back even further and maybe cut another thirty jobs. Just imagine if they cut another thirty social workers on top of the thirty-five social workers and add all of those case loads to an already overburdened group of individuals in our society who are t·rying to deal competently with the situation that they are faced with as is. Mr.

Speaker, I refer you to the chairperson of the Community Services Council, the Executive Director, Mrs. Rowe, who recently said the Provincial Department of Social Services must have been mismanaged in the past if it can layoff thirty-five social workers without changing the level of service. She alludes to, and I allude to and agree with this question: Is the department admitting that there were people not doing work and that is why they are removing · them? Are they saying that these thirty-five never had anything to do?

If they did not have anything to do, for just how long were we paying these people for doing nothing? The logic is absurd, Mr. Speaker. Of course they had something to do. Of course they had case loads. Of course they were part of the group that were burdened down, who were trying to be sensitive in an area that dictates and demands absolute sensitivity. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: By leave for a minute? to conclude? No. 50 By leave R2668 ____ ____ _, _______ _ _,_...,_~--- ... ----------."'- ----- ~ ----------- -- .. _, ____ ,.._ -----· -- --- ___ ..,_ ..

... MR. WARREN : No, no. MR. FUREY: So, Mr. Speaker, I say that the government ought to take a second look at this particular situation and be sensitive, unlike the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. ·wa~ren) . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR . EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr . Speaker, I rise in my place this evening to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague from St . Barbe, and to make a couple of points ·that have been made, · but you have to keep making them over and over again, Mr.

Speaker, because the recent cutbacks in the Department of Social Services have had a major affect, not · only in the area on the West Coast, the St. George area and the St. Barbe area, but also on Central and Eastern Newfoundland. I haue had a number of calls from the social workers in my district and in the district of Harbour Graue where the people are explaining that, yes, this cutback is causing a major problem with the already overburdened people in those offices.

With the type of work that these social workers have to do, the day to day consultation with the people who are always demanding , and the type of living that they are on, I suppose some come to the point where they probably reach the burn L2669 Uol XL May 28, 1987 Jl ........ --- - out point. This is a uery serious thing, because the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett) himself stood in the House the other day and one of the things he said was that the point of the layoffs was to cutback to saue money.

Last year, in 1986, thE!Y hired them on because the social workers who were already there could not handle the case loads. Yet, at the same - time, he uery cle!arly said in answer to a question of mine, when I asked him if there were there as many people dependent on social services in 1987 as in 1986, and the minister very clearly said, yes, there are . As far as he could tell, there are possibly euen more people dependent on social services this year ouer last year. So, for that reason alone, there is no justification for the thirty-five layoffs. It is going to do se veral things to the people, Mr. Speaker.

Just this morning I had a call from one particular social worker in connection · with one of rny constituents that I had called two weeks earlier for her to look into a problem with a young boy with down syndrome . She told me today very clearly , because of the recent cutbacks and because of the layoffs that her extra caseload has become so burdened that she has not been able to, for the past week, go to see this particular family and probably will not for another week . Now, the layoffs have only taken place ouer the past couple of weeks and already the caseloads are starting to pile up.

Now, rny colleague from St. Barbe just alluded earlier to the fact that there is possibly going to be No. 50 R2669

_...._.,. _____ ..,. __ .. _____ ~- ... --- - -~--··--·- ...... -----·--- ·· .. -- ....... -~ ......... _ .. __ ~-·- ··· ···-·- ·· another thirty jobs cut back in the Department of SociQl Services. This is what is coming out of the regional and district offices right now. I hope this is false information.

If there is any consideration at all for any further cutbacks, well, the strain that it is going to put on those peqple, what you are going to see are those social workers will not be able to carry out their jobs and they are g.oing to get co-nfused and frustrated to the point where they are just going to throw down their jobs, either leave the position or they are just going to · sit down and you are going to see the services 4n social service deteriorate in such a fashion that there ·is going to be mass and total frustration, not only among the social workers, but among the people who need the services themselves.

It does not take a . mathematician to figure out where else the $700,000 could be saved. I will give you one example. Just recently the Premier announced that there is a five-member committee going to be appointed to monitor government spending. Here is an example of where we have one of the largest cabinets in any provincial party or a_ny provincial government in Canada with twenty-two cabinet ministers.

We have a Department of Finance which is supposed to be capably run, and the genius of all finance ministers is suppose to be at the head of it, and Auditor Generals Department, and here we are going to appoint a five-man committee which is going to cost the taxpayers of this Province an extra $500,000 to tell the cabinet ministers and to tell the Department of Finance how to spend money. L2670 Uol XL Ma~ 28, 1987 " MR . LONG : Where to cut back . MR. FUREY: Where they are screwing up . MR. EFFORD: Where they are already shafting. I will . not use the word my colleague for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) used.

To make matters worse, one of the people who are on that cornrni t tee is the D~puty Minister of Municipal Affairs who we already saw last year - there had to be a task force or a . committee set up to tell the Department of Municipal Affairs how to spend · money. We saw an example again this year where 95 per cent of the money went to the Tory districts and about 5 per cent to the Liberal districts, so we see the committee that he is now on acting the same way.

We · can · see the advantage that it is going to be to the monitoring of government spending and we can see exactly what is going to happen again in 1987. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. EFFORD: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, there are many areas where the government could put their priori ties in the right place and cut back ·on government spending instead of in the Department of Social Services. We, as the official opposition, implore the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett) and all ministers to take this under consideration and not to layoff, and possibly even to hire back those already cutback. MR.

SPEAKER: Before going to Orders of the Day, No. 50 R2670

--~ -------------~--------------.. I would lik~ to ~ay that there are two questions for the Late' Show. One is from the hon. the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) who is not satisfied with the answer he has from the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) on pensions and the second is to the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard) from the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) who is not satisfied about the recruiting of personnel for the oil refin-ery. Orders of the Day DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, just a word of explanation.

We are goin-g to call Order No. 2, which is Committee of Supply. We were previously. in Committee of Supply dealing with Consolidated Fund Services and, I believe, the Executive Council is also done in the Committee of the Whole. I did not happen to be here on that particular day. I think it was early April when we had a short period in Committee of -the Whole on these various heads, so we will call Order No. 2, Committee of Supply and go into the adjourned consideration of Consolidated Fund Services. On motion, itself into on Supply, Chair. that the House resolve Committee of the whole Mr.

Speaker left the Committee of the Whole on Supply MR. CHAIRMAN (Greening): L26'71 May 28, 198'7 • Vol XL Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS; Lead,er of the Mr. Chairman; I am go:ing to first of all talk about an issue that is dear to the heart of the Chairman, the gentleman who represents so ably in .this Chamber the district of Terra Nova, the g'entleman who is showing promise, Mr. Chairman, of being a man who lAlill one day soon follow the clarion ca~l of his conscience and find himself seated with his political fellow travellers, the liberals. Mr.

Chairman, like most people in 1 if e , he wants or he has need of a straw to break the carnel1 s back, as it were. I would suspect, Mr. Chairman, that· the straw that breaks the camel1s back for the gentleman for Terra Nova is Sprung. He is to be commended, I think you will agree, Mr. Chairman, for the restraint he has used on this particular matter. He kno~s more than he is saying out loud and ·he, like I, must find some real vindication from an item in The Evening Telegram today. I was just a little disappointed that my good friend from Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren), being the faithful scribe that he is, being one who directs our attention to every 1t1 that has not been crossed and every 1 i 1 that has not been dotted, today he rose in the Chamber and he drew attention to something that was in The Evening Telegram which did not suit his fancy or, to take him at his word, on which he had been misquoted or misrepresented. Mr. Chairman, I wonder why that same member did not bring to our attention the No. 50 R26'71

~ ~•·r •-• ._ .._ _ -·-#·-• - - ..__ -••'--•··--·~ •-- -··•-•·•..,.• ••-- • .. _. __ ... ·- ~ - -- ··- ·--- ·- matter of The Euening Telegram lead editorial today, because this is most instructive on the subject before the Committee at the present time. I believe if you reflect for a moment, Mr . Chairman, on what the member for Torngat Mountains did her. .e this afternoon here at 3:00 p.m., he rose to correct an inaccuracy.

The hon. gentleman from Torngat Mountains rose to correct an inaccuracy about something he had said and one must assume from that that he takes as gospel all the other things that ­ were in today•s paper. Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Page if she would come here, because I have got something that every member of the House should have and I would ask her to place it on the benches of all the government members and the two gent1emen who sit down in the far corner to my right, but philosophically about ten miles to my left, thank God.

I should ten say ten miles and thirty miles respectively to my left, 40 per cent of the caucus ten miles to my left, the other 60 per cent of that caucus sits thirty miles to my philosophic left. I should say to the members for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) and St. John • s East (Mr. Long) that I pride myself on being a left-leaning Liberal, which must never be confused with being a confused socialist. A confused socialist - it is a misnomer. How can you be other than confused if you are a socialist? That is another issue, Mr. Chairman.

I want to draw the attention of the House to this particular editorial in The Evening Telegram today. I notice that no member on the government side rose to take exception to it, so we L2672 May 28, 1987 # Vol XL ------- ·-----· ..... must assume that they agree with the heading on it, that the media has been fair. I am sure that thE! gentleman for Terra Nova would agree with that. There are a couple of instructive things in this particular editorial which I think are worth reading into the record . MR. MATTHEWS: Who wrote that? Not that Mainlander. MR. SIMMONS : Mr.

Chairman, I did not know that the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews) was into classifying journalists as being from Newfoundland or otherwise. Certainly that would not be a very fair categorization, I would assume. Some of my best friends are Mainlanders, I say to him. But in this editorial here I love. the third and last paragraph which says, 11 If the Premier · has no better reason than he did Monday for calling a press conference, don•t call us, we will call you. 11 I suggest they might not call him soon, Mr. Chairman.

They are grateful, just the same, that he did not call the press conference at five in the morning. My, oh, my! What have we come to? This once promising Premier is now reduced to midnight musings, to four of the clock morning ravings. I say to the gentleman from Terra Nova, he has a lot on his conscience, you know. Imagine what he has done to his Premier to keep him awake at nights wrestling with the matter of his own sanity, writing statements saying, 11 Where did I go wrong? 11 MR. BARRETT : Give him credit. He is a hard No. 50 R2672

---------------·---·--· ··-· ---- ···- -.. ··- . working man. MR. SIMMONS : The gentleman from Terra Nova is a hard working man. The gentleman from Terra Nova is, first of all, a gentleman, he is secondly a hard working man, and, thirdly, he deserves better treatment than he is . getting on the Sprung deal.

And he is as baffled as we are as to why that did not wind up out in Terra Nova or maybe out in Cormack, out in one of those places where they get some half decent weather, and which places are relatively near international · airports if we are going to fly .all . this stuff to the United States and Japan and so on and so forth . Mr. Chairman, some day the story on Sprung will come out. By that time, I would suggest the gentleman from Terra Nova will be sit t i n g with hi s phi 1 o s o j:> hi c s o 1 e mates. I make that prediction.

I do not want to reveal any confidences, any off the record chats, I just want to say that the gentleman from Terra Nova is about to do something momentus and, at the same time, something that he can live with the rest of his life. In terms of process he might want to seek advice from the gentleman from Port au Port (Mr. Hodder). or the gentleman from Torngat Mountains, both of whom could advise him on the considerable ramifications of making the Damascus Road trip . Mr. Chairman, the other issue I wanted to talk about in these few remaining minutes is called the Dr. Doug House Royal Commission Report.

And this really relates, this connects up very well with what I was saying about the gentleman from Terra Nova a minute L2673 Uol XL May 28, 1987 Ji ago. If he feels abandoned on this issue of Sprung, his sole mate on this one is called Dr. Doug House. He now knows what Dr. House felt like after being abandoned so badly on the Royal Commis sian Report, where the taxpayers invested $3 million, where Dr.

House and his commissioners came up with some first-clasi recommendations about how to revitalize rural Newfoundland, including Terra Nova, and then not only was the report completely ignored, but we get Sprung and we get a number of job creation endeavours, all of which are urban oriented and which fly in the face of the House Commission Report as though the government even needed that report to tell them where the need is in this Province.

And so I say to the gentleman from Terra Nova, perhaps one of those evenings, on a quiet evening before he .makes that momentus move that I know he will make, he should· first go and talk to Dr. Doug Ho use, because there he would get a non-partisan viE!W, a substantive view of what it is like to be completely abandoned by a bunch of opportunists who had pretended erstwhile that they were your political friends and supporters. Sprung and the House Commission Report go hand in hand because, Mr. Chairman, the first is a complete contradiction of the second.

Sprung is a complete rejection of everything that the House Report stands for; it is public testimony that the $3 million invested in the House Commission Report was money absolutely wasted, thrown to the four winds . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! No. 50 R2673

--- ... - ·-- -·-~ · ·------ ---- ·--···- ···-··--· ....... _ .. _ .. , .... ____ ·-· -·· -·-·--· ···-···· The hon. member's time is up . MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr . Chairman . DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, just a very brief word on this Sprung issue. Mr. Chairman, I am not sure what the Opposition is up to on this, quite frankly. I suggest that the reason why the official Opposition has been in opposition for so long is that they have no long term plan.

Because if the Opposition had a long term plan that went beyond, say, a month, they would know that they are digging themselves into such a hole that when this venture is completed and comes off, they are going to have to try to eat all these words, where they have said the whole thing cannot work; it is nonsense, and all this sort of thing.

They are clearly falling into a trap set for them by vested interests who are scared to death that Newfoundland is putting in place a ~otally new venture in the high-cost agricultural field, the high-cost type of product, the products that will not interfere with our traditional agricultural undertakings here, such as turnip, potatoes, cabbage, carrots and so on, or with lifestock, rnilk production, egg production, and so on and so forth: Now, how can one conceive that people ranging all the way across Canada are so concerned that the Newfoundland Government might be making a wrong investment?

Has there ever been a concern expressed before by people when we L2674 May 28, 1987 1 Vol XL went into something, saying, 'Oh, we must protect the Newfoundland people from their government?' It has never happened before and it is not happening now.

It is clearly ridiculous to think that the Minister of Agriculture in Nova Scotia, for instance, God bless him, is so concerned to protect Newfoundland people that he has to come out against this type of thing, or that the greenhouse owners in Ontario are so concerned about the welfare of the Newfoundland people that they came out and had to protest what the Newfoundland Government is doing. I mean, ,it is so clearly ridiculous to think that way, and the Opposition are going along with this. Now, sooner or later they are going to have to try to explain these attitudes they are having, and they · are inexplicable.

They are going to get themselves into such a hole, as they did over thE! fishery restructuring, over our controversy with the Trudeau Liberals to get our rightful management place with regard to the offshore, and over many other things like that. They are killing themselves, they are cutt~ng their own throats, they are their own worse enemies in these sorts of attitudes they are taking. I appeal to them, because we need an official Opposition in this Province which is a credible alternative. It is not really a credible Opposition if they are not a credible alternative to the government.

Now, with the attitude the Opposition is taking, they will never be looked upon as a credible alternative. With these sorts of foolish approaches, this sort of being taken in by vested interests who really have no concern, who No. 50 R2674 ~-- -- ·---- - --· ---- ·------- -·-- --· -- .. --·-- ·· ---·- ··- -- ---· .. . ·--- ---· ....

have no brief for the welfare of the Newfoundland people, what that means is that you end up with a government that will be here forever, and I do not think that is a good thing. We are going to be here well into the next millennium if the Opposition does not get its act together, does not evQlve some long term strategy whereby they will not be continually caught out by taking short term, indefensible positions that blow up in their faces after a period of time. MR. SIMMS: What about the NDP position? DR . COLLINS: Well, I hesitate to talk about the NDP position because I do not think they have a position.

At least the Liberals have their own sort of sense of short term su~vival in mind . We, on this side, have a very perceplive long term strategy and long term plans for the benefit of this Province. The NDP? You do not know what they are. This day they are going one way and another day they are going the other. The NDP are consistent in one thing: It does not matter what a law is, it does not matter what an arrangement is, it does not matter what an agreement is, if they suddenly decide we do not like it, they are going to take an entirely self-centered view.

For instance, a clear example: It was i llega 1 to have a strike in the public service without the designation of essential workers. That was written into the law. Now, you may not agree with it, but it was written into the law. In our society you abide by the law unless the law is changed and, if you do not like it, you work to change the law. L2675 May 28, 1987 Vol XL " Now, that was written into the law and the leader of the NDP did not agree with it . Did he try to change to it and that was the approach he took? No, he defied it . Now, if you defy laws you have anarchy. But the NDP are consistent this way.

They are totally self-centered . They will take a position that has nothing to do with the understandings in society, with the obligations in society, with the statutory instruments we put in place for the conduct of society, they will take a totally self-centered view of things and that is consistent. I have to say that for the NDP, they are consistent in that approach. Now, it is consistently bad, of course, for the running of society.

And God forbid that the NDP would ever take over in this Province, because they will do what they did when the equivalent of the NDP took over in Britain, i.e., the labour group there I the socialists there . They ran it into the ground . MR. BAIRD : And in British Columbia . DR . COLLINS: In -British Col umbia they did the same thing . In Manitoba I one of the more mixed, better economies in the country, they are now looked upon as the most underfinancially managed province in Canada . Their debt is skyrocketing.

The credit rating agencies are tearing their hair out over the manage ment of the economy in Manitoba. So, I am just saying that because they have no concept of the ordering of society but only take a very short-term, self-centered, navel-watching view, they are a menace. But I am sure the good people of Newfoundland will not allow themselves to be taken in by No. so R2675

- ·-~ ·- - ----- -- -- ... '·-- ·--· ---···· ·-·------- ...... ------ ··--- --~·· -··-- ... -----···· ... ··-·-- ··· .. ·- such a menace. But I am concerned about the Liberals, because the Liberals are the natural alternative in this Province and they getting themselves into such holes with these short-term policies that blow up in their faces that I am af~aid they will never be in a position to challenge us seriously. MR. FUREY: Mr. Chairman . MR; CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: How much time is left? MR. CHAIRMAN: The time is up . MR. FUREY: Just a quick point, Mr. Chairman.

It is almost laughable to · hear the Minister of Finance talk about and use the word 1 credibility' . He talks about credibility and his dynasty that the Tories will have in this particular Province. He should know that dynasty comes from the Greek