VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, JUNE 2, 1980 NO. 54

June 2, 1980 The Bouse met ~t 3:00 P.M. Mr. speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEk~R (Simms) : Tape No. l97l EL - l Order, please~ I would like to welcome to the Galleries on behalf of hon. members three members of the Council from the town of Kippens, the Local Improvement District of Kippens,including the Chairman, Mr.Lionel Vincent,and counsellors CUrtis O"Neil and Kater Best. I trust they will enjoy their visit. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, h~ar! MR. SPEAKER: I would now like to deal with the co- incidental points of privilege raised on Friday past by the hon. the member for Bonavista North (L.

Stirling) and in the same sequence of events by the hon. the President of the Council (W. Marshall).

I will quote first of all from Beauchesne, fifth edition, paragraph 17, page ll,which reads in part: "A question of privilege ought r~ely to come up in Parliament." It goes on to say that, "A genuine question of privilege is a most serious matter and shoul.d be taJcen seriously by the House." On page 12, paragraph 19, subsection 1, the following is stated: "A dispute arising between two members, as to allegations of facts, does not fulfill the conditions or parliamentary privilege." Beauchesne, fifth edition, paragraph 80 states that "A question of privilege is a question partly of fact and partly of law, the law of contempt of Parliament, and is a matter for the House to determine." So it follows that a Speaker cannot rule on a question of privilege.

His function,when a question of privilege is raised,is limited to deciding whether the matter he of such a character as to entitle the motion, which the member who has raised the question desires to move to priority over the Orders of the Day." In other words, it is the duty of the SpeaJcer to decide if a prima facie case can be established. So the Speaker requires to be satisfied both that the privilege appears to be sufficiently involved to justify him in giving such precedence 5178

• June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1971 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : and also that the matter has been raised at the earliest opportunity. Considering all these references and in doing some research on the precedents and types of points of privilege that have been raised in this House in the past, I find that the points of privilege raised on Friday fall into similar categories that we have had before in that both hon. members took the opportunity in rising under a point of privilege to clarify their positions with respect to remarks or with respect to stories that had been carried in the media.

Both members pointed out that their remarks were misinterpreted and asked for a retraction. So I would therefore would rule that in the case of the points of privilege raised by the hon. the member for Bonavista North (L. Stirling) as well as the hon. the President of the council (W. Marshall), my ruling would be the same for both, that each member took the opportunity to clarify his position and that in this particular aituation a prima facie case has not been established. MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. THOMS: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the member for Grand Bank. Mr.

Speaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the Minister of Justice. It is no longer, Mr. Speaker, hypothetical or speculative that there is a planned walkout of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. My question is to the minister in connection with the police protection that is given to the city at this time. I would like to know what the normal complement of police­ men are in the city en any given shift- the graveyard shift, eight to four etc .- and how that compares to the complement of RCMP officers now policing the city? 5179

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1972 ow - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, actually the city is being policed now by the RCMP and also commis­ sioned officers of the Constabulary- they are not in­ volved in the ~alkout - and there is the same comple­ ment of men, those two categories, on the shift now as would be if it were not for the walkout.

So just to make it clear,the city is being policed by the RCMP and also by commissioned officers of the Newfound­ land Constabulary and the same number of people, the same complement of men in the cars 1 etc.,is in operation using these two sources as if there were not a walkout. Now with respect to what the usual numbers are at specific times, I think the bon. gentleman will probably see that, in terms of security it is not a matter which has usually been given, how many say,are patrolling, you know, on 'a' shift or 'b' shift or 'c' shift or that type of thing.

I would give it to the hon. gentleman in private and in confidence 1but it is not a matter which is usually made public, you know. Irrespective of present circumstances,! think the reasons would be obvious. But I certainly would give it to the hon. gentleman in private and in confidence. MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, I was wondering if the Minister of Justice would not agree that it is probably that you need more RCMP policing this city than you would city police because I understand that the RCMP do not know the city like the Royal Newfoundland Constabu- lary and it is a matter of fact that the RCMP have to 5180

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1972 DW - 2 MR. L. THOMS: ask directions within the city. So ~ould you not agree that you need more RCMP to police the city than you do the normal policemen? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, if I did not,and I well may not have,but I intended to say that at least the same number of men in cars as would be-out of these two sources-as would be if it were not for the present situation. So that is what I certainly intended to indi- cate.

The hon. gentleman's question with respect to some of the RCMP officers not knowing the city as well, I suppose that would depend on the. individuals, I imagine some would and no doubt some would not.You 1 know, that could well be, yes. MR. L. THOMS:. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, Mr. A final supplementary, the hen. member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to know from the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) where the RCMP personnel are coming from to police the city of st. John's and whether or not this may, in fact, weaken the police protection outside the city of St.

John's? 51 B 1

June 2, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. OTTENHEIMER: Tape No. 1973 The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I am assured that it NM - 1 will not , that there is no weakening of police protection in other areas. Now specifically where each comes from and that I really could not say because once we communicated to the RCMP under the contract, because as the hon. gentleman is aware under the contract with Canada and the Province, the RCMP may be called in to do provincial policing in any area of the Province, then obvioulsy they supply the men.

So I think a number are from here and it is not always necessarily a question of men necessarily coming from somewhere else, although there may well be some but there are also questions such as longer shifts, double shifts, shift and a half, vacation or two days off or time off being cancelled, being postponed, vacations being postponed, that type of internal arrangement. MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: The hon. member for Bonavista North. I will yield to the member for Grand Bank. Thank you. The hon. member for Grand Bank. Mr.

Speaker, just one further question, if I may,to the minister and that is whether or not there is at the present time any attempt by his department being made to get all parties together, all parties concerned together to try to resolve the problem that we have at present? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well certainly, Mr. Speaker. The department is in close touch with the officers of the Constabulary, and with the RCMP in that they are provincial policing here, that is essentially co-ordinated by Chief Roche and by his officers. There has been no request for a meeting.

Certainly I know that the Chief and the Deputy Chief, certainly officers would be glad to meet and indeed officials of the Department of Justice would be glad to meet. But up to now to my knowledge there has not been any initiative with respect to seeking a meeting. 5182

June 2, 198 0 Tape No . 1973 NM- 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon . rne.mber for aon avi s ta Nor th . MR.. STIRLING: Mr. Sj?eaker, I also have a question for the Minister of Justice.

I would like his opinion on a suggestion, qnd I do not know whether it has been made to him or ncit, the minister has made the point that of course the government has the right and the responsibility to manage the police force, and a leader has to have somebody behind him and obviously now you have a man in a position of a deputy position and the feeling, I take it the minister now accepts, it just was not the President speaking, that he does accept the fact that generall.y all. the :!lien feel. that this is not an acceptable position.

Has the minister accepted that position that the men generally will not accept this position? MR. SPEAKER: MR . OTTENHEIMER : The han. the Minister of Justice. Wel.l, ·Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the decision is quite unpopul.ar in a nlll!lber of quarters. 5 18 3

June 2,1980 Tape No.l974 AH-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: That is obvious. I do not really know that there is much more that I can answer to that question . Obviously it is not universally welcomed and is unpopular in some quarters , that would appear to be a matter of fact in the record . MR.STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary. A supplementary.

The hon. member Taking what the minister said earlier, that this particular individual has very special qualities in the recruiting, training, experience personnel area,and you now have a problem from the point of view of all the men and the career officers, would the minister consider a suggestion in which this person be put .. because of his special training experience ,into a special category as a special advisor, somebody that uses his - like a staff type position rather thaninsert him into the ranks and cause this problem?

In other words,you can use his skills in a position of being an advisor to the Chief on all of these special areas,and then remove him out of the line of fire where the man is now put in a position where he cannot operate. Would you give that some consideration? MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I do not think that we can sort of reorganize the management and senior management , the top management of the Constabulary on that basis.

The general delineation of authority is Chief Roche,obviously Chief of Police,at the top; the next senior man is Deputy Chief Randell, with respect to operations,and then Deputy Chief Coady with respect to administration. And this is the kind of organiza~ion and management organization and working relationship which has been agreed upon and planneq out, and indeed suggested by the Chief,so I do not think really that we would undertake total reorganization and change people's titles or positions or that.

I do not think that that would be beneficial; it may well be nothing more than cosmetics and, you know, I am not trying to fool anybody, 5184

June 2,1980 Tape No. 1974 AB -2 ~!R. O'I'TENBEn-IE.R: none of the government is trying to fool anybody, the person in question has been appoin~ed Deputy Chief a."ld we are not going to try to blindfold the devil in t:he dark and call him some~ng else. MR.STIRLING: A final supplementary. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): A final supplementa:.-y. The hon. member for 3onavista North.

MR.STIRLING: ~lould the minister not agr ee that we have now reached the position in which there is a s~nd-off, the government has taken the posicion that •we have deemee it, we have made the rules and that is it,you are going to have to follow it;and if people that are being governed have decided that is unacceptable ,·~uld the minister confirm to ~~s House that: he is prepared - forgetting all of the rights and powers and authority, I am not questioning that: - would the minister ,in the inte:.-est of the protection of the people, would the minister .indicate to the House that he is prepared to take the initiative in finding out why this is so unacceptable and to bring together on your own initiative the people who are involved at all of the levels to see if 'this thing cannot be talked out and find a way to solve the p::oblem-?

Will the :!!.inister take t!:e initiative in calling that kind of a meetinc? 5185

June 2, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Tape 1975 EC - 1 The hon. the Minister of Justice. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am certainly willing to take any kind of initiative which would be a reasonable one and which might,without prejudicing ~ertain matters of principle and policy, which would lead to a resolution of it 1 I certainly am willing to do that. I do not think that it would be appropriate at the IIIOment for me to, for example, take the Chief and two Deputy Chiefs and try to get them involved in something else because obviously they are quite busy- MR. L. STIRLING: twenty-four hours? MR. G.

OTTENHEIMER: Will you call it within the next - but apart from that, certainly any reasonable effort which can be made, I am certainly quite willing to make it. But when one hears the word, 'The only thing that will satisfy will be so-and-so being fired or resigning or not being deputy chief,' then that obviously narrows the area of discussion in this particular case if that continues to be the adamant position. MR. SPEAKER: · MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROWE: The hon. member for LaPoile. I yield, Mr. Speaker. The hen. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Justice has indicated that they have a number of RCMP on shift work to bring it up to the same level at least as before. Presumably they are from the rural parts of Newfoundland. Could the minister indicate to the House, Sir, how they can decrease the number of RCMP working in the rural parts of Newfoundland, or at least outside of st. John's, and not in fact decrease ~~e efficiency of the law outside of St. John's? How can you decrease the number of RCMP people in rural Newfoundland or outside St. John's and not decrease the efficiency of law enforcement outside the St. John's area? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. 5186

Jun.e 2, 1980 Tape 1975 EC - 2 MR. G. OTTENHE::tMER: Mr. Speaker, of course, as hon. members are probably aware, there is a detachment of RCMP just a few miles from here. MR. F. ROWE: Yes. MR. G. O'l'TENHEIMER: And as ::t mentioned in answer to a question fr0111 the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms), there are more ways than one of covering shifts, you know, vacations can be cancelled or postponed. MR. F. ROWE: Are they? MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: There are so many days off a week or a working period that people have that can be cancelled: Shifts can be longer. There are a number of things. What ::t said in answer to a previous question is that these are factors as well. 5187

June 2, 1980 ~IR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEI'.!~ (Simms) MR. F. ROWE: Tape No. 1976 SD - l Mr. S~eaker. The han. member for Trinity - Eay de Verde. The minister has indicated that there are a number of things, there can be a nu~ber of things that can be done. Now, the question is not whether they can be done , are they in fact being done? Do we have double shifting, do we have people being recalled from holidays and that kind of a thing to keep the law enforcement equal in St. John's and at the same time outside of St. John's? Not can- are, was, is. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, of ccurse, our instructions to the RCHP were to, you know, in concert and in ccnsul tation with the Chief of Police, the Constabulary, you know, to provide - ~ HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Wishful thinking from the hon.~entlemen. AN HON. MEMBER: Has he resigned? MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Actually the man has never resigned at all, he has been r~ured as having resigned. Coming into work this morning I heard an interview that he was due to resign and then he was out jogging, apparently.

But to get back to the han. gentleman's question, our instructions were for the RCMP to make available for policing in the St. John's are .a the men and facilities which, in conjunction with the c:ommissioned officers of the Constabulary, would provide a level of policing which is customary and to do so without a prejudicial effect on policing in other parts of the Province.

Now the exact detail, you kr.o•.r, they do not send into me, you know, 'l·1e are taking Constable 5o-and-5o and cancelling his day here,and instead of working eight hours this one is going to work twelve.' You know, those internal details, the Force itself implements so I could not say how many men have had a vacation cancelled or how many men are going to lose their one or two days off this week or how many men will work a shift and one half or a eouble shift, that type of thing. You know, those are matters which the officers in the forces concerned work out.

It does not really come through me or go thrciugh anybody in the Department of Justice, those kinds of internal administration 51A8

June 2, 1.96 0 Tape No. 19 76 SD - 2 MR. G, OTTENHEIMER: arJ.d assignments of people and that, you know, that really would not c·ome to my knowledge, those details. MR. F . ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: A final suppleJDentary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hen. member for Those obviouSlY should certainly come to the knowledge of the hon. minister, Mr. Speaker; he should make himself aware of it. Mr.

Speaker, my final supplementary involves the fact that the minis ·ter stated that they had about the same nUI!Iber .- if I can get the minister's attention -of people now on shift work in the St. John's area as previous to this booking off with the blue 'flu - MR. G. Ctl'TENHEIMER: I am sorry, I did not hear you. MR. F. ROWE: This is why I was trying to get the minister's attention. The minister has stated that they have approximately the sallie number of people at least on shift wo:tk - AN HON . MEMBERS : l'.nd in cars. MR. F. ROWE: - and in ca7;5 and this sort of thing. Now what conce%lls me, Mr.

Speaker, is the situation as it relates to special ongoing investigations and stake-outs. AN HOb!. MEMBER: Stake-outs not take-outs. MR. F. ROWE: Not take-outs, stake-outs and I have been reluctant in the last few 1110nths to bring this before the floor of the House of Assembly,but the matter has been made public on a number of occasions, Mr. Speaker, 5189

June 2, 1980, Tape 1977, Page 1 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: through the news media. But in the St. John's East area, as the minister well knows, there is a terrific scare in that area, there is a madman on the loose since last June - MR. J. CARI'ER: A peeping Tom. MR. F. B.ROWE: That is some funny, Mr. Speaker. Let it be heard that the hon. member thinks this is funny, the hon. the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter). AN HON. MEMBER: A rapist. MR. F.B.ROWE: Well, in the area where he presently resides, Mr.

Speaker, there is a nut running around the area with a bayonet, dressed up in an old army uniform, who has successfully completed three rapes. And there have been stake-outs in the East end of St. John's for almost twelve months now and,obvi~usly, that is not the only incident of its kind in a city of in excess of 100,000 people. What I am asking the minister, what is happening to these types of ongoing serious, intensive investigations which require, obviously, more people ~ just the normal shift work, parking meters and this kind of a thing?

I could not give a heck how many people are parking illegally in this city as long as we, the House is informed that the people in this Province are safe from that kind of a situation. Is that situation being covered? And would the minister please indicate to the House exactly how it is being covered? Without what can be done, or what may be done, what is being done to protect these people who are extremely nervous in this particular instance? MR. SPEAKER(Simms}: The bon. the Minister of Justice. 5190

June 2, 1980, Tape 1977, Page 2 -- apb MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the level, the same level of police protection, and by that I mean the whole area of police protection, is being provided now as previously because the personnel being used are corning form the officers of the Constabulary and from the R.C.M.P. And,obviously, the situation the hon. gentleman refers to, and the attempt to apprehend, identify and apprehend that person has not lost anything in its priority nor, indeed, in its seriousness nor in the efforts to bring to a successful conclusion that investigation. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER(Sirnrns): Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: friend would agree. A!J HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: The hon. the member for the Mr. Speaker, if my hon. Sure. I would like to explore with the Minister of Justice another aspect of the very serious situation which has developed with the sudden epidemic of sickness which has swept through our police force in St. John's. The minister mentioned that the R.C.M.Police have responded to his request for assistance and I assume that is under the terms of the contract between the Province and Ottawa, the same contract, I may add, under which Mr.

Diefenbaker refused to provide the Government of the Province with R.C.M.Police twenty-odd years ago, leading to the ~·cai;~ation of - who was the man? - Commissioner Nicholson. MR. CARl'ER: (Inaudible) a question or a speech. 5191

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1,978 ow - l MR. E. ROBERTS: ~y friend for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) may think it is a speech but if he was not so set in his ways he might learn and that would not do him any harm, Sir, it might even benefit the rest of us . The question I have, I do know whether this contract has been made public in its current form. I think from time to time it has been tabled but I am not aware of whether the present one has been or not. Perhaps the minister could tell us whether the government are going to have to pay any extra monies to the Govern­ ment of Canada?

Because, as I understand it, the minister could confirm or deny this as is appropriate, we pay the RCM Police in return for the policing services which they provide at the provincial and municipal levels as opposed to the federal level. And they are now providing provin- cial and municipal services here in the· city of st. John's, that is certainly not federal work, they a~e replacing the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary for the time being. Will this cost,us any extra money? What are the terms of the contract? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENBEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman is quite right. It is under the terms of the contract be- tween Canada and Newfoundland with respect to provincial policing. The general breakdown there is 56 per cent for the Province, 44 J!!l-· E. ROBERTS: Fifty-six/forty-four. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: - per cent from the Federal Government. There is a provision,obviously, in the contract covering the present situation and indeed, it was as a requirement and obligation that, you know, the services are being performed. It is not, in a sense, as I am sure the 5192

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1978 DW - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: hon. gentleman is aware, as a favour type of thing but as a requirement. MR. E. ROBERTS: Oh, it is a contractual re- quirement but Davey Fulton refused to honour it (inaudible) MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: With respect to whether this Will bring additional cost or not, that is a matter which to be accurate, I would want to check the specific clauses of the contract.

It is my understanding, but I say this, you know, subject to correcting and giving more informa­ tion tomorrow, that initially that need not be the case, that that is not necessarily the case but before saying any more I would want specifically to have that parti­ cular clause to examine it. MR, E. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir, and I thank the minister and I look forward to getting further infer- mation.

Could he also perhaps tell us now, and if he could not, would he undertake to get the information, whether extra RCM Police officers - when I say officers I do not just mean - or personnel are being brought into the Province? The RCM Police, I believe, have about 700 men and wome~ of all ranks stationed within Newfoundland now and if they are going to move 200 of them into St. John's, which is what it will take - MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: (!naudible) ---- MR. E. ROBERTS: Well, to replace 200 it will take 200. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: (Inaudible) on shifts. MR . E.

ROBERTS: Well, the 200 are on shifts, I would say to the minister too. Either it takes 200 to police St. John's adequately or it does not, and we have been using 200, therefore presumably it does. The minister is on a cleft stick when he tries that one. 5193

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 197!1 DW - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS: Could he tell us whether the RCM Police are intending or have they already moved in extra personnel? If not, do they intend to? And that is not a matter of wanting any secret security information, 5194

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1979 EL - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: it is simply a matter of, you know, 700 men are now attempting to do what 900 men have hitherto been doing, how long are we going to have to put up with the 700 or so forth? MR. SPEAJCER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OT'l'ENHEIMER: Mr .Speaker, to the best of my knowledge there are no additions from outside the Province and that,of course,part of the slack is taken up through vacations, perhaps longer shifts, days off being cancelled or postponed • so, as of now, to my knowledge, there are no additional out of Province personnel. MR. E.

POBERTS: MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Any intention of bringing them in? As of now, no . MR. E. POEERTS: Because, I mean, those arrangements will only lliork in the very short term. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, all I c~ say is, you know, as of now and the hon. gentleman is aware it i• a matter in which pne bas to judge a situation as and when and if it continues and develops. MR • ..E. POBERTS: to day? MR. SPEAKER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. S. NEARY: who wants to get on his feet. MR. SPEAKER: The minister then is living from day The hon. the member for LaPoile. sure, speak now.

I will yeild to ~ hon. friend The hon. member for LaPoile yields to the hon. member for Eagle River (E. Hiscock). MR. E. HISCOCX: My question is to the Minister of Justice with regard to the police issue and that basically as regards that in art of politics when you have a problem the best way to divert the pro­ blem is create a camouflage and get some other issue, and it is that regard that we heard on the news today that extradition of John c. Doyle between 5195

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1070 FL - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: the provincial government. My question to the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer), is this a diversionary tactic? And basically we have been waiting so lon9 in this Province - we have been waiting so long in this Province and we always hear the announcement but nothing is ever done about it, when can we expect this Department of Justice to basically have a date an~ to have Mr. Doyle back in the Province? SOME HON. MEM.BEPS : MR. SPEAKEP.: (Simms) MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Oh, oh! The bon. the l'inister of Justice. Mr.

Specker, I think the hon. gentleman's question is a diversionarv tactic not the in.tervfew that he nay have heard. J>.ctually, I do not recall if it was last Thrusclay or Friday, last week some day, a reporter, one of the radio stations ask me that question - MR. S. NEARY: Probably CBC. "'R. G. OTTENHEIMER: I do not think it was CBC. I believe it was one of the two private radio stations asked me the question with respect that the bon. gentleman has referred to, and I presumed they used it that day. I was not even aware that it was used today, but it was last week that the question was asked.

And the hon. gentleman wants to know what the answer was. The answer is obviously the saroe as I gave to that reporter and that is that, you know, it is something which is in progress. It is not a matter, obviously exclusively of provincial jurisdiction, there is a federal area as well. Obviously there is a country, a non- Canadian country involved as well. That essentially is what I told the reporter and that was a few days ago. I am not sure if it was last Thrusday or Friday.

But with respect to that being diversionary, it certainly was not because I gave him the answer last week and I presume they did not use it until today. 5196

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1980 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for LaPoile. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR . HANCOCK: Nobody else on the police? MR . NEARY: My question has to do with police work, Mr . Speaker, but I want to change the subject slightly and the question has to do with these Nevada tickets that are being sold now wholesale around this Province. Would the minister indicate to the House if it is legal, if it is legal for anybody and everybody to peddle these tickets,and if it is not legal,then what is the minister doing about it? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR .

OTTENHEIMER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman probably knows, Newfoundland, PEI, New Brunswick, the Yukon and the Northwest Territories are the five jurisdictions where there is no licencing body, group, with respect to games of chance, bingo, wheel of fortune, etc. Newfoundland, we, are now examining the practice in the provinces where there are licencing boards, with a view to developing regulations and procedures for the licencing of certain games of chance by charitable and philanthropic organizations.

And then it would be illegal- only people,let us say, in bona fide charitable organizations, philanthropic organizations, that type, whether church affiliated, fraternal club affiliated groups working for handicapped or for OL~er people, only those would be granted a licence and obviously there would be certain regulations and it would not be - no others would then be allowed to operate any of these games of chance.

It is the first time in this Province there has been thought of this kind of regulation and licencing board and we hope to bring that into effect and have it refined and finalized within approximately a six to eight week period. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. We have time for one final question. The hon. member for LaPoile. 5197

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1980 ~I- 2 MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I woul<! gather fro:n the hon . minister's answer that these tickets are being peddled and sold illegally in this Province at the present time and I asked the minister in the beginning if it is illegal to peddle these Nevada or Las Vegas, whatever you want to call them, tickets , What is the minister doing about it, especially in these corner stores ~~at are selling them to school children? liould the minister indicate if they are going to put a stop to this nonsense right away because obviousl y it is illegal at the moment? MR . SPEAKER (Simms): The hon .

Minister of Justice . MR. OTTENREIMER: Well, Mr. Speaker, you know, technically all games of chance are now illegal, you know, including when a group go out to play bingo; you ltnow,aJ.l of these things are now illeqal. What has to be determined, where you have to have licencing is to see that it is only those kinds of orqanizations, which I indicated, are runni .ng these t.l)ings. In other words,it would be quite improper for somebody,you know, commercially to be selling these things,

whereas under a licencing system, pe.rmission would be given or could be given for a 51 98

June 2,1980 Tape No . 1981 I'<H--1 ~!R . OTTENREIMER: philanthropic or a charitable organization to so do . So these are the matters whi ch we have to get definite guidelines on and see from the practice in other provinces with respect to such a licensing board what their criteria for charitable, philanthropic, etc., kinds of organizations are . MR. NEAR'! : MR . SPEAKER: (Simms) ~!R. SPEAKER: Energy . HR. BA.'tR'f: 'lou still have not answered the que~on . Order, please ! The time for oral Questions has expired. NOTICE OF NOTION The han . the 11inister of Mines and Mr.

Speaker, ! give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Department Of ~lines and -energy Act , 1973." (Bill No . 65) . This will ratify the setting up of the petroleum directorate. ANSW""..RS TO QUESTIONS t'OR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN M;R. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Larids and Forests. MR.POWER: Mr. Speaker, I will answer question number nine asked by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) on Thursday, May 8th with regard to building lots at Hogan 1 s Pond area and just say that there are eighty-three lots approved. MR. NEARY: MR. POWER: SOME BON .MEMBERS: MR.

POWER: Hawco 1 s Pond. Hawco's Pond. I am sorry , Sir. Oh, Oh! In Hawco' s Pond, Mr. Speaker, there have been eighty-three building lots or summer cottage lots approved. They wer ,e all approved in the order in which they were received by the department. There was absolutely no interference from either the former Premier or former m_inister. There were no applications recommended by ei -ther the former Premier or the former minister and they were all done above .board . 51 99

May 2,1980 MR.SPEAKER (Simms): MR. HISCOCK: Tape No. 1981 1m-2 PRESENTING PETITIONS The han. member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of the people of Cartwright-Paradise River area and it concerns having Groswater Mountain Zone area opened up for caribou. They say that this should be opened immediately,' we feel that the zone has been closed long enough to allow the herd to increase.' Basically they feel that now that the herd there has increased and iE it is opened now even for a short period in the Winter or in the Spring.

I would ask the Minister of Tourism ,Recreation and Culture (Mr.Dawe) to look into this matter and have their environmental biologists study this area of having the caribou herd opened. What has happened, they say, is that when the construction of the Upper Churchill took place it cut across through the migrating pattern and as a result the major herd is now up North and the small herd is down South just North of Groswater Mountain.

I would hope that the minister would also look into the fact that the caribou herd farther down the coast and also the moose herd that is coming across the straits area from Quebec and basically with regard to wildlife on the South and East coast of Labrador. Two hundred and twelve people, by the way , Mr. Speaker, signed this petition and with the high cost of living on the coast of Labrador and with particularly meat this is basically a stable diet.

If they find that the herd is not increasing itself naturally,then would the minister look into the possibility of having some of the herd air lifted from the North of Nain and brought down South thereby giving the chances of increasing that herd in the future? MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: petition - MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Any further petitions? Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the The han. member for LaPoile. - so ably presented ~y the member 5200

1-'.ay 2,1980 Tape No. 1981 AK-3 HR. NEARY: for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock).

It seems to be a very serious message in this particular petition that because of man disturbing the environment, namely the construction of the Upper Churchill, th .e caribou herd seem to have - at least the people think the caribou herd has been divided and the majority of the caribou went North up towa rds Nain , And for some reason.! would gather from the remarks of the hon. gentleman, the ca ribou herd that was left behind, the sma .ller portion of it, are not reproducing and if something is not done, if a study is not undert .aken, the caribou herd and indeed the moose herd could probably become extinct.

So I hope tl>.at at least as a result of this petition the minister, if he does not see fit to open Groswater Mountain to hum:ing now by the people who live in the a.rea. that at least t.ltey do a study to see what is happening , why the caribou herd is not reproducing in that area. Does the minister want to say something? 52 01

June 2, 1980 MR. E. HISCOCK: MR. S. NEARY: MR. L. THOMS: Tape 1982 North of Eagle River. Yes. And he is from Labrador. EC - 1 MR. S. NEARY: ~~d the hon. gentleman represents the Labrador district and did not know where Groswater Mountain was or the Mealy Mountains . But anyway, Mr. Speaker, 212 people have signed the petition. They apparently have been denied the privilege and the opportunity to hunt caribou and moose in th•t area.

There has been a freeze put on, brought about mainly because of the construction of the Upper Churchill, and _ I believe now the time has come to take a good, hard look at this situation. And as my hon. friend says, if they are not reproducing, if there is some reason for it, then they should airlift, because I believe up in one of the member's other districts recently they were hunting caribou from a helicopter. They were doing some research and I believe they killed off a large number of caribou to help them with their research.

Some of these helicopters should be used to bring the caribou down into Labrador South, down in the area that my hon. friend _referred to in the petition. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Any further petitions? ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. W. MARSHALL: Concurrence debate, Mr. Speaker, on Government Services Committee. MR. SPEAKER: Order 4, concurrence motions, Government Services Committee. I understand there are forty-five minutes remaining on the concurrence debate of that particular report. The hon. the member for LaPoile, if he is standing. MR. S. NEARY:_ Mr. Speaker, I want to have a few words on this concurrence debate.

I want to raise, first of all, Mr. Speaker, the matter of the government's bankers. I am glad today to see tha~ the Ministar of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) is in his seat because perhaps he can enlighten the House 1 and me in particular, as to why it is necessary to carry on with the Bank of Montreal'. The Bank of Montreal now have been 5202

June 2, 1980 Tape 1982 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY: the government's bankers for a considerable period of time and I am just wondering, Mr. Speaker, if that is necessary, and what we have to do to change the government's bankers? Why should the Bank of Montreal be the government's bankers for so long? Is it possible that we could get a better deal with another bank? Could the government get a better deal with the Royal Bank of Canada, the Bank of Nova Scotia or the Canadian Bank of Commerce? Why must we continue to do business with the Bank of Montreal? Could we save t.a;:payers' dollars, Mr. Speaker, by changing banks?

Could we save taxpayers' dollars by inviting proposals from other banks? Why are we locked into doing business with the Bank of Montreal? I have never been able to get a sa tis factory answer, Mr. Speaker, to that question, and I am going to put it now to the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins), who I am sure is interested in saving a few dollars for the hard pressed taxpayers of this Province. It is about time, in my opinion, that we took a good, hard look at getting the best deal we can, saving as many taxpayers' dollars as we can, and if that means changing banks, well then, let, us do it.

When was the last time, for instance, the government looked around, talked to the other banks to see if they would give Newfoundland a better deal than the Bank of Montreal? The Bank of Montreal now has had a monopoly on this long enough and I think the Minister of Finance and the government owe it to the people of this Province to explain why. Maybe the Bank of Montreal is the best deal we can get, I do not know, Mr. Speaker, maybe it is, but at least let us find out if we have to continue with the Bank of Montreal or can we get a better deal from another bank? Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is one matter that I wanted raised. The other matter that I wanted to raise, Sir, was we are now well into the construction season in this Province and there are a tremendous numberof construction workers unemployed. We have no announcement worthwhile from the Department of Public Works or from ~~e Department of Municipal Affairs in connection with water and sewerage or the construction of public buildings in this Province 5203

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1983 SD -·1 MR. S, NEARY: and the outlook for the ~nstruction workers, for the tradesmen in this Province is very bleak indeed. And I have talked to an awful lot of construction workers of late who are seriously thinking about qettinq back to the fishery but that is even getting more difficult than in the past, Mr. Speaker. You now need a licence • Why the fishery is getting to the extent now where it is almost like passinq out a brewer's retail licence or a liquor licence. It is very difficult to get a licence.

And so a lot of these construction workers, who were fonner fisherman who went to the vocational schools and to the colleges and upgraded themselves and got a trade, can now not find employment and the outlook for these workers is very bleak indeed. And here we are now, Mr. Speaker, we understand from reports that the government are trying to force the shutdown of the P.ouse of Assembly. We are told from rumours and reports that we are picking up that the government would be very happy if the House of Assembly shut down today or tomorrow or Nednesday - well,at least by Friday of this week.

We have not accomplished anything yet in this session of the House except pass that rag that we spent almost three weeks debating. The government have not seen fit to raise the matter of unemployment in this Province, the cost of living, the cost of electricity, a realistic fishery policy, ~~e price of heating fuel. The government have not seen fit to raise any of the bread and butter issues in this session of the House.

They instead preferred to talk about a flag, a foolish old flag for Newfoundland while our people are faced with the worst problems in their histo~, record unemployment, the highest cost of living in Canada, the second lowest per capita income in the whole nation. And all this government wants to talk about is a foolish old flag. Everybody thi:1ks in this Province, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier's approach to the problems is silly. They think the hon. gentleman has become a silly coot. The government is silly in its approach to everything.

All they want to do is argue and fight and attack;they are governing with a policy of confrontation and doing nothing to resolve the problems that are facing the ordinary people of this Province. 520 L

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1983 SD - 2 MR. S. NEl'.RY: The word is getting ~~rough to the people out there, the voters, who are very discouraged and very disappointed with this government that they are just being plain silly about everything, that they are not doing anything to develop this Province. They can not point to one item that they have accomplished in the last year,or in the last seven or eight years for that matter, since we have had a Tory government in this Province. No harm to say, 'Tory times are hard times', Mr.

Speaker, they can not point to one item that they have accomplished; they have a sad, sorry record indeed. It is pathetic , their record- they have no record, the record does not exist. People think that the Prer.ier is just beina silly about everything MR. J. MORGJIN: MR. S. NEARY: yet. MR. E. ROBERI'S: years ago is not there either. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. S • NEARY : l'. new hospital for Port aux Basques. It is not there The new one promised for Bonavista f!._ ve Mr. Speaker, I hear Tories in droves talking about how disappointed thev are with this government.

They had their hopes built up by the Premier when he campaigned in June of last year. Their hopes and expectations were built higher th~~ by any other Premier in this Province. And what a letdown it has been, ~r. Speaker, what a tremendous letdown. The outlook is dismal for young Newfoundlanders who will be pouring out of the university, the College of Trades, the vocational schools, the high schools, pouring out by the thousands in another couple of weeks a~d no chance at all of finding a job unless they go to Saskatchewan or Alberta. And God only knows, Mr.

Speaker, a lot of Newfoundlanders new are having second thoughts about going to western Canada after that unfortunate accident recently when a large number of young Newfoundlanders were forced out of this Province because they could not find employment in their own Province, they had to leave and go West. It is net good enoughr Mr. Speaker. The government have no record at all, no track record and there is no indication that they are going to do anything except the Premier wants to take a position 5205

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1984 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: paper on everything. He wants to publish a position paper. He wanted a position paper on this, he has got to give Cabot Martin and the crowd of separatist advisers that he has, he has to give them something to do, so they are producing little coloured documents that do not mean a thing. It is all academic. What the people of this Province want is action, and they want it now. They want to know what this government is going to do about the fishery.

The fishery is headed for disaster, in serious trouble, and all we hear is old Chaw-mouth telling us what a grand fellow he is, Mr. Dress Up, not enunciating plans for the fishery, trying to attract attention to himself. And if the Premier does not have his picture taken twenty or thirty times a day and call a news conference when he is driving off from the airport on the spur of the moment, why,he thinks he is out of touch with everything and everybody. He has got to have his picture taken at least twenty or thirty times a day. MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: Raised any funds for your campaign yet? And so, Mr.

Speak~, it is not good enough. The p~ople are very discouraged, very disappointed, and disillusioned with this government and with the Premier especially, who they say is beginning to look silly, who is making Newfoundland the laughing stock of Canada. They are referring to him now as a silly coot.

I would not say that he has gone bananas, but they say he is not behaving like a mature 1 cornmon sense individual, just plain downright silly, doing Newfoundland all kinds of damage in the international and national financial and business world, and with other jurisdictions; attack Nova Scotia, attack the police, attack the teachers, attack everything and everybody in sight, attack the Government of Canada, twist and turn when you want to attack a minister up in Ottawa and the Prime Minister of Canada, and not one single thing being done while that is happening.

My hon. friend referred to diversionary tactics - MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member's time has expired. 5206

June 2, 1980 MR. NEARY: shortly, Mr. Speaker. MR. MORGAN: Tape No. 1984 NM - 2 Well 1 I hope I will get another ten minutes Do I hope you will be (inaudible). Do I ever hope vou will be (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER (Butt ) : The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. RO'ii'E: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) is not in his seat today, I do not know whether he will be or not,but there were a couple of points that I wanted to bring to his attention and hopefully get some - PREMIER PECKFORD : MR. F. ROWE: Communications. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. F.

ROWE: Who? (Inaudible). The Minister of Transportation and No, no, his father died three or four days ago. Oh, I am sorry to hear that, Mr. Speaker. Probably some other han. gentleman could try and answer the question. Mr. Speaker, the Trans-Canada Highway situation is one that disturbs most all of us in the Province at the present time and I refer to three different things and that is th~ situation with regard to these slow lanes on the Trans-Canada Highway.

Now if I can remember correctly, or as I understood it correctly, over the last number of years the slow lane had to be the lane that yielded to the rest of the traffic on the outside,

whereas this year it appears, at least in certain locations where I have driven over the highway, where the fast lane,if you will, the one in the middle, written right at the end of that particular lane is 'yield! So there appears to be a change of rules or regulations as it applies to the Trans-Canada Highway, and I do not know what kind of publicity this has been given, if any; what kind of an educational programme has been given to this 1 if any, because quite frankly I myself, I am confused on the highway now, which lane is supposed to yield, whether it is the slow lane or the fast lane because the instructions on the highways have changed themselves. 5207

June 2, 1980 Tape No . 1984 N!-1 - 3 MR. F. ROWE: Last year, if I can remember correc~ly, ~~ere was a yield sign vertically stuck up oo the side of the road in the slow lane. This year it appears in the fast lane wTitten on the pavement itself, "Yield." MR. BARRY: Which one, lef~ lane or right lane? MR. P. ROWE: 1-.'ell,last year to me it appeared to be on the right lane, the slO\o.' lane, yie~d. Well that is where the sign was, Mr. S~eaker, sticking up on the highway, yield. ~!R. PO!</ER: Only a merge sign, not yield. MR . F. ROWE: Okay, merge or what have you .

And this year it is - if'3ll, look, the obvious confusion in this P.ouse this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, is an indication of the reason why there needs to be some explanation about the Trans -Canada Highway with respect to fast and slow lanes. Now, ~1r. Speaker, there is a second 5208

June 2, 1980, Tape 1985, Page 1 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: point that I want to mention with respect to the highway and it is this, that there is no trouble whatsoever in getting a speeding ticket in this Province on the Trans-Canada Highway, no problem whatsoever. Now, I do not know what the situation is with respect to the minimum speed limit. I understand that there is a minimum speed limit on the Trans-Canada Highway. AN HON. MEMBER: Forty. MR. F.B.ROWE: Well, I would like to hear from the - well, the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) is, unfortunately, away today.

If the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) comes back or the President of the Council (Mr.Marshall), or the Premier wishes to answer the question, I waul~ like to know to what degree the law is being enforced with respect to the minimum speed limit. Because I am afraid that many of the accidents that occur on the Trans-Canada Highway, and potential accidents that occur, are caused by slow drivers on the Trans-Canada Highway and the impatient people trying to pull out,in dangerous situations, to get past them. The third point, still pertaining to the Trans-Canada Highway, Mr.

Speaker, is this business of tractor trailers. Now, it appears to me that we should have some law- if we do not have it, I would like to have it. If we do have some regulations I would like to have them ~xplained - where there should be certain times when these tractor trailers are not allowed on our highways. Because we have situations in this Province where we have the rush hours, people in rural Newfoundland returning back to their small rural communities from the larger, high-density population centres where they are fortunate 5209

June 2, 1980, Tape 1985, Page 2 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: enough to have a job, returning in the evenings or corning into these centres where they have employment in the mornings, where you have great convoys of tractor trailers roaring in or out of town. And I would like to see some sort of a regulation whereby they can travel only at certain times or certainly be stopped from travelling during rush hours. Now, there are probably reasons why they are allowed to travel at any hour of the twenty-four hours of the day, but I would submit, Mr.

Speaker, that there should be certain restrictions, particularly during rush hours,of people travelling in and out from rural to urban centres for purposes of employment, I would suggest that these huge tractor trailers travelling at great speeds at sometimes going down hill and going at a snail's pace trying to get up over a hill, where they should be kept off the highways during these periods of time. MR. R. MOORES: That is right. MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a district question - unfortunately we do not have the minister here.

I do not know whether there is anybody who can answer it, but I will have to go on record as mentioning the problem with respect to roads in the district, and that is this, that the New Harbour Barrens Road, between New Harbour and Victoria, was a high priority last year before the election. Upgrading and paving was promised - MR. R. MOORES: Between New Harbour and Spaniard's Bay. MR. F.B.ROWE: Spaniard's Bay, I am sorry. Right. New Harbour and Spaniard's Bay. And that is, Sir, one of the oldest dirt roads on the Avalon Peninsula. And the people of Trinity South . 5210

June 2, 1980, Tape 1985, Page 3 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: agreed to the concept of the Carbonear Hospital, I believe, when that was built, agreed with the concept of the hospital being put in Carbonear providing that that road was upgraded and paved so the people could go from Trinity South area over to Carbonear. As of this day, Sir, there has been very little if any upgrading, certainly no paving, of that particular stretch of road, the New Harbour Barrens Road, one of the oldest dirt roads on the Avalon Peninsula. They have a miserable $300,000 for upgrading of the Eastern end of that highway this year.

I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that that $300,000 would be better spent on the dirt roads in the various communities such as New Harbour, Greens Harbour, New Chelsea, New Melbourne where you have fish trucks and that sort of thing travelling over these roads daily, the people not being able to open their windows, not being able to put out their wash for drying purposes, they are smothered in dust during the Summer. Fish quality control is out of control because the fish trucks have to travel over these bumpy, dusty, dirty roads. And I would submit, Mr.

Speaker, the government should either start and finish that New Harbour Barrens Road, start it and complete it, or stop fooling around with it with little bits of money one year, little bits of money another year for upgrading and the next year it is all washed away again. I would suggest that that ·r.uut:y- ~'lould be better spent in upgrading and paving the dirt local roads under the iurisdiction of the Department of Transportation and Communications in such communities as New Harbour, Greens Harbour and the other unincorporated communities 5 211

June 2, 1980 MR . F. ROWE: in 1975 in Hant's Harbour. Tape No. 1986 ow - 1 that I have mentioned. Mr. Speaker, we had a spectacle Look,this is a pamphlet, Mr. Speaker, a pamphlet from the PC candidate,who happened to be a Cabinet minister of the day, in 1975 wherein it said, 'Roads committed for this year to paved by September 30th., 1975:' Hant's Harbour, the Cluster's Head Road. A little stretch of road on Cluster's Head in Rant's Harbour promised to be paid during an election campaign in 1975, here is living proof of it, that road is still being washed out to sea. Mr. Speaker.

Very little re-construction and certainly no pavement. MR. J. HODDER: MR. F. ROWE: And a dangerous road with it. Last _year, Mr. Speaker,the people of the district asked for a simple thing, calcium chloride on the roads in Trinity South,in that part of the district of Trinity • Bay de Verde. Not one ounce, not one gram of cal- cium chloride was spread on the dirt roads in that district, Mr. Speaker.

And I would simply ask if there is to be no re-construction and pavement of the roads,the least the minister can do this year is to put some calcium chloride on the dirt roads, the gravel roads in the district of Trinity - Bay de Verde. And, Mr. Speaker, in closing I would hope that - I do not know if there is anybody on the other side who can answer the questions relating to the district in the absence of the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett), but certainly, I would like somebody to reply to the situation with regards to the Trans-Canada Highway. 5212

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1986 D\i - 2 MR. F. ROWE: And, Mr. Speaker, I understand that there has been a death in the family of the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett),! had not realized that when I started and I certainly would like to pass my sympathy along to the minister on behalf of the members of the Opposition at this particular time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER ('B"U"tt): l'he hen. Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to attempt to address all the questions raised by the hon. member but I will address the first one.as it relates to changing policy in the passing lanes. The hon. gentleman is quite correct there has been a change in policy 1 but he is about a year behind. We changed last year .

Whereas previously it was slow traffic keep right, now • it is all traffic keep right except to pass. So the person who has to yield is now the centre lane instead of the right lane,

whereas previously the centre lane travelling through had the right of way and the right lane, the slow traffic,yielded to the faster traffic. But that was changed a year ago. AN HON. MEMBER: No, that is wrong. MR.N. WINDSOR: No. No,it is not wrong,it is quite correct. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. N. WINDSOR: The law is quite clear. The law now states that you keep right except to pass and when you are running out of passing lane then the person passing yields to the person in the right lane. And that is why the yield sign. MR. F. ROWE: And that·is why you have to come to a screaming h~lt to let the slow guys out? 5213

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1986 DW - 3 MR. N. WINDSOR: No, no it is all traffic keep right unless you are passing . a slow lane. It is a passing lane,not MR. F. ROWE: you are out there. MR N. WINDSOR: out there ,exactly. You are normally passing when You are passing when you are If you do not have enough lane left to pass,then you do not haul out there. It is quite simple. MR L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Bank . MR. L. THOMS: particular subject. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Grand Mr.

Speaker, just on that Actually if you are passing when you are out there you should be getting a ticket because where the solid white line begins is not a passing lane. You are not allowed to pass from the beginning of the solid white line. So this gives the right hand traffic the opportunity to merge onto the Trans-Canada. MR. J . MORGAN: MR. L. THOMS: (Inaudible) if that is right. Of course that is right. If the hon. minister would like for both of us now to go and hire a lawyer and get independent legal advice on that, I will only be too happy to pay the cost and any bet you want to make on it. Mr.

Speaker, just to get off the - well,not actually to get off the Trans-Canada,I ~ertainly would like to support the comments made by my colleague for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) in connection with the tractor trailers. There is not only a period of time which they should be eliminated from the road altogethe~ but I think more attention has to be paid to the tractor trailers . There is nothing quite as frightening on the Trans-Canada - and I had this happen to me: if you recall when the fire was out in Gambo and they had a gravelled 5214

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1986 ow - 4 ~!R. L. THOMS: de to ur which was hardly wide enough for two vehicles 1 but I had one of these tractor trai lors actually pass me on a detour. They really do not care for the travelling public in this Province. They just ba rrel at you whichever way they want and they can fright en the living daylights out of you . And I think that the minister should pay more attent!on to it and possibly do something about it. My friend was also talking about district problems and 52 15

June 2, 1980 MR. L. THOMS: the roads prcqrzmme Tape No. 1987 EL - l I have a district problem this year.When was tabled in this House there was not one single solitary cent for my district. Of course, there are all kinds of reasons given for it none of which ,cf cours~ r accept but,then ,maybe election promises, maybe campaign premises are made to be broken. Maybe that is a fact. Maybe that is why the people of this Province are so cynical about politics and politicians. That is why they came to the conclusion that, you knew, any election promise is one that we do not expect to be kept. It is going to be broken.

But campaign pro- mises were made in my district.There were written and verbal commitments made by the previous member, by the candidate, by 'the previous administ­ ration that two things would happen for sure and one is that Grand Bank would get a new bridge. It had a single main bridge there at the time, at this mcment,but Grand Bank was going to get its bridge. No problem. Do not worry about it. It is there. It is approved. It is just a matter of the Budget coming down in 1980 and the money will be there. We received that ccmmit.ent. r received the ccmmitlllE!nt after I got elected, as a matter of fact.

Maybe I am being penalized for voting against the flag. That might be it. That might be just how small the administration of this Province is. That might be the slap across the wrist that I am getting from this administration. I would hate to think that that was the case, Mr. Speaker. r would hate to think that the people of Grand Bank and the people of the shore are getting penalized because I happened to take a particular stand which I thought was right and voted against what was happening in the flag issue in this case. Then.aqain, there is the

section of road between Lord's Cove and Lawn over which the fishermen must take their fish and then the Minister of Fisheries(J ,'10rq~ l talks about the quality of 5216

June 2n9so Tape No. 1987 EL -2 MR. L. THOMS: fish in this Province. You cannot have a good quality of fish and have to truck the fish to the fishplants over dirt roads. And there are only •even or eight miles of dirt road which would complate that particular stretch of road.Again,there were written and verbal promises that this would be done. But it seems like promises of this administration on paper just are not worth the paper they are written on. They do not mean anythinq. They are forgotten - MR. S. NEARY: Water on a duck's back. MR. L. THOMS: - the next day. Completely forgotten.

Maybe,again, maybe the people of Lord's Cove, maybe the people of Lawn, maybe the people of Taylor's Bay,Point au Gaul. and Lamaline - maybe they are being penalized for my voting against the flag. MR. HANClOCX the other. MR. L. THOMS: Or you being a Liberal, one or Well, if you want to bring in the flag the same way as this one was brought in then I would vote against it again. Now as long, of course, as it is the official flag of this Province at the moment, as long as it is, I will respect it just like I would respect any other flag.

But, I would hate to think that this administration was so small, so small that they would penalize the people of the district of Grand Bank for something like this. Mr. Speaker, to get off Transportation and Communications for a minute I would just _ like to ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs (N. Windsor) -maybe the President of Council (W.Marshall) would like to comment on it as well. You will recall when I 5217

June 2, 1980 Tape 1988 EC - 1 MR. L. THOMS : spoke on the new Municipal Act in the House I questioned the logic of extracting directly from the Public Tendering Act a

section that admittedly had a flaw in it - taking it, extracting it out of the Public Tendering Act and putting it into the Municipal Act without making a very slight change~ and I am referring to the extension of contracts by municipal councils where it says that a contract must be extended at the same unit price. All you needed was a very simple amendment where it would say that the contract could be extended at the same or a lesser unit price.

The Minisl:er of Municipal Affairs at the time got up and basically what he said was, 'Well, I agree with you, there is a flaw in the Public Tendering Act that should be changed, but we do not want the Municipal Act to conflict with the Public Tendering Act; therefore, we will put the same flaw in the Municipalities Act.' That was the convoluted logic that I heard at the time. So maybe the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. N. Windsor) or the President of the Council (Mr. w.

Marshall) can tell me what time they expect.that the Public Tendering Act will be reviewed, will be looked at, and a flaw such as this corrected so that we can get an amendment to the Municipalities Act as well at the same time so that councils are not forced to pay a higher unit price if they can get it for a lower unit price. It just does not make sense. Maybe the minister could address himself to that point. l-1R. S • NEARY : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The han. the member for LaPoile. MR. S, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously, the ministers are not going to address themselves to anything.

We have raised some very, very interesting and very important questions concerning the people of this Province. The ministers and the Premier sit there like a crowd of dumb­ bells. They have no intention, obviously, Mr. Speaker, of coming to grips with the real problems facing the ordinary people of this Province. MR. L. THOMS: MR. S , NEARY: MR. L. THOMS : They have the flag debate over now. They have their flag now. They did not speak on that one either. 5218

June 2, 1980 'l'ape 1988 EC - 2 MR. S, NEARY: No, the Premier did not even speak on that. They got their flag so now they can go off and talk about oil. That is all thay want to talk about, oil, as if oil were going to be the salvation of this Province. That is going to create more problems than it is going to do good. Although let me say one thing about the oil, Mr. Speaker. I have to say this. I listen to these academics and these experts day in and day out telling the people of this Province, 'Oh, we are not going to be ready for the oil boom.' •we are not going to be ready for oil,' they say.

We have only been exploring off the coast here since 1968. It was the Liberal administration that brought the oil drilling rigs to Newfoundland and now we are told twelve years later, we are not ready, we are not going to be ready. Well, if we are not going to be ready or we are not ready it is our own fault.

And I hope I hear no more foolish nonsense from that crowd of academics and experts who are saying, 'Oh, we are not going to be ready for oil.' Every time they want to get their names in the news, in the headlines,'Newfoundland is not going to be ready for oil.' We have been twelve years at it now and if we are not going to be ready, if we are not ready, then it is our own fault, our own stupid fault. Mr. Speaker, I was rather intrigued the other da~ following the referendum in Quebec ,about a statement that the Premier made about the Governlllent of Canada.

He thought the federal government should be an agency of the Province, the Premier said. Now, the hon. the Premier, the same man who makes that statement, is up then the next day, and in this House a few days later, presenting a document asking the Government of canada for literally millions piled upon millions of dollars to try to keep Newfoundland afloat. He wants the Government of Canada to pay for all the projects in this Province, to pay all the bills - to write the cheques and pay the bills, but they can only he an agency of the Province. Mr.

Speaker, is it any wonder that the people of this Province think that the hon. gentleman is silly? This is the image that 5219

June 2, 1980, Tape 1989, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: is being left. The hon. gentleman is portraying an image of a silly immature individual who is not capable of grappling with the problems of this Province. Mr. Speaker, we only have a few more minutes in this concurrence debate. The government have managed again this year to get a free ride on their estimates by putting the estimates out in Committees in various and sundry parts of St.John's.

We have only a few more minutes left and there is no evidence, no indication yet, even though the government are rushing to close the House by this weekend, forcing us, forcing the House to close down without presenting any realistic solutions to the problems that are facing the ordinary people of this Province.

And let me repeat what some of those problems are; record unemployment, especially in the construction industry, amongst our tradesmen, tradesmen being forced to go to Saskatchewan and Alberta and other provinces of Canada; no fishery policy, no plans to develop the Lower Churchill; the highest cost of living in Canada; the second lowest per capita income in the nation - AN HON. MEMBER: The highest unemployment rate in Canada. MR. NEARY: No, I said the highest unemployment rate in Canada.

Electricity rates escalating, cost of gasoline and heating fuel going up, vandalism and crime on the increase, and what is it that this crowd want to talk about? They want to talk about a foolish old flag with a big dart in the centre of it. Well, that little dart is going to be like a boomerang - MR. MORGAN: You will get a dart pretty soon. 5220

June 2, 1980, Tape 1989, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: The government are going to get the dart because that little dart is going to be like a boomerang, it is going to come back and give the government the dart in due course. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the last seven or eight years in this Province, especially the last year, have been a dismal, dismal failure. The government have not lifted a finger to try to come to grips with the problems of the ordinary people of this Province, they have been let down.

The people have been conned, they have been had by this administration and the previous administration and there is nothing looming on the horizon to offer any hope to the people of this Province, especially young people who are unemployed and cannot find employment. The Province is slipping badly, Mr. Speaker. They cannot point their fingers at one single item that they have accomplished in the last seven or eight years, especially the last year. The Premier is just acting like a silly coot, as I said a few minutes ago.

People think the hon. gentleman is silly, silly, should not be in control, they want a mature person, a man with common sense, with a firm hand on the tiller at the most difficult time in our history. And they are not getting that leadership and the people are disappointed and discouraged and browned off. MR. CARTER: Now is your chance. MR. NEARY: Now is anybody's chance, Mr. Speaker, anybody's chance.

I will tell you one thing, if the hon. gentleman, there a few weeks ago - a few weeks ago it looked like the hon. gentleman might rush into the House in his silly, foolish way and bring in a resolution and dissolve the House and have a general election over the offshore oil ownership. 5221

June 2, 1980, Tape 1989, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: I will guarantee you now, Mr . Speaker, that is the furthest from the hon. gentleman 's mind . The whole situation in the Province has changed in less than one month, the people now think that the hon. gentlem an is silly in his approach, the way he approaches everything , waving his arms, wild -eyed, fanatical , tugging at his coat, looks like a fellow that is going berserk, somebody who cannot cope with the problems of the ordinary people of this Province. Mr. Speaker, we asked some very important 5222

·~ June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1990 SD - l ~· l-I"'EARY: questions of ministers , • the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe), the member for Grand Bank (~r. L. Thoms) and what did they do? I do not know if we gave them diarrhea or what but they all got up and scatteref. out of the House as fast as they could. ~· R. BAIRD: You get action with action. SOME HON. $MBERS : Oh, oh. MR. S. NEA.'<(Y: That is right.

The voters will give them diarrhea before the next election but they have all had time to go outside, if it is the call of nature that brought them out of the House, but now they should be back in their seats and answer the questions that we have raised, tell us how they are going to deal with the unernploymeftt situation, tell us what plans they have for the fisheries. It is absolutely scandalous, Mr. Speaker, the contempt that this administration has for the peop1 .e, and the arrogance. They used to talk about Joey Smallwood, after twenty-three years, how he became arrogant, how he was a dictator.

Why we have seen that happen to this administration and this Premier in less than one year. I ~~uld be the last one in this Province to compare the hon. gentleman to former Premier Smallwood, I think Mr. Smallwood 1 s litUe finger - MR. L. THOMS: The Tories are doing that. MR. S. NEARY: - nail accomplished more and did more in one month than the Tories have done in eight years. We have had a Tory administration in Newfoundland now for eight years ,even though they want us to forget about the last seven years .

They usually jurnp over that to go back to the Smallwood administration, jump over seven years of corruption, embezzlement, thievery, croo~ey, they want to jump over that and blot it out as if it never happened in Newfoundland 1 s history. They are ashanvad to admit that seven years of Tory administration and I guarantee you after another two or three years, when we have a new leader, he will be ashamed to associate himself or identify himself with this adminis~ration. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, they have no plans, they want to shut the House down as fast as they can.

They figure as long as they keep the House open they are getting themselves in more hot water. The Government House Leader (Mr. W. Marshall) and the 5223

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1990 SD - 2 MR. S. NEARY: Premier are forcing a shutdown of the House. We should stay here all Sum;ner and try to ·.·rrestle with the problems t.'lat are facing the ordinary people of this Province and come up with solutions to these problems instead of being forced to debate foolish things like that monstrosity we passed in the House there a week or so ago,that rag they call a flag. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEl'KER (Butt) : The bon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member was complaining a few moments ago that members of this sice of the House do not answer but the fact of the matter is there have been four S!)eeches on the other side, it usually takes about four speeches to come up with enough substance to answer anything in about half the time allotted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I will answer a few matters, albeit, I know it will not be satisfactory to some of the hon. gentlemen there opposite but I shall attempt.to answer,particularly some matters raised by the bon. member for Trinity -Bay de Verde (~r. F.

Rowe) and the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms). The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde indicates that there seems to be a perfusion of slow drivers on the highway and what are we doing about it. MR. L. THOMS: There is a minimum speed limit. MR. W. MARSHALL: I know there is a minimum speed limit.

The fact of the matter is that this regulation and that law is being enforced equally with the others and we have not had any amount of undue complaints about this but if they are a matter of undue complaints and the hon. gentleman can demonstrate that to us, we would be perfectly happy to pass that on to the appropriate enforcing authorities for the purpose of seeing that if,in fact, the rule is not being followed, it is followed.

He mentioned tractor transport and this is a matter the member for Grand Bank mentioned and the members, you know, from time to time have mentioned should there not be some restrictions ' on the tractor trailer traffic in the Province on certain specific days, 5224

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1990 SD - 3 MR. W. MARSHALL : I believe it has been suggested that perhaps on Sundays and holidays and other periods of time as they do in other areas apparently. Our main situation, ~rr. Speaker, here, the main specific situation that we have before us here, is that we have only one real transportation link in this Province 5225

June 2,1980 Tape No. 1991 AH-1 MR. MARSHALL: and this is the highway. If the hon. gentleman had read the discussion paper which was filed the other day on major bilateral issues he would have seen certain answers to his questions in it. One of the major facts we have, we have a Trans-Canada Highway that·is not up to standard, that should be up to standard. Hopefully it will be up to standard in the years to come. We have a railway system, Mr.

Speaker, that has been downgraded regrettably since the days of Confederation. we have seen the passenger service taken away from us and we have seen very regrettably a downgrading of the freight service and we believe that one of the ways and one of the policies to alleviate the problems on the highway is to build up the alternate mode of transportation and that is the railway through the CNR.

And as the hon. gentleman there opposite knows. this is a matter of concern for the federal government, a responsibility for the federal government, it is a matter that they undertook in the terms of union to look after but instead of looking after it,unfortunately we find ourselves as one of the few provinces in the Canadian Confeder~tion that gave a railway and saw the railway services being downgraded by ~he federal presence,whereas other provinces joined Confederation for the purpose of getting a railway. So that is my answer to the hon. gentleman.

We realize the pressures of tractor trailers on the road and we realize the inadequacy of the links but at the same time,we also realize that some of this has been caused to a great degree, as I sa~ by the downgrading of the railway and by the fact that we have such a large area to provide with roads, a large mileage or kilometers, whatever one will,and we require federal assistance for that purpose.

So if the han. gentleman wants to help us to this end he could, I suggest, contact his friends in ottawa and help us as we make our representations from a governmental point of view, he could certainly Make his representations from a political point of view. I understand there is only one minute left, Mr. Speaker, and this is in the concurrence debates.On the Public Tendering Act mentioned by the bon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms), I 'dll say 5226

June 2,1980 Tape No. 1991 AH-2 MR. MARSHALL: that any changes in the Public Tendering Act will be made, or in any act with respect to tendering, will only be made with a view to strengthening the act itself. He indicates that this would be the - the proposal that he makes would be a measure to strengthen it and so it may be but we will be considering this when we finally get the report of the commission that was struck by the previous administration for the purpose of inquiring into these matters and we will take them all at once and we will consider them at the same time.

However, I am bound to point out,and perhaps I should not bring up a tender matter such as this, that what he calls strengthening the act, the proposal that he makes for strengthening the act - and members on the opposition have joined in agreement in this, is the very thing for which they condemn the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) when he made a certain decision, made in good faith at a particular period of time, to do a certain act, to award at less than a unit price.

They condemned him roundly for it and at the same time they come in and say we should bring in an amendment because it is the beneficial thing to do. So it really seems to be speaking out of both sides of one's mouth. Mr. Speaker, as I say,there is only a short period of time. There are other questions that were raised. A lot of these , I think, have been answered in Question Period, they have been answered in the committees themselves but this , I believe, is the end of the concurrence debates and I hope I have touched the main gist of questions that have been asked by the other side.

It suffice it to indicate that it took them forty minutes to ask and it took me four minutes to answer. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): order, please! The time has expired. The motion is that this House concurs with the report of the Government Services Estimates Committee. Those in favour 'Aye' contrary 'Nay' carried. 5227

June 2,1980 Tape No . 1991 AB-3 MR . SPE.l\KER (Simms) : The adjourned debate on the Budget. Before recognizing the hon. member :or Grand Bank (~1r. Thoms) I would like to welcome to the galleries today the Vice -President of the Newfoundland and Labrador federation of Labour accompanied by Mr . Grimes and MJ: . Dan Biscocl<, both from the great and llistoric district of Grand Falls. SOME HON . ME."UUERS : !-l.!L SPEAKE!~: MR. THO.'lS : Bear, hear! The hen . member for Grand Sank. Thank you very much , Mr. Speaker.

I did not anticipate speaking in the Budget debate this afternoon a.nd I do :lOt seem to have a copy of t.he Budget with me. However , be that as it may I think I have since t.l-)e House 5228

June 2, 1980 Tape 1992 MR. L. THOMS: opened, Mr. Speaker, on a number of occasions now I have stated emphatically that we have not accomplished by way of worthwhile legislation in this House very much over that period of time. EC - 1 My hon. friend from LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) says that we are trying to get the House closed on Tuesday or Nednesday or Friday. Of course, for what we are accomplishing, for what meaningful legislation is going through this hon.

House, we may well have closed last Friday, let alone this Friday or Monday or Tuesday, whatever the case might be, This afternoon, of course, I got conclusive proof that we are getting very little in the way of legislation from this administration when the Page laid on my desk in the House Bill No. 60 which is "An Act To Amend The Attachment Of Wages Act". I opened it up, Mr. Speaker, and lo and behold, it is blank. There is nothing there, proof positive that this is a 'do nothing' administration. They have done a lot of negative thinqs, however.

We have seen this Province - thank you very much - this one does have something on it. We have seen this Province, Mr. Speaker, since June 18th become something that concerns me, and I think, concerns a lot of people in this Province. And I am concerned about the direction that this Province is taking. I am concerned that we seem to be unalterably opposed to everything that the federal government, whether it was the P.C. Government from May 22nd to February 18th or whether it was the national Liberal Government prior to May 22nd, 1979 or whether it is the Liberal administration since February 18th, 1980.

We seem to be at war on everv side. We saw a situation where the Premier of this Province was at war with the then Prime Minister,Joe Clark. We saw the embarrassing situation of'Mr. Peckford'making an announcement on the front steps of Confederation Building and then we saw Mr. Clark immediately contradicting'Mr. Peckford~ the Premier of this Province. That was an embarrassing situation.

It was embarrassing to me as a Liberal member of this House, as a citizen of this Province, as I am sure it must have been to hon. members on the other side of the House and Progressive Conservatives throughout this Province. 5229

June 2, 1980 Tape 1992 EC - 2 MR. L. THOMS: That particular situation has not gotten better since February 18th. And the Premier of this Province has no intentions of letting it get better. We have seen the situation in this House where members on this side of the House have had their loyal.ty to this Province questioned. We were not being good Newfoundlanders and we are not good Newfoundlanders because we are not toeing the Preuder's line or this administration's line on the question of offshore oil and gas.

We have seen a situation where the Premier has stood up in this House and called on members of the Opposition, members of this party to support him in his position on offshore oil and gas. It has been pointed out to this administration that in 1975,on a resolution that was passed unanimously in this House, that both sides of the House agreed that ownership of offshore oil and gas would be in the hands of Newfoundland. So wllat is the arg\m~Emt from that 5230

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1993 EL - 1 MR. L. THOMS: point of view ? What is the argument? There is none. But we have seen a deliberate atte~pt by this administration to paint the Liberal Party of this Province as the black sheep. Now, I say to the Premier of this Province and I say to hon. members on the other side Ol the House, if you want the Liberal Party of this Province to form the government and to govern, then call an election or abdicate or do something. Resign. Resign and as I said before - AN HON. MEMBER: (inaudible) one year. MR. L.

THOMS:: And as I said before, I can assure you I can assure you - I think one year the people of Canada had their opportunity. They had a Tory administration in Canada from May 22 to Febraary 18th but on February 18, they had their opportunity to turf that Tory administration out of office and they did so. Now, I think it would be only human kindftass, human kindness if the Premier of this Province gave the people of this Province the opportunity to turf this administration out. But do not sit - do not sit on the other side of this House and ask us to govern. We are not the government.

As I said before, I can assure you that you put me in the same position as the Shah of Mount Scio, as the Minister of Mines and Energy (L.Barry), you put me in the - MR. BARRETT: You change your mind too often. MR. L. THOMS: I do not change my mind as often as Joe Clark changed his mind, I will remind the hon. member for St.John's West (H. Barrett). DR. COLLINS: Did you change your mind on the flag? MR. L. THOMS: No, I did not change my mind on the flag, Mr. Minister of Finance (J.Collins), no.

What I changed my mind on was the dictoratorial attitude that was being displayed by this administration in ramming that particular design down the throats of the people of this Province. That is what made me change my mind. 5231

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1993 EL - 2 MR. L. THOMS: What made me change my mind on the flag, Mr. Speaker, was when the Government House Leader, speaking on behalf of the government, refused to permit a member of the canadian Legion to appear before the Bar of this House, when the hen. the President of the Council (W.Marshall) and the rest of this administration reduced the Canadian Legion in this Province to a status nothing more than the Rod and Gun Club, that is what I objected to -.

I objected to the members of the Flag Committee putting the condition that this design would be acceptable to the people of this Province and then saying to hell with our own condition. That is what I objected to. That is what I objected to and that is what my friend from Eagle River (E.Hiscock) objected to. If we are not going to pay any attention - if we had no intentions of paying any attention to public opinion, why did we make this condition? Why did we make this condition? MR. J. DINN: Then why did you make the recommendation? MR. L. THOMS: There was nothing - the recommendation is fine.

I mean, it made no difference what the design was like, it was only when the design was shown to the people of this Province that the people of this Province could make any sort of a rational decision on whether or not it was acceptable. Every piece of evidence that I have, every piece of evidence that I had, indicated that it was not acceptable. MR. WARREN: Right on. MR. L. THOMS: Now, maybe it will grow on the hon. member for Bally Haly, maybe it will - MR. WARREN: (L.Barry) - MR. THOMS: Even the Minister of Mines and Energy Maybe jt will grown on that hoD.member, Mr. Speaker, and I hope it does.

I hope it does. I figured I would get him on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. 5232

June 2, 1980 MR. J. DINN: MR. SPEAKER(Baird) : of Labour and Manpower. MR. NEARY: SOME BON. MEMBEl'IS : MR. J. DINN: Tape No. 1993 EL - 3 On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon.the Minister On the nineteenth hole, too. Oh, Qh! Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite, number one, if he is going to adress anybody in this House - MR. THOMS: MR. J.

DINN: You were not in the House - - he has to address the~ by the district that they represent and n~er two, just because the hon. member cannot make a decision himself, you know, there is no reason why he should attack personally other hon. members in this House. MR. WARREN: Tough titty, TOugh titty. MR. NEARY: That is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would suggest that the hon. gentleman take a few minutes and go read the rules of the House. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: Thank you very much, Mr.Spealcer.

Maybe I will include the dineteenth hole the next time. That will make him happy. MR. S • NEARY : The water hole. MR. L. THOMS: So anyway, Mr.Spealcer, I got sidetracked there for a ~ment on the Christopher Pratt design for a new flag for 5233

June 2, 1980, Tape 1994, Page 1 -- apb MR. THOMS: this Province, a little bit of digression . But anyway, as I said earlier, we now have a new flag. I will honour the new flag and I will respect the new flag and, I guess, there will be an occasion or two when I will be embarrassed by the new flag, but I will certainly honour and respect it, MR. NEARY: it is the official flag of this Province. MR. THOMS: But it can be repealed. Oh, it can be. Of course! But we will know by the time the next election rolls around whether or not it has grown on the people of this Province.

But my main concern was the arrogance of the Premier of this Province and the arrogance of th.e administration of this Province, that they would come in and ram this thing through the House of Assembly. You know, Mr. Speaker, total arrogance. For example, we received this position paper on Thursday or Friday of last week. Now, the new flag had to be printed on this prior to the flag becoming the official flag of this Province. It is just another example of the arrogance shown by the present Premier of this Provir..ce, complete arrogance. Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying before I did digress to the flag, was forced into digressing to the flag, we have a situation in this Province today \.;here the provincial government is at war with Ottawa. MR. NEARY: With everybody. AN HON. MEMBER: All t.'le provinces are. MR. THOMS: I will get on to the rest of them, give me a chance. I want to talk about Ottawa first. As I said, and I see the Minister of Mines and Energy coming in, if I were in his position I "'ould have an agreement with Ottawa on the offshore oil and gas. I would have it. 5234

June 2, 1980, Tape 1994, Page 2 -- apb MR. BARRY: Sure you would. It would be all gone, given away. You would give it away. MR. THOMS: I would have it. And it would not be gone. MR. BARRY: You would give it away tomorrow. MR. THOMS: We would have 100 per cent of the offshore oil and gas. MR. BARRY: One hundred per cent of what? MR. THOMS: But, Mr. Speaker, I have never referred to the Prime Minister of this country as a fraud. I have never referred to him as something lower than somebody else. MR. BARRY: Who did? When? MR. THOMS: So, Mr. Speaker, you know, I could go to the Prime Minister - MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, or a point of privilege or whatever it is. MR. SPEAKER(Baird): a point of privilege? MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: Is it a point of order or Is the han. member saying - Order, please! - that I have accused the Prime Minister of Canada of being a fraud? MR. HANCOCK: He did not say that, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, that is a queer implication and I would like the han. member to qualify it so I can take the appropriate action if that is what he is saying. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order.

I would submit, Your Honour, that the han. gentleman is a little bit confused because he raised a point of order and then got up and asked my han. friend 5235

June 2, l980, Tape l994, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: a question. It should have been a point of information and not a point of order. There is no point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (_Baird) : To the point of order. I did not hear any point of order. MR. BARRY: To a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of privilege. The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has insinuated by his words that I have accused the Prime Minister of Canada of being a fraud. I have accused him of being other things but never that, Mr.

Speaker, and I would like for the hon. member to acknowledge that that is the case. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of privilege, To the point of privilege. The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I really have aboslutely no idea whether the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) at any time in his political career or otherwise, has ever referred to the Prime Minister of Canada as a fraud. I have no idea. His question to me was was I referring to the hon. minister. No, I try not to refer to the hon. minister at any time. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of privilege.

There is no point of privilege, the hon.minister took the opportunity to question remarks attributed to him. The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Yes, Mr. Speaker. As I was saying, the Premier of this 5236

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1995 DW - 1 MR. L. THOMS: Province is on radio now and in the media as saying, 'They are holding up the DREE agreements, we cannot get any money under the DREE agree- ments and it is for political reasons'. AN HON. MEMBER: Are you in favour of that? MR. L. THOI4S: No, I am not saying I am in favour of that. But what I am saying is I could sym- pathize with the federal position - AN HON. MEMBER: You are condoning them. MR. L. THOMS: Would the minister please let me finish? I could sympathize. I am sure that we will get our agreements under DREE, I am sure we will get them.

Not like my own case, Mr. Speaker, where I was probably cut off without a cent under the roads programme because I hurt the feelings of the Premier of this Province and voted again~t the flag. The Prime Minister of Canada is not as small as the Premier of this Province~ He is just . not as small! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. L. THOMS: And we will get our money. But like I say, I would not blame him. Here we are on the one case saying what a rotten deal we are going to get out of Ottawa on every turn and the next minute we are up asking for millions and millions of dollars.

The Premier of this Province says that Ottawa should be nothing more than a mere agency, that Ottawa should be no more than an agent of the Province. And then the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) !ets up and says, 'We can develop the Lower Churchill but we are going to need money from Ottawa. we are going to need money from Ottawa'. Now, Mr. Speaker, is that not the heights of hypocrisy? On the one hand we are saying Ottawa should be nothing, they should he stripped of·all their powers and the next 5237

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1995 DW - 2 MR. L. THOMS: thing we are going asking them for millions and millions of dollars. MR. HOLLETT: It is like robbing your banker and then asking ~him for a loan. MR. L. THOMS: That is right. It is like robbing your banker and then asking him for a loan. So, Mr. Speaker, that is one area of conflict that we have in the Province today, is the situation between Newfoundland and Ottawa. I •make no apologies to anybody in this Province for my being a Newfoundlander. I make no apolgies to anybody. MR. HANCOCK: You do not have to. MR. L.

THOMS: And I say again to the Govern- ment of this Province, if they want a fair and reasonable, and that is all Newfoundlanders want, deal with Ottawa on offshore oil and gas , then abdicate and turn it over to the Liberal Party,we will form a government we will get a deal that is fair and reasonable. We will do it! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. L. TH~MS: But, Mr. Speaker, that would not fit into the incipient , separatist-plans of the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) and a few more on the other side of the House. They do not want Newfoundland to be a part of Canada, they do not want it.

They are saying to themselves, 'We have got oil and gas now worth billions and billions and billions of dollars 1 we do not want to share it wit~ anybody, we will take the Province out of Confederation'. If the vote, Mr. Speaker, the vote on May 20th. had been reversed,as I am sure some hon. members on the other side would have wished it to be be, there are some hon. members who would have been very, very happy because then they would have had their issue. It is going to be much more difficult, Mr. Speaker, for the Premier of this Province and the two or three Tory blue people 5238

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1995 DW - 3 NR. L. THOMS : who he has a.round him, to haul this Province out of Confederation today than if the 'No' forces had not won on May 20th. Let my friend from For- tune - Hermitage (Mr. Stewart) look at me. I do not think you really understand or know or appreciate what you have associated yourself with. You should have really stayed with the Liberal Party. I think you are going to regret, I think you are going to regret ~~D. STEWART: (inaudible). ~!R . G. lvi\RREN : MR. S. NEARY: I will never be a Liberal He w i ll be ba ck.

You still have your Liberal card in your wallet, you and 'Haig Young'. MR. G. WARREN: Come on down. MR . L. THOMS : Now, Mr. Speaker, as I say, I have no problems with the offshore oil and gas issue, none whatsoever. And I am not qoing to be panicked into a situatien by the Premie~ of this Province or the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) telling me what a lousy Newfoundlander I am. MR. WARREN: (inaudible) are you? MR. BARRY: House is closing. MR. L. THOMS: You are not coming to the No, we do not have time, the No, the House does not have to close, Mr. Speaker.

We can keep it going to Bastille Day if that is what you want. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh·,. oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order , pl e a s e! 5239

June 2, 1980 Tape 1996 EC - l MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, there is another area of confrontation that we see ourselves in, and that is with Nova Scotia at the present time. We are at war with Ottawa and then,again, we are at war with Nova Scotia over the Northern cod issue, simply because the Nova Scotians fish about 15 per cent of what is the so-called Northern cod stock.

But I attended a fisheries conference in Salt Pond, Burin, and I realized at that time - and I will admit that I did not realize it before - that we now have the South Coast fishermen, you know, I guess the Northeast Coast fishermen - because here you have the Premier on one hand saying that if we do not have access to 100 per cent of the Northern cod then we have 500 communities that are going to disappear off the face of Newfoundland. What a lot of tommyrot, Mr. Speaker, absolute tommyrot.

The people of Newfoundland, as I understand it, fish about BS per cent of the Northern cod stock in any event, so what are we arguing over? We are arguing over 15 per cent. There was a lady at that conference who stood up and she read off a list of names, Stewarts, Murphys, Powers, Slaneys, Brakes, all Newfoundland names, and she said, 'These are all Newfoundlanders who have moved to Nova Scotia and are fishing out of Nova Scotia.

Then you get Eric Miller from Fortune who stands up and says, 'What happens?' He said, 'If we deny Nova Scotian$to take 15 per cent of the Northern cod stock 1 what happens to my brother fishing on the Scotia Shelf? Doe~ Nova Scotia turn around and say, 'No Newfoundlanders are going to fish off the Scotia Shelf'? I mean, what happens if we become so provincial and we turn completely inward? What happens to the thousands and thousands of Newfoundlanders who are out in Alberta? What happens to the thousands and thousands of Newfoundlanders who are in Toronto or Nova Scotia or Boston?

You know, I heard the ridiculous suggestion from the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn) during the Estimates Committee- he said, 'We are going to eliminate - just get this, Mr. Speaker, he actually said this - 'We are going to eliminate unemployment in Newfoundland.' This is the first thing the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower is going to do. He is going to eliminate unemployment in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. That is fine. Whatever the hon. minister can do to eliminate unemployment in Newfoundland, I am all for it, Mr. Speaker. But then he went on to say 5240

June 2, 1980 Tape 1996 EC - 2 MR. L. THOMS: that with the oil and gas offshore, he is going to eli~inate the unemployment in Newfoundland and then he is going to take a grand tour of Canada and the Unitad States and he is going to knock on every Newfoundlander's door in Halifax, in Toronto, in Alberta, in Vancouver, in Boston, in New York and Palm Desert, California, and he will probably take a trip over to the Carribbean and see if there are any Newfoundlanders hanging around over there, and, Mr. Speaker, he is going to invite them all to come back to Newfoundland.

He is going to invite them all back to Newfoundland then. MR. S. NEARY: For what? And then ask the Government of Canada, the agency of ~~e Province, to give them social assistance. MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, did you ever hear of a more ridiculous situation than that? And, Mr. Speaker, these are the people who are governing this Province today. No wonder they want to abdicate and ask the Liberal Party to form a government - no wonder they should abdicate and ask the Liberal Party to form a government. But to make a suggestion as foolish and as ridiculous as the one made by the Minister of Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn)!

I certainly hope, Mr. Speaker, that after the Minister of Manpower brings back all those thousands upon thousands upon thousands of Newfoundlanders, that he will at least have the decency to write to these towns and communities and thank them for having the Newfoundlanders there for so long. Of course 1 Mr. Speaker, he may also get a surprise. He may find that there are some Newfoundlanders who do not want to come back, who would not come back and live under a Tory administration, and that would be an excellent reason. MR. S. NEARY: Tory times are hard times. MR. L. THOMS: so, Mr.

Speaker, we do have a conflict with Ottawa. We have a conflict with Nova Scotia. we have a confl~r.~ between the Newfoundlanders versus Newfoundlanders over the Northern cod issue. We have a running battle, albeit in lots of respects, valid, between Newfoundland and Quebec. And now 1 Mr. Speaker, in the city of St. John's today we have a conflict with our Royal Newfoundland Constabulary 5241 •

.JW1e 2, 1980 Tape 1996 .EC - 3 M.R. ;. • T"rlOMS : whe·re we have seen a stubborn - probably tl.e worst handled situation this Province bas ever seen. MR. S. NEAR'i: Tile minister should resign . MR. L. THOMS: T"nere is no que stion ab_out that, the minister should resign. As a matter of fact, the Premier of this Prov.ince should ask ior his resignation. ;te has bu.ngled it right from the start . Right from the start he got on his 52 42 ··.: ''· ....

June 2, 198C Tape No. 1997 so - 1 ~R. L. THOHS: high horse and he saic, "I aro not going to speak to the Brotherhood of Police, who do they think they are, Mr. Speaker, they are not going to tell the government of this Province what to do or how to act, no siree, not while I am Mr. Justice or not,• he says·. Well, how puerilP. - MR. BARRETT: MR. L. THOMS: MR. S. NEARY: MR. L. THOMS : you can not hear him. MR. S. NEARY: When did he say that? He has been saying it aJ 1 w'O!ek Thursday and Friday 1 the whole week. Your problem is you sit next to him and You were not here.

You were out looking after Crosbie's interests wh~n he said that. MR. I.. THOMS: SOME HON. MEMBEP::': MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. L. THOMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, we have - Oh, oh. Order, please! - a problem, we have a walkout and we have the city of St. John's policed by the RCMP today simply because the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer) decided that there was nobody, he had to be obstinate about it, purely and simply obstinate - the problem can be resolved before six o'clock, before this House adjourns, the police problem can be solved ~~d without removing Mr. Coady I might add. SOME HON. MEHBERS: How? MR. L.

THOMS: All we need is a Minister of Justice who is not on his high horse, who is not obstinate, you know, who will get the interested parties together. All he has to do is sit down with the Police Chief, sit down with the President of the Brotherhood and himself and it can be worked out. There is nothing that can - the problem is the Minister of Justice will not talk to anybody unless it is to his law partner who sits next to him there. I doubt very much whether he would confide in the Minister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins). eertainly if he wants sensible advice he would not because he is not going to get it from the Minister of Finance. But that is all he has to do, Mr. Speaker, that is all he has got to do and this problem would 5243

.Tune 2, lS'SO Ta pe No. 1997 so - 2 MP •• _ L~ THOMS: be resolve.d. liN HO~MEMBER: Do a flip flop. MR. L. THOMS: Look, it is the Tories who are so good at flip-flopping. Do you want me to list the flip-flops the Tories have done? Why do you think Joe Clark was turffed out? SOME HON. ME!1EE RS : MR. L. TliOMS: MR. S. NEARY: MR. L. THOMS: MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: (Baird) his time is up. MR. L. THOMS : Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: MR. S. NEJ..RY: MR. L. THOMS: thirty. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. OINN: SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. J. DINN: Oh, oh.

Because he did so many - He had no chin. flip flops. I will flip flop again tomorrow. He should have grown a beard. Order, please! I wish to remind the member Already; What, thirty minutes gone already, The hen. member's time is up. (Inaudible) eleven. I could not get leave to carry on for another Oh, oh. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear. I would like to make a few comments on the Budget debate, I have not to this point in time and needless to say, we all need to. I will be a few minutes.

Needless to say, I think it is important, having listened to the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms) expound g~at Liberal theories,that somebody on this side of the House get up and say a few words about the positive aspects that have been happening in this Province over the past year and indeed over the past few years. The hon. member indeed quoted me correctly in saying that it was my aim to eliminate unemployment in Newfoundland. SOME HON. ME!o!BERS: Hear, hear. MR. J. DINN: And there should be no greater aim than that. 5244

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1997 so - 3 MR. J. DI!>I"N: Surely the hen. member for Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms) agrees with his former, former, former, former leader, the hen. J.R., Mr. Speaker. Eure that is what is his main claim to fame was jobs, johs, jobs. The only difference, Mr. Sp~aker, is that we are not going to create jobs by burning boats. l\N HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. J. DINN: Now, there are some jobs in that;one needs a match and some other small implements and one can get out and bum boa~s and 1 I suppose,you could employ one or two people in Newfoundland and eventually get all the boats burnt.

And that could be, I suppose, a job creation programme funded by the federal government and we would be back in shape again. Now, the hen. member criticized the government for some of the legislation we brought in and I can understand the hen. member, he would not want to be in government and have an Environmental Assessment !let.

He wonld not want environ.'llental assessMent sure, gooc heavens anything that was done in Newfoundland before 1971, it was done without any environmental assessment• The t~per Churchill was done and ERCO was done ;md the iron ore mines in ~lest ern Labrador, that was all done albeit it is costing us dollars now is just to find out what these various things are costing the Province. It is costing us millions to study, to get some control, to make sure that some of these companies clean up their act. That is what is happening, half of the time the 5245

June 2~1980 Tape No. 1998 EL - 1 MR. J. DINN: Ministry of the Environment is out policing and making sure that these people clean up their act. Now, he would not want environmental assesment in this Province. Sure, there would be absolutely no need for an arts council in this Province. The hon. member does not want arts in this Province. If you are unemployed after you burn all the boats, obviously everybody is going to be unemployed because fishery is the mainstay in this Province. MR. BARRETT: Unaudible) MR. J. DINN: After all the boats are burned you certainly will not need an arts council.

You will not need an arts council. You will not need a new flag. Certainly you do not need that. My God, we have been subservient for 400 years,. we would not want to fly anything that would be distinctively Newfoundland, We should cower under somebody elses flag. That should be our situation. We do not want a higher minimum wage in the Province. You should not have that. My God, we should go ~ck to 1961 for $1.20 an hour. MR. BARRETT: The good old days. Good Liberal times. MR. DINN: $1.20. We should go back to the $1.20 an hour. MR. STAGG: Six cents a day. MR.

DINN: Six cents a day is what the hon. member would have us go back to. That is .all Ottawa would give us. 500,000 if you devide the budget we are getting from Ottawa now/ over 500,000 souls 570,000 souls, you would get the six cents an hour again 1 we would be back to that. So the hon. member would not want any increases in lliainimum wage. Surely he would not fight for that. Be would •it in his corner and let it all happen. 5246

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1998 EL - 2 MR. BARRETT: He does not want Workers' Compensation for fishermen either. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I kind of skipped over the flag awfully quick but it was the hen. member for Grand Bank (L. Thoms) who was a member of the Select Committee that went out to choose a new design for a flag, decided on which design we should have came in and presented it to the House and then claimed that we were trying to push the design down his throat. ~OME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. 1 MR. J. DINJil: Mr. Speaker, have you ever heard such nonsense in all your life?

This has been the topic of debate ever since the flag has been passed. The hon. member for Grand Bank, one of the senior members on the Select Committee who went around this Province and listened to all the briefs,qot the Select Committee ~o ask one of the top Newfoundland designers to design a flag, brought it into the House and then when he saw a little bit of pressure coming from various areas in the Province he said, 'I do not want anybody to push that flag down my throat'. It was his flag. It was his design.

He was on that Select Comm­ ittee, and he did not want it pushed down his throat.So with that kind of logic, Mr. Speaker, it makes no wonder that there is nobody going to get up and laud the hon. member for Grand Bank. The biggest contribution he has made was the fact that he had been screaming for select committees. We put him on a select committee, he made a decision, brought it into the House and when he saw a little bit of pressure he said "Nobody is going to push that down my throat~ Well, Mr. Speaker, we have notintentions of pushing anything down the hen. members throa11.

PREMIER PECKFORD: He cannot even get it down his oWP rhrnat. MR. DINN: Now, Mr. Speaker, we do not need Occupational Health and Safety . AN HON. MEMBER: Where would you suggest? MR. DINN: sure I suppose-the hen. member could stick it wherever he deemed it necessary ~ AN HON. MEMBER: !lear, hear! MR. J. DINN: We do not want occupational health 5247

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1998 EL - 3 MR. J. DINN: and safety in this Province we should not have that. We should let the people - Here is an hon. member who represents a district in which St. Lawrence is and he does not think it is important that we have occupation.U he.Uth and safety legislation in this Province. Well, Mr. Speaker, did you ever hear anything as ridiculous in all your life as that, -s silly and as foolish? In this Province, you do not need occupation.U health and safety. MR. BARRETT: MR. J. DINN: MR. BARRETT: MR. J. DINN: Say no. Get up and say no.

Well,that is silly legislation Oh, yes. -that the government is bringing in amendments to that, that is silly. We should have more mines developed. When any company comes in and knocks on the door, when John C. comes in and knocks on the door and he says' I want to start a min~'. Well sure, .Ul we got to do is say 'yes boy, do whatever you want they are only Newfoundlanders~ We should not fight for occupational health and safety legislation, we should .Ulow them to be poisoned. Mr. Speaker, there is nobody on this side of the House calling any ho•. members opposite traitors, sure that would be 5248

June 2, 1980 Tape No. 1999 GH-1 MR. DINN: unparliamentary and Your Honour would call us to order for that, But what we are saying is that some things are important. We do not need Workers' Compensation for fishermen. Well, sure, that was a silly piece of legislation. We have done nothing since we came in here. You know, Occupational Health and Safety and Workers' Compensation for fishermen, well, how silly and ridiculous is that for a government to bring in. Well, sure let them go out in their burnt boats and drown. What odds! They are only fishermen. What about the children and the wives that are left home?

Give them nothing. MR. BARRETT: They do not need it in Grand Bank. MR. DINN: They do not need any of this foolishness like Workers' Compensation for fishermen. That is a foolish and a silly piece of legislation for government to bring in. The hon. member for Grand Bank gets up in this House without thinking, I arn sure, I mean, he is not thinking. Certainly there is no hon. member who could stand in this House of Assembly and say what the hon. member for Grand Bank said and claim that he thought about what.he said.

He did not sit down and think it out and rationalize and say that this piece of legislation, that amendment to the Workers' Compensation Act was silly and foolish and we did nothing in here. It only covers 23,000 fishermen in this Province and ~~eir families. Well, what a foolish piece of legislation for a government to bring in, ~~e likes of which was never heard of before, that a government should bring in legislation to protect our fishermen. Sure, why would we need to protect our fishermen? If we burnt all the boats, we would not have any fishermen .

I can understand his logic and there is a certain amount of logic in it. You burn your boats, you do not have any fishermen, so you do not need Workers' Compensation for fishermen. DR. COLLINS: You burn your boats because you do not have any fish, you give away the fish first. MR. DINN: Now, Mr. Speaker, so you do not burn your boats. We have a government here now that says do not burn boats, build boats. 52lg

. ' C"1.•ne 2, 1980 Tape No. 1999 GH-2 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hearl MR. DINN: We have a government that says if you have fishermen in those newly built boats that they should have Workers' Compensation so that if anything happens to them their wives and families are protected, a foolish thing to have but, I mean, that is the way this government believes. Now, Mr. Speaker, now that you have your boat built and now that you can go out and fish, sure it is foolish for a government to think that the fish off our coast should be there for our fishermen. What a silly and foolish government to think that!

We should give that away. Now we gave it away to the foreigners. Nobody squawked about that. It took Walter Carter and a few people in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, to circulate a petition and wake up 'Romeo' and the boys, to wake him up so that we got a 200-mile limit MR. STAGG: And do not forget the unanimous resolution of this House. MR. DINN: - and a unanimous resolution of this House. Now,why should we protect the Northern cod stock or demand that that Northern cod stock be for Newfoundland fishermen?

What a silly, foolish thing to ask Ottawa to think aboutl We had a person in the university on the weekend at the convocation, he said that Alberta made it because they had the oil resource and that it has brought their economy to such a point that, if the oil were gone now, their economy would be so diversified that they could still be one of the leaders in Canada. Well, is it not foolish for this government to want ownership and control of our oil and gas?

Well, what a foolish government that we have here in this Province today to want ownership and control of our natural resources so that maybe one of these days we could be well-off. MR. BARRETT: We would rather have the handout tomorrow. MR. DINN: Well, I think that is foolish and silly and greedy - 5250

·:'" ~ June 2, 1980 M..ll. . BARRETT: ~!R . DL'IIN : Tape No . .1999 GH-3 Equalization payments are much- better . Oh , yes, equalization payments, these are the things that we should be wo~king towards. ~!R. .BARP.ETT: Ce rtain! y. Also the social prosrams . ~!R . DINN: Oh, yes, the soci .al programs, let us get all of those. Let us not get anybody .up working and proud of their heritage. There is nothing in Arts Councils , Occupational Health and Safety, Environmenta .l Assessment , new flag, higher minimum wages. We do not need to protect our inshore fishermen. l·!e do not want the offshore oil and gas .

That is the policy of hon. members opposite, because if we get that we will be able to call our own shots . MR . STAGG: A bunch of flag wavers. 5251

June 2, 1980 Tape 2000 EC - l MR. J. DINN: They are not a bunch of flag wavers on the Opposition side. If it were left to them they would not have a flag to wave, Mr. Speaker. Now , to hon. members opposite we want to make it quite clear about what the position of this government is. Number one is we believe that we own and we should control offshore oil and gas and the resources under the sea to t