Manitoba Hansard — 19 March 1968 (Sitting 13, 28th Legislature, 2nd Session)

28-2-13

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Tuesday, March 19, 1968 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. 317 MR. OOERN: Mr.

Speaker, as I listened to the comments on the Speech from the Throne from some of the va:rious members, I was particularly puzzled by the remarks of the Member for Roblin, who apparently referred to the Leader of the New Democratic Party as having moved so far west that he simply didn't recognize him any more, and when asked to explain I didn't receive any a11swer, and I really pondered this because I could make no such observa tion myself in reference to my leader, but I could only conclude that there is such a thing as· a theory of relativity and that your observation depends on the position of the observer, and it is really the Cons,ervative Party, in my opinion, that has moved far right, consequently the Member for Roblin looks upon us as having moved when it is his party, indeed, that has moved and ours has stayed philosophically in approximately the same position.

I think there's no question that this is true, that the new administration is obviously of the right; that, when you look at the title of the party, the Progressive Conservatives, that the Progressives are out and the Conservatives are in. One could also notice that the Honourable Member for Virden might demonstrate some of the first signs of a rift developing within the party when he called for a halt to expenditures in education and criticized some of the errors in curriculum and so on. I'm sure he and the Minister of Education would have some interesting discussions.

After the convention, when we saw the choice of a new leader, the sound that came out most clearly after the hoopla had died down, was I think the sound of braking, the screeching of brakes, and it's going to require a great deal of drumming on the part of my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce to beat louder than the screeching of these new brakes. I thought that ][ would just briefly run over some of the first acts of the administration prior to coming t.o this House.

The Premier was only in office a few days when he was called upon to attend the Confederation of Tomorrow Conference in Toronto last November, and I was one of the fortunate ones who was also in attendance. Of course at that conference the administration was really only days old and had almost a zero impact on the proceedings, but what I wanted to know was this: Where were the skilled advisors? Where was the prepared material that should have been in the hands of the Premier and the people who represented him?

And I wonder,. too, whether the Member for Wolseley, with his extensive knowledge on the subject, assisted the Premier in these important national deliberations, because I saw very little evidence of this. Then we saw the Housing Conference which came shortly after this, and I think this was a general fiasco, particularly on the part of the Liberal Government in Ottawa because they apparently did lllot do the right preparation for it; that the people who went to it felt it was of very little value.

And I was quite taken aback by the comments of our own Premier and his views on public housing which he referred to as being "usually quite unacceptable in Manitoba, especially in th1e rural areas." Well, Mr. Speaker, I really don't know whether the Premier is correctly reading the opinions of the people of Manitoba. I really am rather taken aback to think that anybody is against public housing. I really don't feel that one can be a rugged individualist, as the Premier has indicated. This is the reason, apparently, why Manitobans are against public housing.

How can one be a rugged individualist when you're faced with nine percent and higher mortgages, no vacancy signs, apartments for families at $100. 00 - $150. 00 a. month? I mentioned this to a friend of mine who said that he felt that maybe the solution was to sort of build your own house, or,as a gopher, dig your own burrow, and perhaps this mi1�ht be a symbol of the new administration. The third area where we saw the new administration in action was at the Federal Provincial Constittutional Conference, and it was here that I expected the Manitoba delegation to have some impact.

The Premier said in November, when he was just new in office, just leaving for the Confederation of Tomorrow Conference, he was quoted as saying:"I'll play it by ear and go there to listen." And he said, "The visit will also give me an opportunity to meet the provincial Premiers." Well, I think that was a reasonable statement in November, but I think by the Fe:deral-Provincial Constitutional Conference, Manitoba should have been ready. As I said before, it's not the Premier himself; it's also his entire administration which goes in there representing the province. And I think Manitoba in that Conference did

318 March 19, 1968 (MR. OOERN cont'd) •.• very poorly again. There were 10 Premiers present and you can scan the press clippings, you could watch the observations on television, as I did for several days, listen to the radio reports; and our impact there was, I think , the least of any province. In fact, Peter Newman, who is a fairly distinguished columnist, said that in fact, that the Premier of Manitoba had no effect at that particular conference.

And I note that the Premier, in his comments on the Speech from the Throne, said that he would take a particular interest in some of these national deliberations and I hope that he will play a larger and a more effective role in the future. I also hope that he will give some consideration to calling a sort of public forum, perhaps having public hearings in Manitoba, a proposal which I've made in a Private Member's bill, which will give the citizens of Manitoba, the various ethnic groups, an opportunity to come to the Legislature and express their opinions.

It'll also give us a chance to have a dialogue with them and I think it'll be an educational process which is very beneficial to the entire province, because I don't think that enough people are concerned about some of these national issues. I think more Manitobans should pay attention to them. We had a number of rumours which flew around the province shortly before the session was called.

In fact, some of us were beginning to wonder whether we actually would get into session, and after a very long delay it was sort of suggested that we would have a short session, and I think there is a real attempt on the part of the government to make this a short session by bringing in very, very little legislation. Perhaps it's an indication of their prog rams for the future - do nothing or do very little. I think this is going to be a very big mistake on their part. We also heard talk of an early election. Some people wondered whether the government might call a snap election.

I think this is the most unlikely prospect of all since the govern ment has practically nothing to gain and certainly everything to lose. Mr. Speaker, I wanted to deal briefly with some of the problems, or let's say some of the areas. in which the government has shown a lack of awareness, or some areas where the government has not been responsive to the needs of the province.

I think first and foremost, if we look at one of the larger ones, we can take the area of urban needs and urban problems, questions of urban transportation; housing, and in particular public housing, which the administration apparently doesn't like; day care �entres, which we were told by some backbenchers last year were not needed. Second, I think one of the most regrettable lack of action on the part of the government is the Vaughan Street Detention Home. We've heard promises for I don't know how many years in this province that they would do something about it.

They admit, as everyone does, that the conditions are horrible. They were called bestial by some observers of the United Church and were told this was rather strong language, but the churches have called for action; the staff has called for action; the public has demanded action; and the government continues to talk . They now tell us they are going to fix it up. They now tell us they're going to move some of the administration from Vaughan Street out to Fort Osborne and they're going to look around for some plans.

We also obviously need a second facility in addition to a new detention centre, for children who are sometimes kept just for a few days by Children's Aid, etc. These are child ren who have nothing to do with crime, are not suspect of crime, but are simply in need of shelter and they are put into this kind of an environment. I have an

article here somewhere which indicates that not too long ago an eleven-year-<:>ld boy who was a ward of the Children's Aid Society was sexually molested in these quarters; just kept there for a short time and this is what befell him. I was rather surprised, too, that the Minister of Health, who is one of the more enlight ened members of the Cabinet, seemed to indicate practically no recognition of the fact that there was a drug problem in the province; seemed to indicate that, well, you could go to the Public Health nurse or talk to your doctor, and so on. The papers are full of announcements of arrests.

The radio stations are full of indications of a drug problem in the city schools and at the University. Arrests are being made, narcotics arrests. Narcotics are being brought in over the border. I think there's a need for some educational publicity, which the Minister of Education is starting at least, but I think there's probably need for a medical centre, some sort of team or group in one of the hospitals, who would specialize in the treatment of narcotics, and in particular educational materials and advice for people who seek it.

March 19, 1968 319 (MR. DOERN cont'd) •.. And then in particular -- as I said, the fourth point that bothers me in particular is: are we going to have an impact on the national scene? And I think that in our first two sallies into the national debate, I think we've struck out. So we're going to have more than a third and fourth attempt; there'U be many attempts in the next few years. I think this government needs a special committee to advise it. I just wonder how often and how long in advance they call upon their special advisers before going to these conferences.

It's not good enough to collect a few people a week before, to pull a few professors out of the university. I think there has to be a special advisory committee that the Premier can deal with, and I think we also need a Special Standing Committee of the House to communicate with the people of our province. Mr. Speaker, I wanted to deal briefly with some suggestions that I had, perhaps a more positive part of my remarks, on Manitoba's Centennial. Unfortunately we haven't heard too much of future plans.

Maybe we're still sort of recovering from last year, but, it's a couple of years away and I think the time to begin preparations is now. I think that it is during this year that we may and, in the sense of I hope, the government will, and I, in my opinion, think we should, finally recognize Louis Riel. I can imagine that for a whole year on every soap box in Manitoba people will to a great extent extoll the virtues of Manitoba's in effect founder or father.

I think the name of Riel will be repeated a thousand or a million times over in Centennial celebrations, and this great figure from Mani1X>ba history has had all kinds of honours in the past year. We know that the City of St. Boniface has given recognition 1X> his name by naming its new collegiate after him, and a street, etc., etc.

In the past year, Time Magazine in October reported that during Centennial year Louis Riel was celebrated in a play, a movie and an opera, and if one keeps up with these reviews I think the opera and the play in particular were giivEm very high marks indeed and may become Canadian classics. So I would hope that the Ministier, the First Minister, and his leading advisors will finally give this overdue recognition.. If they don't do it in fact, it is being done in fact. The schools them selves bear testimo111y to this by their teaching of Manitoba history.

I would like to see a great expansion of libraries and swimming pools in the province. I think these are two areas where we could use some expansion. The one point I would like to make in particular regarding our 1970 Centennial is that I hope that we bring in the Common wealth Games. I would like to congratulate the First Minister on his efforts in bringing in the 1970 World Hockey Tournament, and I'd also like to congratulate the Honourable Member for Hamiota who undoubtedly did some work in that regard. --(Interjection)-- Some stick handling, right.

I think this i1s a great thing for the province, and we all know that the Pan American Games were quite a success. I think if you look at the Commonwealth Games - and I think the earliest we could acquire them would be 19 74 - we have the physical facilities to hold these games. We have a llarge corps of trained people. We have, I think, a growing number of citizens who took an interest in all sorts of new sports and activities, and there is a great international value.

Each time a record is shattered, each time an announcement is made, the name of Winnipeg would be flashed around the world, or the Province of Manitoba's name. We undoubtedly benefitted materially from the tourist dollar and so on. If you look at the Commonwealth Games, this is one of the greatest cross sections of world peoples assembled for athletic endeavours. Australia would come, New Zealand, Great Britain, India, Fuji, and so on. There is no language problem because English is either a first or a second language in these 111ations. Mr.

Speaker, in closing I'd just like to make a few more general observations on some of the speeches. ][ listened the other day to the Minister of Industry and Commerce and his comments; at first I thought I was listening to a few pages from Emile Zola's book ••• but I found out that this was not so as he went on. I think that his comments were perhaps a bit too strong as he may feel some of our comments are a bit too strong. But I encourage him in particular to continue this program of beating the drum, of forward, onward, upward - and downward. I don't know about that.

But I think that if the Minister of Industry and Commerce thinks that the Opposition is his real enemy, I think he's mistaken. I think that the enemy is within. I think that the enemy who may retard progress in Manitoba or cuts expenditures is alll around him; it's in the backbenches, in the Cabinet and so on. I think that if the Minister wants to keep beating his drum he could do it for the benefit of his own Party because I think they are the people who in particular need to be brought in1X> line and need to

320 . March 19, 1968 (MR. DOERN cont'd) •.• be shown the way to march. Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to deal with one comment of the First Minister on Medicare. I have an

article from February 16th where the same view is expressed by Maurice Arpin, Q. C. , who apparently advises the First Minister on constitutional matters, and at that time I was quite intrigued by some of the logic behind the belief that Medicare is in fact unconsti tutional and that Manitoba should get back its money, and I would like to just quote briefly from this article. At this time the Premier is quoted as saying "I question Ottawa's constitu tional right to charge us for Medicare. So do I," said Mr. Arpin. And then it says, going on "he - I suppose this is Mr. Arpin since the

article is largely about him - "indicated that testing this right might be a difficult matter. That Ottawa will not be financing its share of the program by a direct charge against Provincial Government. Well it has not been made clear how the machinery will be setup to collect from Canadians, it is taken for granted that participating provinces will receive financial assistance from Ottawa's general revenue. If this is so Mr. Arpin believes there is nothing to stop any Manitoban from withholding that portion of his income tax which will be going to help pay for Medicare. " And at the conclusion of the.

article he said - he made it clear that no province can test the law; that it is not the province that is being taxed but the individual taxpayer he said. Mr. Speaker, there's a number of unrelated events and I've finally been able to put them together. Gerald Hart was arrested a few weeks ago and was taken to, I think , Head ingley Jail to serve his term, and only a week or so ago he was brought up to Vaughan Street and at that time I wondered why he was being brought down town. And now I see it. Mr.

Hart is obviously going to be brought in by the Provincial Government and he's going to put the test case for Manitoba. In fact, I suspect that he may replace the Minister of Health, because any man who can get 15 to 20 million dollars out of the Federal Government c1eserves a cabinet portfolio. So, I think that Mr. Hart is obviously the trojan horse so to. speak or the person who will go inside the trojan horse to save Manitoba on behalf of the government. --(Interjec tion)--And going to run in Wolseley - right. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Industry and Commerce pointed out that he had a dream or nightmare in which he saw the Leader of the New Democratic Party and other people. I suggest that he will undoubtedly have another nightmare or another dream very soon. I visualize him tossing and turning one night with the following picture in his mind: the First Minister kicking the tractor wheels and the Minister of Industry and Commerce pulling him away and trying to put him into a jet plane.

If the First Minister does keep up these activities of going around the province and kicking these tractor wheels the Minister of Industry and Commerce should then approach an American firm for a tire factory because I think there'll be a great need for tires in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I look forward to this session and I especially look forward to the next election. Let the government state its case and we will state ours. The people will ultimately decide. Of the result, I have no doubt. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I join with the others in welcoming you back to your high position. In fact I think as a referee possibly you should have a couple of linesmen the same as they do in hockey, because with all the stick handling, elbowing and cross checking we have around here, I think you probably could do with a couple of aides. Particularly when you think hockey games have 12 players and here you have to deal with 55 some odd people. I know you can take care of yourself. You have no worries as far as I am concerned but I'm sure with these other 55 ruffians they must keep you awake at nights.

I would like to also congratulate the Premier of this province. I certainly have a lot of confidence in him as do our backbenchers and I'm sure that under his guidance the good people of Manitoba will enjoy a good living for many many years to come and history will record that certainly the wisdom of his guidance will be good for all. I'm sorry the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources isn't here. Under my guidance last year we got this rookie off to a good start and I'm pleased that the First Minister took my advice and gave him this portfolio.

I can suggest to you that I'm not backward in taking the credit for the good things this man does but the Executive Council in their wisdom took him out of my realm of influence and put him into the second benches so they'll have to take the knocks for the bloomers that he pulls from now on. --(Interjection)--

March 19, 1968 321 (MR. BEARD cont'd) ••. The new Minister of Highways --I'm just not sure what you mean by that but by golly I dlon't want to lose this acting Minister. He's the man that's shown us the most action for many years. They call him the go go Minister and boy if he goes north that's where we're lookinig for him. I think if it comes to a toss up, Mr.

First Minister, that you'll find that northern Manitobans will be looking for the Honourable Harry Enns as the new Minister of Highways and I'm sure with the Member from Arthur and the Member from Morris and few others, you can replace agriculture as far as we're concerned. --(Interjection)- Every man for himself. I'm very pleased to see the Sergeant-at-Arms back with us. I thought maybe when he left us so suddenly last spring that the call of the motherland may keep him over there but I'm glad to see him back.

He brought back with him a couple of large sized page boys which should help to keep this House under surveillance. I'd also like to congratulate the old and new member I suppose - Turtle Mountain and congratulate the Leader of the Official Opposition. He must have done his homework good, a little better than we did perhaps and we'll be looking forward to having this man back. I believe in northern Manitoba though, Mr.

Speaker, that before we get into some of the things that I have prepared I would be expected I suppose to make a couple of comments on this now famoms letter that came out from the Federal Government in respect to Indian health programs. I can be darn sure that that letter was not sent out by a politiciml. After reading it that mmst have been straight from the bureaucrats because anybody that expected to go back to the people of a constituency and be elected after a letter like that could only expect nightmares. I feel sorry for the Minister that has to take the guff for that type of letter.

But in carrying through my thinking, I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that rather than deal alone wi.th the medical problems of the Treaty people I think that Canadians as a whole must look to a responsibility in respect to Metis people also. Because the time when these treaties were signed there was not so much differenca. there were not so many Metis people.

But today with the growing numbers and the growing costs and the growing obligations then I think that Ca:rrndians as a whole must accept responsibilities for the Metis people as well as the Treaty when you CWU1ider that Manitoba has, if I'm not wrong� over 25 percent of the Indian�ietis people in Canada. I'm going to follow my notes fairly closely, Mr. Speaker, because at least I feel that the things that I will have to say about northern Manitoba, if not important to the rest of the House, is important to me and I would like to put them on the record as I see them.

I must first of all say that as far as the Throne Speech is concerned I felt it had a northern flavor to it and I congratulate the Lieutenant-Governor on this. I feel that this has given many of us a lot of hope for not only the immediate future but for the many years to come.

And I think in considering the Centennial we must remember that for many Canadians our Centennial year repiresents a degree of progress equal to any the world has ever known, while for others whci have not shared in this progress future programs must hold a hope for equal opportunities to gain their fair share of our high standard of living. I sincerely trust that we as Legislators have become more conscious of our heritage and our obligations to those who are being left behind.

I suggest that if we are in the age of a social revolution our minorities will have to recognize their responsibilities and their obligations. Certainly, if it is to be considered every Canadian1s right to expect government assistance then it also must be every Canadian's responsibility to take advantage of those opportunities which are made available to them to assist in eliminating the need for welfare. Perhaps our Centennial year will be best remembered for initiating Canadian's reassessment of community and area differences and the programs that will adjust these differences both federally and provincially.

Mr. Speaker, what better place is there to assess these areas of inequality than in our Houses of Parliament. We as Legislators owe those who must follow us a sincere effort to correct these inequalities and help people adjust to the future rather than to suddenly refuse to acknowledge them as has been the case so often in the past. If we are to accept this responsibility within our own country we must stop for a moment in our haste to demand parity with all the bElst that the other areas of this world has to offer.

Rather than promoting bigger and better programs for the more progressive established areas of our country we should be considering programs for the less fortunate Canadians in undeveloped areas to assist them to catch up with parts of Canada that enjoy the best of freedoms and privileges of our modern western world. Recognition of language rights while important to many groups, mean nothing unlee;s this is accompanied by equal economic opportunities and social

322 March 19, 1968 (MR. BEARD cont'd) •.• recognition. Certainly it must be recognized that pockets of undevel oped areas create deserts of wasted human resources whether it be in the urban, rural or northern areas of this province or this country. As Manitobans we should pause to assess our own position and consolidate before we develop new priorities. Up to now we have been going our separate ways and in doing so have endangered our unity by separating rural, urban and northern development.

We have rushed into programs and policies of development at southern and western parts of our province while withholding similar programs and similar opportunities for central and northern portions of Manitoba. We need look no further than our own backyard for rank examples of discrimination and injustice. The northern communities were not included in many programs in the past because of the distance and cost to equalize these services. We profess to be sympathetic but throughout the many years we have never got around to extend equal services to residents of all parts of this province.

While we're speeding across Canada in the jet age, northern Manitoba communities in many respects are still considered in the York boat era by many Manitobans. ls it fair, Mr. Speaker, to establish a consolidated fund for monies collected throughout the whole of the province while at the same time establishing government service policies which do not offer equal modern amenities to all parts of the province from where the money is collected.

These policies have left many northern communities in about the same state they were at the beginning of the first Centennial year, in spite of the fact that they have continually grown and expanded and have been taxable directly and indirectly throughout their lifetime. Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, has too small a population to afford the luxury of progress in only selected urban areas. This type of policy will defeat us in the end by overtaxing the more progressive parts of the province beyond its capacity to pay. Provincial development programs must include northern and central areas of this province.

Manitobans collectively must be prepared to shoulder the responsibility of sharing those services with northern Manitobans which the rest of the province have enjoyed for so many years. Certainly there are those who will suggest that this type of policy would not be fair in that it would mean that urban areas would subsidize rural and northern parts of the province. How often do we hear that northerners are greedy and expect too much and in too much of a hurry? But can anyone dispute the fact that the growth and prosperity of urban areas of Manitoba depend upon the development of the rest of the province.

Neither govern ment or industry can afford to stand still today. Rising costs demand that we expand and develop if governments expect to balance their budgets. If the urban area growth accelerates at the expense of rural Manitoba we can only expect an added financial burden at the urban level. Today, Mr. Speaker, there is concern over the competition in Manitoba's communities for the industrial development dollar.

While this competition can be healthy to a point, I feel that our first concern should be towards co-<>rdinating Manitoba's industrial expansion to complement our Manitoba natural resources and raw materials. It only follows that it is obviously important to develop our Manitoba resources to not only take care of the demands of industry but to provide jobs to take care of the effects of the priority this government has placed on the education of its youth and retraining of others. We cannot afford the luxury of exporting our human resource.

Generally speaking, we are reaching the potential that can be expected from our Manitoba agricultural industry. Our southern resources are being extended to their limits and it cannot keep up with the future economic requirements of this province. Manitobans must turn to the development in northern Manitoba if they are to keep abreast of the fiscal demand of both the present and the fu1ure. Manitobans must be prepared to invest their dollars and show their faith in central and northern Manitoba programs if they hope to take advantage of the province's foremost revenue bearing resource industries.

They must also be prepared to sell their confidence in Manitoba's future to the shareholders and directors of private enterprise and financial investment companies throughout the world. This cannot be accomplished if we insist on preaching doom and gloom for personal and. party political expediency. Unless we as Manitobans create an air of optimism how can we expect others to take a second look at Manitoba for either investment purposes or as a future home.

Industry and Commerce along with many Manitobans are beating the drum for 1970, while it appears that Manitobans are being beaten over the head by the same drum by many of the Opposition Party.

March 19, 1968 323 (MR. BEARD cont'd) ••• The development of central and northern Manitoba is not a welfare program. It is a program which will. produce immediate financial returns for all Manitobans while also saving wasted welfare dollars. Good programming will overcome local community unemploy ment and stimulate in tegration. The future of Manitobas northern resource industry depends upon the confidence of Manitobans, private enterprise and organized labour.

It is obvious to many that Manitobans must be prepared to accept with confidence the fact that much of their economic future lie:s in the resource development in northern Manitoba. Competition for the Canadian and foreign investment dollar requires the wholehearted support and salesmanship of every Manitoban.. Preparation for this enormous expansion requires government leader ship, immense invEistment of public funds and a show of confidence to all Manitobans.

At this time I again express my personal feeling that our first approach to this develop ment program mus1t be the recognition for the need of a strong, financial, independent Department of Northern Affairs, separate and apart from the administration of Municipal and Urban Development. The north has a long road to travel before it catches up with other areas of the province and this cannot be done without imagination and awareness of the prob lems within the central and northern parts of the province. Certainly it cannot be done under present programming for the more sophisticated areas of this province.

While the Department of Municipal Affa:irs and Urban Development is important to the future programming of south ern and western Manitoba and the Department of Agriculture is important to rural southern Manitoba, the north. must have a fresh appro-ach to keep up with their local conditions. The very fact that north,ern communities have been left out of municipal and provincial programm ing in the past only points out the need for a new department equal to face the exceptional problems of three-quarters of this province. Surely, Mr •. Speaker, you must be aware of the many problems in northern Manitoba.

Our community development programming is falling further behind as each year passes. Under the present philosophy of our community development programming we have no indication of any improvement in northern communities. So many of my constituents feel that the money that has been spent in the past has produced little or any economic or social improvement. To the people of the north it appears that the role of the community develop ment officer is to si.t and wait for someone in the community to come up with an idea and it almost looks as if they're attempting to rediscover the wheel.

He will then become a King · Solomon who will direct the community as to how to approach government industry, etcetera for assistance. On the other hand, the Indian who has learned to expect technical advice and assistance sits and waits for the leadership of the government official and today it appears that we've got a thinkers' conference going on in northern Manitoba on a year-round basis. What we require is good individual community leadership, not an all-encompassing theory dreamed up by the' Winnipeg base administration level.

In predominantly white communities government recognizes these problems and appoints an administrator to provide leadership. Government sponsored programs in other areas promote leadership. Why can't we under a federal-provincial program provide this type of theory in northern isolated communities. Past experience and money has taught us what not to do in the north. To catch up with the present day standards we require the same type of imaginative approach used to develop the west 100 years ago.

Nothing can be withheld in respect to the development of our north because of the fea:r of setting a precedent for other communities already established in the rest of the province. Surely, Mr. Speaker, the development of 75 percent of our province requires an independent Department of Northern Affairs, free of old established rules and regulations; a strong Department of Northern Affairs made of people knowledgeable of conditions and familiar with the area to more effectively win local support and deal with the local conditions.

We cannot administrate the affairs of northern Manitoba from many Winnipeg administration offices. The north is an area of many changing faces. When names and communities only represent a dot on the map to many of the senior people in government, service cannot be effectively introduced, if you are not familiar with the area and the feelings of the local people. Once again a: strong Department of Northern Affairs with a proper budget as other departments are giv1m can effectively deal with the projects that involve federal northern appropriations of an ever changing nature.

There is a need for a continuing program of collective bargaining: which is not possible under the present financial arrangement. We have

324 March 19, 1968 (MR. BEARD cont'd) •.. highly developed communities alongside of communities that in spite of the steady increase in population have fall en behind even the horse and buggy days. Today these small communities represent growing demands on our welfare programs, rather con tributing their valuable human resource which the north requires so desperately. Northern and central parts of Manitoba have program upon program of assistance.

Many overlap, many fail to fill the gap while the others are grossly unfair in allowing one agency of one level of government to offer assistance in one form of relief etcetera to part of the community while other families suff ering from the same conditions cannot be assisted. Jn far 1Do many cases one must compare northern programming to the fairy-tale mother who had so many children she didn't know what to do. I know only too well that many will be of the opinion the Member for Churchill is out to build a northern empire, Mr. Speaker, but I ask you, what better place to build an empire.

I'm speaking of an area representing three-quarters of the province. It could be a productive area providing millions of dollars of revenue, while at the same time developing a useful human resource. Certainly there will be those who will say this is a useless waste of money and duplication of present services. All I can say to this, Mr. Speaker, is that these people are not familiar with northern Manitoba, nor of the needs of northern Manitoba.

I would suggest that they should talk to industry, to the people who do business in the north, to federal authorities who have interests in the north and fin ally to those who have to co-ordinate govern ment services in the north. Each department has money used for northern programming. Rather than have Northern Affairs going around knocking on government doors, why not allocate those ones directly to the department which deals exclusively with northern Manitoba. There is a reasonable amount being used for northern Manitoba development.

All that we require is to have it directed to a central department such as Northern Affairs to avoid costly duplication and in effect increase the services to get the maximum mileage out of the tax dollar. It is apparent that our present day philosophical approach to welfar_e calls for a change in policy. Jn fact the very name of welfare is not considered acceptable in today's approach to community assistance. We have many programs of federal, provincial and municipal nature that are designed to look over the needs of many.

It is apparent that they overlap and far too often rather than being of assistance to people they only encourage more demands for handouts. We have programs but not the direction necessary to get the most value out of the tax dollar. Jn spite of the programs such as community development, upgrading courses, vocational training, manpower, pay-while-you-learn programs, on-the-job training programs, renewable resource programs, fur and fishing schools, guide training and many others, we still find pockets of 100 percent unemployment in many northern communities and reservations.

Community development officers on the provincial and federal level along with the company of young Canadians have had the use of many millions of dollars for programming which has not endeared them to the community or to the people who pay their taxes. On the other hand, in northern and central Manitoba we have had the Commissioner of Northern Affairs' approach to programming which has been accepted by all communities throughout the north. Their philosophy has been accepted by both the Indian, Metia and white communi ties.

Their programs of community leadership and down-to-earth programming have brought about results of a continuing nature rather than just a handout encouraging more and more trips back to the big pot. Their approach has been one of action rather than one of "you will have to wait a few years to see the results of our work'', or responsible people using their offices to instigate irresponsible social revolutions and upheaval. To date Northern Affairs approach to an age-old problem has won public support without an independent budget other than the administration and transportation.

These programs have been financed through time wasted by officials touring the many departments of government begging for assistance. Northern Affairs have been able to come up with tangible, proven, acceptable community leadership programs involving the people of the community. People are not just statistics or theory in their type of programming. Their people are not oriented with close restrictive guide lines.

Since Northern Affairs are in contact with a very large majority of Manitoba Indian-Metia communities, we might even hope that the Federal Government at some future date will produce a formula which will provide equal assistance to Treaty and Metia people as a collective responsibility of the federal treasury supervised and carried out by a provincial Northern Affairs Department which has won the confidence of the Federal

March lS, 1968 325 (MR. BEARD cont'd) •.• Government. Northern community improvement can be brought about through careful investment of federal-provincial dollars, in northern Manitoba programs along with the introduction of modern amenities: of a lasting and growing nature. This type of assistance is in fact an investment of our human resource; providing local pay for work programs during off season periods will help el.Jlminate the ever growing need for welfare handouts which are fast becom ing a way of life; in fact it is discouraging peoples incentives.

Northern Affairs programs have been shared in many cases by federal government through winter works' incentive. They have shown si1?;D.s of encouraging self confidence and dignity to the community rather than encourliging people to look for financial assistance as a Canadian right. These programs are not promoted to take advantage of the people but rather to encourage them; does not advocate withholdin1� assistance from those who need direct assistance.

These programs are directed towards encouraging the rehabilitation of people along with the social develop ment and the preparation for integration with the more advanced communities of the north. These sugges1ions appear to be accessible to the taxpayer in central and northern Manitoba where the resources can and do provide more than enough revenue to support an independent Department of Northern Affairs. Once again, this is an area that suff ers from lack of co-ordinated! government services and has proven that it can be developed by imagina tive, progressive and productive leadership.

In closing I would like to again summarize some of the points I would suggest should be considered. We require experts in northern development located in northern Manitoba. We cannot expect to develop our north under the present Municipal Affairs policies for southern Manitoba. Northern Manit oba requires dynamic, imaginative policies and leadership.

Northern Manitoba requires programs of community and human development as an alternative to inadequate and escalating welfare and ration handouts; a development policy for Port Churchill and surrounding communities assuring long overdue modern services beginning with sewer and water; income tax incentives to northern labour and small businesses similar to the incentives ciff1sred to industries; a formula providing every Canadian a right to public assistance along with the same assurance that it will be every Canadian's obligation to accept their own personal responsibilities.

Manitoba should recognize the need for invest ment of developmenit dollars in the form of government services in central and northern Manitoba if they expect to balance future provincial budgets. Future provincial industrial investors should be encouraged to develop industries that will complement our natural resources and our industrial development must keep up with our priority on education if we expect to harvest the economic return on our investment in education. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. • . . • . continued on next page

326 March 19, 1968 MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I am going to dispense with most of the congratulat ions that have been customary during the time of this debate and will simply say, "me too" as far as the various congratulations and felicitations that have been extended, with two ex ceptions, Mr. Speaker. I do want to pay my special respects to the Honourable the First Minister and the other one that I wish to mention - I'm sorry that he's not in his seat at the time -- is the Honourable the immediate Past First Minister.

I have been watching and wait ing and hoping that I could catch the two honourable gentlemen in their seats at the same time, but in the few times that both of them have been here at the same time, someone else managed to get the floor rather than I. So I will have to take the Honourable the First Minister him self and I will have less to say about the Honourable the forme r First Minister than I would if he were present, but I do wish to say a word or two about him too. First and foremost, Mr. Speaker, I certainly congratulate the Honourable the First Minister and I wish him well. I mean that quite sincerely.

I mean I wish him well while he's there but I do not wish him al ong tenure. That is less his fault than some of the people with whom he associates, but he has to take some responsibility for them and so I shall in my usually effective way be doing what I can to facilitate his departure, but while he is there, I certainly do wish him well. And I do want to mention the fact, Mr.

Speaker - it may be not of great importance to a lot of the members of the House but to the Honourable the First Minister and me it's a matter of some importance - I think this is one of the things that rather points up the fact that even though Manitoba is almost a hundred years old, yet in all that time of its history and having had - I th ink it's fifteen First Ministers - in all that time there have been only four who were born in the Province of Manitoba - only four, approximately a quarter - and that rather shows that in spite of being nearly a hundred years old we 're still rather a young province.

We haven't been supplying, in general, our First Ministers to this province v.i. th native born people until fairly recently. It's a fact that the four who were born in Manitoba have been rather widely distributed until recently too, because the first Manitoba-born Premier was elected to that position in the year 1878 and it was 61 years approximately from that time be fore there was another Manitoba-born Premier. I leave you to guess who he was.

I think I should put it on the record, to emulate the example of my honourable friend from Churchill, it's worth putting on the record I think that of the four Manitoba-born Prem iers three of them came from High Bluff - three of them came from High Bluff - and if the runner-up for the position in the latest contest for leadership of the Party opposite had been successful, one of High Bluff's suburbs would still have had the honour. -- (Interjection) - Yes, well the other suburb is some eighty miles further west.

I think this is worthy of comment and I think maybe it's a lesson to some people, that it shows that in this country of ours that people who come from a community, though a pioneer community was never one that enjoyed any exceptional advantages but just the ordinary advantages that were available to the people of Manitoba, can - in the system that we operate under here - can, with a little bit of good luck, some good management, and attending to business, can achieve the position of First Minister in this province. Three of them from High Bluff.

I should like to say on behalf of the fourth of those Manitoba-born Premiers who is not in his seat at the moment -- I don't mean fourth in the chronological order- but having men tioned three of them as coming from one district, I mention him as the Manitoba-born Prem ier who did not come from that district. I don't think we have probably in the debate up to date paid sufficient notice to my honourable friend the former First Minister. I suppose I have a fellow feeling for him now because he also belongs to the ranks af the former First Ministers or former Premiers and I can sympathize a bit with his position.

And, Mr. Spea ker, I do think that he looks a bit forlorn sitting over in that far corner, and I do suggest in all seriousness that if that seat was his choice then I have no criticism of it, none whatever if that was his choice. If it wasn't his choice, I su11;gest to the present First Minister and to his colleagues tha t the position that he had occupied in the House, and heading the government for the years that he did, entitled him to a more distinguished seat than the one in which he's cast. I don't know the answer to that, but I make that statement with all seriousness. I think he chose it and that's okay.

If he didn't,. I think some one of his former colleagues would gladly have given him a seat a little closer. We folks over here, Mr. Speaker, liked to have him close. We're used to him. We feel -- I'd feel more at home if he were here. He doesn't seem to be in his usual place sitting away over there. I would have, were he here,

March 19, 1968 327 (MR. CAMPBELL cont'd.)...... something else to say about him but I'll await another occasion till he is present. I'm glad, however, that the Minister of Industry and Commerce is present because I did want to join with some of the others in paying some attention to the lecture that he read us yesterday. I admire his optimism - I do indeed - and his enthusiasm, and I for one am certain ly one that does IllOt blame him for it at all.

I think a man shows a great deal of courage who, in the face of the situation that exists in Manitoba, can display such undoubted optimism as he seemed to exude yesterday. I just want to discuss for a minute some of the matters that he raised, and quite p:roperly, because this is the key question that he was discussing, as to how much value has come from the sponsorship of the Industrial Development Fund and what credit Manitoba, what advantage Manitoba has received from those expenditures.

Now my honourable friend says that that Fund has been responsible, if I got his words correctly, for helpilng to provide 4300 jobs, and he says who can - and I'm paraphrasing what he said -- but as I understood it, he said who can say that those positions would have been filled, that those industries would have come here if it had not been for this Fund? Well, Mr. Speaker, nobody can say that. This is one of these things that can not be proven because we can't say what would have happened. But by the same token my honourable friend can not say that they came here because of the Industrial Development Fund.

My honourable friend, just as we can't prove that they wouldn't have come if it hadn't been here, he can't prove that they would not have come if it hadn't of been here. The fact is that we don't know in those questions. But what we cilo know, Mr. Speaker, what we do know is what happened before we had a Development Fund. This is the thing that we do know, and the fact is, Mr. Speaker, that the industries were coming in here at that time.

I want to give my honourable friend all the credit that can possibly be given to him under these circumstances because goodness knows I don't want to run down the Province of Manitoba, I don't want to interfere with any development that's going on. We need the development; I'm all for it; but I challenge my honourable friend to show that the jobs that have been created, the industries that have come, have come just because of the fact that this Fund was operating. I could point to just one industry, just one that came here before there was such a Fund and I don't doubt, Mr.

Speaker, that it probably is bigger than all of the ones that have come in the time that the Fund has been in operation - just one - and it ca:me here before we had this Fund. Now I would l:lke to say once again, Mr. Speaker, as I have said on other occasions here and I think it's so axiomatic that it doesn't need to be argued, these industries do not come be cause my honourable friends are sitting in the Treasury bench seats, they did not come be cause we were sitting there; they come because Manitoba offers them opportunities in their line of business.

Thompson came not because we were the government but because of the wealth that's up in the north there. That's why they come and I'm glad they do come, and other industries come for that reason. It's not the government that brings them, whether it be us or somebody else, and the fact is I think, Mr. Speaker, that that one industry that I speak of, just one, has provided more jobs than all the jobs that my honourable friend tries to take credit for,. and he can't prove that those jobs were provided by the organization that he speaks of. Now let's have done with this kind of argument, Mr.

Speaker, because they just do not hold water. When my honourable friend tries to build up his case, or anybody else on that side of the House, by te !ling us about what they call the deficiencies of 1958 and the situation that this government faced, I don't think that - and it's not that I'm afraid to debate that ques tion at all, but I think we want to be looking to the future not at the past - but when this type of argument is indulged in then I have to make some representation on what did happen about that same time. When you're speaking of 1958 and the years that preceded it, Mr.

Speaker, for those who say that the government of that day was not imaginative and was not forward looking and was not progressive, I ask him to remember a couple of important facts in the industrial life of Manitoba, and the first one I want to mention is the reorganization of the electrical. industr y in this' ·area; starting in this area where the government of the day was willin� to buy out the private company and to make an offer that I won 't go into to the City of Winnipeg, but was will ing to buy out the private company with what was pretty big money in those days in order to reorganize the electrical industry here, in order to put it on a sound basis to go ahead and provide the power that was necessary in order to guarantee that this province would have not

328 March 19, 1968 (MR . CAMPBELL cont' d.) .... only no black-outs as some provinces had, no brown-outs as other provinces had, that never for one minute were short of electrical industry. This did more to establish a base for industry in this province than any single thing that's been done since, and if you're talking about imagination and initiative then think about the other arm of that particular program; think about the farm electrification program.

That program was more imaginative, more daring, more inspired than anything that has ever been attempted before or since in the Province of Manitoba, and all you need to do is think about the situation that existed then and what was done, and that in turn laid the basis , Mr . Speaker, for any industrialization that my honourable friends have any hope of getting outside of the urban dev elopment. Now , Mr.

Speaker, do you wonder that some of us get just a little bit, a little bit inter ested when we hear folks from that side of the House continually referring to the fact that - suggesting that nothing of importance was done before the time that this government came in to offi ce. The f oundations were laid in those years that you're talking about. The fou ndations were laid and the industries came bef ore there was ever an Industrial Development Fund in the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, this can be dealt with at length on some other occasion, but I wanted to mention it now while my honourable friend is basking in his own aura of accom plishment that he thinks is so good. And incidentally, Mr . Speaker, let me remind my honourable friend that one of the marks of a statesman as distinguished from a politician is that you be fair to your predecess or .

My honourable friend is not only unfair to the Opposition in this House but he is unfair to his predecessor who is also a colleague, because my honourable friend continually and continuom�- and I can find the document to prove it - continually uses such phrases as "Industrial development is now going ahead in the Province of Manitoba; now we 're doing this and doing the other thing." There was never a Minister in this House in our time or any other that believed more sincerely in what he was doing than the Honourable Minister who used to be Minister of Industry and Commerce and who is now the Provincial Treasurer.

He believed in it if anybody else ever did. I was never so convinced, but he believed in it and he worked at it just as diligently as my honourable friend has, and f or my honourable fr iend after his col league had been in that position f or ten years - no, he wasn't there the whole ten years but for the time of the Fund, -- f or him to use such terms as "now we 're doing this and now things are starting to go. " Mr .

Speaker, this government has been in office for practically ten years, and when my honourable friend the member for Ch urchill just now is telling us all of the things that he says should be done up north, has he forgotten that his government has been in office for ten years ? This was going to be the great program of this government. I wasn't even going to mention the deficim cies of the northern program. I wan 't going to say a word about it. I don't need to. My honourable friend from Churchill has said it, but I don't mind about that part.

What I do say to my honourable friend the Minister of Industry and Commerce is: don't forget that there was a department there and there was a Minister there that believed in this just as sin cerely as you did before you took over, and some of the literature that has been coming out certainly indicates that my honourable friend is unaware of that. Mr . Speaker, I intend to mention only two or three matters directly from the Speech from the Throne and those briefly .

First and forem ost, on the first page we have the statement that "My Ministers will in sist that" - I don't think this is quite proper language, Mr. Speaker, but this is it - "My Ministers will insist that suff icient financial resources be made available to provincial govern ments to enable them to discharge their constitutional responsibility." Mr . Speaker, we 're hearing a little too much these days by different provinces about insisting on what the Federal Government has got to do . We're not in a position to insist; neither they nor we .

They can't insist on what we've got to do, we can't insist on what they've got to do, but the tendancy has been by my honourable friends over here to say that Ottawa now is the reason for all their troubles. Let me give you a few figures if they 're going to insist that Ottawa does better financial ly -- and I' m not one, Mr. Speaker, who tries to start arguments with my honourable friend about which was the better government down east, whether it was the time the Liberals were in or the Conservaiives.

In my opinion, they 've both been bad enough on more occasions than one, and we've had some fairly recent examples. But the records speak for themselves, and when my honourable fri ends say they are going to insist on more financial accommodation,

March 19 , 1968 329 (MR. CAMPBELL cont' d.) •••••• let me tell them this . The last year that Mr. Diefenbaker was in office - the last full year - the tax agreement netted the province, what they gave to the Province of Manitoba, as I make out the figures , amounted to a total of $3 2 million-odd . In 1963 they had gone - th at was by the time of th e end of Mr. Diefenbaker's tenure - they had gone to $56 million - again in round figures. That's a gain in five years of $23 million-odd, or 71 percent increase in five years . Now in that fiscal 1963, as I mention ed, the amount was $56 million approximately.

In the last public accounts that we had laid on our desks recently the total, as I figure it, is approximately $9'8 million, a difference of $42 million in four years. In other words, a 75 percent increase , Mr . Speaker, and if my honourable friends want to talk about what the Fed eral Government has been doing - and goodne ss knows I don 't usually rise to their defence - I simply say to them, look at the figures.

These are the figures of what Manitoba received back in the time of the Diefenbaker government and what they received in the time of the Pearson government, and I repeat that I don't think any province is or should be in a posi tion to insist, certainly they're in a posi tion to ask for what they think is right and they're entitled to get what is right, but the question is who 's right on these matters.

I think that what is pointed up by all of these figures is that both the Federal Government and the Provincial Gover nment need to be paying mighty close attention to the hei ght that their expenditures have al ready got to and I know that the Ho nourable the First Minister and I are in agreement on this particular question, and I think that in spite of the free-wheeling spenders that he 's associ ated with over there that he 's going to try and get a check rein on them and I heartily approve of that program and will not be criticizing him for it.

I was going to say something about the cos t-price squeeze and I don't blame this govern ment for it. I agree completely with the Minister who spoke here, saying that the national or even the international situation has much more to do with this than what the local situation has .

I agree with him completely on that, this is the fact, but the point that some of us have been making is that the government of the day, particularly the former First Minister and particu larly the former Minister of Agriculture, George Hutton , made it very plain here that they intended to el iminate or at least reduce this cos t-price squeeze, and we can quote

chapter and verse time and time again where they themselves said that the measures they were putting in were doing this , they were accomplishing this, and the fact is that we have the admissio n of the continuation of tille cost- price squeeze right in the present Speech from the Throne . And yet our criticism of the present government is not that we think they were in a position to take the primary acttions on this, we knew they weren 't, but they said they were going to and now they have to admit that they were not able to . Mr.

Speaker, as my honour able the leader of this Party did, I would say just a word about the Electoral Divisions Act and the proposal to deal with that Act . I want to remind this House that when the bills to which he referred, the one es tablishing the electoral divisions themselves and the Election Act of that time , were put through this House, both.of them in 1957 went through this House through every stage of the procee dings as an unaminous vote.

Tliat was the unanimous foeling of this House that this was the right move to make am I join whole heartedly in what the Lea der of this Party said, and I counsel the government not to interfere with the type of commissi on that was set up at that time. It's completely non-partisan, non political, independent, and that's the way this job should be done . I have one other comment to make there to the government. Don't make the mistake when you 're dealing with this matter - don 't make the mistake of doing it the easy way that every other jurisdiction that I know of has done , and that is by increasing seats .

That's the easy way; that 's the way that every jurisdiction that I am familiar with which has tackled this program is to increase the number of seats. Don't do it that way. Mr . Speaker, we 're over governed in the Province of Manitoba as it is now . We don't need more members in the House; we don't need all the members that we 've got in other spheres of government. Do n't compound the error by adding to the membership in this House . I agree with the statement of this Party policy as it was put on the record by the Leader of this Party a short time ago .

I think it 's a sound basis; I think it 's one that is overdue, that we should be looking again at the representations in the House, beca use the traditional reasons for the disparity that now exists have long since passed away in my view . I have been proud of the fact, Mr . Speaker, that! who was known to be rural-oriented - everybody agreed with that and I admit it - I was: the one who heade d the government that took the first step , not a very

330 March 19, 1968 (MR. CAMPBEL L cont'd. ) •... long step I admit, Mr. Speaker, not a very long step, but it was taken with a caucus that was predominantly rural, and I felt that it was a time that we should do it while a rural man occupied the Chair of the Premier in this House . We made the start and we did it the hard way . We didn't increase the membership; we did it the way that is difficult, of cutting out some seats in the rural area. And I repeat, Mr . Speaker, don't do it the easy way; have the courage to do it the right way. We have enough members in this House; don't increase them .

Now I gather that from what the Honourable Member for Virden said, and I thought - although I wasn 't certain of what the Honourable Member for Pembina was saying today - I rather gathered that my honourable friend the First Minister faces a situation in his caucus with which I can confe ss I am quite familiar , but this kind of a situation has to be resolved.

Times move along and the needs of the situation should be met, and it's time that an improve ment was made under legis lation which I believe was right at the time - right at the time - perhap s I should confess and say as far as we could go at the time, but it was a start and it didn't just deal with the inequities between rural seats and urban seats, it dealt also with the inequities that had grown up between rural seats themselves and urban seats themselve s. But I think an improvement is overdue .

I see that my honourable friend the former Premier has come back into the House and now I hav en't time to say the nice things about him that I was going to say . I should say to him that I've already said the good things; it was the others that I was going to say . I hav en't time now and I shall have to pay him my respects on some other occa sion . Mr . Speaker, I hope - I hope that if I have any influence in this House at all that I can at this stage persuade my honourable friend who sits in the seat of government to deal in a state s manlike manner with this question of electoral redistribution.

I know it is not an easy question. I commend to my honourable friend the statement of policy that was read by the Leader of this Party a short time ago . I think it's a good statement; it's likely it's not perfect, probably it can be improved upon, but the situation needs careful cons ideration .

Let 's not ever in the Province of Manitoba turn our backs on the measure of progre ss that has been made; let 's not ever go back to the days when gerrymandering could be accomplished here; let's not ever keep a system that has outgrown whatever its usefulne ss was in the past; but let 's do it all in a fair non-partisan aboveboard way that all of us can agree that we 're going to maintain completely the integrity of this independent non-partisan high level commi ssion, for, Mr. Speaker, I'm convinced that 's the right way to do this difficult job . MR .

SPEAKER: I wonder if I may conclude that the Throne Speech debate is at an end. There is a minute to go . MR . LYON: . . . . in that minute, I have not taken

part in the debate and I had not in tended to take

part in the debate and my partici pation will extend 45 seconds . I pay my res pects to you, Sir, and I will have the opportunity no doubt in the budget debate or some other debate to pay them at more length and to say those things that should be said of the excellent way in which you carry on your high office in this House . .But Lrise ouly for 30 seconds . Probably after he has heard me , not with the concurr ence of the Honourable Member for Lakesi de, but just to express to the House the thought that occurred to me as he took his

part in the debate here tonight with his usual vigor and with that concisene ss of language and with that logic with which we have come to know him in the House , and I think that while we may not agree with what he says that it's a matter of some moment, a matter of some record for this House that the member for Lakeside is celebrating this year I believe his 46th consec utive year as a member of this Legisla ture , and I think it's a tribute to him that he could participate as he has today with the vigor that he has in this debate, and speaking fo r myself and I think for a good number of people in this House , I hope he 's around for many many more Throne Speech deb ates to participate as well as he did in this one .

MR . CAMPBELL: I will be . MR . SPEAKER: Before I put the question, probably I might read the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Virden, seco nded by the honourable member for St. Matthew s, that an humble add ress be presented to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor as follow s: We Her Majest y's dutiful and loyal subjects, the Legi slative As sembly of Manitoba in ses sion assem bled, humbly thank Your Honour for the gracious speech which Your Honour has been pleased to address us at the opening of the present sess ion .

March 19, 1968 331 MR . SPEAKER put the que stion and after a voice vote declared the motion carri ed. MR . WEIR: Yeas and nays, Mr. Speaker, please . MR . SPEAKE:R: Call in the members. A standing volte was taken, the results being as follo ws: YEAS: Mesi;rs. Baizley, Beard, Bjo rnson, Carroll, Cowan, Craik, Einarson, Enns , Evans, Hamilton, Jeannotte, Johnson, Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McKellar ,M cKenzie , McL ean, Mas niuk, Roblin, Shewman, Spivak, Stanes, Steen, Watt, Weir, Witney and Mesdames Forbes and Morrison . NAYS: Mess rs.

Ba rkman, Campbell , Cherniack , Clement, Dawson, Desja rdins, Doern, Fox, Froese , Green, Guttormson, Hanuschak, Harri s, Hillho us e, Johnston, Kawchuk, Miller , Molgat, Patrick, Pa ulley, Petursson, Shoemaker, Tanch ak, Uskiw and Vielf aure . MR . CLERK: Yeas 29; nays 25 . MR . SPEAKEH: I declare the motion carri ed. MR . MOLGAT: Mr . Speaker, on a point of order I rise . In view of the fact that the mover of this motion was not in his seat, was the motion in order at this time ? -- (Inter jection) -- MR . SPEAKEB.: I'm at a loss to answer that particular question at this time .

I'm sure it was only a question. MR . MOLGAT: It's a question to the Speaker, Mr . Speaker . MR . WEIR: Mr . Speaker, if the honourable member had felt that way I would think he should have cha llenged it before the vote was taken, not after. MR . MO LG AT: Mr . Speaker, I had no means of knowing whether the honourable member who moved the motion would be in his seat or not. MR . WEIR: Mr . Speaker, I don't propose to start a debate .

I would move, seconded by the Honourable the Provincial Treasurer that the Address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Gover nor be engrossed and presented by such members of the House as are of the Executive Council and the mover and the seconder of the Address. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion. . MR . MOLGAT: Mr . Speaker, should this be done tonight ? MR . SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote doolared the motion carrie d. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I have a messa ge from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor . MR .

SPEAKER: The Lieutenant-Governor transmits to the Legisla tive As sembly of Manitoba Es timates of sums required for the services ci. the province for the fiscal year end ing the 31st day of March, 1969, and recommends these Es timates to the Legislative Ass em bly . MR . EVANS: Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General that the said messag:e together with the Es timates accompanying the same be referred to the Committee of Supply. MR . SPEAKlE:R presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . EVANS: Mr .

Speaker, I beg to move, seco nded by the Honourable the Attorney General that this H01:tse will at its next sitting res olve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Maje sty. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion. MR . PAULLEY: Mr . Speaker, if I may direct a question to the mover of the resolution . I appreciate the fact that this is a routine motion but if it was carried through fully to the de gree that it's worded we would be dealing with the matter of estimates tomorrow.

It's been the practic e, as I understand it for a delay of a period of time before we go into the cons ideration -- a day or so. I wonder if that is the intention of the governmeit to give us at least until Thursday, and preferably till some other day , but at least until Thursday to consider of the estimates. MR . LYON: Mr . Speaker, I believe it's the intention of the Provincial Treasurer to move this motion which then has the effect as I understand it of putting the Committee of Supply on the Order Paper, not necessa rily meaning the calling of that Committee as a matter of government busine ss tomorrow.

It would be our intention as previously discussed with the · Leaders of the parties opposite that we should call other government Orders tomorrow such as the resolutions whilch are on the Order Paper and try to clean up any othe r government busine ss that there is, and then if we have gone through the Order Paper and cleane d up all of the gov ernment business, perhap s move on to Private Members' resolut ions if that would be agreeable

332 March 19, 1968 (MR . LYON cont' d.) .• ••• to fill out tomorrow and then Thursday move to Committee of Supply and start in on the debate then , thereby giving honourable members an opportunity to look at the Estimates. MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Speaker, that would be agreeable to us if we get the Estimates tonight. MR. LYON: That's the understanding . MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, if I may be allowed to speak again. It is intended to distribute the Estimates immediately. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney General , that this House will at its next sitting resolve itself into a Committee to consider Ways and Means for raising of the Supply to be granted to Her Maje sty. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, perhaps before the adjournment motion is put I might have leave of the House to make a short announcement concerning the calling of departments in the Committee of Supply .

A list has been distributed to the Leader of the Official Opposition and the Leader of the New Democratic Party and the Member for Rhineland setting forth the pro posal of the government as to the order in which the departments will be called. I suppose for the sake of the record I could read that into the record at the present time and then ascertain if there is agreement to it.

The first department would be Publi c Utilities; secondly Mines and Natural Re sources; third, Attorney-General; fourth, Industry and Commerce; fifth, Agric ulture; sixth, Provincial Treasurer; seventh, Health; eighth, Urban Development and Munici pal Affairs; ninth, Education; tenth, Highways; eleventh, Welfare; twelfth, Labour; thirteenth, Provincial Secretary; fourteen, Public Works; Fifteen, Tourism and Recreation; sixteen, Ex ecutive Council; seventeen, Legislation. MR. MOLGAT : This is agreeable to us.

We have asked that there be schedules set out for the whole of the Session and the proposal is completely agreeable. I wonder if the Minister would agree to giving us a list so that all of the members of the House would have this in hand, they would know what 's coming up next. MR. LYON: One reason for reading it off now was to get it on to Hansard so that every one would have a copy handy.

I should mention of course, and I believe that this was under stood and is understood when these lists are announced, that these are not hard and fast in the sense that if it becomes neces sary for instance for a Minister to be absent from the House on government business or through illness or for some other reason that the government would attempt of course to give as much notice of change as possible and thereby let honourable mem bers opposite know that there would be some change in the calling of the order .

But so far as it is possible we will call the Departments in the order in which they have been listed tonight. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Speaker, the proposition will be acceptable to all of my colleagues and I think this is a step in the right direction for the orderly conduct of the business of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . FROE SE : Mr . Speaker, I appreciate getting a list of the way the Estimates will be treated. I would have preferred having Education a little earlier on but if the others are agree able to it I will agree to it as well. MR . LYON: Mr .

Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Provincial Treasurer, that the House do now adjourn. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2:30 Wednesday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-2-13
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 2nd hansardpdf 13.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5fa495d085ae91a3af39bd12d9af169484c58bca

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).