Manitoba Hansard — 1 November 1988 (Sitting 69, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-69

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 69 - 1:30 p.m., TU ESDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 1988. ISSN 0542- 5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

NAME ALCOCK, Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Sieve BURRELL, Parker CARR,James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Gulzar CHORNOPYSKI, William CONNERY, Edward Hon. COWAN,Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOER,Gary DOWNEY, James Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie EVANS, Leonard FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen Hon. GAUDR Y, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard, J. LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M.

MALOWAY, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. McCRAE, James Hon. MINENKO, Mark MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation CONSTITUENCY Osborne St. Norbert Thompson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkirk Kildonan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin-Russell Concordia Arthur Emerson Niakwa Aiel St. James Lakeside Charle swood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Virden St.

Boniface Minnedosa Ellice Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Gimli Logan Transcona ln kster Elmwood Assiniboia Morris Brandon West Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, November 1, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Mark Minenko (Chairman of the Committee of Supply): Mr. Speaker. the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer), that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Mrs.

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Community Services): I am pleased to table the Annual Report for 1987-88 of the Employment Services and Economic Security Department. Thank you . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the Speaker's gallery where we have with us today His Excellency Bruce Brown , who is the High Commissioner of New Zealand. On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ANNOUNCEMENT Mr.

Speaker: Following along with the tradition of our baby boom, I am sure all Honourable Members would like to join me in congratulating the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Taylor) and Sharon Tefs on the birth of their daughter , a sister for Catherine and Sean. .On behalf of all Honourable Members, congratulations! Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): I would just like to respond to that and thank the Members of the House for their good wishes, and I might ask if the Pages would care to distribute these to the NDP and Conservative Members on the other side. Thank you very much .

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Doerksen & Gronau Limited Loan Gaurantee Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): My question will be directed to the Acting Premier (Mr. Cummings). Too frequently in recent months we have been reacting to and reading in the paper of companies that unfortunately have not been able to maintain their financial viability in this economy. For whatever reason, they are tragic stories and Governments ofttimes feel helpless in retrospect to save them and/or do anything in terms of a positive response . This morning I spent a considerable amount of time at a company in Fort Garry, Doerksen & Gronau Limited .

Just for the information of the Members, this company has been in business for 26 years, employs close to 50 people and has $4 million to $5 million in sales. Last year, the first time in their history, they showed a loss and yet they were carried by the banks and the financial institutions based on their reputation and their ability to produce . They have shown a profit in September; they have shown a profit in October. They have gone to both levels of Government, the province and the federal levels, asking for assistance. They have been turned down by both levels, Mr. Speaker.

They have gone to the Business Development Bank. They have asked for assistance there and were turned down . They have gone to the Western Diversification Fund and were also advised that there were no programs available for their particular situation . This Government has an opportunity here to respond and write the headlines as opposed to reading about them in the morning. What I would like this Minister to undertake is to Immediately intervene . My question is, Mr. Speaker: will he immediately Intervene to assist this organiza1ion with a loan guarantee to help them turn their corporation around?

If I may beg your indulgence for just one more minute , the company employees have agreed to reduce their salaries by 50 percent In a lot of cases and 20 percent in the others. They are prepared to make the effort. Will this Government take Immediate action to help this organization? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, no Government wants to hear of or see corporations with large numbers of employees that find themselves in financial difficulty for whatever reason.

At the same time, I am not aware of the details of this company and I will undertake to have further discussions with the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst) and make sure that we have left no stone unturned. •

(1335) Government Intervention Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, appreciate the Deputy Leader's (Mr. Cummings) position on this. Unfortunately, this company is living under a smoking gun. Their bank has threatened to call their 2654

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 particular note this afte rnoon and throw them into receivership. Will the Deputy Leader contact the Royal Bank of Canada and encourage them to give a short postponement while his department is reviewing the circumstances and the facts? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Without any kind of detail, without any kind of backgr ound, I think it would be very foolhardy on my part to undertake that kind of action on the part of the Government.

If the Member were to bring forward the information, bring forward all of the facts behind this situation, and if they had come forward in a logical sequence of time so we could have an opportunity to absorb them, it might be more possible to provide a definitive answer at this time, but to have a Government come in at the last moment without having had an opportunity to receive all of the background would simply not be appropri ate action. Mr. Angus: First of all, the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Ernst) is well aware of this, has all of the facts at his fingertips, so that information is readily available. I will guar antee to have individuals from that corporation in this Minis ter's office by 2:30 this afternoon. Free Trade Agreement Doerksen and Gronau Limited Closure Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): My final question is that there appears to be some concerns from this organization-and I will quote from a letter that I will table- "lt seems unfair that after gearing up for export and successfu lly- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Would the Honourable Member kindly put his question. Mr. Angus: I am sorry.

My question is, given the fact that this company is prepared to make the following statement-m ay I quote it? Some Honourable Members: No, no. Mr. Angus: I cannot. Mr. Speaker, then, given the fact tha t this company is prepared to go on record suggesting that the Free Trade Agreement is causing some damage, that their company has been labelled, will this Minister get involved in this organization and will he help them? Will he table a definitive plan to help other companies like that company? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Obviou sly, now the Member wants to reveal his true motives for bringing this last-ditch effort to negotiate into the Legislature. The vast majority of companies in this province will benefit from a free trade arrangement with one of the largest consuming nations of the world. We need access to the markets. We have had a demonstrable difference in the value of the Can adian dol lar since the fearmongers and the Liberal and NDP, who are trying to tear down the free trade arrangement, have all of a sudden realized it might not be possible for the free trade arrangement to pass.

We have seen a demonstrable drop in our dollar . We have seen those Members opposite, with great glee, say they want to tear up the Free Trade Agre ement. Let them demonstrate the jobs that are going to be lost if we do lose to free trade. * (1 340) Adverse Effects on Business Mr . John Angus (St. Norbert): A new series ol questions on the same subjects to the same Minister with a

preamble. We on this side of the House have been prepared and repea tedly tried to point out those firms in Manitoba that may be adversely affected by the free trade arrangement. The Government has continually touted the benefits. My question to this Minister at this particular time is: do you have a definitive plan to assist those organizations, those companies that are going to be "l osers" in the Free Trade Agreement, and will you table it? Hon.

Glen Cu mm ings (De puty Premier): The operative word in what the Honourable Member just brought forward is "ma y." He has not identified the areas even with the corporation that he brought forward today. We do not have free trade at this time. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Cummings: Every study that has been done regarding the increased trade between this country- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. lt appears there are several Ministers attempting to help the Honourable Acting First Minister. I have recognized the Honou rable Acting First Minister. Mr.

Cummings: Every study that has been done to examine the benefits of an increased trade between the companies and the population of this province to the larger and more affluent in terms of consumer orientation to the country to the south of us, that larger market, has been beneficial to our manufacturers. lt is beneficial to our agriculture. Mr. Speaker, they are simply trying to create a cloud of fear. Mr. Angus: The cloud of fear that is created is certainly real in the minds of 50 emplo yees and their families in Fort Garry. Business Closure Speculation Mr. John Angus (St.

Norbert): My supple mentary question is that will this Minister contact the Royal Bank and ask them if they have labelled this particular company under the Free Trade Agreement and withheld their line of credit for a perfectly viable organization 2655

r) Tuesday, November 1, 1988 because of the impending doom of the Free Trade Agreement? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): There are an awful of assumptions in the Honourable Member's question . Mr. Speaker, we have always contended that we are prepared to examine any possibilities of changes associated with the trade arrangement.

Let us not get into the situation where we have the Members opposite so adamantly opposed to a free trade arrangement that is based on the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, an agreement that will expand our opportunity, an agreement that will get jobs for our sons and daughters , an agreement that will allow us to continue to export our agricultural products. Let him not forget that the more he tries to bring up the spectre of losses, the more he clouds the fact that there are a great many gains for this province . *

(1345) Doerksen and Gronau Limited Government Intervention Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert, with a final supplementary question . Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker , my final supplementary question is: Given all of the politics aside of who is right and who is wrong , will this Minister investigate today the circumstances of this company and try to rewrite the headlines so that 50 employees of this firm in Fort Garry will be able to feed their families through the Christmas period? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr.

Speaker, this company approached the Industry , Trade and Tourism Minister (Mr. Ernst) on very short notice . Now if this is an issue that has been building up, then why is it that all of a sudden when we get into the free trade debate, that now it is being brought forward on such very short notice? The Members opposite are demanding that interim stopgap measures be applied without requiring some reasonable common-sense judgment being put forward by the Government . The Minister of Industry and Trade is not here today , but certainly - pardon me, Mr. Speaker .

In his absence, I will tell the Members opposite that we will take any of these concerns seriously and this concern will be taken seriously . It is very, very unusual that a Member would bring forward this kind of complaint on short notice in the Legislature without having a political motivation . Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Is that an order, Mr. Speaker, that last comment? Mr. Speaker, I found it rather ironic the comments on free trade .

This Government supports free trade to New Jersey and not free trade in Canada, because the issue was never raised on bus manufacturing with the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Premier of Quebec yesterday . City of Winnipeg Act Election Expenses Disclosure Mr. Gary Doer- (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) .

In the White Paper that was tabled in this House awhile ago leading into reform on civic Government in Winnipeg, there was a recommendation to improve the election expense by-laws in the City of Winnipeg to provide for mandatory disclosure of election contributions at City Hall, the mandatory ceilings and the mandatory limits for the amount of money a corporation may give a person running for council. The Min ister has that information .

I know he has a working paper and the start of draft legislation some six months ago that we were prepared to introduce last spring in terms of legislation to reform The City of Winnipeg Act for disclosure . In light of all the rumours about developers and the relationship with city councillors, the Gang of Nineteen and the developers of this city, is the Minister going to bring in reform of the election expenses provisions of The City of Winnipeg Act to deal with mandatory disclosure in this Session of the Legislature? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): First of all , the last couple of days it is now the Gang of Eighteen . Howeve r, I have consulted with my staff in regard to The Municipal Council Conflict of Information Act, and there is a

section in that Act that provides that no councillor is required to disclose a gift if it is worth less than $250 .00. Therefore , the $200 provided by the development to the councillor in question during his campaign would not require disclosure . However, as reported in the last couple of days, the city clerk , Bob Hayes , has also quoted that while there is no legal requirement to file a statement on the election expenses, councillors must, under The Interest Act, declare any future gifts of $250 or more made to them or a member of their family .

I have asked my staff , in consultation with the municipal council or the Municipal Affairs Branch, to go over that conflict of information that is now in place to the councillors and I will get back. If we are ready to introduce legislation regarding the White Paper, as I have said earlier , I would introduce that as part of the legislation in the next Session . Mr.

Doer: I hope in the Minister's review he will support perhaps the Private Member's Bill on election reform in The City of Winnipeg Act , because I believe we have to pass the legislation in this Session to be ready for the next civic election in the City of Winnipeg . *

(1350) Mayor's Accountability Chair Appointments Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): A further question to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. 2656

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 Ducharme) . The White Paper also deals with the fact that at present a loose-knit coalition , and it is called the Gang of Nineteen, Gang of Seventeen - the Liberal Tory coalition-meets to decide to who will get the plum spots at City Hall, and comments on the fact that there is no accountability for that group when they assign those very important Chair positions to the various councillors, and a recommendation is to hold the Mayor accountable to the public hearings for appointing those Chairs, a person elected by the whole city.

My question to the Minister of Urban Affairs is: Is he looking at amending the legislation to hold the Mayor accountable and responsible for appoin ti ng those Chairs rather than the loose-knit coalition, the Gang of Nineteen coalition, that is not accountable to any members of the public? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Miniter of Urban Affair ): Mr. Speaker, maybe I can give the Member across the way some history . A few years ago there was what was called the ICEC Committee . I remember when a Gang of Fifteen, composed of seven NDPs and eight Independents , figured out their committee chairman .

I did not hear the Member or that particular Government question it at that time, but I guess right now it is a little different question . Now to answer his question in regard to whether consideration be given to the Mayor having more powers, I have said previously that I will bring in the necessary legislation so that council can know at the time when they are doing their boundaries, etc ., for the next fall, and I will bring in amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act in the next Session . We know that it will be long before the fall of '89. City of Winnipeg Act Reform Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Oppoition): The Member well knows there is no member of the NDP on the Gang of Nineteen now at City Hall. The Member knows our position in writing a year and a half ago on civic reform . My question to the Minister is: The present system of accountability to the City of Winnipeg could be replaced by a system whereby the Mayor appointed the various Chairs of the committees, and the Mayor , instead of just snipping ribbons at City Hall, would appoint those major committee Chairs and would be held accountable by the people of Winnipeg if those Chairs did not fulfill their function .

Does the Minister not think that is a more accountable and responsible way consistent with the public hearings that took place during the Cherniack Report? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Miniter of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I do not know. There was one Member that was appointed the other day that was at one time NDP for 25 years or something , but I guess he is no longer considered one of those . However , we went through the process of the Cherniack Report . Everyone contributed toward that report . During the process of City Council-the Member over there is now saying that no city councillors are accountable .

I do not share that view , the motive that the individual is putting on this floor . I believe that all councillors , like all MLAs in this particular room , are accountable . I will, as I mentioned before , be bringing in changes to The City of Winnipeg Act when we bring in our next Session. City of Winnipeg Act Increase Councillors Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I am absolutely shocked that the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) would support this loose coalition , this backroom coalition .

My question to the Minister of Urban Affairs is given the fact that councillors from the Inner City generally voted against suburban sprawl and given the fact that a reduced number of councillors would reduce the number of Inner City councillors that provided the greatest fight for suburban sprawl that would cost taxpayers millions of dollars, would the M inister reconsider his position on the size of City Council so that Inner City councillors could fight for maintaining a city balance between development and sprawl that cost millions and millions of dollars, a balance that was led generally, not in all cases , but generally by Inner City councillors in terms of the development of this city?

Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affair): Mr. Speaker, I did not go on record as supporting any coalition . What I am saying is that councillors do face a different type of position and a different type of Government that can be improved on. I did go on record with my letter after the first reading in regard to the subdivision agreement. I have not received a second reading . I do not believe that proper legislation can come forward piecemeal on The City of Winnipeg Act.

I will at that time, and I repeat again for the Member , that I will bring in the necessary changes to The City of Winnipeg Act during the next Session . •

(1355) Rail Line Abandonment Moratorium . ! Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and • Transportation): Mr. Speaker , last week on October 26, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) took a question as notice on my behalf from the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) , and I would like to reply to that question . I found it ironical that after waiting for two months for a quest ion from the Member for Dauphin , that the day that I attended a funeral , that was the day he decided to ask the question . · The question was regarding rail line abandonment .

I want to indicate that our Government and myself are taking the lead role in terms of development and promotion of a responsible rail rationalization program . In fact , I personally discussed this with the federal 2657

l Tuesday, November 1, 1988 Minister on various occasions. At the officials level, the western provinces recently completed a more detailed proposal for our rail rationalization process, including the mechanics as to the implementation of the program. The proposal is being reviewed by the four western provinces responsible for transportation . We hope to have an agreement within the near future . As a matter of Information , two of the provinces have been attempting to limit the abandonment Impact evaluation to strict economics.

We have been adamant in continuing to press for a process that considers the full range of social and economic impacts of abandonment. This is essential to the Interests of communities and shippers . Further, I have asked the federal Minister to delay abandonment process proceedings pending the introduction of a more responsible and less adversarial process . We will continue to take a lead role in this process . Psychiatriats Manitoba Total Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): I have a question for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) . Improving the quality of mental health in Manitoba is my Party's prime objective .

But we have a different approach , not the one this Minister has taken by undermining the collective agreement with MMA . To be more effective , this administration has failed to improve the psychiatric manpower in Manitoba. Problems still remain the same. . My question is: will the Minister of Health tell us precisely how many more psychiatrists are practising in the Province of Manitoba than there were six months ago? Hon. Donald Orchard (Miniater of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am going to have to check for specific numbers , but I believe it is two or three, and I will provide that for my honourable friend .

Manitoba Medical Association Violation of Agreement Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, given the fact that the doctors are threatening legal action against this Government because of the Minister's desire to violate the Medical Association 's collective agreement, can the Minister tell this House what steps he will take to correct his error of judgment on violating a collective agreement? Hon. Donald Orchard (Miniater of Health): Mr. Speaker, let us be perfectly clear who my honourable friend , the Liberal Health critic, is advocating for. It Is not the doctors he is advocating for.

It is the doctors' union that he Is advocating for. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in the statement to the House, and indeed, in answers to my honourable friend yesterday, we take very seriously, on this side of the House, the severe problem at the Brandon Mental Health Centre and we are taking steps, In consultation with the Manitoba Medical Association, the Manitoba Psychiatric Association and the two mental health centres, in an attempt to resolve that problem both in the short run and in the long run.

Given my honourable friend's question from a short two and a half weeks ago complaining about the psychiatric shortage at Brandon Mental Health Centre , I find this flip-flop in defenc_e of the doctors' union to be incomprehensible . Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, the Minister is right. I am advocating- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Cheema: Listen to me. I am advocating for a group who is very vulnerable , who is underserved, who have been neglected by this administration for the last six months .

I am advocating for the people who are suffering with the mental health care in Manitoba and I resent this Minister's remarks . *

(1400) Psychiatrist Shortage Brandon Mental Health Centre Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is: Given that the Minister is setting a new tone of violating collective agreements, whether it is for the MMA or potentially others, will the Minister explain how this bizarre approach to mental health will solve the crisis of mental health in Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Miniater of Health): Mr.

Speaker , the only bizarre approach that I have seen so far in the House is the bizarre approach of the Liberal Party, and I presume that the critic is speaking on behalf of all 19 other Liberal Members in the House. Oh, I am sorry. I forgot about that other fellow, and obviously you have, as well. The efforts that I am undertaking to resolve the psychiatric manpower shortage in Brandon is in the full attempt to provide services to the 300 patients who are resident in Brandon Mental Health Centre , as well as the 2,000 Manitobans who are served on an outpatient basis from that facility.

I am going to make every effort possible on behalf of those 2,300 Manitobans to resolve a long-standing problem. I would have hoped, Mr. Speaker, I would have cooperation to do that and to help those disadvantaged Manltobans rather than the doctors' union. MPIC Complaints Received Mr. Jame• Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Publlc Insurance Corporation (Mr. Cummings). At the committee meeting this morning, under some close questioning , senior officials at MPIC were asked how many complaints or inquiries came into the offices of the corporation last year.

The answer, Mr. Speaker, was 80,000-not 8,000, not 18,000, but 80,000 . On further examination, that represents an increase of about 30,000 Inquiries from the previous year. I 2658

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 wonder if the Minister could tell the House how many inquiries or complaints his office has received about the operations of M PlC since he has become Minister. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minis ter responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): My office receives a conside rable number of inquiries from time to time. lt varies, and I would be unable to give him a precise number, but something that is of interest, Mr.

Speak er-and I think that the Members have probably deduced it accurately over a period of time, judging from the calls that they receive themselves -the majority of the calls that I have been receiving in the last six weeks have all been related to the $20 late payment fee. That is the one area, of course, that the corporation has already indicated that they are prepared to take some redirection for next year. Kopstein Recommendations Ombudsman Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): In his report, Judge Kopstein talks about the necessity of asking the Ombudsman and using other forms of mediation to ensure that individuals who are unhappy with the treatment or the service they receive from officials at M PlC have some recourse. Will the Minister tell us how he intends and when he intends to implement those recommendations of the report? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minis ter responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): The recom mendation of Judge Kopstein to use the Ombudsman much more extensively and give him more powers in relationship to MP IC than he presently has is a recommenda tion that we have indicated we wish to give some further consideration to. I answered this question in committee this morning, but allow me to repeat some of the reasons that we have done it in that manner.

No. 1, there are five re commendations related to the Ombudsman. lt would require, I believe, additional staff and certainly would have Treasury Board ramifications to that extent. The Ombudsman's Office is an office that I respect too much simply to make a decision and dump additional responsibilities into his office and I have written a letter which he will not have received yet, but I have written a letter to him asking him to apprise me of his tho ughts and concerns reg arding these recommendations.

Thirdly, there are other models that we can look at to determine if there are other ways that can be used to make sure that there is a court of last resort for those who feel that they have not been well-treated by a Crown corporation. M PlC Annual Public Meetings Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): In light of the fact that 80,000 separate inquiries, many of them complaints, have been forwarded to MPIC and that among the 27 recommenda tions of the Kopstein Repor t already accepted by this Minister is to withdraw the annual meeting with MPIC, at which time Members of the motoring public can tell the corporation through its senior officials what its frustrations are, will the Minister today reverse his position and offer those annual meetings to the people of Manitoba who want to communicate their frustration about MPIC? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): There are several avenues by which the corporation will be out and having public discussions and opportunity for the public to meet. There are several other recommendations from the judge where they will be meeting with the tradespeople in public meetings, where they will be meeting with other people regarding the repair industry and how they relate to the corpora tion.

If we wait until the new Bill rega rding public accountability of Crowns is introduced, you will see that there are ways and means in there in which we can enhance the ability of the public to communicate with the corporation. I would like to add one last comment.

Not to downplay in any way the amount of complaints that M PlC receives; the numbers are large, they are too large, and it is my goal and it is certainly the goal of the corporation that they be reduced, but let us remember that the number that the Member is using is the number of calls that come in on the customer relations line and, as the Member asked this morning, we will be getting a further breakdown of those numbers in relationship to how many of them are complaints and how many of them are information-related. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I find it interesting that the Liberal Party, which opposed The Crown Accountability Act, is now criticizing the Government for taking away the public meetings, meetings they never supported. Bill No. 33 Immediate Enactment Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My question is in regard to the increasing concern in Manitoba over layoffs and plant closures as a result of the slowdown in the economy that has taken place over the last number of months and also because of the impending impact of the Free Trade Agreement.

Specifical ly, I would like to reference the 470 jobs that are going to be lost, 470 people are going to be without work because of the Wescott Fashions layoff. I recently introduced Bill No. 33 which would improve protection for workers affected by plant closu res and layoffs .

My question to the Minister of Labour is: will the Minis ter and this Government sup port the immediate enactment of Bill No. 33 to ensure that the emplo yees at Wescott Fashions will have the availability of the increased notice provisions, the severance pay, the provision for a job search leave, and also the ability to buy the company that is part of Bill 33 tha t was introduced recently in this House? 2659

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 Hon. Edward Connery (Mi nister of Labour): The situation at Wescott is a very tragic situation for 470 people. lt did not come about because we do not have (sic) free trade. lt is because we do not have free trade and we do not have adequate trade for these companies that we are finding some busi nesses failing. Wha t we inherited from the NDP Government with payroll taxes and a bad attitude towards business is the reason why we are having some of the problems. As the Minister of Labour, we are concerned. This morning, I had a meeting with my department officials.

They will be working with Emplo yment Services and with the federal Government to see, just in case this company does close, our Government, through the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst), is working very hard to ensure that this company does not close and that we do not lose the 470 jobs, but our committee will be in place to ensure that these people are looked after. Mr. Ashton: The Minister did not answer my question. I asked him, and perhaps I will ask it in this context. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Ashton: Has the Minister read Bill 33? Will he be supporting the provision? Mr .

Sp eaker: Order , pl ease; order, please. The Honour able Member knows that we cannot demand an answer. We do not make reference to such answers. The Ho nour able Memb er for Thompson, with a supplementary question. Mr. Ashton: I am not concerned about whether I get an answer. I am concerned about the 470 emplo yees involved. I asked the Minister: has he read Bill 33? Will he support the provisions in Bill 33; and, further, will he ensure that this Bill is enacted as soon as possible so the Wescott Fashion workers will have the benefits of the protection in this Bill? Mr.

Connery: There will be some time very soon to discuss Bill 33. The Members opposite will have the chance of this Government to get our views on it. But our concern is the 470 workers at Wesc ott. Not only Wescott, Mr. Speaker, there are hundreds of people in this province. As the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus) brought up, a company that is having trouble, not a company that was having trouble because they are in free trade but a company having trouble because they do not have adequa te trade. lt is a very simpl istic answer with trade.

We will ensure that people like at Wescott, 470 people, and the 50 people that the Member for St. Norbert brought up, that is how we will attempt to ensure that all Man itobans will have a job and a good job. So, Mr. Speaker, that is the role of our Government. * (14 10) Immediate Enactment Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Thompson, with a final supplementar y question. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): My question is to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Cummings). Since the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Cannery) has, within his rights, I suppose, as a Member of the Legislature, refused to answer my question, will the Deputy Premier commit this Government to do something for the 470 workers and ensure the immediate enactment of Bill No. 33? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have reminded the Honourable Member for Thompson. I have reminded you on two other occasi ons. Now would the Honourable Member for Thompson kindly rephrase his question? We do not make refe rence to either receiving or not receiving an ans wer. Mr.

Ashton: My question to the Deputy Premier was: will he, in his capacity as Deputy Premier, ensure that Bill No. 33, which incidentally will be introduced for second reading as early as today, will be enacted by this Government? They can sponsor it if they want. I am not concerned about who gets the credit for it. I am concerned about the 470 workers. Will he support Bill 33? Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. In addition to giving his impressions of the quality of the answers, the Honour able Memb er for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) proceeds to ask the same question three times in a row. We have rules in this House about oral questions being repetitive too, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Government House Leader, but I asked the Honourable Member to kindly rephrase his question. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker , I am asking, on behalf of the workers involved, whether the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Cummings) will commit this Government to ensuring that their expanded layoff provisions, severance pay provisions, job search leave and the ability to buy the comp any, all of which are provisions in Bill No. 33, will the Government introduce those kinds of measures on behalf of workers such as the Wescott Fashion workers? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, we will assure the Members opposite that as a Government tha t is responsible and acting in a responsible manner, we will do everything possible to make sure that the viable jobs are kept in this province.

The Members opposite do not seem to have li stened too well yesterday when the Premier (Mr. Filmon) indicated that Wescott Fashions presently had someone who was actively pursuing the continuing operation of that plant. If that should come to pass, then we have something far more important than lay-off guarantees. We have jobs. 2660

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 Native Health Care Services Offered Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey). One of the roles of the Minister and his department is to advocate on behalf of aboriginal people on northern issues. What actions has he taken to facilitate the development of culturally appropri ate health care deliv ery such as, for example, the proposal made to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) by the Swampy Creek Tribal Council? Hon. James Downey (Minis ter of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, let me assure the Member opposite and the House that I have and the department has done everything possible to try to make sure that the health needs, the cultural needs, the educational needs are being addressed. I have to say there has been somewhat a lack of that in the previous years by the former administration- not near enough attention paid to the concerns and the needs. We are now trying to catch up and address those matters. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Minister of Finance (Mr. Ma nness), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Ma jesty , with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gil leshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Education; and the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr.

Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Health. * (1 440) CONCURRENT COMMIT TE ES OF SUPPLY SUPPL Y-EDUCA TION Mr . Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: I would like to call this meeting to order to discuss the Estimates for the Department of Education. We are on

section 2. Statutory Boards and Comm issions (

a) Teachers' Retirement Allo wances Fund $26,5 14,4 00.00. Shall the item pass? The Honourable Minister of Education. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): Yesterday we took several items as notice. I had indicated that we would get this information back for the committee. Unfortunately , because of the fact that a lot of the information has to be pulled from a variety of sources, we are not able to table the information right at this moment. I would ask the patience of the committee. 2661 We will table it on Thursday or tomorrow, if Estimates go tomorrow.

Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): I just have, I think, basically one question. I hesitate to say that because sometimes one leads to two, it leads to three, etc., but basically one question. The figure that is represented there is util ized for salaries plus for expenses to those teachers in the province who have retired. Am I correct in making that assumption? Mr. Derkach: No, that figure represents only the pension payments that are made. That, I might add, is the Government's portion of the pension payments that are made. Mrs.

Yeo: So that Glen Buhr, who is the executive secretary of the Teachers' Retirement All owances Fund Board, his salary is paid for out of some other allotment? Mr. Derkach: All the administrative costs and the operating costs, including the salaries, are paid out of the teachers' portion of the contributions. Mrs. Yeo: Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minis ter of Finance): 1 have two questions to the Minister. First of all, has any attempt been made to forecast the appropriation dollar figure required under this resolution number for the next number of years?

Specifical ly, where will we be five years from now? You may have covered this yesterday but if you have not, I would appreciate some indication of that forecast. Mr. Derkach: This was mentioned yesterday, I might add. Staff are preparing those figures presently . We will be able to table that either tomorrow or Thursda y. Mr. Manness: In 1985, when the Legislature of that day was debating the early retirement provision without penalty, it became known at that time that the profile of the teaching profe ssion showed that there was an average age at that time.

I am really trying to think from memory, the average teacher was 39 years of age, I think. lt was just under 40, if I recall. The argument was made that early retirement would cause that average figure to move down and allow some new thoughts and some new energies to come in. Could the Minister of Education today indicate what the average age is of the profes sion? Mr. Derkach: According to our latest statistics, the average age of the teaching profession is 40. Mr. Manness: I then ask the Minister why that would be, given the fact that this was supposed to be one of the major thrusts behind this proposal?

Was there not that big of an uptake by people voluntarily retiring without penalty as was expected and indeed as some of us said, would not occur? Obviously, there has to be some reason for that.

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 Mr . Derkach: The overall numbers of teachers who have retired l.ave certainly increased. However , the numbers of teachers who are retiring, are taking early retirement in the total pool of teachers who retired, are small enough that it does not signif icantly affect the average age of the teachers that are in the work force. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): I appreciate that it will be difficult to get all of the information together which was requested last night.

I reiterate that I am hoping that the Minister will not only provide us with the information that was requested with respect to the concerns that had been expressed to him and to the Minister of Finance federally about the impending changes. Everything that he will identify for us, the concerns that had been raised to him by his colleagues or others with respect to the position that has been taken on this matter by both the Manitoba Teachers' Society and the Man itoba Organization of Nurses' Asso ciation, both of whom have some serious problems with the intent of the legislation and with its impa ct. Mr.

Chairperson, I had put on record last night my suspicion that the concern, both at the federal level and with some of the Minister's colleagues, was with respect to the revenue loss to the federal Government that, in particular , the reduction of the pension age from 60 to 55 had caused. I have, since last night, had an opportunity to read the remarks of both the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Labour, and it confirms for me the view that the federal Government has laid on the table their desire to reduce the earnings of teachers retiring through 1991 and beyond, to save money.

They have chosen to attack, if you will and perhaps that is too strong a word, the pensionable earnings of teachers and nurses and others as a way to reduce the cost to the Treasu ry. I find it lamentable that no one on the Treasury Bench and not the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) or anyone else has taken a stand in support of the teachers. I do not think it is fair. I do not think most Canadians view an attack on the pension earn ings of people retiring as the appropriate way to address the costs that Governments face.

They have other alternatives and they are spen ding billions on submarines and billions on tax loopholes, on $500,000 capital gains exemptions and all the rest of it. I think it is objectionable in the extreme to have these kinds of amendments come forward without consultation, without a real understanding of how they are going to impact on people. I think it is equally as frustrating and as unacceptable to have the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) not stand up and say enough is enough, as I believe it is his job to do. The Minister has given us all kinds of excuses why he has not done that.

I think from reading the comments of his colleagues it is quite clear why he has not done that, because he does not have any support amongst his colleagues for the concerns that teachers have express ed. I note with some regret that some of the Liberals in the Legislatur e, including the Member for Radisson (Mr. Patterson), have enunciated the same position. They are more concerned with balancing the books on the backs of teachers and nurses, and so forth, than they are on the merits of the case and the justice in it.

I am prepared to pass this item with the unders tanding that the Minis ter will answer the questions that have been asked in the next few days, prior to certainly the completion of the Estimates process. Mr. Chairman: Item 2.(

a) Teachers' Retirement Allo wances Fund- pass. Item 2.(

b) Other Statutory Boards and Commissions $30,000 -s hall the item pass? The Member for Sturgeon Creek. * (1 450) Mrs. Yeo: I again think I just have one question. The last time one went to two, so we will see. I am looking at the list of five other Statutory Boards and I just wanted to know, are all of these only activated by the direction of the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) or do they have standing dates for meetings? If so, how many times a year do they meet? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I will just go through them for the Member's sake. The Board of Reference meets only as required.

The Advisory Board meets once every two months. The Collective Agreement Board meets as required. The Arbitration and Conciliation Board meets as requested by schools boards or teachers' assoc iations, or bo th. The Certification Review Committee meets as required. Mrs. Yeo: I am not really asking another question. This is part of my first question, Mr. Chairperson. I think I asked when these committees last met. How many times in the last year? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the last mee ting of the Board of Reference was sometime in October. The next meeting will be on Novembe r 6th.

The Advisory Board met last on October 3. The Collective Agreement Board met last on October 12. The Arbitration Board and Conciliation Board of course meets on an ongoing basis. The Certification Review Committee met on October 3. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): I am still concerned, Mr. Chairperson, regarding the whole aspect of the unfunded liabil ity. Now we passed that but I still have a theoretical question here, and nominally , who actually employs teachers? Is it the school board that they work for or is it the provincial Government?

Mr. Derkach: The school boards employ the teachers. Mr. Laurie Evans: That is answer I was afraid I was going to get, because it concerns me that if the school 2662

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 board employs the teachers and you are dealing with an unfunded lia bility, then the responsibility for that unfunded liability is indirectly a provincial responsibility. But I think if you came down to the legal consequences of it, it is a school board's responsibility in terms of that unfunded liability . Is that correct or not? Mr. Derkach: The Province of Ma nitoba is a signatory to the Act and it is explained in The Teachers' Pension Act that that responsibility will stay with the province. Mr. Chairman: Item 2.(

b) Other Statutory Boards and Commissions-shall the item pass? The Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Storie: I do not intend to take a long time. Perhaps my colleague from Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) already asked. Has the Board of Reference been asked at this point to conduct any boundary review, and if so, have some monies been set aside to conduct such a review? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Cl'lairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Storie: No, Mr. Chairperson. The Minister indicated that no monies have been set aside. Has the Minister met with the Board of Reference to discuss, I guess, their concerns about boundaries?

Have they expressed to the Minister any concerns? Mr . Derkach: I have not met with the Board of Reference as yet, but certainly in the next little while, I intend to meet with them for a kind of an inauguration or a first-time meeting with them, because it is a new board that is in place. Mr. Storie: Are there any outstanding issues before the Board of Reference? Mr. Derkach: There are several outstanding issues that the board is dealing with presently. There is an issue at Turtle River, one at Gypsumville and one in St. Vital. Mr.

Chairman: Shall the item pass? (Agreed) Resolution No. 42: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exce eding $26,544,400 for Education, Statutory Boards and Commissions, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of Ma rch, 1989. Shall the item pass? (Agreed) Proceeding to Item 3. Financial Support - Schools. Provides financial support to School Boards and assistance to educational organizations. (

a) School Grants and Other Assistance $437,787,900-shall the item pass? The Honourable Minister. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I have a handout that I would like to have distributed at this time. The handout that is being distributed at this time is intended to be an aid in understanding this whole section. lt is a brief summa ry, an easy-to-read reference guide, so to speak, describing the current methods of funding and hopefully it will be of some help as we move through this particular section.

This is a booklet that is also distributed to the trustees or the school boards so that they have a better understanding of this fairly comple x area. Mrs. Yeo: In this area the various aspects of funding are outlined, so I assume that we can talk about such things as High and Low Incidence Funding and the level 1, 2 and 3. Again I would like to reiterate a comment that I made earlier, I believe, about the concern that has been raised by several school divisions with regard to the Low Incidence Funding. Now I think you call them level 1, 2 and 3.

Again I would ask the Minister for assurance that the committee that he has organized, the Ed. Finance Committee, will be looking at better ways of addressing the needs of the individuals in the school divisions who need to have extra funding for various handicaps, etc .. I am wondering if the Minister could tell us when he assumes that the Ed. Finance Review Committee will have comp leted their task. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, to the first concern with regard to the Low Incidence Funding, certainly that area will be addressed in the Ed. Finance Review.

As the Member points out, she had some concerns about it and certainly I think there have been some concerns expressed by myself with regard to the approach that has been taken. Therefore, this will be addressed in the Ed. Finance Review. The timing, Mr. Chairman, it is hoped that we will have comple ted the Ed. Finance Review by the end of the year. * (15 00) Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister tell us what thrust his department is having with regard to the aspect of mainstreaming? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, mainstreaming is certainly an important concept because we have heard from various groups about the importance of it. Certainly, in the main we believe that it is a positive step in trying to accommod ate as many students as possible into the regular school system. I can say that we are going to be addressing this whole issue in the area of the Ed. Finance Review as well. Mrs. Yeo: So that at this point in time the sort of philosophical belief of the department cannot be broadly stated.

What I am concerned about, is the department looking towards increasing the aspect of mainstreaming or are they looking more towards the segregated type of teaching or a combination of both, the side streaming aspect, if you will? Mr. Derkach: There is not a significant shift in terms of the concept in either moving toward or moving away from mainstreaming. As a matter of fact, the same approach is going to be taken that is presently in progress, and that is that we will mainstream as many students as we possibly can.

In situations where it is impossible to mainstream a child for one reason or another, the type of programming will be provided that in fact meets the needs of that child. If, for example, partial mainstreaming can take place with that individual 2663

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 child, that is the approach that we will be taking. Certainly, there is no intended appr oach to segregate children as was the practice before. Mrs. Yeo: So that if a parent who had a child with, let us say, Down's syndrome and the child was entering kindergarten, that child would have the option of attending the neighbourho od school if he or she was physically able to join in with the other students? Mr . Derkach: In general, this is the approach.

However it is still the jurisdiction of the local school board to make that decision as to whether it is the neighbourhood school that will be attended or whether there is a designated school in that particular area that can handle that particular student, because as you know, we do not have resources in each and every school to deal with all kinds of situations in this point in time. If there are in fact teachers and resource pe ople in a neighbouring school that are specialists, so to speak, in those areas and handling those kinds of situations, that is still a responsibility of the school board. Mrs.

Yeo: Wha t does the department see as the future for such schools as the Softley School, Kirkfield Park, Lord Roberts, etc., where there are some segregated students? Mr. Derkach: Over time, it is the hope and the intent that those very specialized schools or segregated schools such as the Softley School will diminish in their role in that the regular schools will have within them the capabilities of handling those situations which require segreg ation, but as much as possible, there will be an attempt to mainstream. Mrs. Yeo: I must say that I am certainly in favour of mainstreaming wherever possible.

However, I do also have some fear or some concern for the rights of the teaching staff. I can see that if you have one child in a class of, say, 20 who requires a great deal of individual ized attention, that this could be a very difficult situation in which a teacher finds himself or herself, and I am wondering what particular support services the Minister sees as being available to the teaching staff with the increased thrust of mainstreaming. Mr.

Derkach: That again is a local school board decision, and I guess each situation will differ because there will have to be an assessment of whether there is a requirement for special resource type people in that school or teacher aides or special supports for those students who have learning disabilities and handicaps.

We understand very clearly that we are putting much more pressure on teachers within the regular classroom to try and meet the needs not only of the students that are there on a regular basis but also those special needs students, so certainly we understand that those teachers will require some special supports to assist them with those heavy loads. I think, Mr.

Chairman, it is fair to say that today, even though the length of the school day is the same, we are demanding a great deal more from teachers because of the shift and the changes of society and the demands of society, but we will still maintain to attempt to move in the direction of mainstreaming as many students as we can. In those situations where we cannot mainstream, where it is impossible, special types of classrooms or situations will have to be established to take care of the needs of those individual students. Mrs.

Yeo: lt is my understanding from an explanation the Minister gave the other day that these Level 1, 2 and 3 support grants are block type of grants that go to the school divisions on a per student capita basis and that certainly has concerned me since hearing that statement. I would hope that the Ed. Finance Committee would look at this very carefully because if, for instance, one particular school division had several students who required additional assistance, I can see whereby the school division would run out of these grants very quickly,

whereas another school division may have far fewer. Is there any assistance available? Is there any sort of appeal type of format for school divisions who may find themselves with the need for additional hiring of educational assistance to help the teachers who may have children with mental or physical handicaps placed in their classrooms? Mr . Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I gu ess to clari fy someth ing, first of all, the block grant is only provided to the Level 1 areas. The Level 2 and 3 areas are still 6,600 and 13 ,250 or whatever it is. Is it 13 ,200? There is not an appeal mechanism as such, Mr. Chairman.

However, in areas where there is a specific need and it is identified, certainly, it is our responsibility and the respon sibilit y of the school divisions to provide, inasmuch as we humanly can, the kinds of supports that are required for that individual child. * (15 10) Mrs. Yeo: Does the Mini ster have the figure on the numbers of Level 1, the numbers of Level 2 and the numbers of Level 3 supported students? Mr. Derkach: Due to the change and the formula per se and because the Level 1 students are receiving a block fund, it is not possible to know the exact numbers of those students.

However, the Level 2, 838, and the Level 3, 12 0. Mrs. Yeo: Is there any thought or any effort made to plan for some form of in-services to the teachers in the province to assist them with the integration of handicapped students into the mainstream? Mr. Derkach: There are ongoing in-services throughout the province through the Child Care and Development Branch which cover all types of situations including the integration of the students into the regular classroom. Mrs. Yeo: Some school divisions, I believe, have special needs coordinators, and they may be called something 2664

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 different depen ding on what school divisions or from one school division to another. Is this something that the department has encouraged or do you just stay away and let the individual school division attack the issue in their own fashion? Mr. Derkach: At present, there are 46 school divisions in the province tha t have coord ina tors and the remainder of the school divisions who do not have coordinators are given services through Child Care and Development. Mrs.

Yeo: I must admit, and it is something I regret, I am not as familiar with the rural set-up with the handicapped students that might want to access the rural schools. Can the Minister tell me if there is any sort of special needs individual who can go out to the rural area and assist school divisions that may have a few students that might need assistance out in the rural setting? Mr. Derkach: Every school division tha t has a coordinator is encouraged to do so through a grant that is provided to the school divisions of 34,500.

Secondly, through the Child Care and Development Branch, we have personnel who do go out to the school divisions within the province to assist with those special needs students where those special needs are identified. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, if I could just correct that. Instead of 34.5, that was 34 .1-3 4,10 0 instead of 34,500. Mr. Chairman: I wonder if Honourable Members carrying on a private discussion could withdraw to the back. Mrs. Yeo: The $3 4, 10 0, am I correct in assuming that that amount is available one grant per school division should they wish to hire a special needs coordinator?

Is that what you are saying? Mr. Derkach: Yes, that is correct. Mrs. Yeo: I did not know that. Thank you. If I can ask a couple of questions with regard to Small Schools. Under the words "Small Schools," there are two words "formula change." May I ask what that means? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, that formula change refers to a change that was made this year with respect to the cutoff between a small school and what is not a small school. At one time, if you had one more student than the magic number, you did not qual ify for a grant under the Small Schools Program.

What has been done is there has been sort of a curving out of the enrollment so that those schools who still have small enrollments and are not considered large schools can still receive some funding for small schools. Mrs. Yeo: Is there a figure, a certain number of students that is in a formula, so to speak, that will identify what is a small school per element ary, junior high and high school? Mr. Derkach: Yes, and if I could refer the Member to page 6 of the handout, No. 8 which refers to the Small School Support, and where it says, "Is lesser of the cost of small schools programming or the total of (a), (

b) and (

c) provided that the enrollment of those grades that quali fy for support is greater than 15 percent of the school's total enrollment." I think that if the Member would want to take a look at that, it certainly is explan atory. If she would like me to explain that step by step, I can do that as well. Mrs. Veo: I have got comments and questions made beside that and thank you for drawing that to my attention. I have one specific small school that I received a note-regarding a school in the Morris-MacDonald School Division. Apparently there is a school at Oak Bluff where there are 34 pupils in two classes.

There is a Grades 1 and 2 class, and then there is another class with Grades 3, 4, 5, and 6; 34 students in the two classes. The concern there was that the Small Schools Grant does not provide enough money for an extra teacher and that in fact some of the parents are considering pulling their childr en out of that school which would obviously result in school closure. lt was my understanding that the Small Schools Grant was set up specifically to address concerns such as these. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the Small Schools Grant was really not designed to pay totally for the salary position.

If you apply the formula to that particular school, it may result in a Small Schools Grant, but certainly it not large enough to be able to support the cost of a teacher. Nevertheless, it is a formula that is applied equally to all schools who find themselves in the same size relatively speaking as the Oak Bluff School. * (15 20) Mrs.

Veo: Am I led then to understand that the grant would be given to a particular school division that applied for the grant for a specific school, listing the numbers of students who were in that particular school, or perhaps more than one school in a school division, and then it is up to the individual school division to apply that grant in whatever way they wish to apply it. If they choose to have itinerant teachers, perhaps that is one method.

If they choose to have some sort of technological education setup, computer assisted instruction or whatever, if they want to have mobile units, reading vans moving from place to place, in service, whatever, the school division then selects how they want to use that particular grant? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr.

Chairman, the grant that is provided for small schools is what is termed as school specific, in that that grant must go to that school and that school must identify how it is going to spend that grant. lt cannot be used by the school division in another area. lt is what is termed, I indicate again, as a school specific grant. Mrs. Veo: So then instead of it being administered by the school division per se, it is basically a principal administered grant. The principal of the specific small 2665

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 school would decide how he or she chose to utilize those funds? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I guess the physical accou nting and the handling of the grant could be done through the central accou nting of the school division. Nevertheless it goes to the credit of that particular school and it is the school that make s the decision, how that money is going to be spent within that school. There are criteria that have to be followed. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, a number of questions in this area.

I guess the first one, I would like some background on the total spending here that is being provided to schools. There are three components at least to the support that is provided to public schools, the Education Support Levy, the Special Levy, and General Revenue. I would like a breakdown from the Minister as to what proportion each of those areas contribute to the total overall spending? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, if we could ask the Member to go on and we will find the exact numbers for him in just a few moments, but certainly we can get the accurate numbers for him. Mr.

Storie: Perhaps, if we are going to get that information, we could have some review of, say, the '87 and '88 years. I would like to be able to see what ch anges, the funding for Educ ation has been restructured in terms of what comes from the Education Support Levy, what comes from Special Levy and what comes from General Revenue. Those comparisons would be, I think, useful. Also, in the same vein, I would like to know from the Minister how the range of special levies applied across the province have changed from '87 to '88.

The range in 1987 and previously was 38-point-some mills and I would like to know what that change has been from year over year from '87 to '88. Mr. Derkach: The range in 1987 was 28.4 mills, 1988 was 30 .1 mills, and if I could go back to the last question that I said we would find the specific response in terms of the percentage of revenue from property and consolida ted revenues, it is 42 percent from Property and 58 percent from other Consolida ted Rev enue. Mr. Storie: When the Minister says that it is 42 percent from Property, is that from both Special Levy and ESL? Mr. Derkach: Yes, that is correct. Mr.

Storie: Does that include the tax rebates, the 58 percent? The tax credits, are they- Mr. Derkach: No, it does not include the tax credit. * (15 30) Mr. Storie: Just so I am clear on what numbers we are working with, the 42 percent and 58 percent are 2666 a percentage of the $437 million as referenced in the Estimates Book? Or is that represe ntative of the total expenditure on the part of the province in Education? Mr . Derkach: lt is the percentage of the Consolid ated or the $452,845,900.00. Mr .

Storie: I am too long out of the Education Estimates to remember exac tly what is added to this figure to represent the total contribution to Education from Property and General Revenue, but it seems to me the ESL has to be added on. Mr. Derkach: That is right. Mr. Storie: Is that correct? Mr. Derkach: Yes. Mr. Storie: Could you provide us with that figure? What is the ESL contribution? Mr. Derkach: $206.3 million. Mr. Storie: Just for my own understanding, the 42 percent of that $437.7 million comes from the Special Levy then? Mr. Derkach: The 42 percent is of $924,895, 1 70.00. Mr. Storie: I am sorry.

I was misinformed because I had asked that question previously and was told that it was from the $437 million. The $437 million then, could we have a breakdown of how much of that comes from Special Levy and how much comes from General Revenue? Mr. Derkach: The $437,787,900 is all from Consolidated Revenue. Mr. Storie: So if we added up the ESL and the General Reve nue and subtracted from the 900-and-what figure? Mr. Derkach: The total expenditure is $924,895,1 70.00. Mr. Storie: If I subtracted those two figures, I would have the contribution of the Special Levy across the province? Mr.

Derkach: I have to indicate to the Member that also includes capital. Mr. Storie: Aha! I am very glad that I did not comment on how gratified I was to see that the actual percentage of support to education from property was declining because normally we have not included capital in that overall calculation. Could we have the specific figure for the Special Levy? Is that the one that is difficult to achie ve? Mr. Derkach: The specific figure for the Special Levy is $208,52 7,5 1 9.00. With regard to the percentage of increase or decrease I have to indicate tha t the percentage has been dropping consistently.

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 Mr. Storie: So what the Minister is saying is that the percentage of reliance en property has actually been dropping over the last few years. Mr. Derkach: That is correct. Mr. Storie: Contrary to the assertions of some people to the contrary, I think that is an interesting statistic. I thank the Minister for that. Just in general policy terms, just to move away from the specifics of the funding, I am wondering whether the Minister is concerned about the increase in the 19 88-89 year of the Special Levy mill rate range?

Does the Government have a policy with respect to the mill rate range? Mr. Derkach: I guess, over the years, there has been an intent to narrow that range or decrease that range. Certainly, that has been occurring except there has been a slight increase and this has caused some concern. This is probably a contributing factor for the need for the Ed. Finance Revi ew. Mr. Storie: The Minister is going to have to explain that because 1 am not sure. Is the Minister saying that is not a valuable objective?

Should we not have people contributing more or less equally across the province in terms of the tax on property in support of education? I would assume that we were headed in the right direction when we were narrowing the range. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, if the Member was following my remarks, I said that in the last year there has been an increase and consequently some concern and a contributing factor to the need for the Ed. Finance Review. Mr. Storie: So the Minister is in agreement if I said that the objective would be to narrow the range provincially of Special Levy mill rates.

The Minister would be in agreement with that general direction. Is that fair to say? Mr. Derkach: Yes, that is certainly an objective that one cannot argue with. Mr. Storie: I am glad to hear that no one could argue with that, because certainly school divisions have taken some exception to a policy which saw that range red uced, particu larly school divisions who had intentionally kept their Special Levy mill rate low. I am sure the Minister will be receiving some argument that policy has penalized some divisions.

I am not saying 1 accept that argument, but I am sure he will be receiving that argument. 1 was going to ask the Minister as well whether we could possibly have the total capital for the '88-89 year outlined? Mr. Derkach: That is covered in (XVI) 8.(b)(2). However, I would like to respond to the comments that were made by the Member for Flin Flon, and that is that certainly we are not going to penalize those school divisions, who have practised efficiency and have been prudent in the way that they spend money. If the Member thinks that is what our intent is, he is certainly out to lunch.

I would have to indicate that we want to reward, as a matter of fact, and certainly it should be an attitude of everybody to reward those school divisions who do practise effi ciency in the way that they expend their funds. So certainly it is not a matter of saying, for those of you who spend wild ly, go ahead, and we will just move everybody's mill rates up to match yours. That is not the goal of the intended Ed. Finance Review. The Member also asked for the ballpark figure in the capital, and it is $19 ,926,900.00. Mr. Storie: We have a ballpark figure for each of the three areas.

I am wondering what the surplus was from '87 to '88 of the ESL. If my memory serves me correctly, every year we estimate how much the Public Schools Finance Board is going to recover through the ESL. Because there is additional property coming on to the tax rolls in various municipalities in the city, we actually get more money than we anticipated. What was that cushion this year? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the budge ted amount is $6.9 million. Mr.

Storie: So there was an additional $6.9 million ava ila ble to spend on education because of the difference between the original estimate and what was actually on the tax rolls and what the Public Schools Finance Board received? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Chairman. lt is taken out of the accumula ted surplus over the years. lt is not a one year surplus per se. Mr. Storie: I recognize that there is money left in that fund, that it is not all used, but every year there is some additional amount beyond what is estimated. The $6.9 million would represent what? Two-thirds, three quar ters of that?

Was additional reve nue generated this year because of extra property on the tax rolls? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, again a ballpark figure, the $6.9 million represents something like three-quarters of the figure of last year. Mr. Storie: Perhaps this is not a fair question, Mr. Chairp erson, but what was the increase in General Revenue contributions from 19 87-88 to 19 88-89? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, it was 3.8 percent. * (15 40) Mr. Storie: Roughly $15 million? Mr. Derkach: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Storie: Does that include-and again I am uncertain about whether that includes the $6.9 million that comes about as a result of surplus in ESL. Mr. Derkach: No, it does not. 2667

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, moving to the question of the Education Finance Review Committee, when was the last time that commi ttee met? Who are now members of that committee? Who leads the committee? Mr.

Derkach: There is an internal interdepartmental committee which is made up of Municipal Affairs, Agricultur e, Finance and Education, which meets on an ongoing basis and has had several in-services now with representatives from the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, Manitoba Association of Busi ness Offi cials, Ma nitoba Association of Sch ool Superintendents, Ma nitoba Teachers' Society. Our last meeting with this organization was October 19. Mr. Storie: One other question that was not answered was who is chairing that currently. Was the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) as well part of this group?

Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the Urban Affairs Department is a part of this committee. The committee is jointly chaired by the Department of Municipal Affairs and the Department of Education. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, the Minister mentioned a number of groups that are involved in the seminars. Were groups like the Man itoba Association of Urban Municipalities and the Union of Manitoba Municipalities involved? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Through Municipal Affairs and through the assessment reform approach, they have been involved. Mr.

Storie: I am wondering whether in this review we have moved to the point of putting on the table a new concept for funding educa tion. Ha ve we moved anywhere from tinkering with the GSE, ESP, to something new for Manitoba. Has that been addressed yet? Mr. Derkach: Certainly, there have been many thoughts and ideas put on the table, and we are getting responses from the various organizations. In terms of putting a definitive formula on the table, that has not happened yet because certainly we want to have as much input as we can from the outside organizations in terms of their views on Ed.

Finance and their perceived approach . Mr. Storie: Just a couple of other small questions, I will be jumping a bit from place to place. The first question is in the support package that was tabled in the Legislature August 26, the Minister notes on page 2 a number of changes. One of them is a 10 percent cap on the increases available on a per-pupil basis to divisions who are using the 1985 Government Support to Education Program. Were there any divisions who would have required more than a 10 percent increase on the basis of that program? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, I think about two school divisions would have required that. Mr. Storie: Could we have the names? Mr. Derkach: One school division being St. Vital, and the other one Frontier School Division. Mr. Chairman, if I could explain that, that is on a preliminary basis, because once we receive their fina ncial statements, we will better be able to know whether in fact that is the case. Mr. Storie: The Minister is saying that the question of whether in fact they required more than 10 percent was based on their es tima te and we will know subsequent ly.

I am wondering whether the Minister had an opportunity to meet with either of these two divisions individually to discuss their circumstances. Mr. Derkach: I have not met with either of those school divisions to discuss specifically that problem. However, I have met with Frontier School Division and I have not met with the St. Vital School Board, nor have they raised this issue as being a concern that they want to meet about at this time. Mr. Storie: Moving to another area, my colleague from Sturgeon Creek talked about the new guideli nes for High and Low Incidence Funding.

If I understood the Minister correctly, Level 1 is the only level which is, in effect , block funding or categorical funding. I guess block funding is a better term. Has the Minister had any discussions with the Special Ed. Coordinators' Association with respect to the necessity of having categorical funding, targetted funding for Levels 2 and 3? Has there been any discussion of amalgamating the special needs support and allowing divisions the flexibility of providing personnel and programming sort of on an as-needed basis? Mr.

Derkach: I have not met with those specific organizations or associations, if they have one, but certainly I have talked to a variety of school divisions. Certainly in talking to members across the province who are either trustees or who have some interests in Special Ed., this situation has been discussed. But in terms of meeting with a specific group, Mr. Chairman, no, we have not done that. Mr.

Storie: If I recall the argument-and I can assure the Minister there is such a group-the arguments were that the school divisions have become much more sophis ticated about the del ivery of special needs programming than they were 10 years ago. As late as 1980, there was virtually no special needs programming in most of the divisions and, since that time, there has been a major expansion and the number of dollars that have gone along to support have increased along with the identified need.

I guess the question was whether the very tightly scripted programming, tightly controlled way of handling individual needs is appropria te anymore. We have the department intimately involv ed in developing individual education plans for students with multiple handicaps, and those who are profoundly handicapped get Levels 2 and 3 funding. I am wondering whether the Minister is getting any feedback that it may be time in fact for the department to pull back, provide resources rather than the kind of administrative support that seems to be part of the process now. * (15 50) 2668

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 Mr. Derkach: The change in the funding formula certainly provided a greater degree of flexibility for school divisions and allo wed school divisions to better utilize the resources that were available. The other thing that happened with the change was that there was a greater amount of money available to those school divisions in terms of the studen t-teacher ratios. However, it is still an area that there is some concern about and one that is going to be addressed in the Ed. Finance Review.

I cannot tell the Member at the present time what type of formula will evolve, whether in fact it will be the same, whether there will be some modification of it. I can appreciate the fact that there was in the old formula an extreme amount of human energy expended in negotiating whether or not a particular child fit a particular program, and certainly it did not seem as though enough energy was going into actually delivering the program for the child. So certainly there was a need and, as we proceed through the Ed.

Finance Review, this area certainly will be one that will be zeroed in on and, hopeful ly, effective changes will be made so that program ming can be deli vered in the most effect ive way to ensure that the child gets the maximum amount of resources for programming. Mr. Storie: I am glad the Minister raised that point because that is the counterbalance, if you will, to the block funding arrangement.

Certainly, we would like to have them have flexibility so they can organize their progra mming in the most efficient way, but I think there is an equal concern on the part of parents that funding that is targeted for special needs actually show up as special needs programming.

I am wondering whether the Minister has made any firm decision on the necessity for legisla tive statute changes, changes to The Public Schools Act, whether he is considering or will consider the introduction of amendments to The Public Schools Act requiring the involvement of parents in placement decisions and progra mming decisions because that, it seems to me, would be the balance. There are many out there that would argue that simply block funding for special needs would be counterproductive because the divisions would end up tapping those funds for some other purpose. That is not something we want to happen.

If we are going to go block funding, which I think allo ws for flexibility and probably a more eff ective use of the dollars, then the only assurance that the parents can have that the dollars are being spent is if they have some sort of parallel recourse through legislation, more than likely , to demand, to request, to have as a right, programming for their children. I am wondering whether the Minister is considering that balance, because I think it would be a severe mistake to move farther along the road of block funding without that balance. Mr.

Derkach: Certainly the Member for Flin Flon, after having been in Government for six years, finally realizes the importance of parental input and parental information that should exist in the school system. We have certainly had a fairly significant lobby by parents who claim that they have not been able to have access to information or have been able to participate totally in the development of a program for their child, especially those parents who have children with special needs.

Yes, we are considering that whole area of making sure that parents have appropriate information on their children, that information is timely and that they in fact have some input into the way that programming is developed for their children. Mr. Storie: I certainly do not need to be reminded of the importance of parents in this process. The Minister probably knows, although he would be loath to admit in a forum like this, that the previous Minister did actually commence developing policies with respect to placement and parent involvement. lt is not a new found interest at all.

In fact, as a teacher and educator and someone involved in the school syst em, I believe in it as a fundamental right. However, we will leave those arguments for another forum. The question that needs to be left finally is, the Minister mentioned that there had been increases in funding for special needs this year. Strictly from the province, what is the comparison between the '87 and '88 years for special needs funding, not counting what the divisions put into it? Mr. Derkach: The increase in spending over last year is estimated at some $4 million in grants to school divisions. Mr.

Storie: Could we have the base so that we can understand $4 million in comparison to what- Mr. Derkach: In 1987, the number was $38, 961 ,200; in 1988 it is $42,965, 145.00. Mr. Storie: Moving on to another area, the Early Identification Support program, I gather, and this may go back before either of our times, was partly to offset the fact that

section 41(

q) of The Public Schools Act which was passed back in 1977 or '75 was never proclaimed. I am wondering how many school divisions receive funding for the Early Identification Support Program. What divisions are those and have there been any changes over last year in terms of the divisions that are participating in that program? Mr. Derkach: The number of school divisions that are receiving grants for early identification, I can say that all school divisions are receiving some money for early identification. The amount of money, the grand total, has not changed in that it is the same amount as it was in 1987.

All school divisions are receiving it. Mr. Storie: I guess the Minister could indicate how much is being received? Mr. Derkach: The total amount is $250,000.00. Mr. Storie: Obvi ously, that is not enough money for probably a singl e division to conduct a complete preschool scree ning program. I am wondering whether the Minister is aware of how many divisions are currently cond ucting any thing close to a comprehensive prescreening program for school children. 2669

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, we could do this in two ways. Either I can have staff prepare a list of the school divisions that are doing some thing. I am aware of many school divisions who do a prescre ening, but certainly we could get that back to the Member with the specifics under (XVI) (

e) or perhaps tomorrow or Thursday, I could get back with the figures. Mr. Storie: I am not in a hurry for that information, but as long as we get it some time, if we can get it over the next few days. One other question before I pass it over to my colleague from Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo). The Inner City Education Support Program, the Minister made an announcement, I believe, of some additional support to the Winnipeg School Division. Can the Minister indicate what support has been added? Mr. Derkach: Within the program, the Winnipeg School Division gets $1. 9 million and in Special Support it gets $2 million.

Mr. Storie: The $1. 9 million comes directly from the Inner City Education Support Program and the $2 milli on is Exceptional Support. Does that represent any increase, any change over the previous year? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Chairman, there is no increase in that. lt is the same as it was in the previous year. * (16 00) Mr. Storie: A final, final question. The Minister has indicated tha t the goal now in terms of ov erall educational support coming from the province is 80 percent. That is the goal.

I am wondering how that squares with the desire on the part of the Minister to minimize the range of special levies between divisions. I am wondering if the Minister can square those two positions because unless there is some way to reduce educational expenses that I have not seen, it seems to me that position is ultima tely going to mean that some divisions are going to continue to expand their spending. The range is going to get wider and the equality of educational opportunity across the province is going to go backwards rather than forward. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, I guess that sort of can be handled through the Ed. Finance Review because the Ed. Finance Review will address some of that, certainly not all of it, and if we are going to get to 80 percent funding, that will mean that the province will have to inject greater funds. Consequently , the school divisions' responsibility will go down. The way that we arrive at that will certainly be heavily dependent on the approach that is taken in the new Ed. Finance Review . Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, we will leave it at that.

I do not think it is very easy to square those two positions, but we will let the Minister certainly have a go at it. lt is a difficult problem. The other question I had was with respect to the private school funding. Out of that $437 million, does funding to private schools come out of that $437 million? Mr . Derkach: Yes, it is part of the $437,787,900.00. Mr. Storie: The Minister had indicated earlier that there was that some $11 million at this point.

Perhaps the Minister could extrapolate and provide some ballpark figure for the cost to the public if that commitment to move to 50 percent is achieved , and some again further extrapolation and give us some figures on what that might cost the province in a year if we move to the Liberal goal of 80 percent financing? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to reflect on what the Liberal promis es were and how much that was going to cost. I think the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) can figure that one out for himself. With regard to the cost this year, it is $1 0,805,672.00.

If we want to project to 50 percent, it would be approximately $3 million more. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, that figure means that we are spending now about $14 million. In my own ballpark figure we would talk about probably close to $100 million over four years if we were to move to 80 percent immediately. Mr. Derkach: Just to correct the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), we are spending closer to $11 million than we are to $14 million presently. lt is $10,805,672.00. Mr. Storie: Mr.

Chairp erson , I recognize that but the Minister was projecting another $3 million if they move to 50 percent, which would make it $14 million or $15 million. My question is, is that commitment to move to 50 percent for next year? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the commitment, as the Member well knows, in the election campaign was that we would move to 50 percent within the first year of our manda te. Mrs. Yeo: A couple of questions on four or five different areas, and forgive me if I do a little page hopping here.

On page 3, at the bottom of the page, the $34,100, for one coordinator per school division, I gather, is li sted there, and at the top of page 4 there is another $3 1 ,000 for each remaining clinician. Can you tell me what is defined as a clinician? What would come under the term "clinician"? Mr . Derkach: Speech and hearing thera pists, psychologists, the reading clinicians, physiotherapists, social workers and occupational therapists. Mrs. Yeo: Any one of the above or would a school division be able to apply for several $3 1 ,000 packages, or how is this arranged? Mr.

Derkach: That is dependent on the formula that is stated in 2.(a), and certainly then the school division would determine the kinds of needs that it has in the school division to apply that grant towards the buying of services. Mrs. Yeo: The Level 2 and Level 3

definitions are located, but I could not find any sort of statement as 26 70

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 to what might be a definition of Level 1. I am wondering if the Minister could tell us what sorts of students would be classified under Level 1 need of funding. Mr . Derkach: Those are the students who have not severe learning disabilities but minor learning disabil ities compared to the Level 2 and 3. They are mildly disabled students who have learning disabilities. Now, that is, I guess, the whole problem when we face the old formula in that there was so much time expended in negotiating whether in fact this child fit into the Level 1 area or the Level 1 funding.

Now there is more fle xibility whereby those school divisions can identify on their own those students who have learning disabil ities and then can apply the funding based on the formula to assist those students who have those lea rning disabili ties. But in terms of specifically being able to quantify the definition, I think that is a little bit difficult. • (161 0) Mrs. Yeo: Yes, I can well recall the school division in which I was most closely involved having a lot of concern with the definition and who would be classified as an individual in need of additional funding.

However, I am also very aware of some parents who have grave concerns because their children are not getting what they perceive to be the additional help that might assist their children in achieving better success in school. I am thinking specifically of a mother who has two learning disabled children in Brandon. She, I believe, has taken one or both or her sons home and is trying to teach them at home because she is dissatisfied with the additional help that her boys are receiving in the school in Brandon. I am also aware of, I believe Ontario and Saskatche wan have a pull-out system for the teacher.

I realize that this would be very expensive, but if a child were placed in a classroom and that child needed a specific kind of education, the school would then send the teacher to a resource centre whereby that teacher would be given additional instructions as to how to deal with the specific type of learning disability that was experienced by the child under his or her care. I am wondering if there has been any thought towards this kind of addressing, if there might be perhaps even some cost saving in the long run towards this kind of addressing of dealing with childr en who have a learning handicap. Mr.

Derkach: Yes, I am happy to say that we have taken a look at alternatives as providing services to those handicapped childr en. We have taken a look at other systems outside the province where there is, as the Member indicated, a pull- out system or a different method of dealing with children with special learning disabil ities.

We are studying that whole program and certainly will be looking at how we can impl ement that kind of a program into our school system, at least if you wish, at a pilot level or one where we can monitor it to see how effec tively it is addressing the needs of those 2671 students who have special needs. I can say that I am aware of that mother who has pul led her children out of school. We have too many of those kinds of situations in the province where it appears that, for one reason or another, our school system is not capable or has not been able to address those specific needs.

I am not saying that is an inadequa cy of the school syste m. Certainly there is a problem there, and perhaps we have not been as innovative as we should be in terms of addressing those specific needs. I have instructed staff to take a very close and careful look at the other programs, or other programs that are offered in other jurisdictions to see whether or not we can impl ement them eff ectively and without too much turmoil to our system here so that we can better address the needs of those specific cases. Mrs.

Yeo: I certainly do not advocate that one should jump and try and establish a program that every parent feels would be right for their child. I think we certainly have to be very careful about the patient telling the doctor how to operate, so to speak. The teachers are the profess ionals, the educators are the ones who are trained to es tablish guidelines and to find the education appropriate settings for the students entrusted to their care.

But I do feel that we are somewhat lax in this province in developing a range of alternative programming for our students with the assistance of the teachers, of the school superintendents, educational support staff, etc. I think we could be doing something a little more effe ctive. We are not talking about the ill iteracy aspect right now, but I think that there is a bit of a difficulty, there is a difficulty in the school system in that we are perhaps in some respects, programming for ill iteracy. I think we have to be very conscious of that and the need for alternative programming.

The term "Individual Education Plan" is one that seems to be an in term, and we are hearing about the IEP with more and more frequency. Is there any sort of directive moving towards developing individual education programs for students in the classroom? Mr. Derkach: That is not in the approach that the department directed, but certainly we have had in the past and continue to have the types of models throughout the province which are based on IEP but it is not a push of the department to go in that direction.

Certainly, individual teachers and school divisions who find thems elves in a situation where that is an eff ective way to approach an educational program are at li berty to use that kind of a system and in many cases that is working very well. Mrs. Yeo: If I can just ask a couple of question on the English as a Second Language Program, are the ESL grants exclusive to children within the school division or is that a grant that encompasses the adult-educated individual as well? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the ESL grants here are specifically for childr en within the school system. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass?

The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek.

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 Mrs. Yeo: Where would then be located the grant that would be to assist the immigrant adult who is after English as a Second Language? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, it would be in (XVI) 5.(j). Mrs. Yeo: Ah, under PACE, okay. The Language Development Support for Natives, on page 5 in the particular handout, there is a 1 and a 2, and I am trying to find out what is different in the two of them. Oh, one is to a maximum and one is in excess of. Okay, I found it myself, thank you.

Is there any direction towards esta blishing some special grants or are there special grants for the northern and remote schools, as well as for the Inner City schools, whereby there might need to be additional funding for the education of the students who have more difficulties socioeconomical ly, who may come from homes where there is a higher rate of unemplo yment, where there might be a greater percentage of single parent fami lies, where there might be a higher percentage of public housing or supplementary rental units, where the students may come from a more difficult setting? * (16 20) Mr.

Derkach: There are several approaches, I guess, Mr. Chairman, one being the Compensatory Grants that are given out by the department. Secondly, there are the Northern All owances Grants and the Inner City Grants. Mrs. Yeo: So there are additional grants for the northern and remote schools to allow for provision for the isolatio n factor for the high er cost of li ving differentiation, etc.? Mr. Derkach: That is handled under the weighted enrollment aspect which gives them more resources. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Member for The Pas. � Mr.

Harry Harapiak (The Pas): I want to ask a few questions in the whole area of private school funding. Before I make my comments I want to share with the Minister that I was a trustee in the public school system and I have also sent a son through St. Vladimir's, so I am aware of the need for funding in both areas. I recognize that there is a need for a change in our system where we would maybe look at what the Saskatchewan system does. lt gives the parents of students the option of putting their taxes towards one system or another where their kids are attending. I was present at St.

Vladimir's annual event last Sunday where the parents of St. Vladimir's were having their tea, where the Minister made his comments. I thought they were appropriate comments addressing the parents of St. Vladimir's students. I did not quite understand your statement. You were concerned about the universal approach to the educational public school system. I did not understand what the Minister meant by the universal approach of the education system. Mr . Derkach: I really do not know what the Member is referring to in terms of funding.

I had indicated to the aud ience at the time that we were going to be moving to-w e are at 40 percent. Our commitment was to move to 50 percent funding to the private schools or independent schools within the first year of our mandate. Then we would be sitting down with officials from the independent schools to discuss aspects of funding such as greater accountability on their part to the department because of the greater funding. Also, they have some aspirations to move higher than 50 percent as well, so that we would be sitting down and discussing that whole area of the funding to private schools. Mr.

Harapiak: I understood the portion when you were speaking about the funding, but the portion I did not understand was when you first started your comments. You said that when you moved into the public education system that you were concerned about the universal, and I am wondering if you meant the humanistic approach that the public school system was moving in? Mr. Derkach: I do not know what that has to do with funding. Certainly, in the aspect of funding, I was not referring to any humanistic or-1 do not know what you are referring to. I am sorry. Mr. Harapiak: That is what I was wondering.

I did not understand either. That is why I was asking the question. Mr. Derkach: I can give you a copy of my notes. Mr. Harapiak: Okay. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Harapiak: There is one other area. The school in Easter ville is still going through some difficulties between the band-controlled school and the Frontier school system. I know there have been numerous efforts made by Frontier to try and bring the two sides of the community together to have one school system in there.

Are there any meetings being planned shortly to try and bring the two sides together and try to appr oach it from having a one school system? Because of the size of the community, they are not able to offer many options if they are going to be running separate school systems between the band and the Frontier schools. Are there any efforts being made by the department to try and resolve the difficulty that exists in Easterville? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, yes, I understand that this is still an ongoing situation at Easterville.

Next week, Frontier school officials are going to be meeting with the mayor and officials from Eastervi lle to discuss this very situation. Mr. Harapiak: Is the Department of Education able to help with the assessment that seems to be necessary for the community people to be convinced that the band school has imp roved the qu alit y of their education? Is there any expertise or personnel that they can supply to Frontier schools to help them do 2672

TUesday, November 1, 1988 a proper evaluation of the present system being del ivered there? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I guess the purpose of next week 's meeting is to discuss the issue of the assessment that has been done by the band of the programs tha t are being taught. Certain ly, the assessment indicates tha t ther e has been an improvement in the quality of education. There is a desire by Frontier and by the department not to be running two separate schools or two school systems in that small community. The desire is to resolve it.

Certainly, we understand the differences and that it is not going to be an easy task or one that can be resolved overnight. I think the communication aspect is an important one in trying to come to some common solution. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, just a couple of questions that I did not get a chance to pose in the last round. The first one was, of the total Government support to education, how much was provided to school divisions through the equalization program? Mr. Derkach: The total amount, Mr. Chairman, will be $1 12, 413 ,305.00. Mr. Storie: That is up from how much in 1987? Mr.

Derkach: That is an increase from $97,02 1, 223.00. Mr. Storie: The other area where I had some questions was in the area of mining reve nue being deducted from supportable expenditures, and I belie ve that is the way it was finally left. The contributions made by mining companies through grants in lieu of taxes was actually reduced from the supportable expenditures.

Could the Minister perhaps give us some numbers as to the support that was available to school divisions in 19 87-88 and 19 88-89 for the communities of Flin Flon, Snow Lake and Thompson -the division of Flin Flon, Snow Lake School District and Mystery Lake School Division? Mr. Derkach: In 19 87-88 the total program support in Flin Flon was $4,967,44 1; Snow Lake was $1 ,456,206; and Thompson was $12 ,250,648.00. You wanted '88- 89? Mr. Storie: 1988-89, but more specifically the total of the mining reve nue that was subt racted from the supportable expenditures.

I could use those figures for the '88-89, the figures that the Minister provided as well. Mr. Derkach: In 1987, the mining revenue for Flin Flon, $72 4,3 14; Snow Lake was $363,85 1; Lynn Lake, $82,300; and Mystery Lake $1,7 30,233.00. The 1988 figures for Flin Flon were $5,407,24 1; for Snow Lake $1, 517 ,669; Lynn Lake, $1,517 ,759; and Mystery Lake $1 2,994,55 1. 00. * (16 30) Mr. Storie: The projections that were used in terms of the mining grant in lieu of tax, or whatever it is called, how much mining support was anticipated from, in the '88-89 year? Mr .

Derkach: The figures that I gave the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) were used in the supportable expenditures for 1988 and the figures that were used for 1987 were as follows: Flin Flon, $669,556; Snow Lake, $261 ,000; Lynn Lake, $82,300; Mystery Lake, $1,64 8,1 32.00. Mr. Storie: We are back again. The figures you gave me originally were for this year, now we are moving back, so can I have those a little slower, I had to rearrange my table here. Thank you very much. Mr. Derkach: Are you ready? 19 86 Flin Flon, $669,556.00. Mr. Storie: Just round figures is fine. Mr .

Derkach: Snow Lake, $26 1 ,000; Lynn Lake, $82,000; Mystery Lake, $1,600,000.00. Mr. Storie: Thank you. The question is, on what basis are those escalated? How is it determined what the grant in lieu will be in a particular year? Is that a fixed number? I just forget how that is arranged between the community and the school division. Mr . Derkach: That is dete rmined by what the municipalities show within their budgets. Mr.

Storie: There seems to be a concern amongst some of those communities that the decision to subtract the mining reve nue from the supportable expenditure is going to create a problem in the coming year or the subsequent year, an unusual problem. I am wondering if the Minister could or staff could help the Minister identify what that problem is and what it is going to mean to those divisions that are receiving mining revenue. Mr. Derkach: At this time, we have had no indication of any problems from those communities and, sec ondly, this approach was done at the request of tho se communities.

So if they have any concerns, certainly we hope that we will hear from them. Mr . Storie: I am just wondering, because of the nature of the agreement between the municipalities and the companies, they are subject to change without any input from the Department of Education. I think that is where the problem lies, that those things, the amount that they receive can fluctua te quite dramatically.

Given that it was never explicitly put into the formula the way it is, I think there was some fear that adjustments may not happen, should there be adjustments in terms of the revenue that they receive from the municipality. Is that a reasonable description of a potential problem? Mr. Derkach: I guess it is somewhat of a hypothetical situation and certainly one that has not been addressed 2673

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 to us by those communities. However, I guess the only time you would have that kind of a problem exist is if there were a very significant drop in terms of the mining revenue and then the school expenditures did not drop accordingly. We know that does not happen. Your school expenditures may in fact not drop in tandem with the drop in mining revenue. Mr. Chairman, if I can conclude by saying that I have not been made aware that there is a concern by those communities to this point in time. Mr.

Storie: So if I could paraphrase it-not paraphrase but leave open the sugges tion tha t if some thing unexpected did happen in those communities and their mining revenue were to drop that they would be in a similar situation to what the St. James School Division was when the student enrollment dr opped, and yet the formula at that time could not adapt quickly enough to accommodate the pressures that the St. James Division felt.

I am just wondering whether I could assure people in those communities that in the event that there are dramatic changes that this Minister understands that revenue can change pretty drama tically and that the province would step in and leave them in a very difficult position with what are already very high Special Levy mill rates in those communities. Mr. Derkach: I think we have seen this similar kind of situation exist in several areas throughout the province where we had, for example, Native bands all of a sudden pull out of schools and do their own educating and all of a sudden the revenue dropped.

The school divisions were unable to adapt in terms of staff reductions as quickly. So we have seen that kind of a situation happen before. Although what the Member is talking about is very hypothetical and it is difficult to addr ess hypothetical situations, certainly if that should happen, I think it is incumbent upon the department to enter into discussions with those local school divisions to ensure that there is a sensible way of approaching the problem and settling it. Mr. Storie: Just one other question. The capital budget estimate ballparked at $19 million for the current fiscal year.

Could the Minister indicate (

a) whether there are any capital projects expected to be under way in this fiscal year in northern Manitoba, particular in Frontier School Division? • (1 640) Mr. Derkach: I could answer that question better when we get to that

section in (XVI) (e). Mr. Storie: A final question. The miscellaneous grants that are referenced here, have we received a copy of the grants? Mr. Derkach: Yes. Mr. Storie: Okay, so it is the same one that we have already received from the Teachers' Society and the Drama Association? Mr. Derkach: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Storie: A final question in the area of General Support Grants. That is the support to school divisions to offset except ional expenses for payrol l? Mr. Derkach: I seem to recall that same question being posed of a former Minister two years ago.

As a matter of fact, I think it was the Honourable Jerry Storie at the time that I had asked that question. He danced around it and would not answer it. I can tell him- Mr. Storie: lt just never sunk in what it was. Mr. Derkach: I can tell him that we will not dance around the issue but assure him that, yes, it is the payroll tax offset . Mrs. Yeo: lt sounds like I missed something a few years ago. The per pupil textbook grant has been reduced from $40 to $35 per pupil. Is that correct? Mr. Derkach: Yes, that is correct. Mrs.

Yeo: When I looked through the catalogue that we all received, I noted that in 1982-83, as an example, there was a textbook called Exploration of Busi ness that was then at a cost of $1 0.95. Today it is $1 7.45. The per pupil grant in 1982 was $30 per pupil. Today it sits at $35 per pupil and yet there is a fairly significant increase in the cost of the textbooks. There is a French textbook that today is sold for $9 and then was sold for $5.50.

Is the Minister going to make any move towards assisting school divisions that are having difficulty purchasing the textbooks with this rigid reduction in the textbook grant? Mr . Derkach: When we took office in April, and when I was sworn in as Minister on May 9, at that point in time, all school divisions across the province had already set their budgets. Therefore, they had adjusted for the decrease in the textbook grant. So therefore it would have been very difficult to try and adjust all budgets across the province to reflect the increase in the textbook grant again to the $40.00. Mr.

Chairman, I guess I have indicated in the House that I do not take this as a very prudent move in terms of reducing the textbook grant, because we know what is happening to textbooks, and certainly the examples that were shown by the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) are true and there are probably even more glaring examples of the situation. So I can indicate to the Member that in future we will be addressing this situation. Mrs. Yeo: Yes, I certainly could point out more glaring examples, but I did not think you wanted to go through all the notations that I made in the book.

I would be certainly pleased to share them with the Minister if he wanted to look at them. There was only one example where I found where a textbook had actually decreased from 19 82-83, the cost of it, and I was madly searching for it and could not find it. I thought only to be fair I should also indicate that, but I could not find it. 26 74

Tuesday, November 1, 1988 I understand that the difference has been transferred to Distance Education. I am wondering what sorts of gu idelin es the department has, or what sorts of

interpretation the department has as far as distance education is concerned. Mr. Derkach: I think it would probably be better if we handled those questions under Distance Education, which is (XVI) 4.(

g) Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? (Agreed) Item 3.(

b) Miscellaneous Grants $258,000-shall the item pass? The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs. Yeo: Just a minute. Now that is $283,000, right? Mr. Chairman: $258,000.00. Mrs. Yeo: Okay. Why the drop from 283 to 258? Mr. Derkach: There was an unallo cated amount in that grants listing and that was elimin ated in this particular budget. Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister tell me what organizations and what projects were fostered under this particular subappropriation? Mr. Derkach: I provided that list of organizations that receive those grants to the Members. Mrs. Yeo: Planned Parenthood was not on the list, was it?

Mr. Derkach: Yes, it was. Mrs. Yeo: May I ask the question- I am sorry, with all my mess around here, I do not have that package with me. lt is down in my desk. But I remembered Planned Parenthood and I remembered something specific about it. I am wondering if the Minister, as the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) has just said, would refresh my memory. Mr. Derkach: I think there were two areas that were asterisked: one was Planned Parenthood, and the other one was the Sexual Har assment Conference. Both of those were grants that�were pending at this time. Mrs.

Yeo: Can the Minister tell us what criteria there is for selecting the organizations that are sponsored here, and whether you have developed any other criteria for judging, how much they have enhanced the quality of education in our school divisions? Mr . Derkach: In most part, those were grants that were given previously. The way that is handled is that organizations apply for those grants to the Minister. Staff and the Minister assess the grant application and then that is forwarded to Cabinet and Cabinet makes the decision as to whether the organization will receive the grant. Mrs.

Yeo: Does the department take any measu res to ensure accou ntability to these particular organizations, or is that left entirely up to the individual school divisions? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, yes, the organizations are requested to give us an audited financial statement so that we can be assured that the monies are in fact expended wisely. Mrs. Yeo: Does the department have anything to do with the type of programming that is presented to the children in our school divisions under these particular organizations? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, I guess I should point out that these are not grants to school divisions. These are grants to organizations. Mrs. Yeo: But these organizations do present programs to the school divisions? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I guess there is a mix. In some instances, they do, in others they do not. If there is a request from the division, then certainly those organizations can provide programs for the schools. * (16 50) Mrs. Yeo: These organizations who are given grants may have plays that they put on- may they not? have pamphle ts that they develop, have speakers that they can provide.

Is that not what this is all about? Mr. Derkach: Yes, those organizations can be invited by the schools in the various communities that they operate to come into the schools and to give either performanc es or programs to that particular school. I can say that I met with the creative retirement group who, in fact, do go into the schools and talk to the students in schools about retirement, about old age, so that there is an understanding of the aging process and how senior citizens can contribute to society and can assist even the youth and the students in schools. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Item 3.(

c) General Support Grants, $14, 800,000-shall the item pass? The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs. Yeo: The statement there is "To provide special grants to school divisions to be utilized in pursuit of quality educa tion." I am wondering the definition of the word "special ." What do you mean by "special "? Mr. Derkach: That is a term that I guess has been in that particular category for some time. As the Member for Flin Flon indicated, that grant is to school divisions to offset the payroll tax. Mrs. Yeo: Oh, that is

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-69
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 69.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5fb10c1d6a3f40509778eff0cded95c813b93d9b

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