role="main" class="main-container container js-quickedit-main-content" id="main-content">

October 28, 2014

41st Parliament, 1st Session

< Previous sitting day

Next sitting day >

Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2014-Oct-28 (PDF)

L020 - Tue 28 Oct 2014 / Mar 28 oct 2014

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Tuesday 28 October 2014 Mardi 28 octobre 2014

Orders of the Day

Time allocation / Attribution de temps

Wearing of ribbons

Wearing of carnations

Introduction of Visitors

Oral Questions

Ring of Fire

Power plants

Privatization of public assets

Government consultants

Casino Thousand Islands

Environmental protection

Energy policies

Cancer screening

First responders

Long-term care

Pan Am Games

Long-term care

Small business

Child care

Nurse practitioners

Deferred Votes

Time allocation

Introduction of Visitors

Members’ Statements

Alice Munro Writers and Readers Festival

Automotive industry

City of Ottawa

Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada

Plentiful Harvest

Riding of Ottawa–Orléans / Circonscription d’Ottawa–Orléans

Jack Wilson

Violence against aboriginal women

Ted Reeve Community Arena

Introduction of Bills

Bible Baptist Temple(St. Thomas) Act (Tax Relief), 2014

Statements by the Ministry and Responses

Services for the developmentally disabled

Mining industry

Services for the developmentally disabled

Mining industry

Services for the developmentally disabled

Mining industry

Petitions

Alzheimer’s disease

Hispanic Heritage Month

Alzheimer’s disease

Physiotherapy services

Childhood apraxia of speech

Asthma

Multiple sclerosis

Ontario Retirement Pension Plan

Asthma

Credit unions

Automobile insurance

Alzheimer’s disease

Orders of the Day

Stronger Workplaces for a Stronger Economy Act, 2014 / Loi de 2014 sur l’amélioration du lieu de travail au service d’une économie plus forte

Time allocation

Child Care Modernization Act, 2014 / Loi de 2014 sur la modernisation des services de garde d’enfants

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

Time allocation / Attribution de temps

Hon. James J. Bradley: I move that, pursuant to standing order 47 and notwithstanding any other standing order or special order of the House relating to Bill 15, Bill 15,

An Act to amend various statutes in the interest of reducing insurance fraud, enhancing tow and storage service and providing for other matters regarding vehicles and highways, when the bill is next called as a government order, the Speaker shall put every question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the bill without further debate or amendment and at such time the bill shall be ordered referred to the Standing Committee on General Government; and,

That the Standing Committee on General Government be authorized to meet on Wednesday, November 5, 2014, from 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. and 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. for the purpose of public hearings on the bill; and

That the Clerk of the committee, in consultation with the committee Chair, be authorized to arrange the following with regard to Bill 15:

—Notice of public hearings on the Ontario parliamentary channel, the Legislative Assembly’s website and Canada NewsWire;

—Witnesses are scheduled on a first-come, first-served basis;

—Each witness will receive up to five minutes for their presentation followed by nine minutes for questions from committee members;

—The deadline for written submissions is 6 p.m. on the day of public hearings;

That the deadline for filing amendments to the bill with the Clerk of the committee shall be 1 p.m. on Friday, November 7, 2014.

That the committee be authorized to meet on Monday, November 17, 2014, during its regular meeting times for the purpose of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill; and

On Monday, November 17, 2014, at no later than 4 p.m., those amendments which have not yet been moved shall be deemed to have been moved, and the Chair of the committee shall interrupt the proceedings and shall, without further debate or amendment, put every question necessary to dispose of all remaining sections of the bill and any amendments thereto. Any division required shall be deferred until all remaining questions have been put and taken in succession, with one 20-minute waiting period allowed pursuant to standing order 129(a); and

That the committee shall report the bill to the House no later than Tuesday, November 18, 2014. In the event that the committee fails to report the bill on that day, the bill shall be deemed to be passed by the committee and shall be deemed to be reported to and received by the House; and

That, upon receiving the report of the Standing Committee on General Government, the Speaker shall put the question for adoption of the report forthwith, and at such time the bill shall be ordered for third reading, which order may be called that same day; and

That, when the order for third reading of the bill is called, two hours shall be allotted to the third reading stage of the bill, apportioned equally among the recognized parties. At the end of this time, the Speaker shall interrupt the proceedings and shall put every question necessary to dispose of this stage of the bill without further debate or amendment; and

That, in the case of any division relating to any proceedings on the bill, the division bell shall be limited to five minutes.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Mr. Bradley has moved government notice of motion number 6.

Hon. James J. Bradley: I’m very pleased to be able to participate in this important debate. I look forward to hearing from my honourable colleagues from all parties represented in the Legislative Assembly.

Mr. Speaker, last June the people of this province sent our government back to Queen’s Park with a strong mandate. They were clear that they wanted this Legislature to move past the games and grandstanding of the previous Parliament and get down to work. The people of Ontario are expecting us to take action on helping to strengthen our economy, investing in modern infrastructure and supporting our essential services. Our government understands that, and that is why we are committed to having a productive session of this Parliament. We have an ambitious legislative agenda because that is what we believe the people of Ontario deserve.

A key part of this is Bill 15, Fighting Fraud and Reducing Automobile Insurance Rates Act, is obvious. I would like to thank Minister Charles Sousa for all his work in bringing this bill forward. I know his ministry has worked closely with many industry partners to develop the proposed legislation.

Just to provide some context as to how we got here, the proposed Fighting Fraud and Reducing Automobile Insurance Rates Act, 2014, is a combination of two pieces of legislation that died on the order paper. The first, Fighting Fraud and Reducing Automobile Insurance Rates, originally introduced on March 4, 2014, went through 10 hours of debate on second reading, and 53 members participated. While at the committee stage, many organizations presented before the committee, including AMAPCEO, the Associated Canadian Car Rental Operators, and the Insurance Brokers Association.

The second legislation, the Roadside Assistance Protection Act, 2014, was originally introduced on April 15. Like so many other important pieces of legislation in the previous Parliament, these bills were stalled by the opposition. It is clear, Mr. Speaker, that we need to move forward with this bill.

Bill 15 directly stems from the 2013 budget, the government’s auto insurance cost reduction strategy and recommendations in the final report of the Honourable Mr. Justice Cunningham to the Minister of Finance regarding the transformation of the auto insurance statutory accident benefits dispute resolution process. If passed, Bill 15 will take action on a number of key initiatives that Ontarians deserve. I believe these initiatives demonstrate that this bill deserves to have a speedy passage.

Bill 15 will transform the dispute resolution system to help injured Ontario drivers settle disputes faster. This will cut down on consumer frustration as well as curb financial and administrative stress on the system, which keeps costs high.

Bill 15 will also reduce the amount of time a vehicle can be stored, accruing charges, after an accident without notice to the driver, from 60 days to a shorter time frame. We’ll also provide licence and regulation for, and fight fraud in, the tow truck industry.

Bill 15 will modernize the system for insurance agent and adjuster disciplinary hearings. Streamlining the disciplinary process would support quicker regulatory action against agents and adjusters who are engaging in cost-generating, deceptive and often fraudulent actions.

Bill 15 also proposes a long-overdue measure that would help modernize the auto insurance system. If passed, the legislation would amend the Insurance Act to align the prejudgment interest rate for non-pecuniary loss, also called “pain and suffering damages,” for individuals injured in a motor vehicle collision to reflect market conditions.

Our new legislation would further reduce costs, fight fraud and protect consumers.

Mr. Speaker, as I have outlined, Bill 15 would bring much-needed changes to Ontario’s auto insurance system. It is the next step in our commitment to keep the system fair and affordable for Ontario drivers.

To provide some background on this type of motion, time allocation was codified in the standing orders in the 1990s. and I well recall those. I think at the time Mr. David Cooke of the NDP was the one who was responsible for codifying these. He was the House leader at the time. This change in the standing orders allowed the government to put forward a debatable motion that would limit the length of debates on government bills and motions and help speed up passage of key legislation.

A time allocation motion allows for committee time, where the real work happens. As always, the public will have an opportunity to participate through public hearings and written submissions. And the opposition parties are welcome to put forward amendments to strengthen the bill.

Time allocation is one part of the legislative tool kit available and has been used by all three parties here in Ontario. From 1999 to 2003, the last Conservative government time-allocated 60% of its bills.

Although it is our government’s preference to allow bills to process through the normal course, these types of motions are from time to time necessary, especially when there are bills from the last Parliament that Ontarians are counting on us to pass.

Voters of Ontario sent a clear message last June: They did not want any more of the stalling of the Legislature by the opposition parties. I urge all members of the House to support this motion and help pass this bill as soon as possible.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): I’d like to thank the deputy House leader for his contribution to the debate. Further debate?

Mr. Steve Clark: Good morning. I just want to make a few comments on the government motion. When I was given the motion last night, it was shortly after we had a similar closure motion on Bill 18. I recalled a quote from a famous baseball player, Yogi Berra, who played in the major leagues for 19 years, but he was known for his Yogiisms.

Hon. James J. Bradley: “It ain’t over till it’s over”?

Mr. Steve Clark: No, the dean of the Legislature is wrong. It’s not “It ain’t over till it’s over.” The one I thought of was, “It’s like déjà vu all over again.” That was one of Yogi’s comments reportedly when he saw Roger Maris and Mickey Mantle hit back-to-back home runs for the Yankees. So it’s déjà vu all over again. We’ve got yet another closure motion by the government.

But before I do make a few comments, we did have a big event yesterday in Ontario. We had the municipal elections. So I want to take this opportunity, because we’re in the city of Toronto, to congratulate John Tory on his election as mayor. As most of you know—

Applause.

Mr. Steve Clark: Thank you, Minister. Thank you very much for giving him some applause. I think we should congratulate him. I had the pleasure of working with him as a staffer when he was the leader of our party. I wish him well in his next four years as the mayor of this fine city.

I also want to take the opportunity, if members will indulge me, to congratulate some of my local mayors who won election last night. It will only take a moment, and I do have a few moments. I want to thank and congratulate one of my acclaimed mayors, Herb Scott from the township of Athens.

I want to congratulate a new reeve, Doug Malanka, in Augusta township; a new mayor in Edwardsburgh/Cardinal, Mayor Pat Sayeau; an acclaimed mayor in Elizabethtown-Kitley, Jim Pickard; another acclaimed mayor in the Front of Yonge township, Roger Haley; our new mayor in the township of Leeds and the Thousand Islands, Joe Baptista; a new mayor in the village of Merrickville-Wolford, Dave Nash; the re-elected mayor of North Grenville, David Gordon; and the re-elected mayor of the township of Rideau Lakes, Ron Holman. I want to congratulate Robin Jones on her election as the new mayor of the village of Westport.

David Henderson was re-elected last night as the mayor of the city of Brockville; congratulations to His Worship Mayor Henderson. Mayor Brett Todd was elected again as the mayor of Prescott. And Erika Demchuk was re-elected as mayor of Gananoque.

I want to thank all of those mayors who won election and all of the members of council who were successful last night. But more importantly, Speaker, as a former municipal politician, I want to thank each and every person for putting their name on the ballot. Running for office is a wonderful opportunity, and I hope that, regardless of the outcome, those who put their name forward last night—I want to thank them. It was great to participate in democracy, and I wish them all the best for their four-year term.

Moving from congratulating local elections to talking to the government about closure motions: I made a few comments yesterday about closure motions, closing off debate. I have to tell you, again, I was very disappointed that we’re having, on consecutive days, motions by the government to close and suppress debate. This was one of the bills that the government asked me, as the opposition House leader, to give quick passage to. In fact, they gave us four bills, and then they added a fifth bill. For the most part, Speaker, we were okay with allowing some of those bills to pass with a couple of hours’ debate in the Legislature, a few days of committee and back here for third reading.

This bill, in particular, was one I took back to my caucus, and I communicated very clearly to the government House leader that my caucus wanted to have a few days of committee hearings. We felt very strongly, especially given the feedback that we’ve received from the towing industry, that we should have some public hearings. We should have public hearings in eastern Ontario, southwestern Ontario, here in the city of Toronto and also in northern Ontario. I think there was some consensus by some of the members that that was a good thing. So I am disappointed, Speaker, that the government has chosen again to have a closure motion.

I want to put it in perspective. This motion that the deputy House leader, the dean of the Legislature, the member for St. Catharines, the Honourable Jim Bradley, made today, only provides one day of hearings. For the entire province of Ontario, we’ve got one day, Wednesday, November 5, for four hours, from 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. and 4 p.m. to 6 p.m. Four hours for a bill—and with, if you read the motion closely, a five-minute presence for each witness and nine minutes for questions. Over that four-hour period, about 16 people will be able to give deputation—16 individuals—and that’s it.

I don’t think it was unreasonable for me, Speaker, to give an opportunity for the government to have some minor travel in the province, to see people in eastern Ontario, in southwestern Ontario, here in Toronto and in the north. Five days isn’t a lot to ask; I think it’s very reasonable.

I was very disappointed yesterday in the debate, when we were debating this bill, because I suggested it to the whip. The chief whip was here. I suggested that he have hearings, and he said something very strange to me. He said something strange. I’ll quote from Hansard.

This is what the member for Mississauga–Streetsville said: “If you’re in the north, if you’re in rural Ontario, if you’re in the east or if you’re anywhere where a deputation isn’t occurring, you can still apply to make a deputation to the committee.” Here’s the quote I want to direct you to: “You can either make it by teleconference from your home, on your telephone, you can use Skype and you can get yourself connected in....” Speaker, this is ridiculous.

This is what the government, the chief government whip, is suggesting on how we run deputations. This is a government that wants to govern by Skype and by teleconference. That’s what they want. They don’t want to have people come to a deputation close to home.

Ms. Soo Wong: Oh, come on. It’s technology—

Mr. Steve Clark: It’s right there in Hansard. I know you don’t like it. I know you’re not happy with it, but it’s right here in Hansard. This is what you said yesterday. You said you didn’t want to go to the people to hear from them; you didn’t want to engage with them.

Ms. Soo Wong: That’s not true.

Mr. Steve Clark: It is true. It’s right here in black and white.

Governing by Skype and by teleconference is unacceptable on a bill like this—

Interjection.

Mr. Steve Clark: He’s talking to me so I think I’ll quote him.

An even worse comment, Speaker, which was made by the member for Beaches–East York—his quote in Hansard is, now listen to this; it’s unbelievable: “We don’t have to be taking a whole dog-and-pony show all over the province in order to hear from people when they can call in, or they can send a letter.” That’s what he said. This isn’t a dog-and-pony show, member. Going out and having committee hearings is not a dog-and-pony show. It’s an essential part of what we do in this place. Committee work, I suggest, is extremely important.

Going out to Ontarians and listening to what they actually want in good public policy is a good thing. You can’t say one thing in your throne speech and then do something else once you’re here in the Legislature. To make comments referring to committee hearings as a dog-and-pony show is absolutely ridiculous. It’s an insult to the 107 members of this Legislature for one member to refer to a committee hearing as a dog-and-pony show.

I’ve only been here four and a half years, but I can tell you something: I’ve been at committee hearings and I find them extremely valuable. I think members who have been here a significant amount of time know how important going out and listening to concerns—especially on a bill that we all know we have stakeholders that have some concerns.

When the government House leader asked me for my comments on five bills, I actually thought he wanted to hear my opinion. When he asked if I could go to my caucus to see if they would give quick passage to these bills, I actually thought he cared. But to have two members yesterday afternoon on debate on Bill 15—when, clearly, speaker after speaker indicate that there are some things that we believe should be discussed in a more comprehensive manner, this is how the government responds: “You can Skype in and tell us what you think.

You can call in and tell us what you think.” We’re not going to take, as the member said, a dog-and-pony show. That’s insulting to refer to it as a dog-and-pony show.

Speaker, I’ll tell you, this bill needs to have some discussion. As we all know, by and large, the towing companies, garages and storage yards provide very reputable service. There are some—

Ms. Soo Wong: Bad operators.

Mr. Steve Clark: Absolutely. As the member opposite from Scarborough–Agincourt said, there are some bad operators.

We’ve heard very clearly from some of their associations that they agree in principle with some of the intent of the bill, but there needs to be some discussion. These men and women are small business people and, with all due respect to the people who want to govern by telephone and by Skype, I think it would be a great opportunity for us to take this bill on the road, to try to engage the approximate 1,200 tow truck and vehicle storage operators in Ontario to hear what they have to say. Some 16 or 17 people over four hours: to me, it’s not enough. It’s not enough. I am insulted that I would be asked for my opinion and then the government just goes ahead and does their business.

Again, I made a joke yesterday that the Premier referred to this place—at least I interpret what she referred to this place as the—

Interruption.

Mr. Steve Clark: Oh, the Sergeant-at-Arms is coming for the phone.

The government can’t say one thing and do something else. They keep pledging transparency and accountability. In the throne speech, there are lots of comments. One of the quotes I gave yesterday, right out of the throne speech—I really think the members, especially the new members on the other side, should listen to it. I want to read it into the record again: “Your government knows that trust is hard-earned, but easily lost. And so it will work each and every day to keep your trust by meeting its commitments to you.” “Meeting its commitments” to Ontarians doesn’t mean that only 16 of you can come to Toronto and make a deputation. It means taking this bill out on the road and discussing it.

On two consecutive days, we’ve had a closure motion. This is the way, obviously, this government is going to operate. I think it’s shameful.

Again, to be able to plead about engaging Ontarians as full partners, to say you want to be open and transparent and then to do something completely opposite once you get the opportunity, once you actually engage the opposition, once you ask the NDP and the people in our Conservative caucus what they think, and then when they tell you and when they give you a reasonable suggestion on how to deal with public policy, you just ram it down their throat and you say no, and you make comments that I think are really negative to this whole process.

I happen to think that committees and discussions on public policy are great opportunities for us. I think most Ontarians want that from their government and want that from their opposition.

The other thing I want to make sure that I put on the record is some of the quotes from some of the mandate letters that the government made such great fanfare about publishing online. I encourage members of the public to go online and look at these mandate letters for each and every minister. Some of the quotes that are there are almost laughable now because of the fact that this government, on consecutive days, wants to stifle debate, wants to shut down debate on two bills.

Here’s a quote from one of the mandate letters: “We want to be the most open and transparent government in the country.” I suggest that there’s no possible way you are going to be the most open and transparent government when you operate using standing order 47 to close and stifle debate and you then look at people and say, “You’re going to have to call in on Skype if you want to engage us.”

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: If you have Skype.

Mr. Steve Clark: If you have Skype.

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: If you have the bandwidth.

Mr. Steve Clark: If you have Internet. Yes, if you’re in a rural area and don’t have good high-speed Internet, you won’t be able to do much Skyping.

Here’s another quote from a mandate letter: “It is of the utmost importance that we lead responsibly, act with integrity, manage spending wisely and are accountable for every action we take.” I think one of the members may want to rethink the action he took yesterday when he called the committee system a dog-and-pony show. I think we need to be accountable for every action we take, and I hope at some opportunity perhaps they can deal with that. You can’t lead, you can’t be an activist, you can’t deal in moderation as a government, and then put the hammer down every single time we in the opposition say, “We want to take a few hours back from the process to talk to Ontarians.”

I happen to think that I’m a pretty easy guy to get along with. I think of my colleague from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke. When we’re in a meeting and we’re negotiating on behalf of our caucus, I think we’re pretty fair and reasonable. I think we’re open to suggestions, but you know what? Don’t ask us for our suggestions and then totally ignore us when we’re being reasonable.

To table five bills and to say that two of those five bills should have more than 16 people appearing as a delegation—I think we’re being pretty reasonable. I don’t think that’s an outlandish request, to have a few days of committee travel here or there to actually hit some of the corners of the province, to actually listen to people.

My colleague from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke quoted one of the sayings that is here in this chamber, Audi alteram partem, which means, “Hear the other side.” All we’re asking is that you hear the other side. Allow public comment on your policy. Don’t be afraid of engaging people. Don’t live in the bubble at Queen’s Park. Get out of the city of Toronto and talk to people.

I know that my colleague and others have some things to say. I just want to thank you for the opportunity to speak. I hope some of the members on the other side will acknowledge that they made some wrong comments, and that they speak to their government House leader and their House administration over there and not govern by closure motion. Don’t get caught in the trap of stifling debate.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further debate?

M me France Gélinas: I find it absolutely incredible to believe that I have been back at Queen’s Park—we have all been back at Queen’s Park—for all of five days. Today is day 6 that all 107 MPPs, some of them newly elected, are back at Queen’s Park. And five days into the job we get closure motions. This is the second closure motion and we’ve barely been back at work.

The election is not that far away. If I heard it once, I heard it a thousand times: The Liberal government was going to be open, transparent and respectful of democracy. And what do we get? Five days into the job they shut down debate. Five days into the job they say, “We have heard you enough.”

Democracy is supposed to be giving the people a voice. This is what our system is all about. We don’t have tyranny. We don’t have a dictatorship in Ontario. We have a democracy. And a democracy is that you make sure that the people you represent have an opportunity to be heard; they have an opportunity to speak; they have an opportunity to share. But none of this is being respected.

Five days into the job, they’re saying, “We have heard you enough. Democracy was a fine idea to get elected, but now that we are elected, really, we’ve heard you enough. We, the Liberals, know what is good for all of the province.” They don’t have to listen to the people of Nickel Belt or the people throughout Ontario. They know what’s good for us.

I disagree with that. I’ve never had an opportunity to talk to this bill, yet of the 33 beautiful little communities that I represent, from Biscotasing to Shining Tree, to Westree, to Gogama, to Beaver Lake—it doesn’t matter where I go—there are always people who come to me because they have issues with their auto insurance.

We have a bill in front of us that is titled the Fighting Fraud and Reducing Automobile Insurance Rates Act. The problem is that the “fighting fraud” part of the bill leads us to believe that it is us, the good people of Ontario, the drivers of Ontario, who are the people defrauding the system. But this is not what I hear when I’m in my riding. This is not what I hear at all.

I would like to give you the example of Mr. Bill Mason. Bill won’t have an opportunity to come down and tell his story because the closure motion gives you all of one day to come to the hearing; and if that day happens to be the day you have therapy back in Nickel Belt, the chance to come down here to tell your story is completely gone. They don’t want to hear from the good people of Nickel Belt. The Liberals already know it all. The Liberals already know what’s good for us and refuse to listen to us.

I will try to tell the story that Bill Mason would have very much wanted to come and talk to this committee about—he and his son Shawn. Mr. Mason had a catastrophic accident and has been severely disabled ever since. He has had nothing but a hard time with his insurance company, the Dominion of Canada General Insurance Company. It has been an ongoing fight to get him anything from an hour of physiotherapy so that he could walk to an hour of speech therapy so that he could speak or an hour of occupational therapy so that he can dress himself and go about his activities and daily life.

Mr. Mason has been asked—not asked, really; told—by his insurance company that he must submit to this and this and that other assessment. The assessments that his own family physician, the physiotherapist, the occupational therapist, the speech pathologist at our hospital in Sudbury where he was treated after his accident—all of them apparently knew nothing. He had to be reassessed by some physiotherapist, occupational therapist and physician with the same qualifications, coming from the same college, but they come up from down south to do the assessment.

It’s rather interesting that through freedom of access of information at FSCO, we were able to find out that when you ask, as Bill Mason did, for a reassessment, you are limited to a maximum of $450 to $900. This is the maximum you can pay to have a reassessment to argue your case against the insurance company that says, “No, you’re all fine. Although you can’t walk, can’t speak and can’t dress yourself, life is supposed to be a champion, and you don’t need the help of your auto insurance.” But when the auto insurance did their assessment to say that he did not need care, they paid out $5,350.

Funny how the maximum is applied when the patient wants a reassessment, but when the insurance company wants a reassessment, money is no object.

Then, again through freedom of access of information, we started to look into where this money was coming from. You see, the Insurance Bureau of Canada tells you how the premium that we pay for auto insurance is to be spent. The bureau recommends that 53.1% of every dollar we pay go to policyholder claims. So 53% of the money we pay is supposed to be paid back into claims; 10.5% goes to profit—not a bad gig if you can get it if you compare this to what I’m getting on my return on investment; 15.9% is apparently for taxes; and 20.5 cents of every dollar is for operating and regulatory costs.

That is important, because the 20.5% of operating and regulatory costs is the cost for the insurance company to do things. But when we started to look at where the money was coming from, we realized that some of the money that had been used to assess and reassess so that they could deny him any kind of support and care was not being billed to the operating and regulatory costs; it was coming out of his claim account. It was coming out of what is basically the money that was supposed to be used for his care. This is what we call improper coding practice by auto insurance.

I come from a health care background. I’m a physiotherapist by profession. I have dealt with many, many victims of auto insurance. When we brought that forward to FSCO, and I—not “we”; certainly my constituents did, but so did I—and said, “You know the fraud that you’re talking about? It’s not always the little guy who pretends to have whiplash when he doesn’t. Sometimes it’s actually the auto insurers who are not coding stuff properly. They are coding operating costs as claim costs.” The claim cost is the money that you have for your care.

Not only were they doing that—again, through freedom of access to information and hours and hours and hours to try to make sense of the documents that were shared with us, because they made sure that they blacked out enough parts to make it impossible to read—but we were able to show that they had hired a private investigator to spy upon Mr. Mason’s activities so that they could use this to deny him his claim.

Do you know where those expenses were billed? Could you, in any way possible, imagine a private investigator providing care to Mr. Mason? Well, this is where it was coded and this is where it was billed. It was not billed to the operating costs of the insurance company. It was billed into his claim cost, which by then had gone down to zero, which means he was not able to get any help whatsoever. To me, this looks like fraud.

Do people make mistakes? Yes, I’ll be the first one to say that people do make mistakes, and maybe it was just a clerk someplace who made an error and coded this to the claim rather than coding this to operations. But we have a system of oversight in Ontario so that this kind of stuff doesn’t happen. Once the coding is gone, it goes to FSCO, which stands for—I never remember what it stands for—the Financial Services Commission of Ontario. The Financial Services Commission of Ontario is supposed to oversee this to make sure it does not happen.

First, I figure, “It’s just a coding mistake. We’re all human beings. Human beings all make mistakes. It doesn’t matter where you work.” But then three more were able to file freedom-of-access-to-information requests, again through FSCO. A pile of impossible-to-read documents came. I sat down in Mr. Mason’s kitchen and went through piles and piles of paper. I have to say great thanks to his son Shawn, who spent many, many, many hours sifting through those documents that we got.

The other three freedom-of-access-to-information requests for three other independent accidents—and they were not all from the insurance company that Mr. Mason had dealt with. One was from the same; the other two were from two other different insurance companies. You know what? We found coding errors in all four of them, where it looks like the claims that people are being paid out to help them recuperate and help them gain access to therapy and health care services so that they can get back into their lives, back at work, back into their families—those claims keep going up and up; absolutely.

But all the money is not going to the clients. All the money is not being used to help them regain. Some of the money is being used for things—it doesn’t matter how creative you are; you cannot make a private investigator part of a health care team. I’ve been in the business long enough to know that we’ve never needed the help of a private investigator to get somebody back on their feet, walking, able to dress themselves and feed themselves or speak. They have no role to play in a circle of care. They are there to deny legitimate policyholders the care that they need.

But Mr. Mason will never have an opportunity to share his story because the government has decided that there will be one day of hearings, and that happens to be a day that he is not able to travel from Nickel Belt all the way down here to Queen’s Park. This makes it especially unfair for people who come from far.

For a lot of the people that I represent, be it in Ivanhoe Lake, in Bisco or in Foleyet, there is no way to get down here and back home in one day. The opportunity for those people to come means coming down the day before, doing the hearings, and getting back home sometimes late into the night, when the moose and all the big animals are walking our highways at the risk of your life. Those people would like to be heard, but five days into our new session, the opportunity to be heard has been taken away.

So when I saw and when I found out what was happening with some of the claims of people in my riding, I went and saw the Minister of Finance—it was Dwight Duncan at the time—because he is responsible for FSCO. He had no interest in hearing what I had to say. He was rude to me and basically said, “You voted against the budget. Why should I help you?” I said, “Well, you don’t have to help me. How about you make sure that FSCO does its job of looking at how the different services are coded into the insurance industry?” He brushed me away. He didn’t want anything to do with me.

I don’t give up easy, so I went and saw the Auditor General. It was Jim McCarter at the time. So I went and talked to Jim and showed him that I am extremely grateful to the Auditor General that did look into the insurance industry, and I will quote: “ ... the people of Ontario are paying auto insurance premiums that are higher than anywhere in Canada” and he suspects “something fishy is going on as the costs of claims continue to climb—even though accidents have decreased.”

In his report, which the government used for part of the reason why we have this bill in front of us, he does not only point the finger at people defrauding the auto industry; he also points the finger at FSCO and he also points the finger at the insurance companies. Do we see any of that in that bill? None whatsoever. When we point the finger at fighting fraud, we are pointing the finger at policyholders like you and I, Speaker, who drive a car in Ontario. If you live in Nickel Belt, you can wait for a bus for a very long time because it’s not going to come.

The only way to get around in Nickel Belt is to have a car, which means we all have auto insurance, which means we have all been pointed at by the Liberal government as frauding. But a lot of us are not.

How about FSCO not doing their job of making sure that the coding is done properly? How about the auto insurers who miscode the expenses that they do on behalf of policyholders? None of this will be looked at. None of this will have an opportunity to be heard, because they’ve decided that they have heard from Ontarians enough.

Je ne peux pas vous dire comment j’étais déçue quand j’ai entendu dire que ce gouvernement libéral était pour imposer le bâillon. Imposer le bâillon, c’est quelque chose qu’on entend au niveau fédéral tout le temps. M. Harper, il adore ça. Lui, il n’a pas besoin de regarder ce qui se passe. Mais quand les libéraux étaient en train de faire cabale et faire campagne dans les dernières élections, pour eux autres, on a entendu parler de démocratie, de transparence, d’imputabilité. Ça, c’était au moins 10 fois par jour à tous les jours. Ça ne finissait pas.

Maintenant qu’on est retourné en Chambre, maintenant que ça fait cinq grosses journées qu’on est retourné en Chambre, ils imposent le bâillon. Ils ne veulent pas écouter les Ontariens et Ontariennes. Ils ne veulent pas écouter l’opposition non plus. Ils pensent qu’ils ont la vérité avec un grand V, puis ils savent où ils s’en vont et ils n’ont pas besoin de nous.

On est dans une démocratie. Une démocratie, ça veut dire que les gens ont le droit de s’exprimer, ont le droit d’être entendus et ont le droit de faire

partie du processus législatif. Quand on regarde ce qu’on a devant nous en ce moment, c’est le contraire sur toute la ligne.

Ça fait cinq jours qu’on est ici. Ça fait deux motions de bâillon qu’on a, deux motions qui nous disent : « On a assez entendu parler de vous. On ne veut plus en entendre parler. »

Mais pour moi qui représente les gens de Nickel Belt, ça veut dire qu’il y a plusieurs des gens que je représente qui n’auront jamais la chance de venir parler au gouvernement pour leur dire : « On a une opportunité de faire des changements qui amélioreraient les choses, qui diminueraient les primes et qui assureraient qu’on a un système transparent et imputable. » Ils n’auront jamais la chance de faire ça parce qu’on leur a dit qu’on les a assez entendus.

On leur a dit que le gouvernement libéral a écouté tout ce qu’il y avait à écouter en cinq grosses journées en Chambre et pour deux projets de loi on impose le bâillon. On ne veut plus vous entendre. Eux ont la vérité avec un grand V et ils ne veulent plus nous écouter.

Ça, c’est vraiment dommage. Ç’est vraiment inconcevable et ce n’est pas acceptable.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further debate?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Normally I begin by saying, “It’s a pleasure to join this debate this morning,” but it’s anything but. Yesterday we debated a time allocation motion here in the House, and I must say that I expressed some anger about what the government was doing so early into this session—some anger in that this would be the tactic they would take on, as my colleague from Nickel Belt says, day 5. Monday was day 5. Yesterday was day 5, and they immediately brought in a time allocation motion. It’s pretty disappointing.

Before I get into that this morning, I do want to talk a little bit about the municipal elections, as everybody has this morning, with respect to my own riding of Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke. I must say, I don’t even have all the results. Some of them are coming in a little slowly, or maybe it’s just me. Of course, I congratulate my former leader John Tory on winning the mayoralty race in Toronto last night. It was quite a tremendous voter turnout, which shows there was a lot of interest in that election. Although how could there not be? I think they had 12,467 debates during that election.

I don’t know how in the name of God they managed that. We have a few debates during a provincial campaign and find that pretty stressful at times. I don’t know how those candidates managed—at least three of them. You realize there were 65 candidates for mayor on the ballot in the city of Toronto? Not all are quite as well known as Mr. Tory, Mr. Ford and Ms. Chow. But I do congratulate John, and I’m sure that he’ll bring the experience and the dedication that he’s brought to every other position that he has held in life to the mayor’s office in Toronto. I wish him well and look forward to working with him.

Now, back home in Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke it was quite a night as well. There have been some changes in my riding of Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke. I want to congratulate and thank everyone who put their name up, as I always do to anyone who does put their name up for public office. It’s a daunting decision to make, and for those who make that decision, I congratulate them and thank them for being involved in the democratic process.

Let’s just go through the list.

In Admaston/Bromley we have a new mayor in Michael Donohue; in Laurentian Valley, a new mayor in Steve Bennett; in Laurentian Hills, a new mayor in John Reinwald; in Madawaska Valley, a new mayor in Kim Love; in Whitewater, a new mayor in Hal Johnson and a new reeve in Terry Millar; in the city of Pembroke, a new mayor in Mike LeMay; in Head, Clara and Maria, a new mayor in Jim Gibson; in Deep River, a new mayor in Joan Lougheed; in North Algona Wilberforce, a new mayor in Deborah Farr; in the town of Renfrew, a new mayor in Don Eady; in the township of Horton, a new mayor in Bob Kingsbury; in Brudenell, Lyndoch and Raglan, a new mayor in Garry Gruntz; and in the township of McNab-Braeside, a new mayor in Tom Peckett.

I don’t have all the results from some of the other communities; I have 17 municipalities, not including the city of Pembroke, in my riding.

So it was quite an interesting night. I didn’t get all of the results but I congratulate all of the winners, and I look forward to working with them and their councils over the next four years. I thank all of the mayors who have either been defeated or have left on their own accord and did not run for re-election at this time.

I want to talk about one mayor in particular—I expect I’ll be doing a statement later this week—Mayor Jack Wilson, the retiring mayor in Laurentian Valley. I was at a function on Friday night. It was the wardens’ banquet, but also it was a retirement do for Jack Wilson, who has served in public elected office for 50 consecutive years. That does not happen very often. I think it has happened four times in the history of the province of Ontario. It is my personal prediction that it will never happen again. Those days have long passed.

You should have to get into this business pretty early and stay pretty late in order to serve 50 years. I will be talking about Mr. Wilson and the kind of unbelievable gentleman he was, and is, at another time.

To the business at hand: My colleague, our House leader, from Leeds–Grenville, talked about—and I can’t resist it either because he mentioned Yogi Berra. Lawrence “Yogi” Berra of the New York Yankees, a three-time most valuable player in the major leagues, had some sayings such as, “You come to a fork in the road, take it.” He was an axiomatic sort of person. Another one was, “It ain’t over till it’s over.” But one of the ones he’s most famous for, and I know my colleague said it, was: “It’s déjà vu all over again.” Those are some of the sayings Yogi Berra was famous for, and he was pretty famous for being one heck of a catcher as well.

It’s like déjà vu all over again because this nightmare that we lived yesterday, we’re reliving today. This appears to be the way that this—they think they’ve got the greatest mandate in the history of electoral politics in the province of Ontario. They think that the Wynne government now has this unbelievable mandate. They keep getting up and saying, “We got a very clear message on June 12 that the people want us to proceed with our agenda.”

Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: Except in Windsor.

Ms. Jennifer K. French: And Oshawa.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Mrs. Gretzky and Ms. French, from Windsor and Oshawa, disagree. They disagree, and they have the right to disagree because they won ridings that were previously held by Liberal members.

Ms. Jennifer K. French: And Joe.

Mr. John Yakabuski: And Joe Cimino up in Sudbury, yes.

Ms. Jennifer K. French: Conservative.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Right. Sorry, Ms. French. I forgot that was one of ours. Let’s move on now from that one. But thanks for pointing that out to me.

It wasn’t like they got this marvellous mandate on their agenda. We all know what happened in the election, and I really don’t want to talk about it anymore. I’m writing a book, so I don’t want to tip my hand as to what the book is going to say.

They keep saying that they’ve got this carte blanche, blank cheque from the people of Ontario to do as they wish because the people voted for that in the election. That’s just hokey. Come on. It’s just baloney. People don’t go in behind that curtain and say, “Oh, I really want to vote for this government because I want to make sure they bring in time allocation on the insurance bill and the towing bill.”

Let’s talk about the bill. Even if they do want to say they had a mandate, prior to the election that was two bills. They’ve now moulded two bills into one. The insurance fraud bill was one and the towing bill was another, but now they’ve amalgamated them into one. We’ve not got a lot of problems with the insurance bill. My colleague from Elgin–Middlesex–London has talked eloquently about that in the last Parliament, and my colleague from Nipissing spoke about it yesterday. We have some problems where we think we could have made it a lot stronger, and many of the amendments that my colleagues proposed would have made this bill a lot stronger. However, bringing the towing

part into it is a big problem.

In my riding of Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke—and you can get those stats from the Insurance Bureau of Canada if you want—we have one of the lowest claim records per 1,000 people and population anywhere in the province. I believe that our drivers in Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke are the best, and I count myself among them.

That’s part of it. But do you know what really is great about the people in Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke? They don’t lie and they don’t cheat. Our fraud numbers are next to zero. Why would the insurance bill target us the same as everyone else? Fraud is a big problem in Ontario; we know that.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: So let’s pass some rules.

Mr. John Yakabuski: If you pass a rule, you’ll find some shady characters finding a way to break that rule for their own material gain. That’s what is happening in other areas of the province. The tow truck business here in the GTA: That is organized crime. Let’s not kid ourselves here. That is run by the bikers and that is run by low-lives who are looking for every opportunity to line their pockets by taking advantage of vulnerable people who may have broken down or had a minor accident on the highway.

I know people who’ve had a minor accident on the highway and they’re besieged like vultures on a dead zebra on the savannah. Woof; down they come. Where do they come from? It’s like they have been flying around waiting for their prey. There they are, pouncing on them—a minor fender-bender: “You can’t drive that car. We’ll have to tow that.” Almost in your face, intimidating people, saying, “We’re taking your car.” “Where does that car go afterwards?” is a good question because, the next thing you know, you don’t even know where your car is. You find it three weeks later and you’ve got a bill that’s higher than the mortgage you’ve got left on your home.

Was there a need to bring in legislation? No question about it; absolutely. But the legislation is the shotgun approach where they’re just tarring everybody with the same brush. They’re bringing in legislation, for example, where there will be specific charges for specific calls.

Speaker, I want to draw this little picture. A car breaks down on the 401. You require a tow truck to back up to it, hook it up and take it to a garage to have it repaired. Okay? But they want to pay the same amount for a car that goes down into a 100-foot ravine in Renfrew county in the middle of the winter, and it isn’t paved down in that ravine. It’s rocks; uneven.

You want a tow truck operator to shimmy down there with a cable, hook up that car and try and winch it out slowly, minimizing any further damage, and they want to pay that tow truck driver the same amount they pay a tow truck driver for hooking up that car on the side of the road. Any fool can see the difference. The tow truck drivers in my riding came to see me about that. That’s just one illustration. We’ve raised that issue with the minister. They didn’t want anything to do with it. They didn’t accept any amendments on this.

So now, here’s their opportunity, my tow truck drivers from—you know where I live? It’s not around the corner. There’s no train service coming to Toronto from Renfrew county. There’s no plane service coming to Toronto from Renfrew county. It’s get onto that highway and start driving. They want my people to come down and have that opportunity, maybe, to speak to the bill.

However, it’s limited opportunity, Speaker: committee 1 to 3 p.m. and 4 to 6 p.m. on November 5, 2014. Oh, witnesses are scheduled on a first-come, first-served basis. It’s like a buffet that they don’t bring out enough food to. If you’re farther back in the line, you’re going home hungry. These folks, what’s their chance of beating somebody who lives here in the city of Toronto to the punch? What’s their chance? Pretty darned slim.

This is the government’s way of stifling our people, taking away their opportunity to speak to the bill. So what do they do? They bring in a time allocation motion. And they think this is just great. They think it’s just great because everybody has the opportunity. Well, the notice will go out—one of the members says they can write a letter. Write a letter? Write a letter, get it here to Toronto and have somebody read it? Have you ever sent a letter to the government?

Interjection.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Yes, I know; if you get a reply within six years, you’re doing well. It’s just unbelievable.

The member from Mississauga—is it Mississauga–Streetsville? Whatever; he’ll be up for a point of order shortly. Don’t worry. He says that anyone who wants to make a deputation—this is his quote from Hansard yesterday: “If you’re in the north, if you’re in rural Ontario, if you’re in the east or if you’re anywhere where a deputation isn’t occurring, you can still apply to make a deputation to the committee. You can either make it by teleconference from your home, on your telephone, you can use Skype and you can get yourself connected in, or we’ll arrange for you to go to another place where you can sit down in front of a camera and give your deputation.”

I’m just wondering if the people from Quadeville are going to feel that’s a good option for them. You see, he needs to get out of Mississauga more often. I understand he’s been to MaRS, but he needs to get up to Renfrew county perhaps and see what life in the real world is like.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Especially for a PA for agriculture, food and rural affairs.

Mr. John Yakabuski: The PA for agriculture, food and rural affairs—that’s not him. That’s the member for Beaches–East York.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Oh, that’s who I was looking at.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Yes, I know—Beaches–East York. He had a predecessor here, Michael Prue from Beaches–East York, who probably understood committee as well as anybody and understood the value of committee. But here’s what the newly-elected member for Beaches–East York has to say about committee—

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: What did he say?

Mr. John Yakabuski: I’m going to tell you right now. He says, “We don’t have to be taking a whole dog-and-pony show all over the province in order to hear from people when they can call in, or they can send a letter. Already, clearly, they’re communicating with the members in the House.”

Well, I say to the member from Beaches–East York, the next time he’s at committee: Are you dressing up as a dog or a pony? I would love to see that—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): I would ask the member to withdraw.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I apologize to the ponies—oh, I withdraw.

Speaker, I am going to conclude very shortly and leave some time for the member from Elgin–Middlesex–London. But I just want the people to understand that this is completely against the grain of what this government promised. They promised to work with opposition. They promised to consult.

You know, I’ll say this for Dalton McGuinty—and I know a lot of those people over there owe their seats to Dalton McGuinty. I don’t happen to agree with everything Dalton McGuinty did; in fact, I disagree with a lot of it. But I’ll tell you one thing: When he was in government here, we did travel on committee.

All we’ve asked for with this bill is two days of travel throughout the province of Ontario: two days, perhaps one in northern Ontario and one in rural Ontario—two days of committee across this province, and we are not even being given that, because this government wants to shut down debate and stifle anybody who might bring an idea for improvement to this piece of legislation. Shame on them.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further debate?

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: Speaker, I’m glad that I can contribute to this debate on Bill 15 to fight insurance fraud and reduce auto rates.

I’m particularly concerned about this bill because it was originally brought to the House, and now we’re reintroducing it and going through it again, but it seems like an awfully thick bill, and when I look at the bill, the first 23 pages are all about towing fraud. That’s a lot of pages to go through for the average person to get to a section—actually a very important section—that is going to affect the insured once this bill has passed. Not a lot of members have actually talked about that specific

section that’s going to impact the coverage and the process of how to get those coverages when you’re in a car insurance accident.

So that was interesting, how we’re all focusing—the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke focused on the towing

section of the bill, but the biggest impact that’s going to happen as far as litigation and the rights of someone who is injured in a car accident is on page 23. It’s 23 pages into this bill before you get to what’s really going to matter to the average person.

The towing cost is absolutely going to be a part of that whole structure of how to manage the way the towing system operates so that it can be serving consumers better—absolutely. But to put it at the beginning, to me, kind of shows the priority of where the insurance fraud is—should be on page 23, first and foremost.

Originally, this whole topic of auto insurance rates and people being charged too much and the fact that people are struggling to make ends meet and afford everyday bills and everyday life was brought to light in this House, in a minority government situation, by our member from Bramalea–Gore–Malton. He’s my seatmate in this session. He brought to light, in a minority government, this issue, and he fought hard to make this minority government understand the importance of the changes that were made in 2010 to the accident benefits coverage for insureds.

They were cut in half in 2010, and at the time people were then supposed to purchase additional coverage. They were to top up what the original accident benefits had changed from. That meant that they were going to pay more for extra coverage they originally had.

The member from Bramalea–Gore–Malton made a very good point. He made a very good case for the fact that this meant that insurance companies were going to save a lot of money. They tell us that where their expenses come from, out of the premiums that they get, is mostly with regard to claims, and a lot of it through injury claims. So they brought a bill forward, the changes that happened in 2010, to reduce the coverage when you’re hurt in a car accident—how much you can collect for rehab, how much you can have for attendant care, how much you can have for income replacement when you’re home because you can’t work—and you had to top all of those up, and that cost you more.

One thing we keep forgetting, Speaker, is that insurance is very confusing for the average person—very confusing. If you have a good broker or a good agent who is going to go through it with you

section by section, you’re a very lucky consumer. You have to sometimes be patient enough to go through it

section by

section because it’s a long conversation to describe it. A lot of things changed. A lot of your benefits got reduced, and nobody knew.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): I would thank the speaker.

Debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Since it is now 10:15, this House is recessed until 10:30.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

Wearing of ribbons

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): A point of order from the government House leader.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, I believe you will find that we have unanimous consent that all members be permitted to wear yellow ribbons in memory of Corporal Nathan Cirillo, who will be honoured today with a regimental funeral in his hometown of Hamilton.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The government House leader is seeking unanimous consent. Do we agree? Agreed.

Wearing of carnations

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nickel Belt on a point of order.

M me France Gélinas: Thank you, Speaker. I believe we have unanimous consent to wear a carnation for the MS Society Day at Queen’s Park.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): So that’s what it was. The member from Nickel Belt is seeking unanimous consent to wear the carnation. Do we agree? Agreed. Thank you.

Now it’s time for introduction of guests.

Introduction of Visitors

Mr. Steve Clark: I’m so happy to have a couple of my constituents here today with the Nurse Practitioners’ Association of Ontario. They’re just behind me in the public galleries. I’d like to welcome, from the city of Brockville, Betty Hogeterp, and from Gananoque, Diane Batchelor. Ladies, welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: It’s an exciting day in the Legislature. Today is the annual Meet the Miners gathering, a tradition since 1978. I want to introduce some very special guests we have in the east gallery: John Mullally, director of corporate affairs for Goldcorp; Paul Martin, president and CEO of Detour Gold; Phil du Toit, president and CEO of North American Palladium; Scott Yarrow, vice-president of sustainability for Glencore; Peter McBride, the manager of communications for the Ontario Mining Association; and Cory McPhee, the vice-president of corporate affairs for Vale. Welcome, everyone. It’s going to be a great day.

Mr. Bill Walker: It’s my pleasure to introduce members of the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada: Michael Roche, in his 12th year of volunteering with the MS Society, Andrea Strath and Donna Czukar; and also Betty Barber from the nurse practitioners. She’s from the great city of Owen Sound in Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound.

Mr. Michael Mantha: I have visitors here from Algoma–Manitoulin today. I have Irene Breckon, who is the grandmother of both Katey and Emily Krauss. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Soo Wong: I’m very pleased to welcome the nurse practitioners here with us this morning, but I also want to shout out to Claudia, a U of T grad from nursing school. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: I would like to welcome our friend Terri MacDougall from North Bay, who is here with the nurse practitioners.

Hon. Dipika Damerla: I’d like to join in welcoming a number of representatives of the Multiple Sclerosis Society of Canada who are joining us today: Joanne Ticknor, Gaby Mammone, Yonit Fuhrmann, Andrea Strath and Michael Roche. Welcome.

I also want to take a minute to welcome Manoj Fernandes and Joanne D’Souza. Manoj is the father and Joanne is the cousin of page captain Darren Fernandes. They’re in the members’ gallery. Welcome.

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: I have a number of ladies from the nurse practitioners’ association who are here today, and they’re from different parts of the province: Chantelle Hart from Peterborough, Donna Kearney from Muskoka, Linda Kowitz from Parry Sound, Leanna Lefebvre from Muskoka, Lia Kutzscher from Muskoka, and Tina Lesk from Orillia. I wish everybody will give them a warm welcome here today.

Mr. Michael Mantha: I also wanted to welcome the Meet the Miners today. We’re going to be meeting up with quite a few of our delegations today, and we’re looking forward to meeting you at your reception tonight.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I want to welcome nurse practitioner Hoda Mankal, who practises at Carlington Community Health Centre, which is located in my riding of Ottawa Centre.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: I’d like to also welcome to Queen’s Park today Jennifer Blackhall and Betty Barber. They represent the Clinton Family Health Team

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: I too want to welcome nurse practitioners Claudia, from the family health team in Pickering, as well as her colleagues Jill from Sudbury and Stephanie from Oshawa. Welcome.

Hon. Jeff Leal: I just want to recognize the Nurse Practitioners’ Association of Ontario, who put on a great informative breakfast here this morning. We want to thank them for all their great works for primary care in Ontario.

Mr. Joe Dickson: As the parliamentary assistant to Minister Michael Gravelle, Minister of Northern Development and Mines, I would like to introduce two of my senior staff who are in the east gallery with the other members from our great mining industry, and they are Laura Oliver, my EA, and Lynette Flannigan, my MA. I have both of them here today.

M me France Gélinas: It is my pleasure to introduce to Queen’s Park nurse practitioner Jennifer Clement: I must say—I want to add to this—the best-ever nurse practitioner. She is part of the first-ever nurse practitioner-led clinic in the Sudbury clinic, and she is here today, as well as Rochelle Hatton. Rochelle also practises in my riding, in Atikameksheng Anishnawbek, in Sagamok. Welcome to both of them. They came from far to be with us today.

Hon. Bill Mauro: A few introductions for me: first of all, a nurse practitioner from Thunder Bay, Aaron Medd. Welcome to Aaron. And there are a couple of others from my office here in Toronto, Navneet Singh, and a long-serving assistant of mine from Thunder Bay who has been serving the constituency of Thunder Bay–Atikokan very capably for a very long time—in the members’ west gallery—Sharla Knapton. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Charles Sousa: On behalf of the Honourable Kathleen Wynne, the MPP for Don Valley West, we would like to acknowledge that the page captain today is Alex Wolf. Joining us today are his mother, Margot Wolf, father John Wolf, grandmother Betty Ann Findlay and aunt Jean Halpenny. They’ll be in the public gallery this morning. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. David Orazietti: I want to welcome Debbie Greystone, a nurse practitioner from Sault Ste. Marie, who was instrumental in setting up one of the first nurse practitioner clinics in Ontario.

Mrs. Kathryn McGarry: I’d like to introduce Jeff Mole from Parry Sound and Muskoka, who is joining us today. Welcome.

Mrs. Cristina Martins: I too would like to welcome the Nurse Practitioners’ Association of Ontario, who are here today at Queen’s Park for their lobby day. Ontario’s 2,000 nurse practitioners provide critical and essential care for our province. In particular, I’d like to recognize Gillian Graham, a nurse practitioner from my riding. Welcome.

Mr. Peter Z. Milczyn: I’d like to introduce some wonderful nurse practitioners who are visiting Queen’s Park today: Shirlee O’Connor, Shirley Strachan-Jackman, and a resident of Etobicoke–Lakeshore, Sandra Tully.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: Mr. Speaker, I’m happy to welcome the Ontario Society of Occupational Therapists here this morning. We have Laurie Warren, who is the president of the OSOT; Christie Brenchley, the executive director; and Diane McLaughlin, director.

Ms. Daiene Vernile: I am delighted to welcome nurse practitioner Karen Antoni. She is from St. Joe’s hospital in Hamilton. We had a great informative discussion this morning.

I too would like to recognize the Wolf family, that they are parents of Alex Wolf. Although they are in the Premier’s riding, they are my neighbours across the street at the cottage in Southampton, so: Nice to see you.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I’m very pleased that we have representatives from Whitesand First Nation in the great riding of Thunder Bay–Superior North, including Chief Allan Gustafson of Whitesand First Nation; Craig Toset, business development officer; and David Mackett, community and resource development officer.

Let me also introduce Tammy Laws, who very capably looks after our minister’s office in Thunder Bay. Welcome to all of you.

Mr. Arthur Potts: It gives me great pleasure to recognize Chrissy Orr here with Neil McNeil school—welcome—with the secondary school teachers.

I also have Tim Progosh. Tim is here as a constituent. He’s the founder of the Canadian Comedy Awards, and he is a coach of the Malvern Black Knights. They’re now 5-0.

I’d also like to recognize Christina Ganev, who’s here with East York Collegiate Institute—welcome; nice to see you here—and a couple of nurse practitioners: Jane MacIver, who’s a constituent, and Donna Kearney, who has helped establish a Dorset nurse practitioner school up by my mom’s cottage.

Thank you all. Welcome.

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I would like to welcome to the Legislature here today the nurse practitioners from Kingston and the Islands. I’m so pleased to have you here. I enjoyed our conversation that we had in the office. Thank you.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): You’ll notice that I did exercise a little bit of leeway in terms of introductions, but I do want to come back to all members and ask—almost beg—that in order for us to have all of our guests acknowledged, which I think is important, I’m going to remind you that I request that you just simply introduce them and save the other comments for either members’ statements, ministers’ statements, or during your two-minuters or whatever. This process is effective if we do it that way. I would seek your co-operation in simply making the introduction. Don’t go into explanations in depth, please.

I thank you for your patience in allowing us to introduce our guests, because everyone is a special guest here in this House. I thank you for that co-operation.

It is now time for question period.

Oral Questions

Ring of Fire

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I’d like to start question period off today by congratulating all municipal campaigns yesterday for a fine display of democracy. Also, I’d like to extend my congratulations to three former members of this assembly who won in three of Ontario’s major cities. In my own home city, former cabinet minister Jim Watson was re-elected. In Brampton, a great cabinet minister, Linda Jeffrey, was elected. I congratulate her. And of course, on behalf of the Ontario Progressive Conservatives, our former leader, John Tory, is the new mayor of Toronto.

My first question is to the Minister of Northern Development and Mines. The Ring of Fire should be a beacon of economic growth and prosperity not just for northern Ontario but for all Ontarians. Now, under this Liberal government, it risks going up in smoke.

Over the past decade, I’ve heard countless ministers assure us that they would rebuild this. Why does this government say one thing in their budget about the Ring of Fire and do another thing day-to-day to compromise its success?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: There’s no question that our government is very much leading the way in terms of the development of the Ring of Fire. Particularly over the past year and, may I say, over the last six months, we’ve made very significant progress.

We have put in place the Ring of Fire Infrastructure Development Corp., something that will be tasked with bringing forward all the partners that can make transportation infrastructure decisions that obviously need to be made so that the project can move forward.

We have committed $1 billion to the transportation infrastructure, something that neither of those parties across the floor supported, which we put through in this summer’s budget. That is something that indeed we would love to have your support on—let alone the fact that the federal government should be joining us in matching those particular dollars.

May I say—

Interjection: Hear, hear.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Thank you so much. Let me say also that—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m going to ask the member from Renfrew to come to order.

Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: The fact of the matter is, we have lost jobs in Sudbury, Thunder Bay and Toronto as a result of inaction by your government—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister of Government Services, come to order.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: —as a result of Cliffs pulling out a massive investment in our north.

Among the many reasons for the ongoing failures of the projects in the Ring of Fire is the lack of agreements that have been settled upon between the Liberal government here and First Nations. According to the Globe and Mail last month, in September Cliffs cited that the suspension of the project was due to numerous delays and difficult discussions with the provincial government, including the First Nations communities, who have also said that they have scolded you for ignoring their interests with the new development corporation.

The government talk a good game about economic development, infrastructure renewal, and working with First Nations, but we have seen time and time again over the past decade that you have lost your way on the Ring of Fire.

Will the minister admit this is a $60-billion cut to the economy of this province and to northerners?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: This is a project of great economic development opportunity. The member is right: It’s $60 billion. Materials are in the ground, and we’re looking forward to the opportunity to develop them.

When one speaks about the regional framework agreement, which we signed with the Matawa First Nations, one thing was very clear from the beginning—Premier Wynne made it clear, we made it clear: In order for this project to move forward, we need to get it right. That’s why that regional framework agreement is so vital and why we’re continuing to carry on those discussions—discussions related to regional infrastructure support, discussions related to resource revenue sharing. Those are vital.

The work that we’re doing with industry—I mean, here we are on a day we’re having Meet the Miners in town, because we’re talking about the great opportunities we’re seeing in the mining sector. Certainly the Ring of Fire is a particularly exciting opportunity, but one we absolutely need to get right. That’s our commitment. That’s what we’re going to do. We’d sure love to have your support in that regard.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: The Ring of Fire is turning into the ring of smoke because of seven years of inaction by this Liberal government. It’s disappointing that there has been such little advancement on something so incredibly important—the economic development and economic growth of this province.

Former Premier Dalton McGuinty once heralded this project as “the most promising mining opportunity” the country has seen in a century. Yet to date, it seems we are nowhere near realizing a $60-billion investment in our province.

Does the minister understand that the most expensive spending scandal in Ontario today is not eHealth; it is not Ornge; it isn’t even the gas plants? It’s the mismanagement of the $60-billion Ring of Fire project. Does he understand that?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: This is a project that’s moving forward in a very significant way. We’ve got a development corporation we put in place, a development corporation that, again, is tasked to bring together all the partners to make the infrastructure decisions that are so vital. This is an economic development opportunity in a part of the province that’s never seen development before, a very remote part of the province. We need to get it right.

We got the development corporation up in place. We’re working very, very closely with the First Nations to make sure that, indeed, they see benefits and value from that project.

May I say once again, Speaker, this is the government that made a $1-billion commitment to the infrastructure, not matched by anybody, not supported by that party. So while they can stand over there and speak this way, they’re not in any way supporting a project that we know will be of tremendous value and benefit to Ontarians for generations to come.

Power plants

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: My question is to the government House leader. This week, the President of the Treasury Board will be putting forward a bill for greater transparency and accountability, which your government deemed a priority when it took power earlier this year.

In the spirit of transparency, will the government House leader support tomorrow’s opposition motion calling for the last two witnesses, Laura Miller and Peter Faist, to appear before the justice committee before report writing begins?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I thank the member opposite for the question.

Speaker, as you are aware, on June 12 our party, our government, received a very strong mandate from the people of Ontario. Part of that mandate was to make sure that we put in place some very key pieces of legislation—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville’s timing is not very good, because I just asked for order, and then you talked. So that’s one.

Carry on.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, thank you.

Part of our mandate that we received from the people of Ontario is to make sure that we put into place—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew, come to order.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: —some very important pieces of legislation that died on the order paper, things like reducing auto insurance, making sure that we index minimum wage to cost of living and, of course, ensuring that we’ve got both public sector and MPP transparency. All those bills are going to the House, and we’re looking forward to their speedy passage.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: It’s unfortunate, that response, given the fact that today the Premier was heralded in the Toronto Star for saying she and Tory “share a talent for grown-up conduct that transcends partisan rivalries.” The problem is, just four short months ago your government said, “Your government knows that trust is hard-earned, but easily lost.”

Whatever capital the government earned on election day will be lost if two key witnesses do not appear before the justice committee. If the government prevents Laura Miller and Peter Faist from appearing before the justice committee, it would be fair comment to say their commitment to transparency is weak and their break from the McGuinty era is just a show.

I ask again: Will the government House leader do the honourable thing and allow the committee to complete its work by bringing in Laura Miller and Peter Faist?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I think, in this House, I have spoken on a regular basis about the need for the justice committee to complete its work. We have spoken about the fact that we want the justice committee to resume its work so that they can provide guidance to the government when it comes to issues around the siting of large energy infrastructure and the kind of things they’ve been looking for.

Speaker, that is why we have initiated that process, and we urge the opposition parties to work in a constructive way so that the committee can finish its work. One of the clear messages that we received from Ontarians is that they do not want any more grandstanding and political stalling in this Legislature. They want all members to work together, and what we’re seeing right now in the committee is the opposition party yet again grandstanding and stalling the work of the committee.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Whether it’s the lost opportunity at the Ring of Fire or preventing the justice committee from completing its work with the last two witnesses, it is clear that you are breaching Ontarians’ trust. It’s so disappointing that it’s happening so near the beginning of your mandate.

The throne speech said, and I quote to you, “And to ensure that its decisions are always made responsibly, openly and in the best interests of Ontarians, your government will take steps to allow the justice committee to write its report.” Without listening to the last two key witnesses, that report will be incomplete.

In the past four months, your government has touted openness and responsibility. What’s changed?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, I thank the member opposite for making my point by quoting the speech from the throne. It says exactly that we want the justice committee to resume its work so it can start writing the report. What’s happening right now is that the opposition is doing the polar opposite. They say one thing but they do the other when it is in the committee, which is that they’re stalling a very simple, procedural motion that will allow the justice committee to resume its work when it comes to the matter that it was looking at, in terms of the gas plants, before the election was called.

By not letting that procedural motion go through, they’re actually undermining their own efforts to make sure that the justice committee can get its work done and Ontarians can get answers when it comes to recommendations that the committee could make, by the work they’ve done for the last two and half years listening to about 90 witnesses.

Privatization of public assets

Ms. Catherine Fife: My question is to the Acting Premier.

Yesterday, New Democrats asked three very simple questions about why the Liberals are choosing to open new HST tax loopholes at the same time as they say the cupboard is bare, that they have to sell off parts of our hydro system. We got a lot of bluster; we didn’t get an answer. That’s becoming the norm in this place.

Does this Liberal government think it is progressive to create new tax loopholes for the wealthiest corporations in the province of Ontario at the same time as moving ahead with Harris-style privatization of our utilities?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Before I answer that question, yesterday I joined with the rest of this House in congratulating people right across Ontario—over 2,800 council members and 700 trustees were elected. Thousands more put their name forward. I know I speak on behalf of the Premier in saying that we’re going to work closely with those elected officials. I congratulate the voters as well for participating and making history yesterday.

In regard to the question, I think the question started off by talking about tax loopholes. What she makes reference to is a restricted tax input credit, which is not a tax loophole. In fact, the only loophole is in her reasoning and her logic. We are continuing to do what’s necessary to make us competitive and dynamic, and we’re going to continue to do so by providing one of the most historic value-added tax systems that makes our businesses competitive, grows our economy and employs people. That is how we move forward.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Ms. Catherine Fife: Perhaps the problem is that the minister doesn’t actually understand what a loophole is. Let’s look at the Liberal plan. They say that they need money to invest in transit, even though they have created another loophole in their own Trillium Trust and haven’t dedicated a nickel thus far to transit.

The Liberals’ plan is to privatize local hydro utilities. It does help energy speculators, but means that people are on the hook for paying private power profits on top of skyrocketing hydro bills. At the same time, the Liberals are creating brand new HST loopholes. It puts even more into the pockets of the wealthiest corporations but leaves the rest of us falling behind. Can the Acting Premier explain why the so-called progressive plan is squarely focused on helping Bay Street and not the people of this province?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Mr. Speaker, it’s all about investing in our future: $29 billion is dedicated to transit over the next 10 years—the members opposite voted against that; it’s also another $100 billion more in infrastructure spending over the next 10 years—they voted against that as well.

The Trillium Trust was established in the fall economic statement of 2013 to enable us to dedicate those funds that would come from any assets or any other issues that were sold, that would be a parked in that fund—dedicated to transit. That is what’s been put forward.

When we talk about loopholes and tax credits, the very nature of their question suggests that we shouldn’t be competitive, and we must. There are things with regard to the CRA and the federal government that prohibit some of what she is asking us to do.

What we will do is provide for revenue integrity and continue to invest the money—taxpayers’ money—into our infrastructure.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Ms. Catherine Fife: Perhaps the problem is that the finance minister doesn’t understand what “dedicated” means, because he certainly avoided the entire premise of that.

Instead of closing HST loopholes that would put money in the Treasury Board every year starting in 2015—you need money for transit, close the loopholes—why do the Liberals think it makes more sense to privatize hydro for some short-term cash when they could start by closing planned HST loopholes and create long-term stability for this province?

Hon. Charles Sousa: There are no tax loopholes. In fact, what we are doing is finding greater integrity by looking—and we made it very clear in the budget—at finding ways to review our tax credits, review our grants, which she makes reference to as an HST component of a restricted tax input, which is not a loophole.

What she doesn’t also recognize—and I fear that the third party doesn’t recognize—is the importance of investing in public transit. They didn’t do that; they don’t see that as being a priority. We know it is. We’ll continue to invest. We’ve dedicated the funding; that is clear. It’s been in the budget, and we’ll move forward for the benefit of the people of Ontario.

Government consultants

Ms. Catherine Fife: Again, my question is to the Acting Premier. I tried this question yesterday and I didn’t get an answer. The government directly employs 3,600 qualified IT professionals. Over the last five years, the portion of the government’s IT budget being outsourced to the private sector has increased by 63%. Why is the government expanding its use of private IT firms when a 2012 consultant’s report, commissioned by the Ministry of Government Services, found that several IT services cost two to three times more when provided by the private sector?

Hon. Charles Sousa: As I responded to you yesterday, IT consultants do help the government to provide the services and programs Ontarians need in a cost-effective, efficient and convenient way. We’re living in the Internet age, and Ontarians expect their government to be accessible digitally.

We have a strong record of reducing the use of consultants across the government. As we said yesterday, we need IT consultants when the capacity of our expertise does not exist within the Ontario public service. We turn to IT consultants when we need to gain external advice and specialized expertise.

They feel they have all the answers within. We recognize that we need to partner with the private sector in order to achieve what’s best.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Catherine Fife: What the minister doesn’t understand is that IT outsourcing costs more, not less. During the 2013-14 fiscal year alone, the government spent $703 million on private sector IT services. This includes hiring 1,479 fee-for-service consultants at a total cost of $131 million. Many of these private IT contractors perform the same tasks as the IT staff currently employed directly by the government, except they cost two to three times more.

Significantly reducing private outsourcing of IT could save this government $200 million. It’s almost like you are wilfully wasting money. When will this government reverse its policy of outsourcing IT and admit that it is a wasteful and expensive approach that results in hundreds of millions of wasted dollars every single year?

Hon. Charles Sousa: When the need is short term and non-recurring, like the one-time projects to get new programs up and running for cyber security upgrades, we have used IT consultants.

Since 2003, a total of 1,519 consultant positions government-wide have been approved for conversion to OPS staff positions, resulting in ongoing savings of approximately $60 million a year, and of those converted positions, 1,335 were IT consultants.

We recently received approval to convert an additional 90 IT consulting positions to full-time equivalents. This will result in a further $3.6 million in annual savings at maturity.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Catherine Fife: When you follow the money, you follow the real priorities of the government. When we follow the money, we see that you are dedicated to private IT over the OPS. No doubt about it.

Not only does outsourcing IT services end up costing more, but the government staff get poorer IT service. For example, government IT staff who used to upgrade hundreds of servers that power government computers are now required to provide upgrading instructions to the hourly private contractors instead of doing it themselves. Government service upgrades are now delayed because private contractors don’t work on the weekends or evenings. So you have hundreds of millions of dollars being wasted, reduced IT support for government services and, ultimately, lower-quality services for the people of this province.

Will this government admit that outsourcing IT has been a huge mistake and change course now?

Hon. Charles Sousa: We need to make upgrades. They’re automatic, and they require some support from the IT sector, and so be it. But we’re managing our use of consultants through a three-pronged approach: (1) by transferring work to government staff, which is the normal course, (2) by creating a central pool of government IT staff to work on government-wide projects, and (3) by centralizing the acquisition of IT consultant services. The central mobile pool of IT staff introduced in 2009 now saves the government $10 million per year. So follow the money.

Casino Thousand Islands

Mr. Steve Clark: Good morning. My question is to the Acting Premier. In yesterday’s municipal election referendum, the people of Kingston gave a very clear message to your government. Almost 70% of them said no to a casino. So on behalf of the residents of Kingston and also those in my riding—in Gananoque, Leeds and the Thousand Islands, who are willing casino hosts—we want to know one thing. They want to hear you say that the government’s plans to relocate the Thousand Islands casino to Kingston is off the table. Is it?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Mr. Speaker, I too want to congratulate Bryan Paterson and David Ryan on their successful election last night.

We’ve always maintained that municipalities need to make their own decisions about whether they support establishing a gaming site. I’ve been consistent throughout. Municipalities and their leaders have an important role in gauging their residents’ views on gaming sites in their communities, and the government will not impose the location of a gaming site on a municipality. We will respect Kingston’s desire not to do so.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): No.

Supplementary.

Mr. Steve Clark: You’re waiting for it, right? Thank you, Minister, for that answer.

I know that the people I represent in Leeds, the Thousand Islands and Gananoque are very interested in working with the government on not just keeping the site in the Thousand Islands but also expanding on it. So I appreciate the answer.

Now I’d like to know—because I know that my local councils that were elected last night want to hear this: What are the next steps in expanding the casino and creating more jobs in Leeds–Grenville?

Hon. Charles Sousa: The next step is to continue investing for our future—not cutting and certainly not getting rid of 100,000 people’s jobs. We’ll continue to do what’s necessary there.

Pickering has voted that they wish to proceed with establishing a gaming site. We look forward to continuing to work with the municipality of Pickering and the OLG to move forward with the next steps. OLG provides over $2 billion a year in revenue. That goes directly towards supporting schools, hospitals and the services Ontarians rely upon in Kingston and elsewhere. We’ll continue to be committed to modernizing gaming in Ontario in a socially responsible manner—only in those municipalities that have decided to approve one.

Environmental protection

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is to the Minister of the Environment. A few weeks ago, we learned that Enbridge failed to install shut-off valves at 95% of the major water crossings along the route of its Line 9 pipeline. These were a condition of project approval. Now Enbridge says that it doesn’t need to install these valves. This is the same company that allowed one million gallons of tar sands oil to spill into the Kalamazoo River.

Ever since the federal government gutted environmental protection two years ago, we’ve seen a culture of impunity grow within Canada’s oil and gas sector. Will the provincial government fill this vacuum and conduct a full environmental assessment of the Line 9 project?

Hon. Glen R. Murray: I will certainly be happy to meet with the member opposite, to fully hear your concerns on this. This is an issue that has been of great concern to the government of Ontario. The minister who has been dealing with this matter has been the Minister of Energy, my colleague, and he has spoken in the House before about our concerns about the management of this.

The Ministry of the Environment, Mr. Speaker, recognizes that we are moving more chemicals and more fuels. We do that either by marine or by truck or by rail. Pipeline has been one of the safest ways in which we have been moving important fuel and important chemicals that we need to sustain our economy.

We just had a spill outside of Sault Ste. Marie because a rail car went off the rail and dumped a lot of diesel. We have to make sure that we have a—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Well, Speaker, I would have appreciated a “yes,” but I’ll go to my supplementary.

Enbridge has also refused to be bound by the proposed pipeline provisions of the new Lake Ontario source water plans because the ministry has not yet made them mandatory. So not only has Enbridge thumbed its nose at federal regulators, it’s also trying to dodge provincial environmental protection.

Will the provincial government regulate pipelines under the Clean Water Act and make sure that Enbridge upholds the letter and the spirit of the proposed new Lake Ontario source water protection plan?

Hon. Glen R. Murray: On the issue of source water, which is my responsibility, of the 19 plans, I think 11 of them are approved. This is a process based on local knowledge through our source water protection act, which means that, for the first time in Ontario’s history, we protect source water, which also covers things like highways, rail lines and pipelines. We do local risks assessment to make sure that we have the protections in place. By the end of next year, we will have all of those source water protection plans approved, giving Ontarians the highest level of protection for source water from this and other matters.

This government has a very proud record on environmental protection. It has raised the standard. I want to thank the member from St. Catharines, who really did most of the work that I’m standing here offering up some credit for.

Energy policies

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: My question is for the Minister of Energy. Minister, Ontario has placed a strong priority on the phasing out and elimination of coal-fired electricity generation. This was discussed very positively and very frequently during the elections by the constituents of Kingston and the Islands. In fact, it will come as no surprise to the members that we are the first jurisdiction in North America to eliminate coal as a source of electricity production.

You have previously informed the House that replacing coal-fired generation with clean, affordable and reliable generation has saved the province approximately $4.4 billion in avoided health and environmental costs. The people of Ontario are certainly grateful for the results of our government’s initiative in fighting climate change and reducing pollution—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Stop the clock, please. Your time is up. However, I’m looking at two people whose seats are empty where they normally sit, and they’re talking too much.

Minister of Energy.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Mr. Speaker, the question has to do with to what extent Ontario is partnering with other provinces moving forward. I thank the member from Kingston and the Islands for the question. Ontario has been actively participating in the Council of the Federation’s initiative to develop a Canadian Energy Strategy, or CES. Ontario supports the development of a CES that is reflective of the priorities of all jurisdictions and addresses common energy challenges.

All provinces and territories are now participating in the development of a national strategy. It was established to address issues of energy demand, diversity of supply, access to new markets, and climate change. Ontario is focused on ensuring that the CES addresses improved access to affordable, clean, renewable and reliable supplies of energy for all Canadians, including those living in aboriginal and remote communities. A national energy strategy has been long overdue.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I’m grateful to hear of this intergovernmental collaboration and co-operation on the Canadian energy strategy. I know that everyone in this House knows and appreciates the importance of working with all levels of governments and jurisdictions.

The constituents of Kingston and the Islands will be pleased to hear of the CES and how it not only will work to strengthen the economy and create jobs, but will address climate change and the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. I’m certain that Ontario’s collaboration with all provinces and territories regarding our energy resources, conservation and emerging technologies will lead to improved, clean access to reliable and affordable energy.

Could the minister please elaborate as to how the Canadian Energy Strategy will work to strengthen our economy and how it will foster increased collaboration?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: The Canadian Energy Strategy will express a renewed vision that describes the kind of energy future that all Canadians aspire to achieve and will promote the export of energy, expertise and innovation. All provinces and territories will work together in order to grow the economy, protect the environment, mitigate climate change, create new opportunities and enhance the quality of life for all Canadians.

The CES will foster the development of pan-Canadian, regional and bilateral agreements on energy development, transmission and transportation.

We will continue to work with our provincial partners on this initiative and we look forward to the revised submission of a Canadian energy strategy at the 2015 Council of the Federation. We’re proud that Premier Wynne is showing leadership nationally on this issue.

Cancer screening

Mr. Michael Harris: My question is to the Minister of Health. Minister, the new PSA testing guidelines from the Canadian Task Force on Preventive Health Care have everybody talking. Specifically, Prostate Cancer Canada is reminding us that when performed appropriately, the benefits of PSA screening far outweigh the negatives, noting that metastatic prostate cancer cases would double and related deaths would increase up to 20% without the screening.

Minister, Prostate Cancer Canada is advocating smart screening to avert the concerns highlighted by the task force and lead to more effective testing, tracking, and, if needed, treatment.

Eight out of 10 provinces pay for this important cancer-detection tool. Ontario is, in fact, one of only two that force men to pay out of their own pocket.

Minister, why do men in Ontario not have equal access to a cancer test that could potentially save their lives?

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I appreciate the opportunity to respond to the question. It’s because we follow good scientific evidence, plain and simple. In fact, the national recommendations that just came out yesterday speak precisely to that.

It’s not simply about the ability of the test at times to detect cancer; it’s also looking at the risk of morbidity and mortality for what are known as false positives, where the test proves to be positive, but prostate-specific antigen is something which is naturally occurring in the body, and if you have what’s known as a false positive, where the test is positive and in fact you don’t have cancer, that could lead you down a pathway where you get unnecessary, even harmful and sometimes fatal, surgery.

What’s important here is to make sure that solid national recommendations that we’re following here in Ontario are based on scientific evidence and that we follow the guidance of the experts who are brought together specifically for this purpose.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Michael Harris: Minister, men across Ontario are asking why they’re left to foot the bill for a test that could save their lives. They recall—I recall former Premier McGuinty, on local radio, saying it would be covered, and while I’ve warned them about the Liberal government’s track record on keeping promises, they’re still waiting.

Bottom line, Minister: New guidelines do nothing to change the fact that PSA testing is still an important early detection tool, and Ontario men want the choice before examining options such as further observation or treatment.

Minister, will you keep a Liberal promise to fund PSA testing for men here in Ontario?

Hon. Eric Hoskins: I think I should be very clear that we do offer PSA testing for men in this province who have symptoms that may be due to prostate cancer. We also offer it free through OHIP, as I just mentioned, for individuals who require it for monitoring, so if perhaps they have had prostate cancer and are being treated for it. What the member opposite is trying to do is to move against the scientific evidence and do routine screening of men who have absolutely no symptoms of prostate cancer.

As a physician, I understand where we need to provide this test: a PSA test for monitoring individuals who have or have had prostate cancer, or those who present symptoms that could be consistent. We offer that test; we offer it free of charge. The test is available for those individuals who choose to pay for it if they are entirely asymptomatic from any symptoms that are consistent with prostate cancer. I would hope the member opposite would agree with that policy.

First responders

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: My question is to the Minister of Labour. I think all members of this House would agree that the events of the past week in Ottawa have demonstrated, once again, the enormously important role that police and other first responders play in protecting our safety and our security.

In the opinion of New Democrats, there would be no better way for this House to show its gratitude and respect for those first responders than to pass my Bill 2, on post-traumatic stress disorder and the WSIB. If passed, the presumptive legislation would mean that it would be presumed that front-line responders suffering from PTSD acquired the illness on the job and therefore are eligible for WSIB benefits.

Will this government commit to passing presumptive legislation with regard to PTSD now so that our first responders get the help they need immediately?

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Let me thank the member for the courtesy she has extended by asking this question. I think it’s a question that’s of interest to all members of this House. I think we all agree that we owe to our first responders our best efforts when it comes to putting the best legislation in place to deal with the emerging issue of post-traumatic stress disorder, and mental health in general, in the workplace.

What we’ve done in the past 24 months is, we’ve had a round table at the Ministry of Labour. We brought all the first responders together—people from policing, firefighting, emergency medical services, transit services, and health care services, including nurses. They’ve given us their best advice as to how to deal with PTSD. I agree that dealing with the WSIB component of that is a major part of that, and I commit to working with you to make sure we implement the best possible.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Back to the minister: He heard from all of those first responders that their major demand is exactly this presumptive legislation, so I’m going to ask again on their behalf. Our first responders need presumptive legislation passed now—not more round tables, not just a conference in 2015.

I ask again: Will the government commit today to passing presumptive legislation with regard to PTSD for first responders?

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thank you, again, to the member from Parkdale–High Park for her supplementary. What I will commit to is to investigate every possible way of addressing this. There are other jurisdictions in Canada, for example, that have a different way of dealing with this. Alberta, for example, I think has made some changes as late as 2012 in the way that we deal with it. We’re taking a very, very serious look at what you’ve proposed in Bill 2.

Let me tell you what we are doing. We’ve committed about $4.5 million to the OPP to deal with mental health issues. The Office of the Fire Marshal is now providing PTSD training to all its fire investigators. The Ontario Fire College is also implementing a mental health awareness course.

Speaker, I think we all have a role to play in this. I commit to the member, I commit to this House, that we’re going to do the best possible for the people who protect us.

Long-term care

Ms. Daiene Vernile: My question is to the Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care and wellness.

Minister, we are all aware that the population of our seniors is growing very rapidly. One of our government’s top priorities is ensuring that our seniors are living healthier, safer and more secure lives. However, in light of yesterday’s fire and evacuation at Fairview Lodge in Whitby, we know about the need for long-term-care homes to meet the highest safety standards, including the mandatory sprinkler systems.

I know that we have committed in our budget to helping operators accelerate their redevelopment. I’d like to know from the minister what she is doing to follow up on this very important commitment.

Hon. Dipika Damerla: Thanks to the member from Kitchener Centre for this very important and timely question.

I’d like to begin by saying that our thoughts are with the families and all 192 residents of Fairview Lodge. I’d also like to begin by thanking the staff and first responders, who worked so hard and so swiftly to ensure the safety of all 192 residents in yesterday’s fire at Fairview Lodge.

We were relieved to learn that all residents had been evacuated without injury, and the ministry is working closely with the LHIN and the CCAC to ensure residents remain safe and cared for.

Ontario was the first province to make sprinklers mandatory in existing licensed long-term-care homes. Now we have committed to redeveloping older homes to ensure they meet modern standards of safety and comfort. That is why this morning, I was at the fall symposium of the OLTCA, the Ontario Long Term Care Association, to talk about our plan for redevelopment, which I’ll address in the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Daiene Vernile: I’m very pleased to hear that the minister is moving forward with this very important budget commitment.

I know that this government has already had lots of good news to report on long-term-care homes, like increasing funding by 86% since 2003, like funding over 8,000 new full-time front-line workers, and we’ve opened more than 10,000 new long-term-care beds.

But this commitment to push ahead with the redevelopment of 30,000 beds over 10 years is very ambitious. What is the minister doing to make sure that this very aggressive redevelopment stays on track?

Hon. Dipika Damerla: Thanks again to the member for that supplementary. I’d like to begin by saying that this morning, I was at the Ontario Long Term Care Association’s fall symposium, where we officially announced that we will be moving forward with redevelopment of 30,000 beds in 300 homes.

Over the summer, I had the opportunity to visit a number of long-term-care facilities, because I believe direct engagement is a great approach to transforming the sector. This is what underlies our approach to redevelopment.

We are bringing forward these changes after consultation with key stakeholders in the sector. We listened, and now we are ready to take the next step to ensure successful redevelopment. For example, we will be increasing the construction funding subsidy by up to $4.73 per resident per day. We have also extended the maximum LTC home licence from 25 years to 30 years.

I look forward to a very successful redevelopment.

Pan Am Games

Ms. Laurie Scott: My question is for the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Sport. When it comes to the Pan/Parapan Am Games, your government has said the games are expected to attract more than 250,000 tourists. But a recent report released by the Greater Toronto Hotel Association says that they only expect that 10% of attendees will require hotel accommodation.

Minister, can you explain the large discrepancy between your numbers and the industry’s projections?

Hon. Michael Coteau: I’d like to thank the member for the question.

There’s something incredible taking place in this province, and there’s a spirit that has captured this province for the Pan Am—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Chatham–Kent–Essex will come to order.

Please.

Hon. Michael Coteau: In fact, yesterday, I had the opportunity to visit the University of Toronto. They have a new stadium, the Goldring stadium, that will host basketball and volleyball during the Pan Am Games for—

Mr. John Yakabuski: Is anybody staying there?

Hon. Michael Coteau: It will host volleyball and basketball during the games as a test venue.

In fact, two thirds of that money was raised by the local community and the Goldring family. Our government put in one third of that money. It’s an incredible testament to what is happening in this province.

We’re going to have 250,000 people from across the Americas and across this country visit Ontario next year. And in fact—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Very well done. I appreciate that.

Supplementary?

Ms. Laurie Scott: Minister, I mean, really, put the pom poms away. It shows that a significant component of all attendees will be local or regional. This means that the people in Ontario will not only be stuck with the bill for the games themselves, but it will not be the international tourism draw that you are selling it as.

Minister, we are now less than a year away from the games. They’re supposed to be a way to showcase Ontario to an international audience. The games will create only a 0.7% impact for the hotel industry. How are we going to showcase Ontario when nobody wants to come?

Hon. Michael Coteau: You know, it’s interesting. On this side of the House and right across this province, people are standing behind the Pan Am Games and the Parapan Am Games. It’s that party opposite that constantly continues to put down our athletes. In fact, the critic on the opposite side said that these were second-tier games and that no one should be cheering for these games.

We are going to cheer for our athletes. We’re going to cheer for Ontario. We’re going to cheer for Canadians. We believe that the 7,000 athletes that will be here, the 23,000 volunteers, the 15 new builds and 10 new facilities are a testament to the investment we’ve made on this side of the House. Ontario believes in what we’re doing and they stand behind what these games represent.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

New question.

Long-term care

Ms. Cindy Forster: My question is to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. People in my riding are worried that 75 non-profit, long-term-care beds at the Niagara Health System will be sold off to a private operator looking to turn a profit. The Liberals have a record of privatizing health services every time they get a chance. But in Welland, we believe that quality health care for our seniors should come before profits.

I wrote the minister three weeks ago, asking for a guarantee that these non-profit beds would not be sold off to the highest corporate bidder, but I’ve heard nothing but silence from this minister. So I’m asking again: Will the minister commit today to stop the sale of Welland’s long-term-care beds to a for-profit operator?

Hon. Eric Hoskins: To the Associate Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Associate Minister?

Hon. Dipika Damerla: I thank the member opposite for the question. I want to assure her that we’re committed to making Ontario the best place for seniors to age. That includes ensuring that our long-term-care facilities are the best facilities.

I also want to reassure the member opposite that, indeed, the not-for-profit sector plays a very important role when it comes to running long-term-care homes. They bring a particular lens that is very, very valuable. I can assure her that working with the non-profit sector in the long-term-care sector continues to be a priority.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Ms. Cindy Forster: This Liberal government has actually been working with the Niagara Health System in secret to sell off these beds. Offers from well-respected non-profit operators in my municipality have been made and rejected.

The people of Welland do not want to lose our 75 long-term-care beds at our local hospital for a private, for-profit scheme cooked up in the backrooms of the ministry. This is not open and transparent. We don’t want Welland to be another failed experiment in privatization that reduces quality of care to our seniors.

Will the minister make it crystal clear today that he will use his authority under the Long-Term Care Homes Act to step in and reject any proposed sale of Welland’s non-profit long-term-care beds to the for-profit sector?

Hon. Dipika Damerla: I don’t know why the member can’t take yes for an answer. I said we are committed to ensuring that we have a robust not-for-profit long-term-care sector in the province.

I also want to talk about a very important announcement that we made today that speaks to the importance that we place on the long-term-care sector, and that is the redevelopment of 30,000 beds and 300 homes here in Ontario. This is going to be one of the largest redevelopment projects for the long-term-care sector, including the not-for-profit sector. I look forward to working with you to make sure that we have a robust for-profit and a robust not-for-profit long-term-care sector.

Small business

Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde: My question is to the Associate Minister of Finance. When I was speaking with members from the Orléans Chamber of Commerce and local representatives from CFIB, they expressed concerns about the impact of our Ontario Retirement Pension Plan on small business.

Many businesses I have spoken with do acknowledge that we have an under-saving problem. They know that Ontarians are not saving enough for retirement. In the long run, we know that this will be bad for Ontarians and bad for business. I also understand that our government has been working with businesses and taking several steps to ensure that we support small businesses as we move forward with the implementation of the Ontario Retirement Pension Plan.

Could the minister please inform the House what specific steps our government has taken to ensure that small and medium-sized businesses are able to plan and adapt as we move forward?

Hon. Mitzie Hunter: I want to thank the honourable member from Ottawa–Orléans for her question.

The Ontario Retirement Pension Plan is an investment in a secure retirement future for all Ontarians. That’s not just individuals but businesses as well. Without action today on retirement security, this has the potential to stagnate growth and create economic uncertainty.

The cost of inaction is far too high. We need to take leadership now. That’s why we’re taking steps to help businesses plan, including: introduction in 2017 to coincide with reductions in EI premiums; employers will be enrolled in stages, starting with the largest employers; and contributions will be phased in over two years.

I’ve also been working with and listening to businesses, including several meetings with the Ontario Chamber of Commerce and local chambers and other business groups. I look forward to continuing to work with business to minimize the short-term impact and help them plan for the implementation of the ORPP.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde: Thank you to the minister for that response. My constituents in Ottawa–Orléans will be pleased to learn what our government is doing to help businesses across the province plan for the introduction of the Ontario Retirement Pension Plan.

Again to the Associate Minister of Finance: We know that the Ontario Retirement Pension Plan is an enhancement to our economy in the long run. The ORPP, however, is not being introduced in isolation. This is just one of the ways in which our government is helping to grow our economy and create a competitive business climate.

Mr. Speaker, through you to the minister: Could you please inform the House what else our government is doing to promote our province’s continued economic competitiveness?

Hon. Mitzie Hunter: Thank you again to the honourable member from Ottawa–Orléans for the question.

Our government is continuing to work to strengthen our economy today while making the necessary decisions to ward off problems we see on the horizon. Since the recession, our government has created over half a million net new jobs. In September alone we saw an increase of 24,700 jobs across the province. The Premier and all my colleagues are working very hard to foster a competitive business climate and promote Ontario’s continued economic growth.

We’ve introduced several business tax reforms that will deliver over $9 billion in tax cuts annually to business and enhance Ontario’s competitiveness, such as the HST, eliminating capital tax and cutting corporate income tax rates for small and large businesses. We’ve also eased the regulatory burden on businesses by removing 80,000 regulatory requirements.

These reforms are positioning Ontario as one of the most attractive business locations in the industrialized world for new business investment.

Child care

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: My question is for the Minister of Education. Minister, by now you know from both the general public and the Ombudsman that your ministry has done a terrible job in the oversight of the Ontario daycare system. Even Bill 10 is seriously flawed, with many loopholes, because you tried to get it out in front of the Ombudsman’s report.

Tens of thousands of private daycare spaces will be eliminated without any consultation whatsoever with the private daycare operators. Mr. Speaker, I want to make the point clear that the private daycare operators have no problem with licensing, oversight or a registry.

Minister, will you stand in the House today and agree that you will allow province-wide committee hearings after second reading debate?

Hon. Liz Sandals: We keep hearing these references to the damage that Bill 10 is going to do and what our transformation is going to do, but I would point out that the Ombudsman in his report, in fact, congratulated our ministry for working with his staff. He said, “Here are 113 re