Manitoba Hansard — 13 March 1963 (Sitting 13, 27th Legislature, 1st Session)

27-1-13

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Wednesday, March 13, 1963. Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills HON. ROBERT SMELLIE (Minister of Municipal Affairs)(Birtle-Russell) introduced Bill No. 9, .an Act to Amend the Municipal Boundaries Act, and Bill No. 6,

an Act to amend The Municipal Board Act. HON. OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour)(Osborne) introduced Bill No. 36,

an Act to amend The Apprenticeship Act. . HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture)(Rockwood-Iberville): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the fol lowing proposed resolution.s: Hon. Mr. HUTTON -

WHEREAS a Special Committee of the House was appointed at the Third Session of the 26th Legislature on the 14th day of April, 1961, to study and enquire into all phases of the livestock marketing system in the Province of Manitoba. AND

WHEREAS the said Special Committee of the House was reappointed at the Fourth Session of the 26th Legislature on the 17th day of October, 1961, for the same purposes and with the same powers and the same members being Mr. SHEWMAN, Chairman, Messrs. WEm, Geo. Wm. JOHNSON (Assiniboia), ROBERTS, and WAGNER. AND

WHEREAS the said Special Committee of the House was reappointed at the Fifth Session of the 26th Legislature on the 12th day of March, 1962, for the same purposes and with the same powers and the following members, being Mr. SHEWMAN, Chairman, Messrs. Geo. Wm. JOHNSON (Assiniboia), ROBERTS, WAGNER, and WATT. AND

WHEREAS by virtue of a resolution passed in the House on April 27th, 1962, Mr. DOW replaced Mr. ROBERTS as a member of the Special Committee of the House to enquire into all phases of the livestock marketing system in the Province of Manitoba. AND

WHEREAS by virtue of the dissolution of the 26th Legislature on November 9th, 1962, the Special Committee of the House, appointed at the Fifth Session of the 26th Legisla ture, on March 12th, 1962, to study and enquire into all phases of the livestock marketing system in the Province of Manitoba was also dissolved. THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED: 1. THAT the Special Committee of the House appointed at the Third Session of the 26th Legislature, to study and enquire into all phases of the livestock marketing system in the Pro vince of Manitoba, and reconstituted and reappointed at the Fourth and Fifth Sessions of the 26th Legislature, be now reappointed and reconstituted for the same purpose and with the same . powers as set out in the resolutions passed at the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Sessions of the 26th Legislature, appointing and reappointing the said Committee. 2.

THAT the said Special Committee shall consist of the following persons, namely: Mr. SHEWMAN, Chairman, Messrs. MOELLER, SCHREYER, SHOEMAKER and WATT. AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED: THAT this Special Committee of the House shall have power to sit during the present Ses sion, and in recess, after prorogation, and to report to this House on the matters referred to them at this Session or at the next Session of the Legislature.

AND THAT the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund, to the members of the said Committee, the amount of expenses incurred by the members in at tending the sittings of the committee, or expenses incurred by the members in the performan ces of duties ordered by the committee, in recess, after prorogation, as are deemed neces sary by the Comptroller-General. AND THAT the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund, March 13th, 1963 Page 199

the expenses of counsel, secretaries, technical advisers, accountants, clerks, stenographers, and investigators to aid and assist said committee in the enquiry, and to print the evidence, proceedings and documents received by the committee during the Session or after prorqgation as are deemed necessary by the Comptroller-General. Hon. Mr. LYON-

WHEREAS all self-governing members of the British Commonwealth of Nations except Canada have the power to amend their respective Constitutions without reference to the Parlia ment of the United Kingdom. AND

WHEREAS for many years successive Governments of Canada and of the several Provinces have given consideration to the desirability and the method of amending the Constitu tion of Canada, without the necessity of petitioning the Parliament of the United Kingdom to en act the legislation required; AND

WHEREAS the Honourable the Minister of Justice for Canada and the Attorney-Gen eral of the Provinces, at the invitation of the Honourable the Minister of Justice for Canada have since the month of September, 1960, met in conferences from time to time with the object of formulating a procedure whereby the amendment of the_ Constitution of Canada might be do miciled in Canada and without recourse to the Parliament of the United Kingdom; AND

WHEREAS it appeared that there was unanimous agreement on the desirability of establishing an amending procedure as aforesaid, and thereby achieving this important meas ure of national self determination for Canada; AND

WHEREAS it was found possible to reconcile in part some of the divergencies in views of the Provinces and to adopt in principle for presentation and consideration by the sev eral Provincial Legislatures a draft of legislation that, if enacted by the United Kingdom Par liament, would achieve the objective desired; AND

WHEREAS as a result of the deliberations of the Conferences between the Honourable the Minister of Justice for Canada and the Honourable the Attorneys-General of the several Provinces, the draft of

an Act to be known as the Constitution of Canada Amendment Act set out in

Schedule A to this resolution, was prepared, embodying im amending procedure, and was submitted to the several Provinces for their approval; AND

WHEREAS in the opinion of this House it is in the public interest and in the interest of the citizens of Manitoba that the power to amend the Constitution of Canada should be domi ciled in Canada; AND

WHEREAS the matter of the draft of

an Act to be known as the Constitution of Cana da Amendment Act as set out in

Schedule "A" to this resolution was referred to the Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders for consideration on May 1st, 1962 during the Fifth session of the Twenty-Sixth Legislature of our Province; AND

WHEREAS the Twenty-sixth Legislature of our Province was dissolved by virtue of a Proclamation of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor on the ninth day of November, 1962; AND

WHEREAS the Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders by virtue of the dissolution of the Legislature was unable to complete consideration of this matter; AND

WHEREAS it is now advisable to refer this matter again to the Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders in order that the matter be given further consideration;

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT AND IT IS HEREBY RESOLVED that this House doth approve the principle of establishing the right of Canada to amend its Constitution without reference to the Parliament of the United Kingdom; AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT the draft of

an Act to be known as the Constitu tion of Canada Amendment Act set out in

Schedule "A" to this Resolution be referred to the Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders for consideration and that the said Committee be empowered to sit and hold public hearings on the said draft Act during the pre sent Session, and in recess, after prorogation, and to report to this House on its findings and recommendation at this session or at the next session of the Legislature; AND THAT the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the· Consolidated Fund, to the members of the said Committee, the amount of expenses incurred by the members in attending the sittings of the Committee, or expenses incurred by the members in the perform ances of duties ordered by the Committee, in recess, after prorogation, as are deemed neces sary by the Comptroller-General; Page 200 March 13th, 1963

AND THAT the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund, the expenses of counsel, secretaries, technical advisers, clerks, and stenographers, to aid and assist said Committees in its hearings during the session or after prorogation, during re cess as are deemed necessary by the Comptroller-General.

SCHEDULE A

An Act to provide for the amendment in Canada of the Constitution of Canada.

WHEREAS the Senate and House of Commons of Canada in Parliament assembled have submitted Addresses to Her Majesty praying that Her Majesty may graciously be pleased to cause a measure to be laid before the Parliament of the United Kingdom for the enactment of the provisions hereinafter set forth: Be it therefore enacted by the Queen's most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authodty of the same, as follows:

Part I Power to amend the Constitution of Canada 1. Subject to this Part, the Parliament of Canada, may make laws repealing, amending or re-enacting any provision of the Constitution of Canada. 2. No law made under the authority of this Part affecting any provision of this Act or

section 51A of the British North America Act, 1867, or affecting any provision of the Constitu tion of Canada relating to (

a) the powers of the legislature of a: province to make laws, (

b) the rights or privileges granted or secured by the Constitution of Canada to the legis lature or the government of a province, (

c) the assets or property of a province, (

d) the use of the English or French language, shall come into force unless it is concurred in by the legislatures of all the provinces. 3.

(1) No law made under the authority of this Part affecting any provision of the Consti tution of Canada that refers to one or more, but not all, of the provinces, shall come into force unless it is concurred in by the legislature of every province to which the provision refers.

(2) Section 2 of this Act does not extend to any provision of the Constitution of Canada referred to in subsection (1) of this section. 4.

(1) No law made under the authority of this Part affecting any provision of the Consti tution of Canada relating to education in any province other than Newfoundland shall come into force unless it is concurred in by the legislatures of all the provinces other than Newfoundland.

(2) No law made under the authority of this Part affecting any provision of the Consti tution of Canada relating to education in the province of Newfoundland shall come into force un less it is concurred in by the Legislature of the Province of Newfoundland.

(3) Sections 2 and 3 of this Act do not extend to any provision of the Constitution of Canada referred to in subsection (1) or (2) of this section. 5. No law made under the authority of this Part affecting any provision of the Constitution of Canada not coming within

section 2, 3 or 4 of this Act shall come into force unless it is concurred in by the legislatures of at least two-thirds of the provinces representing at least fifty per cent of the population of Canada according to the latest general census. 6. Nothing in this Part diminishes any power of the Parliament of Canada or of the legis-· lature of a province, existing immediately before this Act came into force, to make laws in re lation to any matter. 7.

No Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom passed after the coming 1nto force of this Act shall extend or be deemed to extend to Canada or to any province or-territory thereof. B. Without limiting the meaning of the expression "Constitution of Canada", in this Part that expression includes the following enactments and any order, rule or regulation thereun der, namely, (

a) the British North American Acts, 1867 to 1960; (

b) the Manitoba Act, 1870; March 13th, 1963 Page 201

(

c) the Parliament of Canada Act, 1875; (

d) The Canadian Speaker (Appointment of Deputy) Act, 1895; (

e) the Alberta Act; (

f) the Saskatchewan Act; (

g) the Statute of Westminster, 1931, in so far as it is part of the law of Canada; and (

h) this Act. PARTn British North America Act, 1867, amended 9. The British North America Act, 1867, is amended by renumberidng

section 94A thereof as 94B and by adding thereto, immediately after

section 94 thereof, the following head ing and section: Delegation of Legislative Authority "94A.

(1) Notwithetanding anything in this or in any other Act the Parliament of Canada may make laws in relation to any matters coming within the classes of subjects enumerated in heads (6), (10), (13) and (16) of

section 92 of this Act, but no statute enacted under the authority of this subsection shall have effect in any province unless the legislature of that province has con sented to the operation of such a statute in that province.

(2) The Parliament of Canada shall not have authority to enact a statute under subsection (1) of this

section unless ·(

a) prior to the enactment thereof the legislatures of at least four of the provinces have consented to the operation of such a statute as provided in that subsection, or (

b) it is declared by the Parliament of Canada that the enactment of the statute is of con cern to less than four of the provinces and the provinces so declared by the Parlia ment of Canada to be concerned have under the authority of their legislatures con sented to the enactment of such a statute.

(3) Notwithstanding anything in this or in any other Act the legislature of a province may make laws in the province in relation to any matter that is otherwise within the legislative jurisdiction of the Parliament of Canada.

(4) No statute enacted by a province under the authority of subsection (3) of this

section shall have effect unless (

a) prior to the enactment thereof the Parliament of Canada has consented to the enact ment of such a statute by the legislature of that province, and (

b) a similar statute has under the authority of subsection (3) of this

section been enacted by the legislatures of at least three other provinces.

(5) The Parliament of Canada or the legislature of a province may make laws for the imposition of punishment by fine, penalty or imprisonment for enforcing any law made by it under the authority of this section.

(6) A consent given under this

section may at any time be revoked, and (

a) if a consent given under subsection (1) or (2) of this

section is revoked, any law made by the Parliament of Canada to which such consent relates that is operative in the province in which the consent is revoked shall thereupon cease to have effect in that province, but the revocation of the consent does not affect the operation of that law in any other province, and (

b) if a consent given under subsection (4) of this

section is revoked, any law made by the legislature of a province to which the consent relates shall thereupon cease to have effect.

(7) The Parliament of Canada may repeal any law made by it under the authority of this section, in so far as it is part of the law of one or more provinces, but if any repeal under the authority of this subsection does not relate to all of the provinces in which that law is opera tive, the repeal does not affect the operation of that law in any province to which the repeal does not relate.

(8) The legislature of a province may repeal any law made by it under the authority of this section, but the repeal under the authority of this subsection of any law does not affect the operation in any other province of any law enacted by that province under the authority of this section." Page 2�� March 13th, 1963

PART m Citation and Commencement 10. This Act may be cited as the Constitution of Canada Amendment Act. 11. This Act shall come into force on the .•.• ••• •• ••. day of •• ••.•. •• •• ••• • , 1962. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews): There are two resolutions before us; they're vir tue of the •.• MR .

HUTTON: His honour, the administrator having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed resolutions recommends them to the House. MR . MARTIN: The two resolutions before us by virtue of the dissolution of the House on the 9th of November last, resolution "A which you will see in your Orders of the Day has to do with the revival of the Committee on the Livestock Marketing presented by the Minister of Agriculture; and the second resolution by the Attorney-General refers back to the Committee on regulations, the draft of

an Act to be known as the Constitution of Canada Amendment Act. Now they're very lengthy. Do you want them read entirely? I was wondering whether we couldn't come to the point of the resolves and the Minister of Agriculture take the -- save time. We're always ready to expedite matters here, Sir. MR. R. PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party)(Radisson): Mr. Chairman, there's just one point for the record of Hansard. I wonder if at least once for the purpose of the record of Hansard whether the full resolution as proposed should not be recorded and then subsequently refer to an abbreviated edition of it. MR .

CHAffiMAN: Yes, the Clerk points out we could have it recorded by making arrange ments with Hansard to have it placed there afterwards. MR . PAULLEY: That is satisfactory, Mr. Chairman, as far as I'm concerned; it would achieve the same thing. I do want it recorded in Hansard. MR. CHAffiMAN: Then we'd read the resolve. Resolved this resolution No. 1 - 1. .

That the Special Committee of the House appointed at the Third Session of the 26th Legislature, to study and enquire into all phases of the livestock marketing system in the Province of Manitoba, and reconstituted and reappointed at the Fourth and Fifth Sessions of the 26th Legislature, be now reappointed and reconstituted for the same purpose and with the same powers as set forth in the resolutions passed at the Third, Fourth and Fifth Sessions of the 26th Legislature, ap pointing and reappointing the said Committee. 2. That the said Special Committee shall con sist of the following persons, namely: Mr.

Shewman, Chairman, Messrs. Moeller, Schreyer, Shoemaker and Watt. And be it further resolved: That this Special Committee of the House shall have power to sit during the present Session, and in recess, after prorogation, and to report to the House on the matters referred to them at this Session or at the next Session of the Legislature.

And that the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund, to the members of the said Committee, the amount of expenses incurred by the members in at tending the sittings of the committee, or expenses incurred by the members in the performances of duties ordered by the committee, in recess, after prorogation, as are deemed necessary by the Comptroller-General.

And that the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund, the expenses of counsel, secretaries, technical advisers, accountants, clerks, stenographers, and investigators to aid and assist said committee in the enquiry, and to print the evidence, proceedings and documents received by the committee during the Session or after prorogation as are deemed necessary by the Comptroller-General. MR. HUTTON: Mr.

Chairman, there isn't really a great deal to be said about this, most of the members in the House are aware of the fact that this committee was set up as in dicated in this resolution and it held hearings over a quite a long period. Its hearings were wide in scope and the committee also in addition to carrying out these hearings had studies undertaken, some studies undertaken for them; they went outside of the province to investigate what was being done in other jurisdictions, and before their work could be correlated into a March 13th, 1963 Page 203

(Mr. Hutton, Cont'd.) •• •• report, it is a matter of history that the 2Sth Legislature was dissolved, and the committee in order to carry on its work and to bring it to a conclusion must be reconstituted and the provision is here being made to that end. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition)(Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, I'm rather surprised that the minister opened the statement by saying that there's not a great deal to be said. It seems to me that there should be a great deal said on this matter. The subject is no doubt extremely important.

The House il.greed to set up a committee to study it; but the pro gress of this committee is to say the very least, extremely disappointing. The resolution it self says that this was passed at the Third and the Fourth and the Fifth Sessions of the 26th Legislature. We appointed and reappointed this committee now three times, and so far nothing has been produced. Well, Mr.

Chairman, either the government doesn't consider this important or the committee simply has not been getting down to work; and the least we should have at this time, if we're being asked to reappoint a committee again for the fourth time, is a much more definite statement from the Minister, as to what has been accomplished to date. I suspect that this committee simply has not been getting down to work and I'm not prepared to vote in favour of reappointing it if it's not going to get down to work. I want to know what they've done; how much this has cost so far; how many meetings they've held; where and when.

I think this is the very minimum the Minister should give us in view of the extreme delay that we have had so far in this particular committee. MR. N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr. Chairman, in consideration of the fact that I have been honoured by being appointed to this committee, I expect that I will be supplied with a copy of all the minutes of all the meetings to date, if they have had any, and in fact a com plete file -- a copy of the file --so that I can bring myself up-to-date in this date and do justice to the committee. I hope that that will be forthcoming. MR . J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr.

Chairman, I notice that in the second resolved part or in the further resolved part that it leaves it open whether the committee is going to re port at this session or at the next session. Certainly I would like to receive or hear a progress report on this committee before this session prorogues. MR . PAULLEY: •.. before the Minister replies.

There is just one point that's come to .my observation in the resolution itself -- it may be that this has always been in these re solutions and has slipped my notice before, but I noticed in the very last resolve that the Pro vincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of Consolidated Fund the expenses of counsels, secretaries, etcetera, and to print the evidence, proceedings, etcetera as are deemed neces sary by the Comptroller-General. Now as I say Mr.

Chairman; this may have been in resolu tions of this nature before; it may have escaped my attention, but it appears to me that in the wording of the resolution the Comptroller-General will decide _.:.. it might be able to be inter preted this way that the Comptroller-General will decide as to what documents and printing of evidence, etcetera, will be forthcoming from the committee. I wonder if this matter may be clarified for my satisfaction, at least, before the resolution is adopted. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier and Provincial Treasurer)(Wolseley): Mr.

Chairman, I think this is a customary clause and it's merely to ensure that all the expenditures under this matter are brought to the notice of the Comptroller-General and are audited by him. The com mittee may still publish matters that he may not approve of but he can then issue a report say ing that he didn't approve of it and we know where we stand; but it is customary to have accounts of this nature referred to the Comptroller-General because that is a salutary control. MR. PAULLEY: I appreciate the fact of the necessity of the Comptroller-General looking over the expenses but it was just in my

interpretation of the wording of this last resolve that it may be implied that he would decide as to the evidence. MR . MARTIN: Resolution be .••....•. MR . HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, I would apologize to the House if the fact that I didn't enlarge on this question at this present time seems to have indicated to them that my depart ment and the government places no great importance upon this study. That iSn't the reason that I said very little on the subject. I am not quite as arrogant as some of the members in the House think I am. This is. a Committee of the House. It is their work..

The reason that the report has been delayed is because that Committee was dissolved when the last Legislature was dissolved, and it would have been most presumptuous if I had carried on the work of that Page 204 March 13th, 1963

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd) ••••• committee and taken it upon myself, or lf the government had taken it upon itself, to have brought all those studies and investigations and the findings of those papers together and had a report prepared for this Legislature. That would have been presumption. That would have been arrogance. This is the work of a committee of this House and it's only that we honored the work of that committee and honored the rights of the parties who are represented on that committee, that we are faced with this delay.

It was ori ginally hoped that we would have a report prepared for the consideration of the members at this session of the Legislature. I'm not going to say that there won't be. This is up to the committee to decide and the committee will have to make a decision as to whether a worth while report can be made to the House before it rises. I have some ideas of my own on the subject. I think that there has been a tremendous amount of work.

I think that the work of the committee has raised some questions that may require some further pursuit by technical people to come to a sound conclusion before they make any recommendations, or want to write any recommendations into this report. But this is the decision of the committee to make; it is not mine nor that of the government. I commend the committee for the work that they have done.

I commend the members who are now no longer in the House for the work that they did, and I would assure the new appointees to this committee that they will be given the advantage of all the studies and all the papers that were at the disposal of the former mem bers of this committee and we will look forward to their contribution in the latter stages of the committee's work. I recommend the work of. the committee to the House and I know that when their work is finally completed that it will have been worth waiting for. It is a very com plex matter that they have been looking into.

It may be that a little more time will be well spent in the consideration of this problem which they have set themselves to study. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the comments of the Minister and certainly insofar as any work of this committee, from the early part of November last, until now when the First Minister issued the writ of election I realize that the committee could not be working; but this House rose on the first of May last year and between the first of May and the early part of November there is a good deal of time.

Now I think that we should have a progress report from the Chairman of the committee. If the Minister has not got all the details then he should tell us exactly what the committee has been doing to date, how many hearings they have held, where they have held them, how frequently the committee has met and also how much money has been spent so far. I think that this is the least that the House must have at this time is a progress report. MR. MARTIN: Resolution ...••..• MR. HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that I don't think at this stage that there is a Chairman or there is a committee at all.

I think that the Chairman's report might well be given once the committee has been reconstituted and they have had an opportunity to meet. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, there was a report made to the last sitting of the Legislature last February. MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Chairman, there is a little lullaby song that goes this way, "that yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not here yet. If we have a little bit of today let's enjoy it. " Now there's a resolution before us. What's the use of digging up what happened yesterday, let's start from today. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, it's true that the committee as such is not constituted now but the gentleman who was the Chairman of this committee, and who, by the way, I think is the only individual on the committee that was on the original committee, is still here in the House and should be able to report to us at this time what the committee did accomplish dur ing the stage when he was the Chairman and when it was operating. And I think as well that the Minister should be able to tell us at this time what has been the cost of this investigation to date. Surely he has this. HON. S'l'ERLING R. LYON, Q.

C. (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Mr. Chairman, I don't want to interject myself into the debate except on what I believe would be a legitimate point of order, which I would ask the Honourable Leader of the Opposition to consider with me, and I'm searching here for the citation because I believe that unless the work of the committee was conducted with the public present there is authority in Beauchesne that reports or discus sions on the work of a committee of the House are really not tenable in the House until that March 13th, 1963 Page 205

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) .•••. committee reports back to the House. Now I have no firm knowledge myself, Mr. Chairman, as to whether or not the hearings of this committee or what portion of the hearings of this committee were in camera or without benefit of the public or press being present. I know the citation is here, I haven't been able to put my finger on it as yet, but I do raise that as one matter for consideration because I know that the rule of procedure does exist. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, last year we asked for a progress report and at that time the Chairman gave us a progress report "of sorts".

I say, of sorts. Now we're being asked to reconstitute the committee. It seems to me that the very least that the House should have is a progress report from the then Chairman to indicate how many meetings they've held, what progress they've made, when he expects that they could complete their work, or some idea, and how much money we have spent so far, because at this rate we can keep on going. This is the fourth time that this House is going to reappoint this committee. Now how long is it going to go on? MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr.

Chairman, ••••.••.•.•• •• to me, and I'm not so presumptuous as to think that I am an expert on the rules, but if it will help to stop this wrangling, it would seem a matter of common sense that we are not really in order to ask a former Chairman of the committee to give a report. He is not the Chairman at the present time. Therefore how can this Assembly dennnd that he give a report now. He can give a re- port once the committee is reconstituted and that can be tomorrow or any time henceforth. I MR. MARTIN: ..•..•••••••.

I think that there is no committee at the present time un- til this resolution is adopted and the man who was the Chairman is not the Chairman at the present time. MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman, I think the point is it's per fectly true there is no committee in existence at the present time, but you're asking us to re constitute a committee for the fourth time. All we are asking is, what has that committee ac complished in the "interval since it was first established? MR. ROBLIN: ••.•.••••. , Mr.

Chairman, that it's not really possible to ask for a report at this stage for the reasons that have been quite clearly set out. I think it's also a fact that if members will refer to Beauchesne they will see that it is not the custom for com mittees to report evidence until their enquiry has been received and you will find that on Page 249 of Beauchesne,

Section 3201, "It is the general custom not to report the evidence until the enquiry has been completed and the report is ready for presentation, but where an intermediate publication of an evidence or more than one report is thought desirable, the necessary power has been conferred upon the committee on its appointment or the House has granted leave sub sequent in the application of the Chairman for the committee to report its observations from time to time." That point, of course, has really not much bearing on the matter because we simply haven't a committee.

The committee has made interim reports in the past. Members of all parties have been represented on it and I think probably there is· a reasonable expectation that the House has some notion of the progress that this committee has been making and I think we're in a bit of a technical difficulty here in being unable to obtain a report from a committee that doesn't exist and from a Chairman who is no longer the Chairman of the committee.

Now the request for information is one which I personally would like to see supplied and I am sure that we can find ways and means of providing that information, either by Order for Return for past history or we can ask the Chairman of the committee, when he is appointed, to submit an early interim report to tell us what we want to know. I have no objection whatsoever tO anyone being curious about what the committee has been doing, but at this stage I think we are reduced to the alternative of either voting for or against the reappointment of the commit tee -- and I think that's what we should do.

If we think that it's wasting its time we can vote against it and if we don't we can vote for it; but I think that it would be fruitless to pursue this matter of trying to extract information from a committee that doesn't at the present time exist. I think that's what the Chairman has ruled, I think it's a sensible ruling. On the other hand, I think we should take note of the request for information and find an early and orderly way in which io supply that information, which I am sure can be done. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, continuing the citation that my honourable friend was quoting from Beauchesne, he quoted No. 1. Number 2 goes on to say, "When a committee have not completed their enquiries before the end of the Session they report the fact to the Page 206 March 13th, 1963

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) .. .•. House, together with any evidence which they may have taken." Now this is really all that I'm asking for is what's happened since this committee has been working for two years. Does it deserve to be reappointed, or does it not deserve to b�? It's as simple as that, and if the Minister -- if he claims that the Chairman can't do it, although the Chairman is here, and was the Chairman for some two years, if he can't do it well then the Minister can tell us. How many meetings have they held? Where? When? What's been the cost of the committee to date? MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman ••••••• .••• MR . ROBLIN: Could I just pursue this point of order ; ..•.•• MR . PAULLEY: I just want to make a comment .•...... I think. I haven't Beauchesne before me but I have a resolution before me that is before this committee and the reason for that resolution being before the committee at this time, as I understand rules of procedure, is because of the fact that it involves an expenditure of money and as such must be before this committee. Now, it is a fact, Mr.

Chairman, that we haven't got a committee, so to ask for a report of a committee that has been dissolved at this stage of the game I don't think is quite proper.

May I suggest this as the proper procedure --again without the benefit of Beauchesne right at hand -- would be for this committee to adopt this resolution in order that it goes on the order paper for debate in its proper manner and then if at that time an amendment is pro posed to the resolution before us asking for a report of previous committees or a synopsis of a report of previous committees and an amendment is adopted, then the Chairman who is selected of the committee would be under an obligation then if at all possible, either from his personal knowledge or from ascertaining from past records as to what the committee did, how long it met, and the likes of that.

I think that's logical, if not according to Beauchesne. MR . MARTIN: Resolution be adopted. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister tell us at least at this stage how much money has been spent so. far in this committee? MR. HUTTON: I can't off the top of my head, but I can determine that fact and report to the Assembly tomorrow if you like. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, I have a different point to bring up and I bring it up in all sincerity. It does not deal with procedure, but it does deal with some thing I think would be very helpful to the work of this committee.

This is an important subject we're discussing and I think that it has already been shown by the Speech from the Throne it self that the government is concerned about doing everything possible for the beef cattle indus try in the next short time. My suggestion is that we have in the House, are fortunate to have in the House, a man whom I believe is better acquainted with the beef industry and the raising of cattle in the Province of Manitoba, than any other individual member.

I was wondering if we couldn't hold this resolution in committee until the government tries to pursuade the Honour able Member for Rupertsland to become a member of the committee. It seems to me, looking at this, the names of the members of committee, while I have the most hearty respect for everyone who is on the committee, it seems to me that no one of them has the experience and the background to make a contribution in this important investigation that the Honourable Mem ber for Rupertsland has.

I have had the pleasure and the profit of discussing the beef cattle industry with the honourable member on more than one occasion and I think that his practical knowledge from the point of view of raising cattle and marketing them is something that should not be lost sight of. I wish that we had on our group someone that had the experience that the honourable gentleman has. I wish there were more in the House as a whole.

It seems to me there are very few of us, very few now that are actual beef producers under range conditions, and I think range conditions and the feeder type of operation are two things that have to be very carefully considered by this committee. So, my suggestion is that we let it stand for the time being and ask the government and the Chairman of the committee to try and pursuade the Honourable Member for Rupertsland to become a member of it as well. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I'm very interested in the comments made by my col league from Lakeside, and this seems to me to be a very sensible suggestion.

I know, not only the Member from Rupertsland personally, but I know his ranch as well, and I know the experience he has in this field. I think he would make a very useful contribution to the com mittee. I appreciate that if he were simply to be added to the committee this would throw off March 13th, 1963 Page 207

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) •• ••• the normal balance that we have on the committee, but speaking for our group we would have no objection whatsoever to having that balance changed in order to have this gentleman on the committee. MR. CHAmMAN: Resolution be adopted? Carried. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, is the government not going to consider the suggestion made by the Member for Lakeside? MR. ROBLIN: • • • • • • • • motion has been carried that ends the matter, but I can tell my honourable friend that the suggestion will be considered. MR. CHAmMAN: Resolution number 2. The Attorney-General.

Now therefore be it and it is hereby resolved that this House do approve the principle of establishing the right of Canada to amend the Constitution without reference to the Parliament of the United Kingdom; and be it further resolved that a draft of

an Act to be known as The Constitution of Canada Amendment Act set out in

Schedule "A" of this resolution be referred to the Standing Commit tee on Statutory Regulations and Orders for Consideration, and that the s·aid committee be em powered to sit and hold public hearings on the said draft Act during the present session and in recess, after prorogation, and to report to this House on its findings and recommendations at this Session or at the next Session of the Legislature; And that the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund to the members of the said Committee the amount of expenses incurred by the members attending the sittings of the Committee, or ex penses incurred by the members in the performance of duties ordered by the Committee, in recess, after prorogation, as are deemed necessary by the Comptroller-General; And that the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Consolidated Fund the expenses of counsel, secretaries, technical advisors, clerks and stenographers, to aid and assist said Committee in its hearings during the Session or after prorogation during recess as are deemed necessary by the Comptroller-General.

MR. PAULLEY: To start the discussion on this resolution, may I have the same assur ance that I had in the previous resolution that the full context including the

Schedule are printed in the record of Hansard as of this date in order that it's . • • . • . . • • • . • . . Thank you. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, as honourable members who were in the last House will see this is the sam e resolution as was passed by the House at the last Session of the last Legislature, to be exact in April of 1962, with the exception of the two final paragraphs of the

preamble which note the fact that the work of the committee with respect to the British North America Amendment Act was not completed by reason of the dissolution of the last Legislature. I can report to. the committee, Mr. Chairman, that this matter was referred to the Standing Committee on Statutory Orders and Regulations in order that in the course of their regular work reviewing the regulations they might also take under advisement the draft

Schedule "A: which is appended as a

schedule to the resolution. One meeting of that committee was held-- the exact date escapes me, it was in the spring or summer of 1962. A second meeting at which we hoped to include the work of the committee was slated for the 29th of November but, of course, because of the dissolution notices were sent to all members advis ing them that the committee no longer existed.

I believe there is perhaps one further group who wish to make representations to the committe e as indicated by notice given to us at the committee meeting last summer, and subsequently the committe e will then want to consider in detail the draft Amendment Act in toto in the light of the representations that have been made.

For the benefit of honourable members who were not in the House and who might wish to refer to the previous debate on this matter -- because I do not intend at this time to rehash the whole argument and the whole history leading up to the devising of this draft amendment -- I would refer them to the journals of the last Legislature wherein they will see the diff erent days on which the debate was held and from those dates they can refer back to Hansard. I know that the opening remarks with respect to this resolution as it appeared at the last Session were made by myself on the 28th of March, 1962.

The debate was then adjourned by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, and his subsequent remarks and those of others who parti- · cipated in the debate, I \vould commend to honourable members who may wish to follow through to see what the history, the background and the opinions of the House were at that time; and I would hope that this resolution would receive the support of the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted? Page 208 March 13th, 1963

MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I just want to check once again on the procedure. I well recall the discussion that took place last year where the Honourable the Attorney-General led off as he has suggested and I followed with a few remarks -- I would be inclined to say that it was a debate on a very high order and it undoubtedly added a great deal to the information of the House in general. But the procedure as I understand it now is that the committee will re sume it's work; there is still one delegation at least to be heard.

If that can be completed it will be back here this year, -at this Session or, if not, at the next Session, and at that time the - House is going to give consideration to the suggestions that that committee makes. Is that correct? MR. LYON: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to raise in connection with representa tions -- unless the committee is comprised of the same personnel of the former committee, any new member going onto the committee would be somewhat at a disadvantage in respect of representations unless the representations that were made before the last committee were re corded in order that any new member of the committee may have a chance of perusing what was said during any representation.

New members might be in a disadvantageous position as the result of that, and it may be necessary instead of just hearing one delegation that was not heard or indicated their desire to appear before the committee, it might be necessary because, technically at least, for the new committee to hear evidence placed before this House, that the point raised by the Honourable the Attorney-General may have to be reconsidered in the light of the change of personnel on the committee. One other question I would like to direct to the Honourable Minister. Is

Schedule "A" exactly the same as the

Schedule "A" of the resolution that was before us last year without any change whatsoever? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman,

Schedule "A", although I haven't checked it word for word, should be the same except for any printers' errors that may have crept into it. It's the copy merely of the resolution that appeared last Session with the Schedule. As to his first point, the one submission that was made to the previous committee, I believe there was one copy, al though I couldn't be certain on this point. I believe there was one written copy of it handed to us, in which case duplicate copies can quite easily be made and circulated to any members who may be appointed to this new committee. MR . CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, I suppose it will be the intention of the committee to advertise its sittings onoe again so that if some other persons or groups should wish to make representations they could do so. MR. LYON: That would be up to the committee, of course, Mr. Chairman, but that was the practice followed before. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, this is, in my opinion, the most important resolution siroe Manitoba has been incorporated and created. I would like to find out what would be the mechan ics in procedure.

I am sure to pass this resolution effectively will take more than one session -- at least that's my guess -- it's extremely important and before we decide on anything I think we have to educate the public and explain to them what it actually means. I'm not going to dis cuss it now and express my opinion, but I would like to know, what would be the mechanics or the machinery set to discuss it fully and to enlighten the public fully. MR. LYON: Of course, Mr.

Chairman, the purpose of the committee -- the purpose of the government in recommending this resolution to the House, both in 1962 and today is in or der to provide the public access to the committee where they may express their views with respect to this important subject. I think my honourable friend and I are as one with respect to that desirable ideal.

There's no particular mechanical means through which this is done, except for those who are interested to present themselves when the committee is meeting and to participate in the discussions which are called for from the public and let us know what their views are. Any other members of the public who wish to sit and listen to the delibera tions of the committee are, of course, entitled to do so; and beyond that I'm afraid that there's very little else that can be done. MR . GRAY: Mr. Chairman, there's no intention on the government to rush into it. MR . LYON: It's up to the Committee. MR .

CHAmMAN: Resolution be adopted. Agreed. Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Madam Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has adopted certain resolutions March 13th, 1963 Page 209

(Mr. Chairman, cont'd) •••.• and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. MR . MARTlN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Springfield, that the report of the committee be received. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. HON. G.

EVANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce and Provincial Secretary) (F ort Rouge): Madam Speaker, before you call the Orders of the Day, I desire to lay on the table of the House the 45th Annual Report of the Manitoba Civil Service Commission, with the usual number of copies suffic ient for the party rooms, etcetera. At the same time, Madam Chairman, I would like to lay on the table a Return to an Order of the House No. 1 of this Session.

At the same time I would like to answer the question asked by my honourable fr iend from Portage la Prairie yesterday, in which he enquired: "Is it true that the Minister's department filled the position of Civil Defenc e Co-ordinator Area 2 with headquarters at Portage la Prairie without first applying for applicants for the position?" The answer is "No"; but in explanation, the position was filled by transfe rring a civil defen ce offic er from the western zone , as it's called, to the eastern zone, as it is called in Portage la Prairie.

He asked a question to indicate that it was not the desire of that person to be moved. There is no indication that it was not his desire; he was offered the position; he accepted it willingly; thus the vacancy was created in the northern zone or at Dauphin, which position has not yet been filled. The position was ad vertised and bulletined in the usual way, but the appointment has not been made. MADAM SPEAKER: Will the House go back to the two resolutions that were considered in the Comm ittee of the Whole? The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR .

HUTTON: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney General, that "Whereas a special committee of the House was appointed at the (See Resolution, Page 199 of Hansard). Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Welf are, "Whereas all self-governing members of the British Commonwealth of Nations-- (See Resolution, Page 200 of Hansard. ) Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Orders for the Day. MR .

ROBLlN: Madam Speaker, I wonder if I could now reply to the question asked me by the Honourable Member for Lakeside the other day about a story that appeared in the Winni peg Tribune a few days ago. He first asked me if I had seen the story; I am now in a position to say that I have. He then asks me if it is accurate . Generally speaking, it is accurate, though there are some minor omissions, particularly in a failure to emphasize that the fi gures are for gross debt and did not take into account sinking funds and other of f-setting debt require ments.

I might say that the inf ormation concerned was given to the newspaper in question upon request by the Treasury Department -- and naturally for that I take responsibility. It is not classified inf ormation; it is the kind of info rmation that is given out every time, for example we make a bond issue. We have never made a bond issue in our history that I am aware of, and I have searched this with the department, where this kind.of info rmation has not been given out to those who sought it, and is generally available upon request.

As a matter of fa ct I can say that last year on the 15th day of February a very similar story was written by the same man in the same paper from inf ormation that was obtained in the same way. The honourable mem ber asks me about the size of the debt.

I can tell him that the gross direct and guaranteed debt outstanding as of December 31st, 1962 is $632 million, made up of $366 million of direct debt and $266 million of guaranteed debt, which is a contingent liability, but the pertinent figu re, of course, is the net debt of the province, which after deducting self sustaining debt and sinking funds is $169 million. MR . CAMPBELL: Madam Speaker, may I ask the Honourable the First Minister if this story was given out in connection with a bond issue? MR .

ROBLIN: This particular story was not, Madam Speaker, it was given out on re quest for inform ation by the party concerned, and as I said it has been our practice to give this inf ormation to those who ask for it. MR . BAIZ LEY: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to answer Page 210 March 13th, 1963

(Mr. Baizley, cont'd) ••.•. the ques tions asked of me by the Honourable Member from La Verendrye on Monday. The first cheques are available to the resi dents today and will cover that work period ending February 28th, 1963 . MR . BUTTON: Before the Orders of the Day, I would like to lay on the table of the House a nil report of the Water Rights Act Annual Report for the year ended 31st, 1962, and the Annual Report of the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation for the year ended March, 1962.

I mi ght say that there will be a copy of the Annual Report of the Crop Insurance Corporation made available to all the mem bers in the Assembl y. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, further to the reply given by the Minis ter of Municipal Affairs -- could he indicate the reasons why there was such a delay in the issue of these cheques -- or the Minister of Labour, pardon me -- the delay in the issue of these cheques? ·M R. BAIZ LEY: I cannot. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Minis ter of Mines and Natural Resources.

Have the government increased the fees or charges for hay permits, grazing leases and any other types of hay and pasture leases that they have? HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (FUn Flon) (Minis ter of Mines and Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the answer is no. MR . MOLGAT: .•..••• .••.• planning an increase in these, Madam Speaker? MADAM SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the At torney-General. Yesterday he indicated to the House, prior to the Orders of the Day, that there would be a reduction in beer prices from the Brewers to the Liquor Commissi on.

He didn't indicate then whether there would be a reduction in the price to the consumer. There appears to have been a report last night that this was not the case. I would like the confirma tion of the Minister as to whether the consumers would be getting a reduction or not. MR. LYON: Madam Speaker, I didn't indicate to the House yesterday that there would be a reduction in the price -- of the wholesale price of beer; I merely indicated that this mat ter would be considered by the Public Utility Board; so of course I couldn't go on and be hypo thetical with respect to the other matter. MR.

MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, if I read the honourable gentleman correctly he .said that the prices had been subm itted indicating reductions of two and one-quarter cents per dozen on bottles and 18 cents per half keg paid to the Brewers ; this would reduce the cost to the Com miss ion and that the Brewers had accepted this . This was his statement. Now this seems to be a fact. My question is: is he passi ng this on to the consumers ? MR.

LYON: What I said, Madam Speaker, was that I would like to advise the members of the House that the Public Utilitie s Board will be giving notice that a public hearing will be held concerning prices to be paid for beer. Pursuant to the Act the commi ssion recently sub mit ted for the Board's approval prices that would achieve reduction and so on, if approved by the Public Utilities Board. The machinery, as my honourable friend may or may not be aware, is contained in

Section 18 of The Liquor Control Act; all of this must be approved by the Public Utili ty Board. In the ordinary course of events though to satisfy his curiousity it is not cus tomary for these to be passed on to the public. MR . MOLGA T: Is the government considering passing on some of the reduction to the handlers, such as vendors and hotel operators ? A subsequent ques tion on the same subject, Madam Speaker, is the Attorney-General considering reduction of prices in the isolated areas of northern Manitoba which are now on a higher price schedule? MR .

ROBLIN: On a point of order, Madam Chairman, my honourable friend knows that he's not entitled to ask questions about what the government is going to do. When the informa tion is available or decisi ons made, he is then entitled to ask the questions, but not at this stage. MR. MOLGAT: On the point of order, Madam Speaker, the Honourable the Attorney General was the one who brought this subject up and I am merely pursuing the questions that flow logically from his statem ents of yesterday. MR . GRAY: Madam Speaker, may I direct a ques tion to the Leader of the Opposition?

Is this the most important problem we have before us today? MR. MOLGAT: Would the honourable gentleman like an answer to that, Madam Speaker? I'd be very happY to give him one. It seems to me, Madam Speaker, that these questions before March 13th, 1963 Page 211

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) •.. •. the Orders of the Day pertain very much to the business of Manitoba. The Attorney-General yesterday made a speech on the subject before the Orders of the Day and I think it's perfectly proper to have questions to the honourable gentleman today. If my honour able friend doesn't think so that's his privilege. MADAM SPEAKER: Address for Papers. The Honourable Member for St. George. - (Interjection) -- Agreed. The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Mem ber for Brokenhead. MR.

ROBUN: .• ••••••• who is the one that suggested yesterday, Madam Speaker, that this should be •.•••..•. looked into with respect to the legal point that was raised. That has had some examination and I'm of the opinion that the order should not be declined on the grounds that it is before the courts because it is a request for information rather than a debate that might take place in the House. Therefore, as far as the government is concerned, we do not oppose the order and will be glad to accept it. MR . SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the government for acceptance of the order.

I was going to inform the Minister of Agriculture and the Premier -- I suppose it's not necessary now -- that it is not subjudicate, not before the courts; and also if they insist I can produce signed affidavits from the person in question and from his solicitor, that the transcript is in existence. All this is unnecessary since it's being accepted. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. I MR . ROBLIN: The next motion is mine, Madam Chairman. It's the motion that we go into Committee of Supply.

I move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-General that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into com mittee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR .

ROBUN: lt is not our custom here to have a lengthy statement from the Treasury bench with respect to this matter of Committee of Supply because we soon get plenty of oppor tunity to examine all the details with respect to it, so I will not make any lengthy statement at this time but I will just make a couple of very obvious observations that will immediately occur to anyone who looks at the Estimates themselves.

The first and most important fact, of course, is that there is an increase recommended to the Chamber in the cost of running the Province of Manitoba, of something less than $15 million, between $14 million and $15 million for the current year.

I am sure that one item that is going to attract a great deal of attention, inside the House and out of it, will be the question of salareies for members, because it will only require a little bit of arithmetic to convince those who read these Estimates that a larger sum has been provided for the indemni ties and expenses of members of the House; and I may say I think without breach of propriety that there will be a bill introduced on this subject.

The question of indemnities is a matter of statute and a Bill will be introduced to increase the total eXPense and indemnity allowance for members from $4, 000 to $4, BOO, and I suppose that I ought to say nothing more about it at this time but reserve any eXPlanations I have for this proposal for the time when the bill comes in. I think probably it would be better, if there's agreement, that we should save our debate, if there is one -- I expect there will be -- on this question of indemnities, until such time as the bill itself is introduced.

There is another matter of payment that I suppose I ought also to refer to, although I'm sure we will have plenty of opportunity to get into the details of this when we get into Com mittee of Supply, namely the fact that there is an increase in the salaries of Cabinet Ministers and of the Leader of the Opposition, of some $2, 500.00.

I will be glad to give members a com parison of salaries paid in various parts of the country and salaries paid for other reasonably important public posts so that we may have a chance to determine whether this increase is jus tified under the circumstances or not; but I don't suppose that members would wish me to get into that detail at this stage when it can be done more conveniently when we can have a fuller discussion in the Committee itself.

Now the other points which will certainly be brought to the attention of members will be the fact that of the something less than $15 million increase, $7 million is for the provincial share in the construction of the Greater Winnipeg Floodway, the Red River Floodway, and members will see that that represents an increase in the budget of the Department of Page 212 March 13th, 1963

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd) .•••• Agriculture and Conservation and is the one single big item of in crease in the Estimates that takes up practically half of the increased expenditures proposed. The rema ining expenditures are mostly to reflect increases in education grants and in the wel fare department and in health services and other services to persons of that character; very considerable increases in various ite ms of maintenance for those who are physically handi capped and indeed for those who are in remand homes and places of that sort, which no doubt will be looked at in detail when they come.

But the big increases are in the three departments which I have mentioned. Members will also see a considerable increase in the Department· of Mines and Resources and also a subs tantial expenditure to be recommended for ARDA. This is scattered through the Est imates in several departments . Mines, Agriculture, Industry and Commerce oddly enough are all in it, and there is a substa ntial expenditure recomme nded for ARDA . A general increase in civil service pay is to be recommended. That is shown on the Est ima te Sheet as $750, 000. 00.

To this must be added about half a million dollars, roughly speaking, which is the normal increments given out each year to the civil servants. This $750, 000 represents a general raising of the whole pay schedule, so there is an amount in these Est imates of about a million and a quarter in respect of salary account for the govern mental servants of this province. The Public Debt Account is not voted on as such in the Estima tes, but it's always shown here, and mem bers can see that the cost of interest in carrying the Public Debt is rising from $3. 6 mi\lion to a little over $5 million.

The other details are all there for examination, and I am sure we'll have an interesting renewal of our annual encounter on the subject of money management and the invest ment of capital funds of this nature in the long-term debt. I will not anticipate those interesting debates because I am sure that they will all come up in their place. Perhaps this would be a convenient time for me to make a statement, however, on the Manitoba Savings Bonds, because mem bers probably anticipate that we will be making some arrangements for another issue of bonds in the near future and I think that assum ption is cor rect.

No final decisi on has been made but the tentative arrangement is that there will be another issue of Manitoba Savings Bonds this year. I do not expect they will be made at the same time as they were last year because there are certain tendencies today in the money mar ket which we feel might make in inappropriate to issue the Savings Bonds at the same time as we did last year and, being in no particular press for money, it is quite convenient for us to select the time that we think is most suitable under the circums tances.

So by way of informa tion, I say to members of the House that there will probably be an issue of bonds , but it will be a few weeks, I should think, later than issued last year. Now those are very general comments , Madam Speaker, and I hope they will be an ade quate introduction to permi t us to get into detailed considerations of the items that are included in these Estimates. MR. GRAY: Madam Speaker -- Oh, I'm sorry. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I was rising to ask a question as a matter of fact of the .••.• MR. ROBLIN: Excuse me, I meant to say in my remarks, and I apologize for having overlooked it.

My honourable friend asked me last night in what order we would pursue these Estim ates and I want to tell him , as I promised I would, that we expect to proceed with them as they appear in the Es timate book. If there is any variation on that I shall give the House and the Commi ttee as much advance notice as possible. I do not anticipate any at the present time. MR . GRAY: Madam Speaker, in connection with the proposed provincial bond issue, as this one that's sold, and the idea is that it should be sold only to the people of this province, what has this to do with the world markets ?

If there is a man in the province who believes that the province's security is good; that the security of the province is the 800, 000 people living in the province; all the agricultural land, all the mines, all the natural resources ; I cannot see for the life of me why wait on world markets. It could wait if it's not convenient. It doesn't make any difference to me. I'm not here ready to hand you over the money, but the general principle of waiting for the world market, the world's condition for exchange and what have you, to sell bonds to your own people on the people's security, my head does not digest it.

Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. March 13th, 1963 Page 213

MADAM SPEAKER: Will the Honourable Member for St. Matthews please take the Chair . MR . CHAIRMAN: Department I, legislation, Item 2 (

a) pass ed ; (

b) passed; (

c) passed. MR . CAMPBE LL: Madam Chairman -- I'm sorry -- Mr. Chairman, even though the statutory indemnities do not require to be voted, they appear on the Estimates and they enter into the total am ount of money that has to be provided and,even though I recognize that a bill is to be brought in in this connection and perhaps with some of the others that are mentioned for increases, I would like at this time simply to express my opposition to the increases that are suggested for the members• indemnities..

I hold to the view that I have expressed on other occ asions , that the members of this Chamber, private members, are adequately paid at present and I think that it is setting a wrong example to other public bodies and to the pub lic at large for us to be increasing our own salaries. I do not intend to debate the ma tter at length now because there will be an opportunity later on to do so, but inasmuch as it has been mentioned by the First Minister, I think that I should place my position on record.

This increase, if provided, will constitute a 60 percent rise in the sa laries of private members of this House from when this government took over. I think that for the time that we spend here that this is more than adequate. I am not at the moment going to deal with the Ministers ' salaries or the other increases that are mentioned here, Mr . Chairman, including your own and my leader. I know that the one of Madam Speaker is statutory. So far as the private members are concerned, I think that this is a mistake.

I have to report I suppose, in fairness, that if it is granted I shall ac cept my portion, holding the view as I do that I am worth the am ount as well as some of the other members of the legislat ure . I think there 1s some here who are worth a good bit more and I think there •s some here though that are not worth any more, so if it is going to be general, I'll take mine and not make any promises about giving it away to some charity or other worthy cause, so I1m not trying to disguise the fact that if this goes through that I will be acc epting the increase.

I'm not trying to pretend on this occa sion that I'll give it away. I did that with regard to the increase in salary of the leader of the Opposition for the short two years that I occupied that post, because I felt that, coming as it did hnm ediately after an election, I was not working too hard at the job; that it was not re quired; and I tried to get the House to not ma ke that donation. However, this is a little different, but I can •t help but recall to the minds of the honour able members that if this increase is granted and if the

schedule that I have seen in this mor ning 's Free Press is correct, that we, the members of this House, would be receiving a higher indemnity than either British Columbia or Al berta; not as high by quite a bit as Saskat chewan; certainly considerably less than Ontario; still greater difference with the Province of Quebec. We have no control over what the other legislatures do and I don't suggest that we should, but I think that we should look very carefully as to what example we set here in the Province of Manitoba, so I simply repeat the position that I have taken on former occasio ns.

I think this increase is too fast and too far . A 60 percent increase in less than five years is, to my way of thinking, extravagant. I think it sets a bad precedent for other public bodies. Now I shall defer any further remarks I have until the bill comes forward, but, in the meantime, I simply can •t help but give notice of the position that I intend to take in this regard. MR. ROBLIN : I should not let the honourable gentleman's comments go unremarked be cause I think that, in this matter at least, we can certainly say that he is perfectly consistent.

He has always opposed increases in indemnities in the House and I, for one, respect his reas ons . If I thought for a mom ent that the change�> that were being ma de or that have been made in the indemnities in the House were extravagant or unwarra nted or out of line with what we may find in the country around us , and after all we must pay some attention to that factor, then I want to assure him that we would not ma ke the suggestion.

It is a mo s·t invidious situ ation in which we are placed, in having to decide on our own indemnities and expense acc ounts and it is one which makes one hesitate a long time before one recommends it, because we are obvious targets for criticism from all sides for obvious reasons and, therefore, nobody likes to take the responsibility of ma king proposals of this sort lightly and I want to say that that is the case here. I don •t really believe that this $800. 00 increase is an extravagant or an un justified thing by way of sal aries.

I don't want to get into a general debate because we are having a Bill and it is pointless to debate the matter twice. At that general debate we will naturally have a vote and members Page 21 4 March 13th , 1963

(Mr. Roblin cont•d) .....•. will be able to record their views on this in any manner they wish, but I feel that, in view of the fact that the honourable member made some reference to what is paid in other Assembl ies, that I should place on the record now and it can be discussed when we have the Bill before us what the differences are, according to my information. In the Province of Alberta, for a number of years they were paying $4500. 00. We have paid $4000. 00. We now propose to go to $4800, which will put us $300 over them. In the Province of British Columbia, · for a number of years they have paid $4400. 00.

We have paid $4000. 00. We are going to $4800, if the order passes, which means we will be paying $400 more than they do. I am given to understand they are increasing their indemnities in the near �ture, though I have no positive information to give the House. In New Brunswick, for a number of years they have paid $5000. 00. We have paid $4000 and we are going to $4800. 00. In New foundland, which is not a rich province, they have been paying $50011 to their members for a number of years and, as I say, we have paid $4000 and are going to $4800. 90.

In Nova Scotia, for a number of years they have paid $4800 and that is what we propose. In Ontario, for a number of years it has been $7000. 00. We have been paying $4000. 00. We now propose to go to $4800.00. In Quebec, it has been $9700 and I think that's the peak for this kind of thing, and they have paid that for a number of years . In Saskatchewan, it is $6000 so I think that the members of the committee might like to have those facts before them so that the.y can -- should have that information at hand when the time comes for the bill to be introduced into the House.

I respect my honourable friend •s judgment in this matter. I just don •t think he •s right and I hope -- I hope -- it may be a vain hope, but I hope that the public will not think that we have been rapacious or greedy in making a change of this sort. I myself think it can be justified on an equitable basis and trust that it will be thought so generally. MR; FROESE: I just want to place on record that I have some reservations on this matter of the increase in indemnities, however, I will wait until the Bill is before the House to debate the motion. MR , CHAIRMAN: 2 (

a) passed; (

b) passed. MR . MOLGAT: On 2(a), there's an increase indicated here . Cafi:. the Minister indicate, or did he ? I unfortunately had to go out for the very opening. MR . ROBLIN: I didn't mention this . It will also be in the Bill. As members know, there is a special allowance made to the members for the two northern constituencies of $900 for travelling expenses, and it has been thought desir able to raise that to $1500. 00. That will also be -- those are the two points, incidentally, whi ch will be in this Bill on indemnities .

We tried this out a few years ago and we found out that members coming down here for Indian and Metis conferences and all those many things that they are expected to turn up in Winnipeg for, as well as the size of their constituencies, makes it , I think, in the public interest that they should have 'this extra travelling allowance in the case of those two northern seats.

After all, one must remember that in those seats in particular , there is practically no municipal govern ment and the member J:ias to carry out the duties, not only of a member of the Legislature, important as they are, but in many respects he has to take the place of Father Confessor of a sca ttered variety of people who do not have organized government of their own. Consequently, he gets many calls upon his time and attention, which others of us in different circumstances do not receive. So with those things in mind, it is proposed to recommend that increase. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I certainly appreciate fully the difficulties of the north ern members. What is the situation insofar as government transportation in those areas - like the government air services do travel in those areas, and I realize no scheduled intervals but at various intervals. Can these members make use of this service ? Can other members of the House make use? MR. ROB!lN: That is a matter that we have considered from time to time .

In the past we have not been very favourably inclined towards this, but I think that, on reflection, common sense indicates that the member in that constituency should be allowed to travel ori that plane if it happens to be going from one point to another and he has business to do in that area, so I propose to request the Department of Mines and Resources to make sure that that facility is. open.

It raises the point as to who should be able to use this transportation, apart from Min isters of the Crown, and it is my present opinion that it ought to be restricted to the actual members of the two constituencies in question. March 13th, 1963 Page 215

MR. CHAIRMAN: (

c) passed; (

d) passed. MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr. Chairman, I assume that this item is not statutory and has to be voted every year -- opposition leader. MR. ROBLIN: The opposition leader is statutory. You will notice that we are asking the House to approve the same increase in salary there as we are suggesting for Cabinet Ministers . It's not statutory. MR . HILLHOUSE: The point that I wish to make, Mr. Chairman, will be brief.

It amaz es me to find that in appointing this special com mittee of the House to deal with a livestock matter, we have a paragraph to the effect that the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of the Cons olidated Fund the expenses of counsel, secretaries, technical advisors, acc ountants, clerks, stenographers and investigators to aid and assist that commi ttee in the enquiry. Now I1 m not suggesting for one moment that the work of that commis sion is not im portant. It is important ; it is very ess ential; but I submit by the same token, Mr.

Chairman, that the work of the Leader of the Opposition in this House is equally important. Our demo cratic system depends on a strong government and a strong opposition, and I suggest to the members of this com mittee that in the complex form which our government takes today that it is absolutely impossible for one individual occupying a position as Leader of the Opposition to carry out his duties, to make the investigations , and to make the research which is necessa ry to properly carry out the duties, without certain permanent help. I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that we take a look at what some of the other provinces are doing for the Leaders of their' Opposition. The -- I beg your pardon -- In the Province of British Columbia, the Leader of the Opposition there receives $8000 a year for his assistants. In the Province of Quebec, the Leader of the Opposition receives an allowance of $8,0 00. 00.

He receives an expense allowance for official entertainment of $2, 000; he receives a living allowance, which is not taxable, of $2, 000 ; then in addition to that he has his salary as a mem ber of the Legislative Assem bly which is $6700; then in further addition to that he has travel ling expenses. He has a general secretary and there is an allowance of $9000 ma de for that item . He has a private secretary and there is an allowance of ·$5500 ma de to that item . - (Interjection) -- Quebec . Now these figures are as of July, 1961.

He also has a stenographer, an ante:-room clerk and, during the sessi on, there are additional stenographic help supplied to the members. Now in the Province of Ontario, the indemnity paid to the Leader of the Opposition there is $5000 which is taxable. He has a $2000 allowance per annum for expenses which is not tax able. He has a representation allowance of $2000 per annum which is paid in addition as an allowance against expenses. In further addition to that he is paid the same amount of indemnity or the same amount of allowance as a Cabinet Minister, which was $12, 000 in 196 1.

Now he also has executive ass istants and additional help, and when I was in Toronto last summer I was in the office of the Leader of the Opposition, and at that time the House was not in session. At that time he had a full-time research ass istant; he had two secretaries; he had a clerk; and he was equipped with all the staff that was necessa ry both for doing the clerical work in his office and for doing the research work; which is so necessa ry and ess ential in a modern Par liament for a Leader of the Opposition to have . I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that in Manitoba the Leader of the Opposition should be fur nished (

a) with a full-time se cretary; and (

b) with a full-time research as sistant. I think that is the only method by which we can be assured that the Leader of the Opposition, regardless of who he may be, may have the staff necessa ry to do the research work which is so es sential in the proper carrying out of the duties of his office; and I .would strongly urge, Mr. Chairman, that additional funds be made available to the Leader of the Opposition for a research assis tant and a full-time secretary. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, this is a familiar discussion because it has taken place on this item for a number of occ asions now.

In fact, I remember so well making som ething of the argument, although I never think I went as far as my honourable friend has gone today, by making som ething of this argument when I sat in the seat of the Leader of the Opposition. At that time the indemnity of that post was $250 0. 00. It is now proposed to make it $6000 and, as the former Leader of the. Opposition would be quick to point out, this represents an increase of about 150 percent in the last few years, so that the em oluments of this post seem to be Page 216 March 13th , 1963

(Mr . Roblin cont 'd) , .•.•.•. increasing at a faster rate than any other in the gift of this Legis lature, and personally I find nothing wrong with that. I think the recomm endation of $6000 is justified under the circumstances.

I got $2500, and I remember so well that when the suggestion was made that I could do with a little more help, I think I may even have made the suggestion myself on occasion, but the then leader of this government used to point out to me with great pride that if I needed more help it was up to my political party to get out and find that kind of help, that that was what we had political parties for and that we couldn •t always be depending upon the public purse for every little thing we wanted here and there .

In fact, it took quite an effort to get an office for the Leader of the Opposition in this building when I occupied that post. My first appj.ication to the Minister responsible was unceremoniously dismissed, in no uncertain terms, as being completely unjustified. In fa!Jt, he left the impres sion that he thought I was rather impertinent to think of it, but to the credit of the then leader of the government he took another view, and when I appealed to him as I did on that occ asion he. was kind .enough to let me have a room way up on the third floor -- 333 , I think it was -- one of those generous gestures.

He makes the odd generous gesture and I think that that was ce rtainly one of them, so that this -- (interjec tion) -- Well, you built it better than you knew, because I was able to justify your contention that the Leader of the Opposition could move from that post to that of the Premier of the Province without the assistance that was asked for at that time, and I must say that I found it in the issue no difficulty at all to get along as Leader of the Opposition without either the extra money or the clerical staff that was requested at that time.

So if my experience is to be coun ted for anything, there is:t:t•t a great deal of substance in the proposal made . But I don't want to leave the matter at that, because it might be thought ungenerous if we were to simply rest our position on the treatment that we got, and to say, well it was good enough for us, it's good enough for them. I don't think I would like to rest on that position.

Last year the Leader of the Opposition did make a rather eloquent appeal for some considera tion in this respect and I undertook to consider it, and everybody knows that if you undertake to consider anything on this side of the House it is generally expected that you are going to do som ething about it, so we had a word or two on this subject before the Session opened.

I hope I am not betraying any confidence if I should say that -- let me say the point was raised with me, I .think that is the best way to put it -- and I think that we can agree to provide the honour able gentleman with a full-time clerical assi stant in his office. It is not provided for specific ally under this item. It will be taken care of in the general stenographic pool that the govern ment operates, and of course we shall take care to secure some body that has received his approval in this respect, but we will be glad to supply the Honourable gentleman with a full time clerical assi stant for himself.

I hope -- I feel certain that this will immed iately provoke the suggestion from some other honourable gentlemen here, some of whom lead parties and some of whom do not, that they be accor ded similar treatment. I must say, however, in advance, and probably to their disappointment but perhaps not to their surprise, that it has been thought best on this side that we should recognize an Official Opposition and accord them the facilities and the amenities of that office and that we should stop there. I know there is some debate as to whether that policy is fair.

I, myself, do think it is constitutionally correct, and that is the policy that we propose to adhere to in this respect. But I want to tell the Honourable Member for Selkirk that I am holding no grudges here, bygones are bygones, and though I couldn't get it when I was over there, we•ll be happy to see that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition does get that kind of ass istance and I trust that it will be useful to him. MR.

GRAY: I agree with the previous speaker that constitutionally he is right, that the opposition who has one member more than the other opposition should be -- I know it is three now, but there was a time it was only one -- should have the privilege or the constitutional right as being the Leader of the Opposition. Also, I am not opposing the increase of salary or indemnity because I feel that if a person, if he wants a member of this Legislature to do his work right and just, has got to be indemnified of at least part of the losses he has to be and run for the Legislature.

It is a very great expense -- election expense -- number one it is an effort; it interfered with his business; interferes with his livelihood. It is true that the Hon ourable Member from Lake side has an old age pension scheme on his farm. He told me March 13th , 1963 Page 217

(Mr. Gray cont 1d) • • • . • • once that his farm is his old age pension, but others haven •t got it - others haven 1t got it. But my complaint is this. I'm sure if you took a plebiscite in the proVince today every one will tell you, as far as actual genuine opposition to the administration, our group are and have been for a quarter of a century.

I am sure that my leader at the present time is putting in as much work, if not more; brings a stronger opposition; enlightens mo re the public than the government and the opposition -- official opposition; and still he has left -- of quitting his job day in and day out, of leaving the place that he works and makes a living at, interfering with his pension from the CNR, and is always on the job here. I think perhaps either this $6000, or add another addition of money to be given to defray, not his livelihood but his expense.

I think I was present at that secret meeting which you said that you had with the Leaders . I wasn •t told but I d<Y know -- yes, yes, yes, but you said it yourself a minute ago, Mr. Premier. That 's what you said. That•s my understanding. I'm sorry if my hearing is not good, then I apologize and I take my statement back, but I think you must have discussed it.

I can assure you that my leader never told us anything about it, but I bet -- I bet a difference of the price I of beer between the price that is suggested and the price charged, that you must have had a conference with some of the leaders and your own cabinet. I am not objecting to anything that the Honourable Member from Selkirk asked for. I am always for higher salries for everybody, and some day, probably when the bill comes up, I'll make my contribution, but I won 1t do it now.

But I want to register my disapproval that one of the most important groups -- I'm not taking ih Administration -- the opposition groups in this House were and are our group, and if you don 't want to believe me, if you•re smiling, read your Hansard and read the Journals , and you will find there are ma ny, many laws on the statute books that the governments, either the Liberals or the Conservatives, have introduced after we have tried to get it for years and years .

I don't know whether I'll have my head chop ped off by my group for getting up .now, but I felt -- and I'm speaking in my own name -- I felt that an injustice ha s been done to our group. . • . . • . • • • . Continued on next page Page 218 March 13th, 1963

MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Ch airman; I tried to get up before the Honourable Member for Inkster did, to thank the Premier for his announcement insofar as staff for my office . It is true that last year I had spoken about this in the House and indicated what was being do.ne else where . My colleague the Member from Selkirk has this year .

The government has been very good in providing·me with an office here in the Building, and I thanked the Premier for that last year and I do again now, but as I pointed out then, it's extremely difficult to make use of that office, however , with no staff, because it means that if you are absent at all there is no one to take care of it and you simply cannot proceed and do business; you can't get letters typed and so on; and those were the reasons for which I asked last year for full-time staff. I feel sure , Mr. Chairman, that this is in the interests of good government.

Our system operates on a government with opposition. This is true of many fields in our whole system . Our economics works on the basis of competition and I think there is nothing better in business, for example , than good competition. Similarly, here in government I think that while the government has the responsibility of running the province, the Opposition has a very serious responsibility in providing responsible and useful opposition to the proposals of the government.

In this way we can get the best government possible and probably the best laws to suit our people, so when I asked for staff it was simply on the basis that in order to do the job which I hold, I felt that this was necessary. I appreciate the announcement that the First Minister has made today and I thank him very much for it. I am sure it will make for certainly more effective work on our part, and I hope , better government in the Province of Manitoba. MR . FROE SE: Mr. Chairman, I am in full support of giving the Leader of the Opposition the assis tance that he will now be getting.

I am in a different position. I have no one else to speak for me so I'll have to speak on my own behalf, and I feel that -- I would appreciate getting some stenographic help, especially during the time that the Sessi ons are on. I know the other parties have their committee rooms . I don't know whether this help that they have is paid for by the governmen t or whether they pay for it themselves. I'd like to rece ive some verification on this matter and wonder whether something could be made available for me in . this case . MR· CHAIRMAN: (

c) passed. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, apparently the First Minister of this Legislature and the Leader of the .Opposition in the past have been pres umptuous enough to raise in the debate their own peculiar position, and they having establis hed this precedent maybe I should say a word or two in connection with democratic government and its operation. Now I'm not preach ing for a call . I realize quite fully that the Honourable the First Minister has already indicated what the answer of government would be if there were other requests forthcoming from other parties, and as he said this , Mr .

Chairman, be was looking directly at me because of the fact that I'm sure that in the past this question ha s arisen. I rose on one occasion I recall, a few years ago, in support of the then leader of t4e CCF Party, who in my opinion was doing ju st as much work in the interests of the good government of Manitoba as the then Leader of the Opposition, the present First Minister. Now as far as I'm personally concerned it isn't a question of dollars and cents.

I'm perfectly happy, whether it's justifiable or not, to act as the Leader of my party in this House at exactly the same indemnity as a member who may be in this House from one sessi on to the other and never take

part in any debate, and I think it will be appreciated by the members of the House that this is no� possible for me to tak.e the position that I have to take in this House without a considerable amount of research and a con siderable amount of detailed study on various matters that are of concern of the Province of Manitoba. I appreciate very much the fact that the present government has made available to the Leader of the party that I repres ent office accommodation on a twelve-months basis. I find it most handy.

Unfortunately ill the type Of employment that I am in at the present time , it is not possible for me to use it at all times, Now the main reason in ris ing at this parti cular time is not a personal appeal, but the Honourable the First Minister mentioned some thing about the constitutionality of the set-up in government. I believe it is a fact that the Leader of the third group, the New Democ ratic Party, in the·Province of Ontario has provis ion made in the Es timates within that province for help and assistance insofar as he is con cerned in the pursuance of his activities.

I would suggest this to the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition when he tries to pinpoint the question of government and opposition, it's a March 13th, 1963 Page 219

(Mr . Paulley, cont'd) ••••• throwback to what I don't think any longer eXists in the Dominion of Canada, that is, the old two-party sys tem of government. I think that we have to recognize today that that is no longer valid -- at least no longer valid, I suggest, Mr. Ch airman, west of Quebec. So while I say that I am not preaching for a call at the present tim e, I think that the matte r should be given consideration as to additional aid insofar as whoever may be the Leader of this group in the Legislature .

I appreciate very much, and I recall quite vividly the remarks of the Honourable the First Minister last year when we were dealing with the Estimates, that it was up to us on -- if I recall correctly when this question was raised, be said to me something to the effect , "Well Rus s, you get out and work and maybe you'll be the Opposition and will receive the benefits of the indemnity and additional assis tance of the Oppos ition. 11 Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to say what is very very obvious , we did try and we tried real hard.

I'm not very sa tis fied, as we all know, with the results of that , but I do think that we could have worked harder in the interests of dem ocracy and the interests of government of Manitoba if there was more availability for resea rch within our group. Again, Mr . Chairman, as far as I'm personally concerned, irrespective of whether we're recognized or not financ ially, we are recognized in accordance with the laws of the Ass embly as a party in the Province of Manitoba. We have at least 15 percent of the total votes that were cast in support of our party.

I think that in the interests of good government, not for me, Russ Paulley personally, • but in the interests of good government, that this matter should be given consideration . My honourable colleague for Inkster, and I want to thank him for his flattery when he says, at least inferred, that as Leader of this group I make more proposals and suggestions and take a more effective

part in opposition than even that of the Official Opposition, and I want to thank him for that •• (interje ction) .. No, it wasn't wishful thinking. I think, Mr . Chairman, I think that it's an absolute fact. It was recorded officially in the press insofar as the last House was concerned when we were only one member less than the Official Opposition, that on •••. ,p ardon? A MEMBER: The last House ? MR .

PAULL EY: Yes, the last House , we were one less than the Official Opposition, which seat cost me $3 , 500 , but apart from that, the press at that time recognized the effect iveness of our party in the Legislature , and I want to assure this House that insofar as we seven are concerned now, as against 13 -- in a dice game I'd rather have seven than 13 at any time -- and I'm sure that the people of Manitoba will get far more value from the seven than they will the thirteen . MR . CH AffiMAN: (

b) passed; (

c) passed ; (

d) passed; (

e) passed. Resolution No. 1 passed. MR . CAMP BELL : With regard to (

e) Mr. Chairman, the operation of the recording equipment. Is it under this item that we should ask what to me is an annual question, about the number of subscriptions to Hansard? If my honourable ·friend would prefer that it be taken up under his Estimate s it's •.• • MR . EVANS: Whichever you like . It is within my .•• • MR . CAMPBELL: ••..•• • just as leave , if it's in my honourable friend's department, would he make a note of it in case •••• time? MR . EVANS: Yes, I'm able to answer at the moment . MR . CAMPB ELL: Thank you. MR . EVANS: Paid subscriptions to Hansard, 224; free list, 159; total , 383 . MR .

CAMP BELL: Does my honourable friend have last year's figures shown at the same MR . EVANS: I have not. I can get them put in my honourable •••. MR . CAMPBELL: They're on record I think. Than k you. MR . PAULL EY: •••••••. this item . Does this just include the remuneration for the gentleman who does the recording of the Sessions? .. This is the item , is it, dealing with that?

Is the increase of $150 as I see it just applicable to the recorder, because if it's not, I question as to whether or not the item is sufficient for the valuable job that is being done by the oper ator , and I want to pay a tribute to Mr . Ray Sly for the valuable work that he does. I think that when we daily receive copies of Hansard that we_ should pay a tribute to this young man for Page 220 March 13th, 1963

(Mr . Paulley, cont'd) • • • • the capable manner in which he is able to switch over from one to the other and fully record the debates that happen in this House, and I would suggest that if this is the item , in my opinion Mr. Chairman, the increase is insufficient when we take into consideration the increases that have been made to oth ers in the House on this occasion. MR . CH AffiMAN: 2 (a) . MR . CAMPB ELL: I think the -- is the Minister getting information on that subject? MR . EVANS : Salary of the operator of the recording equipment? MR . CAMP BELL: Is this the item ? MR .

EVANS: The operation of the recording equipment, salaries $ 1,1 00 . 00, MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, may I raise the point that in my opinion this is totally inadequate for a gentleman that has to sit here day after day listening to much of the balderdash and harangue that goes on in this Chamber -- it' s certainly worth more than $ 1, 100 to the individual and I would suggest that the government give consideration to making it a little more remunerative . ;MR , CAMPBELL: Mr .

Chairman, I don't rise to deal with the same point. that my honourable friend has, although I would certainly agree with him that the operator of this equipment does an excellent job and I'd extend my compliments to him too, but what I wou ld like to say here -- and for me this may again be a concession -- because I would like to record the fact that I think the Hansard staff as well , is doing a good job .

Perhaps I don't very often pay compliments in this Chamber; perhaps I usually rise for other reasons , and I am not un mindful of the fact that I am one who opposed the introduction of Hansard into our proceedings, not for the reasons that have been ascribed to me , because many people have continued to say it was because of the cost. It was not because of the costs but mainly because I was afraid that it would encourage the practice -- and I think it has -- of reading of speeches in this House ; something that I deplore.

However , that isn •t the fault of the Hansard staff, and I think that they have done an excellent job and I think that the Hansard continues to get bette r and better. I'm not speaking of its contents . I'm speaking of the job that's done in producing it, and I am one who has not been noted as being an enthus iast in the olden days for the service itself. I think that the folks who are in charge of it have been doing a very excellent job and I think that a lot of members have probably noticed that we have fewer corrections now than we used to have . I think this is all to the good. MR .

CH AffiMAN: Resolution 1 passed; item 3 (

a) passed. MR. MOLGAT: Unfortunately I had to be out for a moment at the very beginning of the discussio n of estimate s. I wondered if the ministers could provide us at the very outset with a list of numbers of "stands". I believe this was done last year and if it could be done before we go further into estimate s, I think it will save us all a good deal of time and then we can simply make our own calculations from there. MR .

ROBLIN: Mr .C hairman, I have a tabulation here that was given to me today and I can see that members will get this by tomorrow, but in the meanwhile I can give any information that's requested. For example in the Comptroller-General's Department, the staff provided these estimates No . 70. MR . CAMPB ELL: Mr . Chairman, I agree with that point and I have another one that I would like to raise .

I notice that the salary of the Comptroller-General is given here, but in the most of cases the salaries of the Deputy Ministers are not given and I would suggest that we have, as we had last year, a list provided as soon as possible that gives the salaries of the Deputy Minis ters and the chairmen of Boards and Commissions , and then a lis t of any that there might be who have received extra remuneration in addition to the regular salary. I think, Mr .

Chairman, that it would be better if these were shown in the estimate s; then as I say, it would be-better. if the. other salaries were shown, but if that's not going to be done , then if we could have as early as possible in the day a list showing them, it would be useful. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, while we're on the subject of lists , there's one other that -- in fact there m ay be . others as well, if not right in this department, we 're coming up to it next -- and that's the grants that are given out by the government.

Each year the question is asked and ••• ••• have to be a long string, if they could simply be produced on a Gestetner machine, then it would, I think, sa ve time for all concerned. MR . CAMPB ELL: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the other salaries in this item , I notice March 13th, 1963 Page 221 I

(Mr . Campbell , cont'd) ••• • •• something that is quite unusual in governmental circles, that the total amount is down. I presume that that is because of the operation of the central pro cessing equipment. Is that correct? MR. ROBLIN: As my honourable friend will observe, it's not down by any significant amount as things go in this field, but it is because we have reduced the number of audit clerks • The amounts payable to audit clerks is down considerable becaus e of the introduction of other methods other than manual. MR.

CAMPBELL: As my honourable friend s·ays, it's not down any very large amount, that's true, but •• •• • MR; ROBLIN: .• ; ••• as these things go, I think $9 , 000 is a lot of money and I'm rather . pleas ed at having saved it. MR . CAMPBELL : That's right. I wasn't going to deal on that point; I was going to say that it was the· trend that I was noticing, because the usual trend here and other places is up. I'm not criticizing that; I'm jus t asking about the operation of the central processing data, if that's what it's called. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed; (

b) pas se d; Resolution 2 passed. Item 4 passed? MR . PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, is thls the item that deals with the question of the statutes of the province and the binding and the likes of that? MR . ROBLIN: .... ... MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, I would like to raise the question, or ask the question, as to whether or not the government is giving any consideration for another revision of the statutes of the province . The las t one, I believe, was in 1954; at least it's dated 1954 -- I think it was started prior to that -- it's ten years now or almost ten years .

I don't know what difficulties the legal fraternity has when they have to deal with cases in court, etcetera, in finding out the revi sions and the amendments and changes in legislation annually, but on your poor CNR worker as I am, I have great difficulty in having to thumb through 10 or 12 volumes of the statutes of the Province of Manitoba in order to find out whether black is white or whether it's orange or green, and I would like to ask of the responsible minister whether or not steps are being taken· for another revision of the statutes, and if not why not; and if so, when might we expect a new revision of the statutes of Manitoba.

Particularly, Mr. Chairman, would I suggest this is necessa ry because it seems to me that each year, give or take a little , that there are more amendments and changes in legislation than there were in past years. I have in my office at the present time most of the statutes going back to 1912 and '13, and I notice that they're very very thin volumes, and when we compare them with the activities of legis latures in the past ten years, the volumes are almost as thick as three or four years of the changes in statutes that they were previously, and I raise this point, Mr.

Chairman, for some comments from the responsible minis ter's office . MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman , it is a fact that we are now proceeding with the revis ion of the statutes. A special st aff has been hired to carry it on. The Attorney-General is pre pared to deal with that in his.es timates, but I can give this advance information to my honour able friend. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, it is dealt within the es timates of the Attorney-General beca use I've just glanced at the estimates.

I must confess that it was just a glance ; I didn't note any provision in the estimates of the Attorney-General's Department and that's why I asked the question as to whether or not on this item that this matter was covered. MR • .CHAIRMAN ••••• passed; Resolution 3 passed. Department II, Executive Council . Item 1 (

a) pas sed; (

b) passed. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, we have an addition here this year under Executive Council; that's the Minister without Portfolio . Could the Firs t Minister indicate what will be the expected duties? MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, I do not think that that is a question which I ought to answer in any detail for my honourable friend, not becaus e I wis h to be uncivil, but that it really is the business of the Executive Council as to how we employ this gentleman.

He will be a member of the Executive Council and undertake the duties that are assigned to ·him there , and I think my honourable friend will understand if I say that I don't think I sh ould give any enlargement on that ans wer. Page 222 March 13th, 1963 I

MR . CHAmMAN: (

a) passed; (

b) passed. Resolution 4 passed. Item 2 •••• MR. CAMPBELL: Did we get the number of salaries here, or is that going to be furn ished as a •• ••• MR. ROBLIN: Mr . Chairman, I can give the information here on the salaries. The Premier's office -- se:ven. MR . CAMPBELL: Seven? MR . ROBLIN: Seven. MR . CAMPBELL: Tharik you. MR . CHAmMAN: Item.2 pas sed. Re!lolution 5 pass ed. MR. MO LGAT: This is about the same as las t year. I take it that there is no expect- ation of a conference this year; is that correct? MR. ROBLIN: My honourable friend knows as much about it as I do, I'm �raid. MR . CHAffiMAN: .. ... ,. ...

Resolution 6. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr . Chairman, I'm always at a loss to know, when it comes to grants and miscellaneous here, where to find them all and where to speak on this subject matter, because when we get into roadside parks and one thing and another, it •• ••• MR. R OBLIN: •••••• would be prepared to make a st atement on grants -- it may answer some of his questions -- because it is quite true that grants· are scattered through the estim ates . Those grants which apply to a particular department are as a rule included in the grant figure for that department.

For example, there are a large number of health grants, welfare grants, grants of various sources. Well, they are included in the figures for that department, and as we come to the department you'll probably notice an item for grants and you'll have a chance to enquire as to what those are.

There are a number of grants that don't belong to anybody in particular, mostly of a cultural nature, and those wind up in this particular item that we see before us now, and I would like to place on the record so that members will have the information, the grants that,.are proposed to be paid out of this estimate for the coming fiscal year. Although members may not get them all down today, they'll be in Hansard to morrow and will be on the record for all to see.

The grants that we have here are as follows: Manitoba Drama League, $1000, 00; Manitoba Theatre Centre, $7 , 000 . 00; La Cercle Moliere , $500 .0 0; Manitoba Museum Assoc iation, $7, 000 .0 0; Historic Sites Advisory Board, $1, 000.0 0; Winnipeg Art Gallery Ass ociation, $12 ,0 00. 00; Men's Musical Club of Winnipeg Limited, $2, 000 .0 0; Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra Limited, $18 ,0 00. 00; Royal Winnipeg Ballet of Canada, $12,0 00. 00; Brandon Arts Council, $3 ,0 00. 00; St.B oniface Museum Assoc iation, $1 0,0 00. 00; Frontier College, $500 .0 0; Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, $2 ,50 0.0 0; Canadian Area of Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, $500 .0 0; Canadian Highway Safety Conference, $1 ,2 00. 00;.R oyal Canadian Humane Association, $100 .0 0; Manitoba League of the Blind, $100 .0 0; La!lt Post Fund, $250 .0 0; Boy Scout Assoc iation, $2 ,5 00 .0 0; The Girl Guide Association, $2 ,0 00 .00.

That leaves unallocated a sum of around $7 ,0 00 .0 0 out of the $90, 000, which is in reserve for contingencies that are unknown at the present time .and which may arise during the course of the, coming year. Now if there are any questions about any particular grant that anyone wishes to ask about I would like to do my best to answer. I notice in reading through here that I don't seem.to have mentioned the Rainbow Stage, and there is an allocation to be proposed which apparently didn't get into these estimates -- this book -- when it was prepared, I think of $2 ,5 00 .0 0 this year.

I want to assure the House that this is not being made so that they may reconsider. their decision to fire me as an honourary patron of their associa tion. I hav.:l had to accept that blow as things stand, but when their case was made this year, they did convince us that this � as something which we ought to recommend to the House as worthy of support in this way, so there is, I think, a $2 , 500 grant for that particular group. MR . SCHREYER: The First Minister mentioned $2, 500 as being allocated for the Commonwealth Parliamentary Assoc iation.

I'd like to know if that's for the Canadian Branch or does that include money set aside for sending a representative overseas to the Common wealth Conference? MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, as I read that perhaps the Honourable Member didn't get it. $2 ,5 00 goes to the Headquarters , and $500 goes to the Canadian Area Association. MR . MOLG AT: Mr . Chairman, I was going to remark to the First Minister when he read the list that I didn't see Rainbow Stage, and I know that last year we had asked for con- March 13th, 1963 Page 223 I

(Mr. Molgat , cont1d) •••• sideration for this group because we felt that they were doing a very worthwhile tourist work, as a matte r of fact , by their summer presentation and I am happy to see that they have been added to the group this year . I wonder if the Minister could table the list that he has given to us. Could it not be given to us in a form, because it would be easier for us , I think, if we did this and simply put it in our own books and then next year if we have to refer we can see any changes that occur .

Insofar as the Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference, I wonder if the Minister could indicate exactly how the two groups work. There's the Canadian group who meet once a year, and this varies from province to province ; then there's an overall group that meets elsewhere outside of the country, and what is the relation ship between the two , and how often does that other group meet ? MR . ROBLIN: The Canadian Associa tion is a branch of the Commonwealth Asso ciation. Both of them meet annually . MR . GRAY: Mr . Chairman, another question in connection with this Parliamentary organization.

Do ·you expect .to see the day when a common member of this House could be appointed as a delegate? MR . ROBLIN: Members of the House have been appointed to the -- at least to the Can adian Area Ass ociation. MR . GRAY: Oh Canadian, yes, but I'm waiting for an overseas cruise ••••• MR . LAURENT DESJARDINS (St . Boniface) : The Honourable First Minister mentione d a sum of $7 ,0 00 for Manitoba Museum . I wonder if he could elaborate or explain this. He's talking about this $7, 000 for tlie Manitoba Museum ; what does this include? MR . ROBLIN: Mr.

Chairman, I'd just like for the benefit of the Press to warn them not , if they would be kind enough, to not to publish the figure on the Rainbow Stage until I have had a chance to confirm that I gave accurate information. I just beard that perhaps I didn't ; it's another sum . So let's not -- let's just leave that until I am able to give the correct, the accurate information to the House . My honourable friend asked about the Manitoba Museum , was it not?

Well, the way this works is that originally, the group concerned submits a brief to the Provincial Government indicating why in their opinion they are entitled to some public support , and then they usually accompany that with a statement of their financial situation and where they get their money from , and their suggestions , usually rather ambitious , as to what share of that total cost the government should be asked to contribute, and what we try to do is assess the relative merits of the propo sals that are put before us when compared with the amount of money in total that is available for distribution in this general field of cultural grants, and members may realize that this is not an enviable task, because it is extremely difficult to be sure that one 's judgment is absolutely sound and right in weighing up the merits of various worthy groups, and believe me , there are a number of very worthy associa tions that come to us and ask for help, and it is quite a problem .

So what we try to do is to pay special attention to those groups which are provincial in their character, that is, that either are represented all over the province ,o r who operate as a provincial associa tion designed to benefit all the people of the province even though of necessi ty they may be located in one particular place and therefore it follows that the people nearer them probably bxve a better chance of making use of their facilities than others do. But that's just one of those things you can't get away from.

But we try to weigh up those cultural organizations which seem· to be worthy of support in this way, and one of the ideas that we have introduced recently is that we will take an organization and make a small basic grant to it, which is a no-stri ngs-attached grant, and then we say, "You also raise money from the public, and on certain terms and conditions and between certain levels we will match what you get from the public ." So that we are certain that there is a measure , a meas ure of public support for what this organization is doing and that they are not simply perh1aps an in grown group that are living on themse lves and coming and asking for government support with out any real roots in our community .

So we try to combine a basic grant with this matching principle. Now I know there are some membere; of the House that don't believe in matching grants , and I suppose it may be the case in this instance too , but we think it is a good thing to encourage these people to get public support in the knowledge that it will also attract an addit ional meas ure of public support as well, and that's the formula that we use with the Manitoba Museum of which my Honourable Friend enquired, and the amount that's given to these organ- Page 224 March 13th, 1963 I

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd).... izations is purely an arbitrary amount, it must be admitted . I mean to say, who is to really say whether a museum should get $7, 000 or $70 ,0 00? It's a very difficult question to decide and I'd be the last one to say that we got exactly the right balance, but we have a rough idea how much money the Legislature is likely to approve in this respect. It's increased about three times in the past few years and we try to apportion it to groups that have what we trust is a legitimate claim for public support. I hope that gives my honourable friend what he's looking for. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr .

Chairman, I certainly wasn't questioning the amount but I cer tainly welcome the information that the First Minister gave us . My reason for this question - I wanted to know if the Eskimo Museum in Churchill qualified under this . I don't think there was ever a letter written fo

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-1-13
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 1st hansardpdf 13.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	600e4bbd6fdb9916bb713668cf5a820d1065ee2c

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