Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 9 (29th Legislature, 5th Session)

29-5-9

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10:00 o' clock, Fr iday, March 2, 1973 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 187 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 35 students of Grade Five standing of the Iles Des Chenes Elementary School. They are under the direction of M. d'Auteulil. This sc hool is lo cated in the Constituency of the Honourable Member for Springfield, the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. We also have 45 students of Grade Eleven Standing of St. Paul's Collegiate.

These stu dents are under the direction of Mr. Felsher and Mrs. Oleson. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Morris . On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Ass embly I welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions ; Reading and Rec eiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion; In�roduction of Bills; Oral Questions. ORAL QUEST ION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside) : Mr.

Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General. Can the Attorney-General inform me whether or not an information has been laid against Dr. Kasser and Dr. Reiser? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A. H. MACKLING Q. C. (Attorney-G eneral)(St. James) : Mr. Speaker, as hon ourable members in this Hous e know, a Commission of Enquiry was appointed in respect to all of the matters dealing with The Pas Forestry Complex.

Also during the course of the enquiry the Attorney-Generalinstructeacouns el in respect to investigations dealing with matters indica ting some liability; those investigations have been ongoing. Certain charges were laid pursu ant to which certain information was obtained by search warrants and otherwise and those charges are st ill pending. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary for clarification. Have charges been laid? MR. MACKLING: I answered that in the affirmative, Mr. Speaker. MR. ENNS: Another supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Attorney-General can tell me has he issued instructions to serve warrants in this matter. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the question is too vague for me to respond to with precision. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR0 GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie) : Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General. Could he tell us approximately when the charges were laid against Kasser and Reis er? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR.

MACKLING: I don't have that precis e information before me but certainly it was some many months ago pursuant to investigations in order to expedite further investigations and the securing of further documentations. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Could the Attorney-General tell the House why the charges were not brought to court by this time? MR. MACKLING: The investigations into this matter, Mr. Speaker, have been a very complex -- and they have taken a great deal of time.

The charges of cours e will proceeded with on the basis of the advice of couns el arid the timing will be based in accordance with the best advice obtainable and certainly the Crown will take into consi deration the expressed in terest of the Commission of Enquiry itself. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Another question to the Attorney-General. Is the statement that Chief Justice Tritschler, which he made recently, to the effect that the lack of laying and pressi ng of charge in this matter has seriously prejudiced the ability to now proceed with criminal charges. Does the Attorney-General agree with that statement?

188 March 2, 1973 ORAL QUEST ION PERIOD MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the suggestions that have been made in court will be responded to in court and I think that it would be improper for me to indicate otherwise.

I want to make it very clear, I don't want any confusion in respect to the answer I gave earlier that the charges, or any civil proceedings, any proc eedings recommended to the Crown, will be considered as and when they are received and on the best advice obtainable, including the advice of the Crown Attorneys themselves and others, we will determine the timing of the proc eeding or taking of these proceedings. And we'll certainly take into consideration the expressed indicated wishes of the Commission itself. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD MCGILL (Brandon West) : Mr.

Speaker, my question is also for the Hon ourable the Attorney-General. Has the Attorney-General's Office been contacted by Mr. Sweatman or by any other person concerning an application to institute proceedings against Mr. Kasser or Mr. Reiser? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Sp eaker, Mr. Sweatman, as I understand, is couns el for a group of people who had contractual negotiations with certain persons who then entered into agree ments with the Manitoba Development Corporation and the Manitoba Government.

I don't, I don't understand or clearly know the rationale for the letters but I received copies of letters that were addressed to Crown couneel and these copies appare ntly emanated from Mr. Sweatman. MR. MCGILL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Attorney-General could say whether or not he will be repres ented in court when the application is dealt with. MR. MACKLING: I would think that likely. MR. MCGILL: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary question.

Have discussions been held with the members of the staff of the CFI Enquiry Commiss ion, or members of the Commission, concerning the effect of such criminal proc eedings on the activities or the re port of the Commission. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the Commission of Enquiry has made it quite clear to Crown couns el and certainly to the Attorney-General that they are most anxious that the Commission of Enquiry 's work be completed and they are most concerned about the timing of any criminal prosec utions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: A further question, Mr.

Speaker, directed at the Attorney-G eneral. I wonder if the Attorney-General can tell the House whether or not the government's special counsel, Mr. Gallagher, has not in fact advised the government to proceed with the pros ecu tions at this time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney- General. MR. MACKLING: The advice of Crown attorneys to the Crown in respect to proc eedings is a matter of extreme confidentiality and I don't think that it would be proper for me to re flect on that in answer to a question. I, Mr.

Speaker, have perhaps been more than fair in ans wering the generality of questions, I don't want to rely on any defense of sub judice becaus e we want to be as fair and open in answering questions as possible but I really don't think that the precis e question that the honourable member asked should be answered by me. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. (Izzy) ASPER (W olseley): Well Mr. Speaker, the Attorney-General in view of his observation relative to confidentiality, could he tell this Hous e how Mr. Sweatman as counsel for the owners, former owners of M. P.

Industrial Mills, as I understand it, was able to have the information that an information had been laid when members in this House did not have that information? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I have indicated that the only communication I have had from Mr. Sweatman is that he has had someone deliver to me photo copies of certain letters that he left in- that he addressed to Crown couns el. I don't know the basis on which Mr. Sweatman has information. MR. ASPER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. HON.

EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere ) : Yes, Mr. Speaker on reflection, a question asked in this Hous e as to why a private practitioner of law did, or didn't do ,

March 2, 1973 189 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR, SCHREYER cont'd) ....• something is clearly out of order; or as to how he may have come into possession of certain information. --(Interjection)-- A private practitioner. HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona}: He wants to know every thing th:oi,t. . • MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR, ASPER: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I presume the First Minister has understood the basis of the question.

The question is how a document, a charge, an informa tion, which is the height of confidentiality could be found in the hands of a private practitioner. That's the question. That's quite an appropriate question. MR, SPEAKER: Orders of the Day, The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I have a question that !would like to direct to the Honour·able the Minister of Agriculture. Is it the intention of the Minister to call the meeting at an early date of the Standing Committee on Agriculture once it's appointed to deal with the problems of the additional zone association?

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture)(LacDu Bonnet): Mr.Speaker, the pro blems of the additional zone association have been with us for some time, so that it's not a matter of urgency that one has to call the committee together in which case they might deal with it. It's one of continuing -- one that requires continual research and analysis from many points of view and in respect from the assessment question, the point of view of assessment. I don't think that a convening of that committee is going to resolve that particular problem.

It has much more depth than that, Mr. Speaker. MR. FROESE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Is it the intention of the government to introduce or reintroduce the Municipal Tax Deferral Act? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs)(Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I think that only time will tell as to whether that bill will be reintroduced this session or not. Presently it's being reviewed. MR. FROESE: A further question to the same Minister.

Is the government considering revising the basis on which the farm land assessment is being made? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question I might refer the honourable member, and I'm sure he is already aware of the fact, that very fruitful meetings are being held between myself and others with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities which covers a large, large area of matters involving assessment, part of which is that dealing with farm assessment. So to that extent I would say the answer .would be yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR, JOSEPH P, BOROWSKI (Thompson): Mr.

Speaker, I have a couple of questions for the Attorney-General regarding free legal aid, Will he be filing a report in the House giving a breakdown of expenditures with a further breakdown of the type of crime that was most fa ·voured by free legal aid. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: I'm not so sure, Mr. Speaker, whether the kind of report that I'll be able to make will satisfy the honourable member, but certainly there will be report indicating the statistical work of the Legal Aid Society. While I'm on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, alluding back to the questions that were asked, I don't want any honourable members to be under misapprehension that there is some suggestion on the part of Attorneys advising the Crown that we delay criminal prosecutions, but I do want to indicate clearly that in respect to the pursuit of criminal prosecutions, the opinion and concern of the Enquiry Commission itself has been made to the Crown and that concern will be taken into consideration in the timing of criminal prosecutions. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, a further question.

Could the Attorney- General indi cate any of the 12 that were caught at the university with Pot, have any of the 12 of those people applied for free legal aid? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I think that it may well be -- I'm not in possession of that information, but if they did and they were otherwise eli_gih\e, that is on the basis of their

190 March 2, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. MACKLING cont'd) .. .. . lack of means, then pursuant to the terms of operation of the Legal Aid Society, they would be awarded legal counsel. MR. SPEAKER: Last supplementary. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this is a separate question. Is the Attorney General contemplating laying charges against Arthur D. Little who are responsible for the expenditures, the overseeing of the expenditures under the previous government and this government, of all the moneys that are spent at the CFI plant. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, the Commission of Enquiry has been amassing ex haustive evidence, as I understand, and likely will be making recommendations and I think maybe one of the obvious recommendations may be along the lines that the honourable member suggests. I know that that thought hasn't escaped my mind. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General.

Can he assure the House that the proceedings so far by the government, or the actions by the government, will not jeopardize the opportunity to take extradition pro cedures by the Crown to have Dr. Kasser and Dr. Reiser brought back for trial. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the Crown through the Attorney-General is most anx ious that where criminal liability involves those who are outside of this country, that we be enabled to prosecute those people as if they were within Canada, and naturally our actions will be governed accordingly.

It is our desire to see that justice is done. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, question is still to the Attorney-General. Did he mean to convey the impression to this side of the House, as he did to me, that there is a conflict of advice to the government between the Crown prosecution side and the Commission of Enquiry? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, it is not uncommon for there to be differences of opin ion both in this House and by experts outside of this House and certainly you know that happens. MR. ASPER: Is it not a fact, or is it not the case ... MR.

SPEAKER: The question is argumentative. Would the honourable member re phrase it. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, thank you. The question to the Attorney-General is, does he regard the Commission of Enquiry terms of reference, as including the investigation of criminality? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member asks a question which is out of order. He's asking for a legal opinion from me about the terms of reference and - (Interjection)-- well the question according to the rules, and the honourable member is a lawyer and should try to follow the rules, but the question calls for legal

interpretation and I am not about to accommodate him. MR. ASPER: The question, a supplementary is , has the disclosure through this un usual court proceeding yesterday, prejudiced the Attorney-General's ability to prosecute criminally now? MR. MACKLING: I think, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member does a disservice to the court and to everyone else in asking such a silly question. MR. · SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a further question to the Attorney-General.

I wonder if the Attorney-General can inform the House how many times the commission, either individually or collectively, has met with cabinet to discuss the criminal action, oppose criminal action. MR. MACKLING: I'm not in, Mr. Speaker, I'm not in a position to reflect that there has been --to my knowledge there has been no meeting of the Commission with the cabinet of this government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Osborne. MR. IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney General.

Is it the intention of the Attorney-General to permit the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission to change its regulations to allow legions to increase their affiliate membership? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General.

March 2, 1973 191 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, this has been a matter of continuing concern, represen tations have been made by some of my colleagues on this side of the House in respect of this matter, and I appreciate they reflect the concerns of many people in their constituencies and otherwise.

I have also had representation made directly by members of the executive of the Veterans Associations themselves in the presence of members of the Liquor Control Commis sion Board and it is my understanding that the Liquor Control Commission Board has made a policy decision in favour of an expansion of affiliate membership, and that that is being commu nicated. MR. TURNBULL: I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, Do those regulations allow legions to increase their affiliate membership to thirty percent of their regular member ship? MR.

MACKLlNG: I believe that is the case, and for the honourable member who from his seat asserts that that is a question of government policy, I would like to indicate to him that it's a question of policy determined by the Board of the Liquor Control Commission, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker I ha ve a question for the Attorney General. Is the Attorney-General investigating possible misuse of funds of $45, OOO from grants to Rolling River School Division? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKIJNG: Mr.

Speaker, I have had - I have had no correspondence that I have seen; I have had a telephone call evidencing concern about the use or the debt of $45, OOO. 00. I have had conversations with my colleague; I understand the matter has been reviewed, It does not appear on the surface to be a matter that should involve the Attorney-General's de partment but rather it's an administrative procedure in the Department of Education, Until I'm advised, or I can see a basis for any change, I would not think that the Department itself would have a role to play. MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Speaker, I have a supplementary, but I will place my question to the Minister of Education. Has the Education Finance Board requested repayment of the $45, OOO. 00? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education)(Burrows): Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. Last supplementary. MR. PATRICK: Has the $45, OOO been repaid, or is there any indication it will be repaid? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is an indication. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development and I would like to ask him whether an inspector force, or some similar type agency, is necessary, is going to be necessary, to police Manitoba's Drug Substitution Laws? Whether an inspector force or some similar type agency is going to be necessary in order to police Manitoba's Drug Substitution Laws? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development)(Springfield): Yes, Mr.

Speaker,. we've set up, as the honourable member is probably aware, such a committee already that will recommend to government the drugs that are allowed to be substituted. This committee is called the drug quality control committee pertaining to drugs that can be sub stituted, and this will be ongoing pertaining to any additional drugs that are to be added to the list once the list is made known to the general public. Mr. Speaker, while I'm on my feet I would like to reply to a question asked of me by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge in regards to a resignation in my department.

There could be, well there are a lot of individuals employed by the Department of Health and Social Development, some do resign, and the honourable member made reference to Sir Robert Creasy. Mr. Creasy has submitted his resignation to the Department effective March 3lst, 1973, to take a position with the Department of Child Welfare in the N. W, T., as of the first of May, 1973. I am sorry to inform any other member of the House that were not aware of Mr. Creasy's resignation, that it is with regret that I have to accept this resignation.

192 March 2, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister of Health and Social Development. I thank him for his reply but I wonder if he could advise the House of the nature, of the manner in which that advisory committee in the drug substitution field will operate. Will it police the use of drugs and the substitution of drugs, or will it merely receive informa tion and keep a record? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, this committee is set up by legislation. It has its rebllla-, tions. It will recommend on drugs that can be substituted.

It will have an ongoing respon sibility pertaining to the drugs being substituted, and will continue to act as an advisory dommittee to the Minister of Health and Social Development. MR; SHERMAN: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Will it be carrying out a pro gram of regular checks into drugstores and pharmacies and their sales operations? MR, TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, it will to some degree. It will continue to work very closely with the Food and Drug directorate in Ottawa with Paracost in Ontario, and any other programs launched in other provinces in Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa.

MR. DAVID R. BLAKE (Minnedosa) : Mr. Speaker, my question would be a follow up to the question asked earlier by the Horiourable Member for Assintboia, directed to the Minister of Education. Could he inform the House if there are other division boards in Manitoba who've received over--payments of grants similar to the one received by the Rolling River School Division and if so, what division boards would be involved? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, I have no knowledge of any at the present time but I may assure the honourable member that the department does maintain a continuous check, and a double check, on the filing of reports with us on the basis of which grants are paid and if the honourable member wishes • • • • • in any more precise detail I would suggest that it may be an appropriate subject for an Order for Return. · While I'm on my feet, M1'. Speaker, the Honourable Member for Assiniboia asked me a question on February 2Sth which he subsequently rephrased and the answer to which is yes and no. Mr.

Speaker, the question was:- Does the City of Winnipeg have the government's permission to expropriate land for the Inner Perimeter Beltway? The City of Winnipeg- and then later the question was rephrased as to whether the City in fact has the government's permission to expropriate land for the same purpose. The City does not have to seek per mission from the government, or from my department, for any, for all individual purchases of land because the Act,

section 144 of the Act, empowers the City to acquire, lease, pur chase, or expropriate, any lands or interest therein that the City may deem necessary for its purposes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort RougE:): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. Has the government established minimum levels or percentages of private contributions below which it will assume control of Children's Aid Societies? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. · TOUPIN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, pertaining to the grants being made available to Children's.Aid Societies in Manitoba, this is decided by the government and they are changing they have increased over the last three years by 75 percent. The per diems are struck by having officials of the Department of Health an d Social Development meet with officials of Children's Aid Societies and recommend to the Minister and that this is ratified by, or changed, or augmented, or reduced, by cabinet by Order-in-Council. So there isn't a pre set per diem for Children's Aid Societies.

It is negotiated and set upon the needs that are spelt out by the Children's Aid Societies. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a further question for the same Minister. Does the Minister have a report as to who released the list of doctors and their gross in comes from the Manitoba Hospital Services Commission's files to the Winnipeg Tribune, and would he be prepared to table it? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge the Winnipeg Tribune did not make

March 2, 1973 193 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ..... known the names of doctors and their salary as yet, so I'm not in the position to reveal to honourable members whoever in the Health Services commis sion made that information known because to my knowledge this has not been published as yet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, the question is to the Attorney-General.

Would he inform the House whether it was he personally, or a member of his staff, who instructed the stopping of the laying, or rather the prosecution of charges for the six months following the laying of the information which was referred to earlier. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR, MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, if I want to answer the question accurately then I must say no one. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR, FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Services.

Has his department or is tile government acquiescing to a request made by municipalities at their convention in last year and in past years, for in formation to assist them to control the cost of welfare so that there would be no overlapping as far as welfare recipients are concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we are and if the Honourable Member for Rhineland is aware of incidents where the Department of Health and Social Development is not co-opera ting with municipalities I for one would be interested to have facts made known to me so this could be rectified, not only pertaining to allowances being paid to social allowance recipients, whether they be on municipal roles or on provincial assistance, but pertaining equally to work activity projects in different areas in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK Q.

C. (Leader of the Opposition)( River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health and Social Development and it relatei; to his answer to the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. Does the government have in their possession a report of who released confidential information from the Manitoba Health Insurance Corpora tion to the Tribune, Notwithstanding the fact that it wasn't published? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge the information that was published in the Winnipeg Tribune was informati on tabled in this House at the last session. MR. SPIVAK: I have another question.

Does the Minister have in his possession a document indicating that information was given by the Manitoba Health Insurance Corporation to the Winnipeg Tribune, the information being of a confidential nature. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I repeat that the information that I saw in the Winnipeg Tribune myself pertaining to scales of payments made to different specialties in the medical profession in 1971-72 was information th_at was available to all through this House at the last session. MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

SPIVAK: Is the Minister of Health intending any disciplinary action for the infor mation that was leaked from the Manitoba Health Services Insurance Corpora tion, which was confidential, to the Winnipeg Tribune? MR, TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I don't only think that the Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition is fishing but he's actually wanting me to say something that I can't say because I don't take it as a fait accompli that such information was leaked, or made avail able to anyone, by the Health Services Commission.

To my knowledge no information was made available to the Winnipeg Tribune by myself or by the officials of my department, either directly in the Department of Health and Social Development and /or the Manitoba Health Services Commission that was not made available to the members of this House at the last session. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR, ASPER: Mr. Speaker, the question is to the Attorney-General. Is it not the nor mal practice in his department that when the RCMP swear out an information, charges are prosecuted immediately? Is that not the normal practice? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General.

194 March 2, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member now is fishing in an area which is unbecoming of him as a member of this House. I want to assure the honourable member that in certain investigations it is necessary to lay cb3.rges in order to secure the production or the seizure of documentation and that procedure has been followed, and will continue to be followed by the Crown, where advice is indicated to this effect, and that has been the course of action, I think, followed by Attorneys-General and peace officers for a great length of time. MR. ASPER: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. Presumably the Minister -- would he confirm that he, personally, takes responsibility for the decision to withhold the pros ecution of charges for the six months following the laying of the information. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I've made it quite clear that the Crown is anxious to proceed to bring to justice those whom obviously should be brought before the courts.

In proceeding with those charges we will certainly take into consideration the views of the Commission of Inquiry which was given broad terms of reference to investigate the whole of the complexity of The Pas Forestry Complex and I've made that quite clear. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Then is the Attorney-General stating that the work of the inquiry is being used tantamount to a grand jury investigation into the criminality; MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member indulges in fancies.

MR. SPEAKER: Order. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. Order. please. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the question seems to pertain to fishing. Could I direct my question to the Minister of Tourism? Would you agree that fishing is a jerk at one end of the line waiting for a jerk on the other? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, if there are no further questions before Orders of the Day, I would like to refer -- (Interjections)-- MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I would hope that all honourable members would give the courtesy to another member to hear him out before they started to caucus in their own particular little groups. I did recognize the First Minister and I still haven't heard a word he was saying because everyone else was speaking. The First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, as honourable members who have been here in past sessions are aware there is a practice in this House, early after the Throne Speech to pause and direct attention to those former members of this Assembly who have passed on. Now I was about to say, Mr.

Speaker, that if there are no further questions this forenoon that I would like to proceed with the condolence motion, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie then. MR. G. JOHNSTON: First of all I do have a question but before I put the question could I make the observation to the First Minister that none in this corner at least have had any notice of condolences today. We weren't prepared -- (Interjection)-- we don't even know who they are. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister in reply. MR." SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I apologize to my honourable friend for that .

The normal procedure, as I understand it, is to have members who will be called on to second the motion of condolence advised that this is being done, and I have been advised by the Clerk that this has in fact been done. I don't know frankly if the past practice was to advise every single member of the Assembly, I don't know. A MEMBER: No, no. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie wish to. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, before I put my question, we would agree but I don't know how other members feel. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

In regards to the particular question that is being now debated during the Oral Question Period I should like to indicate that it has not been the practice of informing everyone, that normal debate takes place on a motion being made and being properly seconded. The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie - his question.

March 2, 1973 195 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the First Minister who is responsible for Manitoba Hydro. In view of the fact that the Member for Crescentwood yes terday made mention of the fact that the government has an alternative plan for development on the Nelson River but were too stubborn to use it, I ask -- my question is: will the -- first of all the first part of the question is: is there such a plan in the hands of the government or Hydro, and if so would the First Minister table that plan? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I can't really get the full import of the honourable member's question. But to the extent that I believe I understand it, I would say that of course many different alternative plans have been studied by Manitoba Hydro, its own internal en gineering staff, systems planning staff, and outside consultants.

Over a period of six years something close to eight to nine million dollars has been spent on studying alternative plans both in terms of engineering and terms of various aspects of operations and there is a clear and virtually unanimous recommendatiun as to the course to follow, so the answer then in the final sense is negative, negative. There has been no reason to believe that any alternative plan is acceptable as a replacement for that which has been recommended for implementation, and which we have announced. MR. G. JOHNS TON: Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the First Minister.

Would he undertake to ascertain from the Member for Crescentwood which plan he was referring to and · table that plan. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, of course it is possible to check with different individuals who have different points of view as to the ultimately preferable course of action in the development of our energy resources, and I am aware that Professor Lansdowne has a different alternative or approach that he is proposing, in fact I can advise my honourable friend that I met with Professor Lansdowne for over an hour just a matter of three days ago, personally.

Then of course, one would have to follow up with that to meet with someone such as former Premier Douglas Campbell who has another alternative tO propose, which by the way is very close in the case of Churchill River diversion to the way we are proceeding. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

Is he aware of any negotiations going on between he or his government, or anyone on behalf of his government, for the turning over, or the sale of the CFI complex to the people who brought the charges in court yesterday, the Ernst family? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I certainly have no awareness of that. In fact I'd be surprised if that were the case, but I can neither confirm nor deny it, except to express surprise if it were so. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable First Minister. ORDERS OF THE DAY- MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCE MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if it meets with honourable members' approval I want to make that clear to my honourable friends, the Member for Portage , the Member for Rhineland, who perhaps have some perhaps reason for wanting me not to proceed at this time with the condolence motion, surely this is the kind or procedure in this House that ought to meet with the unanimous assent and will of everyone here. If no one is shaking their heads in the negative then I will proceed. · A MEMBER: I didn't hear it if they were. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhi neland. Rising on a point of order. MR. FROESE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, if I may.

I would appeal to the Minister that we delay it until .early next week. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, it's not difficult to accede to the honourable member's request. Accordingly, I would give notice now that because of the sad fact that eight former members of this Assembly have passed on in the interval between this session and the last, eight former members, that I would propose that we not deal with all Condolence Motions on the same day, and accordingly Monday next we would propose to bring forward condolence motions with respect to four honourable members, former honourable members of this

196 March 2, 1973 MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCE (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ..... House now deceased, Messrs. Bjornson, H. B. Scott, Dr. Thompson and -- excuse me for one moment -- and Mr. Fullmore a former member from Dauphin. And then on Tuesday next if it meets with honourable members•·approval we would propose to speak to condolence motions to be sent to the families of the late Gordon Beard, Messrs. Alexander, Shannon and Odur Olafson. MR. SPEAKER: I should like to indicate to the House that in respect to notice of motion there are under our rules it calls for certain notice under certain motions.

But. in the case of condolences it doesn't . I should also like to indicate that possibly we could overcome this stumbling block in the future by the House Leaders conferring on the issue and then there would be no problem. The Honourable House Leader. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Man agement)(Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I would like the Committee of Seven that meets to set up committees, to meet on Monday at 5:30 if that is agreeable. We'd like to get the committees set up very quickly.

I understand that this is one committe that the Clerk does not involve himself in so if we can say now Monday at 5:30, that means immediately that the House ad journs, that we would meet for the purpose of setting up the House Committees. MR. SPEAKER: (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Are other members invited? Is it an open meeting? MR. GREEN: All 57 members of the House, including yourself, will be invited to attend this meeting and if everybody comes we'll have it in a big room. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon. The Honourable Member for Gladstone had some time left open. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. J. R. FERGUSON (Gladstone): Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker, we'll' carry on where we left off last night. And I believe that I completed talking about rail abandonment. I'd like to say a few words now about low cost housing as it pertains to my constituency. I think that this has been quite a project in the Town of Neepawa I believe there are 12 - 14 low cost housing units, and Carberry is in the process of establishing a system of houses.

But I think that one area that has been missed possibly is the rural area, the farms. I don't expect this to be a general blanket policy at all but I think that in some cases on a quarter and a half

section farms where the people are still striving to make a living, they have in many cases quite large families and they have very little alternative if they can't have suitable dwellings but to sell their farms and move in to the urban centres, and I think that this is something that is very undesirable. These children are required to keep our educational facilities going in the rural, our recreational facilities, and I think that possibly a type of housing could be devised whereby they could be moved if it was so desired.

Any moving contractor today will load a house if it's built properly and move it for $200. 00; and I think that if it was required to move this off the original location it could be done without too much problem. Another thing if these people are taken off the farms they are going to add to the welfare rolls of the city; they're going to add more congestion to the school systems, and to the gen eral overall conduct of the urban centres. Something I would like to also bring up is the -- which is a perennial deal-- is the jack lighting situation that we have in the rural areas.

I think all of the rural members here will say that this is no longer just isolated cases, it's a full time business. Our conservation officers are more or less powerless in the event that they are apprehending registered treaty Indians, and it's got to the point now whereby a conservation officer can apprehend these people, they show a treaty number, more or less thumb their nose and drive away. Now I don't think that our deer population is going to be able to absorb this.

I can quote one area in my own constituency, roughly ten miles wide, ten miles long, where there were 29 cases of deer slaughtered illegally last year, as we see it illegally. In many cases the conservation officers did apprehend the people that were involved and they were not able to prosecute. I think that the Attorney-General and the Minister of Mines and Resources should be taking a hard look at

March 2, 1973 197 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR. FERGUSON cont'd) .. ... this. I know it's a federal statute that allows these people to carry on this way, and I'm not saying that the every registered treaty Indian is involved. But I do say that it is something that has got to be stopped. I think that we all should be treated along the same lines. I think the day whereby special privileges are granted should be drawing to a close, and over and above this I feel that the growing hostility between the landlord owners and these trespassers is going to lead to a serious altercation in the very near future.

I think it's happened several times up to this point, and I think it is the duty of this government to at least make some move toward rectifying the situation. I'd like to speak also briefly on the established watershed. This was established last year I believe on March 22-·27, or something along this line. It's going through a period of growing pains. We are definitely going to have to have some boundary adjustments. It is being run by the people at the local level by a very capable chairman, Mr.

Bill Newton, who had had experience in this area for the past 20 years, is familiar with the problems, knows the people that he's working with, and I think that it is well on the way to becoming a well established, well- operated institution, or organization, Now, Mr. Speaker, in closing I would just basically like to go over the general picture as I see it for 1973 in my co nstituency. I think that we're facing a period of good machine sales, car. and truck sales, and in my constituency we have several local industries who are predicting good size sales projects for their -- prospects rather -- for the year.

We are having cutbacks in the Carnation Plant at Carberry due mainly to the entry of Britain into the European Common Market, and this is affecting quite a large area of rural N'..anitoba, from Carberry right over to Winkler as a matter of fac� I think, Mr. Speaker, that during the past 100 years under a free enterprise system that we have raised our standard of living to a. very high level.

Certainly we have had four years of socialist government, I think that this has possibly sped up the implementation of several social measures that wouldn't have been brought in quite as quickly as they have, but I do believe that it is a very good ratio to main tain for the next hundred years to have a healthy and expanding economy and I hope that it happens, which will be 99 years of free enterprise government, and four more years of so cialist government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I have grown accustomed to your place and it wears well with you I wish you continued success. Missing from his place in this Chamber is the late Member for Churchill, I refer to Gordon Beard. I miss him, we all miss him. In the face of diversity he maintained his good nature. He was always a gentleman yet to my assess ment a true reformer, one who was concerned about change to bring about a better society. The scale or the pace of such change we may have disagreed upon. But his sincerity was nevertheless both real and genuine. Now Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to place in the scale of debate some of the contributions of the Official Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Liberal Party both of whom un fortunately are not present with us at this time. Both of these honourable gentlemen seem to measure up with relative uncertainty. However, it's clear, Mr. Speaker, that both represent groups in society who once held power. Powerful interests of corporate wealth who now a.re becoming increasingly frustrated at the seeming inadequacy of the Leader of the Opposition parties to fool the people.

Each is trying very hard; each believes that he is playing a role like in some great play; and perhaps he has taken to heart that famous line, "the world's a stage and everyone, every man must play his part. " But the part to be played, Mr. Speaker, is the reality not the make believe. On the Leader of the Opposition parties the mask of reform that they are attempting to wear fits badly. And rather than looking like real actors and convincing anyone, their performance is becoming more and more of a puppet show. Mr.

Speaker, I ;vas utterly amazed at the kind of diatribe that we heard from two gentlemen who had prepared their speeches very carefully. They had their research staffs exhaust the material that they had prepared, and what do we find? We find on the part of the Leader of the Opposition the continuing harangue about boards and commissions of government. That's an ancient line, Mr. Speaker. It's an ancient line because that's what the Honourable Leader of the Opposition and his somehow Lieutenant, the Member for

198 March 2, 1973 THRONE SPEE CH DEBATE (MR . MAC KLING Cont'd) ..• Lakeside, continue to talk about in this Chamber . And when, Mr o Speaker, I have asked the honourable gentleman -- (Interjection) -- all right you are concerned, we are concerned . You say that you have some just criticism about boards and commissio ns , I am always interested in that . I want to hear that constructive criticism . That's the role of a construct ive, effective, Opposition in this Legislature. Name for me one, just one . -- (Interjection) -- There are many, name me one board or commission that should , that should no longer exist.

Are you suggesting, are they suggesting, Mr . Speaker , that the Public Utility Board is no longer neces sary ? That the Municipal Board is no longer necessary ? What board or commiss ion are they concerned to eliminate ? Are they concerned to do away with the Legal Aid Service Society Board. Is that the one that's the target of their irritation ? What Board is it ? What single Board motivates the vile and invective that they continue to display in respect to the people who have as sumed obligation for the benefit of society .

They cast aspersio ns upon many of the honourable gentlemen and women that they themselves have appointed on boards and commissions in this province . And I think that they should have the intestinal fortitude to indicate the nature of their dis pleasures in a more honest and forthright way . And I say to the honourable mem ber, I say to the Honourable Member , the Leader of the Opposition, who is of course not in earshot of my voic e, that it's highly unbec oming of him to carry on this kind of attack, because it 's not constructive, it's entirely destructive, it's an empty gesture . Now, Mr .

Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition had some other, some other statements to make. He accused this government of being unreachable that the Ministers could not, the Ministers could not be seen by MLAs or people who were concerned .

Well I want the Honourable Member from Sturgeon Creek, and perhaps he can later on indicate whether or not and, you know, let's be fair , and I ask the honourable member to be fair , whether or not I am available to my constituents, one of whom happens to be the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. -- (Interjections) -- I have made myself available; I am not the exception, this is characteristic of this government, and to suggest, and to suggest in this way, as the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has, that this government somehow tries to insulate itself from the people is completely false .

And the Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion so distorts fact that he loses more friends in Manitoba each day . The honourable member also went on to give some what he thought was very constructive advice to government. And you know I must congratulate him for the effort because after all I think that's what a good opposition leader should do . And what did he refer to ?

Well he referred to the statistics that are contained in the Barber Commis sion Report, and like many other was concerned with the growing incidence of persons who are in receipt of assist ance who otherwise might be supported by their spouseo He referred of course, and I want to read from Hansard , Mr . Speaker , on page 46 , February 26th, and he says; "Forty percent of all welfare payments go for mothers' allowances . That means that almost one-third of all welfare payments go to support children whose fathers are living.

It is easier for government to pay welfare than it is� nforce maintenance orders is sued by the courts against these men ." That's his statement, Mr, Speaker 0 "So a man can desert his family and his responsibility knowing that his wife will be on Mothers' Allowanceo He will not usually have to pay either maintenance or separation allowance. There's a solution to this, Mr . Speaker." Now here is the great, here is the great constructive solution that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has brought forward . "Let the government help those women get what they have a right to from their own spouse s.

If a support order is given, have the government enforce the order. So this will permit these women, " and he goes on and on and on. Well, Mr . Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has come up with what he thinks is a very new provocative, decisive , constructi ve , suggestion . But you know I wish that he had come up with something new and helpful and constructive . But what are the facts, Mr . Speaker ?

The fact is that the Honourable Member , the Honourable Leader of the Opposition was a member , was a member of an administration that introduced a system for the enforcement of maintenance orders, and apparently his concerns were so fleeting, or so indifferent, that he wasn't even aware of what his own administration, when he was then a Minister of the Government of Manitoba, had done in connection with the enforcement of maintenance orders, because enforcement of maintenance orders is not a new program . It was first initiated in June 29th, 1968 so the Honourable

March �, 1973 199 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR . MAC KLING Cont'd) .... Leader of the Opposition is still running to catch up with some thing that he should have known about a long time ago . During the course of this adminstration, we have substantially increased the sector of enforcement of these orders. And if the honour able member had even been listening at the last ses sion of the Legislature he would have re called articulation of our concern and the increase in our Estimates to reflect this concern by the employment of further people for the enforcem ent of these orders.

Even still, if he hadn't been present when those reports were given, he might have reflected on the fact that another innovation was introduced at the last session when we enlarged the enforcement of maintenance orders. Beyond the maintenance orders of the Family Court alone but pro vided the instrumentality of the enforcement proce edings for Maintenance Orders of the Court of Queen's Bench .

Now the honourable member can be forgiven for having perhaps a lapse of memory but surely, when he has staff available to him to research the causes of the day, he should be able to come forward with more precise information about the state of fact in Manitoba . Surely the honourable member , and I found this as the sole constructive suggestion in his speech, should have had the care and concern to find out what the facts were before making those remarks in this Hou se . But, Mr . Speaker , this is characteristic of the Leader of the Opposition .

It is characterist ic for him to have now a new found concern for the well-being of people in Manitoba, and it sits false with him . Mr . Speak er, however, my most, my most anxious concern is with the dialogue that we have had in this Hou se , the words that we have heard from the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party . This has been an astonishing performance. Mr . Speaker , the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party has indicated by his political posturing an ability to say whatever is convenient at the moment and I think, Mr .

Speaker, it ill behooves the Liberal Party to permit its Leader to continue the loose talk in which he engages . For example, Mr . Speaker , in his anxiety, in his anxiety to indicate that he is somehow, somehow the leader of a very vital and progres sive force in Western Canada to provide a greater measure of equity to western Canadians , he uses such terms as the need to secure a peac eful solution to the problem. Now, Mr.

Speaker , is the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party implying that there may be a need for the western provinces to arm and to confront our brothers and sisters in eastern Canada with weapons . Is that the import of his messa ge ? Surely not . Well then, Mr . Speaker , if he is not concerned then he should be concerned to use language which more befits a member of this Legislature who is rational in his concerns for the development of the Canadian economy . He talks, Mr . Speaker, about moments; he said that there is a moment of truth at the present time in history o Mr .

Speaker, the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party happens to be fascinated with moments of truth. I, Mr . Speak er, and I hope other members of this Chamber, are not fascinated with moments of truth but have a concern for the continuing articulation of a fair and frank and honest manner of all of the problems of our people in this province.

The Honourable Member went on at some length but really I do want to indicate a matter of some vital conc ern in respect to some of the loose and idle talk that the Leader of the Liberal Party made in respect to an area, a very anxious concern for myself, not only as a concerned Manitoban but certainly one charged with the responsibility for consumers' interests.

Our sister province of Alberta in its determination to rec eive a fair return on its resources on natural gas , has in some rec ent months announced a new policy with regard to pricing of that dwindling natural resourc e, both within its borders and beyond . In essence the rnlicy announced by Premier Lougheed last November is this: the cost per 1, 000 cubic feet of natural gas at the wellhead will go up by a minimum of 10 cents above the average price of 16 cents per 1, OOO cubic feet.

Within Alberta, resi dential, commercial , and industrial users of natural gas will be protected from the price increase by a rebate system . It is the hope of the Government of Alberta that its two-price natural gas policy will have a variety of effects : First, it is expected to increase significantly Alberta's direct revenues from natural gas . Second, it is expected to lead to increased exploration and development of new resources within the province and thereby lead to new direct and indirect revenues, to new jobs and new industry .

200 March 2, 1973 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR . MACKLING Cont'd ) ... Third, by forcing Ontario , Canada 's major industrial province, to pay full value for the fuel it receives from Alberta. It is expected that Alberta's economy will be more compet itive with that of Ontario and help create a stable manufacturing base for Alberta 's economy and free it from dependence on primary resource extraction as the basis of its economy .

Now these are all laudable aids and as a sister western province, Manitoba has a sincere interest in seeing the economic strength of Western Canada grow -- indeed, .two well known members of the Liberal Party, the Member for Wolseley and the Honourable Minister of Defense in Ottawa, James Richardson, have heartily and unquestionably supported Alberta's two-price plan. Acc ording to his statements to the news media Mr . Richardson, the Honourable James Richardson, feels that anything which cuts down Ea stern Canada's economic dominance and transfers that dominance westward is fine with him .

The Leader of the Liberal Party added in Manitoba, added the proviso that Alberta should exempt its sister western provinces and soak the east alone . The positions of both of these eminent Liberal colleagues become more interesting in the light of some further facts . First, we may say that no one, not even Ontario, disputes that natural gas prices are below their real field value and should increase; beyond that initial agreement, however , it is another story entirely.

The Member for Wolseley, that is the Leader of the Liberal Party in Manitoba at the present time, and the Minister of Defense in Ottawa may be interested in some of the effects of the new policy within Manitoba, the province which they both repres ent. Surely their intense interest in the welfare of Alberta leaves them some room for consideration of the welfare of the people they represent directly. The facts are these: Manitoba buys all of its natural gas from Alberta.

In the twelve months ending in October 1972 , we used 58 billion cubic feet of natural gas , which at the wellhead in Alberta was worth 9. 3 million dollars. In Manitoba, this gas cost the residential consumer an average of 90 cents per thousand cubic feet ; the commercial user paid an average of 68 cents; and industrial users paid 32 cents . If the price goes up to double the wellhead cost , as Premier Lougheed has suggested it might, to 32 cents per 1, 000 cubic feet, Manitoba's supply of gas will cost 18.6 million at the well head .

In Manitoba, natural gas would then cost the average residential consumer in Winni peg 18 percent more than it does now, or $2 8. 00 more a year . Commercial and industrial rates would rise more sharply with an average increase of 25 percent , and large industrial users presently on favourable interruptible rates would face increases of 80 percent . Even if Premier Lougheed introduces only his minimum increase of 10 cents per thousand cubic feet at the wellhead, home owners in Winnipeg will pay $17 . 50 more per year for their gas .

The Manitoba Public Utilities Board has no choice but approve applications for increases. Manitoba 's gas distribution companies buy their gas from Trans Canada Pipelines Limited, who buy their gas from the producers . The prices charged by Trans Canada Pipelines Limited are set by the National Energy Board; the increased cost to distributors would mean a severe drop in their allowable rate of return and in order to show a profit at all , the price increase would have to be passed on to the consumer .

I can assure honourable members of the House that the remarks of the Honourable Member for Crescentwood about the ability of industry to pass on the cost to the consumers is a very effective one . It should be obvious then even to our distinguished Liberal colleagues, that the policy they so strenuously advocate would be a severe blow to Manitoba, the province they ostensibly represent.

The Member for Wolseley will object that he wishes Manitoba exempted -- and I will deal with that in a moment -- but first, let us look at what this severe disruption of the economies of Manitoba and Saskatchewan accomplishes for Alb�rta under the present plan. The Alberta Energy Resourc es Conservation Board in its report on natural gas field prices on which the policy is based notes that ·a ten cent increase will result in additional revenues of $1 50 million. Well, where does this money go ?

Of that entire vast an.T1ual sum, the province of Alberta will get only $22 million through royalties and its share of corporate income taxes . The main figure was $1 50 million; a full $110 million of increased profit will go to the Natural Gas Producers , the International Oil and Gas Companies of America . The Federal government will receive $1 3 million more in corporate taxes and 5 million will go to private owners of mineral rights by way of their share in royalties . Even by Alberta's

March 2, 1973 201 THRONE SP EECH DEBATE (MR . MACKLING Cont'd) ... figures most of the $1 10 million that goes to the Oil Companies will leave the provinc e for investment in explorations and development in the frontier areas of Alaska, Mackenzie Delta and the Far Arctic , as well as out of the country entirely -- God knows where ! The Member for Wolse ley and the Honourable Minister of Defence, good Manitobans both , seem to have no qualms about creating hardships in Manitoba for the primary benefit of the International Oil Companies . As far as they are concerned , it's a wonderful idea .

As to the exemptions for Manitoba and Saskatchewan, Alberta has no power to set pric es; it can only refuse to grant a removal application if it is below what the Government of Alberta considers fair value . In addition, there is no practical way to determine the destination of the gas -- that is whether it will be used in Saskatchewan, Manitoba or Ontario. How then, could Alberta provide an exemption to other provinc es and still maintain higher prices in Ontario as the Member for Wolseley suggests . The idea is nonsensical .

In fact Premier Lougheed has pressed repeatedly that no conc ess ions would be allowed, although in fairness he has indicated he is willing to discuss this matter with sister western provinces at the forthcoming Western Economic Council Meeting in March . In their hysterical advocacy of some kind of mythical western supremacy, the Member for Wolseley and the Honourable Minister of Defense have abandoned all logic and analysis and fallen back on the currency of slogans and false cons titutional flags .

As we have seen they have even abandoned the citizens they represent in their headlong rush to pres ent them selves as the saviour s of western Canada . Mr . Speaker, these gentlemen are false Mess iahs . A true western Mes siah would be less concerned with grabbing headlines and would be working behind the scenes, as is the Government of Manitoba, to car efully analyze the true stakes and evolve constructive solutions that would benefit all the western provinces .

A true western Mess iah would further options to the Government of Alberta that would acc omplish their aims and at the same time be beneficial to Saskatchewan and Alberta; options such as direct increases in royalty rates on natural gas, so that Alberta citizens are the real recipients of the new wealth rather than multi-national corporatio ns ; options such as public participation in res ource industry in Alberta so that Albertans could share directly in the profits produced .

The Member for Wolseley and the Honourable Minister of Defense if they were truly concerned for the welfare of the west would be examining the federal corporate income tax structure in 1970 that allowed oil companies to pay only 12 perc ent of their book profit in corporate taxation, compared to between 32 perc ent and 45 perc ent of book profit paid in corporation taxes by any company other than those involved in resource extraction .

These are the economic facts of life; these are the economic facts of taxation in this country; and the Honourable Member from Wolseley who is such , in his words, such a renowned tax expert ought to be given concern to the tremendous disparity in fair and reasonable taxation in this country . The structure, the federal tax law, appears to be one of the factors that has forced Alberta to. adopt a policy that discriminates against its neighbours in order to gain a fair share of returns on its resources .

Natural resource tax law and the multi-national corporations involved in resources industries are the true targets for anyone aspiring to be a Mes siah for the west and not the consumers of Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario, and as long as the Member for Wolseley and the Honourable Minister of Defense continue in their present false heroics the citizens of these provinces will know full well that they have no friends in the Liberal Party. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR . J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur) : Mr .

Speaker, I rise to take a few moments , a few minutes, to make a short contribution to the debate on the Speech from the Throne and before I proc eed, Mr . Speaker, I must say that it's interesting to note that the government on the backbenches on the government side of the House have very little interest in the Throne Speech that they prepared and delivered through the Lieutenant-Governor . It is interesting to note this morning the lack of occupant s in the front bench ; I see we have the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources here; I' m glad to see him in his seat .

However, the apparent lack of interest does not only lie on the side of the government but indeed with the Opposition and with the people of the Province of Manitoba. Mr . Speaker, I would like to join with those who have expressed regret at the loss of

202 March 2, 1973 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR . WATT Cont'd) •.• a member of this Legislature whom we all respected, not only for his contribution as a member representing not only Thompson but at one time the total northern part of the Province of Manitoba, for his ability to express his opinions, and to bring the position and the problems of the people of that area before the Hou se .

He was not of course , without a sense of humour -- many of the barbs that he tossed across the House to the opposition at that time and to the Conservative Party when he moved into a position of an Independent, were not without humour , and by the same token he was capable of acc epting such barbs and humour that was tossed back to him . I think that Gordon Beard would not think that I was remiss if I mentioned one particular incident that did occur in this House some years ago .

There are a few here that will recall Gordon Beard was not only big in mind but he was in physical stature, and I recall the afternoon, Mr . Speaker, when suddenly with a crash, when he sat over on that side of the House , his seat went down. A MEMBER: Twice . MR . WA TT: Twice. There was a silence in the House as the service came in and carried the chair out and Gordon Beard was forced to sit on the platform behind. It was not long until a division took place in the House and when Mr . Beard stood up to take his position and be counted he was challenged by the Opposition because he was not rising from his seat.

It was in humour of course and Gordon took it in humour . That was the type of person that he was , Mr . Speaker, and it is with regret that we enter into this Session without Gordon Beard here with his usual sensible contributions . First, Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate you on your apparent good health and to wish you well as you continue to direct the proce edings in this House with your usual unbiased and open mind , and I am· sure that you and I, Mr . Speaker, will continue to practice mutual understanding, especially during the question period .

In a few days -- and I say the few days that remain in this Session -- to the mover and the seconder I offer my sincere congratulations . Mr. Speaker, not particularly because of what they have said but surely because of the courage and the self-discipline that it must have taken to endorse a document that contains so little comfort to themselves, to those of us on this side of the House , or indeed to the people of the Province of Manitoba . I may have some further comments to make in regards to the address of the Member for Flin Flon but in the meantime I wish to make a few remarks, Mr .

Speaker, through you to the government and to the people of Manitoba . The Throne Speech was consp icious in its absence of farm agricultural policy but pointing out of course and taking cr edit for the present buoyant economy of the industry, leading of course to the strengthening of all other relative industries in the province and cons equently to the general bright outlook of the total population of our province .

The speech, of course , conveniently did not make mention of the fact that the sudden strengthening of our economy had, or has little or nothing to do with the programs or the efforts of this government but rather came as a result of the misfortunes of people in other parts of the world.

The Throne Speech of course makes mention to the development and expansion of the veterinary services throughout the provinc e, a program prepared and ready for presentation to the people even to the procuring of the physical structures for the various locations , the locations being laid out in their places throughout the provinc e. I'm sorry the Minister of Agriculture is not in his seat but I must say that in all fairness to him I must congratulate the Minister in carrying out this program instigated and left for his consideration by the Conservative Government in 1969 .

The Conservative Government prepared a plan endorsed by myself personally to decentralize agricultural services to the province. That plan was in the progress of organization as the Minister is well aware. Four years later the plan left for the consider ation of the present Minister now appears in the Throne Speech as NDP policy . It is interesting to note in this regard, Mr .

Speaker, that in the interval the government of the day has seen fit to decentralize the veterinary services by building the central veterinary service complex at the University of Manitoba, not in Brandon or in Souri s, not in Virden or in Dauphin, or elsewhere, but in Winn ipeg. The Throne Speech of course makes mention to further expansion of crop insurance . A plan established by the Conservative Government A MEMBER ; Hear , hear .

March 2, 1973 203 THRONE SPEE CH DEBATE MR . WATT: ... and put int o effect, into actual practice in three test areas in the year of 196 1. The first in Canada and based on sound reasoning to accommodate full development and coverage of all crops and to eventually result in reduced rates . Again I' m sorry that the Minister is not in his seat, that I must congratulate , so that I may congratulate the Minister in his effort to carry out in full the plans laid before him by the former Con servative Government . A MEMBE R: Hear, hear . MR .

WATT: The Throne Speech makes reference to the Conservative Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation incorporated under the direction of the former Minister, the Honourable George Hutton, and established on a sound financial basis to expand - (Interjection) -- My honourable friend says he's a socialist . -- (Interjection) -- I would like to sit down and tell my honourable friend that I' ll have a few remarks about the honourable member later in my speech and to inform him that he is in India now, that he is fighting pos sibly a losing battle with the soci alists to try to upgrade the agriculture in that particular country .

MR . SHERMAN: ... battle he's fighting with the Indians . MR . WATT: No, that is not official . I was referring before the interruption to the program instigated by the Honourable George Hutton established on a sound basis for expansion and was totally responsible for bringing the F ACC , that is the Federal Agricultural Credit Corporation, in line with more realistic assi stance to agricultural communities , with even lower interest rates than at that time were provided by the Manitoba MACC .

Again I congratulate the Minister for using his Conservative instrument for further assi stance increasing livestock and generally increasing the agricultural production . The speech of course makes mention of the government policies and programs of their own but no definite outline of what they will be . Up to this time, after four years the Minister has come forward with no long-term program, not one to compare with those that I have mentioned. In fact not one. Period ! However -- (Interjection) -- the Minister says he will, and I submit, Mr .

Speaker, that it is difficult to equate the increase in the new positions within the Department of Agriculture with no apparent result that may be readily recognized by the agricultural community . Mr . Speaker, the development of water cons ervat ion and control as it applies to the southwest Manitoba came to a complete standstill in 1969 . Construction of the Patterson Dam which was top priority at that time, and endorsed by the Federal Government on a cost sharing basis, is as far as I know shelved. It is shel ved, Mr .

Speaker, along with proposals by way of resolution from the municipalities involved to construct several other smaller stock watering dams . These programs as of 1969 have been shelved . Further no move has been made to control the water level in the area involving hay and marshlands supporting something like 25, OOO head of cattle from the Oak Lake Dam southeast to the Souris River . Mr . Speaker, the roadbuilding program as outlined in 19 69, the highway program , under the direction of the Honourable Stewart McLean, has to a great extent been abandoned in favour of the highway construction in the north .

Although it may be noted that hard sur facing of the road to La Salle was promptly completed .•. A MEMBER: Received priority . MR . WATT : Received priority . Thank you .

In spite of the Minister 's answer -- and I'm referring to the Minister of Highways -- in spite of the Minister 's answer to me in the House Wednesday it is perfectly evident to those who have to travel provincial roads that in the past years these roads have deteriorated to the point where municipalities have expressed concern by way of resolution because of their ever-increasing traffic on municipal roads which neces sarily brings further financial encumbrance on the municipalities within our province. Mr .

Speaker, through the Throne Speech, and from members on this side of the House, credit has been given to the welfare programs in the Throne Speech . Credit which I can in part agree with. But here it is interesting to note that the government has at least in part departed from the ability-to-pay, and I refer, particularly in the rural areas, to farmers who are now past the age of 65 and are rec eiving free Medicare cards. Some of these farmers, or many of them, sold their land at high prices to the young farmers who are

204 March 2, 1973 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR , WATT Cont'd) •.• struggling today to make their payments and to make ends meet out on the farm, and who are required at the same time to pay for the medical care of those who have retired, and some of them, or many of them, I submit are retired in a position that they may very well be able to look after themselves. Mr .

Speaker, during the past 14 years that I have sat in the Legislative As sembly I have listened on numerous occasions to the socialists making reference to and quoting one of the world's greatest statesmen , politician and Conservative , and it came with no surprise when the Member for Flin Flon concluded his remarks by quoting Sir Winston Churchill. And I quote the Member who quoted Sir Winston when he said: "Give us the tools and let's let us get on with the job." Let us get on with the job. Give us the tools, Mr. Speaker, and let us get on with the job. He is perfectly right, Mr. Speaker.

Sir Winston did make this statement. I heard him . -- (Interjection) -- The member says, well get on with the job. But anyway Sir Winston Churchill -- it is perfectly right that he made that statement . I heard him , Mr . Speaker, and for those who did not hear him it's in the book . And it must be pointed out that when Sir Winston Churchill made that plea he had his back to the wall facing the hordes of Nazi socialists who threatened to destroy freedom and liberty throughout the world.

Today the Manitoba socialists facing the people and an election with their backs to the wall cry out through the Member for Flin Flon, give us the tools, give us the tools, Mr . Speaker. A MEMBER: Never . MR . WATT: My God, Mr . Speaker, there are no tools left in this province that are not already on the payroll. There are tools right over there, 26 of them , 26 of them , hammers and hatchets .•. A MEMBER: And sickles . MR . WATT: Chisels and monkeywrenches, punches and screwdrivers , punches and screwdrivers, Mr . Speaker.

I have listened to my honourable friend the tripe-loaded little member for Transcona, the Minister of Labour , when he got up in the House and made his contribution to the Throne Speech and you know up to that point I believed that maybe he was one of the big punches over there amongst those tools . After his speech , Mr. Speaker , I had no alternative but to put him down to the level of the lowly little sc rewdriver . But tools they've got. Hundreds of them, Mr .

Speaker, hundreds of them; 83 more in the Department of Agriculture as to the report which we received on our our desks yesterday, A MEMBE R: Six hundred new civil servants this y ear. MR . WATT : Six hundred. Eighty-three of them in the Department of Agriculture. Tools they've got, hundreds of them, hundreds of them; cluttering up boards and commissions , cluttering up the civil service. The civil service who were once chosen on merit, and on experience, and on apparent desire to serve, and those who have not been discharged, or have resigned, find themselves bogged down in propaganda and socialist garbage.

My Leader the Honourable Member for River Heights has made reference to this degrading pitronage, as he terms it; patronage, Mr. Speaker, patronage ? I say it is insidious diabolical perverted nepotism . --( Interjection)-- Go home and look it up in your dictionary . I know you wouldn't understand --you wouldn't understand what it means if I did explain it to you . --( Interjection)- Then I '11 go back to my Leader and say patronage . But it goes further than patronage . Have you ever heard of an insensitive thick skilled -- thick skinned rhinocerous ? A MEMBER : I' ve seen one or two. MR .

WATT: I can see them right over there . Mr. Speaker, the government has constantly claimed to fairly represent all of the people of Manitoba and I heard the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources say it in the House the day before yesterday, the day before yesterday. Mr .

Speaker , a few weeks ago I stood under the great dome of the Taj Mahal at Agra, India, where the great Mogul Emperor looking over the beautiful gardens where his 40 wives and a thousand concubines bathed in great pools and basked in the sun and the flowers -- (Interjection)-- Will the little screwdriver just hold off for a moment until I've finished my speech . Where they bathed in the great pools and basked in the sun amidst the flowers and the shrubs and it was here that he promised to be fair and to treat them all equally, a thousand concubines and four wives. Mr .

Speaker, --( Interjection) -- Ask the screwdriver over there. A MEMBER: That's why you were there. MR . WA TT: I' ll come to that in a minute . Mr . Speaker, there was then as now 365 days in the year . However, Mr. Speaker, leap year coming once in four as it did then, as it does

March 2. 1973 205 THRONE SPEE CH DEBATE (MR . WATT cont'd) .•.•. now, the Emperor had time to stop and to set up his program . But what he did not tell his 1, OOO concubines and four wives, what he did not tell them, that below him was a bunker with a shaft leading to the Y ... . River which filled with water in the monsoon season and provided sewage disposal for those who complained, or did not fit in to his random program . -- (Interjection)-- No questions at the moment . Mr.

Speaker , India where I rec ently visited with the senior agricultural advisor to United Nations food and agriculture, a former Manitoban, the Minister of Agriculture for the Province of Manitoba the Honourable George Hutton . And I should say here that it is a tribute not only to George Hutton but to the Province of Manitoba to have a person of his calibre recognized by the United Nations to put him in full control of agricultural projects, (Hear , hear) where from there he is being moved as Assistant Director to World Food Organization, As sistant 'Director in Rome . Mr .

Speaker, I travelled approximately 4, OOO miles in India, where I met progressive farmers who were few and far between . I met directors of F AO project through George Hutton; through George Hutton I met the Minister of Agriculture for India . I met civil servants and I met labourers , and through my own observations concluded beyond a shadow of a doubt that India, ruled by a socialist government is receding rapidly into a state of chaos. The level of economy is at its lowest ebb since the British were through 25 years ago .

The fertility of the soil is as fantastic as the complete chaos within the ranks of the government. Thus , one million acres of the most productive soil and climate produce little or nothing because of lack of organization and finance. Finance, because of the failure of a socialist government to recognize the tremendous agricultural potential at their disposal . Mr .

Speaker, in closing my speech and as we approach an election, in spite of the lack of progress of programs, in spite of the constant misca rriage of justice, in spite of unfulfilled promi ses, I must warn member in opposition , I must warn the Leader of the Liberal Party and I must warn his backbenchers , and I must warn the Social Credit member who is not in his seat today, and I must warn my Leader, and I must warn the Members of the Conservative Party around me , that in spite of the failure of this government, and in spite of the optimism of both my Leader and even the Leader of the Liberal Party that the socialists still have one. thing going for them in this province, one thing, flimsy though it may be, Mr.

Speaker, they have one thing going for them and that is that the people of this province still have the absolute right, the absolute right, Mr . Speaker, to continue to be misgoverned. Thank you . . . . . • continued on next page.

206 March 2, 1973 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose . MR . PETER ADAM (Ste. Rose): Thank you very much , Mr . Speak er . MR . SPEAKER: Order , ple ase . The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party may ask a question. MR . ASPER: Mr .

Speaker, I wonder if the honourable member would tell us whether the Emperor to which he referred in his speech was the same Emperor who with a thousand concubines Who on his son's 21st birthday gave his son 500 of those concubines and said to his son as the son stood looking at the 500 concubines, "what's the matter son?" and .the son said, "well Dad, I know what to do , I just don't know where to start . " MR . SPEAKER: Order, please . The question was more of an answer than a question.

I would like to indicate that in the future for the edification of the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party as I have explained before, questions should be to elicit information in regards to the speech that was inade not to start a further debate. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR . ADAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker , I should first begin by congratu lating you, Sir, again on the honour, the high office of presiding over the proceedings in this Chamber, and I would also like to indicate that I detect that you have the situation well in hand.

You have started early in the session to keep us unruly people under controi and I hope that it will continue to be this way and I would advise you, Sir, not to hesitate to call us to .order should we get out of line . I'd like to congratulate my colleague the Member for Flin Flon on the manner in which he presented the motion on the Throne Speech . My colleague the Member for Flin Flon has an ability to deliver what he has to say in a down to earth fashion with emotion and he presents his case in the same manner that he has lived his life.

I would also congratulate the Honourable Member for Radisson for seconding the motion by the Member for Flin Flon. I would also at this time , Mr. Speaker, like to offer also my condolences to the family of the late Member for Churchill , the late Honourable Gordon Beard. T!;ie Member from Churchill was a member that I held in very high respect. He was a _person who seldom got up except te logically present his case for the people of his constituency. He never got up to try and get into the press or tu.grab headlines.

I am sure he will be Il!issed by all of his constituents and when I look towards the Ghair that is now vacant I look at it with sadness. Mr. Speaker, this is actually the first time that I have had the honour of taking

part in a Throne Speech debate. You will recall that I was elected in 1971 and during the eight days allocated for debate of the Throne Speech I was sitting up in the Gallery, and for the first three days I was in the illustrious company of the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. Last year I had the honour that was bestowed upon the Member for Radisson, I was the seconder of the Speech from the Throne, so this year was actually the first time that I have an opportunity to debate the Throne Speech . I detect, Mr. Speaker, that the Opposition is quite perplexed .

They are non-plussed , The Speech from the Throne was not one that they expected. They were expecting a pre election Throne Speech that would be blatant with goodies and carrots dangling before an electorate; and this has left them quite perplexed . They find themselves obliged to stand up one after another and support if not all at least support in part many of the proposals that have been presented. It's quite a predicament, Mr . Speaker, to find that they have to do this because for not to support this Throne Speech would be to admit that one belongs to a fraternity of finks.

So if at least they are supporting part of the Throne Speech well at least they're only half finks. Mr . Speaker, I know that it's quite difficult for them. There's a rumour that there will be an election possibly this year and they are desperately trying to find a cause . I don't blame them for that. But to find themselves in a predicament where they have to stand up and endorse many of the proposals in the Throne Speech is certainly not very comforting for them I presume, and they are forced -- down home we call it "eating crow" . Eating crow .

I think the illustrious Leader of the Liberal Party was chastised by my colleague here for attacking the Minister of Mines and the First Minister and he also chastised the Leader of the Conservative Party, he advised them that they should desist from attacking these two gentlemen because any one of them could take on the whole lot of them together• I think, Mr . Speak er, that was good advice . I think that we backbenchers here are

March 2, 1973 207 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR . ADAM Cont'd) .... sitting a little higher than the two front rows and we don't perhaps get up as often to speak as the front bench but we do have time to analyze each different speaker and watch this firing going on between the different leaders . And I would say that I would concur with the Honourable Member for Osborne when he advises the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party that he doesn't play in the same ball park. He is in the peewee league; perhaps the weewee league. -- (Interjection) -- I guess perhaps we all have to go weewee once in a while.

This great emancipator from River Heights, the Leader of the Liberal Party, last year hurriedly took a trip up north, the great emancipator , a man concerned with the conditions of the Indian people in the north . He went up north to take a look at the working conditions of Indians who -- had taken a contract to open a line for Hydro . Who does he think he's kidding ? What a farce ! What a farce ! A wealthy lawyer from River Heights . Where was he in the 60s ? I suggest that he was comfortably domiciled in his home in River Heights. There was some people in my constituency , Mr .

Speaker , in the 60s that had to live all winter in a tent with a little hot tin heater coming out the side of the tent . Where was the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party then ? He was not around . So I suggest that maybe he should take the advice of my colleague the Member for Osborne and perhaps pick on the backbenchers and not the front benches . Because perhaps we are more in his league . We may be in the peewee league . But I would remind him that in 19 71 in the Ste .

Rose constituency we were able to take him on and his backbenchers as well and in addition to that we took on such stalwarts as the former member for St . George and the former member for Ste . Rose and also the Free Pre ss. And they were badly trounced in Ste . Rose and while we were doing that we also trounced the Free Press . Mr . Speaker, as I mentioned the Speech from the Throne was not one that they expected. It is a Throne Speech that could be presented in any sess ion; could have been presented in 1969, 1970, 71 and 72 .

It indicates that it's pres ented by a government that is busy discharging the responsibility to the people of this province" Many of the proposals are designed to relieve the pressure, cost of living on our senior citizens and our lower income groups . It's little wonder that members on the opposite side have to stand up and support these measure s. Even though they are reluctant to do so , these measures I think will be of benefit to all Manitobans . There are many proposals that are humanitarian . The re's something for everyone , Mr . Speaker.

It indicates that this government truly believes in social democracy . For instance I am sure that the senior citizens of this province will be very pleased that the premiums on Medicare are going to be abandoned for over the age of 65 . They will also welcome the introduction of pharma-care to reduce the cost at least in part of the drugs that they have to purchase. The Medicare premium alone the remov.al of which will save $49 . 80 for a single person and $99 . 60 for married coup les , for our senior citizens .

The saving of 80 percent on drugs on purchases over $50 for single persons and $1 00 for married couples over 65 . Mr. Speaker, a good majority of our senior citizens will no longer be paying any education property tax with the already announced Manitoba Education Property Tax Credit Plan. These measures along with senior citizens home renovating grants will go a long way in making life more pleasant and more bearable for these pioneers who have opened up our province. I believe the announcement that the Foundation grant will be increased from 75 to 80 percent will also be most welcome.

And certainly one aspect that receives my approval is the reference to additional funds being made available to supplement the foundation programs in school divisions where local tax resources are limited and in order to provide equal access to educational opportunities for the people of this provinc e and our students, and there will also be increased grants on a per pupil base . This will also help in alleviating the burden of taxation on the municipalities . Another proposal that I find very exciting, Mr .

Speaker, is the increase in the Unconditional Grants and the establishment of a special municipal loan and general emergency fund. Assistance to small communities to meeting the cost of police service is long overdue . This will be most welcome and it will affect four communities in my constituency . In the constituency of Ste . Rose the cost of policing the town is something like $9 , 600 per annum . This year it would increase to over $ll, OOO a year . So some ass istance will certainly be welcome in the communities of Winnipeg osis, Ste . Rose , McCreary and Amaranth .

In the field of housing, Mr " Speaker, the record of the previous administration is to

208 March 2 , 1973 THRONE SPEE CH DEBATE (MR . ADAM Cont'

d) say the least shameful and an insult to the rural people of this province. Mr. Speaker , since my election in 1961 we have had a 14 unit apartment - (Interjection) -- '71 . A MEMBER: 161 is good . MR . ADAM: •.• a 14 unit senior citizens home was constructed in Ste . Rose . The need was so great, Mr . Speaker, that this year a further 16 unit extension is now under constructi on. A MEMBER: Hear, Hear, Hear ! MR •. ADAM: It will be a total of 30 units when this is completed .

A 10 unit senior citizens home is to be constructed at McCreary this spring, and a 10 unit senior citizens home is also scheduled for Winnipego sis . In addition to this there will also be 10 low rental housing units for Winnipe gosis . And while I' m speaking about the low rental housing units at Winni pegosis , I would like to -- I didn't quite get the implication that the Member for Gladstone was referring to when he said low-cost housing . I don't know what that is . I don't know what low-cost housing is , I know of low -rental housing .

Similar units have been constructed in several areas in my constituency since 1969 in such places as Mallard; there are seven units there, already occupied by people who once lived in inud shacks with dirt roofs and so on . There are five that have been constructed at Crane River also another area that prior to 1969 was a very depressed community . There have been such low-rental housings , remote housings built at Amaranth and in other areas and more are scheduled for 1973 . But what was the record of the previous administration, Mr . Speaker? What was the record for the ten years that they held office ?

Not one, not one unit; not one, not one - (Interjection) -- not one in my constituency, not one . High ris es, yes; lots of them, lots of high rises in Winnipeg. Not one in my constituency . Mr . Speaker, an insult, an insult to human dignity . A MEMBER: Shame, Mr . Speaker. MR . ADAM: There has been a great change, Mr . Speaker , since 1969 for the better of the human condition in my constituency . The transfer of some areas to the Northern Affairs has been a great benefit to those people.

It has given the people of places like Mallard, Waterhen , Meadow Portage, Crane River , a sense of duty -- it has given them a voice in the affairs that affect their community . Mr . Speaker, if the rabble will die down from the Lakeside -- if the wind blows down perhaps I could carry on . Mr . Speaker, the Member for Lakeside was chastisi ng the Leader of the Liberal Party for trying to find a cause to go into the election . I suggest to him that he has no cause either and he better start looking. A MEMBER: Hear, hear, hear . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please, order ! MR . ADAM: Mr .

Speaker, the transfer of some of these communities to Northern Affairs •.• MR . SPEAKER : Order ! MR . ADAM: . • • has given these people something to look forward to . They are now in control of their own destinies, they are able to have local community centers, recreation facilities· which was not available to them before . Communities like Mallard now has a community hall, has a recreation park, has water, good water . Mr. Speaker, 80 percent of the young people who come to the Ste . Rose hospital have diarrohea because of drinking impure water .

We are going full speed ahead in providing pure water for the people in these remote areas . We call this participatory democracy and I think that I would like at this time to compliment the Minister of Northern Affairs on the way he's handling his department, and I congratulate him for what he is doing in the Northern part of this province. Things are changing, Mr. Speaker, A MEMBER: For better. MR . ADAM: For the better and things are changing in the north .

It is not so long ago, I believe last September when this government, the mem bers on this side of the House paid their own way to go down to Churchill to get a firs thand look at what was happening in the north. People were surprised, they had never seen this before, that the entire government caucus was going out to see firsthand for themselves at their own expense, headed by the

March 2, 1973 209 THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (MR . ADAM Cont'd) .••• Premier . Mr . Speaker, at The Pas we stopped at several commun ities and we were met by the people who came out to see us and at The pas , a leading Liberal made a press release to the effect that he didn't know how the NDP's were doing it, but they were changing the north, and that he intended to support the New Democratic Party. He was the same person that organized that crusade for that great emancipator from Wol seley to go down and look at the horrible conditions that the Indians were living under .

The great emancipator , the grand potentate of the Liberal Party . Projects like the Manitoba Work Activities Project has completely changed conditions in areas like Mallard, Crane River, Camperville, Duck Bay, Pelican Rapids . In Crane River there are 27 families who are now gainfully employed at meaningful work and earning and learning meaningful trades which Will allow them to go out and be self-supporting and be productive in our society . -- (Interjection) -- Well we call it MANW AU, a very good program .

We are also now introducing a similar program sponsored by the Department of Health, the Department of Agriculture that we call the Amaranth Work Activities Project . It is another very depressed area, and this will provide meaningful training and occupation for 30-50 people who would otherwise perhaps be on social assistance . It's not going to cost us hardly anything because of that fact -- those who will be trained will be able to become gainfully employed citizens . Yes, yes, it's new innovations, we are trying different programs to meet the needs of the people in this provinc e.

Where were the innovations before 1969 ? They were non existent, they were non-existent. I think that the Throne Speech also contains , contrary to what the Member for Arthur has expounded, I think there are many things in the Throne Speech that will be of help to the farming community which is predominantly the economy of my constituency . The land reforms, land-leasing arrangements I think will assis t young farmers, enabling young farmers to get into farming and maybe even enable the Honourable Member for Lakeside to increase his holdings .

I believe that support for expansion of the livestock industry is also very welcome - increased incentive grants for expansion of beef cattle and sheep . Programs for finishing of beef rather than exporting them to the United States along with the jobs I think will be good for this province. And, Mr . Speaker , on January 27th something happened that has never happened in this province ••• A MEMBE R: What year ? MR . ADAM: 1973'. A MEMBER: We ll you didn't say it . MR . ADAM: A new co -operative feed lot was opened at Crane River, Manitoba. A MEMBER : Hear, hear . MR .

ADAM: They were assisted through the Department of Co -operative Development. I was fortunate to help officiate at that offical opening and, Mr . Speaker, these people now have 850 head of cattle, there's a population of approximately 150 . These are the things that this government is doing; these are the things that we want the people to know what is happening in this province. Not the kind of things that happened in this House last year , Mr .

Speaker, and on June 22nd when Bill 55 was introduced in this House for third reading, a bill that would transfer $28 million from property tax and I want the people to know, the people of Manitoba, and I certainly will not let the people of my constituency forget that every Conservative on that side of the House got up and voted against that Bill that would transfer up to $1 40 for 66 perc ent of the farmers of this province and $1 00 to transfer up to $1 00 for another 30 percent of the farmers of this province. And I want it in the record, Mr .

Speaker , of who voted against this bill: Bilton , Blake, Craik, Einarson, Enns, Ferguson, Graham, Henderson, Johnston (Sturgeon Creek) Jorgenson, McGill, McGregor, McKellar, McKenzie , Sherman, Spivak and Trueman . This is the most infamous days in your life , that was the most infamous day in your life, Sir . I am not going to let the people of my constituency forget that, Sir . A MEMBER: What about the Rustling Bill? MR . AD AM: They voted against the Rustling Bill too ; they voted against the rustling resolution. I can find it for you if you want, Sir, on page 251, look for yourself. MR .

SPEAKER: Order, please . The Honourable Member has five minutes .

210 March 2, 1973 THRONE SPEEC H DEBATE MR . ADAM: Thank you, Mr . Speaker , My only disappointment, I have much more to say, my only disappointment in the Throne Speech -- you didn't think that I had a dis appointment, did you ? -- was that there was no mention of the Port of Churchill. I think, Mr . Speaker, that while it's a federal matter I think that there is much that we can do. I think that we should be promoting the Port of Churchill.

We were advised by resource people who kno� that we could increase the export out of Churchill by at least between 10 to 25 million bushels annually at a saving of approximately fifteen cents to seventeen cents a bushel -- (Interjection) -- Right. Saskatchewan and Manitoba, Sir . Saskatchewan and Manitoba . I submit, Sir , that of all the grain that was shipped to Churchill , the farmers paid the freight on the screenings that went to Churchill and until last year all those screenings were burned at Churchill. But we paid -- the farmers paid the shot . I say that that was terrible.

I think we should look at rail abandonment; I' m not convinc ed that the servo-centres is not a stepping stone to rail abandonment. Why should the CNR continue to use rails to transport goods when they now have to pay for the construction and maintenance of these tracks ? Why shouldn't they go to the highways and let the public pay ? That's what they're after, that's what they want. We're going to have to build better roads, more maintenance to carry the heavy traffic that will be required to transport the grain to inland terminals . Mr . Speaker, my time is running out . I had much more to say.

I wanted to say that we should put more emphasis on the rehabilitation of some of our inland fisheries , such lakes as Lake Winnipe gosis which I think that we should have rearing lakes for the fry where they would be safe all summer and I think that perhaps I' ll have an opportunity to raise this at another point, but in the meantime in closing I want to say that we must, and the people must at all cost keep the government in the hands of the people and not in the hands of the elite . MR . SPEAKER: I recognize the Honourable Member for Morris and I' ll also call it 12 :30 .

The honourable member will be able to continue in the afternoon . I now leave the Chair and return at 2 :30 .

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-5-9
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 5th hansardpdf 9.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	60198bbcd1d0963186709b51b350cc4784facb81

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).