May 2, 1994 Alberta Hansard 1575 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Monday, May 2, 1994 1:30 p.m. Date: 94/05/02 [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: Prayers MR. SPEAKER: Let us pray. O Lord, we give thanks for the bounty of our province: our land, our resources, and our people. We pledge ourselves to act as good stewards on behalf of all Albertans. Amen. head: Presenting Petitions MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Leduc. MR. KIRKLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to table a petition signed by 66 parents from the city of Leduc expressing concern about the reduction of hours in early childhood services. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-West. MR. DALLA-LONGA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to table 232 names on a petition requesting that the Legislative Assembly of Alberta leave the Children's hospital on its current site. MR. BRACKO: Mr. Speaker, I am presenting a petition from 510 residents from St. Albert and surrounding area who urge the government to reconsider the inclusion of the Sturgeon General Hospital within the Edmonton Region and to allow the Sturgeon General Hospital to serve its customers from the city of St.

Albert, the MD of Sturgeon, the Town of Morinville, the Village of Legal, the Alexander Reserve, the Counties of Athabasca, Barrhead, Lac Ste. Anne, Parkland and Westlock. MR. N. TA YLOR: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table a petition with 522 signatures from Legal – that's all of Legal – asking that the Sturgeon general hospital be moved back into the health area encompassing Westlock and Barrhead. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Spruce Grove-Sturgeon- St. Albert. MRS. SOETAERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to present a petition signed by 497 people who ask the government to take the Sturgeon general out of the Edmonton region because it continues to serve the area around, including the Hutterite colony in my area, the Alexander reserve, even parts of Westlock, Lac Ste. Anne, and Barrhead. Thank you. head: Reading and Receiving Petitions MR. SPEAKER: The hon. deputy Leader of the Opposition. MRS. HEWES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. May I request that the petition I presente d on Monday, April 18, from the residents of St. Andrew's Centre regarding seniors' services now be read and received.

CLERK: We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Alberta to urge the Government not to alter the level of support for all benefits for Alberta's seniors until seniors have been consulted and have agreed to any revisions. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands- Beverly. MS HANSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. May I request that the petition I presented on April 13 from senior citizens asking the government not to alter funding arrangements for lodges be now read and received.

CLERK: We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Alberta to urge the Government not to alter funding arrangements for Alberta's Seniors Lodges and Seniors Subsidized Apartments until Seniors have been consulted and have agreed to any revisions to funding arrange- ments. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. MR. HENRY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would ask that the petition I tabled in this Assembly on April 18 regarding seniors' benefits be now read and received.

CLERK: We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Alberta to urge the Government not to alter the level of support for all benefits for Alberta's seniors until seniors have been consulted and have agreed to any revisions. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. MR. SAPERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would ask that the petition which I recently tabled regarding the cutting and funding for early childhood schooling now be read and received.

CLERK: We, the undersigned residents of Alberta, petition the Legislative assembly to continue funding kindergarten at the current level, allowing each and every child in Alberta the opportunity to receive 400 hours of kindergarten instruction. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Fort McMurray. MR. GERMAIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if I might ask the Assembly to have read and received the petition which I tabled on April 12 in this Asse mbly dealing with the matter of seniors' lodges.

CLERK: We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Alberta to urge the Government not to alter funding arrangements for Alberta's Seniors Lodges and Seniors Subsidized Apartments until Seniors have been consulted and have agreed to any revisions to funding arrange- ments. head: Introduction of Bills MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Mountain View. Bill 29 Nova Corporation of Alberta Act Repeal Act MR. HLADY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce a Bill being the Nova Corporation of Alberta Act Repeal Act.

1576 Alberta Hansard May 2, 1994 Mr. Speaker, this Bill provides for the repeal of the Nova Act, the temporary retention of some provisions of that Act for transitional purposes, and the amendment of the Gas Utilities Act. As well, the repeal of this Ac t further shows this government's commitment to getting out of business. [Leave granted; Bill 29 read a first time] MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, I would move that Bill 29 as just introduced be moved onto the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lacombe-Stettler. Bill 31 Municipal Government Act MRS.

GORDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce Bill 31, the Municipal Government Act. This legislation reflects the government's commitment to put more decision-making in the hands of local authorities. It will provide municipalities with greater flexibility to respond to changing conditions now and in the future. Bill 31 has been developed following extensive consultation with municipalities and other stakeholders throughout Alberta. In keeping with the government's initiatives to deregulate, the Municipal Government Act will consolidate 21 Acts and their attendant regulations.

The result is simplified and streamlined legislation written in plain language. Thank you. [Leave granted; Bill 31 read a first time] MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, I move that Bill 31 as just introduced be moved onto the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] head: Tabling Returns and Reports MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Avonmore. MR. ZWOZDESKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table with the Assembly an additional 424 education coupons received from across Alberta.

People here are voicing their concern for the Premier and others from the benches opposite to take educa- tion off their hit list. I'd like to table those now. head: Introduction of Guests MR. KOW ALSKI: Mr. Speaker, I have a number of guests that I'd like to introduce this afternoon to yourself and to all members of the Assembly. First of all, we have four active home schoolers from around the province of Alberta. We have Mr. and Mrs. Dick and Joanne Barendregt from Neerlandia and Dave and Aline Stasiewich from New Sarepta. They're in the members' gallery.

I would ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the House. As well, Mr. Speaker, it's always very significant when young Albertans have an opportunity to meet young people from around the world. The Rotary Club in the province of Alberta is very, very active in sponsoring young people from other countries to visit our province and by the same token to have young people from our province go elsewhere. In the members' gallery today is Aimee Miller from Westlock , who will be leaving on a one- year exchange program sponsored by the Westlock Rotary Club. She'll be going to Australia in July of 1994.

Residing in the province of Alberta but soon to return to her home is Pascaline Renat from central France, who arrived in Alberta in August of 1993. She'll be leaving for her homeland in July of 1994. She was sponsored by the Westlock Rotary Club. We also have Silke Fricke from northern Germany, who arrived in Alberta in August of 1993 on a cultural stay international program. She's been in Alberta and Westlock since that time. She'll be returning to Germany in June of 1994. They're accompanied here today by a representative of the Westlock Rotary Club: Mr.

Les Dunford, who is also associated with a local newspaper in Westlock, the Town & Country . All of these guests are in the members' gallery, and I'd ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of all members of the Assembly. 1:40 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. MS CARLSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's my pleasure to introduce to you and through you to Members of this Legislative Assembly 68 outstanding grade 8 students from Dan Knott junior high school. They are accompanied today by their t eachers Heather Chorley, Mike Dalquist, and Tom Sherwood.

I ask that they all rise and receive the traditional warm welcome of this Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. MR. PASZKOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's certainly my privilege and pleasure to introduce a special visitor from London, England, who has joined us today: Dr. Alex Paszkowski. Dr. Paszkowski has just completed a psychiatric study on those who have been brain damaged due to accidents. I'd ask the House to recognize Dr. Paszkowski. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. deputy Leader of the Opposition. MRS. HEWES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm privileged today to introduce to you and members of the House students from Austin O'Brien high school in Edmonton-Gold Bar. There are 12 students visiting us today. They're accompanied by their teacher Mrs. Marie MacRae and the assistant Mrs. Bruna Kriegel. They're sitting in the public gallery, I understand. I'd ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Mountain View. MR. HLADY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to introduce to you and through you 10 members of the PC youth and PC youth executive.

These are the future leaders of this province. [interjections] Some of them shall be. Their president is Craig Watt. I'd ask them to now rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. MRS. ABDURAHMAN: Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to introduce to you and through you to the Legislative Assembly 12 young Alberta students from grades 6 and 10 from Alberta Bosco Homes. Also they're accompanied by four of their teachers: Marlene Forest-Wallace, Dean Jerace, Victor Bidzinski, and Carrie-Ann Beattie. They ar e seated in the public gallery,

May 2, 1994 Alberta Hansard 1577 and I'd ask them to rise to receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. DR. PERCY: Mr. Speaker, it's a privilege to introduce to you and through you a constituent and parent Adam Parrish, who is concerned about the impact of education cuts on his children. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Leduc. MR. KIRKLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It's my pleasure this afternoon to introduce to you and through you to the Assem- bly two very exuberant and enthusiastic constituents of mine, one from the lovely town of Beaumont by the name of Jacquelyn Feth, the other a constituent from the lovely city of Leduc: Russell Elgert. I would ask that the Assembly give them both a warm welcome this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Sherwood Park. MR. COLLINGWOOD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's my pleasure this afternoon to introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly two of my constituents in Sherwood Park.

This first is Susan McManus, who is an assistant in my constituency office. This afternoon also joining her is Tawa Anderson, who is a youth of my community who has been an honour student and has just returned from his first year of honours political science at Dalhousie University in Halifax. Tawa will be working with me this summer. I'd ask that they rise in the public gallery and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: Ministerial Statements Mental Health Week MRS. McCLELLAN: I rise in the House today to draw the attention of Albertans to the im portance of this week across the country.

May 1 to 7 is Mental Health Week. The slogan this year is "making mental health matter," and matter it does, Mr. Speaker. In this province my department and the Alberta division of the Canadian Mental Health Association are dedicated to working with our partners to help people manage change and maintain their mental health. The benefits will be seen in better overall health for everyone. I speak on behalf of all of our partners when I stress that it is possible and vital to make Albertans aware of what they can do to make mental health matter.

During the week our focus is on giving people some tools that suggest how to keep a positive attitude in the face of adversity. Many individuals are struggling to overcome feelings of insecurity and uncertainty and are seeking help about first steps they can take to regain a feeling of control in their lives. To celebrate the week, Alberta Health and the provincial Canadian Mental Health Association have developed information flyers in the Strike a Balance series. In the flyers individuals are given ideas about how to put life into their work and their leisure time.

The flyers will be distributed through clinics and offices of both organizations. In addition, staff of both organizations are carrying out activities and events that best fit their community needs. Alberta Health's 53 mental health clinics and two extended care centres along with our partners continue to provide valuable mental health services to Albertans. As stated in our three-year business plan, the focus on mental health services will be shifting to more community-based services. This refocusing of resources is supported by most mental health professionals, and I certainly strongly support this move.

In closing, Mr. Speaker, I would like to acknowledge a milestone reached by the Canadian Mental Health Association: 1994 marks the 75th year the association has advocated for services to Canadians who are mentally ill. We are proud to be closely associated with the Alberta division of this agency that offers hope and independence to thousands of people every year. I ask all members of this Assembly to join with me this week in making mental health matter. MR. DECORE: Mr.

Speaker, first I'd like to acknowledge the fact that the association is a national volunteer association, and in fact two members of the Liberal caucus are lifetime members and recognized by that national association. A third member of our caucus has served as chair of the Alberta Hospital. So we feel that there is some bench strength in understanding the issues that affect Albertans particularly with this sad and horrible illness. Mr.

Speaker, I commend the government for its initiative in dealing with the association in sending out the flyers, but our caucus notes with some regret that the concept of community- based planning, a concept that's been known for some 20 years, is slow in getting going in this province. We note that the government seems to be more anxious to move the institutions and close those instituti ons and get those patients into community facilities before the workup has actually been completed. Resources are important.

The whole backup service of getting patients into community settings is important, and we note with regret that the mental health strategic plan that we know has been ready for some four months is not before this Assembly and not before the people of Alberta. So there is speed that we're worried about. There are resources that aren't being properly focused, and the result is that we think patients are not being given the kind of support they need, particularly children.

There is a clear issue here of demand that's not being met, and we urge the government to look at that demand and look after that demand and to properly plan so that transition for community- based health for mental patients is more properly looked after. Thank you, sir. head: Oral Question Period 1:50 North West Trust Company MR. DECORE: Mr. Speaker, Albertans learned last week that a Tory fund-raiser, Mr. Gary Campbell, who is also the chief executive officer of North West Trust, will receive a huge severance package when he leaves North West Trust.

Albertans have also learned as of last Thursday that the Treasurer gave a proxy for 99 percent of the votes of North West Trust to Mr. Campbell to vote as he deemed necessary to look after his own financial terms of departure. In an information circular put out by North West Trust, we now learn that senior officers of North West Trust will be eligible for pension benefits. Mr. Treasurer, will you confirm why a CEO who's only been there for seven years has suddenly become entitled to pension benefits? MR. DINNING: Mr.

Speaker, this matter was brought to my attention some two weeks ago, and upon being aware of it, I wrote to the chairman of North West Trust Company and asked that the board of directors – the board of directors – review the remuneration and termination arrangements for executives and senior officers. I look forward to the outcome of that review by the board.

1578 Alberta Hansard May 2, 1994 MR. DECORE: That's not good enough, Mr. Speaker. Will the Treasurer confirm that a mistake has been made by the Treasurer and that he will move now to roll back the salary of $276,000 of Mr. Campbell, his severance package of $570,000, and com- pletely eliminate a pension package for this individual? MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, I didn't wait until now. We took action two weeks ago. MR. DECORE: Mr.

Premier, will you agree that a puny letter to the board that the Treasurer has sent is not good enough, that you now must become involved and ensure that there is no big fat severance package, that there is no continued big fat salary, and that there are no pension benefits for this individual? MR. KLEIN: Well, the letter in my mind was not a puny letter at all. It was a very straightforward letter asking the board of directors of North West Trust to do something about salaries, which by the way, Mr. Speaker, were negotiated some years ago.

What was deemed to be right at that particular time is perhaps not appropriate for today, and we want the board of directors to address this particular situation. I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that the Liberals should be very, very thankful to us for doing most of their research, because it was through amendments to the Financial Administration Act that these agencies are now required to publish their salaries. Even with their $2 million research budget they probably wouldn't have found that out unless we had given them the information in the first place. Independence of Judiciary MR. DECORE: Mr.

Speaker, when Albertans go to the courts, they are often involved with some branch or agency of the government. AN HON. MEMBER: Ask Percy. MR. DECORE: No. I'm going to ask the Premier because he seems to know all about judges. The Premier stated this weekend that he hires Provincial Court judges and he can fire Provincial Court judges. That's called control. Our Constitution makes it clear that there's a division between government and the judiciary. Mr. Premier, will you confirm that you have no power – no power – to give orders to the court, to say that you hire them and therefore you can fire them?

Y ou can't fire them, and you know it. MR. KLEIN: Mr. Speaker, I'm going to have the hon. Justice minister supplement. There is no doubt about it: we hire judges. There is no doubt about it: we hire Provincial Court judges. As a matter of fact, for the last two to be hired, I recall quite clearly signing the order in council along with the Lieutenant Governor. There is a process, yes. And I stand to be corrected. To fire a Provincial Court judge also involves an OC, but there is a procedure that involves, I believe, the Judicial Council and the chief judge. I will have the hon.

Justice minister supplement as to what that procedure is. MR. ROSTAD: Mr. Speaker, there's no doubt that the Constitu- tion sets out that the judiciary is an independent body, and in fact our democracy is predicated on that. I can affirm that the government of Alberta thinks that the judicial independence concept is paramount.

The Premier is absolutely correct that we do hire, and in the event that a judge is to be fired, we do fire, but there is an arm's-length body, the Judicial Council, that hears recommendations from the chief judge of the Provincial Court, who has the day-to-day responsibility for the administration of the judiciary, in this instance the Provincial Court. In fact, the item of the last day has been before the chief judge, and I would expect the resolution of that matter to come.

In the event it hasn't, he would recommend the issue to the Judicial Council, and the Judicial Council would then do whatever they do in terms of their hearings and whatever determination they came to. In what would be an unfortunate circumstance, if they were ever to recommend that a judge be fired, that would come, then, to the government, and only then would the government have the capacity to in fact fire a judge. MR. DECORE: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister of Justice agree that the comments made by the Premier went way too far – way too far – because they became a threat, a threat to the judiciary that is completely improper? MR. SPEAKER: That question will not be accepted. MR. DECORE: All right. Mr. Premier, I'll ask you. I'll ask you if the Minister of Justice won't answer it. Will the Premier agree that he made a big mistake in threatening the court and that this kind of activity by a Premier is wrong and shouldn't be done in the way he did it? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Before the hon.

Premier answers the question, the Chair wants to make it quite clear that the hon. Minister of Justice did not refuse to answer the supplemental question. The Chair asked him not to answer it. MR. KLEIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to make this quite clear: I would never interfere in the conduct of an officer of the court and the administration of justice, and no one in this caucus would. I can't speak for that caucus, but no one in this caucus would.

I will say that if someone who is earning taxpayers' dollars, good taxpayers' dollars, well over a hundred thousand dollars a year, has a problem relative to his wage package and says, "I will not sit, and I will not work, but I want to get paid," I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with that. That's what I'm talking about. If any other employee in the service of the government of Alberta said, "I'm going to take my pay, but I'm not going to work," you know what would happen? At least from my point of view, he would be fired. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo.

Third main question. 2:00 Y oung Offenders MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Albertans do not have confidence in the youth justice system. The Premier, however, has appointed a panel of Conservative MLAs to look at only one element of that system; namely, the federal Y oung Offenders Act. But this province is responsible for every other element of the young offender system. The Act is the only thing Alberta can't change. My question is to the hon. Premier.

Will the Premier expand the mandate of his Conservative task force to include all components of the system, including institutions, youth court, facilities, programs, police, and schools? MR. KLEIN: Mr. Speaker, I would highly suspect that that will evolve anyway as we get into the public participation process. Indeed we invite the public to a ddress issues as they see fit, but

May 2, 1994 Alberta Hansard 1579 the primary focus really will be on the Y oung Offenders Act. At least it is the perception of this government from the phone calls and the concern that has been expressed. Basically that concern is telling us that people are very, very concerned about that Act, how it's being enforced, how it is being administered. They would like to see the government develop a position relative to that Act and perhaps other matters pertaining to the administration of justice and the accompanying legislation so that we can take that position.

When the Minister of Justice goes and meets with his counterparts, he will have in his hand a firm government position. When I go to a First Ministers' Conference, I will have a firm government position relative to this very serious issue. MR. SPEAKER: Supplemental question. MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, I think the last response, then, begs this question: if youth crime is such a high priority for this government, why not make this an all-party panel, Mr. Premier, like you did for freedom of information? MR. KLEIN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, as much as the members of the opposition would like to be part of the government, the simple fact is that they are not. They are not. It is our responsibility to develop government positions. This is not unusual. We have gone through this exercise in the past.

I know that when the federal government had a position, for instance, on CO 2 emissions that could have been of great detriment to this province, the government then went out through a public hearing process and developed a position on CO2 emissions so that we could take that position to the federal government and strongly defend it with the backing of the government. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My final supplemen- tal question, then, is: why will the Premier charge into one area of federal responsibility like the Y oung Offenders Act and then say that there's absolutely nothing he can do about gun control, which is also a matter of federal responsibility? MR. KLEIN: Well, first of all, Mr. Speaker, I said nothing of the kind. I said nothing of the kind, and I would challenge the hon. member to show me the quote or the reference where I said that there was absolutely nothing we could do about gun control.

What I did say is that any member of my caucus has the right to express his or her view relative to gun control. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Vegreville-Viking. Summer Farm Employment Program MR. STELMACH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Since it began over 20 years ago, the summer farm employment program has provided a truly valuable service. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order. The hon. member. MR. STELMACH: Thank you.

This program has enabled a large number of young Albertans to acquire valuable farm work experience in addition to helping provide Alberta farmers with needed assistance during a very busy period of the year. Can the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development advise the House as to whether or not this program will be in place for this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development. MR. PASZKOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and to the hon. Member for Vegreville-Viking.

I am pleased to announce that, indeed, this program has proven itself to be so worth while that we will continue this program. In the past, to date, 34,000 young people have been not only trained but have also had the opportu- nity of developing work style and work ethics in the agricultural community. This program has been shown to be so worth while that we're very pleased that we're able to continue it for another year. MR. SPEAKER: Supplemental question. MR. STELMACH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister advise as to how many positions will be available in the program for this coming year? MR.

PASZKOWSKI: Y es, Mr. Speaker. I'm pleased to advise that up to 540 positions will be available for the young people to train in actual on-farm practice right on site. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR. STELMACH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the minister: are there any restrictions in place regarding who may participate in this program? MR. PASZKOWSKI: Y es, Mr. Speaker, there are some restrictions. The employee must be between 15 and 24 years old. The employee may not be a member of that particular farm family. He has to be from another source as far as employment opportunity is concerned.

The deadline for applications will be no later than May 20 of this year. The timing, as well, for the employees will be from the 1st of July until the end of August, as far as the program length is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Manning. Y oung Offenders (continued) MR. SEKULIC: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The former advo- cate's extensive study of child welfare included a review of the young offender system in which he concluded that the problem is wider than just the legislation. Now the government yet again is studying youth crime but from an enforcement point of view.

My question to the Minister of Family and Social Services is: why is the minister not providing his colleagues and this Assembly with reliable data about the correlation between juvenile crime and the circumstances in which children are raised? MR. CARDINAL: Mr. Speaker, I believe this government is doing quite well in dealing with the issue of children, at least under my department. We do have a considerable number of programs. We have a budget of over $200 million. We have over 8,000 children in care presently, and we do deliver programs in various ways.

Like I mentioned before, the budget we spend around the Edmonton area alone is over $500 million, and we have contracts with over 150 agencies across the province to deal

1580 Alberta Hansard May 2, 1994 with different forms of programs for the young. If time would allow, I could just mention a few of the services we provide. For an example, in the Edmonton . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. SEKULIC: Why hasn't the minister acted on the former advocate's recommendations on children and the young offender systems, such as working to ensure access to meaningful, co- ordinated, and appropriate services? MR. CARDINAL: Mr. Speaker, I believe this minister has taken action in relation to dealing with children that unfortunately come under our care.

We do have a review going on right now, the second phase of a three-phase review of the overall department. The first phase deals with the employables and trainables in the department, which allows us now to have more dollars to work within the high-needs area, including children and persons with disabilities a nd the elderly. The second phase of the welfare reforms, of course, deals with children's issues, and the third phase will deal with persons with disabilities. All three overlap in that area that the hon. member is asking me about.

We do have a long list of agencies we contract at this time that provide services around Edmonton, Calgary, and rural Alberta. If time allowed, I'd outline some of those services, but I know it probably doesn't. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplemental? 2:10 Sexual Orientation MR. JACQUES: Mr. Speaker, my constituents are again enraged and outraged – yes, outraged – by a recent news

article that quotes a Mr. Leland Stevenson, spokesman for the North American Man/Boy Love Association, expressing his joy at the recent decision by Madam Justice Anne Russell that Alberta's Individual's Rights Protection Act should include sexual orienta- tion as a protected category. The spokesman goes on to say that he is happy to hear that Alberta is moving towards, quote, more enlightened times, and he commends the Leader of the Opposition for demanding that the government not appeal – repeat, not appeal – the ruling of Madam Justice Anne Russell. My question is to the Minister of Justice.

Will your decision to appeal or not appeal reflect the rules of law, or will it reflect the demand of the leader of the Liberal opposition? MR. ROSTAD: Mr. Speaker, any appeal that the Department of Justice analyzes is based purely on law. As this case is before the courts in the sense of appeal, we should tread cautiously, and we'll have that decision forthcoming in the near future. MR. JACQUES: Mr. Speaker, again to the Minister of Justice. Will your decision therefore, Mr. Minister, take into account the demands of the majority of Albertans? MR. ROSTAD: Mr. Speaker, again it'll be based on questions of law.

That's all we can base the decision on. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR. JACQUES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the Minister of Justice: will you please advise the Assembly, Mr. Minister, on what date you will be advising of your decision on the appeal? MR. ROSTAD: Mr. Speaker, I don't mean to be evasive, but our department is challenged with looking at this case amongst others and bringing them forth. We do have a deadline of May 1 1 while Justice Russell has stayed this decision, so we'll definitely have to have it before then. I'm expecting it any day. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-McClung.

Magnetic Resonance Imaging MR. MITCHELL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ms Karen Iverson was afflicted earlier this year by muscular weakness and progres- sive numbness. Her doctor said that she should get an MRI right away but that she would have to wait four to six months before she could get one in an Alberta hospital. Considering this unreasonable and possibly dangerous delay, it was recommended that Ms Iverson go to a private MRI clinic and spend $1,250 to get this scan, which she did.

To the Minister of Health: what does the minister say to all those Albertans who don't happen to have $1,250 to get an MRI scan when their doctors say that they need one? MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I will not comment on the individual's particular case. In the case of MRI I think I have commented on this in this House a number of times. Alberta has more access per capita to MRI services than any other province in Canada unless there have been some very, very recent developments in the last few days. MRI services are provided to Albertans on a priorization basis based on a publicly funded system.

Each institution that has an MRI has a set of guidelines and has a priorization system. Certainly it is entirely incumbent upon the physician requesting the MRI to put the case forward and for that system to priorize. Mr. Speaker, my information is that if you need an MRI in Alberta today, you will receive one within 24 to 48 hours. Now, there are waiting lists on priorizati on. Again, I must make the point that the physician puts the individual's case forward and the documented reasons for request of that MRI, and that system is responsible for responding in a priorized fashion. MR.

MITCHELL: Well, there's something wrong with the system, Mr. Speaker. What system could possibly priorize as low as a four- to six-month wait progressive numbness, muscular weakness, which could clearly be related to multiple sclerosis or a hidden tumour of the spine? MRS. McCLELLAN: This minist er will not diagnose in this Legislature, unlike the member opposite. However, again, individual cases have to be dealt with with their physician and with the hospital required, or if a person wishes to contact the minister, I will speak or write to them directly regarding their concerns. Mr.

Speaker, I do believe that we in this House should depend on the experts, the professionals in the system. Again, Alberta has the best access to MRI in a publicly funded system of any province in Canada. MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, this person contacted the minister on March 30 and contacted the minister's department in February, and she still hasn't received any kind of response from this minister.

Why does the minister allow the MRI at the Cross cancer hospital to sit idle for five days a week, the MRI at the University hospital to sit idle for as much as three to three and a half days a week, when the proper use of that equipment could solve the four- to six-month waiting list that ex ists out there right now and at relatively little, at marginal cost?

May 2, 1994 Alberta Hansard 1581 MRS. McCLELLAN: There are occasions when MRI requires some maintenance and some upkeep, and that has occurred. However, the hours of operation of the MRIs are completely within the discretion of the institution that houses that MRI. Mr. Speaker, the MRI are funded within the global budget of a hospital. They have the opportunity to reallocate diagnostic dollars to increased use of MRI if they feel that's in the best interest of the health of their patients.

Again, I have to say that I believe the experts, the professionals in this field are the best to judge the use of this diagnostic test and for what it is used. It is my intention to continue to allow that to happen. I have to remind the hon. member one more time that this province has more access to publicly funded MRI than any other province in Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Varsity. Canadian Airlines International Ltd. MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Knowing the compe- tence of the Provincial Treasurer and his department as custodian of Alberta dollars, in the ongoin g spirit of open disclosure the Provincial Treasurer has tabled with this House a loan guarantee agreement between Canadian Airlines and the taxpayers of Alberta. In light of the new agreement recently signed by American Airlines and Canadian Airlines to ensure continued competition in the airline industry for the benefit of Albertans, do the terms of our agreement with them change? MR. DINNING: No, Mr. Speaker. The agreement between the government of Alberta and PW A Corporation stays intact.

In fact, now that the agreement has been signed and the arrangement and the relationship with American Airlines has been consum- mated, this is a good deal for the people of Alberta. It's great news for the employees and the shareholders and the creditors and the other governments, Canada and British Columbia, along with ourselves, who contributed to make this important Alberta industry – and I underscore that: this important Alberta industry – get over that bridge and get into a mode where they have a very, very positive and bright future.

It's good for the Canadian traveling public, and we're proud to have been part of it. The obligation that Canadian Airlines undertook through PW A Corp, with a $50 million loan through the loan guarantee, remains intact, and all conditions are as they were from the day the agreement was tabled in this Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Supplemental question. MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When will the guarantee commence to be either reduced or removed? MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, the $50 million becomes repay- able immediately at the time of the agreement, which was last week, April 27.

It's repayable under the following condition: beginning July 27, 1994, the corporation will make 12 quarterly payments of principal and interest over that 36-month period to the provincial government. 2:20 MR. SMITH: What position, Mr. Speaker, in terms of security or repayment do the taxpayers of Alberta have relative to the new financial structure of the company? MR. DINNING: Well, Mr.

Speaker, all of the security that was associated with the guarantee and then subsequently as the guarantee was drawn down is spelled out in the guarantee package that was filed in this Assembly about a year ago in the interests of disclosure and full transparency. That is a practice that this government has undertaken since day one. I would refer the hon. member and others to that guarantee agreement, where the security and our position are backed up by assets owned by the company. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. Biomedical Waste Disposal MR. SAPERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Hospitals are forced to sort, store, and then ship their garbage to the government- created private monopoly at Beeseker. On the other hand, the government recognizes the ability . . . [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order please. [interjections] Order. [interjec- tions] Order please. For the record it's Beiseker. MR. SAPERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [interjection] They are listening. Thank you for that correction. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order. [interjections] Order, hon. members. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. MR. SAPERS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Hospitals are forced to ship their waste to Beiseker, but on the other hand private laboratories are allowed to find the lowest cost means of dealing with their waste while still meeting environmental standards. To the Minister of Health: why have regional incinerators been shut down even when they could be easily upgraded to meet environ- mental standards at no additional cost to the taxpayer? MRS. McCLELLAN: A

preamble can certainly be interesting. If you listened to the hon. member, you would suggest that every hospital is completely taking all of its garbage to Beiseker, which is just east of Calgary, for the hon. member's information. Absolutely wrong, Mr. Speaker. Absolutely wrong. Biomedical waste is being transported from many hospitals because their incinerators do not meet our environmental standards. Now, it is a judgment that it is too costly to upgrade the number of regional incinerators or hospital incinerators in this province to meet those standards. This has been worked out on a cost basis.

Biomedical waste is a very small part of hospital waste, and hospitals are managing the regular waste out of their hospitals right there. I should think the hon. member would want us to handle biomedical waste in the best way possible. Our environmental standards are constantly being upgraded and changed, and it would certainly seem quite in order to have a facility to handle that. Mr. Speaker, it is not a government facility in any way, and any private-sector person who wishes to put up an incinerator to meet those standards can do it today. MR. SPEAKER: Supplemental question. MR. SAPERS: Thanks.

To the Minister of Health again then: why was the Grande Prairie regional hospital forbidden, then, if this is just a matter of dollars, from entering into a contract with a North Dakota company, where they could ship their waste cheaper than sending it to the Bovar facility? MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr. Speaker , I will certainly look into that. As to where they send it, the shipment of biomedical waste by the hospital is a matter in thei r jurisdiction. Now, there are

1582 Alberta Hansard May 2, 1994 such things as interprovincial or intercountry agreements that would have to be met. The minister of the environment may have some additional information that he would want to supplement on this whole issue. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR. SAPERS: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. If the government is truly concerned about the environment and not just s upporting the private monopoly, the one by Bovar, why are laboratories allowed to find alternatives for the efficient and effective disposal of their waste but hospitals aren't? MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr.

Speaker, all health facilities have a responsibility to dispose of biomedical waste in a safe manner. The hospitals in this province are funded by Alberta Health and by the taxpayers of this province. We do set standards and guidelines and some controls on how they manage waste. This is part of it. So I would say that it's quite responsible that we ensure that these wastes are handled in a safe way. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Little Bow. Student Achievement Tests MR. McFARLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I've been asked a number of questions by a few professional teachers in my constituency concerning achievement testing and the increased emphasis on testing. To the Minister of Education: will the results of achievement tests throughout our educational system have any discernible meaning if test results of ESL students, special ed students, or learning disabled children are included in the averages? MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, there is a provision in the policy and guidelines related to the administration of achievement tests which allows students who would not benefit from writing these tests to be exempt from that particular sitting of the test. I would also like to add that it is, however, very important to monitor this situation, because provided the system and the students will benefit from the achievement tests, we want to make sure that all eligible students do write those tests. MR. SPEAKER: Supplemental question. MR. McFARLAND: Thank you.

The supplemental to the minister: will these results accurately portray acceptable teaching methods if these students' marks are included in the results, these marks being ESL, special ed, or the handicapped, sir? MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, it is for the very reason that these results may not serve any useful purpose that we therefore provide for the exemption that I mentioned in my first answer. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR. McF ARLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Then to the minister: will there be a method to evaluate students at the beginning of the year and towards the end of the year to deter- mine the student's progress rather than whether he or she has achieved an adequate test result? MR. JONSON: Well, I would certainly hope so, Mr. Speaker. That is one of the very important functions that students working with their teachers and in the classrooms go thr ough. There's always an assessment, I think, at the beginning of the year, and throughout the year there are several tests, I'm sure, and other methods of evaluation are applied.

So in terms of measuring at the beginning and the end of the year, that is a matter of school responsibility. Consideration is being given to administering the achievement tests closer to the end of the school year so that they might be of some value in the school's evaluation as well as being of benefit to developing curriculum and improving programs at the provincial level. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Avonmore. Second Language Programs MR. ZWOZDESKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Prior to the recent devastating cuts to education in our province, Alberta was envied for its support for education, including heritage languages. Kindergarten in particular provides an early learning opportunity for children whose first language is not English. One such example is the Russian-speakin g children in the community of Plamondon, whose kindergarten time is destined to disappear as a result of cuts to ECS funding. My question is to the Minister of Education. Why is he allowing such a disadvantage to occur against these Plamondon children and hundreds of others like them in our province? MR.

JONSON: Mr. Speaker, the language grant program that we've had in place for some time is continuing. It is certainly reduced by 5 percent as of September 1 and 2 and a half percent as of September 1, 1995. 2:30 MR. ZWOZDESKY: Y es, but we're talking specifically kinder- garten here on behalf of a community that otherwise doesn't have the same access to information. I w onder if the minister would provide some guarantee of funding to grade 1 so that children from heritage language co mmunities such as Plamondon and others could make up for the lost instruction time. MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, certainly the funding of grade 1 to grade 12 continues as outlined in considerable detail in the budget announcements and in the business program. MR. ZWOZDESKY: We're talking about children who are born here, Mr. Speaker, who can't get this kind of support. I wonder if the minister would perhaps then guarantee the Plamondon community some access to the funding available from the enhanced opportunity grant program to ensure a 400-hour, full- fledged program for kindergarten in their area. MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, as I understand the question, the hon. member is asking for a guarantee of an optional or an additional language program in the schools of this province. I think that is something that is a priority and a decision to be made by local school boards. All across this province school boards are faced with making decisions as to what additional sec ond lan- guages can be offered in a particular jurisdiction, and this will be the case with respect to grade 1 in the Lac La Biche school division. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lethbridge-West.

May 2, 1994 Alberta Hansard 1583 Francophone Education in Lethbridge MR. DUNFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are to the Minister of Education. The francophone co-ordinating council in Lethbridge had expressed an interest in acquiring one of two schools that have been closed, the Dorothy Gooder and the Hardieville schools. Now, my understanding is that the minister has approved the sale of Dorothy Gooder by the public school board to a religious group in Lethbridge. My first question is: has the minister approved the use of the Hardieville school for the francophone co-ordinating council? MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, no, I have not approved the use of the Hardieville school for that purpose. However, I would like to go on to indicate that I have met with representatives of the francophone co-ordinating council in that area, and I do note that they have expressed an interest in utilizing the Hardieville school. That decision, if it were to be made, would depend upon a significantly increased enrollment and justification for devoting an entire school for this purpose, but certainly they have made their presentation, and they have put forward their preference. MR. SPEAKER: Supplemental question. MR. DUNFORD: Y es.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the Catholic school board cannot afford any more than a French program within an existing school, as currently is the case, can they be forced into funding a stand-alone school? MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, I think I would have to say to the hon. member that it is a debatable point as to affordability and nonaffordability as far as the future is concerned. Any school becomes more viable as a free-standing operation if there is the enrollment to justify it and to utilize the space that's provided for it.

So with respect to the que stion, I can only say that it will depend on what the future holds in terms of increased enrollments and the degree of viability there would be in making that sort of a move. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR. DUNFORD: Y es. Thank you again, Mr. Speaker. Again to the minister: are there amalgamation opportunities for the francophone co-ordinating council in Lethbridge? MR. JONSON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the co-ordinating councils are designed to promote and support a francophone program within a particular area of the province, and because of them being of that nature, there are not any of the usual types of opportunities to link up with a district school division or county. However, if there were to be a francophone authority, as was provided for in Bill 8, established in a neighbouring area of the province, say in the Calgary area, there is a possibility of some sort of joint arrangement being arrived at, yes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. School Board Finances MR.

LANGEVIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The regionalization of school boards will bring several boards under one administra- tion and under one new funding formula. Boards will join a newly formed region with different levels of financial reserves, liabilities, and even unfunded debts. My question to the Minister of Education: will the boards who have reserves be able to retain these dollars for the benefit of their own local schools? MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to dealing with surpluses or reserves and the whole process of amalgamation and regionalization, the position that my department has been directed to take is that if a school board has an unsupported debt and in their reserves they have capital reserves dedicated to that project, we expect them to be applied to paying down that debt. If, on the other hand, they have a general surplus, that surplus can be applied either in the course of this school year or it can be part of the overall agreement in the distribution of funds when boards amalgamate or regionalize. MR.

SPEAKER: Supplemental question? MR. LANGEVIN: Y es. My question's again to the Minister of Education. In the case where there are no reserves available, who will be responsible for unsupported debts? The government, the local boards, or the newly formed regions? MR. JONSON: In terms of, Mr. Speaker, I guess you would call it underwriting or guaranteeing the debt, with the move to full provincial funding, the province will be.

With respect to how the payment of the liability incurred in that debt will be addressed, that will be a question for the working out of a new provincial funding formula, which we expect to have in place by the fall of '95. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplemental. MR. LANGEVIN: Again to the Minister of Education: who will be responsible for existing deficits that were formed just on the eve of leaving it and joining a new board? MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, I would have to discuss the specific circumstances of a deficit that a school board has been running, because it is somewhat contrary perhaps to legislation.

I would have to examine the peculiar circumstances. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-East. Ambulance Services MR. AMERY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health. Can the minister tell the House if the planned integration of emergency services under the new regional health authorities will result in a reduced level of ambulance service? MRS. McCLELLAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, on February 2 I announced some guidelines for establishing regional authorities.

At that time I suggested that it was important to have linkages between ambulance emergency services and the regional health authorities. However, there is nothing in this government's plans to consolidate all of the ambulance services that are presently available under the regional health authorities. That is something that the regional health authorities may want to discuss as they progress through their business plans, but today that is not our plan. MR. SPEAKER: Supplemental question. MR. AMERY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If the regional authorities control ambulance services, will the municipalities be left to assume the costs?

1584 Alberta Hansard May 2, 1994 MRS. McCLELLAN: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, that is certainly not our intention. Ambulance services in this province are operated in a number of ways and delivered in a number of ways. Alberta Health is responsible for interfacility transfer of patients in total for the air ambulance program, but other ambulance services are operated in some cases by fire departments, by municipalities, or through a hospital program. So as I've indicated in my first answer, it is not the intention of this department to change that arrangement at this time.

However, if regional health authorities wish to discuss with municipalities how they deliver those services, I am sure that would be a discussion welcomed. 2:40 MR. SPEAKER: Supplemental. MR. AMERY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: is the province looking for a free ride by downloading responsibil- ity for ambulance services onto municipalities? MRS. McCLELLAN: Certainly, Mr. Speaker, no. Today we'd spend about $28 million in ambulance services. Again, I would expect that any arrangements that the regional health authorities wish to discuss with municipalities should be done on that basis.

Regional health authorities would have the responsibility obviously for the delivery of interfacility transfers, as they have today, and may assume some responsibility for air ambulance, which is totally provincially funded. MR. SPEAKER: The time for question period has expired. head: Orders of the Day head: Royal Assent MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor will now attend upon the Assembly. [The Premier and the Sergeant-at-Arms left the Chamber to attend the Lieutenant Governor] [The Mace was draped] [The Sergeant-at-Arms knocked on the main doors of the Chamber three times.

The Associate Sergeant-at-Arms opened the door, and the Sergeant-at-Arms entered] SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: All rise, please. Mr. Speaker, His Honour the Lieutenant Governor awaits. MR. SPEAKER: Sergeant-at-Arms, admit His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. [Mr. Speaker left the Chair] [Preceded by the Sergeant-at-Arms, His H onour the Lieutenant Governor of Alberta, Gordon Towers, and the Premier entered the Chamber. His Honour took his place upon the throne] HIS HONOUR: Please be seated. MR.

SPEAKER: May it please Y our Honour, the Legislative Assembly has, at its present sittings, passed certain Bills to which, and in the name of the Legislative Assembly, I respectively request Y our Honour's assent. CLERK: Y our Honour, the following are the titles of the Bills to which Y our Honour's assent is prayed. No.

Title 3 Natural Gas Marketing Amendment Act, 1994 4 Employment Standards Code Amendment Act, 1994 24 Appropriation Act, 1994 25 Appropriation (Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund, Capital Projects Division) Act, 1994 26 Appropriation (Lottery Fund) Act, 1994 Pr. 2 Lethbridge Foundation Amendment Act, 1994 Pr. 3 Companions of Angela and Francis (Koinonia Associa- tion) Act Pr. 8 Shaw Communications Inc.

Act Pr. 9 Tammy Lee Barnes Adoption Act Pr. 10 Janna Adella Marie Kinnee Adoption Act Pr. 15 Silvia Kathleen Miles Adoption Act 207 Adult Adoption Act [The Lieutenant Governor indicated his assent] CLERK: In Her Majesty's name His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor doth assent to these Bills. SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: All rise, please. [Preceded by the Sergeant-at-Arms, the Lieutenant Governor and the Premier left the Chamber] [Mr. Speaker took his pl ace in the Chair, and the M ace was uncovered] MR.

SPEAKER: Please be seated. head: Government Bills and Orders head: Second Reading 2:50 Bill 19 School Amendment Act, 1994 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Vegreville-Viking. MR. STELMACH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm privileged to lead the debate on Bill 19. The other day I made some comments with respect to the position that the Member for Edmonton- Avonmore took in that he had expressed concern for keeping some of the small schools open in rural Alberta. I had also made the comment that if he gave up some of his salary as a teacher, he may keep them open.

Well, it would take more than a portion of his salary to keep some of the schools open. As I go through some of the Bill 19 amendments, I know that at the end of the day the Member for Edmonton-Avonmore will be supporting the Bill because in essence this Bill prov ides for equity in education no matter where you live in Alberta. [Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair] Mr. Speaker, as a former reeve and a member of the school board I was involved in a fair amount of meetings and debates over the provincial funding and equity in education question. I remember back to the days when the hon.

Provincial Treasurer was the Minister of Education and trying to reach a consensus with the number of school boards that we had in Alberta and a consensus on equity in education. One of the things that we agree on in terms of principles is that children are created equal in this

May 2, 1994 Alberta Hansard 1585 province and, as well, that they have a right to access a basic education again no matter where they live in this province. One of the other principles, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is the fact that location of industry is a function of geography. We have often heard through the debates on fiscal equity that various representatives from school jurisdictions have told us how they have cajoled and invited industry into their particular district and, as a result, increased the assessment and, of course, created more dollars for education within their jurisdiction.

One of the things that has happened, however, is that the industry located in those jurisdictions, municipalities, either had a good form of transporta- tion to ship the product that they were manufacturing or there was a well-trained work force that was close to the industry setting up or they were seed stock. We found out that industry developed, generally speaking, along corridors in this province. This really became a topic of debate through the meetings we had, and as a result, it came to a number of Alberta School Boards Association conventions.

In fact, some of the conventions that I had the pleasure of attending didn't get past the first resolution, and most of the time it was fiscal equity that was the number one resolution we had to deal with. I'd like to remind this Assembly that the decision that was reached by the ASBA was made on a weighted ballot. It wasn't made democratically by a show of hands. Really the weighted ballot was determined by the amount of dollars you spent, not based on the educational needs of the student in that particular jurisdiction. So if you spent more money, you had more votes.

Of course, those of you who were school trustees prior to coming to this House knew that if Edmonton and Calgary got together, their weighted ballots would completely remove any influence that rural school jurisdictions had in winning a vote. Something similar to what happens here in the House: all you need is a small number of members to rise after a show of hands and call for a weighted-ballot vote. I don't remember the exact number in the bylaws, but it could have been 15 or 18 members that needed to rise.

As a result, some of the smaller boards really didn't get much of an opportunity to influence the decision-making of the Alberta School Boards Association. Finally government has made a decision, and we've written that into the Act in terms of full provincial funding, which will provide for basic, equitable education for children no matter where they live in Alberta. As a result, we will be able to keep some of these small schools open in parts of Alberta. By closing some of those schools, students would be forced to travel a great distance to access education in a nei ghbouring sc hool.

It may mean in some of those cases the closure of those schools where students would have to travel more than two hours in one direction, and that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is not equitable. The other area I'd like to cover is regionalization. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we can no longer support a ratio of trustees in some of these school jurisdictions of one trustee to 50 students. We find that ratio in many of the school jurisdictions in Alberta. As a result, we have to regionalize, amalgamate, reduce the number of boards. We will have fewer trustees and introduce greater efficiency into the system. [Mr.

Speaker in the Chair] With respect to the role of the school boards, the legislation in Bill 19 will ensure that school boards will continue to be responsi- ble for the employment and termination of all staff, the transporta- tion of students, the setting up of bus routes, the budgeting and accounting of all moneys from the province, the setting of fees, the construction and renovation of schools and other buildings within their jurisdiction, and subject to legislation and regulation the establishment of policies and the hearing of appeals, the closure of schools, and the accountability for and the communica- tion of student achievement.

Mr. Speaker, as well, they will have an added responsibility for the development of three-year business plans and also the discretion to grant charters to charter schools. Overall, I believe that Bill 19 will bring a much needed change to our educational system. The public perception of the upper educational system has not really been that supportive over the last number of years, and I believe this Bill will allow for teachers to have more authority in the classroom, allow the principals of the schools to be leaders.

It w ill certainly involve more and more parents in the decision-making at the local school level as it reflects the discipline, some of the planned student achievements, and the direction the school is taking. So on those points, Mr. Speaker, I know that we'll have good support for the amendments in Bill 19 and thank you for the opportunity. 3:00 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Beverly- Belmont. MR. Y ANKOWSKY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This govern- ment is discriminating against Catholic and independent schools.

On March 31 Bill 19, the School Amendment Act, was unveiled and people all across the province stopped in their tracks. What was this? Once again the government proved how it does not listen to the people who elected us to govern. The Premier said as much in the Legislature recently when several separate school boards decided to voice their opinions. That was back on Thursday, April 14. He said that the government won't make decisions based on the size of rallies. What kind of message does that send out, Mr. Premier?

How are people in this province supposed to express their concerns before Bills become legisla- tion? Bill 19 outlines ways to restructure basic education, but it's not about education. This government is talking about money. This proposal is to remove the taxation power from school boards. The province would collect all property taxes for education and place them in the Alberta school foundation fund, or the ASFF. In essence, the government would take all the property tax money and put it in a big pot, doling it out to the different boards in a fair and equitable manner. Like many things, this sounds good.

It sounds like poor boards would be able to access the same funds as wealthier boards. There's one huge flaw in this plan: the legislation does not specifically address the formula. This is a very important issue. If a formula is not included in the Act, it could change based on the whim of the minister. How can the government even debate this issue without seeing the formula that would equally distribute the collected money? The government should spell this out before they go any further. If a school board needs additional funding than the allocated amount, they would be forced to hold a plebiscite.

This means some boards would remain in a have-not situation, while the wealthier boards could provide additional programs. I thought this amendment to the Act was to get rid of this scenario. Students across Alberta deserve the best, regardless if they live in Lethbridge or in High Level. Even if the board did have a plebiscite and raised money from it, the minister would tell them how to spend it. Once again the minister would be exerting power over the local community. This plebiscite will only raise 3 percent of their operating budget, and boards will only be allowed to hold one once every three years.

1586 Alberta Hansard May 2, 1994 Recently Catholics across the province st ood up against this government. They do not want the government controlling the collection of school taxes. They maintain that this violates their rights under the Constitution. Nearly 10,000 Albertan Catholics gathered to send a message to this government that they don't like this Bill, and they want to make sure that they are heard. Well, I heard them, and so did this Liberal caucus. In 1988 separate school boards won the right to access some of the undeclared property tax dollars.

Prior to that, all undeclared tax dollars went solely to public boards. With this change to the School Act, the government is giving the separate school boards some choices. It's saying: if you don't like this plan, you can always withdraw from the Alberta school foundation fund altogether. But withdrawing from this fund is not that beneficial to most boards. If the board chooses to leave the ASFF, they will lose the undeclared portion of residential and corporate taxes. Remember, separate boards just won the right to some of that money in 1988, and now they could lose it.

That's a substantial loss to most boards. If the separate board did not belong to the provincial fund and wanted more money than they were allocated, a plebiscite for them would only allow them access to declared residential and corporate taxes. Bill 19 does not guarantee that separate school boards will r eceive as much money as they do now. It's all up to the minister. Why can't the government leave the separate school assessment alone? Why fix something when it's not broken? Does this not prove to the government that they should take another look?

Those who work in this area daily are the truly knowledgeable ones. If they are concerned, then maybe the government should be. It would seem that Alberta Education is going on a voucher system. Although that may seem attractive to some, it will be detrimental to small rural school districts. This system will allow funding to follow the student. It sounds good, but if that student lives in a rural district and decides to attend an urban school, the rural school will suffer. Many rural schools are already strug- gling with small student populations.

We should have a test period with this voucher system to evaluate the impact on small rural schools. The majority of school boards in this province are against this plan. Does this not say something? Concerns have been expressed by the ATA and the ASBA. These groups make up the people who run our schools. Wouldn't the people who run schools know what will work and what won't? Maybe we should ask for their suggestions. Bill 19 destroys the autonomy of the boards, placing important decisions in the hands of the minister. Does the Minister of Education think he does not have enough power right now?

A good leader delegates authority. Instead, the minister wants complete control. Why else would he go after the power to order a school board to repl ace a superintendent? Is that really a minister's job? Can't school boards handle those kinds of tasks? They have been for years. Under Bill 19 superintendents will no longer be responsible to the members of the school board. Their job will be to implement the mini ster's policy. This control by the minister's office will have an adverse effect on school boards.

Not only will they lose their autonomy, but the community decision-making body of the area will be in jeopardy. The Official Opposition believes funding changes need to happen. Right now the province funds 58 percent of the school board's spending with 42 percent coming from property taxes. Changes to the Act give 100 percent of funding coming from the province. This leaves the school board with no way of getting additional funding. The sc hool boards lose power. We believe the province should provide 85 percent of the funding with the remaining 15 percent coming from property taxes.

This still gives school boards the freedom to continue offering programs in their schools that they deem n ecessary. Bill 19 has all the funding coming from the province based on a per capita system. As I mentioned before, if a board needs more, a plebiscite would have to happen. Bill 19 also allows for the creation of charter schools without local school board support. If a group cannot agree to terms with their local public or separate school board, the group could bypass the boards and go straight to the minister for approval.

We believe the minister should not grant charters to schools where they have been refused by the local school boards. What is preventing the government from full funding of the new charter schools but completely ignoring existing independent schools? 3:10 Bill 19 clearly states that charter schools w ill be public or separate and not private. Existing independent schools have been receiving f unding from the government, and nowhere in this documentation for Bill 19 does it mention these schools.

Right now independent schools are concerned that the government will not allow them to apply for charter school status so that they, too, can take advantage of the funding. They already fit the criteria for charter schools. The government is suggesting funding pilot sc hools, leaving existing independent schools out. I don't know how the govern- ment can justify funding new, experimental schools while refusing to fund existing, alternative schools. Public moneys will be used to fund private choices. This needs to be looked at very carefully. The government could be treading on very unsafe ground.

Who will provide the evaluation of charter schools? Who will make sure that properly trained instructors are teaching our children? This Bill also looks at amalgamation of boards. We agree with this; however, the government had better make sure that it does not amalgamate a separate board with a public. The government must respect the rights of these two groups. Another area that will change is that Bill 19 provides a greater role for parents and communities in the school system. That, too, sounds good, but that also leaves a huge area for abuse.

For example, what if a school group is controlled by parents who do not represent the will of the majority? This, too, takes away power from the elected board members. The school board's role is at risk. This Bill will phase out school boards, and that will lead to problems down the road. The education of our children will suffer if boards, who have a great understanding of the needs of their students, are eliminated. The minister needs to take another look at this Bill before third reading. We cannot and should not allow changes to our educa- tional system that would adversely affect our children.

This is very serious. The province must not violate the powers of the school boards. This is a democracy, and boards are elected by residents in that area. They have a better understanding of their needs than the minister in an office miles away. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for St. Albert. MR. BRACKO: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's indeed a privilege to stand up and speak to Bill 19, amendments to the School Act. The education business has always been close to my heart, and during the last 30 years I have followed what is happening around the world.

What has happened is: your government has economi- cally destroyed this province. However, I will carry on with the education part. I've had the opportunity to travel to Asia and

May 2, 1994 Alberta Hansard 1587 Africa, visit many systems and many countries to see what they're doing well and to see what we may be doing better. I've traveled to Africa. I've traveled to other parts of the world to listen, to hear what is going on. As we look at the amendments to the Bill, we should also be looking at what is best. How do we find out what is best? We look at what is happening in many parts of the world, pick out what's best from their countries, and implement it here if it makes sense. We don't have to travel.

I know that a former minister took a group touring Europe and other countries, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to come up with a report. I read through the report, and not too much, if anything, was implemented from it. We didn't learn from it. All we have to do is go to the University of Alberta where you have in the department of education experts from these various countries – whether it's Japan, Korea, Taiwan, the Orient, or whether it's Europe, France, Germany, Holland – and see how they have put together their educational systems. Or we could go to South America.

Many come here from South America – Brazil, Argentina – to study. We can get a group of experts from all over the world at almost next to no cost to get together and see what changes need to be made so our education system is competitive with any other system in the world today. I did have the opportunity to go through Toward 2000, the economic development policy paper, and one statement that comes out is: education is our future. Education is our future. This is the case.

If we are prepared – like our parents and grandparents provided the avenues for us to take advantage of the opportunities, we need to do this for the next generations. We ourselves lived in a time when we were able to take education and move ahead, benefit from it. If we worked hard, we had the capability to be part of the economic system. We also should be looking at the business that goes on through- out the world. In other words, education does not stand alone. It's integrated with business and an infrastructure, the health care system, in the different countries.

The leading economic coun- tries have an excellent education system and work with their education system as well as an infrastructure for health care in looking after those who need the assistance, not making them dependent on the system but assisting them to be part of the society and the opportunities to be involved in having jobs and so on. I have visited Japan and looked at their system. In fact, we have what is known as the Y amada exchange, and this exchange started out of the Y amada high school in Japan and has gone across Alberta. It rotates on a three-year basis.

Southern Alberta, Calgary, has this exchange of 200 or 300 students every third year. Red Deer, central Alberta from Rocky Mountain House across, I believe, to the Saskatchewan border, has had this group once or twice. Then Edmonton and the northern regions also have the Y amada exchange. Tremendous learning occurs when we mix students from different countries. They learn from our system; we learn from their system. They come over. They see what has happened here. The opport unities that we have ar e different from the opportunities in Japan.

Our students go over there and vice versa, see what opportunities the Japanese have that we don't, what the emphasis is on. The systems are quite different in many ways. We know that in some areas cer tain segments in the Japanese schools or education system may be slightly ahead. What we must do is use our education budget. I believe it's – what? – $14 million to $15 million or $12 million to $13 million for the Department of Education to look at the total picture and compare apples to apples. We always get reports that this country is better than ours, but we never look at the complete picture.

In some areas in Japan their sciences and maths are ahead of ours, but when you look at the total number of students that take part on a per capita basis, it doesn't hold true. The Japanese system eliminates – eliminates – many students from taking part along the way. If you don't get into the best play school, you don't . . . DR. WEST: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs is rising on a point of order. Point of Order Questioning a Member DR. WEST: Y eah. Would the hon. member entertain a question in debate? 3:20 MR. BRACKO: No, Mr. Speaker.

I have too many important things to tell, but I'd be glad to speak with him. I'll even go to his office after this session and talk with him and enlighten him. Maybe he can get a new trick. He's using this one all the time. Y ou know, there must be something else he can learn. DR. WEST: It's an honest question. MR. BRACKO: Well, sure. I'll be glad to later. Debate Continued MR. BRACKO: Anyway, ladies and gentlemen, as we look at the number per capita, we see that a large number are eliminated along the way.

If you don't get into the right play school, you don't get into the right kindergarten, and then you can't get into the right elementary school, the right junior high school, the right senior high school, and then in the right university. They're cut off. There is not the same emphasis here on equality of educa- tion. We're way ahead. They are a very status-based education system, which eliminates a majority of the students before they are able to graduate, and it's based many times on the amount of money that the parents have. Y ou can see that. So we have to compare apples to apples.

We've had the privilege, my wife and I, of having a Japanese exchange student for two years in our home and going to St. Albert high. She did extremely well but did not qualify to get into a Canadian university in Alberta. However, she did apply and got into the best private university in Japan. She can't get in here, but she can get into the best private university in Japan. So what is that saying to us? So we have to have a comparison that works, and it's important that we do. Also, the person in charge of the Y amada exchange for many years came over here and for several years got used to our system.

He of course took the best from the Japanese system, but he decided in his 50s to move to Canada. In Japan this is almost unheard of. Y ou stay with the company or the school or wher- ever you're working for a lifetime. But at that age, with three high school students he decided to come to North America to take advantage of the system we have here. The aspects, he knew, were better than what they had in Japan where they're regimented to be able to think.

Also, I discussed with our exchange student's father, who's a businessman in Japan, for many hours the education advantages in Japan, the education advantages in Canada. He was saying that to get into the top university in Japan, the University of Tokyo, you have to memorize three thick books, and whoever memorizes these three thick books gets in with the highest marks. But it

1588 Alberta Hansard May 2, 1994 doesn't teach them to think for themselves. They come out being able to memorize and regurgitate what they've taken in, but the thinking that should be there isn't there like in our system. So what we have: they come out and they of course get the jobs at the top firms, but the leadership isn't there. So they are coming over, picking up the good ideas from here and taking them back.

Throughout the world the Japanese are sending exchange students to learn the ways of different countries not only for education but to learn the way the culture works in different countries so that later on as businesspeople they can come over and conduct business throughout the world. What has Alberta done? Let me just emphasize what former Premier Lougheed said about six months ago: Albertans need to send students to Japan to study. Where was he for the last 21 years? I don't know. Y ou know, he was looking after the petroleum industry, and education was secondary.

When there's no money now, we have to redo what has been done over the last 20 years. Still he's off base, because it's not Japan that we should be sending students to. It's Japan, but it's also Taiwan, South Korea, South America, different countries. The big companies will tell you: "We are looking for people who can speak the language of certain countries. We are losing thousands of dollars through mistakes." They can get an interpreter, but many times the

interpretation may be different and costly to the countries. They want to work with the Department of Education so we can have students ready to go into these areas. I don't see that in Bill 19. Also, Australia is ahead of us. They had 12,000 exchange students in Japan. We had 300 from all of Canada, not Alberta, all of Canada. We need to focus on that, to look where we're going. Where do we want to go with these amendments to the education Bill by the year 2005, 2010, 2025? The top business companies in Japan have a plan for the next 150 years for where they want their companies to go.

Education: we look at it, and we're r eaching back. We're trying to make up distance that we've lost instead of just where we are and moving ahead. So what we need is to look at what is happening throughout the world. We look at what has happened to university students in Japan too. A couple of years ago we went to P.E.I. with our Japanese family who was here, and we met in P.E.I. a university group from Japan. They went to a private university, and we tried to find out what university they were at. However, they were so ashamed of the private university – the calibre was so low – they wouldn't tell us.

These things we don't hear unless we get into and understand how their culture works. So as we look at our education system, we have an excellent one, but we want to improve on it. We want to know where we're going in the next 10, 15, 20, 35 years. We want to make sure that our children and our children's children have the same opportunities that we have had. I look at Taiwan. When I went there in 1970, we saw many of the students working in the museum in Taipei. We asked: what were they trained in at university? They were town planners, engineers.

We said, "Well, when are you going to work in the area that you studied in?" They said, "We will." I said, "Well, when will you do it?" They said, "When we take over China." I was hard pressed to believe they still thought that way, but they have taken that situation from where they were and become one of the leading economic nations in this world. That's what we have to learn: how do they do it? We must also work together to come to that area. We look at Hong Kong. We look at form 6, the equivalent to our high school, and they are slightly ahead of us.

However, we must remember that in Hong Kong only 2 percent of their students went to university. Two percent. In Canada I think it was 15 or so at that time. Now they've built another university, so it may be up to 4 or 5 percent. We can make generalized statements, but the department that has the largest research budget needs to tie these things together to see what the facts are, to separate, and not give us information maybe like the studies they did on the ECS and kindergarten to support the way Bill 19 is cutting out half of the kindergartens.

Also in business – we need to include business, very important in the education system. In the United States the armed forces service industry, the big industrialists involved in this are now working with K to 12 schools to assist, to prepare them for the future. We need to involve business. Just a few comments from business on what's happening and how this education Bill does apply to it. Maybe there will be regulations that'll fit in. I hope so, but I haven't seen any regulations, so I don't know. They're from an economic restructuring conference in Jasper, October of last year.

Some of the comments: "Virtually all of our new jobs this year have been part-time jobs." How is the education system dealing with this, contract jobs, part-time jobs? What else can we do to assist and maybe make more full-time jobs? Another comment: "We must develop our human capital – our skills and capacity for innovation – if we are to remain resource-rich and not become resource-poor." What are the innovations? What are the creative things we're doing in Bill 19 that are going to move us into the 21st century to keep us competitive and make us more competitive in the world? I don't see that in Bill 19.

Maybe they'll come out in the regulations. Another comment: "First and foremost, change must be grounded in principle, not in ideology but in principle." So as we look at what's happening economically and happening educationally, we have to make sure it's done on sound principle. 3:30 Another comment made: "Business, in partnership with government and educators, develop a common research data base of research projects so information can be shared and commercial application realized." A sharing of information, government working with business – have business pay for it. Everyone benefits from this.

We need to do this. Working with educators: for years as an educator I always worked with the chamber of commerce to see what was needed in business, how the school system, the education system, could be flexible to do things that would help meet the needs of our students and help them go into business without a large amount of extra training; through the junior achievement program spent many hours, many years in fact, working and discussing ways.

One of the best courses that our students took to get us in tune with business wasn't in the school; it was through junior achievement where they formed their own company, produced a product, marketed the product, managed their own business, and then after 20 weeks they sold their company. Y ou know, companies took these students when they saw on their résumé that they had a junior achievement background. They would get jobs ahead of others who did not.

T h i s i s w h a t w e m u s t b e d o ing: working with businesses, working at all levels from kindergarten right up to university and into the colleges and so on. Next, "job readiness should be taught in the education system with regards to skills and competitive attitudes." They need to know: what is the competition out there; what are the attitudes around the world that we need to have to be su ccessful? As we look at this, Mr. Speaker, we know that we have to move ahead. We cannot just go with the status quo. Again, sustainable change

May 2, 1994 Alberta Hansard 1589 should be based on data-based decisions, not guesswork or ideology. This is what we need in the education Bill. We look forward to making some amendments that perhaps will assist in this. As we also looked at the fiscal plan of our schools, Mr. Speaker, I did ask the minister some questions, and he responded. I thank him for these. Currently 1,121 of our 1,500 schools have debentures. Now, this to me was one of the biggest mistakes that has been made. When you do debentures, you pay for something three or four times, instead of paying cash as needed.

This should have happened; we had the good years when it should have happened. We had the heritage fund that could have provided for this. Instead, we taxed Albertans two or three or four times as much as they should have been. Now they're saying that the idea of paying cash for future school projects rather than debenture borrowing is being considered. I trust they will do more than consider it. I trust they will put it into practise to show that they are becoming more fiscally responsible than in the past. Again, total indebtedness is approximately $3 billion you spent instead of paying cash as you went.

That's the theory of a socialist: to spend and spend and pay more interest and more taxes and cost the taxpayer more money. Then they say they know all about business. [Mr. Bracko's speaking time expired] No. I need more time, Mr. Speaker. I just got a quarter way through. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Fort McMurray. MR. GERMAIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I regret that I could not devote some of my time on this important Bill to my friend from St. Albert, who was obviously passionate about the issue of school legislation in the province of Alberta.

He has done a wonderful job, and it will be difficult for me to follow, but follow I must. I regret that I have only 20 minutes as well to debate this most profound legislation that will affect all Albertans for all time.

It is, in fact, symbolic that this Bill 19 is both the largest in volume that we have tabled in this Assembly in the short time I have been here; it is the most volumetric as well in the profound changes that it wishes to do. [interjection] I noticed as well that the Minister of Municipal Affairs wants to engage in this debate, and I wish and hope that he will have the courage to stand up at the appropriate time and take his 20 minutes as well. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Just for the hon. member's information, the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs has already contributed to second reading. MR.

GERMAIN: Then I do hope he will allow me the courtesy to make my contribution. I want to make seven points, Mr. Speaker, in connection with Bill 19, in the overview of the Bill. I recognize that there will be many times to debate the individual items on this particular piece of legislation. I want to reach out and I want to speak and I want to ask hypothetically today: who will be the 10 members from the government side that have the courage to vote against this legislation? Who will be the 10 people on that side that stand up and support public education in this provin ce?

Who will be the 10 members on that side that will stand up and say that they stand with Roman Catholics to protect a right that they feel is important to them? Who will the 10 people of courage be? Will it be the Member for Calgary-Varsity? We can only hope so. Will it be the Member for Calgary-Shaw? We can only hope so. Will it be the Member for Calgary-Cross? We can only hope so. Now I return to the points I wanted to make about the Bill.

I want to talk about the first portion of the Bill that many Albertans find odious, and that is the centralized tax grab from rural Alberta, sucking all of that money into a central depot to be given out at the whim or at the will of the government. Now, I want to tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that the people who toil in the 40 below weather in the Syncrude plant in northern Alberta, struggling in the darkness, struggling in the cold, struggling with the tar sand that is barely movable in those temperatures, they did not create a facility there to have the tax money go into a central organiza- tion and at the will of the government to leech back into their community.

On the tax issue in Fort McMurray, I can tell you that alone among the communities in this pr ovince Fort McMurray has the highest education taxes of any community, and this in spite of the fact that they rely heavily on a machinery and equipment tax segment that the government is also purporting to interfere with. Now, when you have that situation, you say: is it because of wasteful school boards, or is it because of a high cost of living in a hostile environment and a rapid population growth during a boom that required a high capital structure?

When you analyze the circumstances, you find that that is why the tax allocations in Fort McMurray are high, and that is why the funding is needed for education of Fort McMurray students. Surely those people who work in the frigid north, in the darkness and in the cold, are entitled to speak up personally and speak up through their elected member of this Assembly to preserve the independence of taxation in the province of Alberta. In addition, Mr.

Speaker, I want to say that to the extent that taxation rights are synonymous and integrated to constitutional rights of freedom of religion, there is an issue there that has to be dealt with that the government despite their efforts cannot stickhandle around. Who over there are the 10 people with courage who will speak up for Catholics? Who will speak up for them? I want to move on from the taxation issue and talk about the issue of loss of board control.

Prominent in that particular issue, of course, is the taxation, but buried in that are the sections of this particular Act that would take away from the board the fundamen- tal right to hire and fire and control their key executive, the superintendent of their schools. Now, the Premier in his infinite wisdom said to Albertans after he had listened to them: I will change things so that you do not lose control over your superin- tendent.

Nobody in the province of Alberta – no Roman Catholic in the province of Alberta, no separate school board in the province of Alberta – could ever assume that they have control over their superintendent when he must report directly to the Minister of Education and his unelected entourage of civil servants and be fired by that unelected group as well on recommendation to the minister. Who in this province would ever identify that as being independence to hire your own key executive? Nobody, Mr. Speaker. Nobody in the province of Alberta will come to that conclusion.

I hope there are 10 people with courage over there that likewise do not come to that conclusion. [interjections] 3:40 I can see that there will be much useful debate following now, as I have awakened some of the interest and some of the desire to speak up for education on the other side. I want to move on, Mr. Speaker, to talk about the other concern with this particular legislation. It may indeed be the hon. Member for Red Deer- South that speaks up for education. Who is to know where the 10 with courage will be found?

1590 Alberta Hansard May 2, 1994 I want to talk about the vagueness of this legislation from the point of view of government by regulation. We have seen a profound shifting of the attitude of this particular government away from laying it out pure and simple. The Treasurer in his infinite wisdom always talks about that he's going to lay every- thing out and everybody is going to see it all and debate it all and learn it all and hear it all. What we have in this particular legislation, Mr. Speaker, is legislation by regulation.

The school boards tell us, the public school trustees tell us, the Catholic school trustees tell us, educators across the width and breadth of this province tell us that it is very hard to catch this School Act. Even though it is a big, bulky piece of legislation, it is very hard to throw a lasso around it because it is vague: vague by legisla- tion, by regulation. In the back rooms of government echelons we're going to have government by regulation on something as important as schooling and education in the province of Alberta.

I want to point out that that is of serious concern to all Members of the Legislative Assembly, and it ought to be of concern. There ought to be 10 people over there with courage that will speak against this legislation at the right time, vote against this legislation, indeed kill it at the vote on second reading so that we do not have to get into the hours and hours and hours and hours of debate as the Official Opposition struggles mightily against overwhelming odds to bring balance back to this particular School Act.

We could kill this Act right now in second reading, and we could send a message to all Albertans that we do not lightly walk, trample, and stomp on educational principles in the province of Alberta. I move on to other issues that are of concern in this particular legislation, and that is the issue of the multiplicity and complexity of the tax system that is being proposed and created. Now, the government had a bit of a problem, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr. Speaker: I'm sorry. The problem was not anything to do with education. Speaker's Ruling Decorum MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The hon. member's comment is taken in good spirit, but it has moved the Chair to say that whenever anybody is in this Chair, it is the Speaker. It is not the Deputy Speaker or the Deputy Chairman of Committees. It is the Speaker, whoever is the occupant of the Chair. The hon. member. MR. GERMAIN: Y es. I got so worked up about the School Act that I overlooked the niceties of the Assembly, Mr. Speaker.

I thank you for bringing me back to the niceties of the Assembly as I debate this most important pi ece of legislation, Bill 19, the School Act, the largest and most profound piece of legislation that we've had tabled here in the short time that I've been an MLA representing those good folks of Fort McMurray, who had the courage to vote for change and to send me to this Legislative Assembly. I look forward to the government members coming to Fort McMurray. I always enjoy having government members in Fort McMurray. MRS. BLACK: Do you want me to come? MR. GERMAIN: Y es, certainly.

The Minister of Energy diverts me and wants to know if she should come to Fort McMurray. This minister is always welcome in Fort McMurray. She referred to the oil sands as the jewel of the Alberta energy program. Frankly and with respect, up there in Fort McMurray we agree. Debate Continued MR. GERMAIN: I return to the School Act now. The govern- ment has created, Mr. Speaker, yet a third form of taxation: taxation by plebiscite. Now, if we study the history of the tax problems that the government faced in the province of Alberta as it related to schools, we see that they had about a $50 million problem.

That problem was to correct the underfunding for those school boards that geographically were located in areas where they did not have a wide enough machinery and equipment base, oil sands base, development base, and residential base to properly fund schools in Alberta. For that $50 million problem we've got Bill 19 that will completely dismantle education in the province as we know it. There are many people who suggest that this is a good system. Why, you know, just the other day the hon.

Deputy Premier was defending the Alberta educational system as being one of the best in the world, and there are many that agree with that submission. One has to wonder why we would dismantle an educational system that has served Albertans so well for a $50 million problem. Point of Order Questioning a Member MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Shaw is rising on a point of order. MR. HA VELOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was just wondering if the hon. Member for Fort McMurray would entertain a question during debate. MR.

GERMAIN: Only if the House will give me unanimous approval to take the question after my 20 minutes are up, because this is such an important debate that I do not want to erode my time. MR. SPEAKER: Y ou'll have to check at that time, hon. member. MRS. McCLELLAN: Y ou've wasted quite a bit anyway. MR. GERMAIN: Y eah. Well, we'll see. We'll see about time management as we get into the details of the School Act, Mr. Speaker. MR. MITCHELL: Y ou've got lots of time. MR. GERMAIN: We have lots of time, other members tell me. Debate Continued MR.

GERMAIN: The plebiscite on taxation proposed by educational systems to raise some of their funding creates yet another machinery of taxation in the province of Alberta that is not warranted. If you're going to have a plebiscite to raise 3 percent of your funding, why not just make your levy, raise your funding, take the government portion the way it has always been, and get on with the business of educating children in Alberta?

Why create yet another machinery to allow school boards to go dip a little bit in the pot so that now we have the government collecting all the tax, the government deciding what's fair and equitable and sending it back? We have no indication in this Bill how the government will determine what fair and equitable is. For high-cost areas like Fort McMurray one of the concerns is that they might just simply use the word "equal." Well, equal, Mr. Speaker, does not mean equitable, and it is equitable funding that Albertans want to see. And it is adequate funding that

May 2, 1994 Alberta Hansard 1591 Albertans want to see for education, not this little plebiscite here and a plebiscite there and collect 3 percent here and some from the government and top-up money from the government. That seems, with respect to the draftsmen of this Bill, to be a complex- ity that was not needed or warranted. One has to wonder about an imagination that would create that type of system. Other issues have been touched on, and I want to continue the debate on those issues. One of them that I want to touch on is the issue of forced amalgamations.

We recognize that in the province of Alberta there may have been over the passage of time the creation of too many school boards. Most of the creation of these rural boards was done for various political reasons that had no merit beyond the politics of the day. Well, okay; let's strive to streamline the amalgamation process and allow school boards to amalgamate. They have already been doing that. There are histories of boards amalgamating and solving their mutual problems by coming together. There is nothing wrong with a negotiated and an encouraged and an enthusiastically arrived at amalgamation.

If the government in its infinite wisdom is prepared to say that 60 school boards should govern all of the children in the province of Alberta, that is a recipe for disaster, because what that recipe means is that they will be spread awfully thin in many cases and in many areas of the province, and it will be an open opportunity for the Minister of Education and the department and the government officials to go in and run educa- tion and extract that from the elected boards that are supposed to be representing students, teachers, and the communities alike in these issues.

There are other difficulties with this particular Bill, Mr. Speaker. The one difficulty, of course, is the school councils and the relationship that principals will have to school councils. Well, I must tell you that I recognize in my own case, growing up as a poor boy in a poor area of a major urban city, that without education what little I've accomplis hed in life would have been much less.

So I owe a debt of gratitude to the educators and to the education system that we have evolved in Canada, and I intend to speak up ferociously and forcefully in this Legislative Assembly and everywhere else that I'm asked to speak on the educational issues that are so prominent in this Bill which amends the School Act. 3:50 I also know from watching my father go and participate in what was then the home and school associations – and now it may have other names and other vocabularies attached to it – that these are for the most

part concerned parents who like to give advice to their principal and to their elected board officials, but they do not particularly want to take on a greater role in school administra- tion. This particular legislation mandates them to. It says: you shall. Well, what if the hard working family of three children enjoying a school system wants to go and give constructive criticism but they don't want to be part of a political machinery, a school council? We have mandated now by decree that there will be enforced volunteerism in the schools.

We have set that up so that it is in some fashion a liaison between the school boards, which have now lost some power, and the school councils, which have gained some power, and the principal. We don't know what his role is going to be in connection with the school council. Will he be the chairman of it? Will he be a resource person? Will he be an advisor? We do know that the school council may be able to order him around. The school board will be able to order him around.

The Minister of Education by virtue of the mandate of having the ability to fire that man will be able to order him around, and so this school council concept also does not fit well in this particular School Act. Mr. Speaker, all of us on June 15, whatever party we represent, were elected to come here for a purpose. What we were elected to come here to do was to try and represent our constituents and try and do right by Alberta.

Not one of us knocked on the door and said, "I will be stifled by superior dictates." Not one of us when we knocked on the door said, "I will not speak up for things that I think are wrong with education or with health care." Focusing only on education, who was it of this group that knocked at the door that might have high and strong beliefs that the Roman Catholics, for example, should not have the right to collect taxes? Who knocked on the door and said: "I will stand up at the right time and vote for the loss of your autonomy.

I will stand up and vote for the loss of your constitutional rights." I said earlier when I started my comments, Mr. Speaker, that I was looking for 10 people of courage. This particular Bill is not a good Bill. This particular Bill is a flawed Bill. If you vote against Bill 19, the sky will not fall. I suspect that you will not even be punished, b ecause the government will recognize the importance of free and wide-ranging debate on this Bill. If you vote against this Bill, you will be standing up for education in the province of Alberta. Y ou will be standing up for your constitu- ents.

Now, what will happen – I do not want to unduly alarm you – if you vote against this Bill? If the hon. Member for Three Hills- Airdrie stands up and votes against this Bill, what will happen is that the government will have to find the $50 million for the underfunded schools. But the government then has a wonderful opportunity to allow the educators of the province of Alberta to solve the funding issue that grips Alberta at this time. We do not need all of this camouflage, all of this particular rhetoric on charter schools, on school councils, on loss of hiring of the superintendents.

If the government's mandate on their elected basis was to balance the budget, they have a wonderful opportu- nity to do so now simply by voting against Bill 19. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. MR. DICKSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I'm delighted to have the opportunity to join the debate at second reading on Bill 19. As the previous speaker indicated, the hon.

Member for Fort McMurray, this perhaps is not only the most significant Bill we will deal with in this session but indeed perhaps the most significant Bill we will deal with between now and the time of the next general election. I think when we look at Bill 19, Mr. Speaker, we see it's going to change financing of education. It's going to change the structure of public education. It does that in far-reaching and fundamental ways. I've talked to a great number of Albertans, as I think every member in this Assembly has, about concerns in terms of education.

Many of those Albertans I've spoken to, particularly in Calgary, have expressed alarm and concern at where this government is going in terms of education. I've told those people that I share their concern, of course, with the Bill but I take some measure of comfort. When they ask what I could possibly take comfort from given the pronouncements by the hon. Minister of Education, the Premier, and so on, I tell them it's because I know that members in the government caucus share my concern for the future of public education.

Y ou know, I think of the Member for Calgary-Bow, who in fact taught my daughter in elementary school. I know there can't be a more committed professional educator than that member. I look at the Member for Calgary-Currie, who has been at numerous forums with me in Calgary-Buffalo. It's always a treat to have that member attend

1592 Alberta Hansard May 2, 1994 these sessions in Calgary-Buffalo. I know her commitment through long and distinguished service on the Calgary Catholic board. My friend from Calgary-Shaw I know comes with a background and a history in public education. Point of Order Repetition MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Medicine Hat is rising on a point of order. MR. RENNER: Y es. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise under Standing Order 23(c), needless repetition.

First the Fort McMurray member went through the entire caucus reminding us all which constituencies we came from; now the Member for Calgary-Buffalo is doing exactly the same thing. I think we have better things to do in this Hous e than have him introduce us to everyone else in our caucus. MR. DICKSON: Well, two points, Mr. Speaker. The first one: I had no intention of introducing that member. The second point: I've always apprehended that that rule related to a speaker within the course of his or her 20-minute presentation being unduly repetitive.

Of course, if I see some excellent points made by another member, I would hope I'd have full latitude to be able to follow up and repeat in fact some nuggets that I thought were worthy of special attention. MR. SPEAKER: Well, the Chair wouldn't encourage the hon. member to repeat other members; that would be repetition. But the Chair really didn't find what the hon. Member for Calgary- Buffalo was saying to be repetitious of what Fort McMurray had been saying. The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Debate Continued MR. DICKSON: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker.

In any event, what I was trying to give all members was a sense of my re- sponse. The reason I take some measure of comfort, not perhaps a huge degree of comfort but some measure of comfort, is that although Bill 19 appears to dismantle public education as we know it in this province, my hope is that when it comes time to vote on this second reading, those members I've referred to and other members who understand how important public education is will do what I suggest public education requires; that is, vote against Bill 19.

Y ou know, there's a lot of talk in debate – and we've heard much of it – about macrosystems. We talk about school financ- ing. We talk about those big issues. Mr. Speaker, I prefer to approach this from a much simpler perspective. I guess I'm interested in what the impact is going to be on the children in Calgary-Buffalo. I'm interested in what the impact is going to be on the children in other parts of this province.

Whether it's the little boy who attends a community school in my constituency – he comes from a single-parent family; his mother is a cocaine addict and a prostitute – whether it's a 12-year-old child finishing elementary school, I think what we want to know is: what's the impact on those children?

If we have a student who's starting grade 10 at Western Canada high school, what I want to know is: what kind of a future is that child going to have in terms of finishing high school and proceeding through high school? 4:00 There's a teacher at Western Canada high school who has been singled out for one of the excellence in teaching awards. This teacher, in fact, is one of the finalists. I w onder, Mr.

Speaker, when we deal with a Bill like this, what kind of impact this legislation will have on professional educators like that, like the Member for Calgary-Bow, people who have committed very large portions of their working life to educating our children. That's important. Y ou know, I will turn the corner for a moment and address one of the concerns I have with Bill 19. This isn't the first time I've suggested in this Legislature that we are having government by regulation, but I have to raise this issue one more time, Mr. Speaker.

If we look at this Bill, when we look at the sections that delegate to regulatory authorities –

section 7,

section 8,

section 1 1,

section 12,

section 13,

section 16,

section 18,

section 22,

section 24,

section 51,

section 55 – we don't find answers. We don't find assurances for Albertans that are concerned about the future of public education. All we see is: yet to come, still under construction, still under work, and an invitation by the govern- ment to take us in faith; trust us. Well, what's at stake here is fundamentally too important to simply entrust it to regulatory authorities. I remind members of two things. We have a Standing Commit- tee on Law and Regulations that hasn't met for a long time. That's the first problem.

The second one is that we do not do in Alberta as the federal government does, which is actually publish regulations in draft form in advance. We should do that. Let me address the question of finance, because that's certainly one of the key parts of Bill 19. The concern here that I have and many Albertans have is the plan to centralize the supplementary levy. In effect what we have, Mr. Speaker, is a $1.23 billion grab to solve a $30 mi llion problem.

We can quibble over whether the amount necessary to achieve fair school equalization may be a little more, may be a little less than $30 million, but it's nowhere close to $1.23 billion. There is no guarantee this government can give Albertans that is credible that the funds which are committed through the supplementary levy are in fact going to be dedicated to education and that the community that generates those funds will see the funds being reinvested. [Mr. Deputy Speaker in the Chair] Mr.

Speaker, there is a book that I found very useful, authored by a gentleman named Tim Sale, which is entitled An Analysis of School Funding across Canada. What Mr. Sale does is he goes through and he looks at the funding models in every jurisdiction in Canada. I commend the book to members, because it's a good analysis.

One of the things that Professor Sale identifies at page 177 is, and I quote: Radical changes in the funding of education are not required to elicit and support greater parental involvement or choice, better tracking of students and their achievement levels or the use of more effective learning strategies. What are required are political w ill to place these issues squarely on the public agenda, and careful research to ascertain which are worthy of adoption. Mr.

Speaker, I understand that we already have in Canada a very broad range, that we have a lot of variation in this country in terms of levels of dependence on property taxation. I under- stand that in Ontario, Manitoba, and Nova Scotia there's a minimum property taxation level, which really amounts to a provincial levy. In P.E.I. and New Brunswick property taxes are provincially levied. So the issue is: how does this particular restructuring proposal in Bill 19 represent an improvement on the system we have?

When I say an improvement, members, it's not an improvement for the mandarins, it's not an improvement for the people in the Department of Education, it's not an improvement for superinten-

May 2, 1994 Alberta Hansard 1593 dents and school principals, but does it represent an improvement to the children of this province, our children, the children of Albertans? That's the issue we have to address, and that's the issue we'd have to be able to address in the affirmative before I or any other member would be able to say, yes, I could support this Bill at second reading. Well, I'm not there, Mr. Speaker, and I can't be there because the principles set out in here I'm satisfied are going to undermine the public education system that we now have, are going to jeopardize the education for those children.

Y ou know, Mr. Speaker, I wish this province spent a fraction of the amount of energy that we're now expending, expended by the deputy minister and the government, on fiscal reform. If we could spend just a fraction of that energy determining why we have in Alberta perhaps the lowest graduation rate in Canada for 15 to 19 year olds, lower than Newfoundland, P.E.I., and New Brunswick, isn't that what would be a more important consider- ation and perhaps a more useful consideration for the children of this province? Mr. Speaker, I have a number of Catholic schools in my constituency.

I've had the opportunity to meet with the members of the board of the Calgary school board. I've had a chance to meet with educators and parents at town hall meetings, forums, meetings in my office. The point that is made by those parents and educators and board members time after time after time is that we have in the Calgary Catholic school system a system that has been fiscally responsive, and I think nobody can challenge that. We have a system there that has been innovative, that has been creative, that provides an absolutely top-notch quality of education to children in that system.

That's what I'm told, and I've had it confirmed by independent sources. The proposal to require Catholic boards to give up an unde- clared portion of corporate and residential taxes is just clearly unacceptable, Mr. Speaker. Twenty-seven million dollars, or 40 percent, of the tax revenues would have to be surrendered just to exercise their right to levy their own taxes, a right that's been guaranteed and reinforced since 1901 in the North-West Territo- ries Ordinance. Y ou know, I remember when the Member for Calgary-Currie and I went to St.

Mary's high school, and we spoke to a group of parents and educators as well. At that time the Member for Calgary-Currie said that, you know – and I'm paraphrasing here – she had a lot of work to do; she was going to talk to the Minister of Education; she was going to talk to her caucus colleagues because there wasn't a clear understanding of the constitutional right that Catholics have in this province. Well, I'm interested to know how successful she was with her colleagues.

I'm going to be watching when it comes time for a vote on this to determine whether that member was successful in persuading her members that Bill 19 doe