Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 40B (30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-40b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSE MBL Y of MANI TO BA Friday, April 15, 1977 TIME: 2:30 p.m. CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SU PPLY ESTIMATES- PUBLIC WO RKS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital}: Order please. We have a quorum gentlem en. The committee will come to order. I refer the attention of honourable memb ers to Page 52 in their Estimates Book. The Department of Public Works. Resolution 10 2- Gimli Ind ustrial Park (

b) Other Expendi tur es. The Honour able Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: I bel ieve, Mr. Chairman, when we broke off prior to the noon hour , I was about to ask the Honour able Minister about the Mossport Park vehicle race track and how often it is used and if he would comment on it and that was the time that he was called away to the te lephone. Perhaps the Minister might comment at this time. MR. DOERN: The Mossport is Toronto; our s is Motorspor t which is similar.

We have a leasing arrangement with the Winnipeg circuit management - is that the name of the outfit? - and it is at their di scretion as to how many meets they have. MR. STEEN: How often, Mr. Minister, would it be used on average in the sum mer, once a month or .. ? MR. DOERN: Say in the last few years? MR. STEEN: Is it a once-a-month proposition or weekly? MR. DOERN: Th ree to five races per year. Major races. There's probably many events but I gue ss these are public events that are publ icized and attended . MR.

STEEN: The Gr af-Tech Publications, commercial printing and technical publ ications, is that a governme nt printing firm or is that a privately oper ated printing firm? MR. DOERN: These are apparently ex-Saunders employees who formed the ir own commerci al printing and tech nical operation and there are 17 fu ll-time empl oyees. They are not all Saunders but I gu ess the majority. MR. STEEN: Yes, but it's a privately owned function today.

The Flying School - lnterlake Aviation Flying School - is that just a small flying school that has a few persons in the area that are taking flying lessons or is it a fairly good size? MR. DOERN: Apparently busi ness is picking up for them and they are doing fairly well but it is only one person fu ll-time. lt is more of a club than a commercial operation. MR. STEEN: Jumpin g down the list a few to the Leocraft Indus tries, a manufacturer of recreat ional veh icles. What in the way of recrea tional vehicles does this particular firm manufacture? MR.

DOERN: They manufacture recrea tion veh icles, motor homes, trailers, etc., 59 fu ll-time staff. it's a very big oper ation. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the Public Insurance Corporation Autopac Claims Office, there is one in Sel kirk, Manitoba which has been est ablished recently. Wou ld this be just like a one-man operation as a sub-branch from Se lkirk? MR. DOERN: This is a once-a-week operation. it's a claims office and ther e are two part-time employees. MR. STEEN: Can the Minister te ll us whether the prefab home, Misawa Homes, is still operating at the Gimli Park and what would their size be? MR.

DOERN: There are seven fu ll-time staff and I am not too familiar with whether they are actually manufacturing or shipping. I don' t know whether there is any production going on yet or whether it is of a minor nature but they are cert ainly shipping and I gu ess that's about ali i can say. MR. STEEN: Can the Minister tel l us what the term of their lease is with the Ind ustrial Park? MR. DOERN: lt is a one-year lease which expi res at the end of the year. MR. STEEN: In the list of tenants, there is Saund ers Aircraft Corporati on.

Can the Minister te ll us how much of the Saund ers is still in operation at the Ind ustrial Park? MR. DOERN: This is, in technical jargon, product support and ther e are ele ven emp loyees full time. MR. STEEN: And are they on a lease basis? MR. DOERN: They occupy one-and -a-half hangars I think they had a couple before, that's three, they're down to one-and -a-half. Their lease has exp ired , but they are on a month-to-month lease, which is still a lease. MR. STEEN: Can the Minister te ll us what their rental rate is? MR. DOERN: it's the same as our other leases.

I think it is 50 cents a square foot, plus they pay, I think, heat and light, etc., MR. STEEN: Their utilities themselves. MR. DOERN: We intend to increase the cost of the basic rent star ting next year. MR. STEEN: Mr . Chairman, to the Minister. In this particular case, the Saunders Aircraft 1953

Friday, April 15, 1977 Corporation, are the Saunders people paying the rate or is the Manitoba Deve lopment Fund paying the rent. MR. DOERN: We ll, I think the finer det ails I won't be able to answer, but we deal with Saunders Aircraft and they, in fact, owe us rent. But because of the fine record of the people who are beh ind them we take them on faith because we know that it will be paid. MR. STEEN: Mr. Minister, are you saying then if the Saunders Aircraft Corpor ation were to defau lt on their payment then the department cou ld collect it from the Manitoba Dev elopment Corporation? MR.

DOERN: We would have the same position as any other secured creditor. I don' t know who else is in line but you know, we know we'll get the money. MR. STEEN: Can the Minister give us the exact amount they are in arrears? MR. DOERN: $1 50,000.00. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, that's all the questions I have for the time being. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Mem ber for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: Wel l, my concern would be the housing aspect of the Gimli Ind ustrial Park. But fi rst of all I'd like to ask the Minister, and I hope these questions haven't been answered. Last year, in a newspaper

article on March 19, the Minister projected . the deficit would be $81 0,000 for the coming year and that the 19 75-1 976 deficit had been around $200,000.00. Was the Minister correct in his crystal-balling or did he under state or ove rstate the deficit? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. MR. DOERN: I think we'll have to dig that out, go back to it perhaps. MR.

WILSON: The next aspect is: I asked the Minister a question in the House pert aining to the shortage of housing in Winnipeg, especi ally for families on social assistance, hand icapped, the sick and elderly, and Minister quoted to me at that time that approximately 50 percent ofthe housing units were vacant. I was wondering has this vacancy been caused by the fact - you sugg ested to me that you have increased the rent. Cou ld you give me a breakdown of the rents' say six months ago and what they are today? MR. DOERN: I th ink it's quite cle ar that the reason for the vacancy is the wind-down of Saunders.

That is the reason. The rents are the same. MR. WILSON: Is the Minister te lling me that in the last six months there's been no increase in rent? MR. DOERN: That's right. MR. WILSON: Would the Minister care to give me an example of a two or three -bedroom unit, what type of rent. Does it include the light? Does it include the heat? Does it include the water? Or are they all separate metered?

Last year the Minister prom ised me he was going to look at the idea of metering them because of the fact of sug gested statements on my part that had been repo rted to me that because the tenants did not have to pay for the heat, they were leaving the door s and windows open in the winter months; because they di dn' t have to pay for the lights, they were leaving the lights on all nightand because they di dn 't have to pay for the water ... they were a very interes ting group of ten ants. MR. DOERN: Did they draw thei r shades? MR.

WILSON: We ll the question I am asking is, could the Minister give us some ind ication , because after all, we don' t mind supporting people if they are the needy but we can't see supporting people ifthey are paying a sub sid ized rent. The rest of the taxpayers in Manitoba are subsid izing their rent. In other words, if a three- bedroom apartment is going for $13 5 and in the Town of Gimli it's renting for $225 then obviously you'r e competing with the housing market in the Town of Gimli and you're also, you know, giving out accommodation at a questionable low rent.

If these people don' t work for the govern ment, or even if they do, has this been a union negoti ated situation, or what? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I would provide as food for thought the following points of information. Down the highway are a numb er of large apartment blocks the Federal Government has paid for, and I think they've been vacant for what, ten years? -(I nterjecti on)- Sel ling them as condom iniums. We ll, let's just say that regard less of their success, for years they have been vacant, which to me is a crying shame and scandalous.

In our case, we want to be able to lease these facilities. What's the alternative? The altern ative is to leave them em pty, so we try to provide what is a reasonably attractive rate, I gu ess bearing in mind the real estate market in Gimli, and also within the AIB gui delin es. Let's take the rates. You wanted an example, I'll give you an example. A two-bed room rents at $1 35.00 a month, three- bedroom $1 48.50. This includ es Utilities. A four-bedroom is $1 65.00 and a five-bedroom is $21 4.00.

So the rates are attractive, but at the same time, as attractive as they are, they are half em pty. 1 don' t know if you've ever seen any of these units. I stayed in one last year when we had a Public Works conferen ce there for a couple of days. We had an annual conference there. They're nice, they're clean, etc., et c., but I don't know if they're well insulated , not insulated at all, and it's not 19 77 Winnipeg standards of construc tion. They are comparable, I suppose, to the dorm itories, namely 1954

Friday, April 15, 1977 that they were bu ilt du ring wartime, etc., they're older. I don' t know how many women would be th rilled about living there. I think many women would be satisfied , but if someone is used to looking at these love ly de ve lopment s in Winnipeg, they would find this a far cry from that. MR. WILSON: We ll, this government is always famous for tur ning the tables on the Fed eral Government, sort of like the pot calling the kettle black.

We have a situation her e where the Minister, on one hand, holds a sem inar to talk about heat conservat ion and every thing, and then, under his same department, he's renting out homes that aren't insulated and then having the taxpayers of Manitoba paying for the heat. I alluded to problems that I think arise when you do have the tenants having the util ities all-inclusive. I don' t think that is a wise policy and it shou ld be looked at.

Furthermore' as I say, I can't for the life of me und erst and , when the City of Winnipeg is failing to condemn some terraces and that because of the unbel ievable housing shortage and the lack of dwel ling for native families and, as I said, sick and hand icapped people, I can't see why these units are not made available for people on social assistance if there is that dr astic housing shortage. I think the Mem ber for Giml i shou ld answer the charge as to, would his constituency welcome people in that area to help fill up these units, or what is the story pert aining to them if there is thattype of vacancy.

The second thing is, dur ing the summer months, you can very seldom acquire accommodation if you want to go up there, most of the motel s are filled . Why doesn't the Minister look at - ther e is one area probably that would pay for itself, un like the one down the road called Hecla Island that's going to cost about $9 mi llion. I think the Minister has to project to us here at this committee what he intends or what he envisions the futur e of this complex. Is it going to be condemned, is it going to be upgr aded? In other words, we've got to have some idea in this committee where we're going with these units.

MR. DOE: The honour able member says that he finds my criticism of the Fed eral Government a case of the pot calling the kettle black, but he's privi leged to be neither a pot nor a kett le, so he can condemn both of us. He has that privilege. We have installed metering in these units for electricity and heat, and we will at some point in the near futur e, cut in with the met ering, so that should satisfy the honourable mem ber. We have also a new firm that's on the verge of coming into the ind ustrial park.

They are waiting for final approval of a DREE Gr ant and if and when they come, we expect them to come, they will have 75 staff, and we expect that a good ly numb er of them will then occupy these particular units. The other point I make to the Member for Wo lseley, counter to the same point that I made to him in the House, and that is, that it's all ver y well to say that there are people in Winnipeg who need certa in housing, etc., etc., but these homes are in Giml i.

And I don' t know whether people who live in Winnipeg and maybe like Winnipeg and perhaps have rel atives in Winnipeg , whether they be on we lfare or whether it's thei r own money, want to move 60 miles out of Winnipeg so that they can commute. Some mightthink it very fine, but people live in communities for a variety of reasons. We all know that ther e are parts of the countr y and there are parts of the province where jobs are available. I suppose peop l e can go and work in the mines in northern Man itoba but ther e are people who won't go.

We cert ainl y can't run a shuttle service between Winnipeg and the ind ustrial park. So I think that we have been very successful. We suffered a setback in terms of our operation because of Saunders, but I think it's picking up again and with a little bit of luck, we may again approach full occupancy.

MR.WILSON: Then I can have the assurance of the Minister that once new ind ustry comes to Gimli under the hel p of a DREE Gr ant or whatever, and that the units are again 80 to 90 percent full, that we can look at turn ing that comple x into a viab le one by having competitive and realistic rates in light of the fact that costs have gone up. Cert ainly to have a zero rent gr owth is not very encoura ging. The other thoug ht that occurred to me is that we should be looking at some ind ication from the Minister again, are they going to be upgr aded in any way to allow us to demand higher rents?

The other comment is that his government bring s a lot of people in from the north with promises of a Utopia in the City of Winnipeg and a lot of these people would welcome housing I'm sur e. MR. DOERN: I don' t know if I heard all of the comments of the honour able member but I agree with most of what I heard . MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Membe. r for Wo lsel ey. MR. WILSON: The last comment. Because of the transient nature of some of these tenants that were in there, cou ld he give us an ind ication, di d they have any rental rev enue write -offor did you get stuck with any major repair bills from tenants?

MR. DOERN: I think like most land lords, we did get stuck with some, you know, a small percentage which we di dn' t think was too far out of line. I also want to say that on the operation last year, last fiscal year, on a $2 million budget, we were within $5,000 of breaking even. So for all intents and purposes, on the housing, we broke eve n. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 2(b) . The Honou rable Mem ber for Birtle-Russe ll. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr . Chairman, I would like to go back a minute to the $1 50,000 in arrears that Saunders is on their lease.

Cou ld the Minister indic ate how many months that figur e involves? 1955

Friday, April 15, 1977 MR. DOERN: Sixteen months. MR. GRAHAM: Sixteen months. Mr. Chair man , if other agencies were that far in arrears, would the management of the Ind ustrial Park be concerned about collecting their money? MR. DOE RN: A letter was sent by Mr. Dun lop on April 4th asking for the money and we assume that it will be paid . lt's rather em barrassing to sue yourself. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, is that the first letter that has gone out requesting payment of an outstanding account in this particular respect? MR.

DOERN: We ll, ther e has been a general withdrawal as every one knows, the operation is being wound down and we have had general corre spondenc e. This particular letter I think maybe would bring matters to a head . The situation, thou gh, rem ains the same, namel y that they have de clared bankruptcy, ther e is a Receiver and we stand in line with other creditors. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, if some other user of the park gave ind ication of phasing out their oper ation, would the park not take action before 16 months was up to try and rec oup some of the overdue rent? MR.

DOERN: If there was a bankruptcy we'd be in an identical situation. We haven't had any other experience and so ther efore the question is academ ic. MR. GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman, I ask the Minister, is it the policy of the Ind ustrial Park to wait until bankruptcies are declar ed before they press for rentals? MR. DOERN: No. MR. GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman, to get onto another sub ject again, I'd like to go back to the operation of your Aspen Lodge Cafete ria. I would like to ask if that cafete ria has in its operations a liquor license? MR.

DOE RN: No, there is no license, but tor occasional do's, et c., there are occasional permits. So liquor is ser ved when there is a perm it. MR. GRAHAM : it's all done by occasional perm it. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Mem ber for Wolseley . MR. WILSON: Mr .

Chairman, just to finish up what the Mem ber for Birtle -Russe ll was talking about, it would seem to me the Minister might be well advised - because in a bankruptcy the landlord is entitled to three months as a top priority and anything over and above that he then gets down amongst the soap and the di shes and whatever els e bills may be owing, in other words he's an unpreferred creditor.

I wonder ed if the Minister could ind icate to me if he knows if the Minister in charge of Saunder s Aircraft has added that $1 50,000 loss to his statement, because in my election material I want to advise the public how much Saunder s Aircraft has lost, and if somehow or other a $15 0,000 in rental arrears is not be ing shown I'm not giving an accurate figur e and I'm one who doesn't like to be too conser vative. My second

part is, if the cafete ria and the complex are operating at 50 percent occupancy, what has the staff red uction been and has there been any move by the government 's management team to rent out the cafete ria space for weddings, banquets and what-have-you? Is it suit ed for that? MR. DOERN: In the fi rst

part I assume that their financial statement should show their accounts payable or their arrears. We did answer that question earl ier - the second quest ion. There were 10 6 events held there. I'll give you the larger ones: 4 camps, 33 banquets, 8 wedd ings, 6 1u ncheons 4 socials, 14 sem inars, 22 conferences; all kinds of things, teas, workshops; quite successful and quite popular, making money . MR. WILSON: That's all my questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Mem ber for Crescent wood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chair man, to the Minister, we're approving the Estimates for the year ending '78.

We have the figur es for the year end ing '77 - the Estimates. The repor t that we have for his department is for '75-'76. In this, your report on the Gimli Ind ustrial Park, it says that "The park is maintained and oper ated by 58 Department of Public Works staff. The Minister, this morning, said ther e were 74 employees there, but no change. So I would take it that there was no change this year from last year, but a year ago from two years ago ther e was a change from 58 to 74. MR. DOERN: That figur e could have by accident, not included the 20 staff from Aspen Lodge. Let's just check her e a bit. MR.

STEEN: A lot could depend on how one reads this then. lt says, "The Park is maintained and oper ated by 58 Department of Public Works staff. Aspen Lodge, a din ing and banquet facility is oper ated by the Department of Public Works with 19 full time empl o yees." MR. DOERN: That's corr ect. You add those togeth er, and there were th ree transferred out. MR. STEEN: The operational cost of the Gimli Ind ustrial Park appears to be in the neighb ourh ood of $2 million with Salaries and Other Exp endit ures.

Can the Minister te ll us what the gr oss volume at the Ind ustrial Park is with all the rents from all the various agencies. it's costing the department $2 million approximately a year to run what size of a busi ness? MR. DOERN: I wonder if the member could just recap that question. MR. STEEN: If you add the salaries for the employ ees, plus the other expenditur es you're in the 1956

Friday, April 15, 1977 neighbor hood of $2 million. What is the gross amount of business done in the Indust rial Park? What I'm trying to do is get a ratio of what it's costing to run the Indust rial Park in comparison to the volume of business that is done there. MR. DOERN: Are you talking abou t re tail sales by the people who re nt from us, or govern ment expen dit ures and income ? MR. STEEN: I think that the amount of mone y that comes into the depart men t books in the way of re nt and revenue. Is there a way of comparing expend itures to rev enue s? MR. DOE RN: I'd like to correct a st atem ent .

I think we got a couple of figur es mixed up earlier. I made a st atemen t of a $2 million operation and within $5,000, and then I said right after that, on the advice of my Direc tor, that we were within $5,000 of bre aking even and then I added - on the Housing. Okay? I was using two figu res there, one on the total operat ion, one on $5 ,000 in the Hous ing. On the Park's operat ion, the total operation of the Gim li Indust rial Park, and Aspen Lodge and everyt hing, we had a revenue of thirteen forty-five, one million three hundr ed thousand, for ty-five.

Ther e was, in fact, a loss of $692,000 last year, operat ing. MR. STEEN: The revenues of $1 ,345,000, Mr. Minister, those moneys are paid to the Minister of Finance? MR. DOERN: Righ t. MR. STEEN: So, therefore, in your books you don't show an item recoverable, because it's paid dir ectly. All reve nue s are paid to the Minister of Finance. MR. DOERN: Right . MR. STEEN: I see. That's fine then. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Mem ber for Wol seley. MR. WILSON: Wel l, one of my last questions would be possibly just a recap by the Minister.

We talked abou t a loss of $692,000 opera ting, toget her with a $1 50,000 ren t owing by Saund ers Aircraft. This means that the Minister's projections last year of $81 0,000 are, in fact, low. Can the Minister, again he said he was going to get those figur es for me, maybe he did read them into the record , but would it be fair to say that since the Minister took over this depart men tthis particular Giml i Ind ustrial Park has been stead ily, fora number of reasons, not all his, whatever, bu t it's been going down and it's costing the taxpayers more and more money.

Is there any hope for the fu ture, that we can promise the taxpayers of Manitoba that we're not going to continue to pour money into this Indust rial Park. What is this govern men t doing to attract business , attract indust ry, attract people to live there so that we won't ge t int o the situation where we're losing a million do llars a year on an Indust rial Park that cert ainly cou ld be , with incen tives, attracting busine ss, with the help of the Federal Govern men t and their DREE Gr ants.

I know a lot of busine sses that have located in Winnipeg because of this DREE Grant situation and I would like some commen t from the Minister. That's my hope, that we can ge tthe Minister to indicate we're not going to continue to lose a million dol lars a year on this operat ion. MR. DOERN: I suppose the big ace-in-the-hole that we had was the fact that the Federal Govern men t had pu t up a million and a half dol lars as a contribu tion and we have been negot iating, I guess for months, to attempt to get another contribut ion from the Fed eral Governmen t.

I think that they should, that they are morally obl igated to make such a contribu tion to the Ind ustrial Base. So if we're successfu l there of course that will be a major hel p. The $1 50,000 is included in the $692 so it's not $692,000 plus $1 50,000, it's within the $692,000. So, if we're successful at recov ering that, then that will take it down to $540,000. Promotion, et c., we largely leave to Indu stry and Commerce, all their campaigns that they're so adept at, going back to when the Member for River Hei ghts was the Minister and he had the drummer boy theme and all sorts of other fanfare and hoopla.

That sort of specialty is ... Us, we're just a solid low profile depar tmen t. Bu t I'm sur e that Mr. Dun lop get s inquiries and does his little bit of PR and promotion. We have pamphlet s prepared, et c. that are sen t out . The alternative to what we're doing is' of course, to close it up and I think that would be a di saster. I think that, as I say, given some federal support, which I think is required and reasonable, and given some add itional indust ry, I think we will be in a strong position again. I gue ss we've had our ups and downs.

I think we've been quite successf ul in the first few years and I think we're now in a slight downturn , bu t we're hoping to come ou t of that. MR. WILSON: We ll, my only commen t is obvious ly this Minister doe sn't have the communication with Indust ry and Commer ce that migh t be necessary, because I notice there was a very viable padd le company up in Dauphin that the govern men t saw fit to go in and compete with and now both are in trouble. 1 notice that the paddl e company, the Cre dit Union forecl osed on them them.

If the govern men t is insisting on going into the paddl e manufacturing busine ss, why not locate it in Gimli? That's just the type of sugge stion that I'm talking abou t. So, I'l l take the Minister's commen t s and just leave it at that un til I can offer some concret e sug ges tions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Mem ber for Bir tle- Russe ll. 1957

Friday, April 15, 1977 MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister cou ld give us the assessed va lue of the Indus trial Park? MR. DOERN: We can provide that information bu t it is not available here. We can tell you the taxes. MR. GRAHAM: We ll, is it taxes or grant in lieu of taxes? MR. DOERN: Gr ants in lieu. MR. GRAHAM: Cou ld the Minister ind icate that? MR. DOERN: $1 46,000 this year, which goes to the R.M. and it'll be $171 ,000 next year, so that can't be ignored . MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, for that amount of money what services does the Rur al Municipality provide to the Park. MR.

DOERN: Garbage pick-up and police. MR. GRAHAM: No fire pro tection. I was waiting for an answer from .. .. MR. DOERN: We ll we have some fire pro tec tion from the RM, but we've also worked ou t an arrange men t whereb y we have a volun teer fire departmen t on the base which is paid for - the expenses of the volunteer fire depa rtmen t which is our s operates on the basis paid for by the town and the RM. MR. GRAHAM: There is no cost then to the Park itself for the fire ... how about the initial cost of the equipmen t? MR. DOERN: We bought a fire truck, a used fire truck. MR. GRAHAM: That is all, Mr . Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolu tion 10 2(b )-pass; Resolu tion 10 2( 5) Provincial Land Acquisition (

a) Land Acquisition Branch (1 ) Salaries. The Honour able Member for Cres en twood. MR. STEEN: Mr . Chairman, to the Minister. Salaries $25,900 , I would imagine that's one pers on, right? MR. DOERN: I am sorry . We are on Land Acquisition. MR. STEEN: Okay. No, higher, (a)

(1) Salaries, $678,800. That is for how many persons? MR. DOERN: Fort y-nine SMY, which is the same as last year. MR. STEEN: I have no further questions at this time. Some of the other mem bers do, though. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Mem ber for Birtle -Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr . Chairman, I think perhaps it may be more appropriate to deal with the whole Land Acquisition activities under this particular aspect of it de aling with the Salaries.

Maybe I will deal wi th the Land Value Appraisal Comm ission later on, bu t has there been any significant change in the policy and the di rection of the Land Acquisition Branch in the last several years of its opera tion? MR. DOERN: No. MR. GRAHAM: At the pres ent time then, the Land Acquisition Br anch still acts, say, on behalf of Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corpora tion and other agencies of govern ment ? MR. DOERN: We operate on behalf of all of the govern men t exc ept the four excluded by legislation . MR.

GRAHAM: Has there been any considera tion given to removing Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation from the umb re lla activi ties of the Land Acquisition Branch? MR. DOERN: No. MR. GRAHAM: Through you to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, what is the general policy of the Land Acquisition Br anch as far as purchasing is concerned? Is it to try to keep the price of land down or is it to acquire as quickly as possible the land that is re quired by the various levels of govern men t or just what is the general policy of the bra nch? MR.

DOERN: We are re ally talking in ge nerali ties now, bu t I suppose the task of the Land Acquisition Branch is to act quickly and to acquire at a fair market price. I mean we do n't go in and offer a ten th of market , try to club the citizen into subm ission. Our job is to look at comparable sales. That is the ke y word here , what is comparable in the area, similar proper ty for similar use at a similar point in time. And when you know that, that is the basis.

Now then , after that the matter is referred to the Land Value Appraisal Commission and they are a watchdog not only to see that the govern ment isn't paying too much , bu t to see that the government isn't paying too little. So it is kind of a two pronged oper ation in the end bu t we have, I don't know how many, qualified appraisers on staff, abou t ten fully-qualified appraisers and I gu ess other people who are at various stages of acquiring their papers and their experience. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, the reason I asked the question is I belie ve there are some examples in some cases that have caused some consternation to the various levels of govern men t where the Land Acquisition Branch and the Land Value Appraisal Commission have in fact, ei ther because they fe lt the price was too high , have not re commended the purchase of land for a specific purpose as was reques ted of them by the various authorities. MR.

DOERN: 1 just this week composed the longest letter to the ed itor that I have ever written. lt is a three- page, singlespaced letter on that topic concern ing the Member for Fort Rouge and a Free Press ed itorial on Bill 4. And there is no way that you can run the gamut and not get hit on one side or 1958

Friday, April 15, 1977 the other. There is always going to be somebody who will say you are paying too much and there is always going to be somebody who is saying you are paying too little. On one isolated exam ple you might have agreement but essent ially that is the nature of the business, somebody saying you are throwing away the taxpayers' money and on the other side is somebody saying, look at that poor little widow or that poor immigrant. -(In terje ction)- Yes. And in the case of the Libera l Party we have Mr. Arenson saying you are cheap, hard , and paying too little, and Mr.

Axworthy saying we are throwing away money, so how can you please everyo ne? You are trying to det ermine price. I say un less you have knowledge of a particular instance, you are re ally shooting in the dark bec ause unless you have acquaintance with a particular situation, you cou ld be completel y out as to whether or not, say, a house that we boug ht for $14, 000 is worth $1 2,000 or $30,000 unless you know the house, know the area, know the mark et, you are just rea lly gues sing. MR.

GRAHAM: I would like to ask the Minister, then, if hewou ldn' tt hink that possibly if he exerted more of his efforts into the activities of his committee rather than spe nding a gr eat deal of time writing letters to the edit or. Now maybe the editor is going to solve the prob lem, I don't know, but I think that it seems somewhat foolish that we shou ld pay a man a fairly high-priced salary to be handling these activities and find out that he is spendi ng most of his time writing letters to the editor. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, if writing one letter a year to the editor is spending most of my time, that is a remarkab le state ment indeed. But I don' t rea lly involve myself at all with the Land Value Appraisal Commission. They are semi-aut onomous. I don' t meet with them and tel l them to kick this place up and knock that one do wn. That is not my responsibi lity and I am genera lly acquainted with problem areas and I get a stream of correspondence from my dir ector on matters that he thinks should be dr awn to my attention.

I gu ess there are litera lly thousands oftransactions that go on every year and I cer tainl y am not acquainted with all of them and I don' t want to be. I have other responsibilities. I have considerabl e confidence in Mr . de Zeeuw, he has been praised to the skies, I think correctly. I have heard him called by some people the best civil servant in the Manitoba gove rnment. I wouldn' t say that myself; I would just say he is in the top te n. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, has the Min ister paid any heed to anyoft hes tud ies that have taken place and the recommendations of the various stud ies that have taken place regar din g the sugge sted changes in policy with respect to Land Acquisition? MR. DOERN: I am simply not familiar with what the Minister is refe rring to when he talks about studies and so on. I don' t know if he is ta lking about appraisers' journals or studies he has heard or read about. I know of no such studies. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I refer in particu lar to a study commissioned by the Manitoba Hous ing and Renewal deal ing with Land Acquisition.

In the

summary of their reco mmendations, and it seems rather surprising, I will quote from Recommendation No. 15 , the Land Appraisal Board and the Land Value Appraisal Commission have made policies which are . not within the terms of authority laid down by the Land Acquisition Act. Now if ther e are activities going on that are beyond their terms of refe rence, I think the Minister should be concerned . MR. DOERN: MHR C or us? MR. GRAHAM: Your depar tment, the Land Acquisition Branch.

If you are carrying out activities which fall beyond the terms of the Land Acquisition Act, then I th ink the Minister shou ld be doing something to correct that. MR. DOERN: I know of no such activities. If the memb er can dr aw to our attention what the y are, we could comment. I might point out that the author of that docu ment is no longer with MHR C so I don't know what credence has been placed on his comme nts. MR.

GRAHAM: We ll, I will go on, and again it is coming down to what I referred to earl ier. lt says, "The Land Value Appraisal Commission has refused to certify the price of some acquisitions because they di d not bel ieve that the proper ty being acquired was a suitable location for the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corpor ation." MR. DOE RN: On that point I might concur with that particu lar criticism. That happened in one or two instances.

I think that objection was raised and the objection was accepted by the Land Value Appraisal Comm ission that that was not in factwithin their terms of reference so they ceased doing it. MR. GRAHAM: Can the Minister ind icate when that practice ceased? Was it when ther e was a change in the pers onnel in the Land Value Appraisal Commission or was that policy institut ed prior to the change? MR. DOERN: I think that this arose a couple of years ago and this was sort of di scussed and, as I say, it was agreed to and so the practice stopped . MR.

CHAIRMAN: If the honourable mem ber has any further comments on the Land Value Appraisal Commission, 1 wonder if he would defer them until we reach that head ing? MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, it is very di fficu lt to di fferentiate between one and the other because the two must of necessity work fairly close ly together and if it is agreeab le with the Committee, I would choose to deal with the two together because there has to be a cross-refe rence 1959

Friday, April 15, 1977 constantly bet ween the activities of the two. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order , though I sympathize with you as Chairman, I think that what the member says is true, that the two are intimately or intricately involved and perhaps we could Allow some len ience so we don't get too precise. You really can't di scuss one withou t the other so if we could have some len ience, it migh t help us furt her our work. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Chair does prefer to ext end a certain amount of latitude to honour able memb ers, bu t it was the memb er himself who brought up the commission by name and a decision it had made. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I would ask a rather general question then. Have the activities of the two commissions or the two branches shortened the time cycle appreciably in the whole acquisition process? Ther e has been concern raised on numerous occasions that it is a very involved and leng thy program and ther e has have been considerable dela ys as a res ult . MR.

DOERN: I think in general that the process by its very nature takes time and the alternat ive is to ram things through, or "haste makes waste." And I think that there is very little that I can see to speed up the process that cou ld be done. You know it takes time to make an appraisal. it takes time to acquire land. lt takes time to negot iate, to serve notice to people, to give them a chance to raise objections or barter and bargain with us. Somet imes I gu ess it takes us a year or two to acquir e a piece of land. MR. GRAHAM: Another rather general question of the Minister.

In the total acquisition policy of the govern men t, and I under stand they have ac quired considerable propert y over the last several years. In a general ballpark figur e, could the Minister give me a rough percen tage est imate of the amount of land that has been acquired through the expr opriation process rather than through the straight acquisition where there is an agreem en t on both side s? MR. DOERN: First by agreement, on 260,000 acres, there were 14 ,000 by agree men t- 14 ,000 agreemen t s equalled 260,000 acres.

My Director is giving me an est imate that probably an add itional ten percent was by expr opr iation. MR. GRAHAM: Abou t ten percen t of our land acquisition ... . MR. DOERN: Add itional. MR. GRAHAM: ... then goes through the expro priation process. MR. DOERN: A maximum of ten perc ent . MR. GRAHAM: Has that figure change d appreciably from year to year, or is it a slowly increasing process annually? MR. DOERN: The Director has been with us for abou t 12 years, and again we're talking general ly her e now.

He says basically it's constant from year to year bu t possibly in the last year or two there has been a little more dif ficulty than had been experienced previously. Rememb er, you're into a period of high inflation, and land prices people want more money, they figur e they should get m ... cl money. Everybody is making a killing, they should make a killing. I guess when the marke t is static, you have very few prob lems ; when it's hot, then you have more problems. MR. GRAHAM: We ll it appears that at the presen t time there is a levellin g ou t process.

Has the expr opriation process been decreas ing in the last two or three months? MR. DOERN: it's very hard to commen t within a period of a few months bu t expropriations often occur only after there has been a breakdown in negot iations and negot iations may have gone on for months. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I und ers tand that at one time in the land acquisition process there was some di fficulties I bel ieve ge tting the necessary approvals from the Depart men t of the At torney Gener al. Ther e were some dela ys there. Has that problem been resolved now? MR.

DOERN: If the memb er could be more precise we migh t be able to answer that. MR. DOERN: I bel ieve in the process of acquisition, I think there is one step there where you re quire signatures from the At torney-G eneral's office, is there not? Or has that been removed? MR. DOERN: We'r e not aware of any problem and if so there hasn't been for a number of years. MR. GRAHAM: With the change in the Land Titles Office and the process that they are going through in the proces sing of Land Ti tle Certificat es, have the prob lems that existed there dimini shed? MR.

DOERN: In the reg istration of survey plans, there is a backlog bu t there is a new system that's just right now going in t o effect and it's anticipated that they will clear that backlog in the next couple of mon ths. MR. GRAHAM: So the change in proce ssing there has not been fully implemen ted then, to your knowledge? MR. DOERN: Right . MR. GRAHAM: I think those are basically the questions I had, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Mem ber for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: 1 wanted to ge t into the idea of what the Min ister seems to be running into in this responsibility he holds.

The first observation I make is, does the Minister feel that public 1960

Friday, April 15, 1977 announcements by his fe llow Ministers - he talked about acting quickly. He talked about basing prices when he's going around acquiring because of comparable sales. Does he find that sometimes publ ic announcement s by fe llow Ministers add to the cost of these bu ildin gs? I refer particularly to the former Minister of Autopac. He seemed to give an ind ication that the Autopac Buil ding was going in the core area and I wonder ed if the Minister might deal with that separately, but maybe give me some ind ication as to what the commercial acquisition would be on a bu ilding like that?

In other words, my experience in City Counci l meant that you did have to act quickly and a lot of times publ ic announcements and ribbon-cutting situations were made far in advance ofthe staff bei ng ready with the notices and everyth ing, and as a resu lt many strange things happene d : Long-term leases are signed, lease options are signed , and things like this. Does the Minister see some prob lem in dealing with these commer cial acquisitions that he has to overcome compared to the private sector?

In other words, does the govern ment pay a whopping amount more than the private sector when it comes to acquiring land and assembl ing land and/or the leases for a gove rnment building? MR. DOERN: We ll, you know, clearly, if an announcement is made thatwe are going to bu ild here or buy here, then the word gets out and up go the prices. it's obvious l y not a good policy to announce a program and then trund le down there a few weeks or months later and start negotiating.

That's not the best way to do busi ness. it's clearly better not to be too precise in terms of those announcement s or not to make any announcements in that regard. I suppose the best way to oper ate when a decision is made and there is a clear act of will or intention on the part of the govern ment, is to actually expr opriate. The fact that you expropria te doesn't rea lly mean that people don't have a chance to bargain with you, it simply means that on the particu lar date of the expr opriation, the price is froze n.

Then there is also a certa in advantage there as well because if someone settl es early in the game and somebody holds out another six months or eight months, then often a higher price is paid and somebody is di sgruntled. So prematu re announcements can be damaging. ln the case ofthe courts, the magistrates' courts or provincial courts across from the City Hall, we started off with an expropriation - it was just "bang " - designa ted the area and expropria ted it. And there was not a single objection raised. I thought ther e would be and we were concerned about enquir ies and this and that.

I don't know how many business there are there, four busi nesses. Russe ll Foods I think is in there, William Restaurant Suppl ies rather, etc., you know, both the former counci llors know the area well. No objections at all. MR. WILSON: The Minister has told us the good news, now . how about tell ing us the bad news. Did he have any di fficultly, because of announcements by his fellow Ministers, in acquiring the commercial acquisitions for some of these other bu ilding s?

Could I deal with the Autopac building? it's been rumou red that some ver y interes ting increased values in leases came forward and I wonde r if the Minister could te ll me the cost of commerci al acquisition for that bu ildin g? I bel ieve that's the one that has the Brunswick Hotel and what have you. MR. DOERN: There were only two properties, neither of which were leases. One was the Brunswick and the other one was the Victoria Candy Company. I think, to the best of our knowledge, the price we paid was reasonable in a sense of ref lected market va lue and the operations of those facilities.

I gu ess the Bruns wick was a highly successfu l beer operation and I don't know about how many candies came out of the other company. MR. WILSON: Well then, what I maybe was looking for - because the province pays for 50 percent of a lot of the capital projects that the City of Winnipeg has, could the Minister in di scussions with the City, if his success with the City Cour ts is so fantastic - could the Ministe rs ee that all leve ls of government oper ate in an expropriation manner rather than making prematur e publ ic announcements which cost us a fantastic amount of money?

Now that is a compliment to the Minister if in his short period in office that he rea lizes that, because I've been saying that all along. I said that when we were deal ing with the Portage and Main operation . We had companies that were bankrupt all of a sudden became worth a lot of money because of an appearance of a ten-year lease. And people who had signed leases with their wives and things like this; and ten-year options for automotive supplies, five and five. This is the kind of thing, somebody has to buy them out.

We're in agreement on that aspect, but I would like to get back to the problems the Minister had with the new Government Garage and the pr obl ems he had with the Law Society. Is the Minister satisfied that the Law Society dea lt proper ly with his complaint or his enquiry per taining to the conduc t of Mr. Arenson with his dealings with them? Did they do anything at all? MR. DOERN: That was an interes ting episode and I dr ew to the attention of the Law Society ce rtain activity on the part of a lawyer which I thought was ...

I don' t know if I want to use the word "unethical" but let's say that it was pecu liar at any rate, because I thought that the lawyer was taking to the streets and taking to the media to argue his case in court as well as being sort ofone foot ... I guess he had one foot in the streets and in the me dia, one foot in the political arena and two arms in the law books. The resu lt is that I just fe lt that he had gone beyond normal conduc t for a lawyer so I dr ew it to the attention of the President of the Law Society who is a di ntingu ished lawyer in his own right. He wrote 1961

Friday, Apri1 15, 1977 me back a very very interesting letter which I though t was written more for posterity than for me. lt sounded like a learne d judg ement written for history . I then replied to him and said that I di d not know why he had answered the letter in a particular way. I pointed out that his defence was not a very good defence, which was perhaps pre sumptious on my part. He wrote back and said he wasn't at all de aling with the case at hand, that he was simply writing some sort of a philosophical letter on the matter.

I assumed that what trigg ered the letter wasn't philosophy but was the ar gu ment that I had with the other lawyer. Then I thought, well, I'm not satisfied with him. He said that I sort of should n't hide beh ind the fact that I was a Minister of the Crown or something. He then said that he wasn't answering me as a President of a Law Society, he was simply answering me as a citizen or a lawyer. So itwassort of okay for him to not act as a President of the Law Society , or write as a President of the Law Society but it wasn't okay for me to act as a Minister.

I then thought, well, I'm not satisfied with Arenson's behaviour and I'm not satisfied with the letter that I received from the President of the Law Society , so I will formally lodge a complaint with the Law Societ y. Now, I have to only te ll you my perso nal feel ings on the matter. l did not think that I would receive a fair hearing because I was attacking a lawyer and attacking the President of the Law Society . I assumed that people and human nature being what it is, that the Law Society would not spring to my defence but would be inclined to support their own members.

Many months later, I received a very terse letter from the Law Society , I think a paragraph, saying they had looked into the matter and there wasn't an ything there, period . I was also threatened by a lawsuit by Mr. Arens on, he was going to haul me into court and he hired himself a lawyer ; and I asked a lawyer, a very very good lawyer to act as my lawyer in the event that anything came of it other than a few letters.

So my lawyer, Mur doch MacKay, who is not only a good lawyer but a good cand idate, wrote back a few letters and there was about 20 cents of postage wasted in the process but nothing ever came of it. So I don't know if it was a tem pest in a teapot or we fought to a dr aw, but I was not surprised with the res ult, the re sult being that my complaints were ignored and the other re sult being that the threatened lawsuit evaporated. I anticipated both and both happened . MR. WILSON: Maybe I should be asking the Minister the same question I asked the Minister of Labour, could he ind icate Mr.

MacKay's fees for this service? MR. DOERN: I think he did it for posterity , less six percent. MR. WILSON: I would like to again get the Minister's thoug hts because I'm concerned as well. My experience at City Council was that if we didn' t exprop riate, if we went in as the good guy- what I'm suggesting to the Minister and maybe I'll ask his comments first - but mine was that if you sent the private secto r out, whether it was Oldfiel d, Kirby or Aronovitch and Leipsic and asked them to assemble some land for you, they would go out and bu y up the houses atthe market value, or market value plus.

They would do this for you because the people were very , very happy to be able to make two or three thousand dollar s over and above what thei r neighbour s sold for.

However, it seems that as soon as the Government announces that they are going to go into a section, or the City is going to go into a section, immediat ely the Legal Aid Lawyers or lawyers from the private secto r, immediat ely converge on the area and try to look for customers. ! would wonder if the Minister has any ind ication as to the fees in this particular case thatthe lawyer in question, that he was dealing with, received for the battle that he had with the Minister. Did the Minister ever take it upon himself to inquire the legal fees that he received?

And how many of the nine residents did the government have to take to expropriation, or take to court? Did the y go as a gr oup? Were they all on Legal Aid or did each one go separately ? Did they all have dif ferent lawyers or were they all represented by the same lawyer? MR. DOERN: We ll, first of all, I want to say that I cou ldn't agree more with the Member for Wolseley , that practices of making public announcements and then moving in to acquire property is, in fact, the height of folly. I mean nothing could be more stupid than that.

And I also, like the member as a Winnipegger, have felt rather uneas y about some ofthe deals made by the City of Winnipeg . I can tel l you that I look with some trepidation on this new arena proposal. I think there is something very fishy about this private proposal that is before City Cou ncil. I think the y would be well advised to look at it very carefu lly. I have some very serious doub ts about that. If they 're going to tu rn millions of doll ars over to private promoters, the y better think twice about the ramifications of that and I think they should think of operating the ir own arena.

Now, the member refers to, I suppose, what is known in the trade as ambu lance chasers and so on. 1 don't know. 1 have no idea on what basis, how Mr. Arenson came to represent his clie nts, I have no idea. But he did re present six and we settled five out of cour t. One, I suppose, is going to court. That's neither her e nor there. If two parties can't agree then that's perfec tly reasonable. When you can't agree ther e has to be an arbitr ator and ultimatel y this will be the courts and it will go to court.

And the amount of money he was paid was in accordance with, I gue ss, a fee sche dul e approved by the 1962

Friday, April 15, 1977 Attorney-g eneral . I don' t know what that is. lt's some sort of a formula based on the number of hours etc. , etc. , that he would have received . I assume it will be X thousands of doll ars, but I wouldn't know how much. No, not that much, my Di rector says. MR. WILSON: Is it not true that legal fees are part of the negoti ated price. In other words the government must pay the legal fees. Is that not corr ect? MR. DOERN: Where we agree on the compen sation the legal and appraisal fees are paid for. MR.

WILSON: Does the Minister have any idea of the commercial acquisition for the provincial garage? Has he got any estimated figur e? MR. DOERN: The Central Provincial Garage is approximately $530,000.00. MR. WILSON: $530,000 in a depr essed area of the city. Okay. We'll leave that one for now. My parting question is, does the Minister figur e that he completel y hand led the proper ty acquisition in that area or did he learn from that experience. What I mean is, if you had to do it over again would you have gone in and expro priated? MR. DOERN: That's a tough question to answer.

Our experience rea lly wasn't that bad. We acquired two full city blocks which, you know , is a sizeable amount of land , and ther e was some drag out in proceed ings and I can't say that I was thr illed about people living in the area appearing on all the hot-line shows and one of the female hot-line hosts practically bur sting into tears about some poor family, and articles in the media showing poor little people getting crushed by the govern ment, and that kind of th ing. I don't know if that's media coverage or fact or fantasy, or whether it was orchestr ated by the legal counsel. That

part I di dn' t like too much , but in terms of the process if you go the other way you can be criticized as well. We took the sort of liberal , generous position that we were going to negotiate with people and go through the process. And when you go that way it's always longer, it's always more painful in some ways, but it might be more satisfactory for the citizens. You know, I was told that in one case some man couldn' t sleep all night because he had to give up his home, etc. You know, it may be true, so I think I'd have to reassess that at some point in the future. MR.

WILSON: We ll, I partly agreed with the Minister to this point, but now I get to the point that I' m concerned , because in my experience, in his ear lier state , the Minister di d drag out procee di ngs, and I refer to the Osborne Street bridge. I remember plead ing for that bridge and having a cost of about $1 .3 million, and it would be interes ting if the Minister cou ld indic ate what the final cost of the that bridge was, and also, the commer cial acquisition. I'm particu larly ticked off about one, I remember a particular house that a Mr. Cl ark, from Mr.

Boyce's department, rented as a parolee house or a half way house, and then it was condemne d and it was a de rel ict house. I agree that the Minister would be able to pass the buck and say, "We ll, the city was the one that acquired this home," but this home was land-l ocked , it had absolute ly no value , it was a derel ict home, you couldn 't build on it, and it was sugg ested to me that $27,500 might be a fair price for it.

Yet the Minister, thr ough the City of Winnipeg , paid upwards to $85 ,000 for that address, I bel ieve it was 12 Osborne Street, and now we have a large piece of meta l, a scu lpture there. I wonder if the Minister could, besides offering his comments as to the price, the commercial acquisition for the Osborne bridge, did he consider that he won in his arguments for the del ay? In other words, the Minister, I bel ieve, in a battle with His Worsh ip or with the City of Winnipeg , del ayed the construction of that bridge based on some envir onme ntal concerns. Did the Minister win that argument? MR. DOERN: Yes.

We ll, you know, Mr. Chairman, the member wants to talk price. Given the last few years, because I gu ess there's been years when land prices have gone down, and in others where the y've been static. But that's not our experience. We're living in a time when prices are going up and when they'r e skyrocketing we are trying to keep prices down. You know, it's been true the last few years that if you bu ild it last year it's cheaper than if you bu ild it this year, and if you build it this year it's cheaper than if you build it next year.

I don't know what effects ther e was on a del ay in regard to the Osborne Street bridge. But I can tell you my own concern. The city decided that they were going to widen Osborne Street by one full width, one extra lane, by simply nonchalantly tearing up the legislative lawn and Memorial Park. They were going to have one more lane by ru nning it across our lawn and running it through Memorial park. I think the di stance from the Osborne Street bridge to the end of Memorial Park, I forget whether it's half a mile or a quarter of a mile, but it's some di stance, it's a considerable di stance.

I raised the objec tion, I said , "Look, this is the same thing as bu ildin g a road through a park. You can do it, but you better be aware of it because , boy, once you do it it's gone, that leg islative lawn is never again going to creep over into Osborne and exp and. I mean that gr ass is gone foreve r. Now, I also had another serious considera tion about the trees.

We have those el m trees, and those trees are , I think, I don' t know, 50, 60 years old, maybe older, and by moving the roadway in and putting the sidewalk on the other side, I am informed by my gardeners - because I don't claim to have a green thumb-but by cutting in, you cut into the roots of those trees. They apparently have shallow roots , and there was a danger, as told to me by the chief gardener, that you might, first of all, damage and then seco ndl y, kill, those trees. Now, you know, it takes a long to gr ow them , Dutch el m 1963

Friday, April 15, 1977 di sease aside. So I objected, and my colleagues suppor ted my object ion, that by taking so many feet and running it all the way along our lawn and all down Memorial Park, and moving the sidewalk, you are taking too much land and you are endangering our trees. Now, the first thing that the city yielded was, they said , "Well, we're not going to take that piece off Memorial Park." So that was one point. Then second ly, they decided to take less space off of our side and to take some space off Gr eat West's side.

And then the third thing is they decided not to flip the sidewalk over on to the other side, but to leave it where it was. And you know, there's a whole lot of other issues involved here in terms of the new bridge. There's the question of what good did it do. The proper ty wasn'twidened very far on the other side. The ideal thing would have been to widen Osborne all the way up to Pembina Highway. But you know, what could you do, if you tried that you would need tens of millions of dol lars. You'd be knocking down commercial stores and it would just be horren dous.

So, that's really about all that I can say on that particular matter, that I had environmental concerns and we all wanted to see a new bridge, and we all wanted to pr otect the environment. And so, an intermedia te position was eventually agreed to, and ther e was less land taken as I have described. I also agreed to letting them take a piece of our lawn on the corner by the bridge where they made a right cut there. If you go down Assiniboine, behind our building, towards Os borne and tur n right, that was an extra piece that we gave them. And you'll see a tree there, that was part of our lawn on the corner.

One day, my deput y came to me and said, "Well they need this." So I said, "Well, give it to them." He can't say I'm not generous. MR. WILSON: I think the Minister is dr awing to a point that he has been very generous, and again, I'm not taking sides.

I just want to make the Minister awareof some facts that ifthere were seven trees and the price of the bridge went up a million and-a-half doll ars in the delay over the fight over the seven trees, that means that each one of these trees out here, as we pass them, is worth $200,000 a piece, and I hope that the r Minister will protect them from the Dutch elm dis ease or whatever. Also on the other side, what is the cost of that statue that the Minister has put on that property? The statue is a large ye llow one. MR. DOE RN: The credit for that creation goes solely to the city. l had nothing to do with it.

I do not regard it as a work of art, although it looks like a work of art. Somebody decided to take a piece of the original bridge and mount it and paint it. A lot of people will think it looks rather nice;- but I had nothing to do with it. MR. WILSON: My comment then is, can the Minister, through his staff, te ll me- I'm going by memor y because I don' t have my notes - what was the name of the company that you acquired that piece of proper ty, jointly with the city, for $85,000.00? Was it called B & B Enterprises Limited? MR. DOERN: We ll, I have very little knowledge of that proper ty.

The acquisition was done by the city, so they did the acquisition, we put up 50 percent. So, our department really wasn't involved, the government was involved but not my department. MR. WILSON: Was it your department's insistence to the City of Winnipeg that they acquire this piece as part of the acquisition for th is bridge, because there was a derelict home on that site? MR. DOERN: To the best of my knowledge we had no position whatsoever on that, thatwasac ity de cision. MR.

WILSON: Wel l, would the Minister look at the coincidence that, if B & B Enterpris es Ltd . is the name, and one of those people happens to be Benjie Remus, who was the Deput y Minister of government, wouldn' t it be strange that a home worth $27,500 would be paid $85,000.00? What was the value of that piece of land if the only thing that we've got on it is a particular piece of the old bridge? MR. DOERN: I just have no comment on that, Mr. Chairman. I'm not familiar with the transaction.

The member is intimating certain things, he is free to do so, but it cou ld coincidence, it could be market value, I have no views on the matter. MR. WILSON: In other words, we'll leave it at that, but the point is that the commercial acquisition is there. Now on the other side of the bridge we have a founda tion of a particular structure. Does the government or the city .... Who owns that structure? MR. DOERN: As you know, the company that wanted to build it a numb er of years ago, I guess they had a pretty good idea about an attractive apartment block on the river ban k, went bankrupt.

Twin towers were planned and nothing ever happened, and there's been some di ckering and de aling rece ntly, but it's apparently been sold recently, and someone, again, is trying to untrack it, but a private firm. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, all that land there is now in the hands of the private secto r. MR. DOERN: Right. lt always has be en. MR. WILSON: All right, that's all my questions then. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Mem ber for Pembina. MR.

GEORGE HENDERSON: I have some more questions in connection with rural expropriation and appraisals and so forth, because I know of several dif ferent examples that have happened and 1964

Friday, April 15, 1977 appraisals have been so slow that projec ts have been held up, not tor one or two years, but for many years. I just wonder why we can't do someth ing about changing this so it can happen much faster. I heard you say that there's been no changes in the reg ulations over the last number of years. Wel l, if ther e hasn't, I think maybe ther e should be because I don' t belie ve, when you'r e held up, whether it's with highways or whether it's for hold ing dams, or whatever you mention , that they should be able to be de layed as long as they are.

I'm jus t wondering if you would comment on this in gener al. I know that the time is running out and I know the Member for Crescentwood would lik e to say someth ing. I'd also appreci ate it if your assistants would dr aw me up a sum mary of the McEachern Dam, when it started and where they are now, and how many places they're held up on and so forth. lf I could be provided with this afterwards I won't question on it now.

On the whole principle of assessing land and appraisals and expropriation of land, this whole process is far too dr awn out. lt's lasting years and years. lt seems now- you said there's ten percent problems now in your expropria tion. I think thew ay it's going , the way people seem to be able to hold you up the way they're doing now, in another numb er of years you'll have 25 percent unless you strengthen the government's hand in deal ing with this. I'd like you to comment on some of this. MR. DOERN: The Dam that the honour able memb er refers to, we will give him a complete report on that. MR.

HENDERSON: That's emb arrassing to give it to me after ... MR. DOERN: Yes. My Director can whisper in my ear like a ventri loquist and I can give him the answer· right now if he wants. MR. HENDERSON: I think ther e's a matter of time here. l think we'd all like to see this part finished today, too. I will settle for a written reply. MR. DOERN: Fine. In terms of speed ing up the process, we're still strugglin g with the policy of "trying by agreement." And as long as you try to negoti ate by agreement you can run back and forth, back and forth , like a bear in a shooting gallery.

That is the basic crux ofthe problem. Now, in addition to that - so if you want speed, you expropria te. MR. HENDERSON: Right. MR. DOERN: The land survey branch, there has been some backlog there I hope they 'll be able to break. That's another department, but there has been quite a log jam there. Sometimes I gu ess, in Land Titles too, I don' t know about - not really-s o I gue ss it's basically on surveys we've had some problems and we've had problems in negotiating.

If the member would support the expropriation process, which has a very vulgar and nasty ring to it, but really isn't. lt sounds dr eadful, like "you're expropri ated ", and it sounds horrendous' but in fact, after the expropriati on, you still negotiate, and you can come to agreement, and we do, in by far the largest number. MR. HENDERSON: We ll, Mr . Chairman, I've got to say the word "expr opriation" can be made to sound pretty bad , but I don' t look on it as such.

I think it was probably a very good thing, that's why it was brought in, because if it wasn't for that some individual could hold someth ing up indefin itely. MR. DOERN: That's right. MR. HENDERSON: And that was the whole principle beh ind expropriations, so that when a man was offered a fair price it had to be sett led on. He has a recourse before the Cour ts but this should only last so long. The Expropriation Act is a good Act and it should be used . I don't think there is any use of pussy-footing around all the time.

The other thing is, I think ther e is too big a delay in between some of the offer s and some of the dif ferent things that go on. I know a piece on No. 2 of highway,west of La Riviere at one time , where it was held up a long time on account of expr opriation. lt used to be when people wanted a road they were glad to throw in the proper ty to get the road by them. -(I nterjecti on)- I know they haven't. And now, they'r e not only get ting paid well, they want a way more.

So I say the expropriation process is fair, and if you need to strengthen it up in di fferent ways so that you can go ahead and get the job done, let's do it. Ther e's nothing wrong with The Expropriation Act. Let's de bate it, and if it's right, then let's use it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 2( 5)(a) (1 )-p ass. (a)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass. (a)

(3) Recoverable from Other Appropriatio ns-pass. The Honour able Mem ber for Pem bina. MR. HENDERSON: Ju st before you pass that, Mr . Chairman, what do you recover from Other Appropriations. From what source? MR. DOERN: Those are recove rables from all other departments except the ones that are excluded by legisl ation. MR. HENDERSON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 2(5) (

b) Land Value Appraisal Commission. (1 ) Salaries. The Honou rable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: One question, Mr . Chairman. I gather ther e's only one emplo yee in this branch, is ther e? MR. DOERN: There are two. The Executive Secretary and he has a Clerk Typist supporting him. 1965

Friday, April 15, 1977 MR. STEEN: Okay. Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 2(5 )( b) (1) -pass. {b)

(2) Other Expenditu res. The Honour able Member for Crescent wood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, I gather that these are just the normal expenditu res in operating the department. Is that true, Mr. Min ister? MR. DOERN: That includes just normal cost of operation plus the salaries of the commissioners, $50.00 a mee ting. I think there are about six of them. MR. STEEN: That's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 10 2(5) (b) (2) -pass. (b)

(3) Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pass. Resolution 10 2, Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2 ,037,000 for Public Works-pass. I would now refer honour able mem bers back to Page 50 in their Estimates books. Resolution 99, General Admin istration (

a) The Minister's Salary, Compensation - Salary and Representa tion Allowance. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, my concern is one to just simply recap and congratulate the Minister on one hand for his improvement s of the Leg islative Buildin gs. I look forward, as the representative of Wolseley, to having the riverbank path possibly carried on all the way to Cornis h to allow for a very interes ting walk for a lot of the elde rley citizens who love to live in the downtown area, and I look forward to improvements in that area.

I would like the Minister to greatly improve the public washroom which is on the corner of Broadway and Osborne. I opposed the construction of that. lt's an absolute di sgrace, the amount of human waste and bad habits people are get ting into because of the fact that that building is seemingl y always locked. I think that if we're going to have that building on one of the main thoroug hfares an effort should be made to, despite the unpleasantness, cle an up in the general vicinity of that bomb shelter or public washroom, whatever we should call it.

I would like to see an effort made to, at some point in time, reduce the numb er of full-time parking people in the Legislative gr ounds. I think it's become a parking lot rather than a park, and those are some of my concerns in that area. I would hope the Minister would , again, very quickly, cu rtail the public announcements by his fellow Ministers which are costing the taxpayers unneeded waste of taxpayers' money when it comes to the Minister then having to go about acquiring, and possibly expropria ting, some of the land he needs for some of his projects.

I don't agree with the Minister's enth usiastic building program under the gu ise of creating jobs, because every time one of these buildin gs is built we have at least, anywhere from 300,000to 600,000 in maintenance, and I refer to the maintenance alone for the Woodsworth Buil ding. This is the kind of thing we've got to think about, is every time we acquire a new park, every time we acquirea nd build a new huge monument to the Minister and his government, there isthe cost of maintenance, and there should be further study done in that area.

Again, as I say, I do look forward to the Minister turning the Gimli Indus trial Park into a plus rather than a minus. I think the $800,000 loss is uncalled for and cert ainly there should be better co operation between the Minister and the Minister for Ind ustry and Commer ce. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Mem ber for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I will try and finish in three minutes time. I would like to ask the Minister if he would, on behalf of the members of the committee, convey our best wishes to Mr. Nordman for a speedy recovery.

I thank the Min ister and the staff memb ers that have particularly assisted the Minister in the absence of Mr. Nor dman. I know that Mr.

Nordman is a val�:�able employee of this department, and more se nior memb ers of the Legislature have said that he was bad ly missed by the Minister dur ing this past week. 1 have a comment to the Minister regard ing the Annual Report, and I would hope that his department, in the years to come, in the future, could perhaps prepare the Annual Report, which is a good report and lots of valuable information - but if they could try and prepar e the report along the lines of the Estimates, so that it follows the Estim ates a little more closely.

There doesn't appear to be a Table of Contents in the Annual Report either, and I think this would make it easierf or members of the committee, particularly the mem bers of the committee who did not spend the same degree of time as I di d in read ing the Annual Report.

They would come along and jump into the debate, threeq uarters of the way through a particular di vision or department, and I would have to try and whisper to them, "I've already asked those questions before you got here." So perhaps a little better preparation of the Annual Report, along the lines of the Estimates, could save us time in committee in the future. One area that we did spend a lot of time talking about was the new concept of Project Management.

In the report and also in the Minister's opening statement, he said that the Project Management concept had been in the works for some six years, and it's taken them about three years to implement, and has been in the throes for a little better than a year now. I would ask the Minister if 1966

Friday, April 15, 1977 he would watch this concept in the future very closely to make sur e it's going to do the job that it's been designed for. I did make comment ear lier in the week that I thought that maybe we were creating a new party to negotiations between the clie nt, the other department, the outside professional services and the Department of Public Works, that perhaps we were taking a triangle and making a square out of it by add ing additional persons that are get ting involved in de sign, etc.

I compliment the Minister and his staff for doing what I think is an exc el lent job in holding the line this year. I mentioned to the Minister on the first day that I would ask, in each specific department, how many emp loyees there were, and he gave me that information. I'm very pleased to say that the fact that the Minister has not increased his staff this year, I think is in keeping with the government's policy. We spent an hour and ten minutes last night on the costly experiment of the ele ctric cars. lt's one that I think, if the Min ister can get out from under, the sooner the better.

I don' t think that the experiment is, in the long ru n, going to save us very much money. The Woodsworth Buil din g - I would like the Minister, if he could at some future time, and because of running against the clock at this particular time , perhaps he could supply me with a written report as to the cafete ria rental arrangements. There's been a lot of publicity given to this cafete ria and the fact that it seems to operate somewhat di fferent than other cafete rias, in that the oper ators are able to give very choice meals. Perhaps the arrangement for this building is somewhat dif ferent from the others.

If it is, perhaps the Min ister can let us know. On the Gimli Indus trial Park, as the Mem ber for Wolseley said, there is an almost $700,000 a year loss in that particular structure, but it does emp loy 74 people and does provide space for di fferent indu stries that are serving Winnipegers as well as persons in the Gimli area. I would conclude, Mr . Chairman, by thanking the Minister and saying that I di dn 't bel ieve, on Monday at 9:00 . p.m. that we would still be here on Friday at 4:30. I thank the Minister very kind ly. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Min ister. MR. DOERN: We ll, Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to say that I thank the Memb er for Crescent wood for the manner in which he conduc ted himself and the fair comme nt that he made during our Estimates. I'd also like to thank the Memb er forW olseley for injecting some spark into the proceed ings. I would also thank my colleagues for attending, including yourself as Chairman, in your usual competent manner , and I would like to thank my staff, who have spent many months preparing for this.

Tomorrow, for the first time I intend to meet with my Deput y Minister, who is in the Gr ace Hospital, and talk over a few points with him and present him with a thousand page book that I bough t for him about espionage and intrigue dur ing the Second World War, someth ing he can peck away at while he is convalescing . I thank you for your participation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 99(a)-pass. Resolution 99, Resolved that ther e be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2,205,200 for Public Works-pass. That concludes the consider ation of the Department of Public Works.

The Honour able Mem ber for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I move that we adjou rn. MR. CHAIRMAN: Comm ittee rise. 1967

THE LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y of MANITOBA Friday, April 15, 1977 ESTI MATES -NOR THERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan): Before we proceed, I would like to draw the attention of the honour able members to the gallery where we have 24 students of Grade 11 and 12 standing of the Bem idji Public High School in the State of Minnesota under the dir ection of Mr . Richard Skayner whose gr oup is here as gue sts of Mr. Speaker. On behalf of all honour able members, I would bid you welcome this aftern oon. I would refer honourable member s to Page 48, Resolution 95(a)

(1) Salaries and Wages, Canada Manitoba Special ARDA Agreement-pass. The Honour able Member for La Verend rye. MR. BAN MAN: Mr. Chairman, before we adjourned for the lunch hour break, I asked the Minister several questions and I wonder if he could fur nish me with answers to those, please. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister of Nor thern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, the material I read out was not only where the province was dir ectly involved , but the Federal Government's dir ect involvement, and I won't be able to give that information to the honour able mem ber today, probably on Monday. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 95(a)

(1) Salaries and Wages $261 ,600-pass; 95(a)

(2) Other Expenditur es $81 ,900.00. The Honour able Me mber for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I haven't taken the Minister to task for all the other expenditu res in his department, but I would like to have a very complete breakdown of the Other Expenditures, the $81 ,000 in this particular section. MR. McBRYD E: Mr. Chairman, before I answer that question, I would like to table a few documents, or at least provide a copy for both opposition parties. In case they di dn' t have plans for the weekend, they might want to glance through a few of these things so we can have a more enlig htened debate on Monday.

TAB LING OF REPOR TS MR. McBRYDE: I would like to table the Report of the Project Pimadj ihowin Advisor y Committee; the Report of our Planning and Policy Deve lopment Sec tion; Experiences with the Clivus-Mulr um and Mul l-toa Toilets in Northern Manitoba, an In terim Report on the Mould eri ng Toilets Testing Program Carried Out by the Department of Northern Affairs, Province of Manitoba. I would like to table the Report on the Effects of Secondary Sewage Effluen t on Reed Canary Gr ass and Creep ing Red Fescue. I would like to table an Interim Repor t on the Renovation of Sewage Effluent by Aquatic ...

I would like to also provide the mem bers with the report entitled Prices, Organization and Use of Refriger ation and Cold Storage for Nor thern Manitoba.

I would like to also provide them with a report called The Demogra phic Series Work ing Paper Numb er Two- Population Projections by Age and Sex for Communities in Northern Manitoba; and a repor t entitled Availability and Utilization of Land Foods in Northern Manitoba; another entitled Duc k Bay Community Planning Study - Phase I - Inventory Analysis; another entitled Bu siness Organization Handb ook prepar ed by the Northern Strategy Co-ord ination and Su pport Branch, Department of Northern Affairs; the Manitoba Northlands Interim Progress Report 74/75; and the Campervi lle Co mmun ity Planning Study. - (I nterjecti on)- Mr.

Chairman, you can't win. Mr. Chairman, in answer to the question in regard to the item numb er 2( a)

(2) Other Expenditu res, the Other Expendit ures are broken do wn: Professional Fees $8,000; Office Operations $1 2,900; Communications $9,000; Mileage $12, 000; Travel $40,000.00. That's it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 95(a)

(2) Other Expenditu res $81 ,900-pass; Resolution 95(b)

(2) Project Pimadj ihowin. The Honou rable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Minister ind icated just before the luncheon hour adjournment that an aspect of this project had come to a completion. We note that there was some $200,700 allocated for this project last year. Could he give us some ind ication as to whether or not those dol lars were in fact all spent? I assume that that include d the little item that I raised just as the hour of adjour nment of consulting fees to one Mr. Dave Courchene and others.

Cou ld I ask the Honou rable Minister to break down for us- and this is bei ng retroactive to some extent, but ther e is no request for any funds being made for the coming year for this project, so that if I under stand the Minister correct ly, he ind icated that the whole project involved taking a look at a portion of the province east of Lake Winnipeg to ascertain what could be done or what should be done in that area in terms of community dev elop ment - can he te ll us how the $200,700 werespent? That's a lot of money, Mr. Chairman, even in this inflation economy.

In his explanation, who was the re cipient of those dol lars? I assume it went principally into consulting fees. How much of the $200,000 was intern al, was spent by staff. And for $200,000, Mr. Chairman, I would suspect that the Minister would have some outl ine for us or some concrete suggestions as to what is now possible for that particular part of the province. We have spent $200,700 in studying the area. We have a voluminous report prepar ed by the Advisory Comm ittee on the project and I hes itate to name it again 1968

Friday, April 15, 1977 because I have di fficulty with it, Pimadjihowin - close, pret ty close. I again respect fully sugge st to the Honourable Minister that he is not being entirely fair to people like myself, or indeed the opposition, that these repo rts come to us just at the time that I'm on my feet and trying to ask the Minister a question. I'm trying to do a reasonably respo nsible job in ascertaining how the tax doll ars of this province are bei ng spent.

I would have thoughttha t perhaps this was one of the repo rts that could have been sent to us like the MTS Report, like the Hydro Report, like many other reports, could have been sent to us a week, two weeks, you know, even two days in advance of today. But I will operate under the handicap that the Minister imposes on me and ask him, what are we get ting for $200,700 spent on this particu lar project and what are the prospects under this particular project? Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Honour able Memb er for Bran don West for rem inding me that the report is dated January, 19 77, so I would assume that this report has been in the governmen t's hands for several months, in fact several months before this House came into sess ion. MR. McBRY DE: Mr. Chairman, the report that the member refers to is not, I suppose, a di rect departmental report but a Report of the Advisory Comm ittee, prepared for them by the consultants mentioned there.

I think the consultants had finished their work by January but we didn' t receive the report until it had gone through the Advisory Comm ittee sometime in March. I apologize to the honourable member; I wouldn' t want to impose any more handicaps on him than he already suffers from.

The project was maybe in some ways similar to what he outlined should be done in terms of the whole north in that it was a fairly extensive consu ltation process with the communities I'm not sure how similar it was to the lnterlake consultation because I'm not fully familiar with those, but an advisor y committee was set up of representatives of the community and staff were put in place to work in dif ferent areas of the project.

Consultation staff was taken on and their goal was to work with the people in to get the community input the same time to try the co mmun ities' and provide the tech nical input so the communities could see the kind of options they had for their future dev elopment. The advisor y committee took a fairly important role in the oper ation. They also published a newsletter or a newspaper called the Pimadjiho win News. I don' t know if members received that particular publ ication or not on about a monthly basis dur ing their time of oper ation. This is in our mind, Phase I of what is sort of basic preparat ion.

What has to happen next of course is that the resou rces of the Federal Government and the resou rces of the Provincial Government will now be made available to the commun ities to proceed with thei r dev el opment. I think that a lot of the development is going to beg in on a community basis, as opposed to a whole region that is ther e'll be plans that affect the whole ' reg ion. But a lot of the work will be done on a community by commun ity basis, in terms of them implementing the reco mmendations.

So now that they have got to the stage where they have a number of proposals, the various depar tments, the Federal-Pr ovincial Government will work with them and assist them to implement their reco mmen dations and proposals. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I doub t very much whether there is such a word in the English language, but I've coined it and I've use it and nobody's really taken me to task for it - thatthat really is so much gr atuitous plap, spelle d p-1-a-p. it's the deriv ative from the word palaver, or something like that, you know, when somebody says a lot.

I can bel ieve the Minister when he says that there has to be agr eat deal of pre-emptory workdone, a great deal of planning work done, a gr eat deal of community involvement work done.

But, you know, yesterday the Minister himself ind icated to us how he approached the constituencies, particularly the constituency that he represents in the north - and I want to assure the Minister he is no different than any other memb er in this Hous e, there is a fine line that you have to be conscious of as a member, more so for the honour able Mi nister because he is gover nme nt, than say for instance an opposition member - when you beg in to talk about projects or programs in your constituency there is a tendenc y to accept them as fact before they in fact have had the opportun ity of being passed through the necessary agencies, grou ps and bodies, and the funds having been appropriated for them.

But what the Minister is parleying in front of us right now is reams of reports, lots of words about what his intentions are in the north, and how they may develop in the futu re, and we know by the Estimates that this particular repor t cost $200,000 plus, but I still have yet to ascertain from the Minister what he is going to do in the north. And, Mr. Chairman, this would be fair game ift his Minister was now accepting office. If this was 19 69. If this was 19 70 - and the honour able memb er for St.

Johns can leave because he doesn't like me raising my voice on a Friday afternoon - but if this was 19 70 1 would accept it, but not eigh t years after the fact, not seven years after a fact. I've sat in this House and I've been told by honourable me mbers how you have solved the problems of the north, how you have brought a new del ivery system of services to the north, how you have a gr eat under standing for the people of the north. Mr . Chairman, don' t now come to me with a $200,000 1969

Friday, April 15, 1977 booklet that says that you will in the future think about how to solve the problems. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Mem ber for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Min ister why he di dn' t table his reports at least a few days ago, because surely we could have made a contribution in opposition, or at least be critical of some of the repor ts -(I nterjec tion)- That's the whole point.

We under stand he had these repo rts in January, and if one of those reports cost over $200,000, surely the mem bers of this House should have had these reports, not after we're almost finished his Estimates, where we're almost prepared to let the Estimates go this afternoon, and then we get this whole stuff. I mean this is unbeli evable. MR. McBRYDE: I was ru nning out of mate rial. MR. PATRICK: I've never seen this happen in the House before, Mr . Chairman.

Even the Minister of Labour, when he di dn' t have his full Labour Repor t, or the Minister of Health and Social Services, they give us an interim report, or one that was run off on a Gestetner and stapled and at least we had someth ing to go with what the Minister is doing. But here, we und erstand he had these repo rts in January, and he's tabling them after we're almost prepar ed to let the Estimates go. A MEMBER: We've had ten minutes to read this. MR.

PATRICK: And the cost - the cost of one of those repo rts -( lnterjecti on)- lt may take three years for some members in this House to read, but I'm sur e that many would under take to read it quite quickly, and I think even two or three days would have been helpful, or before the Minister tabled his Estimates. I just don' t think it's fair at all, Mr. Chairman. I don' t think it's right or proper really. l'm very di sappointed in the Minister, because I though t he wanted to be open. He wanted his Estimates dis cussed in the proper manner. He wanted some suggestions.

The other thing thatthe Minister gets touchy about and I'm surprised, is you can't be critical. I think if the Minister is to be effect ive, we in the Opposition have to be at times criticial of a Minister so he can come back and challenge and stand by what he's doing. If we just let every thing go, I think that either we'd belie ve that you're very incompetent or that you're not doing anything. But when we challenge you, why can't you defend your policiesget up and ...

All of a sudden, the Minister, anything you ask him, he gets very touchy. l do take except ion, very strong excep tion, because I've never seen it happen - this many repo rts we get tabled when we're almost ready to pass the Estimates. These reports cost a lot of money. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister of Nor thern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: The member said we're almost finished our Estimates, we have lots of time yet to consider them. There are two repo rts in there that I think that are quite immediately relevant and I apologize for not making them available sooner.

One reason why I haven't made the Pimadjiho win one available sooner is because I rea lly hadn't finished it myself. But there it is and you have my copy. I'm get ting another one so I'll be able to have a chance to finish that. The other one that I think is relevant to the di scussion is - although it's a fairly old report now- '74-'75 Progress Repor t on the North lands Ag reement. I didn 't mean to provide plap for the honourable memb er. I di dn' t in tactfully answer his question in terms of the detailed cost breakdown on Pimadjiho win, and that's because I don't have it with me.

I mean that project is no longer in effect, so I'll have to go back and look over last year's figur es to get him all the costs and exactly how they break out from that particular project. The other repo rts are basically internal docum ents used by the department that I though t the mem bers may find inter est ing. A couple of them which I have just received and others that have been used within the department but not neces sarily by the Minister himself. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Mem ber for La Verendr ye. MR. BAN MAN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could clarify one point there.

He mentioned someth ing about the Manitoba Moods. Was this particular amount of money involved in the publication of that particular pub lication that was put out in Manitoba? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, while I am clapping, I better enunciate my words bette r. I said the Pimadjih owin News and not the Man itoba Moods. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Now, Mr.

Chairman, while the Minister is also doing that, one of the reports that I just received intrigues me. lt is the Problems of Refrigeration and Cold Storage for Northern Manitoba. There seems to me a situation that, like, if you could learn to sell refriger ators to the Eskimo population, you would become a pretty good salesman. But obviously that was part of the planning and policy dev elopment of the Department of Nor thern Affairs to deal with that. Mr. Chairman, in a more serious vei n, and re ally, Mr . Minister, you are not get ting offthe hook that easy because we are serious about you.

I would just like to read to you what I bel ieve epitom izes to some extent the whole position of Northern Affairs under your Min istry and under this government in northern Manitoba. lt is a particular quote out of the Economic Council of Canada's Eighth Annual Review dated September, 19 71 , which says this, "Goals," it talks about goals, "abstract goals such as fre edom, equity and justice have been articulated in many constitutions, charters and treaties throughout history and they refl ected some of man's most civilized noble and aspirations, but while 1970

Friday, April 15, 1977 such broad general izations may ach ieve wide acceptance as principles, they do not provide operational gu ideline s for pol icy formation." You know, Mr. Chairman, really what the Minister is di sappointing us in, is that in the past seven years, going on to eight years, we have had this expression of goals by this Minister and by this governme nt.

We have had this - well, I must say that we of the opposition haven't had, but we now have received it as of five minutes ago - reams of reports about the goals, experiences with the clivus-mulr um, mul l-toa toilets in northern Manitoba, refrigeration in northern Manitoba, community planning study in northern Manitoba, Manitoba Nor thlands Interim Report, community planning study, inventor y analysis, availability and uti lization of land foods in northern Manitoba, Pimadjihowin Project, and then finally this handb ook prepared by Northern Strategy Co-ord ination and Support Br anch. But, Mr .

Chairman, the Min ister has been singu larly silent in being able to spell us out the nuts and bolts of specific things in programs that he has done. Leave aside the fishing nets that he has provided to the fishermen in the north, the bombardier that he provided to the fishermen in the north - yes, that's fine, but, Mr. Minister, that's nothing new. That's nothing new.

That wicked, capitalist organizations like Booth Fisheries or Canadian Fisheries have done that for the last hundr ed years in the north without imposing on the taxpayer a $10 0 million bill, or without asking the Federal Government for $96 million. Now we want someth ing di fferent. We are prepared to buy someth ing di fferent. We haven't seen it from this Minister. MR. McBRY DE: Mr.

Chairman, the goal of Nor thern Affairs is to co-ordinate the activities of departments of government of the province and agencies of the Crown, where possible, for the purpose of encou raging development of northern Manitoba and respo nding and assisting local communities in northern Manitoba in their efforts in planning and organizing, and dev eloping and carrying out administering and financing programs to provide local services for the amenity of the inhabitants. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 95(2) (b)-p ass. Resolution 95, the Honou rable Member for Fort Rouge. Does the honour able memb er wish to speak on (b) ?

MR. AXWORTHY: Yes, on the Project Pimadj ihowin. Contrary to the opinion of the Memb er for Thompson that it may take us three years, it took me all of about three minutes to find some particular points in this document which I think at least leads us on to some further questioning. On Pages 23 and 24, they indicate that there must be a much stronger community approach to the deve lopment of reg ional plans and he goes on to talk about the continuation of an attitude which has re ally been kind of parochial, which, Mr.

Chairman, contrad icts what the Minister said last evening, that while he is prepar ed to consult on the local commun ity level, he doesn'twant to do it on the larger reg ional level because he can't get his Cabinet to commit and he has all kinds of problems. Whatthat seems to ind icate is that the approach coming out in this report in that three-m inute, quick perusal that we have been allowed, that there are probably many other rec ommen dations concern ing basic changes in the structure and approach to planning development under these agreements and to the kind of ec onomic development we are talking about.

Now I think what the Minister should ex plain to us before we leave the question of the Project Pimadjihowin, even though it has now been di scontinued , we would like to know what is the next step. What does the Minister now plan to do with this report and the others in terms of implementation? Jus t simply what procedu res is he planning to initiate at this time to give some life and meaning to the work that has gone on through which a fair number of tax dollar s have been spent.

I think it is important to under stand: Are these reco mme ndations themselves going to form the basis of a series of very specific proposals which I belie ve then should be taken back to the people in the north who are affected by this Project and di scussed with them as the report itself recom mends, or in fact are we just going to leave it as another piece of paper to gather du st on another shelf, which too often happens to these kinds of consultant repo rts?

So that considering the front-end money that's gone into it already, considering the importance of the Pimadj ihowin concept as an economic reg ional deve lopment plan as it is outlined, and I can't judge the meri ts of it at this stage, I would expect that the department and the Minister would have had some plan in mind as to how they propose to take this report and bring it forward so that it will have some valuable and important results in a practical, pragmatic way in terms of that part of the northland area. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I think that the memb er came a little bit closer to hitting the nail on the head than he has in the past. The report that the memb er refers to, as I said, is a report from the Advisor y Committee, or the basic planning body. I think that the member would recog nize that quite often if you ask a planning group for rec ommenda tions' they would say, "Well, ther e should be more planning done." My response is that I feel the best thing to do now is to get down to work on the specific reco mmendations of possible economic dev elopm ent projects in those communities.

I am not anxious to have more funds spent on a large-scale planning process, but the fund s should go dir ectly into the implement ation of the kind of rec ommenda tions that are in there and we are moving in that dir ection now as fast as we can, not only in my department, but in other depar tments of the federal 1971

Friday, April 15, 1977 and provincial governments, to beg in to implement some of the recom men dations of that report. Those are the specific rec ommen dations that . . . . The staff of the department at the dir ection of the Minister are now working with the communities and with the Federal Government because it has to be a joint effo rt- Most of these commun ities on the east side are treaty commun ities - to try and implement some of those rec omme ndations as quickly as possible.

The specifics relate, and we can relate the first items here, I note, directly to the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. For example, the reco mmend ation ofthe upg rad ing ofthe airstrip at God's Narrows, the reco mmendation of the assistance to the winter fisheries in that commun ity, which is now be ing done through Resou rces and through Indian Affairs. Ther e is a rec ommen dation in regard to tou rist facilities at Oxford House . I think the Member under stands how things work fairly well.

Okay, we'll give assistance to Oxford House in the area of dev elopi ng that facility, but since Oxford House is just about majority, or close to 10 0 percent a Treaty commun ity, the Indian Affairs will be involved in those di scussions from square one because they 'll more than likely be the funding agency that provides the dir ect dollar assistance. Another is the Knee Lake sawmill and that is bei ng followed up by Resou rces again, who are assisting a number of commun ities to get into small sawmill dev elopment where it is feasible and practical in their particular area.

I don't know if you want me to go through every single project her e. The other is again an airport upgr ading which they feel is important to their economic deve lopment , and I can report to mem bers exactly what airstrip work would be done, or is intended , for the upcoming year providing all the approvals are received. The assistance for the Soapstone Carvers Co-Op, fur ther assistance has been given through the SNEP( ?) Program and Ind ian Affairs is basically the agency lead in working with the community on that particular project. They have received provincial funding through that program.

And I think each one of the recomme ndations, those that my department are involved in, or other departments, we can report on the prog ress being made to implement the various specific Economic Deve lopment projects. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Mem ber for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr . Chairman, I would like first to say that I hope that the Minister will send back my copy of his report.

I am also prepared to move in this Com mittee for an extra five dollar s to be added to the Estimates so that a xerox copy can be made of that report, so the Minister can have his own copy of it, and at least there would be three copies in existence in case the Member for Lakeside and myself meet with an untimely end this weekend . We wouldn' twantto have the whole Pimadjih owin Report di sappear from the face of the earth. So I'm prepared to move that the Committee, if the Mem ber for Lakeside agrees, $5.50 should about cover the dup licating costs oft hat report. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

That requires a message from His Honour and I would just say that the honour able member is not in a position to move that. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, one other question I would have concern ing this particular report, and the consultant's rec ommenda tions, it is my under standing that the original terms of reference of the project was not only to en unciate a series of specific reco mmen dations concerning individual communities, but that the idea was to try and designa te a specific reg ion on the northeast part of the lake that would try to provide some form of integrated, economic social planning within that reg ion, which does require more than a response to specific rec omme ndations. lt does require, whether it's a new organizational structure, interdepartmenta lly, intergov ern mentally, whether it requires a new form of reg ional corporation or planning mec hanism, whatever it may be.

I'm wonderi ng, aside from res ponding to specific reco mmenda tions, has the government accepted the basic concept that a reg ional eco nomic devel opment reg ion should be estab lished in this area and that ther e will be, as a resu lt, sort of a form of new corporate organizational structur e to try to give some meaning to that notion of a reg ional ec onomic plan that can be carried out in a di fferent way than the sort of specific ad hoc responses to particular needs? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Memb er for Thompson. MR. KEN DILLEN: Mr .

Chairman, the remarks from the Member for Lakeside and the Member for Fort Rouge have been described -I think it was the Mem ber for Lakeside who described the remarks by the Minister as ... MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honour able member state his point of order. MR. ENNS: 1 have no objections at all to the Memb er for Thorn pson making a contribution du ring the course of the debate, as he should, being a northern member. But I do object to the Mem ber for lnkster sitting beside him and coaching him. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. That is not a point of order. 1972

Friday, April 15, 1977 MR. DILLEN: I have just asked the Mem ber for lnkste rt o go over and sit and coach the Member for Lakeside. -(l nterjec tion)- What the Minister has been talking about in his Estimates so far has been described by the Member for Lakeside as "plap" I think he called it, p-1-a-p? -(Interjecti on)- We ll, you know, I've been read ing old Hansards and if anything can be descri bed as "plap" it is the contributions that were made in the years 19 66, 19 67 and perhaps 19 68 by the Leader of the Opposition, who was atthatt ime the Commissioner for Northern Affairs. I'm going from memor y now ...

A MEMBER: You have a pret ty good me mory considerin g you weren't here. MR. DILLEN: We ll, I can remember what I read about what was recorded and what occurred in the House at that time -(I nterjecti on)- Recorded.

The Leader of the Opposition who was introd ucing his Estimates, and I belie ve that it was 19 68, had a tremendous expenditure at that time of $200,000 for northern Manitoba - $200,000 which is an equ ivalent bud get for all of northern Manitoba and all of the people who are residents of northern Manitoba, which is the equ ivalent cost of the report that was refe rred to by the Mem ber for Lakeside, the Pimadjihowin Report.

Can you imagine anybody who has the nerve to stand in his place in this House, this year and ask the Minister of Nor thern Affairs what he is going to do in northern Manitoba for the people of northern Manitoba, when the best that they could do in northern Manitoba in 19 68 was provide a budg et of $200,000.00. MR. DIL LEN: I want to try and describe, you know, thatwhile there has been some reference made here, that somehow there is unwarranted exp end iture.

What the Leader of the Opposition in 19 68 said, in trying to provide some justification for the expenditur e of $200,000 - that well, the expect ations of the people were not that gr eat, they really didn' t want very much, they live a very simple life in the ir trad itional manner of hunting and fishing and so on. That all we had to do with that $200,000 was go in and shoot a few wild dogs and fix up a few foot bridges and that's all that the people expec ted of us. And then he went on to describe, I belie ve it was, fixing ranges, electric ranges or someth ing in Brochet, in 19 68.

My figur es might be wrong but I don' t bel ieve that there was even power in Brochet in 19 68. -(I nterjec tion)- Oh, that's right, they had thei r own I ittle I ighting plant for the teachers but nobody els e in the town had any power. I want to describe my own constitutency in 19 68.

Let's not forget that it was Gordon Beard who represent ed - the late Gordon Beard who represent ed northern Manitoba, the constituenc y of Churchill, before Thompson was created and after Thompson was created who sat on this House, on the government side, as a backbencher in the then Conser vative Govern ment - and you'll never be able to hide this fact from the people of northern Manitoba, that the late Gor don Beard walked across the floor and refused to sit with the Conser vative Party. -(Interjecti ons)- You know, there was a mee ting in northern Manitoba a few months back, and the Leader of the Opposition begged the people who were at this meeting- I bel ieve they were fishermen-begged them for an opportun ity to meet with them.

And when the discussion got around to the question of why it was that the late and great Gordon Beard-and I don't think there's anybody in northern Manitoba who doesn't have a lot of respect for Gordon Beard - when one of the fishermen in northern Manitoba asked the present Leader of the Opposition why it was that Gor don Beard crossed the floor, the Leader of the Opposition said in northern Manitoba just a few months ago, that Gordon Beard was a constant whiner and never had an original idea in his life. That is embedded in the minds of the people who were at that mee ting .

That is so typical of the attitude of the Conser vative Party towards northern Manitoba and towards its representa tion. Ther e was a reason why Gor don Beard di dn' t stay with the Conser vative Party. Because he couldn' t get the things done that he needed , that he saw, and that was requested of him to get done in northenr northern Manitoba. He saw the necessity for providing some accessibility to remote com munities dur ing the period of break-up and freeze -up, in the case of emergenc y to get people out of the communities who became ill or injured.

He saw that as be ing a necessit y but could not convince anybody in the Conservative caucus to do that. -(I nterjec tion)- But they could make these great announcement s about the availability of $10 0 million. They were saying the other day that they had no money, thatthere was no money for northern development. And I can still recall some of the head lines about the great breakthr ough for northern Manitoba, $10 0 million available. -(Interjec tion)- Yes. And Dr. Kasser came and got it and took it with him. And now we can't get that back or Dr.

Kasser either. - (l nterjec tions)- You know the Mem ber for Lakeside would like to stand up in this House and do some of the gr eatest - you know he comes on like a Barrymore. -(I nterjec tions)- He deser ves some kind of an award, an Academy Award for his performances in this House. And I think he should be recog nized. You know, I'll make it a point, if it will make him happy, to nominate him nextyear. -( lnterject ions) The flap award . I think that he should wear it proudl y. ! don't know what it's going to look like yet, but I 1973

Friday, April 15, 1977 think -(I nterjectio n)- We 'll put a beautiful blue ribbon on it and let him wear it around his neck. But I want just to describe some of the things that have occurred in northern Manitoba. I don' t know how much time I have here, but I'm going to go. I can only describe my own constituency because I'm more familiar with it. I know every crook in the road. And there was a time when there was no road .

I don' t want to go quite that far back, but it wasn't that many years ago that we were wiping out at le ast one family per year and more, at least one person per month on the road south of Thompson. We were wiping them out, we were killing them in the du st -(I nter jecti on)- Highway 391 , south of Thompson. I think it was in the 19 69 election that we were going to get some great pavement, it was just prior to the 19 69 ele ction. I can remember this yet. There was some kind of a cold process that was a new kind of breakthrough for paving in northern Manitoba.

The Conser vative Party- I don' t know where they found the money to do it-but they put a blacktop, it was a new paving program from Thompson to the Paint Lake tur noff. And it was such a good job that the blacktop rolled up in the wheels of the cars and the trucks as they were dr iving down the road. And when they stopped for the tracks, or any place that they had to slow down, the momentum of the veh icle and the weight of veh icle, rippled the highway ahead of the veh icle as it was slowing down. And then it wound up in the tires as it accele rated again.

That is the kind of-1 don' t know what you call that-Conser vative blacktop that existed in that part of the province. And that is still remember ed by the people of northern Manitoba. I can remember coming to this building and requesting in early part of 19 68, summer of 19 68, requesti ng constantly for road improvements.

And I hear, I think it was during the Throne Speech, the Leader of the Opposition replying and saying that they had a program that was left on the govern ment's desk when they were tu rfed out of office by the people of Manitoba, that would have provided for four-laning of No. 1 Highway right through Manitoba' if we'd proceeded with it at that time. But I bel ieve that the government made a conscious de cision, and a good one. You have to give Joe Borowski cred it for it. -(1 nterjecti on)- He said at that time that they were going to reduce the amount of expenditu res on highways in southern Manitoba.

And I bel ieve he made a good deci sion, and spend more money on northern highway construc tion. I'd like someday to- and I'm going to dothi s-make acomparison of a 19 68 map and a 19 77 map, showing what has occurred in northern road development in that short eight -year period . it's no sec ret that Thompson now has a road going northeast and northwest of Thompson that will tie in many more commun ities to all-weather capability. it's funny that we were told that there was no money, by the Conser vative party.

They were saying here - the Member for Lakeside was saying in this Chamber, I think it was yesterday, thatthey di dn 't have any money. How can they say at one point that they had no money when there was$10 0mi llion that was available for anybody who would come in and gr ab it. And there wasn't any money to build roads.

I can only describe my constituency at this time, or at least within the next month, twenty days after open water we expect that there will be a barge service providing accessibility to Cross Lake which is the closest thing we can get to all-weather capability, something that was completely unheard of. There are only two commun ities - three at the present time - in the entire Thompson constituency that do not have some form of all-weather access.

That didn' t occur before, it was done as a resul t of det ermi nation on the part of this government and this Minister of Northern Affairs to provide that kind of service. In the field of communications, ther e is not one commun ity in the entire Thompson constituency that does not have accessibility to dial te lephone . That didn' t occur in the Thompson constituency; I can still remember the peo ple of Thompson wanting just one te levision station in 19 68.

This year every community in my constituency will have either in place or under construction a potable water supply with purification, filtration and a pumping system . They will have accessibility to it; it's at least available to th em. If you remember, at the Habitat Conference in Vancouver, there was a woman who got up and said if we could do anything for the world it would be to provide them with a purified water supply. We didn' t need a Habitat Conference to tel l us in northern Manitoba thatthatwas what we had to do and it was put in place.

The planning was put in place and the implementation process was proceeded with and they are now in place or at least under construc tion. There was nothing to stop the Conservative government from seeing that as a necessity in 19 68, and they did not proceed with it. Many of the airstrips that exist in northern Manitoba now have all-weather capability where there is no other form of access, with lights for all-weather and 24-hour capabilities in many ofthe airstrips that exist in that part of the country.

I don' t know what more can be said about the criticisms that we are re ceiving from the Conser vative Party during the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. We are accused constantly . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Honour able Memb er for Lakeside state his point of order. MR. ENNS: I raise it with some reluctance because I am enjoying the mem ber's speech. I am sur e 1974

Friday, April 15, 1977 you, Mr . Chairman, have had some concerns about the rules under which we are operating in the Committee which we have adopted that ind icate that we speak under these specific items of the Estimates as we go th rough them and re ally, the memb er's speech is quite in keep ing on the general topic of, say, the Minister's salary or perhaps even in the first item of General Ad ministration. I only raise the point, Mr.

Chairman, because there is of course ad es ire on my part to respond in like kind to the Honour able Member for Thompson on some of the issues that he raises, but will choose not to because of my under standing of the rules. I might just ask you, Mr.

Chairman, to point out to the member that he can reit er ate this speech and carry on for another 40 minutes in much the same line that he is doing on the broad affairs of northern Manitoba and Northern Affairs, but we are deal ing, those of us who have been trying to keep to the rule s that we have adopted, we're under Item 2o ft he Northern Affairs Department, Special Programs. I think there should be some attempt made, Sir, to stay within that parameter. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I think your point is well taken and I think we should try to keep our remarks as much as possible to the Project Pimadjihowin as much as possible. If the honour able memb er wishes to make a broad statement on the policies of the Department of Nor thern Affairs, I think that it could be made under the Minister's Salary, and I would caution other memb ers, because other mem bers have been gu ilty of the same thing in this de bate already and I have allowed a fair amount of laxity but it has now been dr awn to the Chair's attention and I would like to thank the other memb ers to carry on in the same way.

The Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: I would like to rise on another point of order

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-40b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 40b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	6025e0b806186d99ac6bc7d2f377925ee9299799

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