Manitoba Hansard — 31 October 1988 (Sitting 68B, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-68b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 688 - 8 p.m., MONDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1988. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY ALCOCK,Reg Os borne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Steve Thompson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR,James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPYS KI, William Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN,Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DOER,Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Vir den GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ell ice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnks ter MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed Assiniboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBER AL NDP PC LIBER AL LIBER AL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBER AL PC LIBER AL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, October 31, 1988. The House met at 8 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-EDUCATION Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: I would like to call this meeting to order to consider the Estima tes of the Department of Education. We are on 1. Admin istration and Financ e (

g) Administration and Professional Certification:

(2) Other Expenditures $292,600.00. Shall the item pass? The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): I am wondering if you could explain or if the Minister could explain to me what, under Supplies and Services, takes up almost $200,000.00. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I believe that is the purchase of the in-house comp uter. Oh, I will correct that. Mr. Chairman, I would like to correct that statement. The answer to that is that it is the purchase of computer time in the operating budget for the purchase time of the computer. Mrs.

Yeo: There is a decrease under Other Operating. I am wondering if the Minister could clarify that. Mr. Derkach: That figure is a result of the savings that have been incurred, as a result of the purchase of an in-house comp uter. Mrs. Yeo: I am wondering, in '87-88, under Capital, what was purchased. Mr. Derkach: That is the budget for the purchase of � computer software. Mrs. Yeo: And an identical amount budgeted in '88- 89. Mr. Derkach: Pardon me? Mrs. Yeo: The identical amount is budgeted for the same thing. Mr. Derkach: That is correct. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? 1. (g)(2)- pass.

Section 2. Statutory Boards and Comm issions: Consis ts of the Government contri bution to the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund; other Statutory Boards and Commissions, (

a) Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund $26,51 4,400.00. Shall the item pass? Mrs. Yeo: Just today, in our mail slot, I received several things. One of them was a statement about the appoint ment of a Jo anne Newton from Roblin, Manitoba, as an executive assistant. I am wondering wherein her position fits. In the same pile of information, there was information on di fferent appointments to boards. I wondered whether this was a board appointment, or was it some special assistant to the Minister? Mr. Derkach: There is no problem in answering that question. Mrs.

Newton has been appointed or selected as an executive assistant to the Minister. Mrs. Yeo: Would it be possible to have the names of the persons on the boards and commissions for '87- 88 listed? Mr. Derkach: Just a question for clarification, would the Member lik e a copy of all the boards and commissions and do you want that provided tomorrow, or do you want me to read that into the record? Mrs. Yeo: No, I would be happy with having a list tomorrow or the next day. Mr. Derkach: For 1987-88, is that correct? Mrs. Yeo: For the coming year. Mr. Derkach: For the current boards, then? Mrs. Yeo: Yes, thank you. Mr.

Derkach: Mr. Chairman, we will provide that for the Member tomorrow on paper, if that is all right. *

(2005) Mrs. Yeo: Just a follow-up question, Mr. Chairperson, are all the positions filled on the boards at this point in time or do you have some holes that you have to plug? Mr. Derkach: The Statutory Boards and Commissions are all filled. Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): I just have a couple of questions with respect to this pensions number. The Government has to supply the part of their obligation on the pensions every year, does it not? Mr. Derkach: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Herold Driedger: This is an appropriation that must be made every year? Mr. Derkach: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Herold Driedger: So essentially we are talking about unfunded pensions here, that the money is not 2622

Monday, October 31, 1988 actually in trust. Essentially it has to be called for, budgeted for, each year? Mr. Derkach: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Herold Driedger: One of the problems that we are having with respect to Government debt is this large liability of unfunded pensions and it is not just the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund, but it is also all of the other pensions that are unfunded throughout the entire country. Is there any intention in the very near future to begin working at developing a funded status, or a funded situation for this particular pension fund? Mr.

Derkach: No, we have not done anything about that in the department to date. Mr. Herold Driedger: Have you done any projections as to the numbers of, I guess, retired teachers that will have to be sup ported by the Government's share of the pension? Mr. Derkach: Yes, that kind of information has been gathered. Mr. Herold Driedger: Could we have the comm ittee supplied with a projection as to what we might be looking for in the next 10, 15 years? Mr. Derkach: We have those projects and those can be provided for the Member if he so ch ooses. Mr. Herold Driedger: Yes.

I think, looking at teachers and the numbers of teachers that are going to be entering the retirement status in the next 10 or 15 years might actually be indic ative of quite a bit of the liability that the Government needs to face. I think it would be very wise for us to have a look at that kind of data. I would also like to ask the Minis ter if it might not be prudent on the part of Government to start developing some sort of long-term plans to develop some funding for these unfunded liabilities, some actual budgeted item year by year whereby more is put in than is taken out.

Could the Minister comment on that please? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Member for that comment and certainly we are aware of the situation and the fact that the numbers of teachers, for example, retiring over the next five years is going to increase and certainly being cognizant of the situation will also move us to perhaps seriously consider ways in which this can be dealt with. Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Could the Minister indic ate how the teachers' pension is act ually calculated? Is it always on a formula basis? *

(2010) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the standard formula is to take 2 percent of the average of the best seven or five years, depending on which plan the teacher bought into and multiply that by the number of years of service. Mr. Laurie Evans: In the contract, how is this identified in the teachers' contract in terms of the employee versus employer input into the pension plan or is that not in the contract? Mr. Derkach: No, that is not specifically in the contract. Mr. Laurie Evans: What is the teachers' contribution then on an annual basis in percentage? Mr. Derkach: The teachers' contribution is 7 percent. Mr.

Laurie Evans: But there is no matching 7 percent from the Government? Mr. Derkach: There is no contribution at the time from the Go vernment except the guarantee that the Government will pay half of the benefits at the time of retirement. Mr. Laurie Evans: A suppleme ntary question, if the teachers are putting in 7 percent, which they obviously are, they are accumulating a benefit fund. Now that benefit fund would be inv ested in some mann er. Therefore, it would be my as sum ption tha t the equivalent amount coming from the Government should also be generating the same amount of investment.

But I get from your comments that is not happening. Is that- Mr. Derkach: That is correct. That is not happening. As I ind icated in the previous answer, the Government does contribute 50 percent of the benefit at the time of retirement. But there is no contribution towards a trust fund or anything of that nature. Mr. Laurie Evans: Has this never been attempted to be negotiated by the Teachers' Society? Mr. Derkach: At this point in time, Mr.

Chairman, the Government itself has never made any contributions or matching contributions to the pension fund, although back in the early Fifties , I guess, there were contributions that were made by the school · boards. 1 However, since that time there has been no attempt made by Government to contribute to a fund in a matching way. Mr. Laurie Evans: I guess .a supplementary question then is what do the teachers gain by having made very wise investments of their money if in actual fact the only return they can get is based on a formula? Mr.

Derkach: I guess some of the benefits were in that they were able to negotiate better agreements. Second ly, such things as early retirement, for example, were a result of the Government not contributing to the pension plan directly, but ins tead paying half of the benefits. * (2015 ) Mr. Laurie Evans: The point I am trying to make is, had this been a fully vested plan from the beginning, the teachers would have got a lot more credit for the 2623

Monday, October 31, 1988 period when interest rates were extremely high. We hear a lot of negative things about those high investment rates, but had there been a large pot of money which there should have been, had it been a fully invested plan, they would have been getting tremendous returns on that investment during that period of time. 1t would seem to me that the Government actually has not met its obligations by having allowed this to become an unfunded liability. Mr. Derkach: That is a fact that I guess we cannot really dispute or argue in a hypothetical sense.

I guess The Pension Act sort of determines or spells out what kind of pension benefits the teachers are going to receive. That is a statement that really I cannot argue about because this has been the practice for over 30 years. Mr.

Laurie Evans: I am just looking at it in comparison with the University of Manitoba Faculty Association, which of course has a very similar thing with the exception that in recent years at least the university's contribution has been maintained and therefore the indiv idual staff members have this accumulation, which in tho se years of high interest rate has done remarkable things for the pension.

The other thing that concerns me is that there would seem to be almost a disi ncentive for the Government to be promoting the concept of early retirement because really, in effect, what it is doing is incr easing the Government's liability through this incr ease in the pensions and if it went from the 3,900 that are currently retired and you brought in early retirement and this jumped up to 5,000 or 6,000, in a very short period of time I can see this climbing up to $35 million to $40 million that would be required on an annual basis.

Does the Min ister not regard this as somewhat of a dis inc entive to promote early retirement? Mr. Derkach: That is somewhat difficult to respond to, especially since the process has been in place for such a long period of time. However, I think there are other-1 would not consider the statement that the Member made as being factually true in terms of that being a disin centive. I think there are incentives that encourage early retirements such as getting rid of the older and higher paid staff and perhaps putting in some new blood, but certainly-y ou know I am reaching that age, too.

I guess there are many benefits to having early retirem ent, certa inly in terms of provi ding opportunities for the new staff coming in. However, I do not think that particularly is a disinc entive. Mr. Laurie Evans: That disincentive I am referring to is the fact that an early retirement pl an would dramatically in crease the amount the Government would have to come up with on an annual basis. Mr. Derkach: I guess the only comment I could make is that when the early retirement plan was introduced , the teachers thems elves covered the full cost of early retirement for a period of five years. Mr.

Laurie Evans: The other thing that surpris ed me a little bit was the fact that there were only 3,900 teachers retired at the present time. What is the number that you anticipate retiring this year, next year and so on, on the assumption that early retirement is not an important factor? Do you have those sort of figures on hand? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I think the Member for Nia kwa (Mr. Herald Driedger) had asked for that information and I said tha t I would provide that tomorrow in a printout. *

(2020) Mr. Laurie Evans: That is a projection as to the numbers and to the cost. Mr. Herold Driedger: On a point of clarification. Mr. Chairman: A point of order- Mr. Herold Driedger: lt is not really a point of order, a point of clarification. lt is just on this question. I just want to make sure that the figures that the Minis ter is providing for that, I thought I was getti ng, will include the data that my colleague from Fort Garry is asking for, not only the retirement figures based upon a normal retirement rate but also the retirement figures.

That is two sets of figures on early retirement rate, so we can actually do some comparison of the costs. (The Acting Chairman, Mr. Darren Praznik, in the Chair.) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, yes, we can provide those projections and will, but I just perhaps could mention that the teachers' portion of the pension plan is actuarially funded and insp ected so that it is certainly in order and in place. We will provide the figures for you tomorrow in printout form. Mr. Laurie Evans: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, how long does a teacher have to be in the plan in order to actually be eligible for pension, as opposed to being paid out at the time they leave the profession? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, we have a conflicting set of figures here. I will take that question as notice and provide you with the in formation tomo rrow. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): I would point out to the Honourable Minister that I prefer to be called Mr. Acting Chairperson. Mr. Laurie Evans: One final question, Mr.

Acting Chairperson, and that is, is there a provision for teachers who are in the profession and then leave for a period of time and come back into it to maintain the continuity of their pension program? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Acting Chairperson, that is the fact. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the item pass? 2624

Monday, October 31, 1988 Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): Mr. Acting Chairperson, just to ask a few more questions before we proceed on TRAF. the $3 million incr ease, roughly $3 million, that is essent ially the cost to the province of 3,900 retired teachers, and how many new ones this year? This is an estimate, so this goes- Mr. Derkach! Mr. Acting Chairperson, for the year 1987, there were 330; 1988, as of September 30, there were 269. We are projecting or estimating 302 for the rest of the year. *

(2025) Mr. Storie: Mr. Acting Chairperson, just to anticipate what we might see tomorrow, how would that comp are with, say, 1984 or'83, something prior to the early retirement provisions? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I will just give the Member the figures from 1984. In 1984, there were 213 ; 1985, 260; and in 1986, 291. I have already given the figures for 1987 and 1988. Mr. Storie: In round figures, we have seen approximately a 40 percent or 50 percent incr ease in the number of teachers retiring, we can speculate, as a result of the early retirement provisions? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, I perhaps should read into the record the early retirements and then I will give the comparison of the regular retirements as well. If we start back in 1984, of the 213, 97 were 55- 59, 11 6 were from age 60 and over. In 1985, out of the 260, 135 were between 55 and 59, and 125 were 60 and over. In 1986, out of the 291 retirements, 17 6 were at 55-59, and 11 5 were from 60 and over. In 1987, of the 330, 205 were 55-59, and 12 5 were 60 and over. In 1988, of the 269, 142 were between the ages of 55 and 59, and 12 7 were over the age of 60. Mr.

Storie: So we had a situation prior to 1985 where fewer teachers took early retirement than teachers who took regular retirement by a fairly significant number. We have moved to '87, '88 where there is a significant number of more teachers retiring early. lt has been a fairly dramatic shift. The $3.1 million that it cost the province additional this year, that is obviously matched in some way either by contributions directly, the 7 percent that comes off of payroll for teachers, or is that a combination of money that comes off payroll or contributions through surplus? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, the $3. 1 million tha t the Hon our able Memb er refers to is the Government's portion of the Teacher Retirement Allowance Fund. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the item pass? Mr. Storie: I am sor ry, I was engaged in another conversa tion. I did not hear the Minis ter's answer. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, I would just like to ind icate once more that the total sum of $3. 1 million is the Government's portion. Mr. Storie: I understand that. Mr.

Acting Chairperson, my question was, the other 50 percent that goes towards pension comes from either the teachers' contributions directly or surplus? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that comes from the Teachers Allowances Fund. Mr. Storie: Mr. Acting Chairperson, do the teachers' contributions from payroll exceed the $3.1 million? Is there an ongoing building of the surplus at the present time? Mr. Derkach: Yes, there is a continual building of the surpluses. Last year the growth in the fund after payout was some $17 million plus change. Mr.

Storie: So after paying out $26 million- last year $23.4 million-the total of contributions plus interest accruing in the fund exceeded the payout by $17 million. *

(2030) Mr. Derkach: If you combine the 23 and the 17, I guess that would be the total growth of the fund. The fund would have grown by some $40 million. The payout was 23. lt is inter est combined, I might add. Mr. Storie: Could the Minis ter ind icate how much of that $40 million growth in the fund was as a direct result of the payroll deductions of teachers? Obviously the corres ponding figure would be the amount that was raised through interest accrued to the fund. Mr. Derkach: We can provide that information.

We do not have it with us here, but certainly I will provide that information for the Member tomorrow. Mr. Storie: Perhaps for the purposes of this evening's discussion, I guess the question is does that amount or would the teachers' contribution be more than half of that $40 million or less than half of that $40 million, the point being that my colleague from Fort Garry has raised the question of whether this in fact should be a fully funded pension on the part of the province or� not. Mr. Derkach: Although I do not have the exact figures before me, I can indicate that it is more than 50 percent. Mr.

Storie: The Minis ter has referenced the fact that there are savings as a result of early retirement for school divisions. I am wondering whether TRAF, Manitoba Association of School Trustees, who obviously suppor ted the early retirement provisions, whether anyone has done any specific calculations to determine how much they might save as a result of the difference between the teaching income of someone who has been in the profession for 20 years versus a starter and how that has actually affected the divisions? I know that argument has been moved many times.

I am wondering if we have any detail to su bstantiate it? Mr. Derkach: No, we do not have tha t specific information. But I am sure that the Teachers' Society 2625

Monday, October 31, 1988 certainly probably have done some research in that regard but the department has not. Mr. Storie: I think it would be useful to have that. I know we all make the general arguments. I am sure the Minister has, when discussing the early retirement provision, said that it is good for the system to have new blood, new teachers, new energy, new ideas into the profession. There has to be an economic argument as well, I guess. This is a follow-up question on my colleague for Fort Garry's (Mr. Laurie Evans) question about the funded versus unfunded position that the province is in.

I am wondering whether the Provincial Auditor has ever raised the spectre of this being an unfunded liability, one of my colleague's favourite terms, several years ago? Mr. Derkach: No, the Provincial Auditor has not raised this as an issue to my kno wledge. Mr. Storie: The Provincial Auditor certainly has raised the issue of Crown corporation contributions to the Manitoba Telephone System and Manitoba Hydro, where the funding until recently has followed the same pattern, where contributions to pensions have been direct and not specifically funded.

I am wondering whether the Minister has any concerns about the position of the province, whether consideration is being given, would be given to creating a funded position rather than following the current procedure, given that there are benefits I think to retiring teachers who may be able to provide thems elves with additional benefits from surplus es which would be at no cost to the province if it was fully funded. Mr.

Derkach: I have to indicate, I find it kind of strange that a former Minister would be raising, after being in Government for some seven years and having every opportunity to remedy a situation, that he is now bringing forth as a problem, which has been there for some 30 years and expecting us to consider it within l six or seven months of administration. I can tell you ' that the Provincial Auditor has not raised the issue of the unfunded portion of the Teachers' Allowances Fund by Government.

Certainly it is not a Crown corporation and is not audited by the Provincial Auditor. lt is in fact audited by an outside audit firm. So for those reasons, the Provincial Auditor has certainly not made specific reference to this as part of the, as the Member suggested, Crown corporation. Mr. Storie: I believe the Provincial Auditor has already referenced the provincial Superannuation Fund, the Civil Service Superannuation Fund. I am not criticizing the Minister for not acting in six months. I will wait for another two months before I do that, but- An Honourable Member: We will probably be here for two months. Mr.

Storie: We probably will be here for two months. The Minister continues to be very defensive when I raise questions or ask questions. I do so not because I am criticizing the Minister. I simply asked whether this was a concern for him, whether it had been raised by the Provincial Auditor. I think there may be many benefits to be had by teachers for changing the status. The Min ister may know or may have forgotten intentionally that the previous Government did address the unfunded liability of certain pension programs and was addressing them in Manitoba Telephone and Manitoba Hydro.

So let it not be said that it was not recognized as a problem. As it turns out, it was not addressed in this circumstance. I was asking the Min ister to consider addressing it. Given that is not being addressed at the present time, move on to another question relating to the pension benefits. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): I believe the Honourable Minister has an opportunity to comment. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, I would just like to ind icate once again for the record that the Provincial Auditor does not audit the Teachers' Allowances Fund and therefore has never made any recommendations to my knowledge about the unfunded portion of the Teachers' Allowances Fund. So in that regard we have nothing specific to respond to in terms of recommendations by the Provincial Auditor.

However, given the situation as it exists and this whole idea of the debt that our whole country may be carrying in terms of the unfunded portion of pensions throughout the count ry, has just been a recent issue, and I think certainly is one that will be addressed in due course. Mr. Storie: I appreciate that it may be in fact addressed in due course and I would just ask the Minister to ack nowledge that in fact the way the provincial contributions are structu red creates on the part of the province an unfunded liability, one which his colleague, before he was Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness), had amassed to a significant figure as an unfunded liability. Certainly whether the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) currently is aware of it, his colleagues have been aware of it and have raised it as a significant problem facing the province. lt seems to have escaped the current Minister but I am not surprised. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairperson, it certainly has not escaped the Minister in any way -(lnterjection) shape or form. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Order. Mr.

Derkach: What I said was that the Provincial Auditor has not pointed to this specific fund as one that is a problem or one that needed to be addressed immediately. Certainly we are concerned about it; it has been brought to our attention. I am not indicating one way or another in terms of what our immediate action on this particular issue is going to be, but I have ind icated to the Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) that we are aware of this and certainly because of the awareness I think thr oughout the countr y about unfunded pension plans and the enormous cost that cert ainly this will be addressed in due course. Mr. Storie: I appreciate those final remarks. A question to the Minister: the teachers' benefits through their 2626

Monday, October 31, 1988 pensions have been under attack by the federal Government. I know that the Minister did receive a letter from the secretary, I believe, or secretary-treasurer of the fund, Mr. Glen Buhr, expressing his concern about the proposed amendment to the Income Tax Act. I know that the Minister received representation from the Teachers' Society and others. I am wondering whether the Minister ever undertook to write personally to the Minis ter of Finance to ind icate his concern about the proposal. Mr.

Derkach: Well, not only did I write to the Min ister of Finance, I have met with the Minis ter of Finance on this specific topic along with several other Ministers and we have dis cussed it at some length. We have not been able to resolve it to this point in time. The whole issue has been shelved, but I have met with the Minister of Finance, I might ind icate, on this issue. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Praznik): Shall the item pass? The Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Storie: The Minister has ind icated that he has written, too.

Would the Minister care to share with the commit tee what sentiments he expressed in the letter? Mr. Derkach: Just a point of clarification, are you referring to the Minis ter of Finance of Canada, or the Minis ter of Finance of Manitoba? Mr. Storie: Both. Mr. Derkach: I am sorry. I misun derstood the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) when he said "his colleague, the Minis ter of Finance." I understood it to be the provincial Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), who I have discussed this issue with. I have not written to Mr. Wilson about this matter at all. As a matter of fact, we had occasion to chat with Mr.

Wilson about the situation and I might indic ate that the matter has been postponed for a period of a year. Certainly that does not resolve it, but it gives us some time to meet with the Manitoba Teachers' Society who certainly have a vested int erest in this, to hear their position and their arguments for it, to take them and discuss them with my colleagues and then act on the matter from there. Mr.

Storie: Well, I am pleased to hear that the Minister acknowledges that the 12 ,000 or 13, 000 teachers who are currently teaching who will be retiring, some in the not too distant future, have something to lose by these proposals. I am a little surprised that the Minis ter of Education (Mr. Derkach), after hearing presentations and I think hearing voices quite clearly expressing concern over the impact of those changes, did not take it upon himself to write to the Minister of Finance federally. I was not suggesting that his colleague, the Minister of Finance of Manitoba (Mr.

Manness), had anything to do with the Income Tax Act, but I am surpr ised that he did not take on that respon sibility himself. *

(2040) Mr. Derkach: My colleagues and I in Government act as a unit, not as ind ividuals who charge off in all sorts of directions. I had ind icated to the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) that my colleagues in our Government have met, have discuss ed this matter. I have brought forth the opinions as they came to us from the Manitoba Teachers' Soci ety. I might indicate to the Member also that we are initiating a meeting between the Minister for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld), the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), myself and the interested Parties to discuss this issue further.

I must also ind icate that the Minis ter of Finance of Manitoba has written to the Minister of Finance, Mr. Wilson, to bring this to his attention and certainly raise some of our concerns with regard to this situation. Mr. Storie: I am pleased to hear that. Perhaps he could enumerate for the commit tee the concerns that the province has. Mr. Derkach: I do not have the letter in front of me. lt certainly was a letter from the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness) to Mr. Wilson and I do not know whether it had an enumerated series of concerns in it. Mr.

Storie: I will just remind the Minister that, and I should say at the outset that it concerns me that the Minister is not aware of what was said by his colleague in respect of this matter because I should remind my colleague, the Minis ter, that his colleague, the Minis ter of Finance, Mr. Manness, was very much opposed to the early retirement provisions when they were introduc ed in the House in 1985. He was, the Minister of Finance was one of several Conservative Members, his colleagues, who opposed this legislation, and to now find that, rather than have the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkac h), who is res ponsible for teachers, supporting the interests of teachers, we have that responsi bili ty passed along to a Member of the Opposition who opposed the legislation in the first place. There are at least two other Treasury Board members who also opposed that legislation, and I would like this Minis ter to assure the commit tee and the teachers of Manitoba that he is prepared to speak up for their 1 interests in this matter and not the interests of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) whose interests have been expressed previously. Mr.

Derkach: Just for the edification of the Member for Flin Flon, I have to tell him that I was not in the Legislature in 19 85 and therefore have no knowledge of what the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) said. If he wants to take issue with the Minister of Finance, I suggest he write to the Minister of Finance and express his concerns to him.

I might also add that it is almost strange to see how this Member has changed from his-he was, as a matter of fact, the Minis ter of Edu cation who I belie ve suggested that teachers should get no incr ease in salaries at one point in time, a position he had to retract from very quickly. This fall I notice that the Member wrote letters to all teachers in Manitoba indicating how concerned he was about this issue, certainly, a very good change of heart. I guess maybe now he has come 2627

Monday, October 31, 1988 to realize the error of his ways, Mr. Acting Chairman, or Chairperson. Mr. Slorie: The Minister has not answered the question, and the question was, why did he choose, or why has he allo wed the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness) to be a spokesperson for the teachers of Manitoba when tha t clearly is his res ponsibi li ty? The Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund comes under the Estimates of the Department of Education.

The responsibility for the Minister to provide adequate pensions, support of pensions, responsibility for changes to provincial support are obviously the responsibility of the Minis ter. My question was why has he not taken an int erest in this? Before the Minister answers, just so that the record is clear, I had never required teachers or suggested that they were required to take zero. I made a proposal tha t the teachers had every right in negotiations to choose or not choose. They made their choice. But the Minis ter should not go around distorting the record.

I think perhaps, if he understood the � proposal, he would not do that but maybe he never , did or did not attempt to understand it. The Minis ter also suggested that he was not in the Legislature in 1985. Perhaps that is good thing because he may be defending a record he did not want to defend, along with some of his colleagues.

The question to the Minis ter is, provisions like the provisions in the Income Tax Act amendments, like the requirement that teachers be of 55 years of age and have a minimum of 25 years' service or be penalized for retirement if those conditions have not been met, is really counterproductive. lt is the antithesis of what was intended by the legislation produced in 1985. I am wondering how this Minister can take such a cavalier attitude towards those amendments? *

(2050) Mr. Derkach: I do not know if I can respond to all of those questions and comments. However, I would like to say to the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) that in � fact I am interested in what happens to teachers' pensions, and not as he indic ates. I have to say that in Government, federal-provincial relations with regard to such things as pensions are not handled by any Minister who wants to charge off into the sunset with a cause. As a matter of fact, there is a way to deal with the situations and, in Government, that is handled by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).

That is the way that we are approaching this issue is in a sensible way whereby we channel our comments through the Minis ter of Finance who then deals with the federal Minister. lt does no good for me, as Min ister of Education, and somebody else as Min ister respo nsible for something else, charging off to the federal Government and putting our issues on the table. There is a better way, a more systematic way, and a way that I think will in the end bring better results in a situation such as this one. This does not only affect teachers.

However, that is the area that I am concerned about. lt also affects other professions. Mr. Storie: I respect the Min ister's in terest in approaching it in a sensible way. I guess what the comm ittee would like to know, what is the sensible way? Is the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) concerned about revenue loss to the province as a result of early retirement? Or is the Minis ter concerned about the welfare of teachers who want to retire with digni ty?

Is the Minis ter of Finance concerned about the loss of revenue to the federal Government or is the Minis ter interested in maintaining the benefits that teachers have won through hard work and negotiations over a long period of time. Perhaps we would feel more comfortable and the teachers of the province would feel more comfortable if we knew what the Minis ter meant by a sensible way. Perhaps he can assist us by answering a few questions. Does the Minis ter support the amendments that were introduced by Mr. Wilson, the amendments to the Income Tax Act?

Does he support the penalty that would be felt by teachers who had less than 25 years of service when they reached the age of 55? Mr. Derkach: As I indicated to the Member before, our respo nsibility in this whole matter is to, first of all, consult with the affected groups. In consulting with them, we have to understand their positions, consider their briefs very carefully. As I have indic ated, we are structuring a meeting for the Teachers' Society with the Minis ters who have respon sibil ity, that being the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness) and the Minis ter of Seniors (Mr.

Neufeld), so that they in fact -and the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery)-will be able to hear what the concerns are of the Teachers' Society and will also have the benefit of asking questions of the Teachers' Society. I think this is a sensible approach.

Ins tead of us taking a position for or against immediately, without knowing what all the details are in the whole process, I think it is better for us to consult with all the organizations that are affected and from there to take the next step, and that is to appr oach the federal Minis ter responsible in terms of what we, as Manitobans, know and how we are going to represent our people best. Mr. Storie: I am intrigued by the Minister's comments about, well, we have to be careful and we have to know what is in the best interest of the membership in the Manitoba Teachers' Society and those who retire.

I have a simple question. lt seems pretty obvious to me, and I think to 13,000 teachers, and probably the 3,900 teachers who are already receiving pension, that something that is intr oduced that penal izes teachers who retire up to five years before they have 20 years of service, at age 55, lose 15 percent of their pension. I do not think it takes a genius to figure out that is a sacrifice that they should not be having to pay. I am wondering what other factors the Min ister is including in his deliberations, or is it, as I suggest, that the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) is afraid that the province is losing revenue, or the federal Minis ter of Finance is conc erned about federal loss of revenue, is that the main consideration? What other factors are there? En lighten us, please. Mr. Derkach: I guess what the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) should do is stop and think in broader 2628

Monday, October 31, 1988 terms. First of all, this was a proposal by the federal Government that was going to affect not only teachers in this province, it was going to affect other members of socie ty. I think if we are going to represent our province fairly and properly, first of all, we have to meet with those groups that are going to be affected and get from them some input. That is why the Teachers' Society, as an example, has put together a fairly substantial and elaborate brief. I am sure that they are still not finished working on the matter.

We know that we have at least another year before that kind of legislation may be reintroduced and so, therefore, we have time to react. As we had indicated in our election campaign, we were going to consult with groups, with organizations, to ensure that we were represe nting them in a fair way when a decision was made. Now, until that whole process is gone through, I am not going to sit here and say that we are taking this position or that position. I am simply going to indic ate that we are consulting with these organizations, we have structured a further meeting with them.

If we had made up our minds tod ay, there would be no point in going ahead with this consultation process, but certainly we want to hear from these organizations what their position is. Then, based on those arguments, based on those presentations, we will be better informed as to our response and our arguments in terms of the situation. Mr. Storie: I quite agree with the Minister if the Minister had made up his mind, if the Minis ter knew which side he was on.

If the Minister was going to supp ort teachers, further meetings would not be required, but it astou nds me that the Minis ter can sit here and pretend that some decision to hold future meetings is an ind ication of interest. The matter should have been decided, the matter should be as clear as crystal clear water to the Minis ter that the in terests of teachers should be protected because they have worked long and hard to develop th ose benefits. The interests of MONA, the interests of registered nurses, the interests of others who work for Government or Government agencies should be protected.

This Minis ter is trying to pretend that there is something else to be discovered from waiting and holding further meetings. I can tell the Minister that the Manitoba Teachers' Society's position is not going to change, nor is the position of Manitoba Organization of Nurses. The fact is that they are opposed unalterably to the proposed changes. They do not support them and the Minister is simply procras tinating for some reason or another which we would like to discover. What is the other factor that we should be considering? What other information does the Minister hope to gain?

Why di d the federal Go vernment propose thes e amend ments? Perhaps the Min ister has some information that we do not have. What was the purpose of the amendments in the first place? *

(2100) I think the purpose was fairly clear. lt had nothing to do with considering the interests of teachers or nurs es or any of the other people whose pension incomes are going to be affected by this. I think it is quite clear. lt was to try to balance the deficit; balance the budget to reduce the deficit on the backs of retired people-exactly like the Tory Government did when tried to de-index the seniors' pensions. My concern is and the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mrs. Hammond) is down there saying, what nonsense. Perhaps we can find from the Minister some shred of a reason for his dithering on this issue.

Can he help us? Mr. Derkach: The gob bledegook that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) puts on the record is certainly just that. Certainly he has changed 18 0 degrees since he has become a Member of the Opposition and I guess that is understandable. But I have to indicate and reiterate that we will not unilaterally go ahead without dis cussing the issue with the affected organizations. We said we would consult and that is what we are going to do. We are going to make sure that we represent the organizations and their views thoroughly.

We are not suggesting they are going to change their minds in terms of the issue at all. I do not think I would expect the Manitoba Teachers' Society to all of a sudden change their views and their position on this issue. (Mr. Chairman in the Chair.) But certainly I think that it is important that they in fact have an opportunity to express their views to the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness) of Manitoba, the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld), and the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Connery), who certainly do have some opinion over this issue and certainly when this issue is going to be addressed in the next year, we have to make sure that we represent Manitobans fairly. In addition, I might say that the federal Government has not postponed this matter for a year for no reason at all. Certainly there have been some considerations that must have come into play that caused them to delay or at least put this matter on hold for a year. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, the Minister has not satisfactorily answered the question.

If he acknowledges, as he just did a few seconds ago, that the Mani toba Teachers' Socie ty, the Manitoba Organization of Nurses Association, MONA, have not changed their opinion and are unlikely to change their opinion because, well, you have seen their brief I hope it was copied on it. I know that you received the information and their position. What we need from this Minister is a rationale for his reluctance- Mr. Chairman: The Honourable Minis ter. Mr. Storie: No, I am sorry, he was in conversat ion, Mr. Chairman, I did not want to interrupt.

We need an explanation for the rationale of the Minis ter to say that his hands are tied. He does not want to get involved in this issue when the financial security of a whole generat ion, generations of teachers is at stake. Amendments are being introduced, were introduced 2629

Monday, October 31, 1988 by the federal Government, which completely contradict everything the teachers and the previous Governments, and Governments before that, have worked for. I do not understand what other issues there might be brought to the Minister's attention which would require this del ay. Why did he not state his stand on the issue? Why can he not take a public stand now? I have asked the questions more specifical ly, what is he opposed to? Does the Minis ter not object to a proposal which might reduce the pensionable earnings of a teacher by 15 percent?

Is the Minister not sensitive to the fact that there are all kinds of people out there who enter the work force late, who do not get their teaching degree until they are 35, or get their teaching degree when they are young but interrupt their careers to have families? Does the Minis ter have no sympathy for tho se kinds of people? Does the Minister object to people interrupting their careers to pursue other interests and not being able to achieve 25 years of service? Are any of those things objectionable in and of themselves? If not, what is it that makes this Minister hesitate?

I think that the Education community deserves a response. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I will not take the narrow minded approach that the Member for Flin Flon (Storie) is taking. Certainly, he is now on a crusade, but certainly we are going to approach the matter in a diligent and a sensible way. I had ind icated to the Member that we will be meeting with the organizations that are affected, and we will be discussing the issue with him. We are not avoiding the matter whatso ever.

As a matter of fact, I ind icated that I have already met with the Manitoba Teachers' Society on this issue and we are going to be convening a meeting with other Ministers with them. We will probably be meeting with MONA and with the other organizations that are affected by this proposed change. Also, I might indic ate we will probably be, through our Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), meeting the federal Minister of Finance once the election is over and discussing this very important issue. �Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, the Minister's mind is seve rely addle-pated.

He seems to be saying on the one hand he knows the position of the teachers and the nurses, he knows it is not going to change- Mr. Derkach: I did not say the nurses. Mr. Storie: I have not heard him deny that the proposal is going to interfere unduly with the pension income, potentially of thousands of Manitoba teachers.

I am wondering what other information he has to share with teachers, what other information the Minister of Finance has to share with teachers or nurses that might affect the way they view this problem, and if he cannot specify or indi cate that there is something that might change their mind, why would he not just then take a position? He seems reluctant to take a position in support of something that is clearly detrimental to thousands of people.

I could talk about some of the other provisions which this proposed amendment will impact upon; the right of teachers to take leaves, to interrupt their careers, some issues of portability and transferability of pensions. There are at least a half dozen other areas that the Teachers' Society and Mr. Buhr identified for the Minis ter. I am wondering if any of those arguments that have been presented were preposterous or did not reflect genuine concerns. Is there anything in their arguments that the Minister found unacceptable? Mr.

Derkach: Well, I do not know how many times we are going to chew this matter over, but I will just continue answering in the way that I have; that is, that certainly I have not met with MONA, and I have not discus sed with them what their concerns are. My meetings have been with the Manitoba Teachers' Society and I under stand their proposals, in that teachers who have had to leave the profession for reasons of rearing a family and then coming back to the teaching field, and certainly I understand that concern. I have indicated that we will continue to listen to the organizations that come before us.

We will consult with them. There will be a two-way kind of communi cation in this whole matter. We still have lots of opportunity to discuss that and when we have done that, we will certainly indicate our position on the matter to the federal Minis ter of Finance. We will do it through the appropriate channels. We will do it as a Government. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson, I am afraid to say that the word "consult" is taking on pejorative overtones when used by this Minister. Mr. Derkach: You did not understand that word when you were in Government, did you? Mr. Storie: Pejorative? Mr. Derkach: No, "consult." Mr.

Storie: Well, it is taking on rather negative tones as far as the Minister seems to be concerned. He says he is going to continue to consult. I am not sure the point of it, given that the brief has been presented. lt is quite clear, quite succinct. There is no chance of the teachers or any of the other organizations changing their view because they are correct. What they may be waiting for, if there is going to be consultation, is some differing opinions that would be shared with them by the Minis ter. This Minister has not been able to do that for this comm ittee.

He does not seem to have any concrete reason for not thr owing his support behind, for not writing, not supporting their interest. He has not been able to, at least, present any rationale for his dithering on this issue. He is still ready to consult, but he does not know what about. He has not been able to share with us what his concerns are. I would ask him a simple quest ion. What is the purpose of the income tax amen dme nts and the regulation amendments? What is the purpose of them? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I think that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) should probably address that issue with the federal Minis ter of Finance because it 263 0

Monday, October 31, 1988 is the federal Minister of Finance who is proposing the changes and not the provincial Government. Mr. Storie: The Minister did not answer the question. Either I have to assume, either he does not know what the intention was, or like most of his colleagues, he would be embarrassed to tell the reason publicly. The reason th ey were intr od uced, for the Min ister's information, was to save money from the public treasury, and to do so on the backs of retiring teachers and retiring nurses, and others who serve Government agencies. That was the purpose.

This Minister and his colleague, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and his colleague, the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld) is not prepared to stand up for those people. There is no other reason. The Minister can be as obscurantist as he likes, there is no other rationale. He has not been able to put one solid rational reason for opposing, for not supporting the teachers immediately upon learning of the plans of his federal col leagues. He does so out of obligation to a federal sister, brother Party.

He does so out of obligations to their political objective, and he does so over the objections of thousands of teachers and other concerned Manitobans. The Minister would like us to believe that somehow this consultation process, this further discussion is going to lead somewhere. I can say quite clearly, given the Minis ter's response tonight, that it is not leading anywhere. He is not going to announce any support for the teachers or for those pensioners from 1990 or '91 on.

That fact is reflected in the comments made by his colleague when he spoke on the resolution I introduced, calling on the federal Government to halt this process. 1 want to read into the record a statement of the Minis ter respon sibl e for Seni ors (Mr. Neuf eld) Wednesd ay, September 7, 1988. He said, the federal Government has, in fact, deferred their timetable in bringing in this legislation, but it is not because they feel that there was anything wrong with the legislation. They have deferred it because of a complexity in writing the legislation.

They felt that some time would give them a better time to write the legislation. I have even got a better explanation and probably three quarters of the people or all of the teachers and three quarters of the people in Manitoba also have a better explanation, if there was a federal election on the horizon and they did not want 12, 000 Manitoba teachers and x number of hundreds of thousands of other nurses and teachers and civil servants focusing on another piece of legislation designed to deny retiring people a decent living. That is the explanation.

The Minis ter is sitting here pret ending that there could be no- there is no other purpose for his dithering, other than the need to consult, is not convincing anyone. If he was here to convince people, he would have an explanation. He would have some specifics that he could lay on the table and say, here are my concerns. The purpose of the legislation was to take money from the pockets of retiring people. That is the purpose of it. If this Minister had the inter est of teachers at 2631 heart, he would take a stand. He would do so tod ay. He would have done so back when this legislation was first introduc ed.

He would not accept from his federal colleagues a suggestion that this delay is somehow a rethinking on their part. lt is a politically-motivated delay. If we have a Tory Government, if we are unfortunate enough to have one, we will have an attack on the pension of teachers. * (21 10) Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Derkach: If I could just respond, if the Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) the only political rhetoric I have heard is the gobbledegook from this Member in this last statement, but I would like him to subs tantiate his statement about the fact that the intention of the federal Government-a nd he said that this is a known fact was to take money from retiring teachers to fight a defic it- and that is not the quote-but if he has that information from the federal Government, we would certainly appreciate him sharing it with us because we do not have tha t information from the federal Government, Mr. Chairman.

I ind icated to him before that this is not a matter which we want to make a political football of. We want to ensure that we lis ten to those people who are going to be affected by the legislation and hear their views on it, and that is appropriate. Of course, the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) is so narrow-minded he never did consult with anybody. He just bulldozed his way through until somebody slapped him across the nose.

That was an indic ation when he tried to tell teachers in this province that they were not going to have any increase in salary but were going to take zero percent, and when the teachers kind of told him where to get off, he realized that he had better back off, better retract, do the backstroke. That is not the way this Government operates. This Government is going to operate in a prudent way. We are going to consult with individuals who are going to be affected by the legislation and then, and only then, will we be able to make representation to the federal Government as a province. Mr.

Storie: The fact of the matter is that I have not been laying gobble degook. I have been quite specific about the changes and their impact on teachers' pensions. The Minister has not been specific about his concerns. He knows what the concerns are. They have been laid out for him by several groups quite specifical ly, including the secretary-treasurer of the Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund Board, an expert in his field, a person who understands the implications of the tax change.

If the Min ister can suggest another rationale for the proposed amendments to the Income Tax Act, I would certainly like to hear them. I do not believe there is any other conclusion one can draw. The remarks of his own Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld) ind icate that is the case, and

Monday, October 31, 1988 whether the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) - and I am surprised he would admit that he knows nothing about this issue or nothing about the amendments that are proposed . Perhaps I should not be surprised, but he indicates that . The Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr.

Neufeld) on Wednesday, September 7, 1988, said, " I would like to start by laying down some facts that have not yet been laid down about the proposed changes to the Income Tax Act ." And he goes on to indicate that his concern is the fact that the pensions that are received by teachers and others, publicly supported pensions , cost money. That is the concern, the concern of the Minister responsible for Seniors . If that is not indicative of the attitude of this Government and their federal counterparts , I do not know what is. Now, the Minister said that my-it is gobbledegook .

Then it behooves the Minister to tell this committee what the motivation for those changes was, if it was not to reduce the cost of pensions for Government , the federal Government. If he can offer some explanation which is reasonable , I certainly am willing to listen . The Minister suggested that I have not consulted , that I took this on as some sort of crusade . I can tell the Minister that I met with representatives of the Manitoba Teachers ' Society . I met with individuals who at that time were on the Manitoba Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund Board .

I met with other individuals who have a lot more knowledge about the pension benefits and the effect that these amendments are going to have on those benefits than the Minister has. I did not take it on as a crusade until I understood what the implications were, until I also understood what the motivation of the Government proposing the amendments was and , believe me, it was not anything to be proud of. The Minister can throw darts at me as much as he likes . The fact is he has not taken a stand at all and he has failed to understand that this issue is important to thousands and thousands of people.

They deserve his support. If they do not get his support, ) they are going to be extremely disappointed and maybe some of his colleagues will be disappointed as well. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman , I guess I could say that my respons ibility as Minister of Education is to ensure that I do hear the view of the teachers of this province who are going to be affected by it. I have talked on many occasions with teachers, not only who are on the executive of the Teachers ' Society but certainly with teachers who are out in the field .

My responsibility is to represent their views certainly to my other colleagues in Cabinet and to our Government. Certainly I will do that . In doing that, I want to ensure that these teachers , through their society, have an opportunity also to make their views known to the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld) who spoke on the issue, to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) , to the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery), so that they understand precisely the position of the Teachers' Society and of the teachers who are going to be affected by the legislation .

I know that there are members of other organizations who are affected by this same situation. My immediate responsibility is to my department and certainly the teachers who come before me from across Manitoba . I will represent them and give them every opportunity to be heard on this particular issue . Our Government will certainly take this matter to the federal Government. Mr. Storie: I can see, Mr. Chairperson, that I am beating my head against-I was going to say a brick wall but it is probably a brick head . The Minister says he wants to give the teachers an opportunity to be heard .

I thought I had been trying to tell the Minister that the teachers should have been heard a long time ago . Their message was plain and simple and easily understood . Given them an opportunity to be heard once more to give him the same message in exactly the same way, drawing exactly the same conclusions , is not going to help anyone . The teachers did not need another opportunity to be heard , nor did the nurses , nor did any of the others affected . What they needed was a voice around the provincial Cabinet who was prepared to stand up and say, this is not right. That is what they were looking for.

They did not get it. I am sure there will be repercussions . Mr. Chairperson , the issue of teachers' pension is extremely important to Manitobans and I am assuming that this Minister will be making himself available to teachers should this item come back on the agenda, which it is likely to do. Can the Minister indicate today whether he is likely to stand on the sidelines should the federal Government decide to reintroduce these amendments at another date? *

(2120) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairperson , if the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) had been listening through our discussions , our answers, he would have heard that in fact the matter is not resolved, the matter is not dead , and that I will be meeting again with the Teachers' Society, with teachers of the province, and that we will be consulting with the teachers by giving them an opportunity to meet with the four Ministers who have some responsibility provincially over this matter .

Once we have met with the teachers and the other groups that are affected we certainly will be making representation to the federal Minister . Mr. Storie: We may actually be getting somewhere. The Minister has now said he is going to make representation to the federal Minister after further consultations . If the Minister will just humour me for a second and assume that the message from the Teachers' Society, etc ., is the same, what message will the Minister be communicating to the federal Minister? Mr. Derkach: I have no intentions of humouring the silly Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie).

All I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, or tell the Members of this committee through you is that we are not making any decision at this particular time , because there would be no purpose for meeting with the organizations . Certainly then it would be a confrontation rather than a consultation. We want to ensure that this process is consultative and 2632

Monday, October 31, 1988 that we have an open mind to the issue. That is the way we are approaching it at this time and will continue to approach it. Mr. Storie: I am disappointed that the Minis ter did not humour me. If he perhaps would not have said anything, it would have been better for him. He simply is making it worse for himself. He is now saying that if he does not meet it will be viewed as confronta tion? The Minister says, if his mind was made up, it would be confrontation.

Well, of course if his mind was made up as it should be made up that the issue of the teachers and those who opposing these changes was right, if he was defen ding the interest of teachers there would not be any confrontation, it would be a love-in and it should be because this issue is important to teachers. The teachers, I think, and others have a legitimate bee f-this Minister defending the indefensible. He is defending a move to reduce the deficit on the backs of retiring teachers. lt is that simple. Mr.

Derkach: Simply, I will reiterate for the Member's information that the reason for our consulta tion meetings is the fact that we want to hear and understand exactly what they have to say. I have said this half a dozen times, I think, this evening. Certainly that is our major intent. lt is not going to be a love-in but neither is it going to be a confrontational process. I ind icated before, had the Member been listening, that if our minds had been made up to say, yes, we suppo rt whol eheartedly the position take by the federal Government, then the meetings would be confrontational.

We have not indicated that whats oever. Instead, we have said we will listen with open minds to what teachers, to what other organizations have to say. That is a position I will maintain regardless of what the Member for Flin Flon has to say about the matter. He may try to draw all kinds of silly conclusions from what I have to say. The bottom line is that we will lis ten to teachers. We will represent them fair ly. We will lis ten to other organizations with open minds. Mr.

Storie: The Minister, if I understand him correctly, is going to lis ten to teachers and he is going to hear what they have to say and he is going to understand what they are saying. The implication of that is, because he has already heard, is that he does not understand. That is a rather pathetic admission. I do not know that there is any need to pursue this any further. I think the Minis ter has made his intentions very clear by refusing to make a commitment.

I do not expect the teachers or anybody else who has heard or lis tened to this debate will hold out any expectation that the Minister will act on their behalf, regardless of how many times he hears the message. A couple of other questions on the Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund. How many staff are there operating the Retirement Allowance Fund? Mr. Derkach: The employees are not lis ted here. As a matter of fact, they are employees of the fund and are paid for by the teachers' contributions. Mr.

Storie: Does that include the executive secretary who from time to time has been here to answer questions on the fund? Mr. Derkach: Yes, it does include the secretary. I regret to say that they are not here this evening. Mr. Storie: The good news is we probably will not get past this, because that was my next question. I would like to ask, request, that the secretary of the fund be available so that we may direct some specific questions to someone who, as opposed to the Minister , is knowledgeable about the impact of these changes to the pensions of teachers. Mr.

Buhr is someone who I have a great deal of respect for and I know will answer both candidly and with some knowledge the issues that have been addressed . Perhaps we can get to the bottom of what the impact of the federal Income Tax Act amendments would be. I know the Minister is consulting with staff and I can say I know from personal experience that Mr. Buhr has been here before, has responded to questions.

I do not think the Minis ter is going to object if we ask someone who is knowledgeable about this issue, which is important and he has acknowledged it, to answer questions which are obviously beyond the Minis ter's depth. Mr. Derkach: The Member has gotten into Opposition and has forgotten the rules of the game. First of all, it is the Minister who responds and not members of staff. Second ly, Mr. Buhr is not a member of staff, he is a member of the Teachers' Allowances Fund Board and will not answer questions.

The questions that the Member has are to be put through the Chair to the Minister, and I will respond to those questions. If there is information that the Member wants, we will get that information from him, but certainly it is not a practice of ours to have a member of the Teachers' Retirement Allo wance Fund Board or the secretary here to answer questions of the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). If he wants to address questions with regard to the Statutory Boards and Commissions and with regard to the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund Board, then I will answer those questions for him. Mr.

Storie: I recognize that is tradition, but it is quite obvious this Minister knew nothing about the Income Tax Act amendments or the implications of those amendments. He seemed to know very little about the concerns that Mr. Buhr had raised with him. He seemed to know very little about the concern that teachers had. He could not enunciate any of their concerns. He could not respond to any concerns of his own about the briefs that have been presented to him. My assumption was that perhaps we could have somebody who knew some thing answer some questions.

If the Minister is saying he would rather sit beside someone and parrot answers, then of course we will let him do that. That is his prerogative, but I had assumed that he too was looking for some edification, some enlightenment on these matters. Mr. Ch airman: On a point of order, the Member for Kirkfield Park. 2633

Monday, October 31, 1988 Mrs. Gerrie Hammond (Kirkfield Park): It seems to me when I was the critic for Education that is exactly what the former Minister of Education did . To suggest that it is parroting answers , certainly no one is expected to know every answer . I would suggest that the former Member did exactly that and I hope that he would not suggest that a Minister would come in or anyone would come in, knowing every little question that could be thought of and not have staff there to help out.

I really take offense at the way the Member has conducted his questioning, implying that he knows everything and no one else knows anything . Possibly, if that was what had happened, he would still be in the place that he was before . Mr. Chairman: I thank Honourable Members for their input . It is not a point of order. *

(2130) Mr. Storie: I would like to thank the Member for her point of order as well and I want to indicate to the Minister through you, Mr. Chairperson, that I did not suggest that I knew everything . I am just astounded that this Minister appears to know nothing . I ask the question again , is the Minister prepared to allow Mr. Buhr to come before the committee and respond to specific questions about the implications of the Act or, if the Minister is not prepared to countenance that kind of departure from committee practice , then perhaps he will at least consent to have Mr.

Buhr present at our meeting tomorrow so that we can pursue this in more detail? Mr. Derkach: I would like to tell this Member once and for all that he should perhaps wake up and understand what the Estimates process is all about. He has not asked any specific questions . All he has done all evening has been to filibuster the process in putting rhetoric on the record and he has repeated it at least six times , the same thing over and over. He has not been substantive in his questioning and , if he were, we would answer the questions .

All he has done 1 l is put political rhetoric on the record for no other ,, purpose than politics, and I think it is time that he perhaps would get his senses together, get his act together , and ask some substantive questions that can be answered . No, Mr. Chairman, we will not have Mr. Buhr or anybody of that nature come before this committee and answer questions . If there are questions to be answered , I will answer those questions . If the Member would so choose , he can start asking some substantive questions that have some meaning to them and are relevant to this particular line, and we will answer them .

Otherwise. I suggest that he get off the issue. Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson , I am rather taken aback by the Minister's position . I thought I had been asking • rather specific questions. I asked the Minister to enunc iate the concerns that were addressed to him by the Teachers ' Society with respect to the changes that were proposed by the federal Government in the Income Tax Act. Could the Minister outline the concerns as raised by the Manitoba Teachers ' Society for us? I have asked that several times.

I have asked the Minister -whether he objected to any of those concerns or had any comments on the nature of those concerns . He has refused to answer. It is not me who has been filibustering . The Minister did not answer any of the quest ions that were posed . He answered them with rhetoric. He answered them with I will consult, I want to listen . He has had that opportunity . I am sorry that he is frustrated . Perhaps if he came with some answers, he would not be nearly so frust rated . Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, in a general sense, I think the concerns are quite straightforward .

The Members knows them because certainly teachers have written the concerns to him as well. That is the fact that the teachers who have not had the 25 years of service or the combination to make up the 80 years figure will not be eligible for the early retirement . Secondly, it affects those people who had to take soine time off to rear a family. They will find it very difficult, almost impossible to get the required years of service or the required amount of service to get the early retirement benefits .

For the Member 's edification , I will tomorrow get a copy of the letter from the Teachers ' Society and I will read it into the record so in fact the Member will be very much aware of the specific concerns as they were enunciated by the Teachers Society . Mr. Storie: I am sure that will be a good start. I had also asked the Minister , given his reluctance to take a stand on this issue, to identify his concerns with the position that had been enunciated by the teachers . They have written and they have told you what their concerns are.

They are straightforward , they are simple, they are understandable, they are correct . They reflect genuine problems with the proposal that his colleague , the federal Minister of Finance , introduced by way of legislation . They are very specific . What we need to know from the Minister is why he will not respond . If the Minister is prepared to list the concerns for the committee, perhaps he will , as he will have an opportunity this evening and tomorrow , list as well his concerns with the proposals as addressed .

What is preventing the Minister from saying categorically and quickly, yes, I support your concerns and I am prepared to take them forward not only to my colleagues but to the federal Minister of Finance? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman , I have indicated that I understand what the concerns of the teachers are. We have taken them into consideration and certainly we have discussed them at a meet ing that we had with the Teachers ' Society .

I have also indicated that we will continue to consult with the teachers and provide them an opportunity-if the Member would like to write this down , perhaps then he would remember-and that we will provide an opportunity for the Teachers' Society and other groups to meet with the four Ministers who are responsible for this particular issue. I have indicated , until that time comes where we have met and consulted properly with these organizations , we are not prepared to make any rash statements, as 2634

Monday, October 31, 1988 the Member would like us to do, on this issue. We are not going to do that regardless of whether he sits here for the next 20 hours and asks the same questions over and over. We will not take that position until we have properly consulted with these organizations. I am afraid that may not be satisfactory to the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), but certainly that is an approach that we have indicated we are going to take and we are going to continue along that path. Mr.

Bill Uruski (lnterlake): In just sitting here for the last half hour or so and listening to the debate and just so I would be a bit clearer about the Minister's answers, I understood from the Min ister that he indicated that he has already met with the Teachers' Society regarding their concerns about this proposal. Although he has not ind icated after hearing them out whether he has any concerns with their proposal or he has raised any questions, he has not ind icated that and he is going to continue to consult.

Can the Minis ter ind icate what he sees in terms of the process as to further consultation vis-a-vis the proposal that has been made to him by the Teachers' Socie ty, if he has no position on this issue? Maybe he has told the Teachers' Society that he has some concerns either with the proposal, with the federal proposal and, if he has, perhaps he would want to share it with Members of the committee. Mr. Derkach: As I indicated, that consultation process is not comp lete yet. Until we complete the process, I have ind icated to your colleague, the Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie), that we are going to meet with the four Ministers and the Teachers' Society plus the other organizations that are affected. Until those meetings have been comp leted and until we have had an opportunity for other Minis ters to answer questions, our position is certainly going to be one of an open mind to ensure that we can approach this matter and then represent those organizations in a fair and practical way. Mr. Uruski: I am just trying to facilitate and understand a bit. The Minis ter has ind icated that the Teachers' Society has put their position forward to them and raised their concerns.

Does the Minister, in terms of future meetings, has he raised with the Teachers' Society additional areas that he needs clarification on as to their submis sion to him as the follow-up consultation to them to that issue? I am trying to understand myself. If they have put forward a position that is fairly clear and concise, what is at issue in terms of further consultation that is required for the Minister to make up his mind with his colleagues? That is what I do not understand from the Minister's comments. Perhaps he can clarify them. Mr.

Derkach: The reason that we have structured a meeting with the other Ministers who are responsible for this issue is for them to get a better understan ding of the teachers' position per se. I do not think it is fair for me to try and recap the teachers' position without giving them the opportun ity. That is why we are Government. That is why we are representing the people is so that we can be acces sible to them for them to bring their concerns to us as a Government, and then to be able to also ask questions of th ose organizations that come forth.

I do not know what kinds of questions the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery) or the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld) or the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) may have with regard to this issue. Certainly, I want to give the Teachers' Society the opportunity to come before them, present their case and have th ose Ministers as well ask questions of the teachers with respect to their positions on this issue.

Certainly, there are questions that they may want to ask. * (214 0) I think it is only fair that ins tead of me attempting to be the spokesman for the Teachers' Society at this kind of a meeting, it is only fair that we give the Teachers' Society the opportunity to respond in a direct way to these Minis ters. I say it is not an intent on the part of this Government to stall the issue or to skate around it. lt is a matter of, in a practical way, consulting with these organizations to ensure that we represent them fairly.

My whole interest in this entire matter is to ensure that teachers have a fair hearing before us as a Government, so that all questions can be put on the table, so that all opinions can be put on the table, and then we will make representation and discussions will be held with the federal Government. I have to say that the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness) did write to the Minister of Finance of the federal Government to ind icate that we have concerns and questions that we would like to address, but certainly we want to be able to hear from the people who are going to be affected first.

I do not see anything wrong with this process, especially when we have another year at our disp osal to be able to deal with this issue, and it is an important issue and one that cannot be taken lightly. I think that if we were to try and plunge ahead without much thought or consideration, considering all aspects of it- because certainly the legislation is not only going to affect, for example, teachers and nurses, it is going to affect all Manitobans. Certainly, it is going to affect them long into the future, and we want to ensure that we are fair to the residents of this province. Mr. Uruski: Mr.

Chairman, has the Minis ter asked his department for their advice on this issue in terms of how the department views the Teachers' Society submission and their advice to the Minister? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, certainly we have had discussions within the department about this issue and we have, as I ind icated about an hour and a half ago, gone to a meeting of the four Ministers who were involved and certainly had a discussion on it. However, we were relieved to know that there was still another year before this legislation would be reintroduced.

Given that we are now in Estimates and Ministers have been extremely busy, we have scheduled some meetings as soon as possible to deal with the affected groups. As I ind icated before, no decisions have been made with 2635

Monday, October 31, 1988 regard to the situation to this point in time in terms of how we are going to approach the matter with the federal Government. I think, as I ind icated before, we want to ensure that we approach the whole matter with an open mind. Mr. Uruski: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister ind icate who actually is the lead Minister on this issue in terms of preparing a decision or recommendation to his colleagues on this issue? Are you the proponent on behalf of the teachers in this issue as it affects them, or are you basically one of the Ministers involved in the broader issue.

If so, if you are not the lead Minister, would it not be your role to act as an advocate on behalf of the teachers in this whole area, whether it be the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) who has likely the broader responsibility for pensions and to act as the teachers' advocate in this whole area? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I am the proponent in terms of the position of the Teachers' Society and cert ainly on behalf of the teachers of the province to make representation to the group of Cabinet that is meeting, and that is the Mi ni ster of Labour (Mr. Connery), the Minis ter responsible for Seniors (Mr.

Neufeld), and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). With regard to making representation to the federal Government, that falls under the jurisdiction, as I ind icated some time ago, under federal-provincial relations, and certainly that matter falls on the shoulders of the Minister of Finance. However, he does not act uni laterally and certainly it will be a Government decision based on, I think, some very serious and thoughtful considerations and dis cussions that will take place over the next while. Mrs. Yeo: I think that the Member for lnterlake (Mr. Uruski) used the term "debate" very loosely.

I have found it somewhat amusing to sit back and lis ten to the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) debating, if you will, with the Minis ter of Education (Mr. Derkach) and it reminds me of sitting at home and watching my two � Schn auzers trying to decide who was going to be the , winner of the pillow with which they enjoy playing on many occasions. I think perhaps it was interesting sitting here listening to these two jousting together, perhaps even more int eresting than it would have been had I left and enjoyed listening to the Premier of Quebec as he chatted with the other Members of the Liberal caucus.

I am not sure if either the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) or the Member for Roblin- Russell (Mr. Derkach) were in the House this afternoon to listen to the discussion on the resolution set forward by the Member for Flin Flon, but I certainly did. I listened on September 7 to the Minis ter responsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld) and was somewhat floored by much of the statements that he made, and today I was equally floored by the statements by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery), and later on by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).

I had the feeling that the Minis ter of Finance was severely rapping the knuckles of those women who chose to go out to work in the work force. I felt as 2636 though I should be apologetic for having all my life had the good fortune of having the support of a husband who would say sure, if you want to practise your profession, go right ahead. I have spoken with MONA, who represent the 8,500-plus nurses in the Province of Manitoba, and they do have concerns about the federal Government's income tax amendments.

I have also met on several occasions with members of the Manitoba Teachers' Society and they, too, have a great number of concerns and I am pleased to have heard the Minister repeat over and over and over again how very concerned he was. I assu me, from his statement, that he has sometime in the past met with some members from MTS and that his intention is that he and his colleagues are planning to meet with MTS in the future to look at some sort of a brief or letter, or some formulation to send to the Minister, the federal Minister of Finance. * (115 0) I would hope that the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) would have the lead positi on-! cannot remember how the Member for lnterlake (Mr. Uruski) used the term. I would be very concerned if either the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), the Minis ter of Labour (Mr. Connery), or the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Neuf eld), were the lead individuals and I can only hope that my faith in the Minis ter of Education will be upheld and that he, in fact, will take a firmer stand and be more sup portive of MTS and their concerns. Can the Mini ster tell the comm ittee if he has established a date to meet with the teachers and, if he has not, what are his plans?

Will it be within the next couple of weeks? Will he wait until after Nov. 21 and then put the meeting on hold, or what are his intentions? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, this is an important issue to me, there is no question about it. I think it goes without saying that I did not meet with the teachers just to put them off. I met with them because certainly I was concerned about their plight and certainly their position on this issue, in the full recognition that this was going to be affecting many of the women who are in the workforce. Certainly I must ind icate to the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs.

Yeo) that I have a wife who works and certainly she has taken time off from her work to raise a family and cert ainly I supp orted her in her efforts to go back to work. Although she has a business of her own, it is the very same situation whereby we respect the mem bers of our society to all find gainful employment and to be able to be treated fairly when it comes to such things as pension benefits in the long term.

The reason that I felt that it was important for the Teachers' Society to meet with the other Ministers is that I think they have something to say about pension benefits and about the legislation that has been proposed and I think it is only fair that the other Ministers who are responsible for this very important

Monday, October 31, 1988 issue have an opportunity to hear from the Teachers' Society directly and then be able to pose questions of them. In terms of the time frame for the meeting, although we have talked about when we can

schedule the meeting, it is at this point in time a little difficult to get all the Ministers together at one time and there are so many groups that want to meet with us. We have not met for the first time. A specific date has not been set yet, but certainly there is an intention to have this matter dealt with as quickly as possible. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks we will have an opportunity to meet with the Teachers' Society and to dis cuss this very important issue. Mrs. Yeo: I hope that the Teachers' Society will have faster access to the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) than the Liberal Education critic had. lt took me some three-plus months to find a time and then I think my meeting date was scheduled for 7:30 in the morning, something like that. I appreciate that the Minister is very busy. I also appreciate the fact that these other Ministers may have something to say and I think that is a quote from the Minister of Education. I would be more concerned that they are also as capable of listening effective ly, because I think that I have heard what they had to say and I was concerned that they were coming to the floor of the Assembly with a mind set.

I would hope that they would back off and say okay, let us really listen to what the members of the Manitoba Teachers' Society have to say and perhaps listen to the members from MONA because they also have a great deal to offer, stating their concerns for this particular change in the income tax reform. Mr. Derkach: Yes, certainly those points are well noted and 1 know the Member had difficulty in getting to see me back in the early part of the Session.

However, I must say, once she brought it to my attention that she was trying to get in to see me, it was just a matter of a day or so before she was able to get in and talk to me, or perhaps a couple of days at the most. My office is open to all individuals to come and meet with me and certainly we try to

schedule those meetings as quickly as we can. As a matter of fact, I have to indic ate that yes, our day does start very early and at 7:30 in the morning we are in the office and trying to accommodate as many groups as humanly possible. However, we know that we cannot accommoda te everybody quickly or overnight. The meeting for the Teachers' Society and the Ministers will take place just as quickly as we can convene it. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Storie: Following up on the comments made by my colleague from Sturgeon Creek (Mrs.

Yeo), I also read into the record some of the comments made by the Minis ter respo nsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld). I have heard on previous occasions the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) speak on this issue, have had a report on his comments tod ay, and I also drew the conclusion very quickly that the meeting that is being scheduled is not to address the teachers' concerns but perhaps will be used as an opportunity for other Members, as this Minis ter suggested, to put their views on the table.

Views which very clearly are not supp ortive of the teachers position, in fact, run diametrically opposed to their position. Certainly, unless there is some opening of minds, some conscientious undertaking on their part to be more open-minded about the impact of these amendments, then it will be a waste of time and effort on everyone's part. The Minister has not answered the question I do not think satisfactorily addressed by my colleague, the Member for the lnterlake (Mr. Uruski), or the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs.

Yeo), when it comes to his support for the proposals and support of the concerns that were raised by the Teachers' Society. Is he going to be an advocate among his colleagues? If he fails to convince his col leagues, is he prepared to take it one step further and ind icate that he will be addressing the Minister responsible for this Act directly, and that is the federal Minister of Finance? Just so the record is clear, I want to ind icate that the other areas of concern that have been raised by the Teachers' Socie ty, the Canad ian Teachers' Federation and Mr.

Buhr of the Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund Board. They include benefits which would be negatively affected, early retirement benefits, in flation adjustme nt benefits, optional forms of pensions, interplan transfers and reciprocal agreements, past service contributions and pre-retirement death benefits. The Minister has ind icated that he would be getting a list of those, and I would be asking the Minister to take this opportunity to canvass his colleagues, the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld), the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), the Minister of Labour (Mr.

Connery), to identify for this comm ittee any major concerns that those Members have, and the Minis ter seems to be relying heavily on their judgment, with respect to the concerns of the teachers or the nurses. What we need to do, I think, is to get some ind ication of where this Minis ter stands on those issues and what is likely to become of the subsequent meetings with these groups. Certainly his responses to th ose questions may give us an ind ication of whether there is likely to be any tangible support from this Minister on those questions. Mr. Derkach: 11 looks like we are back where we were an hour ago.

But for the benefit of the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), I will tell him again that the purpose of the meeting is not for Ministers to have their views heard by the Teachers' Society, rather it is for the Teachers' Society to speak directly with the Ministers that have respons ibility over this issue, as I have ind icated on several occasions before. Each of those issues will be addressed at that mee ting that are outlined in the letter, and that the Member just outlined. At that point in time, the discussion will take place, and I am sure will be a very fruitful discussion.

Unfortunately, the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) will not be invited to that particular session. 11 is just a Government kind of meeting with the Manitoba 2637

Monday, October 31, 1988 Teachers' Society. So I guess the Member will just have to wait patiently for the outcome. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass?. The hour being ten o'cl ock, what is the will of the comm ittee? Committee rise. SUPPLY -HEALTH *

(2000) Mr. Chairman, Mark Minenko: Order, please. Sections continuing to consider the Estimates of the Department of Health, we are presently considering item 1. (d)

(1) Research and Planning: Salaries-the Honourable Member for Kildonan. Mr. Gulzar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Chairperson, under the heading of Medical Manpower, could the Minister tell us what is going to be the impact of the � Free Trade Agreement on medical manpower? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): None. Mr. Cheema: The imp act from the Free Trade Agreement on medical manpower is not clear, for it is not clear that a U.S. company could set up a Canadian operation such as an emergency centre or surgical centres.

If so, they could be still stopped by the U.S. professionals who do not meet Canadian licensing and certification requirements by receiving benefits from a U.S. parent company. According to the free trade negotiation of this interp retation of the agreement, however, the U.S. position would have to meet the Canadian requirement. The enforcement of the se standards on a large scale could prove to be extremely difficult. Does the Minis ter view this as a possible threat for the planning of medical manpower in Manitoba? Mr. Orchard: No, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Cheema: In the Free Trade Agreement, there could .. be an influx of temporary health professionals and that , could have a serious effect, distorting the medical manpower in Manitoba and other parts of this countr y. As well, it is still unclear if we would have the ability to define competency specifically as it relates to the health care professionals. Can the Minis ter tell this House if his manpower planning study will address this issue of competence? Mr.

Orchard: In terms of manpower in Manitoba for the delivery of medicine, before any physician who is not educated in Manitoba and passed, of course, the Manitoba exams-now, I should be cautious here because I believe if you graduate from a medical school in Saskatoon or Edmonton or a Canadian medical school, you can practise medicine or can achie ve the right to practise medicine in Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, anyone who comes from outside the boundaries of Canada must meet and pass appropriate accreditation exams in medicine- medical doctors. I am sure my honourable friend knows about that.

In terms of the professional standards for almost all other disciplin es in the del ivery of medicine, there are professional associations established for various disciplin es of nursing, all of which set standards which have to be met before an individual is allowed to practise. That exists today without free trade. That will exist tomorr ow with free trade and will have no impact on medical manpower.

The impact we have had on medical manpower in terms of our relationship with our neighbours to the South has been our manpower, our trained and skilled manpower if you will, both in the medical profession and the nursing profession leaving Manitoba and Canada and practising in the United States. There has not been, to my knowledge, a great inflow the other way but there certainly has been an outflow of our trained medical manpower to the U.S.

Free Trade Agreement has nothing to do with that outflow that is happening today, happened last year, happened the year before, nor will it have any impact on future changes in medical manpower because we set the standards for professional practice through various professional associations and in terms of medicine, the College of Physicians and Surgeons. Mr. Cheema: In 1984, there was a program set by the Manitoba Health, Emplo yment and Immigration Canada, College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba and the University of Manitoba. That program was the Refugee Physician Training Program.

Could the Minister tell us whether that program is still in place and what are the number of people who are currently being trained? Mr. Orchard: I am informed that federal program probably still exists through Immigration and I believe there may well be up to five positions or slots open for refugee, if you will, or offshore physicians in Manitoba. Mr. Cheema: Throughout the medical manpower, there are-t hat is the last option. I am not saying this should be the first option.

There are a large number of graduates who have passed the evaluation exam, who have passed even the qualifying exam for the Medical Council of Canada and those numbers are more than 400 or 500 in Canada. Can the Minister ind icate to us, has he or his department been in touch with those people to get some training here under this Refugee Program, or a separate program, so that we could have at least some of those physicians utilized in our northern communities or some of our rural commun ities? Mr.

Orchard: That is, I suppose, a potential source of medical manpower, but what has been happening in our recru itment efforts which are thr ough the department and through SCOMM is that from time to time offshore doctors-and I use specifically the example of some South African physicians who have immigrated to Manitoba to provide medical services, and quite often part of the conditions, if you will, of their coming to Manitoba are that they practise for up to two years in rural or northern or remote communities.

However, that does not necessarily solve the problem. lt has, in a couple of areas with, particularly the South 2638

Monday, October 31, 1988 African trained physicians, but often what happens is after a couple of years those new physic ians end up coming to Winnipeg anyway. • .

(2010) Mr. Cheema: There is a program which has been implemented by the Ontario College of Physicians and Ontario Ministry of Health to solve the problem of psychiatrist manpower in that province; and also Nova Scotia has a similar program . In that program , they are recruiting physicians from overseas as a last resort , those physicians who have met the primary requirement from the college. However, to practise for them to full time in any province in Canada , they have to meet the standard after two years or four years .

What Nova Scotia is doing they are making their services , utilizing the hospital for three days and, in two out of five days, two days those people go for in-patient training to meet their requirement. That program has been very useful and has solved the problem in Nova Scotia . Will the Minister consider such a program in Manitoba as a last resort? Mr. Orchard: No potential solution is going to be rejected out of hand.

But let me tell you that one of the discussions that we have gotten around to, in terms of discussions that I have had with psychiatrists and with the psychiatric community, is that the preferable option, and this is the difficult one is to, not that they are being racist or exclusionary or anything like that, they make the point that the best long-term solution is Canadian graduates, preferably Manitoba graduates because there is an understanding of the social mores and values which help, of course, in any kind of mental health treatment that is undertaken .

But certainly, for instance, in Great Britain , there have been efforts by other provinces and I believe Manitoba has even participated at some point in time in terms of recruitment from Great Britain of psychiatrists to assist in relieving a manpower shortage in psychiatry in the province . Those options certainly are ones that the door is not closed on, because the problem is serious enough to need addressing by all means possible . Mr. Cheema: If it is agreeable with the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan), I will go to the other topic of Adult Medical Ward Study.

If he has further questions, if he wants to ask on manpower, then I will follow him . Will the Minister describe the criteria established for the Adult Medical Bed Study? What hospitals are involved in this study? What are the objectives of this study? Mr. Orchard: I am told this was done last year. The Winnipeg hospitals plus Brandon General Hospital participated . The survey was of all adult medical , surgical and psychiatric patients admitted to acute beds in, as I say, Winnipeg and Brandon .

The objective was to classify patients by the severity of their condition on admittance to determine whether services might be more appropriately provided in a community or an out patient mode. Mr. Cheema: As the Minister indicated that this study was completed last year, can he tell us what are the recommendations from that study? Mr: Orchard: I am told that some of the findings of that study are still being discussed with the hospitals involved . I think it is fair to say maybe there was some disagreement in terms of the acuity of illness upon admission .

That being, I suppose, a subjective analysis, there is still some discussion ongoing with the various hospitals . Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, could the Minister indicate to us, in that study, what was the control group used? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman, there was no control group because all adult surgical , medical and psychiatric patients were part of the survey. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, could the Minister tell us, during that survey, were the patients and their families notified of the study? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Chairman, because there were no names attached by individual patient to the study, that it was a study by patient in terms of their admittance for either medical , surgical or psychiatric needs , there was no identification to the individual. It was one of the many ongoing statistical analyses that used data available in a non-identifiable or non-individually identifiable mode that is often done to accomplish research within the department on various trends and patterns. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson , the confidentiality of a medical record is one of the most important things .

While you are conducting a study , how can you not notify the patients and their families? Still you are using their medical records , even though it is for the benefit of all the people. There must be some mechanism of informing the patients and their families . What kind of mechanism was put in place in the hospital? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Chairman , this was not specific patient identification along with the survey.

I realize my honourable friend may have some concerns and rightfully so, if I was admitted to hospital and my name became part of a survey which was part of a Government base of information, but that was not the case . The patient's identification did not go along with the statistic in terms of the amount of nursing care that the individual received , once admitted , determining the acuity of that patient's admittance . It was not individually identified . It was, if you will, a generic study which has taken place on a rather routine basis .

That is one of the advantages of Medicare , for instance , in that we do have a rather complete and substantial information base which from time to time is made available without identification to the individual to make epidemiological studies , if you will, and this was yet another one . The re was no jeopardy to patient identification or confidentiality . 2639

Monday, October 31, 1988 *

(2020) Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperson, could the Minis ter tell us what was the cost of that study? What were the major factors determined by that study in reference to the per patient per day cost in the hospital? Mr. Orchard: The study did not cost anything in terms of an outlay because it was part of Research and Planning's ongoing program. I sup pose, if you wanted to assign 1/ 22 of the annual cost of Research and Planning or 1/ 52 or 1/ 23, and even that I cannot give you because that simply is not available in that kind of detail. So there was no outlay of cash cost.

The hospitals partici pated at no cost to MHSC, and there was no information generation on per patient cost per day. Mr. Cheema: The Minis ter has said that the study was comple ted and they are going to follow up on that stu dy. Could he indic ate to us when he will table the � findings of that study in this House? Mr. Orchard: That is one of the working studies that the department has in terms of its ongoing research and planning. There was not any intention to table that particular study. Mr.

Jay Cowan (Churchill): While there may not have been an intention to table this study , I think the question was not whether or not there was an intention but would the Minister be prepared. There are some studies that can be tabled and there are other studies that one does not table. I think it is with the right of Government to determine what it is they should table according to established standards and what it is they should not table, and then they have to suffer the political fall-out if there is any fall-out if they go too far in respect to not tabling information that should be available to the public.

So I would just repeat my colleague's question with respect to the tabling of the study. Is the Minister � prepared to table it, although it may not have been , the intention to table it? If not, can he enlighten us as to why he would choose not to table it? What would be contained within that study that would not be right for the general public to know? Mr. Orchard: The answer to the first question is it was never intended to be tabled. I do not intend to table it. lt was an internal research document to attempt to determine acuity of patients' health care needs upon admittance.

From that standpoint, it was not intended, when taken by your administration, that it become a public document. I am simply prepared at this stage of the game to concur with that decision. Mr. Cowan: A lot of reports we did and materials we put together were not intended to become public documents and they did, as the Minister full well knows. He knows how they became public documents on numerous occasions as well.

We are particularly concerned about this Minister and the gag memo which was tabled in this House the other day which shows that, in spite of what this Government said about being an open Government and being a Government that wanted to provide fuller information and ful ler data and freer access to Government work than previous administra tions-and they were especially critical of the most recent adminis tration in that regard-w e are seeing a Government that is much more closed, a Government that is much more reluctant to provide information.

The memo which we saw the other day goes far beyond what I know I ever did as a Minis ter. The Minister of Environment is-how to phrase it-c licking his lips it seems, saying tsk, tsk, perhaps tsk, tsk.- (lnterjection) Well, he says that one Minister made him go through the Deputy to get any information at all. I can tell him what happened in my own portfolio, and there are members on his side of the House who will substantiate this. If it was a technical question, I encourage Members to go directly to staff, and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) can confirm that.

If it was a policy question, I encourage them to go to the Deputy Minister, and they were told to release information of a technical nature and a policy nature freely and to have free discussions with Opposition on those particular items. If it was a politi cal issue where there was a political requirement to defend a decision or explain a decision, I said, I will do that. That is my job. Technicians are technicians, they should provide technical Information. Deputy Ministers deal with policy, they should provide policy information where it is established .

Where it has a political ramification, the Minister should deal with it. (The Acting Chairman, Mr. Parker Burrell, in the Chair.) What we have with this Minister is a gag memo, a gag order that says do not even provide an annual report without first consulting with the Minister. Do not provide backgrou nd mate rials, do not provide background information. That goes far beyond what any of our Ministers did during our tenure in office. I do not think that even the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery) or the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) would suggest that if they wanted an annual report, they could not call the department and get an annual report or that sort of technical information without having to go through anyone other than the person they contacted for that particular report.- (Int erjection)- The Minis ter of Environment (Mr. Connery) says that one day they got the Environment Annual Report as they were walking in to do the Estimates. lt may well be that is when it was available. But I did not hear him say that he asked for an annual report and did not receive it when it was available.

He knows full well that happened from time to time, and I do not condone it. lt was not a good practice and it was one that improved over time and, I would have hoped, would have impr oved with this particular Government, but we see them going in a different direction. So we have a reason to be suspicious and a reason to be concerned. The specific question I asked the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard) is, what is in this report that he does not think should be made public? If there is something in there that he wants to stand up and defend and say, 2640

Monday, October 31, 1988 I do not believe it should be made public for these reasons, then it is up to you, Mr. Acting Chairperson, and all of us and others of the general public to judge whether or not we agree with the Minister with respect to that particular information.

I do not want to be overly critical right from the start because I really do not know why it is the Minister has not provided or the Minis ter has ind icated he will not provide this background report, but I would like to know from him what it is in the report, not the specifics but the generalities within that report, that he feels would be detrimental to our work as legislators or to his work as a Minis ter of the Crown if it were to be make public and become generally known. Mr.

Orchard: This study, which was undertaken last year when my honourable friends were governing, was done in cooperation with the Winnip eg hospitals and with Brandon General Hospital. Because we needed their full cooperation and it cost them some monies, no doubt, in their internal budgets to provide the information on patient care, one of the agreements of cooperation was that the results would not be shared publicly.

The choice obviously to the previous administration is, is the information valuable enough to comply with that criterion, and obviously the previous Government belie ved that was a reasonable request tha t the hospitals made to provide cooperation for this study. I do not think it is an issue of what is in there that the previous Government "wanted to hide" from the people of Manitoba. That was simply one of the conditions under which they undertook the study with the hospitals.

In my estimati on, that, I am advised, was a reasonable decision and allowed us to put together information which could well be important in future policy and decision making. So I do not think the previous adminis tration had anything diabolical in the back of their mind when they did not want this to be a public document. I cert ainly have nothing diabolical in the back of my mind when I concur with the decision made by the previous Government. *

(2030) Mr. Cowan: How easy it would have been for the Minis ter just to say, when we asked the question instead of trying to be somewhat sharp-tongued, it is not being provided because the hospitals requested it. 1 am assu ming that the hospitals requested it because they did not want information out that would judge them directly one against the other, that might be perceived to be detrimental. They wanted to use this as a building process, as a learning process and as research and, for that reason, made the decision to ask that the information not be provided.

Had the Minister said that, it would have saved us a bit of time in Estimates. I do not want to give him too many helpful hints on how to save time in Estima tes and make his job easier for him.

If he was more forthright and more open right from the start, ins tead of th ose short, quick answers that do nothing towards moving the Estima tes along, we would be better off for that reason. 2641 With respect to another activity that was being undertaken by the department in this particular area, can the Minister provide us with some more detail as to the information which was being reviewed in the Walk-in Clinic Research Project? Mr. Orchard: Basical ly, Mr.

Acting Chairman, the information being reviewed was an attempt to determine whether an individual using a walk-in clinic-! will just wait until my honourable friend has fin ished his conv ersa tion. You cannot do two thi ngs at once. Basically, the information was to attempt to determine a couple of things primarily, (

a) whether individuals using a walk-in clinic then visited another physician the next day or went to an emergency of a hospital in addition to a walk-in clinic, or in tact there was some reason to believe from the statistics that the use of emergencies in hospitals declined as a result of walk-in clinics. There are th ose who argue that the walk-in clinic may well relieve pressure from the emergency wards of hospitals.

The results of that first year of statistical analysis seemed to ind icate some small decrease in the use of � emergencies with the advent of walk-in clinics, but it , is not I guess sta tistically significant would be the appropriate terminolo gy. That is why we are hopeful that this year's analysis for March 31, 1988 would maybe be more definitive as to whether there is double doctoring, whether in fact there is a visible reduction in the use of emergencies. Mr.

Cowan: So if I understand the Minis ter cor rectly, the information needs to be su bstantiated before it can be of any real value, given that it is not -(lnterjection) or broadened. The Minister ind icates it needs to be broadened. I want to talk about that for just one moment. I know my colleague wants to talk about walk in clinics as well.

Is there any research being done to determine if walk- in clinics are being used by a large number of their clientele or even any number of their clientele as a family physician, in other words, replacing the normal family physician where you have, rather than a doctor's office, a walk-in clinic? You build up a relationship with � the doctor in that clinic and that becomes your family , physician. I will tell you the reason I ask the question is because my family physician does indeed run a walk-in clinic.

Although I recognize that his busi ness is classified as a walk-in clinic, in my mind, he is a family physician. He is my doctor. I go to him on a regular basis. I do so for a number of reasons, and I think that there may be others out there who either have happened across a physician by going into a walk-in clinic that they happened to like or they happened to believe is a good physician, and then that physician becomes their family physician, or there are some who were in the profession before going into walk-in clinics and they take some of that trade that they had before as family physicians with them.

There are others, because of locale, the walk-in clinic just becomes another doctor's office and they build up a family physician relationship with either one doctor or a number of doctors in that particular office. So I would ask the Minister if there is any research being done in that particular area as well to determine

Monday, October 31, 1988 the impact on walk-in clinics as replacements for family physicians or normal doctors' offices? Mr. Orchard: The Memb er poses an in teresting question. I think the answer, whatever the answer will be, may come out of two or three years of statistical analysis. We cannot just base it on just the one year that we have.

I do not even know whether we will be able to conclude that from even two years, because you are going to have to have two sets of circumstances in place for a period of two, three, four years, i.e., the same physician practising out of the same walk-in clinic, seeing the same family or ind ividual and thereby es tablishing what one might describe as a family physician relationship. We simply do not have any ability to determine that kind of trend from just one year's in forma tion. I do not kn ow whether it can be a conclusion we can reach out of even two years of information-that may take three.

In the meantime, there are pretty strongly held opinions on both sides of the fence in terms of the utility of walk-in clinics. I Mr. Cowan: The Minister is absolutely right, no doubt there are some very strongly held opinions. lt is

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-68b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 68b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	602a181b47ca29ef09aa2b4c2560cbf0d59094e2

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