Vo lume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st . Session ===== == ·-=== = ==--=== VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY , JUNE .7, 1976 Numb er 78 SPEAKER; T HE HONO URABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIME R ,..

June 1, 1976 Tape 3237 Th@ House met at 2:00 P.~. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MF. SPEAKE:!!: MR. ROUSSEAU: STATE~NTS RY ~NISTEFS: T.he hon. ~fini.ster of Forestry and Agriculture. }lr. Speaker, I would like to give some details of IB-1 a new swine pro~ramme adopted by government over the past week or so. I am very pl@ased to present to the House of Assembly at this time J\OVernment 's policy ~rith reRards to the provincial swine industry. First to lend perspective to our new policy; let me comment on the present industry.

The existinp, swine programme commenced in the mid- 1960's and now consists of a swine breedin~ station at St. John's w:lth 450 sows, a substation near Corner Brook with thirty sows and twenty-three private swine operations,mostly in the Eastern re~ion,with a total complement of 1,230 sows. The swine breedinp. stations produce and sell specific - pathogen free or SPF, as we call :It, breeding stock to the twenty­ three private producers ~no 1 by terms of their agreement with the nepartment of Agrictuture,follow a systematic breedin~, herd health and marketin~ pro~rarnrne.

There are approximately fifty individuals with a total of 250 animals outside the Sl'.F programme. As a result of the controlled breeding programme and superior health status, the perfermance of our swine population,in terms c-f effid.ent p.rowth rate and feed consumption 1 is superior to that kno~~ anywhere else. T,ast year 23,000 h~gs,equivalent ' to {1.0 million pounds of pork were marketed,result:ln~ in a growth rate to producers of $2.3 million. There are at present three new production units under construction and some existing producers have applied for expansion.

In the F.astern rep.:lon,all applications for increase are beinp. deferred hecause the abattoir :l.s now operating at its capad.ty of 506 hogs per ~reek. The abattoir at Corner Rrook started killing hop.s :In 1975 and can accommodate an expanded 1nc'ustry in the lolestern region. The present production, that is 23,000 market hogs,while equiTalent to 1.01.22

June 7, 1976 Tape 3237 IB-2 JI'P. ROUSSEAlT: almost 4 million pounds of pork per year is much below our total pork consumption estimated to he 25 million pounds per year. Government's policy now is to extend our disease-free programme to all Newfoundland and ensure the maintenance of the superior health status by preventing further introduction of live swine to the Island.

Specific objectives over the next five years are to supply fresh pork to all areas of Newfoundland where distribution is economically feas:lble and to develop an expanded swine industry capacle of competing in world markets as a supplier of superior breedinR stock. ~y departl"ent plans to prohib:lt the movement of diseased live pigs into Newfoun~land and then 7 hy slaughtering any diseased pigs outs:lde the SPF programme) the security of our superior health status will be assured. ~eetinps are currently in progress with the federal nepartment of Agriculture regardinR the stoppage of live pigs moving :Into our Province.

As our production expands,a portion of the breeding programme will be transferred from the provincial breeding stations to private producers without losing the advantage inherent in the progrAmme. Significant expansion in production is anticipated in both the Eastern and Western regions of Newfoundland with less expansion in the r.entral region because of the distance from abattoirs and feed supplies. Investigations will be made into means to expand the capacity of the abattoir at Pleasantville. Consulta .nts ~rill be hired immediately to prepare plans and costs for expansion of the St.

John's abattoir for subsequent consideration by government. Coincidental with the expansion of the hog industry is the need for further processing facilities to produce products such as commercial slab bacon, dinner hams and smoked tenderized hams. This matter will he actively pursued. The benefits resulting from our programme will be numerous. ~Y increasing the annual hogs marketed from 23,500 to a five-year 10123 ._ ............ __

June 7, 1976 Tape 3237 IB-3 }fR. ROUSSEAlT: production goal of 50,000, approximately fl million pounds of pork will be produced for Newfoundland consumers. Within five years Newfoundland producers may be exporting breeding stock of superior health status. It :Is our hope that there will be approximately fifty additional jobs at the production level and an additional 100 jobs :l.n related production and service industries. Annual gr~wth returns to all producers should increase to $5 million. The expanded production will have significant impact on related industries such as construction, feed and transportation.

Newfoundland has a geographical advantage in achieving the goal of being declared free of certain diseases which plague the swine industry in other parts of the world. I submit,on behalf of government, that the policy now being adopted will pursue this goal to the social and economic benefit of all people in the Province, and especially those in rural Newfoundland. SpecificAlly,the following steps are envisaged as be:lng the f:l.ve-year programme in respect to the provincial swine policy.

One, the continuation of the swine breeding stations; the herd health programme; the sale of weaning pigs for home use and the expansion on demand of the latter two items; two, restrictions of the importation of live swine into Newfoundland by regulations under the Federal Animal riseases and Protection Act and supplemented by regulations under the Provincial Livestock Health Act. Three, the :Implementation of a multiplier herd policy and associated financial incentives so that private enterprise may carry out a portion of the controlled breeding programme.

Four, slaughter of all pigs outside the provincial programme and disinfection of the premises. If the owners wish to continue with pigs,the disposed animals will be replaced by animals of knol.m heaJ. th status and compensAtion awarded for lost production. F:lve, license all S'~>rine producers and s:l gn an agreement l•ith each binding them tn specHic management, health and marketing controls. 1.01.24

June 7, l~7n Tape 3237 JB-4 ~!P. PO\ISSEAU: $1x,change the price pAid by Newfoundland Farm Products to producers from the hi~hest weekly Toronto price plus two cents per pound to the ayl'ra~te weekly Toronto price plus t1ro cents per pound . Seven, hire a consultAnt to prepare a plan and costs for expansion of the $t . John's Abattoir for suhsequent eonsiclerat ion by ~overnment.

And eight encourage private enterprise to establish further processin~t facilities and if t his fails then present a subsequent proposal to ~overnMent reeommendinf that Newfoundland Farm Proclucts take this initiative. t have some copf~s here, Yr. Speaker. $0'1o<E P.l'lN. "'P}'BF."'S: Rear, hea r! "P. NEARY: I would like to know .. ·hat that was all about. 10125

Jun~ 7, 1976 Tape No. 3238 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: Th~ hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. gentl~man from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) wonders what all that means, well I can t~ll him for his interest and information and that of the Ho~se, that it is one of the finest programmes I have heard announced hy the governm~nt in the present session. MR. NEARY: I cannot g~t ~nthusiastic about hog breeiing. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well I can.

I can &et ~nthusiastic about any kind of productiv~ness in Newfoundland, ~specially if it employs people and above all if it keeps within the Province some of the millions of dollars that ~o out of the Province. We are sending many millions of dollars out of this Province every year now to buy pork, and pork products that are brought into the Province, some twenty odd million pounds a year and that is anything betw~en $10 millior and $20 million.

And if that can be stopped by producing our own pork and pork products within the Province, not only will it keep that money in the Province .. where it becomes available for investment,but it employs people and makes Newfoundland a little bit more self-sustained and s~lf-supporting. MR. NEARY: Sure the hon. member was the Godfather to that one. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well it is my programme. I have to admit modestly. I founded it. I established it. MR. NEARY: Hear! Hear! MR.

SMALLWOOD: The minister smiles but would he deny that that whole programme is my programme~ What he is doing very sensibly and very logically is extending it and building on the foundation that I laid. The whole programme in behind the town her~ was my programme. We started it, hog breeding. Th~ SP- what ar~ th~ initials?-SPF Programm~ we introduced. We w~r~ the first provinc~ of Canada. For quite a while we were the only Province of all Canada that had that programme being carried out. It originated in Ontario, I think in Conet Labraeories and we adopt~d it whole-heartedly 1.0126

June 7, 1976 Tape No. 3238 NM. - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: in Newfoundland and went into it holus-bolus. Because it so happens that I personally for many, many years indeed have been interested in hog raising. I raised hogs in on Kenmount Road early in the war and then I established the large place in partnership with the RAF at Gander and we had one of the finest piggeries in Eastern Canada. My son is a large operator on Roaches Line and at the moment he is building a big enlargement to his hog breeding and hog raising establishment.

He borrowed I think $70,000 from the Canadian Farm Loan Board, or Farm Loan Bureau and he is extending it to a considerable extent. Nearly all of the hog rai~ers are personal friends of mine and they have been in close touch with me all along and I can assure the minister that thev would be very proud and appreciative of his announcement here today. The House may not look upon the r•ising of hogs or the raising of poultry, the raising of broilers, the raising of egg - laying hens, the raising of ducks, the raising of geese, the raising of turkies as being important but it is important .

I am prepared to argue that with anyone and beat in the argument, because it is indisputable. The minister can feel very proud and I congratulate him on this move but I am glad to hear this talk he has just given us about enlarging Fort Pepperrell. Believe me the abattoir and the slaughter facilities do not particularly need enlargement, what is needed is enlargement of the controlled temperature holding facilities. The plant could handle much more than they are handling if there was some way to store it after it is slaughtered and that is the thing to be done.

I would suggest strongly that instead of waiting to get the facilities enlarged, as an immediate step they put in some additional cold storage and then the farmers will be very pleased with the minister, in fact be will become their hero and T will lead a movement to have him acclaimed as the hero - l-ffi. NEARY : Cannonized. MR. ~MALLWOOD: Not cannonized, "no, but acclaimed as the hero of Newfoundland agriculture. lJJ127 .

June 7, 1976 Tape No. 3238 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: Hear~ Rear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: On behalf of my colleague who is the spokesman for Forestry and Agriculture who is not in her seat at the moment - MR.. ROBERTS : Spokesperson. MR. ROWE: - I would like to commend the minister for thi• new policy, Sir.

It may not sound like a very earth shattering ministerial statement, however I think the two really important things in this particular statement~in the eight point programme as outlined there at the endlis the fact that we are going to have extreme health control with respect to the breeding and raising of pigs or hogs, whatever you want to call them, in the Province. I think it is a very important thing indeecl to control the animals that have diseases at the present time and to ensure that we will have disease free animals in this particular respect.

I am also glad to see, Sir, that there will be some effort with respect to marketing control with this new programme. Sir, anything that can make the people of Newfoundland, for the want of a better expression, self-sufficient in some form of meat be it rabbit or fish or anything else, I think is a good programme and I am hoping that in the future the miniter will provide and bring forth pro~rammes similar to this with respect to other animals that can be raised and multiplied in this Province and consumed by our own people and then thusly keep the money circulating within the Province.

I often think,for example , of rabbits. In this Province obviously, the multiplier fact with respect to rabbits is relatively high and there are other animals that !he Newfoundland people would consume and do aonsume and if we can control it within the Province and make ourselves self-sufficient in that respect all the better and probably we can reach the stage 7at some point in the KAmel where we could have export of these materials and bring money into the Province from without.

So, Sir, we can commend the minister for this new programme and hope that it will be a successful one and hope that we will see some positive and good results from it. .:. 10.1.28

June 7, 1976 Tape No. 32 38 NM- 4 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. 1100DY: Mr. Speaker, I \Wuld venture the llous!' would be interested in the ongoing negotiations between Treasury Board and the Public Service sector of NAPE. The negotiations between Treasury Board and NAPE representing employees in the general service bargaining unit reconvened last Thursday at the request of the conciliation officer.

Both parties at that time had indicated that there was some flexibility in their respective positions and it was hoped that a genuine effort by the negotiators in this round of talks would produce a settlement. The talks continued throughout the weekend but unfortunately a consensus was not reached . ./hen meetings concluded Sunday afternoon, government had increased its offer to six per cent while tbe union's latest position was for a $13110 across the board increase on April 1, 1Q76 and a step advancement on the salary scale on October 1st. of the same year,l976.

By our calculations this amounts to a demand or a request for a 16.5 per cent increase in one year, MR. NEARY: How much? MR. DOODY: 16.5 per cert. MR. ROEf.RTS: The government offererl six per cent. MR. DOODY: Six per cent. Government negotiators are prepared and willing to negotiate further but we have received no indications from NAPE they are prepared to talk in an area of settlement acceptable to government. I understand,howeve~ that Mr. Locking has today, and I did not hear his statement. Your Honour, I have g0t second hand information on it, that Mr.

Locking has today commited NAPE to placing our final position to their membershiP. The union is apparently asking for a final position from p,overnment while their bargaining position remains flexible. This is an unusual app·roach but one which I have requested my bargainers, the people in the r.ollective Service Bargaining Unit ;or rather on ·Treasury Board Bargaining Unit,. to explore further 10129 •, .

June 7, 1976 Tape No. 3238 NM - 5 R. DOODY: in the interest of aehievinp. a settlement. 1 expect to report the results of any further discussion on this point to the House of Assembly as soon as I am in a position to do so. So what IJe are saying in effect, Your Honour, is that we are willing to put government's final position on the table to the union in return for ~he union's commitment to put that position to the i r membership, and,as I say , this is a most unusual set of ci rcumstances because there is usuallv some flexibility left after the people leave the table.

But under th e present circumstances with the anti-inflation guidelines beinp, in effect and with ~overnm ent bein~ a partv to them 1 would think that nrobably some unusual circwaqtances are here and that ~overnment will have to take an unusual apnroach so after this aftern oon we will be exploring with · ~r. Locking and his NAPE people their rea ction to our ~ivinp, them r.overnment's position such as they have requested. MR. NEARY: In other words,six per cent now is final. MR. noooY: That is right. ,;. 10130 .• ,..

June 7, 1976 Tape 3239 PK - 1 MP.. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. E. M. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if I may make a brief comment on the minister's statement,which I know is of great interest to all the members of this House, first of all let me begin by seeing if I completely and correctly understand the matter. The negotiations are suspended, they are not ongoing at this time. MR. DOODY: ------ They broke off this moring. ~1R. ROBERTS: They broke off this morning, the minister tells me.

And the government have not made their final offer, the 6 per cent offer is not the government's final offer, and that the government are preparing and at some point today will communicate to Mr. locking, the NAPE representative what is the government's final offer. Is this - "'R. DOODY: And it depends on his passing it on to his membership. l'ffi.. ROBERTS : And I thank the minister for that. The government are willing to communicate their final position,whatever that may be, conditional upon "'r.

Locking and the NAPE executive undertaking to put that to a vote in the bargaining unit, the NAPE bargaining unit as a whole. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that we cannot really say very much on the merits of the matter until such time as we know what the government's final offer is. It is obviously going to be more than 6 per cent.

And I think it is fair to say it is obviously going to he somewhat less than the 16 per cent which the Minister of Finance indicated was the NAPE demand or request or bargaining position at this moment, which I believe is a step down from their original openers which I think was 21 per cent, although it is sometimes difficult to calculate because the government are talking a straight across the board raise to everybody

whereas NAPE are talking a straight across the board dollar raise and some changes on the steps whjch will have slightly different effects on people and slightly different ranges. But, Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that we on this side obviously are concerned about the situation that the government must 1.01.31.

June 7, 1976 Tape 3239 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: be seen to treat their employees generously and fairly, generously and fairly, and I l•muld emphasize each word equally, And ,of course,in this year of restraint, and in this year when all of the people of the Province in one way or another are being affected by the anti-inflation programme, what will be generous and what will be fair is a matter that must be examined very closely. I will await the minister's further comment. And the minister has undertaken as I heard him to keep the House informed and 1ve will know where we go from there.

We all hope obviously that the matter can he resolved by bargaining. The government can go a certain distance and beyond that they cannot go. The union can come a certain distance and beyond that they cannot come. lThat 1ve hope is that the goverrunent 's going and union's coming will produce a meeting of minds and avoid a strike, which will not only be unpleasant but which will be the first I believe in this Province's history - as I understand what we are talking of is not a group of employees in the sense of hospital employees or liquor store employees, we have had strikes in each of those cases.

What we are talking of is the general service, the general public service of the Province what most people would call the Civil Service, to use an old term, but one 1Jh1.ch is not necessarily inaccurate. But we all hope it can be solved without a strike, Sir. All I can say is that on our part we stand ready to do what we can to ensure that insofar as possible the strike is avoided. We hope one can be avoided because I do not think the public interest or the interest of the union people would be served by a strike at this time, and so let us hope that negotiations produce the results we desire. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. :MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that I could say anything that IVould help the situation in the least. It is in the hands of the negotiating body of the government. It is in capable hands. The union's case is in capable hands. And I am content to leave it to those capable hands. I do not think that any word that I would utter

June 7, 1976 Tape 3239 PK - 3 Mr. Smallwood: here is going to help or hurt. So I leave it at that. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. HeN. A. J. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I move that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Landlord and Tenant (Residential Tenancies) Act." SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further notices of motion? The han. Minister of Public Works. DR. T. FARRELL: No. MR. SPEAKER: No, all right. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Minister of Public Works. DR. T. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to table the answer to Question 722 asked by the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) on the lOth. of March, 1976. MR, SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. HON. W. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I have the answers to quite a number of questions here, Your Honour, for the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), Question Nos. 143, 148, 149, 154, 155, 162, 170, 172, 173, 178, 180, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 194, 225, 226, 228, 234, 236, 246, 247, and in order to appear non-partissn,for the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) No. 597. MR.

NEARY: What is that one about? MR. DOODY: The total Provincial contributions made to the capital and operating expenses of the Stephenville Linerboard ~ill since April 1, 1975. MR. NEARY: A very important question. MR. DOODY: All your questions are important and they are treated as such. MR. NEARY: I do not get the answers to them though. MR. DOODY: We are working on them. MR. NEARY: There are 135 ~uestions not answered. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. J. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker - 1.01.33

June 7, 1976 Tape 3239 PK - 4 MR. SMALLWOOD: I thank the hon. minister, Mr. Speaker, and express the hope that the department are not now exhausted altogether. MR • DOODY: I still have quite a few more here, I am working on them - MR. ROUS SEAl! : I have the answers to questions in the name of the hon. member for Twillingate, Nos. 267, 268, 277, 282, 283, 291, 304, 312, 317, MR. SMALUlOOD: no not sound so monotonous. MR. ROUSSEAU: It is very monotonous. And for the hon. member for LaPoile, Nos. 745, MR. NEARY: Hear, hear~ MR. ROUSSEAU: 746, 747, 748, 749- MR.

NEARY: That is the letter I presume the minister wrote to the newspaper. AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR. ROUSSEAU: - 750, 751, and 752. Obviously I cannot give the answers or certain information because of my talks with Bowaters, you know, at this point in time. I have a copy of my statement on the Mooney Block, that I made in the House of Assembly, and if the hon. member wants to see the agreement he is more than welcome to do so, but Bowater's have not been finalized yet and I cannot make a statement in that respect. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR . SPF..AKER: The hon. Leader of the Oppositon. MR. E. M. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, my question, Sir, is for the Minister of Finance in his capacity as President of the Treasury Board. Could the minister tell us whether suitable preparations have been made by the government to ensure that the public interest is protected in the event, possibly unlikely and certainly unwelcomed, but still possible event of a public service strike, and if so, could he tell us , in outline at least, ... .,at those contingency plans are? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. ------ HR.

DOODY: Your Honour, the Treasury Board people have had meetings with the !Ienior l!langement personnel of the various departments and Crown agencies and have set up a syste111: whereby they hope to be

• June 7, 1976 Tape 3239 PK - 5 Mr. Doody: able to continue Yith the essential services of the public service such as the distribution of social assis t ance cheques, and some of the othe r necessary functions of government. I might say that Mr. Locking in his statement today,! have been told,was most concilia tory and most helpful. He assured us that if it did come to an unfortunate impasse and a s trike was called that he and his people would see to it that the forest fir e serv ice , for instance, would not be affected, and would still be available for essential services .

So I think the NAPE people are taking a very reasonable and sensible attitude and one for which we wish t~ offer our appreciation. Senio r government people tberoselves are reacting . The senior public people, the middle management and top management people are prepa .ring themselves for a contingency should it occur. People who will be surplus to the needs of one department will be transferred to another where their need will be more greatly felt. And so in broad outline that is about it, Sir. A contingency plan has been set up .

It depends on the maneuverability of people to go from department to department to perform the duties that they are asked to perforn• . Hopefully it will not come to that but if it does I think that in as far as is possible, ~o-e are prepared. •m. SPEAKER: The hon. member fo r LaPoile. 1.0135

June 7, 1976 Tape 3240 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: If I could get the Minister of Industrial and Rural Developaent back in his seat, Sir, I would like to ask the minister if he could give us a progress report on what is happening now in connection with the Marystown Shipyards; Have all the repairs been made7 Has the shipyard received any additional contract? What about the Guiana ships? And what is the prospect for employment there in the months ahead? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. J.

LUNDRIGAN: I hope to be able to have a comment in the next two weeks of a positive nature involving Norway. 'We have been involved in discussions of a very positive nature. I am reluctant to say much because if you build up the hopes of people, and they do not come true~of course,it is worse than if nothing happened. I think all hon. members will agree with that statement. And that is why, in all of the things that we pursued, we have done it rather quitely.

Because in the last six months, in particular, I think we have done more travelling, by myself on a couple of occasions, by people in Industrial Development, and particularly the new management of the shipyard, in trying to round up any work that we could. The Guiana still has not fallen through, but it has not come· through, so there is nothing positive to announce. In respect to Norway I would just reluctantly mike a report of a brief nature. we have had a leteer of intent signed by a1 Norweigan Company for a significant amount of work in Marystown if it comes through.

It is subject to financial arrangement being made with the 8xport Development Corporation. The Export Development Corporation have been very, very co-operative. As a matter of fact, we are involved in discussions with them at this very moment. And the minister, of course, involved, Mr. Jamieson,as well,I believe,is attuned to the problem, and also the prospect for the Norweigan l!ontract, and to my ~nowledge has rendered whatever assistance is necessary. The contract we are looking at,if we could land the contract,would involve enough work to stablize the shipyard for a number of years.

So it is a very ~ignificant kind of move. 1.01.36

June 7, 1976 Tape 3240 PK - 2 Mr. Lundrigan: But again it is only a letter of intent. Our management of the Shipyard, Mr. Barclay and the peoplei have just returned from Norway, who were meeting with the principals involved in the company, and until we get the final thing signed, sealed and delivered I am still going to reserve any kind of detailed comment on it. But I do want to say that we have •ade a lot of effort to obtain work. I really hope and I think everybody in Newfoundland hopes, that we can land a contract of this magnitude. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, well I certainly hope that the minister and his staff can land a contract. But I presume,Mr. Speaker, from what the minister said in his answer to my question that the cost of whatever kind of ship it is that they are building is competitive, and that the Norweigans are satisfied with the cost. And would the minister indicate if these ships have anything to do with the fishery;' Are they trawlers or what kind of ships will be built there? Is this is a new type of boat to be built at Marystown or what? MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUNDRIGAN: The bon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. Mr.

Speaker, I would be reluctant to give any detail at the moment. It is not a ship as such. There are a number of craft of a particular nature. The problem,as I indicated,is financing the craft which involves the Export Development Corporation. And,of course, subject to our capability to be able to tender properly in a way that that would be competitive then we are confident that we can achieve that particular goal ourselves. But at the moment I just want to say that the prospects are there. They are very good.

We have,as I say, indicated our sort of strong determination to achieve the goal of a contract of a major nature. We have also,as I say, signed a letter of intent. So it has progressed much beyond the ~a!king stages, and it is g~ing to take at least two more weeks, I would sa~ of pretty hard work on behalf of D)J'<·Federal counterpart in this case, as well as the Export Development Corporation, ourselves, taa shipyard and 10137

June 7, 1976 Tape 3240 PK - 3 Mr. Lundrigan: the company involved to be able to put all of the things together. And other than that I would rather not make any positive comment at this moment. A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate then if the workforce ---- - at Marystown will remain the same as it is now until these negotiations are finished? And the minis@er did not answer my q¥estion in connection with repairs to the damage to the syncrolift down ubere recently. Has all the damage now been repaired, and the shipyard back in full operation, doing repairs?

I understand there is one dragger under construction at the moment. Is that the situation now at, Macystown? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I believe it will be another week or ten days before we have the final touches on the syncrolift, something like a week or ten days from now, which will mean that it will be back in full operation. That has impeded our ability to do certain types of work. We have attracted a fair amount of repair work.

The present manager has a real kaack and a real skill and a flare for this type of work,which was never really perceived as a goal of the shipyard prior to his coming on stream. I can never give assurances about the stability or the expansion capabilities or potential at Maryatown. That will be totally dependent on our ability to attract work. I think that the government have placed a lot of emphasis on that shipyard in the last number of months.

My own feeling is, and I should say the last number of years because my colleague to my right here,who is to my left in some ways, will feel that the contribution for years was very significant. The thing that I feel somewhat 1.01.38

June 7, 1976 Tape no. 3241 Page 1 - mw Mr. Lundrigan. badly about it is the fact that we have not been able to put new work in the yard to satisfy the labour demand. MR. NEARY: There will soon be layoffs now. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Well I cannot give any assurance about that. I cannot give any assurance about new jobs until we get new work.

But my own feeling is that down the road 1 starting now,there is a new kind of marine pursuit as it involves my colleague in fisheries, as it involves the offshore oil and gas, the drilling and as it involves other kinds of aspirations of the people on the whole of the New England coast and the Gulf of Mexico. I think that the future of the shipyard in the long run is very, very bright. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, may I ask one more supplementary question? MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: In connection with the repairs to the syncrolift and the damage and so forth that was caused, did it cost the Province any money at all to repair the damage or was this covered under an insurance plan or under a guarantee with the firm that installed the syncrolift? Who paid for the syncrolift? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give a real definitive answer on that. I allow these things to be managed and handled by a competent Board of Directors and the management that we have. And if there is any specific type of question the han. member might have 1 would be glad to get the information for him. MR.

NEARY: Did it cost the Provincial Treasury anything? MR. LUNDRIGAN: Not the Provincial Treasury to my knowledge. MR. NEARY: Not directly? MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. LUNDRIGAN: I would say not directly. Indirect:ly? The shipyard itself, I could not get a categorical answer, but certainly all of our insurances were in place, and I would 10139

June 7, 1976 Tape no. 3241 Page 2 - mw Hr. Lundrigan. assume that the regular claims are being pursued, and as far as I know there has never been anything of a demand on the shipyard in terms of financial outlay. MR. NEARY: Right. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Fogo followed by the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. CAPT. WINSOR: Can the hon. minister tell the House how the shipyard at Marystown compares with the delivery time in comparison with other shipyards in North America or in fact all over? That seems to be one of the problems facing the yard. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.

LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, that is not a problem in the shipyard in terms of delivery time 1 From knowledge we have acquired from people who have assessed the vard from outside. And I mentioned a distinguished gentleman several months ago and did a survey for us on the yard. The shipyard has one of the best work forces. It has one of the most efficient mechanisms of any small shipyards in the world.

And one of the problems we have had in competin~ with places like Guiana, for example, is that the work farce results in such a quality of work that we have had trouble competing with some of the lesser shipyards of the same size, and with the same capabiltiy.

But in terms of our capability,our delivery time and the skill of the work force and the management, I think we have an exceptional shipyard that will prove in the future to the rest of the world that it will not only be competitive and outstanding but perhaps will be,in its own category, one of the ones that will receive world recognition at some point in the future. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: A question for the Premier.

I wonder would the Premier indicate to the House whether the government has filed an intervention before the National Energy Board relative to the Hydro Quebec's application to export power to the United States? 1.01.40

June 7, 1976 Tape no. 3Z41 Page 3 - mw Mr. Simmons. If it has done so or will be doing so shortly, would he indicate just how this is being done, and whether in particular someone will be appearing before the board hearings? And if so, who that person might be on behalf of the government? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PIIDI.IER MOORES : Yes, Mr. Speaker, I cannot give all the information that I would like to be able to peculiarly enough. We have filed or asked for permission to intervene in the proceedings,in the application as has the Province of Ontario.

We have sent some of our people off to talk with the people. I think we have got another couple of days before we have to actually give our presentation to the Energy Commission itself, the Energy Board. MR. DOODY: I think it is the tenth of June. PREMIER·MOORES: Yes, I think it is on the tenth of June that we actually make our representation there, and with others assisting us.Our counsel who will be making that representation is Mr. Keith Mercer from the Department of Justice. He has been up there and involved in it since I mentioned it in the House. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. KEARY: Would the Premier indicate that failing in intervention or a favourable decision by the National Energy Board, will the Province look for a court injunction to bar the Province of Quebec from selling 800 megawatts of power to New York State, which is the same amount - and is Churchill Falls power by the way - is the same amount that we want to buy in this Province and Which may jeopardize any court action that we may take? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, there is a small complication in our intervention.

We are intervening on that it is not in the Canadian interest to export that power, because the length of the contract 1.0141.

J une 7 , 1 976 Tape no. 3241 Page 4 - mw Premier Moores. is from now until 1982. The fact is that this Province would not be in a position to take it between p.ow and 1982, because it would take that long to build a transmission line. But what we are saying is that it is in the national interest not to ship it outsid~ the country when there are other ~rovinces .that need it and certainly after 1982 we will as well. MR. NOLAN :Is Ontario obiectin~ as well? EREMlER MOORES: Yes, they are. MR. NEAR,Y: A further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member. MR. NEARY: Will the bon •. 10142 ,.

June 7, 1976 Tape 3242 IB-1 ~. NEARY: the Premier inn:lcate if the Province intends to take advantap;e of an offer made by 1-fr. AJJ :l.ster GHlespie to try to mediate the dispute between Ne.,rfoundland and the prov:lnce of Ouebec. Nr. ~PF.AKER: The hon. the Premier • .J'PE~iiEP }IQOPES: Mr. Speaker, we do not have a r:l:l.spute we have a defined position that Quebec can take or lump it. SO~ RON. ~~F.RS: Hear, hear! ''ll. SPE/IKER : The bon. mem~er for Twillingate.

Would the Premier be able to say what proportion 0f the total amount of hydro-electric enerp;y or any energy produced hy Hydro~uebec consists of the enerp;y they get from Churchill Falls? Tt i!' around seven mill ion from the TTpper Churchill. WhRt is their total for th<lt? PREMIER W)ORF.S: - --·----·-- Mr. Speaker, the Churchill Falls input into Quebec is just over thirty-three per cent of their total usap;e in nuebec. ~. SPE"KER: The han. member for LaPoile. ~. NEARY: I have a question for the han. Minister of Rural ann Innnst-riaJ nevelopment.

Wou] d the minister tell the House .1ust precisely what the situati.on now is in connection w:lth Pyramirl Homes at Argentia? Are they p;oing out of business? I understand the day before yesterday they had a sort of a fire sale down there. Thev are disposing of aJl their material and supplies they have on hand. What is the situation? I mean there seems to be double tRlk go:lnp; on now in connection ~r:lth this. }~. SPFAKEl': The hon. 1-finister of Rural and Industrial nevelopment. }'Jl. LlThiDRIGAN: Mr.

Spe~ker, there are times li~e th:ls that I prefer not to be in the responsible position of havinR to have a double head. Therefore I will bite my tonque at the present moment and hP more responsible than I would like to be in my comment ancJ tell the llouse thP. feeling I l!ave. }fy feelinr. is sol!'ewhat alonp; the l:lne the member has expressed. I am not a h:lt satisfied with the 101.43

June 7, 1976 '~'11pe 3242 IB-2 1-'P. LllNDRTGAN: co-operation we have had from Pyramid Homes. I do not want to put worrls in the mouth of my colleague who had a goorl deal more experience with the company than I did. Rut I believe I csn sense hif! feelinp:s on the issue.

I have requested that these people sit rlo~m with the member, I helieve, who will be involved tomorrow and myself and the off:lc:l;!ls :In the department and Jet us have :It stra:lftht from the shouJ~er what they plan to do with Pyramid Homes. '!'hey are com1.np in tomorrow morning at nine o'clock, some of their top management people from the mainland as well,an~ I am p;oinp: to jnf!t raise the question categorically with them, ~~hat they pJ an to do. ~y concern is that we have got a good plant there, we have got a good work force. '!'hey admit th1.s themselves. There has been no reflection on the work force.

They worked very hard to get the industry off the ground which is the most difficult achievement of anv group of ~~orkers to p:et an industry off the ground. 'T'hev have been productive as a worl<. force. They have been very insecure in their own fe~ling about what their future is and I share the1.r feeling of insecurity. Tomorrow morning I hope to he able to have thRt compa.ny clear with us completely what they plan to do. I hope they do not anticipate having their cal<e and eat:lnp; it too.

In other 'IJOrds1 that they do not wmt to have the in~ustry go:lng ahead there and yet they want to have the prern~f!es ~~ich house the industry. So I will be able to give a more definitive ans~rer ] ater on in the "'eel<. ~. NEArY: A supplementary. Is the minister aware,and I am sure he :Is - the hon. ~ember f~r Placentia has probably told him this - but :Is the minister aware that a few davs ago they sold off insulat~on, roofinp:, sinks, toilets. They are .1ust completely seJ J inp; everything off. It is being lup:ged out in truck loads out of that plant down there. Is the minister aware of this?

If so, why has the minister not intervened and put a stop to it? t.Ot.44

Jtme 7, 1976 T~r>e 3242 IB-3 1-"P. LllNlli>J.CA~: ~r. Speaker , the first thtnp that has to he ma~e rleAT to the me~ber is that we have no jurisdiction. 1''1). NEAPY: There is DRF.F. monPV in tt. YP. Ll'NDPIC:A.~: This is not the nepartment of !'PEE. DREE as the member ~nows 1s a federal department of the federal ~overnment. They have DPF.F. money in it. asked the officials in my department several "'eeks apo to alert DREE and DPEE officiAls as to what the rumors ~~re out of ' Arpentia, as to ~mat the rumors were. I have ha~ no official correspon~ence with any of the prindpals in the co~pnny.

We have r.ot no jurisdictio n in the sense that we can sRv,. "You must establish or vou must stet out." We have no authority ro my vnowle~pe. We do have an a rranr e~nt with them. The lease rives us maybe certain flexib$l ity which I would like to con sider more csrE'ful 1 v bt>fore r>al>:ln~ comnents because there are l ettal implications involved.

Rut in terms of hein~ ahle to force the hand of the company ~e have to he su re that we know what we can do in these kinds of cases 1 as the member will rest assurerllas he tm~erstands this sort of thinr. ~~v colleapue the member fo r the district has briefed me on a rlnily basis on certain types ~f moves . The moves which are b ein~ m~de are totally incompatibl e with otner state~nts bein~ m::~rle hy the company. Like I say I all' resistin~t to say what IllY feelings are on th~ issue but J am certain th::~t tomorrow ~min~ the company will pet the m~ssap.e. :1.01.45

June 7, 1976 Tape No. 3243 NM- 1 ' MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the Premier be able to tell the House, in connection with this 800 megawatts of power that Quebec is endeavouring to get the right to export, jf they do not get - presumably they have got surplaa BOO megawatts of power to sell, they are trying to sell it to the United States­ if they are not permitted to do it does the Premier know what Quebec intends to do with that surplus power if it is surplus!

And if the 6overnment of Canada says, "No, you cannot export it,'' can Quebec 1 in fact, then sell that surplus 800 megawatts, say)to Ontario or somewhere?" MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I have no idea what Quebec would do if they are not allowed to sell that power. Certainly Ontario, as I understand it,and the Atlantic Provinces eould use it. One of the problems with Ontario is that the intertie between Quebec and Ontario is not really very substantial. As a matter of fact the integration of power between the two provinces, whilst it is not non-existant it is not close to it.

It is certainly not that you could transport any amount of electrical power over. What Quebec would plan to do, whether·they would talk about a transmission line into Ontario or whatever, Mr. Speaker, I do not kno'~ what the answer to that is. As I understand : it, the contract they are trying to get with the American people is a transfer power. In other words 1 in the Summer when the Americans need the power energy for air conditioning they would use it then and in the Winter when we in Canada need it for heating it would come back. It is more of a transfer arrangement, it is_~ot just an outright sale of power.

MR. NEARY: That is after 1982. PREMU;R MOO!rnS: That is after '82, that is right. But they are talking also about selling the power,as I understand it,betveen nine or ten mils into the States on ~he basis that they get it back in the future, on that sort of a relationship. I know Ontario 10146 .. '

June 7, 197fi Tape No. 3243 PREYIER MOORES: or any other Province in Canada,or anywhere else in the world 1 would be more than delighted to pay that amount for that power. I am surprised, Sir, with the de£ree of Canadian nationalism there is in Canada today. I am very surprised to see that the federal government themselves have not said that it should be used in Canada first rather than internationally. MR. SPEAKF.R: The han. member for Twillingate a supplementary. MR.

SMALLWOOD: I do not know if this is a supplementary - --------- question or not 1 but would the PYemier say what has happened to the Minister of Mines and Energy the last couple of weeks? He seems to be missing. MR. NEARY: He is contemplating running in St. John's West. MR. SPEAKF.R: The hon. Premier. PREMIER ~OORES : He is trying to get enough input or oower, Sir, to get back home. I think he was over to an energy conference in N~rway and as I understand it, as the Newfoundlander said. he is coming home gradually. MR .

SPEAKER: Refore recognizing the han. member I would like to draw to the attention of all members the presence in the gallery of ten grade six students from St. Michael's School in Goose Rav. They are accompanied by th~ir teachers Mr. Tobin and Mr. Ryan. l understand that this is some form of youth exchange and that the host for the visit is St. Francis School in Outer Cove. I know all hon. members join me in welcoming the ten students from St. Michael's School in Goose Bav. SOME RON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER : The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: In view of the fact that we had fourteen forest fires over the weekend and that the minister on Friday threatened to ban travel in the woods and so forth, what is the minister's position now in connection with forest fires? Are we going to have the ban if the weather remains dry? MR. SPF.AKEK: The han. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. 1.01.47

June 7, 1976 Tape No. 3241 NM- 3 MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I first of all would like to think that the people of the Province responded ma~nificently to the statements that have been made over the past couple of weeks. On a rough estimate we figure that possibly five per cent of the fires set or the fires in progress over the weekend might have been averted had a travel ban been imposed. I asked the officials in the department this morning to check out the causes of each fire. Many of them were caused by inainerators. Some were caused by children.

Soae have interesting causes in that there is no apparent reason why fires should start in that area because people are not in 8hat area. And if hon. members will take note , we seem to be fighting forest firest next to towns all over the place. They are not out in the, middle of the wilderness where people go. Now I am not afraid to impose a travel ban. I think I have the concurrence of people on this side of the House in that respect . Rut again you cannot penalize the whole Province for what is happening to a few people. We are taking a close look at it. We will keep an eye on it day to day - AN HON.

MEMBER: Then we can hope for the rain. MR. ROUSSEAU: The rain is good but I draw again to the attention of hon. members that most fires are near towns, set by children or for some other reason that we are checking. The RCMP are investigating various fires and certainly if we find any fire that has been set maliciously we will take every step aYailable to us under the law.

But out in the outdoors where people have been all weekend, this was a beautiful weekend across this Province, I would assume quite a few people were out right across the Province, but most of the fires that occurred were not fires that occurred in areas where people would be providing recreation for themselves,but near towns. 1.0:148

June 7, 1976 T;lT'E' 3244 TB-1 !-'1l. POTlSSF JilT: I.Je clo not ~nm• from rlay to clay. Tve get a IJP.athpr forecast that !lays, ;lt a long term, "Throu"h the wePk there i!l f:lne "•eather," and the next clav :It rains. So it is from day to day. If it gets really bad then we will tRl<e a look at steps to take 1 reluctantly_,hecause between May and September the people of the Province like to travel :!n the outdoors.

I think 1t is rlifficul t to penalize ninety-nine ancl a half or ninety-nine and three-quarters or ninetv-n:lne point nine per cent of the people for the lack of ~are and caution by that verv sm11ll percentage. So when "'e have. an inr1ication that it is caused hecause people are travP.lling for recreation in the outdoors we will look at it again. P:lght nor• as T say most of the fires are by to~Jns, some coming from dumT's anrl other ways.

Rut less than five per cent in our estimation - that is only an esti.mate - wouJrl have been averted harl a travel han heen imT'osed th:ls past weekend. ~~ SPF.AK~R: The hon. wemher for Windsor-Buchans ha!l a supplementary followed hy the hon. member for Terra Nova. To the ~ in:lster of Forestry. Most of the access roads in Central Newfoundlanrl over this weekend have been locked hy the Travel on those roads :l s bannecl.

D:lrl that decision hy Price (NflcL) or Rm•aters, •>tlirhever company controls these particular access roacls, r1:1r1 the minister approve that decision? r.an he advise the House 11s to TJhether :It c11rne as A result of the r1anrer of forest fires? ~"1'. SPF.AKI'."R: 'T'he han. ":ln:lster of !'orestry. ~'11. ROFSSl'Al' : The minister h>'Ls .iurisd:lcati.on over provincial roans. He does not hl'l.ve jur:lsr:lct:lon over private roacls.

T ,.~as nnt tolcl -now :It is quite poss:lhle Price cou]c1 hl'lve commun:fc~t.ed thP fart to snmehonv :In the Forestry either at the distr1rt level or in here that thev :lncleec1 ~rere poinr, to close the roads. '!'hat is the:lr prerogative on the:lr roarls. Our roacls 11re not closed thus far. Rut they !l'ay h:we communicated it to the c!:l strict office :In rent raJ NePfoundland or m11vhe somehocly in the huildin!! hut certa:l .nly there '·'11S l.Ot.49

June 7, 1976 Tape 3244 HR. R(WSSF.Al': no formal notificAtion and tve do not have to give approval or eli sapproval of whi'!t they do tdth the:!.r o"'" roads and their own timber stands. IB-2 }fP. FT.TGTTT: A supplementary. ~rr.

Speaker, in view of the tvpe of power that th:!s House ~:we the minister a few days ago "'ith regards to :lmpos:lnf!: " travel ban, is :l.t necessary no\,• for, assuming that the only reason th11t these roat'ta were closecl was because of the f:fre hazard 1 is there any reason now for Price (Nfld.) or Bowaters or anyone else ~mo control access roads to lock their roads and keep the r.eneral public out.' That ouest:fon in relation to the fact that we gave the minister the ri~ht, who makes the decision now, the minister or the companies that control those roads? HR. SPEAKEP: The hon. Minister of Forestry. MR.

ROUSSEAU: The companies make the decisions on their own roads. Al 1 I can say is tolhat I ito in my .1urisdiction w:l th Crown lands and public roads. For pr:l.vate road:o I have no .1urisd:l ction over them. l'nclonbteclly 1 I presume,if enough pressure was put on them you could have the roads reopened. But again that is their private road and they make the dec:l.s1on and they live by their dec:!Rions•. I make my decisions :In respect to our own and we have no iurisdiction over that. So if they want to close their roads there is nothing we can do.

He would probahly pressure them in - or not even pressure them in - if we put enough diAlogue into it poss:l.bly they would hut that is their prerogative. I had enough responsibility this weekend in my own mind. If the Province had broken out I would have felt, you kno~ I did not put a travel ban on it. It is enough respons:lbil ity. I have enough problems with my own area and Price and Bowaters have .1urisdiction over theirs and it is their prerogative to do what they decide they are going to do. }~. SPEAKE~: I have indicated I would reco~ize the hon. member for Terra Nova after. 10150

.June 7, 1976 Tape 3244 IB-3 ~m . LUSH: Mr. Speaker, 1 have a cuestion for the ~inister of Educati on. Re~pecting the Newfoundland School f or the Deaf,1 wonder if the m1nister is in a position to inform the House just what curr icul um that school foll~s. whether it is one patterned after the regular nay schools of this Pr ovince or whatever? ''P. SPEAKER: rne hon . Vinister of Education . ''P. HOlTS!": ¥T. Speaker, the prop.rarome is not patterned after the re~lar programme. Obviously it could not be .

I have not got the full dt>ta:!ls on i t hut 1 would invite the hon. member, who is the critic on education to come and have a looy at it. )oq) • SPP.AKEF: A supplementary. ~'F . LUSlt: Just a supplementary question, ~r . Speaker . If the curriculum is different , and I would expect it might be different , I wonder if the minister is in a positio n to tell the Bouse who draws up the guideline fo r t he curriculu ml Who dec1.des what the cu rriculum wil l be for t hat school? "R. Sl'EAKEP: The hon . Minister of Education. M'!l. HOUSE:.

I t is with the staff and of course "'e alsC' send pupils from thP school to the A~ers t School for vocational training . Tt would he dnnp in con1unct1on with that school and othe r schools ....c send them to on the mdn l 11nd plus the rl 1visjon of spe cial services 11r the l'ep~trtment of Bducnt1on, ~~r . Andrew' s c\J v1~> 1on. 1.0151 . .

June 7, 1976 Tape no 3245 Page 1 - mw HR. LUSH_: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. LUSH: I wonder if the minister is aware that that school has no curriculum at all. MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, there is a curriculum. They are working out their curriculum in conjunction with the Special Services Division, and with the needs that are required for vocational training in the Amherst school. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Miniater of Municipal Affairs and Housing if it is correct that a housing development is going to go ahead near Oliver's Pond that was barred a few years ago because the particular are4 involved in this development was supposed to be within the St. John's watershed at the time. But nbw apparently approval has been sought and the development at Oliver's Pond is going to go ahead. Can the minister confirm this? MR. PECKFORD: Pardon? MR.

NEARY: The housing development, Oliver's Pond, ------ an Oliver's Pond housing development, It was supposed to be in the watershed a few years ago when there was objection raised to it. Now I want to know is it outside the watershed, inside the watershed? l!JR. ROBERTS: It is not near the watershed. MR. NEARY: Pardon? I am not going to ask those who live down at Hogan's Pond. I want to find out from the hon. minister. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: I do not know the answer to the question, Mr. Speaker . MR.

NEARY: Will the han. minister undertake to get me the answer to the question, because the gentleman involved was supposed to 10152

June 7, 1976 Tape no. 3245 Page 2 - mw Mr. Neary. be compensated a few years ago for not being al~owed to go ahead with the development1 Would the minister undertake to get the House that information? MR. PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister - MR. SPEAKER: I am sorry to interrupt the hon. gentleman, but the time has elapsed. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Motion 4. - --- On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

RESOLUTION; That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend the Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957, the Act No. 71 of 1957 to provide for the advance of loans to and the guarantee of the repa~ent of funds for debentures issued by or loans advanced to certain local authorities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Chairman, this is the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation Act or the updating of it. It brings to the House the information which is listed in the

schedule to the bill here. The amounts of the guarantees issued to the various municipalities during the preceding fiscal year, the total is a little over $21 million, I think- $21,126,000 is what I have got jotted on my notes here. I do not think the total shows on the bill. The details of these various communities is listed and the length of the term of the guarantee is also listed. So to that extent, Sir, the bill is just a self-explanatory one, and it is a bill that has been brought in annuallv_since 1957, and the various amendments are listed on page two of the bill itself. 1.0153

June 7, l976 MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Tape no. 3245 Page 3 - mw The bon. Leader of the Opppositio n. Okay, Hr. Chairman? 1~ell , the minister has , a,; best I heard him , explained what the bill we are now considering in Committee is about. I suppose we are doing the Resolution first, but I mean we debate them all as an entity because, of cou r se, really the Resolution says just about everything that need be said . What we ar e doing i s amending the Local Authority Guar antee Act 10154 ,.

June 7,1976. Tape II 3246 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: to give the government authority to guarantee loans which,in fact, they have already guaranteed and most of the money, I would think 1 has already been spent. There is nothing unusual about that, it has been done every year for the last,-well there is a list here of the Acts-especially the last twenty years.It is near enough to the last twenty years. I suspect as long as there is a House of Assembly we will be passing or asked to pass and sure will pass a similar bill each year.

The ~linister, as I heard him, did not indicate exactly what these loans are for. ~ !y understanding is that they are either for water and sewer systems or for paving grants. Perhaps the Minister could tell us is that the - MR. DOODY: That is an old bill there, there were some there,with one or two exceptions to that. MR. ROBERTS; HR. DOODY.' The Minister, might then - The town of Bishop's Falls for instance. I notice there is a $200,000 amount there for stadium construction.

That would be in the Department of Municipal Affairs' contribution to a stadium in that area. ~~~ ROBERTS : Right Well perhaps the Minister can take a minute and look through it. I do not know where the Minister of Municipal Affairs is but what I am going to say I hope is relevant 1 and since the bill is his perhaps he could sit in. The Minister of Finance might indicate to us in theCommittee whether any of the loans authorized by this bill other than the one for Bishop's Fallslare for any purpose other than paving or water and sewer. I think that is a fair enough point to make. My concerns with this matter Nr.

Chairman, are two or three in number. Perhaps I could mention them briefly and either the Minister of Finance or his colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs could deal with them. First of all, and I would think this is more in the province of the Hunicipal Affairs Minister than that of his colleagueJ Could the Minister indicate to us when we might expect to have some word on this years capital grants program. I understand 1and this understanding comes from letters I have had from the Minister and from ~Ot.55

June 7,1976. Tape 3246 AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: his former deputy Mr. Clarence Keeping as well as from conversations I have had with the Minister and several of his officials, that the programme for this year is now before the Cabinet. In other words the Minister, with the help of his officials has worked out his suggestions and thoughts on what should be done with the amount of money that has been voted to him this year for new water and sewer projects and t hat has gone up to the cabinet for an approval or a decision, one or the other, as it should, and we would like to know.

It is now the 7th of June and the season is going on. It is a good year to get building done, I am told, or to get projects done because the bids which have come in on highway projects, I understand, are very reasonable, taking into account what has been expected. I understand from people in the private contracting business, in the private building business that bids are very low and bidding is very keen and very competitive.

Of course that is a reflection of the fact that there is relatively little construction going on in Newfoundland and Labrador this year in comparison to that which has gone on in the last few years. We built up a capacity which enabled us to carry out an extensive program in this province the last three or four years, and the capacity is not being fully used this year. The result is that what work is on the go is being keenly sought after. Now it is an ill wind that blows nobody any good.

In this case, Sir, the wind, which is certainly ill for people in the contracting business, and particularly for men and women who look to that business to provide them with employment in the Summer months, it blows ill for them, but it blows good-to carry the analogy through-for the government. Of course it means that bids for work are coming in at less than was expected, or less, than was feared, and thus the available dollars will go that much further. 101.56

June 7,1976. Tape 3246 AH-3 MR.ROBERTS: Be that as it may, Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister of Municipal Affairs could tell us when the programme will be announced and, I suppose he cannot tell us what is in lt, but can he tell us what indication- or can he give us an indication of what, size there will be. I know what is authorized by the estimates, but in a sense Sir, that is misleading. MR. PECKFORD: That has little to do with it.

The Minister has just interrupted me to make the point I was going to make, that the estimates really have little to do with it, because, of course, almost all of the work in this province today that is done in the Municipal Affairs field, all of the capital work, is done under the arrangements which are reflected in the annual bill, "An Act To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act," and what happens is this Mr.

Chairman: The Minister goes to the cabinet and the cabinet at the ministers request authorize a municipality to borrow a certain amount of money, a couple of hundred thousand, a half million, a million, whatever is appropriate in the circumstances. 6n the strength of that guarantee a bank will advance the necessary funds, will agree to do it and will do it. Then bids are called, the contractors put in their bids, the lowest bidder is accepted, all else being equal, and then in due course the work begins, and the money is paid.

In further due course, the bill comes before the House, such as we now have in Committee, to authorize the money and I suppose what happens then is the Municipal Financial Corporation eventually sells debentures and in turn buys the notes of the town council. The proceeds of those debentures, which become, in the hands of the town council or the municipal council through the sale of their own notes, I assume that is the security that is taken, or whatever security it is, is in turn used to retire the bank loan and then the debentures are amortized over a twenty year or sometimes a forty year period.

It is all very straight forward and it is all very proper, it is all the way it should be, I would like to know exactly what is going to be done this year in a global estimate. I am particularly interested in a number of areas in my own constituency. I have not made in this session, what most members refer to as the district speech, as if 10157

June 7,1976. Tape 3246 AH-4 MR. PECKFORD: somehow one made one speech and that discharged one's obligations to one's constituency. In my compacity as the member for the Strait of Bell Island, or the Straits of Bell Island as it should be, the Strait of Bell Island district, perhaps I could mention two or three projects which I believe I have written to the minister about. I am particularly interested in these, there are others, but I am particularly in these, including the situation in Goose Cove and in St.

Lunaire, Griquet, in each of which a major project has begun and is well advanced but it is nowhere near completion. In the case of St. Lunaire and Griquet, speaking from memory, I do not know how much money was put into it but several h*ndred thousand dollars, sufficient to provide the supply, the source of supply, anri to provide a delivery system which takes in about the first fifty houses along the georgaphic approach, along the road through which the supply system runs.

That leaves somewhere between eighty and one hundred more houses to be serviced and obviously a couple of hundred thousand dollars more are going to be needed to lay the distribution system to those homes so that they can be hooked up. The council have been trying for two or three years to get the government to provide them with the necessary money. The government, I think, two years ago advanced another eighty or ninty thousand dollars and some work was done but we are still grievously short of money. Of course it is most unsatisfactory from a number of points of view Mr. Chairman.

First of all, there is considerable tension within the community because some of the houses have water service and others do not. Of course the people who do not have it, not unnaturally are upset as they wish to have it too. They find it very hard to understand why some houses have it before .s>thers, even though there is a perfectly proper and obvious reason. Secondly of course, and I think this is important to, the government are not getting the revenue they could get.

Three or four hundred thousand dollars has been invested for another one or two hundred thousand some additional revenue could be brought in. t.Ot.S8

Jun~ 7,1976. Tap~ 3246 AH-5 MR. PECKFORD: I know it will not s~rvice the debt but then again, Mr. Chairman, the revenue from the rate payers in these water and sewer projects never come close, as a rule, even to servicing the interest on the debt. Even thoughthe Minister and his collegues have forced councils throughout the province to increase their water and sewer rates, in an effort to cover a little more of it-I do not have the figure, but I would wager, that what, in most cases its half the interest payment that is covered by what is taken in, by the rates, you know, and that is a generous allocation. }ffi.

PECKFORD: Too generous. MR. ROBERTS: The Minister says that half is infinitelytoo generous In some cases that I know of they do not even cover the cost of running them, the cost of the man or two Who must be kept on to maintain them, and the bit of equipment that is necessary, whatever it is. So what it boils down to is,ofcourse, that the whole of the cost is born~ by the government through the taxpayers. But anyway I will come back to the overall thing. Let me talk about one or two areas in my own constituency, in the hope that the Minister can respond to those as well as the major points.

In Goose Cove, esentially the same story. There, three or four hundred thousand dollars has been invested, most of it in blasting rock because Goose Cove is built on solid rock Mr.Chairman, and the result is that we have a great supply system and we have it running right to the edge of the community. I think ten or twelve homes are hooked up out of a possible fifty or sixty connections and again we need some more money and the question is can we have some this year? We got in Goose Cove, twenty thousand dollars last year and that was beneficence distributed by Mrs.

Marlene Maynard, a charming lady who was soliciting support in Goose Cove, and she solicited with a twenty thousand dollar gift and we were glad to hav~ the gift. I am happy to r~port that the Tory party got less votes in Goose Cove on a percentage basis than they had ever had. But in any event, at least, we got the twenty thousand dollars, so we have that consolation. In Flowers Cove we have a slightly different situation in that Flowers Cove- 10~59

June 7, 1976 Tape 3247 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: I do not have the total figured out ··what $600,000 spent to date in Flower's Cove? As we were talking about the other day in the House, Mr. Chairman, the pipes are buried six feet down in what is reasonably good ground,in the sense, it is not all that rocky, and they have been buried, ahey do not have to be blasted and buried in that sense, but they freeze up# The system has been oompletely unsatisfactory. Vast sums of money invested, but as yet little to show for it in the sense of turning on your tap and trying to get a drop of water out of it.

So what does the minister have in mind for Flower's Cove? And then if I could cross the Straits of Belle Isle to the Labrador portion of my district, there is, particularly in the communities of L'Anse-au-Clair and L'Anse-au-Loup, there is a problem whereby systems have been partia.lly instal.led, or perhaps more accurately I should say, partial systems have been installed, and they sometimes work and more times do not , The reason that they do not always work is that the hoses are plastic, and this was a case I guess of being penny-wise and pound-foolish • The plastic hose is not suitable .The poly-vinyl, is it?

What is it called, P.V.C.L., P.V. something like that? MR. ROUSSEAU: MR._RQ_BERTS: MR. ROUSSEAU: MR. ROBERTS: P.V.C. I am sorry? P.v.c. The P.V.C. hose- those are all in caps for the benefit of the ladies from Hansard·· the P.V.C. h"'"~' might be satisfactory. But the ordinary plastic hose which looks like an overgrown garden hose does not prove out at all in the climatic and terrain conditions that it must endure.

So we have the case there where a substantial sum of money has been spent, a little more is needed to take up the existing distribution systems and replace them with P.V.C. or,well even, steel, not steel, whatever it is called, no cor~ude pipe, but that is very expensive, and probably not necessary. 1.01.60

June 7, 1976 Tape 3247 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: Mr. Chairman, you know, I could go through all of the districts of the Straits of Belle Isle and talk about all of the communities, but, you know, I do not need to do that. They all need water systems, some need swwerage systems as well. And of course, if every member were to stand and list all of the communities in his district that needed water systems we would be here a lot longer than we are going to be here or than we should be here. But I did want to mention particularly these, because in each case the systems have been started and not completed.

Of course, I want to see other places done. I want to see a water system in Raleigh, and Ship Cove needs some wells dug, and over on the Straits side,on the island side of the Straits a lot of the smaller communities there, Flower's Cove- not Flower's Cove, I am sorry- Sandy Cove and Nameless Cove and Bear Cove and Anchor Point, and these communities, of course, need adequate community water supplies, and in due course they will all get them, the sooner the better. Mr.

Chairman, let me mention one other place in my district where I think something very unique and very positive happened last year, and that is Main Brook. There has been a lot of talk about Main Brook, much of it in the House, all of it in support of getting a proper water system for that community. Main Brook I gather now has a proper water system. And as strange as it may seem, strange in the sense of the Winter conditions, this system has been provided with a LIP grant 0 And the way it was done was that the people in Main Brook with the help of their Federal member, Mr.

Rompkey, and some other help from others whom I am too modest to name, managed to convince the authorities in Ottawa to give a liP grant. The minister was very co-operative, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and his officials, and they came in with some assistance, I believe in the form of a guarantee, authority to borrow, and I believe a guarantee on top of that • Putting the two s,ms of money together, I think it was $100,000 from Ottawa, and $40,000 from the banks obtained through the Municipal Affairs Department's good graces, 101.61.

J June 7, 1976 Tape 3247 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: ----- fhe town of Main Brook managed to get a water distribution system. I am told it is just about completed now. One of two of the council were in last week and on their way back they stopped in to Deer Lake 7 or maybe had to go as far as Stephenville?and got some equipment they were missing, and carried it back Horth in their truck, and the s,stem I am told is now installed.

The interesting thing about this, Sir, and the hearte•ing thing is that, let us say it costs $140,000 or $150,000, That is an incredible~improvement over the $600,000 or $700,000 which was estimated by the engineers. And that is the point I wish to make: that we in this Province, and it is not just the present administration, we in this Province, I think, have fallen into the hands of engineers to an extent in a way that we snould think about. I am all for getting en~ineering advice. And I think it is essential that we do not enter any project unless we have some good,sound engineering advice.

We want to know what we are getting into, and we want to know roughly what it will cost. But, Mr. Chairman- and I do not blame the engineers, I blame the whole system.- I do want to say that time after time in this Province we have gotten into water and sewer projects or water projects and it turned out to be costly beyond belief, and I think needlessly so. I think they have been either over- engineered Gr over designed or in some way nave gone far beyona wnat we need.

Main Brook; the estimates- and I suppose we are fed up sendin~ teams down there, and surveyors and engineers to report on it-- the estimates ranged between $300,000 five years ago, and $600,000 when the most reuent survey was done about a year past. And yet the system has been installed, I am told it is adequate, for $150,000, and I believe it was done under the supervision of an engineering consultant appointed by the Municipal Affairs Department. Well that if that can be done at Main Brook, it can surely be done, Mr. Chairman, at a number of other communities .. 1lH~? -...- --~~···

June 7, 1976 Tape 3247 PK - 4 throughout this Province. And all I would like to say to the minister is that I commend this to him, and I would hope that he could let us know whether this type of procedure can be followed elsewhere. Because, Sir, we have spent more money than we need to. We talked the other day about Makkovik. We are up to - I think $3 million is the current estimate to finish Makkovik, the water and sewer. And they are what a bnrldred and - the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) gave us the figures the other day- there were 120 homes, I think, he told us in Makkovik.

And it comes out to $20,000 a home. Now, you know, this is like Alice In Wonderland. The people in Makkovik have lovely homes, Sir, hut I think that $20,000 in most cases would be the value of the homes in Makkovik. And, you know, we are falling into some sort of crazy situation with the best of intentions - MR. NEARY: The Government of Canada pays 90 per cent of that. MR. ROBERTS: The Government of Canada do pay 90 per cent of the cost, I agree, but that is no justification for spending more money than we should. Because if the Government of Canada spend it on one thing, Mr.

Chairman, they will not spend it on another. And I would like to see them as the hon. gentleman does - MR. NEARY: ------ No this is a special agreement. MR. ROBERTS: I know it is a special agreement, Mr. Chairman, it was negotiated by Mr. Jack Pi~kersgill in 1954, and ~enegotiated a number of times since. But the point is that the Government of Canada only have so much money, and they only have so much money even for the Indiaar·and Eskimo programmes in Northern Labrador. And if they put it into water and sewer, Sir, they will not put it into somewhere else. I would like for them to put it into airstrips.

And perhaps if we had only put $2 million into the Makkovik water supply we could have had a million bucks to build aome more airstrips at Nain, and Makkovik, and Hopedale, and in Rigole,. MR. NEARY: You cannot drink water with airstrips for dinner. 10163

June 7, 1976 Tape 3247 PK - § MR. ROBERTS: No, you cannot drink airstrips for dinner. But, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member would surely agree that if we can get the water for less,then we can have some moaey to put on the airstrips,and everybody is better. And the point is, Sir, that in Makkovik,at least,we got into a situation where we have no choice but to carry through with itJas far as I kkow. Yet the Soviet authorities in Siberia have time and time again shown that you can provide adequate water systems, and indeed sewer systems for far less cost.

And we have fallen into the trap of cutting and digging, and burying, and that is where we go astray. The Minister of Public Works - DR. T. ll'ARRELL: ------- Jou mentioned Anchor Point, is there not some kind of water system there already? MR. F. ROWE: ------ Yes, last year they installed a circulatory hct water system for part of the community. MR. ROBERTS: My friend from Humber East (Dr. Fattell) and my friend formerly from St. Barbe North (Mr. Rowe), from Trinity Bay de Verde, tell me that there is a partial system there. It is an unusual one.

It is an experimental one with hot water, hasted water circulating, and I do not believe it has worked terribly well. And I am going on what the people in Anchor Point tell me, but I gather it has not been very satisfactory, and as an experiment,maybe the verdict is not in, but if the verdict had to be rendered today the verdict would not be a favourable one. You know, it would seem as if this kind of technology will not take us out of our difficulties here.

I wish it would, because, you know, in this Province, Sir, we have to face up to the fact that we are going to have to provide all of these communities with adequate water systems, and most of them with sewer systems, and that includes treatment plants, very expensive machines they are, and it is going to cost us millions and millions and millions of dollars, particularly in the smaller outports, Sir· What we are doing, of course, is the state, the Province,is servicing the lots usually for minimal costs

whereas here in St. John's and in Grand Falls and Corner Brook, and in newer areas people are :101.64

J une 7, 1976 Tape 3247 PK - 6 'Mr. Roberts: serVicing their own lots, either on their awn, or more usually by buying a serviced lot in a development. And that is why the gentle!llan from Bellevue (Mr. Callan) was asking . the other day about lots in Arnold's Cove costing $79000, or $8,000 or $9QOOO each. Well of course the reason they cost so. much is that the individual building his home. Mr. Chairman, is eXpected to pay the true cost of servicing that,

whereas in St, Anthony or in Robert's Arm or in any one of the .thousand communities we could name, and indeed in every c0111111qnity on this list wh.ere 1.01ti5

.Tune 7, 1976 Tape No. 3248 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: the money is being borrowed or has been spent for water and sewer systems, we, all the people in the Province­ and it is a great benefit that the ~eneral revenue confers upon people in our smaller communities. I am not sure it started out that way but it has become that.

What it has meant is that in respect of the settled communities in this Province, in respect of the built up areas in them- in most cases the ~eneral taxpayer of the Province, partially we as citizens, partially Uncle Ottawa, that marvellous organizationlis supplying water and sewer services at very little cost, minimal cost. I do not mind, particularly as my district tends to benefit from the policy but let us realize and recognize what the policy is. Mr.

Chairman, the other points I wish to make are that first of all I think the time has come when we should change the whole basis of our approach to funding these projects and I think the minister would probably agree. This present procedure grPw up over twenty years and it may have been adequate in concept twenty years ago hut today it is really nu~atory. We are not fooling anybody and it is the hei~ht ef absurdity, Sir, to ~o at it the way we are going at it. You look down a list and you see a council, all right let me take one here. The Town Council of the Town of Bonavista, a $1 million debt.

Now Bonavista is a fine community, prosperous community, good people, hard working people but a $1 million debt on a town and they may have more than this, that is only what we are adding now for their pwa,ect, indeed that is not all the cost . of their project, their projectcould be $2 million or $3 million - MR. PECKFORD: $4 million or $5 million. MR. ROBERTS: $4 million or $5 million the minister tells me. 5,000 people in Bonavista 7 that is $10,000 a person. No. lave I lost some zeroes? MR. PECKFORD: You are not being realistic there now? MR. ROBERTS: No and I am not being pejorative.

The whole point is, you know; it is somehow foolish of us as a House of Assembly or as a 10166

.June 7, 1976 Tape No. 3248 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: government to try to say, "Look Bonavista has a debt of $3 million or $4 million and it is going to service it." They are not able to service it. MR. PECKFORD: We cover it then out of annuai subsidies. MR. ROBERtS: The minister has said it, and of course he is right, that it is covered out of subsidies paid annually and it would he far better surely.from every point of view , if we were to change the system so that grants were made and the fact was reco~ized for what it is.

What we have done is created a colossal debt structure in most of our municioalities, most of which are on the verge of hankruotcy,and I do not use that in a legal sense but I use it in a practical sense, we have hamstrung them and hampered them and J do not think anybody intended to. Twenty or twenty-five years ago when this policy began it was possibly a workable one. In those days the rates paid by citizens would make up a large portion of the cost of servicing the debt and the subsidy would be a small part.

Now, as the minister said.a few minutes ago, the rates in most cases do not even cover the annual maintenance costs let alone any portion of servicing the debt and I think that we should recognize the facts for what they are and we should change the policy. I mean the obvious way to do it , is seems to me , is to set up some sort of water and sewer board to develop some criteria for saying, "All right.

We are going to provide every community of "x" peoole - 200, 300, 500 oeople, whatever it is or up, with adequate water and sewer facilities, water only or water and sewer as the need may be.And we have to be genereus there because, you know, if we do not provide a community with water or water and sewer as the need may be, the commtmity 1dll die. You know in this day and age a community must have access to an adequate water suoply. So we set them up, set up an authority to find some criteria, cut out so many millions of dollars a year and then set to work to spend 1.0167

June 7, 1976 Tape No. 3248 NM- 3 MR. ROllERTS: that mon~y to produce the results,and the obvious way to do it is to capitalize th~ sum and to borrow money and pay it back as we go because the services will be needed for many years to come and it is only right we should take many yeaws to pay for them. And I am not suggesting by the way that this authority be separate from th~ government, I do not think we should derrogate our responsibility. I think th~ government should do it but they should do it through this mechanism.

The authority could presumably be made up of some public servants~ you know, that type of approach, But I think it is tim~ that we cam~ to grips with it and no longer attempt to load the burden on the muntcipaliti~s. They are not able to deal with it. It only interf~rs with them dealing with more prop~r and necessary responsibilities. I would like to see our municipalities,instead of having to get into this type of thing, get into operating the systems and maintaining them where necessary. It would be necessary in most cases. I would like to see them get into zoning controls.

I would like-to see them get into servic~s to property and services of that nature which are more properly municipal, I am particularly anxious in development policy and in land contrml and land use policy because I think that is where the concern should be, not in this type of housekeeping. Along those lines, Mr. Chairman, let me ask the minister if he could indicate exactly what criteria are now in ~ffect. I could hazard my own gu~ss as to why some communiti~s seem to b~ struck by financial lightening and hav~ millions or hundreds of thousands of dGllars mad~ availabl~ to them and oth~r communities do not.

I susp~ct th~re aze larger communities that do not have the asRistance they need. You know it is hodgepodge, Now I could read into it, we all could, Mr. Chairman, you know various explanations. We might suap~tt that in some case the ~mber for a district is a little more 10168

June 7, 1976 Tap@' No. 3248 NM - 4 MR. ROBERTS: efficacious in pressing his caus@'. We might suspect in other cas~s that some nf it is partisanly political. You know we are all grown men and these things have not been unknown. But I suspect that is not the full story and I want to know what is the story. Is it a case of the squeaky wheel getting the greese, in which case all W@' are doing is invitinR councils to descend upon the minister and his offtcials ~nd to make life miserable for them until we do get the assistance we need. What is the criteria? I could think of a number of possibilities.

Is there an amount per household that we will use? Is there some ratio of communities over 5,000 getting fixed up and then communities over 4,500, and then right down the line. Is there some health connection? When I was Minister of Health one of the great ploys that everybody in the Province pulled, every municipality wculd get onto Mr. Doug Strong. MR. PECKFORD: They are still doing it . MR. ROBERTS : '' They are still doing it ;' the minister says. Mr.

Doug Strong was the Chief Environmental Health Inspector 1 and still is as far as far as I know, and one of the officers would go out and he would sample the wells and how many times have I seen it, ~ there would be eighty-seven wells tested and in ei~hty-six the water would be impure >by the official standards . MR. PECKFORD: And the other one was very doubtful. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the minister obviously has seen many of them too.

The other one would be doubtful and of course this would give the council concerned not only an additional arrow for thPir how when they came to try to persuade the department to part with a few dollars, several hundred thousand in most cases, but would give them one more reason to believe in their own mind they had to have it· I thinK I am safe in saying tnat tnere nave not been very many cases that I have heard of in my years in public !ife mf illnesses caused by bad water. There have been some.

But I know of very, very few really in the tDtality of it and , of course , the answer for that is in many cases we have become accustomed to drinking 101.69

June 7, 1976 Tape No, 3248 NM - 5 MR. ROBERTS: bad water, not fmptre, not necessarily sickening by any means, but bad water, bad water l.y the Health Department standards. Are we still using this? Has something been done? Mr. Chairman, I could go on but I do not think that is needed.

The points I want to make, other than the ones· affectomg my own constituency and I would hope the minister would respond to those by giving us an assurance that the work will go ahead this year in these communities, not necessarily finished but that more money will be put in· Becauseotherwise the money that is in there now.1 and I suppose there is over $1 million in those five communities I have named - L'Anae-au-clair, L'ADse-au-Loap, Flowers Cove, St.

Lunaire, Griquet and Goose Cove, $1 million to $1,5 million and yet none of it is benefitting anybody and it will take another $200,000, $300,000 or $400,000, whatever it may be,to bring those five projects to fruition• They , have to be finished and until they are finished the money is just on the dead, completely gone, completely wasted. So I hope -needless to say the minister will assure us, I know he will give the matter, I know he has been giving it consideration~but out of it will come an assurance that some work will be done this year.

The minister probably cannot say so now but I hope that is what will come. that is what will come. The other points, just to touch upon them briefly are ; I would like to hear the minister talk about policy. Are we going to see a change? For the reasons I have explained I do .not think the present procedure is adequate any longer. It was adequate twenty years ago. It worked Tery well.

But we must accept .the fact that the government of this Province now have to assume the responsibilit~ and hopefully with help from Ottawa if we can get it but if not on our own,for providing adequate water systems or water and sewer systems and to do so we,I think,are going to have to adopt some different means. What is it goin~ to costj a couple of hundred million dollars( You know it is only a couple of hundred million, a lot

June 7, 1976 Tape No . 3248 NM- 6 MR. ROBERTS: of money. The Minister of Finance would say more rhaa we could afford but given four or five or six or eight years of a concerted and .co-ordinated attack on the problem I would think , Mr. Chairman, we ~uld see the day when every community in this Island and Labrador will have adeouate water supplies from a public source and where they need sewerage systems will have them . I do not think it is that far down the road. It is going to cost a lot of money and it may take us - MR. PECKFORD: MR. ROBP.RTS: The problem is in your town and your community planning.

All r ight , but it may take a Jon& time to pay off the debt. That does not particularly bother me because I am one of these people who believe we will never pay off the national debt and why should we? You know England has had a national debt since 1694 and has never paid it off. MR. PECKFORD: Canada has had one since 1868. MR. ROBERTS: Canada has bad one sinc e 1867>because the first borrowing was taken just after they became a nation in 1867. :10171

June 7, 1976 T<>pe 3249 IB-1 "P • "POBERTS : r.eneral ~~otors, n0body ·worries abC>ut General Motors' debt which r,ets larp,er and l<>rp:er everv year as they issue debentures 1 or Bell Telephone. Sure Bell Telephone's debt is larger than that of most countries in the world. That is not our concern hut the concern is what we have to show for it and whRt <>mount :Is required in annual sertici.ng charges and what percentap:e that is of what we have ava:llahle. Those are the concerns. The total of the deht does not particularly concern usj it :Is the proportions and t.he amounts that we spend each year.

So I think that th:ls is a valid point for government expenditure. It affects most people in the Province. Those of us who have access on a regular basis to W!'lter and set•Jer services do not th:l.nk too much of it. It :Is not particularly appealf.n~t. But, Sir, to those people who have not p:ot :It or to those members ~'hose districts have in thell' commun:l.ties, town!' or what have you th<>t do not have proper water then, you know, the matter is urgent. I do not suppose there is anythin~t in. my d:lstrict,other than possibly paving the road from neer Lake to St.

Anthony, anything that is of greater concern and :Interest to people and I would think there is noth:l.ng more important. While the road is very pleasant, and in many ways essential, nothing is more essential than adeQuate pure water supplies. Perhaps it is appropriate we should be talking about this no•~ with Habitat on where Lady Barbara Jackson, Barbara Ward , but llaclv Jackson :In her private life, a lady whom the gentleman for Tw:lllinp:ate (~r.

Smallwood) could tell us about hecause he tried very harcl to inve:l~tle Lady Jackson and her husband into coming to Net•foundland,hut a laily of immense erud:l.tion, immense vis:lon, one of the great thinkers of our t:l.me, Barbara Ward) and we all heard her speech at the Habitat the other day where she talked about pure water betnp, the p.reatest blessin!! and the most urgent need of the world today. I th:l.nl< we heard ~·r. nanson respond by saying 1980 is the target for r.anacla and 1986 the target for the worlcl.

Well the fact remains, Sir, 1980 is only four years away and we still have many communittes in Newfoundland and Labrador that 10172

June 7, 1976 Tape 324q IB-2 M'. ROBF.liTS: do not have anything like pure 1~ater. So I will end,at least for this point,by sayin~ that I hope that ~r. Danson and his colleagues at Ottawa will respond to Barbara Hard's appeal by making it possible for us here. Because we could do it on our own but :It will take us an awful lot longer than if we can get substantial help from Ottawa.

Indeed :If there is one thing - I do not know whether nREE should nREE is not an answer to all our problems - but if there is one thing, one cause, for l·lh1ch in my view we could look to 0ttawa for for sympathetic and substantial assistance it is this whole matter of providing our people wHh adecmate water suppJ ies. The problem is actualJy p.ettinp worse now. A few yeArs ago the people in smaller communities did not expect it and did not want it and did not desire it. Now, Sir, they do.

So these are a few, not random, a few thoughts on the matter of the bill, ~·r. r.hairman I hope other members wHl get :Into :It. Althou~h I hope we do not spend the afternoon ~ett:ln~ into district matters. Fvery member, obviously, '0.'1.11 want to mention his own concerns,and that is ri~ht and proper) but I hope we can also touch upon these policy ~atters. I think they are important and I think the Pause shou]~ ~e concerned with them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~n>._NEARY: 1o<r. rhairman, I would l:tke to have a fe1~ words in connection with this b:lll, hill No.

JB which is really - this I.oan Authority C:narantee Act - which :Is really merely pey:lnp: off dehts,approvin~ commitments and financial obligations that have already been made by the government. This :Is an annual occurrence to hr:lnp: thil! bill into the House. One of the amounts, Sir, in this hill is for $100,000, twenty years for the community of Isle aux }'orts. Now, ¥r. Chairman, I do not know whether members are aware of the fact that Isle aux Yorts is still a local improvement district. They have no community council or no town council. I am saying this t.Ot.73

June 7, 1976 Tape 3249 IB-3 t-Ill .• NEARY: for the minister's benefit }IR. OOODY: That was for paving. trn. NEAPY: l'Cir paving. I hope the minister is payinl? attention to What I am saying. I am talking about the community of Isle aux ¥orts. They still, I believe ,have a local improvement rlistrict. They are still a local il'lprovement district. They do not have a community council or a town council.

I believe the time has come now,because they have a spanking new water ancl sewer system down there only a few years old and they have practically every road in the community paved and there is $100,000 called for in this and they have a marine haul-out paid for ninety per cent by the Government of Canada. It was supposed to he built in Port aux Basques - DP. FARRELL: It was the ex-member. MR. NEARY: Yes. - supposed to he built in Port aux Basoues and ~hifted over to Isle aux Morts by the member for Isle aux ¥orts.

Anywav, ¥r. r.hairman, the point I am trying to make here is this, that because the water and sewer system is there and because the fish pl:ant is there and the ma.rine - MR. CALLAN: Haul-out. MP. NEARY: Nolit is nCit a haul out. It is a marine service center> station, that is there. I believe now the time has come for the minister to think about the establishment of a town council or a community council in Isle aux ¥orts because - MR • PFr.KFORn: ~-lhy a community council? It is a sizeable community. MR. NF.AFY: Mr.

Chairman, I am not going to argue about the minister and his new philosophy and his ideology and the minister making arbitrary decisions and takinr; a dictatorial attitude towards co111111Unities Who want community councils rather than town councils. I heli.eve the decision should be left to the people. Let the people decide what they want. You have to learn how to crawl before you can walk, Sir. Why go straight into a town council? For instance.~ we have the argument going now between the minister and a group of concerned 1.01.74

June 7, 1976 Tape 3249 IB-4 M1'. NEAPY: citizens - you J.now, Mr. Chairman, I am like the hon. former Premier I cannot listen to t~·o conversati.ons at the same time. I cannot talk to the minister while he is carrying on a conversation with one of his collea~ues - but we have this continuing battle now goin~ on between the minister and the people in Burnt Islands. The minister says because of the populat:!on and so on that they should have a town council and the people are saying they should have a community council . ~'R.

PECKPOJ!D: Just let me explain something to the. bon. member if he would permit me. ~~- NEARY: All right, sure. HR. PECKFOPD: The people or the committee of Rurnt Islands are say:lnp; they will have a communitv council or a local "Improvement district and T ~m sayinr, they should have a town council.

Ann they are on the one hand saying they would not mind having a local improvement district hut are against a to~m council when in actual fact there is no difference in the powers of a local improvement di.strict and the tm,m counc:f.l, and in po5.nt of fact, a town council is more democratic and would ~ive the citizens there a better opportunity to vo:fce their v:fpws. I cannot under!'tand that kind of a position. ''P.. NF.Al'Y: "I>TelJ, }~r.

Chairman, this is a matter that the minister will have to sort out Pith the people of Burnt Islands because I am not go:!ng to get - Well T thourht J was talking to a very responsible member. ~-NEArY: Hell the minister is tallrinr: to a very responsible citizen. I a~ al] for whatever the people of Burnt Islands want. -~· PECKFORD: Escape, escape, escape. Tightrope, tightrope, tightrope. ~- ~AR~ Mr. Chairman, is that not the common sense, the democratic posi.t:lon to take? YR. PErKFOPn: No , it is not. yP, NEA"PY...:_: Well it :Is, "r.. r.hairman. But an~ray - 101'75

June 7, 1976 Tape 3249 IB-5 ~'R. PECKFOPD: Stand up and be counted. }'R. NEAPY: - the battle is on. The people say they want a commtmity council. They want to learn how to crawl before they can walk and the minister is sayinp.;l.~to' 1 and the minister is adamant. Fie has du~ in his heels and said, "No, it is a town council or nothing." ~- PECKFOnn: Precisely • . ~.NEARY: Well, Sir, the people in Burnt Islands are not very pleased about trat. l-IP.. PEr.KF'O'PD: lvell I am not very pleased with the people of Burnt Islands. I no not think they are being realistic. MR.

NEARY: The Committee of Concerned Citizens wrote the min:l.ster recently and the minister promised me,as the member for the district~ that the minister would take it up w:!th his colleaJ!:ues, have the matter reviewed with h:ls colleagues. I hope :It is not like the promise the minister made to the to~m council in Channel-Port aux llasques when the m:l.nister said that he would not withhold a revenue p,rant and lo and behold the next t:!me they got their revenue grant it "-'SS - _MR. PECKFORD: That was mechanical failure within the department . ~'R. NEARY: Well it may h.ve been a breakdown in communications.

J am p;oin11: to attribute it to a breakdoT.m in communications in the minister's - ~. DOODY: You said they p;ot their revenue grant. tvhat is the problem? ~. NEA~Y: It was slashed, cut in half and it has been cut ever since. I saw a letter that the minister wrote the other day and the minister - -~DOODY: They have more respect for the minister every day. m. NEARY: No. The minister welshed on his deal. He gave this council -I was there - p;ave the council his word. MR. PECKFORD: You are talking too much and you do not know. MP.

NEARY: Well I have a copy of the letter that the m:!nister sent out the other day saying that there was no way they were going - _m. PECKFO'f!J): A little bit of information is always dangerous. 10176

.Tune 7. 1q76 '!'ape 1249 TB- 6 ~~. NF.APY: Well I have a copy nf the letter. T can only - I-ff'. PEr.KPOPT': Yes but that came in the sequence of events. Another piece - ~w. Nl".ARY: Th~ sequence of eventa is that t~e ~in1ster told, ~ave hi!! word to the tc>wn cc>~mcil of rhannel-l'ort aux BRI~<ntes tha t the revenue ~rant would not be cut until they half an opportunit y tc> try to rene gotiate their stadi\nn., the outstanding al'IOunt on the financinP, nf the1r sr a f1iu~ with the l'ep~trt~ent of Rehahil:ftation a11d Recreation.

And befo re they had a chAnce to open negotiations w1th that depa rtment the revenue v.rant was cut. The minister says now there is no way thnt he ts go1 np, to r.hanp.e thnt. !<'ell maybe there h no way that the nepnrtment of Pehahjlttati on and Recreation will offer them any a ssjstance and p ro~ablv that - 1-11'. PECK FOP.P: That might. ~. NEAPY: Okay. I am not narrow-minded about jt . T am try1 np. to be factual a~out it .

But pettinp hack to Isle aux ~orts where I star te~ off - I will tTavel down the coast ~etting hack to Tsle aux ~orts I belie ve now, $jr, that the communjty of Jsle aux Mor ts shoulri have ~ tO\oiTI council . '-'l> PErKFOPl): A town council. MR. N£ARY: Now that is my 10177

June 7,1976. Tape 113250 AH-1 opinion, they should have a town council because - MR. PECKFORD Burnt Islands should have a town council. MR. NEARY No, Burnt Islands do not have the facilities that Isle aux Norts has; yet• MR. PECKFORD Well if they are going to get them they have to have a town council. MR. NEARY No, Mr. Chairman, Isle aux Morts bas all the facilities as a local improvment district. MR. PECKFORD Of which there is going to be no more. MR. NEARY Of which there is going to be no more. But the people of Burnt Islands do not yet have the facilities.

Now that the facilities are in Isle aux Morts , I believe that in the best interest : of operating the whole thing in a businesslike manner, that the people of Isle aux Morts should now be given an opportunity to elect their own repL'esent­ atives to a town council· And I believe the Minister will disco'llerr· tl?.at at the moment, in my opinion,and I have only observed the situation very casually , although the people who are appointed are doing the best they can they are becoming completely frustrated. I would say that the area is suffering because the business is not being conducted in a businesslike way.

I believe the sooner that the Minister takes steps now to give the people of Isle aux Morts an opportunity to elect their own representatives,and get the thing set up in a businesslike way, the better it will be for all concerned.

Now , down in Burnt Islands, ~ight next door, the community that is practically next door to Isle aux Harts , the government is just finishing off an industrial water line down to the fish plant, down to Eric King Fisheries. 'fbe industrial water line should be finished the end of this month and some people , you know1 along where the main line is going down to the fish plant some people have managed to hook into the water line. But generally speaking there will be no water services in that community. The people are still carrying water in buckets. t.Ot.78

June 7,1976. Tape 11 3250 AH -2 MR NEARY You go down there in the middle of the winter or in the middle of the summer, it does not make any difference, people carry water in buckets, just like they did five hundred years ago when Newfoundland was discovered. 1 do not know what kind of buckets they had then,but the y are still using the buckets. ~U{. PECKFORD MR . NEARY ~1R. PECKFORD The same as Margaret used. The same as what what? The same as ~!argaret used at Habitat the other day. HR.

NEARY Yes wellthey are using buckets down there in Burnt Islands, and the only thing the industrial water line will do 1 is it will give people access to hydrants , the fire hydrants, the long line that runs down to the fish plant. So I hope Mr. Chairman, that the minister will be able to resolve this problem, this dispute between the minister and the people of Burnt Islands rather quickly, so then the people down there can get the badly needed drinking water that they need • This is badly needed.

It would aimost make you feel ashamed of your life when you go down there and see the people having to lug water, some­ times , I would say, a-half to three-quarters of a mileJ to lug water in buckets in Burnt Islands, DR. FARRELL I -was 'mndering, are they being hooked illegally into that water line? ~m. NEARY Well I do not know what SO: :I: ::o:~. HEMDt;RS: Oh, Oh! HR. NEARY Hr. Chairman, over on Bell Island, I know,Dosco had a water lines for the operation of; the· mine and '~e used to have to bootleg the water 0 ''le used to hook into the line after dark DR .

FARRELL That is what I meant,t~ey are bootlegging water off the lfnP, MR. NEARY No, I would not say they are bootlegging. I would say ~~tr. Chairman,that in some instances, I will not say in all , but in some instances, the only vay that a community could get a water supply is to have it financed by the government of Canada through DREE What is it a 90-10 arrangement? MR. PECKFORD: No. 75-25, or 100 percent. 10179 I

June 7,1976. Tape II 3250 AH-3 MR.NEARY: percent. Q, PECKFORD: l:!"ldu~trial '·'ater tines? Nl:l thPv ATP - MR. NEARY 75-25. Well Sir, we have to be thankful for small blessings. If it so happens,Mr. Chairman, that the industrial water line goes through a very thickly populated community, could you blame the people for wanting the stops put there so that thev can hook into that water supply? I mean it may be getting domestic water through the back door, but it is not the first time it has been done in a community in Newfoundland, and it will not be the last,! suspect.

Wherever you have these industrial water lines runninginto fish plants and so forth into businesses,Iwould say nine chances out offtrm that Dree and the Dept of Municipal Affairs and the government knew that it was quiet likely that the people who did not have drinking water may tap into that line.

Whether it was done under cover of darkness or done with the blessing and the knowledge of the Dept of Dree and the provincial government, no matter how it was done , it was done and it was a good thing • But, the industrial water line that runs down to the fish plant in Burnt Islands comes down the main road, and it does not really go through the more thickly part of the community at all. Now the •people have to lug the water ~ MR.J. WINSOR It crosses the breakwater into the- MR. NEARY Well it goes across the breakwater over to the fish plant. llut the people on the other side still have to lug the water.

The only thing now is they are lugging it from a hydrant over to their homes 1 and inthis day and age 1 Sir, I do not think that is 1uite right, I do not think it is quite good enough. Then you go from there down to Rose Blanche. Now there is a problem. But before I leave Burnt Islands could I- various ministers have tried to resolve this - MR. PECKFORD The town council. MR. NEARY The town council. Well~Mr. Chairman~ then we are going to have to stand off, we are going to be almost as bad· as the l;:!:!.nister of 10180

June 7,1976. Tape II 3250 AH-4 MR. NeARY Finance is with Nape at the present time. That the- HR. PECKFORD I thought with your rhetoric and ardent persausion that Burnt Islands would have been a town council three months ~go. MR. NEARY \vell .. Sir, if the han. minister would care to come down \dth me to attend a public meeting - MR. PECKFORD done. MR. NEARY meeting and- MR. DOODY: his rounds. HR.

NEARY I sort of sense that that is what is going to haveto be If the minister will come down with me and hold a public The minister of Transport might drop in if he is on \-/ell the han. member has already promised me that he would come down with me - MR. PECKFQRD; You are on his list. Are you? HR. NEARY To take a look at the causeway to Grand Bay West,otherwise I am going to have to leave. l1r. Chairman , the situation is really serious in Burnt Islands and I hope that this matter can be resolved at an --early date as possible so that they can get on with the job.

Because there is no indication even from the minister nor from the government yet that Burnt Islands is even on the list for water and sewarge. NR. PECKFORD It can not be until they are incorporated. MR. NEARY Well that is right Sir, it cannot be until they are incor- porated and now we are up against a situation, which came first,the hen or the egg • You know, ~lill the iMiliillter give a community council or a town council' And Hr. Gerald Farrell, the gentlemen who spearheaded the- HR. PECKFORD 'l'he infamous situation that we have at Rpse Blanche. ~m..

NEARY -who is the Joe Carbage of LaPoile, heading up the group of concerned citizens, Sir1 will not rest until the ~linister resolves this very, very serious dispute . Yes,that is the gentlemen that spearheaded the movement for the water supply in Rose Blanche. And the hon.gentlemen is blind,by the way,and even he could see the need for :10:18:1

June 7,1976. Tape 113250 AH-5 MR. NEARY a domestic · water supply in Rose Blanche where people, especially) school children,were drinking the polluted water filled with insects. MR. PECKFORD He moved out of Rose Blanche. MR.NEARY Mr. Farrell moved from Rose Blanche to Burnt Islands,-bu~ I think he is sorry he made the move. He is very lonely and wants to move back to Rose Blanche again. I cannot say that I blame him for that because his friends - and he could find his way around Rose Blanche

whereas in Burnt Islands he cannot. But while he is in Burnt Islands he is going to do the job. He is going to fight the good fight and I am going to help him to fight the good fight. The gentlemen is a good friend of mine and a very intelligent gentle­ men who is completly blind . He may be blind but he sees the need for improvements and progress and along these lines our hearts are beating as one.

Now in Rose Blanche Sir, we have a different kind of a situation that the Hinister is familiar with , where the water supply is supposed to be financed , well not supposed to be, is being financed on a fifty-fifty basis. Fifty percent cost-share. Fifty percent paid by the province and fifty percent paid by Dree, by the government of Canada. My hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition was talking about the system that the Russians use. Well I would not be a bit surprised by the time we are finished in Rose Blanche that we will be able to teach the Russians a trick or two.

Because the system that we are putting in Rose Blanche is probably the most complicated in the world and it is a system that is being put practically on top of the ground. It is a system that is very complicated in design but apart from that it is very costly and there- in lies the problem 0 Because when the Minister called public tenders for the second phase of the water system at Rose Blanche) Lo and behold~ when the public tenders were opened that the lowest bidder, the lowest tender was about,~hat?- almost a millon dollars?

Between three quarters­ and a millon dollars over the estimated , the origional estimated cost of the project. 10182

June 1,1~/b. Tape IF JL:Jv AH -b HR.HEARY There-in lies the problem Sir, and when the engineers and the various people in authority took a look at it they almost had a stroke. They could riot believe that estimates could be so far wrong, could be 10183

June 7,1976. Tape li 3LJ1 AHIFl MR . NEARY so much out. So the minister now has to find somewhere between three quarters of a million and a million dollars to do the second phase of that project. The minister and his colleagues in the provincial government have taken a decision, that hhe provincialr government would continue, would put up the additional fifty per cent, their fifty per cent of the cost ofthe project. The matter now rests in the hands of DREE • Last Saturday when I had a meeting with the Ron. Mr .

Don Jamieson in Port aux Basque~, when he presented my honourable friend with a cheque for a half million dollars .-and I am glad to see my honourable friend back in the house, and ~ did not head for Costa Rica with that cheque for a half million dollars-that I impressed- DR. FARRELL: It was not a personal cheque? ~lR.

NEARY No)it was not a personal cheque, It was for the Tourist Information Center at Port aux Basques • Although the han. gentlemen went into the Big Dipper on the way back with a couple of newsmen. /, he told the bartender that he wanted to buy the~wo newsmen a drink and when the bartender serve d the newsmen the drinks, he said "I am sorry I do not have any cash with me, You will have to take a cheque!' •And the bartender said "Oh_ that is all r;J.~tht Mr. Hickev .I recognize you.

You are a minister of the crown • Of course, I will take your chequ~' So he slapped the cheque for a htlf million dollars on the counter and the bartender picked it up and said' "Oh, five thousand dollars. 'lie do not have that much change here!' And, of course, the han. gentleman reminded him that it was a little more than that and so I think the bartender ended up by saying ,'!The drinks are on the house ; 7 because it was the first time he had ever saw a cheque for that much money, for a htlf million dollars. MR. DOODY: But the hon. minister does not drink. MR.

NEARY: Nolthe hon. minister was having a ~inger ale. But I must confess 7Mr. Chairman, it is the first time that I have seen a cheque for that much money in my life, a half million dollars. 1.0184

June 7,1976. Tape II 3251 AH/12 MR. NEARY: But anyway, Sir, the province now is prepared to put up theirfifty per cent of the additional cost of that water supply for 'Rose Blanche. So the matter now rests withDREE, with the government of Canada and with Mr. Jamieson. I tried to impress upon Hr. Jamieson, when I was in Port aux BasquesJthe need for the hon. gentleman to do a little arm twisting when he got back to Ottawa. Because it is urgent now that the tender, that this contract be let and construction get started before the snow comes on the ground again.

The government has acted in good faith, I have to give the government credit . The government in this particular instance have acted in good faith. MR. DOODY: We better have another look at it if you will agree with it. MR. NEARY: Ho1Sir, this government- the Ninister need not take another look at it. I told my constituents,when they elected me as an independent Liberal in t ld .s honourable house) that when the government deserved a little bit of credit, I would give it to them.

And when they deserved to get the flick, I would give them that too,and the same way with the Opposition and that is why I am siting here as independent Liberal. So in this particular case, I have to say that the government have acted in good faith. They have done the right thing, and now we hope that Mr. Jamieson will be able to come through and persuade his colleague, the Hinister responsible for DREE to put up that extra half million dollars or whatever is necessary to get that contract let. and to get that project started right away. Now1 Mr.

Chairman, I am now down to Rose Blanche and I would like to go across DR. FARRELL: To Harbour Le Cou MR. NEARY: No Harbour Le Cou is in pretty good shape. I would like to go across - DR. FARRELL: To Diamond Cove. MR . NEARY; I would like to go across to Petites. 1.01.85

June 7,1976. Tape 3251 AH/!3 DR. FARRELL: Diamond Cove is in pretty good shape. MR. NEARY; Well,Diamond Cove needs water in the worse kind of way. MR. MURPHY: They are in bad shape. MR. NEARY; They have no good drinking water in Diamond Cove.

They have to lug the water in barrels and in buckets • But across in Petites,just about only fifteen minutes away by boat, all they are looking for there is a little water system like they have down in LaPoile, that the minister put down in LaPoile about a v~ or so ago) andthat is a water system on top of the ground• By the way1 I do not know where the Leader of the Opposition has been all these years. Here you have a water system in LaPoile and I was there during the ~inter, I got stuck ther~ for two davs. DR. FARRELL: I heard nothing about that .

MR.NEARY The only house on that whole system, that is running over the top of , the ground because the terrain there is all rock, the only house that used to freeze up during the night, and if the sun came out in the day it would thaw out, was the house that I stayed at, Hr. & Hrs . Phil Courtney •• , MR. DOODY That is more than just a coincidence. MR. NEARY; I do not think it was sabotage, But that was the only house that froze up. And here is a system on top of the ground, I could not believe it. There is the pump house. over by the pond, pumping water down through- MR. l'I!:CKI!URIJ MR. NEARY· MR.

PECICFORD: MR. NEARY! There is a lot of water there, right? There is a lot of water there, yes. They got an open-ended system. And so they can leave the taps on, Is that why it does not freeze up? Well anyway there is a lot of water down on the back of Petites, in a pond. And all the people want down there is a little pump ·house and a couple of pumps and plastic hose to run a line: in throu,rh the community of Petites on top of the ground) and the people will hook 10186

June 7,1976. Tape s 3251 AHIJ4 HR.NEARY into it thems elves , They do not want - they are not looking for any favou rs of running lines into their - HR. PECKI'ORO ~!'R . ~EARY MR. PECKFORD Have they got a water committ ee there? Beg your pardon. Have they got a water committee in Petites? I do not t