VOL. l liNED I TED TRANSC.."UPT SOUSE OF ASS~~LY ~OR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. -6:00p.m. WEDNESDAY, DE~~ER 5, 1979 NO. 44

Oece..."!ber 5, 1<:'79 Tape o:o. l61J s~ - !. T~e ~ouse ~ac ac 3:00 P.~. ;tr. Speaker in the Clair. MR. SP!::AlCER: (:Suet) Orcier 1 please ! !l.'l.. 3?E..'\.:...,R: The hon. Leacicr ~f ~~e Cpposic!on. :·ta. :l. J;;;.tu:so::: :1=-. Speakar, t=u.:lk you ·1e:y much. I ·fllould have C.iscussed so~e ot.he= ~.a~t~~ ·.:~cier t~ose circ'.l!:' .s<:anc2s, ~ut tl'-... ese are none t~le lass i.ru.portar...~ and r 3...."'!1 s~e :.he Pra=nier :-.as ver-1 good reason :or :10t ~ei."lg here- I ;.>euld l~ke tc asx a CiUestion ':o t~e ~!inister of Trar.sporca.eion and Cor..m1.1ni<::atio~ (:rr. c. 3rect).

Ir.. view of t.'le concerns of all t::e!!'.bel:'s a:c.c~:: be 1530 read cons~.lc"Cion pro;ram=-.e- we talked a fe""" cic.ys ago aCo1.1c "t~~e p:-oject.s w~ich are ex.cll.lsi~;eli- wit.:Un ~he j~risclicticn of tl'".e Province :?l~s =~ose ::nat may be subject to a DREE agreement - may I ask ir~tially whe~ t~e ffiiniste: wi~ht be ir~ a ~osition ~o L~Ci:ac; tc t."le iiouse ami to ti-.e ;?U.blic . .,.hat the ?.a-ely ?rovincial reads ,?rograL~e for 1980 is ;oing to be? ar.d c~mmunications. t·1:t. C. 3RE':.":': }~.

Speaker, t~t information ~s ~oc usually available L!Iltil ~'"le esti:r.ates of ::.."1-a depart:::lent are apr.rov-ad. I think ;.a;;t i·ear ,..e ;ave - did we give a list last year of t~e roads that were to ::,e done? AN E0::-1. :!El13ER: (Inaudible) HR. C. B~TT: l'.'ha t:. was bei."lg done actually. i·::all, t.'le i.-..fo=.a.tion '<~ould not be available ·.1ntil t;,.e esti=lates :·~e passed in ~'le ~o~se. M ?.. D. J:'...:-aESuN : t.'le Opposition. Supp!ementar:t, .1:::. S;?e3.~er. Supple~entary, the hon. Leader of . 4058

;)e<:e!:"J:er :; , 1979 Ta;e :lo . lOl: S::> - 2 if a.."\c when t..'le n!!cessar :r !-.mcs are puc in ? lace. 'rloul:i c:.."le =inis:~r t..'le: e for': ccnsi dar ehae ~.i ;,d of ciecla: .e.t..!c ~? : 3..~ s ·.1: ~ ::?... 3. :.!..z; o ! . ·~. 3 . :rr.;..-"'.'1 : I e goes 1:0 ?riorides ::i.r st. . .. :...~. . ~0 59

~ecee=er 5,197~ ':'ape ~ro. 1614 ciffiC".llt to say w:-tat roa('.s 1dll ~e done u..,ti.l ~~~ 1'"-'1cw· the aJr.ount of !:".Oney. ~·:e l·ri.!.l probably ask for 1':!0 ~iles anc it :::oils <:'own to our getti~q fif~z, for ex~~le. So ~t is real!y ~i!fi~~l~ to give ~~at infoet.ation Lltttil ':Te know ~~actly what :r.or..ey is availe.ble. ~~.S!?:E:1'~?: (Butt) :·!P.. JJI.UU:SC~: l'he hon. t.":.e Leader of t.":.e ();:position. I~ *ell aware of the difficulties .

I 3111 SU.."'Frisec 1 h0'.-lever,that t:-.ey do not appl'.( when it ~t:'es to !:".aking refe!!'ences to !!'Oac!s "'hid'. are goin<; to be built if ~FE!': fu.'lds are avi!ilable. ~row I •• ,ould E!<:e to ask the ~on. ::ell'ber ···hat is t."'.e status of t."'.e negotiations ·,;it.!"'. t."'.e feceral qo•te=en':: at Otta .... ·a. with regard to a continuation of t.":.e roads agreement that has been in place and ~edified ov~r a nut:'~er of years? Can he give t.":.e Rouse any indication as to (

a) when it is likely that a. new agreement will, in his judgement, ~e negotiated ~~~ (

b) when will the details of it be known? ~~d co~unications. !o!P .. SRE":"!': ~e hon . t.":.e Minister of ':'ransportation ~s far as I :~.ow, ~- Spea~er, the Province ::as r.ct approac~ec Otta..-a at this stage '"'it..":. tr.e shopping list eithe!!' for DP::E or t.l\e T-rans-canac!a. ~igh,.·ay. '!'o t:~e !::est of ~"· :i 1-.ncwlecge it has not. We are still working on a list of roacs :hat "'e "~ul~ like to see done,=ut I arn not arsoJutely certa.L~ ~hen the Minister of Inte .rgovernmental Affairs, the Premier, when he will oe in a position to present that list.

But I u.~C.erstand at ~":.is stage of t.":.e ga!l'.e it has not been presented. ~F.. JAMIESC!I : A final supplementary. A final supplementary, and t.~en ! will recognize t.":.e hen. ~e~~er for Eagle Rive~. l'.R. Jli...".IE!=ON: Mr. S~eaker, I AI!! stJ:rprised to hear t.i.e hen. gentle!!' .an's statel!'.ent. Given t.'l.e :act that •·e ha.ve,.2r.d it is a matter or record, seen public sta.t~er.ts by various spokesmen for the ~ove~ent incicating t.":.e intentions of the government to get DPZE funcs 4C60

Decer:o.her 5 , 1~79 '!ape No. 1614 AH-2 or ~o se~~ OP~ funcs for ve~J specific work and also,of course ,we are now at t:.'?.e end of the tr.an$­ Canaea F.i~h\~ay agree~nt, J; ask t.'le l:'.inister ,and I wish t.":ere was l!lore but since it is a final supplementary, is he confident that since t!lis is now the nior.t.lt of Cece!lll::er and t,he neqotiati:l.g process has not started, is he confident t.'l.at the n~otiations, even if thera is ~.ieability on all sides, ~~ch I suggest is a lot to expect, that he can 9'et, indeed, federal funds into :-oad building in ti:'.e for the 1980 season? lolR.SP!!JIJa:~.: \!'iuttl and COI!l!!W1ications. :.tR.B~~ The hen. the Minister of Transportation Well , I wOUld hope t."'ta t we can , ~~.

S:~?eaker, but a.ssuminc t.'lat we no not it does not ~ean th~t there will not be any work next year because we still have $80 l".i.llicn laft in o:ur TCP. agreement. Jl.!'l ROtl. ~.r:l!EP.: (!naUCil:l~J MP. • B P.F'!'T : I realiz .e that. I m not sure of t."''e exact ali'Ount "but there is $18 to S20 Jni1 ,;,..;, left in the 0~ aqreemer.t:. So whether or not a new TCP. agreell'.ent is reae~ed or whether or not a new !>P.EE aqreement is reached there will still be a significant amount of work done with federal funds next year. 4C61

Uace~e= 3, 1979 - 1 '· supplarr.encart c;:1:.estion ·.-it.":! raga!:c ::c tne rca~ agree=-.ent ancl c.~.. Sees e!le ~·!iniscer of 'lransz;orta~ion and Communications (~1r. Dre~t) ~now ~~at ~~e roa~ i~ the Strait of Celle !;ole fro~:~ L' Anse-au-Clair t:o ::Sc;. ?::.?i is included \lll.C.er t.'1e ne" ::>?:C:Z. ~o the provincial roads agree~en~?

Will building programmes t4ke place on U1e Labrador coast next :iea:r? ~he ncn. t!.le ~·1inister o.: ':'ranspo~.a.1:.ior .. ar.d Co~~~ication;;;. tile li;;;t is not com~lateci. .;ll I c~• say is that the road :rom Blanc S.wlor.. to ~ci Say has very ~u.g;, pricrit:i a.:; far as ::his gove=n:ent is concerned. ~n fact, it is alruost a must tha-c :J~E g:c involved because t.'lat is a very, very ey,pensivP. ~ai:. =d as I have said publicly on a n~er of occasions,t~at i~ is a vert Cad read.

If ~P~E Coe~ ~o~ get invclveC.,t.'"len obviously t.":le Provir.ce is <;cing to .1ave to C.c ic. ·:nat wcul.-i "'e !:'.os~ \lllfortunac:a :Cacause it •.o~ould taica muc.":l, tr.uc:."l J..or:ger. 'J:he saconC: ;:art of your question was roacis on t.1.e coas~. ~· . d .l.ava sou~ se tt~e.~en ts in tir.C..

I travelleC. ~'1e coas~ last year; actually ~ight on up to Nain, and I was once con- ce:rned ~it~ t."le Sout."lern pa~ of Lacraeor sines that is .,.,:1ere ou.:: respcnsibili~es lie, l.i;;e to go in and spend fun~ to build soi:!E! reads a:-.a upgrade sc::.e roads tnat are there but again I nave not reachea a defin~te decisicn as to exactly ~hat communities will be done next year. c·!lL Sl?~R: A suppletr.enta.rj, :tr. Sre~ar. The h~n. mamcer for Eagle ?~ver. iias be t1inister of 'l'ransportation ar.d.

Comcunications tahen into accou_~ advising the DPIE agreement that t."l.e road from !. 'Anse-au-Clair to aed Bay ~e extended to :'!ary' ~ ,.a:::: our? MR. SPEA.;:;::;::.: T:,.e hen. :·tinister of 'Iransfortaticn a.nci Co=unications. 4062

~ce~er 5, 1979 not sa:::. _::~.. S • ;~:C:il.RY ' ~IA. SP~R: {BL"'I'!") 1·\R. S • ::.'EA.RY : Tape ~o. 1615 ~·r: - 2 I have to take ~~ac as no~ice. I ~ Hr. Speaker. The hen. mer.~er for LaEcile. !hank yeu, =tr. ~pe<ll'er. ~y c:;.ufllsticn is for t.'1e Premier. I :.;oulc! like to ask ~~e Premier ~'"le official position of uis government vis-a-vis the savage ra~ increase ~~our.ceu cy ~'1~ Govern:z:ent of Canacia on ~1e <.ast coast ferries? :OiR. SPEAKER: The hen. ~'"le Premier.

Pl\Ei·:l.E:R i?.EC.~C!ID: I think tee r:osition of t..':e Gc·..err.C".ent of iOe"Wfouncil.~"""l.d on that 1r.atter nas ~een articulated on a nuo::ter of occasions, "::.y t.'le :-!inister of 'lo=isn: (:tr. ro~·er) in t.le last nw::;:er of cays . ar'd cr,e of which we are ex~re~ly concerned anC we will continue to a:gue Eorcibly in every forum we can that t.'"lis is unnecessary at this time because "We think it nc:.t cnl:,- ;.;ill inpinge u_.cn cur ongol.r.g, i=?rovL'lg ~ourist inC:: us try ;.;Lr::. on various other :r.atters of concern to us as it relates to traffic, :reig:1t and ~assen;er, c!:.at is on;oir.g ac:oss t...'-lere en a re~ular !:as is. !'IR.

SPE~R' A supple~entary, the hen. reemCer for La?oile. as the hon. gen~leman just answered my question, that is the official .:;;osition of t.'le Province~ ~'le one expounC.ed on radic 1 I zelieve, or television last night "'here t.'le uLinister stated mo sent a :ele:< ~o Ottawa zut ~e aid not expect to get ~~y reaction to his :elex 1 is tha~ ~~e offici4l reaction of t.~e government?

If tl1e Preoier has declared war on Ottawa 1 snould he not go a step f~'"ler anc ki~~ ~'"le stuffings out of the~ over this t.'"le same as the gove:rn:roent did when the Liberals •.o~ere the govern­ JUnt up in Ottawa, when ~r.;{ friend kept t.'le lid, t.~e Leader of the i..ppcsition (Mr. Jamiesonl,kept t.~e lie! on? Should t.~e governr.~nt no~ not go a step furtner in t:.:1is C.eclaration of ••ar on Ottawa? 4063

December 5, 1979 Tape No. 1616 NM - l MR. SPEAKER (Butt): A point of order, the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The Question Period, Mr. Spe~~er, is for the purpose of asking questions, not for ~~e purpose of making speeches or hurling charges and innuendo and trying to make cheap political poL~ts. !-1.'<.. NEARY: My question to ~~e Premier, is that sufficient - MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, I would ask ~~e hon. gentleman to please put ~~e question. :-!B.. NEARY: Well, what I am asking the Premier, is it sufficient just to send a telex to Ottawa pointing out the effect on the tourist industry?

Or should the government not kick the stuffings out of Ottawa for imposing another hard­ ship on consumers in this Province by driving up ~~e cost of living because these increase will apply in the main to tractor trailers coming across ~~e Gulf on the CN ferries? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~~e ?remier. P~~IER PECXFORD: Mr. Speaker, we ~1 to have our opposition on any issue done in a rational way.

Now the telex ... as sent yesterday,and if in fact there is no response from the Government of Canada to that telex,we will t3ke other initiatives, and be strong and for.ceful and aggressive in o11r opposition to this latest move on increasing ~~ese rates. No question. But we are not going to do it on the heels of a telex~ we are qoing to wait and give d11e notice in the same way ~~t we have done on most ~~ngs in our dealings with ~~e federal government over the last number of months.

As one witness, for ~~==~~e. as we talked about yesterday on ~~e •Nhole question of the fishery, we have been negotiating and communicating both by letter and other,ise on that very vi tal issl• .e and it was only after a lot of communication back and forth that we took the position we did. 4064

December 5, 1979 Tape tlo. 1616 PREMIER ?ECXFCRD: As it relaces t~ this one, ~~e same kind of principle 'N"ill apply, and that is ••e will begin ow: opposition in a responsible and reasonable way and if indeed a response un!avourable to us comes back then we will respond again even more aggressively. If there is no response,well, ~,en we will,of course, through the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, and the Minist--y of Tourism,and through my own office, take addicional action to try to ensure that this kind of increase is not passed along. MR. SP~R (Butt) : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary, the hon. NM - 2 member for LaPoile, followed by the hen. member for Port au Port . MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like co ask ~~e hon. gentleman what ~~e alternatives are and if ~~e hon. ger.tleman would be kind enough, seeing now ~~at he just thre~ something new in ~'lere by saying ~'lat negotiatons have been ongoing for some cime, would the hon. ~'le Premier ~are to table ~'le correspondence, and table the swee~~eart telex that was sent by his ~nister of Tourism co Ottawa- a li~tle rap on the knuckles - would the hon. gentleman table all the correspondence L~ connection with any negotiations that may have been going on wi~~ Ottawa in connection wi~'l the ten per cent increase en the East Coast ferries?

That is only fair,to let the House ha ve the information ~~d the people. ;l1R. S?EA.i<ER: The han. ~remier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, obviously as the ~er for LaPoile did not underst~~d the response to my last question. I said ~~e same kind of principles in talking to the federal gove~~nt would now apply as it relates to this issue as it applied to the cod issue. There have not been ongoing negotiations with the federal government as it related to ~~is rate increase at all. MR. ~1'\R.Y: ~ou were not notified. 4G65

December S. 1.9 79 PREMIER PECKFORD: 'I'.hat is tl'l.e point. Now I bow to one of the lllinisters if they- had previous notification and how lonq that notification - MR. N!4UtY: There was no prior consultation? PREMIER P:EC:S:FORD: Mr. Speaker, if I can aaawer the question without being interrupted by the llon. member for t.aPoile;> M.'!.. NE.'UY: M.'!.. S!?EA..'<ER (3 u tt l: ~~swer in silence. MR. .j',!\!1 !ESON: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Yes or no? was there !?rior consultation? Oraer, please: Allow the hen. the Premier to ae is sulking now, like a little baby. A suppleme..'l.tar!, Mr . Spea<er.

A supPlementary, the hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, whether the Prem.i..er or his colleagues aie precisely corre.;:t in saying t:..l?.at there have be.en negotiations on t.'lis particular rate increase, every 4066

December 5, 1979 Tape 1617 PK - l Mr • Jamieson: member of ~~is House knows that it is almost a daily matter for negotiations between Ottawa and Newfoundland, and bas been, I suppose, for che last ~hirty years or so.

Hy question to t _he Premier is in relation to the at least one, and maybe ~NO communities tba.t have been es~lished with regard to transportation in Newfoundland, a.r4 I relate it to his statement in Bishop's Falls some weeks ago; does this announcement, which, I gather he says he was not familiar with or aware of ahead of time, mean that that group or the groups are not in fact discussing the impact of East Coast ferr1 rates as part of the total package? Did the Marine Division of CN, whatever it is called now, not in fact advise the government in advance? MR. SPEAKE!!. (SU'l'T) : ?REMIER ?ECKFOP.D: The hon.

Premier. Hr. Speaker, I do not know where the Leader of ~~e Opposition or the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) get the information. From the answers that I have given, I have indicated that we have opposed the present increase 1:hrough the Minister of Tourism (l'.r. Powe;l. On the noti!ication of the rate increase coming, I was ;oing to bow to the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Hr.

Brett) and the ML~ister of Tourism who could give additional information on this ~atter, which in no way, therefore, indicates that we were not informed or that we were informed but additional L~formation was to be forthcoming from the respective minist=ies. I have just been handed a letter - because Z wa.:lted the minister to reply because I kne•o~~ tr.a.t he had some information from the respective Ministry in Ottawa on t.IJ.is ve:ry matter, which the minister dealt with and this is a letter from :1r. Maza.nkowski on t.~e whole question of the fare in= eases for the Gulf. MR. NEARY: What is the date?

PREMIER PEC!i:FORD: On November 30, I guess, it was received here in the Province, or that is the date that is on it. so, you know, there has been notification - I will bow to the ministers involved to give additional information - but here is a letter from l'.r. Mazankowski dealing with the matter ~~t I just had handed to me. The respective ministers can answer in . 4067

December S, 1979 Premier . Peckford: MR. NV..RY: MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER (Biil:'rl: MR. J]Uq!SON: '!.'ape 1617 l?K - 2 their own right. Are you tabl~g that? A su.pplementary, Mr. Speaker. A su.ppl-ementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. I u.nderst41ld. My 'i'lestions, I a.ssu.re you., Mr.

Speaker, are not argumentative, ma.t:ely seeking i:Uorma.tion. 9ecause it is important, I think, that what has really happened here, I find, u another demonstration of Canadian Na.tio;1al just simply liiOVi.ng ahead on somethinq when the.l;e ue consultative processes in place. ! 4111 surpr -ised that there was not, through the nf!90ti.ations and the c0111111ittees. that have been set up, more advanced in.fJ:I=ation and more oppor1;.1mity for the Government of ~lewfo~4illd to conti.nae to express its opposition. If the Minister of Transport wishes to answer me, that is perfectly all right with l!le.

But r want to ask hill!, is it in fact Ule case that either this Terr.a Transport, or whatever it is called, or East Coast Marine simply went ahead lll1d jl.lSt advised at the last moment, Nov~ 30, that this was .be.inq done, when in fact presumably otfici£ls of bo·th governments Md been meeting ever since those committees were set up several ~ths ago? And it seems to me ridicu+ous that they should, in the lllidst of a plan for overa.ll transportation in t:.'l.e Province, 4068

::lecelllber 5, 1979 Tape 1619 EC - l ~IR. JA..'UESON: suggest to the hon. ~nister, Sl.lddenly intrude t.'lis par...icular item without any regard for t.i.e consllltative process. /'L~. SPE~R: (Butt) and CQmmunications. X.~. BP.ETT: ':he hon. the !-1inister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, I cannot be specific on tl'!.e dates t.'lat we were in touch with Ottawa or ~i.e dates that :..'ley infonned us t.'l.at a rate in=ease would ta.l(e place, !:lut, obviously, we were advised, because on the 21st of Septe~er, I officially w~te Mr.

Ma.zankowslti. strongly opposing the ra~;e increase. :;a.r I <:!o not have the :opy of t.'le letter. Obviously, it is downs ":airs in cy files, but we did oppose the rate increase on t.."le 21st of September - t.i.at was official - and we got a reply from Mr. Hazankowsk.i on :~ovember 30t.i.. )1.'<.. NE.:u>.Y: ;, supplet:lenta..-y question, M.r. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, t.'le hor .. t.'oe t:~er:6er for LaE'oile. :·IR. :iEARY: I would li.k.e to put a question to tt"-.a ?remier, Sir, in connection wi t.'l - t.'-u: Sullivan ?.oyal Ccmmissior. reco=ended that a committee be set up representing the provincial governrner.t and t.i.e federal government, a."ld ! belie~-e t..'le l'rem.ier confi~ed in this Ho\!Se sot:l'i: ti~:~e ago that t•.r.

E:d O'Brien, t.."le Director of Transportation, ·.ras the provincial representative on that committee. liould tl"lere net be consultation between CN or Terra Transport; and this liaison committee on which t:."'.e provincial goverrunent is represented'? And if not, why was t.'l.ere net consultation wit.'l t.'l.is Committee? Would the hon. gentleman tell us, apart from a couple of letters back and fort.'l., if t.'le provincial gove~nt representative reported. to the qovernment that C~ was going to increase t.'le rate by 10 per cent and. thus increase the cost of living in this ?~vince? !A.R.

SPEAKE?.: The non. t:.~e Pre~er. PRE21IER E'ECKFO<UJ: Mr. Speaker, I do net ~"lOW ~i.e specif~c answer to ~hat question, with :lr. O'Brien in t:."le consultative committee that has been set up •.rit.'l Terra Neva Transport and tt.e ot."'lers - Ci and related. transport federal/provincial meetings ~•at have been going ahead 4069

Oecel:lber 5, 1379 !?~'II:E:R l'E~ORO: ahead and did it. .lll I ca.."l ;;,ay Tape 1618 ::c - 2 whether he was informed and ~•en wen~ and I do not think it is a minor catter, as e!le hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary l seec::s 1:0 t.'1in.'< about it. I'.?.. NZAR'i: I think it is a major matter, th.at is wh.y I brought it up. '!ou t.'l.i."lk it is minor because you have not attacked the Government of Canada over it. MR. Sl'EAI<ER: (Butt) Order, please! As soon as e!le ~iinis ter of Transportation and Communications (l'.r.

Brett) was infortned or hac! info::mation relating to the increase, he i:rrmediataly wrote the r.U.nister responsible opposing ic: i."l t.'le strongest te:ms. So we are doing all t.1.at we can in the respective ministnes to ensure that this increase does not ':ake place. And e!lat ~me is t..,_e importan: issue here, •o~fhet.."ler or not t....,e tninis~rJ' has, in fact, o~sed t.'1ese increases ~hen it came to their at~en~ion.

And in obvious answers to questions given by t.1.e Minister of Transpor~ation and Co~unications, we have aggressively opposed the application for increase, no question about that at all. ~low, whet.i.er,in fact, the mec."lanics of t.i.is ?articular cccmd.t-eee­ that l'.r. O'Brien was infor.ned and the mec.'lanics saw to it t.i.at t.1.e minister was inforiDed, t!le fact of t.'le matter is that as soo:1 as the :1.inister of Transportation a.'"ld Communications had k:~owledge of the increase, he

:'ape ~~c. l6l9 SJ - l. • ·.:>... J. :i0D!JER: Suj?plecent:ary, :lr. Speaker . :-:.'i.. J. iiO:)OER: is aware,· five to ~irty-five foot class ~l~ss che~~ wa~, I talieve, prior cioes -:he gover::.ment int:end to pay !::ou::t.ies ~r.. ~oats i::. t..~a ~ ... ,.e:;o.'":y-fi·Je to th..irty-fiv~ foo~ class in: ~sa ~G.rts of t:...~e Provicce ~~-::.e:; t.:-:.; Oc~Dar 31st? I ·"':...:.1 ta~e notice oZ ~hat:, .1::.

Speake.:, a.nci =-ay ! say in ta.1<ing r.oti:e t..":at ve:y s~ort.l:,· •e i;1ter .. d to !:lake a statet::ent as it relates ~o tl-' .. e overall progra..ttu:t2.s of ~:= risherias ~oan 3oard ~- ~~e ~ex~ number of days. :-!..'i.. :;oo:>:::R: :·t:R. Sl?E.,.?.:::R: l?ort au Pert. !-:..ct. !:!ODDE:t: Supple:: 1entary, ::r. 3peaker. I ~o·ould l~e to poL"l':. out, :tr.

Speaker, as a prelimin;u-y t:c t.'le su;;:plernenc.arl t.'lat on tl"'e (lest coast ';.~ere were no ne..,spaper reports, no notifications in the papers or in t.'le electronic rnedia,and this has be~~ checked by the Fisne~.en's Association, ana t.~e notification to the ir~pector i~ t.'le area, t.'le f el!ow :.rho goes around anC. rnaasures the boa ~s, wno usually !-.as ::ontac~ officials-or if t.~e fisheries official ia che area ~~ew,he did not inior.m ~~e fis~erwen , and where ~~ere Nas no meciia ~~ose fisher:en sho~la recei~;e ~~e bounty,particularly t.'lose fishermen who had started c.~eir ::Oats '..lilcier t::.e old ;;:rog::a::une .3.."1d now are !ookir.g for ':.he ' 4071.

'"ece::lber 5, 1979 ':ape :;o. 1619 :-!R.. J. HODDER: Zount~t co t:.1y tar.;ir..es anci t.h.e wi':.arewithal to get t::.eir boats reaO::.y !or t."le Sprin·;,? The hon. the ?re~i:r. ~.tumber one, :·!.:'. SpeaJ.c:.er, I ~-:.oc;O.t it :-.ad to do with. boats below ~·:enty-fh·.a :e.at - net t·llenty-five to ~1.i:rty-five - so I n.aice t...~t distinction: ~hat is ~y recolle::t..ior., it is twenty-five and below.

Se=ondly, to the :-:on. a:e:::-.ber's ·V~est.ion, obviously it ~uld see.o:~ free:. . .,.hat the ~on. ::=Jjer says ::.;,at t."le fis~er.:ten so concerned have a ver-J strong ~ase 1 a!"ad I •,woill take the c:.atter ~~d ~ke sure it is discussed in ~"le next twenty-four hours ~~ber says is true and there ar~ cases of t...1.at well I art su:e · .. ;e I will look upon them extre=,e!y s;~pat~etically and take t."le necessa~· moves to er~~e that they are not discriminated against ~ecause of lack of information due to t.~e fact t.~at info~ation fl~w in certai~ ~arts of t~e Province rni;~t ~ot he as qooC as in o~.a= par~s of the Province. ~1.."<.

F. ?.0\.'E : Su?plec:.enta~J, the non. me~~er for Tri~ity - Bay de ve~de. :-.:...-:t.

F. ~t:E: ':.::~e ?:-emisr a. :~uestio~, I:: arises ollt of t.he a.;1swe: he ;ave to tl1e f.i:st ~~estior .. f::;;n :r.y colleague. iie sa.i~ that. he will be u.aki:-.g Mow, about t.~ee and a half weeks ago t.~e Pr.a=ier ~ro~is~d ~~c .Eiouse that he ~uld have a statement wit:'li."l. two weeks "'ith ~ega~d to t.'le :Fisheries Loan aoard anC. that is over a week old no..-. co~ld t.~e Pr~~er i..'1.c!icate to t...,e E:ouse exa:t.ly ·Nhen ~e · .: .~ll =...:. mak.L'i.g a stateoent wi~~ :es~ect to st.at'.ls of t.hc E"is::cries !..oa.."'l 5oar~? 4C72

Decel!'ber 5, 197<1 Tape ~lo. 1E2~ ;..F-1 !~. SPE~~?.: ('3uttl '!'he hen. the !?re.'llier. P~!E?. PtCY.FCFD: I think t.':e hen. the F.ouse Leader, t.lJ.e ?resiC.ent of the Council, responcec to c;:uestions on t.':is l:'.atter :~•esterday. M..."t.F.ROtoiE: But he did not give ahy ar.s,.·ers. P!'n'IEP !?E:C"!'ICP.r: As I indicated in my previous ~~swer to the hen.

D'.ell".ber for Port au Port (Hr .f!odcl!r) 1 .,,e are in t.".e ;:inal s<caqes of putting together a statement on the Fisheries Loan Board. ~e ~atter has !=een 1lllder reView, t:..~der stuc'y by a special cc=ittee,internally •.vi t.lJ.in govert'.r.'ent, a."'ld that report is now in and ca=inet is now stucying it. ~ere is a Cabinet r.~eeting tomorrow to further discuss it and hopefully within ~~e next ~"-ree or four days we will be able to ~aka a fairly co~re~ensive statement as it relates to t.lJ.e ongoing actiuities of t..,e Fisheries !:.oar.

Board. :·!hether t.'lat is Friday o::- !!onday - it could stretch into Tuesca~ just f::-om an a~.inistrative point of view· is !:.he kine of tilt"e para:t!eters ! azn talking arout. :lut I would t.!:ih!-: no later ':han Tuesday 1 an.: I a.T- just sa ring Tuesday as the l!'ere fac-e of giving myself enough time knowing what has to ~e done to get to t..,at stage. Hopefully it might even be Friday,~ut I would not want to be bound to Friday because it lt"ight stret~lJ. into ~onday.

So he~~een F::-ieay anrl Tuesday seelt"s like a reasonable period of time in ~hich •.re '"ill be able to do it: a.-:d ! regret t."'-at we are not at le to do it h@fo::-e that time. It is just i~possible given all t.~e oth!r things that we nave had to do.~d I appreciate the hen. ~er is still o~ his feet and wants to get up and speak and I am sure as seen as I ar.o. finished wit.'l t..':is an~1er, ~r. Speaker, t.'lat he can get up again a.'ld ask another question. I thank hill! for standing and I t.'l.ink we should draw our bayonets 1 Mr. Speak~r, and go at it. The non. ~~~= for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MP .• F.

F.O'-'~: ~r.Speaker, I regret, you knew, t~at the Premier is treating t.'lis so lightly. I am asking the question not 4{J73

'!'ape ~lo. 1620 .:W.-2 !"''!'..F. ?.O~i'F.: ~o embarrass the hon. ~~e PPemier but in view of the fact ~~at ~~ere are ~unCreCs of fishe~e~ out ~~e~e wanting to l<:now t~2 ans,~er to that particular question and I am disappointed that ~~e Premier is treating it so lightly. A fu~~er supplementary, Mr. Spea.~er. !~R. ~!FJ!,.P.Y: He cannot get his picture in ~e paper. ~~~ • E' • F:Ot-:E : Mr.

Speaker, in view of the confrontation with Ott~~a now and the sta~e of t.'le Fisheries Loa." Soard and, in fact, ~~estate, I would say,of ~'1e Depa~ent of ~isherie~, when does the Premier expect to te able to a.~nounce a full-time ~inister of Fisheries,which is hadly needed in this Province at the ~resent ti.l!:e? ?-'"!.. SP!::,.;(!:P: (Butt) PPJ"~:r:::F. PEC:FOI'!T'I: The hen. the Premier. First of all, !!r. Speaker, I was not ~eing li~ht wit.'! the question.

I was teing ligh~ with the stance of the hor.. member, the physical stance as he had stood as I was speaking, so I was only ~ing light of soreething that had nothing to do wi~~ the issue at hand ~o which the hen. ~e~ber was addressing hi~self. ~at is number one. The whole question of when tr.ere will ce a full-time ~inister of ='isl'.eries - II'Y ans ... •er to that is the same as it '"as before; very , very shortly. 1-!P .• F. P.O~!! : :-!R.SPEJI..KER: ~-!P. .LO'SH: :-:0\ri short is verJ, very shortly? A good question. The han. the me~ber for Terra Nova.

Mr. ~pe~er, I have a question for the !tinister of Lar.cs and Forests (~:r.Mor-.anl. Some weeks ago the ll'.ini.ster initiatec! a feasibility study to ascertain the forest ~nc.'!ustry pote-•.c1.al gorr.eo.o~here in an area beb4een Gancer and !!onavil'l:a . ~~~{be t.'1e ~inister can indicate the precise area in speakinq to the question. ~ q'.lestion is 1 I am woncering .... !lat set of circ-..mtStanr:es prcry~ed this stuey because II'Y understanding 4074

December 5, 1979 Tape No. 1621 NM - l MR. LUSH: is t.'lat there are always ongoing studies in t.'le Department of Forests wit.~ respect to forest potenti~l, so I am just wondering h'hether there are any new sets of circumstances t.'lat prompted this study, whether it is related to the recent forest fire in t.'le Gambo-Glovertown area, whether it is related t:o t.'le Rayo forestry ~11 there in Gamba? Just what circumstances prompted t.~is atudy and when does the minister expect results? ~. SPEAKER (3uttl: The hen. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I assume the hon. gentleman asking the question is referring to the announcement made approximately two weeks ago that the two levels of government had agreed upon carrying out a detailed feasibility study for two areas of t.'le P:ovince where the:e are existing wood supplies, where we feel that these wood supplies can be utilized and turned into an industry for the area to use t.'le existing wood supplies.

The tenders were called and a total of thirteen submissions received, these subcissions are now being analyzed by the two depar~ents concerned, Industrial Development and t.'le Department of Fores~t- We are hoping to be in a position to· award a contract to have these studies carried out sometime over the next number of days and we will have the report to gover~~ent by the Spring of 1980.

And we are hoping that the study will result in sufficient evidence to warrant the attraction of industry to establish in either the Great: Northern Peninsula or the area from Gamba to Bonavista, t!1.at general area where there are existing wood supplies which we feel should be utilized and turned into an indust--y in the area. !'.&. SPEAKER: ~ ~upplementary. The hen. member for Terra Nova. ~. LUSa: wonder if the minister could be more specific in terms of establishing industry.

As we all know there are sawmill industries there now, and I referred specifically to the one in Gamba, the Rayo Forest Industries there. can the !tlinister !:le more specific in what kind of industries he is hoping to be able to 4075

December 5, 1979 ~!R ..... usa: MR . SP~~<ER (Butt) : M.."'. • HORGAt>j : Tape No. 1621 NM- 2 establish as a result oc ~~ese s~~ies? The hon. Mini.ste.r of Land -s and Forests. !1r.

Speaker, as a result:. of s,.;cc.essful negotiations between the COI~~pany , Bo~·a"t:ers , and this administration, we were successful in arranging, unde.r the existing forest management plans , to have the lands on t:he Great Nort..'J.ern Peninsula passed i>ack to government from Bowa-ters , which means we now have a very adeq~te supply .of timber l and or forest land in that area whic h we feel ca."\ be .utilized for a possibility of a t..;,er:no-mechanical pulp plant or a pu.l? mill or a waifer board plant or any kind of a plant t:.hat wo\:lci manufacture maybe t.issue paper or things of that nature, a manufacturing plant using the wood supply which was originally held by Bowaters and as a result: negotiation has now been passed back t:.o the Crown.

On ~~e o~~er peninsula, the Bonavista ?eninsula, and the general Port Blandford , Cl~~nvil!e, Gamoo area , there are adequate wood supplies there which cannot be utilized by the existing smal. · . .oawmill operators, or in faot by t:.he larger sawmil1 operators.- and • we reel that this wood should be ut.lized. It is mostly over-mature and •,o~e want the ·.<ood to be utili~ed by means of some kL"'\d of industry, as I mentioned , along the lines of a t..'ler,.\O ~ rnechanrcal pulp plant, a wa.ifer board plant or a tissue manuiaoturing plan~, sotneminq o~ that nature.

And we are hopi::lg that the results a·f the studi~s will.. show that and show ·the ::easi!:ility o"' attracting tilat Jd.r1d of industry in the area. 4075 F;.

Dec'!lllber 3, 197 3 MR. S?EA.'<ER (BUTT) : MR. JAMIESON: ~PEAKER: OpPisit~:J.. MR. JAMIESON: Tape 1622 Order, please! The time for Oral Questions r~s ~~pired. On a point of order, Jol'.r. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Leader of the PK - l Mr. Speaker, I suddenly realized in aski."lg my questions with regard to the increase i."l ferry rates that I had !!lede a statement which I have no doubt that unless I say something now CN's public affairs and public relations people will be denying all over the place before tomo=ow. I said ~~t it was CN or Terra Transport that increased the rates.

Obviously they will reply to that and say that in fact they have to have the authority of the Gover=ent of Canada to do so 1 ar~ I know that to be the case. And I just wanted to make that clear so that I do not have to go on for the next = or three days saying that I had put the emphasis in the wrong place. I would also,in conjunction with that, Mr. Speaker, on this point of order 1 I was not sure whether either the Minister of Transportation t.Mr. Brett) or the hen. ~IJ.e Premier had indicated whether they were going to table the correspondence in question. SOME HON. MEMBE.'<S: Oh, oh! MR.

MARSHALL: To that point of order, .Mr. Spe.sker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. I"..R. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I want to point out that is r~ly,with the greatest respect, that is not a point of order; at the very best it is a point of explanation. And, you know, the explanation mark for my point is followed with a question mark, because it is not really a point of order. MR. NE;l..'!.Y: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: difference of opinion. MR. l'<"EARY: A point of order, .Mr. Speaker. Okay. You have to rule on that one first. To the point of order, this is merely a On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. 4076

Decelllber 5, 1979 MR. SPEA.'<E.~ (BUTT) : LaPoile. MR. NEA..~Y: Tape 1622 PK - 2 en a point of order, the hon. member for In my cross-examination of the Premier a.'ld the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) L'l connection with the lO per cent increase on the East Coast ferries, the Minister of Transportation produced a letter and quote4 from that letter, and ;ny understanding of the rules of ~~s House, Mr. Speaker , is that if you quote from a letter, even if you quote a date , i£ you refer to a letter then you have to table that letter in the House.

So I would ask Your Honour to direct the Minister of Trans~rtation to table the correspondence. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: the Council. MR. MARSHALL: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. President of There is no poi:lt of order. The hon. mi.'lister did not quote from any letter, number one. Number two , if there was to be a point of order, a point of order has to be Uken up illlnediately. You cannot ~ake points of orders about •..rl:-.at happened five .. m;inutes ago, you know, five hours ago, five days ago, five years ago.

For that matter ,you will get comple.te disruption of the House. And number two, if the hon. gentleman you kncw,the hen. gentleman is in a very testy mood today. This is the Question Period which has been brought in by this government fer the benefit of the Opposition and be would be well-advised to use it as such. SOME HoN. !-!E:..~ERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. .l-IEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: SOME H.oN. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: not have a··poL"lt of order. Hear~ hear! Order, please! oh, ch! Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, pl!!ase! To the point of order. 4G77 The gentleman does

December 5, 1979 'I'ape 1623 EC - l MR. S?EAJCER: (Butt) Hon.members, ! wish to Helcome to ~e galleries ~~is afternoon, ~~r~ young people f:om across Canada who are in St. John's performing volunteer work at Pippy Park and the Rotar"f Park under S t:. John's project !Catimavilc. The co-ordinator is Mr. Jim Winter and ~~e group leader is Xr. Eric Austin. I a1:1 sure all hon. melllb~rs join with me in welcoming t."lis grcup to our House of Assembly. SOME HON. MD$E:RS: Hermitage. MR. S'I'E""'A.~: Hear, hear! PRE:SE.~TING ?ETI'I'ICNS 'I'he hon. the member for Fortune - 'I'hank you, Mr. Speake:-.

I rise to present a petition on ~ehalf of 602 residents of Har.bou:r Breton. Before I read the prayer of ~'le petition, I woulC. like to say t.'lat I strongly sup?Qrt t."le :;?etitior.. I have visited t.'le Anglican school at Harbour Breton and ~~e con:!i tions under whi~"l t.'le students have to study are C.efini:ely not adequate for th.is day and age.

Just to give you a :ew eXallt£lles, bot.'! t.i.e primacy, element~J and high s~"lool are under one roof; t.'lere are no adeq~te dressing rooms for ei tiler . .,ing; inadequate g-.{l:".nasium - really, it amou."l.ts to one gymnasilll!l for approximately 500 students; ::.~ere is no lil:lrary in eit.~er school.- the present librart is used as a classroom; no rool!l for the public healt.~ nurse to see students; t.'lere are no showers for students using the gymnasium; no extra classroom space; no resource centre.

The present classrooms are too small. 'I'o give you an example, we have forty-five students in a classroom 23' X 23'. We have nineteen students in the library, which is 21' X 16', and we have seventeen st1.1dents in a resource ror,?l. wt-J.ch. is 23' X 16'. The present lab also must be used as a part-till1e classroom and, really, t.'"le list goes on and on. 'I'he prayer of t.~e petition reads as follows: '":.'o the hon.

House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador, the petition of the undersigned citizens of the town of lia~ocr Srel:on hU~rbly sayeth that the present school is inadequate for t."le provision of an acceptable standard of education for the youth of ~~e integrated s~~ool 4G78

Dece::lber 5, 1979 '!ape·l623 :::c - 2 MR. STI:'"oiART: system or l:lar.bour Breton; that there is a lac.~ of classroom space to accommodate present anC. future enrolment.

Library, resource room and lai:lora~ry facilities are presently used for classroom space; that the gymnasium facilities are inadequate • At present, • two s c.'lools , Y..ing Acade~ , :;lrimary 1 elementary and high schools, total enrolment. of 4SiJ students, are using an auditorium for gym pu:tposes; that there are 1 U."lder t.'le pre~ent system, no dressing rooms, shower facilities and storage space; t.;at the acute lack of space makes it impossibl~ ~o offer any IIIJre t.'lan tha core s~Ji:ljects, areas such as ll!ath, lan<;uage, science and social studies.

The students cannot presently hope to get. into other areas such as home economics and industrial arts, etc.; thac sil"l.Ce lial:bour Breton is a growi.:1g community 1 c.'l.e present sc:.'"l.ool cannot hope to meet c.'le future needs of an increasing population; that projected enrollllent for T:.'l.e next four years show a star<:ling in=ease ir\ the high school; that in light of t.'l.e a..forell!entioned circ=stances, T:.'l.e Gover.unent of Newfoundland and Labrador take illll!tediate sction to alle•Tiate T:.'le problem, namely, that a new high sc.'"l.ool facility be provided for c.'l.e integrated high sc.'l.ool students of lia_~ur are ton." I would like for this peti tior. to i:le placed on c.'l.e table of the House and referred to t.:.1.e departmenT: it concerns. 4079

:ecel!'.Z.er 5, 1979 Tape No. 1624 ~·­~ .. - 1 Tile hon. tha mer~er for ?ort au Port. :.s_. nOCO:E:ct: Hr. S~eaker, it gi·.res tr.C! great pleasure to support t..us petition from, I believ.a it t1as as the hon •. 1::ec-.ber said, 600 peo~le ;,ho signee- a petition for a ne10 s~•ool in i;ari:lour Breton. ! notea "hen h& sp~~ t.'lat he sai-l ~.o.t t.'le school b.ac! an i~roper gytr., they haC: no l~ra.ri~.s, no proper 'fi~~roca facilities etcetera. ~~=.

S.t<eaker, this grapnicall:; clascrll::es t."le con<ii tion whic:n the .IEC and ~"le ~Care in in this Province at the present ti~e. ?~cently,the goverru:lent, in tr~·ing to alleViate this situation, granted ;112 million to t.."le ::JE.C. ;.;hich "o<~ill l:e ~plit up amongst these various co=ittees to t-~ and alleviate ~~s.

Sut t..'lis $12 ~llicn - r have talke~ to several superintencients of ;c:hool boarC5 now and t."ley ;;ill tell me t.'1a::: tiley ·.;ill not even be able to neet their interest rates t..'lis ::lear a:•d t."lat there ~ill be no ne;; school construction in t."li~ Province t."lis year. ~zC ~hen we see a school in Ha:=our E=eton of ~~s na~ur~ anC in ~lis condition anC.

"e reali;:e t.'"l.at there is just no l:'.oney in t.ne Province for new scnool ccnstruction and .,,e realize t.'lat school boards are u:;,: t.>eir ears in debt and do not know if t.:1ey can r::eet their da:t ~o day co~=itment.s as far as L~~erest is concerned, ~e 3tart ~o wonder, !'·tr. Speaker, if reallz ':...··u~ rur~ areas of t.:."lis P:-ov-ince a::-e gettir.o; t.'"le satre type of education as ..-e fir.d in t:1e urban areas of t.'le Province. ... unC.ers'Ca.'lci, :·Ir..

Speaker, on top of all tl:.is ti.at those areas of el1e Province wnich :::aceived DP~ :;rants which •.rere 90 per cent federal and 10 per cent provincial., ~'lat r.ow the provincial Depart:r.ent of E.:!ucaticn are now ~sking t.'lat those school boards 1 and !:'.any of therr - the ones t.."'lat I am familiar with are tile inter;rated school beards which are in quite a difficult financial positi~n, have r.ow been asked to pay sor-e of the provincial onrtin" of t.'le ::J~E grant. 4080

!:lece:rJ:::er 5, 1979 Tape No. 1624 DW - 2 Mr. Speaker, ~~is again, as ~ell poin~s out the p:oblen:s ;,·hlcn we :ace as far as bringing in the Grace X!I ;;:rogramme is concerned. l::iere is a sc.'lool - t~e :ninister sa:,.·s t..'1at she is going ahead with Grade XII on~ year or t:ne next but !'lere ;,·e see a.."l ex.u.ple of a school which is an inadequate school anC. an inade'icate sc~ool according to the mell'i::ler, supported by the tr.e~rJ:::er there, and I rr.ignt say, ~r. Speaker, that this is not the only school across the Province.

And I unC.erstanci t..1.at the property coll'l!li ttee nas :r.et once now to decide what kine of upgrading we are goiag to h~'l~ to bring in new progra.Jr.~res in our schcol,and I believe it '"'as the day before :~esterday.

I do not kno" if they :-.a\.>e ;ot a report to ~".e rr.ir.iste:r yet but I ·,..auld like to hear the l!'.inister tall us how the ~oney will be ~r. ade available ~o provide the ~roper ecucational facilities in Harbour 3reton and across this Province anc. at the saroe tizr.e ,how .,e are goi::lt; ; . to i:.e able to bring in a new ;?rog:r=.:ne which is going to need even ~ncre e:~Qancied school facil ties. So I certainly nope, :1r. Speaker, t.."l.:lt when I sit down the :-.ir.ister of Education (Ms. Verge) '"ill support tl:.is petition. ~!R. S?f.Ai<l:.R: The hen. t..'1e :Unister of ZC.t.:cation. ~..r.

S;?eake:r, I 'NCuld like to spea:' to the t:etition presented so ably by the han. :r.el!'ber for Fortune - ne:rir.ita.,e (l".r. Stewart) on .behalf of t.'le 602 residents of i1acour Bretcn who signed it seelc.ing a ne•..- high school in that co=unity.

I will ~e vert happy to bring this ~equest to the attention of the Intergrated Education Committee which, as all hoi). members know, unde.r our constitution ilas ~e respor.s.ll:ility of .manac;,ing c;cvern- =ent aut..~orizations for proceeding with s~~ool construction and which I cade a couple of we~s of goverr..ment' s special action ~'lis year to enable ~•e Oenoll'.inational Education Conr.ittee to proceeC. with Sl2 million worth of sci1ool construction is now .being acteci on 'r:.y the ci1urc.'1. cornmi ttees.

There is no · reason to t i1ink e..'lat this is not going to result in the action contel:lplated, na.lll.ely, over tile. next couple of years, t..~e construction of S 12 !ilillion wort.'. of new buildings. The ~uestion of how that new special authorization 4081

Ia.pe :·io. lo24 iJI/ - 3 i3 manageC ~~d which ~ui!Cings will be funce ~ out of that rests entire.ly witl• :..'le ch=cn co;r.rr.ittees and t:•e question of whether narbour Sreton benefits from it rests wit:~ t:;e Ineergra£eu ~ducation Oo~ttee. . 4082

Jececber S, 1979 Ta.c;e :;o. 16.25 ·..-~it.."--1 the Intergrateci Education C~-:.tee 'ft:i-:h. ~ho~,I rll;ht :s.dC.,t...~e ( ··­·-· HoC.derl, I ! w·ill not con;;~er..t on c;,em now. ~ea=, hear. 0-J.y, I no"' call :~oticn 3, ::.ov~d by th~ ~on. :ne~e::: fo:: 3a:r of Isla.-:.cis (:!.::. :. • ;{ocdrow) . T~e hon. we~er for LaPoil~. :·lr. S~eaker, !i=st o! all, let =·e s .ay straight awa;.· that we a.re going tc s~p;;;crt t.h .. is :::esol:.1t.ior:. ;-;e :.=e ~aessage tha:e is conve:,-ed in t..his resolution.

The ~on. gent~e!:lan "he introduced ~~is private wembers' resolution ~erea~-:.ly was not very ~=rsuasive, did not conv~~ce us ~~t ~1e governtaent has done eno:.1gh in the way cf energy conservation. ~ a ~aeter of :act, :~.

Speaker, ·.re 'MOuld nave been very happy if we had heard ~'1e hon. ;en::le!ll=, ·.rho seems to be so concerned a.bcut e::.er;y :os~ , if ~':..e hon. gentle:c.an would have dealt wi~'1 the oatter that ·.ras raised by ~'1e :i e·~· iou.-..dland Light and Power Company some t.i!;te aqo ;;hen t;:.ey said, "It cioes not Qdke any difference how much wood ~ewfoundl~•ders burr., it does not ma.~e any difference how :nucl1 energy how >t~l.I.Ch electri~it~· ~'"ley save, we are going tc sock it to the!:l an"JWay. We will increase the MR. L. BARRY: Who said it? Who said it! The hon. :·!inis"ter of :1ines and Energy (Y.r.

L. aarry) is over t.i.ere wanting to know ..-no saic it. !t was a subject of controversy in t.>is ?rovL~ce on t.~e open l~•e progr3Clmes for about t~~ weeks pl~s t.~e fact t.~at it was in the newspaper, on radio, I 3ad a go at it myself and th= ~on • . ·linister of ~lines and Energy w~o is responsible for t.he high 4083

S:l - : elecc=icity r.:!tes i-"l :his P=c· .. :i.; ~ ::~, the company that: Governm~nt ~i~ r.ot. is gove:~ent bo co scmet~~ng about it. I: is :lF... S. !-EARY: w~ch is owned i:1 the ::tain by =Qinl..a::.c!e.:-3, insJ.;.lted t.~e peor·lc o£ :.:!is cbd.nge over C·::J coal" - :·!R.

S. :::::t-.P..Y: I am belabo'-O:ing net:. th~ :!0~. t:i.inis-:.er • s saJ:e ,...,~ di.d not such a~ nonsensical a::.d foolish s~a~e=e!l~, t.·.:.t :...~e:e 3.rs other ~eo f.:~, t..~erefo:~ 1 I :le.\Ta t:O Spell and ~ewer Conpany said ~~t i~ di~ ~o~ rnake any iiffsr~nce, t~at, neces~a.ry, t...'-1.ey would i::crease t..':e ::ti:d.=tum rates, -:he =.ini=..·..!..""l c:-.a=;es t>: consumers of ele~trici~y in ~~s P=ovince. They we=e ;oing to g~t ~ ~ei= and Ener;--.i (!:-!%' .. BarrJ) a.r.c! the gover::lent did no~ lift a fi:lger to d o 5.:l::·t~.!.r. -; ai:;out it.

They did nothing al:ou~ it .. !:,· old !:riend, Sas Ja:1iason, .::!.id ::;o=!! about it than the gover:'.!!lent <lid, and the :niniste;r did not even k..-.o,.- s:taoe:u.J., Sir, i:. is 3!-:.ar.~.ful. ~ rl.!'ld ! a!.so ·.·.tould :,a-..re liked ~o :-:~:,;.:: that t11e Pr~.ier of t!lis Provi:1ce, · . .;~o used tc ~e :!i:-.is-;~::- "='f :!i:-. ~s 4084

:a~ .·:.:>. lo:5 :-ii.nes a::c! :::.-.erSY (::.:. :=an:y) :U.s a !:ion:!a. :::.a ~n. e?-.e ?r~e:r ~~.!.:-.:<s t • .'~t ~e :us to fol!o "' t~ .U.ll.:.si:ms of g r ~e~ t!1at ·.,e::9 se: ~"! :lis predecessor, "J!:lo as~c! to ·.1.se t:..':e ;ove..rn:::ent :telicop:e rs, .1.:-:d "fO:.J. ~l.:;: a!:ou~ savi..-:g e.:-.er~J. ':~e :-~n . ;erttl~~ sars, "Co~..=r.e.:"l..i ~,e c;o·.rern=te=;. =or :..:O,e.!.= 4085

December 5, 1979 Tape 1626 E'K - 1 Mr. Neary: energy savi.•g programme. And ve had a Pra!lli.er that the han. gentleman supported in this Province who spent SllO,OOO in less than a year, in less than a twelve month period, flying in to Adlaeok in Labrador, and commend the government, he says, for the steps they took to conserve energy. ~ 110 • 000, has the han. gentleman thought about that?

I would have liked to see the hon. gentleman get up and say, yes, co11111end the government for their energy saving progra.mme, but send the bill to Frank Duff Moores for his !lli.suse and abuse of government helicopters when he was Premier of ~~is Province. SOME liON. MEMBERS: AN !iON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: liear , hear ! Do not get personal. Do not get personal. Mr. Speaker, do not get personal, the man should be locked up.

That is how personal I will gee, that is how strong I feel about that Premier who ran the most corrupt adm.inistration in the whole of Canada, in the whole of Nor~'l America, probably the whole of the Free World. A..'l liON • .ME.'!BER: MR. NEARY: about ccnserYing energy. by ministers. AN liON. MEMBE:.R: MR. NE.\RY: SOME HON • MEMBE."<.S : )!R. NEARY: That is not relevant. Yes, it is relevant because we are talking And ~~ese helicopters are stil~ being abused Shame! Yes, still being abused. Shame!

Shame ! we had an example where the ltiniste= of Forestry and Agricultur2 took one to go down to his district to visit his disco back two or three years ago. I did not hear the hon. gentleman get up and say, "Ground the helicopters". one way to conserve energy 1 ;round the helicopters. Ground them. Make the ministers and the government fly commerical airlines. There is an e..'l.ergy saving suggestion for the hen. gentleman. TUrning down the_~ostats is one thing, conserving energy, but that is not the only kind of energy the hon. gentleman is talking about here. We are talking about all. Mr.

Speaker, if I went down to the Public Accounts Committee I would rock her. I have been five years in this · 4C86

Oece~~er 5, 1379 Tape 1626 ?K- 2 :ot.~. ':-lEAP.Y: House, six years in this House, six years - tal.J<: about a voice crying in the wilderness - evertt."ling that ! nave said about ~1e ~~ores Aeministration in six or saven years has come true , - SOME HON. ME~~: ~lR. :~: Hear, hear: - inclwii.ng t.'le trips to Adl.atck t..,a.t ! raised on the floor of t.'1.is House so often and was refused the logs of t.'l.e helicopters and t."le goverrunent aircraft. The people were refused t."le information of wno went aloft, how illal'ly times, and what ~e trips were for. Now, it is all coming out.

I was right: I was right: Come down. Come down. I will come down when Labrador Liner:>oard comes up, I will c;~antee t."le hon. qentleman t."lat. Labrador W.nerboard, •.rhic.."l was - I suppose, it was the biqgest scancal in Ca.nad.ia:·1 hisl;Ory, Lai:lrador Liner.board. But the Auditor General cannot refer to it in his report ~ecause he was not allowed to audit t.'1.e books. MR. R. MOOP.ES: :<~..~. N;;:J>.RY: Go on! .\nd that is why it has not appeared ~efore t."le E'U.Olic Accounts Coll'llllittee in case the non. gentleman is not awa:e. (Inau~lel coming down? lUl.. ~iE~: I will come down.

I told t.'l.e hen. gentleman when Labrador Linerboard comes up, and when the police investigations inU) that scandal are made !t."'lown. Bllt, .,.r, Speaker, the hon. ll'.ember is to be congratulated. And I am amazed, I am amazed, Sir, t."la.t the E'remier has by-passed t."lat hon. gentleman, by-passed him when he was makiag his selection of Cabinet ministers. MA. S?E:)U(ER: (Baird) I would like

U) remind t.'"te hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) of t.'l.e rule of relevancy. :.!..~. ~lEARY: Where am I irrelevant, :tt. Speaker? &• HON. :-!E!·:BER: (Inaudible). :<tR. SPEAKLR: Are you speaking en energy? 4087

Oece!l'.i:ler 5, 1979 Tape lo26 ?K - J Ye.s. I am ccngrat\ll.ating :.~e non. gentleman who has brought in !:his Private !·lel:lbers • Resolution. I t:.•ink tn.e acn. ~~~ember should be in the Cabinet. I think it is a si:J.ame that a man who is so sensitive to the nel!!ds of ti;le ordinar.f people of this Province, one in t.'li.rty sitting on t;le Goverzunent Be.n.e.'tes - h'< liOU. )!E."!BER: That is rign t. MR. ·NEARY: - so sensitive about -:he coat of ele<:trici ty, so sensitive about t.'le enerqy crisis and t.'le energy neecis of this ?rovince, should be l:ly-passed by the Premier of this ?rovince.

Wllat a waste, Mr. Speaker, what a waste of tal.ent. An~ so I congratulate tne l:lon. qentleman for bringing in tlJ,is Resolution. But as hon. ll'.el:lbers k."low, this aesol~,;tion. involves li!Ore than just tuming doWn thermostats, t."lis Resolution iorings into focus;, brings before t.'ti.s HotlSe an opportuni t"f :for mel!ibe,rs . 4088

December 5, 1979 Tape No. 1627 NM - l MR. NEARY: to discuss and debate the enerqy policy of this government which has been shameful since 1972. Their only claim to fame, !1r. Speaker, their only claim to fame is the SllO million fire-cracker explosion that they put off on either side of the Straits of Belle Isle - and they could not even do ~~at, they did not use dynamite, they just used a couple of little puffs of powder. Anybody who knows anything about mining, and ~e· have a delegation from St.

Lawrence in the gallery today -...ho know all about mining 1 if they had seen ~~~ explosion they would have realized that it was just a little puff of powder. That is all it was. It was not dynamite. Just to put on a show - A.'l BON . Mn1BER: That is right. MR. NEARY: - SllO million, and that is one of the reasons why we are paying such high electricity rates in this Province today. The consum~rs are asked to pay for that charade.

The consumers of electricity in this Province are asked to pay the interest and the principle on SllO million that was borrowed by this government from Newfoundland Hydro for political electioneering, for a political campaign prior to the 1975 general.election. And the Premier of this Province, the born again gentleman that we now have seated across from us, tells us we have to forget the past.

He likes to get up ~,d keep reminding us about Churchill Falls and ERCO and all this sort of thing but he does not like to be reminded of what happened when he h~elf was Minister of Energy and squandered ~~at Sl10 million that bas never been accounted for in this House. We have never been able to get an accounting for it? MR. J. CARTER: Does the hen. gentleman realize we have - MR. NEARY: Well, :tr. Speaker, ·maybe they are all gone into the bottom drawer of the filing cabinet, I do not know. I hope . they put something in the cup if they have . But they are listening. Do not worry. They are listening.

And if they are not 4089

December 5, 1979 Tape No. 1627 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: listening I would say that is tough. I could not care less. I am doing my job in the House as it should be done. MR. MORG;...'Il: (inaudible) as it should. MR. NEARY: It is a funny thing, Sir, it is a funny thing about this Province. ! get representation, I get correspondence, phone calls from all over Newfoundland, including Bonavista South, the Here and Now programme that appeared on the CBC about the starving cattle in Bonavista South was a result of my representation. ~.R. ~ORGAN: (Inaudible) the han. gentleman. MR.

NEARY: And the spruce budworm programme that I did had to do wi~~ the hon. gentleman's department. MR. MORG&'Il: A lot of fertilizer. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is so inept and incompetent and inefficient ar.d stunned, that the Premier is hoping ~~at the Public Accounts Committee will get rid of him, and save him the trouble of doing it. !tr. Speaker.

Now, coming back to ~~is resolution, I was down in front of Confederation Building ~en a group of demonstrators came up and I saw the Premier become wild­ eyed, starrj-eyed and shout and roar and bawl and when he was backed up in the corner he said, "The reason for ~~e high electricity rates is because of ~~e E.l~O contract." Because of ERCO, "Because," he said, "of my predecessors." What a cowardly way to try to weazle your way out of something.

And I was standing right beside him and I said, ""What aboU;t the $110 million you wasted when you were a Minister of Mines and Energy on these two explosions on either side of the Straits of Belle Isle?" He said, "Oh, look, there is the hero the.re." And then he sulked like he did this afternoon during the Oral Question period, sulked like a baby and ran into Confederation Building. But these people who were demonstrating the price of energy, ~~e high cost of electricty in this Province made some very valid points, some very valid suggestions and recommendatioPs . 4{)90

December 5, 1979 Tape No. 1627 ~- 3 to t he hon. gentleman , anoi 1 am going co repeat one of them because thez;e was one that was made that I thought was ve..ry worthwhile following up, which is in line, in tune with the hon. gentlellan' s resolution and that was that there be a: CQ111Plete, no strings attacll.ed, no holds barred, public enquiry into Newfound;Land and Labrador Hydro. An¢ the hon. g~tleman has not reacted or responded to that request yet, a very val.id request, It is time it was done. I said to myself, these demonstrators, 1110s't of who111 were females, are right on. r.et us nave an eJ!.quiry.

We have .ne.ver had one. r.et us uncover the extravagance ,'Uld waste and the patronage ~d the political 1091.

December 5, 1979 Tape 1628 EC - l appointments that are going on in ~ewfoundland Hydro t.\latare condoned by the - and some of them made :Cy the present Premier. But we have to forget that, forget the past, . .,a are not allo..,ed to tal.'<. ai:lout that. We can talk ai:lout Joey when it is cor:venient and ..,e can t~ about the r.iberals, but let us not talk ai:lout the seven years of Tory reign in t..'lis Province, ..,e have to forget t..'lat, Getting back to E:!\CO for a mo~rent, Mr. Speaker, ..,hile I t..'link of it.

I read an ad in the pape::: the otner day and I asked a question in this House a couple of days prior to that <ld <lppearinq in the newspaper, t<\king a shot in the dark as far u ERCO is concerned.

We have a governmer.t in this Province and we ilave a Premier, Sir, at the present time who is governing by ultimat= and confrontation, lurcning from crisis to crisis - governing by confrontation and ultimat1.1111S; t..'le first ulti;nat .um, Quebec, tile second ulti:natum, the Government of Canada, t..'1e third ultimatum, ERCO, and so on and so on and so on, ul ti:natum to t..'le fish compani~s , ultimatum to this one. If he cannot get his ?icture in the . newspaper by issuing an ultimatum, he just sulks like a little child. Here we have i.e. front of us Oil Week - t..'lirteen pictures in Oil Wee.'<..

The man must spend half his time, he must allocate half his ti.me to having his picture t<lken for Oil '"eek - t.'lirteen pictures. I ·.,ill lay it on t.'le taele of t.'le ttouse so that hon. members can see what their Premier is doing. COnfrontation after confrontation, ultimatum after ultimatum, and all, by the way, very shrewdly thought out by his little group of not shots that he maets wit.'l once in a while down at that hotel in ~10unt Pearl, the little hot shots, these expensive S40,000 - SSO,OOO-a-year hot shots he surrounds himself ...-ith - all very shr-c!.ly thought out.

The hen. gentleman knows t!lat E.RCO, according to my

interpretation of their ad in the newspaper, voluntarily agreed ~o up t.'leir rates to the cost of power produced at Bay d 'Espoir. And the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. COllins J in the Premier's absence, told us that that was not good enough, t.'1at they would have to contribute to t.'le total syste!ll. 1092 ; I

Cecaml:ler S, l3i9 Tape 1628 EC - 2 MR. NE.A.!U': Well, here is what is goi~g to happen, Mr.

Speaker, I '.Yill make you a prediction right no"·· I ·,;ill ~~e you a forecast right now, ~~at another news confer~~ce will be called togetl·1er rather hurriedly in the next couple of weeks and ·.rord will get ou~: ~'lere is going to be a major announcement made by ~'le Premier - somet.~ing like we lleard yesterday, ~'le ul.timal:um going out to Jim :•!c:Grath ana ~'le Government of Canada - and he will annou."'lce t.'lat they have knuckled E:tc:O under, that ERCO nave agreed, because of the efforts of t.'lis government, to pay ~'le cost - up their rat~s to ~~e cos!: of power generated at Bay d'Espoir.

And he will claim t.'lat a major vic~ry- 'this is great, a ~jor victory!' I am not against it, I am all for it, but what ! am saying, Sir, is t.'le cruel game of poli ~cs t:lis !l!an is playi."lg. f.e will claim that as a victo:cy. 'iou are saying t.'l.ey volunteered it: 'ies, Sir, they have volunteered it according to that ad. MR. 8AR?.Y: And all of a sudden this year they volunteer it for no reason at all? MR. NEARY: And he will clail!l that as a victory and the press will lap it up and they will purp it out 1:0 t.'l.e people of this ?rcvince and llis picture will be a.ll over tile paper.

Well, last night, t:.'l.e hen. gentleman declared war on Ottawa and on Jim l-tcGrath when they were kissing cousins there a couple of weeks ago, and he did =t even make the !'{ationa.l :~ews. That must have been awfully, atWfully disappointing and a bitter pill for the hen. gentleman to swallow. Mlt. BARRY: Why did ERCO volunteer this year •.rhen they did not volunteer for the last fourteen years? SOME HON. ~'1BERS: I Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, I .. ,ill bet a dollar to I. donuts that I will be right, that by-and-by we ere going to have a news conference.

And t.~e next thing, the Premier is going to say, 'Well, we beat them - t:"ley knuckled under,' when in turn, they volu.'lteered to do it. MR. SA.~: Santa Claus is running ERCO. 4093

oec:embe r ~, 19 9 Tape 1628 EC - 3 So, l1r • .Speaker, Ols is our energy policy. T:~is is t:.'le kind of a.n anerg}' polic·t we have in t.'l.is ?rovince. ':'ha~ is t."le lti.;\d o! a policy ·.;e have on jus::. a.bou~ 2veryt.'": L•q t.'1at: is run by this gove=en~. Th.eir ?Olicy is govern by ultimaeum and. con£rom:.aeion, lurc.'l ·,

' r: Tape ~!o. 1629 .:;E-1 from crisis to crisis, g~t your picture in ~~e ,aper. That is the ~ain ~,ing for today. If you ca~not get it in ':.."l.irteen tiJT!es,! 1••oulc say that is sor.-e kine of a recoro in ~e~Tfounc!land, do not bother at all. That is all the hen. aCI!!inist:atio n a:1cl. t~e hen. g~ntlemen are L?tterested in Cut r..evert:O..~less, !·!r. Speak'2r, we intend to support tbe private ~e~b~r's resolutio~ brought in ~y the me~.ter for Ea'l of Islands (~r. :·•ooerO\

r) anc. , .• e cc=enc :1.i!!'. for bringing it in but ~e are not going to support it for the reasons t~~t l±.e ~en. qentle::1a..~ said ~:e shculc' s•~pport it1 we are going tc stl-pport it because it ~as an c~portunity for us to ~ave a few words a=out ene~J that ~e ~ould not ordina:ily be allowed to cebate in t..'"tis House because of the r:.~'"' rules and becac.se of t~e \oiay ~~a~ t~e ~vernment !'iouse i.eaeer, 1-'illiar. !':homeini ~ars~all, has r:'.ar1aged to !OUt a ~UZ%le on me~bers of ~~is Fouse, cut~inq c~~n t~e ~- O~~~ o! ~ime ~"l.ey are allowec' to speak, shifting every~~ing off the floor of ~,e Rouse, ~,at ~e ca~not get an opport~~ity to ~is~~ss ener~J, unerplo~ent, cost of li ".ri~q o: an:rthing ~ lse.

Sc f~r that :-easor.. ~Ne corrr.te!"'.C ~.e hen. qentlem~ for bringi~g ~~is resolution into the F.ouse, at least it gives us an cpportur.ity to get a few t~ir.qs'off our chests.

If we accomplish no~~ing,and ! ~o not ~~i~~ we will, I co not thir~ t~e ar.s·.;er to cur ene::-gy prcble~~:s, the high cost of elect:icity ar.C: so forth is turning c~~ ~,ermostats, as important as t~at is .Because !!e•,.,four..dlanc Lig~ t anc Power, as I have said in ~'".e ::eginning , have alreacy let ~,e word out to the people of tr~s ?rovL~ce that you ~~t ~ack on your electricity, you put in wood anc oil or coal and oil or a comhina~ion of all e~o or three a~C. we are going to get our pound of flesh anyway because we will up ~~e ~inimum charge to cons~ers in ~~is Provirn:e. SOME EON . Mn$EP.L ~!R.

SPE .:\ ~P: (!:utt) HP .• !'li.T'!'!"RSON: ·, F.ear, hear! Hon. Minister of ~ir-. e;, and Energy. Here we go. Eea.r, hear! 4G95

• Deeer.=er 5 ,1979 l".R.!!AP.P.Y: =ch. ~P.. B!l.F1'Y : MP .• BARP.Y: Tape No. 1629 AF.-2 Hr Speaker, a !!!an can only take so Co you want me to stay? Yes. Eave eJ.e cc•~rte sy to stay. Oh, oh! I suggest you co, yes. You are going to talk about me I su~ose. I am going to talk about you. I a..!n going to taL':. about you,which tr'.eans that I am not going to say verJ ~~~.but I am going to talk ar.out you. Xr.

Speaker, several years ago I co~ent~d- I have to repeat this, if ~~ere was any way o! harnessL~g the hen. :~tember' s upper lip .,,e would not ~ave to worry about Labrador power or - (Inaudible) harness your SBO an hour (ir.~ucible) _!'~.Bl'oR:t'.:': - or ~eat or solar aner<;'J. Wi t.'l ':;,.e ene~f of t.~at t:'~uth, Mr. S~eaker, we could drive every generator ~'lat is now in ~!lis Province. A:1.d you are sitting here all day, :-!r. Speaker, anc you are s~jected to t.'lat, al=ost deadline, rig~t across ~'le P.o•JSe.

It is cruel and unusual pu!'l.is!-.!i'.ent,particula:ly wher. t..'le hen. ml!litber goes on about items such as E:i:l.CO. Now, !~r. Speaker, I suppose ever]bocy in this P.ouse, everyboey in·t.~e Province is aware of ~~e fact t.'lat the hon. member was in gcvernr.ent - P.ow many years ~as the hen. member t.~ere after the EFCO contract? MR.BAF.P.Y: AN E~T .ME~ER: ~!P .• BA!t.~Y : (Inaudi:tlel After the nco contract?

Yes. !!ow l'lany years was t.".e hen .meml:er in ~~e House after ~'le ~RCO contract was entered into and ~w mu~'l is en record here in Hansa::, ~~- Speaker, how mu~'l is on record co~~laining about ~'le EP.CO contract ~'hile the hon. :nell'.ber sat U!l.c!er the t!ull"b of certain past Premiers. . 4096

Deee.:-~er :,1979 Tap~ ~to . 1629 :..F.-3 Ca!:inet sec.:-eC"f, Cabinet sclida.:-ity. That is ris~ . You we::e not allowed to epen you;- mouth. You could not talk al:out E!'I.CO. ~ou could not taLl( about E'?.CO. !~P...MOPGA.'i: F.e a.r, !'lea:-! :"ol.C. to sit C.own ar.d shut up he was. .?Lnd only !:leca~.:Se the:e was a c!':ar.lje of :;:ove!l".ren: -..e :.,roul c\ still no-t ~e talJ :itlg .;.~out E?.~. ... 1._. ss:ea.!cer, a ne•" :ay ".as dawned fortuna:aly and we ca.'l tal!< about ::P.CO a; .d not onl:,r are we Ull!d.r.g a!::out !:: .. .<~co, •,;e are c'.oing somet:!"!ing a!:o•.1t E?.(":'.

The non. tr.en±le:: says t.'-!at we can ~X?ec~ E?C ~ to CO!r.e in out e: t."!e blue 1 t.'ti.s vear, COl'!,. in anc!. voluntee.:- to i:'\c:~ase :.r.-ei: pO"-'er ::-a:es. Just: like t.'1at:. !!ang! :·!hat has happ enec!? Rave t:hey l::ee:t :tit !;.y a '!:lolt f::o111 t~e blue to change t.".ei: busin ess hea~s !n":.o one of 4097

December 5, 1979 Tape No. 1630 NM - l MR. BARRY: melting charityi' They are going to come over - they feel guilty about the r~tes that they are paying in ~ewfoundland, and all of a sudden because Christmas 1979 is coming on they are going to come over and give us a ~~ristmas present. That is ~hat is happening? Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is expecting the people of this Province to accept that. The people of this Province know, ~~- Speaker, that we have put certain positions to ERCO, to Albright and Wilson, to the shareholders of Albright and Wilson - MR. m:_v.y: MR. SPEAKER (Butt): MR.

NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order. ~~- Speaker, as ususal the hen. gentleman is not very well informed. ! have here in front of me, Sir, a communiqu~ issued by ERCO to its employees. MR. MORGAN: 1-ihat is your point of order? AN 3:0N. MElo\BER: Sit down. MR.. NE.=<RY: - to its employees at Long Harbour ~hich I am prepared to table, Sir, and here is what it says. "ERCO has never refused to discuss the power contract wi~~ the Province of Newfoundland despite our history of heavy losses.

However, we have insisted on a number of poin~s, the most important of ~hich is that any proposed changes must relate to Bay d'Espoir costs." Now, Mr. Speaker. that is a complete reversal of what the hon. gentleman is saying. The hen. gentleman is not deliberately misleading the House but he is misleading the House and I would like to lay this communique,that was given to me by an employee of ERCo,on the table of ~~e House. So I hope - AN HON. liD.'tBER: MR. SPEAKER .(Butt l : A.." HON. MEMBE.."<: Sit down boy. Order, please: Why do you not table yourself? 4098

December 5, 1979 Tape No. 1630 NM - 2 M.~. NEARY: I would like to lay it on the table, Sir, and ask t!1e han. gentleman to govern - MR. SPE:Al<ER (B~:tt) : Order, please: MR. NEARY: - to govern hilnself accordingly. MR. SPEAKER: On the point - of order. MR. BARRY: I am glad the han. member passed information but obviously there is no point of order there, Mr. Speaker. on the m<. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. It is merely a difference of opinion between two han. members. MR. BARRY: Not even a difference of opinion, Mr. Speaker, because I will accept that that is what ERCO is saying.

I will accept that they may be putting ~~t forth as a position, as a negotating position because we are putting it to them that we are not satisfied with the price that they have ~een paying, the price that they paid while the han. member opposite was in governme~t, and that was never questioned at that time, and a price that we have been t-~ing to change for a number of years, and a price ~~at we are going to change. The time has come, ~~at price will ~e changed. !1R. MORGA..'l: E:ear, hear! !<!R. BARRY: Now, ERCO can make all the counter proposals they want.

Is the hon. member submitting - suggesting ~~at that is the acceptable position for this government, for this Province? MR. t."EARY: Would you mind telling me what kind of a cruel game of politics the Premier is playing? MR. BARRY: It seems like the hon. member is prepared to accept the first position put by ~~0 as being acceptable. MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: more precise in his comments. MR. NEARY_:. with 'Brian'. M.~. BARRY: No. No. Well, the han. member should be a little I am not playing political games Mr. Speaker, I would also like tJ 4099

Oecembe~ ~, 1979 Tape No. 16.30 NM - 3 MR. BARRY: refer to the s ·c.a::.emene., the reference the hon. member :nade to e.;e comment. by e;ew:!ound1and Light and Power, atc.ributed to Newfound1a~d ~-ghe. and Fewer, and I~ glad he did, because i::. s on.e that. :tas received a lot: of comment in this , . .. Province and I 'JOuld like to put this P.ouse on notice, and I would like to put the people of this Province on not:ice that it is this gove:nme ~t's policy that our ·,

December 5, 1979 Tape 1631 PK- l Mr. Barry: citizens will save money by conservation. And if Newfoundland Light and Power attempts to change its rates so as to negate ~~e effect of conservation, i! necessary, we will bring in the appropriate legislation to counteract any such move. MR. NEARY: Now you are talking. MR. BARRY: Now that is the position of this government, Mr. Speaker • SOME HON. MD!BERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: And it is the position that I have made severu times, and I think this is the first time in this House, several times before the hon. member ever raised the point.

And I would like to be more specific, Mr. Speaker, and say that I have ,as of several '"'eeks ago, requested officials of the Department of Mines and Eners:v in conjunction with employees of Newfoundland Hydro.and reques~ ~~e assistance of Newfoundland Light and Power, request~d an)' info.rmation they can supply to prepare information on what is necessary in the way of changes to our rate structure to ensure that it is obvious and clear that any conservation measures entered into by the people of this Province will result L~ savings to them.

Now,I have, just to show hen. members that it is not a simple matter to arrive at, what would appear to be a verJ reasonable position, this matter of marginal costing, bringing in - I am going to have another swipe at you in a moment, but I will alert you if you want to leave for a while. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. BARRY: By leave! By leave! I will alert the hon. member when I am a.bout to take another swipe at him. ~.

Speaker, it !;as been suggested in a number of quarters and, in fact, it has been looked at in many parts of North America, particularly since 1973 in the energy crisis, this question of how can we structure our rates so that the more people use the more ~~ey pay, and particularly when this is at peak periods1 The member forSt, John's North (Mr. Carter) I know, this is a very popular subject matter Nith him and he has raised the point with me, brought it 4101.

December 5, 1979 Tape 1531 PK - 2 Mr. Barry: to my at~en~ion a n~~er of times that we have to get a better rate st-~cture so that we can recognize when people conserve and penalize when people waste ~~ergy,particularly at certain times in t.'le day when it acids to the peak demand of the Province, which means, Mr. Speaker, as the peak goes Ui? t.'lere h4s to oe additional generating capacity installed, there has to be more money spent on generating facilities. If we can keep our peak down, Mr. Speaker, ther. we have a certain amount of flexibility.

People point to, say, buildings leaving their lights on overnight. Well, I agree it is a bad practice, but it is more attitudinal than ic is important L"l. the sense of savinq energy dollars to the Province. Because lights left on bet•N'een midnight and six o'clock in the morning are not adding to the peak demand of the ProvL"l.ce. It is using energy,that would probably be water t:."lat, L"l some cases might be spilling over a dam if t.'le electricity is not being used.

And, in fact, L"'l one sense it means more money to the utility if the energy in the off-peak period is being consumec is being paid for and there is more money coming into the ueility. au e, Mr. Speaker, on balance I believe that because of the attitude ehat will carry over into the peak period that is a wasteful attitude. So our approach would be to recommend that people turn off lights at all times when they are not using them.

But the point I am trying to make is that it is really the peak periods, around supper hour in the evenings, or sometimes early in the morning when people awake and turn on their electric stoves and start to cook their breakfast, but particularly around supper hour is the most important time for everybody to be aware of the necessity to turn off any applicances that are not necPssarv for the particular operation you are enqaged in at that time. 4102

!:'ecen-!::er 6,1979 Tape No. 16 32 A.H-1 It is the one p~ak a y~ar ~~at eve~thinq is geared at in terrs of installing generating capacity. You have to try and ~st~ate what is the r..aximum c!erna.'ld t.':at is going to occur. J..t some point in tte year, one til!!e c'!uring the year the cei".and is going to go up to this point, this m~ill'.1:!\ peak, and that is usually in the Winter, usually around Christmas time - MR.J'A!·!!!:SCN: In our climate. _1-'!? .• !:!

APFY : In our c~at~. ;; t~e ~on. ~er~er rightly points out, if we were in Sout."tern climes our peak 'N'OUld come in t.'l.e SUI!li!'er time ~1hen we hac all our ctir conditioning en 1 but '"e do not !lave that ~robl~m. In fact,ther~ are adv~tages t.':at acc:ue from thi.:; ci:ference in p~aks. It ~eans that we can sell - Canada, I s~~a.'< of :-_o.J- can sell e~e~: to the ~nited States in the SummertiJ!!~ when they need it most ~~the Southern states, if you have a proper grid system s~t up ,and ~e~· can sell enerqy to us in t.'le Winterti!:'e •.then it is not tl1eir peak _;leriod.

So t.~ere can t-e exc.'1.anges workec! out and neit.';.er one of us t.';.en ~as to put in as ~ch generating capacity as we would ot.':erN"i.:;e neec. It is an example of how co-operation can ~!or}: to everycocy's tenefit. Unfortunately at the present time ~e do not get a great benefit en a ~Tort."t/Sout.'l. basis because t.':e Southern US states are basically sendin" t."teir energy up to t.':e ~:crt.':ern l'S states. It never gets across the canadian border.

Sut that is an example of where ~ifferences in latituce can result in t.':e necessity for co-operation and exchange betN"een co•mtries, bet'>~een provinces, be~1een states and so on. I had t.'l.e opportunity to do a bit of work and to submit a paper to the i~ter-crovincial pr~~ers on constitutional aspects of inter-provincia! energy exc~ar.ge a number of years ago 1and one of these cays I hope to ~et t~at ~,inq published ar.d I will send a copy across to the Leacer of t.~e Opposition .at t.'1at time. No bill,please. MR. BAP.P.Y: No,t.'lis will be a compli~entary copy.

There "''ill be no !::ill ~oing ~rit.'1 t.loje article. But it is an example, - 4i03

!:lecem..~er 6,1979 Tape •ro. 1632 I ~ope ~~at when ! write it is not ~uit~ as :iull as t.'lat. 0~, it is ~~11. !t is dull. I have to confess I find it cull rr.yself when I read it. !!!".. J.ll.l"'.!FSON: (Inaudible) !'P.f'.!I.P.PY: •:"'rf, very educational !:ut cull. I have to agree. aut it is an example, ~~- Spea~er, of hew as an acaeemic you can utilize your work two or ~. ree times. First you do the work for a client and you bill it out,and tl:'.en ""hile you are doi~g t.'le work fer the client you are also tea~'lina a class anc! you are usinq the l!'.aterial in t.'te class !~U are teacl:ir.g ar.d ult~at:el? you put t.~e material into a~

article a~c you outlist it. So tte cycle keeps going. You get paid ~~ree ~es ever for it anc t.~at is t.'l.e onl•r ~·ay our acac!et:d.cs can sur.;i•:e ~~ese ca:.ts. ~~t they surviw! <:-Uit"! well if the:r get sO!!".et:ing like t.'lat going. findinq. !".r. S;.ea":er, so on t.;,..e point: t!"!at t.'le hen. mer.-.ber for La Poile (~ .!ieary) raised •..ri t.h r~s~ect to· conse~.raticn a.nc! ''!it..,_ res;:~ct to any state!'"ents t.'1a~,·:~l~ 1 if you save ~or.ey !:y cut'ti:t<; C~.:~.: ' .. ;e ~:.-e ~1o. I am net goi~c; to ta.'-:.e a s'ld~e at you yet.

You car. ;;c :=ac):. '!"::?': is not c;oi:--:- to ~appen 1 ~~r. s;::eaker, because it is tt.is c;cve~tre!"!.t's policy to ensc..re that cor.servation •,;ill result in savir.qs for t..'"'.e consurner. NO\·r t,!l.at is t.~e bottom line of t..~is goverr ... ~.er:~ • s :o!ic.r an~ wr.ate•rer legislation we have to iJr,pler..ent ::o !:ring ~'"'.at i~to e Efe~ ··<lill :!:::e done. ~e hon. the Leacer of tte Cprosition. ~. JlU-'.IESON: :-!r.

Speaker, I am curiocs to kno'" b that context whether t.'·'-~ same will apply ,if his t~eoretical extensior.s, t.'lat I ~ sure he has written ~o·ith great skill, whetr:er t!"l.ey she~-; if at some poL'!t we are go:!.ng to ~rincl up . .,.it~ agail'-"' a surplus of '· power , let us say coming f::-oT La.braeor 1 and t.'len ·~·oul::! ,.;e ::..a•.re tc in 4104

':'a'le :1o. 1532 '11'1. Jh"!;:"SC~I: face cha.r.c;~ SCC!e of t.'lese :\4.!: i es a.r.d in~eed sugg~s~ :o people t.'1at t.~ey go back to ut ~ lizing ~ore electricity? ':'hat ~appenec! cnce =efcr~. !'!P.. S?~.l\~?.: (?u~tl '!'he ~ on. :ti:1i s eer o! ~i::es A.'l c! E::er<;f • . · U05

Dec~er 5, 1979 .S:l - 1 \;f econo~i=s ~ei::g ~::at it is,C;.!-: ~ersonally I W.o r:.ot thin.~ it ·Nill ::.a.pEe...'l a.:.C. I '.o:i.:..l, :.r. any f.Olicies I re~enci, ~-y to avoid it b~caase it is not 3 he~lthy ~tti~ude~ ~:..t. ~•ha t t...'":.e :.ead-ar of ~1.e .Jp~osi tion (:!.r.

D. .Ja:c.icson) i.s re.ferri~; to is t:.:-.at i£ you :1ave a sj•stem .!..•stalled t~t:. ::ac fl:"O<i;Jce a. =~=t.ain amou..."'lt of e.:.:u;r;y ,and if at any ;a:tic'.llar pe:icC. :·c~ ~..1...; not need. ell that, i'Oi.l onlJ neeC. 60 ,?er cent:. of it or 7'J "er cent, 'jC::. nave,s~y,JO or 40 percect sar}lus, ~ell, i= JOU do no~ s~ll it it:. is ~a~er over ~~e jam. 1·!..~. J. .J.~~·!IES:J~.;: Ont:~rio :Oyd.::-o is still :;r~c-. otir-.;. ~!.Pt. ~. 2;2-.:.Y: Onb..rio E.y:::ro, bcc-=.~3~ of t~ei.= nu~lea.r prog:axnme an\:!

So on, t1ave .a ce=~~ ;;.~il-:-i;:. caf.3.=!.~y ar.ci re.a:.ly if you can enccurage off-_tieak purci:ases, if you can bring in a systa't'. where you encoura;~ ~eople to tave chei= ho~ ~a~sr neacers t~~~ed on at off-t;:eak periods, the:1. it =.a:t 1:.-a a toli=1 t.=,at yc'.l co~.;lc! safaly ~ri~~ in. ~-~d t~i~ is, in fact, ~n ~x~~:e of tte aort of thing we are lookins- a~ 3.:ld. • .. .-e ::.ci=e to r.u..ve d. =o..;.~le of pilot projec:s and I ~ill be making =~~~er ~cat~~e~ts ~n ~~is Ce!ore rossi!;le t·~ ~'1av~ b.ot w~~cz hea:ers se': up .:=on":.rollec! ~Y t..~e ~tilic~· so t...~at. t..~e ..l~ilit~,. col!.ld. t:Jrn off t,.=,e .1ot water ~ l.eat~= of w:.:.o~sa::ci.s of citiz::ens, i! !:hey agree ~o let l:.n.is !:.app:ar., at ,?ea..~ ~e.rioC.s !N~;..en ~"-ley 'Nante~ 1:0 c--: dottn damand. ~:";e:l c.he supply ·..;as 1Jett.i:1g eight t:l.ey co'.lld just pull t.1.e ,pl:J.g .L4d all t.'i.e ~ot "Na~er heater~ "n'OU..~.~ ,'!R.

D. JA!II::::So:;: :1y wife does t::'1at to z:te e•1e~1 day by getting a bath first. ~!R. !... BA?.?..Y: If conswners were pre~-· "'"u 1.u ::;o along with ~~at,ane if t~t:. resul~ed in a saving tc ~~e~ in ccll~r terms 1 il!3ybe t..."..a.t tNOulci encourase t!lec to ·;o alor:g wit.~ it.

It i..i a. litt..!.e bit of an invasion of p=iva.c:.~ 1 I tl:ink 1 i:l one .;ense; :z,·ou know, ~~er~ is a ce~t3in relucta~ce or. peogle to have somebody tell you 11hen you can have a ta ~'l or when you can 'N'ash be kids or ~"te C.oq or the di.3hes or ¥0 '.JI car or whateve.::-, ~ut, when it: comes rig:.t down to it, ii ~'lat saves you money ~'len the consumer ~7 be ~repared 4:106

Dec:e£nber 1979 S::l - 2 to have tha: tY?e of an arran~~en~ a..'ltared i:1to. ~row, ·..;e are going to be ex.,eri.."!!enting wit!l t.us sor:: of thing; we will be bringing in ~ore details of t.~is as tir.e goes on.

That is one example of where you could. t.'l.er., encourage the use of hot water heaters in off-pe~~ periods but ha~e ~~eo shut o~~ l.~s ir.stalled ge:1erating ca;::a::;i~~·. little t.~:. l~a.3 bee:l ~ne ir. any jurisd.ic~io:l ~ecause of ~\e becausa of wha~ ~e is doi~g,ar.~ ~~erefore shc~ld be ;er~lized in into ~1.is area anci. woe h~;e :o aav~ !i.l:tb.er inforr,atio~ fer ~~a lone; I have gone or. or hew :auc:1. time I have left. ;~ iiON. :·~-!3~3..: T"..ro cin:.1tes left.. 'l'"..;c !Unutes left. ~!U.s is only rny first :.;:oil.t of five points,so I guess I am going to miss a couple of poin:.s, ~·!r.

Spea.kar :·"'· ::>. .;;..:.cr:::so:r: t;e are b::oken-he.arte..:4. .rust to cention some of the steps ~,at :.ave alreaQy teen taken by this government, ~!r. Speaker, in t:.erms of energy c:o!lSer.·at;;.on, and !:ly previous l?C acirn.inistrations 1 ::.."le sales ~~~ on ~owe insulation Qaterials and wood burning stoves ~as

l).:cel!'.ber 5, 1979 5;) - 3 4108

~cer.~er 3, 1979 '!ape :~o. lG 3~ - 1 ccnsu:::.:r. ;;aw ;;:rcgru.oes i1ave been e.c.;;ereC. ir.t.o 1 federal/J:.rcvl.ncial ?rogra1:1:·ues s~ as the ~ ... IP p::-og:-a:::me, the C.:anaciiar.. C..Ome I::.sula~ion ?=gramme, i:;.;ersave, the resiuential enerr;n• service .~:·rcgra.Jr51'. e <l.nd so on.

Tnere has been a OREE agreerr~t,and ti1is Province is t~e fir~t. one to ante.:: into tnls enargy conservation, renewable energf 0~ agree!!Oent. ···i th Sll. 5 c;illion available zcr expen~ t.ures en !."esearch into ·,.;ays of cringing on renewable energy forms. hnC. t;1e Oepart ir.e::t: of ~lines a...•d f:ne:rg-,t is now entertaining proposals 1 and t.nere will i::.e z:.cre pujjlicit.y on ':..'lis ::~<~tter ovar t.he next several ~cnths, but it alrea<iy has a large nur.ber of unsolicited pro,i?osals J:;ut it ..,ill te activel: t' sol.i.ci~g proposals as well . fer projects ti:at. ;;eo;?le ••ould. l.i.<e to see carrieci out, eitne.:: t..'lernselves or govern~tent, to conserve ener:;;;;: or to develop renewable energy resources. some of Ule proposals have been bringing ~n a prograrrme of ~~er=o­ g::-aphic surveying of nei;:I.Lournooci.;; ;;here :;ou car. fly ave::- and ta" e infrared ;;:hotogra?hs and you can act::.a.lly see t;;;e leaks of he<!.t comins out the sides of buildings, out of wL•<iows, out of doors, cut. of roofs anC. so on. ~t tr.ust be sotre ,i?icture 1oihen t..•ey ;o ever nere.

AP... :.. • .SARRY: It is one big red sky ~hen ~~ey pass ~he Confe~eration ::>uildi4g if the windows are Cfen. .to.r.d t::ey can point to your house an.:. they can say;r.ook_,you shoul.d have ;;torm ;;indc.,.·s, i·ou sno~d nave a storm door, you should have insulation in your roof!and so on. 'Lock, at all of the energ-.{ and the eollars t."lat you are losing by not i1aving this done. ' Tae CliiP ;.:rcc;ra.n;me ~as not ;;orked as ~;ell as it shoulci; the ll'.ont-• .i.s tl•.ore and going uns;;:er.t,really. 1·:<! ha·.re recol:l­ ~endacl that it :t..e passed. over to t.'le provinces fer adl:cinist.ratior. a...•d ti1is seetr.s to be the a;;>proach l:!le E"e~eral Gove:rr.zr,ent ~o~ill t:.ake an<i we a..-.tici;;>ate t:.1at t.nere will be i:nprove~:. ents in t.b.is prograr.!l' .e as tir.-.e goes on. ':here is still a lot to ~e cic.ne •v.·e recoi:".mended t..'lat st:orr. doors and 1oiindows an~ so on be brought into tile prcgr~e so t..'lat people can cbt.ain ;rants for this sort of t:hing as well. 41.09

Cece~zer 5, 1979 Tape iio. 16 3.; Order, ;;:lease! The hQn. ~inister's tir..e aas rur, cut ~•less he is given leave. ;~ •• L. aARRY: Bi' leave?'!-wo minutes, b::,· leave, just to conclude? SOHE li~l. lo!El-IBE~: Sy leave. MR. S. NEARY: You still nave not taken that s~.-:;.~e -r;;-:.. :·L"-. L. 3.:\P.ll: ••o, I will forego tile swipe at ~~e hon. me~ber for La?oile ~~s ti~e. !~. S?eake.r.:, as you know,we .1ave hau to cievelo;:: ot.1.er hydro sites on t.'"le Island, E.inds Lake ~C. t.'le t;pper ::.al;::~cn rig~t now Leing ur..:ier«a:I. 'lhe :Cottom line, however, Er.

S!!eaker, is t."lat conservation, -..-;1.ile it ·.o~ill hel..,. us put off tne inevi tacle day -..·hen we have to install our nex~ generating ea;;:acit¥, conservation in itself is not enough,unfortunately.: It can helJ:>, it can !.e a i:lig ned.;;: a."ld ;,;e urge t.'le cicizens of ti".is Province to conserve, bu'!: ulti=latel:· t:1e sal­ vation of t.~is ProvL,ce,as far as energy is concerned,~ill :Oe to see a trar.smission line between ~aoradcr and tile Island ~art of tius - ~rovince 1 so that t.·e can have our electricity coming from hyciro rather ::.:1an !:::oil'. s:etrolewn and so that ·.;e can then nave some control ove: p:icing.

Right now ;,on. mem.Cers can say · .. e saoulc! keep t!le cost cf elect:::icit::r ci.c,..n. If we C.o that, we are taking tr.oney out c! one fOcket, out of general rever.ue to ;;:ut into another. '!'he bottom line is that as long as we are aepenC.ent upon \JPEC oil me:r will for::e our electricity prices ,.;p. ":he ;.;ay that ·..-e can c;et stal:.le cost power and ~nergy for this Province is to ha·.re t.'lat ::..ased upon a resource within our Province t.'lat is under our control, that is not subject to cost escalation an~ that, Mr. Speaker, is to ~ave our elect:icity coming from ..,·ater.

And t.'lat is our ciljeccive, to ;,ave t:::e ...-ater, the nydro capacity of L~rador developed to serve the peo!'le of this ~rovince. ~hank you. SO~ bON. ~ll:::·l5EPS: near, hear! The hon. rr.en-..Oer for ':e:ra ~~ova. 41.1.0

::ece;;J;er 5, 1979 :!-iR. ":. Lt:Sii: ~ores to t.~is resolution, TD.pe :;o. 16 J4 m; - J ~~. Speaker, I j~st ~ant to say a few I t.'link the :1on. me::-zer for La?oile (1U:. Near;) in spe.aJ.:i."lg earlier indicated t."'.at certainly ·,;e ·•oulC:. ;.e supportir.c; this 4:1.1:1.

Cecemeer 5, 1979 Tape 1635 EC - l MR. LuSii: resolu~ion. But, :1r.

Speaker, it is rather s<;range t.1.e i<;inds of resolutions t.'lat are sort of drafted and presented before this <louse cy hon. mem"cers from t.1.e ot.•er side. ;;:~~Y seem to be weak resolutions and mealy-mollthed resolutions. '-"'le intent of the resolution is certainly good and we go along with the spirit of the resolution because it gives us the chance to talk about the most ~rtant item t.1.at is facing ~ewfoundlanders and canaCians today, that of energy. '!be two main parts to t.'l.e resolution, of course, llave to do wit.'1. ccnserva'd.on and with stable and lew-cost sources of enerq'.f, but there is nothing in t.1.is resolution that is going to achieve ei t.1.er.

I expect maybe tl1at t.'".e non. me!l'.ber pro.bably when ~e was drafting the resolution tri;~ ::c g-et ideas from mecbers of t.1.e House as to what ideas we could come up with t.1.at would cer1:ainly bring around conservation t.1.at would result in st.al:lle and low-cost sources of energy <:o the people of t.us i'rovince. aut there is not.'ling at all within the rescl11~ion to sugges1: that t.'l.is is going to be done. tlhat we have is two parts t:.o t.'le resolution, one, 'Be it resolved t.1.at the Govenur.ent of Canada and of the Province be commended for their efforts taken in t.'l.e area of energy conservation, particularly L'l t.'le recent signing of the D~E subsidiary agreement on renewallle energy so11rces.' And I think that is what t.'le hen. the Minister of :tines a.-1.d Energy (Mr.

Barry) was getting at, that part of the resolution, when time ran out. Certainly, we agree wit:..'l t:..'lat part of t.i-J.e resolution, because if this agreement was not signed by the previous federal L.U>eral Government, I am s=e t:..'lat all of the plans were drawn UP in consultation with the provincial government - al.l that was needed was a signat11re. So this, certainly we ~o~ould find no effort in suppor:ting. :aut again, to point out t:..'".e ridiculousness of the resolution 1 now how · de you go about commending?

What are we looking for, to have back slaps and people to be congratulated? 3ow de you commend bct.'l levels of government? What are we going to de - wire t.i.em a telegram? What are we going to do - write them a letter? Are we going to send somebody up there? Are we going to drink a toast? What are we going to do to commend both levels of goverqment7 Again, it points out the nonsense of t.'".e k.i.nC.S 41.12

December 5, 1979 Tape 1638 E:C - 2 MR. !.CSH: of resolutions t::;a~ we have. And t..'ls second part talks about, 'Be it resolved that bot..'l ;ovenunents be encouraged'. t>ow, Mr. Speak.ar, how are we going to encourage? ·Again, a resolutio!l should sute a specific action. We should state tha 'What' and the 'liow' of the resolution, what ·.re want done and how it is going to be done. But again, :nay.be t.i1e llcn. !l!l!lllbe:: was looking for suggestions from the House, leaking for suggestions from hen. members as tQ how we should encourage bot:l levels of qovarn:~ent. If that is so, it is fine.

But a reso:ution should state in positive terms, in precise te=, in specific te:::ns, what line of action we expect. And words like 'coJ:I!!IE!nd' and words like 'encourage' and words lL~e 'suggest' de net de that sort of t..'ling. If we were to lock at some resolutions here, we could see some good resolutions that indicate positive, precise and specific action.

XI • .Speake::, enough said about t..'le wording of the resolution and t..'".e semantics of t..'l.e resolu~ion, There is :10 q".lestion t..'lat the hen. meober certainly !'lad t..'le conce:n of Hewfouncila."lciers in mind when he drafted the resolution, in te:::ns of talking about conserving energy anci with the hope t..'lat we can keep t..'le cost to cons1.11 ers down. Tllat is what is important. .~ow, t..'len, :1r. Speaker, how can we do t..'lat? How can we achieve that?

Because, as I said before, t.'lis is t.'le single largest problem facing people in this Province today, and people right throughout Canada, the cost of ~ne::gy. There are people in this Province who do not know which way to turn, :-~r. Speaker. l'hey do not k."'Iw how they are qoinq to be able to cope wit..'l the high cost of energy, wit..'l the continual escalation in the cost of energy. There are cases where the cost of energy is almost costing people as much as t.'leir groceries, particularly those people who have alec=ic heat. These people are facing a tremendous problem.

If there is something we can do in this hen. aouse, certainly, to ~ze 41.13

December 5, 1979 Tape No. 1636 NM- l !o'.R. LUSH: that expense, to help bring down that expense somewhat, then certainly we would have achieved something great for the people who sent us here, for the people who elected us to work on their behalf. Mr. Speaker, as I have said, there is nothi.."1g in the !!lOtion and the resolution to indicate any action at all, and the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy(Mr.

Barry) when he spoke certainly got on to two large items and one had to do with the first part of the resolution., namely the development of the hydro potential that we have in ~~is Province, and certainly this is a must.

We must do this, because as long as we have got to rely on oil as a source of fuel or heating homes or whatever, then we can only expect the cost of energy to escalate; and as long as we have to do that,~~en certainly we have got to somehow encourage our people, somehow bring out some kind of educational programme ~~at will certainly instill in ~~e ninds of our people the extreme necessity for conservation. ~nd this part of the resolution is the most commendaDle part of the resolution, namely t.l).e ORE:!:: agreement to develop what hydro potential we have, because this must be done.

We must develop every last resource of hydro potential in this Province if we are going to do anything at all with minimizing the cost .to our people. This must be done. And I would like for somebody on the government side, when t.~ey are speaking, to indicate the resources t.~at we have and the priority - which rivers are going to be developed over ~~e next ten years? What are the sources of hydro power that we are going to see in this Province that are going to be developed in ~~e next few years, along with ongoing d~velopments now?

Because that is the onl~ hope, that is our only salvation, if indeed there is any salvatior at all, if indeed there is any escape from the tremendous high cost bf energy to our people. So that certainly is the only solution, and the quicker we can eliminate the need for oil as a source of 4:11.4

December 5, 1979 Tape No. 1636 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: elec~icity in this Province, as a source of fuel and heat, t.'le quicker we can do that then the better for the people of this Province. And ~'lis must be a priority, and 1 as I have said before, I would certainly hope that the government will let us 4.) know in the near future what just precisely, ·~at their plans ar~long tnese lines over the next few years. The second part of the resolution, Mr.

Speaker, the part having to do precisely with the conservation that the goverllll\ent be encouraged, and cert.~inly I would like to encourage them in every way possible, but what are the ideas? What can we do? What is this resolution suggesting? Is it suggesting an educational programme be brought into our schools,maybe, where we can certain!~,.- instill into the minds of our young people the tremendous crisis in this Province and in :anada, and teach them some of the conservation ::-~ ""'"'c:;, ;;o:;;.a oZ i:..le conservation techniques 1 because I believe this is where it has got to start.

And I just wonder today 1 for example 1 how much of this sort of t.'ling is being done in our schools, in our high schools, for the people who in a few short years will be married and building homes, this sort of thing. Are they being educated to the kinds of homes they should be building? Are they being educated to the kinds of conservation techniques that are needed today to cut down on the cost of electricty, to cut down on the cost of energy?

And I certainly would recomMend this as a step 1 that we bring in some sort of a programme in our schools to educate our young people and,of course 1 to supplement that we must certa.i."l.lY do something so that we can inform the consumers now, the people who are now consuming electricity - and again tt.: ;.~.ister of Mines and Energy got on to a few of the things that can be done. But this T~~t be done on a larger and a broader scale. It must be a deliber<r. ,te attempt.

I hope that this is what the hon. member was getting at, some sort of educational programme for the public so that they know, so that they are aware of 1 one, 4:115

December 5, 1979 Tape No. 1636 NM - 3 Jm. LUSH: the need for conservation, and ~~o. of course, the way __ in which they can conserve energy, the wa{ in I ~ whicil they can cut down ~A ~he cost of el 77i!ci:ei:tl e:._ "..L , • 41.16

December 5, 1979 Tape 1637 PK - l ~.r. Lush: the ways in which they can cut down on the cost of electricity in their homes. And I would hope that we do not come up with any ideas like the hen. member did for St. John's North (Mr.

Carter) , I believe, when some weeks ago he was talk!ng ab~ut c~~s~ing anergy and. talking about various methods lfit.l·1 respect to elecuicia.l utilities or equipment in the homes and said that one of the cheap users of electricity or one of the pieces of equipment that we could buy which uses very little electricity or kilowatt hours 1 whatever the terminology is, and he recommended microwave ovens • Now I would not want to go down in my district recommending that people buy microwave ovens to cut down on the cost of electricity 1 I can assure you. Sut I hope that we can come up with some very positive steps.

And I am sure that microwave ovens cut down on the cost cf electricity, but look at the initial outlay for many of the consumers in this Province. It is probably f~~e for wealthy people, rich people to buy microwave ovens 1 but it is not the th~•g to be recommending to the consumers of ~~e Terra Nova district,! can assure you.

But there are several things I am !lure that the government can do, several things along with this educational programme, this massive educational programme that we can instruct our people about that we can make them aware of, so that they can do the things required, as I have said be.fore, to cut down on the cost of energy. Now I would just like to make a comment again on a matter raised by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) and that was to do with the CHIP Programme, or I think probably more commonly referred to by the residents of this Province as the Home Insulation Programme.

And again this is a good programme,encouraging people to insulate their homes , homes that were built at a certain time. But I would hope that the members on the opposite side would certainly see that this progr.~e was improved, because as nearly as I can recall the home had to be built somewhere since, I believe, '41.17

December 5, 1979 Tape 1637 PK - 2 or prior to 1940 or since 1940,whatever it is,that is eliminating,it is sort of restricting~ lot of our people from applying. It is keeping it wi~hin a very, very small group, and suggesting , of course, tr.at maybe hol'\es built i.:: the 1950s or in the 1960s were well ins\Ua ted. As hon. members know, that is not so. I would like to see the time period broadened on that particular progranme.

But, again, I am not quite sure of the dates but I believe it is homes built prior to 1940 which, of course, makes the house about forty years old before you qualify. ~-low I understand that there were some moves to advance that date,to bring it up to 1950 or 1960. So I would hope that hen. members - this is a step that we would take to encourage the government to up that date, to advance the date to bring it to the 1950s or to the 1960s. Because I can assure hon. members that there are a lot of poorly insulated houses built after the 1940s ~~ after the 1950s ~ ~fter the 1960s and ~fter the 1970s.

So there are a lot of people that cannot benefit from this particular programme the way it is presen~ly structured. Now maybe that is what the Premier had in mind when some weeks ago,he indicated via the news media ~~at, I believe that he said, that he would like for this government to have control of that particular programme. And maybe he should. Maybe that is the best people to administer this programme.

And I would hope, as I have said, if they do that, if they administer the programme that they lo!Quld certainly r look at aavancing the date by which may qualify because there is certainly a vast need for people to insulate their homes, homes that were built in t!'!e 1950s, homes that were built in the 1960s and homes that were built in the 1970s. And tha.' a·:·-'~n could be a measure, that could be a step the government could take to ensure t~t the cost of electricity is substantially reduceq, is substantially minimized to the people of this Province.

Because again 1 let me reiterate that the cost of energy is getting beyond the reach., is getting beyond the capabilit:~-· of many, many people in the Province of Newfoundl.anci ana J..aDraaor, 41.18

oecel!'li:ler 5, 1979 Tape 1638 E:C - l :o!R. LUS!i: and artything we can C.o in cenns of developing our full hydro potential anci in te=.s of taking measures and steps that will certainly encourage people ar.ci t."'at ·.;ill certainly entice people to conserve energy are co=endable steps. I ·.;ould hope that all cembers of the House will give their serious attention to this particular resolution artd come up with ideas artci suggestions on which this government:. can act. Thank. you, ~!r. Speake:::, SOME liO~ • ME!o!SERS : M..'l..

SPEAKER: (9uttl 1-IR. !USCOC.'C: Hear, hear ~ 'ele hon. tb.e metr.ber for Eagle River. ~ext to fishing en t.~e coast of Labrador, I tilL~ I would ~o on record to say ~~ere is ~o ot.~er issue so impor-..ant to the people of r.abrador as housing.

I -.,.ould also go as far as to say that .. -e talk of the underprivileged world, of ?akistan,of India and other ones about housing - again, I ..,-oulci classify coastal I.a.bracior in ;:his conc:.ition anci I would !:le able to substantiate ~"lis ·..rith ~i.e facts. :rost of t.'le fo= of energy on t.~e coast of Labracor generators ,not from hydro gower- even t.'l.ough we have C:urc.~ill Fal.ls in Lal:lradcr.

There are two COI!!I:Iunities up there, ~o= <lay a....,_d ?insent -"-""'-• whic.'1 do not even have a diesel generator, but have private generators.!t has also been proven dcwn there - so ;r,uch so t.'l.at t.'le Minister of Co~s;.::r.e::: ~fairs and Envirolll!lent (!-Irs. ;o~ewhookl is having a ;ublic L'lq:u.i::y in:::o the high CQst of gas and oil in the community of Slac.l;. Tic.';.le, and I ·.;o'.lld even go as far as to say that sho~d be extended alor.g t.'l.e coast. There are places along t.'le coast of Labrador where ~d is not available as an alternate form of energy.

In Blac::k Tic.'<.le t.~ere is not one tree. The people of Fox Harbour have to go L'l six or seven miles. Resiaents of all t.'-:.e communi ties along the Straits of r..3b:ador from L'AnEe-au-Clair to Pinware have to go in seven or eight miles by skidoo. Port Hope Simpson is not so bad, but basically they have to go in about eight miles. And ! can go on down ~'le coast and point out t.'le fac-t that if they want wood as an alternate fo= oi energy, they have to make quite an investment in money in orcer to get it. 41.19

December 5, 1979 Tape l63S EC - 2 :1R. iiiSCOO::: I also .rant to point out t.'lat in :rost of ~~ese communities, wni~'l are S~£r stations, residents have two houses and., ~'1erefore, :1.ave great difficulty wi ~'1 t:1.e upkeep of these t'.,.o houses. l'..ost of ~'le houses are of wooden structure, most do not have basements and most are not insulated. Again, as I can prove by cilese reports, they do not have a system on the coast of !.abrader = carry these programmes to cite people. I was amazed, in actual fact, at tne Xinister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barrtl getting into very high theories, and one of the t.'lings I learned from his speec.'l .,..as that it was all acade:ni.c. I am amazed t.'lat he can get up and actually talk in suc.'l acade!D.ic terms instead of getting to realities.

The reason why I '"'anted 1:0 speak on th:is was to point out the realities and offer concrete terms on how the Govenunent of Newfoundland. and !.~ra.C:Or actually can save :noney and improve living conditions for the people of this P:-ovince on tile coast of Labrador. ~e ;)lewfoundland and r.a.Drador Housing Corporation has an officer at r.·~~se-au-r.oup, but hewas respons~le only for tila.t part of tile coast. There was nobody responsible f=m Mary's :ia:::l:..our up to Cartwright. New he has been given jurisdiction over tilat area.

When the officer goes in to inspect e.;.e houses - in m:lSt cases the houses take e-... o or t.'lree years to be built. The people cut ~'le logs, leave the!!l to dry and go on fishing. Then t.'te y come back and partly build the houses t.'lat E'all anci Winter. The D:Xt yeaz they go fishing again and 1 later, finish t.'lem. So, for houses that are privately owned, it takes, at least in most cases, three years to build them. The cost of oil and gas on ~"lat coast is, as I said, the highest in Newfoundland, and I wculci go as far as to say the highest in North America.

Also, t.'lere is a monopoly on t."lat oil anci t..,e people have no other choice but to buy it from one pe:rson. There is a RRAP programme going - a rural remote housing programme - from L' Anse-au-Clair to Red aay, and I must say, r co111111eild t.'le:n 011 t..'le job t."lat they are cioing. It is also 4:120 .·

;:lec;ember 5, 1979 Tap,e l6;s ~c- 3 MR. !iiSCQC<: in Goose Say, l:lue ::: ask the question, W'ny is it no;; on the o.ldest part of r.a;,rador 1 from ~!aey's F..arbour to Cartwriqht? Why are these people being exclucieC:, upeci.ally \fhen ":::.ey have to l!lainta.i.'l two houses? They mai.:ltai..'l a b.ousC! in t."le S~r statio:t - fine, they do not partic:ul.arly need it, but colllinq back in t:."le liinter on tb.e Labrador Coast where the Winter sets in earlier, th.e:t have to cons~ lllOre for1115 of gas and electricit-J.

Why is it: t."'.at be standard of ;'lousing h.as been improved in one instance and not in t.'le other? The Millister of Mines and Energy (Ml:. Barry) al.so said something, and I (inaucti.l:llel briefs as being presented in Goose Bay and on t.'":.e Straits that :.;ewfoun~land and Labrac!or Hydro are going to be bringing t.'le power to t.'le Islan<i part of this 11.21

December o, 1979 Tape No. 1639 NM - l MR. E. HISCCCK: ?rovince, and ~~ey are going to be bringing it through the Straits, but according to Hydro, according to ~~e government, they are not going to put one ounce of electricity, if I am correct, on the Straits itself. MR. BARRY: Thare ~ill be other ways though. MR. HISCOCK: As long as there are going to be other ways, and I want to go on record, I want to make sure that we will get rid of these diesel generators once and . for all on the coast ~dbe connected up by electrical grid. If that is so, fine.

The other thing I want to point out to the Minister of Mines and Energy (~. Barry), and I hope he will pass it on to Mr. Crosbie and to Mr. Clark in Ottawa, that wi~~ reg~d to the North, Mr.

Crosbie is saying that the older people are going to be c1.1Shioned against ~>te high cost of gas a:1d oil and also people on fixed incomes, I would even go as far as to say that the people in the North should also be taken into consideration and be cushioned, beuuse they have to consume more gas and oil than ~y other part" of Canada because of the climatic conditions and it is over a longer period of time- I hope to see ~~is government, and maybe this House, make this recommendation to the Government of Canada, that the Nor~~ itsel= be included in a special programme for cushioning.

Maybe we could get the taxation of this government, which is almost twenty-eight cents on the gallons, done away with, and also the federal tax done away with, because as it is now it is up to some~~ing like Sl.40, $1.50 a gallon on the Coast.

Newfoundland Light and Power, I am going to sa·: ,.uu-..:tlling now and prc-:, '"c !::-1. ~ I should consult - but: one of the things,as far as I am ~oncerned personally, and this is only my own personal opinion, I feel that company should be nationized, and I hope that in time that basically this party 1 on this side of the House , will see fit to back that position,that we nationalize Newfoundland tight 41.22

December 6, 1979 Tape No. 1639 NM - 2 MR. HISCOCK: and Power from the point of view that we do not need a go-between, that Newfo~~dland Hydro take over the Newfoundland Light and Power =hereby getting rid of ~~e middle­ man and giving a saving to our people of this Province. I see no reason why a company has :o make Sl million profit each year and turn around and say to the people of this Province that, basicall~ if you consume wood and you cut back then we will have to bring in another taxation saving device ~~at will make sure that you pay the regular rate.

So as far as I am concernec 1 personall~ I think that should be nationalized. With regard ·-:o housing, I want to take these reports that ar?. "o"!ing done for the provincial government, basically I think for DR3E on the effects on the Coast. These reports on each commur.i ':"' -of t~e coast are prepared by l'J1CO Limited, in association with Terpstra Engineering Limited, for the provincial government. Forteau, .Labrador - over 145 houses in this community. 95 in very good condition, 32 in good condition, 21 are in fair condition and 3 are in poor condition.

Half o: them have wooden basements 22 of them have wooden basements - ar:d 5 of them have concrete basements. The Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) said that you have a type of technology nowwhere you can take pictures to find out how much energy is being lost from cracks and windows and doors. I suggest ~,at he go down on the Coast of Labrador and he would not see cracks or anything, he would just see nothing, just one big blob and it would not be hot air from this building either.

L'Anse-au-Loup itself, L'Anse-au-Loup has 1· 1 ~ ho:··;es, Sl. are in very good condition - and by the way I may point out this is the result of the RRAP programme. This is the result of the RRAP programme, this is the result of the RRAP programme that has been on the go for the past four or five years in this . 4:1.23

December &, 1979 Tape No. 1&39 NM- 3 MR._ HISCOC~: area. So if I were to have taken these reports four or five years aqo this would have been worse aqain.

And w!ule I am reading these reports,! ho~efully will make ~~e recommendation that this qovernment will see fit to make rec:olllllll!nda.tions to the federal government that Mary's !iar!;lour t:o Cartwright be brought in under the RRAP proqra.tllllle so that we can get these other hol.lSes that are in fair condition, and in poor condition, brought up to a standard so that we can save energy in this Province anti improve living conditions for the people • In L'Anse-au-Loupias I said, 142 houses, 81 are in very gcoc1 condition; good condito.n - 45; fair condition - 25; poor condition - 12.

Pinware, 40 houses; i3 ve--ry qood condition; good - 16; fair condition ~ 13; 1124 ..

~ce:!'.:.er 5, 1979 Ta;::e l'io. 1640 >;R. E: • liiSCOC:Z: poor condition, five, most of ti1ese again are on 'lioo<ien pillars anC.,aga.in, like t.'le :iorth in that way. P.ed ;;.ay thirty-cree in very good ·. condition; in geed condition, twenty-ei<;:<t; fair, tnirt;r-one; and ;::oor , ele·.-en. :!R. i:iOU.SE: K'lo dete:onined t."lat evaluation? HR. E.

SI.SCOC~: This was t.'i.e company, AlolCO Li::U. ted in association with Tarpstra Engineering t.~t ~ as co~ssionec cy ~•e c;overn..oent to <io .;tudies all along t.'i.e Labrador coast from Nain to Cart·~· right. 'l:r.ese are only preliminary re?orts that are goi.:J.g to be brcu¢.t to t."l.e govermr.ent by t.'le end of Dece:rO::er.

Charlottetown residents - and t.us is true all along the coa;;t but it is wric.ten here "::ly t.'lem: "Residents e!~ress t.'":.e views that the Ne,.·founC.land ar..d La.braC.or iiousing re;;uire­ l!lents for surveying lots and lanci grants an~ t.'":.at C·SC requirel!'.ent of suaranteed income were too stringent for t.'le residents of the coast. surveys are difficult to arrange and costly, es;::ecially on ~'l inciivid­ ual basis.

So basically what I am pointing out there is that if t.'ley ·,.ant to build a ne" ~ouse on tile coast, frorn t.'le Ne...;foun:iland ana Laarador Housing Corpora"t.ion, most likely t.'":.ey wil.l giv·e up on it because of t.'i.e difficulty of getting an ins;:ector to col!'.e down a.."ld ins;;ect the lot, to get ~. ins:;;ector to CO!!'.e de~Nn and give t.'":.e .reco=endation as to :.he size of the land.

AA-i as a result l:lCSt ?eo_;;i..e ila.ve forgotten ..;;;out i.t an.:! ''ill not l:.other with t:'le ··<ew!ou.'l<iland a.'ld Laaraclor iiousL'l.g Cor:;;ora.tion an~ as a re;;;J.lt, as I have sai.i, it takes the:n SO!l2times t.'lree tc four years to try to get a neuse on t.;•e:: go. And cecause o:: e.;,at, of not getting any l'.elCJ, they are building the ~ouses without an.y kind of insulation and tile prcl:llem still continues. Fox iiar.bour, Labrador: '!went:y-t-:~o in very good conCiticn; good condition, thirty-five ; fair conCition, t;~;enty­ cne; :;;ocr condition, seven.

Again, as I have said, I will. point cut t:<at none cf these have base~ents and al.l of ~'lese are wooden houses. In Ca.rtw·rigilt, I.~raclor, Cartwright has 164 ~ouses, just listen to t:1is, very good houses, twenty-one; ;co~ houses, seventy-one; fair - would you ;;ay a f air hous loses a lol:. of aner:;-.r, consumes a lot of energy, causes unci'.le harcisll.ip to the peo!?le . 41.25

December 5, 1979 ess:ecia11~· ·.4·:1e.:l t..:.-:.e cost of oil is so eA'~.:nsive? - fair, eignty-two; ,i?OOr, O:ift:t"-one. FiO:ty-cne cf tile liou.:>e:s cio~o-n t.'lere are i.' ~oor condition and as a r~sult how can ~'ley "t:.'..lr!'. arc=C., ~itil me ccst: of livir.g going uc;- all ti1.a ti;ne and build a new hou.:>e ~"1at: ·,ill save energy particularly when t.'ley .ic net have tne ;?rogra..'"l!r.es ciowr, ~ere to help t.'l;a~? 3la~ Tickle is ~esi;nate~ as the native community :oo t.'":.e:tefQrs it qualifies for grants fr= the FeC.eral C-ove~­ =nt to builc! hcusas which t:1ey continue to do.

Zn Black Tickle, fort:r·­ one O.wellings - cr.c:re are :nore t.'1.an forty-one.

Cf t:•ese ei<;hteen are in very good condition; good condition, eight; fair condition, eighteen; ! was t..'l.ere five :.·ears ago - and wb.ile I 10as t."lere ••ew·four.C.land and Labrador iiousing Corporation built t"..ro :1ouses. ;1h.ile t:•ey i;.uilt those two houses for tile people ti•ere two ot..'lers "'.are concier..ned and ir.steaC. of D.aving the t".'lo ;:.ouses <;.'lat supposed to be conC.err.r.e:::, torn do;,n, ,.;i:.at nappened? - t<;o other families moved into them. c:-.1o :ioung ma=ieci faltilies •,;ho had c,.;uldren moved into these ;,ouses.

Then when I ·.,·as callljfai;ninc; t.'lere, or the nurse comes t.'-.ere or tile co==it~· •,;crker cotres t.'lere or the teacher comes in ~'l.e first tiling tnat hap:;;;ens, tilese ;;:eople come up and grab you by the a= and i::ring you down to t.'le co=unity and say, 'Look, at t.'le conditions t..'lat we are livir.g in', l:;01t tl•e;· dici not tell you t:llat a i~ouse was built and t.'lat a house ·,;as s~.:;?posed to l;e torn down.

So an:r,..ay, w~le r ·,..as t.'lere t.us t.i~r.e 10e enci;ci U.i? having another two houses built and I had to call a ~reeting of t..'-.e council and get another two ••ouses torn down sc tl•at proi::lec: '.-oulC. not continue to fester and other .i?eopla move into s~-stanc!ard houses. So I would like to also go on record as saying t.'lat if t.'l.: z;ewfcundlanc! and.

Labrador ~ousir.g Corporation is going to l:;e building ~ouses for the ~eople who need them, people on social assistance or in native cc~unities, t.'1at tr..ey a.lso :Ce ress;onsible for tearing doloo'tl conder-~•ec houses so that ot.'ler people do not.~ove into them, ~·~ th~t we rut ~ore press01re on 41.26

.Jec~r 5, 1979 Tape c!o. 1640 :H/ - 3 -;.:,ese ;;>eol?le • .3.gain there are no bascmen~s, 50 f.a: ::er..t of ~::.~.e !J'-lild.i...~gs are on '.·teo den 41.27

December ~. 1979 Tape No. 1641 1-'.R. HISCOCK: Very good condition, seven: good condition, eight; fai= condition, fifteen; poor condition twenty-three. L'Anse-au-Clair; again I can go on. I will not bother to go on with this but basically what I am trying to point out is that in the energy prograame, the Minister of Mines a11c1 Energy (Mr. Barry) r.tas extremely academic in his ap~roach. I do not want to be academic, I have real problexns here.

I want answers to these and I want the answer that we get a RRAP programme on the coast of Labrador, extended so that we can turn around and save ~~e energy and basically end up improving ~~e standard of living. I have letters after letters after letters, more so than on Fisheries, we cannot have people stay in these houses during the Winter.

Six houses were supposed to be built this year but due to a delay in inspection, due to a delay in approval and ~~e bureaucracy it has to go through, these six families now have to wait until next year until these houses are built and as a result,the Oepa=tment of Social Services ~~d Rehabilitation has to pay rent for them now. That should be speeded up. So I recommend ~~at basically this government should go on record as recommending to Mr. Clark and Mr. Crosbie that there should be some special programme wi~~ the cost of oil and gas being subsidized or taxation being done away wi~~-wi~~ regard to the North.

Number two, that a ~ programme be extended from L'Anse-au-clair all the way up to Paradise River, all ~~e coast of Labrador that is not included in the native cotl'll1unities. SD-1 So these are some of the things that hopefully the government - I have no hesitation in supporting this motion, in actual fact, I was quite pleased when I saw I was able to get up and give this evidence. So I thank the House for bringing this motion in. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBE.'tS : Rear, hear: MR. SPEAKER(Butt): The hon. the Leader of the apposition. MR. .:r.>. . .'UESON: Mr.

Speaker, I do not propose to take a great deal of time this afternoon and I believe there has been some agreement that unless other members ·..rish to speak the 41.28

L 2 -~e face it today. ! t!lir_tc. t.."i.at i~ is per:ups L-::possibler gi,en :.h~ a.bou.t :.at.y of t,;~e 'Nast;s, al::'.o~t scar..c.i.a.lo1JS -..;as~~s, that are ·;oing to ::J.Y a~-=a:!ltion ~,...hile r was t~e ;!ini~ter cf T:-ar..spcr-t. .anti : a..-:-. :"" .. c: of tbe :nattar i-3 t..~t t.:.~e automobile::, r::"le i;J.cii-.•iciua.lowned and operated is ~~e fact ~at fc= all of i:~ li!e,frcc ~.e i~st3~t it ~~tough~ act:Jally =Cil.e something li.~e J to 4 per cent: of t:hat o;;hole perioc.

L~ other words, 97 per cent of its ti..-:-u: is a.ctWJ.lly occ~~i~ci wit:l. s~~ly sitting ei~~er in front of t~e door while peofle sleep, front of an office while ~~ey work or some~~; of that: nat:~e, ar.d that I use as an illustration of j=t ::-.ow al.-:tost 5canda.lo~.:S, I repeat,has become cur wasteful h~it with :::e;a:d 1:0 encrg:,·.

And ! am just speaking here, of course, of energy as it a!fects gasoli~e and the li.:..:e . ~1is has some rno~i£icatio~s, if you wish, in ~~e sense that one of the ·.·orries that I :U·.re about the growing energy crisis anC. the inevitability,it se~~s,of increasing costs 1is the very large number and the inc:::easing nu.':\h~r of .)lewfo-.u-.dlanders . .,.ho aze travelling a.::.d 41.29

~ec~~er 3, 1979 ·:.ape :;o. 1641 .3D - ~ ~eople wit:"'l the 1130

Decerber 6,10'""9 Tape ~!o. 1642 ~R.JN!I'ESO!i: cos~ of ener~1 as it relates to transport. ! certainly hope ~~at (

a) t.~e federal gove:rnmer-t and, secondly, the Government of Newfoundland will consider some tec!'!nicue "'hereby people :nay !:le encourage e. for example, in t.~e use of pool arrangements- some of it is happening already aE a result of higher prices,but perhaps a ver1 useful ~et.~od :niqht be of giving people some form of concession , t.~at is, a group of workers heaoing in the same general direction so that you co not rave the s~ctacle,whi~~ ! am sure all m~~ers have observed at crossroads and various ot.~er intersections, say, along tl1e Trans-canac'a High\o:a~· or elsewhere 1 cf three or four t.~ousand po~nds of autorro~ile ,multiplied o~e hundred tL~es carrying a single individual to t."'e same destination for precisely the sco.IT'e ;-ur;:ose.

Jl.nd SO!!'et."Ung along t!'lat line - I confess not to !lave a formula directl~ on t.'l.e top of my heaci- '•IOUld be extremely useful in terms of t.~e objec-cives . .,hioh t.'!e hon. mel!'.ber has talked about. There is another poL'lt ! war.t to r.:ake and it really relates to t.'l.e c:uite excellent intervention , I thought, !'Jy the hen. !!'ember for Eagle ?.iver(!1r.Hiscock) 1 who