VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, AUGUST 10, 1979 NO. 20

August 10, 1979 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 696 NM - l Order, please! We have some distinguished visitors to the galleries today and I am sure all hon. members would like to extend a warm welcome to people representing the Legion, Mr. Ed Coley, the Dominion President, Mr. Al Harvey, the Vice­ President. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Dave caperol, the Vice-President, Mr. Stan Walpole, Dominion Command, and Mr. Gordon Collins, the President of the Newfoundland command. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ... STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, in the House yesterday in my statement I said that the Fisheries .Loan Board had met on July 27th., when in fact the date of their meeting was- the date of the meeting of the board itself was Monday, August 6th. On July 27th. the Evaluation Committee of that board, which is a committee of the Fisheries Loan Board, met to consider a number of applications, and then on the 6th. of August the Loan Board met. I apologize to my friends opposite, Mr. Speaker, the error was unfortunate. I think the hon. member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) phoned the secretary of the chairman of the board, who was on vacation and was not aware of the meeting on August 6th. But I think that matter has since been corrected between the matter of the conversation between the chairman and the member concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for clarifying the matter. For once he and I were both right and that sets a bit of a record in this House. It is usually one of us, and I will not 1759

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 696 NM- 2 ~- SIMMONS: say which is right more than the othU. But I am grateful to tll.e chaiJ:Iuan, Mr. George, who when he discovered the error did get in touch with me by telephone yesterday eveninc; and explained the error which I new understand to be quite an innocent error, that I was getting information that in fact was wrong information but not deliberately so. it to the House's attention. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. BARRY: I thank the minister for bringing The hon. ~is.ter of Mines and Energy. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to announce that Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro wi1l be carrying out a small scale hydro development, or so calle4 mini':'"hYd.J.:o.t.·_fo~. the ROdaJ.cJct:on are~. SOME HON. MEMBER,S: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Roddickton is presently served by diesel generation through the :;:>ower Ilistribation District of Newfoundland and Labradpr which operates. some fifty-one isolated diesel generating plants thro~ghout the Province. The· cost of electricity generated at these sites is quite high .;md the Hydro Corporation bas been anxious to find a means of reducing these costs. 1780

August 10, 1979 Tape 697 PK - 1 Mr. Barry: In early l978 1 Hydro requested funding assistance from the federal government to investigate the potential for development of small scale hydro plants close to communities where power was generated using diesel fuel. Agreement was reached on an investigation of the small scale hydro potential at all sites, on the understanding that a demonstration project would be constructed if a suitable site were found. Funding was on a cost-shared basis with 90 per cent of the cost contributed by the federal government and 10 per cent by the Province.

A maximum budget of approximately $1.2 million was approved to cover the evaluation study costs as well as construction of a demonstration project. Analysis of the small scale hydro potential was performed by Hydro for ShaWMont Newfoundland Limited, and the results showed that there is some hydro potential at twenty-eight of the communities investigated. However, not all of the sites appear attractive. out of the twenty-eight sites examined,it was estimated that only thirteen could be categorized as having some possibility for viable development.

These thirteen sites were then examined to determine their suitability for selection as a demonstration project. The main factors considered were the economic viability of the site, its likely environmental implications. and the size of the scheme, "'" for while a relatively large project was preferred in order to maximize potential fuel savings 1the scope of the project had to fit within the agreed budget of $1.2 million.

After considering all relevant factors 1we have decided that in conjunction with the ~ederal Department of Energy, Mines and Resources that the demonstration project should be constructed at Roddickton. The site is considered to be reasonably representative of other potential sites, and it is typical of the kind of project that must be proven to be economic if small scale hydro is to make a contribution to rural electri;ication in the Province. 1.761.

August 10 , 1979 Tape 697 PK - 2 Mr. Barry: The small h:yrdo p:lant whi.ch is to be considered at Ro4dickton will not eliminate ~e need for diesel generation in that area totally. Rather it will worlt :in conjunction with the existi:nq diesel pl.ant to supply some of the load and hence save diesel fuel. The installed capacity of the plant will be approximately 360 ktlowatts, and you mast eompare t;hat with the 75,000 kilowatts at Hinqs Lake; lllld it will be installed on Marble Brook whicP, is approximately two kilometers from Rcddickton.

Energy geherated from the plant is e~timated to displace approximately 115,000 g<!llons of fuel oil per year resulting in an estimated saving of approximately $74,000 a year. AN HON. MEMBER: How long more? MR., BARRY: I ill!l aln!ost finished. Specifications for the turbine generator should be released for review by potential. suppliers during 1762

AU<JUSt 10,1.979 Tape No. 698 AH-1 MR. BARRY: this coming week. Access road construction will commence in the Fall of 1979,with on-site construction commencing in the Spring of 1980 for an in-service date in the Fall of 1980. The construction practices to be utilized for this project will differ somewhat from those utilized by Hydro on larger scale projects. Hydro intends to undertake the work involved by hiring a local labour fon:e with the work being supervised by a construction superintendent and managed directly by Hydro's &ngineering and Construction Division staff.

This undertaking at Roddickton I consider to be a positive step in the process of evaluating. the potential of small scale hydro plants to displace expensive diesel fuel in the generation of el.ectricity. The economic attractiveness obviously of this particular demonstration project was enhanced significantly through the federal government's contribution of ninety per cent of the plant's capital cost. The experience gained in this venture should make clear whether or not similar undertakings may be. justified in the future at other locations.

I have just to add the qualification that it is unlikely that the bottom line in terms of mils per kilowatt hour of this project would in itself have justified the Province undertaking it without the federal intervention because it looks like this and the other small sites are going to be fairly expensive power. But we will. have the demonstration project and hopefully we will be able to utilize wherever possible future sites in the coming years . This will all be looked at. MR. SPEAKER: (Silllli\

S) The hon. member for Bay Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, let me begin by saying that I certainl.y wel.come the announcement made by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry) this morning for two reasons. 1763

Auqust 10,1979 Tape No. 698 AH-2 MR. RIDEOUT : One 1 because of the concept and I have been waiting for some tjme to find out the result of the study that was undertaken under a. DREE agreement, I believe, between the Province and Ottawa on this kind of power generation, I thinl< the concept is an excellent one so I am happy to hear the news for that reason.

And also,of course, I am delighted to hear that Roddickton has been chosen as the site for this particular development because it is in my constituency, and I am delighted that Roddi~ton has been chosen as the site for the development for a. couple of reasons also.

As most members of this House, I am sure, are aware, Roddickton is still fumbling along, I suppose is as good a way as any to put it,with a serious economic problem.Although the problem has somewhat brightened from the state it was a. number of month ago, there is still a serious economic problem in the Roddick ton area and this project will certainly have some benefit for people who are still unemployed in the area So for those reasons I am very happy that Roddickton has been chosen as the site for this new project. 1764

.l\ugust 10, 1979 Tape 699 EC - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: The minister did not make any reference in his Ministerial Statement as to whether or not,as a result of this project coming on stream, electricity rates to the consumer in the Roddickton area will be lowered. As the minister anci the House are aware, those people are now on diesel generated electricity and they are paying a higher price per kilowatt hour than those of us who are receiving electricity from hydro sources.

So I would be interested in knowing whether or not as a result of this project, this bringing on stream to supplement the diesel power in the - Roddickton, Conche, Bide Arm and Englee, I think, are the communities served by the Roddickton P.D.D. I would be interested in knowing whether or not as a result of bringing this project on stream in a year or so's time, whether the consumer in that area can expect to see some reduction in the cost per kilowatt h•ur over what they are paying now for the diesel generated power.

Sir, I am very happy that Roddick ton has been chosen, and I am sure the people in the area will appreciate very much that the project is going ahead there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Grand Bank. I rise on a point of pri•~lege. A point of privilege. Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw to your attention and to the attention of members of this House, a headline which appeared in this morning's Daily News.

The headline cries out, "It's Corner Brook again Claim Mounties 'hustling' women drivers" • And then the story in this morning's Daily News attributes this to me: "Les Thoms (L, Grand Bank) said he has heard that 'young unattached women' have been stopped as often as three times in one night by the same officer." And it goes on to talk about the fact that I accused the RCMP of 'hustling' women. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I spoke yesterday in reply to the statement by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), 1765

August 10, ~979 Tape 699 EC - 2 MR. TiiOMS: at which time I: had a gr~at ~al of praise for the pollee in this city. A reading of Hansard will clearly show that at no time did I accuse the RCMP of hustling women drivers. As a mat~r of fact, at no time durin<J 11.rf remarks in reply to the minister's statement ci;.d I even 111811tion in ~ way, shape or form, the RCMI? operatinq in this Province. And I have the same respect for the RCMP that I have for the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. AN HON. MEMBER: Collie on over: Come on ovar: 1766 •·

August 10, 1979 MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER.: (Simms) MR. L. THOMS : Tape No. 700 Mr. Speaker, this

article - Order, please! SD - l - shows clearly how irresponsi.ble sometimes the press can be and in particular the particular reporter whc reported the story. As a matter of fact, the

article is defamatory. Anybody reading it with any legal training, of course, would realize that the

article is defamatory, I will accept- and I will be following this up, of course, outside the House - nothing less than a full apology and that apology placed prominently where the story is placed this morning. SOME HON. MEMBERS : ~lR. L. THO.'IS: Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, I feel there is a point wf priviledge. I realize that Your Honour might want to take this matter under advisement.

Your Honour may want to look at the story, Your Honour may wish to read Hansard and to read wh.it I said in the House yesterday; as I said, you may want to take it under advisement. llowever, if Your Honour is prepared at this time to rule that there is a point ot priviledge, I could, uf ~curse, make the appropriate motion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: i.ffi.. SPEAKER: Hear, hear. Order, please! I would wish to take the matter under advisement at this point in time so I can check the story to which the hen. member refers and I will give a ruling later on today. The hon. Minister of Education. MS. L. VERGE: ~lr.

Speaker, I wisi:J. to make a statement on the subject of Grade XI examination marks. Final Gracie XI examination marks are being mailed by the Department of Education to students throughout the Province starting today. Since 1972, most final Grade XI marks have been determined by a system of shared evaluation. Under shared evaluation, half the mark is set by a student's own school, 1767

Auqust 1:0 , 1979 Tape No. 700 SD - 2 MS. L. VEBGE: with a.n adjustment made by the Department of Ed11Cation to make s~ mo~ consistent am:onq schools acrosa the Province. The other lalf of the mark is baseci on the score of the public examinations a.dm:i.nistered by the Departlllent of Education tbrouqhout the Province. In some cases, the final Grade XI marks have been base.d entirely on the assessment made by the school. In June l979 C:OIIIPlete sets of public exa.m.inations we.re written by 7,568 students..

In addition to full-tilae students, 549 partial students wrote publia examinations in one or more subjects. Mr. Speaker, over the past sevez:al weeks, at the request of the Department of Education, the Civil Investigation Division of the 1768

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 701 ow - l MRS. L. VERGE: Royal Newfoundland Constabulary has been conducting an (' investigation into allegations that some public examination papers were circulated among students prior to their writing the examinations. Yesterday the police gave an interim report to me indicating that they have evidence that a significant number of students in certain St. John's high schools had improper access to two of the examinations.

Acting on a pollee report 1I have decided to base the final marks for these subjects for all students in the schools named by the police on the school assessment as modified by the Department of Education to make standards more consistent among all schools in the Province. These marks will not be mailed to the students until next week. In taking this action 1 I will be consulting with the Board Superintendentsand school prinicpals whose schools are involved.

The two guiding principles in this division are1 number one; fair treatment of those students who acted properly and did not have an unfair advantage in writing the public examinations. And two - MR. J. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) A point of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: I am tryiDg · to follow the hon. member but I just cannot hear her at all. As a matter of fact,I have not heard the last couple of paragraphs, couple of minutes of what she has been saying. MR.

SPEAKER: I would not rule that•it is a point of order but I would ask the hon. minister if she would accede to the member's request. MRS. L. VERGE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will start at the beginnina of the last part. I MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speake r. MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Strait of Belle Isle. 1769

August to, 1979 Tape No. 701 ow - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member could supply a copy of her statement perhaps my colleague would- MRS • L. VERG!' : Yes, Mr. Speaker, a copy of this statement will be distributed in a few minutes. MR. E. ROBERTS: As the hen. member would understand the whole point of my colleague listening so extra attentively is that he would to respond,as is our right under. And I wonder, maybe that brings up another one where a minister is to make a statement as a courtesy coula there be done here what is done in Ottawa, a few minutes in advance copies be supplied.

Maybe to solve this dilemma 1 if we could allow my friend for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) perhaps to make a comment at the end of the Question Period,say,when he has had an opportunity to read what the hen. minister has had to say. We are having difficulty hearing her but that is not her fault;we are just having difficulty hearing her. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: On that point, Mr.

Speaker, let me just indicate that the reason why the copies were not up before was because the decision had just been made about 9:20A.M. or 9:25 .l\.M. and the Minister of Education (Mrs. Verge) and myself consulted. And in order to inform" the House 1 so that we not do it after the House closed at 1:00 P.M. which would then be a real breach of trying to provide the information to the House,we decided to . rush up a statement now. If the Opposition House Leader (Mr.

Roberts) would notice 1 the Minister of Education did not get here until 10:06 A.M. because the statement was still be typed and that is the reason why copies were not available in advance so that the Opposition would even be in a ·vetter position than they are now to respond in a meaningful way. 1770

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 702 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : of Belle Isle. The han. member for the Straits MR. ROBERTS: I thank the Premier 1 and I wonder if perhaps members opposite would agree on this occasion for these unique circumstances to allow my colleague, the member for Port au Port (Mr. J. Hodder), to respond 1 using his right to respond 1 perhaps after a ten or fifteen minute interval. Would that be·in order? MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. MRS. VERGE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, apparently my microphone here is not working.

I will just go back over the last part of the statement for the benefit of the han. member for Port au Port. over the past several weeks, at the request of the Department of Education, the Civil Investigation Division of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary has been conducting an investigation into allegations that some public examination papers were circulated among students prior to their writing the examinations. Yesterday the police gave an interim report to me indicating that they have evidence that a significant number of students in certain St.

John's high schools had improper access to two of the examinations. Acting on the police report, I nave decided to base the final marks for these subjects for all students in the schools named by the police on the school assessment as modified by the Department of Education to make standards more consistent among all schools in the Province. be mailed to the students until next week. These marks will not In taking this action, I will be consulting with the board superintendents and school principals whose schools are involved. 1771

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 702 NM - 2 MRS. VERGE: The two gui~g principles in this decision are: (

l) fair treatment of those students who ac~ed properly and did not have an unfair advantage in writing the public examinations, and (2) maintaining the integrity of public exiuninations and student assessment. The police investigation is continui.nq. Stern action will be taken against those identified as having taken leading parts in the abuse of the public examination system. AlSo, I undertake to take definite action to tighten public exiunination security and to min~ze the possibility of abuse in the future. SOME HON. MEMEERS: Hear, hear! MR..

SPEAKER (Simms) : -The hon. mi!lllber for Port au Port i.S prepared to respond now,I understand. MR. J. HODDER: Yes. ~- Speaker 1 i 11111st say that when I did stand I could not hear the minister the first time. Actually, Mr. Speaker, first of all, I suppose,. the first part of her statement that the marks are going out to students I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate all students who have been successful in their examinations across the Province. As far as the unfortunate incident that has been filling the newspapers in the past days of the exams, 1.772

August 10, 1979 Tape 703 PK - 1 Mr. Hodder: it is too bad that it happened, but I suppose it has happened in other provinces before. But we hope that it will not happen in this Province again. And I noted that the minister indicated that she would be tightening up the regulations as far as the examination procedures go, and I feel that step must be taken. I would say, Mr.

Speaker, that it says something for the shared evaluation system that we now have in the Province, because if we look back we would have really had a problem had we not had a shared evaluation system whereby the school evaluates part of the students performance and the public exams the other part. But in this case, I think the minister has taken the correct action and, as I understood what she said, in those schools that have been identified the students will be evaluated on the school part of their examination.

I think this is the correct move and I feel that in this way, and from looking at the correlations between what the school usually gives and what the public exams usually give I do not think that there will be a great deal of harm to the students who were innocent in this case. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (.SIMMS) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

JAMIESON; Mr, Speaker, in view of all of the comments about the incorrectness of headlines etc.in the papers 1 I almost hesitate to ask, but I would like to ask the han. the Premier, in view of a headline saying., "Levesque looking forward to talks with Peckford", and it makes reference to the Lower Churchill, I just wonder if the han. the Premier has - is it just informal talks or is there some kind of a basic proposition being discussed? Any information that the han. Premier can give us? 1773

August 10, 1979 Tape 703 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I was as interested in the head1ine and the Sl:ory as the Leader of the Opposition.

It is the first that I heard of it. but undoubtedly the Premier of Quebec is referring to the Premiers' meeting in the Province of Quebec next week, and I guess his desire to sit down and talk generally about the whole question of our relationships as it relates to the Labrador power developme~t. so until r get further information or get in touch with the Province of Quebec that is the only thing I can assume from the column in the paper this morning. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon . member for ~oile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Consumer Affairs and the Environment.

I wonder would the minister care to comment on the reports that: a couple of hundred birds, which is described as a sorry sight, have been found dead in the Cape St: . ~~·s bird's sanctuary as a result of oil poLlut:ion in t he wat:er around that area? . 1774 ..

August 10,19?9 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Affairs and Environment. Tape No. 704 AH-1 Hon. Minister of Consumer MRS NEWHOO!t: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we nave received a report from a ~!ildlife worker in the bird sanctuary there. He has counted 100 birds on one of the beaches and also another 100 birds, I think, on Bird Rock.

He has confir111ed that there is an indication of oil on these birds, As far as I know these birds are the young birds leaving the nest this year and· are probably the inexperienced birds who really have to light on the water more often than the more experienced flyers and these are the birds that they have been sighting on the beaches and on the rocks down there. We really do not know as yet just how serious this problem is and Wildlife now are checking it out. But there is no doubt that it is due to the oil that these birds are now found dead along the beaches.

There will be a further report as we get more information. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. A supplementary. The Mr. Speaker, ,would the hon. lady indicate whether or not her department is monitoring the investigation for oil pollution along the Southwest Coast and in St. Mary's Bay, if her department is working with the Coast Guard or monitoring the activities of the Coast Guard to determine just how serious the oil pollution is and if it is being down-played by the Coast Guard and by the people who are responsible for creating this mess? MR. SPEAKER: MRS.

NEWHOOK: The hon. minister. Yes, Mr. Speaker, we do have monitors all along the South Coast. We have one monitor down there who co-ordinates the disposal of the oil collected. We have another person there operating a boat and he is canvassing the South Coast watching out for oil spills coming ashore. We do have another 1775

August 10,1979 Tape No. 704 AH-2 MRS NEWHOO!It: person down there who sets the priorities with the Coast Guard as to whi·ch areas they clean, which are the most important ones and which nave to be done first. There has been quite an indication of oil spills all smmaer,of course 1but to my lalowledqe these are beinq el.eaned up and the more important ones have been done first. The Coast Guard is doinq the clean-up. MR. NEARY: A suppl11111entary, Mi-. Speaker .• 1776

August lO, 1979 Tape No. 705 SD - l MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) for LaPolla. A final supplementary, the hon. member MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary for the hon. the Premier, Sir. Would the hen. the Premier indicate if he has been following the events and the activities a.J.onq the Southwest coast and, in the bon. gentleman's opinion, does the han. gentleman feel - we have discussed this before, that is why I am directing my question to the Premier., not to the non. minister; it is not a slight.

The bon. the Premier and I had a go at it in Question Period before the House was dissolved before the provincial general election. We both came to the conclusion, I believe . the hen. gentleman agreed with me, that we do not have the technology to clean up major oil spills or blowouts of£ our coast. That fact has been determined. But the hon. gentleman told me he was going to meet with, I believe, the new Pr~e Minister or the Government of Canada to discuss this whole matter of movement of oil tankers along our coast and the clean-up technology that is available at the present t~e.

Has the he~. gentleman had these meetings yet? Is the bon. gentleman planning any meetings in connection with the threat to our environment and the possible extinction of the fishery in this Province if we have a major blowout of one of the offshore wells or if we have a major spill off our coast? It is a very serious matter; the whole fishing industry is in jeopardy because of this. And would the hon. gentleman tell me what steps his government has taken to hold these meetings with the Government of canada to try to prevent such a disaster occurring in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, ;>~r. Speaker. As the hon. member mentioned, we talked about this very important subject before. of the Environment (Mrs. H. Newhook) in a statement yesterday 1777 The Minister

Auqus~ 10, 1979 Tape No. 705 so - 2 P~MmR PECKfORD: indicated that we have already, as a government, COIIIIIIUllicated to the Federal. Government,. the Minister of the Enviro:nment to the minister in Ottawa, about our concerns on this llliitter. Last niqht, as a matter of fact, a number of ministers and mysel.f were discussing the same issue aqain as it relates to the whole que&tion of. tanker traffic, boat traffic· aroun4 the Province :because, as the bon. member knows, there is. a fair illllount of it.

A lot of the larqer COIIIIQWlities around the coast have the: Irvinq oil or the ESSO or the Shell or whoever tanks for domestic oil for the Winter time 1 and so the smal.ler tankers are qoinq into a lot of different bays and harbour and coves around the Province and it coul.d be a very serious matter. And I notic .ed this morning a newsitem relatinq to a statement by somebody in c-core about the Wld.ezwater k.illd of pollution which is very difficult to manaq .e and I quess this has bean heightened by the Kurdistan, by the blowout or the uncontrolled flow down in the Gulf of Mexico and so on.

We intend to pursue this with the Ministry of Transport as it rel.ates to tanker traffic as well as with the environment people to see whether, 1778

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 706 NM- 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: in fact,the rules and regulations that are now in effect are the best that are available, and is there any improved technology 1 for example, as it relates to Come By Chance. We will have to discuss this with the federal government as well. The methodology used for tanker traffic in Placentia Bay when the refinery was opened initially, is there any new technology now which would even improve, are there stricter regulations to govern it and so on?

But I think the important point is that it is not only for Come By Chance, albeit that will be 1 if the refinery gets reactivated,a busier bay1 but in all the bays and harbours around the Province there is a lot of tanker traffic in the Fall and in the Spring. And in the Fall especially when these smaller tankers are going around ~a fi~l up the small tanks that the local distributors have for distributing domestic oil during the Wintertime. So it is an extremely serious matter.

The Minister of the Environment has already communicated by letter to her counterpart 1 and I will be pursuing the matter with the Ministry of Transport and Environment people in Ottawa in the next two to three weeks, whenever I can get an opportunity 1 when the Prime Minister comes back especially, but with the appropriate ministries in Ottawa. And it might be a matter which I should raise at the Premiers' Conference next week. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final, final supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: I am glad that the han. gentleman acknowledges the fact that this is a very serious matter indeed. I would ask the han. gentleman if he does not feel that this could be a major threat to the fishery in this Province if we have a recurrence 1779

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 706 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: ~ the Kurdistan situation and the prevailing wind happened to be towards Newfoundland instead of towards Nova Scotia, and the tides were running towards this Province, that whole spill would have - we are just getting the tail end of it now, fortunately at the time. But we cannot afford to have· a recurrence of the Kurdistan situation.

And would the hon. gentleman confirm for me that in this Province - or in any other Province for that matter, but I am thinking about our Province more than any other part of Canada- that there is not 1 the techno:),oq:y is not available to take care of a major blow out or a major oil spill off our Coast, despite the fact that the oil companies have spent millions of dollars and have the latest technology that they pawned off on the Coast Guard, that there is no technology on the face of the earth that can handle a major oil spill off our Coast.

So therefore would ~e hon. gentleman not consider asking the Government of Canada to restrict the movement of tankers in the Wintertime when there is ice in the Gulf,because not only are we talking about tankers that replenish the supply of fuel in the local oil tanks, we are talking about movement of ~ankers ~o oil refineries in Nova Scotia, and moving into the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

And I believe there should be some kind of a restriction placed on these tankers moving in ice because that is what happened in the case of the Kurdistan.·· I will ask the hon. gentleman if he will give me his reaction to that proposal. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, that might be one way of handling that international, perhaps, traffic in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and it might be that strict regulationshave to be used.

I do not know what the ramifications for such a policy would be as it relates to the delivery of product to other places which are depending upon it1 but I think the point is well taken. I think we should, Mr. Speaker, as a matter of course, and Question Period perhaps is not the right place 1780

Al!9USt 10, 1979 Ta~ No . 706 NM - 3 PRE:MIER PECKPORD: to do it, but while we are on the subject I think we shoul.d acknowledge right off, we should acknowledge that we are, as a Province, and I d.o not want to be overly dramatic in this, but we are as a Province at the crossroads on a number of major issues dealing with the environment.

I think we should acknowledge that and understand it and appreciate it, one, as it relates to the in=ease in normal, small tanker traffic around our Province as we develop, that is number one, which is increasing at an alarming rate. 'l'wo, the come by Chance oi.l refinery, its possible, probable reactivation, and frequent large tanker traffic in the P1acentia Bay. And thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, is the ongoing offshore oil and gas exploration which are on a lot of our very sensitive fish banks off the East and Northeast Coast.

NOW we are at the crossroads on a lot of those and we have to be extremely careful how we move and that is why this government has taken such pains on the environment side as it relates to the Come by Chance oil refinery and why we must, and the member for Lapoile (Mr. Neary) is correct, be very, very sensitive to and careful. as we move now on the offshore. Because, I 111ean, the Gulf of Mexico - there is not the tecl:mology to handle every single kind of blow-out that can occur depending upon the flow that is coming out of that well 1781. •·

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 707 DW - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: and so on1 how quickly you can get to it, andwhether it is off Labrador or the Island because of the icg situation. So we are really at the crossroads on a number of issues which deal, a number of possible 1 probably developments as it relates to the environment. And we must insist with the federal people that the latest technology is used and weigh it very carefully and any green light or red light that might be given as it relates to those developments.

And I think that should be acknowledged and put on the record right now and some real good debate in this han. House is going to ensue over the next number years 1rnay I addr may I predict in the next twelve months there will be some very, hopefully stimulating and interesting and substantial debate as it relates to this whole issue because I predict, as we move down the road of deciding upon developrnents,sooner rather than late~rnay I add 1these matters are going to have to be fully addressed and this House is going to have to get into a major debate on it. MR.

SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.-G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Dgvelopment - agriculture comes under his portfolio. Would the minister care to comment or give the House some idea of just how serious the threat to the farmers in Bonavista and Lethbridge and the warnings corning to the Avalon Peninsula with regards to the infestation of the night feeders? Would the minister bring the House up to date on - army worms as referred to in the paper - the amount of damage done to date, the threat and w·here this threat originated?

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. !'.R. J. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, the han. member's question takes in two or three areas of concern. ~lumber one, this is not the first infestation of what is referred to commonly as the army worm. The areas affected 1 at least from our research and research done 1782

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 707 ow - 2 MR. J. GOUDIE: by fede£al agricult~al officials to date 1 ia in the Le~~ridge/Charleston areas of Bonavista Bay and St. Phillips in Conception Bay,just outside of St. John's here. They were first spotted this year a few days ago by an agricultural represe~tative with my department at Clarenville and confirmed by Mr. Ray Moores of the-Agricultural Research Station on Brookfield ROad. The last infestation in this Province was ten years ago but it was not of a serious nature then and we do not expect it is going to be of a serious nature now.

One of the factors, I suppose, which would suggest that it is not going to be of a serious nature is that the life cycle of this particular army worm is two weeks. The officials in the department are analyzing the affects of the army worm to date in the two· areas mentioned. I do not have a report at this point in time on exactly how much damage was done. We do not expect that there is going to be very much, we do not expect that this army worm,as it is called 1 is going to be present in the Province for any great period of time.

I mi§ht also point out for the hon. member's information that the worm is a problem in Ontario and in ~lova Scctia­ or has been over the last couple of years. But to this date it has not been of any prominent nature in this Province with the exception of a very short span ten_years ago in the Province and again now presently. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, in view that the minister indicated that this threat originated . in,I think 1 Nova Scotia and Ontario, it has always mystified me 1 I have never been able to anderstand why it. is that ~ ewfoundlander= have to have our cars disinfected going across the Gulf to protect the mainland market, the cattle industry and the potato/vegetable industry,,their agricultural 1783

August 10 . 1979 Tape No. 707 DW - 3 f.<.R. PLIGHT; per se ag.ains -t any threats or any diseases that we might haVe in this Province. Yet it is not a reciprocal thing. They do not have to spray on the way ba~ • they can come back and bring in everything that is on the mainland by way of threat to our cattle industry and ,!=!~- · ·• agricultural. industry. I have never heard a question as to why thi.$ should be.

I am wondering i£ in view-·of this 1 and in view of other things that has happened in this Province 1 is the minister prepared to Put into effect now a programme that would give us the same protection that we are apparently being demanded of by our counte:z:pa.rts on the mainland? MR. SPEAKER <snms): The hen. minister. MR. J. GOUDIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to address the first p.art of the hon. member's question, he suqgested that t.his infestation originated in Ontario and Nova Scotia.

I am not sure if that is actually true: there is a problem in Ontario and Nova Scotia 1 so it is quite possible with people travelling back and forth that the army worm di!i come from there to this part of the Province. 1784 •·

August 10, 1979 Tape 708 EC - 1 MR. GOUDIE: In relation to his suggestion on not only the inspection but the washing or purifying-or whatever process you want to call it- of vehicles and other commodities travelling back and forth, yes, we are looking at some improvements in the present system. I think there also has to be some improvements in the present system as it relates between the Island part of the Province and Labrador. There are some problems in that area as well, or could be some problems. There are not presently some problems with the shipment of vegetables, meat and so on.

So that whole area is being examined, and if it is necessary to bring in some stricter restraints on some of the activities than in the past, then I am certainly prepared to do so. MR. FLIGHT: HR. SPEAKER: (SiiiliiiS) member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A final supplementary, the hon. the I.want to get the minister on record and to ask point-blank, Is he prepared to insist that cars coming from the Mainland as of now will go through ~~e same procedure as cars going to the Mainland from Newfoundland?

In other words, bluntly, Will he insist that the cars coming in will be disinfected the same way that the cars going out must be disinfected? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, we are looking at exactly that now. How soon we could i>ring this into effect, I am not sure, but if it can be instituted quickly then I am prepared to do that, but there has to be some analysis first, I think, of costs and budgetary allowances right now. Certainly, the safety factor is the largest consideration here, I think.

As I say, we are analysing the situation and if it has to be done, it will be done as quickly as possible. 1785

August 10, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Si1111llS) MR. BENNE'I'l': Tape 708 EC - 2 The hon. the member for St. Barbe. Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the hon. the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Morgan) concerning the harvesting of burnt•over timber in Central Newfoundland. The hon. minister undoubtedly is aware that we have a considerable amount of unemployment, so my question, Sir, is, Could you give some ballpa..dc date for harvesting to start on the burnt-over area? And will small, portable sawmills be encouraged to participate? MR. SPEAKER: Forests. MR. MORGAN: The hon. the Minister of Lands and Mr.

Speaker, we are presently reviewing all possible means of salvaging not only the timber damaged by fire but also timber stands damaged by the budworm, and I am hoping to be in a position to announce to the House 1 possibly next week 1 the plans we have in that regard. MR • .SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: The hon. the member for Bonavi.sta North. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Windsor), but since he is out,again I will direct it to the Premier. I would like to thank the Premier very much for getting process of applications underway. PREMIER PECKFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. STIRLING: Thank you very much, because one of my constituents yesterday was given an application and I know it was the Premier's intervention that did it. But does the Premier know- and I want to give him a chance to respond - does the Premier know that applications are being refused to members of the House of Assembly? We have to get the name of the person and refer the name to the housing group and then the application goes back. Is the Premier aware of that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, number one, I was not aware of that at all and I will address myself to that in a second. 1.786

August 10, 1979 Tape 708 EC - 3 PREMIER PECI<FORO: The day before yeste~ay, 700 information packages were mailed out to the 700 people who had left their names or who bad inquired or wanted application forms; so eve:r::y one of the 700 should either have it already or it is in the mail to theln. 1\nd the application forms have gone to the Gander, Marys town, Goose Bay 1 Grand Falls 1 Stephen ville, Corner Brook and Labrador City off ices so that t;he people in those areas who are served by those offices can get their application forms from those regional offices so they do not have to do everything through the members and the great St.

John's of#ce, they can get it from the regional of-fices out around. We are t:r::ying to respond as quickly as we can, so all that is in hand and all the application forms are reaci¥ to go. I was not aware that members of the House of Assembly cannot get ap_pllcation fo%111S. In other wordS, members of the Hous.e of Assembly would get some forms u1 case constituents came to their offices or whatever and then they would give it out from there. And if that is the case, we will see if we can change that within the next few hours. MR. STIRLING: Thank you very much. A supplementary. 1787

Auqust 10,1979 Tape No. 709 AH-1 MR. SPE.lUCER: (Simms) A supplementary. The hen. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: I am sure the Premier cannot be aware of a couple of ather things in these regulations that he might want to change. Is he aware,for example 1 that one of the requirements is that it must be sixty-five per cent completed and occupied,and yet another requlation says that the applicant must reside in the home for a period of two years to be entitled to the full amount of . assistance? I had the impression that the full amount of assistance is going to be available up front.

Does this indicate that you will give the person the full amount of assistance and then if the person sells two years later you are going to try and recover it? Because it indicates that if the House were sold it would be prorated so there is some indication that he is going to be able to get the full amount but then not allowed to get the full amount. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, with all due respect to the hon. member,and I know he is serious and genuine in asking his question,! think the detail like that,the hon. member should either see me personally about it or write and make a case for changing that kind of requirement that is in the application or whatever.

But I do not think it is necessarily the subject matter of the Question Period, but I would be willing to discuss it with the hon. member afterwards or if he wants to drop me a note on it today or Monday and make a case for changing that kind of a rule ~or whatever reasons,then I would be only too happy to investigate and look into it and see whether,in fact, such changes were legitimate and should be made. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPE.lUCER: The hen. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary. A final supplementary.

I am sure the Premier is aware that many of the people they want to apply this too, the people e~ing under $10,000 1 cannot get the full kind of mortgage that is 1788

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 709 AH-2 MR. STIRLING: available. Would he give some consideration, because it is a very real hardship - the traditional way that Newfoundlanders have built l:}ouses is to build as you go and a lot of people that he wants to help 1 the under $10,000, have started - AN HON .MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: $1,500. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: How much? Under $10,000 in order to get the The full amount? Well $1,500 was what we were announcing as a programme and you have to be earning under $10 ,000 to get the $1,500. The rest is one of those little details that the Premier refers to.

There is a lot of confusion among these people. &'I Hm<. MEMBER: This would make you confused. MR. STIRLING: It is very confusing. I wonder if the Premier would consider in these cases instead of having an August lst date and then all the procedures, would he take a look at these houses that were actually started in 1979 that are going on a pay as you go basis - the people who really need it most, the earning under $10,000 people - would he consider making the effective date anytime in 1979? MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I would not.

You know, you have got to have a cutoff date. You cannot do it for certain classes and not do it for other classes. It is budgeted, given a certain number of applications from August lst onward and it would cause financial problems as well and I really do not know if you would be getting yourself out of the problem or just digging a hole for yourself. I appreciate what the hon. member is saying: There has to be a start and there has to be a finish. There is a start now on August lst and I 1~ould like to leave it there.

On the other issue, I ~tould be willing to pursue it with the hen. member or pursue the issue and the problem with hil:l next week. 1789

Auqust 10,1979 Tape No. 709 AH-3 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The bon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry) arising out off his Ministerial Statement this morning on the mini hydro project in the Roddickton area. I wander if the minister would tell the House what the anticipated cost of the project is1 I do not believe it was in the statement.! just read it through briefly. And how many people might be employed in the construction of the hydro electric turbine at the peak period? MR. SPEAKER: Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: The hon.

Minister of Mr. Speaker, the total amount available for the study of the potential sites and for construction of the project is $1.2 mil ~on. I do not have the exact breakdown. I will obtain how much was spent on the study. The bulk of that would be available for construction but obviously it would be hoped to bring it in as cheaply as possible because the whole name of the game here is to find out just how economic a small hydro site can be1 so that to a certain extent it is an experiment and an experiment being carried out in order to determine just how costly this type of project will turn out to be. MR.

RIDEOUT: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary. The I thank the minister. The minister did not give any indication of the number of people who might be employed during the construction stage. Would the minister undertake to let me know? The supplementary then, Mr. Speaker: Does the minister anticipate that the cost of -electricity to the consumer 1790

August 10, 1979 Tape 710 PK - 1 Mr. Rideout: in that area as a result of coming onstream of this experimental project might be loweredr because, Sir, they are now, of course, paying the higher diesel rate than the hydro rate. Is there any anticipation that the cost to the consumer will eventually go down and they would go on the hydro rate? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Again it is too early to say.

And I would not have expectations created that this will occur because it is an experimental project to determine just how cheaply or how expensively this type of energy source 'can be developed. So until it is built - it is a demonstration project- we will not know exactly at what mil rate this type of small energy source will come in at, and therefore I do not want to have any expectations created that this may lead to a reduction in cost to consumers in that particular area. It will lead to an improvement in the Provincial position as far as the reliance upon diesel fuel is concerned. MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER (SIMMS) : LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr, Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. member for Mr. Speaker, if it is final I will have to put two questions to the han. gentleman. The hon. gentleman should know by now, I put the question to him earlier this morning when he was announcing the project,which I agree with because the hon. gentleman was not in the House when I was advocating that the course we should be taking is the small rivers and streams. MR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: I heard it, You heard it? Well then the han. gentleman knows that I agree with his announcement.

But the hon. gentleman should kno~ if they are going to use the low head turbine concept or will it be just a conventional type. In this pilot project, is the hon. gentleman going to take advantage of the new technology, or will it be just the conventional type generator? And also would the hon. gentleman indicate 1.791.

August 10, 1979 Tape 710 PK ~ 2 Mr. Neary: in his answer to me, over the long haul, and I detected this in his last answer there about the price of oil, over the long haul the cost of electricity will catch up and probably pass the hydro that will he developed in Roddicton because of the increased price of oil over the long haul. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Again, Mr. Speaker, since these are obviously low head streams it will be necessary to have low head turbines in order to. generate the electricity from them.

As far as what specific turbines, which specific designs will be used 1 that will be the subject of bids and the normal bidding process. MR. NEARY: Is Eddy going to get a crack at that? MR. BARRY: He can put a bid in, let us put it that way, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. BARRY: As far as the projected cost of petroleum products is concerned,! would not hazard a guess, Mr. Speaker, as to where we are going to be. We have seen Mr. Carter's energy secretary upon his retirement indicate that in his opinion it was going to double over the next five years.

I have seen other figures indicating that was a moderate assumption and that it was in fact going to triple, all of which is going to have a very serious impact upon electricity prices, not as much in Newfoundland as in some other places which are 100 per cent 1 virtually 1 dependent upon diesel fuel. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: for Burgee ~Bay d'Espoir. Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. As a matter of privilege, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of privilege, the hon. member 1792

August 10, 1979 Tape 710 pi( - 3 MR. SIMMoNS: It arise out of a matte;r raised earlier by my collague, but it is another distinct matter of privilege. My colleague fejr Grand Bank (Mr, Thoms! indi~;:ated to the House that the retQarks attributed to h.im in The Daily News this morning were not rE~~Darks that he had made. During the course of his· speaking to the point of priv.ilege 1 it was construed by a number of members across the House that I had made the r.emark attributed to the member for Grand Bank, the remark that "a charge that the RCMP had been hustling. " Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have since had an opportunity to obtain Hansard and I direct Mr. Speaker's attention to page 1682 in Hansard, and in putting a question to the Minister of JUstice (.Mr. ottenheimer) I

preambled by saying that "there is the matter of alleged hustling as an issue here. " And then in my question, I asked him would he undertake to initiate, and I quote, "To initiate whatever kind of enquiry is requ;ired to deteru~ine the substance of these charges, these allegations, 1793

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 711 SD - 1 MR. R. S IM!-!ONS : and more importantly, to ensure that the practice does not continue if, indeed, it is ongoing. 11 I distinctly and very carefully, Mr. Speaker, used the tez111 the qualifier • alleged: I , Mr.

Speaker, have great confidence in and respect for the RCMP and I would not consciously do anythina to undermine their role or effectiveness Alld my concern yesterday in putting the question was based on a couple of examples, one of which I gave during Question Period, a case of a young ma=ied woman,about 30, who came to me some months ago saying that she had been accosted three times during the one evening by an RCMP officer. She was alone at the time and he was alone at the time. At no time did he ask her for identification or licence or whatever.

He did engage in some casual conversation, asked her · what she was doing later and that kind of thing. Now, Hr. Speaker, I do not want to do anything to undermine the effectiveness of the RCMP. My concern in asking the question, the reason for asking it had to do with a concern that perhaps certain members of ~~e Force may, themselves, be undermining the Force's effectiveness and it was in that spirit that I asked the question. I did not charge hustling. I gave an example of alleged hustling and asked the minister would he pursue it.

I just wanted to raise that point which may not be a matter of privilege so much as a matter of explanation but I thank Mr. Speaker for his indulgence. l4R. SPEAI<ER: (Simms) To the points of privilege , before moving on,if I might with respect to the point of privilege raised by the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms), and I believe the same ruling would apply in the case of the point of privilege raised by the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. K. Simmons) 1 having had the opportunity to check some references 1 and there are many prece dents set for this particular 1.794

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 711 so - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) type of situation 7 I woulC. have to rule that there does not exist a point of privilege as such but that the non. members have taken the opportunity to explain and clarify remarks that have been attributed to them. AliSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Consumer Af~airs and Environment. MS. H. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to answer a question tabled by the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) on the Order Paper of July 20th.

And the question was, "What are the monthly totals paid to E.P.A. or reimbursed to workers to and from Labrador since January 1, 1977 under the scheme to reduce fares for residents of Labrador?" I would like to inform the hon. member that this does not come under the jurisdiction of my department.

I think it would rather be the Oeparment of Transportation and Communications, although I have inquired and I have been informed that government does pay a percentage of fares for the residents of Labrador travelling forth and back in a form of a block of money payable to E.P .A. and that as of April 78-79 that the amount of $190,000 was paid to E.P.A. But for further particulars, I would prefer that the hon. member check with the Deparment of MR. S • NEARY : (Inaudible) MS • H. NEWHOOK: No, you would refer to the Hinister of the Department of Transportation and Communications (Mr. c.

Brett) to give you more particulars on it. i1R. SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGAN : The hen. Minister of Land and Forests. Mr. Speaker, I wish to answer a question appearing on the Order Paper of Thursday, July 26th, Question llo. 16, placed there by my friend from LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) _. 1795

Au.qust 10, 1979 Tape No. 711 so - 3 MR. J. WRGAN: H.e was asking that this dep<lrtment tabl.e the agr~t between the Depi!Ztment of Lands and Forests and Omega Construction covering leasing of Hangar 21 at Gazld.~ aixport. The answer, Mr. speaker, is· we have no agreement between this department and Ollleqa or a.nyone else regarding rentinq of a banqar at Gander ai:tport k110wn as the Al.lied Hangar. MR. SPEAKER: (Si.lluns) The han. Minister of Pub.lic WorkS and Services. MR. H. YOUNG; Mr. Speaker, I would like to give answer to a quJaStion ask.ed by the hon. member for LaPolle (Mr. Neaey) on August 6th.

The question was "info:r::mation concerning a special telephone system connecting Newfo~clland Information services to various newsrooms throughOut the Province " 1.796

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 712 NM - l MR. YOUNG: The answer to part (a): Newfoundland Information Services operates a Vucom system which transmits via wire press releases to the various daily media in the Province. This system is a modernized version of the old TWX equipment which was originally installed at Information Services. The answer to these questions are quite long, Mr. Speaker, and it is unfortunate that the hon. member has - these questions were answered mostly at the committee and the hon. member decided to boycott these or he would have had his information. MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SIMMONS: That is a point of privilege. MR. NEARY: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentle.man, Sir, in answering a question that I put on the Order Paper just made a statement that is unparliamentary, untrue and could only lower the decorum of this House and I ask Your Honour to ask the han. gentleman to withdraw the statement~ I did not boycott the meetings of the committee. Granted 1 I did not - AN HON. MEMBER: You were not a member of the committees. MR. NEARY: I was not a member.

I was not a member of any of these committee, Sir, and I ask Your Honour to ask the han. gentleman to withdraw that remark, Sir; it is unparliamentary. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is neither a point of order nor a point of privilege. The hon. the minister was expressing his own particular opinion with respect to a certain observation that he made with respect to the operations of the Committee and it is not a point of order at all, or a point of privilege. 1797

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 712 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: To the point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : To the point of order, the hen. member for the Straits of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: I will be very brief, Mr. Speaker, What the Minister of Public Works (Mr.

Young) did 1 I think 1 was in effect in giving an answer -~he rose and gave an answer to a question of which notice had been given and this is the appropriate place for him to do it and the proper thing for him to answer a question - but, Sir, in so doing he broke the rule of the House which says a minister giving an answer shall not enter into debate, just as a member asking a question will not enter into debate. And what he did was do that and the reason for the rule is shown and is shown to be quite an exemplary rule because by so doing he touched off a debate.

I think what he attempted to do1 wittingly or not, and knowing the minister it ~y well have been unwitting 1 was to- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: - try to take a sly crack at the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I do not think this is the place to do it. I think if he wants to take a crack at the member for LaPoile let him do it in debate where there can be the back and forth. MR. NEARY: Right. MR. ROBERTS: But to use the answer portion of the Order Paper to enter into debate, Sir, that is wrong and therefore there is a point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order raised 1 I would rule there does not exist a point of. order but simply a difference of opinion between both hen. members. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Justice. 1798

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 712 NM - 3 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Han. members will recall that yesterday there were some questions asked by hon. members opposite, by two or three of them I think, with respect to law enforcement, Corner Brook, and this arose as well out of some discussions in the Estimates Committee. I have the information now which I will pass on to hon. members.

A few statistics which might be of interest: For the past seven months of this year as compared with the same period in 1978 - so the pas~ seven months of this year as compared with the same period in 1978- impaired driver and refusal to take breat~alizer. test in the '78 period- 138, in the '79 period -156. Out in the Corner Brook area, hazardous moving violations 1 in the '78 period- 1,27S, in the '79 ~~~d- 1,360; injury in motor vehicle accidents '78- 28; in 1979- 36.

In the past seven months 1 an average - obviously you cannot check half a vehicle- but the average is 24.5 vehciles per night between 8:00 P.M. and 4:00 A.M. on that shift. I think this is very significant, I think this is a most significant: In the past forty months,two persons have been killed in motor vehcile accidents in that area - in the past forty months two people killed in motor vehicle accidents. Prior to that 1 four people per year were killed. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear: MR. OTTENHEIMER: So I think that that - I am not here to interpret the statistics,but I think that they are quite important.

Also insurance adjusters in the area report a thirty to forty per cent reduction in motor vehicle accident claims in the past few years. They are unaware at this time of any particular motorist having been checked two or three times during the night, unaware 1799

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 713 DW- 1 MR. OTTENHJ!:IMER: of any particular person. If an hen. member has - AN HON • MEMBER: Specifics. MR. OTTENHEL'mR: - ~es. - a specific name, date or some such thing they can give it to me, they can give it directly to RCMP1 but they are unaware at this time of any such occurance. I should point out as well that the matter of checking of vehicles, including at night, including after midnight is a long established investigative technique.

During those periods members of the force ar~ expected to ask as much information as is reasonable and practicable,and it is realized that drivers do not have to answer this information but at times it is asked 1 inc1Uding the name of the driver, of passengers and destinab.ons, some of the reasons for this are to help the police officers in identifying criminals 1 who also travel by car, to locate wanted persons,including runaway children,and at times to locate tourists or non-Newfoundland residents whom they are looking for - MR. POBERTS : You cannot be serious. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: I am reporting, I am giving the answer to the question which I said I would. They understand that people do not have to answer these questions. However, I will point out what I think is t.'le very significant statistic which is available and that is during the past forty months two people killed and before that in motor vehicles accidents the four persons per year was the number.

So, as I say, if a person, or any hon. member or anybody with a specific incident or a person or a date or that type of thing 1 if they wish to give it to me privately or if they wish bo ask the RCMP themselves 1 certainly they ·will be able to look into it. But they are not a~are now of a person being stopped 1 say, three times in one particular eveming. 1800

ll.ugust 10, 1979 MR. S. NEARY: Port awe Basques. MR. O'M'ENHEIMER: Tape ~o. 713 nw - 2 You do not have No , I do not know. As I said, I only know of Corner Brook 1 not Port Awe Basques. MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) Order, please! The hon. the Premier. PREMIER. PECKFORD: :tt. Speaker, I would like to-anSwer a question from the member for Bonavista North about the application forms to hon. members of the House. Within fifteen minutes there will be 200 applications delivered to ~the House of Assembly for members • SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: And next there will be another delivery to the Opposition office to ensure that you have sufficient application forms. SOME HON. !-!EMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Hear, hear! Order, please! On behalf of all hon. members~-, I would like to welcome to the gallery today the ~ayor of Musgravetown, Mr. Alfred Saint. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Espoir. ~I R. R. SIMMONS: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Burgee -Bay d' Mr. Speaker, I rise to say that I am dissatisfied with- the answer given by the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer) in response to my question of yesterday 1 and•I wish to debate it on the next Late Show. MR. SPEAKER: t".R. S. NEARY: The hen. member for LaPoile. 11r. Speaker, I would like to give notice that I ~ dissatisfied also with the answers that I asked yesterdav of the hor.. Minister of Just:.ce in connection with the stopping of cars in Western Newfoundland and I want to join with my colleague and reinforce what'he has to say on the next Late Show. 1801.

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 713 OW - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY : :m. W. MARSRJ\LL: Order 27, Bill No. 38. MOtion, the hon. Minister of Finance to introduce a !:lill, "An Aot Respecting An Increase In certain Pensions," carried . (Bill No. 38) On motion, 3~1 No . 38 read a first time,ordered read a second time on tomorrow. M.'l.. W. MARSHALL: Order, 28 , Bill No . 36. MR. SPEAKER (Si.mJns) : xotio n, the hon. :-linister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act TO Enable Oni!und Limited To Become A Federal Corporation." (Bill No. 36) • Is it the pleasure of the House the hon.

Minister of Justice shall have leave to i .ntroduce the said Bill? !oUt. ROBERTS: The hon. member ~or the Strait of aelle Isle. :tr. Speaker, tbis is not a ce.batable matter and I do not intend to debate it and I am not at all sure exactly what should be don e but I do want to make sure that what is done is pro?er. The Conflict of Interest Act has a requirement in section (17), I believe it is section (17), that no ~er shall vote on any matter in which he has an interes t enat is comparable eo the interest which we must declare . • 1802

August 10, 1979 Tape 714 EC - l MR. ROBERrS: This bill is, as I understand it, a bill to enable a particular corporation to become a federal corporation. I t.'link it is a routine matter, but the fact remains that I, in rrq professional capacity as a member of the Bar, have from time to time acted in behalf of this corporation, Unifund Limited. And I am not sure what the procedure is - I am not sure whether we voted first reading or not - but it would obviously be improper for me to vote its second reading but I simply wish to declare the interest and place myself in the hands of the House.

I know my friend from Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling), who I believe is an officer of Unifund Limited, the corporation, is in a similar position. He may wish to say something or he may wish to let what I say speak for him. Simply, I wish to raise the matter. It is not often we get what amounts to a private bill in the House. I do have what amounts to a personal and pecuniary interest in Unifund Limited in that I have acted for them from time to time, I may say 1 against other members of the House who have brought claims against them, among others. MR . STIRLING: HR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker.

The hon. the member for Bonavista North. Unifund Limited is a subsidiary of Johnson Insurance Limited, and I have declared in my conflict of interest statement that I am an employee of Johnson Insurance Limited and 1 therefore, I am following eounsel in suggesting that the only way that I can record that I am not speaking or voting on this matter is to do it in this manner. MR. SPEAKER: So taken notice of. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Enable Unifund Limited To Become A Federal Corporation," (Bill No. 36) , read .,. first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 29.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Utilities Act," (Bill :'lo. 49), carr ied. On motion, Bill No. 49, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 1803

August 10, 1979 Tape 714 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Motion 3o. Motion, the hen. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. Jchn' s Act," (Bill No. 41) 1 carried. on motion, Bill No. 41, read a first ti!l1e, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 31. Motion, the hon. the Premier to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Armistice Day Act," (Bill No. 48), carried. On motion, Bill No. 48, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 32.

Motion the hon. the Mini.ster of Consumer AffairS and Environment to introduce a bill, "An Act To Prevent Discrimination Against Blind Persons," (Bill No. 421, carried. On motion, Bill No. 42, read a first time,. ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. MABSHALL: Motion 33. Motion the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend Fw::ther The Government - British Newfoundland Corporation Limited N. M. Rothschild & Sons (Supplemental Agreement) Act, 1978," (Bill No. 43), carried. On lD:)tion, Bill No. 43, read a first time , orde:red read a second time on tomorrow. 1804

August 10,1979 MR. SPEAICER: (Simms) Bill No. 26. Burqeo-Bay D'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Tape No. 715 Continued debate on The hon. member for Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collinsl in talkinq about this bill raised certain matters having to do with what he called the threat of separation in Labrador. I have since had a chance to check the Hansard for yesterday and that is what he did indeed call it, a threat of separation, a threat of Labrador separation, he said.

And then he went on to say that the attitude of separation had come through many times in debate in the House and it has been so persistent that - I quote him, "Has been so persistent that I do not think it is too stronq to say that there has been a stated or certainly an implied threat of separation brought forward time and time again." And then the minister went on to point out that six members had represented Labrador in the House since his time here and that only two had brought up this clearly stated threat to separation, as he chooses to call it and he pointed out that both these people sat on this side of the House.

Now, Mr. Speaker, on a matter of information,first of all,! can recall at least three people who brought up ~~is matter, at least four people indeed, and to their credit they have all sat on this side of the House. To their credit they have all sat, all four of them, the former member for Labrador South, Mr.Martin, the former member for Eagle River, the old Eagle River seat, Mr. Strachan, the present member for Eagle River, (Mr. Hiscock), the present member for Torngat r~ountains (Mr.Wa=en). All four of them have brought up this possibility of separation. To their credit they have all had the courage to do so.

The member for ~e~ihek (Mr.Walsh) has n~t had an opportunity to address himself in this debate and knowing him as I do I fully expect he will address himself to the subject. The member for Naskaupi 1805

August 10,1979 Tape No. 715 AH-2 MR. SIMMONS: (Mr.Goudie) I expect will give voice to it. Without putting words in his mouth,I believe to some extent he has over the years in this House but we will wait and see what he has to say in response to the latest exchange on this particular subject. But to the credit of the four members I have mentioned, they have all had the courage, they have not been fettered by partisan stances, they have had the guts, the courage, the intestinal fortitude to get up and speak the reality as it · exists. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collinsl yesterday - and I want to quote him again from Hansard said this and I quote, "There has been a stated threat and I would say that this is an effective way of operating. And we can only look to Quebec and see how effective it is if one wants to get benefits from a central organization " and in the case of Quebec it is a central government and in the case of Newfoundland it would be the government here on the Island part of the Province, "that is an effective way of achieving an end." The Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) Mr.

Speaker, yesterday quite openly charged that the reason these members over here had made that statement and the reason others in Labrador were making the statement - ! only wish the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) were in the House. I assume he is wit~in hearing of my voice. He was here a moment ago. I have no choice but to pursue it at this time because I just have a half hour or so in which to make the point. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) yesterday charged that this whole thing is contrived for partisan reasons. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I want to lay one on him because he is forgetting something very important, i1e is forgetting that over the last two years this concern has mushroomed. Virtually everybody who has visited Labrador has voi~ed this concern. Only last week I happened to get on a plane in Deer Lake,an airPlane coming out off Labrador and there was a salesman on the plane from St. John's and I sat with him, an acquaintance 1806

Au.gust 10,1979 Tape No. 715 AH-3 MR. SIMMONS: of mine , and in no time at all he said, "Look it was my first visit to Labrador. :t could not believe what t heard." He said, the aUenation there. The alienation. He said they talk abOut us as foreigners. They do not relate to us at all, the Island people. And he elaborated on the alienation in Labrador. alienation , Mr. speaker? .11R. J • CAa'l'ER: AN B:ON • .MEMBER: MR. SI~NS: lines now. Was he the only one who has sensed t.'!.at Was he the only one? 1807 RUbbish • (Inaudible) DO not spOil my punch

August 10, 1979 Tape 716 MR. SIMMONS: The member for St. North (Mr. Carter} says "I speak rubbish". First of all he knows what rubbish is. He is an expert at rubbish, Mr. Speaker. He is an expert at rubbish. But if he tells me I speak rubbish, I want him to listen for a moment because a couple of other people have said the same thing I am saying. And if he thinks it is rubbish I hope he will have the courage to tell these other people to their faces that what they say is rubbish. PK - 1 to Labrador. I have just told him about the salesman who went Well, Mr.

Speaker, there was another individual I say to the member for St.

John's North - there was another individual who went to Labrador in the last couple of years, who travelled the Coast of Labrador right to Nain and had an opportunity for the first time to go into these small communities, he too sensed the alienation, he is a person who normally does not speak out on these issues, he is a person who normally does not address himself to this kind of issue at all, but he felt it so strongly, he saw it as such a potentially divisive force that he came back and made a public statement on the issue, an unprecedented public statement.

And, of course, as han. members will know,I am talking about the Lieutenant-Governor. AN HON. MEMBER: Rubbish is it? MR. SIMMONS: I am talking about the Lieutenant-Governor. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Rubbish! Rubbish! MR. J. CARTER: Will the member give way - MR. SIMMONS: The member for St. John's North will have adequate opportunity in this debate, adequate opportunity. I am sure when he rises he will have some silly poem or some even sillier prose which may relate to nothing but he will think it is important any way, so we will give him a half hour to say,to mouth his important trivialities. Mr.

Speaker, I am not interested in a closed mind, no, Mr. Speaker. I am not interested in a silly charge that somehow 1808

August 10, 1979 Tape 716 PK .,. 2 Mr. Simmons: this whole thing is for partisan reasons, I am not interested, Mr. Speaker, in people playing with the legitimate concerns and aspirations of the Labrador people. I am not interested in that 1 Mr. speaker, That is what the member forst, John's North would like to think. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SDIMONS: No~, Mr. Speaker, I think what happ~ed yesterday is one of the biggest insults ever perpetrated on part of our people, in this case the whole Labrador population. An insult without precedent. And the member for St. John's North (.Mr.

Carterl would be well-advised not to be so verbal on this, to back away from it, because it is going to become an increasing embarrassment to his administration. I know I have faith that when the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) rises he will disassociate himself from it. He will disassociate himself from it, either that or he had better disassociate himself from some remarks that he has reported on here. Because the remarks that the member has quoted here - in this one, I am sorry - the remarks that are recorded here and attributed to the member for Naskaupi (.Mr.

Goudie) do not at all reflect what the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) said yesterday, indeed the member is in very direct contradiction, the member happens to feel,if we go by his words of a year ago, that there is some alienation. And that it is not all politically contrived by a bunch of Liberals on this side of the House. I am sorry. MR. GOUDIE: the debate. MR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible) has already spoken in The minister has already spoken? Well, in that instance I would give the Minister five minutes of my time to make his position clear on it. MR. GOUDIE: During the Committee. MR.

SIMMONS: The minister from Goose Bay undertakes during Committee, Mr. Speaker, to address himself to this question. I will look forward 1809

August 10, 1979 Tape 716 PK - 3 Mr. Silmnons.: to what he has to say, because there is a vezy real contradxctton ~tween what the miru:ster said before the Labrador <;.esources i\,dv±sory Council a year or so ago, and what the Minister of Fi:nance ())r. CoUinsJ said yesterday. And for the sake of the member for Nasl<aupi {l>lr . Goudie}, I am glad for that difference eecause O.e knows Labrador, and ! ca,n write off •.olhat the J>!inister of Finance sai'd to his ignorance.

I can write it off to the J?henomenon that I had mentioned earlier, that the Minister of Finance yeste rday demonstrated that: he knows just as much. about Labrac;l.or as !l.e knows about F .i::nance. aut 1 1-lr. Speaker, I hope that every person living :i:n La.Orador wi:ll have the opportunity, during the next day or so, to see in print or hear on radio or hear on television the remarks made oy the ~li'ni"Ster of Finance. 1810 ..

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 717 SD - l MR. R. SIMMONS : I hope they will hear it,then they will know why it is they have no priority in this government's scheme of things, then they will und.erstand, Mr. Speaker, why it is that virtually so little llas been done by this particular administratioil 1because this administration has, in kay positions people who do not understand Labl>ador, who want to treat it in a kind of paternalistic ~ooay, talk down to it, as the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) said yesterday, jump to insulting conclusions about the people, treat them as colonials of some sort.

I hope - SOME HON. MEMBERS : i>IR. R. SIMOONS: The Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, Oh! Oh! - they would like like to be Speaker, Mr. Speaker,but you did the job so much better. And between you, sir, and the member for st. John's North (Mr. J. Carter), I am certainly glad it is you. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. R. SIMMONS : Between you and the member for stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg), from experience, I can not tell you how glad I am it is you. MR. L. THOMS : l1R. R. SIMMONS : So are they on that side.

As a matter of fact, I am almost as glad it is not the member for Stephenville as the people on that side are glad it is not the member for Stephenville. MR. STAGG: (Inaudible) in a few minutes. MR. R. SIML'10NS: I am sure you will. I am sure you will. Can not wait to hear himself speak, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, I hope when the Premier goes to Labrador today, he will, in particular, 181:1

August lO, 1979 Tape Nd. 717 SD - 2 MR. R. SIMOONS: disassociate himself from what the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) said yesterday, that absolute insulting diatribe, the like of which you would never expect to hear from a mature man. A shame, an abso~ute shame and the frightfu~ possibility is that he has charged that the people of Labrador were holding the Island at ransom. The frightful ­ possibility is that that despicable charge might be the government's position.

Is he speaking for himself~ Is he speaking as a person who has probably not been beyond the overpass out here or is he speaking far the government of the Province? Is he reflecting the views of the member for Menihek (Mr. P. Wa~sh) ? I do not think so. I hope not.

Well, as the ~Iinister of Finance, I would think he speaks for government.But then again,! was in committee the other day with him and I tried to get some answers from him on another issue and, if he speaks for the government then the government has about six position on most things because during the course of a ten minute exchange, he gave about six different answers to the same question. The Minister of Finance, if he speaks for government on anything, demonstrates that the government has many, many positions on any given subject.

If it were the appropriate place, I would talk about the answers he gave on the St. John's Trotting Park. And I sat down after and I just went over it, the answers I got from him on the subject, and without debating the merits of the answers or who is right or who is wrong, the fact of the matter was that he gave us at least five or six different answers which were mutually exclusive answers, if this one was right, this one cou~d not also be right. And that is the nature of that particular minister.

Unfortunately, he leaves a lot of people confused but more important here, not only does it leave people confused, it leaves the whole population of Labrador thoroughly insulted, thoroughly insu~ted about a very, very major 1812

August 10 , 19 79 Tape No. 7l7 SD- 3 MR. R. SIMMONS: issue. I hope, Mr. Speaker, I have taken some time on this because I hope that there will be some response. Forget the name-calling I say to the member fo.;- St. John's North (Mr. J. carter) and let us respond in substance, respond in substance, let us know whether the Minister of Fina1:1ce (Dr. J. Collins) speaks for the government on this issue.

Does the government think tha~ it is all part of a daliJ:lerate partisan plot or did they recognize that there are some feelings of real alienation in Labrador that have to be attended to, tb.at have to be addressed if we are going to change things for the better in I,.abrador and in this Province? To reduce it to a comment that it is soJ:lehow a partisan issue is naivete, Mr. Speaker, in the extreme but not only naivete, if it were naivete you could excuse it, it is treach$ry as well, it is treachery as well, Mr.

Speaker, and treacihery tha.t can not go ·uncna.uenged., treachery that can not go unanswere.d for the sake of the future of this P:rovi.nce and the sake of the future of Labrador in particular, the treachery, Mr. Speaker, perpetrated on this House and on the people of Labrador by the Minister of Finance yesterday, that 1813

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 718 MR. SL~ONS: unspeakable, despicable, insulting treachery. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance had some other gems for us yesterday with his brilliant knowledge of NM - 1 MR. J. CARrER: MR. SIMMONS: Withdraw, that is most unparliamentary. If we could withdraw the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) we would solve a lot of our unparliamentary problems in the House. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance, (Dr. Collins) yesterday, charged that B_lt~CO::- n.ow thl:; is tho:_ _crowd, Mr.

Speaker, who wanted to forget during the election all about the past - "We are not talking about the past, we are looking into the eighties." Well 1the eighties were somewhat absent from the comments of the Minister from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), ~,d the Minister from St. John's South (Dr. Collins) yesterday, when they talked about BRINCO. And at one point the Minister of Finance said, "BRINCO deve.loped_ the Opper Churchill without any great benefit for Newfoundland." Now, Mr. Speaker, all of a sudden BRINCO is the villan~ BRINCO is the villan now, Mr. Speaker.

Private enterprise is the villan now,the Minister of Finance tells us. I thought it was the government. I thought it was those bad Liberals were the villans back there. They had better get their act together over there, Mr. Speaker. The member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SIMMONS: I am waiting. I am waiting. Mr. Speaker, yesterda:r the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) tells us it is that bad Liberal Government that caused all the problems with t he Opper Churchill. Now, t he Minister of Finance says i t is BRINCO, it is' private enterprise.

What is this a new platform in the step forward approach over there? Step forward or backward into socialism, is that what the Minister of Finance 1814

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 718 NM - 2 MR. SIMMONS: is advocating now, outright socialism. to do away with private enterprise? He tells us that the people of Newfoundland gave confidence in this Party to develop the Lower Churchill. Nonsense! Nonsense, Mr. Speaker! The people of Newfoundland 1 for one thing,are not socialists.

They might choose one party above another to govern, to provide their governmental structure, but that should never be construed that they want us to get involved in every facet of human activity and get involved and push out the private enterprise and begin doing clumsily what private enterprise can do better. And the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is stretching the point much too far when he suggests that a mandate to govern is a mandate to interfere, when he suggests that a mandate to govern is a mandate to supplant private enterprise where private enterprise can better do the job than government can.

He interprets much too freely, Mr. Speaker, when he suggests that the mandate to be the Government of this Province is a mandate to be the jack of all trades, however clumsily, however incompetently. Now, Mr. Speaker, finally before sitting down, just a word or two on the bill itself. Mr. Speaker, the - MR. STAGG: (Inaudible) on that bill (inaudible). MR. J. CARTER: (Inaudible) irrelevant. MR. SL'*iONS: I quite agree. I have spent the last twenty minutes, Mr. Speaker, rebutting some of the totally irrelevant points raised by the Minister of Finance. I quite agree, Mr. Speaker, that they were irrelevant.

I do not argue that point. I agree with the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), and the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter), that what the Miniter of Finance (Dr. Collins) had to say about this bill was totally irrelevant. But it was also shameful and it had to be responded to, Mr. Speaker, or else it would get into the record, without challenge, Of course,it was irrelevant, of course, it had nothing to do with the bill, I am the first to admit that. I am the first to admit that for the past twenty minutes I have been irrelev~•t, but no more irrelevant than the Minister of Finance, 1815

August 10, 1979 Tape No . 71.8 NM - 3 MR. SIMMONS • and I hope far less shameful in my re~~~arks than the Minister of Finance's remarks have been. MR. STAGG: Irrelevant f or seven years. MR. SIMMONS: I daresay, Mr. Speaker, that if I stood here and talked forever I could find nothing a.s insulting to say about the peaple of Labrador as he said even if I wanted to. It is not my desire. I could find nothing as shameful, nothing as low down to say about the people of Labrador as he said. I make no apologies to this H.ouse, Mr.

Speaker, that I have had to be irrelevant for twenty minutes to defend some people who have been maligned !>y a person in high office. AN HON. MEMBER: Maiden speech. MR. SIMMO~S: I make no apology for that at all, absolutely no apology for that, Mr. Speaker, if it takes another twenty minutes, another hour to do so. Go back I say to the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. warren) . and tel.l them what happens 181'6

August 10, 1979 Tape 719 EC - 1 MR. SIMMONS: when we talk about Labrador in this House. The member for st. John's East (Mr. Marshall) finds it very funny, tell the people of Labrador. They do not understand the problem that exists up there. They have never been there except perhaps to play hockey one night. MR. FLIGHT: Or fish. MR. SIMHONS: Or fish. And they do not run into too many native Labradorians in there in those fish camps - not too many. 1-IR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) the hon. member (inaudible) • MR. SIMMONS: We are hitting nerves over there now, Mr. Speaker. I finally proved that the member for St.

John's East (Mr. Marshall) has a nerve or two. I suspected he may have none at all. Mr. Speaker, the Lea~r of the Opposition in the last day or so has given our position on the bill. The government spokesmen have given various positions on the bill. The member for St. John's East says we should blame the Liberals, the member for St. John's South (Dr. J. Collins) says we should blame BRINCO and he also says we should blame the Labradorians, by the way.

So there are three or four villains over there now, Liberals , BRINCO and Labrador are the villains so far, and I am sure as other government spokesmen speak we will hear about other villains. Mr. Speaker, I, for my part,will want to support this bill, whatever it does. It certainly will launch another feasibility study and 7 I suppose,we should never be against feasibilities, we should never be against study. I would not want to be on the record as against study, Mr. Speaker. This is a study bill, another stalling motion.

We cannot be against it because one of those days they will tell us we did not want the subject studied. Well, I want it studied, Mr. Speaker, because $110 million of my money have gone into it and I would like to know at least where that "N'ent. I would certainly like to have the matter studied. I cannot be against this particular bill, it is just a bill to study and let the record show that that is all it is. 1817

August 10, 1979 Tape 719 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: This does not do anything to get the Lower Churchill on stream any faster. Indeed, in effect, it has the effect of stalling - stalling a proposal tha~ we were told had a green light back in 1975, four and a half years ago. There is nothing in the bill that we can be particularly upset with, it is a bill to study. So let us study it - study it some more. And in the course of that, Mr. Speaker, and in the course of debate, let us have no more of this paternalistic, mischievous attitude about Labrador. I find that very, very disturbing, Mr.

Speaker, very, very insulting, and I would hope that someone on government side will rush to strike it from the record and so so pretty soon. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) The hon. the member for Stephenville. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. STAGG: Well, Mr. Speaker, I finally get the floor, and I am delighted to have it. I would like to. strike all the comments of the hon. member from the record, because as I was saying here from the background, he was irrelevant.

And certainly, if they could be struck from the record it would save us an awful lot of repetitive typing up in Hansard, because what the hon. member had to say was completely misconstruing what the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) had to say. And I will direct myself to that because he went on for forty-five minutes or a half hour, however long he had - it sounded like half a month - indicating that the Minister of Finance had made an attack on Labrador.

All the l'linister of Finance said, as I understood it, was that the :~inister of Finance deplored the tactics being used by the two members from Labrador, opposite who were bringing Separatism into this debate, and he deplored ~~ at as cheap politics and looking for a headline not unlike the type of headline that the member for Burgee - Bay d' Espoir (!1r. Simmons) continually searches out '"hen he gets into the record some ambiguous statement about the RCMP husUing women, and then gets up and tries to deny that i1e sai a it. That is t.i1e sort of thing that i1e is up to, :1r.

Speaker, looking for tne c.'leap neadline. 1818

Auqust 10,1979 Tape No. 720 AH-1 MR. STAGG: So he probably had one headline in that, I do not know. The press seem to give him headlines and it only encourages him. I cannot get any headlines myself, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to deal with the Leader of the Opposition and some of the statements that he made in his frenzied reply to some of the comments and the invitation to spealc that was given to him by our House Leader yesterday. It was frenzied.

He stood up and he was flushed, he was angry, that the Government House Leader could in any way suggest that the Leader of the Opposition had not deported himself properl~ or had not applied himself properly to the task of supporting our project when he was a man in authority in Ottawa. so I would like to deal with that. But before I do so I ~t say that - MR. STIRLING: Sit down. MR. F. B. ROWE: Shut up, I must say that these notes coming into me here, Mr. Speaker, fellows giving me suggestions, I have it all here'boys'. You do not have to give me any· suggestions, I have it all here.

I must say as I begin my speech here and am about to explode some of the comments made cby the Leader of the Opposition. I feel somewhat like I am defacing a museum or I am hitting a national monument because the man has been a legend in ~ewfoundland over the years.

But when he comes in here and he comes out with a statement suggesting to the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer) that we should study, get a constitutional lawyer to study whether a corridor through Quebec is in the national interest, when he suggests that, when he suggests that,! have to say, look deface a monument, hit an obelisk, you name it, I have got to do it because I am a Newfoundlander. I have got to ask where was the hon. gentleman from 1967 until 19791 Where was he, in Timbukto? Where was he? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! . 1819

August 10,1979 Tape No. 720 AH-2 MR. STAGG: Because the constitutional

interpretation of the BNA Act to make somet_~ing in the national interest- well, as far as I am concerned, the pipeline was declared to be in the national interest in the 1950s~ and there is nothing more in the national interest of Newfoundland than a corridor through Quebec or pressure, real pressure from the federal government on Quebec to make sure that Newfoundland gets a better deal on the Lower Churchill or the other rivers in Labrador than it had on the Upper Churchill.

And for the Leader of the Opposition to stand there and to make some sort of oblique reference, or to - not even to say mea-culpa,because apparently it never occured to him in all his twelve years in Ottawa that he should have somebody look into whether or not a corridor through Quebec was something that shoula be declared to be in the national interest. So I must say that it grieves me sore to have to do it but I must explode that for w~at it was~ it was tripe, it was a man trying to wiggle out, wiggle away f~ having abrogated his responsibility for twelve years.

I suggest to you, Mr.Speake~, that the hon. gentleman is quilty of putting forward the national interest of the Liberal party, the national interest of the Liberal party rather than the provincial interest of Newfoundland for the twelve years that he was in Ottawa. The national interest of the Liberal party was that you do not put a corridor through Quebec because if you do it, you enrage them and they all vote Social Credit or Separatist or something else,or even PC. That ~s the national interest of the Liberal party, that is why· is was not done.

So you cannot escape from it, it was not done for twelve years and the hoR. gentleman, the Leader of the Opposition cannot come into this House now and suggest that we should have a look at it. Our constitutional experts say - I am a constitutional expert as far as that goes, I say that it is in the national interest. I read Bora Laskin on many occasions, hard stuff. But at least I can read 1820

Auqust 10,1979 Tape t'lo. 720 AH-3 MR. STAGG.: the BNA Act and the BNA Act says that certain projects can be declared to be in the national interest. If this is not in the national interest there is nothinq in the national. interest. The JAwer Churchill and the rivers in Labrador would save this country billions of dollars in oil payments that they make,sort of in rilDS<Dl, to the Opec couttt:des, vene2:uela - well that is an opec coun .try.

All of these countries throuqhout the world are heldinq us to ransom.1 and the hon. gentl.ell!an · has to take his place as those who perpetrated it upon us and who stood by or sat by or travelled the world while we down he·re in Newfoundland were lookinq for sanebody to carry :1821

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 721 so - 1 MR. F. STAGG: the banner of Newfoundland in Ottawa and we did not have it. And I suggest to you that we do have them up in Ottawa now. SOME HON. HE.OmERS : Hear, hear. MR. F, STAGG: we have them in Ottawa now, we have got the men in Ottawa now who suggested in 1972, in the debate. - AN HON. l1EMBER: l1R. F. STAGG: It is worse. The hon. gentleman is going to have his chance. The hon. gentleman threatened me just now. The hon. gentleman from Port au Port (Mr. J. Hodder) said, if you speak, I am going to speak, the member from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. G.

Flight) is going to speak and everybody is going to speak, Well, I suggest to them - they should all speak, and they shculd all address themsalves to the position that I put forward, where was the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. D. Jamieson) when the Upper Churchill contract could have been renegotiated, when the Lower Churchill contract could have been - MR. J. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) HR. J . HODDER: About Port au Fort? Order, please! (Inaudible) and Port au Port (inaudible) in the national interest, why did they not do it? I-JR. F. STAGG: I declare it in the national interest.

The hon. gentleman was up there for twelve years, he did nothing and pretends he was ignorant about it. Well, maybe he was, maybe he was, if he was then I say the people of Newfoundland made a wonderful choice. They definitely made the right choice on June the 18th when they tossed them out and put us in. 9UME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. F. STAGG: And something else, Mr. Speaker, it is about people who get converted, they are calling us the born-again administration. There is only one man in this House who voted against Confedera~ion and that is the Leader of the Opposition. 1.822

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 721 SD - 2 MR. F. STAGG: And what happens once you vote against something and later you embrace it? Well, you embrace it too much. He is more Canadian than, I would say, Doug las Fraser. Is that the fellow's name, Mr. Canada, Douglas Fraser? More canadian than Douglas Fraser. He is more Canadian than Oouglas Fraser and I suggest to you that when he embraced Canada, he abandoned Newfoundland. Now, who are the Newfoundlanders who support this bill? Who are the Newfoundlanders that I respect who support this bill?

Well, the first one is probably the man who is responsible for my being here and responsible for an awful lot of us on this side being here, John Crosbie. John Crosbie is the man who is much maliqned by the members opposite. They would like to have us by not responding to the accuations against Mr. Crosbie or 'John' as I knew him, they would like for us to not reply so that somehow or other the people of Newfoundland wquld have the feeling that John Crosbie was not a patriot. John Crosbie is the greatest patriot that this Province will see in this half century. Aild I am going to suggest to you - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. F. STAGG: Hear, hear? Hear, hear, indeed~ I am going to read to you now from the Can~an Press 1972, June 27th, 1972, a long time ago .- then I am going to quote a little bit from Hansard - "Legislature shocked by agreement,• the Canadian Press said, "Finance and Economic Minister, John Crosbie, dropped a bombshell in the Newfoundland Legislature yesterday when he revealed that an agreement between Churchill Falls Labrador Corporation and Hydro Quebec said preference will be given to Quebec for personnel, services and equipment for the Churchill Falls Hydro project.

The agreement was signed during the previous Libe~a1 administration of Joseph Smallwood. Mr. Crosbie said a special liason committee had been set up with Quebec for recruitment of 1823

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 721 SD - 3 MR. F. STAGG: workers." And I was up there, I was up t.'lere working in Churchill Falls and I aaw them coming in. Fortunately, I had some French so I could get by. As a matter of fact 7 I had just enough French to help the member for Port au Port (Hr. J. Hodder)· get by as well. He was up there as well. SOME HON. MEHBE.RS : Hear, hear ! i<!R. F. STAGG: You neecl French is some obscure places. Mr. crosbie said a special liaison committee had been set up, yes. "The information was in direct contradiction of reports issued by MI.

Smallwood's administration that Newfoundlanders would have preference and that Newfoundlandmaterials would certainly be used wherever possible:' Mr. Crosbie said the people of Newfoundland should have been given the information. I will skip a paragraph now Mr.

Crosbie said, "It would be better for the Lower Churchill River to run into the sea forever than for ·"the Province to agree to terms-similar to those for harnessing the Upper Churchill•" . ·'And here this is seven years later, it is seven years later ~and the Lower Churchill is still running into the sea and I would say that it will run into the sea until the year 2000 when this Peckford administration may be in its last years 7 when the Premier is about to hand it over to - AN iiON. 11EMBER: Stagg. MR. F. STAGG: I guess the next Premier of Newfoundland is not in the House yet.

It can flow into the sea until the year 2000 because if we had listened to the member for Bell Isl=d, as he then was, before he skipped to the other side of the Province where nobody knew himJwhen he said on June 27th. in the same debate 1 and I will just quote here for another few seconds, "We asked the hen. minister about the development of :the Lower Churchill, the hen. minister spent, I suppose, about ten or fifteen minutes talking about the previous administration, what the previous 1824

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 722 NM - 1 MR. STAGG: administration had done, what kind of a deal we had made in the development of the Lower Churchill and the Upper Churchill. Red herring, Mr. Speaker, red herring.':md I am trying to emulate it now because nobody really can, although I must say some members opposite, and I digress here for a minute, some members opposite have accused me of being the Neary of this side. They have accused me of being the Neary of this side. They have come up to me in the corridor and they have said, "You are getting just like Neary.

You are getting just as bad as Neary." And I have got a good mind, Mr. Speaker, to identify them, to identify who they are on the other side who are saying that I am the Neary of this side. And there was one fellow who even said I was the Simmons of this side. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. STAGG: If you are going to insult me boys in that way you run the risk of being revealed. Now look, there are only two of ~~em left in the House, only two of them left in the House, and one of them said it to me. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. STAGG: And the others are not coming in.

Now, I must get back to the member for Bell Island where he talked about red herring. "Red herring, Mr. Speaker, red herring, trying to evade the issue, did not want to come to grips with the problem. He said he would rather see the water flow into the ocean from the Lower Churchill than have it developed the same way as the Upper Churchill.

Well, Sir, I say to the hon. minister tonight ''- we used to sit in the night time in those days, which we do not do anymore - thank God, ''that there are a lot of men, women and children in this Province who are depending on developments like the Lower Churchill for their living" - the construction jobs on the Lower Churchill what he meant - heads of households depending on it, Sir, to earn a living for themselves 1825

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 722 NM - 2 MR. STAGG: and their families. They do not want to ,see the water continue to flow out into the Atlantic Ocean, Sir, or out into the Gulf of St. Lawrence, wherever it is flowing:' What the hon. member from Bell Island, and the member for White Bay South 7 as he then was, although I cannot find the exact quote for the member for White Bay South because he was a little more slippery than the member for Bell Island,and maybe even the member for White Bay North,as he then was, these men now are the members for Twillingate (Mr. N. Rowe), and the Straits of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts).

The only man who is really still in his seat is the member for the Straits of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). I do believe that the record will show, and I am doing research on it and when I get it I am going to reveal it to the House, that they said; "Let the project go ahead, we need the jobs. There is unemployment in the Province, we need the jobs." AnC. I say to you that Frank Moores and John Crosbie and all the members of this administration who said, "No, no, no, the water will flow into the Atlantic forever," we deserve a good round of applause.

We deserved to get re-elected in 1975 and we did get elected in 1975 and we got elected in 1979, and 1983, and 1987, and 1991, and so on. And in 1983 will have to appoint an Opposition and I will probably be part of it. Well,that is the sort of thing, that is the sort of thing that this administration stands for.

This is the sort of thing that we are - we are willing to bite the bullet. ~e over here are willing to let the Lower Churchill flow into the Atlantic forever unless we can get a better job because as I said to myself, in 1972 I had two children, in 1979 I have four, very fecund the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), I have four, and two of these children born since 1972 are now old enough to say, "Daddy, why did you sell us out in 1972? They are saying at school that you sold us out in 1972." MR. FOBERTS: MR. STI.GG: MR. ROBERTS: Why? The y are old enough to say it . Why? 1826

August 10, 1979 Tape No. 722 NM - 3 MR. STAGG: But they do not say it and they cannot say it because we did not do it. But if we had listened to hon. gentlemen opposite we would have done . it. We would have dane it. So this is what we on this $ide have to continue to get before the public of this Province. MR. W. CAR!rER: You have done a good job. MR. STAGG: That there is a matter of principle ipvolved here, that this party stands for, this side of the House, this government stands for development. Yes, we stand for development, but not development just for the sake of the jobs.

We do not stand for development for Quebec. And it seems to me that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jantieson) is following on in the ignoble trend established by his predecessors as leaders of the Opposition, and I would like for him, if he is within earshot or Hansard-shot, or wherever he i .s, to reply to that.

Because he cannot come in here and sort of obliquely, as a passing :;-eference, suggest to us that we should now have a look at the BNA Act to see whether a corridor through Quebec was in the national interest because he had the opportunity to influence the government, he was supposedly a big shot 1827

August 10, 1979 Tape 723 EC - l MR. STAGG: in the Trudeau administration. Evidently, he did not even think about it. It was not something that he cared about. He also attempted to heap ridicule upon this government. He said,'They had four or five or six different positions, you never knew where they stood.' You never knew where they stood - that is what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said. Well, if that was the position, if this government was so waffling - MR. MARSHALL: MR. STAGG: It breaks me right up! It breaks him right up!

If we were so waffling as to not know where we stood, well, I think that the Leader of the Opposition in his capacity as whatever he was, Minister of Transport, Minister for External Ufairs, minister of this and minister of that, then he should have revealed us. He should have been on the press telling the people of i'iewfoundland what a bunch of ignoramuses we were. Apparently, he did not do any of those things. So I wonder if it is correct.

I wonder if it is just not rhetoric, if it is not just something dragged up to try to refute the very able and precise and incisive arguments put forward by the member for St. John's East, our House Leader (Mr. Harshall). Mr. Speaker, that side of the House have been consistent since 1972. They look upon projects like the Lower Churchill like a LIP programme or a Canada Works programme or welfare. Thev see it as a magnificent project, as a grand imperial concept, as their mentor would have it.

Well, we do not look on·· it as Canada Works, we do not look on it as welfare, we do not look upon it as LIP - we look upon it as a national treasure, something that has to be developed in due course, so that our children will not be able to say to us, 'Daddy, why did you sell us down the drain in ? ' - whenever it was. Our children are not going to say that to us.

That is the kind of people we have over here. l~e do not care if we ever get elected again - well, maybe we do care if ~e get elected again - but if it means that we would have to stoop to that kind of short-term political gain, we will not do it. ::-!R. ~1ARSHALL: Hear, hear! 1828

August 10, 1979 Tape 723 EC - 2 :1R. STAGG: And we never will do it. Certainly, I will not be here if we start doing it, and I cannot see our leader as being part of it. I mean, he is much too forward-looking. And I would like to say in conclusion - I have only been on the go here for fifteen minutes - I swear I have said more in fifteen minutes than the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Sii!IIIDD.S l said in all seven years he has been here! He has had one speech four thousand times! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STAGG: Notice the applause from this side of the i:louse.

This is a ~~KJmentous day, it is a momentous bill, Mr. Speaker, and if we could still bestow knighthoods on Newfoundlanders - it was abolished, I believe, in 1947 or somewhere thereabouts, a further example of our independence from England - but if we could still bestow knighthoods on people in this Province, I would suggest that there would be Sir John Crosbie II - because I believe there was a previous Sir John Crosbie. John Crosbie is the man who gave this government its strength in the early days.

We followed him in 1972, we followed him before that, some of us, and certainly, we have all followed him since then.

But if John Crosbie had decided in 1972, 'This administration under some leadership from me must have a monument to dedicate after it,' and he had decided that we were going to do the Lower Churchill according to the DRINCO suggestion - that agreement that they were offering at the time which the member for LaPoile (Mr. ~eary) spoke about when he was into debate - if we had decided ~~at we were going to do that and if John Crosbie had decided that that was what we should do, we probably would have followed him. He was a man of considerable talent whe,n it came to persuading people.

Fortuitately, he will 0e able to look back, we will be able to look back- on June 27, 1972 when !1r. Crosbie said- '~iever,'- 'Never,' he said, 'I would sooner see ti>e water go to the sea than for us to agree to terms like that on the Lower Churchill. :' SOME !:!ON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1829

August 10, 1979 Tape 723 EC - 3 MR. STAGG: A great man! And, Mr. Speaker, if we could bestow knighthoods on people, I would suggest that this is the man we should bestow a knighthood on - and I would also say to hon. members here - because he is a much maligned political figure in this Province and hon. members opposite would like to tear him down - everybody who stands up on this side, whenever it is considered relevant, should give the man his just deserts. He is a great patriot in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

STAGG: He is a great man and deserves better than hon. gentlemen opposite are giving 1:-..im. I also commend to hon. gentlemen the November 28, 1975, full statement issued by the Minister of Finance, as he then was - twenty or thirty pages. Read it, read it - especially all hon. members who are here for the first time. You can get it down in the Legislative Library. You can also get all sorts of embarrassing previous positions of hon. members down there if you read t.'Le Hansard as I did here, exploding the member for Bell Island for what he is, which is, I suppose, a shrewd politician to some extent. HR.

NEARY: What is that? !1R. STAGG: In any event - I was quoting from Hansard the position taken by the hon. gentleman in 1972, whi~'L I consider, if we had followed in 1972, would have been tragic for this Province. The hon. gentleman may have another

interpretation of it, as he usually does. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is the end of my comments. There were a few more things I wanted to say, but they cio not hang together now, 1.830

August 10, 1979 Tape 724 PK - 1 Mr. Stagg: but I especially wanted to get on the record about the Leader of the Opposition, and I think I have dcne that adequately, he became more Canadian than Douglas Fraser, he became a zealot, and this is the danger of the newly converted. He became more Canadian than a Newfoundlander. So, Mr. speaker, with those few comments I commend the House to this bill.

And I know that the implementation of this bill and the agreement between Canada and Newfoundland will eventually, it may not be this year, it might not be the next year, it might not even be until as I say the Premier decides that he may want a leadership convention around the year 2000, and it may not even be until then. MR. NEARY: When you want to get born again. MR. STAGG: It may not even be until then, but we are on the right track because time marches on and we will never have to say to our children that we sold out Newfoundland, as hon. gentlemen opposite were prepared to do in 1972. Thank you. SOME HON.

ME:l-iBEBS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (SIMMSl: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I was prompted to speak in this debate by the vicious speech given yesterday by the hon. the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), the hon. Government House Leader,.. and then again, of course, by the two speeches that followed by the Minister of Finance (.Dr. collins) and the most recent speech, the latter speaker, the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg). SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: But, Mr.

Speaker, the greatest repudiation of the substance and the content of what the hon. the Government House Leader had to say was the complete lack of attention given to it by the press. so,I suppose,that in itself says something about what the hon. member had to say. 1831.

August 10, 1979 Tape 724 PK - 2 Mr. Lush: However, in view of the Premier's efforts to make this a new govern=ent, and to indeed for this new House with a new approach to the debate, the decorum of the House a few things ought to be said about the last three speakers on the government side. The Leader of the Opposition speaking yesterday llli!de the point rel.ating to the government's del.:iberate and continuous efforts to disassociate itsel.f from its immediate predecessors;wanting a new approach, and to disassociate themselves, Mr. Speaker, from the past.

Indeed,at one point the Minister of Mines and Energy (Hr. Ba:rzy) was speaking, and in alluding to this new approach , a positive approach, to use that example that educators are so familiar with,of looking at a glass that is half ful.l. as opposed to half Mr. Speaker, these three last speakers on the government side certainly did not use that approach, that positive approach of looking at a glass half full.. So it would appear, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) and other members they want their 1832

August 10,1979 Tape NO. 725 DW -·1 MR. LUSH: cake and eat it too. It is fine to refer to the past as long as its with the Liberal party. It is fine to have a negative attitude as long as it relates to the Libe:t"al party. MR. NEARY: That is right. Forget Egret, the scandals. MR. LUSH: Now, 1-".r. Speaker, this is a two way place and this hon. member not very often says anyL~ing that is negative, I try to be a positive person. And I would suggest.to Mr. Speaker that if the tenor of this House is changing, if the tenor of this House will change I think ltr. Speaker can put it on the hon. member for St.

John's East and mark yesterday as the day that it began. The day that it began, Mr. Speaker. That hon. member has become so obsessed with hatred for the Liberal Party that whenever any­ thing comes up that he can,in the mo