FORTY - FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLArD. Volume XLI First Session Number 42 VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush Tuesday [Preliminary Transcript] 28 November 1989

The House met at 2:00 p.m. MR.SPEAKERLu): Order, please! The hon. the Opposition House Leader, MR. SIMMS: Before we get into routine proceedings I wonder if I might take this opportunity to asi< Your Honour, on behalf of the House, to send a letter to a person who was involved in a national news story not too long ago. Michelle Mercer is the name of the individual. She is a an ROMP Officer recently graduated, I think it was in August, from ROMP training in Saskatchewan and now stationed with the ROMP in Prince Edward Island.

She recently was probably one of the key figures in the capture of what has been known as Canada' s 'most wanted criminal' in recent weeks and months, Mr. Legere in New Brunswick, It is a perfect example, I believe, of the need to recruit more women police officers in the ROMP Force and the Constabulary Force .It is also an example of women being skille.d at very difFicult police work and ve.r'y dangerous police work in dealing with dangerous situations The most important point I wish to make, Mr.

Speaker, of course is that she is from Grand Falls . would like to as 1< the Speaker with the concurrence of Mernber opposite to wr'ite her a letter and commend her on her performance. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear', hear MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the M:inister, of Justice. MR. D:[cKs: Thank you, Mr , Speaker. On behalf of the Members on this side of the H o u s e we share the hon , Member ' s pride in someone fr'omn his own District who, as we all know from the news report, has done exceptionally well, I would like to add to that the pleasure at seeing a women evidence the merit of women entering non-traditional roles.

Certainly, there was some thought in the past that certain things were suitable for men and others for women. I think, if any Lhing should demonstrate to us thatt his is no longer t h e. case, a n d certainly should no longer be the conventional wisdom, this certainly is an example. And, of course, as the Mxirrister c'f' Justice, although the ROMP in Prince Edward island does not 'Fall within ny jurisdiction, it is certainly an oI3por'tu nity on wh:i, c h to comment as well on the fine service that the ROMP have t r a di t io n a .11 y a ffo r ci e d to 1: i e people of the Province over many years.

For these reasons, as well as those expressed by the Opposition House Leader, on hc.halE of all Member's of Government we certainly concur, with his suggestion. Thank you, W. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the M i n i s Ler oF Fisheries MR. LJ. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to Lake this opportunity to advise t h e Li November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 Ri

Honourable House of the position taken by the Government of Newfoundland at the November 21st, meeting of the Atlantic Groundfish Advisory Committee (AGAC), with respect to the management of Northern cod. The ACAC structure pro v i d es a Government/I n d us try framework from which the management of all groundfish stocks within Atlantic Canada is addressed on an annual basis. This years meeting, which was hld in Halifax, was of special interest to t h i s Province, s i n c e the 1990 management plan, for 2J±3KL (Northern cod) was one of the most important issues on the agenda. As hon.

Members of this House are well aware, there is considerable uncertainty surrounding the Northern cod stock. The Harris Panel, which was established by the Federal Government, submitted its interim report earlier this year, and indicated that its biological assessment of the stock could not substantiate a TAC above the 190,000 metric ton level For 1989.

However, the TAC for 1989 was reduced to 235,000 tons from 266,000 in 1988, with the Federal Go v e r n me 11 t i ii di c at i n g 1: hat t he 1990 quota for Northern cod would be established once the Harris Panel has presented its final report, and once t h e Federal Governmnen'L has assessed additional s c i e ii t iii c ci a La From cx pan ci ed research surveys and 1:989 comi'nercial catch data. The Harris Panel is expected to subi'riit its F'ii'ial report to the Federal Government by the end of this year.

In the meantime, the Federal Government has established an interim total allowable catch level of 190,000 tons for 1990 for planning purposes, but has indicated that a final quota will be established in early 1990. From this Province's perspective, Mr. Speaker, the two most important management decisions relating to Northern cod for 1990 relate to the actual quota level and the allocation of the resource amongst various user groups.

Our' officials advised the Atlantic Groundfish Advisory Committee that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador can support an interim total allowable catch For Northern cod of 190,000 metric tons for' 1990. However, the Province also indicated that its final position on the 1990 quota will be guided by the final r'eport of the Harris Panel. Mr. Speaker, the Northern coci stock has been the cornerstone of the Newfoundland and i...abracior' fishery for centuries.

This stock has shaped our very existence and continues to be of viLal importance to this Pr'ovince Indeed, iAjithout this s Lock we could not survive as a Province. It is for , this very reason that the needs of this Province must r e c e iv e primary c o ii s i d e r a t to n :1. n the allocation of the NC) rthern cod resource . It would be totally unacceptable., Mr. Speaker, qiven the maj or reductions in this stock, that our dependence on it. be placed on the same plane as other Pr'ouinces . Clearly, this s 'Lock must be managed wi Lii this Pr'ovince 's special interest at the forefront.

Over the years 'Four key pr'inc:iples have guided the A'L]an'L:ic grou ndF:L s h management pro cc ss aci j ace ri c y , e co nomi, c ci e pe nd en cy community and 'Fleet ci epenci en cc and economni.c efficiency and fleet mobility. These four pr'inciples have been applied, to varyinq degrees , in the management: of all fish stocks , and have b e e n supported by this Province since 01 L2 November 28, 1989 Vol X1..I No. 42 R2

the managenient plan was formaized some ten years ago. This Province, at the November. 21st. AGAC. meeting, reiterated this Government's full support for these principles, and tabled a position (a copy of which is attached to my statement) that the allocation of the reduced 1990 Northern cod quota should be guided by these principles. It is our view that an objectue weighted applications of these four basic principles would safeguard t h i s Province's special interest in the Northern cod resource and would accommodate the special needs of both the inshore and offshore sectors of our fishing industry.

Clearly, Mr. Speaker ., no other part of Eastern Canada can make the same arguments for access to Norther.n cod on the basis of fundamental groundfish management principles as can be made by this Province. Mr. Speaker, on a retrospective basis, it is clear that this Province's access to Northern cod was compromised by the manner in which the groundfish management principles were applied. Furthermore , the flawed scientific projections of this stock created unprecedented demands For access to this stock by user , groups in other Provinces.

Indeed, allocations were made to non—Newfoundland user groups on the basis of these flawed projections, with in excess of 22,000 tonnes of Northern cod being landed in other Provinces, primarily Nova Scotia. In UICIAI of these considerations , Mr. Speaker, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador cannot accept a pro rata reduction over all user groups as the basis for the 1990 Northern cod management plan.

Simply put, s LI C h an a p pro a c Ii wo LIII ci have 1: he e'Ffe c t of placing Newfou rid la lid user groups on the same plane as other groups in other provinces Moreover, such an approach would be totally inconsistent w:i.t.h the basic principles underlying the A tianti c Grou nclfi s h Ma riageme n L Plan, Mr. Speaker, this Government also remains firm in its view that the inshore 'Fishery must continue to receive first call on the norther'ri cod resource. It is fort his reason that the management strategy for this stock must recognize, f i r s t and foremost, the special needs of this fleet sector.

This was the clear , message that this Province delivered at the Nociemnl:er 21st ACAC meeting. In view of this critical consideration, this Government is 'not prepared, on the basis of the interim Northern cod quota, to accept any reductions in the inshore allocation fro in its present level of one hundred thousand metric tons .

Moreover, the AGAC meeting was advised that the Province cannot accept any portion of the inshore allowance now taken by lar'ger , fixed gear , vessels being placed . under a q LI 0 ta I ri C c) 0 C I U sb n , Mr, Speaker, It wish to note that the Atlantic Grouridfish Acluisor'y Council is an advisory committee to the Minister 0 1 Fisheries imvl Oceans , the hon . Torn S'idclon . In the nor'mal ' course of events, t h e Fed eral Minister has a f01101Ai .... UD meeting = with his provincial. counterparts s u b j e c t to the AGAC mrleetinqs , throuqh t h e A'Lla ritic Council. of Fisheries Minis lers .

I wish to advise this hon House that I will be availing of t h i s f orurn to reiterate the position of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador on the rrlanaqerrierit. of the northern cod resource. .[rideed, I will also be availinq of this forum to reiterate this Pr'ovirice s concerns on other serious 'I'isher'y matters as well., such as the L3 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 ' R3

resource crisis in the 4RS+3PN (Gulf) cod stock, and the serious foreign overfish -ing problems on the "Nose" and "Tail" of the Grand Banks. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand WE SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHENS: Thank YOU, Mr. Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for providing me with a COPY of the statement well in advance of the House of Assembly, and of course that is the way it should be, and I would like to thank him for that courtesy.

But, indeed it is a very important statement that the Minister has delivered today, it is a very, ver'y important matter and a very serious mat:ter for the people of the Provi:nce, from one end of the Province to the other. Of course we watch with great interest the AGAC meetings in Halifax and- what really would come out of it, and of course the Minister was questioned in the House on what the position of the Province was, particularly concerning the inshore allowance. We are very pleased to know that the Minister is sUpporting its stay at one hundred and fifteen thousand me Lric tons, But apart from that, Mr.

Speaker, what is in this statement is basically what has been in the statement, as the Minister sa:id , For the last ten years . The four basic principles that the Minister has outlined, of course, has always guided this Province and been the basis For this Province ' s submnis sions and arguments to AGC, and as well to the Federal Government when they talk about adj acency. and econoinic dependency, community and fleet dependency, and economic efficiency and fleet mobility.

So there is nothing new in what the Minister has said, except that we are encouraged to know that the Province is not willing to accept a reduction in the inshore allowance, I guess what this statement today does more than anything else is it outlines to the House of Assembly and those in the galleries and the people of the Province, that when ydu are in Government it is not as easy to reach conclusions and decisions and find sc'lutions as it is to propose when you are in opposition.

I say that because when the Premier was Leader of the Opposition, on March 18, 1988, he said in this House that.- if there is fish, then for as long as there is fish surplus to Newfoundland, we cannot be a dog in the manger about it, we have to provide access to other Canadians . Ne have - to as long as Lhere is surplus fish, with which, of course, no one can argue. Then he went on to say, if thEre is no surplt.is Fish next: year, which is this year, then it ends. It is fairly simp .... There is no trouble to control that.

IL guess what 1 IAJOUId like to say to the Minister and to the Premier today, and ot:her Members in this House, is that it was fine Ia be in Opposition and say that it is so simple, but what we have heard coming From the Government over the last three or four months in this Province, and again today by the Minister' s s tateinent. , it is certainly a matter that is not.. 'simple to deal w i t h . . OF course, we knew that LAIhen we were in Government. - We pre I:ty well had hoped today that the Minister would have h a d p I IF LI- November 28, 1989 Vol XLI . No. 42 RI-

to I something concrete to tell us, something new, not something that has happened in this Province and has tal<en place at AGAC meetings for the last ten years On the crisis in the cod stocks off our shores, I would like to say to the Minister that everyone is anticipat:ing a TAC of 190,000 metric tons, but 1 think we have to fully realize that the northern cod stocks, while there needs to be remedial action taken to allow the stocks to grow, the northern cod stocks are not in as desperate a shape as the cod stocks off the Grand Banks.

There is need to address the nature of the stocks and to let them rebuild, because ideally we want to have our fish stocks rebuilding, so that we can take more and more fish and create employment and greater income for our fishermen and plant workers.

But let me say to the Minister, as w .1 1 , t ha t on the i s s u e of overfishing, it is a very, very difficult situation to deal with My colleague for Bonavista South was in northern Europe just a few weeks ago, when I was in the south of Europe, and there were a couple of problems Number one is they do not trust Canadians, they do not trust our motives for waritlng them to stop taking as much fish; they think we want to t a k e over Lheir markets; they do not think the cod stocks are in as serious a state as they are, and these are very serious problems to deal with I would just 'like to say to the Minister, that in addressing the issue with the Federal Minister, the issue of straddling stocks is very complex, and even though the European comi'nunity are not allowed to take •cod in 2J+3KL, t h e y a r e fis hing outside, and taking thousands of metric tons of that straddling stock outside the 200 nile limit and 2J±3 KL, as well as taking thousands of rrietric tons outside the Nose and Tail of the Grand Bank It is that s'Lradd'iinq stock, and it is hard to make them understand that by them fishing outside it is affecting what is happening inside our zone.

The first thing they will say to you is, Who is causing thE probierri inside the 200 mile limit? We are not allowed in there, so you rnus t be causing the problei'n. So '•,it is a very complex issue when you are talking about dealing with overfishing, particularly by Spain and Portugal. I would like to say 1:0 thc Minister that in going to t h e Fed e r a 1 Go u e ri Inc Ii t a id t a 1 1< i ii g a solution to the crisis that we ar'e now into, I would ask the Minister to keep in mind that cod is renewable, fish is a rnewab'le resource.

If properly rrianaqccl it will rebuild and there c a n be a good futur'e for the hundreds of coi'rimunities in our Province, and the thousands of fishc'i"mc'ri arid .1:i s Ii plant workers let us not s Iiu t everything down full s cal. e and lose the very, , very i,mpor'Lan'L people skills which are 'involved in the fishing indus ir'y , and .1. ose the millions of dollar's o'i infrastructure that 'is built LIP a r o u n d o u r Province.

Because ii' you do that, you will never have an opportunity to get IL back; regardless of what happens to the cod stocks, which we know, if' properly managed, will bebui.ld So In "caching a solution with the Federal Government, keep that in mind . Do not go kow'Lowi, rig to Ottawa , tell them IAJha '1: you wa ii L done with the fishery :in Newfoundland and Labrador, . You are the Provincial Mi,n'i,s'(';er of Fisheries L.5 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No 42 R5

SOME HON. MEMBERS: The present

schedule calls 'For Hear, hear! occupancy by mid—December. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice MR. DICKS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In response to certain questions raised by the Opposition House Leader I have a brief statement which I would like to read to the House. I apologize to the Opposition House Leader. I received it hot off the press before I caine to the House, and I did not get a copy to him until. I came up here, Mr.

Speaker. 'rhe statement concerns the Grand Falls courthouse and the delays in the opening of that facility: Public tenders were awarded for the lease of the Grand Falls courthouse in late summer, 1988. The contract w a s for the construction of space suitable For use as a courthouse. The facility, to be, built on Government owned property, is to be leased to the 'dep'artment of torks, Services and Transportation For a period of thi"ty years. After that time the I Department wi, [1 own the Fcility. The general building iyout was included in 'Lhe tender c'.ii.

Construction was due For completion on September 1, 1989. The official opening would have followed soirietirne after. . However, the developer, RedMall Ltd. of St. John' s , has not to date corrll:)leted the building to a level suitable for occupancy. The mechanical system, thE. a i r handling and ventilation, is not operating satisfactorily, and must be fixed prior to attempting to oper''L e courts from the building. Furniture for the Judge.s Chambers, boardroom, staff areas, etc. has been publicly tendered and a contract for its supply awarded to Office Norld.

In the interim the Judges and staff will use existing furniture, which will be replaced as the new furniture is delivered. This IAJi.i.l not delay the occupancy of the facility. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, MR._SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: the hon. the Opposition 'louse Leader. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, every statet'rierit t h e Minister of Justice brings to the House - as I recollect, the last one he gave was hot off the press, too. Perhaps he might ask his of'F icials to move a l:itiJe more swiftly. Mr.

Speaker, on Friday when the Justice critic, the Member 'For Hui'nber East (Ms Verge) asked the Minister that question, he showed that he was not on top of what is going on in his Depar'Lmnen't: respect to very important proj e.c'Ls around the Province. And yesterday, when I asked Lhe sai'ne question, Mr. Speaker, he showed that he did not even 'Lake the effort or t h e tirite over' t h e wee 1< end , after the Meml:er For Hurriber East: raised it on F'rida to check into it and give an answer yester'day. . 'Then, when' I asked We question, of course, he Showed his arr'oqance , and suggested, Mr.

Speaker, that I go I L,6 November 28, 1989 Vol XL.I No, 42 R6

49 talk to the developer and find out what is qoing on. Finally, af.er all the pressure from this side of the House, we now find a very simple explanation as to why that facility is not open So, I hope the Minister has learned a lesson through that particular exercise.

Now, I hope, too, that since he implied on two or three occasions that I, as the Member for Grand Falls, In my former capacity as President of Treasury Board, or whatever, perhaps was somehow wholly responsible for getting this courthouse for Central Newfoundland and for Grand Falls, a point which modesty prevents rrie from acknowledging, may I ask him to keep me in mind for the official opening, whenever that should occur? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Oppositin. MR. RIDEOUT Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of E in p .10 y ne nt a n d Lab 0 u r R cia t :i o n s last night stepped uninvited into the horries of Newfoundland and Labrador and insulted thousands of Newfoundlanders, those employed and 'those unemployed, Hundreds of people, Mr.

Speaker, in those homes' do not have enough insurable work weeks this year to qualify for unemployment lnsurance because of the failure in the fishery, yet the Minister, with the satisfied grin of the Grinch that stole Christmas, told those people in Fogo, Harbour Deep, Fleur de Lys, and in, rural Newfoundland and Labrador, that if they wanted to survive in those surroundings and those communities in "u ral Newfoundland, they would have to go on social assistance. Now, Mr.

Speaker, :r want: to ask the Minister this, will the Minister tELl the House when she is going to get off this incompetent kick oF passing the b u c k to t h e Department of Social Assistance, or to the Department of Fisheries, or to wherever she can pass it, and begin to 'Fulfill her mandate, which is to create employment opportunities For Newfoundland e rs and Labradorians? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations MS COWAN: Mr.

Speaker, I will be able to address my, mandate and the mandate of this Government IAJhE!fl we have managed to tidy up t h e incompe'I:ence of the last seventeen years. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Leader oF the Op r o s I t 10 n MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, if that is the an swer , the people in F'oqo, H a r b o u r Dc e p , and 'ti o s e p1 a c e s will be really impressed LAELt,I'1 the Minister today.

The Minister has had eight months in office, and in view of the f ac t that during those eight: months the unemployment rate In this Pr'ovince has increased 'two full percentage pol its CUe r this time las '1:: year, wi. 11 the Minister tell the House how many new jobs she has created in the last eight months, since L7 November 28, 1989 Vol XII No. 42 R7

she has been responsible for creating employment opportunities in Newfoundland and Labrador? she going to get out of her office and go out into rural Newfoundland and talk to those people? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS_CONAN: Again, my comment is that it is not easy to try to correct the errors of the past. We are working at it and we are committed to it. We have a Department of Employment which is different, I might say, from the last Department of Manpower. Its mandate is very, very different.

We have an Economic Recovery Commission, we have the Department of Mines and Energy, we have the Department of Development and, fortunately, we have Social Services to deal with those people who, in the short—term, need help, and who have relied on Social Services much too long in this Province.. We are going to attempt to change that. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. t h e Leader of the OI3posi€ion. MR. RIDEOUT: Put them all on welfare, Mr. Speaker, that is the Minister's answer. Mr. Speaker, the Minister has been an unmitigated failure, a curse on the unemployed of this Province.

Now let ne ask the Minister this: When is the Minister going to have the gall to go to Fogo, or to go to Harbour Deep, or to go to Fleur de Lys, go to rural Newfoundland and Labrador and tell those people face to face, man to man, woman to woman that her answer for them to survive in rural Newfoundland is join the welfare lines. When is MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations MS_CONAN: I find it very, very strange that the word welfare is so distasteful.

Perhaps if for the last seventeen years we had used the word welfare and acknowledged that people in Newfoundland had to live on welfare, and live in poverty, we would not have the problem we have today. But instead, it was looked at through rose coloured glasses and the word welfare was anathema. Furthermore, I am prepared at any time to go to rural Newfoundland and tell people the truth. When I went around campa:ignirig :t was told, Mr. Speaker, that people were tired of being misled . I do not intend to mislead therri anymore, neither does my Government.

If people are going to have to use welfare for a s h o r t or a long—term time , while we work towards solutions, we will te.1.i them that, we will not disguise it. with some kind of high-flung vocabulary that does not meet the requirements of the people of this Province. MR._SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, the M:ini.ster 's vocabulary is an insult to Newfoundland and Labrador. She could stand last niqht and grin all over the 1. V. screens, and she sits back there in h e r LB November 28, 1989 Vol XL.I No. 42 RB

seat and grins again today, while people in the Province are starving to death, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister has now admitted to this House and to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that she cannot even attack the unemployment problem in this Province even on a short—term basis, and in view of the fact that she has belittled and insulted every Newfoundlander and Labradorian by telling them to join the welfare lines, when is the Minister going to do the honourable thing and knock on the Premiers door and asl< to be relieved - of her responsibilities so somebody else, who might have a grain of sense, might be able to attack the problem? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON.MEMBER: She is not even in her seat now Look at the arrogance, will you! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations I am absolutely appalled, Mr. Speaker, and I think the people of Newfoundland and Labrador , are equally appalled with the statements of the Minis tom' of Employment yes terday evening in the news when she said, "Let them go on welfare." I would ask the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, in view of these statements, and in view of the fact that the Minister has openly admitted to the House that her Department has absolutely no plans , no programs until next year's budget to help those people who are going to be penniless this winter, will the Minister' please tell the House how s h e c a n sit: there day after day after day and not try to do something for t h e people who are unemployed here in Newfoundland? Nas s h e ser'ious yesterday evening when she said that she wanted the people in Newfoundland to go on welfare?

Will she give us some indication of what the Government will be contributing financially to employment pr'ograms :1 n Newfoundland and Labrador this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations MS COWAN: Mr. Speaker, tomorrow, w i t h t h e hon. Minister of Fisheries, I am - going to Ottawa to meet with t h e Minister of Fisheries, and on Thursday to mnee'L with Bar'bara McDougall, at which time we are going to be discussing short: and long-term solutions La this problem which has been brought to our attention by l:he Opposition and by our own constituents MR.

SPEAKER: The hon . the Member For Harbour Main. MR. DOYI.E: Mr. Speaker, i: would as 1< the Miri:ister is it still the position of the Minister of Enmipi.oymeriL, like the Government -- that she suppor'ts , that not one sinicjle dollar will be added lay the Provincial Government to the $5 million Lha 1.. the Federal Go v e ri me it i s p LI in p i ri cj I ri L o a Fishery Response Prog r'ain? A i-id L9 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No, 42 R9

does the Minister have any regard for the dignity of people in rural Newfoundland, that she would make the kind of callous, uncaring statement she made yesterday evening and pass the btick over to the Minister of Social Services? Mr. Speaker, I think 1 the bottom line is that this Minister cannot handle the responsibility of providing jobs to the people in Newfoundland. Will the Minister immediately apologize to the working people of Newfoundland and corrimit herself to jobs for Newf'oundlanders now? And not only now, but in the next budget as well? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the :M.Fit of Employment.

MS COWAN: I hope, Mr. Speaker, that' I will never have to apologize, for saying what is the truth. I arri going to Ottawa because of my Government's concern, because of the very legitimate concern of every individual in this House tp see if we can find solutions. We 'do not need, it would appear, any extra monies from Ottawa. If we find that we do for the particular programs that have been identified here related to the 1 fisheries, then, of course, we will ask for more.

What we do need money for, and which I am well prepared to ask Barbara McDougal for, are employment progr'ams generally that will help us through this pe i od, while our people adjust•'o'e new unerriploymnent insurance programs. I have no problem with asking for money like that, or 'seeing our Government putting money into programs that will support the general unemployed person in this Province and get therri into the job market in some sort of meaningful long—time work. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, the Minister continues to avoid answering the question.

The question is what does her Government plan on doing to address the problems of rural Newfoundlanders and the unemployed people of this Province? Is the Minister speaking for Government, Mr. Speaker, when she says let the unemployed go on welfare, or is it part of an overall scheme that the Government has, that if they can make it rough enough on the people of .

Newfoundland, rural Newfoundlanders, that they will fit them into some kind of a mad cap s c hemne to centralize them and make it cheaper on Go v er nine n t? 8cc au s e you h a ci e amalgamation, you have the downsizing of the fishery, cancellation of employment programs, and now the Minister says let them eat cake, and that is what she is saying. It. this the plan the Minister has for the unemployed? And I am asking h e r to be a little bt more sped lic this time in answering t h e question. The people want to know what plans the Minister has right now to address the problems that the unemployed have. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: This year. Now. This year. Not nixt year. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Mirii,stei" of ErriployrrieriL MS COWAN: Thank you. El "st OF all, may I say there are LiO November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No, 42 R:[O

none so deaf as those who do not want to hear. programs coming from my Department are focused on rural Newfoundland and where - I AN HON. MEMBER: Ha, ha, ha. Are we supposed to laugh at that? MS COWAN: No, it is not supposed to be amusing. The problem is not an amusing one, Sir. MR. SIMMS: Answer the question, then. MR. RIDEOUT: You should go to Fogo today, MS COWAN: I have answered the question now on several occasions. I did not u s e the expression that is being attributed to me. MR MATTHENS: Yes, you did!

MS COWAN: I have stated that short—term and long—term solutions are being worked on a n d if people Find themselves in horrendous situations, social assistance is there to help them. That is what we have social assistance For in this Province. It is nothing to be embarrassed about, it is something that is there and we are glad that we have it at this time.

And we arc g o i n g to continue to need it until we r e c t i f y t h e problems we have inherited, and have a sound econorriy where, when we have one dislocation in one part of the work force .it can be absorbed into another more healthy part of the work force. So that is what we are aiming towards, and that is what my Government is aiming towards. We are cominitted to the development of rural Newfoundland. All the employment SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS COWAN: - where we a r e not getting applications from rural Newfoundlanders as we would like, we are actually going out :Lrito rural Newfoundland to make sure that t h e people are awar'e that these programs are there and will take advantage of them. MR. RIDEOUT: You have not created one new job in eight months. Not one! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fogo. MR. NINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question, too, is to the Minister responsible for Labour and Employment.

Yesterday in response to media questioning, the Minister suggested • and she d i d say it, she can stickhandie and squirm . as much as she wants to in response to the Media question, the Minister said that these people would have 10 resort to 1•• welfare rolls. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. N.[NSOR The Federal GoverrimmienL h a s adintted that it macic a iiiis take in the managemne nt of ou rf:i she rie 5 This Minister made a mistake yesterday, tad) .

The Federal Cover ri mrie ii 1: 1:00 1< away t he .i r livelihood because . of mis ma nag eme it ; 1: hi s Minis 1: c r stripped them of their dignity by suggesting to these people ..... Lii November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No , 42 R 1:1.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NINSOR: - that they resort to welfare. These are not chronic welfare people, these are vibrant, energetic Newfoundlanders. Will this Minister do the honorable thing and stand in this House and apologize to the people of Fogo for the statement she made yesterday? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment, MS COWAN: Thank you very much. It is very difficult when you have to keep finding new, words to say the same thing over and over again, There is no need, as I said earlier, to apologize for telling the truth.. Nhat do you suggest we do?

If you have people in your constituency who are hungry, who need medical care, or who need some sort of help with their mortgage, or whatever, until these short—term measures are found to help them out, what do you suggest they do if they do not go to their local welfare office? I do not know where else they would go. Certainly, another thing I would like to say, too, is if you have identified people with serious problems, let Fisheries know, let my Department know, and perhaps we can he of assistance in helping them. Do not sensationalize therri. We are here to provide sound Governinent.

We are now panicking, we are going about this in a reasonable effort. It is not my j Oh tq know of individual cases on Fogo, it :is the job of that MHA to bring them to my attention, as MHAs do to other Departments. AN_HON. MEMBER: Two hundred people have to move away, and it is not your job. Talk about incompetent performance, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member For Fogo. MR. NINSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speal<er. A supplementary to the Minister The Minister, I guess, in h e r answer, asked a question.

She can initiate the Privat:e Sector Program and she can put some provincial dollars into the Fisheries Response Pr'ogramn, if she is looking for some solutions. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. A. SNON: She can exercise leadership MR. NINSOR: And she can exercise some leadership in her Depar'tmne nt. T hi s ad in I n i s t ratio n Ii a s p LI I:)]. I C]. v said there are too many people in the (is hery It has been sa:i.:I time and time ag -in t:hai: ther'e are too many PEoPle The people of Fogo are experiencing considerable hardship as a result of the Failure of the fishery.

The M i n i s Ler said these people wouJ.cI have to either go on welfare MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon, gentleman has been q:iven quite a bt of leeway; :t gave him L12 November 28, 1989 Vol XLJ No. 12 R12

I quite a lengthy.

preamble at the beginning. I wonder if the how gentleman would now proceed with his question. MR. L4INSOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is is the Minister suggesting to the people of Fogo Island that they have two choices, welfare or resettlement to Toronto or Alberta, because her Government cannot initiate a program? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: Mr. Speaker, I will say again we are looking for ways to keep the people of Fogo in Foqo. We cannot wave a magic wand and change overnight what has been going on for Forty years. We are working on that.

It is not an easy solution. As the how gentleman said earlier, responding to the Minister of Fisheries, we are working on it. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fogo. MR. NINSOR: I would like the Minister to tell this House what programs she has geared to r'ural Newfoundland . We have not seen any. The Minister suggested we have some money that could be spent For welfare to assist these people. Can the Minister now not convince her col:leagues to take that same money and put it into a meaningful work program for these people? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations MS COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have, in the Department of Employment and Labour , Relations, several employment programs whi cli are aimed at rural Newfoundland. One i s the Can ad a / N ewf 0 Un dl and Youth Strategy, which . has an emphasis on rural Newfoundland. We have another, the Graduate Employment program, which aqain is aimed at 1< cc p :1 n g y 0 U n q g r ad u a t e s in rural Newfoundland. ihose are two programs that are ongoing. AN HON. MEMBER: That is not new: That was our pro g r a fl.

MS COWAN: Yes, and YOU had the for'esiqht,i, mUSt say, to introduce t h e Canada/Newfoundland J o b Strategy, and also the second one, the Graduate Program. I applaud you for that.. However, we Felt it did not have enough rural emphasis and did certainly change that very, very early, as a Cabinet. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Merriber for Bur'in Placentia West. 4R, TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, my questaon 15 to the hon. Minister, as well. 'I think it is about time she carrie clean LAI1Lh the House and aclrmitted that she gutted 3.000 j ohs in Newfound land under the Priva I:e Sector Prograrri. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in another few mi '1: Ii s they tkrill have b e e n 0 v e r there for a year, and in that period of time fl h e Minister of Employmne n'L and l.abou r Relations per'mi tted the Premier 1:0 interFere in the collective bai"qaining process in the Marystown Shipyard and, as a r'esult of Lha'L , over 300 .13 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R13

in the sand and ignore it, as was done by past Gov-ernmnents. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! S MS COWAN: This Province has been reliant on make—work projects for so long that people do not know any other way of life. I did not send the thousands of people, nor dd this Go v e r nine n t s e n d t he thousands Of people, to Ontario who went in the last ten years, I wlll have you know. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the member For Bur'in Placentia Nest. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, let: me say to the hon . Minis te r that s he has s a n '1' more in seven months than were sent in the last seven years Mr.

Speai<er, if t hey want: to stay home they have to go on tl1 -ar'e so let me as 1< h e r if her Department, is thinking about: bringing in any sort of plan La help people r e s ettle to t h e Mainland? MR. MATTHENS: Yes. Are you going to buy tickets? Nhat travel agency cia you have set up. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member For St . Mary s The Capes. MR. HEARN: 'Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question Minister. In Minister was For better w those for responsible. is also to t h e. her former role .the known as a Fiqh'ter gas and benefii:s For whom s he was N OIAI t': ha t s he 'i I people are unemployed.

Will the Minister tell us, since in another few weeks, another month or so, the UIC of over 300 people will be running out in Marystown, if she or the Deputy Premier, the hon. Mr. House, has done anything to create jobs For these individuals? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: I will be discussing the matter with the hon. Barbara McDougall on Thursday. MR, RIDEOUT: Nhy do you not go to Ottawa and stay there? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the membe" for Burin - Piacentia Nest, MR. TOBIN: Mr.

Speaker, let me say to the Minister that these people who are about to have to resettle in Toronto, or some other place where a lot oft herri have gone so far, are hard•-wor'k:ing Newfoundlanders, skilled trades people who need the pro t e c 1:. 101 of Go v e r n me n t and not the interference of t h e Premier. Let ne ask the Minister if her remedy for the workers of t h e Marystown Shipyard iAho were laid off is the same remedy she said last night on TU for the people of Fogo, if you want to stay home go on welfare, if not, move away? MR.

SPEAKER: T h e hon. the Minister of Erriploymnent and Labour, Relations MS COWAN: My answer is to do exactly what I have been doing, and I have repeated it on several, occasions My answer is not to stick my head Li/I. November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 Ri/I

I I responsible for the working people of the Province, and is in a position where she can be proactive, she says, let them go on welfare. I a s k the Minister how she can condone insulting these hardworking people who have had such a disastrous year in the fishery? MR. - SPEAKER: The hon.. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: I would like to ask the hon. gentleman how he can condone exploiting, which is what he is doing, and sensationalizing a very serious problem which is being addressed by this Government? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) making statements, and then you turn on us for asking questions. Nhat an incompetent! MR. SIMMS: How incompetent, and idiotic a n d silly. MR. RIDEOUT: Take your responsibility, or get out! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Abe rnerriber for St. Mary s The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister, perhaps , should know that I have never had as many phone calls from irate constituents as I had today concerning the phrases uttered by the Minister on fU last night.

That is a far cry fr'orn the battle cry of the Minister when it was 'a Fair share', and the word, 'equality ' was her operable phrase. I ask her' now iF these words are still part of her vocabulary. If so, where is the equality and fairness for the fisherpersons around the Province? Is she going to be fair , and equal with them so t h e y c a n live 'in dignity? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, MS COWAN: ¶bis morning I had the in teres tinq experience of sitting in on a work shop, or an information session, in which we were given some informaL i o n on the fisheries.

I noticed, and in fact it was very startling, that the annual. 1 nccrne of fishe rpeople in Newfoundland is way, way below that of their counterparts in other parts of Canada, and I noticed that those statistics were collected and gathered dur'inq the time you people were in Governmrient SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. . Speaker. The ques ton I should per'haps as 1< is what has that got to do with the price of fish?

However, :1: will say that this Gover'nmen'L pr'ides . itselF on fairness and balance, a n d I now a s k 'the Minister where the fairness is in asking the poor people o'F'Lhis Pro v i n c e to ID a]. an c e t he i. r b Li ci q e 'I: on welFare. SOME HON. MEMBERS: L15 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42

Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations if this Minister, and this Premier and this Government gets their way, they will not have any income except welfare, which is less than they have been taking from the fishery. MS_COWAN: Newfoundlanders and Labradorians have been living sadly, Mr. Speaker, very sadly, on welfare, make--work programs and unemployment insurance for generations.

That is grossly unfair, We, on this side of the House, are committed to changing that, to see that the parts of the Province that cannot look after themselves in a fashion that is dignified, we will be there to shore it up. We have, as I mentioned, many Departments responsible for doing that: Development is doing some very, very important work; we have the Economic Recovery Team. We are committed to bringing fairness to these people who, for so long, have gone without it. SOME HON._MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR., RIDEOUT: What a hopeless failure. MR. SPEAKER: Thehon. the Member for Grand Bank MR.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let me JUSt say to the same Minister that hunger is sensational enough, In the las'L two or three weeks I ahue had calls from people who are hungry because their earnings from the fishery was so low. And, yes, people in this Province have had a poor Five or six years in the Fishery, but they have had some earninqs frorri the fishery and they have been able to stay alive. But SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! R. MATTHEWS: Now let me ask the Minister this question, Mr. Speaker: The unemployment rate for October, 1989 is . two per cent higher than it was - MR. TOBIN: Two point five.

MR._MATTHEWS: Well, 2.5 higher than it was For October, 1988. Would the Minister please explain to the House why that increase, why the unemployment rate in the ProvincE has gone up by two per cent For the same month last year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon the Minister of Employment and Labour , Relations. MS COWAN: Obviously it is a reflection oF the economy, , an economy that is not in qood shape .We would be the f i r s t people to adii'ii L that: and we are making every Efior.L we can to rectify it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Lhe Member For Grand Bank MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Let me say to the Minister, before I ask my supplementary, that upon taking office . she wiped out 3,000 j oI:)s in this Province •-- 1:hree thousand Jobs - in the Private Sec tor Employment Program, wh 'i. cli 11 L16 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI Nc, 42 R16

was costing Government $5 million at the time, and $5 million was coming from the Private. Sector - 3,000 jobs in one swoop. Now, that is certainly a significant contributor to the unemployment rate rising by 2.5 per cent. Three thousand people in Newfoundland and Labrador is very significant. Let me ask the Minister would she make representation to her Minister of Finance and the Cabinet to ask for the $5 million surplus the Minister brought in this year. the $5 million surplus that was left lying there for emergency contingency plans in the Province?

Would the MinisterS make representation to the Minister of Finance and to the Cabinet and ask for that $5 million f o r an employment program for the 6,000 to 10,000 people who are going to be displaced from the fishery in this Province? The Premier told 'Lhe people 6,000. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: I do not play gaines with statistics, and :r will refuse to do it. It was a favourite practice of the past Government, in the way they' looked at the world through rose coloured glasses and distorted it.

Now you are try:tng to look at it through shaded glasses of aniother type. Those statistics you quote are not c or r cc t. MR. RIDEOUT: What do you mean? Three thousand jobs in the Private Sector Program is correct, AYLNARD: Tell us the correct one. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, two statistics: Three thousand jobs w e r e created last year under the Private Sector Employment Program; the unemployment rate for Newfoundland and Labrador has increased by 2.5 per cent over OcLober of 1988, calculated by Statistics Canada, not by us or by you.

There are two facts, so my question to the Minister is, in light of the fact that there is a surplus in the provincial Budget: of $5 million, and that coupled with $5 million from the private sector is $10 million which can cr'eate 3,000 jobs minimum in this Province, and in light of the fact that 6,000 p cop 1 e mi n i mu mn are go I rig to be displaced from the fis her'y , as the Preinier says, will the Minister ask her Cabinet colleagues fort he $5 million surplus in the Budcjet to d e v el op an e rn ploy me n 1: pr a q r a Ti for the people of this Province? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and l.ahour Relations .MS COWAN: What sort of Droposal would y o u lil<e me to b r i n g you, Sir? Perhaps another Sprung? MR. RIDEOUT: They will take any thing but welfare. MR. R. AYL.WARD: The only proposal you have '.1.9 welfare, and Sprunq is better than that. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. the Memnber' for Grand Bank MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. . Speaker, iL is one 'l:hi.nq La Li? Novemnber 28, 1989 Vol Xl.1 No. 42 Ri?

throw the unemployment rate and the misfortunes of this P r o v i n c e into the lap of Sprung, but let me say to the Minister that it will not be Sprung that will haunt this admi nis tration but, rather, the Economic Recovery learn, which is costing five million bucks this year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MAITHENS: Five iniliion dollars for five or six jobs, that is what it is costing you for the Economic Recovery Team. Let me ask this supplementary, Mr.

Speaker: Will the Minister persuade her Cabinet 1colleagues, if she cannot get the $5 million surplus o u t of the Budget, which the Minister of Finance stood in this House and said is there for employment, to scrap the Economic Recovery Team and take the $4 million or $5 million they are wasting on that this year for an employment program Ifor this Province? MR. SPEAKER: T h e hon. the Minister of Erhployment and Labour Relations, MS_COtAN: The E conomni c Re coy ery Comnmnis s ion is a fine, fine coirimission, it is not a band—aid solutiion.

You pea pie c an no t u n d e r s tan l any 1: hI a g that is long—term, you can only think of something that will come along, stop the problem for four or five months and then back we are, right where we started, or worse. The Economic Recovery Commission is there to work with us to make sure that that type of mistake never comes to haunt aHGovernmnent in this Province again. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Go to Fogo.. Go to Fogo. MR. RIDEOUT: Go and show (inaudible) once .If you went to Fogo, they would throw you over the wharf. MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired., MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! On behalf of hon .

Members I would like to welcome to the galleries today, thirty—four, Level III s t u d e its wi t h t h e I r tea c her Mr. Brian Manning froiri St. Clare' s High School, Carbonear. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER InJEL.LS: Mr. Speaker, in my absence yesterday questions were asked by the lion, the l.eader of the Opposition about IA negotiations. I am r'ead:ing from Hans ar'd now, . The hon . Coy ernmne ni: House Leader undertook to get the information and i arm now providing IL.

The first one appears on page R3 of yesterday 1ç Hansard . The Leader of the Ol:>posit.:ion sugges Led that the Province adopted and made public a pr'oyjncial policy r e s C C t i n g pr o v i s ion a 1 me a s .i r e s that the Province would adhere to, and that would guide the Province a I a .18 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R18

through the course of those negotiations, and in view of the fact that one of those provisional measures the Province adopted required the Province to consult with the Labrador Inuit Association before taking any action that might impede or impact in any way on the LIA's land claims. 11 Now let me correct that misstatement first, Mr. Speaker, by reading from the policy itself. Incidentally, Mr. Speaker, we have not done anything to this policy. We have not yet had a chance to make the changes that may be necessary.

For the moment at least, we are still following the policy that was adopted by the former Government of which, I assume, the Leader of the Opposition is fully aware. The three relevant points are these. Point number one: the rights to subsurface both marine and terrestrial as well as water management rights rei'nain with the Province. Point number two: claimants will be given an opportunity to advise on the management of lands and resources in the settlement area.

Point number three: claimants wil'.l be consulted regarding any malor developments proposed 'for the land claim area during the course of negotiations Now, Mr. Speaker, that is quite a bit: d i f f e r e n L from what was suggested. Now to answer the first question posed. 'Could the Minister tell the House why it was that the Minister of Mines and Energy could execute a twentyfive year lease with the [ron Ore Company of Canada without any consultation whatsoever with the Labrador Inuit association, thereby clearly flying in the face of the adopted government policy? Mr.

Speaker, nothing that was done flies in the face of the policy. Incidentally, Mr.

Speaker, a statute enacted at the behest of the fo rrne r adi'rii n i s t ration as L ti e Minister of Mines and E n e r g y explained a number of days ago in the House on November 21st, the holder of a licence m a y at a n y time during the currency of the licence apply to the Minister for' a Mining lease of all the minerals in, on or under the land or part of t:he land covered by the licence, and the licencee has the right to the issuance of the mining lease .' Now, that is not a statute that this Government as <ed the House to enact, the former Government did that.

The Minister was simply, as he is bound by lalAl to do, issuing the licence as the statute requires, so the Minister issued, the licence, which I should explain for hon. Member, Mr. Speaker, gives the right to the minerals, but not the right to any development of it, riot'.: the right to start a clevelopi'neriL . I:f , as, nd when they want: to start mining, they have to go 'LhroLlqh an envirorii'nental impact statei'nent , at which time 'Lher'e is ampl.e room for consultation and input by everybody that has an 'interest, or has any claim, but: Lher'e is no ability in the Minis'Le rtochoose not to issue it.

Now the second quo s'L:i.on , Mr. Speaker, also has a wrong premise . The Leader of the Op p o S 't: i o n S U g g e 5 't: e ci 'Lii e p rob 1. e 'n here is that the Governri'ien'L is adopting their land claims policy, and t he i r Pro u '1 n c :1 a 1 Pro u :1 s :1. o n a 1 Measures policy has said that they would do one thinq zincl they have ended LIP doi rig s ome'Lhing else Mr. Speaker, that s'Late.mmien'L is wro rig a rid u ntou id ed , so I IAI1,!. '1 now L 19 Nocerriber 28, 1989 Vol XLI: No. 42 R19

go on to the question. Could the Minister tell the House this on every occasion when Government negotiators have sat down with the LIA - Mr. Speaker. I night even ask my own hon. Members if they would j u s t keep the noise level down while I am answering the questions.

On every occasion, as I understand it, when the Government negotiators have sat down with the LIA negotiators, they have repeatedly said to those negotiators, 'we must bargain in good faith, we must 'trust each other. ' Can the Minister explain to the House how this failure to consult with the LIA on this particular Strange Lake lease squares with the position the Government negotiators kare taking every time they meet around t h e negotiating table of bargaining in good faith and trusting each other. Mr. Speaker, there is no failure to consult as is required under the land claims policy.

No consultation was requiired as is set out in the land claims policy as it stands at the moment. No consultation is required as that land claims policy stands at this moment. NOW, Mr. Speaker, let me re-state something the Minister of Mines and Energy himself has said. On reflection, I think it would have been the right or appropriate thing to notify the beforehand that this lease was going to be 1SSUed, ito notify them. I think that that would have been a courteous thing to do, and I have no hesitation in saying, Mr.

Speaker, that in all future instances, the Government would notify the Liii when any similar situation arises . But there is no breach of policy for failure to consult. The third representation made is that t h e Government HOUSE! L e a d e r can take words —I would a s k the other hon. Members opposite if they would stop yattering while I am trying to give t h E! M t h e information they have asked For. MR._SIMMS: They are not talking to MOLt (inaudible) PREM:[ER IiJELLS: It is just a yattering noise which prevents it from being heard, Now, Mr.

Speaker, the third statement they made was that it was interesting how the Government: House Leader can take words and twist t h e m to mean some thing different. well anybody who knows the hon. the Gover'riment House Leader knows that he wc.t].d never take or twist any words to mean anything . The Labrador Inuit Association have now said publicly that they feel betrayed by tI'ie actions of the Government, and in particular the Minister of Mines and Energy over the Strange take lease.

Now would the Minister t:ell the House, what acLion doc.s the Government intend to take now to correct this betrayal and get these negotiations back on track. Mr. . Speaker, , the negotiations are on track, they have never been o il: track, there has never been a betrayal. Mr. Speaker, we will write a letter to the Lat:ractor .tnuit: Association in r e s p o n s e to the letter which they have sent to ne.

I would have given IL to them first except f or the fact that they appear to have made it pubic and advise it, so, all I am saving is that I am not being dis courteous to thermi by not writing to them before I give the answer to the House .They have made it public and in those a L20 November 28, 19.89 Vol XLI No. 42 R 2 0

S circumstances, it necessitates my dealing with it at the first opportunity in the House, which I have done. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. The Opposition House Leader, MR.

SIMMS: On a point of order. .1 would not raise the point while the Premier was answering questions, but I think really, we have to have a look at the rules or the guideline s r e sp e c tin g answers to questions, because, obviously if a Minister or the Premier is going to give an answer to a question, that is going to be quite lengthy, which this one was, it is beyond the bounds of the rules that we normally use in question period for providing an answer to a question.

I think Your Honour has often ruled himself, that if they have a lengthy answer, they should do it under Statements by Ministers where at least, the Opposition Members would have a chance to comment or respond, so I j u s t raise it at this point in time, for consideration by Your Honour, because I think we need to look at that. MR.

SPEAKER: Before addressing the point of order, the Chair is annoyed by constant interruptions, it does nothing to enhance what is going on in the House when somebody is c on s tan t 1 y s a y I n g s one t hi n g after every staterrient that is echoed in the House, and I would ask hon. Members, please, to display some courtesy. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr Speaker, to the point of order. It was addressed In the way in which it was, because the f i r s t question was asked and the hon. The House Leader answered it this way.

If :t remember correctly, the same issue has been raised a couple of times previously. What I will have to do, is to take the question under advisement, and then he says that he will take it under advisei'nent and report back tomorrow. Now this did not satisfy the Loader of the Opposition, he persisted, so he asked another question and he a s k e d the second question to which, the hon. The Government House Leader said, as I indicated, ,'I would have to look 'i n t o the situation, I am absolutely certain that what is being done, is being done properly.

So he s a t down having adv:ised that he would look into it and get back with it. This still did not satisfy the Leader of the Opposition so ho asked a third question, or he asked the same question a t h i r d time, so the hon. The I'louse Leader , reaffirmed his position. Now Mr. Speaker, three questions having been answered and three wrong foundations for the question having been put, it became necessary for 'ne to deal with it thoroughly and in response, Mr. Speaker, I dealt with it thoroughly, having dealt with the wrong s tatemenLs made and the thr'ee questions MR.

SPEAKER: To the point oF order, 'it is a well established fact that in answering questions, be they questions on the order paper or be they questions in the oral questlons period, or be they quo s t ions t a k en u rider ad v is e 'rio ni t, that every ei'i'ort should be rriacle to keep thorn br'Ief and if Lhere is excessively long answers, then maybe, we should get into L.2 1 NovemlDer 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R21

Ministerial Statements, so that the Opposition might have their chance to reply as well. I am sure that we have had situations where answers to questions had been long and excessive but I would advise hon. Members, for the interest of giving Opposition Members a chance to respond, to look at these precedents and look at procedure, particularly with respect to oral questions, taking under advisement and also, in the matter that arose yesterday, I think, with respect to making statements under Ministerial Statements.

We had a situation yesterday where a statement should have come under the item Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees, so lion. Ministers, particularly, should look closely at these things so that the Opposition is given a fair chance to reply. Orders of the Day MR. BAKER: Order 2, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Committee of the Whole on a Bill, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Municipal And Provincial Affairs. (Bill No. .29). On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of .. .lie Whole on said Bill, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Bill No. 29.

Shall Clause 1, Clause 2? MS UERGE: No, Mr. Chairman, MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay. The hon. the Opposition H o u s e Leader. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, this is a 13il1. we debated at some length in the House, dealing with the now Department of Mu ni c :Lpa]. A nd Provincial Affairs, and the po:int we made throughout the entire debate was that Lh.i s Do par tine it was mu c h, rn LI C h too 1 a r g e and h act too many responsibilities For any one individual to be able to administer properly and give service to. AN HON. MEMBER: What Bill is it? MR.

SIMMS: The Department of Municipal arid Provincial Affairs Bill. We a r e in Committee stage now, and . we want to propose some amendments I will tell the CovernmenL House Leader now so that he can Follow the amendments . There may he a requirement for a vote eventualy, so he can alert his troops. Clause 2 talks about the d of i n i t i o n s of Do par tine ri 1: a n ci Minister and so on.

IL would tell the Government House Leader thai.. our intention is, alter we get through all the Clauses, when we reach the title, to propose an amendment to the title which wi] 1 read ••- essentially, the title is The Department of Muni cipa]. and Provincial Affairs . That it t h e title, " A n A c t Respecting T he Department Of Municipal And Provincial Affairs . " We will be moving an amendment to delete all the words af ..er 'Department' in L22 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 . R22

the title and the words 'of amalgamation' he substituted therefore, so that the new title would be, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Amalgamation" as opposed to the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Now that is an amendment we will be proposing when we get to t h e title. In order to reach that stage, of course, there needs to be amendments to certain Clause by Clause stages which will accurately' reflect the new

definitions, therefore, under that new title of 'Minister of Amalgamation' - if I can have my colleague's attention, there. My colleague, the critic for Municipal Affairs, understands that we are proposing an amendment to the title of this Bill and, therefore, we will have to propose amendments to some of the Clauses leading up to it to accurately reflect the new duties and responsibilities of the new Minister of Amalgamation. That is what I am saying to the Government House. Leader. We are on Clause 2, Mr. Chairman, and we would move the following amendment: That Clause 2, all through those subsections, (a), (b) , (c) , (

d) and so on, where it refers to Municipal and Provincial Affairs, we move the appropriate amendments that would read, 'Department of Amalgamation' as Opposed to 'Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. BAKER: To that point, Mr, Chairman, this is kind of silly, simply because there is a Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. There is no such department as the department to which the Member refers , therefore, there cannot be

an act respecting that department. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this silliness on behalf of the Opi:os:ition House Leader is entirely out of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition HOUSE! Leader. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, I do not quite understand what t h e Government House Leader is saying. He has a Bill here, legislation, "An Act Respecting The bepartinent Of Municipal And Provincial Affairs." Nhat is he talking about? Clause 2(

a) says, "Department" means the Department of Municipal a n cI Provincial Affairs constituted by this Act, and we are amendng that clause to read, "Department" means t h e Department of Amalgamation constituted by this Act. Nhat is he talking about? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the GovernmnenL louse L E! ad er MR. BAKER: Simply, Mr. Chairman, it think Clause 1 was already car riod AN HON. MEMBER: No, it was not. MR. S:LMMS: Clause 1 is t h e title. MR. BAKER: I think you could c h e c k the records . You coul.d check with the Clerk. I am sure we have carried the Clause. MR. SIMMS: I was not recognized, you see, Mr. Chairman. I was standing. L23 November 28, 1989 Vol XL.:I: Nc'. 42 R23

MR. CHAIRMAN: It is my Jiderstanding that Clause 1 is already carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: No, Mr. Chairman, it is not. We did not vote. I stood to be recognized, and by that tune, I think, Your Honour had gone on to Clause 2. MR.CHAIRMAN: So we are still on Clause 1, then? MR._SIMMS: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, MR.

SIMMS: I was making the point that we intended to amend the title at the end, when Your Honour runs through all the Clauses and then says, Shall the title crry", and so on, and lead:ing up to that, of course, throughout this Bill all the appropriate Clauses have to be amended therefore to reflect that amendment of the title. The Clerk is nodding his Head, He understands it thoroughly, Your Honour understands it thoroughly, the Clerk of the House understands it thoroughly, and I cannot unders Land why the Government House Leader does not understand it. S MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader. MR.

BAKER: Mr. Chairman, I suggest that you check Hansard and see what was carried. There Was something carried before the hon. Member stood up. If such is the case, L h e n that part has already been carried. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, the Gover'nment House Leader can do what he wishes. If you want to carry Clause 1 as it was, fine, then we will just spend the rest of the day on Clauses 2, 3, 4, and 5. I mean, you can have your way. It does not matter. It is not a big issue .The point we were making is we stood to speak to Clause 1. It does not really ma'Lter to us .

We will amend all the other Clauses , we will amend the title; we will still do all that. So we will be moving an amendment to the appropriate Clauses. The Clerk understands me? AN HON. MEMBER: Y (? S MR.. SIMMS: Absolutely! I do not understand why the Government House Leader does not understand it. So whatever Clause we are on, 1 or 2, wherever we are, I move ..... perhaps Your Honour night want to clariFy for me exactly where we are . I thought we were on Clause 1. MR. BAKER: That is right. That was my Point MR. SIMMS: But he just ruled that we are back on Clause 1 MR.

CHAIRMAN: rhe Chair did not recognize the hon. the Opposition House leader when he stood, not havii.ig seen lyiin and 1 think maybe we should have, before we moved on to carry that Clause MR. SIMMS: p L24 Noverriher 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R24

t So we are on Clause 1? MR. CHAIRMAN: we are on Clause 1. MR. 'SIMMS: In Clause 1, where it n o w says 'The act' AN HON. MEMBER: How often do you beat him in - MR. SIMMS: No. I must say my friend, the Government House Leader, is not feeling too well today. Perhaps he is not able to perform as he normally would, and I respect that pro b 1 em. Clause 1 says, 'This Act may be cited as the Department of Mu n i c i pal and Pro v i n c i a 1 A f f al r s Act.. ' That is what Clause 1 says, correct? The Clerk says, yes. Your Honour says, yes.

We move the following amendment: That the words after 'Department' be deleted and the words 'of Amalgamations Act' be inserted Lherefore. I think that is the right way to put it. MR. CHAIRMAN: It has been moved that Clause 1 be amended. Shall the amendment carry? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Car'ried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Al]. those in favour? MS VERGE: Of the amendment? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman. MR.CHAIRMAN: On the amendment? MR.BAKER: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader. Mr. Chal rman, i j us t Aian 1: to clarify what we are going through now.

Are we debating the amendment the hon Member has proposed? Is that what we are debating? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, we are debating the amendment as put forward by the hon. the Opposition House Leader, MR._SIMMS: Mr. . Chairman, for the inforrr,ation of my friend, the Goverrimant House Leader, I moved an amrtenclirient and i: sat down. Nobody s tood to deba Le it, so the Chair d i d the right thing and as <ed, I Shall the amendment, carry?' MR. BAKER: A cl it w a s defeated SOME HON. MEMBERS: It was carried, MR. SIMMS: In our' view the amendment was carried. MR. BAKER: We said no. MR.

SIMMS: Yes, but you did not have enough Mei'nbers in the House .you see.. MR. CHAIRMAN: .25 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R25

Order, please! Shall t h e arriendrnent to Clause c a r r y? All those in favor 'aye SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye. MR, CHAIRMAN: Against 'nay'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay, MR. CHAIRMAN: The amendment is defeated. On motion, Clause 1, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 2 carry? The hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR._SIMMS: Mr.

Chairman, as I have already indicated clearly in my introductory remarks, my few brief preliminary remarks, in the Clause by Clause scrutiny of this Bill it is our intention to emphasize the fact that this Department which is being created by this Bill, this legislation, is really a department of amalgamation, nothing more, nothing less.

We have stated our reasons for it in debating the principle of the Bill all throughout the debate on SeCond reading, we have also made points about the Department being much, much too large, and too many Divisions in it, and that one individual is not able to properly handle the responsibilities. Therefore, it is our intention to propose amendments , which we have a right to do as the Opposition.

The Minister can shake his head, but we have every right to do it to reflect the views and opinions of the residents out there, t h e citizens of the Province who have communicated to us their dissatisfaction with this new Department and with what it is supposed to be doing, or mandated to do. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, under Clause 2(

a) I move the following amendment: Nhere it says "Department" means the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs constituted by this Act, I move the amendment to delete after the word 'of' the words 'Muniipai and Provincial Al ...airs arid substitute . t h e word 'Amalgamation', so that Clause 2(

a) will read "Department" means the D e part me n t of A rria ig ama t i o n constituted by this Act. r so move that amendment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader. MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman, we have already passed Clause 1, which says: This Act may be cited as The Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs Act. We have already passed that.

In I3eauchesne, Clause 567, "The object of an amendment may be either to modiEy a question in such a way as to increase its acceptability or to present to the House a difierent proposition as an aiter'native to the original question, " which I ani assuming the hon. Member is attempting to do But in paragraph 568, Beauchesne says : "It is an imperative rule that every amendment must be relevant to the question on which the amendment is proposed Every amendment proposed to be made, either to a question or to a I L26 November 28, 1989 Vol XL.I No. 42 R26

proposed amendment, should be so framed that, if agreed to by the House, the question or amendment as amended would he intelligible and consistent with itself," I read two of them. MR. SIMMS: Now he is saying he read Paragraphs 567 and 568. Is that correct? I would suggest to you, Mr. Chairman, that after we have passed Clause 1, which says This Act may be cited as The Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs Act, it is entirely inconsistent that from then on the Act be referred to by a different name. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR._SIMMS: I did not hear the Paragraph the hon. the Government House Leader quoted. Could he repeat the paragraph for me, please? MR. BAKER: Paragraph 568 in Beauchesne. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, he read Paragr'aph 568, convenient for his purposes, hut, of course, he did not read Paragraph 567. MR. BAKER: Yes, I did, MR. SIMMS: No, you did not. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. SIMMS: Nell, I just asked him which Paragraph he read and he said Paragraph 568, MR. BAKER: MR. BAKER: That is correct, yes. MR. STMMS: So. 567 and 568. Now, the Government.

House Leader' did not read the other part of Paragraph 569 (2) which talks about amendments being irregular in one particular, but it does n o L m e a n that the whole of it is not admissible, or it means that the whole of it is not admissible and must be ruled out of order. He did not read that reference, as I understand it. In Paragraph 569 (1) it also says motions can be amended by leaving out certain words; by leaving out certain words in order to insert o t h e r, words; by . inserting or adding other words, which is what we have done here, a perfectly acceptable practice, perfectly in order.

Talking about form and content of amendments a r e Paragraphs 570, 571, and 572, Mr. Chairman, tinder the

section dealing with notions, Paragraphs 565, 566, all down through, do not m a k e any particular reference to it either. Mr. Chairman, [ submit to you that it is in order to propose amendments in Clause by Clause debate in Committee of the Nhole stage. We are not in the House. We are not debating Second Reading of a Bill, the principle of a Bill, we are talking . about C1aL.Ise by Clause scrutiny. MR. GULLAGE: Sit down. L27 November 28, 1989 Vol XL.I No. 42 R27

MR. SIMMS: I will not sit down, [say to the Minister of Amalgarriation. MR. GULLAGE: (Inaudible) MR. SIMMS: Nell, if the Minister does not like it he can leave the House. Obviously, he does not like it, and I am pleased to see; it. Maybe we finally riled him up. It is about time we finally riled him up. It is the first time he has spoken on this issue in weeks and months, and the people: out there want to know the answers. He might not like the fact that he is known all across the province as the Minister who is forcing amalgamation on people out there, but that is a fact.

Newill stand up for the people's rights in this House, Mr. Chairman, s we are allowed to do. rhe Minister can get up afterwards, if: he wants, and tear strips oF Us and do whatever he wants, but: they need not cry, and sham and everything else, Mr. Chairman, I thereFore move that amendment and I submit that it is in order. MR.BAKER: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader. MR.

BAKER: I wish to, once again, point out Lo the Chair Paragraph 568, and I would like the Chair to japply this to this particular jamendment, because t h e arne ndmen t being sugges Led would be, totally inconsistent with what has already been passed in Clause 1; which says This Act may be cited as The Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs Act. I would also like to draw Your Honour's attention to Clause 579, which says that an amendment setting forth a proposition dealing with a matter which was foreign to the pro po s i t ion i n v 01 v e d i n the ma in motion is not relevant and cannot he moved.

I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that a ruling is in order that this amendment cannot be moved. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair will recess for a fe1A minutes to deal with this matter. Recess MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The Chair is ready to rule on the amendment. It is ruled tha L the amendment put forward by the Opposition House Leader is out of order as pertaining to Paraqraph 698 (1) and (2) of Beauchesne. Paragraph 698 (1) says, 'An amendment is out of order if it is irrelevant to the bill, beyond its scope or governed by or dependent: upon amendrrients already negatived .

Paragr'aph 698 ( 2 ) : " An am'?. ndme nt must not be inconsistent with, or contradictory to, the bill as so far agreed to by the cc'mrrrJ: Lee, nor must it be incons'.is tent. with a d e d si on wh i c h t i e commit i.e e has given upon at former amendment The amendrrient in ClaLrse 2 is identical. to the one already defeated by the Committee iii Clause 1. On motion, Clauses 2 through 5, carried .28 November 28, 1989 1 Vol XLI No. 42 R28

MR.CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause 6 car'ry? MR. SIMMS: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The hon. the Oppos:iLion House Leader, MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to have a few words on Clause 6, which deals with the pouiers, functions and duties of the Minister. In addition to making the point about forced amalgamation and the Minister being responsible for that, it appears we are going to have some difficulty proposing amendments to that that would be acceptable to the Government side.

Perhaps the Governmnt side might agree with an amendment that would divide the powers, functions and duties of the Minister under Clause 6, because there are umpteen powers, functions and duties of the Minister under that particular clause. I think it goes from 6(

a) up to 17(j); I mean, there are all kinds of onerous responsibilities, much too comprehensive, creating too great a workload for any one lndividual, not able to respond to the needs and interests oft t he groups out there who would have to deal with the Minister. Therefore, Mr. Speaker. I would like to propose this amendment: that Clause 6 be amended by deleting Sec Lions 6(a)(vii) to 6(a)(xvii) inclusive. I move that amendment MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader. MR. BAKER: Just: to clarify the situation.

The Opposition House Leader is suggesting we remove everything cultural, I suppose, is the intent. This is that Clause 6, sections (vii) to (xvii) he removed. So this removes, then, the encouragement of cultural activities, his toric resources, provincial archives, the museums everything related to the youth of the Province, metric standards, that kind of thing, everything to do with radio, television, telephone, telegraph and all that kind of thing, and the administration of the Acts set out in

Schedule A, which would include The Archiies Act, The Arts Council Act, The Assessment Act, The Building Standards Act, I The Canada Games Park Commission Act., The City of Corner Brook Act, The City of Mo u n t Pearl A c t, 1 lie Condomi nium Act, The Emerge ri c y Measures Act, The Fire Prevention Act, The Housing Act., The t..abrador Act, The Municipal Grants Act, The Municipalities Act, the Newfoundland Coat of Arms Act, 1 he Newspapers and Books Act, The Provincial Flag Act, The St. John s Fire Department, The St. John s Municipal Ele c Lions A c t The Urban and Rural PLanriirig Act, and so on. Mr.

Chairman, I suppose we could let it go to a vote .however, 1 would like to point: out once acja:i.in that Lhi s aine ndme Ii 1: removing 1: he administration of all of the Acts i n c 1 u d i n g 1: h e Mu n I c i p a .1. i t i e s A c t, from the Department of Municipal and Pro v I n c i a 1 A f f a i r s would be totally contrary to the whole intent of the Act; it is a suggestion that goes aqa:i.nst the whole Act itselF, and, as such, . is out of order. MR. SIMMS: L29 Noverriber 28, 1989 Uol XLI No. 42 R29

Mr. Chairman. MR._CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. MR._SIMMS: I could have saved the Government House Leader a lot of time. It was my error, because of my eyes, I meant to go from 7 to 16. It is in Roman numerals, so I had some difficulty in seeing it with my eyesight. So, we are talking about deleting 6(a)(vii.) to 6(a)(xvi'). Let us leave it at that for now, so it does not get any more complex or confused. Mr.

Chairman, in speaking to the amendment I again want to emphasize the reason for proposing this amendment, and the reason for proposing the amendment is because this Minister, while he is acknowledged by the Premier as a super human being, and while he is acknowledged by the Premier as a super Minister - he has said that this Minister is also acknowledged by the people out around the Province as Eric the Amalgamator, as he would know. And that soon w.11 become evident for those who have an interest in the arts and intend to go see Review '89. That will become more and more evident. Eric the Amalgamator, Mr.

Chairman, is what he is referred to. In this amendment we are trying to do the Minister a favour. He does not acknowledge it. He laughs and says, You are wasting timrie .

Sit down We are trying to do the Minister a favour, and we are trying to do the people out there a favour, those groups who would have to deal with the Minister under all these categor-les l...ibr'ary's boards that cannot get to see the Minister, Historic Resource's groups who cannot get to have a chat with the Minister when they want to, the people who are interested In the public archives who cannot get to see the Minister, because he is too bogged down with all these other very heavy and indepth responsibilities. So, we want to do him a favour.

We ar'e suggesting that we delete these responsibilities from the Minister to lessen his work load a little bit, and then, of course, the Premier will have to determine to which Minister he wants to g i v e these new responsibilities. Mr. Chair'mnan , we have a Member over there from Port de Gr'ave who, some say, including himself, is still the Minister oF Social Services. Yet, we have the Premier who says, No, he is not a Minister. He has resigned as Minister of Social Services, or he has given up his responsibilities and duties as Minister , 0.1: Social Services.

All those r e s on s I b iii tie s a id d u 't::i e s ha v e now been assigned to another Minister of Social Services (acting) , and that is the Mini ster of Health. Yet every second day or so we hear the MemiDer from Port de Grave talking about t h e r e s p0 n s i bill t I e s t lie M :1. n i s t e r of Social Services should have, even though he has said to the House that he has given up his r e s p0 n s i bIll t i.e s a s M :1 iii s t e r 0 'F Social Services . It is absolutely and totally conFusing.

The Member for Po rL de Crave does not know what it is or what it is not he is supposed to be doing, he is not absolutely certain. He has opened about thr'ee Happy Trees which is a fine proj ect, by t h e way, and I think he has also opened one Christmas Gift Tree over the last two or three weeks, If .30 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R30

I and I think that has been the extent of his effort as Minister of Social Services, as he calls himself. But we understand he is the Member for Port do Grave and had given up his responsibilities as Minister of Social Services, Since there is some confusion there, I bet you, Mr. Chairman, that if the Member for Port dé Grave, who now we understand is still in the Cabinet - he is not out of Cabinet, he is in Cabinet but he has no responsibilities - I suppose he is a Minister without Portfolio almost. MR. EFFORD: :r am just as confused as you are. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SIMMS: Iell, we are absolutely delighted to get a confession from the Member for Port do Grave who admits, and I hope the Press picked this up, the Member for Port do Grave has admitted he.re in the House that he is lust as confused as we are, and the people of the Province are. But I am willing to bet, Mr. Chairman, that this Member for Port do Grave would make one superb MR. MATTHENS: Oh, come on now, MR. SIMMS: Yes, one terrific MS VERGE: Oh, no! Do not say it. MR. SIMMS: Yes, I have to say it one superb, one terriFic Minister Responsible for Metric Conversion. I bet he would do a great job at that.

At least he would have some responsibility. All we are saying here, Mr. Chairman, is lessen some of the work load of the poor Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, take away some of the heavy, heavy work load, give the groups out there who want to meet with the Minister a chance to meet with him, and give him a bit more time to talk to them. Give these r es p on sib i lit ies to s o rrie o t 'icr Minister, like the Member For Port de Grave, or rriaybe even, Mr. Chairinan, promote one of the Members from the back boric hes There are many capable individuals over there, particularly in that: corner.

There are even some over here in this end, what we call the rump end of the Cabinet. There are many stars in the back bench over there, Mr, Chairman: The Member for , St. George s, who is constantly on his feet speaking out on behalf of his constituents; the Member for Eagle River, who is trying so hard to he in the Cabinet, my Son, you iiould not believe it; the MelTiber , for St.

John's South, landslide Murphy, with a one vote mar'q:in in the election two votes, sorry, on the recount - deserves an opportunity, arid the M e m b e r for Mount Scio , whom the group clown there do not like and do not want to see elevated to the Cabinet, but, most interestingly, the Member for Stephenville, who deserves it more than anybody else on that side. MR. TOBIN: If that group from CarlDonear heard you talk about Cabinet (inaudible) SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: 1-31 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R3.l

I say, the Member for1 Carbonear would make an excellent Minister. Finally, of course, hot to be forgotten, the 'nan who pits at the rear of the Premier, behind the Premier in the LegislEature, the man who carries the Prethier's bags every where he goes, carries his suitcases, runs out and picks up the car and and gets the. car gassed, warms it up for, him in the mornings - MS DUFF: Nhich car? MR. SIMMS: Not his car, he does not have a car himself. The man who does all of those things that the Premier needs to have done, because he does not have time.

The Member for Exploits deserves an opportunity, as well, to sit, in the Cabinet. No are saying, Mr. Chairman, in a legitimate way that. this creates a very heavy work load on that particular Minister and we should give him an opportunity to give up on that, and to tak away sortie of those heavy responibilities so that he can have a Ichance to get out around and 'fleet groups who are having difficulty ge'tting to meet him. That is the essence of our suggestion. MR. CHAIRMAN: I The hon. Member's time has elapsed MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I (All11 return to this again, but you know the esscrice and the reasoning behind the amendment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Government House Leader, MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairi'nan. I am not going to take very long. I just wanted to clear up a 'natter. The Member, when he made h i s, amendment, included Sections (vii.) to (xvii) and very clearly said '(xvii) inclusive' . He admitted that he made, a grievous error.

I think it was an error that became more obvious when I pointed out 1:0 him that his inclusion of (xvii) would then rriake the amendment improper and not acceptabi....I would like to point out that a change in the amendment as proposed by the Mei'nber would require unanimous consent of I:io'Lh sides . He indicated, I believe, that because of this grievous error he m a d e he would like to change his amendment to be Clauses (vii) to (xvi) inclusive, and not (vii) to (xvii) inclusive. MR. SIMMS: No. MR. BAKER: You do not? MR.

SIMMS: I said I simply made an er'ror and it should be (vii) to (xvi), not (vii) to (xvii) MR. BAKER: In order to withdraw the amriencli'nerit that was already made to Clauses (vii) to (xvii) would require unanimous consent. MR. SIMMS: I d i d not make an' ai'nendmnenI: tc) (vii) to (xvii) MR. BAKER: Hans ard ' will s how that your a me n dine iii:. wa s (v :i.

i) to (x v "i.

I) inc 1 u si v e. L32 November 28, 1989 Uol. XL.I No, 42 R32

V 4 MR._SIMMS: It wi.lf'lso show where I withdrew that. MR. BAKER: It cannot be withdrawn unless there is unanimous consent of the House. MR._SIMMS: If you want to argue that, we will go to (inaudible) on this matter. MR. BAKER: I would like to say to t h e Opposition House Leader that we are willing to help him out of the tough spot he was in, the mistake he made .I know members opposite are fairly concerned about this, and are not too happy with the Opposition Leader for 'making such a mistake.

We are willing to agree that:. the amendment be withdrawn and instead substituted (vii) to (xvi) inclusive, if that will help the Opposition House Leader out of the mess he is in. In that case, it would make a perfectly acceptable amendment For discussion. MR.CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for - Burin Placentia Nest. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, I war to 'nake a few brief comments on this Bill as well, to follow through on a couple of things the Opposition House Leader had to say. I want: to say very sincerely that the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs is too large for one person to handle.

I want to say, as well, that the Minister, who is doinq his best under the circumstances to deal with the Department of Social Services, is, in my opinion, a very competent Minister, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. TOBIN: No, I had a council in this 'morning and the Minister met with them for an hour and a half. He only had an hour to meet with them, but he stretched it to an hour and a half. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

TOBIN: The Minister was in, and he gave his full thoughts and his co-operation to the council who had the meeting with him, a n d I certainly commend and thank him for 'that. ' He was very genuine and sincere in his dealings with the council, and I want to say that. At the same tune, let Tie say that while I believe that, I also believe that it is impossible For one man to be able to administer' the Departi'nent. For one person 'to be able to adrriinister it is very, very, difficult. No other Cabinet Minister over there has the responsibility the present Minis ter of Municipal and Provincial Affairs has .

He is a very dedicated Minister, in my opinion, but I think, Mr. Pr'einier, the res ponsibility he has , with the amalgamation of other Departments that have gone into that one , in terms oF Provincial Affairs, Youth Services, the Arts, and everything else that is there, is absolutely iiiipossibi.e. Right now the Minister is not able to do justice to his Departmrien'L ; he is 't:ry 'lng har'd and the r'e is nobody over there rriore capable of doing better.

He is trying hard to do the job that has to be clone but, at the same time , the Department is too large, it is by far too large, and the people of Newfoundland and Labrador are not L33 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R 3 3

getting what they deserve from the Department of Municipal and Provincia]. Affairs, The Executive staff in the Department over there, I would suspect, if you look at your Minister and your three Assistant Deputy Ministers, they too would be overworked, particularly with amalgamation that is now corning into play. The amalgamation issue is something that is going to take up their time as it relates to - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. TOBIN: Is the Premier giving out stars this evening? AN HON. MEMBER: He is hearing confessions. MR.TOBIN: It is a long time since I was to confession.

I did not know that was the way you used to go. But anyway I want to make the point again that the Premier is not doing justice to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. He is denying thei'n the basic representation that the Department should provide as it relates to a Minister, a Deputy Minister and an As sis tant Deputy Minis ter being able to do the worl<. I think that all of us who have been elected, have to realize the pressures that the various councils put on us from time to time, and justifiably so. That is what we have been elected to do.

They want us to make efforts on their behalf to set up . meetings with the Minister. Trying to set up meetings with the Minister is very diffucult and you have to call them back and say "I am sorry, I have tried 10 'fleet with the Minister but to no avail," AN HON. MEMBER: Tell us something new. MR. TOBIN: Okay, Mr. Chairman, L will say something new, but I am not sure the Member for Plcentia would want to hear about the calls' I got from his District over the last few days. MR... HOGAN: Name them. MR. TOBIN: Yes, I did so get calls froi'n your District.

I could narrie four from Southern Har'hour, people do not qualify for anything and they cannot get hold of you, you AJ,'1.i not even answer the phone, That is right The Member For Placent..ia will not answer the phone. They phoned me t,o know if I saw him around anywhere, a n d I said YOU know :t can he is sitting across from me. But, Mr. Chairman, I tried to resolve their problems.. MR._HOGAN: Who were they? MR. TOBIN: Very prominent Liber'als, very promninant Liberals . Mr. Chairman, I think he is talking about the issue that elected Joe Price, :i.s that right?

T h e riijht that t h e Liberals had a plan and it. hack—fired, Mr. Chai r'man, and Joe Price got elected and the MemiDer, the Minister of Fares try s old buddy, went down to defeat. Do you remember that, Mr. Chairman? I arri not going to say too much to the Minister of Forestry, he was pretty good to me today. Now, Mr. Chairt'nan , that Mei'nber up there looks familiar the GovernrrieriL l'louse Leader I do not know who he looks like, but he looks familiar. Now, Mr. Chair'man , I s toad up here today to pa rti cipate L34 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R34

in this debate and to give credit to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. I think the nan is trying hard, I do not think he stops for a minute, I believe that he works hard, but at the same time, the man h a s Loo much responsibility. It makes no sense whatsoever, for the Premier to try to keep his Cabinet down, by not providing the services to the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador. Sure, if one of the pages is available, the Member for Placentia is trying to get a jug of water. I just want to make that comment today, that I honestly believe the Minister is trying hard, but he is overworked. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman; Amendments have already been moved, I say for the benefit of the Minister of Forestry, Mr. Chairman. I want to take a few minutes to speak to the particular Amendment on Clause 6, subclauses (vii) through (xvii), just 1:0 make a point. Now, Mr. Chairman, we are under no illusions on this side of the House that the Amendment will be defeated, we know the Governrrient has the majority and the Government will carr'y the day. But the fact of the matter is, there are two things that need to be said here.

First of all, it is quite proper, in the parliamentary s ene to debate, clause by clause, any Bill before third reading. The major debate on the principle of the Bill is behind us , so what we are doing here today in Committee is going through each of the particular clauses . that make up the whole of Bill No, 29. So there is no point in the Minister getting huffy or gruffy or gr'umpy or anything of that nature, crooked or contrary or nasty or sookie, the longer he stays like that, the more difficulty he will have, and he had better not provoke us.

There are forty—thr'ee Clauses in this Bill, we are at No.6, so there are thirtysix or thirty-seven Clauses left and if we wish, Members on either side of the House, if 'Lhey wish, can debate each one of those Clauses, and under the rules must debate j u s t the clause that we are discussing . So the Minis ter need not get on any high horses, Mr. Speaker, and try to persuade us not to do what is our right to do if we wish to do it. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, the point that needs to be made to the Minister of Amalgamation is that this clause points out the very weakness in this Depar'Lment, The v cry we a k n e s s of 1: hi s D e ° a r 1:110 11: is pointed out in this clause. The Departinent is too large, Mr. Speaker, It is a catch-•a].l for everything.

The Minis 1:er is the Minister of Miscellaneous, If you c o u 1 d no 1: f i rid a w a y 1:0 ci u in p something into some other Department, if it did not fit in some other Department when they were goi. ng through this amalgamation pr'oces s internally WIt Ii in Go v er rime n 1: , 1: he idea mu s 1: have been to durrip it into t h e

I) e pa r t rn e n 1: of Mu ri I c .i i° a 1 a n d Provincial Affairs . If it did not Fit anywhere else, Mr. Speaker, dump itin here. Just look at some of t h e things that. are in t hi s par t i c U 1 a r Do p a r tm e n '1: 1: ia 1: the Minister is responsible For. We fully acknowledge that the Minister ought to be responsible for Municipal Affairs, arid ther'c- is nothing wrong with the Minis 1:er being responsible for Housing so that the Department would be Lhe L35 Novemnber 28, 1989 Vol XLI. No, 42 R35

Department of Municipal AfFaIrs and Housing. But just look at every thing else, Mr. Speaker, that is in this Department. There is everything in here but the Kitchen sink. It is just as well to take the kitchen sink, and make the Minister responsible for kitchen sinks as anything else, becausy he has got everything that you could mention under the sun. That is the only thing he could handle. You know, in this particular clause, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister is responsible . for the encouragement of cultural activities in the Province., including the supervision of Arts and Culture Centers, the Arts and Letters Committee, Public Libraries, The Historic resources of the Province, the Provincial Archives, Mr. Speaker. By the t:irne he gets around to reading the Act, Mr. Speal<er, the Minister IA1111 be a candidate for the Provincial Archives. By the time he gets around to figuring out what his responsibilities are,. Mr. Speaker, the Minister will be archival material himself. He is also responsible, Mr.

Speaker, For all museums established and operated by the Province. He has to go out to Bonavista now and look at the museum out on Cape Bonavista, he has to go out and check the Mary March Museum in Grand Falls, the Searrians Museum down in Grand Bank, he has to go all over the Province, Mr. Speaker. In addition to dealing with three hundred thirty something Municipalities, he has also got to find time to do this activity. He is responsible for archeology, ethonology, fauna and flora, Mr. Speaker, he has to go down to the streams now, and in on the bogs and the marshes, not with a four wheeler, Mr.

Speaker, but he has to go in by hoof, he has to hoof it in. He has to hoof in over the barrens and the bogs now and check on the flora and t h e fauna, and see if that is prospering, Mr. SpeakerZ About the only thing that will prosper under this Government is something that does not need any help, and can survive on its own. You will not do it in rural Newfoundland with the help of the Minister of Employment, Mr. Speaker. So, he has to put a bag of fertilizer on his back tiow, Mr. Speaker, and trounce in over t h e bogs and the marshes and make sure that the flora and the fauna is growing and prospering.

That is ludicrous, Mr. Speaker, and that is how ludicrous the responsibility that has been given to this Minister is, Mr. Speaker. He is also responsible fort he encouragement, the promotion, the establishment, the deuelopmnenL, the coordination and implementation of amateur sporL, fitness and recreational activities For the benefit of all citizens of the Province, and those other services and programs that the Lieutenant-Governor In Council may by order prescribe. So, Mr.

Speaker, after the Minuister goes through his regular workday of dealing with three hundred thirty something Municipalities, after he gc:es through his regular workday of supervising whether , we are going to bring in the Irish Rovers for the Arts and Culture Center next week, or whether we are going to bring in Raveen, whether he Is going to allow Review 89 tU proceed . By the time the Minister gets back from walking acer the hogs and the marshes, by the time he gets back from supervising the artifacts in Lhe Seaman' s museum in Grand Ban 1< , and by the t:irrie he V L36 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R36

goes down to the Colonial Building and checks out all the archival material that accumulated during his absences out on the bogs, when he gets all that done, Mr. Chairman, he then has to go down to the Y and play basketball. He then has to go and meet the people involved in recreation, amateur sports, and fitness. He then has to go lobbying to try to get a senior hockey team into St. John's. He has to meet with the Broombail Association. He has to find time to get down to Twillingate and pros ent trophies at the Dart Banquet.

Those are all the things that these various parts of the community expect their Minister to do. AN HON.MEMBER: We will have to clone him. MR. RIDEOUT: He will have to join that Clone Clyde Club that they started just outside of Toronto recently. MR. SIMMS: We can get the Member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) to give him a hand because he is not doing all that much. He opened a few Happy Trees and things like that. MR. RIDEOUT: I say to the Minister he could invite the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island (Mr. Walsh) to go on his behalf.

Please take him to every speaking engagement you can find an opportunity to take him too around Newfoundland and Labrador. As long as, he speaks on Meech Lake. MR. EFFORD: Your time is up. MR. SIMMS: No, by leave. Yes, come on. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairmen, I say to my friend for Port de Crave that the Chairman will send a note, I am sure, to the Speaker advising me when I have a minute, or thirty seconds left.

Then, once the Minister has done all that he has to also be part of the encouragement, the promotion, the establishment, the development, the co—ordination and implementation, subject to t h e regulations of services and activities relating to the youth of the Province. Now, Mr. Chairman, after he has the museums, the ar'ts and cultures, the municipalities, and the flora and the fauna and the archives, if he has any time left after fitness and recreaton, he is then responsible for youth. Ho :is r e s p on s lb 10 for em p 10 y rn e n t opportunities for youth.. I remember the Member For Stephenville (Mr.

Aylward), when he was the youth critic, asking me when I was Culture, Recreation and Youth Minister, the programs that we were bringing in For youth unemployment, and all of that. in the Province, so the Minister has to do all of that. He has Sc) many things, all of which are important. The point I ann trying to make, Mr. Chairman, is that each of those activities are ]fflpc) rt ant and they deserve to have Ministerial time made available to the various groups. They deserve Ministerial leaders hip and t..I.(:y deserve to have their coricer'ns listened to by a Minister. I am not particularly concerned who it is.

The Minister is a fine Minis Ler but the problem is he has too much activity. He has. too many responsibilities. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! L37 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R3/

The hon. Meinber's time is up. SOME HON._MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon the Member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I could not resist rising to my feet and making a few comments, especia:lly since the second in command and the first in command rose to. their Feet and made some comments about our Minister. A Government of the past that was so ineffective in its own management, in its own. Administration in the Province, has the audacity to stand up and try to tell us that this Minister does not have the capabilities of ad ni n is t er in g his own Department.

Now, what give you the right, when you cannot even manage an effective Question Period? You do not even have the ability to come in here and stand up and he able to ask a decent question that would give some enthusiasm to the gallery.

In fact we just had some students in From Carboriear, I think it was, the Democracy Class,1 and the only concern they had was:, how come the Leader of the Opposition has to be so Petty as to be . shouting back and fbrth those slurs across the House of Asseinbly, and we had to s-it down, and then he spoke about all the Members OF the Opposition and how they really could not eifectiveiy ask one question. You have the right to stand up h e r e this afternoon and talk about the Minister - of Municipal and Provincial Affairs and say that he does not have the capability of admnstering his own Department.

Now far be it from ten years of downward trod in this Province for you people to be able to stand up and tell this new Administration how they are going to manage and how they are going to run the affairs of their own Department, We are witnessing now a crisis in this Province that somebody has to take the. responsibility of doing. Now we are blamed, six months in Administration we have the total blame on our shoulders. Eight months? AN HON. MEMBER: The 5th of May. MR. EFFORD: Eights months. The 5th OF May, probably I cannot count.

But i: dc not think you can take May S to November 28 and make eight months out of it. Now if you can you have changed around the calendar and that is another Lhinq you have not done very affectively. You cannot even count. Now here -.is how you do it, one, two, three, -Four, five, six and -then comes seven. You cannot make eight out of that. Six and a little bit.

But seriously, -ten year's and six months you have been in Administration and you have the audacity to stand over' there and tell this Government that first OF all, you have messed up the the fishery; secondly, you have messed up the whole provincial affairs the whole municipalities in the Province of New -IOU nd i and a rid Labrador.

And then you have a former Minister, I do not know what he was the Former Minis -ter, OF because I spent a -Few months in his Department -trying to Figure out what he was doing , I believe at least four timr:!s he has s I:ood to his feet since this Bill caine before the House, and he kept repeating over and over aqain. L38 November 28, 1989 Vol Xi.I No. 42 R38

MR. TOI3IN: A quorum call. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! There are fourteen Members in the House. There is a quorum in the House. The hon. the Member for Port de Grave MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is quite obvious, if they cannot count to eight then they cannot count to fourteen. We will excuse the Member for Grand Bank. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The hon. the Member for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, there were eleven Members in the House when the quorum call was called. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! There is a quorum in the House. The hon. the Metriber for Port de Grave may continue.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, we on this side have absolutely no doubt in our minds where the future of NeWFOU ndland and Labrador lies and especially, Mr. Chairman, the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. The youth, the recreation and the culture and the municipalities of this Province are not going to do without, with the Minister in his position, They did without For ten years and let me assure you it is not hard to go around the Province and find out where the people of this Province are lacking in direction.

Now we can say there were a few Districts under the Former Administration who did not do without, but most of the areas in the Province, Mr.

Chairman, f o r ten years, the Port de Grave District•F or one right in the center of a Tory District did without' for fifteen years, a n d especially in the last ten years In fact the community of Bay Roberts, which has one of the better town councils in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador as far as administration from the mayor's level and the council ' s level is concerned, literally had to come in here on their hands and knees and beg for years, and years For assistance. What did they get, Mr. Chairman? 'You are from a Liberal I)istrict and you cannot get any money . AN HON. MEMBER: From where?

MR.EFFORD: From the for'mer Government and you know full well what we are tanking about. But under the new Minister and the new Department and the new Gouernrrmentt hat. does not happen any more. That is the problem with the Leader of the Opposition and all you people over there because you cannot accept the fact that there is some F a i r n e s s a rid balance qo]nq across this Pr'c'vince and you k now it is going to pay off in the long run. AN HON. MEMBER: L39 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R39

(Inaudible) the Liberals. MR FFFflP1' No, no. Make all the false accusations you like. AN HON. MEMBER: that about recreation grants? MR. EFFORD: Recreation grants, When you spend approximately $4 million - I do not know the exact figure, but let us say over the last Len years at about $400,000 per year - about $4 million in the last ten years being spent on recreation grants in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and 90 per cent of that goes to your own Districts.

How in the world can you say now it is unfair, that some of the Districts that have doneL without For ten years, at least even try to get the catch—upi amounts. It would take us another' ten years to catch up for the mismanagement of the past. Now, if that is not fairness and balance,, you explain to me what it is about. At least, this year, Progressive Conservative Districts and Liberal Districts got money. In the past, it was one—sided, P.C. only. AN HON, MEMBER: Is that so? MR. EFFORD: Uery much so. In fact, Ministers on this side of the House told it publicly.

The Minister of Public works at the time; the former Minister of Public Norks, and Consumer Affairs, told it publicly. He was speaking For the Government he was representing. He told it in public meetings and to the news media; he told the Mayor of Upper Island Cove, If you do not vote Tory, do not even talk to us, you do not . get anything. And that was the policy. Nobody on that side cart deny that. Now, you see a policy where both sides of the House are treated on a fairly equal balance. The only difference is, you have communities on this Island that have Snot seen any recreation money for the last ten years.

Now, what are you supposed to do? AN HON. MEMBER: Is that so? MR.EFFORD: That is so! That is a Fact. MR.TOBIN: (Inaudible) MR. EFFORD: Your District. MR._TOBIN: (Inaudible) when you were in there. MR. EFFORD: If I had my way , y o u r Di. s 1: r i c t would get nothing for the next twenty years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: Millions a n d millions of dollars went in there when everyone else did without, and you still want more and more and morO, Give us a chance to catch up. Fairness and ba].ance gives us a chance to catch LI p. AN HON. MEMBER: How much did Fogo District get? MR.

EFFORD: Nheri dd [ hear Fogo disLrict got $2 million? Was that nol: last year? - AN HON. MEMBER: Yes S L'I.O November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R40

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Chairman, it is lucky he is Was that not right, $2 million? not going to have the purse strings, that.is all I have to say. MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible) recreation (inaudible) MR. EFFORD: We are talking about the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, we are not talking only about one particular thing. This spring, did you not get $2 million, when an adjoining Liberal district got $135,000. AN HON. MEMBER: I cannot remember that. MR. EFFORD: So, Mr: Speaker, if that is not treating the Opposition fairly, what is it? MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia West, on a point of order. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to take up the Member's tune, but I am sure he did not realize what he just said, that Burin - Placentia West should not get a cent for the next twenty years. I wonder would he like to apologize, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, we are talking about a District the Member for Fogo just said he was not being treated equally and fairly, when he got $2 million, and there were two or three surrounding Liberal districts that, altogether, did not have that amount. What do you call fairness and balance?

MR. SIMMS: From the same Department? MR. EFFORD: We are talking about t h e Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, where we have a super Minister who is quite capable of doing that j 01:). We know you are very envious because you know you could not run y o u r Department. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The hon. Member's time has elapsed. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Merriber for Grand Barik MR. MATTHEWS: 1 I cannot believe, Mr. what I just heard from for , Port de Grave, the said a n d how personal towards certain Member House MR. CHAIRMAN:.

There is no point of order. The hon. the Member for , Port de Grave Chairrrian the Member t h i ncjs he he be c ame s in the MR. EFFORD: No, Mr. Chairman. Those of us who a r e trying to arrange meetings and so on, between the M:i.nister and groups L41 November 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 42 R'ti

from our Districts, councils and sports groups, recreation groups, arts groups and so on. capable of what, Mr. Chairman, is the question, capable of what. AN HON. MEMBER: Come clean. MR. MATTHEWS: That is exactly what I am doing.

Now if the Member for Exploits over there should finish his lunch that he was having in the House there about ten minutes ago, perhaps he should get his dessert now and a little liqueur and then settle back and listen because a lot of the town managers, for instance, from my area of the Province have had difficulty with communication with the Department of Municipal Affairs, and - AN HON.MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR._MATTHEWS: We did. We even had a cheque printed, we even had the cheque printed. At that time it was a Liberal District, by the way, a Liberal district.

Fogo, Fortune—Hermitage, were Liberal district at the time. Bonavista north was and still is a Liberal District. And the cheques and the commitment was made to those Districts who were then Liberal. But that is beside the point. T h e problem is now the election is over, the election is over, and we have a Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs that has more responsibilities than the rest of the Cabinet put together, That is the point. AN HON. MEMBER: He is rriore capable. MR. MATTHEWS: I am not saylng the man is not more capable..

I will be the first to say he is very capable, but Now my point was, before I was so rudely interrupted by those armchair speakers over there who never get up from their seats to speak in this House, is that a lot of the town managers, and mayors and so on from around the Province are having difficulty communicating with the Department of Municipal Affairs. It is. difficult enough if a Minister only has responsibilities for Municipal affairs some 310 or 320 Mu n i c i pal i t I es € r o in a r o u n d 1: he Province who are almost on a daily weekly basis afier somebody in Municipal Affairs about something.

I mean that is the realities of life, and we all know that. And to try and slough that off and say it is not so, it is not true. And then the Minister has got sport and youth and any others who have served in the portfolio of culture, recreation and youth, I can tell you something; It was often looked upon as being a junior portfolio in Government, but rriy hones'L belief is that if you could survive in culture, recreation and youth, then you would survive in any Department of Government.

The d e m a n d s were horrendous, a n d . having spent thr'ee years in that particular Department, I know that the demands were horrendous. The groups that were lined up on your door, the invitations to go to all kinds of groups and associaL:i.on meetings, and annual meetings were unbelievable. Arts banquets, Dart banquets and everything else, it was unbelievable. rue Minis Ler of Municipal Affairs has got all that thrown in on top of his Municipal Affair s r e spoils i b I lit i.e s as well as housing. AN HON. MEMBER: S L4.2 Novemrtber 28, 1989 Vol XLI No. 4.2 R42

1 Soccer banquets. MR_MATTHEWS: Lots of soccer banquets.. I never used to go to any of them, I used to send someone else, because I did not enjoy soccer very much as you all know. AN HON. MEMBER: You were a dirty soccer player MR._MATTHEWS: No, I was not dirty. I was very fair and clean, a very effective soccer pl,ayer, very effective. Almost as effective as I am a politician, but not quite, I have had more successes in politics. A shut-out as a matter of fact in politics.

Almost a shut-out in the last election, and I expect that this tirrie there will be a shut-out in the District of Gr'and Bank in the next election. A shut-out. AN HON. MEMBER: How much did you win by? MR._MATTHEWS: Not quite as much as you. That was the last time though, we have to look forward to the next time now. AN HON._MEMBER: I am not running next time. MR. MATTHEWS: No, I understand you are not running again, I understand that and I am sure there are very good reasons For that which we will probably <now, I guess, before too long, but I can understand you saying that.

But I am looking forward to the Member sitting over in the corner, to be ver.y honest with you, as he threatened to do in the last fE-ui weeks, because WE are expecting -that we are soon going to get Lhe r'eport card on the Member. I understand that it is going to be a good report, so that is why he is so chipper today. He is anticipating a good report, and I would say watch out then when he gets the good report, I would say the Premier better not tell him to be quiet, as he did today, and he got very annoyed with that, but the question of course - SOME HON._MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. MATTHEWS: That is right.

I know you got annoyed, and so you should you know. I gave up junior red cross in grade seven when you used to wear your junior red cross pin and pass the cap. That is what we are getting into here now, Junior Red Cross. But anyway, getting hack to the question of what happened to Fogo, is the big question, with recreation? What happened to Fogo? What happened to Harbour Breton with recreation? They were supposed to have a stadium and an arena which you cancelled, and you went on 1:0 say that you are not at the purse strings. And t said thank God he is not at the purse strings. AN HON.

MEMBER: How much were you going to spend on the arena? MR. MATTHEWS: :t do not know how much money went in the arena boy. . That was all in the program, the rnaj or recreation progr'am . It was a commitment over a Four or five year period. We brought in the new program, I am not sure, It think it was something like a million, a million something a year, a i'iuil.l.lon and a half a year for Five years , I L43 November 28, 1989 Vol