Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY -sEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND · 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MAY 18, 1976 Number 66 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

May 18, 1976. Tape 2752 The House met at 2:00 p.m. ~~r. Spealc.er in the Chair. MR. SPF.AKER : Order, please! PRESENTING PETITIONS: l'ffi. SPEAKER : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Rll - 1 HON. E. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, I 1rlsh to present a petition which is really in two parts, one of which I shall present and the other which hy mutual arrangement between us, the gentleman from St. Barbe(Mr. F.. }!aynard), the Hinister of Manpower and Industrial Relations 1will present. In all T am told this petition is sij?:nerl by approximately 2,300 people.

These people live in the communities served by the Flowers Cove Nursing Station. The area of this Station includes communities in my district and communities in the 'district represented by the gentleman from St. Barhe. I am told that about 1,700 of the signatories of this petition live in the Straits of Ret] Isle district, part of the old district of St. Barbe North,and about 60n live in the district represented by the gentleman from St. Barbe. The prayer of the petition,! believe, }!r. Speaker, the point of it is quite succinctly stated.

I thjnk perhaps the best way I can state it to the House is simply to read it. "We, the people of the area served !,y the Flowers r:ove Nursing Station, being the communities from Ferolle to Eddy's Cove East - and of course Ferolle is the most southerly of those communities. F.ddj' s Cove East . is the more northerly - submit this petition representing us to - it is addressed to me - the Leader of the Opposition, member for the Straits of Belle Isle,for presentation by him to the House of Assembly.

IJe feel dissatisfied lrlth existing medical facilities and, as tve understand, have been on the priority list for a new building for the past three years. On March 5, 1976 at a meeting with two officials of the Ministry of Health it became apparent that despite repeated government promises there is no possibility of a new facility for our people for the next three or four years. This would be six or seven years 7 9-8 't

Ta;>e ?.752 RH - 2 X~ • RORF.RTS: from our orir,inR] ref1uest. V<e Und this unacceptable and request the ~overnment to reconsider their allocation of monies for this year. This areR :l.s growing rapid]y in population and our existing facilities are and have been inade.,uate for some time. l-1e can ~•ait no longer." ~lr. Speaker, I can support this petition and I do so whole-heartedly from my personal kno'"ledge as 1-rell as from what I have been told by those responsible for providing medical services to the area. The Flowers Cove Nursing Station is operated by the International Grenfell Association.

There is a doctor stationed there now,and a number of midwife-nurses and a number of puhlic health nurses. There are not available to the people of the area the types of facilities which are available at T::ocldickton anrl are available at Port Saunders and the so-callecl pub]ic 11ealth centres. The Port Saunders facility is now under a separate board. I understand it is being expanded into a form of hospital. I helieve the people of Flmvers Cove have a valid point. I think it is a perfectly proper re.,uest. It is one which I made at some length on thE' estimates of the Health nepartment, the Minister of Health.

The minister ann I engaged in a dialogue at that time. He assured me then, assured the committee then, Sir, that planning of the facility at Flowers r.ove 1.rould go ahead this year. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is welcomed news. nut that in itself is not very much news because we surely do not need a lot of planning. He know ~•hat type of facility should be made available at Flowers r.ove. The model is at the Port Saunders area or the Roddickton area. All that ••e need now -we know what we need. The I.G.A. are willing to provide the medical staff and the support staff.

All that is needed is the money. 11\e money is not so much on current account, as I understand it, as it is on capital account, $1~0,000 or $200,000. It is a lot of money if vou do not have it. It is not a lot of money when we contemplate the scale of expenditures which the minister and his colleagues are contemplating in the !1ealth field or in the capital account field generally. 7985

~lay 18, 1976. Tape 2752 Rn - 3 MR. ROBERTS: Well,! support the request , Sir. I do it without any hesitation. I think that as these people say in their petition, and as I say it is signee! by about 1,800 people in all the co111111unities in my district, Savage Cove, Eddy's Cove East, Bear Cove, Pine Cove, Green Islancl Brook, tower Cove, Sandy Cove, Flowers Cove, ffiloal Cove F.ast , Nameless Cove, Anchor Point, Pond Cove, Blue Cove, Pi~e~n r.ove, Black Duck Cove, Forresters ~oint and Anchor Point agaiq, Sir, the prayer of these people is a just one . It should be granted.

They are entitled to these improved medical facilities. The Minister of Heal t h agrees that they should have priority. All we need now, Sir, is action to back up the words. I present the request, Sir. I do so with the strong and whole-hearted request that it receive a sympathetic bearing and that action, Sir, not just planning, but that action results and results this year. Thank you. AN HON. MEMBER: Rear, hear! 79Rn

May 18, 1976, Tape 2753, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, I understand, has a petition associated with it, or he is co-sponsoring the petition. MR. ROWF.: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MAYNARD: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if I can speak to it? Yes, there will be ample opportunity. Yes, if I could, Mr. Speaker, speak in support of the petition presented by the bon. the Leader of the Opposition and at the same time, if it is agreed, present the part of the petition, if you will, from the communities in the district of St. Barbe.

There was a little bit of a quandary at the time the people wanted to present the petition because of the two districts involved, but I think we have sorted that out. The main thing, Sir, is the fact that they have made a request, and a very valid one.for improved medical facilities in the Flowers Cove area which is administered by I.G.A. or as part of the I.G.A, territory, but it serves the people from Shoal Cove West in the South to Eddy's Cove East in the North.

The petitions that I have here from the communities of Shoal Cove, New Ferolle, Reefs Harbour, Brig Bay, Bird Cove and Plum Point are from some 560 people, which I would think are most of the adult population in those communities because they are relatively small. As I ?Ointed out,the request is a valid one. I talkerl to my colleague the Minister of Health about it and he has expressed some sympathetic concern for the request that was made by the people some time ago,and for the request that is being made now. He realizes, I think, the totally inadequate facilities at Flowers Cove, and I feel certain, Mr.

Speaker, that the petitions nresented by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and this one will get some priority in the Department of Health programme for this year. At least I would hope so, and I will certainly keep working on behalf of the people in that area for some priority to be given to the improvement of medical facilities in Flowers Cove. 7987

May 18, 1976, Tape 2753, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in support of the petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition and also by the member for the district of St. Barbe (Mr. Maynard). Sir, the reason I would like to support the petition is because it involves the district that I had the honour of representing at one time before it was snatched away from me through gerrymandering legislation. However, I will not get into a debate on that. Shoal Cove to Plum Point is now in the district of St".

Barbe, and Blue Cove to Eddy's Cove is now in the new district of Strait of Belle Isle. Sir, from the very day that I was first elected to the old district of St. Barbe North, I had enquiries from the people of that district to get something going with respect to renovating or establishing a medical clinic in the district of St. Barbe North. The question, of course, at that time was whether it should go in Flowers Cove or Plum Point.

However, after a number of representations had been made to Doctor Gus Rowe,who was the Minister of Health at that time - and I am sorry I do not have the correspondence here in front of me now - but Doctor Rowe, as Minister of Health, did write me,as the member for that old district, indicating that once the medical clinic at Port Saunders had been completed and had proven to be a success - because they considered it a bit of an experiment at that time - but once it had proven to be a success they would start immediately and install the same type of an installation, the same type of a medical clinic in the Flowers Cove area, basically by renovating the old nursing station and adding on another wing as the diagnostic area and the medical clinic as such, Now, Sir, this request is long overdue.

It was promised for the four years that I represented the district, and if I read my colleague correctly, it looks as if it is going to be a few more years before they - 7988

lay 18, 1976, Tape 2753, Page 3 -- apb MR . ROBERTS : .fR . ll.Otm: That is the way the people there feel. That is the way the peo~e there feel anyway before that medical clinic is put in the Flowers Cove area. Sir, there is a great distance between Port Saunders and St. Anthony, and there are a great many people and a ~reat many communities that need the services of an adequate medical clinic which they do not have at the present time, throuj1!h no fault of the I .G.A. They are jus t working in obsolete physi cal circumstances, and I would like, Sir, the government to start action on this immediately.

The Port Saunders clinic has proven to be a success, if it was considered an experiment, and I 1.rould submit that it is now time f or the government to start to move on the basis of the Port Saunders experience and start renovating and start buildi ng a good modern medical clinic in Flowers Cove for the people of that part of the coast because i t is extremely, badly needed. Sir, I give the petiti on my whole­ hearted support. MR • ROBERTS : Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for LaPoile. 79 9

May 18, 1976 Tape No. 2754 NM- ~ ~~ - -N_A:ARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the Jrayer of both petitions. I think the prayer is identical presented by the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Maynard) and the Leader of the Opposition, the member for the Straits of Belle Isle Olr. Roberts). Sir, as the speaker who just took his seat indicated, there is quite a distance between Port Saunders and Flowers Cove but I think what you have to look at in that whole area, Sir, is that you have a hospital on one end in St. Anthony,and a hospital on the lower end in Norris Point, and there is quite a distance batween the two hospi tala.

Even though they are able to do a certain amount of work in Port Saunders, actually it is the in between area that you have to think about, the distance between the two hospitals, and I think this is what creates quite a serious problem. The next thing you have between St. Anthony and the hospital in Norris Point is the medical clinic in Port Saunders. I do not think you cou1.d re-ally slif diet .. tile t1oweors ·eowi Clinic at the moment is very elaborate,although they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. I can understand why the people there are so pessimistic in tlutt area, Sir.

Their expectations and their hopes have been aroused so often by this administration and nothing has happened. that they are now feeling very pessimistic about the whole thing,but I do hppe, Sir, that as a result of the petitions that have been presented today,and one by a Minister of the Crown, a gentleman who no doubt has some influence in the Cabinet with his colleagues, that the prayer of this petition will be answered this year and the people in the Flowers Cove area will get this badly needed medical clinic. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Health. MR_ COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I think it must be obvious to all hon. members that there seems to be some collusion here with the Leader of the Opposition and my colleague and seat mate, you know,getting me in a bit of a squeeze. However, Mr. Speaker, I would like to 7990

May 18, 1976 Tape No. 2754 NM- 2 ~. _C_O_L_L_I_t:[S: reiterate what I said during the debate ·on my department's estimates, and that was that there is no doubt that that particular area of the Province, Flowers Cove and that general region, the need is unsurpassed anyWhere in the Province in terms of health care facilities. That is ackno*ledged bv government and as I indicated when the estimates were being debated that we will be making a start.

We have ~ot to do some planning,of course,first but 1 can eive the assurance to both hon. members and the House that we do reco~nize the need and a start will be made this year. HR. SPP.AKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. HR. STRACHAN: - ---- --- --- Mr. Speaker, I wish to present a petition on hehalf of sixty residents of the Community of Black Tickle on the Labrador Coast. If possible 1 present the praver of the petition and then briefly explain the situation which caused the oetition to arise.

The prayer of the petition is,''We the undersigned residents of the Community of Black Tickle, Labrador, Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, hereby request Labrador Services Division to establish and operate a retail grocery store in the Community of Black Tickle, Labrador or the alternative of providin~ financial assistance to gome interested , capable and responsible individuals or groups within the community to establish and operate such facilities'.' "This aopeal is a result of the communitt's only store ceasing oper ations this summer and we stron~ly urge Labrador Services Division to take the necessary action to resolve the situation which shall ensure continued service to the community.

Considering the fact that with the present fishing facilities and the proposed expansion as well as other developments being financed and operated by the division, vre feel the division should become itliolved in this very important community matter which much be dealt with immediately:• In explaining the situation as recorded here, Black Tickle until recently was a community which could not quite make up its mind 7991

May 18, 1976 Tape No. 2754 MR-:_~~.QiAN : about being resettled and in the last four or five years has decided to remain in the site ~~here they are. NM- 3 Black Tickle is an outside place, as we call it in Labrador,and because of being an outside place it is therefore very close to the fishing grounds and last year had an extremely successful year with a small fish plant being built there with the assistance of Labrador Services Division. The only storekeeper there, Mr.

George Hudson, ~~ho has come from outside of the community is now leavin2 the area, leaving Black Tickle due to his need to have his children educated and is moving into Happy Valley- Goose Bay and as a result the store will nmr close. The community feels that something must be done vis-a-vis the supplies in the community and the supplies to the longliners which operate out of Black Tickle.

May I indicate that in the petition, more than one-third of the people could not sign their names through no fault of their own, because of lack of education facilities in the past, and so it should therefore should be very apparent that they have little ability to be able to fiandle the finances of operating a year-round store in such an isolated community in which one has to be very careful about inv.entory and amount of goods or SOME RON. HEMRERS : Oh, oh: MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a right to be heard in silence. 7992

Tape 2755 IB-1 Yes,the hon. member does. MR. SPEAKER: 111'. STT'AC:HAN: The people have therefore approached the government throuJ?h Labrac'or Services Division because Labrador Services Division t!vo to three years ago became involved in the community for a reason which is in pre at debate in Labrador South because they do not under­ stanrl why Labrador ~ervices Division which handles native conununities hopped over the communities of Pan.dise River and Cartwright and moved :Into Black Tickle.

But whatever reason it was Black Tickle is now a native col111Jlnnity and therefore Labrador Services Division have gone in there and built up the facilities within the community and the fish plant an<' now they are concerned that t;he store is clos:lng and that the people cannot therefore themselves operate the store. I thjnk the part of the petition which should be looked upon more closely is the alternative of providing either financial ass:l.stance or of provi.ding some management experience or ability to the people of.

Black Tickle so that if there are some people within the community who can operate the store· they could be therefore trained and assisted to get the store underway rather than for Labrador Services to move in and unlock and take over the store and run it as an outs1c:le operation. So T think that the petition says for itself there that there are one of t~'O aJ ternatives, either Labrador Services Division move in or possibly throup,h the Dept. of Rural Development there may be some method of encourap.ing responsible people '"ithin the cowmunity to ta"e the necessary training in order to operate the store.

I ask that the petition be placed on the table of the House and ref'errerl to the department to which i.t relate~. I'P. SPllAI:'E?: Before recognizing any hen. member I would l:lke to c:lrar,• the <~ttention of the P.ouse to the presence in the galleries this afternoon of nineteen Grade K and XI students from Buchans Jnteprated Figh School lNith their teacher ur. K.Oolomount and I knolN all hon. Members join me in wishing that their visit here will he an intere~ting one. SOl'E HClll . ~'E~EPS : Hear, hear! 7993

l"ay 1~, 1976 Tape 2755 IB-2 ~~. SP~AKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. •m NEAPY: Yr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition presentee' by the hon. gPntleman from Labrador (Hr. Strachan) her'""""• "r. ~peaker, I tmppose nobocly else in this bon. House,as the bon. members knows,is ~ore fa~ilar with the situation in Black Tickle than myself.

It was I , when I lvas Minister of Social Services and P.ehabilitation that fought tooth and nail with Ottawa to try to get Black Tickle recognized as a native community under the special agreement between the provincial government and the Government of ranarla whereby assistance is granted to native populations. If there is ever a part of Newfoundland, Sir, that is neglected it is Southern Labrador. It certainly is not in this Province the native population is not neglected. If anybody i.s neglected it is the residents ~.ilo 11ve in Southern Labrador.

The first visit I made to Black Tickle, Sir, I got the shock of my life l~hen I saw the conditions under which the peop] e ,,•ere living and I vowed then and there that if there is any way that T could expanrl the Northern Labrador Services branch of my department to fnclude,nnt only Black Tickle, but other co=ities in Southern Lnt-rador, that I would do :f.t. It was after I vacated the lJ.epnrt~r.ent thnt the inclusion of lllac!c Tickle became a reality .

I t:Iet Fr . lludson and T talked to, I think there were tl~o hr<'thcl ·,; there l'>'i:. the time, two brothers wiln ~mre teaching there at that particclar time. nut I tmderstancl since then there has been a hou:;int, development take place there and a f:l sh plant.

Now, l"r. ~peaker, this petition raises some very interesting questions ahout Lahraclor, Northern Labrador and Southern Labra<'lcr as ?r1Vate enterprise versus a government opera ten bus:ll\e~s . v1e have l'eard both viel·~s expresse~ in this House and I am inclined to ~hlnk ~'r. f-peaker, that :-lorthern Lnhr11.tlor Se-rvices i.s the best agency under ..-..h1.ch to operl'\te these businesses. Not only rlc they pt·ovi ce people "'ith the:lr suppl:l.es, with their groceries and their food, che.y 7994

•·ny 1~, 1971\ Tape 2755 IB-3 '"l. NEAPY: Also supply the fishermen and they buy the fish and they marke t tbe fish. They clo just about eve.rythi .ng in the community. Now you can :lrr.ue againf;t that, tltat that destroys in.itiative in the conmnmity. 1\ut believf' I"C . ~·r. Speaker , the res earch that I dj d, tJben I was in thllt departl!'e .nt,on this whole matter indicates that if you did not h:wc :-lorthern L11l'>r~clor :::ervices operating these coll!lllunity stor e s that the cost nf 11vinp, '"vul d he comrletely ont of reach of the people. rl'1vate 7995

May 18, 1976 Tape no. 2756 Page 1 - mw Mr. Neary. enterprise just could not function, could not operate in some of these communities. So, Sir, I support the prayer of the petition tn either way, whether it ia the department moving in to operate the store, put a manager in there like we have in all the other communities in Northern Labrador or send somebody in there to train peop~e to operate the business.

Either way would do, Sir, but I believe that something should be done immediately, I understand from my hon. friend that there is a crisis developing and that by September the gentleman who operates the store there now is going to move out, move to Happy Valley where he is going to continue the education of his children. But, Sir, I certainly would favour the Northern ·· Labrador services expanding its operations into Black Tickle, and I whole-heartedly support the prayer- of the petition, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I will acknowledge the receipt of the petition on behalf of the hon. gentleman, We have already had very brief discussions on the matter. And I would like to say that in consultation with my two distinguished colleagues from ~ particular part of Labrador we will be haVing a look at the situation, not only the particular case,but the generality of the problem and the challenge as well. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I certainly support the petition presented by the member for Eagle River ~.Strachan).

Knowing that particular part of Labrador as well as the whole of Labrador I can appreciate the situation which is now arising there when the private supplier or store operator moves out. Mr. Speaker, it is a note of interest the way in which the Northern Labrador people, and now it is growing into the Southern Labrador people, have had to get their supplies from Summer to Fall and Fall to Winter. It 7996

May 18, 1976 Tape no. 2756 Page 2 - mw Capt. Winsor. began early away back when the Hudson Bay Company used to operate the supply stores there. Prior to the Hudson Bay Company, of course, it was the Moravian Mission, and then t~ev faded out of the picture and Hudson Bay came in and took over the whole of the operation of Northern Labrador.

Then back in the Commission of Government days it was the Department of Natural Resources,who after the Hudson Bay Company felt that they could no longer operate at a profit they, too, decided to pull up stakes and move out and leave- the unfortunate people of Labrador to the mercy of whoever might see fit to take them over. So, Sir, at the beginning the Hudson Bay moved out of Hebron, Nutak and Nain and Hopedale, and the Department of Northern Labrador Services moved in and took over the operation of those depots.

Then, of course, as time passed the government felt that it had to move further south, and they extended their services to Makkovik and Postville and now just recently, a year or two ago,they have moved into Black Tickle. MR. STRACHAN: And Rigolet. CAPT. WINSOR~ And Rigolet by the way, yes, as well as the indian side of North W~st River. So I can foresee the day, and it is fast approaching, when the government will have to take over all of the Labrador coastal areas, because, Sir, as the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has stated I do not think the people can afford to have private enterprise go in there.

The cost of living would be exorbitant, and it is doubful very much if the people of Labrador would be getting the same advantages as people from the Island area. God knows, Sir, when the Hudson Bay Company was operating down there p~ople were just barely given an existence. Then, of course, on the Southern part of Labrador year after year our Newfoundland merchants 7997

May 18, 1976 Tape no. 2756 Page 3 - mw Capt. Winsor. used to go in there. I recall George Dawe who used to operate Black Tickle,and Bartlett, Harold Dawe,nomino, and Hiscocks at Smokey. Oh, there was a great number of them. But they only went in there during the Summer months. And the unfortunate thing was they left them with a bare existence, with a few pounds of flour, a few pounds of tea and the bare essentials that a person could only survive on. And then, of course, they returned back and went back again the following Spring.

This sort of thing must chauge, and it has got to change, Sir, in order that the people -of ·southern Labrador now be placed in the same - and given the same privileges as the people of Northern Labrador. This question of Eskimo and Indian - well I do not know, Sir, I have never seen it determined yet who is an Eskimo~r who is an Indian. Indian is much easier to define than an Eskimo. And it was along those lines that I think the decision was made by the federal government to take over and make grants to the Northern Labrador services. Sir, I ~ould go on for hours about Northern Labrador.

I know it like I know my way home. But I do feel obligated, and I feel, I think I speak for all of the members on this side of the House,that we wholly support the petition _ presented by the member. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: 7998

Tape No• 2757 ~w- 1 The hoh. Leader- of the (1pposition. 1,1€' ll, thank you, ~~r. Spealr.er • I wonlcl like to say i ust n r·Tonl or two in support of the petition which my friE>ncl fram Ear,1 e River (1<r. ~trachan) presented to the House. T ·~ill not touch on the various points raised by the other spenkers in supnort of th~> petitionJ all of whom I thott?,ht mnr'c- s0ne very :Jorth-while and very valuable points, T.ct me sily siJ"n1y, ::;ir, that first of 1-111 I support the- pt"tHior. T h~ev<" som<" pers('lr .al knowled~" of 1'.1 ack '1':1 ckJ e.

T.11-,. snr>C' nf t!ll' mPr.h.:-rs nn th1 s side, nncl inri<"P<! :1 f T am nnt "11 st1.l·<"n tl,<' hnn, member for T.aJ'<"q r: (~~r. "'"rary) "tnil T n ... ohA-,..,J.y v1<;1t~(l tl,"r" torPt'-Pr 0n ?. heoant:lfu] aftPrnnnn tu('l or thrP.e :'""r"' r1pn '·Yh"'n r-re Pen~ c-nf!Rr,ed in a democratic exercise involving t;,c citizen~ of T.nhra,lor ::outh,ancl since then I became very much ·seized of thr fact tl1nt the pecple of Black Tickle ancl the people of t:wt rart of t 1 H'~ Lnhrador C:0nst are very much it' need of rmhlic ""rvices, improver::. nuC,l ic sen.-ices.

It goes rdthout saying thttt they rJcn~rve the~. 'l'he prcu1l<'r nroT, lc"l c:1usetl becau3c i1r. George Hudson, \-1i10 by t 1Hc H~v is from 1'-l_m,are i.n my district, in the Str<'i.ts flistrlcl, ir. l'l.nvcnp; from rllncl: Tickle to Goose !lny will have to be solved because it is unthinkable that the people of the CoMm1mity nf ;;J.:J.cl· Tickle, w1,1ch is a community that hns "rmm recently l>eciluse. it has rccejvcd considerable amounts of public supnort, most of it frn!ll the- Covernnent of r.anada through the Tnr1 L:m Fsldl':o agreement, 1¥hich exj_sted- indee<l that !s ·a ] e~acy of the hon •.

Tack J'ick<;>rsgj_ll, t~at particulttr agrePlllent p;ofng b:1c1• to 1°11, I helicvc. 'Gut the prol,~_el'l must be solved but in so doin!i I wonld ~ocrmend to the p;overnment, the minister responsible I believe is the ''in-!.stcr nf SocinJ ~<"rvices, I am sorry, the Actinp, Hinister of r.ehnhiJi.t<Jtion, hut if thnt department is nholished,as we are told it js tc> he,thl"n T. unccrstand t'te service ~~ill be restored 7999

~ay 18, 1976 Tape No. 2757 NH- 2 ~-f'R. ROBF.RTS: to the Der>artment of Socia] Se:!:Vices.

I am not so sure that is right or wrong,but be tha:·. as it may, the J'Oint I wish to mal~e is that I think the time has come uhen the ·govern!'1ent srould heed a request that !las lonR heen made by the people on the Coast of Labrador, not only in lllack Tickle but in I:opedale and in Rigolet- well now Rigo] et still h~s the bay in there- hut T-Iopedale and }fakkovik and Davis Inlet and Postville and Nain and that is that the - well the Northern J.abrador Services Tlivision should remain as the retail merchants, the only merchants although there is a private store in Nain is tl-tere not now? MR. PECK'FORD . MR.

RORilRTS: MR. PECKFORI) MR. ROBFRTS: \ffi. STRACHAN : MR. R0BERTS : Yes. There is a private store in Nain - Mr. Hayward Tiaynes • Hr. Hayward Haynes. There are two. There are two in competition.

Hell that is all and good hut the ~TLSD is the primary supplier, the prlmary ret a 1.1 s"'rv1 ce in the area for the reasons lvhich my friend from ~ogo (Captain Winsor) outlined and I think the time has come, Sir, to make the '!\'LSD a cotranercial operation, by which I do not mean it should become a profit making body hut I mean it should be taken out from under the direct control of a p,overnment department and should become presumably a Crown Corporation with its headquarters in Goose Bay or on the Coast and should be allo'i'ed to operate with an agreed budget, with appointed officers,within a regular and proper degree of flex~bility.

I know it is a matter of considerable concern, and I have run into it in my trave:ls on the_ Coast, Sir, ann I have run into it in conversations with peonle who live on the Coast, a matter of considerable concern that the m.sn to purchase their case of. h~nm: or ~ol':ething it has to go through the Department of 8000

T:t(H~ ~ !o . 'J.7 57 ~'! ' - 1 · ~ . R 0 nr.n~~: Supply, or t~e Cov c~~ent rur ch~sinr Ar,cncy now. in CJ:nctly t!tc- ~ill'!~ way as i.f they were lookin g f or twen t y "l!.lc-s or ''lir~roo.cl :1:1:! trc>rc purcbasin<: t:tnt service tns t e."\rl. T t 't:inl· t 'tnt s ince i t is a col'll'IIP-r c:inl nrer.tttion it n:~yc; 1 t., "n:• . !1s T •.:l''lP!'$t;m· 1 it tltn monC'y t 1Htt cnmPs in e nc!-1 "'~"'lr n:wn t 1•c- cnst -:.~ '\OO-\~ .

T :tm not sun~ :!.f" 1t cnv,.rs t't" :<:>1 'lrv .-o~t<: 1:-u:: ~ t dol"!l ~«I tts ~o:ny on th.'lt hru;'l~ and t:t~>rC' is rvt>r y rt>::~sor to >'n'·e i.t a conunorci::ll opnrC'ti.l'm """ ';("t' !t ' IT"'. '•'~tnt .'l.l'>out tf there is a dcfic:ft c>v'!ry vear? P·:'•rl'\ tl 1 r- ru t~' ' ';l"r "~r-1.. ...,:ttC"'! , r.:~rnt,r.h t" '"c n5.~i -;tcr ' :l <'R t il"l:ttn ~ : ::·" i~Ur .. "\e ..,t'nr-y ~ 0"' ~r:tcc ~ .... 1 i""'\."lj."t"" t.hf" ''o··.-:i.,;:: COSt~ :tS "'ell . r am no t s ure of that .

But t h'! fnct ro~\Bl.ns t'tat it n,,.- r~t(!::; ·1:: n CO"'""~c tal o:-<-rat i on , Peopl e !;C' in a1:rl !Juy ~ · tc ;r ::ntu'< :mJ ··vc·r;t'•i::r nl se . ' 'ell people arc not s:tti.s ~i. ,.,l t· :t' • t:lc :<<'lec t!o r of :;oo:'s t',e:: ~et . T!tC'y :tre nn t o;:~tisrr. r l · ·~ t h t'1r :'-I)' in ~ ~htch it Ofll"rttt c:; . Tt is l'Ot '<uf q ,C" l.cmtly rcl'f)On:-ivc to l':;t:-l.ct C(.)nrlitions .

Indeed in some ':<" tr.'·c- ··'•-,L rl:r.·v ~.·en• ~ ive n and l i ke i t or not. nl"Cl!"l'"' OD t!·e C:o~st or T ~1 hraclor llOI'' ' Si r ' CXJlP.Ct, ·sl t!o! r. :1 rc~'1or:lu~" ''cr. ::-cc:, t f" 11:1Vc .:tccc:;r: to t:l!' S"lr.IC type o~ f"lc:llltlc-:: :1:; ''t'C'"l" <'lr,..lll,. - ,.. i.n t.'l1.~; '!'r"lv~nce. And one or t·"··· .:Lc•t•:: ,.;,· ('nl!l'' tnl :c: tl t :~t •mu::.u very nuclt h~·lfl to :tchtcve l 't<r: orn•l 1.$ vc:ry muc!1 tltc po'lnt of. this petj t'lon :tnd th.:tt t:; co m.~! ,.. t:lc ':1.'"1 :1 ~orr.al nrcr:ttio:tJ close:- to o. coii'T1C.rcinl o;>e!'ntion .

Set up o rrnwn r.o:;-<?r:t t'lo01, !:."lve t!-Jc- rli r cctl" l:S nnpointc:d hy t 1le ~ovN·ru~,·nt, rpr>r :Jtc in t:u:• sa~" l 'nY, s:~rr.c t yf'e of flc::il·ili ty ns thf' Rvd:-o ' ,"''" o:- tl:c t:<>rmutc-r ~:!::vices , (,ot!~ of ••!1ic" nrc Cr own r(tr='<'-~tlo-:t engaged i 1• CO:'V1E'rc inl functions . T t'li nl· it WO\tld be u "'"HI ~·· ! •1~ for t h.<' ocopln of I.allr adnr, :iir , .1nC:: l f ('P.l all that 1:; t ' l" ,.,,,'(n :tim c-f th<' ':C>rt !tt'rn Lahrado r St-tvi.cc~ l'livi..<;ion_ SD OI

11ay 18, 197~ Tape No. 2757 HR. ROBEPTS: l~e should take NLSD out of St. John's, Sir, and put in bacl ' O!l the Coast. Every single aspect of it should be on the Coast of Labrador. Those are the only pP.ople that ~lL~l'l serve, Sir. 8002 NM - 4

H"'y 18, 1976 Tape 2758 IB-1 'T'hey serve trem ,.rell by ann large hut thev can serve them far better if the locus, t~e- heDrt and tl1e hrain of the operation was moved from St .. Tohn 's to the r.oast of T.ahrac1or. I support the petition, Sir, and in "'" <'oinr. T coi"menc1 that sur.P.estion to the min:fster. It is not necessarily a neH one hut it is a very good one and it is one that should be acter1 upon and ncted upon now. Hear,hear!

NOTirES (IF I'OTI0N: 11on. nnister of Yunicipal Affairs ann Housi.nr;. ~·r. ~penker, T r;ive notice that I ,,rill on tmnorro~1 11sk leave to :lntr<"c'uce a hill, "An Jlct To A111encl The llrhan And J!ural T'lanninr. Act." (T\i]l No. 60) ,..., ST'JCf.KE": The hon. "inister of Health. V". P. C'<'LLT !!':: ""r. ~peaker, 1 give noti.ce that I will on tomorrow asl: J eave to introc1uce a h ilJ , "An Act Further To Amend The Netvfoundland l'edical r.are Insurance :\ct. II (BilJ no. 58) ~NSHFT!~ TO n~Tf'S"'I0NS I'()'P PH!C . NOTICE HAS BEEN CI''EN: The hOI'. •Hnister of }lanpower and Industria] ?elations. Hr.

Speaker, I have the ansl~er to some of the questions that have appeared on the Order Paper. I have a problem here.! do not re!'lel"hE'r l-·hpn the bon. Premier Has ans,.,ering auestions a fe~1 c1ays nr:o whether he inc11cated that jf I answered all the questions I l-'ouJd f>et thrmm out of the -rabinet or v1hether I Hould get thrown out of the r.~tb-lnet :! F '! die not ans\~ er all of the!'l. 11,-.lf 11nd play -It safe. So I am g:otng to answer Tf the J,on. mel'lbers uant to take dot-:n the numbers of the routine question~. These :~r.e quest-!.ons aske.:l by the hon. mel'lher for. T~>~iJlinf!<~te (''r.

Sl"alJwood) nos. 359, 160, 361, 353, 19, lR, 355 anr1 .156 ancl the answers to questions asked hy the hon. member for T.aPoil0 ('<r. ~ ·< eary) No. 674, 65!1, !i03, 607., 59?, 574. There is rut example nere, Mr. ~peaker, of duplication in asking questions. ~rooao~y non. members should get together on it. 8003

Nay Ill, 1976 TP.ep 2758 IB-2 ~11>. ~~AYNARD: l')uestion 357 asl-"ed by the ron. mel!'ber for TwiJHngate (Mr. Smallwood) referred to the names of the people on the Workmens Compensation lloard. The question was, "T·Jt..a t are the n8l'tes of all members of the hody '!.•hich replaced the Workmen's rompensation Board, their !lalaries, etc.?" "t>m:!ch of course does not have an answer because there ,,,as no hoily rep] aci.nr, the Workmens Cl'mpensation Board.

So •·le assull'e that he ~ms talking about the new :members, the new commission anrl "'e answered in that manner. f.t the sa~re time the hon. member for J.aPoHe (}~r. Neary) as ked question no. 6(,5 which asl<ed for the names of the Horkmen's rompensation Board Members. There is also Quest:lon 164 asked by the hon. member for TtdJlingate U'r. Smallwood). !Tow many trade unions are registered vdth this department? !1m,• lt'any members these same unions havee How m:my of. the saj(! unions are affiliated with the Hewfotmdland "'ederation of Labour? TIJ.e answer is there are 100 registered un:lons in the Prov:lnce.

The :membership, 35,365. of the unions are affiliated vrith the Federation fC'r mel!'.bership in the Fe deratjon of 32,245. There is a question related to the port:l.on of the Speech from the Throne give on Ti'ebruary 26, 1975 regaroing the development of a rnanpm~er poJjcy. The manpower policy is being developed by this <!apartment in conjunction Pith discussions that are ongoing with other 1'rovi.nces of ran ana and with the federal government. Naturally m:mpo"·er po] :l.c:les have to tie in inter-provincially and inter­ ~overnmentaJ.ly. 80(}~

May 18, 1976 Tape no. 2759 Page 1 - mw ~m. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: Hr. Speaker, in reply to a question oa yesterday by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), which he raised before and which I said I would find the information for~ I can indeed confirm that there has been an investigation down at Farm Products Corporation both here and in St. John's. The investigations were started in October and the reports came in in February. The case in St. John's was pursued and is now in the hands of the Department of Justice.

The case in Corner Brook was investigated and resulted in a court appearance and that situation has now been closed. But there was indeed an investigation in respect to alleged pilfera~es at both . nlRnts. MR. SPEAKER: ~. ROBERTS: ORAL QUESTIONS: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, my question, Sir, is for the Premier and it arises out of the lead story on the CBC local newscast last night which I assume he saw. It contained an interview with Mr. John H. Shaheen, and I am wondering whether the government have had any indication from Mr.

Shaheen, Sir, that he is in possession of a sum of money or has access to a sum of money in the order of $500 million or $600 million which he can make available and will make available to pay off the indebtedness of the Come By Chance refinery thus enabling it to reopen and to resume operations under his corporate control? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, we have had a general comment made to the effect that the money is available. We have had no official knowledge to that effect. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. MR, SPEAKER: A supplementary, MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, has the Premier either directly or through the agency of his colleagues or through the agency of his officials set afoot any efforts to find out whether in fact this is so? Because if Mr. Shaheen does have this money, as he said quite clearly on the television last night - 8005

May 18, 1976 Tape no. 2759 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. we all saw him, and we were all interested - you know, it will · solve a lot of problems and will enable the refinery to get going and make things very much better for everybody concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that if and when Mr. Shaheen has the finances I am quite confident that he will be making the necessary approaches to the government. MR. ROBERTS : MR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: But none have been made so far. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, would the han.

Premier indicate if there are any other proposals,apart from the one that we heard about on television last night,from the Dennison Mines Group or any other group who are interested in opening the oil refinery? PREMIER MOORES:·Mr. Speaker, regarding that question, the only one of any significance was the Roman Corporation and Dennison Group. Their chairman was down two months ago, I guess, and at that time they expressed an interest, a~d were going to do follow-up work, but we have had no contact with them since. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. HR.

SMALLWOOD: Would the Premier tell me if it is his intention tonight between 7:00P.M. and 7:30P.M. on the CBC to listen aud watch Mr. Shaheen and see what he has to say? He is going to be on CBC for a half an hour tonight. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I did not know Mr. Shaheen was going to be on CBC, but certainly given the opportunity I will watch it with pleasure, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROWE;: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Justice in connection with the Public Utilities Commission to whom, I think, they report to the minister or they report through the Minister of Justice. Sir, could the minister SOOfi

Hay 19, 1976 Tape no. 2759 Pag~ 3 - mw Mr. Rowe. indic;ate whether or not it is true that the Newfoundland Light and Power Company and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro have presented briefs to the Public Utilities Commission some weeks or months in advance of the actual hearings themselves? MR.. ·sl'EAKER: The hon. Minister of JustiCe. MR. HICKM.!W: I obviously cannot answer that queation, M'r. Speaker, becl!,use the IIQard of Commililsioner& of PUblic Utilities do not disclose that kind of !~ormation to me. They are a quasi judicial board who operate without any government interference.

If government has a case to make or want .s to protest any application,as we have done in the past, and as we are doing right now in one particular case, we retain counsel to appear. So I have no knowledge of that. I will say one thing that based on twenty years E!:lqlerience, both as the min:f,ster, not responsible for the bo$rd, who reports to thie Bouse on behalf of the board 8007

"ay 18, l!J76 Tape No. '17(,0 '!!'' -· 1 •rr,. HTCICHAN: and hl'farP that as a practicing lawyer. ·"nJthinl2: that board has ever done under the chairmanship of Mr. Clarence H. Powell is of the utmost propriety. 'H1. n.np}\: 1\. supplement11ry. ~!1'. SP!'M~. r:l': A supp] el'!!"ntary. l'r. Speaker, on almost a point of order. I dic1 not Hish to indi.c[l.tE' any iTJcompetence on the nart of }~r.

Powel 1 in this connection and the min:!ster rP.alizes that. fl supplementary, l!r. ~neaker, Hould the minister undertake. to find out uhether or not the ~e,~founfllanr1 and Labrador ~'oHP.r Corporation anrl the Light and Power Comnany had indeed !'l:t<k hri.E'fs available to the Public Utilities Comnission and w~ether or not t''"' public \~ere given notice a month or so Jn advance so they could have thE' same opportunity to prP.sent briefs to the co1ll1Tlission before the hearings were actually held. ·· ~. ~Pl'.A!\J'R : ·~. CWlSl\IE: The hon. '!inister of Hines anc' l'nergy. ><r.

Speak0r, you l:nc'w the hon. gentleman. T think,is mixed up. 'Tow I can only speak fo:- newfoundland ancl 1.ahrador Eydro. But the NeHfoundlard and T,al,rador Hydro r]j d not submit any hrief to the r.oard of r.ommissi .oners of Pul> 1..tc Hti lit :i.e~'<. 'T'h<>" folloHecl the nornutl practice ar.t1 they ~uhmitted thE' evii!ence of thctr chief witnesses. MR. ROWE 'ITt. C)tO<;T\TJ': T'rior to the ~ea.ring? Yes. '~'hat is presented prior to thP. hearin~ for th!' T'ubl i.e l'tiJitlrR Commission to examinr and that is oresentcd to the people representing r,roups opposing the nppJication.

They are given it to rPad and r;o over before th<> hearing is h<' J fl so thct t 11ey can cross !'Xamlne nnd do their thing. So it ir: not 1-riefs, it is evidence of what the witnesses are goinr, ~" ~nv before th<> t:ommission. ~ snnn1 ementa~·. A supplencnt:~ry, ''r. Speaker, does P.ot th<> n:l.nister t 11inl ... thnt ]1rcrmsc of t 11:'lt nom.~l, so--called normal,situ::lt:lnn that 8008

TnpP ~To. 'J.7f" >!H -- 2 t~e averare consuner, the normal Joe is put :1t a ~:t<Jti.nct <'if'<>.nvantagE' in that he is not given thl' sal'!c nnpqrtnntty to rr~>. sent such infcY'III'Ition, expert ~vidence 0r hr-!r>f~ to t~(' "uh1ic 1Tt:!1tti.f's Cnmmtssion? And a second

part is anxious to answer the question-what is the government noing to nssls 't thr .1verag!' consul'ler financially or othen1ise to nal;e prescntntlous before t~\e rublic Utilitie~< Commission in vietv of the fact t~lat " r.

Powell has indicated that t\ey are not getting ren::esen~ati.on from the ord~.narv Joe ns he st<?.te<l, and also in view of C~lC f;oct thnt the Canadi:m Consumers Association o[ ranac1:\ l1.'1VC' i.w'icnte<'l that t'H~y it~'lt cannot affor<'l to call c:mpcrt · . .;Ltnes'lr'!;, 1:twyr.rs, accountants and 1o1hat have you to protect the consumer .. ':T' .• '.JFJ\".Y: You fellm•s recomendeJ that. ''T' .• P.OT'J',; no n0t tvorr;r Rhout us fellows. He can take care of ourselves. H'!"' .• SPEAKEn· ~:.e !1on. :finistcr of ~ines and r:nergy. 'T .• Cr.tn<;BIT'': •:r.

Sneaker, it is rather a lonr. question. 1t ls more likl' a speech. Now the t-rhole purpose of the exuert \·~i.tnesses for t'1e pP.titinners submittine their essential points of tiH··'.r cvJ<.lencc in Hritten for.n to the Public Utilities Commission hefore the hearin!': ls to £Rcilit.1te t'·10se who tvant to onpose the rate increase. T'ecause the eYidence is also give.n to the latvyers or representatives aPJ:lenring for onposing r,roups. For example ''r. l'illin,, :'one, •rho is the solicitor for the- MR, J.

WINSOR Ar !'Sti.mabl c lr!t,'Yer. ·~. r~nosnn:: Net-rfounrllanc '?ederation of 'iunicipalit.ies t-rould - - r('ceivc tlds natcrial vher- it is deposited t-rith the I'uhlic lltiJities Ccmmissicn. Then, 'lr. SpeaJrer, when the w:!tnesses are c..,_lJ<"d on the r Lrr-: t <1ay of t>w 11eari.ngs, oprnsir._g counsel are fully briefe~ on what thev are r:oing to say. They have had two or three or four weeks to chec~ :;md t:JC'n can cross examine them with that much more <tdvantage. 8009

"ay 18, l07f- Tape No. 27M N'l - 3 'Itt. CR0SJHF: H the evidence was just given th~t day, and it 1~ the firs: time they had heard it, they would he nt a ~isndvantap.e.

So the whole r rocedure Lq to help and facilitntc those who are r,oing to oppo~P. the rate increase . 'lo~ l as f:1r as the consumers are concernerl any consll!11er w'lo c.,r. r,ct t he tirle off and wants t o go down to sit in at tlte l'uhlic llti.lities hearin2s,csn do so . f.s far as assis tance for the consul'\ers is concerned , the Roard of C:ommi~sioners of T'uhlic tltiliti~s is the r e to protect the public . 'lr. . 'l'FI\RY: \'ou hnve p.ot to be a lawyer . "'t. f'ICK'•AN: 'to. That is nC't riP,ht. 'iF.

CROSiliE: To go in and sit in the rooll' and lhten vou do not .,avP. to he ~ la~~cr or anythinc elsP. n person with two ears . '~'hat b all. 'l:; require <!. You j u~t hav(' to he That is nll that 8010 ,. ,..

Tape 2761 Ill-1 l'T:! , C'"C1SIHJ\! The Boar<' of \.onmd.ssioners of Public Tltilities itself is there to protect the puhlic. That is the purpose of that tr:!.bunal, that · ~ oarc1 .• It is to ensure that there should be no increases other than as justHiet:' . under the Jaws of the land and that :!.s the:fr job to protect the consumer. In adcUtion the Federation of Mun:fcipa~ities and other p;roups often appear to oppose, a consumers group clo. l.,Te are not provi dinp any sped al ass :I stance. It does not appear to us that there neerl he any !'pedal Assistance provided to the!!'.

You know, that is the ~enerctl structure as it has been for thesf' many years. t"T'. SPF.NillP.: The hon. rrember for LaP aile (~'r. Neary) followed by the hon. l'lE'.ll'her for Port au Port. PT' . N E~. r.Y : "r. Speaker, I would ltke to ask the hon. the Preroier if :!t is correct that the Workrnens Compensation Board have been rranteo peTI!'i ss:!on hy the govern'!llent to erect their mm builcling? '"1'. SP FAVE~ : The hon. the Premier. P1WVJF.r. V('1()"ES : Yes, t'r. Speaker. ~~. Nf.A~Y: "r. f:peak.,r, a supplementary.

Hould the han. the Prcroier inrlicate if th1s lJould not be a good golden opportunity for the povernment to take aclvP.ntage of the T,•To'rkmen"s Compensation, ~m.o ~pnarently tave all kinrls of money on hanc1, t~ke advantage of the si.tu11tion to have the government ask the Vlork'!llens Compensation l'.oarc' to erect a hu:llc1:lng bip enough so that the goven1ment could nt:! 1 ize soMe> of the spare, rent it from the Workmen's Compensation . 'loarcl? PREHIER IOORE!: : The answer :1 s no, }'r.

Speaker. 1~ . <;PEM:El': "'TO"' before I recognize the hon. gentleman I '170nld Hke to caJl to the attention of the House the fact that thirty-five r.rar'e "liT students ft·om Salt Pond Elel'lentary School :l.n the district of Bur:ln are present tn tre House accol!lpanied hy their teachers !'r. r.rane anc "j ss l'oul ton. I know all hon. l!lembers join ll'e in Helcoming them. Hear, hear! 8011

"ay lfl, 1976 Tape 2761 IB-2 ''Tl. NEAJ'Y: A supplementary 'lUestion to the hon. - ¥n. SPEAF~~= I had previously recognized the hon. member for Port 81) Port . So unless he yields,obviousJy, I sha~l have to recognize him. to come hAck. The hon. gentleman may get an opporttmity later ~'!'. EODDEl': t'r.

Speaker, a question for thP hon. 'l:lnister of }lunicipal Affairs and Hous:l.ng. fts the minister well knows there were a gre11.t number of '~e] ls drilled throughout the province last year and cuite a fe,,r in the district of Port au Port. >•y ouest :I on is whether the wells will be provided with pumps this year as Has promised last year. YR. SPEAKYP: 1'he hon. Hinister of Hunicipal Affa:lrs and Housing. ~"'. PECKFO'I!D: ~·r.

Speaker, the majorHy of money voted this year in the f'epartment of "un:lc:lpal ~ffairs for well development or for artesian uells, under the Pater Services Division of the department, T,,f]l go for the r.evelopment of the wells that are already drilled. Specifically :In the Port au Port area,a fairly extensive investigation is betng carried out by engineers of my department to determine the actual costs involved in developing the wells in the Port au J'ort area. tiP.. NF..ARY: J'r. Speaker, a supplementary to the hen. the Premier.

Hould the han. the Prem:ler g:l.ve the House a fe"r more details in connection with th:fs Workl"en~'> Compensation Building?: And if the han. the Premier cannot perhaps his collea~ue, the ~·inlster of "anpower can. •~ere is it po:lng to be locatedl Is it poing to be constructed .1ust to house the 1-'orkmen's Compensation BoarrJ , will there be space available for rent? MR. ROWE: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. ''l'. ~P~AKET!: A point of order has been raised which I must hear. '"" ROWE: I believe, Sir, it has already been established that once th<'.re is an intervening question you 1 cannot ask a supplementary.

T~1at was establ:! shed just yesterday. ''P .• SPEAKE~: There is a point of order, ~hen there is a question and presumably an answer before any other han. members will be able Co 8012

"ay 111, 197/i Tape 2761 Hl-3 MR. SPE!\KEP: ask questions. The point of order brought up by the hon. member for Trinity-1\ay ne Verde (Vr. ~o~te) is whether it :l.s in orcler to asl· a suppJei"Pntary after an intervening question, or question on another snb.iect. •w •• NEAr.Y: To tre point of order, ~fr, Speaker. '~. ~p~~KEP: Yes I wil1 hear the hon. r.entleman. ''P. NF..APY: We had full precedence, Sir, in this session for reverting back t.o supplementary questions?

It only happened the day before yesterday Tt ~HIS heen hl'!ppeninp every day clur:l.n!l' the Oral ()uestion PedocL I oo not see why ~y hon. friend raises it now, Sir. If the hon. r:entJem;m spent more time in the House perhaps he would realize - ~'T' • SPEAT:F.P: tiT' • NEARY : l"lrcler, plel'l.se! Order, please! that there is ample precedence for this in th:ls se,.sion of the House. "" SPF.f..KF.l' : 0rcler, please~ f'lrc1er, please! Tl·e Hon. le:lc1er of the Oppos:l .tion. ''T' . POBEl'TS : ''r. Spel'l.ker, if I may say just a t-•ord on th:ls.

I th:l.nk my hon. fr:lenc1s point, from Trinity-J\ay ne ~1erde (}<r. !'owe), Puling that e supplementary question 111ust follow the maip ']ttP.stion seem,; to me to be a stunning :lns:l.ght :l.nto the <'rvious. Such a rul:l .nr, ~ir, rtoes not obviate or prevent :In :my \eay a stlhseCluent quest :I on on a s:l.milar subject.

The only point of a supp] el"enti'Jry, surely, :1 s that a member ~<•ho wj_shes to ask a suppl e-rnentary is gh•en priority over any other non. members "t-d shinp; to r.et to ~:!. s feet. r-iven the fact that ~~e have seen the development of a supp]e,.,entary question, S:!.r, to an art unclrea!'lecl of, even in the House of r..ommons :In Ottawa where we have had sometil'les ten or f:Jfteen supplel"entaries,I th:lnk f.t is obvious, Sir, that rule of suppl ementari es :! s one thin .g but that the rule must be that ~!hen another member has gained Your Honour's eye ancl has asked I :IR ouest:lon a !"ember ase:;np, a prev:l.ous question cannot then g-et up ancl. by :!nvokinr, the mar,ic word 'supplementary' gain the floor.

Fe rmst C<'l"pete f_or Vour Ponour 1 s eye together with all of the others t-no 1,;~h to a!'lr qnest:Jons. 8013

May 18, 1976 Tape no. 2762 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Government House Leader~- MR. WELLS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think the substantive question before Your Honour is whether one can go back to a topic which has been the subject matter of a previous question. I think the very nature of a supplementary is supplementary to a series, or a question previously isked as part of a series of questions. "But I think there is no rule of which I have heard that prevents a member from going back to the same topic again with another question. I think that is what has happened here. MR.

SPEAKER: The Standing Order I will read it. It does not answer the point of order, but it may clarify some of the matters concerned with it. Standing Order 31 (b): "In the discretion of Mr. Speaker, a reasonable number of supplementary questions arising out of a minister's reply to an oral question may be asked by any members." As I understand it the device of stating supplementary is in order to allow hon. members to pursue in continuity a line of questioning on a given topic.

So that the continuity of seeking information and getting information is not b~~ken or is not broken unnecessarily because the time obviously comes when another topic or another questioner, another hon. member is recongnized. But I think the purpose of it is to allow either one or a number of hon. members, usually in Opposition, to pursue a consistent line of questioning to the ministry. And when a number of hon. members are standing then usually the one who wishes to pursue with a supplementary is recognized before a new topic comes up.

So when an hon. member says supplementary, as long as within the Chair's discretion supplementaries are being allowed, he is then in almost all instances going to be recognized before an hon. member. Now I would suggest that when an hon. member has been recognized and asks a question on a separate topic if and when questions revert to a previous topic while they are in fact in a dictionary meaning of the word supplementary - they are supplemental to something that went earlier - they are not in the technical sense supplementary in that they suggest, they do not require, but in that they perhaps

~ :ay 18, 1976 Tape no. 2762 Page 2 - mw !1r . Speake r . suggest a priority in recognition in order to allow members of the House to continue in a logical order. They are obviously in the dictionary meaning supplementary but not in the technical parliamentary meaning supplementary. So when the hon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) stated supplementary it was my belief that it was a question supplementary to the immediately previous question and not to a question previous to that. I trust that the matter is clear. I would trust so. Is the han. minister up on a point of order? MR.

LUNDRIGAJ.'<: This is not on a point of order. I listened very attentively to Your Honour's rule, and I still was not clea~,Your Honour,wheth~r the ruling was made that a question cannot intervene between a line of questions and then a supplementary which relates to a previous question. Now in other words,to sum it up,I was not sure whether Your Honour suggested that the hon. member's question being supplementary to an intervening question was out of order.

If Your Honour has made that ruling then I understood, and being a new member to this House, that if the rules did not cover, this small, little book of rules did not cover the circumstance then we do ~o to other levels of custom and precedents and authority and so on. If we do,Your Honour, I would want to suggest that there is precedent every single day - MR. ROBERTS: Read Stand:l.ng Order (1) ,"John:' MR. · SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUNDRIGAN: - Your Honour in the House of Commons in Ottawa and in London which justifies a supplementary question being asked after a number of intervening questions. MR.

ROBERTS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I do not want to say very much because it seems to me what the gentleman (rom Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) is doing, unwittingly I am sure, is challenging Your Honour's ruling which 8015

May 18' 1976 Tape no. 2762 Page 3- mw HR. ROBERTS: I thought was quite clear cut and very much to the point. What Your Honour ruled was that a supplementary question must follow - essentially the point taken by the gentleman from Kilbride (Mr. Wells)- a supplementary 801{)

Tape No . 2763 "~~. • 17.01W.RTS : question must f ollo11 the question to '.lhic l' i t is supplementary ~f.!.thout an inte rvening question .!.n l>t>tt~et>n. Rut tha t i t t~as <1uite in order to ask a question on one toric and then a question on a second topic and then a thirc~ question on the first top i c . Bu t to deal directly ·~tt'l the hem. r.cntl eman, he cause he seems to be hept up O!" this, !'t~ndi!lg Orde r ( 1). does not say ~That ~e said it s·a id .

Standinp, Order (1) says, "To nll cases not pr ovided for her ein afte .r ." in this book, our ·!>tanding Or ders, "or l>y sessio n:ll or othe r or<l<-rs ," and we look to Otta'1-1a, Sir, only aftE'r our mm rules and precedents have been consulted and ~ave l'ro ven - :.tR.

LURDRTGhl!l : That is what I sai d .• 'lo, Sir, uhat the hon . gentle!'l an said '"'a!> , "Where ou!" ruJ es :tr c si.!ent " The r e is a great body of t he par li<ll".cnta:: y ;.r act1 ct> of t})is Ho use , 'lr . f.peake r, \~h ich is not cont a:ined jn the fto.ndin~ 0rders but vlrtch is just as 1omch part of t i-c rule!! s.s jf it '·J('t'!'. 11rittP.n 'ln sto.tu t c l a,·1 , Tnl·!' ~or e.~:w-p}c all of our financi:ll pract ice· which 1~ nnt co nt :~1ne tl il" <;t11r<l 'ir. ~ 1'1r dl' r s hut Hh:!ch 'ls, 't th i~;~l: ,~>'"l.l l'~r .~ h , t~1 H~r' ~ em <111(1. :<n nuc::1 '1n that rhcre would 1-e nn nucst~or t!1£>.rl' co!ll :! h" :my c~nnr.~ :tn it unle s s it is done by resolution .

So I thin k the p0int of orcer , Sir , i s ill taken and I submit ~:tat tl'UC ::.s ~o'lnn by nor.f! t~an rap idly . The sen tleman from T.:~l? o Ue ("r . ::"ary) i s certai nl.y e~ t i tl~d to be recogn i ze<! on a ']ues t:ion , and I :u!Ve no dc-ubt he has one , but as I understooc Your l'or.our ' s rulin:: he 5.s not entitled ·to <!Sk a supplementary qur.-: tlC'n. ::.:. m.:1.y ask a <; ;cs::ion on the same point if t~.'lt is v1i.~t :1e wl s!~s tc tio . ·r::. :~A:t'I; ""t: . !'pen!:ar • nay I as!: a q·ue3 tion now? '1l.

Sl'!"_'\\'=': T \-li.ll have to c ispens e wi t'l t he point of order first . t rc:1Jly <!i d not want to s uggest that only this 8017

' ';ty 1 °, 1 'l7" ·~ T.1'1'T'WTr:~'1: ho<lv of rul rs her<' would be the ~overnin~ rt1lrs of thr "ouse. I understand th11t t 11ere are customs ::nvl pract-tces,lJttt t"e reason I rose on the question~if thR.t 1~ t'tc rulinc:,thc>n '''e :,.:We establis 1.1ed eit"er carrying On frn!'l a custn!'1 0r nc,. prcceclcnt;ann nat bcin~ a,.rare of the nrrviNIS co.~ tr>n i_n the "ousc, if in fact t 11at has !1een the nrPvious cus tan ,r~y noh1t of order is totRlly spurious.

If it ls nnt ,then T 1.•ant "our Honour to he verv cognizant of the f;oct tlwt custor~ in ot""r houses permits the hon. member to da ·h~t he 1-J,c_s tryinr. to do. T'erl1aps I will rephrase whnt I said earlier, unn er tFo "ea<linp;s; one, t!le purpose of al 1 mvinr; supplementaries; nncl number t\-ro, the purpose that an hon. meMber states supplementary. Thr.

Tlcnson or nurpose for allmving a supplemen~ary is to permit usually t 1•e 0nnosition, any hon. members in flpposition, to pursue n !.inc of ~uestionir .. <; to t'le 'linistry in a J.of\ica] manner, and not to unnecpssarily 1--tave it interrupted ~dth a question on n. clifferent suhicct anil then 3etting hack to it later 0 ro permit hon. members to pursue a logical line of questioning. ~!o"'' tlH• purpose when an hon. member is endeavourinr to l>c> r0co~ie:e,1 l>y the Chair, the purpose of stat in!'; supplementary, thr puprosP o1' usin~ thnt word "su]Yplementary" is in order in his h0ne thnt he 1-Jill be ~iven -pdority of recognition to continue in thRt linr of questioninp: befon' 11.nother hon. member is recognized ~1ho ~muld he on a different topic completely.

Now certainly the hon. member's '111Cstian, the 11uestion of the hon. member for LaT'oile (~~r. Neary) ls totally in orner. There js no rule precluding his returnin~ to the topic. 1t is totally in order as a question. The point originally raise<' was that by stating "supplementary" he would endeavour to, and in fact did,p;ai.n a ld.nd of priority in recor,nition over an hon. ''"' 111cr '.Nho had been endeavouring to get the Chair's eye for some tine, presumahly on a tot11.lly clifferent subject. Now I do not say that tl1e hon. r;cntlC'M:->.n 1-nowingly did that Of did anything else.

A.ll I run sny:lno- is thnt "'hen I hear- the wnrd ''supplementary" then I 8018

TaPe ~!o . 2763 nrP!'IUl'll" that the hon. gentleman 1.s goin::: to ask a tluestion arising out of the immediately preceding 'JUCStion . NH - 3 I nenn the llon. gentleman ' s question ~ras in fact supnlcment:ar;. Uebster ' s di.ct i onary will verify the supplementary . ~ut in the tec~ical senl'le all I can say is that the Chair, when it hea rs the ~rord "surmlcmentary " presumes that the hon . meuiber i.s then p.oinn to ask a question arising out of the immediately precedin~a· ques tion.

But I am no t suggesting t.}!at it is out of C"rd'er to cnmP. hnck to a topic af ter an interven ing question Per"''nps no11 t '~ill r ecognize the hon . member f'or LaJ'oilc (r•r. 'leary) and then t he hon. member fo r Por t au !'ort ('!r . Roc'c!er) beca use tr<>rl' is tiMe for both to be r~co~1.zcc! . But 801 9

~'"~Y lR, 197f' 'l';~pe 27f>4 IB-1 this is .'l pr>i.nt wh1 c-h caul rl 1 ead to d:!.sputes, perhaps unnecessarily • . ~nrl J trust it iR c~ear 1-1hat J hove said. The ron . rceml,"r for I.a.Po:!J e.

J'T' • ]ITJ':f ny : T fnrr,r>t the question I "~>ras roing to ask the Premier nmr Ro T v-!11 .~F:J.· t.he n,..eT"ier another question. r.roul c1 t~e hon • T'reniet tell tl1e llouse what steps the gover.nT"ent ~>.re go:!nr, to take to ite;1J. tvith this horrihJp s:!.tnAt:!oro TvhPre Pe hc>r 17!'\,(lnO man days 1o!;t lRst )'ear throu~th stril<es hoth 1epal :1ncl i1lep:a1 ;mel this terrihle sitnat:!nn of a ]ass of S25 l'l:!lHon in indu<>tr1a1 C~.ccirlentg, lost til"e TToulr1 t1·p T'rem:!er inilicate vllat steps the povernl'lent The hnn. the Premier. J.s I tmrlerstand it the Labour.

"el:Jtions 1.ct anc1 the T.al1our f:tandarc1s Code, both tl1ese bilJ s uill 11C' co.,inp r•e"ore the n...,nse in this session ~-rhen a lot of these ~~n. :/f. Ar'V: ''r. <:ppr~lcer, I "'" dissatisfierl ~nth tl1e anRver :mel T 11i R1l tr1 r1e1;<lte tl•e !l'atter in the Late ShoP on Thursday. TI1e hon. meT"ber for Port au Port. "r. !':penl•er, a rJuestJon to the hen. >'inister of ' "'r:m:"portAdCJJ1 <'nr1 ro,J"un i cations. As the minister knows, the rNH 1 to Thre<" ~ock rove and Yainland was pid eted this !l'orning, :mrl the pnrcnts i nten<1 to }:eep their chilc1ren f;om school.

The <Jltestjon is w l1.~t is the rin:fster plann:!ng to r!o about the t~!c> c1ef!!anc1s ,.,hich t1;e people have l'la<le, one, that they have a Brader grade their roar'!< ;~t 1 e~st once a veel: ,and that someth:l .nr; be done about the roe1r' b·c-.fnre S';'pteT"ber I'S far a!l upgrac1inp: is concerned. ~T'l: 'Y FT: The hem. ''inister of Transportation and Commun:!.cat:fons . ''T'. Yr'rr:.•·:: ''r. ~peaker, yesterc1a.y the hon. ~~:entlernan who just as keel [1 n•cstion presentec1 to this Asse111bly a petition reCJuesting SOI'!.e 1"'rroveT"ents to the roac1 jn the t'ainland-Three Pock rove area.

As a regn]t of the representation 111ade by the hnn. gentlcman,yesterday afternoon J r,ave instructions that the maintenance personnel of my 8020

" ay ll>., l'l7fi Tape 2764 IB-2 r • ..., MO'PGAN: d~par. tment take some corrective measures this morn:l.ng. Rm~ever upon arriving on the scene with their grader and other equipment the men ~·ere prevented from carrying out the necessary improvement·s by means of the peopJe picketing the road. So I immediately gave :l.nstructions to have the equipment removed from the area. The 'men '"ere sent to the area to carry out their duties to make improvements as required hut the people plcketed the road and prevented my men from do:!.np Ro.

Tl-te policy is,I had inrlicated earlier,that picketing of r.0acs, obstructing traffic, is in no '~ay going to influence this mi.nister's decisions as to what roads get reconstructed or paved this year . Srlr !E HClN . "J::1ryj£1lS: Fea1:, hear! ''T' . S!'F AKET': The hon. Leacler of the Opposition followed by the hon. Member f or Fopo. ''1'. P..ORTIRTS : Yr. Speaker, my question w:!ll be relatively br:l.ef. rould the T'remier tell the ~ouse,please 7when the govern~ent had some indication from vr.

Shaheen - I am reverting to the first topic of the day, so it is a form of ~upplernentary in the t<Jebster sense :1 f not t)le parl iaN!ntary · - could the PremieT tell us when the r:overn!T'ent first had some indication from !'r. Shaheen or from his nssoci ates. as to the fact that the r.ome By Chance refinery l>as in financial cl:!fficulties? ~ ·1hen I say some indication I do not ask for a dny or an hour but I would ask for the nearest couple of months or month or that type of thing. Hhen ditl the government first have some fndicatlon froll' ~lr.

Shaheen that the t::ome By Chance refinery was experiencing financial difflaulties? Hr . SJ"'RI\XE : The hon. the Premier, J:'.RF.''!ER. ~rn o l' E 1': : ~r. Speaker, I think it is fair to say the Hrst indication from t<r, Shaheen was - Or any of his associates. T,Tell it clepends on what you mean by trouble. I mean, it was known the company was losing monev from the beaianina. But in really financial trouble,I do not think we were ever advised by Nr. 8021.

!'ny lS, 197n IB-3 PRP.HlER HOORF.S: ~hnheen or hts III"~"Ociates . Tt was Rt the creclitC'Ir's mectinr in T,onrloT> ~>hf'n it r cnll y came t o a hearl. MR.

SPEAKER.: r ~TY£ • t 'J'Nsnr : The hon . ~e~ber fo~ Poro . ''r . ~peaker, a question tC'I the hon . l'jnister of ~rAT>srortation and r.o~unicstions. rnn thP ~inister inforr the '!ousc 1~1'tcn t he cnT>tr acts fo r the !.oop ~'oacl - and I aJll particularly 1nterestccl :I n t hat pa rt of the LC'Iop T'oacl fro"' C"ander Bay down to r 1 :n:env:ll l e an<! he yon<! to ~!us~;rave Rarbo ur - when those tender s 1vi ll I' <" cal l C'r'? ~e hC'In . r ·~n 1stcr of Tran sportatinn and rommun1catiC'Ins . '"'' ''{')T'r.f':' : ••r. ~pe.,l · er, the hnn. r.cntle!lllln and this hon . l'o11Se were informed approximat ely two weeks ago that the projects which wi 11 he 1 'lcJ uric~, c-r ol-viously include d , in this yea rs a$(reements "-'ith r he fl'rlc r :~J level of r.ovemll'f'nt, the authority has been ~iven my d e rt~ rt~ent to cnll t enders for these projer.ts .

They have hccn c:tller1 accortling)y, arlvert:fl:lcc1 in the local press in Newfounclland . ""he onl y proJ ect that ,,:e are hopinr. to ontain peT"'ission fe>r - ant! yrt t her e 1s nC'I permission forthco~ing from Otta~a -is the Northern l' enin ~: ul:t. 1\\tt nil the project!! that we are hop1nr to >,:we incluc'e<l Jn the 11r,rc emenr oi th fltta~·a hllvl' now been calle<' except the Northern "cninsuln. 8022

May 18, 1976 Tape no. 2765 Page 1- mw •. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lapoile, and this will be the last question. MR. NEARY: I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries, Sir, what the government is going to do to help subsidize the crab industry in Newfoundland this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, there are meetings going on between the Department of Fisheries, my colleague,Manpower, the industry and the union. I am hoping to have an announcement on that some time within the next few days. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Order 3 - Committee of Ways and Means.

The debate was adjourned by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When the debate was adjourned a few minutes before six o'clock yesterday, I had made the major point that I wished to make in respect to this sub-amendment before the Chair now. I had given our reasons why we were not prepared to see the amendment go unsupported and why we intended to vote . in favour of it.

Then I had spoken at, I think, fair length of some suggestions which I had made that I hoped and believed would improve the procedure whereby or through which this House considers the estimates of expenditure presented to it by the Minister of Finance and by the government each year. The House Leader on the government side unfortunately was not in the Chamber yesterday.

He was away I am told on public business but for his benefit,since he is here today,essentially I made publicly the same suggestion which I made to him in a letter some two or three weeks past, and I told the House that he had responded in, I think, a reasonably positive way and indicated there was some possible merit in the suggestions in that if we ever can get a committee appointed on the Standing Orders we would be having a look at this problem. 802J

Hay 18, 1976 Tape no. 2765 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. Well I think we should, and whether my suggestions are accepted or not is really quite beside the point. I think what counts, and what we must be concerned with is the fact that this House obviously under the present rules is incapable of dealing with the estimates in any meaningful or any - I say proper - but any appropriate way.

The procedure which we have found ourselves in leaving aside entirely this question of the seventy-five hours, because there is no possible agreement there . - the government feel that they must have it, and we on our side feel it should not be -but leaving that aside, Sir, the procedure by which we consider estimates has become inappropriate. It may have worked one hundred years ago. It may have worked twenty years ago.

It may have worked ten years ago when I first came into the House and the Opposition only had three members, and often you would see in an afternoon two or three or four departments whizzed through. I can remember at one point the estimates of the Department of Justice when we were in the government - I am not sure if the present Minister of Justice was not then in his previous reincarnation and was the Minister of Justice in the Smallwood administration, the administration led by the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) - MR.

HICKMAN: When I was Minister of Health the estimates went through in less than half an hour. HR. ROBERTS: Well the minister boasts about the fact that when he was Health Minister, which would have been in 1968, the estimates went through in less than half an hour. Well that is the sort of thing that was not uncommon in those , days because the Opposition in those days were not doing their job properly. Be that as it may the present procedure is no longer adequate and that is why I suggested a course of action which I think could work. It would n~ ed to be improved. It would need to be refined and developed.

But I would suggest, Sir, that we should adopt some procedure, and I will leave the point because my time is short. I will leave the point 8 02·i

Hay 18, 1976 Tape no. 2765 Page 3 - lllW Mr. Roberts. by suggesting that we should adopt it on an interim basis, a temporary basis for one year, say the second session of this General Assembly which, of course, is the Thirty-Seventh General Assembly. We should adopt a new rule and let us try it for a year, and if it works then let us adopt it on a permanent basis, and if it does not work then let us go back and try to find yet another procedure. But the present procedure does not work. The House is not well served. The public of this Province are not well served.

And we, Sir, as members should be deeply concerned with both. While I am talking about the House I am glad to see . the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) return to the Chamber from his triumphs of litigation in Ottawa yesterday. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: I gather he had a brief appearance before a panel of the Supreme Court of Canada.

I am told he was on, as it were, for ten minutes and at the end of that his eloquence had convinced the judges that there ~1as no merit at all in his request for an application for leave to appeal a judge.!nent of two judges of our Supreme Court and that ended it. That knocked do~ the last flimsy excuse and ~!r. Cross must now meet his makers without the protection of the han. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall).

But in. any event the hon. gentleman's triumphs of li~igation aside- and I hope it is reported, I do not know if we can get a verbatim transcript or not - but the han. gentleman's triumphs aside, Sii:, I am glad he is back, because I was not here last Friday. In fact I was ln Otta•1a last Friday when he made some words about the size of the House and stated his belief. It has been reported to me that the present !louse of Assembly, which has fifty-one members, is too larse. Well, Sir, I welcome that statement by the han. gentleman, and I am very glad that he took that position. And I am very glad that 802~

~lay 18, 1976 Tape no. 2765 Page 4 -mw Hr. Roberts. he holds to that posHion, and I hope he will continue to hold to it. I think the House is too large, and the only difference between the han. gentleman and me is that he voted in favour of making this House fifty-one members and my colleagues ann I voted against it, and that is when that bill - SOME RON. ME}ffiERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: - the Redistribution Bill, the House of Assembly Bill, the bill to amend the House of Assembly Act was brought into the Chamber last year. I do not think the han. gentleman at that time was a member of the government.

He had fallen afoul of Mr. Craig Dobbin and came out second best on play and had left the Cabinet doing,as I have said before, the right and the honourable and the courageous thing in the circumstances. I do not think the han. aentlemen was in the ministry at that time. As I recall it when the Redistribution Bill, the gerrymandering bill, the bill implementing the principles which the Minister of Justice used to adhere to, when that bill came befor~ the House the han. gentleman, I believe, sat as a private member. I do not recall if he spoke. I have not looked it up nor do I recall what he said if he spoke.

But I do know he supported that bill, Sir, supported it with a heart and­ a-half and supported it with his vote, and that is how I know he supported it . And that is why we have fifty-one members today, Sir, because the present government insisted on it. The Opposition fought against it. We had earlier supported the request of the government that a commission headed up, as it were, by Mr. Justice Higgins, the late Mr. Justice James D. Higgins, that that commission investigate th< feasibility of dividing the Province into fifty-one electoral districts.

When we saw the results and realized what was involved, and saw that the cost involved was so much and things were so difficult for 802G

. May 18, 1976 Tape no. 2765 Page 5 - mw Hr. Roberts. the Province we felt that forty-two was enough and we so said. Well the han. gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) has now come to that position. I welcome him to it. He has come a little late to the feast I realize, but none the less I welcome him to the festive board, to the table as it were. I hope he will adhere to that· position.

I think the House is too large, Sir, and if ever I am called upon to lead an administration in this Province one of the points which I would make to my colleagues ls that we would recommend to the House that ' the House of Assembly reduce itself. It can only be done by this House. Forty-two members are certainly enough. I am not sure whether it is too many or not. But that has nothing to do with the merits of how the seats are distributed. That is another subject, and I could debate that but my time I think is getting very short so I do not want to go into it.

On the redistribution we had a lengthy debate here last year. But all I want to say is that the House is too large in my view. Forty-two members are adequate for a Province the size of Newfoundland and Labrador. That would give us enough members so that the rural areas and the urban areas alike could be properly - SOME HON. MENBERS: Oh, oh! HR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, the han. member for St. John's West (Hr. Crosbie) is having a great chat outside but could he be a little more quiet. His booming voice, Sir, booms through the sepulchral halls. My friend from Burin- Placentia West (Mr.

Canning) teils me the Minister of Mines and Energy is talking to the Liberal people from Burin. That is almost all of the people in Burin according to the election results. Mr. Speaker, I understand I have only a very few minutes left, for I have used up my time,and that is weli enough. Let me just make one final point that I think should be made,even though I do not have the time to spend on it that I would like to 8027

~lay 18. 1976 Tape no. 2765 Page 6 - mw Mr. Roberts. spend on it but maybe I will revert to it upon another occasion. Yesterday we heard quite a p.laintive tale fr0111 the Minister of Mines and Energy wearing his gloom and doom cap and the message was that this Province faces a difficult time and it is all the fault of Ottawa•' He went on at some length about what Ottawa was doing with respect to capping, I believe iS the phrase, but in any event reducing the growth in expenditures on medicare, and he talked about a n\UIIber of other points, which he felt support.ed his thesis. 802S

''ny I~, l'l7o Tape 2761> IR-1 'm f'i)lt fT'T~; Mr. ~rf'?ker, T thourl1t the hor. 1;entle,.an hac' some goocl points. I thou~ht he l1arl so!l'e l'!erit :!n the!"'. I aM not at a.ll sympathet:l c to the position the Cove~1"ent of ranada have taken. I can understand ..-hy they t<"l'e it. I can tmder!'tand the reasons •,;h ich have J erl thel'l t<' t?l·e 1t. T'·ut I am nnt <'t all sympathetic-. because the fact "'e h:we " MPdj c?re 1'1 an totlay is esseontj a1J y because of the Government of r,.nn~"' proper] v in 1'1" v:l. e~• and proudly.

But t;he Goverrunent of Canada hr<'up,ht it in, hrourht in the medicare plan - Mr. Pearson's administration - one of. tr.e p,rent achievel'lents of a very great adl'linistration. Now tll:Jt ''C nre in :It, am1 in it ~dth the money }.einr paid on a certain hasis 1 unr1er" certain formt,la,the rules al'e beo.in!! chanrecl in 11'in- pl n~r :md H :1" our treaRnnr t1 ·at must bP.'IT. thf' coAt.

"eJl ohviousJv, ~i.r, we must be c'eeply concerned about th:it :md '·'<:> "re r1o:!_ng the rip:ht thing to res:fst it and to fjrht nnrl tn speRl: 2'71'linst 1t nnd to try to persuade the rovernl!'f'nt of Canada th<>t uha t they are clofng 1 s \·•rnng. '-'r. Speaker thoup,h - ana ! at" not hel'e to .:lefenr "tta,.,., they can speak for the!'lselves - lmt T think thr.re are s0roe othPr points ~·lhich shouJ c' he made in la.y:ln~ before the ~ 1 onse so,.ethfnr anprnach:ln!!

He cr>111plete story because fedeoraJ.­ prov:lncia1 rPlations, ~ir, are ~ very complicateo 111atter. anr very rmch ~t the heart of the subRtance of. public Ji fe :l.n this 'f'rovince. ~ ·r. Spel'll,er, they are not ,.J l one-sirlec'. T h<~ve not ac't1er1 up tl'e figures but I would think that on hl'll 11nce tld.s Province is very much the net gainer because> of the clf'ltl inrs ,.•i tl1 the r.ove.ml'lent of C:mad<t and forre>t for the mol!'ent Phi' they are.

It doC'!R not matter ~·hether they are Libera] or Tory, they are the ':overmnent of r.e.tl'ac'la and entitled to act as such until they are rep] nceotl or succeec'l .ed by another gove~!"ent. T1'!.ke the f:l.shery aJcme. There '<ould not be a fleep sea f•r,h""'" tN1.oy in this Province -heavens kno'-''S the one we have> has nrohlE_>l"S sti 11 - hut there ••ouJ c'l not he a f:l sher.y toray :l.n this l'rnv:fnce, 1'l rleep SE'I'I fishery, if it had not been fnr the act:i.0ns of thC'. rnvemT!lE'nt of r.an~c'a these J ast two nr thl'ee years in pnttinr: in 8029

Tape 27(,6 TR-2 T clo not have tl1e f:lr,ure -but it Must be cJose on $100 1!1:11 Ji"n or wore in support payment~ into the industry. There ·t.rould not be a f:.~Jt fi<;h 5n<lnstr~• :In thjs Province today had it not been for the Covrrnment of ranacla a~t1np upon the request of the Smallwood Administration to set up the Salt Tish Corporation. there is a salt fish :lnc1nstry today and the GovernTI'ent of r!anana has put Tl'ilJions into it. n,, ... pTice of gasoline :Is high and it has been rnaile no le~s hy the tax increas<>s which this government have insi.stec' on puttinr: in :In thei.r most Tecent budget.

But Jet it be recort1ed th11t the rr:l ce ,.ronld rP f:u hipher still if :1.t 1-1ere not for t'1e snhs:l dies ,,.,h:Jch Pe Dre pettinr frow the (:l)vernl!'.ent of r~m·dl'l, ten or twelve cent"' a ~allon1 T helievc,c-n the retail price of fuel.

I could The point I •rant to l"ake, Sir, is that ,,,hile ••e have :1ust complaints with Ottawa, and while we must pursue them vigorously, this r;ovPrnT'1E'nt over here, ~1.r, :l,s not ~dthout bl:<~me and there is EJ seconn ~1t'e to 1t. 'T'l,c h:treest reason I C.el:leve, S:lr, <rhy we hRve not got anytldnp like ,,•hat I bel1eve we are ent:l.tlet'l t('1 get by ••ay of f:!nRnc:lnl help Fro!Tl the r.overnment of CanadA :Is thRt tb:ls gnvern,cnt h;o~ fAiled co,.pletely and utterly to develop anyth:!n~ Approaching a rat:fonal and inteJ ligent Rnd comprehensive p]Rn for the developMent of this Prov:f.nce.

Yr. :peaker, we have J,a<l A Jot of tall · in this sessjon, a lot of taJl< of' the mot:fon which I brought in, the Private Members motion say:fng that tee sr.ould have a se] ect comrn1t tee. That :! s another rlel,<'lte 11nt1 T -.rHJ not go :Into it. B-ut let me sAy, Sir, that the biggest sinrle failure of this present administration, the "oores .\rhrinistrntion, is that in five years in office they have not come to prips with the fnnc:lamen tal problem of this Province. They have not r'evPlorerl 11 pJ an. 'T'lley have not measurec1 our resources.

They have not made use of those resources or made use of the potentia] to try to achieve a goa]. They have not stated the ~;oals. They 8030

Tape 2766 IP,-3 '1'. T'0Rf.J''l"S: h:we P,one on, Sir, from ad hocery to ad hocery and they have tak~n on the fina) ad hocery of them all in the Churchill Falls question, I ,,.-111 hnve a r.re<1t <1e;ol !'lore to say about that either on the amendl!'.ertt or on the main -hudp:ct motion itself because I think it is a subject 0-n. :·rll:! ch Tl'l!ch more nee its to be said. nut let H be recorded, r'r. :"peaker, that one of the great alhntros!'eS 1101~ arClund our necl ' and it :Is becomine - and for once ap:;tjn T t hink the hon. ~eentleman for St.

John's East (Vr. !farshall) <md T"ysel f arc :in agreement on a question.

Fe may co·me to it from cJ-;fferent flCljnts of v:le1;r. v4e may not agree on very much el.se but 1ve nre in a<>:reeT'lent that the finandal burilen of the r.hurchill 'Falls thiflg when T"easurei! against the possible gain has become tl·at of iln a!hatro~s, an albatrns!" ah0ut our neck. to u!"e the ancient mariners term. 'I'J· in r.overnnent, S:lr, :l.t i.s obvi0us ••ent into the ~urchill. proje .ct rdtJ,ont h<1Ving thought it through,without having itlvest:lgated jt, Hithout hav:fng realisticaJly consideretl Hhat was the best way for this T'rovince. to proceecl.

I do not want to go on on the r.hurchill thinr, now h<'c.ause J have only a moment or t~'o left but I shall return to it because T believe, :";r, that. of all the disastrous errors which tlds >'.dr:lin:!strlltion have made the rhu:rchilJ rans thing - anr1 by that J r1n not rt>an the O'-''!lership.

The fact of ·~ho owns the Chur.ch:f.ll Falls ;, not ' 'h:'lt h:>s causec' the problem. l'hat c<~used the probJem is the 1·':-lY in Nhiclt the r,overnment have acter'L It does not matter jn that ,;ense Hhether they own the Churchill project or whether the C' urchill project ~·a" nvneC. by Jlrinco or any other privately held corporation. '~'h;>t 1 s a red 'l errinp, to say that the issue is n'l-mersh:l .p. " <;:Cl~•pletc sl1;.,.. and a char11de and the reddest of all red herrings.

Let "'e s~ty s:!mpJ.y though that the biggest sinple failure of thh government is that they have not come to grips •rith the prol,let"R of this l'r0vince. They have not stated what our resources arc. ~ev I: ave no!= stated what we shc-uld try to achieve. And ;>rcr>r.r':!ngly they have not tmr.kerl out the means by ''hich they want 8031.

~·av 1 n, 1971' Tape 2766 In-4 > ~ . ~O TI J'PTS: That is ~rhy, in '"Y belief, 1ve are not getting Tl'at i.s the biggest, Rinrl e reason '"hy we are not r,cttfnr. acleC]uate he] p. Tole have not gone ,,,ith a properly prepared CI\SC. Pe 'have ~one '":I th a series of anhoceries, a series of half- haLer' ide as at rnost. He have not producec1 R co!Tiprehens:lve and an -Intelligent and all- embracing plan and that is vrhat we should be doing. l hnd hopen, ~ir, that :Is '"hat this administration vlould do. >·•r. ~pcaker, it is ai!1AZing ho~7 quickly ninety ndnutes speeds by.

It m11y he long for those who listen but, Sir, for those who speak it is very short. I have made what I believe to be two or three very important points in connection with the motion before the Chair. There are many others wh:lc'P should be 111::tde and I hope a number of hon. gentlemen on hoth sic1es, Sir, ••:Ill r;et :In to touch upon the pointR '.i1.ich I 1111Ve l!'ade or upon others. T believe, Sir, this House is the place 1·1here t he probJ ems of ~:ewfoundland and Labrador shoulc1 be r:!5.scussec1 and ~rhile they c~<nnot be sett]ec1 here, Sir, the solutions can often '!->e set forth.

ThE> foverntrent, ftr, have not done their shnre. I 1·•:1ll return to that fn another debate but let me say simply that :m y !:overnment s t:mcls reve11l ed by its legislative pror,raml"E'. 'T'jle pro!'ramme of t1,1s government, Sir, as set forth on the 0rder l'aper is quite siriply lotter:l.es and a flag. Those are their priorities for a T'rov:lnce that has 28, noo of our men and ~'omen unel'lployeCt, that is fac:lnv a ver y serious financial problem and that alto gether, ~ir, :Is 1-1 Province that baclJ.y neecl!' leac1ershlp. Pe are not p;ettinr, that leaclers'bip, Sir.

He. 11re not ~etting the lenc1ership ~ve c1eserve from the r,overnment of this Province and tha~ :l.s why my colleayues and I nre go1.ng to vote in. favour of the amendment moved by the hon. gentleman for f,t. Jnhn 1 s Morth ("!r. J. r.arter) and "hY we are going to vote in favour nf the i=nsely 'better amendment l"Over1. with an immcns elv better speech by ~y frienc1 and colleague, the rentleman for 'rurpeo-Pay "'fspo:!r (~'r. ~i1:1mons). Thank you, S:lr. 8032

'~'ape ') 76(, Il\-5 !'lcnr, hear ! ,.,... ~rr.tY.F.": ,1e hon. I"P.mber for !t~illineate . •·r. ~pcpl·e-r , al!'Ong. r.anada ' s ten prnvinc'!f' Ne ... ofoundlantl '""; the hfr.'"'st t :.xes , t 11e hirl1~st cn~> t of living, the highest t•nemplO)'l'l!'nt , the ~ir.h es t puhl:tc clebt , t he highest cos t of borrow:lnf, r 11e lotJest !eve) of rross provincial pr o<luct 1 the lowest level of inrlustri;U prntluctivity , the lN>el"t le.rel of most puhlic services , r!•e lo,.·es~ lrvel of p,.ivate Jiv1ny, and the f:tste:>t pnce :In the rush to•·wrds r,.ov1nciA1. insolven<.y . That :Is Newfonndland totlay .

A veritabl e "1 n l'ol or osn, and !'(\<' r art t o l:J"low it and to say i. t. ~:o.., :In th:fl'< cle b:HI' on t he bunr.E't i t i.s of cou.rse,T think, :><IMi tt<-c1J y1 our duty to enqui r e :Into the c11use s and pos sil-J y tht> so'1•tions of nur r re~>l!'t't t r ouble . '!.'hat lea(ls tne,first of al' 1 a t the vt:'ry '•~r,inn:lnr , to ~<:ty something about our pub] ic <'eht . ~·ow a public ,.,.,. t . 1'r. ~rcnk~>r, c-ost!' the horrower.

He c'oP.s not ge t to h~>ve a ''t:''> ~ ~·j thou t it~'< <'Osting h:fll' sometb 1nr . lewf.oundland i n this case •s the horro•\er nncl " t l)n~ CO!;t ~e,~folltlcUand I"'St p.r:levouRly l\r.d t hr: r1•h 1 5 c c'eht con t inues t o cost Newfoundland most gri evousl y . 803J

"'Jl'' - 1 This cn!"t of 0ur puhJ:i.c rl<?bt, the 1ntl'TP.!"t :mrl r>rnvinc.e 'u"' b:-.d tC' nay out a staggerine !'ltTT\ of money to service the tleht. ·~o the cm1 of thls current [ina.-,c:'.aJ. year, that is to li:Ly at t 1•r· 31st. of ?:arch next, t:le r,r.:mcl total sum thct w:Ul !tave l>ccn paLl to service the pu0lic dcut, from the first day of Gonfeclc,ration to th,., last 'lay of this present financial year, t:w gr:mt: tot:cJ sum is just under. Sl;~!) millJ e-n, to be exact ::r. :wARY: Just to service it? ~at ls to servic~ the pul•} ic ncbt to the end of t!w current fJnnnda] vcor.

The first twenty--eight years as a T'rovincP, Hewfoum!lnnu tl1rour,h its government will have oairl out _juc:t unucr tr-~-; I"illion. And the vast bull: of thC'.t, the oven-,helmin~ proportion of it, :rr. Spea!cer, went out C'f the l'rovfnce. It w·as shirpcd out o"f neHfounc 1land to the bond hoh'ers, the people who bnup;ht the l>orvls, the people who lent us the money. They U.ve nutsir1e 'lewfnundland anc' they have to receive the l'loney, which they "o t\J.i.cc n v~.~r,anr 1 it comes to a total that T have indicated. MR. NEARY: J1m.r muc11 " year?

Pow much a year? '<m1 in the current year, in this present year ~" c:~rvicc the dcht w1ll cost the goverBment, in other tmrds <dll cost the l'rovince,t.:J25 million. In this year's hudp,et l 1w cost or servicin~ the <lcbt 'is n2.'i,2~"~2,1JO'l. One hundred and t••cntv-f !.vn m'cl a <jHartcr million. Now thi,; i:J :!.n the present year.

From first day to the last day of the y<'ar, in the '1~5 days, ~125 million or <::'3fl for every man in the n,-ovjnce, for every tmman in the Province, for every child in the ... , ovince, for evE"ry infant in the Province. ~23') or nine hunurcrl oc!d •1clJ «.rs frnm each family. 'ie have the highest de!:-t in r..:mada. We have the

'fay 18, 1'?7£- Tape No. 27F;7 MR. SMALLWOOD: h1~hest rate, the most expP.nsive rate at vhich to borrow money. ~~m~ it will interest t'le House I am sure to know which of the two r.ovcrnments, which of the two adrn1nistrations, there hns heen on.Jy one government in Newfoundland, but two administrations of it, ~rhicT,. of the two ad!ninistrations has had to find most of that money? ' ~y administration, Mr.

Speaker, had to find $252 million of tT,.at. )ry administration in the twenty-three years found and paid to the bon<' ho~.ders, and otherwise, in the servicing of the dcht, in tlvent y-·thrce yenrs a total of ~250,:!5~"~,1100. The present administration in five years, a total of ~4 'l" mill i.on, No~1 except for the few months that are ]eft of the current year these figures refer exclusively to the past, to the first twenty-eight years of our life as a Province.

A total of ~6R9 million that had to be found to se'rv1ce t'"te debt and of that amount ~252 ITlillion had to be found Jyv my arlmini.stration, nn<l was found, and ~436 ,5nn,Or:Jf) of it hy the pre s ent administration arod I have no doubt that they wU J find i.t. "''R. ~mARY: nn dP.ht thnt they incurred theiT\selves? ' !R. S!W.LW'I'!1 : Yes. What I had to find, what my admiristration hnd to find "ras the servicing of the debt that my administnition cor tr11.ct"d. 1-'e did not have to find before we left office, ~1e did not have to find the money to service the debt contracted nfter 1•e Hcnt out.

It ~ms after ''e uent out, it is in five years, f"'n,flinr, next '3ht. nf ''nrch, it is in those five years th::-t so much money ~•as ~een hor.roHed hy the present administration, that to service it IJi 11 have cost tre~~~ in their first five years ~43~,Ml",'H"', cnll. •t o!:/!"'·5 million. That is because t!ley rorro 1Jed "0 much in tht:>ir f:tv"! yrnrs. 'lou, "r. ~peal · e r , that is lookinp, at t l1e past and a pretty "'ournful pi cture it i.s. Let us I'.O\\' look alleacl a littl e . ""c.'lt is .~ 8tiltesiT\nnJ iho tl1inp: to no. Let us J ook atr2d in t'"tis T'rovi.ncP. for, sny, t~ H?. '1cxt ten years.

Yrm rio not have to be :>. ver<' r,reat prophet, you do not have to be a man of very great understanding to 8035

·~ .... ~. 1", ,"7'· __ ,.._'~~- '":.,,_7" .... ,,..., ,.;,.v 1 f"'l~ ,..., 1,-,""1· ..,_ .. +-,,-: probabilities ap;:t ten yco:~rs, not a dollar. In those ~en years - l 'r . T'f.ClT0T'.D: He wi11 go aground if we do not borrnw. ,.-·xt ten ycnrs, if none is horrowecl - 1:m1 are you ~oin;o: tc> operatt:! ':he -;>rovince? '<T' I al"l not d'lscussi.np.: thnt at this moment, not "rC'scntJu nt thi,; P:.!rti.cnlar Moment. I mn looJ.:inp: at :mot'lC'r .1sN·c:t of H. 1"11c presently existing public debt, Mr.

Speaker, if we •ln nc;t aif-1 a ·1o1Jzr to it in the nc>xt ten years,,r!Jl rf'<]ulro cns 11 to l1r founr1 ~'Y t 11e ''in'lstcr of '!"':Lnanr.e, \~!locver 11e ts unfortun~tc r-nou~!l to !'f' tn the n~xt ten yenrs, h12 \-lill ~1avc to find cas~, tr> "crvic:r !:"'"' •.1c~'t rrs it now i.s ,~o11.thout. <:~:ldln~ a dollar to it, h<> \dJJ hnvE' to fin' ~1,2:-'l,fll)(',fln'l, 1nst to service t~c 1cl>t. r,nt Is ~)~~•"""•""" a year for the next ten years after tho ct~rr·~·1t :rr:-ar. ~1~;-. ~~ billion cash an<' t 11C? ovcrw".E'lmii'r, P:lrt c>f t 11:>t 11ilJ h.:1ve to lcnve th~ Province ::.nd ~o to tl•e hnnd holdrrc., th0 money ]enders who do not live mostly in this T'rovince.

P-ut no'~ as t~e }linister of Municipal Affairs an•' Tlousinc; so truly ~:;ys, if you c1o not harrow what are you p,oing to no? That is true. C::o 1 r.t us say th.:1t in the next ten years the govcrr .mcnt wfll ·~r-ryr :;n nv~ra~· of ~1'1'1 ~1llion a yenr, ~1nn ~illion a year ror th<' nrxt ten years after this year.

It Hi] 1 cost ~2 hill ion to sC"rvlcc our pnhJic rkl't then, that is to say tr> SPrVi!'P. thP. c'!eht we ~d r,..arly hnvc, that is ~125 million a year fror ten years is n .25 hill ion, nrlr] n hilHnn dPht to th<~t, $1 'lQ million a ~ 7 C"tlr ancl. vou are. hrin!(inp; yonr serv:!c:!.n~ cost up to $2 billion cash to be fotmcl. in the next 'To1-1 t:wt Houl<! be ~3,57n for every man, woman and cl1ilc in tl1r "rovince 0 Or for every family in the Province over ~13,'1'1'1, iust t., srrvi,. thr debt, the e.xisting debt and ~lnO l'lill ~.r>n a year for 803!1

.. :ty 18, 1"7" TaM No. 2767 N}l- 4 '~. S}tALU~OOD: . ten yc3rs that i s $1 billion, that is a Rrand total of S2. 000 millinn, S2 billion to service the debt in the ten years. ' !0\·, Sir. that !~ at $10') million a year. Let us assume that in the ner.t ten yoors t~e horrow $200 million a year and that ts far less than th<> present administration have done in these five year s . They have borrowed on the aver~Re away abov~ t:2fl0 mill ion a year, away above it. But let us say th~t in the coming ten yc.u-s t!'!ey will barron only at the rate of $200 million :1 ye:~r.

To service the presently existing debt for the next ten yMrs :.md the $2 billion th3t they will borrow if they borrow $ 20~ millio n ~ year for ten years that 8037

""'v lR, 1 "7fi 'T'ape 27fiP. l 'f'. ~ MAJ , LPnnn : HilJ mE'an a p;ran<l total in these coming ten years just to serv-ice the cl.ebt a]one 1of $3.75 billion. Now that is an average of $'375 rn:llUon each year for the next ten ~rears. Ima!!:ine the Tll··l ''i.n:l stcr of T'inance co!"ing :l.n on the aver ap-e of the next ten years nod in his ~m<lpet, rresentjng a budget.

Pn the expenditure side each year, on the aver:~. ge, lt H:l 11 less in the first and second and th:l rc1 Y"ar, more in the fourth :1nd fifth, much !"ore the sixth and seventh nnrl in the tenth tt v:llJ bp shocking altogether. !lut on the average he hrinr,s :l.n an expenditure of $375 million a year just to serv:!ce the debt and that is cAsh that has to be found and mailecl out of Tt ~' ou]d "ant to hE' some budr:et, I'"·· S~'AI.!.POI"Il1: It "rould he SO!".e hudr:et. nf CC'IursE', ~·r. Speaker, if you tell me that this •rould be :Insanity I have to agree thoroughly.

It would be insanity and of course :It is not roing to happen. Tt is not r.o:lng to happen. Tt :Is not roing to happen because,not necessari.ly of any T.,:fsc1om :In the Government of Newfoundland or wisc1om in t;:his House, because the money lenc1ers will not alloy.• it to happen. Tt ·~i 11 not happen because at some point of time the Newfoundland Government 1·111] hE' met hy a flat no from the money lenders. Jt ,,d]] not h11ppen because the l"Oney lenders wil] si111ply not hel:ieve thnt N£>Ffouncllanr1 C!ln pay out Auch fant:~st:lc sums :In :Interest and Ainkinp- funn on horroHecl l"Oney.

Hhen ,,dJ l that poi.nt he? At whr.~t po1nt '·d lJ the money 1enrlers, t"e h;mkl':, the insurance compan:les, the pension funils, other 1nAtHut:!onf1 Rnil ft1n<ls, ll.t <orhat point H:!Jl the y say f:!rrnJy to <'ur r:ov,Tnment, "No, no T"'T~, yNt 11re over your hear1s nm~ , '''e do not consj<'!er yon Aa-Fe anymore as hoTroPers?" Phe n 1dll that be? Later tllis ye;,r? nr T~ ill :1 t not he until next year? Let us all remember th ~ r ,.-hen t":tt . (lj,:O happen t:'o us hefore, when we •·1ent on the rock s , tt carne t~Hh. shocking suddenness .night up to the last moment we had no •·arnin g .

Newfoundland hac' no w11rning. One ye.ar we went out and 8038

~':'I Y 18 , 1'] 76 Tape 2768 IB - 2 , ...... ~wALL•.rorr : ~>•e borroued millions at a good rate without any difficulty or delay, our bonds ,,,ere grabbed up, v.•ere snapped up. The very next year the axe fell . ;lot a dollar, not a single dollar at any rE.te l.rould 11nyone in the worJ d lencl to the Govemllellt of Newfoundland. Not one dollar could the Ne~: foundland Government raise by the sale of its bonds because no one on earth would buy a solitary bond of the lle••foundland Government. ~1e were broke and on the rocks. 1-lhen you ••ant to get an idea of the size of a t ·hing you often stand a ~an up by it.

You get the height of a tree by hav:l.ng a man stand hy it. You take a photograph. You want something to coMp:>.re. To get some idea of the size of our public debt, }'r. Speaker, let ns lool' at our nearby neighbors. Do not compare Newfoundland's debt ••ith that of Ontario or that of Br:ltisb Columb:!.a, that of Alberta, compare our debt w:lth the debts of Nova Scotia, Prince Fdward Island and Ne"' :Br.uns•dck.

In Price Edward Island to the end of 1977-so I 8DI taldng the same perioc1 as our own, to the end of next Harch - their puhlic debt, i!irect and indirect, together combined is $113 million; That is a per capita of $9ll2. Fvery MBil, woman and child in Prince Eclwarcl Island oPes as public debt $942. No'·' come to Nova Scotia. Again to the end of 1977, again net direct clebt and their indirect debt combined per capita of $1,250 . . Now co!T'e to ~:ew Brunswick again to the end of March in 1977, next }'arch, direct and indirect, $1,356,000,000 for a per capita of ~2,000 ~head. That is $2,008. MR. H.

COLLIN_!:_ Give us ours. ~'l' . S~~'U.lBOI'lD: I <vill in a mo!T'ent. I '-'ant to complete this

section of what I a!T' sayinr,. The population of the three Maritime Provinces :Is Prince E~warcl Island, 120,000; New nrunswick, 684,000: Nova Scotia R3r},'100 for a total of l,li34,000 souls. That is the population, the latt!/!it figures,of the three Maritime Provinces. Their total publ~c debt, the three provinces comb:lned almost as if they were one province, their public ~ebt is $2,475,000,000. So that if you were to average 8039

".1y lR, 197(, Tape 'J7f,f', IB-3 rrr. ~· · n.L1J00": the public ileht of tt•os~ thrcp provinces, Mvirleil by a population of 1,6:lf,,OQCl it ~ives you a per capita debt of $1,500, a little some or1r1 rl.oJlars ewer the~t. ~l ,500. Ho~·, l'r. Speaker, come to r<ewfound];md. Here you have r<'t your ''asis of cowpar:lson no~,, l.f> million population up there, 55.'),1JOO l1erc . Here sli?.htly belqw one third of the col"hined population of the three Maritimes, just under one third. llp the.re the averapce public c1ebt of the three provinces merged is just over $1,500.

Here in Nc~·foundland ot:r public debt is 1.n the vacinity of $2 billion. Th~t is a per capita :ln this Province of over $4,000. Tt js almost thrf'e t:f.l'IE!s as much as the averaged col"b:f.ned public clel' t of those three province!' because numher one, they have only got a fe~· hundred wi] lion dollars more rlebt than we have but number t1,•o, they l1ave three til'1es as many people to share it. So the I 1-nrrlen falls l".uch more lightly, obviously. In fact it is only around $1,500 per head, per person jn those three provinces

whereas in Newfoundland,w1th a public rlebt that is only a few hundred millions belm.' their gnmd total public t>ebt,with only a third as many peopJ e, the hurc1en fall!< on eacP. ind:fv:f.dual person :fn Newfoundland ll'Ost p,ri.evously. W' • .T. r:Al'TP.P: '1-Joulrl the '1!1e!'1ber allow? l'l'. f>"~LL'·rnnn: '\'es. "r. f>peaker, the hon. member is co~parinp appJes and oranges. Tn our orm case, the total provi.nc:l .al obligation, there :tre cc>rta1n .-ler11ct1ons t:-tlcen froll' it :mch :-1s stnkinp: fnncls, loans, advances, mortgages, etc. etc. Tn the others as ,.,ell. ''1'1.

J. f'APTF.'I': nut :In the l'rov:!nce of Nova f>cot:!.a,I happen to know l'ec<Ou!'e I hac:" <' cranc.e to loolr at one of their hudget documents, they "1 s" dec1uct a~ 1 sorts of other thlnr .s and come up •ri th a net debt con .~t,'crably Jeso; tl1an is actualJy the case. Therefore I think, although thC' l•on. werob.,r's fig•tres are interestinr;, they are not accurate. 80~0

"ny R, <17r, npe 2768 IB-4 · e l r reject completely the point that the hon . r.entle Jn ma'kes . I reject your rejection. r'. .J. CM'T :r: ~ '.'ILL! 1()(1!): l re e ct t out of hanp . He is behind the times.

T know what r al'l taJ.I :i ng a ou.t. ~orma1ly I c1o not talk unless I '<nm·l •,•ha t I nm ta lki ng alx!ut , unless l have the facts at my fingert ps and T have them at y finge tips . :•r . ~peaker, the ewfoundland people are tragically unaware of the presf'nt elq>los:!vely danrerou!il conc11t i<>n of their prov i nce's fi nanc e s. 1' 0 1~ could it be othe t"'dse when for example the statement 1nacle in his !louse by the hon . l!!el"''ber for St. John's East (llr . Marshall) "'n quite :! <'nore<l hy press, radio a nd telev .ision. The hon. member cold ~! e••fo unclla.nd - a d l qu ote him precisely nm.• -

~- 1 ·~ "''AI.l.l-'<Y'Il): ··r h~ve to s:1y frC'In my own vieHpoint quil"e :~'l nc-erel y ""'' quj t e clP. Rrly thnt n~; n member of this Tlo<t.<lc , .1~ nn <'l<'ctl' •' "'laml,er, I am vm:v much concerned with the finnnct.~l .1fflliT<: of t 1 1l~ T'rovince . T f:C'el t!Jnt we ar <' in " crisis in tld.s '~'rovincl'. 1\e are in a critical posit:lon and it is r.oin~ tC'I l"<''IU:I rl" vcrv , very stror.r, MC\:l.Surcs.

" And again in this same !'loecc.l-t thC' s= hon . ~entlc"Jan told us , and a.<tain I ouote, "Tt is n mi\ttcr of supreme importance and deep concern, and it nu~;t he of evr:rv MCI"ber of this llouse , the finllnc:I.Rl Position ln whtc'> •~c find ourse lves ." Again the same hon . memher, "It "" n ;-rnvr: :;ttu.'lticn . ! C<\nnot overesti"l.'\te it . " The hon . ..,e..,h<'r for St .

John ' s 'P.ast (Mr . ltar shall) then t o l d us that if •.'C' F:~1.1,.., t<' en:: ''""'n tiP.n it C<'llld possihly MPn.,, ~'r. <:oP.n'tt!r, T inv:ftr: thc- cl<>sc- nttenti<'o oF 11<'1'1. l'lPMhcrs , T "~ <1uot:fnr. thco ''"" · n'='.,'"'l' Fnr <;t . . Tn""'" l7n$t (''.-. "':trsr:~ll), "If we fail :,. c•1r down; ~"'<'" " t r.<wlrl .,ossihJ ~· !llP.IlT' til' P.n~ of' r.e.,:OPI!~>l'tntiv" ~"''l'l'l'""""r 1., r•·'f-. "'r"Vii'CI'. '' Anr1 ltC' ari .. C'<1 , "T t hin!· t~" "" t11:ot:l"" "~''' en'\ the people hppc to bc a11arc of the crisis \lien in f:tct t:1cy ·!lei not !:nn:1 that the i1on. mc::lber [or :;t.

Jo!m ' !! 'lnrth ("t• , .T. Cnrtc " ) t old this llou.:;c and ar,aL'1 1 quocc his orc>c.l-.c- 1mr.:s , "There i s a rcnl crisis in our fin a nciaJ con<!itie>n . Tt j s not pcrcci\'ed !,y t 'llA l'nu.::JP. and it is not perc.~ive<l uy the r•·OI'](' . " Anti .'!,,:lin t11nt ~.'!:tiC hon . mt>mhcr. still quotin~ !lin, .• ...,,n r in~nct:a conc:lt:ior of t'lil'l rrovincc is extremely grav e ." /:r..•' :~r. .1in t • ,~ snmc hnn . rt"m"cr , '''{ am alnmt>d by the financial 11Hunt'l.on ." Tho:'tl' tt~n hon . I"Cntlcnl'n '"'~ d tho::;~ ~ror.ds in this Hcu~c !r. 111y hcadn~t. >\ncl then the hon. ncmbcr for St .

John ' s F:11st ( ~l r. "nrshn 11.) snNlldn g of \'llnt he rcfcrre~ to ns , 11 'M\ia ~· . "''i !>iJ lil'n l•udp.et ," referring to that he referred to the, hcrt' arc the 11nr<!s, •:r. ~pcaker , he refer r ed to, """he aeonics 804. 2 .~

'1ay 18, 1976 Tape No. 276f ~ 1R. S~ fALL\fO OD: that are surely going to descend upon us." Not a tmrd of any of that has been quoted in press, radio or television, not a word. NM- 2 Th~se grave statements have not been reported to the people, nor have the people received any reports of my sounds of nJ:J.rm on the financial condition of our Province. Never a >mrd has been reported to the people of the nods of approval by the ''inister of Finance on several occasions when I dreH attention to the extremely serious financial state of Newfoundland, r>,ot a ~o10rd. '!'hat is not nf\ws.

Scarsely a l·•orcl or even a syllable of the remar~~s that were cordng to ~e"1foundland from the han. the '~in is ter of J!ines and Energy.

As a former ranister of Finance in the nre s ent administration he could be expected to know somcthinr: about it, could he not? ''The pie is no lonr.er expanding~!-u?o. told us. 11 The pie was ~ettinr. larger and larr,er and you could sline it around and give more to the ordinary people and bring up the standards of living, ~mprove social services and give them more social assistance and h ave ' 1edicarP. and free hospital treatment, etc. , hut 11 declared this kno~ollrclgf>_ahJ e 1'1inister, ''but, we have come to the end of that." The end of what? 'The pie was ~etting larger and larger and you could slide it around a~d give more to the ordinary people and bring up the standards of living, improve social services and p,ive them more social assistance ard have 'fedicare and free hospital t-reatment, c>tc., etc., but tm have come to the end of that.

That is where we have come to. This is no short-term crisis.'' The '!l{:ln:lster of "ines and Energy, "This is no short-term crisis. Their standards of living" - the people's standards of living - "are not goinp; to keep p;oing up. 'J'hey are in grave danger of stopning or comin~>, c1own.'' flat a word of that have the people heard. These '"~re dramatic declarations uttered hy a l~inister of the Crm·m, .a res'['onsible and powerful minister at that, from his place in thi s House anCI he clinched them by adclinr; the ~ords, 80~3

Tape No . 27f,f ~ - 3 "Anyhocly ul,o nm,• r eally spel'!ils ruw tf.l'lP. 1ookinJt at thh can r;ce it an.! tJt<'\ fi~u rcs .'\rc> all therl' but , " ancl nntc> those of'Y.t wor e's , !rr . Speaker , "b ut lt is not ye t in th~> puh J ic cnnSCiOUSnCSS hut We !t:lVC tO get it i.n OUr COnscinii~OI''>'l f't'Ctty £ast.'' That is the 'linister of ~ines anc Fncrgy . N o PolJynnna, no rosy o~ttnism there, or froM the hon . Member erom <:t .. lol m ' s l'.1~t (~'r. Marshall), or ttto !:on. 'llc>.nl-er f'ron "t. ,lohn ' n •:C'rt"t ('•r . .r. r.nrtor) or from ml? .

Thr>sc were courascous w,rds f.rom the mf.n1st<'!r . ~ur. ~vc>n hrnvcr wc>rc!s 1'<'r" tltc followin~ fro"' hir, that s:tmc Minister of ' '1n<-s :tnil '~"n r r~y , ''PPJl ," ltc s:~itl, "you lt-.vc- got t, trv tn cnrr y nn the- servf<:rs ttoat liT" tu~rc- !l<"l·r :tt the J>Tl'"<''lt 1<-vc>l :~1th'our h "'""nt is a ro!>si.hi).:l ty . " l.c ~:~ys , 'You may '1:w <" to cu t " :'lc:'· tm1a r ds services but let us ":'lY that you iu n:: c arry or. n:: t 'le .,.,.., 1-1.,:- u." '•r!r e in t his !louse thn t h is heart this scs s ~. on is r C'I\1 :y not ·J I' lt.

Titat he i:; nnl: in tht?- u«:ual !lUI'liO.;!S S o r b:t ttl inr. anu sluggin g, cut anc! t hr us t of t!C:>a~c , hi:; heart i~ n~t in it, he tol d us :~.n<i !u~ gnve us the rc:~.son . renlly, 1 think Wf clc fnce n s erious situ:ttlon.

"'he oorulace nct>d:; to he , the people need t o be apprised of it and made aware of .lt "nd we h.wc got to makE the best fist of it lle Cftn.'' /l.gnin a plP.• t'>:tt t .,e people he mnde awar e of th" serious, tlte tcn:i. bly scriou::> nnture of the fin:-ncial crisis in this TTouse. •ro·_, the rcl"i1.-!~ m.:~.c!o by the hon . the l'rt>r-ier ~'ere not qu'l.tc as t>.Hpnthlc .'IS thoo;c of !l.l.s colle.,t;tt!', the ·!inister of ''lnm> anc! FnorlZ)' hut they •rcrc positive cnou~h, "Timns arc ll (';l$UT~S .

T'l'l.s ~nvernro_ent, Sir ' plnns to ~e tough. nlerc is no question about t'•:1t. ~le \lill set nn e:-:anplc t o l:~ht>to: ;mci to nan::tgcotent of lihat :;ovetlllllent can clo in leading the wny ,

''ell, ~ir, thnt 1rns :tt least o. oer,inninA f t:OT'l th<> Premier.

"" l"l'nt '>n to tell us , still 'liiOtin~ hin , "Because wl}ilst tl!l" f:tnnncl:\1 nar!·N :mel !!hi' ot!W( people i n t h1.s world wiH arcept one ('l'flcit becau"e of the unusual ci.rcui'\St:mces in t:.e •~l'rlcl toc1:1v thc:-y H1.11 no t con<!e>ne , nor ~;hnulcl we be allowc cl to ~c:: :1""'' •.:1 t!l t~:o ." !\nd he nclced these significan t worrls , "I t'1in' · , ... ,., 't '1..<:: r:>:tr to St'Y that all peC'ple in thi.c:: :>rovince nu:;r re:~l i;o;e that until ~~e !>nlan ce our h udget, until we o.rE' fina:1cial1v r<>sponsirle- we c.s :1 "rovince and as a peopl<> 11~Jl n!"Vl'T C'\'l'r," tho.c::e nrc lti.c:: words , "1dll never ever, He as a people nne' · ·~ ::.s a " rovince wtll never eve r be a ble to ~o the t 11'lnp,s in t'u: f ntur e t!lnt we so badly need to do and ~~ant to do , " ::~ r.n!n quoti.nr. t'lP !'r<'ni.er . ''nut H w• c'o not do \·that h11s to he done today, ~it" , I venture to -;ny t bat to:norrow ~·Ul be much darker, very dark i.n,leod . •,'<' hllve t o cut ba c!· on oublic services. ~1e must cut hacJ : :me ~<<'t nn <'x:tm"l<' on government spendin g . ~le l"lUSt cut h:tcl. on prorr'l171'tl".c:: ~fie! perfortnl\nc e .'' lle we:1t on tell us, :::t1Jl a ~tain fluotinr. !1 l~r., "!iir, II<' must took after our o~'ll hous ekc-epin~ in ternall y .

The ;act i:: t ha t cut b:tck on ~~.'ls te or f.:1t or extravagance, or ,,·hntc ve r you t~:m t t<' call it,1~ithin the ~;overnmen t i t self has to be tttl' fi rs t t!1in~ to be de alt with . " The trou ble 1.s t hey ;trC' no t clcool inr. Hith i t . They a r e maki nr, silly, fee ble lit tle fl:tt:<:es at it , nothinr. ser ious . They ar<> not even put t in~ a half •leccnt :otic l·.inr plnstcr on it.

Thl"n the l'r erde r turns his thoughts li S his col league , t!1c ''io1 ster of 1-'lnCR :md F.nerp,y had done , he turned his tho ugh t s o!L1l thr. l'rc-ni.cr to the people, ''People, Sir, hnve got to r P:Jlize, C>C'OJ']C lt:tVI'

~lay 18. 1976 Tape no. 2770 Page l - mw ~lr. Smallwood. got to realize that these are difficult times and it is going to take difficult measures to deal with them. That, Sir, will be the message of this government. As I say, Sir, it will h~rt us to a degree, but it has to be done. Governments have to cut back. We, like the individuals, Sir, have been cutting it high, wide and handsome." That is the end of that quotation or to use words that I myself have so frequently employed in the past, we have been leaving too high on the hog.

We are enjoying a standard of living in Newfoundland today, and you might say in many other parts of Canada, that we cannot afford. We are enjoying a standard of living today in Newfoundland that it has taken us twenty-eight years to get to. By prodigious effort and by prodigious expenditure and prodigious borrowing we have got to that level, that standard of living, which we cannot afford, wh~ch we cannot afford to ma~tain. The Pre111ier sUllliDed it up in these words. Ile said, "Sir, the time has come for us as a Province to face reality." How I wish to God the Premier wo1,1ld face reality.

How I wish that the Minister of Finance would face reality, not only face it, but act accordingly. How I wish all of their colleagues in the Cabinet would follow my injunctions, my advice to them here on opening day, I think it was, when I said, "You have got five years, take the bull by the horns now and do what must be done. Call on the people for the necessary sacrifice, and they will respond. They will respond to ~ave Newfoundland, to save her from collapse, to get her back on an even keel. The people will respond if you give them the lead.

" How I wish to God the Premier would do when he said, "Sir, the time has come for us as a Province to face real;Lty." If we face reality today, tomorrow will be much brighter than even we realize. And here came his warning, "But if we do not, as I said before, it is going to be a bitter day indeed. We must face reality." 80iG

May 18' 1976 Tape no. 2 770 Page 2- mw Mr. Smallwood. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is no mistaking a note of honest alarm that all of these hon. members across and hon. ministers have struck. But do you supposey Mr. Speaker, that that message, one of the most vital messages ever delivered to Newfoundland in all her history - the nearest thing I know to it was the warning of Sir John . Crosbie when he was Minister of Finance in the administration of the Ron. Walter Monroe.

As Minister of Finance in his budget speech he warned that Newfoundland was heading straight into the deepest of deep financial trouble, and it so happened that he was right. It took a few years in that case when things were on a somewhat smaller scale, when the tempo of life was so much slower than it is now. It takes a month now to happen what could happen in a year or two years then.

The nearest thing to the present warnings that have been uttered in this Chamber by hon. members and ministers, the nearest to that in importance, in vital life and death importance to Newfoundland was the warning of Sir John Crosbie when he was minister, the grandfather of the present Minister of Mines and Energy. Do you suppose that that message has been passed on to the people? Do you suppose, Mr. Speaker, that the people of this Province are today really and truly aware of the financial crisis into which our Province has come? Do you suppose, Mr. Speaker, that all bon. members of this House are aware of it?

Do you suppose, Hr. Speaker, that all hon. ministers are fully aware of it? I do not.

And in God's name what Newfoundlander, what kind of a man would he be, what Newfoundlander would he be who would noe glory in all the talk of more money for this, and more money for that, and more money for five hundred things so badly needed in Newfoundland, blessings as they would be, who cannot applaud that, who cannot wish that we had the money to do it~ But you scarcely, except for these isolated words, two hon. members, private members, former ministers, t'm hon. ministers, one of them being the Premier himself, four on that side, and I am not quoting what I said here, again and again on

11ay 18, 1976 Tape no. 2770 Page 3 - mw Nr. Smallwood. ~he same topic, but the people of Newfoundland do not lcnow. They have not been warned. You can talk here until you are black in the face, and unless the media think what you say is of sufficient importance or sufficiently interesting to report it, nobody knows.except those who are within inside these four ~tJalls. Now radio stations and television stations by the very nature of their programmes cannot give any more than two or three or four minutes to all of the proceedings of the whole afternoon and night in this Chamber.

So through those media, through those m~ans, the people are not going to learn the sad truth. The newspapers have much great elbow room. They can report it. There is precious little reporting to ask the question, do the people know, are they awarel To ask it is to answer it. Our people, Sir, are hopelessly, harmlessly, innocently unaware of where their Province stands today, and we in the people's House and the media, between us all, we are to blame. We are to blame. Mr. Speaker, what I have talked about so far is our frightening public debt, that disastrous burden.

I led the administration that caused about $700 million of it, but I did not lead the administration that caused another $900 million, $1,000 million or $~,100 million of it in five years. I caused some of it, yes. I want to say a word about the government's spending, their yearly spending. In the twenty-three years - and in reply to my bon. friend for whom though he may not believe it I have enormous admiration. He is a man who has deep beliefs and strong beliefs and convictions and some prejudices as we all have, but who is true to them and makes no bones about it.

He is not going to be toadied or taffied into changing them. He is going to be tough and rough toward me or toward anyone else that he does not like, okay.

May 18, 1976 Tape no. 2770 Page 4 MR. SMALLWOOD. I have had tougher bon. gentlemen than that bon. gentleman, and I have survived it. In the twenty-three years that my administration of the government managed this Province we did spend a very great amount · of money. There is n.o doubt about that. It came, Mr. Speaker, to a total of around $3,000 million for the whole period, $3 billion, a period that ended just over four years ago, $3,000 mil.lion, S3 billion current and capital accounts combined. It was simply a tremendous sum of money, $3 , 000 million in twenty-three years.

Of course, we did produce a lot of good for Newfoundlan p with that money. Those $3 billion built over 1, 000 new schools, a College of Fisheries, a College of Technology, seventeen trade schools,a university. We built thirty new or enlarged hospitals . We built over 5,000 miles of new roads and paved over 2,000 of them. We built large numbers of public parks and camp grounds, airplane landing strips, public libraries, Arts and Culture Cent res, industrial plants , fishery plants, agricultural establishments. Ob yes, yes indeed , it 80~9

l'ay lR, 1976 'Tape 2771 B-1 r-r . s~~~umon : \Jas a lot of I')Oney tho!'e $3 bHlton in tc:enty-three years but tl,ere <.raR and there st:lll is a lot to sho~· for jt. It waR not, all of it, ,,r"fsely or pru<'ently spent, not all of it. Some of it was wasterl. "But in those twenty-three years tll.e spenc:1-!np of that tremem\ous, that v11st smn accomplished r;reat things for the new Province, undeniably. Ne~~founilland is to clay what we made it in those tventy-three years ~dth that $3 billion of ~>h:lch nearly $700 m:11 1 ion l•'as pub] :1 c rl.ebt.

The 0ppos1.tion of that day - that is the present adl":l.nistrat:lon- were aghast at our spending. "'hey were Rhockerl. '!'hey '"ere tnd:l.gnant. ~~ewfoundland was bankrupt they snhl. ll'e'"'fnundland 1vas :Insolvent. Smalh·ood had brought the Province to the ed~e of disaster and collapse • Smallwood had proven that he d:ld nnt knol·' l>m·• to t!'anage Nel·rfoundland 's affairs.

It was a pecuJ iar accus~.tion about a 111an lvho hac1 headed our affairs for over t~-renty years at that point, all the more peculiar cominr: from men l}ho hnc1 had no experience at all in managtng Newfoundland's affairs and precious little experience managing any other kinds of affairs • . ~ lot of people believec' thetr harsh criticism of my administ'l!'ation ~mel of me,and a lot of rlecent well--!!1eaning people in our Province. After a] 1 I had been captn:ln of the ship for twenty-three years, too long in the opinion of a majorHy as it turned out.