Manitoba Hansard — 28 May 1987 (Sitting 57, 33rd Legislature, 2nd Session)

33-2-57

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 28 May, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I have a statement on the ·western Premiers ' Conference which concluded yesterday in Humboldt, Saskatchewan . I have also tabled the seven joint communiques which were issued during the conference .

Premier Devine, Premier Getty, Premier Vander Zalm and 1" all agreed that the conference was worthwhile and productive. For Manitoba, the most important results were strong consensus statements on agriculture and on western diversification . I would like to draw members' attention to some of the most important sections of the communiques from our perspective . Communiques No. 1 and No. 2 both dealt with agriculture .

The first communique states : Current circumstances and the complexities of the GATT process require an increased level of domestic farm income support until progress in the international policy arena is reflected in price and income improvements for farmers . The Premiers, therefore , called on the Government of Canada to make an early announcement in 1987 for an increased and substantial deficiency payment , due to the continuing decline in prices and incomes .

Premiers called for the method of the federal deficiency payment to fairly recognize provincial and regional differences and to cap individual payments at equitable levels. The Premiers also called on the Government of Canada and other world grain producers and exporters to adopt a "last track" to negotiate an end to subsidies and a reduction in world stocks. Western Premiers also requested a more proactive and humane approach towards world food aid and agriculture. The excessive world food surpluses and growing numbers of people are an unacceptable situation .

The Premier has called upon Canada, and other countries, to direct their aid programs to move these surpluses to those most severely in need . The Western Premiers offered to work with the Government of Canada to develop programs in this aid area. The second communique on general agricultural issues deals with farm debt, stabilization, grain transportation, milk marketing and research for cost reduction . The specific

section on farm debt states : "The Premiers expressed the need for action on the growing debt crisis in agriculture. They asked their Ministers of Finance and Agriculture to conduct an early review of existing programs, including the Farm Credit Corporation , as well as new approaches to agricultural financing, such as, the specific equity financing proposals . As part of the review, western provinces will examine ways of restoring the dominant federal role in agricultural financing across Canada .

Premiers agreed that the Federal Government must be more aggressive in capital programs as well as in traditional means of agricultural financing, such as, operating loan guarantees" . The same communique also includes the following important statement under the Grain Transportation heading : "The Port of Churchill , once again , received the support of Western Premiers . They urged continuing efforts to take advantage of opportunities for expanded activity at Churchill" . Along with agriculture, Manitoba's other top priority for the Humboldt Conference was western diversification.

Here, too, the Western Premiers sent a clear message to the Government of Canada . Communique Number five on Western Diversification states : ". . . The Premiers urged that an early announcement be made detailing the federal strategy for economic diversification in Western Canada .

The Premiers expressed concern over federal practices which direct most industrial expansion and development assistance to central and eastern Canada, and reiterated their desire for more equitable federal participation in western diversification, with particular attention to each province's economic circumstances, strengths and potential. A further area of inequity is the disproportionately low percentage of federal procurement directed -towards Western Canada. A fair procurement and federal agency decentralization program would increase employment and provide significantly more security for Western Canadians.

Underlining their commitment to a cooperative approach, the Premiers agreed to establish a western Ministerial working group on diversification to design, with the Government of Canada, the imminent federal strategy, and to promptly report progress to the Premiers . Communiques were also issued on: - Ren·ewable and Non-renewable Energy Resources - Trade Negotiations - Federal-Provincial Regulation of Securit ies, and 2492

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 - The Meech Lake Accord . Because the Western Premiers ' statement on Meech Lake Accord has received considerable attention, I believe I should read it in full for the record . The communique states: "The Western Premiers expressed their collective satisfaction that efforts begun at the Annual Premiers ' Conference in Edmonton in 1986, to l:>ring abput Quebec's full and active participation in the Canadian federation, were on the point of achieving success.

They unanimously reiterated their commitrpent to the spirit of the Meech Lake Accord and pledged themselves to ttie conclusion of a constitutional amendment which was fully reflective of that agreement. They called on · all First Ministers to reject pressures to alter the intent of the Accord. "The Western Premiers also discussed their respective objectives in relation to the second round of constit4tional discussions provided for in the Meech t.:E!ke Accord. British Columbia a11d Alberta expressed support for the Triple E Senate .

Manitoba and Saskatchewan agreed to consider a wide range of reforms." · Thl:l next regular meeting qf Western Premiers will take pl11ce in British Columl:>ia in the spring of 1968. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBE~S: Oh , oh! HON. H. PAWl-f:Y: 1/Yhat did I say? Did I? I'm sorry, Madam Speaker. I'm told I said 1968. I know Opposition sometimes accuse me of living 20 years behind times - 1988. . Thank you, Madam Speaker. M"D~M SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thallk the PrerT)ier for giving us that

summary of the Westerri First Ministers' meeting that he recently attendee! in t-lumboldt. Perhaps the slip that the Premier made in referring to 1968 is reflective of the fact that l]C>rmally, when he's looking for a re~ponse to questions or criticisms from this side, he has to try and delve back into previous Conservative administrations to lino a source of response . Madal'T!

Speaker, I do want to acknowledge the efforts of the Western · Premiers i!') arriving at aweement on a number of issues, partic:4IwIy Western c!jyersjfication, an issue of importal'1ce, of course, to all of us in the West, and particularly the statements that they make with respect to agriculture, recognizing the importance that they place upon agriculture as an industry c1:1ntrat to our fortunes in Western Canada .

I acknowledge the fact that there were some of the longer range issues to do with trade, to do with the tariffs, the · supports that are being imposed tq the detriment of western farms, and the necessity for 4s to ensure that we attack that, as well as provide the needed temporary assistance for our farmers over the short term. Madam Speaker, I do have to acknowledge though that the Premier's comments toward the needed federal support ring a little hollow when we compare his urging of more and more federal aid to his own action , his government's action.

Madam Speaker, we need look no further than to look at his provincial partners who , as well of course, with I think a good deal more credibility, were able to put forward the call for federal support in deficiency payment, because they have put their money on the table to indicate their commitment to agriculture. For instance , Saskatchewan - $1 .5 billion in their most recent budget, $1 .5 billion; for instance, Madam Speaker, Alberta - over a half million dollars (sic) committed; Manitoba - $84 million .

That's the comparison that we have to make whe11 we look at the commitmel')t of Manitoba versus the commitment of other Western Provinces, with respect to the saving of agriculture and the support of agriculture at its time of dire need right row. Madam Speaker, looking a little further at the communique that's been issued, I regret that the Premier se1:1ms to have taken a doctrinaire position against the Triple E Senate; a doctrinaire position that won't allow him to go along with the wishes of, I believe, the vast majority of Manitobans.

Madam Speaker, I (I' think that's regrettable given the outcry that this Premier ' · .

Pl!t forward after the CF-18 issue, when he suggested )hat 11\18 must have a transference of powers to Western Car,ada; a greater regional power for Western Canada to ensure that we c:ould fight against decisio11s such as ttiat in fuNre . · Madam Speaker, many, many Manitobans, I would venture to say hundreds of thousands of Manitobans, beiieve that Senate Reform is the key to that distribution of power for the western regio11, arid that it involves a concept sµch as the Triple E Senate, so ttiat we can, once again, have the opportunity to have a stronger vojce !n the central <3overnment of Canada.

Unforfunate ly, this Premier is taking a very narrow qoctrinaire view arid opposing that kind of movement for Western Canada that would give us the benefits tllat we loqk for.

But, Madam Speaker, having said that , having said that I thank the First Minister for his report, and we will d1:1bate some of these issues further in the Legislature, because we believe that the Premier, although the prob!ems have been ide11tified, thanks to 11 1·• the collective efforts of the Western Premiers, that this , Premier isn 't necessarily in touch with the proper solutions. · MINISTERl"L ~TATENIENTS ANP TAB'-ING OF REPORTS N!ADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. · HQN. ~ - MACKLING: Yes, Madam Speaker .

It is with pleasure that I table the 1986 Annual Report of the Pay Equity Bureau of the Department of Labour . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, Madam Speaker. I'd like to table the Supplementary Information for the Department of Government Services for the 1987- 88 Estimates . 2493

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. E. KOSTYRA introduced, by leave, on behalf of the Attorney-General, Bill No . 46, The Charter Compliance Statute Amendment Act, 1987; Loi de 1987 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives afin d 'assurer le respect de la Charle . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have 9 students from Red River Community College, under the direction of Miss Karen Cohen .

The school is located in the constituency of the -Honourable Minister of Housing; and we have 58 students from Grade 5 from the Meadows School under the direction of Miss Beverley Ransom, and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Brandon West. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Meech Lake Accord - changes in wording by Premier MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Yes, Madam Speaker .

During the course of the past 10 days or so, my question is for the Premier I might indicate, during the course of the last 10 days we've heard the Premier musing or commenting to the effect that he wasn't happy with some of the wording of the Meech Lake Accord , yet he has presented to us a communique which indicates that he has given his support to a statement that says that "the four Western Premiers unanimously reiterated their commitment to the spirit of the Meech Lake Accord, and pledged themselves to the ·conclusion of a constitutional amendment which was fully reflective of that agreement." Can the Premier indicate , given that next week he will be getting together with his fellow First Ministers and the Prime Minister to put the finishing touches on the final legal wording of the Constitutional Accord; will the Premier, or will he not, be demanding any changes in the wording of the Meech Lake Agreement when he meets with his other First Ministers next week?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Oppos ition referred to the communique from Humboldt. It clearly specifies, not the Accord, but the intent and the spirit of the Accord. And as I indicated, prior to my departure, in response to a question from the Member for River Heights, I do support the intent, the spirit of the Meech Lake, in fact, as interpreted by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons, I fully agree with his definition of the intent of Meech Lake. I have expressed some concerns in respect to some of the

interpretations that had been given to, particularly the power of the Central Government vis-a-vis federa l spending programs. Some of the

interpretations that we have seen given to that by constitutional and political people, particularly from the Province of Quebec , I believe that the spirit of the Meech Lake Accord - because as I indicated upon my return April 30th, a statement of principles must be reflected clearly in the legal text. So, yes, there is a meeting of officials, in fact, taking place tomorrow further working on wording. We do have some need , I think, to satisfy ourselves that that intent is very clearly reflected in the wording that finally results from Meech Lake.

And I must satisfy myself , and I know Manitobans would want to satisfy themselves, that the legal text refiected the spirit and intent of Meech Lake . MR. G. FILMON: Well, I wonder if the Premier could indicate then whether or not it is his intention to put forward changes in wording for that legal text. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I am certainly considering some minor and some technical wording changes that I believe ought to be considered at Meech Lake in order to ensure that that provision , which is the one that we're most concerned about - I know other Manitobans may be concerned about other provisions - truly reflects the intent, so there is no possibility of any ambiguity which, I think, has given rise to some of the

interpretations that are being given gratuitously by a number of spokespersons in Quebec . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , I would hope that the Premier would share those.changes that he's going to put forward, if he decides to put some forward at that time . Native self-government - Premier withholding signature MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I understand that some Native groups have also approached the Premier, in fact, our meetin9 with the Premier prior to his meeting next week, with the request, in fact, the demand that he not sign the Accord on the constitutional amendment, unless and until a guarantee of Native self-government in the Constitution is achieved . Will the Premier be submitting to that demand and withholding his signature as a result of that position? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, it is true, as the Leader of the Opposition has indicated, that I will be meeting with some leaders of the Native community who are quite concerned in respect to whether or not their position has been compromised, in regard to future discussions , relating to the process of arriving at a system of self-government. It is our view, when this was discussed - in fact I raised this matter at Meech Lake, the aboriginal concern - it was felt in the discussion that took place at Meech Lake that the Native population are assured now, under

Section 36, I believe it is, that the process can be picked up at anytime, to have further discussions toward establishing Native self-government. 2494

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 I would hope, and I would certainly urge fellow First Ministers and Native leaders, at the proper time, to again pick up the issue of Native self-government and give it another attempt, to see if we cannot resolve these very, very difficult issues that do relate to the aboriginal people in Canada and their desire to obtain self-government. Certainly, from Manitoba's perspective, we will support efforts to do so.

I do not believe that the wording of the Meech Lake statement prejudices the cause on the part of the Native people in finally arriving at the self-government objectives they've set for themselves . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, so I then would presume that he is not prepared do withhold his signature on that issue? Thank you. Meech L~ke Accord - powers to provinces MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker , my further question is that former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau has recently denounced the Meech Lake Accord ; in fact, has questioned the political motivation of the Premiers in joining in on the Meech Lake Accord ; and has, in fact, accused the Premier and his fellow First Ministers of rendering the federal state totally impotent , as a result of their participation in this Meech Lake Accord . I wonder if the First Minister can indicate what powers will be given to the provinces , at the expense of Ottawa, under the Meech Lake Accord? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, first I must say that I think it's regrettable that the former Prime Ministe r felt it necessary to attack the messengers of a message that he disagreed with , and that attack , I think, was unfortunate in respect to all First Ministers, including the Prime Minister . I don't think it helped the former Prime Minister's message to do so. I guess, Madam Speaker, my vision of Canada differs from the vision of the former Prime Minister of Canada.

I don't see the Constitution enshrining some rigid centra l authority , in which there's no room for flexibility from province to province, insofar as the development of national programs that are in the exclusive provincial jurisdictional area. I believ~ there must be room, Madam Speaker, on the part of individual provinces to have breathing room in order to develop, with their creativity , their own sense of innovation , programs relating to the individual provincial circumstances that exist in different regions and areas of Canada. So it's a question of finding a proper balance .

I believe the former Prime Minister has gone to an extreme in believing that everything must be very centrally designed and crafted . It's contrary, I must say, to what the former Prime Minister wrote a number of years ago before he became Prime Minister, about the need for indeed that kind of creativity on the part of provincial administrations. He appears to have changed his mind after his election to the Federal House of Commons , from papers that he had written prior to his election to the House of Commons.

I'm sorry, Leader of the Opposition, I know you're impatient, Madam Speaker, in getting into some detail. I forgot the final question that the Leader of the Opposition had raised, what particular areas of responsibility were devolved from the Federal Government to the provinces? And I know the Leader of the Opposition wants me to answer that , if you wouldn't mind, Madam Speaker .

First, Madam Speaker, the provinces I think were given an important acknowledgement in their being able to provide to the Federal Minister of Justice a list of candidates that they would recommend insofar as appointments to the Supreme Court of Canada . No. 2, there was the opportunity for provinces, if they so wished, to enter into immigration agreements. Just as was requested on the part of Quebec, any province can enter int o a similar immigration program so that it's not a situation that Quebec got something quite different than other parts of Canada.

As honourable members know, and I've acknowledged my own particular leanings in this respect, but we were given the option of providing lists of names insofar as Senate appointments were concerned . All provinces were given the right to participate in unanimity insofar as any further changes were concerned, to constitutional changes vis-a-vis the House of Commons , the Supreme Court composition and the Senate . That was included in, I believe ,

Section 41, by way of a revision . Transfer of powers to render Fed. Gov't impotent MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , just one final supplementary then . Is it his position , the First Minister's position then, that those powers having been transferred will render the federal state totally impotent? HON. H. PAWLEY: Well, Madam Speaker, I certainly disagree with that

interpretation. I don 't know how that can be a suggestion in any way, shape or form; and I acknowledge my surprise that that

interpretation could , at all, be given to what I believe were reasonable compromises arrived at within a spirit of unity by all 11 First Ministers at Meech Lake. MTS survey of province to include questions of political preference MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I have a brief question for the Minister responsible for the Telephone System arising out of this morning's committee hearing. It was revealed at that time that the Telephone System Board has approved and will be very shortly undertaking a major survey of the province.

I believe a sample of 5,200 will be surveyed by criteria and research at a total cost, including telephone costs , of some $150,000 .00. Well, Madam Speaker, given that in the past every time this government has done surveys, for instance, as the Manitoba Hydro did for the Limestone project, as they have done on other economic development issues, and they have hired a pollster to do this, they 2495

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 have piggybacked on it questions on political preferences. Will the Minister indicate whether or not it is the intent , or whether in fact they will be piggybacking questions of political preference on that sur vey of 5,200 Manitoba households? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable M inister responsible for MTS . HON. G.

DOER: Madam Speaker, at the committee hearing you heard very clearly that the survey, which is very, very significant in terms of the long-term Capital development of rural improvements in this province , has been the whole evaluation of that survey at the technical level, the qualitative level , at the evaluation level, at the executive staff level of the Telephone System and then to the board, was outside of any political interference at all, and they will stay that way, Madam Speaker .

I said again at the public hearing this morning it's a survey that will be used to consult with Manitobans 'about their priorities for rural improvements and that is a survey that will be made public, and at that time , Madam Speaker, you'll see very clearly the survey will be dealing with improving rural services, a priority for this government , not dealing in the past . MR. G. FILMON: In the past , these surveys that have been done, as I say, by the Manitoba Hydro on Limestone . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G.

FILMON: Yes. . . . were not surveys of a political nature, but on those surveys were piggybacked questions of political preference. Will he assure the House that there will absolutely not be any questions ,piggybacked on that survey of political preference? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, I can't respond to the polls from the past, but I would say that this is going to be a survey that is going to be used to establish the priorities of rural Manitobans in terms of where the major capital expenditures are going to be made in this prov ince; and that is the only thing that will be on that survey, Madam Speaker .

It will be a survey on the priorities of people, in terms of telephone service, nothing else, Madam Speaker . Infant deaths - mother from Northern Manitoba MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I have a question for the Minister of Community Services. Yesterday she referred to two infant deaths , one of which involved a 16-year-old mother and a 3-week-old infant. Could she inform the House whether the mother was from Northern Manitoba and, therefore , under the care of her department, rather than the Northwest Family Services? .

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I did under take yesterday to report on the status of the two deaths , plus the six from last year, plus the process followed with the deaths. I'm prepared to do that, but in answering the specific question , both cases are in the hands of the Chief Medical Examiner and the police and I've been advised not to make furthe r comments at this time with regard to the details . I can though , if this is the appropriate time , outline the process that we follow in reviewing a death . MR. G.

MERCIER: I'm only asking the Minister, who had jurisdiction over that case? Was it the Northwest Child and Family Services or was it in fact her department, in view of the fact the mother was from Northern Manitoba? HON. M. SMITH: There are several factors with regard to jurisdiction that concern us. The immediate concern about Northwest had to do, not with the current status of the case, but with their termination of the case, we believe, in appropriately a short time before.

Again, I do not wish to go into too much detail because when there are police investigations, there is some risk, that if we comment too much publicly, prior to a decision about a court case occurring, we may in fact jeopardize the case . As I say, I think the general approach that is taken with regard to a death , there is an internal investigation within the department that proceeds, there is also the involvement of the child protection centre, the police and the chief medical examiner and, if appropriate, the courts.

And then a return to our agency and the determination then, to make public the findings, only after the court case is decided and the termination of the appeal period. With regard to the jurisdiction of this particular case, again I will be prepared to comment in specific terms when that total review is made . Hasiuk, E.- areas of dissatisfaction MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, the Minister said yesterday, with respect to Mr. Hasiuk's removal as director of Child and Family Services, that this was an admission to the agencies that the director has not performed at an optimum level.

Would she indicate the areas where the directorate has not performed satisfactorily, and for how long a period of time has that unsatisfactory level of services been carried on? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, in the carrying out of Child and Family Services, government has never had a fully developed accountability process. It didn't exist under the old Child and Family Service Agency in Winnipeg and it is one of the areas still being worked on in the development of the new.

The new legislation does give the authority to the directorate to develop that accountability, but in the working with the agencies, many of them have been insisting on autonomy. It's been the position of the government all along, that the legislation does give the accountability responsibility to the directorate, working in a sense by delegating authority to the agencies and then calling them accountable. What we have now is less than optimum, but it's not as if there ever has been a procedure here, 2496

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 or in fact our research tells us, elsewhere in Canada , to hold community agencies fully accountable . It's that challenge that we are undertaking to develop , Madam Speaker . MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , it's very difficult to get an answer. The Minister has said that the removal of Mr. Hasiuk was an admission of the failure of the directorate to perform satisfactory . In which areas was the directorate not performing satisfactorily and for how long? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, the directorate has never played a strong proactive role in terms of the accountability through the system.

They have administered the act and the agencies have been held accountable through the courts, Madam Speaker . It is our belief that we must have an additional set of procedures whereby , in an ongoing way, the agencies in their carrying out of their program and the delivery of the services, are held much more explicitly accountable ~ There has been an accountability process through the courts under the legislation, but it's our belief that we must move to have much tighter and more timely, both control and accountability procedures that are clearly understood .

We have acknowledged in Estimates that the volume of increase in the Child and Family Service and the complexity of the large number of cases in child abuse, have produced a period of time in the directorate where we have not felt that we were moving as quickly or effectively as we wanted in the accountability area, and it is that area of work which we are now concentrating on. Mr. Mendelson and Mrs. Turnbull - role in and reason for removal MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, the Minister has removed Mr. Hasiuk and suspended Mr. Maloney . She has not made any mention of former Deputy Minister, Mr.

Mendelson , and the Assistant Deputy Minister , Mrs . Turnbull, who have been in control of this program while she 's been Minister . What has their role been in this whole matter, and why were they removed from their responsibilities? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, we have been building a system in the Child and Family Service and in the child abuse area.

We have been building from a time when many of the agencies were not accessible or sensitive to large numbers of people , where there were boards that didn't have a clear accountability to the community , and where the legislation and the dollars for programs were limited in scope . Now we have been moving throughout the department to new legislation, a broader range of services, more culturally appropriate services , but it is a building process, Madam Speaker.

The level of responsibility of each person in the system is determined by the job description and we have dealt with these personnel issues in what we think is an appropriate manner . MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , the Minister has condemned a career civil servant , Mr. Hasiuk. What 2497 comments will she make, or what was the role of Mr. Mendelson and Mrs . Turnbull? Did they also perform unsatisfactorily in their positions over the last three or four years, while they were in positions in authority above Mr. Hasiuk? MADAM SPEAKER: That question is repetitious .

Child and Family Services Directorate - people reviewing role of Directorate MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, who is reviewing the role in organization of the Child and Family Services directorate? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , would he repeat the question please? MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, the Minister indicated in her press release yesterday that the senior staff were directed to review the role and organization of the Child and Family Services Directorate . Who are those people and what are their positions? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, the Deputy Minister working with the team of ADM's are working jointly to look at the role and responsibility , and have made great proress in developing the task ahead. Again , I remind members opposite that we are moving from a time when the system did not have many of these capacities and developing a more effective and accessible system. MADAM SPEAKER: Order . I remind Ministers that answers should be brief. Northwest Child and Family Services - removal of board MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert . MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, when this government was upset with the Children's Aid Society they removed the entire board and established their own board. Does the Minister intend to remove the whole board of Northwest Child and Family Service s, or is she exercising ultimate authority and control over the activities of that board? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, it is our view that we are working cooperatively with the community boards to build a more effective system in Manitoba . Now we are prepared to work with boards , as we were prepared - or under my predecessor - to work with the old CAS board .

It was meeting an impasse there and also having legislation that didn 't give any option , other than persuasion or takeover, that was a limiting factor . We now have legislation that does enable us to move, as we have with a directive, to remedy a s ituation , which we think is risky, investigate it. And it is our intention to work with the board , again , most of the I ( t

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 board have accepted their role and their accountability and are willing to work with us. When we have satisfied ourse lves that the problems have been dealt with and cor rective action taken, we do expect to return full autho rity to the board . Infant deaths - tabling of investigative reports MR. G. MERCIER: Will the Minister now table the investigative reports into the infant deaths? . HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , the six deaths from last year, I am prepared to give an update on where we are at.

Now the reason for not tabling the information at the moment with several of the cases , is that they are before the cour t. There is an internal investigation and remedial action proposed between the directorate and the agency, along with a parallel review by the Chief Med ical Examiner and the police . Then, if there is a charge, the case goes to court, and until that is comp lete and the appeal period, we are not in a position to table the report.

The Felix report, was tabled; the Abraham report will be ready next week; the Mynette report is complete except for a report that we're awaiting from Alberta . ·There are no pol ice charges in it so it won't be cause for further delay. With regard to the Templeton, Pratt and Dmyterko reports, there are criminal charges laid so we must wait until they are complete before we can table reports . Then with the two new cases, until the Chief Medical Examiner and p olice have come to their determination, we cannot make fur ther comment. If there is no court case, we will then make available a

summary in short order. Maloney, Tim - suspension of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Community Services. ,Yesterday the Minister stated that Child and Family Services were mandated by her department, to provide. services and, therefore, the boards of these mandated ,agencies had a large degree of autonomy. Can the ,Minister explain why, if they are autonomous, Tim •Maloney was suspended at the request of her department? HON . M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, they are autonomous within the mandate given by the department through the legislation, but they must be held accountable . It is in our determination that we moved in with the directive to temporarily suspend Mr. _Maloney while we looked at the particular problems . Because, with the coming to light of the last two cases, particularly the last one, we had very profound concerns about the handling of the protection part of 'the case . This is a traditional responsibility and role carr ied out by the agencies.

There are well-established standards there, Madam Speaker, and the information brought to us on Tuesday gave us such concern that that agency was not, in fact, following good prac tice that we felt moving in with the direct ive and the temporary naming of a new executive director gave the appropriate balance between recogniz ing the autonomy and responsibilities of the boa rd, and our responsbility as the department with the legislation. Dept. of Community Services - changes re lines of responsibility MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplementary question to the same Minister .

Madam Speaker, can the Minister tell this House what changes will be made immediately in her department, so that there are clearly delineated lines of responsibility between her department and mandated agencies? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , the strengthening of the directorate and the call upon them to deal with those very issues, has been an ongoing concern, and part of the initial phase of the new regionalized agencies was to support them in their own development, and give them a real sense of ownership and responsibility .

Their accountability under the legislation has always been there, but it's been primarily affected through the courts. What I have asked my directorate to do, through the deputy - and in fact they have given me a work plan now with some clear time frames - is to come up with a plan whereby their role and responsibility, and the agency's, in terms of accountability and how to strengthen that total system, I have that in place, and will be working with them very closely to see that they meet the timetables and that we do in fact build in that accountability.

But, Madam Speaker, I have been inquiring whether there are other models that we can follow, or other provinces, and to date, Madam Speaker, no one has found a model, so in a sense we're developing .. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please . May I remind the Minister again that answers to questions should be brief . Dept. of Community Services - inquiry re functions of senior management MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. A final supplementary to the First Minister.

Will the First Minister call for an independent inquiry which will be conducted, either on a judicial basis, which would be my preference, or at least by independent consultants into the functions of senior management of the Department of Community Services to determine lines of responsibility and spending priorities to ensure that this department is meeting its obligation to children and families in this province? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I think in responding to that question we should look at the 2498

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 background prior to the development of the present function of that department. Madam Speaker , the Minister has taken leadership in ensuring that there be development of a better process in order to ensure that there be better child family care . Some of the cases , in fact , that have come to light would never have come to light under the old system. We wouldn 't have a chance to debate them because we wouldn 't know about them under the system that existed prior to the initiative on the part of this Minister. Madam Speaker, in addition , we were not aware of many child abuse cases.

It has been this government that has increased resources in order to ensure that child abuse cases be dealt with in the Province of Manitoba . It's because of changes , by way of the department , by way of the changes in the structure, that we're now able to deal with child abuse cases; able to bring those child abuse cases to light , Madam Speaker . And, finally, by way of reference to the Member for River Height's question , it has been this government that has responded with major, new resource allocations over the last number of years toward this area, as well as legislation .

Madam Speaker, any government takes a chance when it's prepared to initiate change to overcome what is an outdated situation. We were prepared to do that and , Madam Speaker, we're making improvements , improvements required in the future, we'll continue to make those improvements in this area . Manitoba Beef Commission - producers to sell animals through auction marts MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden . MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture about the Manitoba Beef Commission .

Madam Speaker , farmers enrolled in the Manitoba Beef Plan are forced to sell their fat animals through the Manitoba Beef Commission using the central desk selling principle. Madam Speaker, with the closing of Canada Packers, there's now much less competition in the carcass bid price . The result is that producers are now losing five cents to six cents a pound 011 animals that are sold through the central desk-selling system . This is five cents to six cents a pound ttiat producers could receive if they were able to sell their animals through the auction rings, the auction marts of Manitoba , Madam Speaker .

I would like to ask the Minister if he's now prepared to allow producers of fat animals , who are enrolled in the Manitoba Beef Plan, to sell their animals through the auction rings of Manitoba to receive full payment for their animals. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, first of all, the honourable member 's comparison, in terms of who is getting short or losing money, it depends which market one compares to, Madam Speaker. The honourable 2499 member should be aware that the price differential in the Manitoba market and those in Western Canada are very close .

There is, of course, a greater differential between other markets in terms of cattle . It depends to which market the member is in fact comparing to. Madam Speaker , the most can be received out of the market if, in fact , producers cooperate and market their animals centrally , is where we can get most out of the market rather than , in fact, splitting the market as between sellers.

Madam Speaker, it is my hope that, in fact , the suggestion made by the Manitoba Beef Commission to feedlot operators, that we combined our .marketing efforts and strategy and use whatever course of action , whether it be by auction, whether it be on rail grade, those kinds of options be considered , but that the selling of cattle be done on a cooperative basis to gain the mos t out of the marketplace , to gain the most competition out of the marketplace , for those animals that are there . MR. G.

FINDLAY: Madam Speaker, I'm glad that the Minister would like to see competition because, Madam ' ·' Speaker, right now the auction ring is . \ 1 MADAM SPEAKER: Question? Manitoba Beef Commission - Minister to prevent robbery of Manitoba producers MR. G. FINDLAY: Madam Speaker, I would like to just have a sentence of introduction to the question, please . Madam Speaker , the auction ring is where the competition is now that Canada Packers is no longer in Winnpeg. Madam Speaker , there 's a $50 robbery going on, on the backs of Manitoba farmers .

I would like to know if the Minister will act immediately to prevent this robbery of Manitoba producers in terms of the fat cattle sales through the Beef Commission right now. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, it appears that the Honourable Member for Virden is now making allegations that those buying cattle are making daylight robbery . Madam Speaker , that's quite an allegation coming from a Conservative member , Madam Speaker.

If producers were to cooperate and market centrally, we could in fact eliminate some of that highway robbery that the member is alleging occurs in the marketplace, and producers could gain the most out of the marketplace that they could, by cooperating . I certainly agree with my honourable friend that to gain the most out of the marketplace one has to cooperate and have a solid force there ; and the solid force in the marketplace, Madam Speaker , is the Manitoba Beef Commission's central marketing desk . Manitoba Beef Plan - fat animals to be sold through auction ring MR. G.

FINDLAY: Madam Speaker , given that calves and feeders can be sold through the auction ring under the Manitoba Beef Plan, why will the Minister not allow fat animals to be sold by the same principle? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , my honourable friend should be aware that there is only a certain size

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 of market within this province . Whether t hose cattle are marketed through an auction ring, or whether they're marketed through some other means , there is only a certain market , Madam Speaker, and that market can well be satisfied by the central and coordinated offerings of beel cattle through the Manitoba Beef Commission; rather than splitting it apart and, in fact, losing even more money by not coordinating the sales and being able to batch the cattle that are uniformly finished, and put them on the market in a uniform way, to get the most out of that marketplace. MR. G.

FINDLAY : Madam Speaker , when farmers market through the auction ring they get their payment the next day. Madam Speaker, it takes two weeks to get payment through the Manitoba Beef Commission . Will the Minister address that problem immediately? HON. B. URUSKI : Madam Speaker, that has been a situation that has been evident and clear and recognized from the day that the plan started . In fact, we've acknowledged that there is a delay in payment, but the delay, Madam Speaker, is because of the support and the calculation of the support level under the Beef Commission . A MEMBER: What support is there now? HON.

B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , the member says: " What support is there now?" Madam Speaker , the system has to still do the calculations. He would be the first member that would get up and say that we didn 't get our support if there was a miscalculation, and now he's advocating some other change in the system to basically screw it up. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . The time for Oral Questions has expired. The Honourable Opposition House Leader . MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, we're prepared to grant leave for one more question from the Member for River Heights before she leaves .

In view of the fact that , Madam Speaker , didn't recognize her when she was on her feet. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? MRS. S. CAASTAIRS : Yes, Madam Speaker, my question ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . Did I hear the honourable member has leave? It would take unanimous consent. (Agreed) Child abuse - lack of information on prior to NOP Government MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the First Minister .

In his statements a littl e while ago , he would have us believe and stretch our credibility, that children were murdered in this province, prior to the NDP com ing to office and changing the policy, that we didn 't know about it. Does the First Minister have proof th at, in fac t, children were kill ed in this province, for which there was no information, provided either in this Legislature or in public? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, there is a very lengthy history of child abuse, prior to the changes that have taken place for many, many years , prior to the changes that had been implemented by this Minister and the previous Minister responsible for Community Services . Madam Speaker , many instances and cases of child abuse, and I stand by the statement that what we do have now is a system by which the light is cast upon those cases of abuse, as it ought to be, to a much more extensive way than what it was previously.

I don't recall having accused anybody of murdering any children, but I'm saying, Madam Speaker, in answer to the Member for River Height's question, that the new system has cast light on the serious question of child abuse and has been prepared to deal with child abuse in a much more open, much more effective way in the Province of Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I'd like to ask leave of the House to make a non-political statement .

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I rise today to congratulate the students and organizers of the recent relay race in Winnipeg . Over 21,000 students and teachers from 85 Winnipeg schools participated in the run on Tuesday of this week. The run was organized by Kelvin High School's Cross Country Team and the Manitoba Marathon . Special congratulations should go to Lionel Orlikow and Allen Finkle, who spearheaded the event .

The event began at Kelvin High School at 7:20 a.m. and ended at 5:00 p.m. at Assiniboia Park . There were 16 circuits and 93 batons . This relay race was the world 's largest relay race ever and had nearly five times as many runners as the previous record holder . The relay race was an excellent way to celebrate Fitness Week and I'm sure all members agree that such events as this, and the Manitoba Marathon , do much to heighten public awareness just based on physical fitness. I might add, Madam Speaker, that the Manitoba Marathon , coming up next month, on June 21, is the 2500

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 second-largest marathon in Canada . I encourage all members to consider participating in that very worthwhile event. Thank you, Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I ask leave to make a non-polit ical statement. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? The Honourable Minister does not have leave . ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speake r, I believe - I'm somewhat hesitant to ask for leave - there is an inclination on the part of all members to forego Private Members' Hour today, by leave. MADAM SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: I, therefore , move , Madam Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Municipal Affairs , that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of Environment, Workplace, Safety and Health; and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Culture , Heritage and Recreation. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ENVIRONMENT AND WORKPLACE SAFETY AND HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: Committee come to order. We are here to review the Estimates for the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health.

We'll start with a statement by the Minister. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I do indeed , as I have advised the official critic , wish to begin by putting basically an overview of the department's operation on the record, and I have supplied a copy to my colleague . If I may begin then, Mr. Chairman , I am honoured first to present the Estimates of the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health .

This government remains firmly committed to the protection and enhancement of the quality of the workplace , public and natural environments, for the health, safety and well-being of present and future generations of . 2501 Manitobans. In accomplishing these objectives , the government is equally committed to providing opportunity for all Manitobans to exercise influence over the quality of their living and working environments . Members have received a copy of the departmental Supplementary Information for legislative review of Estimates .

This is the second year that the department has participated in the preparation of this information . You will note from this year's document that additional program information has been provided , and it is my sincere hope that this expanded information will assist members in proceeding with this Estimates review . I wish to extend my sincere thanks , as we begin , to all departmental staff , to the many organizations, largely volunteer, that participate on an ongoing basis in the public consultation process and to the many hundreds of Manitobans who have contributed to the delivery of the departmental programs.

With their help and, yes, at times , criticism , I believe that we are more effective in fulfilling our mandate. It is apparent when looking at the overall allocation to the department that resources continue to be extremely scarce . Given this scarcity , I am very pleased with the progress the department is making in the areas of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health. Operational efficiency is crucial if we are to fulfill our mandate. The department is proceed ing with a number of very significant initiatives , and I will be telling you more about these shortly .

Let me begin by focusing my remarks on Workplace Safety and Health . Improving safety and health in Manitoba 's workplaces can be related directly to the strength and commitment behind discretionary decisions centered in each individual workplace. Prevention measures are dependent on the meaningful participation of both workers and employers of the workplace . It is through joint Safety and Health Committees and worker safety and health representatives , established by The Workplace Safety and Health Act, that problems and concerns may be identified and addressed in the workplace.

Maximizing the strength of the system at workplaces across the province in order to reduce accidents and illness is a goal of my department. My department plays a crucial role through both enforcing and supporting effective workplace act ion in addressing and controlling health and safety risks to workers . The department util izes a framework of interconnected strategies for workplace safety and health , which include the creation of law, its enforcement, and the provision of education and service support to workplaces.

The development and application of incentives, advocacy activities, and research and development are other areas where the department's efforts are directed . All of those strategies are interdependent and work together toward ensuring that Manitoba's work sites are safe and healthy places .

The foundation of our continuing efforts to prevent workplace accidents and industrial diseases is our vigilant attention to ongoing activities such as conducting enforcement inspections of workplaces, organizing and assisting Workplace Safety and Health Committees and worker safety and health representatives, conducting industrial hygiene surveys, providing training assistance and support to Workplace

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 Safety and Health Committees and other interested groups. These endeavours are a cornerstone of past and future progress in workplace safety and health in the Province of Manitoba . As the knowledg e and experience of workplace participa nts matu res or as conditions of workplaces change, new issues emerge for our immediate attent ion. Withi n the last year, our activities have focused also on areas such as smoking in the workplace and AIDS in the workplace .

In add it ion, each year there are a number of workplace safety and health issues in specific situation s that require par ticular attention from the departme nt. Workplace concerns regarding anesthetic gases in hospital operating rooms and air pollution concerns in art rooms in schools and taxicab security have been pursued by the department over the last year. Our efforts in these issues utilize the underlying principles of workplace safety and health that form the base of our activ ities in all workp laces.

You may recall from my remarks of last year, it was my depa rtment's intent ion to introduce a workplace health regulation , which is a major initiative developed in consu ltation with employers and workers . The introduction of this regulation has been slightly delayed , but I am pleased to confirm that this regulation will, in fact, be implemented very soon . I believe it is evident to anyone who has had opportuni ty to review draft s of this regulation that there is a substantial job ahead of us. The benefits in reducing health hazards, however , are significant.

Our goals in the first year of implementation of this regulation are to obtain and tra in field staff necessary for ongoing impleme ntation ; to develop and disseminate educational programs for employers, workers and Safety and Health Committees ; to provide assistance with acquisition of information on hazardous materials; to provide monitoring equipment and training in its use to committees ; to conduct workplace inspections to ensure compl iance and to identify areas that would benefit from educational assistance; to foster the deve lopment and growth of alternative sources of assistance; to monitor and review prevention plans; and, finally, to develop a data base system to record information .

In orde r to meet our government 's objectives, substantial additional resources have been approved to implement the regulation and to allow us to advance to a more effective role in preventing work-re lated injury and illness . In overall terms, this amounts to an increase in staff years , along with additional funding of approximately $300,000 .00.

I am also pleased to report that the national Workplace Hazardou s Materials Informat ion System (WHMIS), which has been unde r discussion for several years by rep resentat ives of industry, labour and government , has also been adopted and will proceed to implementat ion nationally. Manitoba has played

an act ive and significant role in th is process . This project was initiated to ensure that information on chemical hazards would be available in the workplace and that a single uniform system would be in effect across Canada . Manitoba sees the results of this effort as being both useful and complementary to the safety and health delivery system in general and to the workplace health regulation specifically .

It has been recognized during the co nsult at ion process dealing with the workplace health regulat ion tha t we must be cognizant of the econo mic impact of this regulation on small business in the pro vince. In order to ensure that the regulation does not alter the economic viability of this important sect or of t he provincial economy, a study being c ondu cted by departm ent staff will assist in recognizing the particular needs of small busine ss in this reg ard . It is my expectat ion that this study will be completed by the end of the calendar year.

In addition to this very major regulato ry underta king, the department is proceeding with the development or amendment of other regulations and codes of practice . These include : a code of practice relating to asbestos; the construction of regulation Parts Ill and IV; a revised spray processing regulation and code of practic e; a lead code of practice ; a revised first aid regulation ; revision to the Safety and Health Committee regulation and codes of practice ; and a new industr ial regulation.

In addition , a revised mines regulation was completed , adopted and announced publicly at the Mine's Safety Conference in Thompson this last February. Although the workplace health regulat ion is the flagship of our new initiatives in Workplace Safety and Health, there are a number of other very important activities that are taking place in this area. I made reference last year to a study to review occupational health serv ice needs in the province . This study is now close to completion and I expect to receive a final report from the Study Advisory Committee very shortly .

Without attempting to prejudice the contents of this report, it is nevertheless my expectation that a number of positive recommendations for important improvements will be outlined in the area of occupational health services . Another sector within Workplace Safety and Health that will undergo change during the 1987-88 fiscal year is that of radiation protection services . In past years , these services were provided to the Workplace Safety and Health Division by way of contract with the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation.

In order to ensure that this service is provided in the same fashion as are other workplace related services, the department is recruiting radiation expertise and establish ing its own in-house program . The divis ion will hereafter monitor and audit employer compliance in the area of radiation protection . Finally, I wish to make a few brief remarks about the Hearing Conservation and Noise Control Program. The Hearing Conservation and Noise Control Regulation has been in effect for approximately 17 months .

There has been substantial activity to promote public awareness and voluntary compliance with the regulations; as well, several training courses have been presented. During the months that this regulation has been in effect , some 66 improvement orders have been issued to employers with satisfactory compliance schedules received from 29 employers , and progress being made with the remaining 37.

In addition, the Divisional Equipment Loan Program (sound level meters and noise dosimeters) to employers and safety and health committees has been very successful , and has resulted in many employers implement ing hearing conservation meas ures voluntarily. 2502

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 Several associations have provided valuable assistance and support in implementing this program, including the Mining Association of Manitoba, the Manitoba Speech and Hearing Association , the Manitoba

section of the American Industrial Hygiene Association and the Manitoba Federation of Labour - Labour Education Centre. I would like to take this opportunity to publicly express our sincere appreciation for their cooperation. A major effort is currently under way to facilitate implementation of hearing conservation programs within educational institutions. Further work will continue to ensure compliance by all affected industries . I now wish to speak to you about the Environmental Management Division of my department.

Although most of my remarks will focus on three significant initiatives, namely, The New Environment Act, the progress being made with respect to hazardous and special waste management and the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation, there are numberous other ongoing activities within environmental management that I will also touch upon. Acid rain continues to be a major international environmental issue and one in which I am pleased to say Manitoba plays a very positive role.

In addition to continuing with ongoing monitoring and participating in discussions with other provincial jurisdictions and the Federal Government, a proposed regulation limiting Manitoba's SO2 emissions to 550 kilotonnes per year by 1994 from the current 738 kilotonnes per year has been drafted and public hearings are currently being held in the North and in Winnipeg. Our stance is a very proactive one. We are taking action before experiencing the problems that now face our eastern neighbours . In April of this year, I signed an agreement with my federal counterpart, the Hon.

Tom McMillan, which outlines the commitments of both of our governments to fight acid rain. Specifically, we have now the assurance of some federal financial assistance, if necessary, which will assist in meeting our emission control targets . Although the department's main legislative thrust revolves around the new Environment Act, there are also a number of other regulatory initiatives that the department continues to pursue.

We are placing high priority on revisions to our waste disposal ground and gasoline and associated products regulations , and to the development of a new waste water treatment facilities regulation . In the longer term, we will be developing new regulations to control ashphalt plants, stack sampling facilities and public water supplies; and we will also be looking at possible revisions to our swimming pool and livestock production operations regulations .

With respect to the Churchill Scrap Metal Clean-up Project, which I referred to in my remarks last year, I am pleased to advise that this project has been completed with some 4,000 tonnes of scrap metal having been removed from Churchill and transported to Southern Manitoba for recycling. As well, the Northern Litter Study has been completed. The department will continue to work with affected northern communities to follow up on the recommendations of this report.

I am also pleased to advise members that as part of Environment Week Activities, it is the intention of 2503 my department to conduct househo ld hazardous waste days on an annual basis. Based on the success of the program carried out last year, it is my belief that it is important to continue to make available to City of Winnipeg residents a means of properly and safely disposing of hazardous and other unwanted products.

With respect to the Manitoba Waste Exchange, as members will recall from previous Estimates reviews, the department has for the past two fiscal years provided 100 percent of the funding support for this operation . I must advise that the department is withdrawing its direct funding support for the Waste Exchange . This is not to suggest that the department does not support the concept of recycling nor that the efforts of the Manitoba Waste Exchange will have been for naught . Options are being explored to arrive at a less costly method of continuing the provision of this service.

I am optimistic that, either through the department directly or through the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation , these re-use opportunities can continue . But I must add that we continue to provide a grant annually toward t. 'e operation of the Canadian Waste Exchange. As you may recall, concern about the recovery and recycling of the new aluminum beverage containers was raised during the 1986-87 Estimates review. I am pleased to report that a program by the Manitoba Soft Drink Association has been operating since last fall.

The highlights of this program are as follows : the collection of containers is occurring at 17 shopping centres on a biweekly basis; the main collection depot operates on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 3:00 p.m . to 6:00 p.m. , and on Saturdays , 10:00 a.m . to 5:00 p.m. Manitoba education is utilizing an information package prepared on the program for use in schools. Payment for aluminum cans is based on current market value of aluminum. From September 16, 1986 to January 31, 1987 some 283,000 cans have been collected or 12,000 lbs. of aluminum.

Efforts will continue to establish third party depots in Thompson, The Pas and other rural centres . It is hoped that plastic bottles can also be included in this program sometime during the course of this summer. Pesticide management continues to be a high priority with the department. Two hundred and fifty pesticide use permits were issued during the last year. On the basis of last year's operations , it appears that no major problems were identified with respect to receiving applications and issuing permits.

The department's pesticide container disposal activities continue to operate quite successfully at the municipal level. During the past season, some 66 drums of pesticide residue were collected for storage at the Gimli facility. As well, approximately 145,000 metal pails were reported as being drained, crushed and recycled or buried at municipal landfills .

In addit ion, some 169,000 plastic containers were rinsed and disposed of by incineration or burial at local landfills : Recently, I and other provincial Ministers, through the auspices of Canadian Council and Environmental Ministers, met with the federal Ministers of Agriculture and Health regarding the pesticide registration process . The meeting was successful in that we received a commitment from the Minister of Agriculture to improve the flow of technical information regarding pesticides to the provinces, and to provide the provinces with

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 written justification for decisions made regarding particu lar pesticides . This information is critical for the provinces in implementing site-specific control '>rograms, and I look forward to excellent cooperation from the federal authorities . High-level nuclea r waste disposal will continue to be an issue in the province for the foreseeable future. We will not in this area be relaxing our vigilance, and I won't say more on that particular issue in that there is currently a bill which is at the Second Reading debate stage .

I also wish to reiterate the government's commitment to the new legislation before the House, which is designed to prevent the establishment of a nuclear waste disposal facility in our province.

Before moving on to those three key areas of environmental management which I mentioned in my Introductory remarks, I wish to briefly comment on the numerous ongoing activities in which the Environmental Management Division is engaged: public health inspection, water, air and terrestial quality monitoring; the enforcement of Clean Environment Commission orders; ensuring that existing water and air standards and guidelines are maintained; continuing to apply environmental assessment and review procedures are all a routine part of the division's mandate .

The l:lepartment's input into major government projects , such as the Limestone Hydro Generating Plant , to minimize adverse environmental effects are merely examples of these ongoing efforts . 1 In addit ion, the department continues to operate one bf Canada's most modern and cost-effective environmental laboratories, which suppl ies analytical services to both my department and other government tlepartments as well as the public . , Perhaps the most signi fi cant environmental 'undertaking of this Ministry , both during the last year and continuing into the current fiscal year, i s the development of the new environmental legislation which will govern our relationship to Manitoba's environment for many years to come.

You will recall from my remarks last year that the main provisions of this legislation, and those I reiterated at the Second Reading stage yesterday, are : a broadened scope in legislation "Jhereby all environmental damage will be considered togethe r, no longer will pollut ion and other forms of environmental damage be considered separately ; secondly , the system for reviewing pollution-related developments will be effective and expeditious with licences being issued by the department ; thirdly, environmental assessment will be done on a "single window" basis so that only one licence will be required for all environmental aspects of a development; fourthly, there will be extensive provisions for public consultation in environmental decision making; and finally, enforcement provisions are in keeping with the public mood that people should not benefit from damaging the environment through pollution or other means. ' I am pleased to report that the public consultation process involving many hundreds of Manitobans is achieving the objective of obtaining public input.

The end result will be much more practical and pragmatic legislation. During the course of numerous public meetings throughout Manitoba, the majority of which I personally attended, enables me to state quite bategorically in confirming that it is the public's desire to have implemented a broader, stronger Environment Act with emphasis on prevention. The public consultations I have just referred to represented the first critical step in bringing forward legislation for your consideration.

As a result of that public input, man y of the suggestions, proposals and comments received have been incorporated into the proposed legislat ion. As well, the principles that are the foundation for the new legislation have received - and I stress - unanimous supp ort and, I hope, will also be supported by all members of the Opposition. I would now like to move on to the Hazardous Waste Management Program. As you will recall, this program commenced in 1983. At that time , it was ind icat ed that it would take several years to have an effective hazardous waste management system in place.

I am pleased to note that the timetable that was struck in 1983 is being met , and the department continues to progress towards the goal of having a complete hazardous waste management system in place in Manitoba . Specifically, on the hazardous waste program side, I would like to bring to the attention of the members that, most recently, the Manitoba Clean Environment Commission has undertaken public hearings to solicit public input and suggestions with regard to the type of hazardous waste managemen t system that would be appropriate for Manitoba, and to establish criteria for site selection.

These hearings were well attended, and well-reasoned proposals were received from the public . The Clean Environment Commission has just recently finalized its report. At the departmental level, numerous activities are continuing with respect to the overall implementation of this program. On the regulatory side, a number of regulations are either in the draft stage or are about to be finalized .

Included among these are the regulation dealing with the registration and licensing of hazardous waste generators which will take effect June 1, 1987, the manifest regulation, and an environmental accident reporting regulation. In addition, a number of federal-provincial agreements dealing with the program are close to finalization, namely, a federal-provincial agreement regarding the enforcement of Transport of Dangerous Goods regulations , a Canada-Manitoba Accord and a Dangerous Goods Inspectorate Training Agreement .

Departmental staff continue to respond to public requests for information regarding this program in providing clarification to industry as to the requirements of the program, and are continuing in their assessment of waste types, existing waste-disposal facilities, etc. I am extremely optimistic that , during the 1987-88 year, following receipt of the Clean Environment Commission Report referred to earlier, the next phase of the program, which will see the determination of site selection criteria, as well as various technical studies that may be necessary to support the siting activity, will be well under way.

The third major environmental initiative that the department continues to focus on is the operational establishment of the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation. You will recall that enabling legislation to establish such a corporate entity was passed during the last Session. I am pleased to report 2504 p s w

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 that the corporation is starting to take life. A chairperson has been appointed, along with the other members of the board of directors. Action is proceeding to recruit at this very time a chief executive officer, following which other key corporation staff will be recruited. At the same time , the corporate agenda will certainly take shape with the issuance of the Clean Environment Commission's Report.

As well, the department is undertaking discussions with the corporation about the possible transfer of certain functions , which up to now have been carried out by the department, that more appropriately should become the responsibility of the corporation . Included among these are activities relating to the Manitoba Waste Exchange and the Gimili facility . The corporation has already assumed financial responsibility for provincial support to the Household Hazardous Waste Days activity.

I expect that the activities of the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation will accelerate quite significantly during the upcoming fiscal year. I also wish to mention, as members may be aware, that I, as Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health, chair the National Task Force on the Environment and the Economy. This task force was established under the auspices of the Canadian Council of Resource and Environmental Ministers to recommend a Canadian action plan to better link environmental and economic-planning initiatives.

The task force will also be reviewing the Report of the World Commission on Environment and Development . This task force is composed of seven Environment Ministers, seven senior business executives and three representatives from the university and environmental community . Our task force has met twice already, and a third and final meeting is scheduled for mid-August in Toronto. The fina l report of the task force will be submitted to the Annual Meeting of the Council of Ministers in Quebec City on September 23. I am looking forward to sharing the results of this endeavour with my colleagues in the House .

Before concluding, there are other areas of the department to which I want to refer briefly. The Worker Advisor Office continues to provide a most necessary support service to claimants who are experiencing difficulty in having the Workers Compensation claims resolved by the Workers Compensation Board . Although I wish I could say that claims of this type are diminishing, unfortunately with the increased number of claims being submitted to the board, there is also an overall increase in the number of claims being addressed by the Worker Advisor Office.

Statistics indicate that the level of activity and the need for advisor involvement in assisting claimants with their claims has not diminished . With respect to departmental support services , the Community Relations Branch continues to provide all communication requirements of the department. In addition to its regular communication activities, this branch is also responsible for supporting the communication requirements of our major new initiatives, the new Environment Act, the Hazardous Waste Management Program and the Workplace Health Regulation.

As well, the Community Relations Branch is playing a very significant role in chairing the National Task Force on Environment and Economy Secretariat. The department's Planning, Research and Evaluation Branch is making substantial progress towards the development of a comprehensive departmental strategic plan . I suppose that's an ongoing activity but at least we're getting a handle on it. It is expected that this plan will be completed during the 1987-88 fiscal year.

As well , Planning, Research and Evaluation staff continue to be extensively involved in a number of special projects, such as the Occupational Health Services Study, the implementation of the Workplace Health Regulation, trend monitoring and program evaluation . Just before I conclude , Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee, I want to express my sincere appreciation and thanks to my assistants and to a group that is rarely mentioned, the secretaries and all those involved in the support staff of the department, who play in the shadows a very significant ongoing support role to all members of my department.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you , Mr. Minister. The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for his report. I hope that he's around in a year's time to give the next report to see what's going to happen in some of the things that he has mentioned in his introductory speech .

Inasmuch as some of his department has been taken away from him, particularly the Workers Compensation , it leads me to believe that there had to be a reason , and I would think that the reason being is that there was a deficit of some $84 million in the Workers Compensation for this year and maybe it's just a matter of changing Ministers so they don't have to come up with the answers on why there's that big a deficit . I have some special feeling on the change inasmuch as I have been the critic on Workers Compensation these last few years, and we've gone through three Ministers.

I guess when it comes down to a point of trying to explain , they change Ministers so that they don 't have to explain. I see where the Minister has been thrown out to sacrifice and I don't know how he's going to explain it, but I guess he's going to try a little later to explain on why he's no longer the Minister. The new Minister is here at the committees listening, so that he can be responsible for the remarks made by the now Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health when he takes over this department next year.

I'm not asking for the Minister to resign under any circumstances, but I think that the way that the New Democratic Party Government handles things, he won't have to be asked to resign, they'll probably just replace him, because he's on a trial basis. I thought he was doing a half decent job, but I guess whoever makes the decisions had the opportunity of removing him and making a change. I still can't understand why it was broken up into the manner in which it was, Mr.

Chairman, because you know we're talking about workplace safety - or Workers Compensation , I should say - and the Minister still has the responsibility of worker advisors and part of the Workers Compensation portfolio, because Workers 2505

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 Compens ation and worker advisors and workplace safe ty seem to work hand in hand . I guess it' s greater minds than mine can see the importance of splitting it up, but I certainly can 't. There 'll be more on it as we go on a little bit furth er. These are just my opening remarks an·d when we get down to the line -by-line part we can get into more detai l. I'm not about to get into any great debate on The Envi ronment Act and the disposal of high level nuclear waste because we do have bills before the House at this point , Mr. Chairman , that we can get into some heavy debate .

By and large , I do agree with quite a bit of the bills that are coming through . I think that we do have to protect the environment . We do have to protect the future of our young people. I think that it' s something that we must be work ing togethe r. I'm not here to be critical. I think I'm here to work with the Minister and this department to see that things do get corrected . We've always been able to com e to an understanding and I think rather than getting into any great fights , if we can come to an unde rstanding which benefits all Manitobans , then I would be satisfied .

The Minister mentioned in his opening remarks about Environmental Week starting next week . I think that it's a good thing that we keep the public informed on environmental problems and things in Environmental Week and I will be in support of this particular aspect of his department . But he mentioned acid rain and that's a big problem . It's not just a provincial problem, you know.

Every time that we bring up acid rain and some of these other problems , I get an answer where the Minister says, well , you know , it's not my department , it 's a federal responsibility , or it's a municipal responsibility, but I say that if we've got a problem I think that we jump right in. It kind of reminds me of the story of the waitress who was in a restaurant and standing there right next to a table and there was one of the customers choking on a bit of food , and the party with the customer choking said , waitress, please , a glass of water.

And the waitress looked over and said , no, I'm sorry, that's not my table , it' s not my responsib ility. I don 't want to get an answer like that from the Ministe r. I think that whatever problems we have on Environment , Workplace Safety and Health are the responsib ility of this Minister and cannot be just passed off to other groups , mainly the Federal Government, which we seem to always go back to bashing. (lnterjection)- I'm not here to support the Federal Government; they 're pretty big boys and they can .look after themselves . But I think that we have to do someth ing.

I'm getting tire d of listening to the complaints that we have against t he feds , the municipal, and other provinc ial jurisdict ions. - (Inter jection)- Well, you know, I just don 't think that we should be blaming them altogether . I think that we should be doing something . You know , we bash the feds, we bash the Amer icans, you know , and we do have a problem there .

Let's get to acid rain , and I don 't want to get that specific , but I can recall attending a conference where I think it was an American Senator made a remark that he didn 't give a damn about the acid rain affecting Manitoba forests , and if it was going to affect the employment of one· Amer ican in his constituency, he didn 't g ive a damn how many Canadian trees went down . So I think we have to make them aware of what' s happening.

I don 't want to alienate our friendship with the United States because they are our fri end s, they are our best friends as a matte r of fact, but I th ink that there are times that we can deal with them not just on a federal level , on an internati onal level, but on a prov incial level.

I know that the Minister has made some particul ar efforts to discuss problems - mutual problem s - parti cularly with the clean water supply th at we get from the United States , but I think that we have to spend more time in making them aware of the probl ems that they are giving us through some of t heir mismanagement and they just have to be made aware. The Min ister made no remarks about the problem we've got about the drinking water supply out at Shoal Lake . Again , we just can 't pass it off and say it's somebody else's responsibility. It is our responsibility ; it's our drink ing water .

I think that the Minister has to make some effort to correct this situation and not just compla in that it's the Federal Government and it's the munic ipal government . I think he's got to jump in and ensure that our water supply in Winnipeg is at the highest of levels .

I think that there has to be investigations made on the Limestone site and whatever future sites that we have where we are putting new Manitoba hydro projects into use - we're talking about Conawapa and Limestone - and we just don 't jump into these places without having the proper environmental studies done , and I think that , in some cases, we have. In addition , we're talking about the potash in Western Manitoba where we don't know at this point whether the potash is a viable industry or not. I hear the Minister responsibile saying that it is a viable operation .

We're talking about 10 or 15 years down the line. Has there been an environmental study of where we're going to be storing all this potash that we're going to be mining for the next 10 or 15 years? Because I don't see where we've got a possibility of selling it, particularly with the flood on the market right now. So, in fact , we do have to find a place to store all of this potash . And what will be the env ironmental impact on storing hundreds and hundreds of tonnes of potash? The Minister made some remarks about the public consultation process .

Well, I guess I was a little bit involved with it because the Minister said that he had been to many of these meetings that went on throughout the province, and I had been to a few myself. I guess the Minister's statement was right. He was at a few of them because the ones that I was at, I saw the Minister . We talk about public consultation . Sure it's nice to listen , and I wonder whether, in fact , we are going to get the reports of the public consultation and the public commitment that were made to the government.

It leaves me a little bit cold when I see that the decision is the government's decis ion under all circumstances - the final decision is the government's . But I listen to the government's decision and I see where the Clean Environment Commission is holding publ ic hearings , and what is happening at these hearings is that there are recommendations being made to the Clean Environment Commission by the Minist er's staff so that the Clean Environment Commission can make 2506

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 recommendations back to the Minister 's staff. So I think that maybe we should just have a little bit more consideration as to this process that we're going through .

If the Minister's staff were going to be making recommendations - the recommendations were good; I'm not complaining about that - but I think that maybe we're attaching too much importance to this public consultation because I think what the Minister is ultimately doing is trying to get off the ultimate hook of taking the responsibility of what's happening because he can't say somewhere in the future that well, this is what the people wanted . If it's bad, it's not what the people want , and I think that further considerations and investigation have to go on.

I don't want the Minister to keep saying that we're going to be monitoring situations, looking into, checking the feasibility , weighing the prospect. These decisions are yours , Mr. Minister, and I think it's about time that the decision has been made . I hear where we're talking about site selections on the disposal of hazardous waste.

I don 't know what's come about at this point, but I think that the Minister has probably come up with some site selections, and maybe we're not going to have any site selections for hazardous waste, maybe we're going to be shipping it out of the province and maybe that's the best way to go, but I think that we ought to be told about it. It's not responsible . I think that the Minister has to make these decisions.

It's been over a year now when I last asked him about it and I've been getting, you know - again, I hate to keep saying, you know, the program evaluation, we're looking into it and checking the feasibility of all that . The Minister is writing very quickly and I guess what he's doing is sending notes to his staff so that they can give him a list of the site selections, or if he's got them, I'm sure that he's going to give them to us so that we can be critical or maybe we're going to be . A MEMBER: Supportive. MR. A. KOVANTS: Or supportive - that's right .

I'm not going to prejudge, but I've waited over a year now to find out where these site selections are. I hope that the Minister is going to give us some idea as to these site selections and whether he's going to bring us up-to-date on the disposal and the storage of PCB's - and I didn 't forget the last letter of the PCB because I did one time where I said that we had to get rid of - I made a small error where I said we had to get rid of "PC's" and I meant "PCB's ." HON. J. COWAN: If we had said that , there would have been a call for a judicial inquiry . MR. A.

KOVNATS: Well, there still might be a call for a judicial inquiry because, you know, I'm looking at human rights and I hate to be laughed at when I make a small error; but the more I thought of it, the more humorous it became and I was able to accept it. HON. J. COWAN: I only prefer to be laughed at when I make a big error . MR. A. KOVNATS: That's right . I don't mind making big errors and being laughed at, but . . . HON. J. COWAN: But small errors - we should let them go by. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Small errors, yes , but you know, I hope the Minister is going to give us the cost of converting, like we bought some equipment and there was nothing in the opening remarks about how the conversion of PCB's, at least low levels , that we had bought some equipment from Sun, Ohio and there was nothing in the Minister's opening remarks about it, but he'll have an opportunity of justifying the purchase of the equipment and give us an idea of how much of this stuff has been converted and neutralized because it's important.

I hope that the reports that the Minister is getting from the public hearings that, by the time we get them , are not edited reports . The new Minister of Workers Compensation had made an error and it was just an error, and I understand that. I'm not about to prolong the discussion where he said that the Workers Compensation Report had to be edited. I hope it wasn't a Freudian slip , but I know that the Minister will not be editing the report.

At least, I would suggest very strongly to the Minister , who is sitting right across from me right now, please don't edit the report; let us have a look at the report in its fullest stage . The Minister didn 't give us any idea on other problems that we've got, and I know there really wasn 't that much room in the report where he could have· brought us up-to-date on PCB's and on asbestos. There was a mention of asbestos , but there will have to be possibly a little bit more brought up on the asbestos . The Ministe r made no remarks about radon which I've been reading about .

Well , you know, I've been reading about Saskatchewan , and you know what , through our television here in Winnipeg, we pick up Detroit stations and they have a problem in Detroit with radon gas coming into basements. The Minister has got to bring us up-to-date on how he's protecting our environment against radon gas . I think my leader will be coming in before too long and he has some information on radon and I think that he wanted to ask some questions on radon which we will get to.

The Minister was complimenting his staff and I have to compliment some of his stall too, but -(lnterjection) - 1 said some of his staff , because there has to be - (Interjection)- Come on now, I'm not here to stick a knife into the stall or the Minister . I see what happens where the New Democrats do stick knives into some of their own people . I saw the Chairman of Committees make a small error and I was kind of embarrassed because I thought that whether he was right or wrong, he should have received the support of the . HON. J. COWAN: He did . MR. A. KOVNATS: ..

New Democratic Party because -(Interjection)- Well, I was embarrassed that it never got to that point. I wanted to make a particular reference to some of the stall, Mr. Chairman, where we had a dump location out at Cornwallis that got to a point where it was critical. The staif had allowed this dump location to proceed. It was down to the final stages, and ii the people in 2507

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 the area hadn 't brought it up to my attention and the Minister's attention - I can't take all the credit; I think the Minister can take the credit for acting very quickly when it was brought to his attent ion - but the staff had allowed it to get out of hand, and I think that there has to be some revision in the manner in which these locations do proceed to fruition because thank God : that the Minister was able to put a stop to it at my recommendation and the people's recommendation in the area. We're talking about site locations, site situations. It's • not just these dump locations.

We've got one here in the City of Winnipeg . I think it's in the Minister's : constituency where they're going to be transferring · garbage sites or garbage from trucks .

They do ·; something to it and then they send it on to the dump, · and I don't know too much about it, but it takes place : just down Lagimodiere Blvd. and it's right over a · garbage dump now where the methane gas is coming out and the people were forced out of that area for ,health reasons and now are looking to go back into that area because of some recommendations by some . city environmental groups. , The Minister is going to have to make a decision as to whether he's going to allow it.

Sure, it's a municipal , problem, but it's environment and I think the Minister , has to stand up and say that we are going to do 1 some thing abou t the environment there and at least , investigate. I see one small reference to AIDS which is getting to be one of the greatest problems .

Well, the Minister , made reference to AIDS in his opening remarks . ' (Interject ion)- Yes, it was, because we're talking about . health in the workplace and we've got a critical situation. 11t's a communicable disease; it' s an industrial - I can't say it's an industria l disease , but it is causing us , problems in the workplace, and I think that the Minister , has to come up with some regulations because we've got regulations where people don't have to work where there's a health danger in the workplace. I don't want to cause any panic, but I think that we can't just sit back and wait too much longer .

We've got to come up with some regulations concerning AIDS in the workplace . so as to protect the health in the workplace .- . (Interjection)- I'm going to talk about mosquitoes in ' just a minute . We have health committees and worker safety and health representatives in the workplace and, by and large, it's a beautiful system, and I think the Minister is going to speak on that, but we've got to use professional help to give us some understanding of ' what's happening in the workplace.

Sure we can get ' people who are representatives of the workplace, but it's the professionals who we have to rely on, and these are professionals who don 't just take a very fast training program and then have to be responsible for health in the workplace. I think that we've got to be prepared to act. We were talking about, well, here, taxicab security. We keep jumping back and forward, and I'm almost as much at fault here because I couldn't make up my . mind. I've got one foot on each side of the fence firmly · implanted and I'm just not about to . . . But we do ,have to make a decision on that.

Or is it working with the manner in which we've got, whether it's mandatory? I hope the Minister is going to give us some action on it. These are the responsibilties of being the Ministe r; he has to make a decision .- (Interjection) - That's right , he can't have it both ways. I've made a few remarks, and before I go any further, I want to thank the Minister for giving me hi s introductory speech in advance becaus e it does save the discussion. I would have had to waste some time, so I had a chance to read it. I do thank the Minis ter for all of that.

I had made recommendations to the Minister a year ago concerning painting pipes in different locations with coloured paints to advise what kind of liquids were flowing through pipes in case there was a fire and one of the pipes broke, then you would know exactly what type of materials you were combatting . I got many thank you 's and that it was a good idea, but nothing's ever been done about it. We talked about mine regulations in the past. I think the Minister has tried to do a job, but we brought it to a point where talking about mines inspectors, about how some mines inspectors were chosen .

I hope the Minister is going to be bringing us up-to-date as to what has happened where, in my opinion, the best mines inspector wasn't hired, because I think what had happened is that there was political influence being brought to bear. I wouldn't want to see any of this ever happen where policital influence is brought to bear on any of these things that affect the life, dignity and safety of miners, people in the workplace, you know, down the line.

The Minister indicates that the regulations could have an impact on small businesses, and I wouldn't want to see small businesses be discouraged from coming into the province. We have so many other things that discourage small business from coming into the province, the payroll tax, all kinds of discouraging factors in keeping small business out of the province . I hope the Minister isn't coming up with some regulations that are going to discourage businesses from coming into the province.

If the impact to the environment is going to be detrimental, well absolutely, but there's got to be some encouragement to small businesses . The Minister has got a program on hearing conservation and noise control. It's been in effect for approximately 17 months. I still can't hear out of my left ear. I don't know whether the program is working or not, but I've had problems with my left ear in the past. But you know, something comes up. Are we looking at providing people with damage to their hearing because they are in the workplace?

How does some person like myself go and try to get some Workers Compensation because of the loss of hearing in my left ear? MR. D. SCOTT: That's because you talk too loud . MR. A. KOVNATS: Well, it's not I who talk too loud and I've listened to the things that go on in the House about the yelling and screaming back and forward, and I know that our side does it somewhat also. Our side does it somewhat, but most of it comes from the New Democrats, and I would say that's exactly why I'm able to get my feelings on this one.

The Minister neglected to make any remarks on the mosquito control which he has been in favour of 2508

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 eliminating in the past. I know that, if it was a matter of choice, we would have no control at all for mosquitoes, at least by spring. I was out to my farm the other day, and there has to be some kind of control for mosquitoes in the rural area also. You know, we keep talking and saying only that mosquito control should be in the urban area. Well I'll tell you, they just about drove me crazy when I was out planting, and I think tliat the farmers should be given as much consideration as the city people when it comes to controlling of mosquitoes and other problems .

The Minister also mentioned that we had a scrap metal clean-up in Churchill. This is something he did mention. It cost us $51,500 or at least that was the estimate . Is that the correct figure, $51,500, or has it been increased or reduced? What has happened? I know that the scrap metal was shipped into Selkirk, Manitoba . Was that just given to the people in Selkirk, Manitoba gratis? Were they given a bonus because they were able to take this scrap metal? Have they been able to sell it? Did we, Manitobans, get anything back for our effort of giving them this scrap metal?

Just before I conclude, I think that I would like to bring to the Minister's attention about the soft-drink containers.- (Interjection)- Well it's the aluminum beverage containers . I don't want to make a great big issue of it. I had asked the Minister some questions about it in the House, and the Minister just didn't give me the answers . I guess he didn 't have the answers at the time . He said that the program was for a whole year, but you can't just wait till the end of the year and say that we don't have a good program or we do have a good program . I think it has to be monitored all the way down the line.

The Minister has given me some figures, on page 13 of his remarks, about 283,000 cans have been collected. How many have gone into the environment? I think we're talking about millions, and we've got back 283,000 cans. That's 12,000 pounds; it seems like a drop in the bucket, but I hope the Minister is going to bring us up-to-date on what's happening with these soft drink cans into the environment because it's a big thing . I see where the payment for the aluminum cans is based on the current market value of aluminum. What is going to happen with the plastic bottles that are coming back?

I don't imagine that there's any current market value at all for the plastic - well, could be just a fraction of pennies, but what are we going to do? How are we going to set up a program for plastic containers? What is the payment going to be based on? I hope the Minister is going to give me a ratio of sales to recovery on the aluminum cans. We're talking about pesticides and the permits and the program on pesticides. Well, I think that there's got to be some discussion on that. I know that one of my colleagues is going to be asking some questions on the burning of stubble and the feedlot operation.

I think that has to be answered because we have a problem there, and it's a problem that needs some help. I think that the farmers from the Province of Manitoba need some help in getting rid of their stubble. I know that burning can give them some problems, but there are other ways of getting rid of their stubble . I hope that the Minister is going to give them some assistance in getting rid of that stubble . I think that we're talking about high-level nuclear waste. I don't want to get into too much of that at this point .

The Minis ter just touched on it, I just touched on it, but there has to be some discussion on that. I guess that discussion will come when we get into the bill. But I think that we mustn 't be turning our friends ) against us in some of the conflict. He just finalized it, and I'm just going to finish off , where the Clean Environment Commission will be finalizing its report very shortly. I hope that report will be coming through unedited so that we can see what • the Minister has taken from the report and what he , has rejected from the report.

I think with that - I had made remarks about the Worker Advisor office. I guess that's about what I have . to say on the opening remarks in answer to the Minister's opening remarks . With that, Mr. Minister, I hope that you are around next year at this time when , we go into Estimates again . I don't want to prolong it i because, at this point , I'm going to suggest that I hope that you are around so that we do have some continuity • in what's happening . We've lost the continuity in the . Workers Compensation, but I guess continuity has to : be broken when you have an $84 million deficit. With those remarks, Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the £ Minister to invite his staff and we can proceed . MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, do you want to bring . your staff forward and introduce them? HON. G. LECUYER: Just before you throw it open for : questions -(Interjection)- no, I won't. The member asked , whether I'm going to get even with him now.

He's covered too much ground and, therefore, I am not going \ to cover all of the points that he's raised, and I just · want to touch on some of them, well, in part to get · even with him, yes, or at least to give some answers. : He seemed to be looking for some answers, so I'll at • least provide some explanations . Further I might say that the member raises a lot of points on which I did not comment. Obviously, if I had commented on everything, then I wouldn't have left him anything to ask questions on, and I certainly didn't want to do that. As well, there are many things that are ongoing.

I could certainly have kept members of the committee here till midnight tonight just to cover all activities o: the department. There are countless activities that are ongoing. Because we're a regulatory department, every _ aspect of the department carries on ongoing activities · of inspections and, just in terms of the statistics, I could be providing very extensive replies with a lot of information, but I think that is not the aim of the committee here.

It's basically to provide the information ' that is pertinent, that reflects the major activities or the most major focus of the direction in which we are moving and, as well , to give an opportunity for the· members to ask questions of issues that appear pertinent to them. The member will have an opportunity to ask, and I'm not going to take all of those points that he's raised to reply to them now, because I know he will raise some of those as we move into the Estimates under the prope r section.

But I do want to comment on one particular area which he says with, I expect, some regret that he hasn't got an opportunity to go after me for the compensation 2509 f

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 responsibility . I could chide him for that, but I think perhaps he's troubled because he's got to go after two of us, instead of just one now. i hope that doesn't confuse him . But I also want to add, the fact is I certainly did enjoy the opportunity to respond to questions in that area. The member says, probably I was relieved of the responsibility so that he could not continue to question the current Minister responsible for deficits, which we have chosen to call unfunded liabilities with an explanation as to the difference between the two .

I think that the member knows full well that he can - and he probably will - go after the Minister who 's responsible for the dossier of the Workers Compensation Board . I wish I had the opportunity to respond to whatever questions will be raised on that one.

But the member also knows that, while I had the responsibility for the Compensation Board, I initiated a review of that system, one which had been long in coming and one which I could take the opportunity of chiding his side for not undertaking, even though they had stated a number of times in response to questions in committee that they were going to initiate that particular review . It wasn 't one that was easy to set up. It's one that comes late in time when we consider how long the act has been in force and how long since the last review. I suspect their recommendations will be numerous.

They will be complex in some respects, and it's going to take some major review. Having said that, I also want to add that this year, when the report of the Commission comes forth, there has to be time to deal with that report.

As a Minister responsible for Workplace Safety and Health and the Environment with a number of major initiatives on the drafting board, initiatives which I've referred to in my opening remarks, I think that personally, although I would have liked to be able to carry on with the job and take it to conclusion - because that's the way I like to do things, personally, to be able to complete something I've started - and I would have liked, and I say that in all sincerity to the member, to have that opportunity to complete that job.

I would have liked to be able to sit here today and respond to his questions on that particular one. On the other hand, I'm not alone and others are very capable and I'm sure will do just as good and probably a better job than I could have done, especially with the other responsibilities that I have to currently take to conclusion, and I'm referring to the new Environment Act that is going to be a major task to bring to full implementation. I was talking a while ago about the Hazar dous Waste Management Corporation which is in the · process of being established .

The whole hazardous waste system is not fully established, and the member referred to that, a workplace health regulation which is soon in the process of having to be implemented. So there are major initiatives which we are addressing at the same time on the environment side and on the workplace safety and health side. And it's for those reasons that the Premier chose to relieve me of some of those responsibilities to give me added time to devote to those initiatives. So I give that by way of explanation, and I don't intend to try and defend.

I think it's fairer for the member to zero or focus on the remarks as he's done in that particular regard. Were he to be in my place, I would have done likewise , so I have no problem with that. I am glad to hear that the member, in making reference to the two pieces of legislation that I put on the record - in fact , that I introduced for Seco nd Reading already at this point in time - that he is gene rally supportive of those.

I'm sure that he'll get an opportunity to look more in-depth at the details of those bills but, in the spirit of the necessity for protecting the environment generally, for protecting current and future generations of Manitobans, especially in regard to that very precious treasure which is our environment, one which is so fragile, one which we so often take for granted, one which we have so often in the past abused and degraded, and it is very important that we change our ways, or attitudes and our way of, I suppose, coping with the environment which is vital to our every day survival.

The member has referred to acid rain, and I think I did mention that there was a draft regulation currently undergoing - Clean Environment Commission hearings - and I want you to know that the reference in there to the Federal Government was not at all passing the buck, because I've said that we will take that responsibility as a province.

We have made that commitment as a province; we have signed that agreement, because we wanted to make that commitment as a province, in cooperation with the other six provinces east of us, to limit our sulphur dioxide emissions which eventually cause acid rain or one of the factors that cause acid rain. We believe and we accept the fact that we as a province do not live in a vacuum where we are part of a global society and air emissions are part of a global problem and we want to share into the solution.

So that is why we have signed an agreement; we will assume our responsibilities under that agreement and I want the member to know that. While I'm touching on the Clean Environment Commission, the member perhaps rightly referenced the fact - and perhaps that's for a lack of understanding of the role of the Clean Environment Commission and the environment - that, when the commission holds hearings, the department makes presentations to the commission and the member says that the Minister has to make decisions.

I want to assure the member that the commission, when it holds hearings, is open to receiving submissions from all sectors, from the other departments even. So we make submissions to the Clean Environment Commission because not to do so would be like to say we have no views on an environmental issue. We do have views; we have expertise and, when we make presentations to the Clean Environment Commission , I'm sure that it is welcome on their part. I'm sure they take it into consideration, as well as all the other submissions that are made to them before they consider this and sit down to make recommendations.

When the recommendations are made, they're not always recommendations. Very frequently, these are reflected on an order which is made on an operation. The Clean Environment Commission will say, on the basis of those hearings, here is the order, or we choose to vary an order or we choose not to vary an order, and the recommendations would be in line with that. Then the Minister will have to deal with that report and we do. 2510

Thursday, 28 May, 1987 I refer again now to some of the things that the member commented on last year and I don't want to touch upon these unless he asks questions very specifically . The member said last year, at the very opening of his remarks , and to a certain extent I agree with it, that he doesn 't want to hear vaguenesses like monitoring feasibility studies, etc.; we'll look at it. I know what he means but, on the other hand, I want to·again·repeat to him, monitoring is an ongoing activity. It's an activity of taking count of actual emissions, of actual effluents, and the word "monitoring" means that.

Feasibility studies, on the other hand , are something that has to be done very often before you make a decision , but once you have that information you can make a decision. The member referred to such things as the mines inspection . I don 't intend to comment on that because that was raised last year, that was raised the year before . I provided answers and assured him that the best person had been hired and that's the answer I have for him now. Churchill Scrap Metal - the member says, what benefit did we get? Well, we cleaned an environment. We provided benefits to Manitobans in that community .

Perhaps we had nothing to do, as a government, as individuals presently making those decisions, with the problem that is there. The fact is, there is a problem and we say that, and increasingly in the future, we're going to have to consider how we can reuse the wastes of the resources that we exploit, because we're going to run out of them and , because there are gains to be made, there are savings to be made in producing new products from the wastes of products that we have used. We cannot continue to use resources and then throw into our landfills, ·especially when these still have reuseable value .

This was an example, to transport, to get this waste metal out of the Community of Churchill is a costly proposition. Most of this stuff was there because it was part of a defence operation in the past. We thought that the Federal Government should assume the full responsibility for removing it because of that. Maybe eventually we could have prevailed, we couldn't at the time, so we decided that we would offer to cooperate with them. On that basis , they said they would go along with that and we cost-shared that proposal. It cost money to transport that stuff and to get it out.

The company that did it eventually, probably got some revenues, but probably did not make undue profit because the amounts we paid were to cover the retrieval and transportation, so they were not part of the profits per se. Mosquito control - the member knows my views, but if he says, we have to start controlling mosquitoes in the rural areas as well as in the city, he's proposing something of a gigantic proportion .

I have to say on that one - and it's not facetious at all, it might sound funny - I have to say to him , he better start doing what I did last weekend, start building bird cages and hanging them up there so the birds can eat some of those mosquitoes. MR. A. KOVNATS: They 're eating my tomatoes now. HON. J. STORIE: The birds or the mosquitoes? HON. G. LECUYER: They're not eating the tomatoes, they're eating you while you're planting your mosquitoes (sic) . But as I say, you have to find ways of controllin g them without putting in danger our environment.

I guess I will stop here in terms of a response because I know the member will want to ask specific questions. Just one final statement, I think the membe r referenced the fact that the consultation process, and I don't know if the member did not get a copy of the report from our consultation process on the new Environment Act. That report was made available to all those who attended the hearings with a covering letter from me and ii covers basically all that was said at those hearings . If the member did not get a copy of it, I would like to pass a copy at this present time .

A MEMBER: He said he was planting mosquitoes , he was planting tomatoes. A MEMBER: I know. HON. G. LECUYER: One small correction , Mr. Chairman , that might also be.of interest to the member . In the final analysis, the actual cost of the Churchill scrap removal ended up costing us 42 versus the ( amount that was originally prov ided of 51, because we had overestimated the actual costs and it ended up being 42. MR. A.

KOVNATS: One more question before we proceed then , did we get anything back from the - I think the company was in Selkirk , Manitoba that the material was sent to - did we get anything back or did we just give it to them gratis? Here, help yourself . Whoever gave it to them, did they get any special considerations for giving them this material? HON. G. LECUYER: In response to that, to details on that particular issue of Churchill Scrap Metal, as I told the member some time last year already, this was a tendered contract and the company actually had to put in a lot of money to do that job.

All we did was actually subsidize the transport of the scrap metal to Selkirk . If the price of metal were to go up, there 's a very remote possibility that those costs would still be further reduced . By the time they finalize the recycling of that metal , we get better prices for it than originally estimated. That cc.st that I indicated might still be further reduced, but there's only a remote chance of that happening . As the member . knows full well, the world market for metals has not been the best in the last couple of years .

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-2-57
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 2nd hansardpdf 57.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	60d13467fcf98c560d13b872f7d6a05d2ac2dbe6

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